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Speaker 1: Novel.

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Speaker 2: I began reporting for The Bunny Trap way back in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty when I got an email from a group

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Speaker 2: of glamour models in the UK. They wanted to make

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Speaker 2: known the allegations of abuse at the hands of the

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Speaker 2: photographer Luis Gomez. That email is what started this whole investigation.

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Speaker 2: Reporting on it has been a wild ride. That's been

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Speaker 2: unlike any other story I've worked on before. With the

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Speaker 2: journalist of the Apocalypse, it had highs.

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Speaker 3: When was the last time I had a creditor?

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Speaker 2: I have never had a critics done by This is

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Speaker 2: my debut and Low's should think we should leave.

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Speaker 3: I think we should even.

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Speaker 1: Come back because we're going really weird vibes.

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Speaker 3: And investor wormholes. It's been so hard to get people

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Speaker 3: to talk. We've tried to get in touch with one

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Speaker 3: hundred and eighty nine people, Oh my god, from sort

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Speaker 3: of the international magazine world.

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Speaker 2: And out of those one hundred and eighty nine people,

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Speaker 2: how many wanted to talk.

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Speaker 3: Two?

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Speaker 1: Well there's.

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Speaker 2: But despite all that, this series was not my first rodeo.

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Speaker 2: In the previous Bonus episode, you heard me talk to

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Speaker 2: charity organization heard about how I went about reporting on

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Speaker 2: this story. In this episode, it's time for you to

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Speaker 2: get to know me a little better.

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Speaker 3: Why I'm drawn to stories.

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Speaker 2: Like these, what work I've done in the past that

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Speaker 2: fed into this investigation, and why the women in this

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Speaker 2: series sought my help in the first place. I'm Ellie

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Speaker 2: Flynn and from the team at Novel. This is The

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Speaker 2: Bunny Trap Bonus episode two. Why joining me now is

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Speaker 2: someone to pepper me with questions because it would probably

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Speaker 2: be a bit weird if I tried to interview myself.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Ellie, thanks so much for being up for being

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Speaker 1: on the other side of the microphone and talking about

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Speaker 1: your work.

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Speaker 2: Georgian Moody is one of the editors of The Bunny Trap,

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Speaker 2: and she's here in the studio with me.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we should start with the basics. What made you

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Speaker 1: want to be an injasically journalist in the first place.

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Speaker 2: So I have always wanted to be a journalist since

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Speaker 2: I can remember. To be honest, I think before I

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Speaker 2: even fully understood what it was, I remember my mum

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Speaker 2: saying to me when I was quite young, that I

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Speaker 2: would make it a journalist. I think that's just because

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Speaker 2: I was really annoying and asked non stock questions and

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Speaker 2: was just incredibly noisy, and so it was something that starts.

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Speaker 2: I liked writing when I was young, so I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I guess I'm going to be a journalist. Without knowing

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Speaker 2: really what that even meant. I went to journalism school

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Speaker 2: and found myself being drawn towards investigations. I think it

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Speaker 2: comes from that same nosiness that I've had since I

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Speaker 2: was a child, where I love digging into things. Was

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Speaker 2: something as an add up asking questions, picking at it,

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Speaker 2: picking at it, picking at it, and trying to get

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Speaker 2: to the bottom of something.

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Speaker 1: And so what was the first investigation you worked on?

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Speaker 2: So the first big investigation I did was looking at

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Speaker 2: rent for sex arrangements in the UK, which is where

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Speaker 2: a landlord would offer a free or subsidized accommodation to

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Speaker 2: tenants in exchange for sexual favors. And it was obviously

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Speaker 2: a really really exploitative practice and it was really awful.

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Speaker 2: But I first came across it in a local news

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Speaker 2: article where some journalists I think from Kent, which is

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Speaker 2: a region in the UK, had found that they there

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Speaker 2: were adverts on a website advertising these kind of arrangements,

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Speaker 2: and I remember being really shocked by it. But also

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Speaker 2: thinking well, if it's happening in Kent, it must be

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Speaker 2: happening in other places. How big is this? How much

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Speaker 2: is it happening all over the UK? But the other

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Speaker 2: question I had was, well, as anyone taking them up,

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Speaker 2: is anyone actually having to enter into these arrangements because

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Speaker 2: they've got no alternative? And so that's what I went

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Speaker 2: to investigate, and that was my first documentary.

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Speaker 1: Ellie, this is an opportunity for you to blow your

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Speaker 1: own trumpet? God, is there a career achievement that you're

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Speaker 1: most proud of?

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Speaker 2: I there was a law changed after the Rent for

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Speaker 2: Sex documentary that I did. At the time of the

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Speaker 2: documentary for sex arrangements were not specifically a criminal offense.

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Speaker 2: There was a technicality that meant that it could be

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Speaker 2: prosecuted under already existing but there had been no prosecutions

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Speaker 2: and it was quite complicated. And after the documentary went

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Speaker 2: now and sort of increased pressure from campaign groups and

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Speaker 2: more reporting on it as an issue, eventually a law

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Speaker 2: was introduced specifically making room for sex arrangements at criminal offense.

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Speaker 1: Was it called the Elief Flynn law.

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Speaker 2: It was not called the Ellif Flyn law, but maybe

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Speaker 2: I should campaign for that sort of sounds like I'm

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Speaker 2: a perpetrators, so maybe not, actually no, yeah, maybe you

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Speaker 2: don't want Yeah. I think more broadly, I feel really

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Speaker 2: really proud to have been able to give a voice

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Speaker 2: to people who may not be heard otherwise, and I

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Speaker 2: think getting that out to a broad audience and they're

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Speaker 2: being impact as a result of it is something that

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Speaker 2: I'll always feel really really proud of.

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Speaker 1: A lot of your work has looked at issues like

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Speaker 1: in that series and in our series about women and

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Speaker 1: power and sex. Why do you think you're drawn to

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Speaker 1: those issues in particular?

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Speaker 2: I think unfortunately, those issues are just so prevalent, and

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Speaker 2: it just feels like they come up time and time again,

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Speaker 2: and I feel like, no matter how much journalists like

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Speaker 2: me or organizations like the ones that we've heard from

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Speaker 2: in this series kind of bang the drama and do

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Speaker 2: what they can to try and change things, there is

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Speaker 2: a cultural problem. I think that means that violence against

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Speaker 2: women and girls all over the world is a huge,

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Speaker 2: huge problem, and so these stories are happening everywhere, all

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Speaker 2: over the world all the time, and I've just always

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Speaker 2: felt like it's really important to try and highlight that.

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Speaker 1: I know you've also looked at the rise of Only Fans,

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Speaker 1: a site that made it possible for so many people

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Speaker 1: to enter the sex industry and create content and make

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Speaker 1: money from their home. Can you tell me about that work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I did a documentary in twenty nineteen looking

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Speaker 2: into this relatively new platform that people didn't really know

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Speaker 2: very much about called OnlyFans, and it was just before

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Speaker 2: the pandemic, which was when Only Fans really really blew up,

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Speaker 2: and it was this sort of quite new, unique thing,

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Speaker 2: but people were making insane amounts of money on it,

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Speaker 2: and I mean that was initially what we wanted to

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Speaker 2: look into, was sort of like, what is this thing?

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Speaker 2: How much money are people actually making and is that

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Speaker 2: true across the board? And what we found in our

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Speaker 2: documentary is that, yes, it is possible to make a

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Speaker 2: huge amount of money on OnlyFans for a very very

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Speaker 2: few number of models, and actually the vast majority of

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Speaker 2: people who start using OnlyFans make very little money, you know,

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Speaker 2: don't make ends meet with it at all. And so

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Speaker 2: then you're looking at all of these other kind of

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Speaker 2: streams of thing come and that's partly what we look

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Speaker 2: into in this series is sort of the opportunities that

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Speaker 2: then come to people in that world, and the exploitation

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Speaker 2: that comes with those supposed opportunities. It's a really, really

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Speaker 2: taboo subjet. I think people don't want to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: I think people have a lot of judgment for the

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Speaker 2: people who use only fans, particularly women who use only fans.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of shame attached to it,

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Speaker 2: and I've always wanted to destigmatize that while also being

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Speaker 2: realistic about the pitfalls, and I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: the women in this series have been realistic about the

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Speaker 2: pitfalls of only fans.

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Speaker 3: Of the sex industry.

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Speaker 2: It is rife with exploitation, and I don't think we

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Speaker 2: should shy away from that, but I think we do

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Speaker 2: need to change the narrative where the women who are

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Speaker 2: in this industry aren't being shamed for being a part

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it was your history of reporting on

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Speaker 1: the sex industry and women in the industry that meant

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Speaker 1: that the women at the heart of our series, The

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Speaker 1: Bunny Trap contacted you.

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Speaker 3: I think so.

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Speaker 2: I think there is understandably quite a lot of distrust

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Speaker 2: of the media among sex workers, among women who use OnlyFans,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's understandable when you look at some

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Speaker 2: of the reporting that's been done. But I think the

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Speaker 2: documentary that we made back in twenty nineteen tried really

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Speaker 2: hard to make it without judgment and without stigma, and

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Speaker 2: was just you know, looking into what only fans is

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Speaker 2: when it works, when it doesn't, what are the issues?

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Speaker 3: What should we be aware of?

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Speaker 2: And I think that gave me a level of credibility,

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Speaker 2: and I think that it enabled the people that I

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Speaker 2: then came to meet in this series to trust me.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember what was going through your mind when

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Speaker 1: you first open the email from the UK models at

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Speaker 1: the hand of this story.

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Speaker 2: I think any tip or story you get, you approach

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Speaker 2: with a level of cynicism because you have to, because

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Speaker 2: I get so many stories that aren't stories or our

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Speaker 2: opinions or just have no evidence behind them. So there's

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Speaker 2: never a moment of like, oh my god, because you

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Speaker 2: can't allow yourself as an investive journalist to have that moment,

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Speaker 2: because you have to say, Okay, well this sounds interesting,

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Speaker 2: but where's the evidence, Like where do I go from here?

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Speaker 2: I remember reading it and thinking, God, this sounds awful.

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Speaker 2: If it's true, it's quite shocking, and I went off,

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Speaker 2: and I looked up Luis Gomez and the first thing

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Speaker 2: I saw was all of these Playboy covers posted on

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Speaker 2: his Instagram, Playboy cover after Playboy cover after Playboy cover.

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Speaker 2: So instantly I was like, well, this looks kind of legit,

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Speaker 2: and that was kind of what set me off. I

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Speaker 2: was like, well, he does appear to be working for

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Speaker 2: Playboy on the surface. They say they've got models, they

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Speaker 2: say they've got screenshots, they say they've got conversations. I

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Speaker 2: was like, right, okay, let's see what you've got. And

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Speaker 2: you know, next thing you know, I've been sent a

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Speaker 2: trove of evidence from the models.

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Speaker 1: One of the things we cover in The Bunny Trap

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Speaker 1: is that, to the best of your knowledge, you're the

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Speaker 1: only journalists that responded to their call out. Why do

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Speaker 1: you think that happened? Why do you think other journalists

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Speaker 1: didn't also follow this lead.

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Speaker 3: I don't know for sure.

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Speaker 2: I know how many tips day a news desk gets,

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Speaker 2: and you know, there's a world where it just happened

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Speaker 2: to get lost by all of them. And I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure that does happen all the time,

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Speaker 2: but a big part of me questions if it's because

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Speaker 2: of the world that these women work in. That is

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Speaker 2: something I've always wondered, you know, if they worked in

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Speaker 2: a different industry, almost any other industry, and this person

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Speaker 2: seemed to have the level of power and credibility that

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Speaker 2: Luis seemed to have on the surface, would it have

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Speaker 2: been at least looked into. And I think that's what

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Speaker 2: I found really shocking is that it wasn't even looked into.

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Speaker 2: There wasn't even an initial conversation or a request for

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Speaker 2: the evidence.

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Speaker 3: It just never got picked up.

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Speaker 2: It never got responded to, not even a cursory look

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Speaker 2: as far as I'm aware.

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Speaker 1: So in the last episode, we looked at how we

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Speaker 1: can best care for contributors who were interviewing about sexual abuse.

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Speaker 1: But it's also tough on you, as the reporter and

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Speaker 1: interviewer to kind of keep asking people questions about something

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Speaker 1: which is inherently difficult and often traumatic. How do you

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Speaker 1: look after yourself when you're investigating a series with heavy

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Speaker 1: subject matter like this one.

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Speaker 2: I think I am quite good at compartmentalizing almost where

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Speaker 2: I'm able to separate myself from the things that I'm investigating.

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Speaker 2: I think that a journalist's role is to give people

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Speaker 2: space to tell their stories and to ask questions that

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Speaker 2: enable those stories to get out to the public. When

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Speaker 2: I'm doing an interview, I really try not to make

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Speaker 2: it about me. I try and ask questions that just

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Speaker 2: give the person I'm interviewing space to tell me how

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Speaker 2: they feel, tell me their experiences, and tell me what's

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Speaker 2: happened in a way that they feel comfortable doing. And

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Speaker 2: my role is to ask those questions. I just always

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Speaker 2: remind myself that it is not about me. I've got

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Speaker 2: a job to do that. My job is to get

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Speaker 2: the facts, check the facts, listen to someone, give them

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Speaker 2: space to tell their story and get their story out

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Speaker 2: to the public. And so I'm quite pragmatic about it,

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Speaker 2: and I think that helps take the emotion out slightly

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Speaker 2: on my end.

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Speaker 1: If there is emotion and I know there have been

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Speaker 1: things as part of this investigation which have been upsetting,

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Speaker 1: does that sometimes help motivate you to keep doing the job.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 2: And it's always kind of actually after the interviews or

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Speaker 2: it's more about how those stories are then going to

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Speaker 2: be represented or told. Like I think I've I find

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Speaker 2: myself becoming a lot more emotionally invested in the process.

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Speaker 2: After an interview than I do when I'm there in

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Speaker 2: that moment speaking to someone, because it's so important to

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Speaker 2: get it right, and I really want to be responsible

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Speaker 2: with my journalism, and that can sometimes feel like a

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Speaker 2: heavy burden because it's important. And then I think that

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Speaker 2: that emotion definitely becomes a driving force in terms of

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Speaker 2: the stories that I'm investigating, the things I want to expose,

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Speaker 2: the stories I want to tell, but also in trying

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Speaker 2: as much as I can to make sure that I

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Speaker 2: get it right when it comes to putting these things

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Speaker 2: out in the world.

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Speaker 1: In an interview, I totally hear what you're saying about

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Speaker 1: it not being about you, But there are moments in

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Speaker 1: this series where you're being a very real human person

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Speaker 1: when someone that you're speaking to is crying. I guess

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Speaker 1: I wonder what that's like for you, Ellie the human

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Speaker 1: being and then Ellie the investigative journalist, and whether those

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Speaker 1: things are in conflict or sometimes work together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they always work together. Of course, if

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Speaker 2: you're in a room and someone is visibly upset and

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Speaker 2: crying like it's I think impossible not to be affected

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Speaker 2: by that or to not feel like you want to

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Speaker 2: give them a hug or you want to, and you know,

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Speaker 2: often what I'll do is I'll say, let's just like

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Speaker 2: turn this off for a second, as have a moment

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Speaker 2: to take a breather, Let's not ask any more questions.

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Speaker 2: Give someone the time to kind of gather themselves until

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Speaker 2: they feel ready to speak again. And it's in those

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Speaker 2: moments that I sort of turn off my journalism, I

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Speaker 2: suppose I and I will just be there to sort

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Speaker 2: of make sure they're okay and try and support them.

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Speaker 2: And I think that that works hand in hand with

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Speaker 2: being a good investigative journalist, because, especially if the stories

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Speaker 2: you're investigating have a human element, you have to be

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Speaker 2: a human to be able to tell them effectively.

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Speaker 1: What do you think are the qualities that makes a

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Speaker 1: good invasicative journalist?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny because I think actually the qualities that

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Speaker 2: I think make a good investigative journalist are not always

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Speaker 2: the qualities that you would associate with it. I think

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Speaker 2: probably if you'd asked me years ago, I'd have thought

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Speaker 2: it would need to be someone who's, you know, really

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Speaker 2: really organized, and then all the things that I am,

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Speaker 2: in all honesty, I have to work really really hard

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Speaker 2: to make sure that I am organized but what I

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Speaker 2: am is tenacious, I guess, and I don't let things go,

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Speaker 2: and I will keep going and keep going and keep

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Speaker 2: going until I get to the bottom of something. And

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Speaker 2: you know, the other aspect of it is that I

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Speaker 2: think I do have a motive human side, which I

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Speaker 2: bring into all of my investigations. And I think especially

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Speaker 2: because the things that I investigate tend to be issues

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Speaker 2: that affect women or you know that they look at

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Speaker 2: social injustices, and so I think the driving force for

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Speaker 2: those kind of investigations always has to come from a

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Speaker 2: place of realizing that it's really important and wanting change.

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Speaker 2: It's not all about kind of like putting complex data

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Speaker 2: into a spreadsheet and trying to get to the bottom

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Speaker 2: of it. And there are brilliant investative journalists who do

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, but it's not my bag.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the lessons that you'll take away

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Speaker 1: from working on this story.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the struggles that we had in

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Speaker 2: making this was knowing when to keep your cards close

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Speaker 2: to your chest and when to reach out for more information.

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Speaker 2: And that's always a dance that you have to do

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Speaker 2: when you're looking into something, because you need contacts for

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Speaker 2: information and you need to reach out to people and

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Speaker 2: see what they know and see if you can get

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Speaker 2: any intelligence on whatever you're looking into. And that's a

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Speaker 2: really important part of being a journalist. On the flip side,

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Speaker 2: when you are doing an investigation like this and it

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Speaker 2: is very sensitive and there is risk involved, you also

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Speaker 2: want to keep your cards very close to your chest,

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Speaker 2: and so you don't necessarily want that person to know

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Speaker 2: who you are or what you're doing. And I think

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Speaker 2: that was something that was always a struggle. And I

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Speaker 2: think knowing when to reach out to people and when

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Speaker 2: to keep quiet is really difficult. And I think that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's something that I will I'll always come up against

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Speaker 2: and that I think I'll probably learn from in this.

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Speaker 1: I know you've worked in TV as well as audio podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Is there something you think that makes this story more

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Speaker 1: fitting for audio.

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Speaker 2: I think the complexity of it makes it more fitting

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Speaker 2: to audio. I think that it gives us the space

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Speaker 2: to really dig into some of those thorny issues, for example,

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Speaker 2: around exactly what Luis's connection is to Playboy. And I

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Speaker 2: think that if you're making a one hour documentary, you

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Speaker 2: just don't have the space to really really dig into

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Speaker 2: those things.

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Speaker 3: This is really complicated.

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Speaker 2: This world is complicated, so I think that that complexity

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Speaker 2: lent itself to audio, and I think people feel that

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Speaker 2: it's easier to talk and to open up and to

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Speaker 2: share their stories when there's not a camera. Think think

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Speaker 2: the contributors sometimes felt quite relieved that it was audio.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's something people often use the word

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Speaker 1: intimate about audio, and I think going into a room

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Speaker 1: where we're just hearing you speaking to a woman about

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Speaker 1: what happened, like, I think that really brings the listener

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Speaker 1: with us into that space in a way that I

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Speaker 1: love about audio and podcasts. Yeah, the Vanni Trap is

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Speaker 1: finally out in the world, which we're also excited by.

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Speaker 1: What are you hoping that listeners to this series take

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Speaker 1: away from it?

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Speaker 2: I'm hoping that listeners have a bit more understanding and

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Speaker 2: compassion for people who work in the sex industry. I

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Speaker 2: want to challenge the misconception that if you work in

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Speaker 2: this industry and if you go into that room to

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Speaker 2: do whatever it is you're planning to do with whoever

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Speaker 2: it is that you're going to be in there with,

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Speaker 2: that that in some way opens you up to whatever

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Speaker 2: can had happened Because that's just not true. Consent is

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Speaker 2: always important, and you might be consenting to doing some

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Speaker 2: things that are sexually explicit, some things, you know, sexual acts,

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Speaker 2: maybe even sometimes, but if you were drawing a line

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Speaker 2: somewhere and you were saying, I don't want to go

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Speaker 2: any further than this, than that line should always be respected.

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Speaker 2: And just because whatever you were doing up until that

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Speaker 2: line may have been provocative or sexual in some way,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't make the line any more blurred. And I

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Speaker 2: think that that's really at the heart of this and

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Speaker 2: that is I think the most important thing for people

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Speaker 2: to take away from this series. Like, this series is

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Speaker 2: nuanced and complicated, but that part of it shouldn't be.

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Speaker 1: And what about the women at the heart of this story?

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Speaker 1: What are you hoping that they take away from listening

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Speaker 1: to this series.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's been a long, long road.

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Speaker 2: I guess I hope that they heard, and I guess

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Speaker 2: I hope that they feel this is some sort of justice.

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Speaker 2: I think that they're just relieved that it's out, and

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Speaker 2: I hope they know how much at work went into

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Speaker 2: getting it out there and how important this story was

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Speaker 2: to me as well on a personal level. It's always

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Speaker 2: been really important, so I hope that they know that.

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Speaker 1: Well, Ellie, thank you so much for putting up with

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Speaker 1: being on the other side of the night today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah it's weird. Well I didn't grill you, so yeah,

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Speaker 3: no hard questions.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us for the second bonus episode of

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Speaker 2: The Bunny Trap. We've got one more bonus episode for you.

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Speaker 2: Next time, you'll hear some trade secrets from a mother

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Speaker 2: daughter duo who both worked as Playboy photographers. They tell

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Speaker 2: us the secret to a good glamour sheet and what

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Speaker 2: shooting for Playboy was like in its heyday. Hint it

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Speaker 2: might have involved some passying at the Playboy mansion. We

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Speaker 2: contacted Luis Gomez multiple times for comment, but we never

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Speaker 2: heard back. He has not been charged with any crimes

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Speaker 2: and is presumed innocent under the law. We also sought

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Speaker 2: comment from Playboy USA. They declined our requests for an interview,

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Speaker 2: but stated that they asked their licensees to blacklist the

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Speaker 2: photographer mentioned in this series and that they prohibit paid

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Speaker 2: to play the practice of charging models to appear in magazines.

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Speaker 2: The Bunny Trap is produced by Novel. For more from Novel,

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Speaker 2: visit Novel the audio. The show is hosted by me

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Speaker 2: Ellie Flynn. You can find me on social media by

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Speaker 2: searching my name. That's Ellie E double l I E

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Speaker 2: Flynn fly double N. This series is produced by Eleanor

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Speaker 2: Biggs and this episode is produced by Amalia Sortland, additional

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Speaker 2: production from Lee Meyer and Saskia Collette. The editors are

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Speaker 2: Georgia Moody and Austin Mitchell are executive producers and Max

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Speaker 2: O'Brien and Craig Strachan. Production management from Scherie Houston and

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Speaker 2: Charlotte Wolf. Sound design, mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempson

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Speaker 2: and Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Eleanor Biggs

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Speaker 2: and Max O'Brien.

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Speaker 3: Original music composed.

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Speaker 2: And performed by Jake Long and additional production by Nicholas Alexander,

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Speaker 2: Louisa Gerstein and Daniel Kempson. The series artwork was designed

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Speaker 2: by Christina Limcole Willard Foxtons, Creative Director of Development

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Speaker 1: Novel