1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry Jerome, 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: Roland st Jerome herself hanging out and this is Stuff 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: you should know. Just the three of us, we can 6 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: make it if we try. I think we should detail 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: what happened right before we rerecorded. It's very illustrative. Illustrative. Oh, 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: I like the way you say it, Frenchie, of this topic, 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: I think you should share for sure. Well, we were 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: debating on which episode to record first of our two. Uh, 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: this one is about rock paper scissors, And as a joke, 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: I said, why don't we use rock paper scissors to decide? 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: But we don't use videos, so we would just be 14 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: throwing rock paper scissors and going on each other's word. 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: And as soon as we did it, none of it 16 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: felt right to me. I shared what I what I shot, 17 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: and I was truthful, I know, and I stopped myself 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: because A I didn't throw anything, because I thought we 19 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: were kind of kidding, but it just and then you 20 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: said that you thought that people. Jerry said, are you 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: really doing this as an episode, and you said a 22 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: lot of people might think the same thing, but I 23 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: want to defend it out of the gate as part 24 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: of a two part series that I came up with 25 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: of seeming children's games where there's a lot more there 26 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: under the surface. Uh. And I'll go ahead and preview 27 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: and say the next one will be following. Uh followed 28 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: his Tug of War. Wait a minute, there's a third one, 29 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: isn't there? I thought you were requested yet another one. 30 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: I goofed up and when I sent Dave the idea, 31 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: I accidentally sent tic tac toe and he was like, 32 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: there's not much on this. After researching it for half 33 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: a day, I went, oh, dude, I mean to say 34 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: rock paper scissors. I'm so sorry. Okay, because you're is 35 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: a lot to rock paper scissors. I don't think there's 36 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: as much with tick tac toe. No, No, poor Dave. Okay, good, 37 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: got it? So okay, So Tug of War and rock 38 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: paper scissors. That's a winning combo if you ask me. Then. 39 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: Apologies to Dave Rouse uh for for the mid game shift. Yeah, 40 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: and many many thanks to Mighty Dave Rouse for helping 41 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: us out with these two mdr better than the rooster. 42 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: Remember how we were like, oh, yes, of course the rooster, 43 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 1: and we talked to him about He's like, yeah, that 44 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: they've been calling me that since like first grade, guys, 45 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: is not new. So we're moved on. Now, we're onto 46 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: mighty Dave. Ruse. That's like someone saying up Chuck and 47 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: then laughing as if it's original. To me, that is genius. 48 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: I've never called you that, of course not. Okay, So 49 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: today we're not talking about tug of war, Chuck. We're 50 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: talking about rock paper scissors, And I feel like we 51 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: should at least kind of explain because unless you've been 52 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: living under a rock or a sheet of paper or 53 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: a giant pair of scissors, everybody knows what rock paper 54 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: scissors is, right, Yeah? Should we do that and then 55 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: tell Dave's little story because I think it's pretty fun. 56 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: Uh well, it's a game, a children's game, namely, although 57 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: I would argue that if more adults decided some things 58 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: this way, it would be a better life for everyone, agreed, 59 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: because I think kids don't bring emotion into decision making 60 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: like adults do, or then they don't write fight like 61 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: adults do, so I think it can be a very 62 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: egalitarian way to settle and something fairly easy, totally and quickly, 63 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: very quickly. But yeah, it's a game where you, uh, 64 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: some people count one to three, some people say rock 65 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: paper scissors, and on that third beat, you each throw 66 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: out a hand indicating a fist for a rock, flath hand, 67 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: palm down for paper, or mimic com pair of scissors 68 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: with your index and Bernie finger what finger? Always call 69 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: it the Birnie finger. Oh yeah, that makes sense, the 70 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: Bernie finger. Oh, the Bernie Sanders finger. Because he's so 71 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: well known. Whenever he gets heckled on stage, he's just 72 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: throws a couple of birds high up in the air 73 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: and he says, read them and weep. That's pretty good, Bernie, 74 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: thank you. That was actually my Phil Hartman doing Sinatra. 75 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: I thought it was Larry David doing Bernie. No. No, 76 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: but it works. But that's the game, and you and 77 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: you generally do best of three, but that has to 78 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: be agreed upon beforehand. Okay, So that is and and 79 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: like this game is so basic and simple, but it's 80 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: also so widely played around the world that there's variations 81 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: to almost everything you just said. Like, I've seen plenty 82 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: of people who do it on the fourth count rock 83 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: paper scissor shoot. Um, They're like if you were playing 84 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: on a pro rock paper scissors m tournament, you would 85 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: not put your hand down palm on. You'd have it 86 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: palm out to the left or the right, depending on 87 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: what hand you're playing with. There's like all sorts of 88 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: little variations, but ultimately the point of it is is 89 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: that for each one of those possible choices, those three 90 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: choices you could possibly make, it has one it can 91 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: beat and one it can lose to, which makes it 92 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: incredibly thrilling. With just three little hand combinations, you can 93 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: either win lose and it happens in the blink of 94 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: a nine. It's a really great game. I'm with it totally. 95 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: It is, and it's um I think generally to just uh, 96 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: to settle a dispute. Not always, it doesn't. It never 97 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: struck me as a kind of game you would just 98 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 1: sit around and play, you know, Oh yeah, no, it's yeah, 99 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: I know, you're right, maybe if you're practicing, if you're 100 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: a weird kid practicing your rock paper scissors, But yeah no, 101 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: nobody's just sitting around playing that like they're playing cards 102 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: or something, right, And it's between two people, because if 103 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: you have more than two people, you'll probably go with 104 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: an any MENI money mo or an engine nine number nine. 105 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever seen three people playing rock 106 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: paper scissors before it once. I don't think you can. 107 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: That's the whole point. I don't know we should try it. 108 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: No wonder if the universe would crumble around us? Yeah, 109 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: but who would like? You have to be matched up 110 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: against a person otherwise? I mean, I guess if two 111 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: people did paper and one person did rock, you would 112 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: eliminate that person. I think, I don't know, Maybe you're 113 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: onto something I might be. I feel like I've just 114 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: kind of upped the evolution of the human species. I 115 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: think so too. So you mentioned a story Dave came 116 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: up with, and you're talking about settling disputes. You can 117 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: also use it to make decisions too, especially if your 118 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: name is Takashi hashi Yama, who was a Japanese electronic 119 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: firm uh C suite executive. I think maybe the CEO 120 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: of one of those companies and UM. He used to 121 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: like to use rock paper scissors to UM to basically 122 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: make important to say Asians when everything else was essentially equal, 123 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: and he ran into the same thing in two thousand five, 124 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: didn't he. Yeah, And I guess it worked out for 125 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: him if he was a C level executive, if that's 126 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: a measure of success to you. But he was an 127 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: art collector and he had a about a twenty million 128 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: dollar art collection of some very noteworthy artists and was 129 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: going to auction it off and said, should I choose 130 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: Christie's or Sotheby's. They're both great, and I don't know 131 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: what to do, So I'm going to make them play 132 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: each other in rock paper scissors for the account. Yeah, 133 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: because that's what Japanese electronics executives of twenty million dollar 134 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: art collections do. Yeah, they make other people play rock 135 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: paper scissors for their own amusement. So apparently Christie's recruited 136 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: a pair of eleven year old twins, Alice and Flora, 137 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: who were the twin daughters of the International Director of 138 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: Impressionist and Modern Art, for Christie's. And the reason that 139 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: they turned to these two eleven year old twins is 140 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: apparently they were rock paper scissors dynamos. They played all 141 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: the time, and they also like understood the psychology behind 142 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,239 Speaker 1: it too, and it actually paid off in aces for 143 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: for Christie's turning to these two. Yeah, because Uh, in 144 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: the interview, I think the New York Times interviewed the 145 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: girls and Alice said, everyone knows you always start with 146 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: scissors because rock is way too obvious and scissors beats paper. Uh. 147 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: And I kind of laughed at that at first, like 148 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: that's such a thing a kid would say, But rock, 149 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: there may be something too. An adult being an aggressive 150 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: move with the rock, there may be something to that. 151 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: So that's actually what they did. They started with scissors. 152 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: On the day of the whole Um the whole Rock 153 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: Paper Scissors playoff to see who would host this auction 154 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: of this twenty million dollar art collection. UM, Christie's went 155 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: with scissors, and just like the twins predicted, UM, so 156 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: the Bees went with paper because apparently they thought rock 157 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: would be too obvious and they thought that rock that 158 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: Christie's would go with rock, so they went with paper. 159 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: But instead Christie's went with scissors. And that actually demonstrates 160 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: what you were saying earlier, that there's a lot more 161 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: to rock paper scissors than meets the eye, because like 162 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: it's these twins assertion that you would want to go 163 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: with scissors every time first, because the psychology of your 164 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: opponent can be kind of relied upon other people say 165 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: you would never want to go with scissors, and so 166 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: on and so forth. And there's actually like game theorists 167 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: that study this. Um, there's a whole lot to this 168 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: this topic. So I guess what I'm saying is is 169 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: a good idea of picking this one, because I don't 170 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: know if I ever would have. Well, what I did 171 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: think was interesting is in what it would have been 172 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: a funnier ending to this story is that he didn't 173 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: have them actually play the game with their hands. He 174 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: had them each right down the Japanese word for rock, 175 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: paper or scissors on a piece of paper, and I 176 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 1: thought it just would have been funny if they didn't 177 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: know that little hitch and like, you know, Christie's had 178 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: someone who spoke Japanese so that he's didn't so they 179 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: were like, you went by, Yeah, we forfeit, We don't know, 180 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: but yeah, it's um. I think there's something about the 181 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: simplicity of it that just in the future Tug of 182 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: War episode that just grabs me. Because when you start 183 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: talking game theory, and we'll get to that, it's uh, 184 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: I've wanted to do an episode on Game Theory Forever. 185 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: But it's just it breaks my brain a little bit 186 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: when you really get into it. I think it's made up. 187 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: So I think this might be a good way to 188 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: just satisfy that good, good, good thinking. These topics grab 189 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: you and say, let's play. Uh. As far as where 190 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: this came from, you know, of course, anything like this, 191 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: people are gonna say it came fro an ancient Egypt. 192 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: Because you can look at almost any mural or set 193 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: of hieroglyphics and say this is what I think they 194 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: were doing here. It's very vague. I think that one's 195 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: given me the bird, and I think that's kind of 196 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 1: what happened with the Benny Hassan on burial murals. Right. 197 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that the scholars typically agree 198 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: that they're they're doing something like what's called the finger 199 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: flashing game, that there's there's something like that. It's not 200 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: rock paper scissors, I don't. I don't believe scissors were 201 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: invented yet. Um, but that doesn't mean, as we'll see, 202 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: there's a lot of other games that aren't rock paper scissors. 203 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: They don't have to be rock paper or scissors. You 204 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: can kind of substitute just about anything for your hand gesture, 205 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 1: and it's possible they were playing that. I think what's 206 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: what keeps it from being definitive is that there's nothing 207 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 1: in like that that we've figured out from from transcribing 208 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: hieroglyphics using the resultist one that said, hey, you guys 209 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: of the future really missed out playing this finger flashing 210 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: game that we didn't bother to really uh put down. 211 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: But it's definitely the predecessor of of rock paper scissors. 212 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: There's nothing like that, so it's just kind of like 213 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: it's possible that goes back that far. Yeah, And I 214 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: couldn't you know. I looked like Dave did, to try 215 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: and find a picture of that specific and there were 216 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: a lot of pictures of this mural or set of murals, 217 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 1: but I saw a lot of wrestling, a lot of 218 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: wrestling going on, a lot of gaming gaming type stuff, 219 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 1: but I could not find this specific finger flashing game. Um. 220 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: There's also did you ever do the the even odd thing? 221 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: I never really understood that one. What is that one 222 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: when you throw you like go one to three and 223 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: you throw one, two or three fingers for what to 224 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 1: decide something? It's a finger flashing game. Okay, so it's 225 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: basically what we're talking. It's basically the Dollard's version of 226 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: Rock paper scissors. Well, I don't know. It may be 227 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: regional like they did it on Seinfeld. I remember, uh, 228 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: and it's like evens or odds. But I never, like 229 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: no one I knew ever did that. That's odd or 230 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: maybe old timing too, because I remember movies and the 231 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: like set in the fifties and sixties. I feel like 232 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: they did that song too. That's very weird because I mean, 233 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: by that time, from what I can tell, rock paper 234 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: Scissors had made its way to the United States from Asia. 235 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: It had been around for a while. So why would 236 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: you go from rock paper scissors just something as boring 237 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: as you know, one, two or three fingers? I don't know. 238 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: And I think the thing with that game is you 239 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: call even or odd beforehand, and then you put the 240 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: two hands together and whichever wins wins. That makes sense. 241 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: I'm probably explaining that poorly. I think that deserves its 242 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: own episode. Like you would say even, I would say odd, 243 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: we throw fingers. I throw two, you throw one, and 244 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: that's odd, so I win. Does that make sense? Oh? 245 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: If you add them together, it's odd. Yeah. Yeah, but 246 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: then if you added any odd to any even, wouldn't 247 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: it always be odd? Well? What if we both did ones, 248 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: that would be even? Oh yeah, but no, but if 249 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: I threw four and you through five, like that would 250 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: be odd. I think it's only three fingers. Huh, that's 251 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: really that's really interesting. You don't remember that from Seinfeld. 252 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: That's when they were trying to decide on like a 253 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: lane moving into one of their apartments or selling an 254 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: apartment or something. Genuinely don't like. I feel like it's 255 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: issue an alternate reality here. But back to ancient Egypt, 256 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: we agree that it they either may or may not have. 257 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: But if you go to China u during the Ming dynasty, 258 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: they definitely played some sort of iteration of rock paper scissors. Yeah, 259 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: it was called shushi ling, and um, they they appears 260 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: in print like it's it's like what I was saying 261 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: that Egyptians didn't do. The seventeenth century Chinese and the 262 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: Ming dynasty did that. They wrote history books and he said, 263 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: we've been playing this game called shushi ling, a finger 264 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: flashing game, um, for at least a thousand, fourteen hundred years, 265 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: maybe maybe even longer than that. Um, And so that 266 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: is definitively like the what we kind of understand is 267 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: rock papers sissors finds its root, if not in ancient Egypt, 268 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: at the very least in ancient China. Right. And then 269 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: of course that made its way to Japan. And they 270 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: had a sort of a collection of hand throwing games 271 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: called sen suku me ken, which means can as fists 272 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: sun or sand as a sand. Yeah. San is three 273 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: or three ways and suku me is deadlock. And they 274 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: found a pretty fun translation of uh san sukumi kin 275 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: that is three are afraid of one another, which I 276 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: think is kind of beautiful in its simplicity. I love 277 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: it too, so that we we have like a delineation 278 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: where these things started in ancient China made the way 279 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: to Japan. Japan said, I really like these. Let's make 280 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: a bunch of different games, um. And one of them 281 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: was called mushi ken, which is pretty awesome, um. And 282 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: it demonstrates how it doesn't have to be rock paper 283 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: scissors or just one, two or three fingers instead, um 284 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: and uh, mushy can your thumb as a frog or 285 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: you could throw a pinky finger, or you could throw 286 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: your index finger the pinkies is poisonous centipede in China. 287 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: Uh and um it's a snake as your index finger. 288 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: And by the time it made its way to Japan, 289 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: Um the centipede had been translated um apparently incorrectly into 290 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: slug because Chinese and Japanese share the same characters, but 291 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: often they have completely different meanings. So in Japan it 292 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: was a slug instead of a centipede. Right, And in 293 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: that game, frog beats snake, snake beats centipede or slug 294 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: and centipede beats frog or slug beats frog. Does make 295 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: as much sense snake would beat frog, I would think. 296 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: I think snake would beat all of them unless that 297 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: centipedes sneaks up behind the snake, you know. Yeah, But 298 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: that's the thing. I mean, it doesn't work unless you've 299 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: got to You've got one you can beat and one 300 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: you can lose to. You know, that's right. Uh. And 301 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: then there was another version in h called Kitsunnyken, and 302 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: this was a two handed game, and I guess it's 303 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: just a little more complex. You did a supernatural fox, 304 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: a village leader or a hunter. Fox beats village leader, 305 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 1: leader beats hunter, hunter beats fox. That's as the old 306 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: saying goes. That's right, But we know that it didn't. 307 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: It didn't start anywhere besides China and then move its 308 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: way to Japan and then eventually make its way to America. 309 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 1: We know that we got it here in America from Japan, 310 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: um or possibly Chinese immigrants. Um. Because as late as 311 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, nineteen thirties, even I believe um, if 312 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: you read Western literature, western reporting that mentioned this stuff, 313 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: you'll find that the author feels compelled to explain what's 314 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: going on and what the rules are with one of 315 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: these sansukumiken games that they're describing, which clearly demonstrates that 316 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: a Western audience wouldn't wouldn't You couldn't just say the 317 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: kids are playing rock paper scissors and leave it at that. 318 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: You would have to explain what they were doing and 319 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: explain the rules because the Americans hadn't come across this yet, right. Uh. 320 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: And then the late eighteen hundreds, Japan was literally playing 321 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: a game that looked exactly like rock paper scissors called 322 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: john Kin Pon Yes, which they still play. I I 323 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: quizzed you me about this, and Um, I was like 324 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: did you ever play any san Sukumi ken games? And 325 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: she's like no. I was like, what about kitts Sunni 326 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: can no, It's like what about Jan Campon? She's like 327 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: Jack Campo of course, of course, and just started playing 328 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: with me. They definitely play it still, that's nice. Who won? 329 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: She won? So she she she did it, and I 330 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: thought this was interesting to remember how you were saying, 331 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: like you you when you throw, you throw on the 332 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: third one, And I said, well, some people throw on 333 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: the ship like they go rock paper says or shoot 334 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: When she does it, she said that as a kid, 335 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: she and her friends would say ja Jack Campo and 336 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 1: then would throw it on the po. But there was 337 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: still four hits to the fist. You were hitting your 338 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: the palm of your hand with your closes fist that 339 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: you were going to throw the sign on um still 340 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: hitting it four times, even though there's five syllables in there. 341 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting. I've seen four more universally 342 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: than i've seen three. Yeah, I think I think we 343 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: did it on the third and I definitely hit the 344 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: other hand when I did it. I wouldn't just throw 345 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: it out in the Yeah, almost like there's a platform 346 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: or stage or something for its land stage. Should we 347 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: take a break our first break in the will we 348 00:19:40,800 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: come back? We'll see okay, chuck so um, we're talking 349 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: about it finally ending up in UH in the United States, 350 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: and it seems like it probably came into the Pacific Northwest, UM, 351 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: possibly San Francisco, where there's long been a strong Chinese 352 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 1: and a strong Japanese immigrant community. And of course these 353 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 1: are two of the countries that have been playing these 354 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: finger flashing games for centuries um by the time they 355 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: started arriving in the United States. UM. And it also 356 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: ties in with a kind of a linguistic quizzical puzzle 357 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: about why some people call it rochambo. They think those 358 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: two things are tied today together the arrival of Rock 359 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: Paper Scissors and the beginning of when it was called rochambeau, 360 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: which is a kind of a regional word for that game. Yeah, 361 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: I had heard that word. I've never known anyone that 362 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: called it that. I thought, uh, And then until we 363 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: did this research and I saw that it was sort 364 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: of you know, San Francisco is one of the pockets. 365 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: Since I texted o our pal Jesse Thorn bulls Eye 366 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: with Jesse Thorne and Judge John Hodgman in the Maximum 367 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: Network because he's the only native San Francisco. And I know, 368 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,959 Speaker 1: and I'll just read it to you. I said, we're 369 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: doing an episode on Rock, Paper Scissors. Did you do 370 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: you call it rochambo? Yes? Are you passing this along 371 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: to your children? He lives in Los Angeles now, so 372 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: I know this paints him, but his children are technically Angelino's. 373 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: Are you passing this on to your children? Can I 374 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: reference all of this in the episode? Yes? And yes? 375 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: And then he went row shambo with exclamation points, So 376 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: I think he they did it like UMI does it? Uh? 377 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: And he says none of this one to three shoot nonsense? 378 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: So um, I think they call it rochambo in South Park. 379 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: That's where I've heard it predominantly, too. How interesting. That's Colorado, right, Yeah, 380 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: which is technically west to western state. I think it's 381 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: still inclus to be really regionalized in northern California. Yeah, 382 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: but I've heard it outside of that. I haven't. I've 383 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: spent you know, a few nights in San Francisco, but 384 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: not enough to pick up that the kids call it 385 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: rochambo there. So I'm almost positive I've I've only heard 386 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: it from like South Park or whatever. Sound like you're 387 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,479 Speaker 1: writing a song there for a minute. Been a few 388 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 1: nights in San Francisco. So yeah, have you ever heard 389 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: that John Denver song? A Saturday night in Toledo, Ohio? Geese? 390 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: I don't think so. Oh man, it's hilariously mean. He 391 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: said you can go to the park and watch the 392 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: grass die. Like he just talks about all the just 393 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: boring stupid stuff you can do Untilia in November. It's 394 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: a it's no, no, don't don't defend Toledo. It's thank 395 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: you for the gesture. But it's true in a lot 396 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: of ways. But it's a really cute, funny song that's 397 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: worth going and listening to his catchy too, all right, 398 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: don't check it out. But anyway, like linguists still today, 399 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: or like why you stupid kids have were you calling 400 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: it ro chambou? And why didn't you explain to anybody 401 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: why you were calling rochambo? Because it's a linguistic mystery 402 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: still to this day. Yeah, I mean some people say 403 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: it's from him, the real life person from history. How 404 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: do you pronounced that first name? Was it Compta? The 405 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: comp the count okay de Rochambeau, uh, the Frenchman who 406 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: who fought alongside the patriots in the Revolutionary War. And 407 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: interestingly that may hold a little bit of water because 408 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: there was a book, uh called the Handbook for Recreational Leaders, 409 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: where they literally spelled it as Roe Shambau and not 410 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: how he spells his name, and that book was published 411 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: in Oakland. Yeah. I don't know if what that means though, 412 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: just because it's published there didn't mean it was like 413 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: a regional book or maybe it was. Yeah, I mean 414 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: I could see the author living there. I'm not sure. 415 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I don't know, but but I think 416 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: it's a kind of kind of interesting that it is 417 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: that that recreational leaders book was published in Oakland at 418 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: about the right time. I think it was the book, 419 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: and it was about the time in the nine thirties 420 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: when they think that school kids started picking this up 421 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: in San Francisco. That makes sense. And you know what 422 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: now that I look at the title of the book, 423 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: Handbook of for Recreation Leaders, not recreational so it was 424 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: probably like a handbook for local wreck centers instead instead 425 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: of being like, are you a leader only recreationally? I 426 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: don't take it seriously weird, but they think it's it's 427 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: actually um, well, some people think it's from the original 428 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: Japanese name right, Yeah, either Jack Kip Poe, so you 429 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: apparently just barely pronounced the end in the on the 430 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: jan and the poem, so it's Jack and poe um. 431 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: And then in Chinese a jing jiang bo jing jun bo. 432 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: Either way, there's that that um hard bow or post 433 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: sound on the end of it. And they think maybe 434 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 1: American kids in San Francisco who were meeting these Chinese 435 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: and Japanese school kid immigrants were just kind of turned 436 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: it into something else that sounded vaguely familiar, which to me, 437 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: that's what my money's on. I think the Brits and 438 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: the Aussies call it paper scissors stone or paper scissors rock. 439 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: And then weirdly, if you live in Manchester, Uh, first 440 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: of all, you're a man Cunion, which is kind of weird. Secondly, 441 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: you don't clap except at the very end of the show. Yeah, 442 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: we performed live there. They were, uh, they enjoyed it, 443 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 1: but they were quiet about it. Uh. And then apparently 444 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: they called this either zip pop brick or ciss pop 445 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: rick just in Manchester. Yes, but they have all sorts 446 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: of cool made up words around that. Okay, so um, 447 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: the point is Rochambo, it's still. It's still and probably 448 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: will forever be a mystery exactly where it came from. 449 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: That's right. Should we talk about game theory? I don't 450 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: see how we can get around and Chuck, I really 451 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: tried to figure out a way, but I don't think 452 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: we can. Well, maybe you can embrace it is like, 453 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: this is the kind of game theory that like war 454 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: Games was about. Sure, yeah, yeah, you know what I 455 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: meant At its most basic level. Uh, we're talking in 456 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: this case about the Nash equilibrium or a Nash equilibrium, 457 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: and that's from John Nash of a Beautiful Mind fame 458 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: and sort of the simplest way to say it. They 459 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: found a pretty good definition, which is a set of strategies, 460 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: one for each player, such that no player has an 461 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,959 Speaker 1: incentive to change their strategy given what the other players 462 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: are doing. In other words, it's a game where you 463 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: reach an equilibrium because there's no strategy essentially that will 464 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: get a better outcome. Right, Well, yeah, we'll put and like, 465 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: equilibrium is a really important term because it's a kind 466 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: of a even though you're in an adversarial situation where 467 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 1: you're competing against somebody, it also has a sort of 468 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: like UM cooperative ness that naturally trickles up from that gameplay. 469 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: And there's not a pure Nash equilibrium in Rock paper 470 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: scissors UM. In the Prisoner's dilemma, which is a famous 471 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: game theory UM kind of thought experiment, there's a pure 472 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: Nash equilibrium where it's like this is this one choice 473 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: is the thing to do. It's not quite the case 474 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: in Rock paper scissors. Instead, what happens is is that 475 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: if you eventually choose UM too, if your strategy is 476 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: to choose doing each Rock paper scissors one third of 477 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: the time, you can plan on over the course of 478 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: hundreds of games to finally shake out to winning thirty 479 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: three percent of the games. And that is the best 480 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: you can hope for so long as everybody else is 481 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: is cooperating or acting rationally throughout the whole thing. But 482 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: that's a mix. That's called a mixed Nash equilibrium, and 483 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't really count UM. And there's a lot of 484 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: problems with applying or trying to apply in Nash equilibrium 485 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: to Rock papers scissors. Yeah, I mean humans play it 486 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: and when they play it, they do two out of 487 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: three usually or just one. So you're not doing it 488 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: hundreds of times to let this play out. And also, 489 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: humans are humans, so we have instincts, We have psychological 490 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: tendencies at play. We have biases, unconscious and conscious biases. 491 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: Even with a silly game like this, and that that 492 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: one thing like might be better even though one really isn't. 493 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: Like they all have an equal chance of equal uh 494 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: equally losing or winning. Right, So the Nash equilibrium, I mean, 495 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: it applies. It's not like it just you just can't 496 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: make sense of it. In the terms of rock paper scissors. 497 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: It's just as far as explaining a rock paper scissors 498 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: strategy goes, it's not your best strategy because the best 499 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: you could hope for is to win thirty three point 500 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: three three percent of the time as long as you 501 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: stuck to your guns and played that same that's one 502 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: to three every single time. Um. The there's another rategy 503 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: called a conditional response that they've studied. Um that's that 504 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: actually produces a winning um like an overall winning score, 505 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: ten more often than a Nash equilibrium. Well, yeah, so 506 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: this came from a study in China where they did 507 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: kind of the largest study on rock paper scissors ever done, 508 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: where they got three d and sixty students divided them up. 509 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: They each had to play I think three hundred rounds 510 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: apiece had he ended up operative a lot of rounds 511 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: of rock paper scissors in the pattern, they discovered the 512 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: conditional response was as humans, we instinctively, and it makes sense, 513 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: we instinctively stick to something that wins and we change 514 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: it when it loses. So if you lose on paper, 515 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,959 Speaker 1: you're probably not going to go throw a paper right 516 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: again afterward. And if you win with rock, you're probably 517 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: or you're instinctively going to want to at least throw 518 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: rock as the next one. And this played out in 519 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: the experiment. Yeah, and so with that they found that 520 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: the conditional response you can actually if you if you 521 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: use that strategy where if you if you win with 522 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: one thing, throw it again the next time. If you 523 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: lose with one, uh, go switch to the next one. 524 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: And apparently also people follow the pattern depending on how 525 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: you say the name of the game, Like if you 526 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: call the game rock paper scissors, if you switch in 527 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: a conditional strategy, um, you will if you lose with scissors, 528 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: if you lose with rock, you'll go to scissors. If 529 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: you lose with scissors, you'll go to paper. Like you'll 530 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: follow the pattern of the name of the game too, 531 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: which is pretty interesting. But I'll like that. But yeah, 532 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: how rock paper scissors. So you lose with rock, go 533 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: to paper. Oh yeah, you're right, but I think everyone 534 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: gets Okay, So you don't want me to just start 535 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: over and completely explain again, I think we need to that. 536 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: So but all that combined kind of really points out 537 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: how humans aren't rational actors and we don't pick things 538 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: at random, and we do kind of fall into patterns, um, 539 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: and that that can be kind of used to your 540 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: advantage if you're like really paying attention to this kind 541 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: of thing. Depending on who you're playing with, well, yeah, 542 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to follow that model and 543 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: give and technically give yourself a statistical advantage, you would 544 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: know what they want are lost with obviously, and then 545 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: what their instinct to follow would be, and then you 546 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: would combat that then with the appropriate gesture. But here's 547 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: the thing. It's a fast game. And part of the 548 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: reason this game works is because you don't sit there 549 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: and go all right, let's think about what we're gonna 550 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: do here and let's throw on five. Like you just 551 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: go quickly, so you've got to be really really fast too. 552 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: I think remember what they did, or see what they did, 553 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: remember what's next, and then combat it. And that's then 554 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: that second right, like to consider your opponent psychology and 555 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: that fast of a time span. Gifted is the word 556 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: I think you're looking for. I think so, uh or 557 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: maybe professional And should we take a break? Sure, let's 558 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: take a break, all right, because people do this, maybe 559 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: not for a living, but there are tournaments and we'll 560 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: talk about that right after this. All right, So I 561 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: spilled the beans. There are not professional rock paper scissors players, 562 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: but in the two thousands, especially the mid two thousand's, 563 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: there were tournaments sponsored by sponsors that had prize money 564 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: at hand. Yeah, and actually, um, I think the prize 565 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: money got up to like fifty grand when you're at 566 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: the peak of two thousand six or two. Yeah, it's 567 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: not bad for playing rock paper scissors. And um. One 568 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: thing that we should kind of preface this with when 569 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about the world of profession all um rock 570 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: paper scissors players, is that it is a really facetious 571 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: tongue in cheek self satirical world, and they make up 572 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that is just absolutely not true, 573 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: and it's really tough to figure out, like to to separate, 574 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, truth from fiction when you're talking about it. 575 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: And in fact, um one of the sources Dave sent 576 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: was a blog post of a linguist who was posting 577 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: about the UM the origin of like the rock, paper 578 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: Scissors world society I think UM and how they actually 579 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: were founded in nineteenth century London and all of this 580 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: was totally made up and didn't realize it until some 581 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: of the commenters on her blog post was like, hey, 582 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: this is this this world is not real, Like, they 583 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: make up a lot of stuff, and she had to 584 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: go back and revise the post. So if we accidentally 585 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: say something that is not true and we say credul credulous, 586 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: lee than than apologies ahead of time. Yeah, I mean 587 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: it's kind of fun. They make up a or uh 588 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: supposedly the first one was in a bar in Toronto 589 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: and uh Toronto, excuse me, in two thousand two. But 590 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: whether or not, that's lore. Like once the media starts 591 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 1: covering something and bud Light starts sponsoring it, then it 592 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: it is a real thing and that's exactly what happened. 593 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: And you know they would make up fun names. Uh 594 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: Sean Wicked fingers Sears was one of the players. Unless 595 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: that's completely made up, but it was all very tongue 596 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: in cheek. Yeah. UM. Another good example of being tongue 597 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: in cheek is UM. There's this great article from Alex 598 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: Miyasi Prisonomics where they were talking about UM how very 599 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: frequently on like UM forums and and UM just basically 600 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: hangouts for rock paper scissors aficionados. They they'll mention UM 601 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: the book The Trio of Hands by Voyeck small soa 602 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 1: and that it basically like the Bible about rock paper scissors, 603 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: and you know, wisdom about rock paper scissors. And I've 604 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: seen that um small So is compared to loud Zoo 605 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,959 Speaker 1: and UM that that he he was just this great 606 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: rock paper scissors UM kind of uh champion, I guess. 607 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: And this person is totally made up. The book is 608 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: made up, none of it exists, but yet you'll find 609 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: it everywhere. So it's almost like they wove this kind 610 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: of alternate universe, hilarious alternate universe UM to kind of 611 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: make rock paper scissors more important than it it possibly 612 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: could have ever been. Yeah, and see now I'm looking 613 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: at these uh pre planned throws and wondering if this 614 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:48,919 Speaker 1: is all a joke too. I don't think so, because 615 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: they actually make sense. And I was watching one of 616 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,959 Speaker 1: the tournaments and they were doing it like that. Okay, Well, 617 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: the idea is that you can't just stroll in there 618 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: as an eleven year old girl and say rock is obvious, 619 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: so you always start with scissors. Um, that's you know, 620 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: that's playground level stuff. So apparently the pros and the 621 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: tournament will sort of like an NFL team will prescript 622 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: their first drive a lot of times on offense and 623 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: just go with these plays. And then they start calling 624 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: the plays by gut or whatever. They have pre eight 625 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: pre set gambits that they are going to play, and 626 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: I guess they mix them up. I mean, obviously not 627 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,240 Speaker 1: everyone's playing the same order. Oh I'm sorry, So I 628 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: think these are real, but I'm not sure they're real. 629 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: I thought you were talking about the actual way that 630 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: you're supposed to hold your hand. Oh no, no, no, no, 631 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: we'll talk about that. Cambits. I don't know that it 632 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: makes sense. It makes sense, it got great names. Yeah, sure, 633 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: should we tick through these. Yeah, there's the avalanche, which 634 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: is rock, rock and rock, right, of course, I love it. 635 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,760 Speaker 1: What about the bureaucrat. The bureaucrat is paper paper, paper, 636 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: makes sense? Uh, we have scissor, scissor scissor, which is 637 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: the toolbox. Yeah, um, I'd like this one fist full 638 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,800 Speaker 1: of dollars paper rock paper, So it's like you got 639 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 1: money sticking out of each side of your hand, your fist. Okay, 640 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: I like the scissor, sandwich, paper, scissors, paper. And the 641 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,280 Speaker 1: point is is like if you are playing and you 642 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: you you kind of do your your three tries out 643 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: of this because you know you played best two out 644 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: of three and then in a tournament that best two 645 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: out of three. Um is, So it's game and then 646 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: match there's best two out of three games and then 647 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: best two out of three match. Um So, I guess 648 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: you could play a whole game with just one of 649 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: those gambits, depending on as long as there's no draws. Right. 650 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: But what you what you were talking about earlier with 651 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: the way they do it, it is different and you 652 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: mentioned it or at the beginning of the episode. When 653 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: you throw paper, you don't turn your wrist and go 654 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,720 Speaker 1: palm down. You just go straight out like you would 655 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,720 Speaker 1: rock or scissors with your hand, because if you were really, 656 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: really really fast and intuitive, you could technically probably see 657 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 1: someone moving their wrists in such a way to give 658 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: yourself a slight advantage on paper. Yeah, your biggest tell 659 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: is if you're throwing paper and you are you're throwing 660 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: your paper um horizontal, so palm down, you are you 661 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: watch you look at your elbow when you're doing that. 662 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 1: It's off to the side. Now throw your not throw 663 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: a paper with your palm to the side, right like vertically, 664 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: your elbow still at your side. So you would be 665 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: a chump to try to throw it um palm down 666 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: because your elbows going out and they'd be able to 667 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: see it every time. It's interesting. I can throw it 668 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: with my elbow at my side, really, I mean I can, 669 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: but it looks like I don't have use of my 670 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: shoulder any longer. I mean, I guess I could do 671 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: it like that, and if I were playing for fifty dollars, 672 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: I would do like that. But it's much easier to 673 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: just play to just throw the paper signed vertically. And 674 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: then the point of it all is all of it 675 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: comes from that one rock fist. So you've got the 676 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: rock and then you stick out all four fingers, you've 677 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: got the paper, you stick out just your index and 678 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,280 Speaker 1: birdie finger. You've got the scissors. But it's all generally 679 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 1: the same thing, and the motion is just in your 680 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,919 Speaker 1: fingers rather than your whole hand and maybe your elbow right. Uh. 681 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,280 Speaker 1: And they programmed a robot to actually be so fast 682 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: that it could see these micro moves. And this robot 683 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: was perfect. There's no way to beat this thing. If 684 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: you watch a YouTube of just Google or put in 685 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:44,800 Speaker 1: YouTube robot um almost at tick tack toe rochambo. Uh. 686 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 1: And this thing has a high speed camera and it 687 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,279 Speaker 1: can see their little micro move and it can it 688 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: can change their things so quickly. It's kind of a 689 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: frustrating watch actually because they're doing it really fast, and 690 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: the froot but just wins every time, no matter what 691 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,320 Speaker 1: the person does. Yeah, because it's cheating. It's watching that 692 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: that movement and then throwing a sign that's going to 693 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: beat it. So there's actually human players, like you were saying, 694 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: who who say? You know, people have tells you can 695 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: see what they're gonna do. And um again, that's that 696 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: all of it happens way too fast for my punity 697 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: brain to keep up with and and um and and 698 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: you know, may throw a sign that's gonna beat what 699 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: I think they're about to do. But there's been studies 700 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: that suggest that actually we do pick up on what 701 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: other people are going to throw, and that a lot 702 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 1: of times that probably explains draws, that we're actually mimicking them. 703 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: There's something called automatic imitation, and they think that it 704 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: has to do with the fact that we have a 705 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: complex of mirror neurons, which we've talked about years and 706 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: years and years ago. UM, that that where where we're 707 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,800 Speaker 1: our motor cortex basically sees what somebody else is doing 708 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: and makes us do the same thing mirror neurons, and 709 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,720 Speaker 1: that that accounts for draws. And some researchers in London 710 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: actually blindfolded some study participants. Hopefully it wasn't those same 711 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: poor kids who had to play three rounds in the 712 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: Chinese experiment and now they're just kind of like um 713 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: pigeonholed into into um rock paper scissors experiments, hopefully a 714 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 1: whole new batch of people. But they blindfolded some of them, 715 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: and the blindfolded ones if both participants were blindfolded, they drew. 716 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: They had to draw both through the same sign like 717 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: thirty three percent of the time, but if one of 718 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: the participants wasn't blindfolded, the draws went up to like 719 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: thirty six percent. Right, well, what do you do for 720 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,879 Speaker 1: a living? I do rock paper scissor studies mainly, right, 721 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: I didn't want to kind of fell into it. Pay 722 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: is not great, but you know, it's cool. They mentioned 723 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: this on stuff you should know. Uh, yeah, they they 724 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: exactly what you would think happened. Happened the Nash equilibrium 725 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: sort of play out. When they were all blindfolded up 726 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: was thirty three point three percent, and then when it 727 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 1: wasn't that, how much did it kick up three point 728 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,359 Speaker 1: three to a draw? Yeah, which just statistically significant. Say 729 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 1: that again, it is statistically significant. Oh goodness, it certainly is. 730 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: So I think we got to finish on the side 731 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: blotch lizards because this is just amazingly cool. Yeah. To me, 732 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,839 Speaker 1: this was like what a way to end. It's kind 733 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: of the perfect thing because there is in nature sort 734 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 1: of an evolutionary game of rock paper scissors being played 735 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 1: out in front of our human eyeballs. Uh, and the 736 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: what is it? The side blotch lizard because the three uh, 737 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: there are three varieties with the color of their throat. 738 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 1: The males have either an orange, a yellow, or a 739 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: blue throat, and each of them have their own advantages 740 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: and disadvantages which we're gonna go over, but none of 741 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 1: them have won out over time as far as evolution 742 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: is concerned. So they switch like the dominan species switches out. 743 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: Is it yearly or just like every few years, It 744 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: seems like over very long spans of time, right, it 745 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: plays out because there's not one advantage over the other. 746 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: And I just think this is super awesome. Yeah, because 747 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: just like in rock paper scissors, one can defeat the 748 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: other but is defeated by the third one and vice versas. 749 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 1: So in this, in this kind of evolutionary game of 750 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 1: rock paper scissors, that these these lizards are locked into. 751 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 1: Orange throated ones are dominant over blue throated males, but 752 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,240 Speaker 1: yellow throated males are dominant over orange throad of males, 753 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,919 Speaker 1: and blue throated males are dominant over yellow So each 754 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,360 Speaker 1: one has a foil and one that it can conquer, 755 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: which is not so amazing, but with orange males they're 756 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,760 Speaker 1: super dominant. Um, they're super aggressive. They defend their territory 757 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: to the death, and so they command um large territories 758 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 1: with lots of females that the orange throated of males 759 00:43:55,719 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: um mate with like frequently all the time. You stopped, 760 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: but they they But so you would think, well, then 761 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 1: why wouldn't the orange throaded males have have taken over 762 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,239 Speaker 1: and they're only be orange throated males. My friend Chuck 763 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: is going to explain that part. Are these the yellows? Yeah, 764 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: I think the yellows okay, uh yeah, you got your 765 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: yellow throated males. They are, well, I think it's interesting. 766 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: It's sort of like a picture of humans in a way. 767 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: Because the orange throatd I think we should mention the 768 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: blue throated They have smaller territories but only one female, 769 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: and they all work together to get things done and 770 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: to defend against attack. So these are two different, really 771 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: different societies. And then you've got your yellow throats. They 772 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 1: don't have any territory. They are mercenaries and rogues. They 773 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: don't have any females to call their own. But their 774 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,360 Speaker 1: evolutionary trait was they evolved to be able to sneak 775 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,640 Speaker 1: into enemy territory and secretly mate with the females, right, 776 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: So for the yellow ones, if the orange ones are dominant, 777 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 1: that's good for a yellow throated male because there's plenty 778 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,640 Speaker 1: of territory and plenty of females to sneak in and 779 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 1: mate with. And so over time, the yellow throated males 780 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: start to outnumber the orange throated males because they've snuck 781 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: in and mate it with so many of the orange 782 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,680 Speaker 1: throated males. Mates pretty awesome, right, So the orange numbers 783 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: shrink and the yellow numbers grow up, but the yellow 784 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: tend to be um shrunk. The numbers are shrunken by 785 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 1: the blue because the blues cooperate with one another to 786 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,439 Speaker 1: defend other blue throated mails against yellows that sneak in, 787 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,760 Speaker 1: and so blues do best when I think there's uh, 788 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: when there's a lot a lot of yellows. Yellows are 789 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: most successful when there's a lot of oranges because they 790 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,320 Speaker 1: can sneak in. And then orange does best when there's 791 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,720 Speaker 1: a lot of blues around because they're defending the oranges 792 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: territory inadvertently from those sneaky yellow guys. That's right, And 793 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,759 Speaker 1: I think the perfect end of this is in you know, 794 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand years, they'll go to study these and 795 00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:00,160 Speaker 1: they will just see a waste land of orange inch 796 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 1: blue and yellow throated males dead on the ground, with 797 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,240 Speaker 1: all the female side blotch lizards standing there, having figured 798 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 1: out how to reproduce without sex from males. I think 799 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 1: that's a grime song. Might anything else? I got nothing else? Well, everybody, 800 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: that was Rock paper scissors? And again, good pick chuck, 801 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, Dave. If you want to know 802 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,280 Speaker 1: about rock paper scissors, go play some rock paper scissors 803 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: or Jack Kemp, Jacques Campo or whatever you want to 804 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: call it. Um And in the meantime, I say it's 805 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 1: time for listener mail. I'm gonna call this uh funny misspronunciation. 806 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,000 Speaker 1: So we gotta cover this because we got a lot 807 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:53,880 Speaker 1: of emails about that. Oh yeah, cookie, most ever, Hello 808 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,919 Speaker 1: from Smithers b C. I'm a big fan, guys, can't 809 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: get enough random knowledge squeeze into my brain. Even bought 810 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: myself Your Trivial Your Trivial Pursuit game for Christmas. Very nice, 811 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 1: which hopefully we'll be back on shelves soon. By the 812 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,799 Speaker 1: way end of January, I think they're saying, okay, great, 813 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:10,440 Speaker 1: I had a good laugh. The other day, listening to 814 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: the Cookies episode, I think it was Josh had the 815 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 1: most hilarious unique pronunciation of uh. Well, I think it's 816 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: the Nanaimo cookie is correct, right, Yeah? What did you 817 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: say Nanaimo? Okay, well, it's got a Japanese player to it. 818 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 1: That makes sense. It was. It was a very naive 819 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: way of putting uh. Side note, I don't think bars 820 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:37,880 Speaker 1: are cookies there bars, especially if they have different layers. 821 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:39,319 Speaker 1: I had to think for a second about what he 822 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: was trying to say. Even this bar is named after 823 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: the city on Vancouver Island, does pronounced Nanaimo Naimo City. 824 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:51,360 Speaker 1: I guess you can put that in the list of 825 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: funny Canadian names only Canadians and how to say like Saskatchewan, uh, 826 00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 1: mississaugua and took two yet took a yaktok. Very nice. 827 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure you nailed all three of those. Sure that 828 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,799 Speaker 1: is from Anna Ziegler. Thanks a lot, Anna. If one 829 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: of those two, um, if you have a nice, gentle 830 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,440 Speaker 1: correction like Anna did. We love to hear those kind 831 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,880 Speaker 1: of things. And you can send it to his via email, 832 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,000 Speaker 1: wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send 833 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:26,360 Speaker 1: it off. To stuff podcast at i heart radio dot com. 834 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,760 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of I heart Radio. 835 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,759 Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the i heart 836 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 1: radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 837 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 1: favorite shows.