1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,239 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to law your Mind. 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. And 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: in this episode we're talking about designer jeans with a G, 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: not with a J. Yeah, I know you wore your 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: best I have my george As jeans on. You can 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: still enjoy wearing them, but uh, but yeah, we're taking 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: things to pigmentic level here. And this is based in 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: large part on a World Science Festival panel that you 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: attended in New York City. It's right Designer Jenes fashioning 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: our Biological Future, which you can check out. Can just 12 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: you can google w s F or excuse me, the 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: World Science Festival, I should say, and designer jeans and 14 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: look at a very spirited discussion about the future of 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: reproduction and a couple of really great panelists on there. 16 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: But we wanted to bring it to you guys as 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: attention because some of the technology that's happening is fascinating 18 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: and it brings up all sorts of ideas and problems 19 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: and solutions. Maybe. Yeah, I mean, there's a there's a 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: lot of controversy in this this general area of scientific 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: investigation and discovery, and there has been for some time 22 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: because we're you end up diving down into some of 23 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: the central ideas about what it is to be human 24 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: and how the how humans work as a species, how 25 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: we evolve or how we don't evolve and uh, and 26 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: people get a bit touchy about that. I mean, and 27 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: to your point, they get a bit touchy about it 28 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: in this panel you attended, and certainly that's what makes 29 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: a great panel discussion. Yeah, in the premise of this panel, 30 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: or a couple of questions thrown out there, like what 31 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: if you could prevent disease through genetic engineering even before conception? 32 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: All right, would you do it? The Goud answered the yes, right, 33 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: you'd want to give your child a leg up in 34 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: the biological world and and um, you know you have 35 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: that child not have to experience, um, some serious disease. 36 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: But the other question was what if you could tinker 37 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 1: a little bit more with genetics and give that child, 38 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: say a propensity for uh, you know, more robust intellectual 39 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: skills or powers or even athletic prowess. You kind of 40 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: get into this area of of science and genetic science 41 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: as they is an honor system candy dish. Do you 42 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: take the one piece of candy or do you or 43 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: do you maybe you take out a one for later 44 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: as well, or maybe you just reach it and get 45 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: a whole handful. At what point do we self regulate? 46 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: At which point do we stop? At what point do 47 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: we need someone else saying don't get five candies, only 48 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: get one? Yeah, And we do have a basis in 49 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: reality to start judging these things by. So we're gonna 50 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: get in the time machine and go back a little bit. First, 51 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna go back to the nineties seventies in which 52 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: there was a firestorm in Cambridge because there was this 53 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: idea of recombinant DNA happening at a very serious level. 54 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: You have this moment once scientists in genetic engineering, we're 55 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 1: trying to move forward with this, and they were trying 56 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: to create guidelines with the National Institutes of Health, and 57 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: we're doing that, and there were a couple of alarmist, 58 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: couple of scientists who said, wait a second week, should 59 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: sit back, because this is very important here. If you 60 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: can take a bacteria and you can tinker with its genes, 61 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: and you can do it in a way that this 62 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: bacteria survives this and thrives. Does this mean that will 63 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: be unlashing pathogens? Does this mean that this ability also 64 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: allows us to start to create Frankenstein chang the F word, 65 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: the scientific f word. Uh, Yeah, and which inevitably comes up. 66 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: And I don't believe we've podcasted on Frankenstein before, not 67 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: only as a fictional character, but just as an idea, 68 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: as a symbol of science gone too far. Science Uh, 69 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: interfering with with with with the human condition in in 70 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: a meaningful way. Yeah, And this, of course is a 71 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: discussion that has to happen. But out of this discussion 72 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: comes again these guidelines for genetic engineering, many of which 73 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: are still in place today. And if you want to 74 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: look at why they had a problem with this in 75 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: the first place, well you have to go even back 76 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: further in history and look at the American eugenics movement, 77 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: which happened in the late eighteen hundreds and early neteen 78 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: hundreds and is fundamentally a misunderstanding of genes and how 79 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: they work in our past. Down in people now be're 80 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: familiar with the term eugenics, it probably carries a certain 81 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 1: dark weight for you because it it has become synonymous 82 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: with with with human breeding programs, essentially with force sterilization, 83 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: and with the rise of of of the Nazi regime 84 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: in Germany. Yeah, it's all bungled up in this. So 85 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: if you look at the American eugenics movement, you see 86 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 1: that there's this oversimplification of how genetics works. So you 87 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: start to have scientists say, oh, well, we think that 88 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: these traits are passed down and and here's this imbecile 89 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: and really this is the this is the jargon that 90 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: that you used in these papers. Um, here's this imbecile 91 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: breeding another imbecile, and how could we stop this? Well, 92 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: sterilization is one way that we could stop it. And 93 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: they start to actually put this into practice because at 94 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: the same time this is happening, there are a lot 95 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: of people who are being institutionalized when they should not 96 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: have been. So maybe a person had um a bad 97 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: case of alcoholism or some other thing that didn't line 98 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: up to society in the society's best solution at that 99 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: moment was, well, just put them in an institution. And 100 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: then you have this problem with this eugenics coming online 101 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:50,679 Speaker 1: actually garnering um some credibility as a way to measure 102 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: someone's uh not just i Q, but what their general 103 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: traits were. Yeah, you see this push to to say, oh, 104 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: well this person is I mean any in a sense, 105 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,559 Speaker 1: Eugenics at a very basic level has it's not setting 106 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: out to do evil. A few few human endeavors really 107 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: say all right, what can we do to just really 108 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: make a dark name for ourselves? I mean, the the 109 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: idea is essentially, can we improve humans? Can we ensure 110 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: healthy babies? But you quickly get into this area we're saying, well, 111 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: let's just sterilize the the imbeciles, let's sterilize the criminals, 112 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: let's sterilize the homosexuals, and uh and and inevitably you 113 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: get into this very dark in human territory. And if 114 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: someone is institutionalized in a sense, many of their rights 115 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: have been taken away, and there have been. There's actually 116 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: a very famous case called Buck versus Bell that looks 117 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: at whether or not someone has rights on this and 118 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: it's still on the on the books, right, it's a law, 119 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: and we won't go into it because, um, it's a 120 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: pretty lengthy case. But basically someone was sterilize because the 121 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: mom had been in an institution, and the line of 122 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: reasoning was that she was genetically predis pose to be 123 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: an imbecile like her mother. Therefore, let's sterilize her. So 124 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: this is a problem, right, this this line of logic. Moreover, 125 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: you've got a bit of xenophobia going on at this time. 126 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: There's a large immigrant population, So there's this idea again that, um, 127 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: you know that there's a sort of purretty that's being 128 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: muddied with their muddy in our waters. What can we 129 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: do to purify ours? Yeah? And who does this what 130 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: sort of a line of reasoning does this appeal to? Uh? 131 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: The old Hitler? Yeah, yeah, the old the old Hitler, 132 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: as you say, the Nazi Party. And clearly yeah, you 133 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: see uh, you look back in time. You see Hitler 134 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:42,679 Speaker 1: picking up on ideas of American American eugenics. You see 135 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: mine comp referencing the language of the American eugenics movement. 136 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: You see them sort of in a mutual admiration society, 137 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: where the American eugenics movement individuals and that are saying, oh, 138 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: look at the great work they're doing in Germany. They're 139 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: doing there, there's so much more advanced than we are. 140 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: And then likewise you have people on the German side saying, oh, 141 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: the American eugenics movement. They have it figured out. We 142 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: we should be doing uh more of what they're doing, 143 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: and both sides are kind of headed for for a 144 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: very real disaster. Right. In fact, some of the ideas 145 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: and writings of the American eugenics movement shows up in 146 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: linkom right like this is to the this is the 147 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: extent to which they are in bed with each other. However, 148 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: there's a backing off by the American eugenic society because 149 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: eventually what we see are these ideas manifesting themselves in 150 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: very real ways leading up to World War Two. So thankfully, 151 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: this movement in America loses a lot of its momentum 152 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 1: and people back away from it, and they begin to 153 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: understand that this is we're going into a territory here 154 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: that we don't necessarily want to go into. We don't 155 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: want to sterilize people. At this point, I do want 156 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,119 Speaker 1: to point out that thirty states had adopted sterilization policies 157 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: for those institutions or jails, So it really did make 158 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: somewhat of a mainstream play here. Yeah, and you look 159 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: back through it some notable cases. I mean, for instance, 160 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: you have Alan Turing central figure and computer science and 161 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: AI prosecuted for homosexuality in nineteen fifty two when such 162 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: acts were still criminalized in the UK, and he accepted 163 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: treatment with the estrogen injections also known as chemical castration 164 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: as an alternative to prison. Um. This little sad, yeah, 165 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: tragic story. Um. Another interesting case that I ran across, 166 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: and this surprised me. Uh Sweden. Sweden has a reputation 167 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: for being a very friendly to LGBT interest for the 168 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: most part. Right, but up until two thousand thirteen, if 169 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: a Swedish transgender person wanted to legally update their gender 170 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: on official I D BIT I D papers Uh in 171 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two, law required them to both get divorced 172 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: and sterilized. First. Yeah, that came off the books in 173 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen, so it's no longer reality. But two. 174 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: So all of this gives I think everybody a good 175 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,719 Speaker 1: idea of the basis that scientists are working off in 176 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy when all of a sudden, genetic engineering becomes 177 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: a very real thing, and they look back to the 178 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: past and how this how technology or science or ideas 179 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: were used, and they go forward and we're still in 180 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: the shadow of eugenics. Yeah, it's a very long shadow, 181 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: and it's casting its shadow over some technologies. Now they're 182 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: actually very helpful. But again there's a bit of a 183 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: firestorm about that. So let's take a quick break and 184 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: when we get back, we are going to talk about 185 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: the three person I v at all. Right, we're back, 186 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about a little something called 187 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: mitochondrial transfer or how might have we have heard of 188 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: this in the media? Okay, it has been picked up 189 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: as babies with three parents, also called three person in 190 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: vitro fertilization and and not used yet. It would be 191 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: uh manajatifah, I think we can coin that one. You know, 192 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: we could probably do that and there would be some 193 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 1: there would be one person on the panel that it 194 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: would be pretty annoyed with that, and for good reason, Yeah, 195 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: I mean, because it is a this is a situation 196 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: where if you're talking about this in terms of three person, 197 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: three parents, babies, etcetera, you are focusing on one little 198 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: detail of the situation and kind of blowing it out 199 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: of proportion. But how can you not when you're talking 200 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 1: about a three genetics influencing the birth of a child 201 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: instead of just two or one in the case of cloning. 202 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: I just think it's funny that that sort of baggage 203 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: comes to the table, that this idea that's like managua 204 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: genetic material coming together, because it's not really that um 205 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: and yet that's that's probably the sexiest way that the 206 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: media or anybody else can kind of describe it. Yeah, 207 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't sound as sexy because well, let 208 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: me just to explain really quickly what mitochondrial transfer is. 209 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: This is when doctors inject the cytoplasm from another woman's 210 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: egg into the egg of a patient with mitochondrial disease. 211 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: And the aim here is to eliminate mitochondrial disease from 212 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: the resulting offspring. But the offspring in question essentially technically 213 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: those three genetic parents. Yeah, we'll get more into that 214 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: to the actual statistics, but but that yeah, but that's 215 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: just the the the endpoint of that, I mean, the 216 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: important part is you're trying to help a woman who 217 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: severs ther minochondrial disease have healthy offspring that does not 218 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: suffer from it. That's the aim here. It's not let's 219 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: get all Frankenstegni and make make three parent genetic families no, no. 220 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: Mutations in mitochondrial DNA can cause rare but really serious 221 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: illnesses and defects, including heart failure, dementia, and blindness. And 222 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: many of these conditions are fatal and diseases like diabetes, stroke, 223 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: cardiac deffects, epilepsy, or muscle weak this may originate from 224 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: mitochondrial defects. Okay, so there's a lot going on here, 225 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: there's a preventative measure um, and let's just kind of 226 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: back up a little bit up and go back to 227 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: mitochondria because I know, I feel like everybody's probably in there, 228 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: like fifth grade or sixth grade class right now. I'm 229 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: talking about the powerhouse of the cell um. But it's 230 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: more than that. It has its own DNA and it's 231 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: a separate DNA UH in the nucleus, and mitochondrial DNA 232 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: is inherited via the maternal line from mother to child. 233 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: That's why this is a problem, right, It's passed down. 234 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: So when you do this, when when you make this 235 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: transfer from a donor egg, the resulting egg, which has 236 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: the nucleus from the intending mother, has nine nine percent 237 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: of its coding DNA from the intended mother. So we're 238 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: talking about it just an infantesmal amount of genetic material 239 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: from the donor egg. You cannot say this is like 240 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: a three person embryo, but technically you can, yeah yeah, 241 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: um yeah. And so of course people end up focusing 242 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: on that. I can't I mean, I can fault them, 243 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: but I can't fault people for for finding that idea 244 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: kind of exciting because it again, it changes the way 245 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 1: you sort of think about what. It changes the way 246 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: you think about just two person parentage or one person parentage. Well, 247 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it takes me back to when we talked 248 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: about chimeras. Right, this is that case in which there 249 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: was a person who had not absorbed her twin like intentionally, 250 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: but you know, she survived and she, um, she did 251 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: absorb her twins, so she had the genetic material from 252 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: her twin. But this is a single birth. Right. Later on, 253 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: she would have children of her own, and she had 254 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: a very serious illness and so that what it is 255 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: that touched the children to see if they could, um, 256 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: I believe give her Maybe it was a kidney or 257 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: something like this, But they found that the at least 258 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: two of her three children were not genetic matches. They 259 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: matched the absorbed twins. So The idea here again is 260 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: that this kind of thing happens in nature. Sometimes it's 261 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: not so crazy, it's not so frank Instinian, but then 262 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: we end up we end up calling the cameras, which 263 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: is of course the name of a monster as well. 264 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: So you kind of can't help but fall into that 265 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: trap with with language and our understanding of of these 266 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: these scientific principles. Well, the problem with minochondrial transfer, at 267 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: least right now is twofold, and one is that there 268 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: are objections that the embryo would contain genetic material from 269 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: three different people, and they don't know how this would work, 270 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: how this would interplay. In other words, would the embryo 271 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: maybe reject some of that genetic material, would it cause 272 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: problems with that child later on? Um. The other part 273 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: of this is there's a question about whether or not 274 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: any of those mitochondrial genes from the mother may still 275 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: be present. In the words, you can get all of 276 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: them out, and that remains to be answered whether or 277 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: not there there'd be a tiny colony um from the 278 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: mom with the mutations that might eventually take over the 279 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: other mitochondrial DNA colony from the donor egg. So it's 280 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: something we would need to proceed with with small scale 281 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: scale studies on really but but then it involves embryos, 282 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: it's a it's a hot button issue. How do you 283 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: get the go ahead to actually research this even though 284 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: it can be a tremendous aid to the individual suffering 285 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: from these mitochondrial diseases that they want to have children. Yeah, 286 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: and so that's the problem right here, like how do 287 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: you start human clinical trials with these concerns and with 288 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: some scientists still on the fence of, hey, we shouldn't 289 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: go down this road because it's a slippery slope. You 290 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: start doing mitochondrial transfers now, and then all of a 291 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: sudden you'll be creating super babies with all sorts of traits. 292 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: And so that's that's part and partial the problem with 293 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: this right now, the reason why some doctors cannot get 294 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: into human trials even though they've had successful creation of 295 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: healthy human's eyegoats in animals. One of the individuals on 296 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: that panel, uh it was a man by the name 297 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: of a Sheldon Krimsky, Professor of Urban and Environmental policy 298 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: and Planning at Tufts University, and he he was kind 299 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: of the antagonist on the study. But like One of 300 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 1: the things he was bringing up is, well, there's this 301 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: so called m ao a warrior gene and human that 302 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: is all about human aggression. And so then what parents 303 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't eliminate that to make their child less war Like, 304 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: I guess if you really want a kid to succeed 305 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: it at sports, you'd say give them two of those 306 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: if you can. But um, you know, it's that kind 307 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: of argument people want up making. You know, if you 308 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: if you can take one one candy from the jar, 309 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: why wouldn't you take to why wouldn't you take three? Well, 310 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: so what some of the other panelists said is we're 311 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: not at that point yet anyway, and so it's not 312 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: as simple as that. You can't really just go in 313 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: and say, oh, well that's the aggression, Jane, take it 314 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: out now, we're good to go. Exactly. So Nita for honey, 315 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: she's a genome science is in policy, the lawyer, UM, 316 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: and actually the Obama administration UH was saying that we 317 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: shouldn't really over worry this at this point because the 318 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,479 Speaker 1: technology is not a ready for us to select at 319 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: that level, and be on some level we are already 320 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: selecting for traits. So if you are a woman who 321 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: is looking for a sperm donor. You're going through a 322 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: book and you might be selecting for blonde hair, you 323 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: might be selecting for brown eyes, you might be selecting 324 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 1: for their athletic prowess or intellectual abilities. This is kind 325 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: of already being done at a very basic level. So 326 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: what she's saying is this, it's time now to look 327 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: at the past, look at eugenics. You look at the 328 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and some of the guidelines that were created then, 329 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: and move the goal post a little bit and then 330 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: reassess later, and just so that something like monochondrial transfer 331 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: can be a reality for parents who are trying to 332 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: have children who are free of these This is at 333 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: lease diseases. Yeah, I mean you could. I mean, you 334 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 1: could certainly argue that looking through a portfolio of ptital 335 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: sperm donors. So that's more like, I mean, there's a 336 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: difference between um choosing something off a menu and going 337 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: back into the kitchen and telling them what to put 338 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: in the soup. Right, But on the other hand, it's 339 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: it's it's very limiting to sort of shackle yourself to 340 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: this idea that we cannot proceed because we will mess 341 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: things up too much. I mean, we would we ever 342 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: get anything done scientifically if we went forward with that idea. Though, 343 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: interestingly enough, it seems like we're really great at advancing 344 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: science if we say we're doing this so we can 345 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: kill people better and then in which case all the 346 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: funding you need. Well exactly, but no, it might harm 347 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: somebody even though we're trying to help people. We might 348 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 1: use it to there might be some sort of moral 349 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: concern with it. Therefore, no no procession at all. So 350 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: what's interesting about this is that some of the same 351 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: arguments were presented when IVF first came um into public awareness. 352 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: So in mutual fertilization, and obviously IVF could not have 353 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: moved forward unless they did it in human trials and 354 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: found it to be safe for both the mother and 355 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: the baby, and lo and behold, they found out that 356 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: that is the case, and that is actually a path 357 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: for a lot of parents these days that they go 358 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: down IVF. And it's so it's so sort of wrote 359 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: now that it's hard to believe that this was in 360 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: that same category as minochondrial transfer twenty years ago. Yeah, 361 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: I mean it was mentioned in Future Shock, and we 362 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: we've talked about in our future shock episode and if 363 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: you go back, I mean I certainly remember those uh 364 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: editions of like Time magazine or Newsweek and the sort 365 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: of the scary idea of the test two baby. Yeah, 366 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: which today I mean nobody, nobody cares. We're past that 367 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: that that fear. Yeah. So in the same way, minochondrial 368 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: transfer really needs to have those human trials in order 369 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: to find out yes, this is safe for the child, 370 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: is this say for the mother and um and to 371 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: see what if any risks are associated with it. It's 372 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: just interesting because again it brings up that can of 373 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: worms of well, okay, we do this, and as uh 374 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 1: Sheldon Crunsky on the the panel said, you do that, 375 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: and there's this concern that we once we start, we 376 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: won't be able to stop. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, yeah, 377 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: I guess I kind of to a limited extent. Think 378 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: of it in terms of taking the tyler to the playground. Yes, 379 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: the toddler is going to injure himself, he's gonna fall 380 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: off of something, he's gonna get in a tussle with 381 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: another tydler. But what do you do. Do you not 382 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: go to the playground at all? Do you just stay 383 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: in the house on a beautiful day. No, you gotta 384 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: get out there, right out there. I mean, we're humans. 385 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: We're going to mess things up. We're going to create 386 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: all sorts of problems for ourselves. But science has been 387 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: a tool that has allowed us, yes to to cause 388 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: great harm in the world, but also do great good. 389 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: I mean, science is really the thing that we do 390 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: the best. I mean, that is the discipline that we've 391 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: created that is greater than ourselves. Yeah, and there may 392 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: be some other technologies coming online that actually know all 393 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: these arguments. And so I'm thinking about George Church. He 394 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: is a geneticist and involved in in the Human Genome 395 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: Mapping project, and he says that genetic diseases can be 396 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: traced simply by examining sperm and then seeing if it 397 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 1: maps against genetic diseases that a female may possess. So 398 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: he has this whole system where they're like five hundred 399 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: different genetic diseases that they can test for in sperm 400 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: before it is actually um transferred into fertilize an egg. 401 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: The problem with this, of course, is that you know, 402 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: if you have a couple who they're trying to do this, 403 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: and they know that the mom has some mitochondrial DNA 404 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 1: diseases that she carries, and they find out that the 405 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: dad does too, well, then that kind of it doesn't 406 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: really help them. But if you have a female who 407 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: is seeking u orm donor, that certainly helps. And then 408 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: then other technology that maybe around the corner is embryonic 409 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: genome mapping, and that is taking the embryo itself and 410 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: testing it for possible genetic diseases before it's even transferred 411 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: back into the mother. Interesting. Yeah, so there are these 412 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: things that are happening, um that, yes, they're getting us 413 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: closer to this idea of these designer babies, and yet 414 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: at the same time you're so very far away from 415 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: that idea from from that actually happening. I ran across 416 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: an interesting quote on this, uh this topic. This is 417 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: from Ross Douthitt uh two thousand twelve opinion piece in 418 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: New York Times entitled Eugenics Past and Future. He asked, 419 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: is this sort of liberal eugenics in which the agents 420 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: of reproductive selection are parents rather than the state entirely 421 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: different from the eugenics of Fisher's area, which forced sterilization 422 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: on unwilling women and men. Alright, So it's an interesting question, 423 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: and I feel like Nina Harani, who is on the panel, 424 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: would say, this is not at all the same thing. 425 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: These are parents who want to make sure that their 426 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: child is as disease free and illness free as he 427 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: or she could be in their lifetime and are trying 428 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: to you know, sort a family This. This is not 429 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: some sort of um like government industrial complex on trying 430 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: to create these designer babies. This is these are very 431 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: individual personal choices versus sort of the state mandate of 432 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: of how we're going to go forward with genetics. Yeah. 433 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: I mean it's easy I find with myself when I 434 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: when I think about this, it's easy to sort of 435 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 1: think of it in terms of, all, right, well, they 436 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: are going to be the people that are going to 437 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: be conceivably making a designer baby. I tend to think, well, 438 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: this is going to be sort of a an upper 439 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: crust sort of thing. So there's almost kind of a 440 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: like a class envy there, you know, where you think, well, 441 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: this would be technology that's only going to be available 442 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: for a certain segment of the population. Yes, but then 443 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: for far A. Honey points out that overwhelmingly when parents 444 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: are trying to create biological children, they want them to 445 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: look like themselves. It's sort of an ego thing. So 446 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: most likely parents are going to go way outside of 447 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: of even how they want their child to be as 448 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: a human being. And I mean traits like openness or uh, 449 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: introverted or extroverted or you know, all these sort of 450 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: certain things that determine our personalities, let alone their hair 451 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: color or their eye color. So I think what Farah 452 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: Honey is saying there is that, um, you know, just 453 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: that we may just be over extrapolating this idea that 454 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: we're going to create these children that are vastly different 455 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: from ourselves. Yeah, yeah, I think so. All right, So 456 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: there you have it, designer children. Some of the uh, 457 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: some of the current sciences out there. There's some of 458 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: the near future science that's there as well, uh and 459 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: a lot of just concerns over the ethics the morality 460 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: of this whole topic. And so I'm sure a lot 461 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: of you have some informed opinions on all of this. 462 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: What do you what do you think about the idea 463 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: of designer children? What would what would you do? What 464 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: wouldn't you do? Uh to have healthy offspring? Yeah? Where 465 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: do you think the goal post would be set? Way 466 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 1: too far down the field. I'm very interested in knowing 467 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 1: that from you guys out there, Like, what do you 468 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: think is okay in terms of genetic conkering and what 469 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: is like No, forget it. I say no more than 470 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: six arms and no metal skin, because it's just it's 471 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: just gonna be difficult to handle the playground, Like I 472 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: was just thinking, the playground, that's just such an advantage 473 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 1: for some children. Yeah, but then how are you gonna 474 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: get them off the playground equipment you're trying to Let 475 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: have you ever tried to pull your child off of 476 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 1: like a ladder or something. It's like they have amazing grip. 477 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: Imagine if they had six arms, it would be almost impossible. Yeah, 478 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: you would need a special instrument for that. And you 479 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: have to wipe all those hands after they're through, you know, 480 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: decimating a bowl of apple sauce. It's just it's just 481 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: too much. Keeps limited to really two hands for Max. 482 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: Al Right, guys, you knew where you can find us 483 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: stuff that blow your mind? Dot Com, as Robert says, 484 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: the mothership of everything that is s t B. I am, 485 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: that's right. 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