WEBVTT - #291 Jason Flom with Clarence Harrison 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.320 At around six am on October twenty fifth, nineteen eighty six, 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:08.600 and twenty five year old woman was abducted by a 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.280 stranger at a bus stop, assaulted, raped and sodomized, then 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:16.079 dragged at two different locations where the assault continued. The 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:20.760 assailant stole her wristwatch and broke her two front teeth. Miraculously, 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:23.840 the victims survived that a rape kit was performed. However, 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:26.840 in nineteen eighty six, DNA testing was still in its 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:31.760 infancy and erology offered little of probated value. The officer 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.360 who eventually made the arrest approach Clarence Harrison, a man 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.199 who had a previous conviction as an accessory to a 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:40.200 robbery involving a woman at a bus stop. When asked 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:43.000 about the victim, whom he knew from the neighborhood, Clarence 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.120 said that if he heard anything, then he would forward 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:48.640 that information to her family, not the police, an answer 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.320 that seemed to annoy the officer. While fabricating a story 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.960 about a confidential informant having seen Clarence selling the victim's wristwatch, 0:00:56.240 --> 0:01:00.000 that officer included Clarence in a BOTO lineup. The assailant 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:02.920 was a stranger, and the victim knew Clarence, but she 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.880 said that the assailant looked like Clarence. After some time 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:09.800 and perhaps a great deal of pressure, she eventually identified 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.559 Clarence and sealed his faith. With the advert of DNA 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.880 testing and motions filed to finally uncover the truth, came 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:20.119 reports that the ripe could had been destroyed. Along with 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:24.199 it seems Clarence's hope for relief from a life plus 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:28.840 forty years sentence for a crime he simply did not commit. 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:46.160 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today's 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:50.560 story is the story of Clarence Harrison, sentenced to life 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.920 in prison plus forty years. I always wonder about what 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:55.880 those extra forty years are for. Is that if you 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.400 come back to life, you do another forty It's all crazy, 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:02.480 But life plus forty years in Georgia and the state 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.360 of Georgia for a crime you didn't commit, Clarence. Before, 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:08.560 I introduce our other distinguished guest today. First of all, 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:10.919 I just want to say welcome to the show. I'm 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:11.600 glad you're here. 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:13.919 Thank you, Thank you. Van Biden. 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.720 To me and with us is Amy Maxwell. And Amy 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:22.520 is a Senior District Attorney in the Fulton County District 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:27.200 Attorney's Office. But before you jump to conclusions, she's actually 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:31.040 the head of the Fulton County Conviction Integrity Unit and 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:35.120 the former executive director of the Georgia Innocence Project. And 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.400 what a resume that is. Amy, Welcome to Rafel Conviction. 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:40.320 Hi, thanks for having me. 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:44.640 And I read an incredible quote from you, Clarence where 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.720 you had said that, and this is a direct quote. 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:51.120 After a year or so in prison, you get burned out, 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.640 and you fall off into the system, and you lose 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.840 faith and your hope, and you begin to believe you'll 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:58.840 never get out. And that happened to me. 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.639 Well, I had been in there a few years. First 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:05.720 few years, I got strung out on trying to prove 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:08.960 my answer. But I got burnt out and kind of 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:11.960 love faith in the system and God and everything, and 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.720 just thought maybe with life selling twenty and plus twenty, 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:17.560 you know, I was gonna live and die in prison, 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.600 you know. And I tried to, you know, accept that's 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:24.320 where my life gonna be. So I shipped the outside 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.480 world out. I called it it's so called free world, 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.960 and I called the prison life in my life. That 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:32.240 was the real world to me. 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:34.880 It's always amazing to me when when people like you 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.600 were able to come out of that dark spiritual hole 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:39.560 that you were in and how you did it is 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:41.400 an amazing part of the story. We're going to get 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.240 to that, but let's go back to the beginning. So 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.960 you born in Georgia. What was your childhood like. 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.600 I am a pretty decent young man growing up. I 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.840 was a cub scout, a boy scout, you know. But 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.760 as I got older in high school, I started doing 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.760 drinking and gama, so I became a post a gammel 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:04.520 playing cards. I like to play poker, black jack, whatever 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.400 kind of gambler war. I just liked to gammebl sadly say, 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:09.400 I think they come from cause just don't remember I 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:12.080 have with my father who ran a boot leg house, 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:14.680 in a gambler house and got throwed out of school 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.520 because I wasn't doing right in school. Well, I got 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:22.880 married early, just turned eighteen, had two daughters, and my 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.880 first wife she had a daughter, so I had three girls. 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:30.520 That's a lot, especially for somebody at a young age. 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:34.040 And I had my own struggles with gambling and drinking 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.200 as a kid. So I can relate to that, but 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:39.480 I was very lucky to never get into the type 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:43.280 of serious trouble that you got into. From what I understand, 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.360 some of the people you were hanging out with at 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.920 the time got you into even more trouble when when 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.280 you were riding around the car unaware of their intentions, 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.320 and one of them popped out of the car and 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:55.760 robbed a woman at a bus stop there. 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.640 Was in nineteen seventy eight. I didn't commit that crime 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.880 a partner them, did I with him? It's same thing. 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.800 Wait, that's starting to sound like you were wrongfully convicted, 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:07.960 not once but twice. 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:11.360 I ain't gonna say I was Ronald convicted because our 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:15.039 extra with them all I know we were rad Fashion 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:17.479 stopped the car. I said, Fashion, What you stopping the 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.360 cup for? He said, ricksy elite. I said, may y'all 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:23.520 be not being breaking nobody how He said, no, may 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:25.440 no leak there you go back there not a little 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.240 bat Rick stand to partner going there, lady's may y'all 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.280 get that stupid fool. I get out the car, told Rick, 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.960 get it back in the car. You partner going nay thing? 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:36.920 You know? All them turned state and I'm the only 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:37.920 one went to prison. 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.760 I get that you were with them, so technically that 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.080 does make you an accessory. But still you tried to 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.000 stop your friend, maybe even saved that lady's life. I mean, 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.080 there's a case that we made. Then your friends went 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.120 and saved their own asses, turning state's witnesses and putting 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.640 you in prison for almost six years and leaving you 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.040 permanently on the radar of the local police. So now 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.479 we fast forward to nineteen eighty six. You were a 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:04.000 twenty seven year old young man, and this awful crime 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:08.119 happens in DeKalb County, Georgia, also to a young woman 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:10.680 at a bus stop. Amy, can you fill us in 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.120 on the rest of the details, And a warning to 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.440 our audience, this is hard to hear. 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:19.400 It was the morning of October twenty fifth, nineteen eighty six. 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.520 It was really early in the morning, and the woman 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.680 had just gotten a job at Grady Hospital, which was 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.240 the large public hospital here in Fulton County in Atlanta, Georgia, 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.960 and she was standing at the bus stop waiting for 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.159 the bus, and it was dark outside and it was raining. 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:40.599 A man walked across the street, walked past her, turned 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.479 around and She didn't actually see him come up, but 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.520 he came up behind her, grabbed her from the back, 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:50.920 drug her away from the bus stop. He ended up 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:56.680 actually dragging her to three different locations where he assaulted 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:02.000 her repeatedly. It was horrific, probably forty five minutes to 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:07.320 an hour of being constantly abused. He'd abuse her one place, 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.160 he'd drag her someplace else, assault her again. It was 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.400 It was horrible, and he ended up hitting her in 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.160 the face and knocking out some of her front teeth. 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.840 He ends up leaving her. I don't know if he 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.040 thought she was dead or what, but he left her, 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.400 and she's, you know, of course, completely nude. She tries 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.640 to flag down a car. The first car just drives 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.960 right by her, but the second car does stop and 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:34.960 help her. She ends up going into the hospital. They 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.880 took a sexual assault kit, which of course ends up 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:42.440 later being extremely important. And as far as how Clarence 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:48.960 became a suspect, what the police said was that some 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:53.120 confidential informant had told them that Clarence was trying to 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.559 sell a woman's watch, and one of the very few 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:00.600 things that the rapist took from this woman was her watch. 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.800 So the police and court say that's how we got 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.360 to Clarence because Clarence was trying to sell a woman's watch. 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.640 Later we find out that wasn't at all true. The 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.640 police officer actually admitted that he made that whole story. 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.400 Up right, and they and they just decided it was him, right, 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:20.040 the guy who had previously been an accessory of robbing 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.880 a woman at the bus stop. So, Clarence, what were 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:26.880 you up to on the night before and into that morning? 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.120 I was directly cross street from my home at a 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:34.560 friend of mine's house. He ran a boot leg house. Well, 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.080 we'd go over there and buy beer and stuff, and 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.640 we usually play cards overout every weekend. Now playing call 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.640 for a few hours there into the ear of the morning, 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.120 elect to getting daybreak, and I told my heye man said, 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:48.520 if it'd be day Brad gets up in and get 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:50.400 ready to go home. They had to be around about 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.760 five six o'clock in the morning. And that's how walking 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.199 Old Mount and opening the door. And I've seen a 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.640 guy walking the street in the holler ed methad, Hey 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:01.400 what your head? Man? He said? He said, we're going 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.439 to the bus stop. I said, the bus stop, I say, man, 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:06.480 I said, you got a couple out for the bus 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.360 r on man. I said, it's the weekend. If you 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:10.960 want to man, come over there and stand up on 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:13.600 the poet. He said no. He said, I guess I'm 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:16.000 going on the walk. I said, you better start running it. 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.000 I looked like if in the pole down rain. I 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:21.400 went in the house. So next morning, my mama come 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:22.920 in the room and wake me up and stuff and 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:24.800 asked me to go to the store for And as 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.840 I walking back from the store, I see a car 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:29.959 that looked like a police car. And he stopped me. 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.640 He say, and you cleaning her? I said yeah. He said, 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:34.280 you living in the house right there? I said yeah. 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.360 He said, did you see anyone go up there street 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.400 last night? I said, I seen somebody go there this morning. 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:42.760 He said, do you know who you were? I said, now, 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:44.360 I don't know. I know he ain't from around here. 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.480 I said, what's up? He said, a lady got robbed 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:51.000 or down philth Avenue victim last night with Dunk. I said, duncan. 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:52.760 Now you got to be telling my ken and hair 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.360 Dunk and them sister to wear them own the dunkeys 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:57.720 in the area. I know everybody in the areage like that. 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.880 So he said, well, if you see the guy, let 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:02.120 me know. I say, well, if I see the guy 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.120 lit ken and hair with them, though, and if they 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.720 want you, they'll let you know like that. He said, 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:08.720 you ain't gonna tell me. I said, oh, hey, man, 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:10.360 I don't want to have no dinner with no police. 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:11.920 I'm gonna tell them and let them tell you that 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.839 said that. They sister. He said, okay, I see as man, 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:16.719 you're the police. You can do what you want to do. Man, 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:18.719 I said, I'm going to go on, and I walked on. 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.360 Chi hell, I got you and how. I told my sister, 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.959 you know what the police had said and asked me. So, 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:25.599 she said, well you better watch him cause you know 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.000 who that is. I said, yeah, I said, Dawson's like that. 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:28.920 She said yeah. 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:32.120 And it turns out that this Dawson guy is the 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.160 same cop who picked you up on that robbery back 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:39.240 in nineteen seventy eight. Oh yeah, yeah. So what happens next? 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:43.040 A couple days later, come back to the how. I said, hey, 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:45.360 he's uh, you see that guy, little man? I said, 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.160 I told you, man, if I see I'm gonna lit 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:48.840 ken and hair with them, No, you know, I said, 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:50.679 I don't even know who that dude was. He don't 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.640 love over. He said, so you're not gonna tell me? 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.319 May I tell them? I ain't telling you nothing. He's 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:58.000 all right, I'm gonna see you. I said, all right, 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:00.440 I just told you man, you the police do what 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:04.400 you want to do. He left again. Next time he come, 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.360 they come back with a woman. Said, had a woman 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.640 from my rest for arm rabber. My sister said, can 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:12.559 I see the one? He said, yes, look at the 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.800 war and said this thing got raped, robbery and kidnapped it. 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:18.280 I said, who what do I on raping the rod 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.320 like that? And when I said that, my niece came 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:23.439 out of the room said, claim who you know? 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:23.800 Ray? 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:26.200 I said, girl quit being said I ain't raising. Nobody 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.000 left like that, and my sister said it got dunking on. 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:30.920 She said, I said the only doctor over, that's who 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:32.520 they got to be talking about. So she said, I'm 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.520 finah calling. So she called the victim and said she 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:37.400 asked the victoms that you said my uncle the one 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.840 was supposed to rate you. And she told the police 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:42.559 said she said that she didn't say that he raped them. 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:44.960 She said there was somebody that looked like him. And 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.200 when my niece told him that he snatched the phone 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.520 from her, when he snapped the phone her, I snapped 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.360 the phone him and told him, no snap, no phone up. 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:53.200 I said, man, you don't pay no bill. He's I 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.240 told you what you come and go with me. He 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:57.280 snapped me in, put the handcuffs on me, and took 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:58.319 me to the police station. 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.160 So you're gonna take it away by the same guy 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.280 who arrested you for the nineteen seventy eight robbery, who 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.760 you haven't been all that helpful to in this incident, 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:10.480 and the probable cause that they used for the arrest 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:12.240 want we come to find out was a totally made 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.760 up story about a confidential informant who told them about 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.760 Clarence selling the victims watch. It's too bad that it 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:20.640 is nineteen eighty six and d theay testing is still 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.360 as fledgling stages, because otherwise we may not be having 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:26.840 this conversation and you never would have been subjected to 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.000 this misery at all. So is one of the theories 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:31.680 that it may have been this guy that Clarence saw 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:34.240 walking down the street at five or six in the morning. 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.920 Well, that's one option. There are some other people that 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:42.240 were in the neighborhood it could have been. Unfortunately, when 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.680 ultimately the DNA is tested, it doesn't tell us who 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:48.960 the actual perpetrator was. 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:51.640 Right, And as Clarence's niece heard over the phone from 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.280 the victim that she said it looked like Clarence, not 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:58.320 that it was Clarence. And this awful crime definitely happened 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.200 to this poor woman, and this is definitely a stranger 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:05.000 on stranger crime. The victim did not claim to have 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:09.200 known the assailant, but she definitely knew Clarence. So what 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.200 happens to turn this towards Clarence in the face of 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.319 this overwhelming evidence of the countrary. 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:19.600 They ended up getting an identification from the victim. She 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:23.480 said that she was absolutely certain it was Clarence Harrison. 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.200 And from there it's snowballs. 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.240 And we know that in the heat of the moment 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:34.280 victims of violent crimes, their perception is notoriously unreliable. Eyewitness 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.560 missed identification, after all, is one of the main causes 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.760 of wrongful convictions. But it's really super odd because the 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:43.320 victim said she didn't know the assailant, but you knew 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:43.960 her well. 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.120 But Brudnaym just fad that the victim knew me, so, 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:49.480 but she said she didn't know the person who committed 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:51.640 the client. I've been to her house and she'd been 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:52.920 to Mahal with folk. 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.560 So we don't know what kind of tactics they use 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:57.880 to make that turnaround come about. But whatever it was, 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:01.280 it certainly feels like she was re victim. But a 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:05.680 rape victim identifying you is pretty much all it takes, 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:10.040 I mean, absent some sort of powerful exculpatory physical DNA 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.480 evidence or something like that. And now comes the arraignment. 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.720 And unfortunately Clarence was poor, right, he didn't have the 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:21.200 money to hire a lawyer who could jump on the 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:26.920 case right away. After he was arraigned, the judge literally 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.360 there was a lawyer that was just there in the courthouse, 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.920 and the judge appointed that lawyer the case. 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:36.800 And the jewid told me that he was assigned him too. 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:38.800 He said, no, you're run, I got a full case. Low, 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.480 I can't Henley case. He said, well, I'm gonna send 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.080 you to this case. And they were going back and forth, 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:48.640 so a bencher the jew to sign the man representment, 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.840 and they were talking to the police off were trying 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:55.600 to tell how I become a suspect? And now he said, 0:14:56.200 --> 0:15:00.200 identified my photograph. He said, how did the big Tom 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.160 identify for prior to the victim identified in the photograph? 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.840 He said, well, he went through hundreds of police truck. 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:08.720 He said, well, prior to that, how did the defender 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:12.640 become a suspect? Then he said somebody defender had a 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:16.160 past similarity offense? And I told him, I said, well, indeed, 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.320 kind of case where y'all saying rapiers and all this 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:20.840 old stuff. Don't y'all for their fisical ebdence and stuff 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:23.640 like that? There, I didn't do some type of testing thing. 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.480 So Jeorge said, so, what you requesting blood simptom? I said, 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.040 I'm requesting whatever testing you need to prove my answer 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.720 because they ain't dead nothing. So Jeorge said, well, I'm 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.880 gonna recommend that you would do blood testings since your bone, 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:37.560 I said, said, who are born? I said, I don't 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:39.760 want no bond with y'all. Let me go, because I 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.040 ain't dead, nohing. But I didn't. I ain't meaning to 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:43.360 turn the bone. 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:43.520 Now. 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:46.240 I want him to know that I ain't done anything, 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.800 you know. But he took that like I was denying 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.440 the bone and stuff, so they denied me a bone. 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.560 So you've got a lawyer who's argued that he has 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.200 a full case load and doesn't even have the time 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.560 to take your case on. Well, at least he was 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:03.840 honest about it. But it didn't matter. Your trial happened 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.520 only about three months later, so there was no chance 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:11.040 for any real investigation to bolster your defense, and none 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:11.560 was done. 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.000 Well, you know, the sayd Poe with my lawyer, because 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:16.040 when I first come in in the courtroom and I 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.520 wassuring the lawyer, the peoples in the courtroom who was 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:21.680 at being a house wore the one were playing cord 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.800 that could testify. And lawyer told me said, well, his 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:28.520 defense wasn't to prove my owns. His defense was allowed 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.880 the state the opportunity to prove me guilty, you know. 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:32.960 And I said, prove me guilty? I said, well, are 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:34.640 you gonna prove me giltfu where you canna prove I 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.240 ain't do it? He said, he didn't do it an 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:40.400 investigation to prove my owns. His investigation was allowed the 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.200 state the opportunity to prove me guilty. 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.320 Wow, that's so, that's why. 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:46.680 The number of the people who were at the court 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.720 game were called other than the one the state called. 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.400 The state also called the victims brothers, who confirmed that 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:55.720 the assailant was supposed to have been a stranger and 0:16:55.760 --> 0:17:00.040 that you were not a stranger. Then you had the 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.000 logical testing, which really your only hope there is that 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.199 the actual perpetrator has a different blood type from you 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.360 and the victim. But in this case, the rology expert 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.160 testified some misleading nonsense that he was able to exclude 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:17.199 like twelve percent of people and Clarence could not be excluded, 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:20.399 which sounds like something, but if you just take a 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.920 second and rewind this, you'll realize that it simply means 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:28.000 that Clarence was one person in eighty eight percent of 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.359 the male population who could not be excluded, right, so 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:35.200 basically almost everybody could not be excluded. It's a ridiculous statement, 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.080 but it was effective. I'm not sure how much difference 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.680 it would have made with the victim having identified him. 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.879 The jury had a witness that took the stand and 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:48.720 said that is absolutely him, and we had evidence that said, yeah, 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.640 he could have been. He was in that eighty eight 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.560 percent of the population. He wasn't excluded there, and that 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:56.719 was enough for the jury. 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.720 Clarence, how long did the jury deliberate and what was 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:01.800 going on through your mind? Now we're up. This is 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:03.840 March eighteenth, nineteen eighty seven. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:06.679 I think it was less than two hours. But I 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.320 was believing in the system at time. I really believed 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:11.680 that the system worked and that it was impossible for 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:14.600 them to find me guilty. It wasn't about two hours. 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:16.760 They called me back up staff. When I got up there, 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:20.120 they said they found me guilty. And then George, something 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.320 sends you the life plus twenty plus twenty. But I'm 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.520 standing around. I'm looking for this hero to come and 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.800 correct this air, you know, because somebody always come and 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.960 correctly when they do wrong like this. But then I 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:34.359 turned around. When I looked back, I saw my mom crying. 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:37.400 And when I see my mother crying, and I realized 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:52.119 these folk one took my life away. Well, when I 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.960 first entered in the prison system up, I got a 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:59.960 letter from some uh intern from Century Ministry. They thought 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.600 I was a classic case of wrongful conviction. So they 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.920 told me, said, well, there's a new study being done 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:10.399 called DNA, and they suggested that I can tell my 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:13.760 turning to a quest to have all the eldescemac case 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:18.080 preserved and save future DNA testing. Well Man Turner wrote 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.919 me back and said that the district Turner said that 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.560 all the Eldence Macca been removed and destroyed. 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:26.719 Yeah, we've heard that one before, but okay for the 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.040 time being. What else were you up to? Well? 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:31.840 Prior to that, I had been trying to work on 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.720 my own case, reading them, trying going back and forth 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.119 over my transcript, trying to reading and stuff. Once did 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.080 I seen a guy working on another guy case and 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.080 asked him what he was doing. They told me he 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:44.720 was a chaining lawyer. Said he was pretty good. His 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.199 name was Robert Burston. The guy was very good with 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.520 briefs and haby corpy and asked him look at mine. 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.120 He told me, if I help him, I told him, yeah, 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:55.320 so hed him. Transcript be too. I say, man, hold 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:57.120 of man, I can't read that good. Now you want 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.199 me to read it something? He said? I tell you what, then, 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:00.880 if you go back to school up there and learn 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:02.480 how to read and stuff, I'm gonna help you get out. 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:04.600 You're like that, I said, ain't no problem, do so 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.399