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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to Kadokin here. I'm Andrew Siege. I'm

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Speaker 3: on andre'sm on YouTube, and I'm not on YouTube right now.

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Speaker 3: I'm on kak here, and I'm joined by the disembodied

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Speaker 3: voice of the one in.

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Speaker 4: Orny Garrison Davis.

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Speaker 5: Yes, well one and only that I know of, unless

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Speaker 5: there's another one going around, which would be creaky.

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Speaker 1: That might be. That might be.

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Speaker 3: But see, I want to continue our journey through Latin

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Speaker 3: americanicisms and their histories. Now, compared to all the other

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Speaker 3: countries I've discussed so far, such as Peru and Chile

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Speaker 3: and Argentina and Brazil and Cuba, this one had a

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Speaker 3: bit less information about anarchism in its past, So this

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Speaker 3: will be a sort of a smaller sangwiche and anarchist

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Speaker 3: history perhaps fit in of the country that is sandwiched

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Speaker 3: between Argentina and Brazil. Speaking of course, about Paraguay, known

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Speaker 3: for its fraud history of warfare, politically volatile landscape, series

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Speaker 3: of dictatorships, and indigenously intertwined cultural and social fabric, anarchism

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Speaker 3: took root in this rather unique setting, and downs to

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Speaker 3: the work of Anhill Capelletti and a few other scattered sources,

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Speaker 3: I've been able to piece together the history of anarchism

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Speaker 3: in Paraguay without further ado nos comencemos. For much of

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Speaker 3: its early history, Paraguay's identity was distinct within South America,

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Speaker 3: from its time as a Guarani settlement to its formation

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Speaker 3: as a Spanish colony in the sixteenth century. Spanish Jesuit

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Speaker 3: missionaries wielded significant influence, and for over a century Paraguay

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Speaker 3: was a self sustained colony with a rigidly hierarchical system

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Speaker 3: based on the Spanish castor system. Paraguay's economy primarily revolved

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Speaker 3: around agriculture and cattlehooded unlike the mining economies and other

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Speaker 3: Spanish territories. The Guarani people had a significant cultural impact

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Speaker 3: throughout Paraguay's history, and their language and traditions rained central

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Speaker 3: even as Paraguay evolved through the centuries. Even today, most

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Speaker 3: of the population speaks some variety of Guarani alongside Spanish.

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Speaker 3: Fast forward to the early nineteenth century, as South American

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Speaker 3: nations began de clearing independence from Spain, Paraguay took a

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Speaker 3: unique approach. Rather than aligning with the neighboring revolutionary movements, Paraguay,

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Speaker 3: under the leadership of Jose Gasparrodriguez dev Definancia, declared independence

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Speaker 3: in eighteen eleven and adopted an isolationist authoritarian path. Francia

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Speaker 3: ruled as the country's spreme dictator for nearly three decades,

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Speaker 3: envisioning a self sufficient, cometic society. He strictly controlled foreign influences,

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Speaker 3: banned European migration, and restricted trade. By the mid nineteenth century,

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Speaker 3: Paraguay had built up a significancy infrastructure under Francia's successor,

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Speaker 3: Carlos Antonio Lopez. However, this era of economic development was

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Speaker 3: short lived, as Paraguay entered the catastrophic War of the

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Speaker 3: Triple Alliance between eighteen sixty four and eighteen seventy against Brazil.

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Speaker 3: Argentina and Uruguay over territorial disputes. This conflict proved disastrous

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Speaker 3: for Paraguay as they suffered staggering losses. Nearly seventy percent

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Speaker 3: of its population died, its economy was shattered, and its

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Speaker 3: territory was significantly reduced. And yes, you heard me right,

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Speaker 3: nearly seventy percent of its population perished, including most of

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Speaker 3: its male population, in the wars. Aftermath, paragua I was

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Speaker 3: plunged into political chaos, economic ruin, and a period of

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Speaker 3: foreign interventions. Due to the economic devastation of the war,

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Speaker 3: the country became indebted to British creditors. With that leverage,

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Speaker 3: Britain pushed for the development of a free market economy

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Speaker 3: and privatization, which brought Paraguay into closer contact with the

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Speaker 3: global economy and eventually led to a more pronounced class

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Speaker 3: divide and establishment of an exploitive agricultural exports system. Land

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Speaker 3: that had once been communitly managed was swiftly privatized, driving

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Speaker 3: indigenous communities and small farmers off their lands and into

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Speaker 3: the workforce of larger estates. On those estates, workers would

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Speaker 3: find themselves in debt bondage tied to the estates as

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Speaker 3: small debts at workers over to landowners, with spiral into

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Speaker 3: insurmountable debts that would become nearly impossible to repay. Laborers

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Speaker 3: called pionees, were typically paid in voltures or script that

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Speaker 3: could only be redeemed at the estate's store, where prices

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Speaker 3: were exorbitantly inflated. Any attempt to leave or challenge the

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Speaker 3: condition was met with violent repercussions from estate managers, creating

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Speaker 3: a cycle of economic entrapment that was essentially slavery by

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Speaker 3: another name. Paraguay became a country of ever more wealthy

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Speaker 3: and powerful landowners with a struggle in rural working class.

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Speaker 3: As twentieth century approached, the labour struggles and social divisions

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Speaker 3: then Paraguay and society were clearing. Cron inequality. Explosive working conditions,

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Speaker 3: and the dislocation of addious communities created footire ground for

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Speaker 3: radical ideas among rural campusinos and urban workers. European immigrants

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Speaker 3: flee in political oppression brought with them some rather radical

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Speaker 3: ideas that began to resonate with paragund workers who were

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Speaker 3: desperate for a way out of their circumstances. For people

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Speaker 3: who had survived centuries of oppression, and authoritarian rule. Anarchism

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Speaker 3: had a unique appeal. By the eighteen eighties, workers in

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Speaker 3: Paraguay had become organized in mutual aid societies, and one

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Speaker 3: such society of typographers would organize themselves into a union,

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Speaker 3: the first in the country's history. By eighteen eighty six.

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Speaker 3: That same year, so the rise of construction workers, carpenters, tailors,

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Speaker 3: postal workers.

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Speaker 1: And bakers unions.

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Speaker 3: Those Bakers Roles conduct countries first ever strike action in

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Speaker 3: October of eighteen eighty six. The first distinctly anarchist publication

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Speaker 3: I could find in Paraguay was organized by a group

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Speaker 3: called those eCos del Chaco, who published a libertarian manifesto

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Speaker 3: in eighteen ninety two. They call themselves anarchist communists and

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Speaker 3: declare their intent to abolish private property, the clergy, the state,

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Speaker 3: and the armed forces.

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Speaker 1: Quote.

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Speaker 3: We seek the complete emancipation of the proletariat as we

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Speaker 3: fight abolished the unjust exportation of man by man. We

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Speaker 3: dedicate all of our moral and physical strength to overturn

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Speaker 3: all attorneys established genuine liberty, equality and fraternity in the

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Speaker 3: human family. We needs to transform private property into a

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Speaker 3: common good. We needed to do so because individual property

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Speaker 3: is a basic cause of all these afflictors. It is

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Speaker 3: on that basis that the dregs of humanity, government, clerics, lawyers, militaries,

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Speaker 3: entrepreneurs maintain themselves in power, live as parasites, and they

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Speaker 3: continued enjoyment to their funder of finances large armies with

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Speaker 3: the products.

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Speaker 1: Of our labor end court.

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Speaker 3: Even prior to that manifesto, anarchists were making moves in

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Speaker 3: the Graphic, Railway and bakers unions as early as eighteen

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Speaker 3: eighty nine, fighting for and win in the eight hour

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Speaker 3: workday by nineteen oh one. Strike actions in this period

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Speaker 3: were focused on that goal, alongside wage increases and then

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Speaker 3: improvements to working conditions. The anarchists also tried to establish

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Speaker 3: a national Trade union center, but unfortunately did not succeed.

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Speaker 3: In eighteen ninety two, thanks in part to the growing

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Speaker 3: Spanish and Argentine immigrant populations, there was a wave of

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Speaker 3: the Berterian union formation throughout Paraguay. The anarchists was quite

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Speaker 3: successful among the peasantry, as they helped organize armed resistance

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Speaker 3: societies to aid in their struggles against the landowners. Anarchists

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Speaker 3: also managed to establish Raphael Barrett Cultural Center in the

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Speaker 3: early nineties hosting an impressed collection of books by fellow

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Speaker 3: Paraguayan and foreign writers, and embolding in the formation and

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Speaker 3: even more trade unions. Raphael Barrett, by the way, is

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Speaker 3: one of the most significant figures in Paraguay and anarchist history,

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Speaker 3: according to every account I've read. Born in Toda Vega, Spain,

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Speaker 3: in eighteen seventy six, but Thatt's early life was typical

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Speaker 3: of a well to do intellectual. He studied languages, piano,

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Speaker 3: and eventually engineering. By his late twenties, he was drawn

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Speaker 3: to Latin America, partly by adventure and partly to make

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Speaker 3: a difference. Driven by a growing commitment to justice and solidarity,

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Speaker 3: he arrived in Budas Airis in nineteen oh three, where

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Speaker 3: he found work as a journalist, soon making ways with

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Speaker 3: an article that condemned the stock inequality he observed in

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Speaker 3: Argentina's capital. This critique cost him his job, yet had

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Speaker 3: deepened his dedication to speak for those who were voiceless.

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Speaker 3: But as experiences of CEA and European Americrant workers toiling

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Speaker 3: in the brutal conditions fueled his indignation against unchecked wealth

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Speaker 3: and poverty's vicious hold on the working class. In nineteen

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Speaker 3: oh four, but I made a way to Paraguay. He

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Speaker 3: essentially welcomed as a correspondent for LTMBO and even held

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Speaker 3: government positions, including as a director of the Department of

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Speaker 3: Engineers and the Railroad Agency. But his comitments, exposed in

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Speaker 3: the country's political and social rot soon put him at

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Speaker 3: odds with Paraguay's new liberal government. He saw that simply

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Speaker 3: swapping our conservative leaders for liberals did little to improve

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Speaker 3: conditions for ordinary Paraguayans, as demonstrated by the continuous labor

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Speaker 3: struggles that arose and response to the industrialization undertaken by the

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Speaker 3: liberal government. Workers were fighting to abolished child label, improve

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Speaker 3: their conditions, increase wages, and so on. He couldn't stand

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Speaker 3: by in silence, so he resigned from government service, now

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Speaker 3: fully committed to social justice, even as his grown radicalism

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Speaker 3: began to alienate the political elite. Brett's personal experiences sharpened

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Speaker 3: his perspective, transformed him from a sympathetic observer to a

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Speaker 3: dedicated anarchist. His writings in Criminal became essential reading for

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Speaker 3: workers and peasants alike, urging them to see beyond two

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Speaker 3: professional reforms and to child the entire structure of pressure,

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Speaker 3: Barrett condemned the government's abuses and spoke out against exploitive

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Speaker 3: systems that kept the majority of Paraguayan's martialized. He was

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Speaker 3: a fiery advocate for social justice, and one write in particular,

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Speaker 3: Acasto Roa Bastos, called him the discoverer of Paraguayan's social reality,

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Speaker 3: because Burrett didn't just observe these injustices, he threw himself

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Speaker 3: into exposing and condemned them with fuvor. His impact was

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Speaker 3: so significant that even when he was forced to flee

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Speaker 3: Paraguay in nineteen oh eight under government pressure, his ideas endured.

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Speaker 3: His health was deteriorating from tibergulosis, where he continued to write,

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Speaker 3: receiving support from intellectual comrades in Uruguay and Brazil. His

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Speaker 3: final years were just a continuation if his relentless dedication,

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Speaker 3: even as his health continued to decline. In nineteen ten,

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Speaker 3: he went to Paris to seek treatment, but his health

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Speaker 3: failed and he passed away in December of that year.

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Speaker 3: But just before Barret's exile and passing in nineteen oh six,

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Speaker 3: the anarchists would form the first and for some time

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Speaker 3: only workers Federation in the country by joining together the illustrators,

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Speaker 3: carpenters and drivers unions. Rafaelberad actually became something of a

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Speaker 3: thought leader for this group, and this was the Federacion

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Speaker 3: Opreia Astricanal Paraguay or four, partially inspired by the Federacion

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Speaker 3: Obrera Reginal Argentina or FURA, where they borrowed many of

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Speaker 3: their programmatic ideas. If you recall the episodes I did

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Speaker 3: on Argentina, you know that the reasoning for the name

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Speaker 3: was ideological. By adding the adjective regional, it made plain

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Speaker 3: that the country in question, whether Paraguay or Argentina, was

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Speaker 3: not being considered a state or political unit, but a

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Speaker 3: region of the world in which workers struggled for their liberation.

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Speaker 3: Soon after its founding, on the first of May nineteen

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Speaker 3: oh six, the Fourth held the country's first international Workers

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Speaker 3: Data demonstration, despite police attempts to shut it down. For

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Speaker 3: also launched their official publication, El Espertade in the same year,

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Speaker 3: and the paper carried articles what the anarchist movements in

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Speaker 3: Europe and Latin America. Printed works by authors such as

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Speaker 3: Peter Kopotkin and Selmo Ronzo published reports of the Forbes

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Speaker 3: activities named and shamed and known strike breakers and encouraged

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Speaker 3: its members to pay their union dues promptly. Subsequent years

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Speaker 3: would introduce other libertarian newspapers such as Ladra Billion, La

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Speaker 3: Tribuna and Acil Futuro. After the nineteen oh eight coup

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Speaker 3: by Emiliano Gonsalves Naverro, they stabilized the economy and restricted

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Speaker 3: Assuncion's labor movement. Anarchism still found strength among rural and

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Speaker 3: tanan industry workers, despite increasing hostility from figures like Presidents

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Speaker 3: Condre and Jarre. Labor strikes continued, which were met by

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Speaker 3: fierce repression, arrests, and forced deportations. With the outbreak of

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Speaker 3: the Paraguay and Civil War from nineteen eleven to nineteen twelve,

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Speaker 3: anarchists and other labor organizations faced a government crackdown. Groups

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Speaker 3: like the Four became inactive temporarily, at least by nineteen thirteen.

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Speaker 3: In the wake of the war, a schism was emergent

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Speaker 3: as some unions move move toward reformist ideologies, influencing part

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Speaker 3: by the populist Colorado Party. Meanwhile, Four reaffirmed anarchosynicalist routes,

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Speaker 3: forming a federal council that included both workers and intellectuals

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Speaker 3: aimant rekondelte union activities. Amidst a wave of reorganization post

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Speaker 3: World War One, a new surgeon demand for Paraguay and

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Speaker 3: exports revitalized labor activism. In nineteen sixteen, the Corps or

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Speaker 3: Centro Obero Regionale de Paraguay to call the role of

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Speaker 3: championing anarchosyndicalism and labor rights. This one gained support from

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Speaker 3: a wide network, launching influential publications like El Combat and Renovasion.

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Speaker 3: Other groups like Comedie and the Revolutionary Nationalists Alliance, which

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Speaker 3: sought a federalist union Other People's Latin America also took

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Speaker 3: part in the resurgions of anarchist ideas. In nineteen twenty two,

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Speaker 3: the Paraguay and Anarchists were able to finally establish links

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Speaker 3: with the International Workers Association.

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Speaker 1: By the nineteen.

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Speaker 3: Thirties, Syriaco Puarte emerged as a prominent voice cat and

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Speaker 3: for Workers Rise. Despite you Know Everything, he was a

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Speaker 3: protege of fellow anarchists and printmaker Felix Kantalisio Aracuyu, a

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Speaker 3: Paraguay and Mestizo of mixed indigenous and black ancestry. At

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Speaker 3: one point Arakuyu and his comrades had helped organize a

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Speaker 3: tram workers strike in Asuncion, which compelled the government to

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Speaker 3: round them up and dump them in the middle of

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Speaker 3: the jungle in Mato Grosso, hoping that they would die

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Speaker 3: and had. Arakuyu and his friends made their way through

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Speaker 3: over one thousand, three hundred kilometers of mountain jungle, surviving

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Speaker 3: on roots, fruits, and game, to make their way back

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Speaker 3: to their hometown of Incarnacion and speaking of Incarnacion both

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Speaker 3: to our day and Arakuyu took part in the little

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Speaker 3: known attempt at an anarchist uprising in Paraguay, which was

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Speaker 3: actually centered in Incarnacion. On the twentieth of February nineteen

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Speaker 3: thirty one, a group of one hundred and fifty workers

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Speaker 3: and students organized in a couple of popular assemblies, took

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Speaker 3: control of the city of Incarnacion with the goal of

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Speaker 3: establishing a libertarian commune, part of a plan to spark

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Speaker 3: a wider anarchist cynicalist revolution in Paraguay. This was the

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Speaker 3: culmination of a series of strikes and widespread lya Latin

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Speaker 3: by anarchists and students in support of revolution. It wasn't

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Speaker 3: meant to be centered in the Karnacion, as there was

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Speaker 3: a planned construction worker at Donald striking and student Zion,

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Speaker 3: and similar action in Villarica and Concepcion, but key organizers

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Speaker 3: in those struggles in those cities were deported in the

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Speaker 3: days leading up to the action, so those planned actions

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Speaker 3: ended up failing. After sixteen hours when their efforts to

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Speaker 3: have reinforced by workers in the rest of the nation,

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Speaker 3: the interactionists of Encarnacion took over two steamboats and made

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Speaker 3: their way along the river to Brazil, but not before

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Speaker 3: they attacked the Yuromatic companies and burned the records related

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Speaker 3: to indentured laborers in two ports. Their solidarity never died,

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Speaker 3: even after they went through everything they went through, they

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Speaker 3: didn't lose their sight and what really mattered. Sadly, the

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Speaker 3: seventeen students and workers who remained in Incarnacion were arrested.

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Speaker 3: Duarte found himself jailed and interned and Marcurita Ireland. After

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Speaker 3: Liberal Party president josse P Gugiari outlawded tree unions, other

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Speaker 3: revolutionaries were dropped off from the jungle to die at

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Speaker 3: a random point along the Parana River. Seven of the

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Speaker 3: captured seventeen met this fate and the other ten spent

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Speaker 3: a few months in prison before being deported to Argentina.

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Speaker 3: Movement then faced distinct challenges during the Chako War from

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Speaker 3: nineteen thirty two to nineteen thirty five between Paraguay and Bolivia,

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Speaker 3: which halted much of the anarchist activism. Many anarchists joined

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Speaker 3: the war effort reluctantly, including Duarte, who performed duties in

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Speaker 3: the Rear Guard were working as a type settle for

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Speaker 3: various presses, including anarchist pressors the Paraguay and Victory. Following

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Speaker 3: the war, the return to domestic concerns saw a resurgence

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Speaker 3: of anarchists and labor activities. The government's crackdown of lefterc

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Speaker 3: ideologies in the late nineteen thirties nineteen forties under President

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Speaker 3: Morignigo's rule led to severe repression of anarchists and cynicalist groups.

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Speaker 3: Douart has spent some time as a worker representative at

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Speaker 3: the National Labor Department or DNT, who was under considerable

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Speaker 3: fire from the communists were taken hold of the Treading

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Speaker 3: movement after anarchism waned in popularity. He finally resigned from

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Speaker 3: his post in nineteen forty one after a Worker's Coordinating

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Speaker 3: committee of seamen, tram workers, bakers, print workers, and other

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Speaker 3: trades issued a protest note to President Morinigo, threatening to

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Speaker 3: withdraw from the Workers Delegate for the infringements of their

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Speaker 3: rights of assembly, to unionize and to strike. Of course,

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Speaker 3: their protest note was completely ignored. The president's authoritarian tenure

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Speaker 3: pushed several anarchists and socialist organizers into exile. Duarte himself

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Speaker 3: ended up in exile in Argentina by nineteen forty two,

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Speaker 3: but eventually was able to retain and reclaim his appointment

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Speaker 3: as a worker representative. Then, not long after, he became

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Speaker 3: a victim of a police crackdown during the nineteen forty

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Speaker 3: four general strike, after labor movement was hijacked by the

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Speaker 3: Republican Workers Organization. After nineteen forty seven, Duerte dropped out

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Speaker 3: of trade union activity entirely and refocused to publishing articles

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Speaker 3: and trade union publications abroad and urgent research into Paraguay

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Speaker 3: and trade union history. He faced repeated arrests and took

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Speaker 3: part in strikes anyway, advocating for workers' rights across various industries.

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Speaker 3: He continued his activism against fascism and authoritarianism, operating from

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Speaker 3: Argentina at times, while still supporting strikes and anarchist literature.

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Speaker 3: In Paraguay, the nineteen fifty four ascension to power of

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Speaker 3: General Alfredo Storoister marked a significant period of intensified authoritarianism.

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Speaker 3: Streuisner's regime violently suppressed opposition, including anarchists, for over three decades,

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Speaker 3: even in his seventy years. During the nineteen seventy years,

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Speaker 3: Duarte was harassed by Strausner's secret police. Many other artists

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Speaker 3: were imprisoned, exiled, or dissip by Stuisner, who imposed tight

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Speaker 3: control of unions and labor organizers. The nineteen fifty four

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Speaker 3: to nineteen eighty nine dictatorship of Storisner stifled anarchist activities

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Speaker 3: severely and forced them underground, where they would have to

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Speaker 3: preserve anarchist literature and ideas through secret print publications and

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Speaker 3: solidarity movements. The result of this dictatorship was that anarchism

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Speaker 3: in Paraguay experienced resurgence much later than other Latin American nations,

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Speaker 3: with the spark rekindled only in the early two thousands.

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Speaker 3: This rebooth of anarchist sentiment emerged largely within the punk

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Speaker 3: counterculture and youth led social movements often interconnected with struggles

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Speaker 3: for condigious rights, economic justice, and environmental causes. The establishment

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Speaker 3: of spaces like Laterraza and Anarchist Squad provided platforms for

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Speaker 3: activists and community engagement, while publications such as Autonomia Zene

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Speaker 3: and Grito Fanzine disseminated anarchist ideals despite Paraguay's history of

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Speaker 3: anarchist repression. These newer movements, however, small, signified some small

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Speaker 3: for a renewed interest in the material ideas within Paraguay,

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Speaker 3: one that can be seen even more violently in other

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Speaker 3: parts of Latin America. Paraguay and anarchists have shown us

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Speaker 3: the drive for freedom and equality is a daily equipment

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Speaker 3: to defy attorney and resist exploitation. That's by facing decades

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Speaker 3: of silence and the destroyerst dictatorship. Anarchism did not disappear.

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Speaker 3: The seeds of resistance late dormant, but they are ready

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Speaker 3: to bloom again as new generations can take up the struggle.

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Speaker 3: As we conclude, let's remember the words of Raphael Barre,

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Speaker 3: who fought tirelesslie for the people. He came to call

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Speaker 3: his own justice, justice above all things, justice, even if

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Speaker 3: it costs blood or power to old the people.

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Speaker 6: This Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's me

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Speaker 6: James today and I'm joined by Danny. Danny's an engineering

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Speaker 6: photographer who lived in North East Syria from twenty eighteen

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Speaker 6: until twenty twenty three and a founding member of the Rise,

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Speaker 6: which is the Rajarva Information Center if you're not familiar,

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Speaker 6: and she worked for self administration and civil engineering while

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Speaker 6: she was there. Welcome to show Danny.

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Speaker 7: Hi James, it's really good to be on.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, Jas, thanks thanks for coming. I know it's like

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Speaker 6: a stressful time. So what I thought we would do

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Speaker 6: is there's been a lot of reporting on Syria that

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Speaker 6: people have probably seen if they're living in the US

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Speaker 6: or the UK. Nearly all of it has either excluded

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Speaker 6: or like footnoted what's happening in North and East Syria

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Speaker 6: and specifically in the areas that are under a self administration.

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Speaker 6: So I was hoping today we could give people a

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Speaker 6: little more introduction to what's happening there. There's been a

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Speaker 6: lot of like jubilation about what's happening in Syria, and

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Speaker 6: things have been very far from universally positive. Massive displacement

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Speaker 6: of civilians, ethnic cleansing of areas that have been captured

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Speaker 6: by the Turkish Baksterian National Army and genuine like peril

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Speaker 6: for the self administration project, the like of which we

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Speaker 6: haven't seen for a long time. So perhaps if listeners

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Speaker 6: aren't familiar, would you like give them the real basics

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Speaker 6: of the self administration of the AA ANDES and what

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Speaker 6: it means and what's going on there.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, well that's a big question because it's like it's

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Speaker 8: a big project.

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Speaker 7: It's been going on for quite some time. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 7: it really has.

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Speaker 8: It's kind of been lost in discussions and news about

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Speaker 8: the Serian Civil War because it has been such a complex,

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Speaker 8: multi polar, multi access, multi ethnic conflict, and it's been

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Speaker 8: going on for what like thirteen fourteen years now, Yeah,

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Speaker 8: coming up to fourteen years. The Kurds in the northeast

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Speaker 8: had been preparing for some time before the outbreak of

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Speaker 8: civil war back in twenty eleven for something like this.

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Speaker 8: Obviously they didn't they didn't know this was going to happen,

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Speaker 8: but they had been working on revolutionary emancipation for decades,

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Speaker 8: and in particular since around two thousand, they've been working

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Speaker 8: on this concept of democratic con federalism, which is moving

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Speaker 8: away from a sort of what they call an old

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Speaker 8: paradigm of Marxist Leninist thought to this system they've now

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Speaker 8: quite effectively built up there where democracy is bottom up.

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Speaker 8: It's structured around small communes and self organizing units, cooperatives.

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Speaker 8: There's a market economy, but it's not a catalyst economy

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Speaker 8: where there's sort of radical emancipation of oppressed to people's

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Speaker 8: particular women who are really centered in the revolutionary process

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Speaker 8: and organizing there. And I think because they maybe you

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Speaker 8: can't call them conflict.

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Speaker 7: Avoided, that they haven't avoided conflict.

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Speaker 8: They very famously defeated ISIS amongst other groups in the northeast,

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Speaker 8: they fought against Blanders, Refront and various other jihadi groups.

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Speaker 8: They also didn't enter into serious conflict with either their

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Speaker 8: FSA as they were, or the regime and the Assad regime,

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Speaker 8: and so they kind of managed to carve out a

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Speaker 8: sort of democratic and semi enclave. I mean people who

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Speaker 8: describe it as a state that they quite vehemently say

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Speaker 8: it's not a state in the northeast of Syria. Whilst

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Speaker 8: the worst of the fighting was between the Aussid regime

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Speaker 8: and the FSA and groups that came out of the

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Speaker 8: FSA in the west and south of the country.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's very good summary. I think like

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Speaker 6: it gets missed maybe because of how relatively successful it's

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Speaker 6: been compared to other democratization projects within Syria. It gets

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Speaker 6: missed that like when people are talking about what will

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Speaker 6: happen in Syria now bizarrely and I don't quite like

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Speaker 6: I don't quite understand how we get here, but people

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Speaker 6: seem to go to like Libya or I understand how

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Speaker 6: we get here and through process like orientalism and ignorance,

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Speaker 6: but we have a functioning democracy. An example of like,

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Speaker 6: it's not just Kurdish people, right, it's lots of communities

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Speaker 6: living together in northern East Syria, and because of democratic

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Speaker 6: confederalism they're able to coexist and still feel that they

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Speaker 6: have enough sovereignty to be safe.

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Speaker 4: Is that fair?

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Speaker 7: Yeah? Yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 8: And I think something that it's hard to convey or

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Speaker 8: fully understand unless you spend a lot of time there

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Speaker 8: or you're deeply involved with any of these communities.

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Speaker 7: Is quite how hard that was to do.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, a lot of different ethnic groups, political groups that

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Speaker 8: hate each other, you know. Yeah, the Kurds they brought

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Speaker 8: in lots of different policies, like their right to be

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Speaker 8: taught in your mother tongue. When they took power twenty

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Speaker 8: twelve onwards, they were very keen not to just sort

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Speaker 8: of replace everything with Kurdish, make a Kurdish state, you know,

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Speaker 8: start being the oppressor and sort of be oppressed. They

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Speaker 8: made sure that they continue using Arabic as the majority

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Speaker 8: language because it is the majority language. That the north

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Speaker 8: and east of Syria is still an Arab majority area,

425
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 8: and this is despite the fact that they've been pretty

426
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 8: horrendously oppressed by the Arab population through the Bath Party

427
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 8: and its oppressive systems for decades. So it has been

428
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 8: a pretty hard ongoing process to negotiate and to put

429
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 8: aside pretty serious conflicts between quite.

430
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 7: A few different groups that exist there.

431
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, it won't be any easier of across the whole

432
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 6: country than it was there, but like, they have a

433
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 6: system that works, and it's kind of frustrating to see

434
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 6: these discussions of what happens next that just ignore the

435
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 6: fact that there's a functioning multi ethnic democracy right there.

436
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 6: If we do just look at women's liberation, you know,

437
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 6: I've reported from lots of places around the world, lots

438
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 6: of places in that part of the world, and the

439
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 6: difference is profound in like everyday life. It's not just

440
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 6: a kind of rhetorical commitment, right, Like, at least my

441
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 6: impression as a man is that, like, this is a

442
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 6: revolution by women, not a revolution and it's about women.

443
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 6: It's not a revolution by men that like seeks to

444
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 6: liberate women, says it's going to liberate women, you know,

445
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 6: with the US in Verde Afghanistan saying it's going to

446
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 6: liberate women, and look what we got, And like the

447
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 6: difference in just the way people are able to look,

448
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 6: like every aspect of everyday life is completely different. But

449
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 6: that's in danger right now. The narrative I guess that

450
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 6: people will be familiar with from Syria is that the

451
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 6: state has been defeated, the A Sad regime has been defeated,

452
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 6: and that therefore the revolution has succeeded. But the A

453
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 6: Sad regime is not the only state in play in Syria, right, So,

454
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 6: can you explain the Turkish antipathy to the project in

455
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 6: northern East Syria and how that's manifesting itself currently.

456
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's it's pretty hard to discuss any of the

457
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 8: stuff without talking about Turkey and without understanding where they're

458
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 8: coming from. Yeah, I think it's it's something that is

459
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 8: said enough or understood enough that the modern state of

460
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 8: Turkey is an nationalist project. And you know, I don't

461
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 8: say that as a slur. That's like a basic founding

462
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 8: principle of the state. It's a state founded on genocide

463
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 8: and the mass four demographic change across the whole country,

464
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 8: and it's continued that way. There have been reforms, for sure,

465
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 8: but that's still a founding principle. And even now sort

466
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 8: of speaking a non Turkish language in the Turkish Parliament

467
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 8: is a pretty serious violation. And the size of Turkey,

468
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 8: the size of its economy, the size of its military,

469
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 8: the regional power stages they have in the Middle East,

470
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 8: means that they have an enormous gravity.

471
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 7: They have an enormous amount of power over Syria.

472
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 8: A lot of the goods and services that Syria relies

473
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 8: on coming through Turkey or rely on on the Turkish industry,

474
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 8: and the Turkish military is a huge supporter of their

475
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 8: groups in the Northwest like Acham and the Syrian National Army,

476
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 8: and of course the Kurdish question within Turkey is the

477
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 8: main reason for their antipathy towards the what's been built

478
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 8: up in North Eastyria as much as the self determination

479
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 8: for oppressed people's minorities is something that's an issue. The

480
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 8: fact that it's Kurdish led, and in particular it's emancipat

481
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 8: for Kurdish people threatens this ethno nationalist aspect of their state,

482
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 8: and they kind of they see it something that needs

483
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 8: to be nicked in the Bud right, and they've sort

484
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 8: of done that with Northern Iraq, that the Kurdish region

485
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 8: of Northern Iraq by essentially vassalizing the KDP, the main

486
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 8: party there, and they know they can't do the same

487
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 8: in North Eastyria, and the military option is their best chance,

488
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 8: their best hope of nipping Kurdish emancipation in Kurdish sub

489
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 8: determination in the Bud and preventing it from sort of

490
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 8: snowboarding across the region.

491
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think we should probably mention that, Like I guess,

492
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 6: if we talk about like the electoral method or the

493
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 6: electoral path people in Turkish Kurdistan, in Northern Kurdistan, if

494
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 6: you want to call it, in addition to the armed

495
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 6: struggle which has been there since nineteen eighty four, they

496
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 6: have also like tried to vote and repeatedly seen their

497
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:27,239
Speaker 6: votes ignored or changed or their elected officials removed. Like

498
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 6: this is within the last year, I'm not talking about

499
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 6: back in the eighties and nineties, and like Turkey has

500
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 6: been aggressively attacking any attempts at like self determination within

501
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 6: the country and then as you say, like militarily attacking

502
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 6: the Kurdish Freedom movement within northern Eassyria. Do you want

503
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 6: to talk about the Syrian National Army or the Turkish

504
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 6: back Free Syrian Army, whatever you want to call them,

505
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 6: an explain Like, I think part of what we're dealing

506
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 6: with is like that Turkey has a very well established

507
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 6: state media project and they seem to do very well

508
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 6: and like creating vire all social media content. So people

509
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 6: might not be fully familiar with who the SNA are

510
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 6: and specifically like Turkey's role in creating them. Do you

511
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 6: want to explain that a bit to people?

512
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean this is this is one of the

513
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 8: reasons why I think it's so hard for people to

514
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 8: report on the Syrian Civil War. It's very hard to

515
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 8: convey like a simple coherent narrative of one side versus

516
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 8: the other, you know, like Ukraine versus Russia, the Russian

517
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 8: world and Ukrainian world, because there are there are so

518
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 8: many different groups in the SNA is that it's an

519
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 8: important one and they are their group. Together with this

520
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 8: concept of the rebels that have liberated Syria, yeah, despite

521
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 8: the fact that they're not actually part of higher than

522
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 8: the liberation movement as it calls itself, that that have

523
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 8: taken over the Syria. Yeah, the Syrian National Army, it's

524
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 8: it's kind of like a loose collection of various some

525
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 8: of them called themselves brigades or groups. It's essentially a

526
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 8: millionary proxy force of Turkey. They don't have a coherent

527
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 8: political framework. They're not revolutionary groups. They're not liberatory or

528
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 8: mantif patrit They wouldn't describe themselves as that in the

529
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 8: same way that maybe HTS would. I mean, the Kurds

530
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 8: in North Eastyria describe them as gangs, which kind of

531
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 8: sounds like a propaganda term, but when you actually look

532
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 8: at what they do, they really are like a sort

533
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 8: of a criminal enterprise, a criminal gang that's used as

534
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 8: a convenient proxy for force by Turkey because oltimately Turkey

535
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 8: has like a massive military Then maybe it is quite

536
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 8: underfunded and not particularly astafter the air force has suffered

537
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 8: pretty seriously from the fallout of the coup in twenty sixteen,

538
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 8: but the army is massive, it's relatively well funded, and

539
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 8: their drone program is huge. The thing that they struggle

540
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 8: with is the losses that are incurred against Kurdish groups,

541
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 8: particularly the PKK, in the mountains between ark and Turkey,

542
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 8: and they need to they need to control that because

543
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 8: they realize that they've been fighting military as as you say,

544
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 8: since the early nineteen eighties, and they can't have a

545
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 8: Vietnam situation right of a mass movement against their military

546
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 8: occupation and against their military efforts. And Syria, they can't

547
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 8: afford financially or politically to get into a quadmire there,

548
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 8: and so by funding this sort of collection of groups

549
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 8: called the SNA, that's their way of being able to

550
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 8: incurb pretty massive losses without having to report on it,

551
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 8: without that creating unrest or opposition within the Turkish population

552
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 8: of Turkey.

553
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 6: Right, And I think especially when like some of the

554
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 6: things the SNA have done, which we can maybe get

555
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 6: into in man Bej like, it gives them a deniability

556
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 6: that wouldn't exist if that was regular soldiers doing that

557
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 6: like some stuff which is war crimes, is I guess

558
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 6: a nice way of saying it, like a more sanitized

559
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 6: way of saying it. But horrific stuff, really terrible stuff.

560
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 6: This has been, how think, since at least twenty eighteen.

561
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,719
Speaker 6: But Turkey doesn't have to be held accountable for that because,

562
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 6: like you said, it's not Turkish, it's not the Turkish army.

563
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 6: Do you want to explain how the situation in North

564
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 6: Syria has changed since what was it like two weeks ago?

565
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 6: A week ago? I guess that they moved south from

566
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 6: Aleppo and start the HTS, largely with some support from SNA,

567
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 6: moved towards Damascus and then the SNA launched its own

568
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,439
Speaker 6: assault on the Self Administration. Can you explain a little

569
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 6: bit of what's happened there in terms of displacement and

570
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 6: in terms of the terrain that's the SNA have captured.

571
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's been very fast moving now, as you say,

572
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 8: like it's only been two weeks since the battle for

573
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,760
Speaker 8: Allpos started if you call it a battle. So the FDA,

574
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 8: so this is like the alliance of military groups that

575
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 8: falls under the remit of the Self Administration in the

576
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 8: northe Eatia. So the YPG and the YPJ are like

577
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 8: the most famous and largest components of this force, but

578
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 8: there are a whole bunch of arab As, Syrian and

579
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 8: Armenian units within the SDF. They held this sort of

580
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 8: salient pushing out into northwest Aria towards Afrin, which was

581
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 8: captured by the SNA and Turkey in twenty eighteen. That

582
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 8: was on one side founded by HTS and on the

583
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 8: other by the SNA. When things really kicked off, the

584
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 8: SNA started a pretty concerned campaign to capture this area

585
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 8: and own as Shedpa, and because of its position and

586
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 8: it's relatively difficult terrain and difficult logitical position to resupply,

587
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 8: they pulled back from that towards Aleppo and man Beach,

588
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 8: which is the only major city that the SDS still

589
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 8: held on the west of the Euphrates, and it's the

590
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 8: area closest to Aleppo.

591
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 7: They got hit pretty hard.

592
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 8: If you follow a live upday map or any of

593
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:51,959
Speaker 8: these sort of update maps, it looked like that.

594
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 7: That's pretty quickly. Actually, it ended up being a sort

595
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 7: of large.

596
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 8: Gray zone of the gorilla attacks potentially still ongoing. It's

597
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 8: been really muking Hord to tell what's going on there,

598
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 8: but essentially there's a large area of uncontrolled but heavily

599
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 8: contested territory between Aleppo and the Euphrates River now and

600
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 8: which the SDF and the SNA have been fighting over.

601
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 7: Like one of the curious things for me is that

602
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 7: the Turkish Air.

603
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 8: Force and literally did not get involved for a while,

604
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 8: but after about a week they did, and they started

605
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 8: hitting man Beach very very heavily. And at that point,

606
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 8: when the center of man Beach started being contested and

607
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 8: for over, the US stepped in. We don't know the

608
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 8: details are, but there seems to have been some kind

609
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 8: of negotiation whereby the suggestion is that if the SDF

610
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 8: fighters poured back across the Euphrates, the SDF would assure.

611
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 7: Their protection from any further assorts.

612
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 8: We don't know how true that is, and we know

613
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 8: that today further negotiations on this failed. But it's really

614
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 8: hard to tell right now as we speak what's disinformation

615
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 8: and what's truth, because stuff's only coming out officially in

616
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 8: gyms and traps.

617
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, and stuff's coming out unofficially often that it's just

618
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 6: not true, Yeah, every five minutes and getting blasted by

619
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 6: maybe people who just don't understand, or who do understand

620
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 6: but have a certain agenda to push on social media,

621
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 6: especially but on Telegram too, and it can be really

622
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 6: confusing and it's really frustrating.

623
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 9: Yeah.

624
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 8: For instance, like just before we came on air, I

625
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 8: saw a couple of videos being posted by pro Turkish

626
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 8: accounts purportedly showing mass troop concentrations lined up against this

627
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 8: border or waiting to invade, and I realized that they

628
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 8: were from twenty and nineteen when Sarah Khane and Tellerbayad

629
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 8: were invaded, and they were just reposting material from then,

630
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 8: you know, as disinformation on these movements and weather and

631
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 8: tack's going to happen, what the negotiations between the US

632
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 8: and Turkey.

633
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 7: Turned out to be.

634
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 8: And the truth is like right now, we don't know

635
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 8: exactly what's going on.

636
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, and like you put, won't and that's probably a

637
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 6: good thing. One other thing is that like the SDF

638
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 6: tends to have much better operational security discipline than the

639
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 6: SNA does, so you won't see as much of like

640
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 6: media with an SDF spin or people directly streaming. I mean,

641
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 6: one thing the SDNA likes to do is a war

642
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 6: crime and then post it on telegram and so like,

643
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 6: it can be easy to only see that and be like,

644
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 6: oh god, it's terrible, and it is terrible. Those things

645
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 6: are horrific. But like, because you're not seeing when the

646
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 6: SDF is making movements or making advances until a bit later,

647
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 6: until you get something from like an official press channel,

648
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 6: it can give the impression that the SNA is just

649
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 6: romping around, which is not the case.

650
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, we saw this a few times when Manboot is

651
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 8: reported to being captured by the SNA and they posted

652
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 8: videos for themselves in the middle of the city, and

653
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 8: then an hour later the SDF posted a video from

654
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 8: the center of the city of twenty or thirty dead

655
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 8: SNA little about the streets and then flying their own.

656
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,439
Speaker 7: So yeah, yeah, it's really it's really hard to tell.

657
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 8: It's also really hard as like, anyone who cares about

658
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 8: the region has been there, is reported on it, anyone

659
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 8: interested in the kind of politics that the Kurds are

660
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,399
Speaker 8: built up in the region, and others, I should say,

661
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 8: it's you know, it's been a multi ethic project if

662
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 8: you care about that.

663
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 7: It's really hard not.

664
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 8: To be glued to social media to see what's going on,

665
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 8: but it can be quite detrimental to morrow. It can

666
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 8: be quite an active self harm to be like constantly

667
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 8: checking on this because it's so mucky and as you say,

668
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 8: like things can turn around within two hours of info

669
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 8: or distance for getting out there.

670
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think it's it's a super important time

671
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 6: to be looking at trusted sources and be considering if

672
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 6: you need to be on telegram that much, something I

673
00:39:47,000 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 6: have been considering this weekend. So let's talk about like

674
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 6: right now, certainly the focus is on Kabani, right, but

675
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 6: there's also well there's a lot of the self administration

676
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 6: that could potentially be under threat if Turkey decides to

677
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 6: go as hard as it can against the self administration

678
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,720
Speaker 6: against the existence of I guess any form of democratic

679
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 6: project in northern Easteria of attempts to kind of bring

680
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 6: the whole thing under one government from Damascus. Can you

681
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 6: explain like what might happen, what people can do, and

682
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 6: like we should talk about what's at stake as well,

683
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 6: especially with the prisoner our whole, which maybe we can

684
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 6: come to after those two things, because I think that's

685
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,919
Speaker 6: a lot to ask you one question, but maybe people

686
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 6: aren't familiar with our whole we'll leave that one. But

687
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 6: can you explain at first, like what could potentially happen

688
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 6: if Turkey decides to go as hard as it wants

689
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 6: to you here?

690
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 8: I mean, I think the best way to answer that

691
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 8: question is to look at what's already happened. So in

692
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 8: twenty eighteen and nineteen, they already captured three significant cities

693
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 8: and that were under control of the self administration to

694
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 8: the first, most famously was Afrin, which was in the

695
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 8: far northwest of the country, like just north Villeppo, sort

696
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 8: of jutting out into Turkey.

697
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:10,919
Speaker 7: That was a majority Kurdish city.

698
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 8: I don't know exactly, as it was something like eighty

699
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 8: or ninety percent, which I think is higher than any

700
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 8: other city in northern Syria. And it was also like

701
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 8: it's seen the least fighting of pretty much anywhere in

702
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 8: Syria by that point. So the war had been going

703
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 8: on for like what seven years, and Afin was pretty

704
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 8: much untouched.

705
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 7: So it was in a pretty good state.

706
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 8: And Turkey and the SNA invaded just as the war

707
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 8: against ISIS was winding down, and I mean, it's become

708
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 8: a hell on earth.

709
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 7: It's been almost completely depopulated I think.

710
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 8: It's less than ten percent now Kurdish ethnically.

711
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 7: It has been ruled by a number of different groups.

712
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 8: We can say the SNA, but you know, different groups

713
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 8: within the SNA and have fought over it. At the

714
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 8: HTS at times have had control over certain parts of

715
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 8: the area, and there's been a lot in fighting. There's

716
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 8: been horrendous war crimes, committed, great murder, thousands of disappeared people,

717
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 8: and as you say, they really like to openly put

718
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 8: videos out of them committing this stuff. I mean, they're

719
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 8: pretty shameless about it. There are some pretty disturbing videos

720
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 8: that they're mutilating the bodies of fallen YPJ soldiers, of

721
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 8: coming some re executions, of wiping out whole towns.

722
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 7: It's been awful. And the same thing.

723
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 8: Happened again in twenty nineteen around in October when they

724
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 8: captured as Sarah Khane and Talabiad. And it's worth also

725
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 8: pointing out that these were not Kurdish majority city surprise,

726
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 8: and so I think that Sarah Karney maybe was about

727
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 8: fifty percent and Telebayads, which is kind of close to Kurbani,

728
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 8: I'm pretty sure.

729
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 7: Wasn't Kurdish majority city.

730
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 8: B was organized under the self administration and it was

731
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 8: organized quite effectively, and they committed the same horrific times there.

732
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 8: They are an anti Kurdish for so if you can

733
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 8: say that they are racist, they do have.

734
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 7: A stated goal of committing genocide against the Kurts. That's

735
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 7: not an exaggeration. There's something they openly say.

736
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 8: But they don't seem to care who they steal from,

737
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 8: or who they rape or who they extort. Wherever they go,

738
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 8: it's death and destruction. And it still is now, and

739
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 8: there's still something like a quarter of a million internally

740
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 8: displaced people from these areas in North Essyria hoping to

741
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 8: go back and now having to see the situation get

742
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 8: even worse and not knowing if.

743
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 7: They ever will be able to.

744
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think like you were talking about, like

745
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 6: we're seeing it right now in man Beach, like the

746
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 6: SNA seems to liesee be in controlled of the city,

747
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 6: albeit with YPG fighters kind of more and I guess

748
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 6: in a gorilla role, so it would seem still fighting there.

749
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 6: But where I believe we're on the second day of

750
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 6: a general strike in man Beach after less than a

751
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 6: week of the SNA holding it because of looting and

752
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 6: executions and other war crimes.

753
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think this is like actually really good political

754
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 8: education to see what's happening, because what's been built up

755
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 8: in the Northeast has been built up over decades.

756
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 7: Right. They like to use this anology of the myosolium

757
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 7: and the fruiting bodies of a mushroom.

758
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 8: They appear to magically emerge from the earth in the

759
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 8: autumn out of nowhere, but actually, you know, they've been

760
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 8: brewing underground for years before, and they used this analogy

761
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 8: because it took decades to put in place these structures.

762
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,760
Speaker 8: That's why they were ready as soon as the regime

763
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 8: the Acid region pulled out and collapsed in the face

764
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 8: of ISIS in the early stages of the war, they

765
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 8: were ready to build up these structures. They already had

766
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 8: self organized militias, they had the economy planned out that

767
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 8: they set to work immediately.

768
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 7: And their SNA don't have any of that. They are

769
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,919
Speaker 7: a force of convenience.

770
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 8: They're mostly sort of young men who were in groups

771
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 8: before that were defeated in Syria like Isis, who are

772
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 8: simply taking the opportunity to enrich themselves.

773
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 7: And that's also very convenient for Turkey.

774
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 8: Because they do the dirty work against the population of

775
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 8: North Sypyria. So I think it's worth saying that that

776
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 8: aspect of it, that preparation, that resilience, is something that

777
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 8: also works in favor in the event of the worst

778
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,760
Speaker 8: case of full invasion of northern Assyria. I do think

779
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 8: they are significantly better prepared than they were in twenty

780
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 8: eighteen and nineteen. And even if the worst happens, even

781
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 8: if militarily it's defeated, that's not going to be the

782
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 8: end of this project, right, It's not going to be

783
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 8: the end of this emancipation. There's now an entire generation

784
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 8: of young people in North Eassyria who have grown up

785
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 8: entirely living amongst a liberated and anti hated region and

786
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 8: people that's not something you can militarily defeat. So I

787
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 8: you know, I'm not completely hopeless, and obviously I'll be

788
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 8: like devastated if the worst does happen there, But like,

789
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 8: I don't think it means the end of this incredible

790
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 8: political And it feels wrong to call it a project

791
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 8: because it's not.

792
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 7: It's really is a revolution in.

793
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 8: Every possible meaning of the word, and it's deeply embedded.

794
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 10: Now.

795
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think everyone I spoke to there, like

796
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 6: there's a deeply held conviction that they're not going back

797
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 6: some people who have seen like first hand the fascist

798
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 6: violence of ISIS and fascist is the right world. It's

799
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 6: something maybe worse than fascism, but like certainly that like

800
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 6: speaking to women in Rashava about how they're not going

801
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 6: back to the gendered violence of they experience for decades

802
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 6: to include ISIS, but by no means like only from ISIS.

803
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 6: And I guess that kind of brings us on to

804
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 6: I wanted to talk a little bit about the situation

805
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 6: in the parts of Syria that are controlled by HTS

806
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 6: and and in so much as they really are control

807
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 6: controller perhaps around word like they haven't fully established their

808
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 6: state project yet, but they're certainly moving towards that they've

809
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 6: sort of captured the institutions of the state rather than

810
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 6: destroyed them. You'd spoken about, like there's this very I

811
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 6: don't I think. I guess maybe i'll use an examples

812
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 6: or I'm phrasing this question in a very meandering way.

813
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 6: I sort of see ann clip where they're they're like, oh,

814
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 6: we found a guy who's liberally who's like in this

815
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 6: prison and he was stuck here. And then second part

816
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 6: of this was not broadcast on CNN, as this person

817
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 6: turns out to be like an Air Force lieutenant who

818
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 6: was in fact himself someone who tortured and killed civilians,

819
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:45,720
Speaker 6: And like, there's this very liberatory, very excited messaging coming

820
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 6: from media in the West. I guess some of which

821
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 6: is good, right, Like, it's good that the Assabe regime

822
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 6: is good. A sab was fucking terrible and tortured and

823
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 6: killed hundreds of thousands of his own people. But that

824
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 6: doesn't mean that things are all perfect in Damascus. So

825
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 6: do you want to talk a little bit about like

826
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 6: some of the worrying stuff we've see in the last

827
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 6: few days from those areas.

828
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean this is something that I worry isn't

829
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 8: being spoken about enough.

830
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 7: I don't, as a non Syrian, don't want to say.

831
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 8: To people, you know, you shouldn't be celebrating your own liberation,

832
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 8: because people should absolutely should be, and it's their right

833
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 8: to be. And I'm, like it, extremely happy that this

834
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 8: brutal dictator has gone.

835
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 7: I mean, it's it's hard to summarize.

836
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 8: Quite how awful he was, and it's it's deeply refiltrating

837
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 8: that he's probably not going to see justice. Yeah, But

838
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 8: it's also really hard to see stuff which is really

839
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 8: reminiscent of like nineteen seventy nine Tehran, two thousand and

840
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 8: three Baghdad, of a sort of jubilation, whilst at the

841
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 8: same time there are videos of sort of programs being

842
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 8: carried out against minorities, minorities like the Allies who were

843
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 8: in control, and you don't know if the person being

844
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 8: executed in the street were as a torture an intelligence

845
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 8: agent and.

846
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 7: You don't know who they were.

847
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 8: But like this is happening, but you're also seeing like

848
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,800
Speaker 8: sallapist groups raising their flag, you know, like hardline is

849
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 8: mis raising their flag in places like the Takia and

850
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 8: Tattoos that have significant minority populations. I am very I

851
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 8: mean concerned, is in the right word. Like it's hard

852
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 8: to fill that spirit of liberation when when you see

853
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 8: not only these things happening, but that.

854
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 7: The people who have captured these state institutions.

855
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 8: Are admitted former members of al Qaida, and they are

856
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 8: they are Jihad's hard line people that have now got

857
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 8: a very effectively.

858
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 7: Made themselves about to be moderate.

859
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 8: But my guart feeling is that we're going to see

860
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 8: something like Manei sem nine Tehran of a lot of

861
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 8: talk of reconciliation, a lot of talk of you know,

862
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 8: the concerns of the Kurds or working with the communists,

863
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 8: but you know, mass executions and.

864
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 7: Oppression is not around the corner.

865
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 8: And I guess when the tubulation dies down, my question

866
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 8: is what's going to happen when minorities do you demand

867
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,439
Speaker 8: their rights or women don't want to write a job

868
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 8: in you know, inside the building's inst state institutions. And

869
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 8: I'm finding it very hard to believe that these these

870
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 8: men who are professed Islimists are going to allow a

871
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 8: moderate future to exist.

872
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's I don't know.

873
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 6: Every day we get different information, right, but like, yeah,

874
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 6: I don't know if concerned it's the right word either,

875
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 6: I don't quite know what the word is.

876
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 4: But like I'm worried.

877
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 6: I guess I'm worried that I'm especially worried when like,

878
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 6: rather than what we saw in the self administration was

879
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 6: not like a continuation of institutions right when the Assad

880
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 6: regime left in twenty eleven, in twenty twelve, and areas

881
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 6: that the regime or isis have left since then, like

882
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 6: it wasn't like, Okay, we'll take over these institutions and

883
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 6: minister them differently as we will build democracy from the

884
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 6: bottom up, not we'll just you know, change to people

885
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 6: in charge versus what it seems like we're now seeing

886
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 6: for Damascus is like, hey, can the police from the

887
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 6: cyber regime police stay at work? Which is concerning Talking

888
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 6: of police, the last thing I wanted to address was

889
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 6: that our whole camp. I've spoken about it before on

890
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 6: the show, and people can look back on other episodes,

891
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 6: but if you've not heard about it, can you explain

892
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 6: briefly what our whole is and then the massive risk

893
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 6: that this Turkish backed invasion poses to our whole and

894
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 6: other camps. I guess the whole is not the only camp,

895
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 6: just the biggest one.

896
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, our whole is a really important point to talk about.

897
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 7: Our whole is a very large camp.

898
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 8: It's hard to sum up what kind of camp it

899
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 8: is because it's so fast and had different sections.

900
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 7: It's near Alhasse, which is.

901
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 8: One of the largest cities in north east Syria, and

902
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 8: it mostly it mostly contains families who were members or

903
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 8: were resident in the Islamic State when it collapsed, So

904
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 8: in the beginning of twenty nineteen, ISIS was sort of

905
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 8: squeezed into this little corner in the eastern side of

906
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 8: Syria between the Euphrates and the Iraqi border, and when

907
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 8: the state collapsed, for the caliphate collapse, a lot of

908
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 8: people had nowhere to go, and a lot of them

909
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 8: were foreignly sucomming from abroad.

910
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 7: I want to say a lot. I mean like tens

911
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 7: of thousands.

912
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 8: There were something like twenty thousand families left within SUSA

913
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 8: and that was like the last parts of the Califate

914
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 8: to hold out, and they didn't have anywhere to go.

915
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 8: There were already camps set up for IDPs for members

916
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 8: of ISIS and families in North Assyria, but alcohol was

917
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 8: rapidly expanded to take these on. So it's a sort

918
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 8: of semi prison, semi open. The camp that I think

919
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 8: peaked at.

920
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 7: Seventy five thousand people, which.

921
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 8: It sounds like a lot on its own, but when

922
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 8: you consider that a large city in northern Eassyria is

923
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,879
Speaker 8: about one hundred and fifty thousand people, it.

924
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 7: Still is significant.

925
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 8: I don't you probably have work of recent figause I mean,

926
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 8: but I think the current population is about forty thousand.

927
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, it shrunk definitely. I'm not sure what it is exactly.

928
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 7: The big problem that the self administration have had is multitude.

929
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 8: Really many of the people there are foreigners. Many of

930
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 8: them don't have papers. Many of them come from countries

931
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,240
Speaker 8: that either don't want them back or will almost certainly

932
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 8: execute them if they're sent back like a rock, which

933
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 8: is against the policy of the abolition of death penalty.

934
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 7: Inn Asyria.

935
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 8: There are some in Alohol, but mostly other camps in

936
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 8: the North and East a Syria. Former ISIS members like

937
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 8: Shamama Begum who come from countries like the UK who

938
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 8: simply won't take them back, and the UK has taken

939
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,399
Speaker 8: back some families that simply refuses to take back their

940
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 8: citizens who joined ISIS as you know, card carrying members.

941
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 8: So they've made a pretty massive effort to repatriate as

942
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 8: many families as possible. They've made a big effort to

943
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 8: rehabilitate and deradicalize as many people as possible. They have

944
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 8: shrunk the camp massively, but they're still yeah, forty thousand

945
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 8: or something left there and thinse of a like really

946
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 8: a lot of them are really radical, Like I think

947
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,720
Speaker 8: I don't know what an exact number is but something

948
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 8: in the order of ten thousand. Them are still like

949
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 8: professed being members of ices, and they have a lot

950
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 8: of children. And this was something that shocked me when

951
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 8: I was at the end of the caliphate and backwards

952
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 8: and witnessed tens of thousands of people coming out, and

953
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 8: I could not have imagined how many children that were.

954
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 7: And this was like what five years ago now coming

955
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:49,919
Speaker 7: up to six years ago.

956
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 8: So some of them who were you know, seven, eight,

957
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 8: nine years old are now like heading towards their mid teens.

958
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 8: They've spent their entire lives being radicalized and like what

959
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 8: do you do with them?

960
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 4: Right?

961
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 8: And it's no I think there's no coincidence that in

962
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 8: previous Turkish attacks. The Turkey's been attacking the northeast Assyria

963
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 8: for you know, the last five six years now through

964
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 8: the air, through national warfare, and a lot of their

965
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 8: attacks have focused on trying to break these people out.

966
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 8: They have bombed the entrances to prisons multiple times. They

967
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 8: provided funding and arms and ammunition to groups that are

968
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 8: trying to break them out, and they provide a safe

969
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,800
Speaker 8: passage back to Turkey for those who have managed to escape.

970
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,399
Speaker 8: So it's massively in their favor, But of course it's

971
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 8: a Pandora's box because you know, if that does break open,

972
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 8: and if these people aren't youpatriated or aren't you radicalized,

973
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 8: then that's a lot of people who have pretty much

974
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 8: only known their whole lives a extremely radical fascist Islamist ideology.

975
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 7: And I don't think they're just going to give it up. Yeah, No,

976
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 7: that they're not going to join this moderate future Syria.

977
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 6: No, And like those people have probably experienced, like probably

978
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 6: have terrible experiences within that camp, and that's not going

979
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 6: to make that that don't tend to be moderating and

980
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,800
Speaker 6: sort of pacifying experiences, And I'm sure that they will.

981
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 6: There'll be a lot of hate coming from there when

982
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 6: those people come out. And I don't want to lick

983
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 6: a portion blame too much, but we've had a long

984
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 6: time to deal with this. The world has had a

985
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 6: long time to deal with I mean, I.

986
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 8: Would happily blame this is entirely on the hands of

987
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:26,359
Speaker 8: the coalition. Northern Assyria is a very poor places. It's

988
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 8: deeply impoverished, and it's been kept in poverished by by

989
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 8: sanctions by Turkey. You know, the oil refinees that the industry,

990
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 8: the economy has been smashed to pieces that they've held

991
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 8: on really well, and that like all credit to them,

992
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 8: they have maintained this camp. They have tried to give

993
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 8: these people alive, but it's it's pretty awful conditions. Yeah,

994
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 8: and this could have been sold if the international community,

995
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 8: if the coalition, the United States had helped with these repatriations,

996
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 8: so put political pressure on European country some particular to

997
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,320
Speaker 8: take back their citizens and had just provided the funding,

998
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 8: you know, for they have provided funding. I'm not saying

999
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 8: they haven't pay much, but like it's a drop in

1000
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 8: the ocean compared to the Department Defense budget. You know,

1001
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 8: we're talking a few tens of millions here and there

1002
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 8: as opposed to a concerted effort to deradicalize and repatriate

1003
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 8: people that could pose a serious threat to Europe and

1004
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 8: the US.

1005
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, and like you've got Britain doing the opposite of

1006
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 6: what's helpful, which is fucking like removing people's passports, right

1007
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 6: like the naturalizing them, leaving these people stateless, and like

1008
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 6: saying it's not a problem, which is pathetic and.

1009
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 7: I'm very incredibly short sighted.

1010
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, I don't like using the word terror

1011
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 8: or terrorism, because I think it's they've become meaningless terms.

1012
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 8: But like ISIS did commit horrendous acts of terror in

1013
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 8: Europe and the United States, and these people, a lot

1014
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 8: of them, I'm sure would happily do so given the opportunity.

1015
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 8: So I don't think that the threat is is like

1016
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 8: sufficiently understood in the West.

1017
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, No, And like it's going to end up biting

1018
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 6: them in the ass because they've you know, they've put

1019
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 6: this off and put this off, and wouldn't spend the

1020
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 6: money to like have justice related to go through a

1021
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 6: system and to have a chance to plead their cases

1022
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 6: or have a tribune or whatever it is. Instead, these

1023
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 6: people have just been essentially abandoned by most of the world.

1024
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 6: The self administration has been forced to take care of

1025
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 6: the people who did horrific things right there. And Yeah,

1026
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 6: at some point, this population will continue to grow if

1027
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 6: we don't keep removing people from it, and that's going

1028
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 6: to be a problem for the whole world, even if

1029
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 6: the whole world wants to pretend it's not happening right now.

1030
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 6: And it is just endlessly frustrating to see it not

1031
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 6: even be covered, let alone kind of addressed in the West.

1032
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think that's a really important point. When similar

1033
00:58:54,680 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 8: atrustees have been carried out in Europe. We see international tribune,

1034
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 8: we see the ICC and the ICJ step in, We

1035
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 8: see arrests, we see prosecutions, you know, like Molossovich, like

1036
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 8: the newer Bent trials and Isis was was a massive state.

1037
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 8: It had something like ten million inhabitants. It committed multiple genocides,

1038
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 8: you know, and this is just you know, people in

1039
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 8: the regions saying, oh, they're committing just these are like

1040
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 8: Western highly studied, highly understood, accepted by Western states as

1041
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 8: genocide against like the Uzds.

1042
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 7: They committed horrendous atrocities.

1043
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 8: They are they posed an international threat and a massive

1044
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 8: regional threat and at the end of the caliphe as

1045
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 8: a territorial realm, as a serious military presence. It just, yeah,

1046
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 8: it just disappeared off the radar. And I think this

1047
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 8: is like a you know, a really issue really shows

1048
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 8: the sort of racist and clonal mindset behind this rules

1049
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 8: based international order that the people who were their victims

1050
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 8: and who have left to pick up the pieces after

1051
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 8: it's got very little support or recognition. And they've been

1052
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 8: calling for for tribunals.

1053
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 7: For years and it's just fallen on to ears.

1054
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, and sadly ilgy that changing given the incoming administration

1055
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 6: in the United States. Like it's it's deeply concerning. I

1056
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 6: deeply concerned. Through own word, it's just fucked. I want

1057
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 6: to ask, like, people I think want to be in

1058
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 6: solidarity with the revolution, They want to help if they can,

1059
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 6: they want to support. I did the fundraiser last night.

1060
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 6: Thank you to everyone who gave their money and came.

1061
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 6: That was really nice. But what can people do to

1062
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 6: you know, it's one thing to like be in solidarity

1063
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 6: or post or whatever, but like, what concrete actions can

1064
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 6: they take to help.

1065
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 8: This is This is a question that I gets asked

1066
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 8: a lot. Yeah, I think and doing anything is helpful. Yeah,

1067
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 8: it's also a question that's really hard to answer given

1068
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 8: how things are just across the border in Palestine. You know,

1069
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 8: I personally find it hard to to engage and ask

1070
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 8: for help and ask for solidarity when you know there's

1071
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 8: a there's a genocide being committed next door. But we

1072
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 8: might be about to see the same thing happen in Syria,

1073
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 8: and I do think we should be taking it seriously.

1074
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 8: And yeah, anything from raising awareness to actually going there

1075
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 8: and lending support anything on that spectrum. It's not just like,

1076
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,439
Speaker 8: it's not just the material contribution that you can make.

1077
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 8: It's the people that do really feel left doubt, they

1078
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 8: feel betrayed, they feel let down by the international community,

1079
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 8: by the rest of the world, and any act of

1080
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 8: solidarity goes out incredibly well. Like the first year I

1081
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 8: was there, I was basically useless because I didn't speak

1082
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 8: the language, I didn't know my way around. I was

1083
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 8: like a burden on society more or less. And for

1084
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:44,919
Speaker 8: people just like happy that you're there, you know, showing solidarity,

1085
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 8: And it's not about being useful, it's about that act.

1086
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 8: It's about more than that. That's what I'm trying to say.

1087
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 8: And if you can show solidarity in any way you can, like,

1088
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 8: this is incredibly incredibly important to time to do it.

1089
01:01:57,760 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think, like I don't know, if I go

1090
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 6: back when I moved to the US, which was two

1091
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 6: thousand and eight, George W. Bush as president, and like

1092
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 6: I have my little free Palestine badge when I got

1093
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 6: off the plane in my little kafir and like was

1094
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 6: immediately sent to secondary inspection by the customs people because

1095
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 6: like that was not really of course, there were Palestinian

1096
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 6: people and people in solidarity with the people of Palestine

1097
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 6: and the US in and they were for a long

1098
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 6: time before. But like I would never have imagined that

1099
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 6: I would see thousands of people in the streets for

1100
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 6: the Palestinian cause, and like that the only thing that

1101
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 6: has materially held back the genocide of the Palestinian people

1102
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 6: has been the solidarity that they've experienced, And like that

1103
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 6: shows the power that people have, though obviously it's been

1104
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 6: able to do comparatively little in Israel, still seems to

1105
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 6: be killing their children every day, but like it shows

1106
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 6: that we can build solidarity really quickly and really meaningfully,

1107
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 6: and like you don't have to go, but you can go.

1108
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 6: You get It's much harder to get to Palestine than

1109
01:02:56,680 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 6: it is to get to northern Essyria last year. And

1110
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 6: I think people who are already organizing can bring that

1111
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 6: into their organizing too. These things don't have to compete

1112
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 6: like they can be. There's a lot of solidarity to

1113
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 6: go around. But I would say a lot of the

1114
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 6: news we see, unfortunately from Turkey, and that will unfortunately

1115
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 6: give you information of the extremely biased when it comes

1116
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 6: to Naughti Syria. So being conscious of your media consumption

1117
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 6: is very important.

1118
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely.

1119
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 8: I think I would just add that to say that

1120
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 8: solidarity with any group is a long term project, right,

1121
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 8: You're not going to jump in and be able to

1122
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 8: make a huge difference immediately. But also at the same time,

1123
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,920
Speaker 8: like if the worst happens, if Turkey invades Vullon and

1124
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 8: as genocide and.

1125
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 7: Northern Syria, that isn't the end of it.

1126
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 8: It's a massive international movement and there are practices from

1127
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 8: it that are being put in place in things that

1128
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 8: actually don't even have anything to do with the curves

1129
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 8: of the nation. And there are always organizing, there are

1130
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:03,280
Speaker 8: matters that they use, there's personality analysis, there's criticism and

1131
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 8: self criticism that.

1132
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 7: There's a lot of that that goes far.

1133
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 8: Beyond a single geographic region, and I think engaging with

1134
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:12,480
Speaker 8: that can and I've seen with my own I since

1135
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 8: I've been back, like there's a lot of groups around

1136
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 8: the UK that use techniques for self organization within land

1137
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 8: rights movement, within worker struggle, within ant Cutts campaigning, and

1138
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 8: these got nothing to do with ra Java, but they

1139
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:33,920
Speaker 8: have seen that through solidarity with Rajava and Kurdistan that

1140
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 8: there are ways that can improve their own practice and

1141
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 8: their own actions.

1142
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1143
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 6: I think that's really important too, and those are things

1144
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 6: maybe we'll cover in the future. And there are plenty

1145
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:46,440
Speaker 6: of good resources online. Are there any resources you'd like

1146
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 6: to plug or like personal social media's things? Do you

1147
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 6: think people could follow to get good information on what's happening?

1148
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 7: Definitely the ri C, that's the Rajavia Information Center.

1149
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 8: They are probably the best source on the ground in Rajava,

1150
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 8: and they are a collective of journalists, a mixture of

1151
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 8: locals and internationalists who've been working there for six years now,

1152
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 8: so they're a rejer But I see on various social

1153
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 8: media platforms you can follow me as at lapinesque la

1154
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 8: p I n E, s q u E. I'm also

1155
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:23,040
Speaker 8: posting about it, although I'm not there anymore. I'm pisiting

1156
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 8: updates from friends, people I know there and my take

1157
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 8: on the situation based on my experiences being there from

1158
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 8: its five years.

1159
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think good to follow if you ken. Thank

1160
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:36,919
Speaker 6: you very much, Danny. What we're going to do now

1161
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 6: is I got some voice notes from some friends who

1162
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 6: are at the front with a techosina an assist which

1163
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 6: means anarchist struggle in Kurdish. They're a group within the

1164
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 6: SDF that is an anarchist group that they're fighting, and

1165
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 6: in this case as to doing frontline medical support on

1166
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 6: behalf of the self administration, on behalf of the revolution.

1167
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:00,160
Speaker 6: They sent me some notes this morning it's Monday today

1168
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 6: from their positions on the front line. So obviously those

1169
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 6: notes will be a little bit they'll be like twenty

1170
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 6: four hours old by the time you hear them. But

1171
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 6: I still think it's very important to hear from people

1172
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 6: who are there what we can not from, like someone

1173
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 6: who's supposed to be an expert but hasn't set for

1174
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 6: in Syria in fifteen years and hasn't really talked to

1175
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 6: anyone who's Syrian either. So we'll drop those in after

1176
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 6: the advertising break here and with that I will say

1177
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 6: thank you very much, Danny, thanks for giving us your time,

1178
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:27,800
Speaker 6: and he'll we really appreciate all you're insight today.

1179
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 7: Thanks very much.

1180
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 1: James, talking from the provisional branch.

1181
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 10: Just want to situation here because.

1182
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:53,840
Speaker 1: You're probably now the regime has fun.

1183
01:06:55,640 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 10: You've left the country after a big offensive that started

1184
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:07,960
Speaker 10: from Italy that took over quite soon quite fast the

1185
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 10: city of Alba and continued moving on. We wanted to

1186
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 10: explain how is the situation right now on the ground

1187
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 10: and also be some insight in the situation of North

1188
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:22,600
Speaker 10: in Syria and what the media is as not covering.

1189
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 1: Of the different events and situations that are unknowing here.

1190
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:31,120
Speaker 10: The main thing to remark that this can be a

1191
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 10: bit of a confusion confusion interview for those that are

1192
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:38,040
Speaker 10: maybe not familiar with the unknowing situation.

1193
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 1: To give a short context, we can mention.

1194
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 10: That there are right now two main conflicts ongoing military conflicts.

1195
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 10: One is when we reported they're not so much we

1196
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:57,320
Speaker 10: are talking about the war that HDS or the offensive

1197
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 10: that HDS launched against the army.

1198
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 1: And the other is.

1199
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 10: The offensive that the SMA and Turkish proxy forces the

1200
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 10: Wilder the name of that Syrian National Army, but that

1201
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,880
Speaker 10: they are trained, paid and supported by the Turkish estate,

1202
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:21,320
Speaker 10: the offensive that they have been launching against Northern Asyria

1203
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 10: and the Democratic Administration of North as Ayria is the

1204
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 10: area also known sometimes as Rigela, that is started as

1205
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 10: the court desieration movement leaving the world of Islamic state

1206
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 10: and establishing this autonomous administration. So let's go shortly to

1207
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:47,439
Speaker 10: the which conflict this offensive of each theater the faith

1208
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:53,600
Speaker 10: of reaction, but it's Islamige group direct heritage of Anatra

1209
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 10: that was the Syrian branch of the GUIDO that has

1210
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 10: been learning having somewhat government destructs in the region of

1211
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:06,719
Speaker 10: Uglype in the north west of Syria and was under

1212
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:11,280
Speaker 10: heavisage from the region forces in Syria Army and the

1213
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:14,439
Speaker 10: twenty seven of Nananda bay unch is bit offensive that

1214
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:17,200
Speaker 10: led to the collapse of the region.

1215
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 1: We could reflect deeply about the regions now.

1216
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 10: On one side, the Syria Aparty was exhausted that two

1217
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:25,880
Speaker 10: years of war here in.

1218
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 11: Syria, but especially their main allies and supporters were also

1219
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:35,559
Speaker 11: in that situation. We were talking mostly about Russia and Iran.

1220
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,600
Speaker 11: As we currently know, Russia has been in rage in

1221
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 11: a we're in Ukraine for three years.

1222
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:48,519
Speaker 10: Almost Iran recently had been also engaged in supporting the

1223
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:54,719
Speaker 10: militias in the NFL against Israel after the natural occupation

1224
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:57,440
Speaker 10: that Israel started.

1225
01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:58,559
Speaker 1: On an Aza year ago.

1226
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:04,160
Speaker 10: These two conflicts create a situation that both.

1227
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 1: Partners, that Russian and Iran were not able to support

1228
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 1: the army as day within the past and this led.

1229
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 10: Also to the collapse of the front lands of the

1230
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:23,040
Speaker 10: Serra party, allowing the offensive of HDS to overrun very

1231
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 10: fast the defenses in the city of Alipo and also

1232
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:31,520
Speaker 10: take in control of the city of Hamma. These sparked

1233
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:35,600
Speaker 10: also all their groups that also opposed the region for

1234
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:39,680
Speaker 10: a long time to start also the election, and in

1235
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:45,640
Speaker 10: southern Syria and the regions of the Sula and and Cunetia,

1236
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 10: there was also an autonomous military operation room that started

1237
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 10: coordinated insurgeons and the vision.

1238
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:57,679
Speaker 1: These sparked the collapse of the region.

1239
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 10: A lot of soldiers were defecting their posessions and finally

1240
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:06,200
Speaker 10: the different military groups living the offensive.

1241
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 1: To the mass Puts.

1242
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 10: This was an offensive that was really not very builded

1243
01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:17,000
Speaker 10: in the sense of a lot of the similar party

1244
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:20,599
Speaker 10: soldiers who were just leaving their positions and running away,

1245
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:25,759
Speaker 10: and offensive was able to advance very fast, very easily.

1246
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:32,520
Speaker 1: Right now. The offensive led to.

1247
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:34,800
Speaker 12: The transition that we are seeing in the masques where

1248
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 12: the leader of HDS.

1249
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:41,719
Speaker 1: Had been doing really.

1250
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:45,559
Speaker 10: Public speeches and the carrying the tunun for the revolution,

1251
01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:48,600
Speaker 10: trying to harvest.

1252
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:55,440
Speaker 1: And the revolutionary spirit of like twenty eleven for their.

1253
01:11:54,600 --> 01:12:02,719
Speaker 10: Own benefit and they imposed or as a transitional government

1254
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:07,360
Speaker 10: that is from exclusively by like members connected to aligned

1255
01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:11,959
Speaker 10: to HDS. Could be good to discuss more about HDS,

1256
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 10: but maybe it's not the.

1257
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 1: Focus of our interview right now.

1258
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 10: Just mentioned and their authoritarian government in Egypt has been

1259
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 10: also really criticized by local population organizing.

1260
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:28,599
Speaker 1: Protest against it and right.

1261
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:34,280
Speaker 10: Now running this interim government, they are already making proposals

1262
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 10: for like a morality police.

1263
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 1: Is amic courts.

1264
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:44,680
Speaker 10: So I don't know how much this comparison has been

1265
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 10: already shared. That clearly what we saw in a Findistan

1266
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 10: with Taliban taking over invested destructors is probably a good

1267
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:56,679
Speaker 10: guide to understand what could be happening in Syria. If

1268
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:00,760
Speaker 10: HDRS states control of the the state, it seems to

1269
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 10: be happening. So this is one of the confusion going

1270
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:05,599
Speaker 10: that is widely reported.

1271
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:08,439
Speaker 1: The only one maybe is not so much reported.

1272
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 10: We see how the Turkish has been for a long

1273
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 10: time to give the state has been for a long

1274
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:19,920
Speaker 10: time and attacking the vision of that Norway Syria, especially

1275
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:24,040
Speaker 10: the Cooldish areas, and this is connected not to their

1276
01:13:24,120 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 10: war against the con deliberation movement that has been in

1277
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:31,160
Speaker 10: for more than forty years and the last chapter of

1278
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:36,479
Speaker 10: Thesus started in coordination with this offensive of HDS where

1279
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:42,320
Speaker 10: their prop re forces started to attack many the region

1280
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 10: of thirty fact that was an area where a lot

1281
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 10: of the refugees from a friend we're living a frine

1282
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:53,679
Speaker 10: was a region that was a ray occupied by thirty

1283
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:57,120
Speaker 10: in twenty eighteen and a lot of the people from

1284
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:00,720
Speaker 10: the city was displaced and living in refuge amants in

1285
01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:05,240
Speaker 10: the origin of Hinda and the civil tech effect, and

1286
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:11,839
Speaker 10: these Turkish pretty forces attacked and conquered that vision, forcing

1287
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:15,840
Speaker 10: all these people that already had to leave their homes

1288
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:21,759
Speaker 10: more than five years ago to translating, yeah, so forcing

1289
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:25,920
Speaker 10: them to flee once again. A lot of these people

1290
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:35,760
Speaker 10: was trapped in a caroline that suffered brutal grades attacks, kidnapping, ransoms.

1291
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:39,360
Speaker 1: Like it has been make a really terrible experience for.

1292
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:43,040
Speaker 10: A lot of people that was trying to flee the

1293
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:47,559
Speaker 10: offensive of these Turkish patty forces and most of them

1294
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 10: are now arriving to do that time to write two

1295
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:53,880
Speaker 10: the visions of the self administration when where they are

1296
01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:59,120
Speaker 10: founding and they can find shelter and for those willing

1297
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:03,240
Speaker 10: to help with mentioned that vast is the humanitarian organization,

1298
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:06,839
Speaker 10: one of the biggest humanitarier organizations working in ant Assyria

1299
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:11,920
Speaker 10: has been providing fans and foot and blankets and everything

1300
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:14,879
Speaker 10: they can to support all these people that is arriving

1301
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:15,799
Speaker 10: on these areas.

1302
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:17,840
Speaker 1: So those willing to.

1303
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 10: Support economically and this humanitarian crisis we are experiencing, they

1304
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:25,560
Speaker 10: can't easily find.

1305
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:28,639
Speaker 1: The right side. And the Banakana.

1306
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:32,599
Speaker 10: Favasa to donay to them to support all these people

1307
01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:35,080
Speaker 10: that went again know there in their homes.

1308
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 1: But the offensives didn't stop.

1309
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 10: On an Shaffa and the SNA continued their attacks to

1310
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:47,840
Speaker 10: cover the city of Manage already right now and this

1311
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 10: was a really heavy classious that it was a really

1312
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:59,040
Speaker 10: serious military conflict that has been totally supported by Turkish

1313
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:00,639
Speaker 10: artillery and air force.

1314
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:02,440
Speaker 1: We are talking about.

1315
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:07,760
Speaker 10: Drones sitting different positions and even airplanes that of course

1316
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:11,760
Speaker 10: like nature air force have been bombing positions of the

1317
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:19,080
Speaker 10: cerin democratic forces, allowing these different even groups that are out.

1318
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:22,480
Speaker 1: Of this coalition of the SMA, these published pactic forces

1319
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:24,400
Speaker 1: to control of the city.

1320
01:16:25,560 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 10: At the moment, there is already several days a man

1321
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:34,760
Speaker 10: beach this city have been organizing protests and even in

1322
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:40,240
Speaker 10: general strike that started yesterday and the occupation because these

1323
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:44,280
Speaker 10: groups that occupied the city are looting and even killing

1324
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 10: local populations in a really terrible situation. Of this experience

1325
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:54,519
Speaker 10: in the local people living in Maniche, and they are.

1326
01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:57,080
Speaker 1: Willing to continue.

1327
01:16:57,120 --> 01:16:59,600
Speaker 10: They have been threatening the city of Colony in the

1328
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 10: simple of resistance of the regional revolution against the designed state.

1329
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:07,200
Speaker 1: And these threads and the city are.

1330
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:10,479
Speaker 10: Not just the bombings of the air force and artillery,

1331
01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:15,559
Speaker 10: but also a lot of military and personal of the

1332
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:22,720
Speaker 10: Turkish prepsy forces gathering on the bridge that connects the divisions.

1333
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 1: Of man Beach and Commanding and all across the air

1334
01:17:26,240 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 1: for this river.

1335
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 10: So this war is not so reported that it's been

1336
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:39,280
Speaker 10: really BOLTI times against the self administration in Northeastyria. We

1337
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:43,240
Speaker 10: are trying to report and update about the situation. We

1338
01:17:43,400 --> 01:17:47,799
Speaker 10: also published two statements to to call out at tension

1339
01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:54,520
Speaker 10: for comrade what is ongoing here and maybe also.

1340
01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:57,599
Speaker 1: Talk a bit about the work that we have been

1341
01:17:57,640 --> 01:17:59,640
Speaker 1: doing underground.

1342
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:04,839
Speaker 10: We need to remark that this offensive of the Mambage

1343
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 10: and now districts and Colony have not been the only

1344
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:10,840
Speaker 10: duds of the Turkish army and the perhapsy forces on

1345
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:16,320
Speaker 10: the wing all around the street that they occupied in

1346
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:21,080
Speaker 10: twenty eighteen and two thousand nineteen. The areas around the

1347
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:24,760
Speaker 10: city of Sylvania and Anisa next to the border with

1348
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:29,720
Speaker 10: Turkie also host a lot of Islamist groups that are

1349
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 10: part of this Turkish proty coalition and they have been

1350
01:18:34,040 --> 01:18:39,240
Speaker 10: intensively bonding the areas and their surroundings. And there have

1351
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:46,600
Speaker 10: been quiet widespread rumors of the Zamie Hope togethering forces

1352
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:51,960
Speaker 10: to continue their reports on the self administration of Nordestria

1353
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:56,760
Speaker 10: and the ward of the Cylind Democratic Forces. We from

1354
01:18:56,760 --> 01:19:00,000
Speaker 10: the kasinosas we have been working in the medical capacity,

1355
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:04,040
Speaker 10: the providing materials for the medical points in the in

1356
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:05,719
Speaker 10: the fundance and being.

1357
01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:08,040
Speaker 1: Present in the foundlands together with.

1358
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:12,519
Speaker 10: The Syrian Democratic Forces in case that a new invasion,

1359
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:15,160
Speaker 10: and it is happening right now.

1360
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 1: The bombings are hitting different areas and it has been

1361
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:21,960
Speaker 1: really intense in the last days.

1362
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:26,280
Speaker 10: The Syrian Democratic Forces are in maximum alard and especially

1363
01:19:26,280 --> 01:19:31,360
Speaker 10: there is an important call in solidarity with the city

1364
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:34,160
Speaker 10: of Covany, a symbol of resistance.

1365
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:36,000
Speaker 1: That is small ones again under threat.

1366
01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:41,800
Speaker 10: We have been seen as demonstrations are around the world

1367
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:46,960
Speaker 10: in Solarity with the motions here and this has been

1368
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:52,920
Speaker 10: also bringing out as motivation to continue the resistance underground.

1369
01:19:53,320 --> 01:19:58,000
Speaker 10: Right now, uh, these situations of the instability and political

1370
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:03,120
Speaker 10: tradition is still in ways that are difficult to predict.

1371
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:08,200
Speaker 1: We can see how the self administration has been tending political.

1372
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:12,000
Speaker 10: Realizations to the matters to memor Shade with this new

1373
01:20:12,080 --> 01:20:13,520
Speaker 10: provisional government.

1374
01:20:14,160 --> 01:20:17,639
Speaker 1: With the attempt to reach autonomy.

1375
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:21,760
Speaker 10: For the region that connects with the ideas of democratic controlism,

1376
01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:28,640
Speaker 10: the ideas of democratic comprolism. Don't expect to run a

1377
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:32,760
Speaker 10: state institutions because we don't want to live in a

1378
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:37,679
Speaker 10: society that is ruled by a state, and are calling

1379
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:44,400
Speaker 10: for time of autonomy in a local governments where then

1380
01:20:44,479 --> 01:20:49,920
Speaker 10: the different communities can live together, colleges together, administering their

1381
01:20:50,360 --> 01:20:51,520
Speaker 10: social forms.

1382
01:20:51,479 --> 01:20:53,679
Speaker 1: Together and also their defense.

1383
01:20:54,479 --> 01:20:57,080
Speaker 10: We'll see how the civil democratic forces is at a

1384
01:20:57,200 --> 01:21:02,519
Speaker 10: military coalition of different local teleforces that it's made on

1385
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:06,120
Speaker 10: the principles of self defense. Maybe to give a bit

1386
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:09,760
Speaker 10: of contexts of what we have been doing here for

1387
01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:14,960
Speaker 10: several years that our organization has been operating another Syria.

1388
01:21:16,320 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 1: As anarchists. We can here in solidarity international society with

1389
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 1: this revolution.

1390
01:21:22,200 --> 01:21:27,080
Speaker 10: Because their political values and their political project is really

1391
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:32,760
Speaker 10: close to our ideas. We see big similarities with the

1392
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:38,120
Speaker 10: ideas of libertarian socialism and social ecology and thinkers and

1393
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:42,200
Speaker 10: moral bootin have been a big inspiration found others and

1394
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:47,120
Speaker 10: the leader of the cour Desirational movement that has been

1395
01:21:47,160 --> 01:21:54,360
Speaker 10: proposing this political friend called democratic controlism, where especially with

1396
01:21:54,479 --> 01:21:58,080
Speaker 10: the principles of one liberation, social ecology and studios and

1397
01:21:58,160 --> 01:22:05,639
Speaker 10: offracy has been political campus of the revolution here. Building

1398
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:11,160
Speaker 10: autonomy in the different regions has been also a very

1399
01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:16,800
Speaker 10: important element to develop the project, and especially during the

1400
01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:20,840
Speaker 10: war and in one state, as soon as the different

1401
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:25,200
Speaker 10: territories were liberated, there was a big emphasis on creating

1402
01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:29,519
Speaker 10: local councils civilian and military councils.

1403
01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:33,719
Speaker 1: Both that around their own affairs.

1404
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:38,120
Speaker 10: This is very interesting from anarchists perspective not to see

1405
01:22:38,280 --> 01:22:43,320
Speaker 10: how one of the main political points is these promotings

1406
01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:47,479
Speaker 10: of defense and creating a military force that is not

1407
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:51,919
Speaker 10: based on a centralized monopoly of balance, but on allowing

1408
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:55,640
Speaker 10: every community to take care of their own defense and

1409
01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:59,240
Speaker 10: their own offairs. This is a really inspiring element that

1410
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:04,080
Speaker 10: for us has been also a really extraordinary learning process

1411
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:07,880
Speaker 10: being part of a revolution, leaving day to.

1412
01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:11,920
Speaker 1: Day the developments that are happening here and.

1413
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:16,639
Speaker 10: Seeing what doesn't mean to make a revolution, because it's

1414
01:23:16,680 --> 01:23:20,479
Speaker 10: something that sometimes we anarchists look back often in at

1415
01:23:20,520 --> 01:23:23,920
Speaker 10: the epic times of like Spain one thirty six or

1416
01:23:24,360 --> 01:23:28,479
Speaker 10: Ukraine in the twenties to see examples of an anarchist revolution,

1417
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:34,120
Speaker 10: and this is something that today is happening here. Courdistant

1418
01:23:34,200 --> 01:23:38,680
Speaker 10: has been for a long time living resistance against the

1419
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:42,120
Speaker 10: logic of national states, especially in Turkey, but we saw

1420
01:23:42,200 --> 01:23:45,120
Speaker 10: how it has been funding in Syria where that this

1421
01:23:45,360 --> 01:23:49,799
Speaker 10: movement found the space to put in practice these ideas

1422
01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:55,000
Speaker 10: and to develop the revolutionary society that has been theorized

1423
01:23:55,040 --> 01:23:58,280
Speaker 10: for a long time. So even if we cannot save

1424
01:23:58,439 --> 01:24:02,440
Speaker 10: vergialwas an anarchist, that we can say how the principles

1425
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:08,000
Speaker 10: inspired the project and that it's been developed here and implemented.

1426
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:12,719
Speaker 10: This is a really an important school and it brings

1427
01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:16,920
Speaker 10: a lot of lections of the big challenges of reorganizing

1428
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:22,640
Speaker 10: a society with principles of euer Italian socialism. It is

1429
01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:27,879
Speaker 10: especially complicated here because of external reasms like the situation

1430
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:31,120
Speaker 10: of the Marble, the constant threat of the Tutis army,

1431
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:35,879
Speaker 10: and this is something that for sure we can point out.

1432
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:38,360
Speaker 1: As like, well, it's very difficult to make a revolution

1433
01:24:38,479 --> 01:24:42,320
Speaker 1: with these factors, but this is also acting that making

1434
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:46,400
Speaker 1: a revolution will always be difficult, and we always have

1435
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 1: really big.

1436
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:52,120
Speaker 10: Factors that make the situation very difficult. If making a

1437
01:24:52,120 --> 01:24:54,280
Speaker 10: revolution would be easy.

1438
01:24:54,680 --> 01:24:55,920
Speaker 1: We would already have done it.

1439
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:59,680
Speaker 10: So of course it's something that brings a lot of difficulties,

1440
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:03,320
Speaker 10: a lot contradictions, to a lot of challenges and use

1441
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 10: here day to day living what it means to build

1442
01:25:07,240 --> 01:25:10,479
Speaker 10: the revolutionary society, a lot, a lot of equations from

1443
01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:14,479
Speaker 10: the reflections that we also able to translate and to

1444
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:18,439
Speaker 10: reflect together with the artist movements from around the world, to.

1445
01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:23,280
Speaker 12: Learn from his experience and to be able to analyze

1446
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:27,040
Speaker 12: together and reflect and discuss together of what it means

1447
01:25:27,720 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 12: to build anarchism in the twenty first century, what it

1448
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:36,800
Speaker 12: means to build libertarian socialism nowadays, in the current society

1449
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:38,600
Speaker 12: with all the different.

1450
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 10: Elements that we see, and of course in the military

1451
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:47,280
Speaker 10: comes the digion going. It can seem maybe sometimes far

1452
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:51,880
Speaker 10: away of a community in western countries, but I think

1453
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:55,080
Speaker 10: it's important to remember that revolution and war had been

1454
01:25:55,200 --> 01:25:57,559
Speaker 10: always to size of the same time.

1455
01:26:00,040 --> 01:26:05,120
Speaker 1: In these moments of instability of war where the logic

1456
01:26:05,200 --> 01:26:09,320
Speaker 1: and the established school of national states is more weak,

1457
01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:12,280
Speaker 1: because we can actually.

1458
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:14,439
Speaker 10: See in nine other times, in other moments or even

1459
01:26:14,479 --> 01:26:18,280
Speaker 10: in other places nowadays, what is happening, for example, in

1460
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:21,559
Speaker 10: the now, what is happening in the different areas where.

1461
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:25,000
Speaker 1: The logic of a national state is in questioned.

1462
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:28,320
Speaker 10: Creates in the stability to create a situation where the

1463
01:26:28,479 --> 01:26:31,000
Speaker 10: different actors will push.

1464
01:26:30,760 --> 01:26:34,880
Speaker 1: To take control. And we know that often those actors

1465
01:26:35,320 --> 01:26:37,960
Speaker 1: will be led by a nationalism.

1466
01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:42,439
Speaker 10: Forces mentality with an authoritarian logic to just impose their

1467
01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:45,559
Speaker 10: ideas and their aims by force.

1468
01:26:46,479 --> 01:26:50,160
Speaker 1: And it's very important that we think and we reflect and.

1469
01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:55,639
Speaker 10: Reorganize force that is able to react to that situation

1470
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:58,040
Speaker 10: because a traitarian.

1471
01:26:57,479 --> 01:27:03,160
Speaker 1: And hierarchic structors are required false to react.

1472
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:07,439
Speaker 12: We as anarchist, we need time to organize Arizona pally

1473
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:09,960
Speaker 12: because our structures.

1474
01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:15,519
Speaker 1: Function based usurn thrust also knowing each other. And even

1475
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:19,280
Speaker 1: if I really believe that they are much more solid

1476
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:22,519
Speaker 1: and much more reliable in a long term, in a

1477
01:27:22,600 --> 01:27:25,759
Speaker 1: short term we can face big, big challenge.

1478
01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:30,160
Speaker 12: So it's important to see fascism is as with advancing

1479
01:27:30,479 --> 01:27:33,679
Speaker 12: all around the world, and we can see how.

1480
01:27:33,680 --> 01:27:35,960
Speaker 1: The intentions are like growing.

1481
01:27:36,800 --> 01:27:41,040
Speaker 10: So maybe this isn't as a call might to learn

1482
01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:44,719
Speaker 10: from the lessons here, to learn from how the Kurdish

1483
01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 10: movement have been working and preparing for decades and what

1484
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:54,200
Speaker 10: happened in Syria made possible for the revolutionary movement to

1485
01:27:55,640 --> 01:27:58,680
Speaker 10: put the cards on the table, to organize together with

1486
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:01,760
Speaker 10: the people and to defense and their people and their

1487
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 10: communities building this revelifering process. But nowadays that so many

1488
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:13,080
Speaker 10: people have been like taking inspiration from, So yeah, probably

1489
01:28:14,000 --> 01:28:15,799
Speaker 10: this is a bit confusing and maybe.

1490
01:28:16,160 --> 01:28:20,479
Speaker 1: Not so current. Sorry, we have been quiet some hours.

1491
01:28:21,160 --> 01:28:26,479
Speaker 10: We've had several weeks that have been extremely challenging with really.

1492
01:28:26,360 --> 01:28:27,360
Speaker 1: Few hours of sleep.

1493
01:28:28,160 --> 01:28:31,400
Speaker 10: But I hope this is more or less clear, and

1494
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:35,360
Speaker 10: this is doing is something that it's not so understandable.

1495
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:39,640
Speaker 1: And always welcome new and.

1496
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:45,400
Speaker 10: New questions and helping to answer, answer and share more perspective.

1497
01:28:46,160 --> 01:28:51,240
Speaker 10: We have been answer writing some statements in their answer

1498
01:28:51,360 --> 01:28:56,240
Speaker 10: trying to answer all those people interested in learning more

1499
01:28:56,280 --> 01:28:59,040
Speaker 10: about the situation here and in.

1500
01:28:59,040 --> 01:29:00,559
Speaker 1: A ways special for different.

1501
01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:23,280
Speaker 5: Welcome to what could Happen Here? A show about things

1502
01:29:23,439 --> 01:29:28,040
Speaker 5: falling apart. I'm Garrison Davis, and this episode is going

1503
01:29:28,120 --> 01:29:31,639
Speaker 5: to be a special audio companion piece to an article

1504
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:37,280
Speaker 5: published last night on substack at shatter Zone. That's Robert's

1505
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:41,360
Speaker 5: usual substack, though. Last night I publish an article detailing

1506
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:48,559
Speaker 5: the online history and transvestigation discourse regarding a school shooting

1507
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:53,639
Speaker 5: in Madison, Wisconsin. The article has pictures and hyperlinks which

1508
01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:55,960
Speaker 5: might help explain some of the stuff I'm talking about,

1509
01:29:56,280 --> 01:29:57,920
Speaker 5: but I'll do my best to relay it here to

1510
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:02,840
Speaker 5: you on the podcast feed. Another Monday in America and

1511
01:30:03,040 --> 01:30:07,800
Speaker 5: another school shooting. On the morning of December sixteenth, a

1512
01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:11,639
Speaker 5: female student at Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin

1513
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:15,080
Speaker 5: shot and killed a teacher and fellow student, and injured

1514
01:30:15,120 --> 01:30:19,880
Speaker 5: six others before killing herself. Initially, police falsely reported the

1515
01:30:19,880 --> 01:30:23,439
Speaker 5: shooter was seventeen years old, but late Monday night they

1516
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:27,400
Speaker 5: correctly identified the deceased shooter as fifteen year old Natalie

1517
01:30:27,479 --> 01:30:32,040
Speaker 5: ruppnow who went by Samantha or sam. In the aftermath

1518
01:30:32,080 --> 01:30:36,240
Speaker 5: of this horrific event, right wing influencers and content creators

1519
01:30:36,360 --> 01:30:39,759
Speaker 5: wasted no time in blaming the shooting on trans people,

1520
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:43,320
Speaker 5: labeling the suspect as another in a series of alleged

1521
01:30:43,520 --> 01:30:48,479
Speaker 5: transgender terrorists. But what really happened here, had nothing to

1522
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:53,200
Speaker 5: do with trans people, and is sadly ordinary for the

1523
01:30:53,360 --> 01:30:57,800
Speaker 5: United States. In August of twenty twenty four, the father

1524
01:30:57,960 --> 01:31:00,760
Speaker 5: of the future school shooter took his to a gun

1525
01:31:00,880 --> 01:31:04,479
Speaker 5: range to do trap shooting. Samantha wore a shirt bearing

1526
01:31:04,520 --> 01:31:09,000
Speaker 5: the logo of a band KMFDM. In another photo of

1527
01:31:09,080 --> 01:31:11,160
Speaker 5: the shooter, we can see the front of the shirt.

1528
01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:16,120
Speaker 5: The same design was famously worn by Columbine shooter Eric Harris,

1529
01:31:16,439 --> 01:31:19,720
Speaker 5: who is a fan of the band. The bulk of

1530
01:31:19,800 --> 01:31:23,600
Speaker 5: this new shooter's online footprint suggests a general obsession with

1531
01:31:23,720 --> 01:31:28,840
Speaker 5: school shooters and the TCC or True Crime Community, a

1532
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:34,400
Speaker 5: nickname used for the de facto international Columbine fandom. This

1533
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:38,519
Speaker 5: sort of content dominates Samantha's tumbler, which last posted in

1534
01:31:38,760 --> 01:31:42,240
Speaker 5: May of twenty twenty four. An alleged online friend of

1535
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:46,360
Speaker 5: the shooter said that she quote posted about school shooters

1536
01:31:46,479 --> 01:31:51,559
Speaker 5: all the time quote end quote had school shooter leanings unquote.

1537
01:31:52,080 --> 01:31:55,240
Speaker 5: Samantha is hardly alone in this. There have been over

1538
01:31:55,439 --> 01:31:59,639
Speaker 5: one hundred copycats inspired by the Columbine shooting since nineteen

1539
01:31:59,720 --> 01:32:03,160
Speaker 5: ninety nine. A Twitter account believes to have belonged to

1540
01:32:03,200 --> 01:32:05,920
Speaker 5: the shooter posted a series of videos that teased and

1541
01:32:06,080 --> 01:32:09,360
Speaker 5: glorified school shootings in the days leading up to her

1542
01:32:09,439 --> 01:32:12,439
Speaker 5: own shooting. The account was created in December of twenty

1543
01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:15,439
Speaker 5: twenty four, and the profile picture featured a young man

1544
01:32:15,640 --> 01:32:19,639
Speaker 5: in camo pants and a tactical backpack. The male profile

1545
01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:23,880
Speaker 5: picture was used as evidence by some conservative influencers that

1546
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:28,320
Speaker 5: the shooter must have transitioned, though these same influencers cannot

1547
01:32:28,320 --> 01:32:31,160
Speaker 5: agree on whether she was female to male or male

1548
01:32:31,240 --> 01:32:35,240
Speaker 5: to female. One user constructed an overlay trying to compare

1549
01:32:35,320 --> 01:32:38,679
Speaker 5: the photo of the shooter with her Twitter profile picture.

1550
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:43,080
Speaker 5: This is a ridiculous diagram with about seven images overlaid

1551
01:32:43,080 --> 01:32:46,479
Speaker 5: at different opacities, trying to layer the faces and body

1552
01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:49,320
Speaker 5: shapes of these two people on top of each other.

1553
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:52,599
Speaker 5: This post is only proof that most of what gets

1554
01:32:52,680 --> 01:32:57,160
Speaker 5: passed off as quote unquote ocant online today's just completely

1555
01:32:57,680 --> 01:33:01,839
Speaker 5: incompetent rambling and propaganda. The main issue with his diagram

1556
01:33:02,240 --> 01:33:06,760
Speaker 5: is that the male profile picture is actually another Columbine copycat,

1557
01:33:06,960 --> 01:33:10,519
Speaker 5: a school shooter from Russia who, similar to Samantha, was

1558
01:33:10,600 --> 01:33:13,639
Speaker 5: only fifteen years old when he carried out his shooting.

1559
01:33:14,680 --> 01:33:18,000
Speaker 5: Hours after the shooting in Madison, Wisconsin, while right wing

1560
01:33:18,080 --> 01:33:22,000
Speaker 5: accounts were still arguing about what sort of transgender the

1561
01:33:22,080 --> 01:33:26,160
Speaker 5: shooter had been. A neo Nazi Twitter account named Nitro

1562
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:29,760
Speaker 5: claimed to be friends with the shooter on Discord and

1563
01:33:29,880 --> 01:33:33,640
Speaker 5: repeatedly denied accusations that the shooter was transgender, calling her

1564
01:33:33,640 --> 01:33:38,800
Speaker 5: our quote unquote biological woman. An early complicating factor in

1565
01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:42,000
Speaker 5: establishing the motive and identity of the shooter is that

1566
01:33:42,400 --> 01:33:45,240
Speaker 5: her alleged Twitter account posted a link to a Google

1567
01:33:45,280 --> 01:33:50,120
Speaker 5: doc of her manifesto, but seemingly forgot to make the

1568
01:33:50,360 --> 01:33:54,160
Speaker 5: visibility setting public, so you couldn't access.

1569
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:54,400
Speaker 4: The Google doc.

1570
01:33:54,479 --> 01:33:56,519
Speaker 5: You had to put in an email for approval, and

1571
01:33:56,600 --> 01:33:58,760
Speaker 5: the person who was supposed to approve your email was

1572
01:33:58,840 --> 01:34:01,840
Speaker 5: now dead, so there was no way to actually look

1573
01:34:01,920 --> 01:34:06,280
Speaker 5: at this person's manifesto. The shooter's alleged Discord friend, Nitro,

1574
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:09,479
Speaker 5: claims to find what he believes to be a snippet

1575
01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:13,439
Speaker 5: of a manifesto draft shared by the shooter in a

1576
01:34:13,600 --> 01:34:17,160
Speaker 5: Discord group chat. Nitro is based out of the UK,

1577
01:34:17,800 --> 01:34:20,200
Speaker 5: and so if this is legitimate, and that is a

1578
01:34:20,320 --> 01:34:23,559
Speaker 5: big if, this message would have been sent about an

1579
01:34:23,680 --> 01:34:27,800
Speaker 5: hour and a half before the shooting, per the Discord timestamp.

1580
01:34:28,520 --> 01:34:30,960
Speaker 5: I'm going to read a bit of this alleged writing

1581
01:34:31,200 --> 01:34:34,519
Speaker 5: from the shooter quote. Women are the only hope for

1582
01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:38,120
Speaker 5: this wretched world. But even women have been brainwashed by

1583
01:34:38,320 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 5: moids for too long. They've internalized the patriarchy and turned

1584
01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:46,479
Speaker 5: on each other, always begging for male approval and validation.

1585
01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:52,000
Speaker 5: It's disgusting. I realize the truth. Men are irredeemable. Radfem

1586
01:34:52,120 --> 01:34:57,280
Speaker 5: Hitler was is fucking vindicated. Now they can't be reformed

1587
01:34:57,360 --> 01:35:00,000
Speaker 5: or redeemed. They are a fucking scourge upon the earth.

1588
01:35:00,360 --> 01:35:04,639
Speaker 5: The only solution is to total exterminate them and every

1589
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:09,479
Speaker 5: foid who worships these fucking parasites. Every single male must

1590
01:35:09,520 --> 01:35:12,519
Speaker 5: be wiped out, from babies to the elderly. Only then

1591
01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:14,840
Speaker 5: can women be free to create a new world. All

1592
01:35:14,920 --> 01:35:17,080
Speaker 5: be the pioneer. I'll be the first one to take

1593
01:35:17,120 --> 01:35:22,519
Speaker 5: the first step. I don't care if their fathers, brothers, husbands, sons, teachers, police,

1594
01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:27,200
Speaker 5: and especially n words or politicians. I've been craving to

1595
01:35:27,320 --> 01:35:30,200
Speaker 5: kill them all. This is my mission. Only when their

1596
01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:33,519
Speaker 5: parasitic sludge has been expunged from the earth is when

1597
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:36,920
Speaker 5: then the world will be clean and women can start over.

1598
01:35:37,360 --> 01:35:40,759
Speaker 5: It's the only way. In approximately ten minutes, I should

1599
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:46,040
Speaker 5: be dead. It's strange, but it feels good. Hopefully to

1600
01:35:46,200 --> 01:35:51,640
Speaker 5: most people, this should read like unintelligible gibberish, a reactionary

1601
01:35:51,720 --> 01:35:55,679
Speaker 5: quote unquote feminist screed about initiating a wave of male

1602
01:35:55,880 --> 01:36:01,280
Speaker 5: targeted violence to cleanse the earth with pepperings of and foids,

1603
01:36:01,400 --> 01:36:04,680
Speaker 5: which is Internet in cell slang for male and female respectively.

1604
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:09,400
Speaker 5: Also included are racial slurs and something called quote unquote

1605
01:36:09,600 --> 01:36:13,160
Speaker 5: radfem Hitler. That last part is a reference to a

1606
01:36:13,200 --> 01:36:16,639
Speaker 5: Twitter influencer by the same name and the handle hollow

1607
01:36:16,840 --> 01:36:21,560
Speaker 5: earth Turf, whose content is a mix of trad influenced

1608
01:36:21,720 --> 01:36:26,200
Speaker 5: right wing feminism with anti trans flourishes, advocating for a

1609
01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:31,839
Speaker 5: mass purge of mooids. This includes trans women. This account

1610
01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:34,920
Speaker 5: is derided by those both on the right and left,

1611
01:36:35,439 --> 01:36:38,920
Speaker 5: but has a small dedicated following of conservative radfem and

1612
01:36:39,080 --> 01:36:45,000
Speaker 5: anti trans women with trad or often occult interests. The

1613
01:36:45,080 --> 01:36:48,559
Speaker 5: discord nazi Nitro claimed that the shooter was quote unquote

1614
01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:52,519
Speaker 5: a fan of radfem Hitler and talked about the account

1615
01:36:52,560 --> 01:36:56,519
Speaker 5: frequently on Discord. Though Nitro previously believed her interest in

1616
01:36:56,600 --> 01:37:00,720
Speaker 5: the account was merely ironic, now obviously an anonymous Twitter

1617
01:37:00,840 --> 01:37:04,840
Speaker 5: nazi is certainly not the most reliable source, but Nitro

1618
01:37:05,120 --> 01:37:08,400
Speaker 5: was the first person to correctly identify and post photos

1619
01:37:08,439 --> 01:37:12,280
Speaker 5: of the shooter. Though they could be utilizing this newfound

1620
01:37:12,400 --> 01:37:16,280
Speaker 5: clout to troll a widely disliked Twitter user, but the

1621
01:37:16,360 --> 01:37:20,200
Speaker 5: fact that he's been right about all other details inclines

1622
01:37:20,240 --> 01:37:24,080
Speaker 5: me to not discount his claims just altogether, but instead

1623
01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:28,920
Speaker 5: just hold them with a billion pounds of salt. Allegations

1624
01:37:28,960 --> 01:37:33,160
Speaker 5: that the shooter was a neo Nazi Radfem certainly sent

1625
01:37:33,479 --> 01:37:38,439
Speaker 5: Radfem Hitler into a panic, who quickly deleted her account. Meanwhile,

1626
01:37:38,600 --> 01:37:42,160
Speaker 5: some of her online associates worked damage control, claiming to

1627
01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:45,120
Speaker 5: have contacted the alleged boyfriend that the shooter had been

1628
01:37:45,240 --> 01:37:49,280
Speaker 5: quote unquote e dating, with the apparent intention of disproving

1629
01:37:49,400 --> 01:37:53,080
Speaker 5: any ties the shooter had to the Twitter Radfem orbit.

1630
01:37:53,600 --> 01:37:58,160
Speaker 5: Through this alleged online boyfriend, the right wing turf Ecosystem

1631
01:37:58,439 --> 01:38:01,040
Speaker 5: claimed to have acquired a copy of the quote unquote

1632
01:38:01,439 --> 01:38:07,559
Speaker 5: full manifesto. This purported manifesto lacks the anti male, anti

1633
01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:12,800
Speaker 5: moid ramblings of the discord screenshot, but unsurprisingly shares its

1634
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:17,439
Speaker 5: use of racial slurs and glorification of violence, at times

1635
01:38:17,479 --> 01:38:21,800
Speaker 5: evocative of Pecca Eric Auvinen's manifesto, a Finnish school shooter

1636
01:38:21,920 --> 01:38:25,599
Speaker 5: from two US and seven who killed eight people. Auvinen

1637
01:38:25,720 --> 01:38:29,839
Speaker 5: considered himself a quote unquote natural selector who had evolved

1638
01:38:29,960 --> 01:38:35,080
Speaker 5: beyond the classmates he gunned down. In Samantha's purported manifesto,

1639
01:38:35,640 --> 01:38:39,760
Speaker 5: he is mentioned by name as a quote unquote true inspiration.

1640
01:38:40,880 --> 01:38:44,479
Speaker 5: Over the course of eight hours, a radfem Twitter account

1641
01:38:44,600 --> 01:38:48,400
Speaker 5: released six pages of what they claimed to be Samantha's writing.

1642
01:38:49,120 --> 01:38:52,920
Speaker 5: It contains general misanthropic rambling about humanity and parents being

1643
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:56,599
Speaker 5: quote unquote scum. The writing describes a difficult family life,

1644
01:38:56,680 --> 01:39:00,800
Speaker 5: suicidal thoughts, and admiration for school shooters and white supremacists.

1645
01:39:01,640 --> 01:39:07,360
Speaker 5: Though it briefly references the accelerationist terror gram saints, the

1646
01:39:07,439 --> 01:39:10,360
Speaker 5: whole of this piece of writing is much more reminiscent

1647
01:39:10,520 --> 01:39:15,920
Speaker 5: of old school columnbiners than the modern white nationalist terror milieu.

1648
01:39:17,120 --> 01:39:20,880
Speaker 5: The alleged manifesto directly names the two Columbine shooters and

1649
01:39:21,040 --> 01:39:26,600
Speaker 5: includes a paragraph on Vladyskov Rosleyakhov, another Columbine copycat, but

1650
01:39:26,800 --> 01:39:29,280
Speaker 5: from Crimea, who also cause played as one of the

1651
01:39:29,320 --> 01:39:33,360
Speaker 5: Columbine shooters during his own mass shooting. Though the discord

1652
01:39:33,439 --> 01:39:37,280
Speaker 5: Nazi and the reactionary rad femmes question the authenticity of

1653
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:41,200
Speaker 5: the others alleged manifesto, what both sides of the in

1654
01:39:41,360 --> 01:39:45,760
Speaker 5: cell war do agree on is that Samantha was not transgender.

1655
01:39:46,680 --> 01:39:48,240
Speaker 5: We're going to go on a quick ad break and

1656
01:39:48,360 --> 01:39:52,799
Speaker 5: come back to discuss transvestigation and the trans terror panic.

1657
01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:03,519
Speaker 4: Okay, we are back.

1658
01:40:04,840 --> 01:40:08,519
Speaker 5: It seems these days the fastest way to get transvestigated

1659
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:13,120
Speaker 5: is to do a school shooting. Transvestigating is the practice

1660
01:40:13,200 --> 01:40:17,599
Speaker 5: of trying to determine if an individual is transgender. It's

1661
01:40:17,680 --> 01:40:22,760
Speaker 5: often leveled against celebrities, athletes, and politicians, but in recent

1662
01:40:22,880 --> 01:40:28,440
Speaker 5: years there's been a new common subject of transvestigation, mass shooters,

1663
01:40:28,880 --> 01:40:33,920
Speaker 5: in particular school shooters. Myself, Robert Evans, and James Stout

1664
01:40:34,360 --> 01:40:37,760
Speaker 5: previously reported on this trend back in twenty twenty three,

1665
01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:41,439
Speaker 5: right as it grew in prominence after the Nashville Covenant

1666
01:40:41,479 --> 01:40:45,120
Speaker 5: School shooting, which police say was committed by a transman,

1667
01:40:45,880 --> 01:40:48,640
Speaker 5: we theorized that the online right was testing out a

1668
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:52,560
Speaker 5: new strategy to attack trans people by associating them with

1669
01:40:52,800 --> 01:40:56,600
Speaker 5: mass shootings via the use of selective bias reporting and

1670
01:40:56,840 --> 01:41:02,280
Speaker 5: plane disinformation that fear has come to pass. The modicum

1671
01:41:02,360 --> 01:41:06,080
Speaker 5: of believability provided by the Nashville shooting, as it's the

1672
01:41:06,200 --> 01:41:10,960
Speaker 5: only legitimate transrelated incident that meets criteria for mainstream mass

1673
01:41:11,000 --> 01:41:15,280
Speaker 5: shooting databases, was enough to fuel this ongoing strategy for

1674
01:41:15,360 --> 01:41:20,200
Speaker 5: the next two years. Since then, conservative influencers have attempted

1675
01:41:20,280 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 5: to link nearly every viral mass slash school shooting to

1676
01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:29,080
Speaker 5: trans people to create a false trend. The strategy operates

1677
01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:33,040
Speaker 5: as follows. During the first few chaotic hours after a shooting,

1678
01:41:33,400 --> 01:41:36,000
Speaker 5: a small group of right wing content creators weaponized the

1679
01:41:36,080 --> 01:41:39,559
Speaker 5: lack of verified information to make posts framing an alleged

1680
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:42,519
Speaker 5: shooter as being transgender. This can be done through the

1681
01:41:42,600 --> 01:41:45,880
Speaker 5: use of out of context social media posts, doctrine photographs,

1682
01:41:46,160 --> 01:41:50,080
Speaker 5: photos of other people, or simply pictures of long or

1683
01:41:50,240 --> 01:41:53,320
Speaker 5: dyed hair. All they need is a collection of loose

1684
01:41:53,400 --> 01:41:56,920
Speaker 5: evidence to affirm on social media that a mass shooter

1685
01:41:57,400 --> 01:42:00,479
Speaker 5: is really transgender. For more context on this, you can

1686
01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:02,479
Speaker 5: listen to an episode of It Could Happen here. I

1687
01:42:02,600 --> 01:42:07,480
Speaker 5: wrote earlier this year covering the rise of fake trans terrorists.

1688
01:42:08,840 --> 01:42:11,120
Speaker 5: The goal is to get as many of their followers

1689
01:42:11,280 --> 01:42:15,240
Speaker 5: to see and spread these claims as fast as possible.

1690
01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:19,000
Speaker 5: Even if it's widely debunked the next day, many who

1691
01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:22,519
Speaker 5: heard the false claim won't be aware of the verified correction.

1692
01:42:23,400 --> 01:42:26,360
Speaker 5: All these anti trans influencers in need is a brief

1693
01:42:26,479 --> 01:42:30,000
Speaker 5: window of time to plant the idea into people's minds,

1694
01:42:30,640 --> 01:42:35,640
Speaker 5: and then that becomes remembered history. If this strategy is

1695
01:42:35,720 --> 01:42:38,719
Speaker 5: repeated every few months whenever there's a new mass shooting,

1696
01:42:39,360 --> 01:42:42,320
Speaker 5: then it's pretty easy to create the false perception of

1697
01:42:42,400 --> 01:42:43,360
Speaker 5: a growing trend.

1698
01:42:44,080 --> 01:42:44,200
Speaker 1: Now.

1699
01:42:44,439 --> 01:42:47,960
Speaker 5: In reality, trans people per capita are actually way less

1700
01:42:48,120 --> 01:42:51,479
Speaker 5: likely to commit a shooting compared to CIS people, and

1701
01:42:51,800 --> 01:42:54,920
Speaker 5: are much more likely to be the victim of gun violence.

1702
01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:59,559
Speaker 5: But this past Monday, conservative and anti trans influencers tried

1703
01:42:59,600 --> 01:43:03,280
Speaker 5: once again to weaponize a tragedy for their own hateful agenda.

1704
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:09,559
Speaker 5: Monday afternoon, Ian Miles Chung posted trans terrorism must end.

1705
01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:14,360
Speaker 5: Hours later, Laura Lumer wrote, quote the trans movement is

1706
01:43:14,439 --> 01:43:18,560
Speaker 5: really turning out to be a terrorist movement unquote. Just

1707
01:43:18,680 --> 01:43:22,400
Speaker 5: minutes after police responded to the shooting, the conservative influencer

1708
01:43:22,600 --> 01:43:26,679
Speaker 5: Matt Wallace posted that an unknown quote unquote witness said

1709
01:43:26,680 --> 01:43:31,280
Speaker 5: that the shooter quote looked to be transgender unquote. Wallace,

1710
01:43:31,320 --> 01:43:34,360
Speaker 5: who has over two point two million followers on Twitter,

1711
01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:38,559
Speaker 5: provided no source or citation and has since deleted this post,

1712
01:43:39,360 --> 01:43:43,599
Speaker 5: but others in the online mega orbit parroted this language

1713
01:43:43,720 --> 01:43:48,200
Speaker 5: before any identifying information was released, with the user just

1714
01:43:48,439 --> 01:43:52,679
Speaker 5: Jeff from Cali writing a transperson targeted and opened fire

1715
01:43:52,800 --> 01:43:56,439
Speaker 5: on students at Abundant Life Christian School in Wisconsin twelve hit.

1716
01:43:57,680 --> 01:44:01,200
Speaker 5: The right wing content creator Ryan Mada baselessly claimed that

1717
01:44:01,280 --> 01:44:04,559
Speaker 5: the shooter was on hormone replacement therapy, calling the shooter

1718
01:44:04,760 --> 01:44:08,880
Speaker 5: quote another mentally unstable psychopath who has prescribed puberty blocker

1719
01:44:09,040 --> 01:44:12,479
Speaker 5: and hormones unquote. Mata hosts a show on the right

1720
01:44:12,520 --> 01:44:16,320
Speaker 5: wing YouTube alternative Rumble and has over one hundred and

1721
01:44:16,400 --> 01:44:19,280
Speaker 5: twenty three thousand followers on Twitter. His tweet claiming the

1722
01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:21,880
Speaker 5: shooter was on HRT racked up one point six million

1723
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:26,439
Speaker 5: quote unquote views and seventeen thousand likes in just twelve hours.

1724
01:44:27,240 --> 01:44:30,479
Speaker 5: Larger accounts like Tya write Check's libs of TikTok fueled

1725
01:44:30,640 --> 01:44:33,679
Speaker 5: undue speculation about the gender identity of the shooter, seeding

1726
01:44:33,720 --> 01:44:37,240
Speaker 5: confusion into the growing discourse and weaponizing a tragedy for

1727
01:44:37,320 --> 01:44:41,280
Speaker 5: political gain, quoting the police chief saying, quote, I don't

1728
01:44:41,320 --> 01:44:45,000
Speaker 5: know if the shooter is male or female unquote. A

1729
01:44:45,080 --> 01:44:49,160
Speaker 5: small group of conservative influencers have just so successfully created

1730
01:44:49,240 --> 01:44:52,960
Speaker 5: in alternate reality in which nearly every new mass shooter

1731
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:56,439
Speaker 5: is transgender that they don't even have to outright say

1732
01:44:56,520 --> 01:44:59,920
Speaker 5: it anymore. Accounts like libs of TikTok and Malaysian blog

1733
01:45:00,040 --> 01:45:03,719
Speaker 5: ugger Ian Miles Chung can merely gesture to this reality

1734
01:45:03,760 --> 01:45:07,920
Speaker 5: tunnel they've intentionally created, and now thousands of people will

1735
01:45:07,960 --> 01:45:11,880
Speaker 5: affirm this fake reality as the obvious truth, backed up

1736
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:16,479
Speaker 5: by historical precedent of fabricated memory. Matt Wallace posted a

1737
01:45:16,520 --> 01:45:19,800
Speaker 5: photo of the shooter and the male profile picture, saying

1738
01:45:20,439 --> 01:45:24,200
Speaker 5: what do you notice about the shooter again? Ian miles

1739
01:45:24,280 --> 01:45:27,920
Speaker 5: Chung posted quote, police are unable to identify if the

1740
01:45:27,920 --> 01:45:31,880
Speaker 5: school shooter in Madison, Wisconsin is male or female, but

1741
01:45:32,000 --> 01:45:33,920
Speaker 5: they do know who did it and identified them as

1742
01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:37,799
Speaker 5: a student. Is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking? Unquote?

1743
01:45:38,840 --> 01:45:43,519
Speaker 5: This speculation fueled conspiracy theories, which spread claiming that police

1744
01:45:43,600 --> 01:45:47,880
Speaker 5: were intentionally withholding information about the shooter's gender identity in

1745
01:45:48,000 --> 01:45:52,080
Speaker 5: service of some hidden agenda, and actually they were just

1746
01:45:52,200 --> 01:45:55,120
Speaker 5: waiting to like let the family know that their daughter

1747
01:45:55,320 --> 01:45:58,120
Speaker 5: was dead and making sure they had the correct identification.

1748
01:45:58,760 --> 01:46:01,599
Speaker 5: Very basic stuff. Police all do this, but no, it's

1749
01:46:01,640 --> 01:46:05,080
Speaker 5: all part of some secret agenda and some hidden narrative.

1750
01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:10,040
Speaker 5: As early as one pm EST on Monday, which is

1751
01:46:10,360 --> 01:46:12,519
Speaker 5: just like an hour after the shooting would have taken place,

1752
01:46:13,040 --> 01:46:16,639
Speaker 5: the neo Nazi Twitter account Nitro correctly identified the shooter

1753
01:46:16,800 --> 01:46:21,920
Speaker 5: as his online friend Sam Samantha. As this name spread online,

1754
01:46:22,040 --> 01:46:25,800
Speaker 5: the multi gendered nature of the name added to the

1755
01:46:25,840 --> 01:46:30,479
Speaker 5: speculation that the shooter was trans. Scarlett Johnson, an activist

1756
01:46:30,560 --> 01:46:33,920
Speaker 5: with the ultra conservative parents' rights group Moms for Liberty

1757
01:46:34,400 --> 01:46:38,559
Speaker 5: Shared self admitted unconfirmed reports that the shooter was quote

1758
01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:43,000
Speaker 5: unquote a transgender teen who went by Sam or Samantha.

1759
01:46:44,080 --> 01:46:47,040
Speaker 5: As alleged pictures of the shooter started to spread online

1760
01:46:47,280 --> 01:46:51,800
Speaker 5: courtesy of Nitro, the transvestigation of the shooter only intensified.

1761
01:46:52,360 --> 01:46:56,639
Speaker 5: An unfortunate coincidence is that the shooter's given name matches

1762
01:46:56,760 --> 01:47:02,200
Speaker 5: the ancient Sam Hide meme, in which extremely online people

1763
01:47:02,360 --> 01:47:04,680
Speaker 5: try to trick journalists into believing the culprit of a

1764
01:47:04,760 --> 01:47:09,120
Speaker 5: new mass shooting was the American comedian Sam Hyde. In

1765
01:47:09,240 --> 01:47:13,360
Speaker 5: recent years, the meme has turned into the Samantha Hide meme,

1766
01:47:13,840 --> 01:47:18,000
Speaker 5: used to falsely label mass shooters as trans women. One

1767
01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:22,240
Speaker 5: hide post from an unassuming boomer named Ed Massey raked

1768
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:26,760
Speaker 5: up over six hundred thousand views, four point five thousand likes,

1769
01:47:27,120 --> 01:47:31,000
Speaker 5: and one and a half thousand retweets. Massi posted quote,

1770
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:34,599
Speaker 5: when you put disturbed children on hormone blockers and sexually

1771
01:47:34,720 --> 01:47:38,439
Speaker 5: mutilate them, you're not curing them. You're creating potential school

1772
01:47:38,479 --> 01:47:42,920
Speaker 5: shooters unquote. Now it should go without saying, but the

1773
01:47:43,080 --> 01:47:46,960
Speaker 5: use of puberty suppressing medication has no link to increased violence.

1774
01:47:47,479 --> 01:47:49,799
Speaker 5: We're going to go on one last break and return

1775
01:47:49,920 --> 01:48:04,040
Speaker 5: to conclude our discussion of transvestigating school shooters. Okay, we

1776
01:48:04,160 --> 01:48:08,719
Speaker 5: are back. Time to talk about the potential double flipper.

1777
01:48:10,479 --> 01:48:14,320
Speaker 5: So as this transvestigation continued, the quote unquote, we can

1778
01:48:14,439 --> 01:48:19,799
Speaker 5: always tell. Crowd ended up transvestigating in both directions, seemingly

1779
01:48:20,000 --> 01:48:22,880
Speaker 5: unsure of what a signed gender at birth the shooter

1780
01:48:23,080 --> 01:48:26,479
Speaker 5: must have had. Some believe the shooter was transferm while

1781
01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:30,840
Speaker 5: others concluded they were trans mask with one reply to

1782
01:48:30,960 --> 01:48:34,479
Speaker 5: an end wokeness tweet reading quote those do not look

1783
01:48:34,600 --> 01:48:39,840
Speaker 5: like female hands, and another transvestigation post saying the shooter

1784
01:48:40,000 --> 01:48:43,320
Speaker 5: is a trans kid, a female pretending to be a male.

1785
01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:46,759
Speaker 5: Exactly why we keep our Second Amendment rights to protect

1786
01:48:46,800 --> 01:48:50,160
Speaker 5: our children from this mental health crisis. Zoom in close

1787
01:48:50,280 --> 01:48:54,880
Speaker 5: on her shirt and hand gesture unquote. A now deleted

1788
01:48:54,920 --> 01:48:57,479
Speaker 5: post from a URF account also attempted to pass off

1789
01:48:57,520 --> 01:49:00,679
Speaker 5: the shooter as a transgirl, saying, quote, the Wsconsin school

1790
01:49:00,680 --> 01:49:05,120
Speaker 5: shooter was a seventeen year old transidentified male. It just

1791
01:49:05,320 --> 01:49:09,519
Speaker 5: keeps happening now quote unquote. Trans identified male was usually

1792
01:49:09,560 --> 01:49:12,360
Speaker 5: a transphobadogu whistle to refer to a trans woman as

1793
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:17,560
Speaker 5: a male who identifies as a trans woman, but sometimes

1794
01:49:17,720 --> 01:49:20,960
Speaker 5: transfoms get confused by words and use the phrase to

1795
01:49:21,080 --> 01:49:24,240
Speaker 5: refer to trans people who quote unquote identify as men,

1796
01:49:25,000 --> 01:49:28,120
Speaker 5: like this other transvestigation post saying quote shooter was a

1797
01:49:28,160 --> 01:49:32,360
Speaker 5: seventeen year old trans but identified male now. One of

1798
01:49:32,400 --> 01:49:35,719
Speaker 5: the most widespread posts claiming the shooter was a trans

1799
01:49:35,840 --> 01:49:39,400
Speaker 5: guy came from an anti Semitic doctor in Denmark with

1800
01:49:39,520 --> 01:49:43,519
Speaker 5: one point four million followers. She falsely claimed with no evidence,

1801
01:49:43,880 --> 01:49:47,919
Speaker 5: that the shooter was taking testosterone, writing quote the Wisconsin

1802
01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:50,240
Speaker 5: school shooter has been identified as a seventeen year old

1803
01:49:50,320 --> 01:49:55,280
Speaker 5: trans identified male another mentally ill girl on testosterone unquote.

1804
01:49:55,880 --> 01:49:59,519
Speaker 5: As of Tuesday morning, this post has over three million views,

1805
01:49:59,600 --> 01:50:03,400
Speaker 5: twenty two two thousand likes, and eight point three thousand retweets.

1806
01:50:04,479 --> 01:50:07,800
Speaker 5: In a following post, this doctor blamed quote unquote the

1807
01:50:07,960 --> 01:50:13,519
Speaker 5: Jews for inventing transgenderism as a note extremism. Researchers have

1808
01:50:13,680 --> 01:50:18,280
Speaker 5: argued that transphobia is structurally similar to anti semitism. Now.

1809
01:50:18,400 --> 01:50:21,800
Speaker 5: A common piece of anti trans memetic propaganda deployed in

1810
01:50:21,880 --> 01:50:26,640
Speaker 5: the wake of mass shootings is the transshooter collage. This

1811
01:50:26,800 --> 01:50:29,840
Speaker 5: format spread after the Nashville school shooting in twenty twenty three,

1812
01:50:30,200 --> 01:50:33,519
Speaker 5: and this week Matt Wallace provided us with a brand

1813
01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:38,599
Speaker 5: new version. This post is an ugly mishmash of one, two, three, four, five, six,

1814
01:50:39,040 --> 01:50:43,640
Speaker 5: seven people's faces with a variety of backgrounds, a purposeless

1815
01:50:43,760 --> 01:50:46,280
Speaker 5: red circle in the middle of the image, and text

1816
01:50:46,360 --> 01:50:49,479
Speaker 5: that reads quote, almost every child killed in a mass

1817
01:50:49,479 --> 01:50:51,680
Speaker 5: shooting in the last few years was killed by a

1818
01:50:51,720 --> 01:50:56,160
Speaker 5: transgender shooter. Now, out of all those pictures in this clash,

1819
01:50:56,680 --> 01:50:59,360
Speaker 5: only one person in this clash has actually reported to

1820
01:50:59,400 --> 01:51:02,640
Speaker 5: be transgender. The Nashville shooter in the upper left. The

1821
01:51:02,840 --> 01:51:05,840
Speaker 5: rest of the people pictured are not trans and have

1822
01:51:06,000 --> 01:51:08,960
Speaker 5: never claimed to be trans. The person with long hair

1823
01:51:09,080 --> 01:51:11,960
Speaker 5: in the lower half the image is cult Gray, who

1824
01:51:12,040 --> 01:51:14,720
Speaker 5: is falsely labeled as trans by far right influencers like

1825
01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:19,519
Speaker 5: end Wokeness and Mike Cernovich. Cult Gray's discord posts reveal

1826
01:51:19,600 --> 01:51:23,880
Speaker 5: he actually held transphobic beliefs. A more classic version of

1827
01:51:23,960 --> 01:51:27,800
Speaker 5: the trans shooter collage format is just five pictures with

1828
01:51:27,960 --> 01:51:31,240
Speaker 5: texts next to each of them, reading the X shooter

1829
01:51:31,360 --> 01:51:35,519
Speaker 5: identified as trans, the X shooter identified as trans right,

1830
01:51:35,680 --> 01:51:37,600
Speaker 5: just a big list of five of these names is

1831
01:51:37,640 --> 01:51:41,479
Speaker 5: saying that they all identified as trans. The version I'm

1832
01:51:41,560 --> 01:51:45,639
Speaker 5: using here is courtesy of Limbs of TikTok admin Chaya Reichek,

1833
01:51:45,680 --> 01:51:49,160
Speaker 5: who posted this earlier this year. But just as before,

1834
01:51:49,360 --> 01:51:53,000
Speaker 5: the majority of the subjects in this meme aren't actually

1835
01:51:53,320 --> 01:51:57,519
Speaker 5: trans and it's just full of disinformation. The Colorado Springs

1836
01:51:57,600 --> 01:52:00,720
Speaker 5: shooter who targeted a queer club is not actually non

1837
01:52:00,800 --> 01:52:04,280
Speaker 5: binary and simply tried to weaponize a false identity to

1838
01:52:04,360 --> 01:52:07,280
Speaker 5: get out of hate crime charges. The person labeled as

1839
01:52:07,360 --> 01:52:10,760
Speaker 5: the Denver shooter is not trans, has never claimed to

1840
01:52:10,800 --> 01:52:14,880
Speaker 5: be trans. He just has dyed hair. This individual pictured

1841
01:52:15,080 --> 01:52:18,720
Speaker 5: did plan the shooting with a transgender male who is

1842
01:52:19,000 --> 01:52:23,200
Speaker 5: not pictured. Now, Lastly, though the person pictured as the

1843
01:52:23,360 --> 01:52:27,479
Speaker 5: Euvaldi shooter is trans, this is not the actual Euvaldi shooter.

1844
01:52:27,560 --> 01:52:30,200
Speaker 5: It's a random trans girl who was one of two

1845
01:52:30,320 --> 01:52:33,320
Speaker 5: trans women whose photos were used to falsely label the

1846
01:52:33,400 --> 01:52:36,519
Speaker 5: shooter as transgender. The other two people in this image

1847
01:52:36,640 --> 01:52:38,880
Speaker 5: is the Nashville shooter who does appear to be trans,

1848
01:52:39,240 --> 01:52:43,320
Speaker 5: and the perpetrator of the Aberdeen workplace shooting. But back

1849
01:52:43,360 --> 01:52:48,040
Speaker 5: to Madison, Wisconsin. So after all of that transvestigating, what

1850
01:52:48,240 --> 01:52:52,360
Speaker 5: do we have just another columnbiner with neo Nazi ties.

1851
01:52:53,040 --> 01:52:55,880
Speaker 5: The right has gotten so good at deploying the trans

1852
01:52:55,960 --> 01:52:59,439
Speaker 5: shooter as a smoke bomb it obscures the reality of

1853
01:52:59,560 --> 01:53:03,840
Speaker 5: the ov availability of firearms, the dynamics of online radicalization,

1854
01:53:04,360 --> 01:53:08,599
Speaker 5: and the social issues that fuel alienation and anger in youth.

1855
01:53:09,400 --> 01:53:12,240
Speaker 5: Instead of focusing on all that on the victims of

1856
01:53:12,320 --> 01:53:15,720
Speaker 5: this epidemic of white supremacist violence, we instead have to

1857
01:53:15,720 --> 01:53:19,640
Speaker 5: spend a whole day debunking the late shooters pronouns. And

1858
01:53:20,000 --> 01:53:22,880
Speaker 5: that's the point, that's what they want us talking about.

1859
01:53:23,479 --> 01:53:27,360
Speaker 5: Those who delete their quote unquote trans terrorist posts after

1860
01:53:27,439 --> 01:53:31,280
Speaker 5: being conclusively proven wrong, will try the exact same shtick

1861
01:53:31,400 --> 01:53:35,000
Speaker 5: in a few months after the next mass shooting goes viral.

1862
01:53:35,760 --> 01:53:38,360
Speaker 5: Others won't even care that much. They'll just leave up

1863
01:53:38,360 --> 01:53:41,920
Speaker 5: their post, secure in the stability of the reality tunnel

1864
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:45,960
Speaker 5: they helped to create. I'm going to close with a

1865
01:53:46,080 --> 01:53:50,799
Speaker 5: quote from Sartra. Never believe that fascists are completely unaware

1866
01:53:50,920 --> 01:53:53,960
Speaker 5: of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their

1867
01:53:54,000 --> 01:53:58,360
Speaker 5: remarks are frivolous, open to challenge, but they are amusing themselves,

1868
01:53:59,080 --> 01:54:01,519
Speaker 5: for it is their ada visari who was obliged to

1869
01:54:01,760 --> 01:54:07,439
Speaker 5: use words responsibly since he believes in words. This post

1870
01:54:07,520 --> 01:54:30,160
Speaker 5: has been deleted. Welcome to It could Happen Here, a

1871
01:54:30,280 --> 01:54:33,840
Speaker 5: podcast about the worst coups in all of history. I'm

1872
01:54:33,880 --> 01:54:37,640
Speaker 5: your host, Via Wong, and we are returning to one

1873
01:54:37,680 --> 01:54:40,760
Speaker 5: of the worst coups I have ever seen, because a

1874
01:54:40,800 --> 01:54:44,040
Speaker 5: whole bunch more stuff has happened in our most recent,

1875
01:54:44,320 --> 01:54:48,520
Speaker 5: unbelievably dogshit coup in South Korea, the six hour coup

1876
01:54:49,280 --> 01:54:52,840
Speaker 5: at which President Yun declared martial law and tried to

1877
01:54:52,840 --> 01:54:55,200
Speaker 5: shut down the National Assembly, and then the National Assembly

1878
01:54:56,280 --> 01:54:59,720
Speaker 5: got together and voted to end the martial law, and

1879
01:55:00,040 --> 01:55:03,600
Speaker 5: then it stopped extremely.

1880
01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:07,280
Speaker 13: Bizarre in baffling series of events. And you know, when

1881
01:55:07,320 --> 01:55:10,640
Speaker 13: we last left our intrepid heroes, the people of South Korea,

1882
01:55:10,680 --> 01:55:13,160
Speaker 13: they had just successfully overturned a coup. No one quite

1883
01:55:13,200 --> 01:55:14,920
Speaker 13: knew what was gonna happen in the aftermath. We knew

1884
01:55:14,920 --> 01:55:19,200
Speaker 13: an impeacha vote was coming, a vote to impeach President Yun.

1885
01:55:20,200 --> 01:55:22,440
Speaker 13: The reason we're coming back to this, though, is that

1886
01:55:22,520 --> 01:55:25,360
Speaker 13: the aftermath of all of this has been absolutely baffling,

1887
01:55:26,160 --> 01:55:28,480
Speaker 13: and I think this has all been lost in the

1888
01:55:28,560 --> 01:55:31,440
Speaker 13: news cycle because about a trillion things are happening right now,

1889
01:55:31,760 --> 01:55:36,320
Speaker 13: but the situation in South Korea has been unbelievably weird,

1890
01:55:37,520 --> 01:55:39,360
Speaker 13: and so we're now going to take a look at

1891
01:55:39,440 --> 01:55:43,680
Speaker 13: the actual impeachments of President Yun and the unbelievably bizarre

1892
01:55:43,880 --> 01:55:47,760
Speaker 13: path that led to it, because oh my god, the

1893
01:55:47,840 --> 01:55:49,600
Speaker 13: more I talk to people, the more I realize that

1894
01:55:49,680 --> 01:55:54,080
Speaker 13: people don't know how unbelievably unhinged everything has been since

1895
01:55:54,160 --> 01:55:56,320
Speaker 13: since the military coup, because everyone has moved on. So

1896
01:55:56,480 --> 01:55:59,840
Speaker 13: we're going back. So immediately after the coup, there is

1897
01:56:00,000 --> 01:56:02,800
Speaker 13: this whole wave of military guys going like we didn't

1898
01:56:02,840 --> 01:56:06,400
Speaker 13: know we were taking part in the coup, We're totally innocent, like, oh,

1899
01:56:07,040 --> 01:56:08,800
Speaker 13: they just let us out of the trucks and suddenly

1900
01:56:08,880 --> 01:56:10,160
Speaker 13: we were at the National Assembly.

1901
01:56:10,400 --> 01:56:11,840
Speaker 4: We were like, oh, what are we doing?

1902
01:56:12,480 --> 01:56:14,240
Speaker 13: And there's also been this whole thing of all these

1903
01:56:14,280 --> 01:56:17,200
Speaker 13: special forces guys going like oh yeah, no, no, yeah,

1904
01:56:17,200 --> 01:56:19,800
Speaker 13: we totally could have taken the National Assembly in twenty

1905
01:56:19,840 --> 01:56:22,400
Speaker 13: minutes if we wanted to. We just we just like

1906
01:56:22,680 --> 01:56:25,480
Speaker 13: didn't want to take a National Assembly, Like we didn't

1907
01:56:25,480 --> 01:56:26,840
Speaker 13: we didn't really want to do it, man.

1908
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:28,360
Speaker 4: Like our heart wasn't in this coup.

1909
01:56:28,640 --> 01:56:32,440
Speaker 13: And like, really, I have seen the videos of that shit, man,

1910
01:56:32,600 --> 01:56:34,520
Speaker 13: Like I didn't see you like going in there and

1911
01:56:34,600 --> 01:56:36,560
Speaker 13: kicking ass and taking names. I saw you getting your

1912
01:56:36,600 --> 01:56:39,560
Speaker 13: ass kicked by a guy just like blowing your ass

1913
01:56:39,640 --> 01:56:42,400
Speaker 13: up with a fire extinguisher and like not being able

1914
01:56:42,440 --> 01:56:44,960
Speaker 13: to break a bunch of very well constructive barricades set

1915
01:56:45,000 --> 01:56:49,240
Speaker 13: up by like fucking Senate aids. So that's been extremely funny.

1916
01:56:49,800 --> 01:56:52,680
Speaker 13: So you like vanished for the entire time this coup

1917
01:56:52,760 --> 01:56:54,840
Speaker 13: was going on, and like nobody knew where he was

1918
01:56:55,000 --> 01:56:58,520
Speaker 13: and no one had seen him and things were kind

1919
01:56:58,560 --> 01:56:59,680
Speaker 13: of fiasco e.

1920
01:57:00,320 --> 01:57:01,040
Speaker 4: He was just gone.

1921
01:57:01,080 --> 01:57:05,800
Speaker 13: So he finally like reappeared, right and as he sort

1922
01:57:05,800 --> 01:57:09,600
Speaker 13: of reappears, he tries to like do this explanation of

1923
01:57:09,760 --> 01:57:12,840
Speaker 13: why he did the coup. It goes about as badly

1924
01:57:12,880 --> 01:57:14,840
Speaker 13: as you would expect from someone who just failed the

1925
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:18,880
Speaker 13: worst coup that we've ever seen. Here's from MPR quote.

1926
01:57:19,200 --> 01:57:22,800
Speaker 13: In his speech on Thursday June, a former chief prosecutor

1927
01:57:22,840 --> 01:57:26,520
Speaker 13: attempted to justify his actions and downplay its significance. He

1928
01:57:26,800 --> 01:57:31,560
Speaker 13: argued that the opposition's quote legislative dictatorship unquote paralyzed state

1929
01:57:31,600 --> 01:57:35,320
Speaker 13: affairs and disturb social order. Now this, this is going

1930
01:57:35,400 --> 01:57:38,040
Speaker 13: back to the thing you know he did at the time. Right,

1931
01:57:38,760 --> 01:57:40,879
Speaker 13: he has this thing where he keeps calling the Parliament,

1932
01:57:40,920 --> 01:57:42,920
Speaker 13: which is controlled by the Democratic Party, which is like

1933
01:57:42,920 --> 01:57:46,520
Speaker 13: the liberal opposition party. He kept calling the parliaments like

1934
01:57:46,680 --> 01:57:51,080
Speaker 13: opposition anti state forces, and like, my brother in Christ,

1935
01:57:51,280 --> 01:57:55,400
Speaker 13: what the fuck is a legislative dictatorship? I mean, like,

1936
01:57:55,720 --> 01:57:58,320
Speaker 13: you know, you could be really strictly anarchist about it

1937
01:57:58,400 --> 01:58:01,840
Speaker 13: and be like, well, yeah, all legislative dictatorships, but my dude,

1938
01:58:02,280 --> 01:58:06,480
Speaker 13: you are not living under a dictatorship because the parliament

1939
01:58:06,520 --> 01:58:08,880
Speaker 13: that your country elected hates you and refuses to pass

1940
01:58:08,920 --> 01:58:11,920
Speaker 13: your dogship budget because no one likes you. That is

1941
01:58:12,120 --> 01:58:15,920
Speaker 13: simply not what the word dictatorship means. It reminds me

1942
01:58:15,960 --> 01:58:17,920
Speaker 13: of this thing where like, you know, if if you

1943
01:58:18,000 --> 01:58:21,040
Speaker 13: go back and you read like people in the eighteen

1944
01:58:21,160 --> 01:58:24,240
Speaker 13: hundreds talking about or like eight like seventeen hundreds too,

1945
01:58:24,360 --> 01:58:28,760
Speaker 13: you'll read them talking about monarchies, right, and they'll be like, Ah,

1946
01:58:28,920 --> 01:58:31,920
Speaker 13: if the king can like overrule the will of the nobles,

1947
01:58:32,000 --> 01:58:34,040
Speaker 13: we would be living in a peer dictatorship. It's like,

1948
01:58:34,480 --> 01:58:37,080
Speaker 13: what the fuck are you talking about? Like Surri, you

1949
01:58:37,160 --> 01:58:39,880
Speaker 13: live under a monarchy, like you are already in a dictatorship.

1950
01:58:39,920 --> 01:58:42,400
Speaker 13: You are also like part of the authoritary and aprahas

1951
01:58:42,440 --> 01:58:44,080
Speaker 13: of the dictatorship, and this is just like the inverse

1952
01:58:44,160 --> 01:58:46,960
Speaker 13: of that where it's like, ah, the legislature won't let

1953
01:58:47,040 --> 01:58:49,160
Speaker 13: me do whatever the fuck I want, so this is

1954
01:58:49,240 --> 01:58:54,320
Speaker 13: now a dictatorship. And so like you know, that's simply

1955
01:58:54,440 --> 01:58:57,240
Speaker 13: not what the word dictatorship means. And you can't get

1956
01:58:57,240 --> 01:59:00,200
Speaker 13: away with that shit as much in a country where

1957
01:59:00,240 --> 01:59:03,200
Speaker 13: people like in living memory have lived through an actual

1958
01:59:03,240 --> 01:59:07,360
Speaker 13: military dictatorship and understand what that's like. The parliament refusing

1959
01:59:07,440 --> 01:59:10,200
Speaker 13: to pass your terrible budget, that's not an excuse to

1960
01:59:10,360 --> 01:59:13,840
Speaker 13: institute martial law and try to shut down the legislature.

1961
01:59:14,600 --> 01:59:18,240
Speaker 13: So this was not received well as you would expect

1962
01:59:18,480 --> 01:59:22,400
Speaker 13: from whatever unhinged speech that was. He did apologize for

1963
01:59:22,480 --> 01:59:25,960
Speaker 13: imposing martial law, which is a very funny place to

1964
01:59:26,160 --> 01:59:27,880
Speaker 13: end up, is like you try to do a coup

1965
01:59:27,880 --> 01:59:29,880
Speaker 13: and then you have to go on TV and apologize

1966
01:59:29,920 --> 01:59:31,560
Speaker 13: for trying to do the coup and also try to

1967
01:59:31,680 --> 01:59:34,560
Speaker 13: argue you didn't just try to do a coup. So

1968
01:59:34,720 --> 01:59:38,080
Speaker 13: this is received very poorly, as we sort of predicted, immediately,

1969
01:59:38,400 --> 01:59:41,320
Speaker 13: the opposition Democratic Party immediately tries to impeach you. And

1970
01:59:42,360 --> 01:59:44,520
Speaker 13: from the way the headlines kind of work in the West,

1971
01:59:44,560 --> 01:59:46,080
Speaker 13: and from the way this is being talked about, and

1972
01:59:46,160 --> 01:59:48,640
Speaker 13: even from the way this episode sort of opened, you'd

1973
01:59:48,720 --> 01:59:52,000
Speaker 13: think that this impeachment vote was how we got impeached.

1974
01:59:52,400 --> 01:59:56,240
Speaker 13: But no, no, the first impeachment vote is not how

1975
01:59:56,400 --> 02:00:01,880
Speaker 13: Un gets impeached. Everything is way weirder than that. Now

1976
02:00:02,840 --> 02:00:06,200
Speaker 13: Yun's party, the People's Power Party, which is henceforth going

1977
02:00:06,240 --> 02:00:08,120
Speaker 13: to be called the PPP because I am not going

1978
02:00:08,200 --> 02:00:10,760
Speaker 13: to say the words People Power Party over and over again.

1979
02:00:10,840 --> 02:00:11,280
Speaker 4: Good lord.

1980
02:00:11,920 --> 02:00:14,280
Speaker 13: The PPP get a lot of credit from people outside

1981
02:00:14,280 --> 02:00:16,400
Speaker 13: of South Korea for like, you know, some of their

1982
02:00:16,440 --> 02:00:20,040
Speaker 13: members legitimately did show up to Parliament to vote against

1983
02:00:20,080 --> 02:00:23,000
Speaker 13: the martial law declaration, and at the time in the

1984
02:00:23,080 --> 02:00:25,520
Speaker 13: last episode, I said, that's bullshit. You don't get credit

1985
02:00:25,600 --> 02:00:28,480
Speaker 13: for voting against martial law. And also like most of

1986
02:00:28,560 --> 02:00:32,080
Speaker 13: them weren't there, and I kind of got shipped for this,

1987
02:00:32,520 --> 02:00:36,320
Speaker 13: And I have been absolutely one hundred percent vindicated because

1988
02:00:36,640 --> 02:00:38,720
Speaker 13: the piece are vote, the first one rolls around, The

1989
02:00:38,720 --> 02:00:42,320
Speaker 13: first one happens very quickly after the first coup, right, well,

1990
02:00:42,360 --> 02:00:44,560
Speaker 13: the first QUP hopefully the only coup, hopefully is not

1991
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:47,440
Speaker 13: a second cue, but it happens very quickly, and Okay,

1992
02:00:47,480 --> 02:00:50,120
Speaker 13: so the vote rolls around, and the entire PPP, the

1993
02:00:50,360 --> 02:00:54,480
Speaker 13: entire party except maybe like two people just walk out

1994
02:00:54,520 --> 02:00:56,880
Speaker 13: of the chambers, and because they walk out of the chambers,

1995
02:00:56,920 --> 02:00:58,960
Speaker 13: the vote fails because they don't they don't have quorum.

1996
02:00:59,000 --> 02:01:00,800
Speaker 13: If you don't have quorum, is like there's like a

1997
02:01:00,880 --> 02:01:03,080
Speaker 13: minimum number of members that has to be in attendance

1998
02:01:03,280 --> 02:01:06,000
Speaker 13: for whatever you're doing to be legal to stop like

1999
02:01:06,040 --> 02:01:07,440
Speaker 13: two people from showing up in the middle of the

2000
02:01:07,520 --> 02:01:09,720
Speaker 13: night and being like, aha, i am the Parliament. We've

2001
02:01:09,760 --> 02:01:12,760
Speaker 13: just passed this like order that makes me dictator or whatever.

2002
02:01:13,920 --> 02:01:17,640
Speaker 13: And again the entire PPP just walks out and they leave,

2003
02:01:17,800 --> 02:01:20,040
Speaker 13: and the vote fails because the PPP managed to whip

2004
02:01:20,120 --> 02:01:23,920
Speaker 13: basically its entire membership into trying to keep Uni in power.

2005
02:01:33,480 --> 02:01:36,480
Speaker 13: And here begins the what the fuck is going on

2006
02:01:36,720 --> 02:01:39,760
Speaker 13: part of this episode because A all reports we have

2007
02:01:40,000 --> 02:01:42,120
Speaker 13: suggest that Yun was planning to have the leadership, but

2008
02:01:42,200 --> 02:01:46,160
Speaker 13: the PPP arrested, and B he just literally tried to

2009
02:01:46,200 --> 02:01:49,280
Speaker 13: do a coup and they're still backing him. And see

2010
02:01:49,520 --> 02:01:52,800
Speaker 13: we stumble into a very very thorty question that I

2011
02:01:53,200 --> 02:01:56,160
Speaker 13: saw from people in Korea, like the moment after all

2012
02:01:56,200 --> 02:01:58,440
Speaker 13: this stuff happens, but didn't really hit the western press

2013
02:01:58,520 --> 02:02:01,640
Speaker 13: until later, if at all, didn't really hit like the

2014
02:02:01,760 --> 02:02:04,880
Speaker 13: mainstream consciousness. And this question will become a parent in

2015
02:02:04,920 --> 02:02:08,760
Speaker 13: a second. So here's from the Guardian. Senior PPP politicians

2016
02:02:08,800 --> 02:02:12,440
Speaker 13: have claimed you can continue as president while delegating his

2017
02:02:12,600 --> 02:02:16,280
Speaker 13: powers to the Prime Minister. An arrangement Park. That's Park

2018
02:02:16,320 --> 02:02:19,520
Speaker 13: Schoon Day, who's a very powerful Democratic Party politician. An

2019
02:02:19,600 --> 02:02:23,800
Speaker 13: arrangement Park described as quote a blatant constitutional violation.

2020
02:02:23,640 --> 02:02:26,520
Speaker 4: With no legal basis. Now this is true.

2021
02:02:26,680 --> 02:02:29,720
Speaker 13: What Park is saying is right, right, and the fact

2022
02:02:29,760 --> 02:02:32,320
Speaker 13: that the Guardian is saying like that their way of

2023
02:02:32,360 --> 02:02:36,680
Speaker 13: framing this is Oh, the opposition party person says that

2024
02:02:36,800 --> 02:02:39,920
Speaker 13: this is a blatant violation of constitutional law with no

2025
02:02:40,080 --> 02:02:42,720
Speaker 13: legal basis. That's not just a thing that he says, like,

2026
02:02:42,800 --> 02:02:46,280
Speaker 13: this is true, Like there is no legal mechanism for well,

2027
02:02:46,360 --> 02:02:49,080
Speaker 13: we don't want to impeach our presidents. But also he

2028
02:02:49,200 --> 02:02:50,960
Speaker 13: just tried to do a coup, so is said, we're

2029
02:02:50,960 --> 02:02:52,320
Speaker 13: going to take his powers away and give it to

2030
02:02:52,320 --> 02:02:54,040
Speaker 13: the Prime minister so he can still serve without us

2031
02:02:54,040 --> 02:02:56,000
Speaker 13: impeaching him. Like, that's not a thing. You can't do this,

2032
02:02:56,320 --> 02:02:59,440
Speaker 13: there's no mechanism for this. The Democratic Party people are

2033
02:02:59,520 --> 02:03:02,080
Speaker 13: just completely correct here. But because for some reason the

2034
02:03:02,080 --> 02:03:04,040
Speaker 13: Guardian feels it, I mean, it's the Guardian right, like,

2035
02:03:04,080 --> 02:03:06,800
Speaker 13: but they feel it necessary to sort of both sides again,

2036
02:03:06,920 --> 02:03:07,720
Speaker 13: a fucking coup.

2037
02:03:08,400 --> 02:03:12,600
Speaker 4: This is where we are. Here's more from the Guardian quote.

2038
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:16,560
Speaker 13: The leader of the PPP, Hondung Hun, said at the

2039
02:03:16,640 --> 02:03:19,360
Speaker 13: weekend that Yun would not be involved in foreign and

2040
02:03:19,480 --> 02:03:22,920
Speaker 13: other state affairs, with control of the administration shifting to

2041
02:03:23,000 --> 02:03:27,760
Speaker 13: the Prime Minister. Hon Duk su Han said Yun's televised

2042
02:03:27,800 --> 02:03:30,520
Speaker 13: apology was effectively a promise to leave office.

2043
02:03:30,640 --> 02:03:31,760
Speaker 4: Now, no, it wasn't.

2044
02:03:32,240 --> 02:03:33,880
Speaker 8: It was not a promise to leave office.

2045
02:03:34,040 --> 02:03:36,120
Speaker 13: What the fuck are you talking about? Like, everyone could

2046
02:03:36,160 --> 02:03:38,080
Speaker 13: just go listen to his apology. He didn't say that.

2047
02:03:38,160 --> 02:03:40,160
Speaker 13: He did not say he was gonna leave office, right

2048
02:03:40,440 --> 02:03:42,520
Speaker 13: and no, hell he says it's effectively a promise to

2049
02:03:42,600 --> 02:03:43,040
Speaker 13: leave office.

2050
02:03:43,040 --> 02:03:43,960
Speaker 4: But it simply isn't.

2051
02:03:44,080 --> 02:03:44,200
Speaker 9: Right.

2052
02:03:44,240 --> 02:03:47,640
Speaker 13: Everyone could just see this and again, like you know, okay, So,

2053
02:03:47,720 --> 02:03:49,400
Speaker 13: like the thing that the thing that the PvP is

2054
02:03:49,440 --> 02:03:51,640
Speaker 13: trying to do, right, the BVP is trying to have

2055
02:03:52,320 --> 02:03:55,880
Speaker 13: their prime minister like gain control of of the administration. Now,

2056
02:03:56,240 --> 02:03:58,760
Speaker 13: there is a mechanism to do this under the constitution.

2057
02:03:58,880 --> 02:04:01,560
Speaker 13: It's called impeachment. I think it happens where you get impeached,

2058
02:04:01,720 --> 02:04:01,920
Speaker 13: is that.

2059
02:04:01,960 --> 02:04:03,000
Speaker 4: You get kicked out of office.

2060
02:04:03,080 --> 02:04:04,520
Speaker 13: As we're gonna get to this later, but you get

2061
02:04:04,560 --> 02:04:06,400
Speaker 13: kicked out of office and the prime minister gets put

2062
02:04:06,440 --> 02:04:09,480
Speaker 13: into power and this happens until this pre court decides

2063
02:04:09,520 --> 02:04:12,320
Speaker 13: whether whether whether your impeachment should go through it or not. Right, So,

2064
02:04:12,480 --> 02:04:14,680
Speaker 13: like there's a mechanism for this, but the PvP doesn't

2065
02:04:14,720 --> 02:04:17,920
Speaker 13: want to like impeach union, but they also don't want

2066
02:04:18,040 --> 02:04:21,080
Speaker 13: him seemingly running the country because he appears to be

2067
02:04:21,360 --> 02:04:24,400
Speaker 13: like absolutely unhinged and just again declared martial law and

2068
02:04:24,480 --> 02:04:25,720
Speaker 13: tried to knock off the legislature.

2069
02:04:26,040 --> 02:04:28,120
Speaker 4: So you have this, you have this whole sort of

2070
02:04:28,760 --> 02:04:29,919
Speaker 4: steaming mess.

2071
02:04:29,720 --> 02:04:31,520
Speaker 13: Of a situation where the PvP is trying to like

2072
02:04:31,600 --> 02:04:34,720
Speaker 13: have it both ways of like not having union power

2073
02:04:34,800 --> 02:04:38,560
Speaker 13: but also not impeaching him. But this also begs one

2074
02:04:39,240 --> 02:04:44,080
Speaker 13: very important question, whula fuck was running the country between

2075
02:04:44,600 --> 02:04:45,120
Speaker 13: the first.

2076
02:04:44,960 --> 02:04:48,280
Speaker 4: Appiachment vote and the second one. No one knows, No

2077
02:04:48,360 --> 02:04:50,040
Speaker 4: one knows who was running this fucking country.

2078
02:04:50,240 --> 02:04:52,680
Speaker 13: This is a country with fifty one million people, and

2079
02:04:52,800 --> 02:04:55,720
Speaker 13: nobody knew who was fucking running the country. And this

2080
02:04:56,160 --> 02:05:00,200
Speaker 13: this barely made the news. I'm going insane, How how, why?

2081
02:05:00,520 --> 02:05:03,080
Speaker 13: Why is this a thing that just like completely disappeared

2082
02:05:03,120 --> 02:05:05,480
Speaker 13: beneath the fucking like chatter of the news waves. This

2083
02:05:05,680 --> 02:05:10,880
Speaker 13: just vanished entirely. And speaking of vanishing entirely, we were

2084
02:05:10,960 --> 02:05:15,560
Speaker 13: gonna vanish entirely to do these ads.

2085
02:05:25,520 --> 02:05:28,160
Speaker 4: And we are back.

2086
02:05:28,880 --> 02:05:31,760
Speaker 13: So, as you would imagine from a situation where again

2087
02:05:31,840 --> 02:05:35,080
Speaker 13: you have a country, you're fifty one million people, where

2088
02:05:35,320 --> 02:05:38,200
Speaker 13: no one knows who is running the country, things have

2089
02:05:38,400 --> 02:05:41,520
Speaker 13: been extremely chaotic. So you know, we covered in the

2090
02:05:41,600 --> 02:05:44,080
Speaker 13: last episode that like a bunch of ministers were resigning,

2091
02:05:44,240 --> 02:05:47,240
Speaker 13: right because you know, they had just taken part in

2092
02:05:47,280 --> 02:05:50,080
Speaker 13: a coup and they were like, well, shit, the ex

2093
02:05:50,160 --> 02:05:52,120
Speaker 13: defense minister, who's one of the people who's been sort

2094
02:05:52,160 --> 02:05:55,560
Speaker 13: of implicated as being like saying that he's to a

2095
02:05:55,640 --> 02:05:57,720
Speaker 13: large step behind the coup, like is true. But I mean,

2096
02:05:57,720 --> 02:06:01,720
Speaker 13: this is a cooperative effort between un the Defense minister

2097
02:06:02,000 --> 02:06:03,600
Speaker 13: and a bunch of the people in the army, and

2098
02:06:03,760 --> 02:06:06,560
Speaker 13: the defense minister who resigned in disgrace like got thrown

2099
02:06:06,600 --> 02:06:10,880
Speaker 13: in jail. So that's fucking wild, Like you just got

2100
02:06:11,040 --> 02:06:14,840
Speaker 13: like arrested by the police. A bunch of testimony also

2101
02:06:14,880 --> 02:06:18,240
Speaker 13: has come out from the National Assembly investigation, which I'm

2102
02:06:18,280 --> 02:06:22,360
Speaker 13: not covering much of the testimony from the National Assembly

2103
02:06:22,920 --> 02:06:28,960
Speaker 13: investigation because it's really unclear exactly how reputable all this

2104
02:06:29,040 --> 02:06:33,840
Speaker 13: stuff is because a lot of people are just saying shit, right,

2105
02:06:34,480 --> 02:06:36,520
Speaker 13: and some of it may be real. Some of it

2106
02:06:36,600 --> 02:06:39,120
Speaker 13: maybe some of that people have you know, obtained their sources,

2107
02:06:39,320 --> 02:06:43,240
Speaker 13: but some of it's probably not. But like to get

2108
02:06:43,280 --> 02:06:45,480
Speaker 13: a sense of like the kind of stuff that is

2109
02:06:45,560 --> 02:06:48,839
Speaker 13: coming out in this investigation, one of the big claims

2110
02:06:49,040 --> 02:06:50,960
Speaker 13: was from I think it's from like a TV host

2111
02:06:51,000 --> 02:06:53,680
Speaker 13: who claimed he got texted it by a guy in

2112
02:06:53,720 --> 02:06:56,720
Speaker 13: the army, but apparently he was saying that the plan

2113
02:06:57,000 --> 02:06:58,720
Speaker 13: by union in the army, the plan was to have

2114
02:06:58,920 --> 02:07:02,560
Speaker 13: the head of the PPP called and then drop a

2115
02:07:02,840 --> 02:07:06,480
Speaker 13: North Korean uniform nearby to like do a false flag

2116
02:07:06,560 --> 02:07:14,880
Speaker 13: and implicate North Korean special forces. Now this is unbelievably unhinged, right,

2117
02:07:15,440 --> 02:07:20,280
Speaker 13: what the fuck? And it probably isn't true, but you know,

2118
02:07:20,360 --> 02:07:23,960
Speaker 13: the source isn't great, But like who knows, right, Like,

2119
02:07:24,040 --> 02:07:26,120
Speaker 13: we don't actually know if they're playing to do this

2120
02:07:26,200 --> 02:07:27,680
Speaker 13: and fucked it up, or if they weren't playing to

2121
02:07:27,760 --> 02:07:29,800
Speaker 13: do this, or if this person is this person just lying,

2122
02:07:29,840 --> 02:07:33,000
Speaker 13: this person did get this text, but the person was misinformed.

2123
02:07:33,040 --> 02:07:34,880
Speaker 13: We don't know if this is just like misinformation that's

2124
02:07:34,880 --> 02:07:38,080
Speaker 13: being spread around. This is a good demonstration of what

2125
02:07:38,320 --> 02:07:42,800
Speaker 13: the sort of chaos of this moment has been. And

2126
02:07:43,040 --> 02:07:44,840
Speaker 13: you know, and there's been a lot of other stuff

2127
02:07:44,880 --> 02:07:48,839
Speaker 13: that I think in any other time and place probably

2128
02:07:49,000 --> 02:07:53,160
Speaker 13: would have been like front page news. So one of

2129
02:07:53,480 --> 02:07:55,280
Speaker 13: the things that happens in this whole process is that

2130
02:07:55,360 --> 02:07:57,920
Speaker 13: the South Korean police tried to raid the house of

2131
02:07:58,000 --> 02:08:01,040
Speaker 13: the president, and you know, like as as part of

2132
02:08:01,080 --> 02:08:04,560
Speaker 13: their investigation, there's a whole thing where Union's been ordered

2133
02:08:04,720 --> 02:08:07,920
Speaker 13: by like the investigatorial services to not leave the country

2134
02:08:08,320 --> 02:08:11,720
Speaker 13: because he's just actively under investigation for this military coup

2135
02:08:11,840 --> 02:08:15,040
Speaker 13: being illegal by just like the regular ass police. And

2136
02:08:15,120 --> 02:08:17,080
Speaker 13: so South Korean police like try to raid his house

2137
02:08:17,320 --> 02:08:19,720
Speaker 13: and they can't do it because the South Korean equivalent

2138
02:08:19,760 --> 02:08:22,000
Speaker 13: of the Secret Service stops them from doing the raid.

2139
02:08:22,680 --> 02:08:25,560
Speaker 13: And this in and of itself is something that like

2140
02:08:25,800 --> 02:08:30,760
Speaker 13: again would be a giant news headline at any other

2141
02:08:30,840 --> 02:08:33,160
Speaker 13: point in time, and it's just been completely lost, and

2142
02:08:33,240 --> 02:08:37,000
Speaker 13: it's like it's not sort of clear right now how

2143
02:08:37,280 --> 02:08:40,200
Speaker 13: this is all sort of going to play out, and

2144
02:08:40,360 --> 02:08:42,320
Speaker 13: whether the police are going to be able to do this,

2145
02:08:42,680 --> 02:08:45,760
Speaker 13: and you know, what's actually gonna happen to you un

2146
02:08:46,040 --> 02:08:48,320
Speaker 13: after he presumably leaves office. I mean, I guess the

2147
02:08:48,360 --> 02:08:51,400
Speaker 13: Streme Court could save him, but like, you know, there's

2148
02:08:51,440 --> 02:08:53,480
Speaker 13: a real chance that he and we're going to get

2149
02:08:53,480 --> 02:08:55,120
Speaker 13: into this morning a second, there's a real chance that

2150
02:08:55,320 --> 02:08:58,320
Speaker 13: he just like fucking goes to prison, right and unlike

2151
02:08:58,360 --> 02:08:59,960
Speaker 13: the last president who was going to move from office,

2152
02:09:00,400 --> 02:09:03,680
Speaker 13: like I can't imagine him getting pardoned by the next

2153
02:09:03,720 --> 02:09:08,560
Speaker 13: administration because that was merely an unhinged corruption scandal involving

2154
02:09:08,600 --> 02:09:12,520
Speaker 13: the president of South Korea being under the influence of

2155
02:09:12,560 --> 02:09:14,240
Speaker 13: a shaman and doing.

2156
02:09:14,080 --> 02:09:16,600
Speaker 4: A bunch of corruption that did a bunch of horrible shit.

2157
02:09:16,880 --> 02:09:20,800
Speaker 13: But this is, you know, this is like he tried

2158
02:09:20,840 --> 02:09:23,680
Speaker 13: to do a coup, right, So it's sort of unclear

2159
02:09:23,800 --> 02:09:25,440
Speaker 13: if he's going to get saved from that. It does

2160
02:09:25,520 --> 02:09:28,720
Speaker 13: seem very likely that he's going to face a bunch

2161
02:09:28,760 --> 02:09:31,880
Speaker 13: of charges for this because everyone is unbelievably pissed off.

2162
02:09:32,960 --> 02:09:37,200
Speaker 13: Here's from DW. On Monday, former head of Special Warfare

2163
02:09:37,280 --> 02:09:41,440
Speaker 13: Command Kwak Jung Gwyn and former head of the Capitol

2164
02:09:41,520 --> 02:09:46,000
Speaker 13: Defense Command Legion Wu were arrested on charges of deploying

2165
02:09:46,720 --> 02:09:50,839
Speaker 13: military personnel to the parliament. Former chief of the Defense

2166
02:09:50,960 --> 02:09:55,800
Speaker 13: Counterintelligence Command Yo En Hung has been accused of orchestrating

2167
02:09:55,840 --> 02:09:59,480
Speaker 13: the implementation of martial law, and Army Chief Park Ensiu

2168
02:09:59,600 --> 02:10:03,200
Speaker 13: has been s suspended from his role. Yun's former Defense

2169
02:10:03,280 --> 02:10:06,920
Speaker 13: Minister Kim Yung hyun, who stepped down immediately following the

2170
02:10:07,200 --> 02:10:11,080
Speaker 13: boarded martial law declaration, and former Interior Minister Lee Song

2171
02:10:11,200 --> 02:10:15,560
Speaker 13: Men also face investigations. So what we're seeing here effectively, right,

2172
02:10:15,720 --> 02:10:17,760
Speaker 13: is the house cleaning of the ranks of the Korean

2173
02:10:17,800 --> 02:10:20,160
Speaker 13: military who've been involved with this whole thing, right, and

2174
02:10:20,240 --> 02:10:23,360
Speaker 13: they're going through a lot of different people. Part of

2175
02:10:23,400 --> 02:10:25,839
Speaker 13: this is also clearing out some of like the clicks

2176
02:10:25,880 --> 02:10:29,400
Speaker 13: in the military who've been sort of backing Yun and

2177
02:10:29,440 --> 02:10:32,400
Speaker 13: who people have suspected have been a bunch of people

2178
02:10:32,480 --> 02:10:33,400
Speaker 13: behind a lot.

2179
02:10:33,360 --> 02:10:37,520
Speaker 4: Of this stuff. And this is a good and necessary process.

2180
02:10:37,600 --> 02:10:40,000
Speaker 13: The entire time this has been going on, everyone has

2181
02:10:40,040 --> 02:10:43,360
Speaker 13: been terrified of the possibility of a second coup and

2182
02:10:43,520 --> 02:10:45,600
Speaker 13: the only way to avoid that in the short term

2183
02:10:45,720 --> 02:10:48,640
Speaker 13: is to remove the senior leadership of the military and

2184
02:10:48,920 --> 02:10:50,800
Speaker 13: get them away from their troops. They don't have the

2185
02:10:50,880 --> 02:10:53,400
Speaker 13: ability to sort of plan anything, and sometimes this can

2186
02:10:53,440 --> 02:10:55,920
Speaker 13: make people just go for it, right Like that, that's

2187
02:10:55,960 --> 02:11:00,440
Speaker 13: what happens in Bolivia. It looks like where the oblivion

2188
02:11:00,520 --> 02:11:02,320
Speaker 13: qu was a product of, you know, people trying to

2189
02:11:02,400 --> 02:11:04,880
Speaker 13: do house cleaning and get rid of military guys before

2190
02:11:04,920 --> 02:11:06,680
Speaker 13: they did a coup, and so that this makes them

2191
02:11:06,720 --> 02:11:10,360
Speaker 13: go off half cocked, and like, you know, that's a

2192
02:11:10,480 --> 02:11:12,760
Speaker 13: bad situation for I mean, it's bad situation for everyone

2193
02:11:12,800 --> 02:11:14,160
Speaker 13: that says that there's a coup happening, but it's a

2194
02:11:14,160 --> 02:11:17,320
Speaker 13: bad situation, especially for the military, because they don't have

2195
02:11:17,440 --> 02:11:20,160
Speaker 13: their coup preparations in place, so it's easier to knock

2196
02:11:20,240 --> 02:11:23,240
Speaker 13: them off. But what's interesting about this too is that

2197
02:11:23,320 --> 02:11:25,800
Speaker 13: to a large extent, we're seeing other parts of the

2198
02:11:25,920 --> 02:11:30,960
Speaker 13: Korean state like really go after the military, right, And

2199
02:11:31,680 --> 02:11:33,920
Speaker 13: this I don't know, I mean, like I'm hoping this

2200
02:11:34,120 --> 02:11:38,040
Speaker 13: kind of like has a precedent inside of the sort

2201
02:11:38,080 --> 02:11:41,640
Speaker 13: of Korean like liberal democratic societal norms that like, you

2202
02:11:42,120 --> 02:11:48,240
Speaker 13: can't let this just unhinged military do all of this stuff.

2203
02:11:48,920 --> 02:11:51,520
Speaker 13: That the precedent of this sort of like military house cleaning,

2204
02:11:51,680 --> 02:11:54,760
Speaker 13: I think is a good one, Right, this is.

2205
02:11:54,800 --> 02:11:56,800
Speaker 4: Going to be a rare, a rare.

2206
02:11:57,000 --> 02:12:00,960
Speaker 13: Mia agrees with the people who founded the US moment

2207
02:12:01,080 --> 02:12:03,800
Speaker 13: because oh my god, those people suck shit like a

2208
02:12:03,840 --> 02:12:06,960
Speaker 13: bunch of slave owning, gedicidal bassards. But you know, one

2209
02:12:06,960 --> 02:12:08,880
Speaker 13: of the things that they were right about is the

2210
02:12:08,960 --> 02:12:13,480
Speaker 13: political danger to any democratic system of having a standing army, right,

2211
02:12:14,120 --> 02:12:16,680
Speaker 13: and especially when you have set a standing army that's

2212
02:12:16,720 --> 02:12:18,880
Speaker 13: like permanently on a semi war footing. The way the

2213
02:12:18,920 --> 02:12:22,360
Speaker 13: South Korea is is there's always a real political risk

2214
02:12:22,440 --> 02:12:25,360
Speaker 13: that they attempt to seize power and you have to

2215
02:12:25,480 --> 02:12:29,080
Speaker 13: fucking stop them from doing that. And ideally you just

2216
02:12:29,280 --> 02:12:32,000
Speaker 13: fucking acts as much of it as you possibly can, right,

2217
02:12:32,040 --> 02:12:33,560
Speaker 13: And I mean I think you should act. You acts

2218
02:12:33,560 --> 02:12:35,440
Speaker 13: the entire political system to make sure this doesn't happen.

2219
02:12:35,920 --> 02:12:38,120
Speaker 13: But you know, this is a this is hopefully a

2220
02:12:38,200 --> 02:12:41,240
Speaker 13: good first step. I also want to mention that the

2221
02:12:41,400 --> 02:12:44,480
Speaker 13: specific charge of insurrection is being thrown at a lot

2222
02:12:44,520 --> 02:12:48,040
Speaker 13: of these people and also at Un himself, and like

2223
02:12:48,680 --> 02:12:52,520
Speaker 13: he absolutely did it, right, Like, there's not much of

2224
02:12:52,520 --> 02:12:56,920
Speaker 13: a dispute that he did in fact do an insurrection

2225
02:12:57,160 --> 02:12:59,880
Speaker 13: under under sort of Korean law, and this technically like

2226
02:13:00,240 --> 02:13:01,920
Speaker 13: carries the death penalty, but I.

2227
02:13:02,560 --> 02:13:03,720
Speaker 4: Don't think they're gonna kill him.

2228
02:13:03,760 --> 02:13:07,040
Speaker 13: But you know, this is the sort of severity of

2229
02:13:07,520 --> 02:13:11,600
Speaker 13: this stuff under the Korean legal system. And Okay, so,

2230
02:13:11,760 --> 02:13:14,160
Speaker 13: like all of this fucking chaos happening, right, And eventually

2231
02:13:14,200 --> 02:13:17,880
Speaker 13: there's a second impeachment vote, and this time the public

2232
02:13:17,960 --> 02:13:21,480
Speaker 13: pressure is enough that the PPP stays in the chamber

2233
02:13:21,560 --> 02:13:26,240
Speaker 13: to vote no, and only about a dozen Like per MPR,

2234
02:13:26,360 --> 02:13:30,040
Speaker 13: only about a dozen PPP lawmakers actually vote to impeach

2235
02:13:30,120 --> 02:13:33,520
Speaker 13: the guy who just tried to have their fucking parliament disbanded,

2236
02:13:34,440 --> 02:13:36,000
Speaker 13: you know. And this is like one of the really

2237
02:13:36,040 --> 02:13:38,600
Speaker 13: depressing things about this, right, even after everything, right, and

2238
02:13:38,680 --> 02:13:40,960
Speaker 13: this is something that we can trace back to sort

2239
02:13:40,960 --> 02:13:44,640
Speaker 13: of the roots of the conservatism of the PPP even

2240
02:13:44,720 --> 02:13:47,400
Speaker 13: after all of this shit, right, Like, these people still

2241
02:13:47,480 --> 02:13:53,200
Speaker 13: backed him. And that's a really really grim and depressing thing.

2242
02:13:54,360 --> 02:13:56,080
Speaker 13: And part of the reaction to this has been from

2243
02:13:56,120 --> 02:13:58,200
Speaker 13: the South Korean trade Union Movement, which has been calling

2244
02:13:58,240 --> 02:14:00,360
Speaker 13: for just to straight up the disbanding of the PPP

2245
02:14:00,440 --> 02:14:03,400
Speaker 13: as a political party, right, And that's something that I

2246
02:14:03,440 --> 02:14:07,360
Speaker 13: think is extremely reasonable. Again, if your party's president tries

2247
02:14:07,440 --> 02:14:09,960
Speaker 13: to do a military coup, I think I think you

2248
02:14:09,960 --> 02:14:11,960
Speaker 13: shouldn't be allowed to have a party anymore.

2249
02:14:12,480 --> 02:14:16,000
Speaker 4: This is the liberal opinions, right, Okay.

2250
02:14:16,040 --> 02:14:20,880
Speaker 13: So like eventually this vote does go through, and the

2251
02:14:20,960 --> 02:14:23,040
Speaker 13: stage that we're at right now is that, Okay, so

2252
02:14:23,160 --> 02:14:26,400
Speaker 13: once you get impeached by the National Assembly, you're suspended

2253
02:14:26,440 --> 02:14:29,320
Speaker 13: from all your duties and the Prime Minister takes power.

2254
02:14:29,640 --> 02:14:31,560
Speaker 13: So it's happening right now is he doesn't have any

2255
02:14:31,680 --> 02:14:34,920
Speaker 13: power formally, but we're still in this sort of holding period.

2256
02:14:35,040 --> 02:14:37,000
Speaker 13: We're waiting for the Supreme Court to weigh in and

2257
02:14:37,120 --> 02:14:41,040
Speaker 13: either like approve the impeachment or not. And that's kind

2258
02:14:41,040 --> 02:14:45,800
Speaker 13: of where things stand now after an unbelievably unhinged week

2259
02:14:45,840 --> 02:14:50,680
Speaker 13: at a half of just everything being extremely unboud two weeks,

2260
02:14:50,720 --> 02:14:55,680
Speaker 13: I guess everything being just unbelievably extremely weird. And yeah,

2261
02:14:55,760 --> 02:14:58,840
Speaker 13: but I think I think there is a mild hopeful note,

2262
02:14:58,920 --> 02:15:01,120
Speaker 13: which is that like, if if you fight back against

2263
02:15:01,160 --> 02:15:04,280
Speaker 13: these people, they can be defeated. It sucks, but you

2264
02:15:04,360 --> 02:15:07,840
Speaker 13: can eventually get them to crumble. And all I can

2265
02:15:07,920 --> 02:15:09,960
Speaker 13: really say for this is I hope the South Korean

2266
02:15:10,000 --> 02:15:14,400
Speaker 13: people prevail over the shitty military dictators, and I hope

2267
02:15:14,600 --> 02:15:18,280
Speaker 13: that we too are able to sort of prevail in

2268
02:15:18,400 --> 02:15:21,120
Speaker 13: the US against our sort of equivalents of these forces.

2269
02:15:42,560 --> 02:15:44,800
Speaker 13: Welcome to It could happen here a podcast that I

2270
02:15:44,880 --> 02:15:46,480
Speaker 13: introduced the same way almost every time.

2271
02:15:46,520 --> 02:15:46,840
Speaker 10: I don't know.

2272
02:15:46,920 --> 02:15:50,040
Speaker 13: You listen to the show, right, you're listening at like

2273
02:15:50,920 --> 02:15:53,640
Speaker 13: some point in the future, you probably know the things

2274
02:15:53,680 --> 02:15:55,480
Speaker 13: fall like apart putting back together again intro.

2275
02:15:55,760 --> 02:15:56,400
Speaker 4: I don't have to do it.

2276
02:15:56,880 --> 02:15:58,960
Speaker 13: We are doing something that we have done before, and

2277
02:15:59,000 --> 02:16:00,880
Speaker 13: I guess we'll continue to you, which is talking to

2278
02:16:01,000 --> 02:16:05,040
Speaker 13: other anarchist media projects about their work and how things

2279
02:16:05,080 --> 02:16:05,840
Speaker 13: are going, and.

2280
02:16:06,840 --> 02:16:10,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, the general why, how what of it all?

2281
02:16:11,120 --> 02:16:14,160
Speaker 13: And today we're talking with the Collective Anarchist Writers, and

2282
02:16:14,440 --> 02:16:17,520
Speaker 13: very specifically we're talking to Shirley Branson who is a writer,

2283
02:16:17,720 --> 02:16:21,000
Speaker 13: translator and teacher currently living in so called New York,

2284
02:16:21,600 --> 02:16:24,520
Speaker 13: Parla Joy Bergman who lives across the border in Canada

2285
02:16:24,600 --> 02:16:27,000
Speaker 13: and is a mom, writer, artist and loves crows.

2286
02:16:27,240 --> 02:16:27,760
Speaker 4: Very important.

2287
02:16:27,800 --> 02:16:29,280
Speaker 13: We'll be coming that back to that in a second.

2288
02:16:29,720 --> 02:16:33,080
Speaker 13: And Vicky Ostiwil, who is a worker, writer and agitator

2289
02:16:33,120 --> 02:16:35,320
Speaker 13: based in Philadelphia. And all three of you, welcome to

2290
02:16:35,400 --> 02:16:35,680
Speaker 13: the show.

2291
02:16:36,040 --> 02:16:38,840
Speaker 9: Hi, thanks for having us, Thanks so much for having us,

2292
02:16:38,959 --> 02:16:42,320
Speaker 9: for having us, love our project. Also, just wanted to

2293
02:16:42,760 --> 02:16:45,199
Speaker 9: give a shout out to our fourth member, Danny Berlison,

2294
02:16:45,200 --> 02:16:49,119
Speaker 9: who's not here today because she's working paid work, who

2295
02:16:49,320 --> 02:16:52,520
Speaker 9: just rounds us out so beautifully and wanted to say

2296
02:16:52,560 --> 02:16:52,920
Speaker 9: her name.

2297
02:16:53,560 --> 02:16:56,119
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about this, and partly I'm

2298
02:16:56,160 --> 02:16:59,360
Speaker 13: excited to talk about it because the acronym for this

2299
02:16:59,520 --> 02:17:02,040
Speaker 13: is caw and there's a whole crow theme going on

2300
02:17:02,360 --> 02:17:05,320
Speaker 13: and we love a crow here in Portland. It is

2301
02:17:05,640 --> 02:17:06,520
Speaker 13: maybe our big thing.

2302
02:17:07,560 --> 02:17:10,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm in Vancouver. Well I was in Vancouver just

2303
02:17:10,760 --> 02:17:14,720
Speaker 9: up from there, but Pacific Northwest, and so it's pro highway.

2304
02:17:14,920 --> 02:17:16,959
Speaker 9: You know, thousands and thousands of crows.

2305
02:17:17,560 --> 02:17:19,800
Speaker 14: Oh yeah, I got it. I think the crow is

2306
02:17:19,920 --> 02:17:24,279
Speaker 14: like what ultimately sealed the project for us, honestly, Yeah, hell.

2307
02:17:24,240 --> 02:17:24,920
Speaker 4: Yeah it was.

2308
02:17:25,200 --> 02:17:28,640
Speaker 15: It really came together around around the Corvid theme, I think.

2309
02:17:28,760 --> 02:17:28,960
Speaker 16: Yeah.

2310
02:17:29,120 --> 02:17:33,359
Speaker 15: Yeah, in the combination of enjoying shiny things, extreme intelligence,

2311
02:17:33,440 --> 02:17:35,640
Speaker 15: and never ending spite, I think are all sort of

2312
02:17:35,720 --> 02:17:36,600
Speaker 15: motivating factors for.

2313
02:17:36,600 --> 02:17:37,040
Speaker 1: All of us.

2314
02:17:37,120 --> 02:17:41,560
Speaker 9: So yeah, and that there are collective and have meetings

2315
02:17:41,760 --> 02:17:42,720
Speaker 9: often throughout.

2316
02:17:42,440 --> 02:17:46,040
Speaker 14: The day, a collective called a murder which is also

2317
02:17:46,120 --> 02:17:46,840
Speaker 14: pretty badass.

2318
02:17:49,200 --> 02:17:51,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a huge thing in Portland. We have the

2319
02:17:51,840 --> 02:17:52,480
Speaker 4: Mega Murder.

2320
02:17:53,040 --> 02:17:55,800
Speaker 13: So every every like morning, all the crows sort of

2321
02:17:55,800 --> 02:17:58,280
Speaker 13: fly off into their different like little murders and they

2322
02:17:58,360 --> 02:18:00,240
Speaker 13: go you know, they go out and hang out in

2323
02:18:00,280 --> 02:18:03,560
Speaker 13: the city, and then at a round sunset every day,

2324
02:18:03,720 --> 02:18:06,040
Speaker 13: all of the crows fly back into the city. They

2325
02:18:06,120 --> 02:18:08,760
Speaker 13: have their like giant mega murdering meeting. There's thousands and

2326
02:18:08,840 --> 02:18:10,480
Speaker 13: thousands of them. You know, you look up and you

2327
02:18:10,560 --> 02:18:13,000
Speaker 13: just see them like the herds like that, the murders

2328
02:18:13,000 --> 02:18:15,520
Speaker 13: of crows flying past. And if you there's different spots

2329
02:18:15,560 --> 02:18:17,400
Speaker 13: in Portland where you can just go see all of

2330
02:18:17,600 --> 02:18:21,760
Speaker 13: the all all all the crows hanging out and you know,

2331
02:18:21,920 --> 02:18:24,879
Speaker 13: doing doing doing whatever the things crows do. When literally

2332
02:18:24,959 --> 02:18:27,560
Speaker 13: an entire cities where the crows gathered together every night.

2333
02:18:27,640 --> 02:18:29,519
Speaker 16: Oh no, it's a spokes council.

2334
02:18:31,120 --> 02:18:31,200
Speaker 1: But.

2335
02:18:32,680 --> 02:18:34,760
Speaker 13: It's all a spokes also because all of them are there,

2336
02:18:35,560 --> 02:18:36,480
Speaker 13: I feel like that's an assembly.

2337
02:18:37,520 --> 02:18:38,360
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah.

2338
02:18:38,520 --> 02:18:43,200
Speaker 9: Vancouver, it's called it's called the Crow Highway. Yeah, hell yeah,

2339
02:18:43,440 --> 02:18:46,080
Speaker 9: because it's so massive and goes forever and ever and

2340
02:18:46,160 --> 02:18:51,120
Speaker 9: ever to their roost. Brief story on crows and resistance.

2341
02:18:51,560 --> 02:18:54,880
Speaker 9: A really incredible story in Vancouver when a park was

2342
02:18:55,640 --> 02:18:59,120
Speaker 9: a colonial person created a park in the downtown which

2343
02:18:59,280 --> 02:19:02,120
Speaker 9: was like the placed a lot of Indigenous people in

2344
02:19:02,200 --> 02:19:05,920
Speaker 9: their homes and designed this park that was filled with

2345
02:19:06,000 --> 02:19:09,440
Speaker 9: crows as well. They also brought in animals from Europe

2346
02:19:09,480 --> 02:19:12,760
Speaker 9: as well to make it pretty, and the crows made

2347
02:19:12,800 --> 02:19:16,960
Speaker 9: it really hard for these animals. And so the City

2348
02:19:17,080 --> 02:19:21,199
Speaker 9: of Vancouver for fifty years from nineteen hundred to nineteen

2349
02:19:21,280 --> 02:19:27,720
Speaker 9: fifty gave free range to the Vancouver gun people to

2350
02:19:27,840 --> 02:19:30,879
Speaker 9: go into the park and shoot crows every day, Oh

2351
02:19:30,959 --> 02:19:35,480
Speaker 9: my god. And when I see like the amount of

2352
02:19:35,560 --> 02:19:38,600
Speaker 9: crows that are still alive, it's just some metaphor for

2353
02:19:38,840 --> 02:19:42,280
Speaker 9: indigenous resilience, you know, like it's just so powerful. So

2354
02:19:42,360 --> 02:19:45,960
Speaker 9: it's another reason why I'm like interested in terms of

2355
02:19:46,000 --> 02:19:47,560
Speaker 9: where I was like living.

2356
02:19:47,920 --> 02:19:50,720
Speaker 14: As I've been gathering images for our project that I've

2357
02:19:50,800 --> 02:19:55,680
Speaker 14: been specifically trying to find images of crows attacking people

2358
02:19:56,040 --> 02:19:58,720
Speaker 14: because I think that's good. So it's like, you know,

2359
02:19:58,920 --> 02:20:01,000
Speaker 14: the follow up to what you were saying, Carla, is

2360
02:20:01,080 --> 02:20:02,360
Speaker 14: the crow's revenge.

2361
02:20:03,120 --> 02:20:03,280
Speaker 10: Yes.

2362
02:20:04,680 --> 02:20:04,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2363
02:20:04,920 --> 02:20:06,640
Speaker 13: One of the things that you know, you kind of

2364
02:20:06,680 --> 02:20:08,160
Speaker 13: have to do here in Portland is you have to

2365
02:20:08,280 --> 02:20:10,560
Speaker 13: kind of like negotiate with the crows. You have to

2366
02:20:10,680 --> 02:20:13,480
Speaker 13: like you leave them like peace offerings and you sort

2367
02:20:13,520 --> 02:20:16,040
Speaker 13: of you know, when your friends come, you let you

2368
02:20:16,120 --> 02:20:18,080
Speaker 13: introduce them to the crows or the crows know that

2369
02:20:18,160 --> 02:20:18,600
Speaker 13: you're okay.

2370
02:20:18,800 --> 02:20:20,640
Speaker 9: It's very sweet, shiny things.

2371
02:20:21,800 --> 02:20:23,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, we love a crow based society.

2372
02:20:24,000 --> 02:20:26,560
Speaker 13: And speaking of a crow based society, yeah, do you

2373
02:20:26,640 --> 02:20:28,920
Speaker 13: want to, I guess, give a brief sort of overview

2374
02:20:29,120 --> 02:20:31,959
Speaker 13: of what cause is before we get sort.

2375
02:20:31,760 --> 02:20:32,280
Speaker 4: Of more into it.

2376
02:20:33,040 --> 02:20:35,240
Speaker 15: Yeah, I'm happy to take a spin at that.

2377
02:20:35,360 --> 02:20:36,240
Speaker 1: As VICKI by the way.

2378
02:20:36,520 --> 02:20:38,280
Speaker 15: Yeah, So CAU is sort of like I mean, it's

2379
02:20:38,280 --> 02:20:41,400
Speaker 15: an anarchist journal of arts and culture that is a

2380
02:20:41,480 --> 02:20:45,119
Speaker 15: collective of anarchist writers. It's also a corved appreciation working group,

2381
02:20:45,160 --> 02:20:47,360
Speaker 15: and there's a lot of different acronyms for it. And

2382
02:20:48,160 --> 02:20:49,920
Speaker 15: what we are doing is we are bringing all for

2383
02:20:50,440 --> 02:20:53,520
Speaker 15: at first, just all four of our efforts together. So

2384
02:20:53,920 --> 02:20:56,120
Speaker 15: a lot of us work on separate podcasts, We have

2385
02:20:56,240 --> 02:20:59,640
Speaker 15: pedagological tasks, We have many activist projects at center around culture.

2386
02:21:00,120 --> 02:21:02,720
Speaker 15: You know, I have a newsletter, Surely has a Patreon,

2387
02:21:03,240 --> 02:21:06,600
Speaker 15: Kyla has a newsletter, Danny has has also has like

2388
02:21:06,600 --> 02:21:08,760
Speaker 15: an email list. There's just all these different projects, and

2389
02:21:09,840 --> 02:21:12,280
Speaker 15: we realize that, like for all of our talk about

2390
02:21:12,360 --> 02:21:15,480
Speaker 15: mutual aid and working collectively, when it comes to writing

2391
02:21:15,640 --> 02:21:19,760
Speaker 15: and creativity, the market has been so fractured and so

2392
02:21:19,920 --> 02:21:22,600
Speaker 15: alienated and sort of so turned into like everyone has

2393
02:21:22,600 --> 02:21:25,240
Speaker 15: an individual newsletter that they're competing with one another, you know,

2394
02:21:25,840 --> 02:21:27,360
Speaker 15: even though they don't want to be like they want

2395
02:21:27,400 --> 02:21:29,080
Speaker 15: to be. But that's sort of ultimately what's happening is

2396
02:21:29,120 --> 02:21:31,680
Speaker 15: that there's limited sort of customers and there's also this

2397
02:21:31,800 --> 02:21:35,040
Speaker 15: other trend going on right now of this really exciting

2398
02:21:35,120 --> 02:21:39,040
Speaker 15: kind of worker owned journals. A lot of them local journalisms.

2399
02:21:39,080 --> 02:21:41,200
Speaker 15: There's some in New York and Chicago, and there's one

2400
02:21:41,240 --> 02:21:43,640
Speaker 15: in Ashville and all over the country as well as

2401
02:21:43,680 --> 02:21:46,039
Speaker 15: like on special topics, so like Aftermath, which like does

2402
02:21:46,120 --> 02:21:47,680
Speaker 15: I think the other video games, and there's four or

2403
02:21:47,720 --> 02:21:49,760
Speaker 15: four media, it does tech. There's just like all these

2404
02:21:49,800 --> 02:21:52,080
Speaker 15: different sort of sites doing this sort of thing, and

2405
02:21:52,160 --> 02:21:53,560
Speaker 15: I think in some ways all of us are sort

2406
02:21:53,560 --> 02:21:56,360
Speaker 15: of collectively reinventing the newspapers that have been sort of

2407
02:21:56,440 --> 02:21:59,480
Speaker 15: stolen and destroyed by capital, you know, in a big way.

2408
02:21:59,640 --> 02:21:59,840
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2409
02:22:00,360 --> 02:22:01,880
Speaker 15: So there's sort of two goals that we have, and

2410
02:22:01,920 --> 02:22:04,480
Speaker 15: I think Carla Carla speaks really eloquently to some of this,

2411
02:22:04,640 --> 02:22:08,640
Speaker 15: but one of which is to make writing radical culture

2412
02:22:08,720 --> 02:22:13,480
Speaker 15: work beautiful, joyful, fun and also critical like movement work.

2413
02:22:13,840 --> 02:22:16,360
Speaker 15: To make it sustainable for us and for anyone else

2414
02:22:16,360 --> 02:22:19,080
Speaker 15: who wants to share in this project, who we can

2415
02:22:19,200 --> 02:22:21,959
Speaker 15: sort of expand towards, but also to make it easier

2416
02:22:22,000 --> 02:22:23,680
Speaker 15: for people who are reading to have access to these

2417
02:22:23,720 --> 02:22:26,080
Speaker 15: things like in one place, instead of having to you know,

2418
02:22:26,240 --> 02:22:28,360
Speaker 15: decide who they care for and who they like in

2419
02:22:28,480 --> 02:22:30,800
Speaker 15: order to sort of you know, do that mac of

2420
02:22:30,920 --> 02:22:33,199
Speaker 15: like who can I afford to subscribe to, like I personally,

2421
02:22:33,200 --> 02:22:34,440
Speaker 15: I don't know if it's true for everyone else, but

2422
02:22:34,680 --> 02:22:36,800
Speaker 15: personally I usually have about two or three people I

2423
02:22:36,840 --> 02:22:38,680
Speaker 15: can afford to subscribe to a month, and I switch

2424
02:22:38,720 --> 02:22:41,280
Speaker 15: it out, just like on a very arbitrary basis, you know,

2425
02:22:41,400 --> 02:22:45,560
Speaker 15: or something like that that was very technical and financially focused.

2426
02:22:45,720 --> 02:22:48,279
Speaker 15: But what we're really excited to do mostly is support

2427
02:22:48,680 --> 02:22:51,000
Speaker 15: each other's work, because I think we all really love

2428
02:22:51,080 --> 02:22:52,880
Speaker 15: and admire each other's work and have for a long time,

2429
02:22:53,000 --> 02:22:55,800
Speaker 15: and this is just this really exciting opportunity. Instead of

2430
02:22:55,879 --> 02:22:59,560
Speaker 15: my writing just being for me, it's for Shuley and

2431
02:22:59,680 --> 02:23:01,640
Speaker 15: Carla and Danny No, And that just makes it feel

2432
02:23:01,800 --> 02:23:04,760
Speaker 15: more inspiring and exciting as well as a collective process.

2433
02:23:05,560 --> 02:23:08,640
Speaker 14: Yeah, I mean connected to the financial aspect, but I

2434
02:23:08,680 --> 02:23:12,240
Speaker 14: think when we are initially discussing this, the experience of

2435
02:23:12,360 --> 02:23:15,600
Speaker 14: being a writer is trying to find outlets for your writing. Yeah,

2436
02:23:15,720 --> 02:23:17,440
Speaker 14: and if you're trying to get paid for that, you

2437
02:23:17,560 --> 02:23:20,640
Speaker 14: have to sell it to people, right, And so it's

2438
02:23:20,720 --> 02:23:22,720
Speaker 14: very hard to get paid at all for writing, and

2439
02:23:22,840 --> 02:23:26,280
Speaker 14: it's very hard to place your writing in venues that

2440
02:23:26,360 --> 02:23:29,160
Speaker 14: publish it, especially if you're coming from an anarchist angle

2441
02:23:29,240 --> 02:23:32,080
Speaker 14: because people do not really want to publish things that

2442
02:23:32,200 --> 02:23:34,800
Speaker 14: come to anarchist conclusions, Like they want you to do

2443
02:23:34,959 --> 02:23:37,520
Speaker 14: all the analysis and whatever, but they don't want you

2444
02:23:37,600 --> 02:23:41,200
Speaker 14: to think about like what an action is like, so like,

2445
02:23:41,360 --> 02:23:44,600
Speaker 14: you know, you could write for some of the lefty

2446
02:23:45,080 --> 02:23:49,400
Speaker 14: so called lefty socialist whatever rags, but they don't.

2447
02:23:49,560 --> 02:23:50,840
Speaker 16: Yeah, they won't feature anarchists.

2448
02:23:50,840 --> 02:23:54,320
Speaker 14: They basically even just act as if anarchism doesn't exist,

2449
02:23:54,480 --> 02:23:57,640
Speaker 14: never exists, you know, never existed. They erase the whole

2450
02:23:57,760 --> 02:23:59,920
Speaker 14: history of it. The only serious kind of political force

2451
02:24:00,160 --> 02:24:04,080
Speaker 14: is some kind of democratic socialism. So to us, we

2452
02:24:04,200 --> 02:24:06,600
Speaker 14: wanted to create a place where we can do the

2453
02:24:06,640 --> 02:24:09,240
Speaker 14: writing we want to do without having to make compromises

2454
02:24:09,480 --> 02:24:10,320
Speaker 14: and what we want to.

2455
02:24:10,360 --> 02:24:12,439
Speaker 16: Say just to get published.

2456
02:24:13,040 --> 02:24:15,600
Speaker 14: Because that, yeah, just that game of like of shopping

2457
02:24:15,680 --> 02:24:19,879
Speaker 14: your stuff around is it's demeaning. It's totally time consuming.

2458
02:24:20,400 --> 02:24:24,480
Speaker 14: It distracts you from actually doing the work. So we

2459
02:24:24,560 --> 02:24:28,080
Speaker 14: were like less banned together instead of each of us

2460
02:24:28,200 --> 02:24:31,240
Speaker 14: going off wasting our time trying to write.

2461
02:24:31,840 --> 02:24:33,680
Speaker 13: Yeah, and I think one of the other issues with

2462
02:24:33,800 --> 02:24:35,840
Speaker 13: this too also, like the pay is just so bad,

2463
02:24:36,200 --> 02:24:39,600
Speaker 13: Like even though almost especially the leftist groups like page

2464
02:24:39,680 --> 02:24:42,800
Speaker 13: is so rancid, and all of the combinations of those

2465
02:24:42,840 --> 02:24:45,720
Speaker 13: things make it really really hard to just sort of

2466
02:24:46,040 --> 02:24:49,880
Speaker 13: be an independent writer. And also, okay, jumping back a

2467
02:24:49,920 --> 02:24:52,920
Speaker 13: second to the racing anicism exists. This is why the

2468
02:24:52,959 --> 02:24:54,680
Speaker 13: one that makes me always lose my mind is Like

2469
02:24:54,920 --> 02:24:57,320
Speaker 13: I'm specifically going to name Jocobin here because I don't

2470
02:24:57,400 --> 02:24:59,280
Speaker 13: like them, but like, one of the things that jacumum

2471
02:24:59,320 --> 02:25:01,959
Speaker 13: will do is though covering a strike that is organized

2472
02:25:01,959 --> 02:25:04,800
Speaker 13: by the IWW it is an IWW union, that they

2473
02:25:04,840 --> 02:25:07,280
Speaker 13: will have pictures of the strike where there are a

2474
02:25:07,320 --> 02:25:09,760
Speaker 13: bunch of people holding IWW banners, and they will never

2475
02:25:09,879 --> 02:25:12,320
Speaker 13: mention that it was the IWW who organized the strike.

2476
02:25:12,680 --> 02:25:16,360
Speaker 13: So like, yeah, there is this real sort of conspiracy

2477
02:25:16,440 --> 02:25:20,480
Speaker 13: of silence I guess about our politics and the stuff that.

2478
02:25:20,520 --> 02:25:21,199
Speaker 4: We do in the world.

2479
02:25:21,560 --> 02:25:24,320
Speaker 16: It's so glaring. Jacobin is definitely a big culprit.

2480
02:25:24,360 --> 02:25:27,280
Speaker 14: And then the podcasts associated with the dig like they

2481
02:25:27,320 --> 02:25:30,000
Speaker 14: will specifically will be talking about history where anarchists have

2482
02:25:30,480 --> 02:25:32,839
Speaker 14: been very involved.

2483
02:25:32,440 --> 02:25:34,520
Speaker 16: And they just will not mention them.

2484
02:25:34,560 --> 02:25:37,200
Speaker 14: I'm like, and they sometimes there's really good history and

2485
02:25:37,200 --> 02:25:40,279
Speaker 14: analysis on that podcast, but like, this is an omission

2486
02:25:40,320 --> 02:25:41,840
Speaker 14: that they clearly are choosing.

2487
02:25:42,480 --> 02:25:46,600
Speaker 13: Yeah, and I think, you know, self organization is effectively

2488
02:25:46,680 --> 02:25:49,240
Speaker 13: the only way out of this, because why is you

2489
02:25:49,360 --> 02:25:50,800
Speaker 13: just sort of I don't know how I have to

2490
02:25:50,840 --> 02:25:53,360
Speaker 13: deal with all the sort of media gatekeepers like sitting

2491
02:25:53,440 --> 02:25:55,040
Speaker 13: there in front of you with a stick going no

2492
02:25:55,200 --> 02:25:57,720
Speaker 13: anarchism of balk Yeah, and.

2493
02:25:58,000 --> 02:26:01,040
Speaker 15: Even the projects that have sustained, that have survived, which

2494
02:26:01,120 --> 02:26:04,160
Speaker 15: are all really awesome, you know, like and exciting, like

2495
02:26:04,320 --> 02:26:07,840
Speaker 15: very few of them have offered real sustainability, like on

2496
02:26:07,959 --> 02:26:11,039
Speaker 15: a professional level, and like I've been publishing like quote

2497
02:26:11,120 --> 02:26:14,120
Speaker 15: unquote professionally for fifteen years, and like I'm the like

2498
02:26:14,240 --> 02:26:16,960
Speaker 15: newest writer on the scene, like from our crew basically,

2499
02:26:17,080 --> 02:26:20,440
Speaker 15: like we're incredibly experienced, and all of us have books out,

2500
02:26:20,480 --> 02:26:22,280
Speaker 15: all of us have edited volumes, all of us have

2501
02:26:22,440 --> 02:26:25,320
Speaker 15: like podcasts, and like are people who I like, really respect,

2502
02:26:25,320 --> 02:26:27,520
Speaker 15: whose names I think are big and important in the

2503
02:26:27,560 --> 02:26:31,080
Speaker 15: world of theory and activism and like in the Anglophone

2504
02:26:31,120 --> 02:26:34,160
Speaker 15: world especially, and none of us can sustain ourselves as

2505
02:26:34,280 --> 02:26:37,560
Speaker 15: writers as such because of the way that just you know,

2506
02:26:37,640 --> 02:26:39,600
Speaker 15: both politically but also just like the way the market

2507
02:26:39,640 --> 02:26:42,560
Speaker 15: has come down and it just feels like something we

2508
02:26:42,600 --> 02:26:45,640
Speaker 15: could apply our politics to solving as a workplace issue

2509
02:26:46,080 --> 02:26:48,080
Speaker 15: rather than just sort of as like a you know,

2510
02:26:48,280 --> 02:26:50,920
Speaker 15: are you committed enough to sacrifice all your time issue?

2511
02:26:51,760 --> 02:26:54,760
Speaker 15: And so hopefully like that will also function to make

2512
02:26:55,280 --> 02:26:58,760
Speaker 15: more work available to produce and to platform and to

2513
02:26:59,080 --> 02:27:02,119
Speaker 15: yeah to to sort of work as an example simultaneously.

2514
02:27:02,800 --> 02:27:06,400
Speaker 13: Unfortunately, speak of speaking of sustaining work as a platform. Unfortunately,

2515
02:27:06,440 --> 02:27:08,360
Speaker 13: the way we are sustained here is with these ads.

2516
02:27:08,560 --> 02:27:21,680
Speaker 4: So hold on and we are back, and this, I

2517
02:27:21,720 --> 02:27:24,640
Speaker 4: guess brings us to the kind of work that's happening here.

2518
02:27:24,640 --> 02:27:25,520
Speaker 4: And I was very.

2519
02:27:25,480 --> 02:27:28,720
Speaker 13: Excited because one of the things y'all have done is

2520
02:27:28,760 --> 02:27:32,199
Speaker 13: an interview with Rouls of Becky, who is the author

2521
02:27:32,360 --> 02:27:35,080
Speaker 13: of like one of my favorite quotes of all time.

2522
02:27:35,440 --> 02:27:37,280
Speaker 13: I think I've said on this show like multiple times

2523
02:27:37,280 --> 02:27:40,320
Speaker 13: that I weirdly ran into in a sort of completely

2524
02:27:40,440 --> 02:27:43,000
Speaker 13: unrelated book called Rhythms of the Patchacouti, which is about

2525
02:27:43,200 --> 02:27:45,199
Speaker 13: the sort of the water and gas wars in Bolivia.

2526
02:27:45,240 --> 02:27:47,280
Speaker 13: I talked about this book on the show like all

2527
02:27:47,360 --> 02:27:51,920
Speaker 13: the time. This quote goes roughly like struggle illuminates the

2528
02:27:51,959 --> 02:27:54,560
Speaker 13: divisions of a society like lightning illuminates the sky.

2529
02:27:54,800 --> 02:27:55,320
Speaker 4: And I love it.

2530
02:27:55,320 --> 02:27:57,040
Speaker 13: It's like it's like it's the best explanation of what

2531
02:27:57,120 --> 02:27:59,120
Speaker 13: happened during twenty twenty that I've ever seen, And this

2532
02:27:59,240 --> 02:28:02,520
Speaker 13: is sort of what's happening like right now too, is

2533
02:28:02,600 --> 02:28:05,640
Speaker 13: like you have these sort of flashpoint moments where where

2534
02:28:05,840 --> 02:28:09,080
Speaker 13: you know, suddenly, like all of how society works very

2535
02:28:09,200 --> 02:28:11,480
Speaker 13: briefly becomes visible and you have this sort of moment

2536
02:28:11,520 --> 02:28:14,519
Speaker 13: when you're eludinated by it to act. And so I'm

2537
02:28:14,560 --> 02:28:18,600
Speaker 13: really excited that you are talking to him, And yeah,

2538
02:28:18,840 --> 02:28:20,640
Speaker 13: because you talked to Pet a bit more about what's

2539
02:28:20,680 --> 02:28:22,119
Speaker 13: been going on and what's to come.

2540
02:28:22,640 --> 02:28:26,000
Speaker 9: I'm sure thanks. That was a highlight definitely this shear

2541
02:28:26,160 --> 02:28:29,520
Speaker 9: was talking to Raoul obviously, you know a podcastco. We

2542
02:28:29,600 --> 02:28:31,680
Speaker 9: talked for quite a bit longer than what was on

2543
02:28:31,800 --> 02:28:36,440
Speaker 9: the show, and I think like reading his newest book

2544
02:28:36,560 --> 02:28:39,800
Speaker 9: that was translated and then doing that show with him,

2545
02:28:40,520 --> 02:28:43,960
Speaker 9: it was completely connected to me, like reaching out to

2546
02:28:44,000 --> 02:28:47,960
Speaker 9: Schuley about doing Call, because there is a way that

2547
02:28:48,840 --> 02:28:52,400
Speaker 9: that he talked about this whole idea of disappearing symmetries

2548
02:28:52,440 --> 02:28:55,200
Speaker 9: that those Bapotistas are working on, like this idea of

2549
02:28:55,400 --> 02:29:00,400
Speaker 9: really truly looking at all the fault lines within horizontality

2550
02:29:00,560 --> 02:29:03,560
Speaker 9: or autonomy that we don't actually enact in our day

2551
02:29:03,600 --> 02:29:06,520
Speaker 9: to day lives. And so I really started to reflect

2552
02:29:06,600 --> 02:29:09,920
Speaker 9: on my own life that way. And not so much

2553
02:29:10,000 --> 02:29:12,680
Speaker 9: Vicky at this point yet, but like Huli and Danny,

2554
02:29:12,760 --> 02:29:15,080
Speaker 9: both of them, like we just were blurbing each other's

2555
02:29:15,120 --> 02:29:19,080
Speaker 9: books and like supporting each other to connecting to publishers

2556
02:29:19,360 --> 02:29:22,280
Speaker 9: or trying to connect each other to publishers, and just

2557
02:29:23,240 --> 02:29:26,520
Speaker 9: like trying to disrupt a competitive nature that's running underneath

2558
02:29:26,520 --> 02:29:29,359
Speaker 9: even when we're all really committed to not being competitive,

2559
02:29:29,440 --> 02:29:31,840
Speaker 9: but there's like it is, like there's a you know.

2560
02:29:32,800 --> 02:29:35,920
Speaker 9: So all is to say that for me, like collaboration

2561
02:29:36,160 --> 02:29:38,560
Speaker 9: is at the heart of what we're doing here in

2562
02:29:38,640 --> 02:29:42,040
Speaker 9: a deep, deep way. And for me, collaboration just means

2563
02:29:42,120 --> 02:29:46,400
Speaker 9: that when something is created that wouldn't be created otherwise

2564
02:29:46,800 --> 02:29:49,640
Speaker 9: without this collaboration. So I'm just really excited to see

2565
02:29:49,720 --> 02:29:52,760
Speaker 9: what sparks and comes up individually, but also like with

2566
02:29:52,879 --> 02:29:56,199
Speaker 9: each other and even like through collaborations like this show

2567
02:29:56,240 --> 02:30:01,280
Speaker 9: with Raoul and like how that spreads seeds and ideas. Yeah,

2568
02:30:01,440 --> 02:30:04,440
Speaker 9: so like for myself, I'm going to definitely focus on

2569
02:30:04,640 --> 02:30:07,000
Speaker 9: collaboration in a deep way. I don't think I'll write

2570
02:30:07,120 --> 02:30:09,879
Speaker 9: very much solo stuff for the for call, I think

2571
02:30:09,920 --> 02:30:13,160
Speaker 9: it will always be in conversation with others and just

2572
02:30:13,280 --> 02:30:18,359
Speaker 9: trying to double down on on doing it together instead

2573
02:30:18,360 --> 02:30:20,640
Speaker 9: of individual pursuits.

2574
02:30:21,280 --> 02:30:23,320
Speaker 13: Yeah, And that's something I think is useful for everyone

2575
02:30:23,400 --> 02:30:25,680
Speaker 13: listening to this, is that, like it's a lot easier

2576
02:30:25,760 --> 02:30:29,400
Speaker 13: to develop better ideas, and you know, it makes your

2577
02:30:29,440 --> 02:30:32,440
Speaker 13: writing more clear. It makes the way that you, you know,

2578
02:30:32,560 --> 02:30:34,000
Speaker 13: just the way you act in the world a lot

2579
02:30:34,040 --> 02:30:36,520
Speaker 13: more clear when you're working with other people, and it's

2580
02:30:36,720 --> 02:30:38,440
Speaker 13: you know, it's it's it's the process by which the

2581
02:30:38,480 --> 02:30:40,320
Speaker 13: best stuff gets created.

2582
02:30:41,080 --> 02:30:43,040
Speaker 15: Yeah, I mean, I think that's really like true. And

2583
02:30:43,080 --> 02:30:46,039
Speaker 15: I think like I have for a long time now

2584
02:30:46,280 --> 02:30:49,000
Speaker 15: sort of accepted that writing is never going to support

2585
02:30:49,120 --> 02:30:51,560
Speaker 15: or sustain me. And all I needed was a push

2586
02:30:51,680 --> 02:30:53,280
Speaker 15: from a few other people to be like, wait, what

2587
02:30:53,360 --> 02:30:55,400
Speaker 15: if we like actually tried to do it collectively, to

2588
02:30:55,480 --> 02:30:57,480
Speaker 15: be like, oh, yeah, like I could actually try that,

2589
02:30:57,600 --> 02:30:59,200
Speaker 15: Like I don't have to just accept that, Like I'll

2590
02:30:59,200 --> 02:31:02,760
Speaker 15: always have like a full time job plus whatever writing,

2591
02:31:02,920 --> 02:31:04,840
Speaker 15: like in whatever hours I can steal, you know, and

2592
02:31:04,959 --> 02:31:08,320
Speaker 15: like you know, with great difficulty put out some writing

2593
02:31:08,440 --> 02:31:10,480
Speaker 15: sometimes and then always feel guilty when I'm not putting

2594
02:31:10,480 --> 02:31:13,280
Speaker 15: out enough to like sustain myself, like that whole process.

2595
02:31:13,400 --> 02:31:15,840
Speaker 15: I think a lot of creatives right now know that struggle,

2596
02:31:15,920 --> 02:31:19,240
Speaker 15: you know, of having gigs and work and lots of

2597
02:31:19,320 --> 02:31:22,360
Speaker 15: other important things to do and and you know, sort

2598
02:31:22,360 --> 02:31:24,360
Speaker 15: of accepting that that's the conditions. And I think, like,

2599
02:31:24,879 --> 02:31:27,280
Speaker 15: what's so inspiring about? You know, because Carlin and as

2600
02:31:27,360 --> 02:31:29,080
Speaker 15: Carlo was just mentioning, they sort of brought I'm the

2601
02:31:29,160 --> 02:31:30,720
Speaker 15: last one on the on the crew, and I was

2602
02:31:30,760 --> 02:31:33,200
Speaker 15: sort of the closer, you know or whatever. But I think, like,

2603
02:31:33,400 --> 02:31:36,800
Speaker 15: I don't know what that means genuinely, but but I

2604
02:31:37,160 --> 02:31:39,800
Speaker 15: was brought in. And I think just having them propose

2605
02:31:39,840 --> 02:31:42,680
Speaker 15: it already just as a project that we've been thinking

2606
02:31:42,720 --> 02:31:44,600
Speaker 15: of has like changed the way I've been thinking about

2607
02:31:44,879 --> 02:31:47,520
Speaker 15: what is possible with the writing I'm already doing. And

2608
02:31:47,720 --> 02:31:49,720
Speaker 15: so I think, like, just to underline that point and

2609
02:31:49,800 --> 02:31:53,360
Speaker 15: go on and on, collaborations really really like important and

2610
02:31:53,920 --> 02:31:54,960
Speaker 15: supporting one another.

2611
02:31:55,200 --> 02:31:56,440
Speaker 1: So is so powerful.

2612
02:31:56,800 --> 02:31:59,640
Speaker 14: Yeah, When carl and I initially had like the seed

2613
02:31:59,760 --> 02:32:03,920
Speaker 14: come versation of this, like Carlo said something about collectivizing

2614
02:32:04,040 --> 02:32:06,480
Speaker 14: as writers, like we talk about it with all these

2615
02:32:06,560 --> 02:32:10,720
Speaker 14: other other workplaces and industries and whatever, and it was

2616
02:32:10,879 --> 02:32:13,760
Speaker 14: like like when when she said that, I was like, oh, yeah,

2617
02:32:14,000 --> 02:32:16,360
Speaker 14: like that makes so much sense. Like we're off here

2618
02:32:16,480 --> 02:32:19,600
Speaker 14: doing our own thing, and as Vicky said, you do

2619
02:32:19,760 --> 02:32:23,040
Speaker 14: it sort of with the knowledge that it's not sustainable.

2620
02:32:23,480 --> 02:32:24,760
Speaker 16: You steal your time to.

2621
02:32:24,840 --> 02:32:28,320
Speaker 14: Do it, right, Even the supposed jobs that are there

2622
02:32:28,440 --> 02:32:32,200
Speaker 14: to enable you to write actually make you do all

2623
02:32:32,280 --> 02:32:34,640
Speaker 14: this other work. So like the time for writing is

2624
02:32:34,680 --> 02:32:38,720
Speaker 14: always like endlessly deferred. And you know, we have that

2625
02:32:38,840 --> 02:32:40,880
Speaker 14: image also like of the patron or something, or like

2626
02:32:41,040 --> 02:32:43,040
Speaker 14: Virginia Woolf says, you need money enough to have a

2627
02:32:43,160 --> 02:32:46,520
Speaker 14: room of one's own. But if we put ourselves together

2628
02:32:46,680 --> 02:32:50,480
Speaker 14: in this way, then we are trying to, yeah, I

2629
02:32:50,520 --> 02:32:53,200
Speaker 14: don't know, create more time for ourselves to write. And then,

2630
02:32:53,280 --> 02:32:55,800
Speaker 14: like going back to something Vicky said earlier about like

2631
02:32:56,000 --> 02:32:59,840
Speaker 14: reinventing the newspaper, there was a time in anarchism where

2632
02:33:00,320 --> 02:33:02,600
Speaker 14: I think we talked about this amongst ourselves, like where

2633
02:33:02,680 --> 02:33:05,760
Speaker 14: like every block had like a Yiddish anarchist newspaper. Right,

2634
02:33:05,840 --> 02:33:08,840
Speaker 14: It wasn't like, yeah, you had one newspaper telling all

2635
02:33:08,920 --> 02:33:10,600
Speaker 14: the anarchists, but to think it was like it was

2636
02:33:10,720 --> 02:33:13,280
Speaker 14: hyper local in a way, and there was so many voices,

2637
02:33:13,800 --> 02:33:15,959
Speaker 14: and so I think that's another thing that we want

2638
02:33:16,040 --> 02:33:18,840
Speaker 14: to do is like help for that proliferation, because in

2639
02:33:18,959 --> 02:33:21,600
Speaker 14: the sort of spirit of collaboration, like the reason to

2640
02:33:21,680 --> 02:33:24,640
Speaker 14: write as an anarchist for me is to have conversations

2641
02:33:24,720 --> 02:33:27,800
Speaker 14: to produce the possibility for people to like receive it

2642
02:33:27,879 --> 02:33:31,200
Speaker 14: and then contact me into and I get into conversations

2643
02:33:31,240 --> 02:33:32,640
Speaker 14: with people and learn things from them.

2644
02:33:33,080 --> 02:33:33,280
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2645
02:33:33,280 --> 02:33:35,880
Speaker 13: I think it's an angle there too, where like I

2646
02:33:35,920 --> 02:33:38,200
Speaker 13: think we're kind of okay. So I was a tiny

2647
02:33:38,280 --> 02:33:41,200
Speaker 13: baby when all this was happening, so I'm gonna have

2648
02:33:41,200 --> 02:33:43,160
Speaker 13: to rely on y'all for this. But like, you know,

2649
02:33:43,560 --> 02:33:45,080
Speaker 13: one of the things I get from sort of reading

2650
02:33:45,760 --> 02:33:48,760
Speaker 13: the record about like the older anarchist movie. I mean

2651
02:33:48,840 --> 02:33:51,360
Speaker 13: when I say older, I mean like like anti anti

2652
02:33:51,400 --> 02:33:53,920
Speaker 13: globalization era stuff was like there seems like there was

2653
02:33:53,920 --> 02:33:56,280
Speaker 13: a lot more of a kind of like anarchist media sphere.

2654
02:33:56,480 --> 02:33:59,520
Speaker 9: Are you talking about like the late nineties, Yeah, and like.

2655
02:33:59,600 --> 02:34:01,720
Speaker 4: Like to the two thousands to some extent like a

2656
02:34:02,000 --> 02:34:02,800
Speaker 4: Battle Seattle.

2657
02:34:03,000 --> 02:34:06,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, I mean that was like the you know,

2658
02:34:06,680 --> 02:34:10,160
Speaker 9: the birth of anarchy again, right, Yeah, I was definitely

2659
02:34:10,200 --> 02:34:15,119
Speaker 9: around I'm in my late fifties, but the same struggle

2660
02:34:15,240 --> 02:34:18,519
Speaker 9: was there like that, yeah, that we're swimming in liberalism

2661
02:34:18,840 --> 02:34:23,720
Speaker 9: and like that socialist worker like capturing of the movement

2662
02:34:23,959 --> 02:34:26,240
Speaker 9: was just as powerful then, and it was you saw

2663
02:34:26,280 --> 02:34:28,840
Speaker 9: it at all the rallies and stuff, and you know,

2664
02:34:28,920 --> 02:34:33,480
Speaker 9: immediately anarchism was marginalized and pushed off as irrelevant and

2665
02:34:33,920 --> 02:34:36,920
Speaker 9: not practical for the revolution, and this is why it

2666
02:34:37,000 --> 02:34:39,960
Speaker 9: splintered off and all these kind of sectarian movements in

2667
02:34:40,080 --> 02:34:42,600
Speaker 9: the That's my take anyway, I think.

2668
02:34:42,560 --> 02:34:44,680
Speaker 4: That no, it makes sense, it makes sense.

2669
02:34:44,959 --> 02:34:48,080
Speaker 9: I mean I've hashed this out with so many older anarchists.

2670
02:34:48,200 --> 02:34:50,520
Speaker 9: I was part of Institute for Anarchist Studies, Like we

2671
02:34:50,640 --> 02:34:53,560
Speaker 9: talked about this a lot phenomena with Scott Crow, and

2672
02:34:54,240 --> 02:34:56,080
Speaker 9: you could just see the direct line of where it

2673
02:34:56,200 --> 02:35:00,680
Speaker 9: went into sectarianism from this sort of rebirth. Sorry I

2674
02:35:00,720 --> 02:35:02,840
Speaker 9: went off on a different thing instead of like journals

2675
02:35:02,920 --> 02:35:03,280
Speaker 9: and media.

2676
02:35:03,400 --> 02:35:05,840
Speaker 13: But yeah, no, no, well this is good too, because

2677
02:35:05,879 --> 02:35:07,520
Speaker 13: like I think that's the other thing I've been realizing

2678
02:35:07,680 --> 02:35:10,119
Speaker 13: is like people don't I mean in my generation too,

2679
02:35:10,160 --> 02:35:12,840
Speaker 13: but like people younger than me don't really know the.

2680
02:35:12,920 --> 02:35:13,720
Speaker 4: History of this stuff.

2681
02:35:13,840 --> 02:35:15,680
Speaker 13: Like all the time I have conversations with people where

2682
02:35:15,680 --> 02:35:17,840
Speaker 13: I started talking about like the Wahaka Uprising, and they

2683
02:35:17,879 --> 02:35:20,200
Speaker 13: have no idea what I'm talking about, and I'm like,

2684
02:35:20,280 --> 02:35:22,600
Speaker 13: oh no, we need to like we need to like

2685
02:35:22,680 --> 02:35:25,640
Speaker 13: resuscitate the history of like the two thousands, because stuff

2686
02:35:25,720 --> 02:35:26,240
Speaker 13: happened there.

2687
02:35:27,120 --> 02:35:29,520
Speaker 15: So I wasn't actually active at that point, but I

2688
02:35:29,840 --> 02:35:32,920
Speaker 15: was like very adjacent to some of that stuff at

2689
02:35:32,959 --> 02:35:35,640
Speaker 15: the moment. And some of that was actually because a

2690
02:35:35,760 --> 02:35:38,039
Speaker 15: lot of what was going on in the alter globalization

2691
02:35:38,160 --> 02:35:41,360
Speaker 15: movement in that period was happening through culture. I think

2692
02:35:41,400 --> 02:35:45,199
Speaker 15: most famously, like touring punk bands would also bring zine

2693
02:35:45,240 --> 02:35:47,600
Speaker 15: libraries with them, so they would have someone destroying zines

2694
02:35:47,680 --> 02:35:49,880
Speaker 15: and playing the show. And like, I mean I got

2695
02:35:49,959 --> 02:35:51,520
Speaker 15: radicalized through punk. I know a lot of people who

2696
02:35:51,560 --> 02:35:53,120
Speaker 15: did that. Was you know when I finally did, it

2697
02:35:53,240 --> 02:35:55,640
Speaker 15: was after that movement had largely crusted. But I think

2698
02:35:55,720 --> 02:35:58,680
Speaker 15: there was a lot of focus on culture and also

2699
02:35:59,240 --> 02:36:03,320
Speaker 15: a critique of clture was also pretty central to how

2700
02:36:03,760 --> 02:36:07,000
Speaker 15: people were thinking and moving. And I think the explosion

2701
02:36:07,080 --> 02:36:09,800
Speaker 15: of social media and like posting and like the sort

2702
02:36:09,840 --> 02:36:15,080
Speaker 15: of quote unquote democratization and leveling of communication capabilities, which

2703
02:36:15,600 --> 02:36:18,200
Speaker 15: in some ways was more real in the early twenty

2704
02:36:18,320 --> 02:36:20,520
Speaker 15: tens than it is certainly than it is now. It

2705
02:36:20,640 --> 02:36:23,200
Speaker 15: wasn't totally like a made up narrative, but there was

2706
02:36:23,240 --> 02:36:25,840
Speaker 15: also it was also over relied on. I think people

2707
02:36:26,160 --> 02:36:28,480
Speaker 15: sort of reached for a kind of like, well, we

2708
02:36:28,680 --> 02:36:31,280
Speaker 15: anyone who can use these tools to communicate, like that's valuable.

2709
02:36:31,360 --> 02:36:35,039
Speaker 15: So critiquing sort of media in general, or critiquing sort

2710
02:36:35,080 --> 02:36:37,199
Speaker 15: of capitalist media is sort of beside the point because

2711
02:36:37,240 --> 02:36:38,520
Speaker 15: we can go around it. We can sort of go

2712
02:36:38,840 --> 02:36:40,440
Speaker 15: we can you know, go on Twitter and subvert it,

2713
02:36:40,520 --> 02:36:42,360
Speaker 15: and we can like do all these you know, go

2714
02:36:42,560 --> 02:36:45,439
Speaker 15: sideways around it. So I was, you know, a participant

2715
02:36:45,440 --> 02:36:47,400
Speaker 15: in to Occupy Wall Street twenty eleven, which people also

2716
02:36:47,440 --> 02:36:51,400
Speaker 15: don't know anything about because that's just being older. But

2717
02:36:51,520 --> 02:36:54,480
Speaker 15: Occupy Wall Street was started by a magazine called Adbusters,

2718
02:36:54,560 --> 02:36:57,240
Speaker 15: which came out of the WTO movement and sort of

2719
02:36:57,280 --> 02:37:00,520
Speaker 15: managed to stick around. And by two thousand eleven, when

2720
02:37:00,560 --> 02:37:02,360
Speaker 15: they did that, we thought it was like a joke.

2721
02:37:02,520 --> 02:37:05,160
Speaker 15: It was like, oh, these culture jammers who like make

2722
02:37:05,200 --> 02:37:08,160
Speaker 15: fun of advertisements, like they started the movement. Like that's ridiculous, right,

2723
02:37:08,240 --> 02:37:11,360
Speaker 15: Like that's silly, and like this is not to defend Adbusters,

2724
02:37:11,400 --> 02:37:11,720
Speaker 15: I think.

2725
02:37:11,959 --> 02:37:14,800
Speaker 4: Whatever, Yeah, there's some issues with them. But yeah, yeah,

2726
02:37:14,840 --> 02:37:16,119
Speaker 4: they also did think.

2727
02:37:16,000 --> 02:37:18,240
Speaker 15: I don't know, yeah, But also I think that reaction

2728
02:37:18,360 --> 02:37:20,600
Speaker 15: of like culture jamming is sort of stupid or like,

2729
02:37:20,680 --> 02:37:22,959
Speaker 15: you know, like talking about who wants to talk about culture?

2730
02:37:23,240 --> 02:37:26,240
Speaker 15: At this point, I think that that made sense in

2731
02:37:26,280 --> 02:37:28,240
Speaker 15: the context in which we were moving and organizing. But

2732
02:37:28,440 --> 02:37:31,320
Speaker 15: like now, once again, it is clear that by abandoning

2733
02:37:31,360 --> 02:37:34,119
Speaker 15: the cultural sphere in many ways, we have in fact

2734
02:37:34,280 --> 02:37:36,640
Speaker 15: lost a tremendous amount of ground. So I think it's

2735
02:37:36,640 --> 02:37:40,120
Speaker 15: actually really important to have cultural organizations that aren't just theory,

2736
02:37:40,240 --> 02:37:42,879
Speaker 15: that aren't just news, but that are like really talking

2737
02:37:43,120 --> 02:37:46,960
Speaker 15: about art and beauty and like excitement and joy and

2738
02:37:47,120 --> 02:37:49,480
Speaker 15: fiction and all these things that we find really important

2739
02:37:49,959 --> 02:37:52,520
Speaker 15: because you know, I think a lot of people sort

2740
02:37:52,520 --> 02:37:54,200
Speaker 15: of think, well, it's a crisis moment, you know, the

2741
02:37:54,240 --> 02:37:55,840
Speaker 15: world's ending, why would you do that? But like the

2742
02:37:55,879 --> 02:37:58,240
Speaker 15: world has been ending since fourteen ninety two, Like the

2743
02:37:58,480 --> 02:38:00,960
Speaker 15: world worth defending has been ending since then, and it

2744
02:38:01,040 --> 02:38:03,160
Speaker 15: hasn't ended yet. And one of the ways it hasn't

2745
02:38:03,240 --> 02:38:08,840
Speaker 15: ended is by indigenous and black and other marginalized cultures

2746
02:38:09,000 --> 02:38:11,800
Speaker 15: and stories and narratives and works of art has been

2747
02:38:11,800 --> 02:38:14,600
Speaker 15: an important mode of history and resistance just as much

2748
02:38:14,640 --> 02:38:18,240
Speaker 15: as organizing and struggle, And yeah, I think we can

2749
02:38:18,440 --> 02:38:20,040
Speaker 15: move some struggle into that terrain right now. And I

2750
02:38:20,080 --> 02:38:22,680
Speaker 15: think there's a lot of craving for it now because

2751
02:38:22,720 --> 02:38:26,600
Speaker 15: I think also for a while things felt really oversaturated.

2752
02:38:26,840 --> 02:38:29,600
Speaker 15: But the last five years, the Internet doesn't feel helpful anymore. No,

2753
02:38:29,959 --> 02:38:32,760
Speaker 15: everything feels like streaming is a mess. Like everything's a mess.

2754
02:38:32,920 --> 02:38:35,560
Speaker 15: There's no access to culture that feels good. Everyone hates

2755
02:38:35,600 --> 02:38:37,760
Speaker 15: what they're doing. They know it's exploiting the artists. They know,

2756
02:38:38,240 --> 02:38:40,800
Speaker 15: you know, Spotify is giving people pennies, and that you know,

2757
02:38:41,080 --> 02:38:43,080
Speaker 15: Hbo and all those you know, all the all the

2758
02:38:43,120 --> 02:38:46,920
Speaker 15: streaming services you know, support Amazon, and they're they're just miserable, right,

2759
02:38:47,040 --> 02:38:49,280
Speaker 15: And I think there's there's a real opening and a

2760
02:38:49,320 --> 02:38:52,800
Speaker 15: real desire for something else at this moment, at the

2761
02:38:52,800 --> 02:38:57,480
Speaker 15: same time that things are indeed quite on fire, literally ecocidally,

2762
02:38:57,560 --> 02:38:59,640
Speaker 15: but also also sort of politically, yeah.

2763
02:38:59,520 --> 02:39:01,640
Speaker 13: Speaking, everything being on fire, we need to take an

2764
02:39:01,640 --> 02:39:03,160
Speaker 13: ad break and then we will come back. And I

2765
02:39:03,200 --> 02:39:15,520
Speaker 13: think the deliberate political intervention here we are back from

2766
02:39:16,280 --> 02:39:19,640
Speaker 13: capital healthscape to mildly less capital healthscape.

2767
02:39:19,800 --> 02:39:19,879
Speaker 1: Ye.

2768
02:39:19,879 --> 02:39:20,800
Speaker 4: Actually you're gonna.

2769
02:39:20,640 --> 02:39:24,119
Speaker 14: Say, yeah, I wanted to just build on this culture thing,

2770
02:39:24,160 --> 02:39:27,240
Speaker 14: because when you know, when after October seventh, when people

2771
02:39:27,280 --> 02:39:29,680
Speaker 14: are getting together to try to figure out how in

2772
02:39:29,760 --> 02:39:32,400
Speaker 14: the United States to do some kind of work and

2773
02:39:32,520 --> 02:39:35,880
Speaker 14: action and support and solidarity with Gaza and the Palestinian

2774
02:39:35,920 --> 02:39:37,960
Speaker 14: Liberation movement, like people were just sort of like, what

2775
02:39:38,080 --> 02:39:39,920
Speaker 14: the hell can we even do? And one of the

2776
02:39:40,000 --> 02:39:41,800
Speaker 14: things that I would say to people is like just

2777
02:39:42,000 --> 02:39:45,480
Speaker 14: putting up stickers and writing about Gaza on the walls,

2778
02:39:45,560 --> 02:39:48,200
Speaker 14: like in graffiti has a huge impact in it. It's

2779
02:39:48,240 --> 02:39:52,280
Speaker 14: overlooked often, I think, as like something that's effective, but

2780
02:39:52,720 --> 02:39:55,240
Speaker 14: we can see that there has been a giant cultural

2781
02:39:55,360 --> 02:39:58,960
Speaker 14: shift after October seventh in terms of people's awareness of

2782
02:39:59,160 --> 02:40:02,360
Speaker 14: the Israeli Gino side against the Palestinians and then support

2783
02:40:02,480 --> 02:40:06,080
Speaker 14: for the Palestinians. I think that it has to do really,

2784
02:40:06,240 --> 02:40:08,800
Speaker 14: you know, post October seventh, with the fact that this

2785
02:40:09,000 --> 02:40:12,160
Speaker 14: was like kind of plastered everywhere, and so it's easy

2786
02:40:12,240 --> 02:40:15,400
Speaker 14: to kind of think that that isn't action. But to me,

2787
02:40:15,640 --> 02:40:18,000
Speaker 14: in a way, doing something like that is more effective

2788
02:40:18,080 --> 02:40:20,440
Speaker 14: than the kind of marching in circles that we can

2789
02:40:20,560 --> 02:40:24,640
Speaker 14: do that we call protest, and you know, like going

2790
02:40:24,680 --> 02:40:27,520
Speaker 14: back to punk, I think also punk has gets a

2791
02:40:27,560 --> 02:40:30,160
Speaker 14: bad rap sometimes because you know, in that line of

2792
02:40:30,200 --> 02:40:34,480
Speaker 14: like the kind of bookschin lifestyleism. But I don't think

2793
02:40:34,520 --> 02:40:38,840
Speaker 14: we should downplay like punk created its own culture of

2794
02:40:39,120 --> 02:40:43,039
Speaker 14: people doing everything themselves to make it happen. It's where

2795
02:40:43,120 --> 02:40:46,560
Speaker 14: I got radicalized too. And they were like it was anarchists, right,

2796
02:40:46,600 --> 02:40:50,120
Speaker 14: It was like explicitly anarchist, and you were living in

2797
02:40:50,240 --> 02:40:53,720
Speaker 14: an anarchist way and like creating things in an anarchist.

2798
02:40:53,320 --> 02:40:55,000
Speaker 16: Way, and it was this whole other world.

2799
02:40:55,120 --> 02:40:58,880
Speaker 14: So like, if we put our anarchist energy into culture,

2800
02:40:59,280 --> 02:41:02,000
Speaker 14: it's part of making a world that we want to

2801
02:41:02,120 --> 02:41:05,560
Speaker 14: live in, you know, over and against this world, this

2802
02:41:05,680 --> 02:41:08,080
Speaker 14: hell world that we're also trying to destroy at the

2803
02:41:08,160 --> 02:41:11,360
Speaker 14: same time. So I think we shouldn't kind of just

2804
02:41:11,480 --> 02:41:15,920
Speaker 14: like dismiss this as as less important than the other

2805
02:41:16,080 --> 02:41:17,560
Speaker 14: kinds of actions that we can take.

2806
02:41:18,360 --> 02:41:20,760
Speaker 13: You're here, yeah, And that brings me to something I

2807
02:41:20,840 --> 02:41:23,760
Speaker 13: wanted to sort of ask about, like more deliberately, which

2808
02:41:23,800 --> 02:41:26,880
Speaker 13: is like, what's the kind of specific political intervention that

2809
02:41:27,120 --> 02:41:29,880
Speaker 13: you're trying to make into this moment with this project

2810
02:41:29,920 --> 02:41:32,000
Speaker 13: and both stor I guess a bit more generally too

2811
02:41:33,000 --> 02:41:33,520
Speaker 13: big question.

2812
02:41:35,959 --> 02:41:40,640
Speaker 9: I mean, my work has always been about intervening around

2813
02:41:40,800 --> 02:41:45,000
Speaker 9: any kind of dominant narratives that things are just now bad,

2814
02:41:45,320 --> 02:41:49,600
Speaker 9: or that people don't know what anything, or pedagogically they're lacking.

2815
02:41:49,800 --> 02:41:52,080
Speaker 9: Like I've always tried to intervene around this idea that

2816
02:41:52,160 --> 02:41:55,200
Speaker 9: we've always been otherwise, and we always are, and there's

2817
02:41:55,280 --> 02:41:59,600
Speaker 9: always cracks everywhere and eruptions of batical ways of being,

2818
02:42:00,240 --> 02:42:03,480
Speaker 9: knowing and doing, and so it's like a deepening of that.

2819
02:42:03,640 --> 02:42:07,720
Speaker 9: And I think probably on a systemic thinking systemically is

2820
02:42:07,800 --> 02:42:12,440
Speaker 9: really about disrupting individualism or liberalism or empire, whatever you

2821
02:42:12,480 --> 02:42:15,640
Speaker 9: want of colonialism to really like live it in the everyday.

2822
02:42:16,000 --> 02:42:19,200
Speaker 9: So that's partly that. And then on just a super

2823
02:42:19,320 --> 02:42:22,560
Speaker 9: practical level, like you know, all of us don't have wealth,

2824
02:42:23,160 --> 02:42:26,920
Speaker 9: don't have generational wealth, are working all the time to

2825
02:42:27,000 --> 02:42:29,400
Speaker 9: try to meet and meet and some of us are

2826
02:42:29,800 --> 02:42:35,600
Speaker 9: have housing insecurity and other real basic needs are insecure

2827
02:42:35,640 --> 02:42:38,520
Speaker 9: and health stuff and so like actually showing up for

2828
02:42:38,920 --> 02:42:41,360
Speaker 9: each of us is at the core of it. For me,

2829
02:42:41,680 --> 02:42:45,320
Speaker 9: like I it feels so good in my body to

2830
02:42:45,560 --> 02:42:48,600
Speaker 9: know that I'm not just showing up to think about

2831
02:42:48,640 --> 02:42:51,160
Speaker 9: what to do for cow. For me, it's like in

2832
02:42:51,240 --> 02:42:55,760
Speaker 9: the act of collectivism for each other, and so I'm

2833
02:42:55,879 --> 02:43:00,240
Speaker 9: just open to what sparks and emerges with our work.

2834
02:43:00,280 --> 02:43:04,400
Speaker 9: I don't have an agenda except for to disrupt and

2835
02:43:04,520 --> 02:43:09,640
Speaker 9: intervene belief systems that are ideologically driven by empire. And

2836
02:43:10,080 --> 02:43:12,920
Speaker 9: I also came of age in the early eighties in

2837
02:43:13,040 --> 02:43:15,560
Speaker 9: the punk scene and had a venue space and to me,

2838
02:43:15,720 --> 02:43:17,960
Speaker 9: punk is and I would say hip hop is well

2839
02:43:18,320 --> 02:43:21,960
Speaker 9: underground hip hop stuff is like always The way to

2840
02:43:22,120 --> 02:43:26,040
Speaker 9: disrupt being captured by empire or from liberalism is to

2841
02:43:26,160 --> 02:43:29,280
Speaker 9: keep that punk ethos of doing it together and keeping

2842
02:43:29,360 --> 02:43:30,320
Speaker 9: it low to the ground.

2843
02:43:30,879 --> 02:43:33,560
Speaker 15: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I just like to build on that, Carl,

2844
02:43:33,640 --> 02:43:36,360
Speaker 15: because I think that was really beautiful. Second, everything that

2845
02:43:36,440 --> 02:43:38,680
Speaker 15: you said is it like many of us have a perspective.

2846
02:43:38,879 --> 02:43:41,040
Speaker 15: You know that huge structural change is going to need

2847
02:43:41,120 --> 02:43:43,039
Speaker 15: to come, and that often that will come through these

2848
02:43:43,080 --> 02:43:46,600
Speaker 15: big social movements, that these explosions of energy that you know,

2849
02:43:46,680 --> 02:43:50,080
Speaker 15: these lightning strikes, right, But you can't force those, you

2850
02:43:50,160 --> 02:43:54,000
Speaker 15: can't make those happen. Yeah, and in the meantime you can.

2851
02:43:54,480 --> 02:43:56,360
Speaker 15: I think I've spent a lot of my in the

2852
02:43:56,440 --> 02:44:00,680
Speaker 15: meantimes in trying to sort of organ stuff that sort

2853
02:44:00,680 --> 02:44:03,120
Speaker 15: of oriented towards mass movement, you know, and it just

2854
02:44:03,200 --> 02:44:05,880
Speaker 15: feels often feels like wheel spinning, you know, like I'm building,

2855
02:44:05,879 --> 02:44:08,360
Speaker 15: I'm trying to build mass movement organizing like you know,

2856
02:44:08,480 --> 02:44:11,040
Speaker 15: like whatever that means. And in the twenty tens, like

2857
02:44:11,120 --> 02:44:13,560
Speaker 15: one of the things that happens from like twenty eleven,

2858
02:44:14,000 --> 02:44:15,920
Speaker 15: are you by two thousand nine, but definitely twenty eleven

2859
02:44:16,280 --> 02:44:18,720
Speaker 15: to twenty twenty was that wherever you were, it was

2860
02:44:18,760 --> 02:44:21,080
Speaker 15: never more than probably eighteen months before there was like

2861
02:44:21,160 --> 02:44:24,200
Speaker 15: something else going off in the streets. And so although

2862
02:44:24,200 --> 02:44:26,560
Speaker 15: those could be very hard, those waves could be very difficult,

2863
02:44:27,080 --> 02:44:29,960
Speaker 15: you still had a lot of periods where you know,

2864
02:44:30,080 --> 02:44:31,600
Speaker 15: you could just sort of be waiting and it would

2865
02:44:31,600 --> 02:44:32,200
Speaker 15: just sort of happened.

2866
02:44:32,240 --> 02:44:32,440
Speaker 1: Again.

2867
02:44:32,840 --> 02:44:34,640
Speaker 15: That was certainly what I was doing in that decade

2868
02:44:34,879 --> 02:44:37,080
Speaker 15: in a way that I don't think I appreciated until

2869
02:44:37,120 --> 02:44:40,080
Speaker 15: it was over, because the last four years has been

2870
02:44:40,160 --> 02:44:42,320
Speaker 15: very different. The rhythm has been very different since the

2871
02:44:42,840 --> 02:44:46,920
Speaker 15: pandemic started. And I can't just say Panini on this podcast, Okay,

2872
02:44:49,160 --> 02:44:52,360
Speaker 15: everyone does it right, yeah, Sin since the dynamics started,

2873
02:44:53,400 --> 02:44:55,680
Speaker 15: you know, those rhythms have been disrupted, and I think

2874
02:44:55,720 --> 02:44:58,800
Speaker 15: the Biden counter revolution against Way twenty, which has also

2875
02:44:58,840 --> 02:45:02,240
Speaker 15: really disrupted those things in that space. It has felt

2876
02:45:02,320 --> 02:45:04,320
Speaker 15: very clear to me personally. And I'm older, you know whatever.

2877
02:45:04,480 --> 02:45:06,480
Speaker 15: I'm like, you know, a movement elder at this point,

2878
02:45:06,600 --> 02:45:08,920
Speaker 15: just because our movements are so you focused now, because

2879
02:45:09,360 --> 02:45:14,120
Speaker 15: I'm actually old. Like the decade before twenty eleven, from

2880
02:45:14,160 --> 02:45:16,280
Speaker 15: like two thousand and one, you know, from from nine

2881
02:45:16,280 --> 02:45:18,200
Speaker 15: to eleven until it sort of occupies sort of how

2882
02:45:18,240 --> 02:45:20,760
Speaker 15: I periodize it a bit. There wasn't a ton of

2883
02:45:20,800 --> 02:45:22,920
Speaker 15: street movement. You had the Iraq War stuff that was really,

2884
02:45:22,959 --> 02:45:25,160
Speaker 15: really big, and there were important exceptions to that in

2885
02:45:25,160 --> 02:45:27,720
Speaker 15: the US. I'm doing a potted history here. Obviously there's

2886
02:45:27,760 --> 02:45:30,640
Speaker 15: exceptions to this, but you definitely had all this time,

2887
02:45:30,760 --> 02:45:33,280
Speaker 15: and the stuff that was sustained and remembered were largely

2888
02:45:33,360 --> 02:45:35,680
Speaker 15: like sort of cultural projects, and so like I think

2889
02:45:35,760 --> 02:45:38,400
Speaker 15: like now as we're moving into this era here in

2890
02:45:38,480 --> 02:45:44,040
Speaker 15: North America on Turtle Island of extreme repressive danger, right, like,

2891
02:45:44,120 --> 02:45:46,360
Speaker 15: we shouldn't like joke about it or downplay it. Like

2892
02:45:46,400 --> 02:45:49,119
Speaker 15: we were facing a lot of extreme repression and fascists

2893
02:45:49,160 --> 02:45:51,240
Speaker 15: back in the streets in a big way. It doesn't

2894
02:45:51,280 --> 02:45:55,040
Speaker 15: feel like big political organizing of the kind that happened

2895
02:45:55,080 --> 02:45:56,920
Speaker 15: during the first Trump administration where people did a lot

2896
02:45:56,959 --> 02:45:59,480
Speaker 15: of marching in circles, but there were targets for the pressure,

2897
02:46:00,040 --> 02:46:01,640
Speaker 15: you know, like they don't feel as relevant now, but

2898
02:46:01,760 --> 02:46:05,120
Speaker 15: now I'm really off, way off. But no, but no,

2899
02:46:05,240 --> 02:46:06,800
Speaker 15: I think so, I think like I think like we're

2900
02:46:06,840 --> 02:46:11,119
Speaker 15: in this moment where the fascists both are quite empowered

2901
02:46:11,200 --> 02:46:15,000
Speaker 15: and very unfocused. They're confused, they don't really have us

2902
02:46:15,080 --> 02:46:17,560
Speaker 15: in their sights, like they think Liz Cheney is just

2903
02:46:17,600 --> 02:46:20,600
Speaker 15: as much a revolutionary as Assadashikur or whatever, right, and

2904
02:46:20,760 --> 02:46:23,800
Speaker 15: like that leaves us some space to move and to

2905
02:46:23,920 --> 02:46:26,760
Speaker 15: build things that can maintain the spirit of resistance, that

2906
02:46:26,840 --> 02:46:30,720
Speaker 15: can reproduce a culture of resistance that can also organize.

2907
02:46:30,760 --> 02:46:33,320
Speaker 15: And another thing that has really been important for me

2908
02:46:33,440 --> 02:46:35,880
Speaker 15: recently with Kaw is that I've been doing an organizing

2909
02:46:35,920 --> 02:46:38,000
Speaker 15: project that I won't talk about the details of, but

2910
02:46:38,200 --> 02:46:41,720
Speaker 15: that the skills have largely come from punk music that

2911
02:46:41,800 --> 02:46:43,280
Speaker 15: I did in the twenties twenty is being in a

2912
02:46:43,320 --> 02:46:46,280
Speaker 15: touring punk band, and those skills have made this organizing

2913
02:46:46,360 --> 02:46:49,240
Speaker 15: really easy. And that's been a huge thing for me

2914
02:46:49,360 --> 02:46:51,560
Speaker 15: because I'm working with other people who are younger who

2915
02:46:51,560 --> 02:46:52,919
Speaker 15: don't have that experientially.

2916
02:46:52,680 --> 02:46:53,400
Speaker 2: Oh, how do you do this.

2917
02:46:53,520 --> 02:46:55,240
Speaker 15: I'm like, oh no, no, it's so easy. You just

2918
02:46:55,280 --> 02:46:57,240
Speaker 15: like do this. You know, here's these skills I learned

2919
02:46:57,360 --> 02:47:00,240
Speaker 15: just from doing music, And like, I don't think that's

2920
02:47:00,360 --> 02:47:03,360
Speaker 15: just like accidental, as Shuley was saying, like the DIY

2921
02:47:03,520 --> 02:47:06,200
Speaker 15: nature of some of that work, the culture work. You know,

2922
02:47:06,320 --> 02:47:08,520
Speaker 15: maybe the band wasn't revolutionary. The bands I was in

2923
02:47:08,640 --> 02:47:11,320
Speaker 15: certainly weren't like the revolution or whatever, but they gave

2924
02:47:11,400 --> 02:47:14,080
Speaker 15: me all of these powerful skills and ideas and concepts

2925
02:47:14,400 --> 02:47:16,760
Speaker 15: for doing really important work. And I think that that's

2926
02:47:16,920 --> 02:47:20,040
Speaker 15: also a reason to pursue DIY culture in a way

2927
02:47:20,120 --> 02:47:22,400
Speaker 15: that's genuinely sustainable and world building.

2928
02:47:23,000 --> 02:47:25,000
Speaker 14: I think like if I can build off this too,

2929
02:47:25,400 --> 02:47:28,560
Speaker 14: and I'm going to try to do some tying together

2930
02:47:28,680 --> 02:47:30,880
Speaker 14: of things. But like one of the ways that I

2931
02:47:31,000 --> 02:47:34,320
Speaker 14: think about my contribution is to think about like let's

2932
02:47:34,400 --> 02:47:37,600
Speaker 14: not like don't look there, let's look over here. And

2933
02:47:37,879 --> 02:47:40,440
Speaker 14: that can mean of multiple things, which is often when

2934
02:47:40,480 --> 02:47:44,480
Speaker 14: people think politically, they're looking at these big moments or

2935
02:47:44,600 --> 02:47:48,200
Speaker 14: big actions or like top down solutions, which means that

2936
02:47:48,280 --> 02:47:51,440
Speaker 14: we take our attention away from these other places where

2937
02:47:51,520 --> 02:47:54,680
Speaker 14: we're doing all this stuff like carloisting, like we're already

2938
02:47:54,760 --> 02:47:57,760
Speaker 14: doing a lot of important kind of like life making work.

2939
02:47:58,280 --> 02:48:00,920
Speaker 14: And then also there's moments in in our movements where

2940
02:48:00,959 --> 02:48:03,440
Speaker 14: we have to be like you all look over here

2941
02:48:03,520 --> 02:48:06,200
Speaker 14: while we do stuff over right, Like you don't want

2942
02:48:06,240 --> 02:48:07,920
Speaker 14: to be seen all the time, so we have to

2943
02:48:07,959 --> 02:48:09,800
Speaker 14: be able to direct our attention to the things that

2944
02:48:09,879 --> 02:48:12,240
Speaker 14: we do and then also keep some of that stuff

2945
02:48:12,320 --> 02:48:15,119
Speaker 14: under wraps, and that means it's hard sometimes to see

2946
02:48:15,520 --> 02:48:19,519
Speaker 14: and because it's so decentralized, and anarchism really functions through decentralization,

2947
02:48:20,040 --> 02:48:22,960
Speaker 14: like we're not always aware of how much power we

2948
02:48:23,080 --> 02:48:26,119
Speaker 14: actually have and what's going on at.

2949
02:48:26,040 --> 02:48:26,880
Speaker 16: Any one moment.

2950
02:48:27,520 --> 02:48:30,080
Speaker 14: And going back to the kind of moments, even tracing

2951
02:48:30,240 --> 02:48:32,720
Speaker 14: back to the Battle of Seattle, and I think it's

2952
02:48:32,800 --> 02:48:35,280
Speaker 14: like ever more present today in all of the kinds

2953
02:48:35,320 --> 02:48:38,280
Speaker 14: of organizing for street actions that are being done, that

2954
02:48:38,520 --> 02:48:41,080
Speaker 14: a lot of the groundwork for any of these moments

2955
02:48:41,240 --> 02:48:44,480
Speaker 14: is done by anarchists, and then it's not either claimed

2956
02:48:44,520 --> 02:48:48,200
Speaker 14: by anarchists or it's stolen from anarchists, Like we make

2957
02:48:48,480 --> 02:48:53,480
Speaker 14: everything sort of run, and anarchism makes everything run, and

2958
02:48:53,640 --> 02:48:57,080
Speaker 14: then it just gets ignored because it's not about taking credit,

2959
02:48:57,160 --> 02:49:00,120
Speaker 14: it's not about kind of imposing itself. And so I

2960
02:49:00,240 --> 02:49:03,840
Speaker 14: think like that kind of in between of seeing what

2961
02:49:03,920 --> 02:49:06,960
Speaker 14: we're doing and sharing that knowledge and then keeping under

2962
02:49:07,000 --> 02:49:10,000
Speaker 14: wrap so that we can keep chugging along, and then

2963
02:49:10,080 --> 02:49:12,039
Speaker 14: just also being aware of when our work is being

2964
02:49:12,120 --> 02:49:14,960
Speaker 14: stolen and then repurposed for something that goes against what

2965
02:49:15,080 --> 02:49:15,440
Speaker 14: we want.

2966
02:49:15,520 --> 02:49:18,039
Speaker 16: I think these are all ways for us to prepare for.

2967
02:49:18,120 --> 02:49:22,600
Speaker 14: Those moments of like explosion or eruption where anarchy really

2968
02:49:22,720 --> 02:49:25,600
Speaker 14: manifests and then we can kind of taste freedom for

2969
02:49:25,680 --> 02:49:26,880
Speaker 14: a moment, love it.

2970
02:49:27,959 --> 02:49:28,160
Speaker 12: Yeah.

2971
02:49:28,480 --> 02:49:30,520
Speaker 13: I think though the way I've always thought about it

2972
02:49:30,720 --> 02:49:33,440
Speaker 13: was just kind of like, is this like flame tending

2973
02:49:33,560 --> 02:49:37,400
Speaker 13: process where in these sort of low cycles, your job

2974
02:49:37,680 --> 02:49:41,160
Speaker 13: is to keep the flame alive and eventually you know

2975
02:49:41,400 --> 02:49:43,600
Speaker 13: that you're going to see it, Like you know you're

2976
02:49:43,600 --> 02:49:45,160
Speaker 13: going to see the explosion again, right, You're going to

2977
02:49:45,200 --> 02:49:49,080
Speaker 13: see the flame. But like that, that doesn't happen unless

2978
02:49:49,280 --> 02:49:51,640
Speaker 13: the flame is still there and unless people have been

2979
02:49:51,680 --> 02:49:53,560
Speaker 13: tending it and people have been trying to make it grow.

2980
02:49:53,640 --> 02:49:57,320
Speaker 13: And you can't necessarily just like add fuel to it

2981
02:49:57,400 --> 02:49:59,080
Speaker 13: and be like, ah, it's gonna.

2982
02:49:58,840 --> 02:49:59,600
Speaker 4: Grow now, right it?

2983
02:50:00,000 --> 02:50:01,720
Speaker 13: You know, you don't you don't really have control of

2984
02:50:02,240 --> 02:50:05,040
Speaker 13: how it sort of moves and grows, it expands, but

2985
02:50:05,160 --> 02:50:07,840
Speaker 13: you have control over your ability to like make sure

2986
02:50:07,879 --> 02:50:08,640
Speaker 13: that it keeps.

2987
02:50:08,480 --> 02:50:11,720
Speaker 9: Going absolutely all about Bambers.

2988
02:50:12,640 --> 02:50:15,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think also, like I think about the

2989
02:50:15,640 --> 02:50:16,480
Speaker 4: punk metaphor a lot.

2990
02:50:16,560 --> 02:50:17,920
Speaker 13: Like one of the ways that I've been thinking a

2991
02:50:17,959 --> 02:50:19,800
Speaker 13: lot about like what we're doing here and it could

2992
02:50:19,800 --> 02:50:22,480
Speaker 13: happen here is we kind of took the like we

2993
02:50:22,720 --> 02:50:25,560
Speaker 13: took the ridge against the machine gambit, which is to say,

2994
02:50:25,640 --> 02:50:28,000
Speaker 13: we were like we're like, Okay, we're going to go

2995
02:50:28,080 --> 02:50:30,440
Speaker 13: to try to go somewhat mainstream in order to I

2996
02:50:30,520 --> 02:50:32,600
Speaker 13: mean bridge but obviously like well, way bigger than we did,

2997
02:50:32,640 --> 02:50:33,879
Speaker 13: but like we're going to go try to some We're

2998
02:50:33,879 --> 02:50:35,960
Speaker 13: going to go like somewhat mainstream so we can like

2999
02:50:36,800 --> 02:50:39,080
Speaker 13: spread this thing to a larger group of people. That's

3000
02:50:39,120 --> 02:50:42,119
Speaker 13: also very very dangerous in the sense that like it's

3001
02:50:42,240 --> 02:50:44,800
Speaker 13: very easy to sort of just lose yourself in the

3002
02:50:44,920 --> 02:50:47,360
Speaker 13: kind of mire of like the field you've walked into.

3003
02:50:47,440 --> 02:50:48,720
Speaker 4: But on the other hand, the.

3004
02:50:48,840 --> 02:50:51,440
Speaker 13: Upside about it is that we're not the only people

3005
02:50:51,920 --> 02:50:54,320
Speaker 13: doing this, right, and there's all of you out there

3006
02:50:54,360 --> 02:50:56,680
Speaker 13: who are who are doing this, Like everyone on this

3007
02:50:56,800 --> 02:51:00,200
Speaker 13: call is doing this, like is doing the like like

3008
02:51:00,280 --> 02:51:03,360
Speaker 13: the DIY work that is going to be the core

3009
02:51:03,640 --> 02:51:06,520
Speaker 13: of what this whole thing becomes. And the more the

3010
02:51:06,600 --> 02:51:08,200
Speaker 13: more of these media projects we get and the more

3011
02:51:08,240 --> 02:51:10,880
Speaker 13: that people are able to sustain themselves doing this, the

3012
02:51:10,959 --> 02:51:13,240
Speaker 13: more that we're sort of able to break, like I

3013
02:51:13,280 --> 02:51:16,360
Speaker 13: don't know, just like the model maniacal substack control of

3014
02:51:16,560 --> 02:51:20,400
Speaker 13: like taking your money and giving it the transphobes kind

3015
02:51:20,480 --> 02:51:20,760
Speaker 13: of thing.

3016
02:51:20,920 --> 02:51:23,240
Speaker 4: The better shape we're going to be in the years

3017
02:51:23,280 --> 02:51:24,280
Speaker 4: to come exactly.

3018
02:51:24,400 --> 02:51:27,480
Speaker 15: And speaking of which, one thing anarchists are famously bad

3019
02:51:27,520 --> 02:51:30,600
Speaker 15: at doing is accepting that we do require money and

3020
02:51:30,680 --> 02:51:32,160
Speaker 15: asking for it. So I'm going to do that for

3021
02:51:32,240 --> 02:51:32,640
Speaker 15: the squad.

3022
02:51:32,760 --> 02:51:32,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3023
02:51:33,040 --> 02:51:36,040
Speaker 15: We are currently fundraising because it's actually really hard to

3024
02:51:36,120 --> 02:51:39,240
Speaker 15: make something sustainable for four people. Yeah, man, because we

3025
02:51:39,320 --> 02:51:41,600
Speaker 15: have a fundraiser going on. If you like what we're

3026
02:51:41,640 --> 02:51:44,720
Speaker 15: talking about here, you can donate to our Indiegogo literally

3027
02:51:44,800 --> 02:51:48,000
Speaker 15: anything helps. Once we fully launch in February, we're going

3028
02:51:48,080 --> 02:51:50,200
Speaker 15: to have a pay what you want subscription model, so

3029
02:51:50,320 --> 02:51:52,680
Speaker 15: everything will be subscribed. But we really want to have

3030
02:51:52,800 --> 02:51:55,680
Speaker 15: three months worth of living wage for all of us

3031
02:51:55,720 --> 02:51:57,160
Speaker 15: to do two days a week on it, right, So

3032
02:51:57,480 --> 02:51:59,640
Speaker 15: we're not even you know, we're not talking full salaries.

3033
02:52:00,040 --> 02:52:02,560
Speaker 15: That's forty five thousand dollars because four people for three months,

3034
02:52:02,600 --> 02:52:05,000
Speaker 15: it's not even a tremendous amount of money because we're

3035
02:52:05,000 --> 02:52:07,360
Speaker 15: including solidarity funds in that and like paying any writers

3036
02:52:07,400 --> 02:52:09,840
Speaker 15: who contribute, like lots of other stuff. So yeah, if

3037
02:52:09,879 --> 02:52:12,040
Speaker 15: you have a few bucks and you know, maybe you're

3038
02:52:12,040 --> 02:52:13,920
Speaker 15: thinking about, you know, getting off of one of those

3039
02:52:13,959 --> 02:52:15,800
Speaker 15: substacks or something, and you want to throw our way,

3040
02:52:16,080 --> 02:52:18,640
Speaker 15: we would be absolutely honored. I'm very excited to accept

3041
02:52:18,640 --> 02:52:21,920
Speaker 15: anything in this launch. And if you don't have that money,

3042
02:52:21,959 --> 02:52:23,560
Speaker 15: which is i know true for a lot of us,

3043
02:52:23,600 --> 02:52:25,520
Speaker 15: which is why we feel bad asking for the money

3044
02:52:26,000 --> 02:52:27,720
Speaker 15: because there are so many people who need it right now.

3045
02:52:28,320 --> 02:52:30,879
Speaker 15: You can subscribe online. You can find us on social

3046
02:52:30,959 --> 02:52:33,320
Speaker 15: media and keep in touch until we do launch, and

3047
02:52:33,360 --> 02:52:35,600
Speaker 15: then you can join and subscribe that way. That's also

3048
02:52:35,760 --> 02:52:38,120
Speaker 15: a really great way to support us. But if you

3049
02:52:38,200 --> 02:52:39,760
Speaker 15: have a few bucks you want to throw, if you

3050
02:52:39,800 --> 02:52:42,000
Speaker 15: want to give someone a present of a year's membership,

3051
02:52:42,040 --> 02:52:44,400
Speaker 15: you can get that for one hundred dollars for the holidays,

3052
02:52:44,440 --> 02:52:48,200
Speaker 15: you know, radicalize your uncle, you know, just with our work,

3053
02:52:48,400 --> 02:52:49,560
Speaker 15: we'd really really appreciate it.

3054
02:52:49,680 --> 02:52:54,439
Speaker 13: And yeah, thanks Vicky, yeah, and I don't know, I'm

3055
02:52:54,480 --> 02:52:56,320
Speaker 13: excited for this. There's already been a bunch of great

3056
02:52:56,360 --> 02:52:58,880
Speaker 13: stuff that's up on the site. We will have links

3057
02:52:58,879 --> 02:53:01,320
Speaker 13: to everything in the description. Yeah, thank you, thank you

3058
02:53:01,440 --> 02:53:03,959
Speaker 13: three for coming on the show. And I'm really excited

3059
02:53:04,000 --> 02:53:04,320
Speaker 13: about this.

3060
02:53:04,920 --> 02:53:05,880
Speaker 9: Well, thanks for having us.

3061
02:53:06,200 --> 02:53:07,560
Speaker 16: Yeah, thanks for the chance to share it.

3062
02:53:07,600 --> 02:53:10,160
Speaker 14: And like I always say, like if anyone is interested

3063
02:53:10,200 --> 02:53:11,880
Speaker 14: and wants to get in touch, I'm happy to hear

3064
02:53:11,920 --> 02:53:12,120
Speaker 14: from you.

3065
02:53:12,280 --> 02:53:15,200
Speaker 9: And yeah, yeah, same, and reach out to us too.

3066
02:53:15,400 --> 02:53:18,000
Speaker 9: A few ideas on what cost stands for. We love

3067
02:53:18,080 --> 02:53:21,800
Speaker 9: hearing from people. My favorite is kN the anarchist right,

3068
02:53:22,120 --> 02:53:24,880
Speaker 9: that's what it stands for. I don't know who came

3069
02:53:24,959 --> 02:53:26,520
Speaker 9: up with that. I think that might have been Schuerlier, Victy,

3070
02:53:26,560 --> 02:53:27,280
Speaker 9: but it's a good one.

3071
02:53:28,360 --> 02:53:29,720
Speaker 16: TVD, TBD.

3072
02:53:31,480 --> 02:53:33,960
Speaker 9: So yeah, send in what you think. And we also

3073
02:53:34,040 --> 02:53:35,960
Speaker 9: are going to have an advice column that's going to

3074
02:53:36,000 --> 02:53:39,680
Speaker 9: be launched soon. Yeah, so send us questions or individually

3075
02:53:39,840 --> 02:53:42,879
Speaker 9: or whatever, but you know, disrupt individualism, reach out to us.

3076
02:53:43,959 --> 02:53:46,840
Speaker 15: Yeah, thanks so much. And yeah, as a long time listener,

3077
02:53:47,360 --> 02:53:49,039
Speaker 15: first time caller, it's really exciting to be on here.

3078
02:53:49,120 --> 02:53:50,480
Speaker 1: So thank you Mia so much.

3079
02:53:50,680 --> 02:53:53,800
Speaker 4: That's not true, hold time all right, sorry, I.

3080
02:53:56,760 --> 02:53:58,279
Speaker 15: Just go on so many podcasts.

3081
02:54:01,360 --> 02:54:01,600
Speaker 9: Sorry.

3082
02:54:01,680 --> 02:54:04,800
Speaker 15: Yeah, well anyway, it's really exciting to be here and

3083
02:54:04,920 --> 02:54:07,040
Speaker 15: talking to everyone, and we have to meet y'all in

3084
02:54:07,160 --> 02:54:09,000
Speaker 15: the future. And kay, we'll have a well, we will

3085
02:54:09,000 --> 02:54:11,720
Speaker 15: have a discord community. We'll be having like writing class.

3086
02:54:11,760 --> 02:54:13,360
Speaker 15: We're gonna have a lot of like really exciting stuff.

3087
02:54:13,440 --> 02:54:15,720
Speaker 15: So even if you can't throw in money right now,

3088
02:54:15,800 --> 02:54:18,440
Speaker 15: please sign up to our website, cosh anythings dot com.

3089
02:54:18,879 --> 02:54:21,280
Speaker 15: Stay in touch and find out all the really cool

3090
02:54:21,360 --> 02:54:22,000
Speaker 15: stuff we're doing.

3091
02:54:22,400 --> 02:54:25,000
Speaker 14: And just to reiterate, like all the stuff that we're

3092
02:54:25,040 --> 02:54:27,720
Speaker 14: already doing is now going to have a home and call.

3093
02:54:27,920 --> 02:54:33,880
Speaker 14: So like my essays and podcasts, Vicki's reviews and essays,

3094
02:54:34,440 --> 02:54:38,720
Speaker 14: and Carla's many projects which include podcasts and writing and

3095
02:54:39,000 --> 02:54:42,160
Speaker 14: these interviews, Danny's writing and classes.

3096
02:54:42,480 --> 02:54:44,520
Speaker 16: Yeah, this is all moving there.

3097
02:54:44,959 --> 02:54:47,440
Speaker 9: Plus new things doing it together.

3098
02:54:48,400 --> 02:54:52,039
Speaker 13: Yeah, in that spirit, you two, dear listener, can can

3099
02:54:52,120 --> 02:54:55,000
Speaker 13: do things together and go disrupt this world. So go

3100
02:54:55,160 --> 02:54:58,240
Speaker 13: do that now instead of listening to whatever else it

3101
02:54:58,360 --> 02:55:01,760
Speaker 13: tappling on the show. This is ending is not going well,

3102
02:55:01,800 --> 02:55:04,160
Speaker 13: but go go to srub fas get it.

3103
02:55:04,800 --> 02:55:05,360
Speaker 1: Thanks so much.

3104
02:55:06,840 --> 02:55:09,960
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday. With more episodes every week

3105
02:55:10,080 --> 02:55:11,920
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3106
02:55:12,520 --> 02:55:15,000
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3107
02:55:15,200 --> 02:55:18,199
Speaker 9: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3108
02:55:18,320 --> 02:55:21,840
Speaker 9: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3109
02:55:21,959 --> 02:55:24,800
Speaker 9: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3110
02:55:25,280 --> 02:55:27,200
Speaker 13: You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here

3111
02:55:27,240 --> 02:55:29,039
Speaker 13: listed directly in episode descriptions.

3112
02:55:29,400 --> 02:55:30,200
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.