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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Greece.

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Speaker 2: Brian Cooberger now charged in the slave of four University

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Speaker 2: Idaho students. The big question right now is how did

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Speaker 2: he turn into the monster?

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Speaker 3: Prosecutors say he is.

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Speaker 2: Looking at a string of alleged incidents all the way

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Speaker 2: back to stalking, allegedly stalking some of the Idaho for

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Speaker 2: digital via social in months leading up to their murders,

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Speaker 2: seeking them out online at least one, if not more,

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Speaker 2: of the girls on King Rhad.

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Speaker 3: How did he find them?

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Speaker 2: Did he somehow run into them when he was there

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Speaker 2: finding an apartment or.

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Speaker 3: Touring campus there.

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Speaker 2: At WSU Washington State University, is that when their paths collided?

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Speaker 2: Did they know they were being watched? Did they ever

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Speaker 2: read his emails he's sent introducing himself or trying to

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Speaker 2: hook up with them, or did it go into a

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Speaker 2: spam folder. Then we have the incident where he allegedly

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Speaker 2: went into a colleague, a female colleagues home there at

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Speaker 2: Washington State University and moved things around in her apartment,

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Speaker 2: manipulating her into coming to him and saying, oh, my stars,

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Speaker 2: guess what happened? Some freak spin in my apartment? And

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Speaker 2: then he swoops in like the savior and sets up

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Speaker 2: her WiFi, finding out the password and security system so

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Speaker 2: he can spy on her remote even from his phone

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Speaker 2: whenever he felt like it. I mean, what kind of

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Speaker 2: a kick do you get from watching somebody else watching

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Speaker 2: TV or doing the dishes, or doing her hair or

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Speaker 2: the Lord only knows what else he watched? Did he

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Speaker 2: install more cameras than what she knows about? Then we

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Speaker 2: have another alleged incident where a neighbor of the king

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Speaker 2: Rode victims, the four victims Mattie, Xana, Kelly, and Ethan

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Speaker 2: that has items taken out of a suitcase which was

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Speaker 2: in her car and the underwear shoved into the door

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Speaker 2: the car door.

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Speaker 3: Around the time of the murders leading up to the murders.

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Speaker 2: What else is there? Is there more? Joining me right now?

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Speaker 2: Is a renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills

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Speaker 2: is doctor Bethany Marshall and you can find her at

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Speaker 2: doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany, thank you for

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Speaker 2: being with us.

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Speaker 4: First of all, I'm happy to be here.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that this evidence will ever make its

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Speaker 2: way to the jury. These alleged similar transactions. Because I

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Speaker 2: know you're psychoanalyst, doctor Bethany, but we have discussed similar

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Speaker 2: transactions many times in the past.

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Speaker 3: You and I.

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Speaker 2: Fingerprint crimes or crimes that tend to prove motive, scheme,

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Speaker 2: frame of mind, course of conduct, and this would definitely

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Speaker 2: fall into motive. Typically, in our jurisprudence system, which we

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Speaker 2: brought over from Great Britain.

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Speaker 3: Past acts bad acts cannot come in. Say, let's just

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Speaker 3: say Jackie.

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Speaker 2: Is accused of shooting Sydney down one day here in

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Speaker 2: the studio. Well, the prosecutor cannot bring the whole list

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Speaker 2: of Jackies shopliftings, sorry Jackie, because they have no bearing

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Speaker 2: on the murder. That's why bad acts are typically not

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Speaker 2: brought into evidence. You don't want a jury rendering a

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Speaker 2: verdict based on a popularity contest. Oh, she's a bad person,

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Speaker 2: she's a shoplifter, let's convict her on murder. No, that's

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Speaker 2: why many bad acts don't ever come within the gr

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Speaker 2: r's purview.

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Speaker 3: They never know about them.

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Speaker 2: That said, if a prior bad act, be it a

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Speaker 2: conviction or no, it doesn't have to be a conviction.

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Speaker 2: If a prior act shows modus operandi method of operation,

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Speaker 2: course of conduct, scheme, frame of mind.

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Speaker 3: Then it can come in.

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Speaker 2: But I don't want to talk to you about the law,

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Speaker 2: whether these will ever come in before a jury. I

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Speaker 2: want to talk to you about the why. And remember,

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Speaker 2: the prosecution doesn't have to prove why, doesn't matter why.

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Speaker 2: So let me ask you, doctor Bethany, why Let's just

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Speaker 2: start at the beginning. Let's start with the case in chief.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think the question of why is so important,

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Speaker 4: perhaps not from a legal perspective, and I think from

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Speaker 4: a psychological perspective for your listeners and for us in

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Speaker 4: society to understand what motivates the Brian Kobergers of this world.

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Speaker 4: So when a patient comes into my office, I try

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Speaker 4: to identify what's called an organizing principle for their personality.

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Speaker 4: Once I know what the organizing principle is, then all

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Speaker 4: of the other behaviors begin to make sense. I would

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Speaker 4: say that Brian Koberger's organizing principle is that he is

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Speaker 4: a sex predator, right, that's fairly obvious at this point,

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Speaker 4: and that there is a pattern to the predation that's

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Speaker 4: beginning to play out in all these various incidences that

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Speaker 4: you're describing, which I think will be fascinating to unpack.

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Speaker 4: But we see spying on an unsuspecting victim. That tells

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Speaker 4: me that he has something called scoptophilia.

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Speaker 3: Let me write that down, and how do you what

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Speaker 3: do you.

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Speaker 4: Say, Scott Cecilia s c O P T O P

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Speaker 4: h I L I as a fancy word for a

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Speaker 4: peeping tom. It's the least everything.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, hold on doctor Bethany being just a JD,

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Speaker 2: not a psychoanalyst like you.

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Speaker 3: Helping all those poor.

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Speaker 2: Pitiful people on Rodeo Drive with all their problems. I

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Speaker 2: know this, and again it's anecdotal, it is not a

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Speaker 2: statistical deduction. But so many times in rape sidnymy h.

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Speaker 2: Not as much in toim molestations, but in rape, sodomy,

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Speaker 2: murders burglaries, I'd look through the defendant's file and this

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Speaker 2: is based on a fingerprint. I'd see all the different

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Speaker 2: aliases and names, and there would almost always be a

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Speaker 2: peeping tom in there, or a loitering or a criminal trespass,

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Speaker 2: which at the moment I saw it, I would know

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Speaker 2: that's peeping Tom, and they charged with trespass because he's

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Speaker 2: like standing outside some lady's window looking in but they

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Speaker 2: were almost always, you know, be there somewhere hidden in

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Speaker 2: all the record.

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Speaker 4: That's right, Nancy. So a couple of things about that.

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Speaker 4: And this is going to sound so freaky and unlikely,

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Speaker 4: but I do believe it to be true. That So,

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Speaker 4: think about the earliest form of sounds.

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Speaker 3: Like criminal sexual deviant behavior, pre k. You start with

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Speaker 3: the paping, okay, pre k Okay.

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Speaker 4: So the earliest form of relating we have as human

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Speaker 4: beings is looking back and forth into our mother's eyes, staring, loving,

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Speaker 4: you know, gazing. It's a very early form of relating.

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Speaker 4: And often these perps, these perpetrators are caught at that

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Speaker 4: earliest level of relating where they just want to scare.

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Speaker 4: They want to look, but they want to look in

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Speaker 4: such a way that the other person doesn't look back.

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Speaker 4: They want to have all the power and the gazing

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Speaker 4: aspect of attachment. Also, these guys are obsessed with sex.

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Speaker 4: They have very prolific fantasy lives. They're probably masturbating as

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Speaker 4: they're looking at the other person. So all the gazing

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Speaker 4: and looking allows them to engage their sexual proclivities without

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Speaker 4: the consent of a partner, without that other person saying, hey,

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Speaker 4: i've had an app. Oh, We've had a wonderful romantic night.

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Speaker 4: We've had a glass of wine, we had dinner, we

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Speaker 4: had sex, time to go to bed. That's a normal

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Speaker 4: sexual relationship. But Brian Kolberger does not want a normal

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Speaker 4: sexual relationship. He wants a sexual relationship in which it's endless,

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Speaker 4: it goes on and on, and his fantasy life is

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Speaker 4: in charge and he can do whatever he wants to

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Speaker 4: the victims. So it's a very dominant type sexual relationship

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Speaker 4: with the other. And I think this is why this

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Speaker 4: is sort of at the beginning of these offending patterns.

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Speaker 4: Remember the scoptophilia or the peeping tom activities were there

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Speaker 4: from the very beginning. It's like being a peeping tom

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Speaker 4: is like putting on the training wheels. That's where it

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Speaker 4: all starts.

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Speaker 3: How early does it manifest and puberty.

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Speaker 2: I.

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Speaker 4: Would say before puberty. And the reason for that is that,

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Speaker 4: you know, the wish to have power predates sexual interest.

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Speaker 4: So it could be that he was staring and sort

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Speaker 4: of taking in a lot of information about his playmates

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Speaker 4: before he was aware of himself as a sexual being.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, how are we spot that on the playground.

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Speaker 4: Well, here's the interesting thing. There was one interesting study

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Speaker 4: that came out a number of years ago. The average

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Speaker 4: age of a sex predator at that time, they said,

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Speaker 4: was thirteen years old, the most common age. Sorry, because

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Speaker 4: that's when hormones began to kick in, that was the

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Speaker 4: beginning of puberty. But there was no way to measure

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Speaker 4: it because they're just little kids at that point. So

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Speaker 4: they're not like looking at pornography, they're not breaking into

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Speaker 4: people's houses. They're just on the playground. So you know,

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Speaker 4: this is why these discussions are important, because a thirteen

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Speaker 4: year old can be at the beginning of an offending pattern,

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Speaker 4: and prior to the sexual aspect of the predating pattern,

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Speaker 4: the power aspect begins. So you have like six seven

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Speaker 4: eight year olds who want to, you know, hit other

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Speaker 4: kids over the head and have all the power. I mean.

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Speaker 4: There's an article in the New York Times about four

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Speaker 4: or five years ago called can a nine year old

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Speaker 4: Be a Sociopath? And they were looking at a study

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Speaker 4: where nine year olds were exhibiting sociopathic behavior. So being

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Speaker 4: the sociopath becomes first. Sexuality being a major instrument of

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Speaker 4: the sociopathy or symptom of it comes second.

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Speaker 3: Time.

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: So how fast forward to now what I don't understand

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Speaker 2: how murdering these three young women and boyfriend ethan shape

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Speaker 2: and happened to be there?

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Speaker 3: How did that?

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Speaker 2: How does that fit in as a sexual component to

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Speaker 2: giving Brian Coberger any sort of sex gratification.

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Speaker 4: Well, so remember the predating pattern with those four did

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Speaker 4: not start the night as a murder. It started months

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Speaker 4: in advance, where he started hitting them up online, looking

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Speaker 4: at pictures, developing fantasies about them. So his first trophy,

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Speaker 4: I would say, would probably be pictures that he downloaded

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Speaker 4: onto his computer. Probably those pictures became a part of

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Speaker 4: a fantasy life, and then he graduated towards the night

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Speaker 4: of the murder. So you know, first you you hit

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Speaker 4: the other person up, you DM them. Then he downloads

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Speaker 4: the pictures. Then he masturbates a lot looking at the pictures.

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Speaker 4: Then that's not enough that he has to like drive

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Speaker 4: to the house and look through the windows. Then that's

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Speaker 4: not enough. Pretty soon he's working himself up into a

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Speaker 4: sadistic fantasy. And this is where we graduate from being

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Speaker 4: a peeping tom to a sexually sadistic murderer. So that

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Speaker 4: that's the progression because they're a lot of peeping toms

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Speaker 4: who don't go on to brutally murder people. So in

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Speaker 4: order to understand how one led to the other, the

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Speaker 4: peeping tom led to brutally stabbing them multiple times, we

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Speaker 4: have to understand how the mind of the sociopath works.

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Speaker 4: And I've said this too many times, but I'll break

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Speaker 4: it down with the audience in a very simple way.

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Speaker 4: Sociopaths are very empty people. They don't have pleasure from

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Speaker 4: normal things like you and I do, like maybe watching

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Speaker 4: their child hit a home run or a balloon, the

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Speaker 4: balloons being released into the sky after graduation. They have

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Speaker 4: no pleasure. They're dead inside and so because of that,

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Speaker 4: they cannot experience sexual gratification in normal ways. So they

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Speaker 4: use sadism to enhance their sexual arousal. It puts them

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Speaker 4: into sexual overdrive, a sexual frenzy that they experience as

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Speaker 4: normal sexuality. So first for Coburger, it's looking through windows.

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Speaker 4: Then it's masturbating a lot to the pictures. Then then

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Speaker 4: it's probably being angry but he can't get them to

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Speaker 4: respond to him. Then it's looking through the windows and

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Speaker 4: seeing that they're having a good time and he's not invited.

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Speaker 4: Then it's then it's fantasies of maybe strangulation or rape.

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Speaker 4: And then then by the time he murders them, you know,

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Speaker 4: the heightened sexual frenzy is very satisfying to him. So

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Speaker 4: sadism like plunging a knife into them, and sexual arousal

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Speaker 4: and ejaculation all get fused together.

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Speaker 2: Now we'll be saying, okay, because I'm trying to take

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Speaker 2: it all in. So first it starts with the trophy photos,

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Speaker 2: the Hey downwads, we think. Second, he starts to try

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Speaker 2: to community. He starts a fantasy life. Then he starts

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Speaker 2: trying to communicate with them. Then he begins to drive

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Speaker 2: this is your theory. Then he begins to drive to

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Speaker 2: their home to look in their windows when they're not

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Speaker 2: communicating back to him, I mean, and we don't know

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Speaker 2: if they even ever got the emails because it was

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Speaker 2: under a with a social platform where you know, like

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Speaker 2: on Facebook, which many people understand. You accept someone that

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Speaker 2: tries to friend you, and if you don't, then they're

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Speaker 2: not privy to all your communications. So trophy photos download,

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Speaker 2: he downloads, starts fantasy life, tries to communicate with them,

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Speaker 2: drives to their home, starts looking in the windows. I

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Speaker 2: added in a fifth one begins stalking, in other words,

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Speaker 2: finding where they work and where they go to school,

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Speaker 2: watching them five masturbating to the photos as part of

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Speaker 2: his fantasy life. Six Anger, he's watching them living life,

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Speaker 2: befriending other people, going to parties, having dates with other guys, and.

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Speaker 3: Not responding to him. The anger. That's where you lost me.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So what happens at that point is that he

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Speaker 4: cannot experience sexual arousal in the normal ways anymore. Just

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Speaker 4: masturbating to their photos or masturbating while looking through their

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Speaker 4: windows is no longer enough to feel sexually satisfied. He

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Speaker 4: has to graduate to aadhism. That is the important link

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Speaker 4: that he cannot maybe perhaps he can't even ejaculate anymore

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Speaker 4: without the thought of hurting someone.

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Speaker 2: Is it because it's the anger that they are not

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Speaker 2: responding to him?

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Speaker 4: No, anger is sort of like sort of I think

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Speaker 4: the I think towards the end it's sadism. Knowing that

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Speaker 4: he's hurting them enhances the sexual arousal.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I don't know or anger in this

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Speaker 2: case that one of them was moving away. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if I realize that, but they're not responding to him.

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Speaker 2: And I've seen so many cases, doctor bethany where the perpetrator,

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Speaker 2: typically a male, the anger is fused and ignites when

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Speaker 2: the woman won't go out with them, won't respond to them,

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Speaker 2: what rejects them. Now, it's my belief, as a complete

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Speaker 2: non professional in mental health care.

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Speaker 3: That that is an excuse that they're full of anger.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, and when the woman says no, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to go out, or I don't want to dance, or

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Speaker 2: not I don't want to drink, I think that that's

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Speaker 2: an excuse to attack. Because with a regular person, if

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Speaker 2: somebody says no, then you go like okay, thanks anyway.

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Speaker 4: Next, well, I think we want to attribute normal human

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Speaker 4: psychology to these people, like, oh, you know, a lot

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Speaker 4: of domestic aside is when the woman's about to leave

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Speaker 4: or divorce demand and so oh, it must follow that pattern.

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Speaker 4: But to speak to your line of thinking, which I

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Speaker 4: think is more accurate, the victim is about to move away,

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Speaker 4: so they have to escalate the offending pattern. To think

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Speaker 4: about a cat with a mouse, and it's so simple

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Speaker 4: that the mouse runs away, the cat delightedly runs after,

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Speaker 4: pounces and brings the mouse back and there's ultimate predatory

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Speaker 4: control and delight in bringing the mouse back. Maybe the

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Speaker 4: cat presents the half dead mouse to the owner with delight.

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Speaker 4: And in this case, you know, if you have put

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Speaker 4: so much time and energy into planning a crime and

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Speaker 4: now you're victims moving out of the state, you know

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Speaker 4: you better escalate it now. Remember what some of his

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Speaker 4: classmates said that before the crime, he this was in

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Speaker 4: graduate school. He would show up exhausted every day. He

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Speaker 4: would always walk into class with a cup of coffee

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Speaker 4: like he hadn't had enough sleep. That tells me he

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Speaker 4: was up all night planning this, thinking about it. And

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Speaker 4: so when the victims are about to move away, he's

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Speaker 4: loving control. So you know, if they were all going

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Speaker 4: to stay there, maybe the crime would have been three

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Speaker 4: months later or six months later. After the crime, he

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Speaker 4: remember he Procter tests. He started handing out one hundreds

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Speaker 4: a pluses to everyone. So we can also think of

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Speaker 4: this as a compulsion that was it was occupying more

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Speaker 4: and more and more energy until he did it, and

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Speaker 4: then afterwards he was very satisfied. And you know it's

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Speaker 4: like drinks all around, right, giving everyone champagne, you know,

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Speaker 4: giving one everyone, you know one hundred marks on their tests.

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Speaker 4: I think that's I think that's one more of evidence.

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Speaker 4: It won't come into court, of course, but it's interesting

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Speaker 4: for what we're talking about this morning.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with me. It's a grace.

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Speaker 2: So Doctor Bethany is still unclear in my mind how

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Speaker 2: you go from writing someone, emailing them, contacting them on

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Speaker 2: social to killing them. But I hear the fantasy life

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00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 2: was no longer satisfying him and he had to go

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Speaker 2: another step in your scenario. So I've got two incidents.

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Speaker 2: I want to find out what you think about them.

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Speaker 2: One where he is accused of breaking into a female

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Speaker 2: colleagues home, rearranging, moving or taking something.

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Speaker 3: We don't know what.

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Speaker 2: It could have been a vase, it could have been

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Speaker 2: a frying pan, I don't know what. It could have

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00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,400
Speaker 2: been her clothing. She gets very upset that somebody has

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Speaker 2: clearly been in her home, tells him about it, as

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Speaker 2: he knew she would, and he offers to set up

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Speaker 2: her Wi Fi security cams, getting all of her passwords.

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Speaker 2: That and another incident not yet connected to him, but

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Speaker 2: quite coincidental, where a neighbor has underwear taken out of

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Speaker 2: a suitcase in her car and stuffed in her car door.

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Speaker 3: Let's deal with the colleague first. What do you make

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Speaker 3: of that?

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Speaker 4: You know, when I first read of this, Nancy, I

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Speaker 4: thought about a creepy story that happened in my Beverly

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Speaker 4: Hills office years ago, where a guy came in and

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Speaker 4: told me that he had this compulsion. He was married.

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Speaker 4: He jumped out of bed in the middle of the night,

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Speaker 4: rushed towards the bed like he was an attacker. His

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Speaker 4: wife woke up screaming, and then he excitedly comforted her

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Speaker 4: as if someone else had broken into the house, not him.

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Speaker 4: And I've always puzzled over that story. It was so

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Speaker 4: strange to me, and the guy didn't stay in therapy long.

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Speaker 4: But to me, that speaks of inhabbiting every character in

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Speaker 4: the play. I mean, so we think of Brian Kloberger.

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Speaker 4: He's the one who saves and rescues right he goes in,

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Speaker 4: He installves the surveillance system. He's the one who predates,

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Speaker 4: who spies. He's looking at her in a sexual way

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Speaker 4: while she's unsuspecting. He's the one that kind of stirs

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Speaker 4: her up by moving things around the house and gets

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Speaker 4: her to be all worried. And he sort of becomes

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Speaker 4: everyone to her. It's like he swallows her up in

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Speaker 4: fantasy to where she has nothing going on but thinking

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Speaker 4: about him. Course, she doesn't know it's him, but in

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Speaker 4: his mind he thinks it's him, and it's That's one

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Speaker 4: way to think of it. The other is, again the

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Speaker 4: prolific sexual energy that goes into these kinds of crimes.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if you know the fancy, but one

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Speaker 4: of the features or the symptoms of sex addicts is

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Speaker 4: that they present as if they have attention deficit disorder.

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Speaker 4: So they come to therapy and you're like, well, why

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Speaker 4: can't you concentrate or focus, and they're distracted, And then

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Speaker 4: you realize this because they're thinking about sex all the time.

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Speaker 4: So apply that to a sexual predator, not just a

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Speaker 4: sex addict. He's thinking about sex twenty four seven. Remember

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Speaker 4: that's the organizing principle we talked about at the beginning

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Speaker 4: of our conversation. So if you think of that organizing principle,

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00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 4: he's already picked her as a possible sexual fantasy object, right,

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Speaker 4: So he's moving things around her house. He's probably in

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Speaker 4: a state of sexual excitement when she approaches him about

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Speaker 4: being worried about this, that the power is sexually exciting,

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Speaker 4: and then when he installs the surveillance system, it's like

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Speaker 4: he has you know, it's like, I guess, like the

365
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Speaker 4: every man's pornography. Not that every man watches pornography, that

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Speaker 4: wasn't the point, but it's like a form of pornography

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Speaker 4: for him that he has her available now whenever he

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Speaker 4: needs and wants masturbatory material.

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Speaker 2: Also, it is a precursor to breaking into the King

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Speaker 2: Rode home, so we have him honing his skills and

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Speaker 2: I'm sure plotting it out very meticulously breaking into the

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Speaker 2: colleague so when she's not there, and the excitement he

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Speaker 2: must have felt figuring out her schedule and finding out

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Speaker 2: where she would be so.

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Speaker 3: It could go break in.

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Speaker 2: To move the items around, I'm very curious to find

377
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Speaker 2: out what items he chose to move. Did he take

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Speaker 2: all of her underwear out of her underwear drawer and

379
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 2: put it somewhere else? Did he move the clothes around

380
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Speaker 2: that she had hanging in the laundry area by the

381
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Speaker 2: washer dryer.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what he did.

383
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Speaker 2: Did he actually take something? I'm just thinking it reminds me.

384
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Speaker 2: Do you remember the Julie Robers movie Sleeping with the Enemy.

385
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: Do you remember her husband? She came home one day

386
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: and opened up the cabinet and all the cans were

387
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: arranged perfectly, and like her socks were.

388
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Speaker 3: There were several things.

389
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Speaker 2: In the home that had been rearranged, not necessarily taken,

390
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: And I find that very very interesting. Now again, it's

391
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Speaker 2: not I could never go in depth with all this

392
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Speaker 2: with a jury like I am with you right now,

393
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Speaker 2: because it would be deemed irrelevant, objectionable, and possibly, you know,

394
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Speaker 2: an error on a pill. But I'm curious about it.

395
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Speaker 3: What did he take? What did he move? How did

396
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 3: he get in there?

397
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 2: Did he get in there the same mo that he

398
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: used at King Road? Is there a connection there? Am

399
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 2: I beginning a similar transaction pattern regarding the burglary? So

400
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: forth and so on? And whatever he moved or took

401
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 2: in her colleagues a place? Did he take something similar

402
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 2: out of King Road that we don't even know about.

403
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 3: I would be.

404
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: Tempted to bring this in as a similar transaction, but

405
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to risk a conviction losing it on appeal.

406
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 3: What were you going to say?

407
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 4: Well, these were all great questions, because we could look

408
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,479
Speaker 4: at it a few different ways. One would be it's

409
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 4: a form of practicing, right, so we all practice, whether

410
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 4: we practicing piano or when you're in high school, you

411
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 4: practice being in a relationship, and you graduate into levels

412
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 4: of maturity, right in terms of knowing.

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Speaker 3: How it actually made me smile.

414
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Speaker 2: Just then, doctor Bethany, you said practice in high school,

415
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 2: out of sixteen girls, one girl got cut from the

416
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: basketball team because they only had fifteen uniforms. It was me,

417
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 2: hence my career in cherelating, and I was constantly turning

418
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 2: cartwheels in the backyard and round dolphs and jumps and flips.

419
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Speaker 3: I mean, just all the time. Thing about pride is

420
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 3: still perfect.

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00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 4: Go ahead, well, think about what you just said. Constantly

422
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 4: turning cartwheels and clips. You wanted to be on that team.

423
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 4: You wanted it so bad, and you put the time

424
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Speaker 4: and energy into it. Brian Coberger wants this so badly,

425
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 4: but in a more perverse way. Now here's where I

426
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 4: think we could really begin to dissect it if we

427
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 4: knew more about him. What did he do with the underwear?

428
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 4: Remember VTK killer wore the underwear and photographed himself.

429
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: Now in that out of my mind too, you brought

430
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: it back up.

431
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 3: Thanks doctor Bath and and go ahead, right.

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Speaker 4: Do you remember those freaky pictures where he had my

433
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 4: heels and stuff, and you know he has statishized bondage gear.

434
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 4: And there was something about putting on woman's clothing that

435
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 4: was sexually exciting for him. And this is something that

436
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 4: we see sometimes those people who have perverse perversions or

437
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 4: paraphilias is another word for them, is that putting on

438
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 4: woman's clothing is a part of their I'm sorry to

439
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 4: keep using this word, but their masturbatory fantasies is a

440
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 4: part of their sex life. This is different from I'm

441
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 4: not trying to say like like cross dressing or putting

442
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 4: on clothing from the opposite sex, or trying to inhabit

443
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 4: being another sex that That's not what I'm talking about.

444
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 4: I'm talking about something very different. I'm talking about a perversion.

445
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 4: And what did he do with the underwear? He smell it,

446
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 4: did he put it on? Did he photograph himself in it?

447
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 4: Did he take it and take it home as a part,

448
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 4: you know, of a of a trophy? Was he grooming

449
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 4: her to be the person that he was going to kill?

450
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 4: And then he aborted? And then he went to the

451
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 4: student housing instead, So I think what he really did

452
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 4: with the items is important as well.

453
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 2: What if he just moved them or he could have

454
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 2: performed some act with them at the home before he left.

455
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: But I'm just thinking about the meticulous planning it would

456
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: have required him staking out her apartment, knowing her schedule,

457
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: breaking in, like planning how is he going to break in?

458
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: Maybe did he have a toolkit? Could he just break

459
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: in with a driver's license or a credit card? You know,

460
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: how he slide it down the between the door and

461
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 2: the door jam, asking her questions like wow, what kind

462
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: of security do you have, trying to find out would

463
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: the coast be clear for him to break in? The

464
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 2: thrill he got when he went into her apartment and

465
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 2: got in there for the first time alone, probably looking

466
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,239
Speaker 2: through her clothing, through her medicine cabinet, through all her

467
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: lotions and potions. Can you just imagine that, doctor Bethany,

468
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 2: and how that played into what.

469
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 4: Well. I didn't mean to interrupt that. You're absolutely correct,

470
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 4: because the next thing that could have been on his

471
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 4: mind was can I plunge a knife into her? But

472
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 4: that's how he killed before spoon.

473
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: Hey, doctor Bethany, when you go on vacations unless you're

474
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: going on one of your Christian mission trips, where you're

475
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: probably staying in a hut somewhere. I know I've been

476
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: on many a fellowship Hall Flora mission trips.

477
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 3: But when you go to a fancy hotel and you'll.

478
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 2: Walk in and you go wow, I wonder if that's

479
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: the feeling he had when he walked into her.

480
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 4: Place, Nancy's a thrill must have been extraordinary. Remember, we

481
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 4: have the term thrill kill right where you just killed

482
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 4: because it is thrilling to you. He's not just thinking

483
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 4: about sex when he's there. He's thinking about how can

484
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 4: he scare her? Can he see a scared look on

485
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 4: her face when he says, oh, wow, your underwear was

486
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 4: moved around? While that's kind of creepy because you know

487
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 4: men who strangulate women often they do that because they

488
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 4: want to see the scared look in the woman's eyes.

489
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 4: So there's something about that that's sexually exciting to them.

490
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 2: That question, have you ever noticed a lot of male

491
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: on female strangulations occur with the woman's stockings or her leotards,

492
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: or her underwear or her bra or some other lingerie item.

493
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means, but I know it

494
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: must be significant because it happens so often.

495
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 4: Well that that's a really really interesting point. I mean,

496
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 4: on the one hand, it might be what's most readily available,

497
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 4: but men still strangle with stockings and women don't even

498
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 4: wear stalking that much anymore. So maybe what leads up

499
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 4: to the crime is actually going through their underwear chores

500
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 4: and finding things. But it's also using their femininity against themselves.

501
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 4: It's loving their femininity by being misogynistic and hateful and

502
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 4: using their feminine instruments of femininity against them in a

503
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 4: hobicidal way, which we see on milder levels with misogyny, right,

504
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 4: you know, punishing the woman for being a female.

505
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 3: Doctor.

506
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: Bethany, just your knowledge regarding this is vast, and I'm

507
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 2: just wondering that we have so many blanks to feel

508
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 2: when it comes to Brian Coberger, and much of what

509
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 2: we're discussing will never come before a jury. It's not

510
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: primitive of who committed the murders, but I still want

511
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 2: to know. I would like to know when did he

512
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 2: first present as a child of having some sort of

513
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 2: a difference, something different about him, and what would that

514
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 2: symptom have been what was his first peeping tom, how

515
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 2: did he manifest in puberty in high school? Why did

516
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: he go all the way across the country to WSU.

517
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 2: I mean, when did he first begin stalking these victims

518
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 2: spying on them? And how many other victims are there

519
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 2: out there? We didn't even get to touch on the

520
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 2: highly coincidental case of another female neighbor in the King

521
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 2: Road area having her items taken from her car, which

522
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 2: that doesn't necessarily connect to Coburger. But someone went into

523
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: a suitcase, got out her underwear, did god only knows

524
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 2: what it with it, and then put it in the

525
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 2: door of her car. Now that's sounding like Coburger now.

526
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 2: And you know, doctor Bethany, when you do this for

527
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: so long, you have a sixth sense about what's connected

528
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 2: to someone and what is not. I found the Smithers murderer.

529
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 3: While I was.

530
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,959
Speaker 2: Interested in the fact that the Coburger parents were called

531
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: to testify, I did not see that as connected to

532
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 2: Coburger for many different reasons. I thought the grand jury

533
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 2: was bringing them in to basically rule Coburger out as

534
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 2: part of an investigation, and that did in fact turn

535
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 2: out to be true. But I still contend that moving

536
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 2: the colleagues items around her home and the attacks on

537
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 2: King Road.

538
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 3: Are not his first.

539
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 2: I don't know what they were, but there was at

540
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: least one, if not many, more preceding incidents, Doctor Bethany.

541
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us.

542
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: I've got so many other questions to ask you, but

543
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 2: I want more facts before I can formulate the correct questions.

544
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 3: Thank you, doctor Bethany Marshall