1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: For the last thirty years, Dora Dematos Teshera has spent 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: many of her days cracking coconuts cool cool Sancha's her 4 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: son Ismaeil, collects them every day and brings them home 5 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: with his donkey's day. Then then Dora gets cracking. She 6 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 2: says she does this from seven in the morning to 7 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 2: two in the afternoon. It's tiring work. Dora spoke with 8 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 2: Bloomberg's Brazil bureau chief Vanessa Dezaim in the backyard of 9 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: her small home in the Amazon. The coconuts shoes cracking 10 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: come from the Babasoo palm tree. It's a hearty species, 11 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 2: one that survived even as commercial agriculture and other industries 12 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 2: have cleared much of the rainforest in the area. 13 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: It is really a tree that tests value in every 14 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: single part. For example, the fronts of this tree can 15 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: be woven into touched roofs and mats, and also there 16 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: are the empty shells and they use that for cooking. 17 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: So it's a whole supply chain that has been fed 18 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: by a tree in what this tree produces. 19 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 2: Dora gets her income from selling babazo to local grocery 20 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,279 Speaker 2: stores and middlemen that feed a local supply chain. Oil 21 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 2: is produced from the kernels inside these coconuts, which is 22 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: then used for soaps and body lotions. So the more 23 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 2: Dora breaks, the more she makes. 24 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: She doesn't stop breaking while she's speaking because there's no time. 25 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: She needs to break nuts her whole day long. 26 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: Dora says, if she works hard, she can earn about 27 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 2: five dollars a day. She's part of the local Babasu economy, 28 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: which has been strengthened in recent years by the Amazon Fund. 29 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: The fund has supported a local cooperative that owns grocery 30 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: stores and a nearby Babasu processing factory. Money from the 31 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: fund helped that cooperative buy new equipment and double its revenue. 32 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: The Amazon Fund is a state initiative that gets donations 33 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: from countries all over the world, and lately it's taken 34 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,839 Speaker 2: a closer look at how to help the people who 35 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 2: live and work off the land. 36 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,239 Speaker 1: The Amazon Fund has always been looking at the forest, 37 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: but in the less years, it's more and more looking 38 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: into people. Today. 39 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 2: On the show, a new chapter in Brazil's efforts to 40 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: save the Amazon and why the country is betting that 41 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: you can't protect the environment without investing in local economies. 42 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 2: I'm Sarah Holder, and this is the big take from 43 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 2: Bloomberg News. Bloomberg's Brazil bureau chief Finessa Dezaim has been 44 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: reporting on the twin crises of the Amazon, deforestation and poverty. 45 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 2: To grasp the scale of the challenges, it helps to 46 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: have a sense of the geography. Well, to start, can 47 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: you just help us understand the region you're reporting on, 48 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 2: Brazil's Amazon. 49 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: So the Brazilian Amazon Territory is larger than the European Union, 50 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: only the Brazilian part of it, and it's hom nowadays 51 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: to thirty million people, more than a third of them 52 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: leave in poverty. 53 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 2: The number of people living in the region has tripled 54 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 2: since the nineteen seventies, and more than a fifth of 55 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: the country's rainforest has already vanished. And Vanessa says the 56 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: regions with the most deforestation also face the biggest economic challenges. 57 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: One example is Marino, where Dora lives. It's the most 58 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: densely populated state in the Amazon. Almost fifty eight percent 59 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: of the population there lives below the poverty line. 60 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: It has lost more than three quarters of the original 61 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: forest cover, and that's not a coincidence that it has 62 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: some of the worst social indicators in the whole country. 63 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: Vanessa says much of the deforestation has been driven by 64 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,239 Speaker 2: commercial agriculture, cattle ranching, and illegal mining operations. 65 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: But another thing that wait it's covered too, is that, 66 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: of course there are people living there and they need 67 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:36,799 Speaker 1: to make a living. 68 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: In some cases, small time farmers also contribute to deforestation 69 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 2: by clearing land to grow cash crops like soybeans. Over time, 70 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: their work depletes the soil and they don't have resources 71 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: like fertilizer to replenish it. 72 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: So what they do they cut a little bit of 73 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: more trees and then they can grow beans in a 74 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: new area. But then in years this is going to 75 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: be depleted. 76 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 2: That's where environmental initiatives like the Amazon Fund come in. 77 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 3: So the Amazon Fund was created years ago to protect 78 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 3: first of all, to protect the Amazon Forest, to monitor 79 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 3: deforestation and to curb deforestation. 80 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: The fund was started in two thousand and eight under 81 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 2: President Luise and Nacio Lula de Silva with the support 82 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: of Germany and Norway, and since then other countries have 83 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 2: also made donations. 84 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: We have contributions come from Germany, Norway, UK, US and 85 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: many other countries that now have revealed the intention to 86 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: contribute with the fund. 87 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 2: For years, the Amazon Fund mostly poured its resources into 88 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: environmental efforts like recovering deforested areas or managing public forests. 89 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: But now Brazil's government is taking a new approach. They're 90 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: trying to address the needs of people in the Amazon, 91 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: like those low farmers, with the understanding that if you 92 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: help people living on the land, you help the land too. 93 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: The challenge is how we can stop deforestation, how we 94 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: can protect the forest, but how can we protect the 95 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: humans that are there. 96 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 2: Vanessa says the fund's new investments have helped support a 97 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 2: whole sustainable supply chain. Once you witnessed an action. On 98 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: that reporting trip to Marnyo. 99 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: I saw a type of economy that I've never seen before, 100 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: which is a babasu economy. 101 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 2: She told me about going to a small supermarket in 102 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 2: a Brazilian village where locals brought bags of babasu nuts. 103 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: And they were exchanging it for products, for a pasta, 104 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: for beverages, for you know, contents of milk, for everything 105 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: they needed for that day. So they you really use 106 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: babasu as payment as a curancy. What did you. 107 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 2: Learn about the Babasu economy overall or the challenges facing 108 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 2: the Amazon region through talking to Dora and to her family. 109 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: First, it is very important to keep trees stand because 110 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: these people depend on them. Second, I was impressed by 111 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: how you can develop a supply chain that feeds into 112 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: your self, that helps a whole region to develop, and 113 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: still you are protecting the forest. So it is possible 114 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,239 Speaker 1: that people can't earn money and keep the forest standing. 115 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: But the Amazon Fund also has critics, people who say 116 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: it's approached to supporting economies in the region, hasn't gone 117 00:07:46,720 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 2: far enough. That's next. Bloomberg's Vanessa is A has been 118 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: reporting on how the Amazon Fund is trying to stop 119 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: deforestation in Brazil by giving economic incentives to the people 120 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: who live there, but some say the project has its shortcomings. 121 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: What's the biggest problem with how the fund works? According 122 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: to critics. 123 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: Many analysts and specialists I talk it to, They say 124 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: that the fund for now is really focused in forest 125 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: and also in the countryside. That's where you can easily 126 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: build up thesustainable supply chains, for example. But the big 127 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: cities in the Amazon also face huge challenges with in commerce. 128 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 2: Vanessa says that even though many people around the world 129 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: imagine the Amazon as a lush rainforest, about eighty percent 130 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: of the region's population lives in rapidly growing cities that 131 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,119 Speaker 2: are struggling to keep up with the influx of new arrivals. 132 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: Many of those cities have these huge islams, we call it. 133 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 4: VELAs, and these areas are being expanded and really it's 134 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 4: getting more and more dance and infrastructure is very weak 135 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 4: in the region, so sewedge treatment, for example, it's very 136 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 4: it's not well developed. 137 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: In the region, the cities in the region. So this 138 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: is one challenge that the Amazon Fund has still to address. 139 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: It's the city problem. 140 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: The other challenge is political. After President Lula set up 141 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: the Amazon Fund in two thousand and eight, it's been 142 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 2: vulnerable to the wins of his successors like JR. Balsonaro, 143 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: who took office in twenty nineteen. 144 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: Former President Jeri Bosonato administration getted government agencies that were 145 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: responsible for protecting the Amazon right, so that allowed illegal 146 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 1: activities including land grads by farmer's lodging and mining. They 147 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: flourished and so the pace of deforestations surged to record 148 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: levels during those years. So because of that Norway and 149 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: other foreign donors halted contributions to the Amazon Fund in protest. 150 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: So it's it's a fund that depends a little bit 151 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: on political will in that sense because donors and its 152 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: international effort, So everybody's watching how is this money being used? 153 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: The necess says the fund has recovered since Lula was 154 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: re elected, but it could face more tests. 155 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: President Lula immediately rebooted the fund when he took office 156 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: in January twenty twenty three, and now the fund is 157 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: in a very good moment. There are many new announcements 158 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: on donations, new countries coming and announcing they will contribute, 159 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: and there's a huge effort on the government to do 160 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: that because that's one of the key pledges of this government. 161 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: But again, who knows how it's going to be in 162 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: the next administration. 163 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: In the meantime, people on the ground are at the 164 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 2: mercy of these shifting political wins. I asked Vanessa how 165 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: her sources are feeling about the fund's future. 166 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: Everybody talking to you said, oh, it's a start. It's 167 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: a start. The awareness that this is needed is key 168 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: because that's what generates measures and initiatives, and maybe you 169 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: don't need to depend on the Amazon fund. Maybe we're 170 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: going to have more measures focals in this situation. So 171 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: people usually say, well, it's not enough, but it's a start. 172 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: As for Dora, Vanessa asked her where she's hoping this 173 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 2: will all. 174 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: Lead and a fally Meccas and taking meccas and can 175 00:11:55,280 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: they tell you Fally Mecca she comes to macas. Dora's 176 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: biggest dream is to have a real house, what she 177 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: calls it, a real house is not a mud house, 178 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: and that's her dream. So she's now really crossing her 179 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: fingers that her son can find another job. 180 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 2: What kind of job does she hope her son will get. 181 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: In a supermarket nearby? Then he could have like a 182 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: fixed income that he can receive every month a paycheck. 183 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 2: And then he could use that to help her exit 184 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 2: her home exit action. This is the big take from 185 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 2: Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder. This episode was produced by 186 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 2: David Fox and Adriana Tapia, who also fact checked the episode. 187 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 2: It was edited by Aaron Edwards and Danielle Balbi. It 188 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: was mixed by Alex Sugia. Our senior producer is Naomi Shaven. 189 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 2: Our senior editor is Elizabeth Ponso. Our executive producer is 190 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 2: Nicole Beemster Boor. Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. 191 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 2: If you like this episode, make sure to subscribe and 192 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 2: review The Big Take wherever you listen to podcasts. It 193 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 2: helps people find the show. Thanks for listening, We'll be 194 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: back tomorrow. 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