Speaker 1: At around six am on October nine, six and twenty
Speaker 1: five year old woman was abducted by a stranger at
Speaker 1: a bus stop, assaulted, raped and sodomized, then dragged in
Speaker 1: two different locations where the assault continued. The assailant stole
Speaker 1: her wristwatch and broke her two front teeth. Miraculously, the
Speaker 1: victims survived that a rape kit was performed. However, in
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six, DNA testing was still in its infancy
Speaker 1: and sorology offered little of probitive value. The officer who
Speaker 1: eventually made the arrest approached Clarence Harrison, a man who
Speaker 1: had a previous conviction as an accessory to a robbery
Speaker 1: involving a woman at a bus stop. When asked about
Speaker 1: the victim, whom he knew from the neighborhood, Clarence said
Speaker 1: that if he heard anything that he would forward that
Speaker 1: information to her family, not the police, an answer that
Speaker 1: seemed to annoy the officer. While fabricating a story about
Speaker 1: a confidential informant having seen Clarence selling the victim's wristwatch,
Speaker 1: that officer included Clarence in a photo lineup. The assailant
Speaker 1: was a stranger and the victim do Clarence, but she
Speaker 1: said that the assailant looked like Clarence. After some time,
Speaker 1: it perhaps a great deal of pressure, she eventually identified
Speaker 1: Clarence and sealed his faith. With the advent of DNA
Speaker 1: testing and motions filed to finally uncover the truth, came
Speaker 1: reports that the rape kit had been destroyed along with it.
Speaker 1: Seems Clarence has hoped for relief from a life plus
Speaker 1: forty years sentence for a crime he simply did not commit.
Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today's
Speaker 1: story is the story of Clarence Harrison, sentenced to life
Speaker 1: in prison plus forty years. I always wonder about what
Speaker 1: those extra forty years or for. Is that if you
Speaker 1: come back to life, you do another forty It's all crazy,
Speaker 1: but sence to life plus forty years in Georgia and
Speaker 1: the State of Georgia for a crime you didn't commit, Clarence.
Speaker 1: Before I introduce our other distinguished guests today, First of all,
Speaker 1: I just want to say welcome to the show. I'm
Speaker 1: glad you're here. Thank you, Thank you. Van Biden. To
Speaker 1: me and with us is Amy Maxwell. And Amy is
Speaker 1: a senior District Attorney in the Fulton County District Attorney's Office.
Speaker 1: But before before you jump to conclusions, she's actually the
Speaker 1: head of the Fulton County Conviction Integrity Unit and the
Speaker 1: former executive director of the Georgia Innocence Project. And what
Speaker 1: a resume that is. Amy, Welcome to Raffle Conviction. Hi,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. And I read an incredible quote
Speaker 1: from you, Clarence Um where you had said that, and
Speaker 1: this is a direct quote. After a year or so
Speaker 1: in prison, you get burned out, and you fall off
Speaker 1: into the system, and you lose faith and your hope,
Speaker 1: and you begin to believe you'll never get out. And
Speaker 1: that happened to me. Well, I had been in uh
Speaker 1: few years, the first few years, I got strung out
Speaker 1: on trying to prove my answ and but I got
Speaker 1: burnt out, and uh I kind of low faith in
Speaker 1: the system and go out and everything and just maybe
Speaker 1: with life some twin and plus twina, you know, I
Speaker 1: was gonna live and that in prison, you know, and
Speaker 1: I tried to you know, a silk death with my
Speaker 1: life gonna be So I shipped the outside world out,
Speaker 1: called it there's so called free world, and I called
Speaker 1: the prison life my life. That was the real world
Speaker 1: to me. It's always amazing to me when when people
Speaker 1: like you were able to come out of that dark
Speaker 1: spiritual hole that you were in, and how you did
Speaker 1: it is an amazing part of the story. We're gonna
Speaker 1: get to that, but let's go back to the beginning.
Speaker 1: So you're born in Georgia. What was your childhood like?
Speaker 1: A pretty uh decent young man growing up, I was
Speaker 1: a club scout, a boy scout, you know. But as
Speaker 1: I got older and high school, I started doing drinking
Speaker 1: and yam, so I became a posted gama playing cards.
Speaker 1: I'd like to play pokem black jack, whatever kind of
Speaker 1: gam in the world. I just like the game, saidly say,
Speaker 1: I think they come from God. Just don't remember I
Speaker 1: have with my father who ran a bootleg house on
Speaker 1: a gam in the house and got throwed out, scooped
Speaker 1: because I went't doing right in school. But I got
Speaker 1: married early, just turned eighteen, head two daughters, and my
Speaker 1: first wife she had a daughter, So I had three girls.
Speaker 1: That's a lot, especially for somebody at the at that
Speaker 1: young age. And uh, I had my own struggles with
Speaker 1: gambling and drinking as a kid. So I can relate
Speaker 1: to that. But I was very lucky to never get
Speaker 1: into the type of serious trouble that you got into.
Speaker 1: From what I understand, some of the people you were
Speaker 1: hanging out with at the time got you into even
Speaker 1: more trouble when when you were riding around the car
Speaker 1: unaware of their intentions, and one of them popped out
Speaker 1: of the car and robbed a woman at a bus
Speaker 1: stop there was in nineteen seven eight. I didn't commit
Speaker 1: that crime. A partner and I with him the same thing. Wait,
Speaker 1: that's starting to sound like you were wrongly convicted, not
Speaker 1: once but twice. Now I ain't gonna say our ronal
Speaker 1: convicted because our extra with him, all I know we
Speaker 1: were rat bashing stopped the car, I said, bashing when
Speaker 1: you stopping the cup for? He said, RIXI eli as
Speaker 1: a man, y'all been not being breaking no boy how
Speaker 1: he said, now, man, no there you go back there,
Speaker 1: not a little back. Rick stand up, partner to going there,
Speaker 1: lay as man, y'all get that stupid food. And I
Speaker 1: get out of the car, told Rick, get it back
Speaker 1: in the car. Your partner to going They think you know,
Speaker 1: all of them turned state and I'm the on one
Speaker 1: went to prill. I get that you were with them,
Speaker 1: so technically that does make you an accessory. But still
Speaker 1: you tried to stop your friend, maybe even saved that
Speaker 1: lady's life. I mean, there's a case that we made.
Speaker 1: Then your friends went and saved their own asses, turning
Speaker 1: state's witnesses and putting you in prison for almost six
Speaker 1: years and leaving you primarily on the radar of the
Speaker 1: local police. So now we fast forward to the where
Speaker 1: a seven year old young man and this awful crime
Speaker 1: happens in Dikalb County, Georgia, also to a young woman
Speaker 1: at a bus stop. Amy, can you fill us in
Speaker 1: the rest of the details, and a warning to our audience,
Speaker 1: this is hard to hear. It was the morning of
Speaker 1: October six, It was really early in the morning, and
Speaker 1: the woman had just gotten a job at Grady Hospital,
Speaker 1: which was the large public hospital here in in Fulton
Speaker 1: County in Atlanta, Georgia. And she was standing at the
Speaker 1: bus stop waiting for the bus, and it was dark
Speaker 1: outside and it was raining. A man walked across the street,
Speaker 1: walked past her, turned around, and she didn't actually see
Speaker 1: him come up, but he came up behind her grabbed
Speaker 1: her from the back, drug her away from the bus stop.
Speaker 1: He ended up actually dragging her to three different locations
Speaker 1: where he assaulted her repeatedly. It was terrific, probably forty
Speaker 1: five minutes to an hour of being constantly abused. He'd
Speaker 1: abused her one place, he'd drag her someplace else, assaulter again.
Speaker 1: It was It was horrible, and he ended up hitting
Speaker 1: her in the face and knocking out some of her
Speaker 1: front teeth. He ends up leaving her. I don't know
Speaker 1: if he thought she was dead or what, but he
Speaker 1: left her and she's, you know, of course, completely nude.
Speaker 1: She tries to flag down a car. The first car
Speaker 1: just drives right by her, but the second car does
Speaker 1: stop and and help her. She ends up going into
Speaker 1: the hospital. They took a sexual assault kit, which of
Speaker 1: course ends up later being extremely important. And as far
Speaker 1: as how Clarence became a suspect, what the police said
Speaker 1: was that some confidential informant had told them that Clarence
Speaker 1: was trying to sell a woman's watch, and one of
Speaker 1: the very few things that the rapist took from this
Speaker 1: woman was watch. So the police and courts say, that's
Speaker 1: how we got to Clarence because Clarence was trying to
Speaker 1: sell a woman's watch. Later we find out that wasn't
Speaker 1: at all true. The police officer actually admitted that he
Speaker 1: made that whole story up right, and they and they
Speaker 1: just decided it was him, right, the guy who had
Speaker 1: previously been an accessory to robbing a woman at the
Speaker 1: bus stop. So, Clarence, what were you up to on
Speaker 1: the night before and into that morning? I was directed
Speaker 1: to across screet from my home. Had a friend of
Speaker 1: mine house. He ran, uh bootleg house where we go
Speaker 1: with them bad beer and stuff and we usually play
Speaker 1: cards without every weekend now playing call for a few
Speaker 1: hours there. It's an ear the morning elect him getting
Speaker 1: daybreak and I told my a man, that's uh, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be day Brad gets something to get ready to
Speaker 1: go home. They had to be around about five six
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. And as how, walking old mall
Speaker 1: opening the door, and I've seen the guy walking to
Speaker 1: the screek and heywa, hey, were you here? Man? He's aid,
Speaker 1: he said, going to the bus stop. I said, the
Speaker 1: bus stop. I was a man, that's a you got
Speaker 1: a couple of hours for the bus round man, that's Uh,
Speaker 1: this the weekend. If you want to make come over
Speaker 1: and stand up on the poet. He said, Now he's something.
Speaker 1: I guess. I'm going on the walk as you better
Speaker 1: store running in because I look like I from the
Speaker 1: poll down rain. I went in. How So next morning
Speaker 1: my mom come in the room and waked me up
Speaker 1: and stuff and asked me to go to the store
Speaker 1: for And as I walking back fun the store, I
Speaker 1: see up a call that looked like a police car
Speaker 1: and he stopped me as he ain't you cleaning here?
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, he's living there right there. I said yeah.
Speaker 1: He said, did you see him one go to the
Speaker 1: screen lays at night? I said, I've seen somebody going
Speaker 1: that this morning. He said, uh, do you know where
Speaker 1: you are? Now? I don't know. I know he's from
Speaker 1: around here. I said, what's up? He's a lady got
Speaker 1: rolled or on your family being lays name were dunk?
Speaker 1: I said, doctor, how you gotta be telling my Ken
Speaker 1: and Harold doctor them with them know on the Dunkers
Speaker 1: in the air. I know everybody in the everything like that.
Speaker 1: So he said, well, if you see the guy, let
Speaker 1: me not Well, if I see the guy like Ken
Speaker 1: inher with them know, and if they want you there,
Speaker 1: let you know that that he's So you don't tell me.
Speaker 1: I oh, hey, man, I don't want to have no
Speaker 1: dealer with no polium. And tell them and let them
Speaker 1: tell you that said that they sister, it's okay, I
Speaker 1: see as man, you the polly, you can do what
Speaker 1: you wanna do. Man, that's something to go on. And
Speaker 1: I walked on you and how I got you, and
Speaker 1: how I told my sister, you know, with the polic
Speaker 1: head see it and with Athman. So she said, will
Speaker 1: you be at watching him cause you know who that
Speaker 1: he is? Said? Yeah, I said Dawson's that she's yeah.
Speaker 1: And it turns out that this Dawsome guy is the
Speaker 1: same cop who picked you up on that robbery back
Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventy eight. So what happens next couple
Speaker 1: of days later come back to the how as, hey, he's, uh,
Speaker 1: you've seen that guys a little man. As I told you, man,
Speaker 1: if I see him lit ken inhered them. No, you know,
Speaker 1: as I don't even know who they due war. You
Speaker 1: don't live what we all. He said, So you're not
Speaker 1: gonna tell me that, man, I tell them, ain't telling
Speaker 1: you nothing? He's all right, I'm gonna see that. Said,
Speaker 1: all right, I just told you man, you the poll,
Speaker 1: you do what you wanna do. He left again. They
Speaker 1: time me come. They come back with a warant She
Speaker 1: had a woe for mile rist form robber. My so said,
Speaker 1: can I see the one? He said yeah, looked at
Speaker 1: the war and said the thing got raped. Robber ain't kidnapping.
Speaker 1: I said, what do I pot on raking the road?
Speaker 1: You're like that? And when I said that, my nick
Speaker 1: came out of the room said, claim who you know? Ray?
Speaker 1: Girl quit being said, ain't ray nobody. They're like that,
Speaker 1: And my south said it got dunking on. She I
Speaker 1: don't know the doctor. That's who they got to be
Speaker 1: telling out. So she's up in the colding. So she
Speaker 1: called the victim. He said she had the big things
Speaker 1: that you said, my uncle, the one was supposed rate you.
Speaker 1: And she told the police said she said that she
Speaker 1: didn't say that he raped does She said there was
Speaker 1: somebody that looked like him. And when my niece told
Speaker 1: him that, he snapped the phone. Well, when he snapped
Speaker 1: the phone, well I snapped the phone him and told no,
Speaker 1: snaid no phone man, you don't pay no bill. He's
Speaker 1: I tell you what you come and go with me.
Speaker 1: He snapped me and put the handcuffs on me. He
Speaker 1: took me to the police station. So you're gonna take
Speaker 1: away by the same guy who arrested you for the
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight robbery, who you haven't been all that
Speaker 1: helpful to in this incident. And the probable cause that
Speaker 1: they used for the arrest want we come to find
Speaker 1: out was a totally made up story about a confidential
Speaker 1: informant who told them about Clarence selling the victim's watch.
Speaker 1: It's too bad and d day testing is still his
Speaker 1: fledgling stages, because otherwise we may not be having this
Speaker 1: conversation and you never would have been subjected to this
Speaker 1: misery at all. So is one of the theories that
Speaker 1: it may have been this guy that Clarence saw walking
Speaker 1: down the street at five or six in the morning.
Speaker 1: Well that's one option. There are some other people that
Speaker 1: were in the neighborhood it could have been. Unfortunately, when
Speaker 1: ultimately the DNA is tested, it doesn't tell us who
Speaker 1: the actual perpetrator was. Right, and as Clarence's niece heard
Speaker 1: over the phone from the victim that she said it
Speaker 1: looked like Clarence, not that it was Clarence. And this
Speaker 1: awful crime definitely happened to this poor woman, and this
Speaker 1: is definitely a stranger un stranger crime. The victim did
Speaker 1: not claim to have known the assailant, but she definitely
Speaker 1: knew Clarence. So what happens to turn this towards Clarence
Speaker 1: in the face of this overwhelming evidence of the country.
Speaker 1: They ended up getting an identification from the victim um
Speaker 1: she said that she was absolutely certain it was Clarence Harrison,
Speaker 1: and from there it's snowballs. And we know that in
Speaker 1: the heat of the moment victims of violent crimes, their
Speaker 1: perception is notoriously unreliable. I witnessed mis identification, after all,
Speaker 1: is one of the main causes of wrongful convictions. But
Speaker 1: it's really super odd because the victim said she didn't
Speaker 1: know the assailant, but you knew her well with d
Speaker 1: that the victim knew me. So what she said she
Speaker 1: didn't know the person who committed a clan her house,
Speaker 1: and she'd been to Mahoup. So we don't know what
Speaker 1: kind of tactics they used to make that turnaround come about,
Speaker 1: but whatever it was. It certainly feels like she was
Speaker 1: real victimized, but a rape victim identifying you is pretty
Speaker 1: much all it takes, I mean absence some sort of
Speaker 1: powerful exculpatory physical DNA evidence or something like that. And
Speaker 1: now comes the arrangement. And unfortunately Clarence was poor, right,
Speaker 1: he didn't have the money to hire a lawyer who
Speaker 1: could jump on the case right away. After he was arraigned.
Speaker 1: The judge literally there was a lawyer that was just
Speaker 1: there in the courthouse, and the judge appointed that lawyer
Speaker 1: the case. And the Jeward told him that he was
Speaker 1: assigned until he said, no, you're run. I got a
Speaker 1: full case. Low at can't handling ca He said, well,
Speaker 1: almost saying you to this case. And they were going
Speaker 1: back and forth so a bench, the Jeworge saying the
Speaker 1: man representment and they were talking to the police are
Speaker 1: with uh with trying to have become a suspect? And
Speaker 1: now he said, big identifying my photograph? He said, how
Speaker 1: did the big him identified for prior to the big
Speaker 1: identifying the photographs? He said, where he went through hundreds
Speaker 1: of police ruck He said, well, prior to that, how
Speaker 1: did the defender become a suspect? Then he said something
Speaker 1: about fend the head of past similar air of defense,
Speaker 1: and I told him, I said, well, indeed kind of case.
Speaker 1: What y'are saying rapings? Now? All this old stuff, don't
Speaker 1: you all for the helpdence and stuff like that. I
Speaker 1: didn't do some type of testing thing. So georgea, so
Speaker 1: what you're requesting blood simper? I don't requesting whatever testing
Speaker 1: you need to prove my owns because ain't didn't that.
Speaker 1: So George said, well, I'm gonna recommend that you would
Speaker 1: do blood testings and set your bon and I said, said,
Speaker 1: who are boning? As? I don't want to a ball
Speaker 1: with y'all letting me go because they ain't did then,
Speaker 1: But I didn't. I didn't mean to turn the ball
Speaker 1: on down. I want him to know that I ain't
Speaker 1: done anything, you know. But he told that like I
Speaker 1: was denying the boning and stuff, so they didn't have
Speaker 1: me a boning. So you've got a lawyer who has
Speaker 1: argued that he has a foldcase load and doesn't even
Speaker 1: have the time to take your case on. Well, at
Speaker 1: least he was honest about it, but it didn't matter.
Speaker 1: Your trial happened only about three months later, so there
Speaker 1: was no chance for any real investigation to bolster your defense,
Speaker 1: and none was done. Well, you know, the said for
Speaker 1: with my lawyer, because when I first come in in
Speaker 1: the courtroom and I was sure the lawyer the people
Speaker 1: in the courtroom who was it being a hell? I
Speaker 1: would the one who playing code that could terrify And
Speaker 1: lawyer told me said what his defense wasn't to prove
Speaker 1: my ownswer. His defense would allowed the state the opportunity
Speaker 1: to prove me guilty, you know, and hasn't proved me good.
Speaker 1: That we aren't gonna prove me good. For when you
Speaker 1: can prove I ain't do it, he said, he didn't
Speaker 1: do an investigation to prove my ownswer. His investigation wards
Speaker 1: allowed the state opportunity to prove me guilty. Wow, that's so,
Speaker 1: that's why none of the people who we had the
Speaker 1: code game were cold other than the one the state code.
Speaker 1: The state also called the victims brothers who confirmed that
Speaker 1: the assailant was supposed to have been a stranger and
Speaker 1: that you were not a stranger. Then you had the
Speaker 1: ser logical testing, which really your only hope there is
Speaker 1: that the actual perpetrator has a different blood type from you,
Speaker 1: and the victim. But in this case, the prology expert
Speaker 1: testified some misleading nonsense that he was able to exclude
Speaker 1: like twelve percent of people and Clarence could not be excluded,
Speaker 1: which sounds like something, but if you just take a
Speaker 1: second and rewind this, you'll realize that it simply means
Speaker 1: that Clarence was one person in eight percent of the
Speaker 1: male population who could not be excluded, right, So basically
Speaker 1: almost everybody could not be excluded. It's a ridiculous statement,
Speaker 1: but it was effective. I'm not sure how much difference
Speaker 1: it would have made, though, with the victim having identified him.
Speaker 1: The jury had witness that took the stand and said
Speaker 1: that is absolutely him, and we had evidence that said yeah,
Speaker 1: he could have been He was in that percent of
Speaker 1: the population, he wasn't excluded there, and that was enough
Speaker 1: for the jury. Clarence, how long did the jury deliberate
Speaker 1: and what was going through your mind? Hour? Up? This
Speaker 1: is March eighteenth, nine seven. I think it were listening
Speaker 1: two hours. But I was believing in the system at time.
Speaker 1: I really believe that the system worth and that it
Speaker 1: was impossible for them to find me guilt. It wasn't
Speaker 1: about two out they called me back up stairs. When
Speaker 1: I got up there, they said they found me guilting
Speaker 1: because they enjoyed something sends you the life plus twinter
Speaker 1: plus twinter. But I'm standing around. I'm looking for this
Speaker 1: hero to come and correct this are you know, because
Speaker 1: somebody always come and correct and when they do wrong
Speaker 1: like this. But then I turned around. When I looked back,
Speaker 1: I saw my mom crying. And when I see my
Speaker 1: mother cry, I realized the photo took my life away. Well,
Speaker 1: when I first enter in the prison system, I got
Speaker 1: a letto from some uh intern from Center Ministry. They
Speaker 1: thought that was a classic case a wrongfully conviction. So
Speaker 1: they told me, said, well, there's a new stud of
Speaker 1: being done called DNA, and they suggested that I tell
Speaker 1: a male turning to request the hell of at all
Speaker 1: the evidence and mat caves preserved and safe future DNA testing.
Speaker 1: Well Man Turning wrote me back and said that the
Speaker 1: this returner said that all the evidence maccave been removed
Speaker 1: and destroyed. Yeah, we've heard that one before, but okay,
Speaker 1: for the time being, what else were you up to?
Speaker 1: But prior to that, I had been trying to work
Speaker 1: on my own caith reading and trying going back and
Speaker 1: forth over my transcript trying to read and stuff. One
Speaker 1: that I've seen a guy working on another guy keith,
Speaker 1: and I asked him what he was doing. They told
Speaker 1: me he was a changing lawyer. Said he were pretty
Speaker 1: good and name were Robert Burson. The guy was very
Speaker 1: good with briefs and habd corpy and they asked me,
Speaker 1: look at mine. He told me. If I hearm, I
Speaker 1: told me you so you Haim transcripted, Hey man, old,
Speaker 1: look man, I can't read that good and now you
Speaker 1: want me to read it something he's I tell you
Speaker 1: what if you go back this cool? If they learned
Speaker 1: how to read stuff, I'm gonna help you get out.
Speaker 1: You're like that as there ain't no problem due so
Speaker 1: I quiz. Had my counsel put me back in school.
Speaker 1: It wasn't that I couldn't read. It just had a
Speaker 1: never exercise. Because after I got back in school, I
Speaker 1: ended up getting my g D in nine months. I
Speaker 1: got into a college program. But during that time I
Speaker 1: was in college, I started helping him mountain stuff and
Speaker 1: he told me about pari legal course that I could
Speaker 1: take through the mayor. And I was reading open track,
Speaker 1: going through the books and stuff working on the case
Speaker 1: after all this, and I learned how to shop that
Speaker 1: case and stuff like that. The guy worked on the
Speaker 1: writing brief and stuff, and from that part on I
Speaker 1: got dog gonna learn how to try to get out. Well,
Speaker 1: that didn't help. All I know. My mother paid. My
Speaker 1: mother paid the dnamen than that I gave up, so
Speaker 1: I except that I was gonna spend the rest of
Speaker 1: my life in priv You know, Clarence, My understanding is
Speaker 1: that you found hope when a very unexpected and sort
Speaker 1: of serendipitous right, which was when another prisoner was talking
Speaker 1: to his girlfriend and handed you hit the phone. And
Speaker 1: this was when you were really in the dark place
Speaker 1: as you described, right, And on the phone was the
Speaker 1: girlfriend's mother, whose name was Ivonne Zeller's. I would love
Speaker 1: if you could just share a little bit about that. Yes, um,
Speaker 1: I started putting down poker games in the dumbitor stuff.
Speaker 1: You know, guys played poker stuff. One of the guys,
Speaker 1: that man said, how about how nick my mother in
Speaker 1: law man she's trying to jump with as a man
Speaker 1: as ant you know, I only with the most so
Speaker 1: called free world folks like that. He had been the
Speaker 1: phone sting. I get on that sto. I said, what's
Speaker 1: up the latest? What's your problems? She said, what's your problem?
Speaker 1: And I start teasing with the heaving phone, you know,
Speaker 1: and all of a suddain you know I'm talking and
Speaker 1: she said, man, you're crazy. Man, that ain't crazy, You're crazy,
Speaker 1: you know. I'll tell you what she said, what's your nomber?
Speaker 1: Would you want to I'm gonna write you, and you're
Speaker 1: gonna write me. Well, she started sending me the Baba
Speaker 1: scriptures and she would come to business stuff. She were
Speaker 1: witnessing to him. She wasn't trying to date me anything
Speaker 1: like that, but she was trying to witness to me
Speaker 1: with Bob the scripture. And one day I was sitting
Speaker 1: up playing poking stuff that and they had put a
Speaker 1: new dudes in my room. He was a Christian, always
Speaker 1: reading about in the room stuff and I be damn
Speaker 1: the every day. So one day asked him what she
Speaker 1: could send me the scriptures? She wants you to reply
Speaker 1: back to How you gonna reply back to? Day? He said,
Speaker 1: you got to read about But I knew it was
Speaker 1: a trick somewhere, you know, So I had to do.
Speaker 1: I do you reply to the thing? He told me
Speaker 1: how they doing things. So I thought, reading about script
Speaker 1: and right, I would say, she come and visit me
Speaker 1: and tell me about the new program they got called
Speaker 1: the George on some projects. She said, a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: what you're in for by send him a transcript. That's
Speaker 1: me who they're talking about. They saying that both did.
Speaker 1: They don't say you did, and they said the lady said,
Speaker 1: or somebody, they don't say who did. As I know,
Speaker 1: they're trying to say the idea that she's a man.
Speaker 1: You know what, I'm gonna get your lawyer, as I
Speaker 1: know you super want you already got two jobs, already
Speaker 1: talking about your being a thing. Then you want to
Speaker 1: get another job for me? And sure enough she got
Speaker 1: a third job watching dishes. And she had the lawyer
Speaker 1: and I told him I wanted him to find the
Speaker 1: DNA evidence in that cake. He went on and we
Speaker 1: looked for He said, well, there's no evidence of it,
Speaker 1: evidence being a stroller. And if there's no rock of
Speaker 1: the evidence, is this well Lloyd kept looking forward. That's
Speaker 1: when I wrote the Georgians and Project. When they found evidence,
Speaker 1: it was a whole new ball game, you know, yep,
Speaker 1: the whole new ball game it was. So I think
Speaker 1: it's safe to say that Ivan was able to rekindle
Speaker 1: your hope and the story, your faith and focus on
Speaker 1: freedom and amy. The Georgia Innocence Project was brand new
Speaker 1: at that time, right, So tell us about taking Clarence's
Speaker 1: case and what it took to get him out. Clarence
Speaker 1: was the twenty one letter we received. So he wrote
Speaker 1: us very very very early and getting it started, and
Speaker 1: every one of his letters was compelling. From the beginning.
Speaker 1: He wrote very specific, very detailed information explaining, you know,
Speaker 1: like this is what they said, this is what was real,
Speaker 1: this is where I was, this is And then he
Speaker 1: started sending us bus schedules that he had gotten, diagrams
Speaker 1: of the scenes. I mean, this man clearly was trying
Speaker 1: to figure out how he ended up in prison. So
Speaker 1: we started looking at the case and it was a
Speaker 1: really odd case and many many points we could have
Speaker 1: just said no, like he had had an appeal, he
Speaker 1: had had DNA testing done, but it was weird because
Speaker 1: they said they could not test the evidence because of
Speaker 1: the way the slide had been stained, and that made
Speaker 1: no sense to us, and we asked experts and they're like, uh,
Speaker 1: that's not a thing. You know, we've been staining slides
Speaker 1: the same way since we started staining slides. It doesn't
Speaker 1: prevent testing. So we're like, okay. And then the district
Speaker 1: attorney had reported that the evidence had been destroyed, that
Speaker 1: it was gone. But there were things that bothered us,
Speaker 1: and we knew that there was the potential just because
Speaker 1: you say you destroyed it, you got to prove to
Speaker 1: me you've destroyed it, right. You gotta have a piece
Speaker 1: of paper show me you've destroyed it. So we just
Speaker 1: kept on and kept on, and one afternoon I sent
Speaker 1: an intern, Laura of A Ducci. I'll never forget Laura.
Speaker 1: She went to the d a's office and I said,
Speaker 1: just go look and see. You know what kind of
Speaker 1: documents they have, you know, just go through their file.
Speaker 1: And I get a call from her. She says, Amy,
Speaker 1: there is a brown paper bag in here and it's
Speaker 1: marked evidence, and she goes, I can't really feel and
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to do anything, but it feels like that,
Speaker 1: you know, there may be slides and things in here.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, this was my very first case, right,
Speaker 1: so I'm thinking, oh my god, they're going to try
Speaker 1: to hide this because they've already said it was destroyed.
Speaker 1: They're going to destroy it. What am I gonna do?
Speaker 1: So I said, just put the lid on, don't say anything,
Speaker 1: and get back over here quick. So she did, and
Speaker 1: we immediately typed up the motion to have it tested,
Speaker 1: and at that point the d A realized, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: we really do have the evidence, and they did not
Speaker 1: oppose testing. We sent it to a private lab and
Speaker 1: after they did their testing, the order said that the
Speaker 1: lab was supposed to tell both parties, and the head
Speaker 1: of the lab thought that meant that he had to
Speaker 1: tell us both at the same time. So he called
Speaker 1: me and he said, I think you need to go
Speaker 1: to the d a's office. I've got the test results.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, tell me what they are. He goes, no,
Speaker 1: I have to tell you both at the same time.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, tell me right now. What
Speaker 1: is it? He goes, Amy, I would hurry to the
Speaker 1: d a's office. I'm like, okay, hey, I'm on my way.
Speaker 1: So we called the d A and you know, he
Speaker 1: had his people in the office with us, and we
Speaker 1: get on the phone and the doctor said, yeah, Clarence
Speaker 1: Harrison is absolutely excluded. And I looked over and the
Speaker 1: d a's face just dropped, and I think that never, ever, ever,
Speaker 1: ever did he think this could happen. And he asked
Speaker 1: a thousand questions, and of course, you know, there's it's
Speaker 1: it's clear the DNA is not Clarences. So this was
Speaker 1: up Tuesday, and I said, I'm going to do a
Speaker 1: press conference on Friday, y'all, you'll decide what you want
Speaker 1: to do. So I get back and I don't know
Speaker 1: what's going to happen, right, So I called the folks
Speaker 1: up in New York at the Innacent's Project, and I said,
Speaker 1: how long is it gonna take me to get him
Speaker 1: out of prison? And Clarence was the hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: one DNA exnerie, and they said it's going to take
Speaker 1: you anywhere between six months and two years. And I thought, great,
Speaker 1: all right, fine, and so we went down and told
Speaker 1: Clarence and I warned him it was going to take
Speaker 1: a very long time to get him out of prison.
Speaker 1: And it did not name your excitement about the resort.
Speaker 1: You've ruined it for me, Clarence, You've ruined it. Wait,
Speaker 1: so he ruined it almost seems like it couldn't be ruined.
Speaker 1: How doubted he ruined it? Well, that's because Clarence ruined
Speaker 1: my big moment um. So we actually convinced the Department
Speaker 1: of Corrections to let us take a video camera. So
Speaker 1: we got down and we're meeting in this lovely conference
Speaker 1: room and said, Clarence, we got the test results back.
Speaker 1: And he goes okay, and mind you, the video cameras
Speaker 1: go in the whole time. He's like okay, And I'm like,
Speaker 1: are you ready to hear the results? And he's like yeah.
Speaker 1: And I said, well it absolutely excled you. And he
Speaker 1: goes okay, no, no reaction, nothing like Clarence, do you
Speaker 1: understand it proves that you're innocent? He goes okay, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, uh, And I'm thinking to myself, did I
Speaker 1: miss that? He might be like, you know, I'm not intellectually,
Speaker 1: you know, there might be some problems. I'm like, he
Speaker 1: does he understand me? And I say, Clarence, do you understand?
Speaker 1: He goes amy, He goes, that test was for you.
Speaker 1: I've always known I was innocent. So I have the
Speaker 1: world's most boring video of telling Clarence he's innocent. That
Speaker 1: was happened I would happen for you, you know that.
Speaker 1: And I was happy that now somebody knew that I
Speaker 1: hadn't committed, you know, just that alone was enough for me.
Speaker 1: And you were just cool as a cucumber, even though
Speaker 1: you were getting the best I mean, other than maybe
Speaker 1: the birth of your kids. This had to be the
Speaker 1: best news you've ever gotten in your life. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: the one didn't go back to massile and I got
Speaker 1: back to doom. I told you, ain't y'all. I'm fley'all now,
Speaker 1: I told you I don't phone approved, ain't commit the crime.
Speaker 1: The whole dome lit up and just stow a celebrating stuff.
Speaker 1: We had a little part in the dombitor, you know.
Speaker 1: Oh the guy will happen for me and stuff. You know.
Speaker 1: But uh, I thought they're gonna wait six months or
Speaker 1: two you and thing. But on that Friday they called
Speaker 1: me and told me how to go down to cold out.
Speaker 1: You're scared to brace something because I didn't know what
Speaker 1: they speck on outside world. I didn't have no time.
Speaker 1: Ain't nobody cheating up and get out? You know, three
Speaker 1: days I don't even know where Mania was sleep That
Speaker 1: Thursday without telling me the District Attorney's office arranged to
Speaker 1: have Clarence brought back to the Cab County. So on
Speaker 1: Friday when we had our press conference, the District Attorney's
Speaker 1: office stood next to me and said, yes, this is
Speaker 1: an innocent man. We're going to get him out of prison.
Speaker 1: Everything happened so very fast. So within seven days Clarence
Speaker 1: was out of prison. What an amazing thing. And for
Speaker 1: such a guy as as Clarence, it's really, um, it's
Speaker 1: it's just awesome, and it's it's why we do this work.
Speaker 1: Let's face it, the victories are few and far between,
Speaker 1: and we know we're in for a disappointment after disappointment,
Speaker 1: and the system is stacked against us. But when we win, man,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's an incredible, incredible feeling. Um.
Speaker 1: And then then and then this takes a romantic to us.
Speaker 1: Right yep. When I got out stand on their coat
Speaker 1: room when they released me from from jail, I'm standing
Speaker 1: up there without the report. They asked me what type
Speaker 1: of meal and stuff I want? That told him I
Speaker 1: wanted me a full color green cone bread, fried cheek
Speaker 1: and background. She tastes out. I would name it at all.
Speaker 1: I wanted it too, and uh, they asked me something
Speaker 1: as well as a first of all, I got to
Speaker 1: find me a job because I don't even know where
Speaker 1: I'm gonna sleep it. And I hope if I found
Speaker 1: me a job and paid me enough, Sack and Marridge
Speaker 1: a little later, right, hum, So I started peeking the hall,
Speaker 1: but I was just teasing with because we never chold
Speaker 1: full and no relationship. She was always there witnessing to me.
Speaker 1: So I see, as hopefully I'm making no money about
Speaker 1: the pretty little lady on Rain and she'r over to
Speaker 1: your mayor. Well, sure enough, the republic herried that man.
Speaker 1: We got all kind of got the wind dress, the range.
Speaker 1: Atlanta came through for you and donated everything Steen days
Speaker 1: that I was least that were Ma. You were and
Speaker 1: you're still married, aren't you still? Mary May? Seventeen years?
Speaker 1: But I was locked up seven teen years now, been
Speaker 1: marvery seven teen year A lot back up on again, Clarence,
Speaker 1: you didn't just stop was being declared innocent? You sought
Speaker 1: for the state to make things right. Well, my intitition
Speaker 1: wars I won't. I wanted to bowlow suit for my
Speaker 1: wrong and imprisonment. I had these lawyers, and I want
Speaker 1: to find out how I got embolved in their came
Speaker 1: because I was told that you know, I'm about to
Speaker 1: try to prove my answer, you know, before you can
Speaker 1: found in type of losser that it was delivered and
Speaker 1: the intention. I said, yeah, with delivering tentioner, how they're
Speaker 1: gonna came down? Were handy been the live because you
Speaker 1: know I wouldn't it to seen. So the lawyer said,
Speaker 1: got to get the victim to admit that it was
Speaker 1: a mistake in that dumblic cation as well name center
Speaker 1: the case. Thing, Well, victim identifies some they're not gonna
Speaker 1: go back on their work and they don't leave over
Speaker 1: that just along with I don't leave with being look cute.
Speaker 1: So that ain't gonna help, I said, but I want
Speaker 1: the officer. I really believe the man deliver intention and
Speaker 1: made me that suspect. And I was chilling to be
Speaker 1: a Mitchell who was mild turning, and I was telling
Speaker 1: as the man you're the one who responded me being
Speaker 1: in He said, well, not harder with the police office
Speaker 1: being their help as well, he's a police officer. And
Speaker 1: one thing about the police officer their erica. They think
Speaker 1: they can't be church. He's what you mean, because he
Speaker 1: erica up and he gonna meet and said he did it.
Speaker 1: He might tell you what the attitude, but he erica
Speaker 1: nothing to do it, you think, so as I know so,
Speaker 1: and sure enough he did it. Seemed there was no
Speaker 1: unidentified person say he done that because I had a
Speaker 1: small amount, because you had a smart mouth, right, and
Speaker 1: he ended up in president all those years for basically
Speaker 1: talking bout I mean, it's unbelievable. But see the theory
Speaker 1: of that. By me having a small amount, that whole
Speaker 1: because when you came behind me, you already knew who
Speaker 1: I wore, knew where I lived and everything, so you
Speaker 1: came looking for me that very morning. So he already
Speaker 1: had not made me a suspect because I had a
Speaker 1: pride offense for rang the female at the bus stop
Speaker 1: and then picked him got raked at the bus stop,
Speaker 1: and he was the police officer who arrested me back then,
Speaker 1: so he figured I was locked up for that, that
Speaker 1: I had committed this crime, and he was gonna make
Speaker 1: me be that person. Right. He hadn't with you since
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight in a crime where you were an
Speaker 1: unwilling accessory to a robbery, So he was already barking
Speaker 1: up your tree before you ever even talked back to
Speaker 1: him on that faithful morning of October six. So your
Speaker 1: presence in the photo lineup and everything that followed was
Speaker 1: all this one police officer wanting desperately to send a
Speaker 1: convicted felon back to prison, and he did for almost
Speaker 1: eighteen long years. So you ultimately received compensation in two
Speaker 1: thousand nine, although nothing would ever repay what this guy
Speaker 1: stole from you, and it was only a million dollars
Speaker 1: for lost wages, much of which is gone by now.
Speaker 1: So from what I understand, you've been advocating for exonorees
Speaker 1: to receive social security with Senator as off right incredible.
Speaker 1: We're trying to get a b up so security because
Speaker 1: when gad get out and stuff, I'll cheer you every
Speaker 1: guy in the pribim when you go two things in there,
Speaker 1: you help the bay and everything. Them gazing in no
Speaker 1: shape to be come up and trying to work and
Speaker 1: putting a bitteen twenty years in getting overtired me. They
Speaker 1: won't be to you know, because they bought it broke
Speaker 1: now and but they can't get the air pinching their
Speaker 1: thing because doing old gil so secured to have a
Speaker 1: zero there of income ain't being put in there and
Speaker 1: which that sho would be replaced. The every inmate that's
Speaker 1: in the prison system works. It called detail. If you
Speaker 1: don't have a detail and go out to your detail,
Speaker 1: you'll put in the hole. You're punged for not working.
Speaker 1: So I'm unable to get so secured, I can't get
Speaker 1: my retirement. Y'all stole me youth, and now you don't
Speaker 1: want to come say for my oldie. You know it
Speaker 1: missed up. It definitely is, you know, And you got
Speaker 1: me thinking. I'd imagine that you could fix the social
Speaker 1: security issue through legislation. But if they just ended the
Speaker 1: loophole in the thirteenth Amendment that still allows for the
Speaker 1: enslavement of men and women who are convicted of a crime,
Speaker 1: well then they'd have to pay you for your work
Speaker 1: as well as contribute to social security. Right, would be
Speaker 1: two problems solved at once. That you had read on
Speaker 1: the my that we will slave labor, but the slave
Speaker 1: labor right. You can definitely argue that an axonrey like
Speaker 1: yourself deserves to be taken care of through retirement. For
Speaker 1: the rest of your life as your ability to earn
Speaker 1: and pay into Social Security was, I mean, it was
Speaker 1: wrongfully stolen away through no fault of your own. But
Speaker 1: ultimately the question comes down to does the United States
Speaker 1: still support this sort of secret form of slavery or not.
Speaker 1: It's disgusting that we're still benefiting off of free labor.
Speaker 1: Corporations are, and in some cases taxpayers are especially considering
Speaker 1: the origins of it all. So I'm glad you have
Speaker 1: Senator ass Off support, so we'll be on the lookout
Speaker 1: for developments there. In the meantime that Georgia in this
Speaker 1: project has the support fund set up for Axonure, so
Speaker 1: if our listeners would like to help men and women
Speaker 1: like Clarents, we're going to have that linked in the bio,
Speaker 1: and so please do go to the bio now, don't
Speaker 1: don't wait, because you know we all get distracted and
Speaker 1: send some support for some axonaries, even if it's five
Speaker 1: bucks or five million bucks, whatever you got. Just I mean,
Speaker 1: it's try to think of a better cause. And now
Speaker 1: we turn into closing arguments, where first of all, I
Speaker 1: thank both of you for being here and sharing this
Speaker 1: remarkable story. And then of course, I'm going to just
Speaker 1: shut my microphone off, keep my headphones on and listen
Speaker 1: carefully to anything else you feel is left to be said.
Speaker 1: So Amy, let's start with you and Clarence. Please take
Speaker 1: us off into the sunset. I think that Clarence Harrison
Speaker 1: taught me to never give up. Even though he went
Speaker 1: through dark times, he never gave up and he always, always,
Speaker 1: always tries to give back. He's always great to the
Speaker 1: new Axonorees. He loves to talk to kids to try
Speaker 1: to tell them, don't go down a path that's going
Speaker 1: to lead you to being where I was. And he's
Speaker 1: always an inspiration. But I think the overriding thing with
Speaker 1: Clarence is never ever give up. Film this that do
Speaker 1: enjoy speaking the keys and things and try to encourage
Speaker 1: them you know they're on the right papp and stay
Speaker 1: away from that prison that revolved and throw it when
Speaker 1: I called it, you know, wait for young people, you
Speaker 1: know my main thing and now focused on this uh,
Speaker 1: trying to get some beers paid for others allaries for
Speaker 1: those who was inconcerating wrong with in prison that they
Speaker 1: don't wanta have to go through the struggle that I
Speaker 1: had to go through. While I'm out, you know, I
Speaker 1: want them to have some type of conversation. I definitely
Speaker 1: want to try to make sure that this is so
Speaker 1: security issue is resolved. We need help and we don't
Speaker 1: have it. That's my thing and that's what I'm working
Speaker 1: on that. I want to stay with it. But I've
Speaker 1: been fighting for justice every since I've been out. Because
Speaker 1: it wasn't for them in terms being there to help
Speaker 1: try to get me out, I wouldn't be out. So
Speaker 1: I want to try to be there when them guys
Speaker 1: get out and then me and turn and get them out.
Speaker 1: I want to be there when trying to help them,
Speaker 1: you know, transition back into side because it was an
Speaker 1: alary that helped meant transition Cavin Johnson and my wife
Speaker 1: and Aim because that put a long leaning on him,
Speaker 1: you know. And when for aiming my way, I probably
Speaker 1: would have scruggled harder and that wold s. I'm steal
Speaker 1: with Anson project Sam team going away eight teen years now.
Speaker 1: I steal by Nicole. You know, Dan's Friday got more
Speaker 1: people's out, you know, And we thank you Aim for
Speaker 1: you how to support you gave both and making what
Speaker 1: it is today. Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff
Speaker 1: Clyvern and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lila Robinson. The
Speaker 1: music in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast,
Speaker 1: and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at
Speaker 1: Lava for Good. On all three platforms. You can also
Speaker 1: allow me on both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason
Speaker 1: flam Raleval Conviction is the production of Lava for Good
Speaker 1: Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one h