WEBVTT - On Our Best Behavior with Elise Loehnen 0:00:01.040 --> 0:00:02.040 Hello, Catherine. 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:05.000 Hi Chelsea, you were telling me you added some second 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:05.920 shows in some cities. 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:06.720 What do you have going on? 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:10.080 Okay, guys, I have added more second shows to my 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:14.160 Little Big Bitch tour. I added second shows in Hollywood 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.040 at the Pantagious. I am going to be there two 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:21.080 nights October twelfth and thirteenth. I added another show at 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:25.239 the Chicago Theater October twenty seventh and October twenty eighth, 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:27.920 one of my favorite places to perform. I added another 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.080 show in Portland, so I'll be there November second and third. 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.680 And I added a second show in Boston at the 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.200 Weighing Center, so I will be there November sixteenth and seventeenth. 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.959 I also have two shows in Seattle, San Francisco, New 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:45.160 York at the Beacon and Washington, d C. I will 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:49.280 be there October fifth and sixth. And a special shout 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:54.120 out to Phoenix, Arizona, where I'm coming Saturday, October fourteenth. 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:58.319 And then I'm coming to Cleveland Columbus in Pittsburgh, So 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:00.720 suck on that, you guys. I can't wait to set everybody. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.920 Oh and I'm coming to Eugene, Oregon too, everybody. That's 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:08.360 November ninth, twenty twenty three, and I will be at 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.120 the Clubhouse in East Hampton, which is going to be 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.640 a very intimate show on Saturday, August twenty sixth, So 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:18.080 if you are in the Long Island area, that's where. 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.360 I'll be awesome. Well, we have a great guest today 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.240 and she talks all about women and the patriarchy and 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:25.440 it's very exciting. 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:27.680 But I have a question for you. 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:29.959 You've talked about how you know your mom and your 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:34.199 sisters were big influences in your life. But I'm curious, 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.559 who are some other powerful women in your life, either 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:41.120 growing up or early on, and what did they teach you? 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:43.479 I mean, I guess I would start with my third 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.480 grade teacher, missus Sheckman. She was a big influence on 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:48.400 me because she loved me and she just showed me 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:52.240 such like maternal love. And I went and stayed with 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.200 her a couple times at her beach house with her husband, 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:57.520 and my mom loved them, and she just really took 0:01:57.520 --> 0:01:59.920 me under her wing. I think she sensed how to 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.960 neglected I was, and she must have felt for me, 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.240 and she was just so sweet. I still talk to her. 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:07.600 I talked to her. I haven't talked to her in 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:09.639 a few months, but she calls me every once in 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:11.920 a while and she's just she lives in Florida, and 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:14.760 she just extended love to me and tenderness, and I 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:18.000 really that made an impact on me to extend love 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:20.880 and tenderness to others who or who who I could 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.000 see were neglected. Yeah, so I and my mom was 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:26.800 very much like that. My mom was very sweet to 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.560 people when she knew they had issues or even my 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:34.400 girlfriend growing up was really in a bad home situation, 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:38.120 and my mom sensed it always told her she loved her, 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.359 because my friend's parents had never told her that they 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.600 loved her, And so that was nice. But as far 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.440 as powerful women like, I don't know that anyone I 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.920 looked up to like the lessons I learned were powerful. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.200 I think I I wanted to always be powerful because 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.880 I didn't feel like enough women were in my life 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.160 were powerful, and it made me, just as by instinct, 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.680 want to be more than what I was seeing, Like 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.200 I was like, this isn't good enough. Why does? Why 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:12.760 are all like I want to be like a boss 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:15.720 bitch from a young age. And it's not even that 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:18.720 I wanted to be. I just inherently was it was 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:20.960 in your nature, Like I just wanted to be in 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.760 control of my own destiny, not reliant on anybody. And 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.200 I think that's the always been the theme in my 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:30.520 own experience, is that I'm dependable. That's all I wanted 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.000 to do, because I saw so many people in my 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.600 life that were not dependable. In my mind, however, I 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.520 interpreted my brother dying, my mom not picking me up 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.560 from school, blah blah blah, I wanted to be dependable, 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.120 and so growing up that was always like, I wanted 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:45.600 to be the friend. If you call me, I will 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:47.280 be there. If you need me, I will be there. 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:50.680 You know you can always count on me. And that 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:56.760 was more than the idea of power or looking to 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.240 someone who you know, in a powerful position. I just 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:00.560 wanted to be a soft person. 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.280 Yeah, it's interesting because you it sounds like you grew 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:07.280 up knowing you wanted to be independent, but also be 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:08.960 someone others could depend on. 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:15.920 Well, excuse me while I burb well, said Catherine. Great, Yes, 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.840 that's it, that's exactly right. And what about you? Who 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:20.600 did you look up to? 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:23.760 I was really lucky where I grew up with a 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:26.760 really great mom who sort of like brought in all 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:29.120 kinds of other people. Like so many people in my 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.600 life are are like your mom is like my mom, 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:35.359 you know, like she's she's adopted everyone around her. But 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:37.440 I also feel like I had so many other like 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.240 friends moms who were like a second mom to me. 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.239 My best friend's mom always was like fun to talk 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:48.880 to and interesting and like really wonderful and always had 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.880 this like a bubbly charismatic energy and cared what us 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:54.200 kids had to say. 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:55.960 You know, yeah, yeah, I. 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.240 Think that's such an important quality. 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:02.200 Is just like listening and being interested, and she always 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:03.320 was that for sure. 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:06.760 Yeah. I remember I had an uncle growing up, and 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:09.240 he was always interested in everything with the kids had 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:10.719 to say. Like I remember loving going over to his 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:12.839 house because he would spend time with me and be like, Okay, 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:14.360 tell me what you think about this. And I was 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:15.960 such a young girl and I got so much attention 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:19.400 from him. And then last summer, we were all at 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.320 our family vacation on Martha's Vineyard and some of our 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:25.320 cousins came over and then they told us that that 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.000 uncle had so many affairs growing up with all of 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:30.799 his girlfriends. I was like, oh, he was probably hitting 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:36.240 on me, so I was like, well, you just blew 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:42.040 that whole fucking memory that I had anyway, So well, okay. 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:44.840 So our guest today is the host of the podcast 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.520 Pulling the Thread, an author of On Our Best Behavior, 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:52.840 Elise Lonein. Hi, Elise, look who's here today? Hello? 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:55.760 This is exciting for me, you know, I love you. 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.640 Oh, thank you, honey. And this is Catherine, my producer. Hello, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.920 and we are here to celebrate the launch of I 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:04.640 don't know why I'm holding this up like I'm Oprah 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:06.920 Winfrey because I don't have the studio owns, but I 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.240 guess I'm holding it up for Catherine, who's also read it. 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:11.760 Your new book which is called On Our Best Behavior, 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:14.839 The Seven Deadly Sins and The Price Women Pay to 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:20.320 Be Good, which is a very important book for every 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:24.000 woman and man to be reading. So that took me 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.800 a while because it's a heavy book, Like there's a 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.120 lot of information in there and a lot of history. 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:31.440 I think you do a good job of really kind 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.880 of bringing it back to yourself a lot, and the 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:36.800 ways that it's kind of imprinted itself in you and 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.040 your experiences in this world. And I think all women 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.240 should have to understand or should want to gain, I 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.799 guess a better understanding of where all of these ideas 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.719 that we have about our responsibilities in society came from 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:56.040 and how many millennia they have been making their mark 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:58.640 on us. Yeah, And what we are able to do 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:00.800 as women to kind of take our our own agency 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:04.800 back and stop the art of performing for others, Yes, 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:09.760 while also remaining true to who you are in the 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.040 idea that by doing that it even gives yourself more 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.520 room to give. Like, when we take care of ourselves, 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:18.600 we are able to take care of others in a 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.880 more impactful way. And if that's what we're trying to 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.120 do in the first place, is take care of everybody, 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:25.920 then we should really start with ourselves. 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.040 Can you just do my book tour for meat? 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.440 Yeah, no problem. Yeah, I just need a ton of 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.040 wee to constantly talk about the same thing. That's how 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.520 I make things exciting. Is I just add weed to it. 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:37.880 I'm like, okay, I can talk about this again, because 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.760 the book tour becomes very monotonous too. I know you 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.520 have to repeat yourself a little, So talk to me 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.560 and talk to us about your impetus for writing this 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:48.440 book and tell us a little bit about all of 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.679 your research and history. 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.320 Well, unsurprisingly, you may know this about me, but I 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:57.920 am a good girl. I have spent my life achieving 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.920 and trying to be the best at everything and every 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.560 sphere of my life. And I hit a point several 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:10.920 years ago where I have a recurring panic disorder. I 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:16.320 have a chronic hyperventilator and I hyperventilated for more than 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:20.600 a month and just hit a wall of trying to 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:25.040 understand what it was in me that was driving me 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:30.680 to try to reach some invisible finish line where I 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:35.319 would have safety and security and be loved and be enough. 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:40.520 And I recognized, despite everything that I had achieved and 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.320 how much I had done for other people, my family, 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:47.840 my coworkers, that I was only driving myself deeper into 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:51.320 a hole. I was the farthest I'd ever felt from 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:55.959 emotionally free or comfortable, and so I knew I needed 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.920 to address this, whatever it was in me, these invisible 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:03.720 voices that were telling me that I was bad, that 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.960 I wasn't enough, And that sort of began the journey 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:11.600 of what would it look like to actually turn and 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:14.640 face this rather than trying to continue to outrun it 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:20.400 and In that process, I came across this code of 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:26.080 goodness that is so obvious it's invisible, I think, to 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:29.640 all of us, and this punch card of goodness that 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:34.840 women specifically try to fulfill in our culture. Regardless of 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.160 whether you're raised in any religion or know anything about religion, 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.840 these are cultural rules at this point, and if you 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:48.240 actually don't achieve them, you deny them sloth, pride, envy, gluttony, greed. 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.120 Because we're treating they're so bad right to practice any 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:51.800 of these things. 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.640 Yes, that I recognized in that all the ways that 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.920 I was policing myself and sadly policing other women. 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:00.679 M hm. 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:03.400 Yes, that very much struck a chord with me. When 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.480 you're talking about the judgment we have, I'm a very 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:07.760 judgmental person, so I struggle with this a lot because 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:09.800 I'm always trying to just go at everybody with love 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:12.520 and no judgment. But I'm so opinionated. So it's just 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:15.120 a fucking pain in the ass. But it's not fair 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.520 to judge everybody. It's not fuch fair to judge anybody. 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:19.680 You're supposed to be looking at people with sympathy and 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.280 compassion and empathy and no judgment. I mean, I can't 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:24.439 wait till one day feel that, you know for more 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:26.920 than a couple of fleeting seconds. So talk to me. 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.120 How you recognize that in yourself? 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:33.320 Yeah? Well, the big question that I feel like I've 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.840 been circling for most of my adult life, definitely since 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:41.400 twenty sixteen and the election, is why do women have 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:43.960 so much trouble getting on side with each other? What 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:49.360 is it in us that makes us so it feels instinctual. 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:51.360 I don't think it's instinctual. I think it's culture. But 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:53.679 why do we slap each other down? And why is 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:58.560 it so acceptable to dismiss each other with comments like 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:01.840 I just don't like her, or who does she think 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:06.160 she is? Or she's too big for her breches? And 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:10.880 these are all cultural refrains we've said, we've heard, most 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.400 likely we haven't interrupted them in ourselves and in conversation 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.200 with each other. And I really wanted to understand that 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:22.040 in myself. Why did I have that reaction to specific women, 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:25.760 not all women? And what I realized I sort of 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.679 started with envy. It's a gateway drug. I realized that 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.440 those women that were bothering me were women who were 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:35.160 pushing on a dream I had for myself and they 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.720 had something. It was envy, They had something that I 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.800 wanted for myself, and I just couldn't actually admit my 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:47.560 own wanting or acknowledge it. And I think we're all 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.640 conditioned to suppress it. It comes up, and we suppress 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.760 that wanting and we just attack. That's what I think 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:54.360 is happening. 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:58.720 Yes, I think that's a great way to describe it, 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.319 because you can, I mean, anyone listening to this can 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:03.640 relate to feeling envious of another person and then what 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:05.960 those feelings bring up for you or that you're supposed 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:07.920 to shove them away, And it's like that's actually part 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.120 of your psyche or you can call it your shadow 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.040 self or whatever you want to refer to it as. 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.640 But those are natural thoughts that have that happen, and 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.160 it's your job to put them in the right compartment, 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:19.640 you know, not to act on them, not to behave 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.040 in a jealous way or behave in an envious way, 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:24.319 but to acknowledge I mean, or you can. I mean, 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:25.840 it's really up to how you want to play this 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.600 game of life. It is like, how do you want 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:32.760 to operate within all of these dynamics and self agency 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.720 and self respect allow you to acknowledge that you even 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:39.680 have those feelings and they're not the most powerful feeling. Yes, 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:42.079 or what that feeling leads to, which is a truth 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:44.360 that you're not willing yet to admit to yourself. Yes, 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:45.559 which is I want that. 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:50.160 One thousand percent. It's full of really essential information. I 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.360 think that our envy is our soul knocking on a 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:57.080 door asking us to pay attention to what we want. 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:02.319 And in our culture, unfortunately, women have been conditioned to 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:05.600 subjugate what we want to other people's needs. It's just 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.880 being a woman, one a one. We don't have great 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:15.480 models culturally of identifying what you want and then going 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:20.679 after it, and there aren't that many women also culturally. 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.040 I'm sure it can relate to this, and I write 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.360 about this in the chapter on pride. We don't have 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:28.680 very many examples of highly visible women, women who have 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:33.319 dared to be seen, women who are really living their dream, 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:38.840 who have managed to escape cultural destruction. Right like so 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:46.960 many women, business leaders, athletes, actresses, singers follow this trajectory 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:51.240 where we love them when they're coming out, we applaud them, 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.800 we celebrate them. They reach a certain pinnacle and then 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:57.959 we destroy them, and we can say that those people 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.160 have nothing to do with us, like people like you 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.360 and me, Catherine. We can say, oh that we can 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.120 get a little hit of schadenfreude or just find it 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:11.240 kind of entertaining. But the reality is that lives in 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.800 us too. It lives in all young girls. This is 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.360 a playbook. This is what happens to women, and when 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:23.800 we celebrate it, we're inhibiting ourselves from being seen too. 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.040 It has really really deep implications I think for all women. 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.280 Yes, it's something that it would be nice to have 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.560 a language for young little girls, you know, and boys, 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:38.680 everybody really, because who doesn't get envious of another person's accomplishments. 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.920 But there's this dismantling that needs to be done about 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.080 the way that we're taught about those feelings and all 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.480 the seven deadly sins that we're not supposed to feel. 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:48.920 I mean it, basically, your book speaks to the fact 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.240 that patriarchy was invented with religion. You're not saying that, 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.320 but that's what I'm saying. That's where all of everything 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:57.720 started to get murky. And even in this book, I 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.280 read Short History on Humanity, a few weeks ago, and 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:04.040 that goes back to like two million years ago, and 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:08.080 it goes back to when civilization began and the migration pattern, 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:11.800 and it starts to understand when women became property because 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.240 of burial sites like you can see that there was 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.720 a change in civilization and when it's what started out 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.400 equally ended up being they ended up being subjugated, and 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.280 that was definitely because of religion. 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:25.800 Yeah. Well, and I would say I'd take that one 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.280 step farther and say, you have sort of the Hamarabi's code. 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:34.960 This for early patriarchal ideology, which was all about destroying women, 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.920 like drowning women and penalizing men slightly with like a 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.480 slap in the hand. And then you when your hand job, yeah, 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:47.240 or hand job if you really transfer the penal code exactly. 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:52.280 But then with Judeo Christian religion in Rome just really 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.960 taking over, you see this moralizing that comes into it 0:15:56.000 --> 0:16:00.000 as well. So it's not just about oppressive dominance, subjec 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.560 subjucation of women. It's about you are bad and base 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.200 and maybe you'll make it to heaven if you spend 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:08.800 your life trying to prove your goodness. 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:13.440 Well, interestingly enough, there's also evidence to show or direct 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.520 you to the idea that this is one stage of 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.720 civilization and then so it started out with patriarchy, then 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.840 went to patriarchy, and then the next stage it could 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.440 be some conjecture, will be androgeny. 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.400 Yes, isn't that I love this idea. 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:31.080 I also love this idea. 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.440 Yeah, And I feel like that's what the contemporary trans 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:38.560 movement is moving us toward, this idea of transcending gender 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:44.440 and gender identities and living balanced between energies the masculine 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:49.200 and the feminine. Regardless of gender, we all have both energies. 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.560 I think women can really identify with this. The masculine 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:58.480 being order, structure, truth, when you're directing, when you're organizing, 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:03.800 when you're making stuff happen. The feminine is nurturance, care, creativity, 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:10.800 and men have feminine energy and desperately need to be 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.959 living that in their lives fully in the creative, nurturance 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:18.040 carrying component of self. And so I think with the 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:21.680 trans movement, we're seeing like it doesn't matter what your 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:26.600 body parts are, these are universal human values and it 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:30.160 is incumbent on all of us to be balanced in both. 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.919 And imagine the lack of gender discrimination when there is 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:38.280 no gender Yeah, like hello, that's what we need to like. 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:42.639 I mean, there's so many advantages to understanding this movement 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.399 and learning about this movement instead of rejecting it. Because 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:47.480 if you only think there's a boy and a girl, 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.960 which is so dumb, in certain places in the world 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:53.960 they already have a third sex. Yes, so that makes sense. 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.560 And knowing that everything is a spectrum also, I think 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.439 it's really fascinating to understand that and how you know 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.639 our conditioning and what you're supposed to do. Even with 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.320 the little decisions in our lives every single day and 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.760 the minutia, we do what everybody else is doing most 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.240 of the time without having our own original ideas or 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.719 thoughts about counteracting that kind of behavior or making a 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.800 decision not based on what other people made their decision 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:20.440 on yes. 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:20.879 No. 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.080 And I think like you, for example, to me, are 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:26.720 sort of a post hratriarchal person, and you're an incredibly 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:31.879 good interrupter of this programming that runs in US. I 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.840 feel like you have an ability to sort of stop 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.280 it and question it and evaluate it and then take 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.400 it or leave it in a way that I think 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.560 the rest of us need to develop this ability to 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:45.960 sort of say, is this what's running me? Is this me? 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:50.040 Or is this just some sort of conditioning that is 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:54.040 informing my behavior? And if we could do that and 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:58.639 get closer to ourselves and say, yes, I'm a woman 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:00.880 and I'm a mother or in your not a mother, 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:05.760 that doesn't mean that I am that that identity defines me, 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.679 that I am only those things. You know, we have 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:12.359 a lot of trouble with sort of the complexity. We 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:17.840 really want women to be only caring and nurturing and 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.439 men to only be this and it's a cage. 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:24.480 It's a terrible cage. 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:27.920 What were you saying, Catherine, You were saying something about 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:29.320 our book before when we were talking. 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.600 Yeah, I was telling Chelsea, you know one of the 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:36.760 most meaningful parts of your book was that first introductory 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:41.400 portion where you're talking about the history of where patriarchy 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:46.040 comes from, having grown up very religious and basically going 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.760 to church seven days a week between. 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.520 School, and so sorry about that. Is it's you? Thank you. 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:53.960 I've been spending the last couple of years sort of 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.800 dismantling a lot of this stuff and being able to 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.720 see where this stuff comes from. You know that Mary 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:02.960 magg Delane was you know, called a prostitute, even though 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.359 that was like maybe not not what was going on. 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.480 It wasn't what was going on right, right. 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:09.920 She was exonerated by the pope a couple of years ago. 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:12.399 But like the damage has already done. But like between 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.320 your book, it's like when you see these things, when 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:18.520 you read these things, your eyes are opened to like, oh, 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:20.840 here's what's these thoughts are coming up in me, and 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.440 they're just it doesn't mean they're true just because they're 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:25.240 coming up. It's because of something I learned when I 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:27.439 was very young that's maybe based on nothing. 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.639 Yes, my friend calls it Bible fanfic. Uh huh. I 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.800 mean the deadly sins weren't in the Bible, and I 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.120 think most people never make that connection. It just these 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:42.080 things are passed down to us, like law, and when 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.359 you actually start to look at and you look at 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:46.560 something like the New Testament, and we could nerd out 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.199 on it, but just the number of mistranslations of the 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:54.520 New Testament are higher than the number of words, and 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:58.639 like some devastating ones, you know, like the Creation of 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:05.080 Virginity was translation from Hebrew to Greek, and Beulah means 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:07.920 young woman. It has nothing to do with sexual state. 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:10.560 That's the original hubut rub has nothing to do with 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:12.760 whether you're married or not. Just means young woman. That 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:20.399 was translated as virgin. Oh nice, thanks for that, it's great. 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.520 Wow. Could you also talk a little bit about I 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.960 know in your book you include sadness, which was originally 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:31.200 one of the seven deadly sins? There were eight. 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:33.280 Can you talk a little bit about that and did 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:34.120 they cut that one? 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:38.040 It just well convenient. So briefly, the history is that 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.679 they were called eight thoughts, as you said, demonic thoughts, 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:44.280 but demon meaning distraction, and they were first written down 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:44.880 by this by. 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.640 The way, at least speaks fluent Latin, so watch your back. 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:53.399