WEBVTT - Rock Paper Scissors: Decider of Things 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.600 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:16.439 and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry Jerome, 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:21.279 Roland st Jerome herself hanging out and this is Stuff 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:23.880 you should know. Just the three of us, we can 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.360 make it if we try. I think we should detail 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:32.559 what happened right before we rerecorded. It's very illustrative. Illustrative. Oh, 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:36.640 I like the way you say it, Frenchie, of this topic, 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:39.800 I think you should share for sure. Well, we were 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:43.680 debating on which episode to record first of our two. Uh, 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:46.360 this one is about rock paper scissors, And as a joke, 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:48.879 I said, why don't we use rock paper scissors to decide? 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:51.159 But we don't use videos, so we would just be 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.880 throwing rock paper scissors and going on each other's word. 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:56.680 And as soon as we did it, none of it 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.520 felt right to me. I shared what I what I shot, 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:03.840 and I was truthful, I know, and I stopped myself 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:06.720 because A I didn't throw anything, because I thought we 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:10.640 were kind of kidding, but it just and then you 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:12.760 said that you thought that people. Jerry said, are you 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:15.600 really doing this as an episode, and you said a 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:18.280 lot of people might think the same thing, but I 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:20.679 want to defend it out of the gate as part 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:22.520 of a two part series that I came up with 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:30.320 of seeming children's games where there's a lot more there 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.600 under the surface. Uh. And I'll go ahead and preview 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.400 and say the next one will be following. Uh followed 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:41.440 his Tug of War. Wait a minute, there's a third one, 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:44.080 isn't there? I thought you were requested yet another one. 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.680 I goofed up and when I sent Dave the idea, 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.320 I accidentally sent tic tac toe and he was like, 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:54.200 there's not much on this. After researching it for half 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:56.040 a day, I went, oh, dude, I mean to say 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:00.080 rock paper scissors. I'm so sorry. Okay, because you're is 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:02.200 a lot to rock paper scissors. I don't think there's 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.680 as much with tick tac toe. No, No, poor Dave. Okay, good, 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.240 got it? So okay, So Tug of War and rock 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.040 paper scissors. That's a winning combo if you ask me. Then. 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:19.000 Apologies to Dave Rouse uh for for the mid game shift. Yeah, 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.440 and many many thanks to Mighty Dave Rouse for helping 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:27.040 us out with these two mdr better than the rooster. 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:30.120 Remember how we were like, oh, yes, of course the rooster, 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:32.239 and we talked to him about He's like, yeah, that 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:34.400 they've been calling me that since like first grade, guys, 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.440 is not new. So we're moved on. Now, we're onto 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.400 mighty Dave. Ruse. That's like someone saying up Chuck and 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.640 then laughing as if it's original. To me, that is genius. 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:49.400 I've never called you that, of course not. Okay, So 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:51.880 today we're not talking about tug of war, Chuck. We're 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.280 talking about rock paper scissors, And I feel like we 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:58.160 should at least kind of explain because unless you've been 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.120 living under a rock or a sheet of paper or 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.360 a giant pair of scissors, everybody knows what rock paper 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:06.760 scissors is, right, Yeah? Should we do that and then 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:08.720 tell Dave's little story because I think it's pretty fun. 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.760 Uh well, it's a game, a children's game, namely, although 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:18.120 I would argue that if more adults decided some things 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:22.359 this way, it would be a better life for everyone, agreed, 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:28.320 because I think kids don't bring emotion into decision making 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.400 like adults do, or then they don't write fight like 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:34.120 adults do, so I think it can be a very 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:39.400 egalitarian way to settle and something fairly easy, totally and quickly, 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:43.640 very quickly. But yeah, it's a game where you, uh, 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:47.000 some people count one to three, some people say rock 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:51.119 paper scissors, and on that third beat, you each throw 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:54.680 out a hand indicating a fist for a rock, flath hand, 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:58.760 palm down for paper, or mimic com pair of scissors 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:04.080 with your index and Bernie finger what finger? Always call 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.040 it the Birnie finger. Oh yeah, that makes sense, the 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:12.080 Bernie finger. Oh, the Bernie Sanders finger. Because he's so 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.920 well known. Whenever he gets heckled on stage, he's just 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:16.920 throws a couple of birds high up in the air 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:21.520 and he says, read them and weep. That's pretty good, Bernie, 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.920 thank you. That was actually my Phil Hartman doing Sinatra. 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:29.479 I thought it was Larry David doing Bernie. No. No, 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.279 but it works. But that's the game, and you and 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:34.800 you generally do best of three, but that has to 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:38.120 be agreed upon beforehand. Okay, So that is and and 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.360 like this game is so basic and simple, but it's 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:44.520 also so widely played around the world that there's variations 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.760 to almost everything you just said. Like, I've seen plenty 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:49.839 of people who do it on the fourth count rock 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:54.200 paper scissor shoot. Um, They're like if you were playing 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:58.480 on a pro rock paper scissors m tournament, you would 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:00.640 not put your hand down palm on. You'd have it 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.160 palm out to the left or the right, depending on 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:05.600 what hand you're playing with. There's like all sorts of 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.680 little variations, but ultimately the point of it is is 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.240 that for each one of those possible choices, those three 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.360 choices you could possibly make, it has one it can 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.120 beat and one it can lose to, which makes it 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:22.080 incredibly thrilling. With just three little hand combinations, you can 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.120 either win lose and it happens in the blink of 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.640 a nine. It's a really great game. I'm with it totally. 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:32.120 It is, and it's um I think generally to just uh, 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:35.120 to settle a dispute. Not always, it doesn't. It never 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:36.480 struck me as a kind of game you would just 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:41.799 sit around and play, you know, Oh yeah, no, it's yeah, 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.560 I know, you're right, maybe if you're practicing, if you're 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.400 a weird kid practicing your rock paper scissors, But yeah no, 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:51.680 nobody's just sitting around playing that like they're playing cards 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:55.040 or something, right, And it's between two people, because if 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:56.680 you have more than two people, you'll probably go with 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.320 an any MENI money mo or an engine nine number nine. 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.680 I don't think I've ever seen three people playing rock 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.320 paper scissors before it once. I don't think you can. 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:10.200 That's the whole point. I don't know we should try it. 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.080 No wonder if the universe would crumble around us? Yeah, 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:14.960 but who would like? You have to be matched up 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.960 against a person otherwise? I mean, I guess if two 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.640 people did paper and one person did rock, you would 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:26.080 eliminate that person. I think, I don't know, Maybe you're 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.520 onto something I might be. I feel like I've just 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:33.560 kind of upped the evolution of the human species. I 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:37.000 think so too. So you mentioned a story Dave came 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.360 up with, and you're talking about settling disputes. You can 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.159 also use it to make decisions too, especially if your 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:47.120 name is Takashi hashi Yama, who was a Japanese electronic 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:52.000 firm uh C suite executive. I think maybe the CEO 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.920 of one of those companies and UM. He used to 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:59.080 like to use rock paper scissors to UM to basically 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:03.279 make important to say Asians when everything else was essentially equal, 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:05.720 and he ran into the same thing in two thousand five, 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.400 didn't he. Yeah, And I guess it worked out for 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.680 him if he was a C level executive, if that's 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.800 a measure of success to you. But he was an 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.480 art collector and he had a about a twenty million 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:21.480 dollar art collection of some very noteworthy artists and was 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:25.800 going to auction it off and said, should I choose 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.320 Christie's or Sotheby's. They're both great, and I don't know 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:32.400 what to do, So I'm going to make them play 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.360 each other in rock paper scissors for the account. Yeah, 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.520 because that's what Japanese electronics executives of twenty million dollar 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:43.840 art collections do. Yeah, they make other people play rock 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:48.560 paper scissors for their own amusement. So apparently Christie's recruited 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:52.560 a pair of eleven year old twins, Alice and Flora, 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.520 who were the twin daughters of the International Director of 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:59.080 Impressionist and Modern Art, for Christie's. And the reason that 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:00.840 they turned to these two eleven year old twins is 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:05.040 apparently they were rock paper scissors dynamos. They played all 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.920 the time, and they also like understood the psychology behind 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.239 it too, and it actually paid off in aces for 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:16.320 for Christie's turning to these two. Yeah, because Uh, in 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:18.680 the interview, I think the New York Times interviewed the 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:22.280 girls and Alice said, everyone knows you always start with 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:28.040 scissors because rock is way too obvious and scissors beats paper. Uh. 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:29.520 And I kind of laughed at that at first, like 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:32.280 that's such a thing a kid would say, But rock, 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:37.360 there may be something too. An adult being an aggressive 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:39.600 move with the rock, there may be something to that. 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.320 So that's actually what they did. They started with scissors. 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:45.680 On the day of the whole Um the whole Rock 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.160 Paper Scissors playoff to see who would host this auction 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:53.280 of this twenty million dollar art collection. UM, Christie's went 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.559 with scissors, and just like the twins predicted, UM, so 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.679 the Bees went with paper because apparently they thought rock 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.680 would be too obvious and they thought that rock that 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:06.640 Christie's would go with rock, so they went with paper. 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:10.320 But instead Christie's went with scissors. And that actually demonstrates 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.520 what you were saying earlier, that there's a lot more 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.960 to rock paper scissors than meets the eye, because like 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.520 it's these twins assertion that you would want to go 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.880 with scissors every time first, because the psychology of your 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.679 opponent can be kind of relied upon other people say 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:26.240 you would never want to go with scissors, and so 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:28.800 on and so forth. And there's actually like game theorists 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.640 that study this. Um, there's a whole lot to this 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.120 this topic. So I guess what I'm saying is is 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.120 a good idea of picking this one, because I don't 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:40.079 know if I ever would have. Well, what I did 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.080 think was interesting is in what it would have been 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.520 a funnier ending to this story is that he didn't 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.320 have them actually play the game with their hands. He 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:52.360 had them each right down the Japanese word for rock, 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.040 paper or scissors on a piece of paper, and I 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.439 thought it just would have been funny if they didn't 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:01.319 know that little hitch and like, you know, Christie's had 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.079 someone who spoke Japanese so that he's didn't so they 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:08.000 were like, you went by, Yeah, we forfeit, We don't know, 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.360 but yeah, it's um. I think there's something about the 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:15.120 simplicity of it that just in the future Tug of 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.200 War episode that just grabs me. Because when you start 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.760 talking game theory, and we'll get to that, it's uh, 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.280 I've wanted to do an episode on Game Theory Forever. 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.560 But it's just it breaks my brain a little bit 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:27.640 when you really get into it. I think it's made up. 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:30.720 So I think this might be a good way to 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:34.920 just satisfy that good, good, good thinking. These topics grab 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:41.000 you and say, let's play. Uh. As far as where 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:45.080 this came from, you know, of course, anything like this, 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:46.880 people are gonna say it came fro an ancient Egypt. 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.400 Because you can look at almost any mural or set 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:52.679 of hieroglyphics and say this is what I think they 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.280 were doing here. It's very vague. I think that one's 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.120 given me the bird, and I think that's kind of 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.839 what happened with the Benny Hassan on burial murals. Right. 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.000 I don't know. I think that the scholars typically agree 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.720 that they're they're doing something like what's called the finger 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.880 flashing game, that there's there's something like that. It's not 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.640 rock paper scissors, I don't. I don't believe scissors were 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.800 invented yet. Um, but that doesn't mean, as we'll see, 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.520 there's a lot of other games that aren't rock paper scissors. 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:24.439 They don't have to be rock paper or scissors. You 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.840 can kind of substitute just about anything for your hand gesture, 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.719 and it's possible they were playing that. I think what's 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.600 what keeps it from being definitive is that there's nothing 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:37.079 in like that that we've figured out from from transcribing 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.200 hieroglyphics using the resultist one that said, hey, you guys 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:44.040 of the future really missed out playing this finger flashing 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.720 game that we didn't bother to really uh put down. 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:50.600 But it's definitely the predecessor of of rock paper scissors. 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:52.800 There's nothing like that, so it's just kind of like 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:56.400 it's possible that goes back that far. Yeah, And I 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.480 couldn't you know. I looked like Dave did, to try 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.040 and find a picture of that specific and there were 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.000 a lot of pictures of this mural or set of murals, 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.959 but I saw a lot of wrestling, a lot of 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.840 wrestling going on, a lot of gaming gaming type stuff, 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:15.839 but I could not find this specific finger flashing game. Um. 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.559 There's also did you ever do the the even odd thing? 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:20.960 I never really understood that one. What is that one 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:23.560 when you throw you like go one to three and 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:28.680 you throw one, two or three fingers for what to 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.959 decide something? It's a finger flashing game. Okay, so it's 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:35.120 basically what we're talking. It's basically the Dollard's version of 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.679 Rock paper scissors. Well, I don't know. It may be 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:41.319 regional like they did it on Seinfeld. I remember, uh, 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:45.680 and it's like evens or odds. But I never, like 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.720 no one I knew ever did that. That's odd or 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.640 maybe old timing too, because I remember movies and the 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:54.800 like set in the fifties and sixties. I feel like 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.640 they did that song too. That's very weird because I mean, 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.800 by that time, from what I can tell, rock paper 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.200 Scissors had made its way to the United States from Asia. 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.080 It had been around for a while. So why would 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.320 you go from rock paper scissors just something as boring 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:14.640 as you know, one, two or three fingers? I don't know. 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:16.680 And I think the thing with that game is you 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:20.120 call even or odd beforehand, and then you put the 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:24.840 two hands together and whichever wins wins. That makes sense. 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:27.120 I'm probably explaining that poorly. I think that deserves its 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.160 own episode. Like you would say even, I would say odd, 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:34.240 we throw fingers. I throw two, you throw one, and 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.880 that's odd, so I win. Does that make sense? Oh? 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.280 If you add them together, it's odd. Yeah. Yeah, but 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.200 then if you added any odd to any even, wouldn't 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:48.360 it always be odd? Well? What if we both did ones, 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.559 that would be even? Oh yeah, but no, but if 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.120 I threw four and you through five, like that would 0:13:55.120 --> 0:14:00.640 be odd. I think it's only three fingers. Huh, that's 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.520 really that's really interesting. You don't remember that from Seinfeld. 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:07.160 That's when they were trying to decide on like a 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.240 lane moving into one of their apartments or selling an 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:13.520 apartment or something. Genuinely don't like. I feel like it's 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:18.959 issue an alternate reality here. But back to ancient Egypt, 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.560 we agree that it they either may or may not have. 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.640 But if you go to China u during the Ming dynasty, 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.760 they definitely played some sort of iteration of rock paper scissors. Yeah, 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:34.440 it was called shushi ling, and um, they they appears 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:36.720 in print like it's it's like what I was saying 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:41.280 that Egyptians didn't do. The seventeenth century Chinese and the 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:44.520 Ming dynasty did that. They wrote history books and he said, 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:46.920 we've been playing this game called shushi ling, a finger 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:52.080 flashing game, um, for at least a thousand, fourteen hundred years, 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:56.000 maybe maybe even longer than that. Um, And so that 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.360 is definitively like the what we kind of understand is 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.280 rock papers sissors finds its root, if not in ancient Egypt, 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.520 at the very least in ancient China. Right. And then 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.280 of course that made its way to Japan. And they 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:11.480 had a sort of a collection of hand throwing games 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:17.080 called sen suku me ken, which means can as fists 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:21.760 sun or sand as a sand. Yeah. San is three 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.600 or three ways and suku me is deadlock. And they 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:29.600 found a pretty fun translation of uh san sukumi kin 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.720 that is three are afraid of one another, which I 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.840 think is kind of beautiful in its simplicity. I love 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:40.400 it too, so that we we have like a delineation 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:42.640 where these things started in ancient China made the way 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:45.080 to Japan. Japan said, I really like these. Let's make 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.160 a bunch of different games, um. And one of them 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:52.080 was called mushi ken, which is pretty awesome, um. And 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.120 it demonstrates how it doesn't have to be rock paper 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:58.280 scissors or just one, two or three fingers instead, um 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:02.440 and uh, mushy can your thumb as a frog or 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.040 you could throw a pinky finger, or you could throw 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:08.600 your index finger the pinkies is poisonous centipede in China. 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:11.960 Uh and um it's a snake as your index finger. 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.000 And by the time it made its way to Japan, 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:19.600 Um the centipede had been translated um apparently incorrectly into 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.600 slug because Chinese and Japanese share the same characters, but 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.440 often they have completely different meanings. So in Japan it 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.840 was a slug instead of a centipede. Right, And in 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:35.480 that game, frog beats snake, snake beats centipede or slug 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:40.320 and centipede beats frog or slug beats frog. Does make 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:43.560 as much sense snake would beat frog, I would think. 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:48.080 I think snake would beat all of them unless that 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:50.520 centipedes sneaks up behind the snake, you know. Yeah, But 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:52.880 that's the thing. I mean, it doesn't work unless you've 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:54.680 got to You've got one you can beat and one 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.200 you can lose to. You know, that's right. Uh. And 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:04.159 then there was another version in h called Kitsunnyken, and 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:06.760 this was a two handed game, and I guess it's 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.359 just a little more complex. You did a supernatural fox, 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:13.240 a village leader or a hunter. Fox beats village leader, 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.160 leader beats hunter, hunter beats fox. That's as the old 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:20.960 saying goes. That's right, But we know that it didn't. 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:25.400 It didn't start anywhere besides China and then move its 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.919 way to Japan and then eventually make its way to America. 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:30.640 We know that we got it here in America from Japan, 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:36.080 um or possibly Chinese immigrants. Um. Because as late as 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.920 the nineteen twenties, nineteen thirties, even I believe um, if 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:45.000 you read Western literature, western reporting that mentioned this stuff, 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:49.359 you'll find that the author feels compelled to explain what's 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:51.760 going on and what the rules are with one of 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:56.800 these sansukumiken games that they're describing, which clearly demonstrates that 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.879 a Western audience wouldn't wouldn't You couldn't just say the 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.200 kids are playing rock paper scissors and leave it at that. 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:04.879 You would have to explain what they were doing and 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:10.400 explain the rules because the Americans hadn't come across this yet, right. Uh. 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.240 And then the late eighteen hundreds, Japan was literally playing 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.040 a game that looked exactly like rock paper scissors called 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:20.919 john Kin Pon Yes, which they still play. I I 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.800 quizzed you me about this, and Um, I was like 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.560 did you ever play any san Sukumi ken games? And 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.280 she's like no. I was like, what about kitts Sunni 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:32.879 can no, It's like what about Jan Campon? She's like 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:35.680 Jack Campo of course, of course, and just started playing 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:40.200 with me. They definitely play it still, that's nice. Who won? 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.560 She won? So she she she did it, and I 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.080 thought this was interesting to remember how you were saying, 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.399 like you you when you throw, you throw on the 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.399 third one, And I said, well, some people throw on 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.520 the ship like they go rock paper says or shoot 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.200 When she does it, she said that as a kid, 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.320 she and her friends would say ja Jack Campo and 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:01.199 then would throw it on the po. But there was 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:05.160 still four hits to the fist. You were hitting your 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:07.119 the palm of your hand with your closes fist that 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:10.160 you were going to throw the sign on um still 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.080 hitting it four times, even though there's five syllables in there. 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.119 I thought it was interesting. I've seen four more universally 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:21.560 than i've seen three. Yeah, I think I think we 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:23.320 did it on the third and I definitely hit the 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:26.440 other hand when I did it. I wouldn't just throw 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:30.600 it out in the Yeah, almost like there's a platform 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:35.879 or stage or something for its land stage. Should we 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:40.760 take a break our first break in the will we 0:19:40.800 --> 0:20:03.640 come back? We'll see okay, chuck so um, we're talking 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:07.680 about it finally ending up in UH in the United States, 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:13.119 and it seems like it probably came into the Pacific Northwest, UM, 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:18.639 possibly San Francisco, where there's long been a strong Chinese 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.880 and a strong Japanese immigrant community. And of course these 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:23.880 are two of the countries that have been playing these 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.800 finger flashing games for centuries um by the time they 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.520 started arriving in the United States. UM. And it also 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:35.960 ties in with a kind of a linguistic quizzical puzzle 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.600 about why some people call it rochambo. They think those 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.040 two things are tied today together the arrival of Rock 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.280 Paper Scissors and the beginning of when it was called rochambeau, 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:49.760 which is a kind of a regional word for that game. Yeah, 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:52.280 I had heard that word. I've never known anyone that 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:55.000 called it that. I thought, uh, And then until we 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:57.520 did this research and I saw that it was sort 0:20:57.520 --> 0:20:59.640 of you know, San Francisco is one of the pockets. 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:04.600 Since I texted o our pal Jesse Thorn bulls Eye 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:06.840 with Jesse Thorne and Judge John Hodgman in the Maximum 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.960 Network because he's the only native San Francisco. And I know, 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:12.959 and I'll just read it to you. I said, we're 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:15.560 doing an episode on Rock, Paper Scissors. Did you do 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:19.320 you call it rochambo? Yes? Are you passing this along 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:21.880 to your children? He lives in Los Angeles now, so 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:24.760 I know this paints him, but his children are technically Angelino's. 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:27.040 Are you passing this on to your children? Can I 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:29.720 reference all of this in the episode? Yes? And yes? 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:34.600 And then he went row shambo with exclamation points, So 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:38.520 I think he they did it like UMI does it? Uh? 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:41.080 And he says none of this one to three shoot nonsense? 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:45.640 So um, I think they call it rochambo in South Park. 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.879 That's where I've heard it predominantly, too. How interesting. That's Colorado, right, Yeah, 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:54.200 which is technically west to western state. I think it's 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:57.960 still inclus to be really regionalized in northern California. Yeah, 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:00.920 but I've heard it outside of that. I haven't. I've 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:03.320 spent you know, a few nights in San Francisco, but 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:05.159 not enough to pick up that the kids call it 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:08.720 rochambo there. So I'm almost positive I've I've only heard 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:10.680 it from like South Park or whatever. Sound like you're 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:13.479 writing a song there for a minute. Been a few 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.360 nights in San Francisco. So yeah, have you ever heard 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:20.800 that John Denver song? A Saturday night in Toledo, Ohio? Geese? 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:24.320 I don't think so. Oh man, it's hilariously mean. He 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:26.320 said you can go to the park and watch the 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:29.760 grass die. Like he just talks about all the just 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:33.440 boring stupid stuff you can do Untilia in November. It's 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:36.320 a it's no, no, don't don't defend Toledo. It's thank 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:38.640 you for the gesture. But it's true in a lot 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:41.040 of ways. But it's a really cute, funny song that's 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:43.679 worth going and listening to his catchy too, all right, 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.200 don't check it out. But anyway, like linguists still today, 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:50.000 or like why you stupid kids have were you calling 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:52.680 it ro chambou? And why didn't you explain to anybody 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:55.800