WEBVTT - Bonus Ep 2: Why me? 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:06.880 Novel. 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:19.759 I began reporting for The Bunny Trap way back in 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:22.360 twenty twenty when I got an email from a group 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.880 of glamour models in the UK. They wanted to make 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:28.400 known the allegations of abuse at the hands of the 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:33.760 photographer Luis Gomez. That email is what started this whole investigation. 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:38.120 Reporting on it has been a wild ride. That's been 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.680 unlike any other story I've worked on before. With the 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.840 journalist of the Apocalypse, it had highs. 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:46.720 When was the last time I had a creditor? 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:49.720 I have never had a critics done by This is 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.559 my debut and Low's should think we should leave. 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:54.080 I think we should even. 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:57.120 Come back because we're going really weird vibes. 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.960 And investor wormholes. It's been so hard to get people 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.320 to talk. We've tried to get in touch with one 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:08.399 hundred and eighty nine people, Oh my god, from sort 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:10.800 of the international magazine world. 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:12.759 And out of those one hundred and eighty nine people, 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:14.400 how many wanted to talk. 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:16.920 Two? 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:27.360 Well there's. 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:28.600 But despite all that, this series was not my first rodeo. 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:32.520 In the previous Bonus episode, you heard me talk to 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.959 charity organization heard about how I went about reporting on 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:39.720 this story. In this episode, it's time for you to 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:41.000 get to know me a little better. 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:43.200 Why I'm drawn to stories. 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.200 Like these, what work I've done in the past that 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.360 fed into this investigation, and why the women in this 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:53.920 series sought my help in the first place. I'm Ellie 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.680 Flynn and from the team at Novel. This is The 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:18.680 Bunny Trap Bonus episode two. Why joining me now is 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.320 someone to pepper me with questions because it would probably 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:23.200 be a bit weird if I tried to interview myself. 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.160 Hi, Ellie, thanks so much for being up for being 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:29.400 on the other side of the microphone and talking about 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:30.000 your work. 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.640 Georgian Moody is one of the editors of The Bunny Trap, 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:34.080 and she's here in the studio with me. 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:37.440 Maybe we should start with the basics. What made you 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.320 want to be an injasically journalist in the first place. 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:44.519 So I have always wanted to be a journalist since 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:46.120 I can remember. To be honest, I think before I 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:48.680 even fully understood what it was, I remember my mum 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:50.359 saying to me when I was quite young, that I 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.400 would make it a journalist. I think that's just because 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.000 I was really annoying and asked non stock questions and 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:00.000 was just incredibly noisy, and so it was something that starts. 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.000 I liked writing when I was young, so I was like, Okay, 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:04.720 I guess I'm going to be a journalist. Without knowing 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:07.919 really what that even meant. I went to journalism school 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:13.360 and found myself being drawn towards investigations. I think it 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.360 comes from that same nosiness that I've had since I 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:19.360 was a child, where I love digging into things. Was 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.480 something as an add up asking questions, picking at it, 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:24.519 picking at it, picking at it, and trying to get 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:25.440 to the bottom of something. 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.120 And so what was the first investigation you worked on? 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:34.320 So the first big investigation I did was looking at 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:38.040 rent for sex arrangements in the UK, which is where 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:42.160 a landlord would offer a free or subsidized accommodation to 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.840 tenants in exchange for sexual favors. And it was obviously 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:50.240 a really really exploitative practice and it was really awful. 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.440 But I first came across it in a local news 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:57.200 article where some journalists I think from Kent, which is 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.160 a region in the UK, had found that they there 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:05.080 were adverts on a website advertising these kind of arrangements, 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.760 and I remember being really shocked by it. But also 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.880 thinking well, if it's happening in Kent, it must be 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.520 happening in other places. How big is this? How much 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.120 is it happening all over the UK? But the other 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:22.760 question I had was, well, as anyone taking them up, 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:26.400 is anyone actually having to enter into these arrangements because 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:28.960 they've got no alternative? And so that's what I went 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.160 to investigate, and that was my first documentary. 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.240 Ellie, this is an opportunity for you to blow your 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:39.440 own trumpet? God, is there a career achievement that you're 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:40.520 most proud of? 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:47.280 I there was a law changed after the Rent for 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.000 Sex documentary that I did. At the time of the 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:54.800 documentary for sex arrangements were not specifically a criminal offense. 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.520 There was a technicality that meant that it could be 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:02.480 prosecuted under already existing but there had been no prosecutions 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.440 and it was quite complicated. And after the documentary went 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:07.960 now and sort of increased pressure from campaign groups and 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.000 more reporting on it as an issue, eventually a law 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.640 was introduced specifically making room for sex arrangements at criminal offense. 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:16.599 Was it called the Elief Flynn law. 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:18.640 It was not called the Ellif Flyn law, but maybe 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.600 I should campaign for that sort of sounds like I'm 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.520 a perpetrators, so maybe not, actually no, yeah, maybe you 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:29.359 don't want Yeah. I think more broadly, I feel really 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.320 really proud to have been able to give a voice 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:36.920 to people who may not be heard otherwise, and I 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:41.520 think getting that out to a broad audience and they're 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.320 being impact as a result of it is something that 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:45.719 I'll always feel really really proud of. 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.400 A lot of your work has looked at issues like 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:54.520 in that series and in our series about women and 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.080 power and sex. Why do you think you're drawn to 0:05:58.520 --> 0:05:59.800 those issues in particular? 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:05.560 I think unfortunately, those issues are just so prevalent, and 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:08.200 it just feels like they come up time and time again, 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.880 and I feel like, no matter how much journalists like 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.920 me or organizations like the ones that we've heard from 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:16.640 in this series kind of bang the drama and do 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.560 what they can to try and change things, there is 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.799 a cultural problem. I think that means that violence against 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.839 women and girls all over the world is a huge, 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:31.320 huge problem, and so these stories are happening everywhere, all 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.200 over the world all the time, and I've just always 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:35.919 felt like it's really important to try and highlight that. 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.960 I know you've also looked at the rise of Only Fans, 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.800 a site that made it possible for so many people 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:48.240 to enter the sex industry and create content and make 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.520 money from their home. Can you tell me about that work. 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:57.680 Yeah, So I did a documentary in twenty nineteen looking 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.080 into this relatively new platform that people didn't really know 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:05.200 very much about called OnlyFans, and it was just before 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:08.960 the pandemic, which was when Only Fans really really blew up, 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.560 and it was this sort of quite new, unique thing, 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:16.360 but people were making insane amounts of money on it, 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:18.480 and I mean that was initially what we wanted to 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:20.160 look into, was sort of like, what is this thing? 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.880 How much money are people actually making and is that 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:27.200 true across the board? And what we found in our 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:31.000 documentary is that, yes, it is possible to make a 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:34.720 huge amount of money on OnlyFans for a very very 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:39.440 few number of models, and actually the vast majority of 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:43.680 people who start using OnlyFans make very little money, you know, 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:45.280 don't make ends meet with it at all. And so 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:47.240 then you're looking at all of these other kind of 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.120 streams of thing come and that's partly what we look 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.600 into in this series is sort of the opportunities that 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.960 then come to people in that world, and the exploitation 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.200 that comes with those supposed opportunities. It's a really, really 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.640 taboo subjet. I think people don't want to talk about it. 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:03.560 I think people have a lot of judgment for the 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.920 people who use only fans, particularly women who use only fans. 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:09.040 I think there's a lot of shame attached to it, 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:13.600 and I've always wanted to destigmatize that while also being 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.000 realistic about the pitfalls, and I think a lot of 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.760 the women in this series have been realistic about the 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:20.280 pitfalls of only fans. 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:21.520 Of the sex industry. 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.800 It is rife with exploitation, and I don't think we 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:26.960 should shy away from that, but I think we do 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:30.960 need to change the narrative where the women who are 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:33.800 in this industry aren't being shamed for being a part 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:34.040 of it. 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:39.959 Do you think it was your history of reporting on 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:44.480 the sex industry and women in the industry that meant 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.240 that the women at the heart of our series, The 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:48.679 Bunny Trap contacted you. 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:50.000 I think so. 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:53.480 I think there is understandably quite a lot of distrust 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:59.199 of the media among sex workers, among women who use OnlyFans, 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:01.800 and I think that's understandable when you look at some 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.680 of the reporting that's been done. But I think the 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.000 documentary that we made back in twenty nineteen tried really 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.720 hard to make it without judgment and without stigma, and 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.400 was just you know, looking into what only fans is 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:16.960 when it works, when it doesn't, what are the issues? 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:18.240 What should we be aware of? 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:23.439 And I think that gave me a level of credibility, 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.560 and I think that it enabled the people that I 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.440 then came to meet in this series to trust me. 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.040 Do you remember what was going through your mind when 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:34.960 you first open the email from the UK models at 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:35.840 the hand of this story. 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.640 I think any tip or story you get, you approach 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:44.240 with a level of cynicism because you have to, because 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.480 I get so many stories that aren't stories or our 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:53.480 opinions or just have no evidence behind them. So there's 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.480 never a moment of like, oh my god, because you 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:58.960 can't allow yourself as an investive journalist to have that moment, 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.280 because you have to say, Okay, well this sounds interesting, 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:03.280 but where's the evidence, Like where do I go from here? 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:05.880 I remember reading it and thinking, God, this sounds awful. 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:09.040 If it's true, it's quite shocking, and I went off, 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:12.280 and I looked up Luis Gomez and the first thing 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.240 I saw was all of these Playboy covers posted on 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.040 his Instagram, Playboy cover after Playboy cover after Playboy cover. 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:22.480 So instantly I was like, well, this looks kind of legit, 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:25.280 and that was kind of what set me off. I 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.160 was like, well, he does appear to be working for 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.320 Playboy on the surface. They say they've got models, they 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.360 say they've got screenshots, they say they've got conversations. I 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.000 was like, right, okay, let's see what you've got. And 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:36.640 you know, next thing you know, I've been sent a 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:38.760 trove of evidence from the models. 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:41.160 One of the things we cover in The Bunny Trap 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:44.000 is that, to the best of your knowledge, you're the 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:48.439 only journalists that responded to their call out. Why do 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:50.680 you think that happened? Why do you think other journalists 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:52.760 didn't also follow this lead. 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:57.360 I don't know for sure. 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:01.559 I know how many tips day a news desk gets, 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:03.920 and you know, there's a world where it just happened 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.559 to get lost by all of them. And I think, 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:08.840 you know, I'm sure that does happen all the time, 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.280 but a big part of me questions if it's because 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.800 of the world that these women work in. That is 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:18.680 something I've always wondered, you know, if they worked in 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:23.040 a different industry, almost any other industry, and this person 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:25.800 seemed to have the level of power and credibility that 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:29.680 Luis seemed to have on the surface, would it have 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.400 been at least looked into. And I think that's what 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:35.600 I found really shocking is that it wasn't even looked into. 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:39.480 There wasn't even an initial conversation or a request for 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:40.080 the evidence. 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:41.360 It just never got picked up. 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.760 It never got responded to, not even a cursory look 0:11:44.080 --> 0:12:01.679 as far as I'm aware. 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.760 So in the last episode, we looked at how we 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:14.880 can best care for contributors who were interviewing about sexual abuse. 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.560 But it's also tough on you, as the reporter and 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:24.120 interviewer to kind of keep asking people questions about something 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:28.760 which is inherently difficult and often traumatic. How do you 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:33.160 look after yourself when you're investigating a series with heavy 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.080 subject matter like this one. 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:40.320 I think I am quite good at compartmentalizing almost where 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:44.599 I'm able to separate myself from the things that I'm investigating. 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:50.000 I think that a journalist's role is to give people 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.880 space to tell their stories and to ask questions that 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:58.000 enable those stories to get out to the public. When 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.679 I'm doing an interview, I really try not to make 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.280 it about me. I try and ask questions that just 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:08.360 give the person I'm interviewing space to tell me how 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:12.000 they feel, tell me their experiences, and tell me what's 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:17.160 happened in a way that they feel comfortable doing. And 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.199 my role is to ask those questions. I just always 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.280 remind myself that it is not about me. I've got 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.480 a job to do that. My job is to get 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.600 the facts, check the facts, listen to someone, give them 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.880 space to tell their story and get their story out 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.080 to the public. And so I'm quite pragmatic about it, 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.120 and I think that helps take the emotion out slightly 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:36.960 on my end. 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.120 If there is emotion and I know there have been 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:44.040 things as part of this investigation which have been upsetting, 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:48.320 does that sometimes help motivate you to keep doing the job. 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:49.680 Yeah, I think so. 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.240 And it's always kind of actually after the interviews or 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:56.800 it's more about how those stories are then going to 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:00.240 be represented or told. Like I think I've I find 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:04.040 myself becoming a lot more emotionally invested in the process. 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.880 After an interview than I do when I'm there in 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.480 that moment speaking to someone, because it's so important to 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:12.679 get it right, and I really want to be responsible 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:17.880 with my journalism, and that can sometimes feel like a 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.040 heavy burden because it's important. And then I think that 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.760 that emotion definitely becomes a driving force in terms of 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.920 the stories that I'm investigating, the things I want to expose, 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.440 the stories I want to tell, but also in trying 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.960 as much as I can to make sure that I 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.400 get it right when it comes to putting these things 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:37.120 out in the world. 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.440 In an interview, I totally hear what you're saying about 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:44.960 it not being about you, But there are moments in 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:49.520 this series where you're being a very real human person 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.160 when someone that you're speaking to is crying. I guess 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.840 I wonder what that's like for you, Ellie the human 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:01.560 being and then Ellie the investigative journalist, and whether those 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:05.200 things are in conflict or sometimes work together. 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:10.440 Yeah, I think they always work together. Of course, if 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.440 you're in a room and someone is visibly upset and 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:16.760 crying like it's I think impossible not to be affected 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:18.920 by that or to not feel like you want to 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.040 give them a hug or you want to, and you know, 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.400 often what I'll do is I'll say, let's just like 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:24.880 turn this off for a second, as have a moment 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:27.120 to take a breather, Let's not ask any more questions. 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.360 Give someone the time to kind of gather themselves until 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.960 they feel ready to speak again. And it's in those 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.040 moments that I sort of turn off my journalism, I 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.800 suppose I and I will just be there to sort 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.760 of make sure they're okay and try and support them. 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.000 And I think that that works hand in hand with 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.680 being a good investigative journalist, because, especially if the stories 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.720 you're investigating have a human element, you have to be 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.479 a human to be able to tell them effectively. 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:56.880 What do you think are the qualities that makes a 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:58.280 good invasicative journalist? 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:01.160 Yeah, it's funny because I think actually the qualities that 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:05.640 I think make a good investigative journalist are not always 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.440 the qualities that you would associate with it. I think 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.960 probably if you'd asked me years ago, I'd have thought 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.240 it would need to be someone who's, you know, really 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.120 really organized, and then all the things that I am, 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:21.360 in all honesty, I have to work really really hard 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.480 to make sure that I am organized but what I 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:29.120 am is tenacious, I guess, and I don't let things go, 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.560 and I will keep going and keep going and keep 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:33.920 going until I get to the bottom of something. And 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.280 you know, the other aspect of it is that I 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.840 think I do have a motive human side, which I 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.040 bring into all of my investigations. And I think especially 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.360 because the things that I investigate tend to be issues 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.520 that affect women or you know that they look at 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.600 social injustices, and so I think the driving force for 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:54.960 those kind of investigations always has to come from a 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:59.960 place of realizing that it's really important and wanting change. 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:02.520 It's not all about kind of like putting complex data 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:04.280 into a spreadsheet and trying to get to the bottom 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:06.600 of it. And there are brilliant investative journalists who do 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:08.600 that kind of stuff, but it's not my bag. 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:10.840 What are some of the lessons that you'll take away 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:12.920 from working on this story. 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:16.080 I think one of the struggles that we had in 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:20.400 making this was knowing when to keep your cards close 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:24.240 to your chest and when to reach out for more information. 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.400 And that's always a dance that you have to do 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.320 when you're looking into something, because you need contacts for 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.720 information and you need to reach out to people and 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:35.280 see what they know and see if you can get 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:37.960 any intelligence on whatever you're looking into. And that's a 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.880 really important part of being a journalist. On the flip side, 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:42.960 when you are doing an investigation like this and it 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.359 is very sensitive and there is risk involved, you also 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:48.560 want to keep your cards very close to your chest, 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:51.040 and so you don't necessarily want that person to know 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.280 who you are or what you're doing. And I think 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.800 that was something that was always a struggle. And I 0:17:57.840 --> 0:17:59.960 think knowing when to reach out to people and when 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.440 to keep quiet is really difficult. And I think that, yeah, 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:06.160 that's something that I will I'll always come up against 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.280 and that I think I'll probably learn from in this. 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:15.360 I know you've worked in TV as well as audio podcasts. 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.960 Is there something you think that makes this story more 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:21.920 fitting for audio. 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:26.439 I think the complexity of it makes it more fitting 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.639 to audio. I think that it gives us the space 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:32.800 to really dig into some of those thorny issues, for example, 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:37.080 around exactly what Luis's connection is to Playboy. And I 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.119 think that if you're making a one hour documentary, you 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:41.920 just don't have the space to really really dig into 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:42.480 those things. 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:43.600 This is really complicated. 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:47.600 This world is complicated, so I think that that complexity 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:52.879 lent itself to audio, and I think people feel that 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:56.040 it's easier to talk and to open up and to 0:18:56.080 --> 0:19:00.200 share their stories when there's not a camera. Think think 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:03.080 the contributors sometimes felt quite relieved that it was audio. 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:07.040 Yeah, I think there's something people often use the word 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:11.800 intimate about audio, and I think going into a room 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.680 where we're just hearing you speaking to a woman about 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.960 what happened, like, I think that really brings the listener 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.080 with us into that space in a way that I 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:25.440 love about audio and podcasts. Yeah, the Vanni Trap is 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:29.040 finally out in the world, which we're also excited by. 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.560 What are you hoping that listeners to this series take 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:34.199 away from it? 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:39.680 I'm hoping that listeners have a bit more understanding and 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:44.000 compassion for people who work in the sex industry. I 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:48.919 want to challenge the misconception that if you work in 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.560 this industry and if you go into that room to 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.600 do whatever it is you're planning to do with whoever 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:56.480 it is that you're going to be in there with, 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.760 that that in some way opens you up to whatever 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:04.679 can had happened Because that's just not true. Consent is 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:09.840 always important, and you might be consenting to doing some 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:12.880 things that are sexually explicit, some things, you know, sexual acts, 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.080 maybe even sometimes, but if you were drawing a line 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.399 somewhere and you were saying, I don't want to go 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.399 any further than this, than that line should always be respected. 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.679 And just because whatever you were doing up until that 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:28.520 line may have been provocative or sexual in some way, 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.080 it doesn't make the line any more blurred. And I 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.119 think that that's really at the heart of this and 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:37.200 that is I think the most important thing for people 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:41.119 to take away from this series. Like, this series is 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:44.879 nuanced and complicated, but that part of it shouldn't be. 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:47.720 And what about the women at the heart of this story? 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.920 What are you hoping that they take away from listening 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:51.639 to this series. 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:58.160 I mean, it's been a long, long road. 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:02.320 I guess I hope that they heard, and I guess 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:06.400 I hope that they feel this is some sort of justice. 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:09.600 I think that they're just relieved that it's out, and 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:11.960 I hope they know how much at work went into 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:14.600 getting it out there and how important this story was 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:17.840 to me as well on a personal level. It's always 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:20.240 been really important, so I hope that they know that. 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:25.320 Well, Ellie, thank you so much for putting up with 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:27.200 being on the other side of the night today. 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:31.439 Yeah it's weird. Well I didn't grill you, so yeah, 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:32.240 no hard questions. 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.399 Thanks for joining us for the second bonus episode of 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:43.000 The Bunny Trap. We've got one more bonus episode for you. 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.120 Next time, you'll hear some trade secrets from a mother 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:49.880 daughter duo who both worked as Playboy photographers. They tell 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:52.280 us the secret to a good glamour sheet and what 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:56.320 shooting for Playboy was like in its heyday. Hint it 0:21:56.440 --> 0:22:07.879 might have involved some passying at the Playboy mansion. We 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.520 contacted Luis Gomez multiple times for comment, but we never 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:14.400 heard back. He has not been charged with any crimes 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:18.000 and is presumed innocent under the law. We also sought 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:21.760 comment from Playboy USA. They declined our requests for an interview, 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:24.879