1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: At around six am on October twenty fifth, nineteen eighty six, 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: and twenty five year old woman was abducted by a 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: stranger at a bus stop, assaulted, raped and sodomized, then 4 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: dragged at two different locations where the assault continued. The 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: assailant stole her wristwatch and broke her two front teeth. Miraculously, 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: the victims survived that a rape kit was performed. However, 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty six, DNA testing was still in its 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: infancy and erology offered little of probated value. The officer 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: who eventually made the arrest approach Clarence Harrison, a man 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: who had a previous conviction as an accessory to a 11 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: robbery involving a woman at a bus stop. When asked 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: about the victim, whom he knew from the neighborhood, Clarence 13 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: said that if he heard anything, then he would forward 14 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: that information to her family, not the police, an answer 15 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: that seemed to annoy the officer. While fabricating a story 16 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: about a confidential informant having seen Clarence selling the victim's wristwatch, 17 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: that officer included Clarence in a BOTO lineup. The assailant 18 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: was a stranger, and the victim knew Clarence, but she 19 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: said that the assailant looked like Clarence. After some time 20 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: and perhaps a great deal of pressure, she eventually identified 21 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: Clarence and sealed his faith. With the advert of DNA 22 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: testing and motions filed to finally uncover the truth, came 23 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: reports that the ripe could had been destroyed. Along with 24 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 1: it seems Clarence's hope for relief from a life plus 25 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: forty years sentence for a crime he simply did not commit. 26 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today's 27 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: story is the story of Clarence Harrison, sentenced to life 28 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: in prison plus forty years. I always wonder about what 29 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: those extra forty years are for. Is that if you 30 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: come back to life, you do another forty It's all crazy, 31 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: But life plus forty years in Georgia and the state 32 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: of Georgia for a crime you didn't commit, Clarence. Before, 33 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: I introduce our other distinguished guest today. First of all, 34 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: I just want to say welcome to the show. I'm 35 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: glad you're here. 36 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you. Van Biden. 37 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: To me and with us is Amy Maxwell. And Amy 38 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: is a Senior District Attorney in the Fulton County District 39 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: Attorney's Office. But before you jump to conclusions, she's actually 40 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: the head of the Fulton County Conviction Integrity Unit and 41 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: the former executive director of the Georgia Innocence Project. And 42 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: what a resume that is. Amy, Welcome to Rafel Conviction. 43 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me. 44 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: And I read an incredible quote from you, Clarence where 45 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: you had said that, and this is a direct quote. 46 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: After a year or so in prison, you get burned out, 47 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: and you fall off into the system, and you lose 48 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: faith and your hope, and you begin to believe you'll 49 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: never get out. And that happened to me. 50 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 2: Well, I had been in there a few years. First 51 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: few years, I got strung out on trying to prove 52 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: my answer. But I got burnt out and kind of 53 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 2: love faith in the system and God and everything, and 54 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: just thought maybe with life selling twenty and plus twenty, 55 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: you know, I was gonna live and die in prison, 56 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: you know. And I tried to, you know, accept that's 57 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: where my life gonna be. So I shipped the outside 58 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: world out. I called it it's so called free world, 59 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 2: and I called the prison life in my life. That 60 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: was the real world to me. 61 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: It's always amazing to me when when people like you 62 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: were able to come out of that dark spiritual hole 63 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: that you were in and how you did it is 64 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: an amazing part of the story. We're going to get 65 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: to that, but let's go back to the beginning. So 66 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: you born in Georgia. What was your childhood like. 67 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: I am a pretty decent young man growing up. I 68 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: was a cub scout, a boy scout, you know. But 69 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: as I got older in high school, I started doing 70 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: drinking and gama, so I became a post a gammel 71 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: playing cards. I like to play poker, black jack, whatever 72 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: kind of gambler war. I just liked to gammebl sadly say, 73 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: I think they come from cause just don't remember I 74 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: have with my father who ran a boot leg house, 75 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 2: in a gambler house and got throwed out of school 76 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: because I wasn't doing right in school. Well, I got 77 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: married early, just turned eighteen, had two daughters, and my 78 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: first wife she had a daughter, so I had three girls. 79 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: That's a lot, especially for somebody at a young age. 80 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: And I had my own struggles with gambling and drinking 81 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: as a kid. So I can relate to that, but 82 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: I was very lucky to never get into the type 83 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 1: of serious trouble that you got into. From what I understand, 84 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: some of the people you were hanging out with at 85 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: the time got you into even more trouble when when 86 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: you were riding around the car unaware of their intentions, 87 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: and one of them popped out of the car and 88 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: robbed a woman at a bus stop there. 89 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: Was in nineteen seventy eight. I didn't commit that crime 90 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: a partner them, did I with him? It's same thing. 91 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: Wait, that's starting to sound like you were wrongfully convicted, 92 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: not once but twice. 93 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 2: I ain't gonna say I was Ronald convicted because our 94 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 2: extra with them all I know we were rad Fashion 95 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 2: stopped the car. I said, Fashion, What you stopping the 96 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 2: cup for? He said, ricksy elite. I said, may y'all 97 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: be not being breaking nobody how He said, no, may 98 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: no leak there you go back there not a little 99 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 2: bat Rick stand to partner going there, lady's may y'all 100 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 2: get that stupid fool. I get out the car, told Rick, 101 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: get it back in the car. You partner going nay thing? 102 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: You know? All them turned state and I'm the only 103 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 2: one went to prison. 104 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: I get that you were with them, so technically that 105 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: does make you an accessory. But still you tried to 106 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: stop your friend, maybe even saved that lady's life. I mean, 107 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: there's a case that we made. Then your friends went 108 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: and saved their own asses, turning state's witnesses and putting 109 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: you in prison for almost six years and leaving you 110 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: permanently on the radar of the local police. So now 111 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: we fast forward to nineteen eighty six. You were a 112 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: twenty seven year old young man, and this awful crime 113 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,119 Speaker 1: happens in DeKalb County, Georgia, also to a young woman 114 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: at a bus stop. Amy, can you fill us in 115 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: on the rest of the details, And a warning to 116 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: our audience, this is hard to hear. 117 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 3: It was the morning of October twenty fifth, nineteen eighty six. 118 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 3: It was really early in the morning, and the woman 119 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 3: had just gotten a job at Grady Hospital, which was 120 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 3: the large public hospital here in Fulton County in Atlanta, Georgia, 121 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 3: and she was standing at the bus stop waiting for 122 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 3: the bus, and it was dark outside and it was raining. 123 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 3: A man walked across the street, walked past her, turned 124 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 3: around and She didn't actually see him come up, but 125 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 3: he came up behind her, grabbed her from the back, 126 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 3: drug her away from the bus stop. He ended up 127 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 3: actually dragging her to three different locations where he assaulted 128 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 3: her repeatedly. It was horrific, probably forty five minutes to 129 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 3: an hour of being constantly abused. He'd abuse her one place, 130 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: he'd drag her someplace else, assault her again. It was 131 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 3: It was horrible, and he ended up hitting her in 132 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 3: the face and knocking out some of her front teeth. 133 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 3: He ends up leaving her. I don't know if he 134 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 3: thought she was dead or what, but he left her, 135 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 3: and she's, you know, of course, completely nude. She tries 136 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 3: to flag down a car. The first car just drives 137 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 3: right by her, but the second car does stop and 138 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 3: help her. She ends up going into the hospital. They 139 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 3: took a sexual assault kit, which of course ends up 140 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 3: later being extremely important. And as far as how Clarence 141 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 3: became a suspect, what the police said was that some 142 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 3: confidential informant had told them that Clarence was trying to 143 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,559 Speaker 3: sell a woman's watch, and one of the very few 144 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 3: things that the rapist took from this woman was her watch. 145 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 3: So the police and court say that's how we got 146 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 3: to Clarence because Clarence was trying to sell a woman's watch. 147 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 3: Later we find out that wasn't at all true. The 148 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 3: police officer actually admitted that he made that whole story. 149 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: Up right, and they and they just decided it was him, right, 150 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: the guy who had previously been an accessory of robbing 151 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: a woman at the bus stop. So, Clarence, what were 152 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: you up to on the night before and into that morning? 153 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: I was directly cross street from my home at a 154 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 2: friend of mine's house. He ran a boot leg house. Well, 155 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 2: we'd go over there and buy beer and stuff, and 156 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 2: we usually play cards overout every weekend. Now playing call 157 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: for a few hours there into the ear of the morning, 158 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 2: elect to getting daybreak, and I told my heye man said, 159 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 2: if it'd be day Brad gets up in and get 160 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: ready to go home. They had to be around about 161 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 2: five six o'clock in the morning. And that's how walking 162 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 2: Old Mount and opening the door. And I've seen a 163 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: guy walking the street in the holler ed methad, Hey 164 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: what your head? Man? He said? He said, we're going 165 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 2: to the bus stop. I said, the bus stop, I say, man, 166 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 2: I said, you got a couple out for the bus 167 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: r on man. I said, it's the weekend. If you 168 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: want to man, come over there and stand up on 169 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: the poet. He said no. He said, I guess I'm 170 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: going on the walk. I said, you better start running it. 171 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 2: I looked like if in the pole down rain. I 172 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: went in the house. So next morning, my mama come 173 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: in the room and wake me up and stuff and 174 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 2: asked me to go to the store for And as 175 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 2: I walking back from the store, I see a car 176 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 2: that looked like a police car. And he stopped me. 177 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: He say, and you cleaning her? I said yeah. He said, 178 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: you living in the house right there? I said yeah. 179 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: He said, did you see anyone go up there street 180 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: last night? I said, I seen somebody go there this morning. 181 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: He said, do you know who you were? I said, now, 182 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: I don't know. I know he ain't from around here. 183 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: I said, what's up? He said, a lady got robbed 184 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 2: or down philth Avenue victim last night with Dunk. I said, duncan. 185 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 2: Now you got to be telling my ken and hair 186 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: Dunk and them sister to wear them own the dunkeys 187 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 2: in the area. I know everybody in the areage like that. 188 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: So he said, well, if you see the guy, let 189 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: me know. I say, well, if I see the guy 190 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 2: lit ken and hair with them, though, and if they 191 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 2: want you, they'll let you know like that. He said, 192 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 2: you ain't gonna tell me. I said, oh, hey, man, 193 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 2: I don't want to have no dinner with no police. 194 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell them and let them tell you that 195 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,839 Speaker 2: said that. They sister. He said, okay, I see as man, 196 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,719 Speaker 2: you're the police. You can do what you want to do. Man, 197 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 2: I said, I'm going to go on, and I walked on. 198 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: Chi hell, I got you and how. I told my sister, 199 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 2: you know what the police had said and asked me. So, 200 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,599 Speaker 2: she said, well you better watch him cause you know 201 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: who that is. I said, yeah, I said, Dawson's like that. 202 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: She said yeah. 203 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: And it turns out that this Dawson guy is the 204 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: same cop who picked you up on that robbery back 205 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight. Oh yeah, yeah. So what happens next? 206 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 2: A couple days later, come back to the how. I said, hey, 207 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: he's uh, you see that guy, little man? I said, 208 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: I told you, man, if I see I'm gonna lit 209 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 2: ken and hair with them, No, you know, I said, 210 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 2: I don't even know who that dude was. He don't 211 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: love over. He said, so you're not gonna tell me? 212 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 2: May I tell them? I ain't telling you nothing. He's 213 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: all right, I'm gonna see you. I said, all right, 214 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 2: I just told you man, you the police do what 215 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: you want to do. He left again. Next time he come, 216 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: they come back with a woman. Said, had a woman 217 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 2: from my rest for arm rabber. My sister said, can 218 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 2: I see the one? He said, yes, look at the 219 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 2: war and said this thing got raped, robbery and kidnapped it. 220 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: I said, who what do I on raping the rod 221 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 2: like that? And when I said that, my niece came 222 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 2: out of the room said, claim who you know? 223 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 3: Ray? 224 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 2: I said, girl quit being said I ain't raising. Nobody 225 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 2: left like that, and my sister said it got dunking on. 226 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: She said, I said the only doctor over, that's who 227 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: they got to be talking about. So she said, I'm 228 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: finah calling. So she called the victim and said she 229 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 2: asked the victoms that you said my uncle the one 230 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 2: was supposed to rate you. And she told the police 231 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 2: said she said that she didn't say that he raped them. 232 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 2: She said there was somebody that looked like him. And 233 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 2: when my niece told him that he snatched the phone 234 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: from her, when he snapped the phone her, I snapped 235 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: the phone him and told him, no snap, no phone up. 236 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: I said, man, you don't pay no bill. He's I 237 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 2: told you what you come and go with me. He 238 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: snapped me in, put the handcuffs on me, and took 239 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 2: me to the police station. 240 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: So you're gonna take it away by the same guy 241 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: who arrested you for the nineteen seventy eight robbery, who 242 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: you haven't been all that helpful to in this incident, 243 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: and the probable cause that they used for the arrest 244 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: want we come to find out was a totally made 245 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: up story about a confidential informant who told them about 246 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: Clarence selling the victims watch. It's too bad that it 247 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: is nineteen eighty six and d theay testing is still 248 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: as fledgling stages, because otherwise we may not be having 249 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: this conversation and you never would have been subjected to 250 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: this misery at all. So is one of the theories 251 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: that it may have been this guy that Clarence saw 252 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: walking down the street at five or six in the morning. 253 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 3: Well, that's one option. There are some other people that 254 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 3: were in the neighborhood it could have been. Unfortunately, when 255 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 3: ultimately the DNA is tested, it doesn't tell us who 256 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 3: the actual perpetrator was. 257 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: Right, And as Clarence's niece heard over the phone from 258 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: the victim that she said it looked like Clarence, not 259 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: that it was Clarence. And this awful crime definitely happened 260 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: to this poor woman, and this is definitely a stranger 261 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: on stranger crime. The victim did not claim to have 262 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: known the assailant, but she definitely knew Clarence. So what 263 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: happens to turn this towards Clarence in the face of 264 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: this overwhelming evidence of the countrary. 265 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 3: They ended up getting an identification from the victim. She 266 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 3: said that she was absolutely certain it was Clarence Harrison. 267 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 3: And from there it's snowballs. 268 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: And we know that in the heat of the moment 269 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: victims of violent crimes, their perception is notoriously unreliable. Eyewitness 270 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: missed identification, after all, is one of the main causes 271 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: of wrongful convictions. But it's really super odd because the 272 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: victim said she didn't know the assailant, but you knew 273 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: her well. 274 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 2: But Brudnaym just fad that the victim knew me, so, 275 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 2: but she said she didn't know the person who committed 276 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: the client. I've been to her house and she'd been 277 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 2: to Mahal with folk. 278 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: So we don't know what kind of tactics they use 279 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: to make that turnaround come about. But whatever it was, 280 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: it certainly feels like she was re victim. But a 281 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: rape victim identifying you is pretty much all it takes, 282 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: I mean, absent some sort of powerful exculpatory physical DNA 283 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: evidence or something like that. And now comes the arraignment. 284 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 3: And unfortunately Clarence was poor, right, he didn't have the 285 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 3: money to hire a lawyer who could jump on the 286 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 3: case right away. After he was arraigned, the judge literally 287 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 3: there was a lawyer that was just there in the courthouse, 288 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 3: and the judge appointed that lawyer the case. 289 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 2: And the jewid told me that he was assigned him too. 290 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 2: He said, no, you're run, I got a full case. Low, 291 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: I can't Henley case. He said, well, I'm gonna send 292 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: you to this case. And they were going back and forth, 293 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 2: so a bencher the jew to sign the man representment, 294 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 2: and they were talking to the police off were trying 295 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 2: to tell how I become a suspect? And now he said, 296 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: identified my photograph. He said, how did the big Tom 297 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: identify for prior to the victim identified in the photograph? 298 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: He said, well, he went through hundreds of police truck. 299 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 2: He said, well, prior to that, how did the defender 300 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: become a suspect? Then he said somebody defender had a 301 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: past similarity offense? And I told him, I said, well, indeed, 302 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 2: kind of case where y'all saying rapiers and all this 303 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 2: old stuff. Don't y'all for their fisical ebdence and stuff 304 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 2: like that? There, I didn't do some type of testing thing. 305 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 2: So Jeorge said, so, what you requesting blood simptom? I said, 306 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: I'm requesting whatever testing you need to prove my answer 307 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 2: because they ain't dead nothing. So Jeorge said, well, I'm 308 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: gonna recommend that you would do blood testings since your bone, 309 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: I said, said, who are born? I said, I don't 310 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: want no bond with y'all. Let me go, because I 311 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: ain't dead, nohing. But I didn't. I ain't meaning to 312 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 2: turn the bone. 313 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: Now. 314 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: I want him to know that I ain't done anything, 315 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: you know. But he took that like I was denying 316 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: the bone and stuff, so they denied me a bone. 317 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: So you've got a lawyer who's argued that he has 318 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: a full case load and doesn't even have the time 319 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: to take your case on. Well, at least he was 320 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: honest about it. But it didn't matter. Your trial happened 321 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: only about three months later, so there was no chance 322 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: for any real investigation to bolster your defense, and none 323 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: was done. 324 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 2: Well, you know, the sayd Poe with my lawyer, because 325 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 2: when I first come in in the courtroom and I 326 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 2: wassuring the lawyer, the peoples in the courtroom who was 327 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 2: at being a house wore the one were playing cord 328 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 2: that could testify. And lawyer told me said, well, his 329 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: defense wasn't to prove my owns. His defense was allowed 330 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 2: the state the opportunity to prove me guilty, you know. 331 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 2: And I said, prove me guilty? I said, well, are 332 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 2: you gonna prove me giltfu where you canna prove I 333 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: ain't do it? He said, he didn't do it an 334 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: investigation to prove my owns. His investigation was allowed the 335 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: state the opportunity to prove me guilty. 336 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: Wow, that's so, that's why. 337 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: The number of the people who were at the court 338 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: game were called other than the one the state called. 339 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: The state also called the victims brothers, who confirmed that 340 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: the assailant was supposed to have been a stranger and 341 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 1: that you were not a stranger. Then you had the 342 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: logical testing, which really your only hope there is that 343 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: the actual perpetrator has a different blood type from you 344 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 1: and the victim. But in this case, the rology expert 345 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: testified some misleading nonsense that he was able to exclude 346 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: like twelve percent of people and Clarence could not be excluded, 347 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: which sounds like something, but if you just take a 348 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: second and rewind this, you'll realize that it simply means 349 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: that Clarence was one person in eighty eight percent of 350 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: the male population who could not be excluded, right, so 351 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: basically almost everybody could not be excluded. It's a ridiculous statement, 352 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: but it was effective. I'm not sure how much difference 353 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: it would have made with the victim having identified him. 354 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 3: The jury had a witness that took the stand and 355 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 3: said that is absolutely him, and we had evidence that said, yeah, 356 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 3: he could have been. He was in that eighty eight 357 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 3: percent of the population. He wasn't excluded there, and that 358 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:56,719 Speaker 3: was enough for the jury. 359 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: Clarence, how long did the jury deliberate and what was 360 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: going on through your mind? Now we're up. This is 361 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: March eighteenth, nineteen eighty seven. 362 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 2: I think it was less than two hours. But I 363 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: was believing in the system at time. I really believed 364 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 2: that the system worked and that it was impossible for 365 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: them to find me guilty. It wasn't about two hours. 366 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: They called me back up staff. When I got up there, 367 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 2: they said they found me guilty. And then George, something 368 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 2: sends you the life plus twenty plus twenty. But I'm 369 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 2: standing around. I'm looking for this hero to come and 370 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: correct this air, you know, because somebody always come and 371 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 2: correctly when they do wrong like this. But then I 372 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 2: turned around. When I looked back, I saw my mom crying. 373 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 2: And when I see my mother crying, and I realized 374 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 2: these folk one took my life away. Well, when I 375 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 2: first entered in the prison system up, I got a 376 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 2: letter from some uh intern from Century Ministry. They thought 377 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: I was a classic case of wrongful conviction. So they 378 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 2: told me, said, well, there's a new study being done 379 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 2: called DNA, and they suggested that I can tell my 380 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 2: turning to a quest to have all the eldescemac case 381 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 2: preserved and save future DNA testing. Well Man Turner wrote 382 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 2: me back and said that the district Turner said that 383 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: all the Eldence Macca been removed and destroyed. 384 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've heard that one before, but okay for the 385 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: time being. What else were you up to? Well? 386 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 2: Prior to that, I had been trying to work on 387 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: my own case, reading them, trying going back and forth 388 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 2: over my transcript, trying to reading and stuff. Once did 389 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 2: I seen a guy working on another guy case and 390 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: asked him what he was doing. They told me he 391 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 2: was a chaining lawyer. Said he was pretty good. His 392 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 2: name was Robert Burston. The guy was very good with 393 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 2: briefs and haby corpy and asked him look at mine. 394 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 2: He told me, if I help him, I told him, yeah, 395 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 2: so hed him. Transcript be too. I say, man, hold 396 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 2: of man, I can't read that good. Now you want 397 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 2: me to read it something? He said? I tell you what, then, 398 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 2: if you go back to school up there and learn 399 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: how to read and stuff, I'm gonna help you get out. 400 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: You're like that, I said, ain't no problem, do so 401 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 2: I ques add My counsel put me back in school. 402 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 2: It wasn't that I couldn't read it, just as I 403 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 2: never exercised. Because after I got back in school, I 404 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: ended up getting my ged in nine months got into 405 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 2: a college program. During that time I was in college, 406 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 2: I started helping him out and stuff, and he told 407 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 2: me about para legal course that I could take through 408 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 2: the mail, and I was reading open transfor going through 409 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 2: the books and stuff working on the case. After all this, 410 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: I learned how to shepherd the edication and stuff like 411 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 2: the guy worked on the writing brief and stuff. And 412 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 2: from that point on I got dog gonna learn how 413 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: to try to get out. Well, that didn't help all. 414 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 2: I know. My mother passed. When my mother passed the 415 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 2: DNA ben to that, I gave up. So I except 416 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 2: that I was gonna spend the rest of my life 417 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 2: in prison. 418 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: You know, Clarence, My understanding is that you found hope 419 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: in a very unexpected and sort of serendipitous right, which 420 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: was when another prisoner was talking to his girlfriend and 421 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 1: handed you hit the phone. And this was when you 422 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: were really in the dark place, as you described, right, 423 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,400 Speaker 1: And on the phone was the girlfriend's mother, whose name 424 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: was Evonne Zeller's. I would love if you could just 425 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: share a little bit about that. 426 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 2: Yes, I started putting down poker games in the dumb 427 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 2: tour stuff. You know, guys play poking stuff. One of 428 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 2: the guys that man, said, how about how I knit 429 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: my mother in love? Man, she's trying to jone with. 430 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 2: I said, hey, man, I said, ain't you know I 431 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 2: don't have the most so called free world folks like that? 432 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: He had me in the phone thing. I get on 433 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 2: and I start. I said, what's up, little lady? I said, 434 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 2: what's your problem? She said, what's your problem? And I 435 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: started teasing with the having phone, you know, and all 436 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 2: of a sudden, you know, I'm talking, and she said, man, 437 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 2: you crazy? Man. I said, ain't crazy? You crazy? You know, 438 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. She said, what's your EM number? 439 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: What you want my numbers? I'm gonna write you, and 440 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: you're gonna write me. Well, she started sending me these 441 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 2: Bible scriptures, and she was coming to business stuff. She 442 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 2: was witnessing to me. She wasn't trying to date me 443 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 2: anything like that, but she was trying to witness to 444 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 2: me with Bible scripture. And one day I was sitting 445 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 2: there playing poke and stuff. Now and they had put 446 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: the new dudes in the room. He was a Christian, 447 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 2: always reading the Bible in the room stuff, and I 448 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 2: be damned there every day. So one day I asked 449 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 2: him what she could send me them? Scripture she wants 450 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 2: you to reply back to. I said, how you gonna 451 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 2: reply back to this? He said, you got to read 452 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 2: the Bible. I knew it was a trick somewhere, you know, 453 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 2: So I had to do. I said, I do you 454 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 2: reply to the things? He told me how they do 455 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 2: and things. So I started reading a little bioul scripture 456 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: and writing. All of a sudden she come and visit 457 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 2: me and tell me about the new program they got 458 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 2: called the George Anderson Project. She said, matter of fact, 459 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 2: what you in for by send them a transcript? That's 460 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: me who they're talking about. They said, I supposed did it. 461 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 2: They don't say you did that, they said, the lady said, 462 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 2: or somebody. They don't say who did it. I said, 463 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 2: I know they trying to say I did that. She said, Man, 464 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 2: you know what, I'm gonna get you a lawyer. I said, now, 465 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 2: you superwoman, you already got two jobs, always talking about 466 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 2: your bill thing. Now you want to get another job 467 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 2: for me? And sure, enough she got a third job 468 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 2: washing dishes, and she had that lawyer and I told 469 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 2: him I wanted him to find the DNA evidence in 470 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 2: my cake. He went on and we looked for it. 471 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 2: He said, well, there was no evidence of the evidence 472 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 2: being destroyer, and if there was no record the evidence 473 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: ex this, well Lloyd kept looking for it. That's when 474 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 2: I wrote the George Enson Project. When they found evidence, 475 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 2: it was a whole new ball game. 476 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,479 Speaker 1: You know, yep, a whole new ball game. It was. 477 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: So I think it's safe to say that Yvonne was 478 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: able to rekindle your hope and the story, your faith 479 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: and focus on freedom and amy. The Georgia Innos project 480 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: was brand new at that time, right, So tell us 481 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: about taking Clarence's case and what it took to get 482 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: him out. 483 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 3: Clarence was the twenty first letter we received. So he 484 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 3: wrote us very very very early and getting it started, 485 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 3: and every one of his letters was compelling. From the beginning. 486 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 3: He wrote very specific, very detailed information, explaining, you know, 487 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 3: like this is what they said, this is what was real, 488 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 3: this is where I was, this is And then he 489 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 3: started sending us bus schedules that he had gotten, diagrams 490 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 3: of the scenes. I mean, this man clearly was trying 491 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 3: to figure out how he ended up in prison. So 492 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 3: we started looking at the case and it was a 493 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 3: really odd case and at many many points we could 494 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 3: have just said no, like he had had an appeal, 495 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 3: he had had DNA testing done. But it was weird 496 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 3: because they said they could not test the evidence because 497 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 3: of the way the slide had been stained, and that 498 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 3: made no sense to us. And we asked experts and 499 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 3: they're like, uh, that's not a thing. You know, We've 500 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 3: been staining slides the same way since we started stating slides. 501 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 3: It doesn't prevent testing. So we're like, okay. And then 502 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 3: the district's attorney had reported that the evidence had been destroyed, 503 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 3: that it was gone. But there were things that bothered us, 504 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 3: and we knew that there was the potential just because 505 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 3: you say you destroyed it, you got to prove to 506 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 3: me you've destroyed it, right, You got to have a 507 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 3: piece of paper show me you've destroyed it. So we 508 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 3: just kept on and kept on, and one afternoon I 509 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 3: sent an intern, Laura of Aducci. I'll never forget Laura. 510 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 3: She went to the DA's office and I said, just 511 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 3: go look and see you know what kind of documents 512 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 3: they have, you know, just go through their file. And 513 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 3: I get a call from her. She says, Amy, there 514 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 3: is a brown paper bag in here and it's marked evidence. 515 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 3: She goes, I can't really feel and I'm not trying 516 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 3: to do anything, but it feels like that, you know, 517 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 3: there may be slides and things in here, and I'm like, 518 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 3: this was my very first case, right, So I'm thinking, 519 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 3: oh my god, they're going to try to hide this 520 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 3: because they've already said it was destroyed. They're going to 521 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 3: destroy it. What am I going to do? So I said, 522 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 3: just put the lid on, don't say anything, and get 523 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 3: back over here quick. So she did, and we immediately 524 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 3: typed up the motion to have it tested, and at 525 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 3: that point the DA realized, oh my gosh, we really 526 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 3: do have the evidence, and they did not oppose testing. 527 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 3: We sent it to a private lab, and after they 528 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 3: did their testing, the order said that the lab was 529 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 3: supposed to tell both parties, and the head of the 530 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 3: lab thought that meant he had to tell us both 531 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 3: at the same time. So he called me and he said, 532 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 3: I think you need to go to the DA's office. 533 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 3: I've got the test results, and I'm like, well, tell 534 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 3: me what they are. He goes, no, I have to 535 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 3: tell you both. At the same time, I'm like, oh 536 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 3: my gosh, tell me right now, what is it? He goes, Amy, 537 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 3: I would hurry to the DA's office. I'm like, okay, 538 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 3: I'm on my way. So we called the DA and 539 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 3: you know, he had his people in the office with us, 540 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 3: and we get on the phone and the doctor said, yeah, 541 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 3: Clarence Harrison is absolutely excluded. And I looked over and 542 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 3: the DA's face just dropped, and I think that, never, ever, ever, 543 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 3: ever did he think this could happen. And he asked 544 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 3: a thousand questions, and of course, you know, there's it's 545 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 3: clear the DNA's not Clarence's. So this was up Tuesday, 546 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,719 Speaker 3: and I said, I'm going to do a press confidence 547 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 3: on Friday'll y'all decide what you want to do. So 548 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 3: I get back and I don't know what's going to happen, right, 549 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 3: So I called the folks up in New York at 550 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 3: the Innocence Project and I said, how long is it 551 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 3: going to take me to get him out of prison? 552 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 3: And Clarence was one hundred and fifty first DNA exonery 553 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 3: and they said it's going to take you anywhere between 554 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 3: six months and two years. And I thought, right, all right, fine, 555 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 3: and so we went down until Clarence and I warned 556 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 3: him it was going to take a very long time 557 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 3: to get him out of prison. And it did not a. 558 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 2: Name your excitement about the resort. 559 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,719 Speaker 3: You ruined it for me, Clarence, you ruined it. 560 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: Wait, so he ruined it almost if there's something that 561 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: couldn't be ruined, how doubt did he ruin it? 562 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 3: Well, that's because Clarence ruined my big moment. So we 563 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 3: actually convinced the Department of Corrections to let us take 564 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 3: a video camera. So we go down and we're meeting 565 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 3: in this lovely conference room and I said, Clarence, we 566 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 3: got the test results back, and he goes okay, and 567 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 3: mind you, the video cameras go in the whole time. 568 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 3: He's like okay, and I'm like, are you ready to 569 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 3: hear the results? And he's like yeah, And I said, 570 00:28:53,520 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 3: well it absolutely excludes you, and he goes okay, no, 571 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 3: no reaction, nothing. I'm like, Clarence, do you understand it 572 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 3: proves that you're innocent? He goes okay and I'm like, uh, 573 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 3: and I'm thinking to myself, did I miss that? He 574 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 3: might be like, I'm not intellectually, you know, there might 575 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 3: be some problems. I'm like, he does he understand me? 576 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: And I said, Clarence, do you understand He goes Amy, 577 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 3: he goes that test was for you. I've always known 578 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 3: I was innocent. So I have the world's most boring 579 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 3: video of telling Clarence he's innocent. 580 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 581 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 2: I was happy. I would happy for you, and I 582 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 2: would happen that now somebody knew that I hadn't committed. 583 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 2: You know, just that alone was enough for me. 584 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: And you were just cool as a cucumber, even though 585 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: you were getting the best I mean, other than maybe 586 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: the birth of your kids just had to be the 587 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: best news you'd ever gotten in your life. 588 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the one didn't go back to my selle. 589 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: When I got back to the drum and I told you, hey, y'all, 590 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 2: I'm finglee y'all. Now, I told y'all, I'm prove it 591 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 2: ain't com meet the crime. The whole dorm lit up 592 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 2: and just started celebrating stuff. We had a little part 593 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 2: in the Dumber Tour. You know, all the guy were 594 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 2: happy for me and stuff. 595 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: You know. 596 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,719 Speaker 2: But uh, I thought I was gonna wait six months 597 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 2: to two you and thing. But on that Friday they 598 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 2: called me and told me I had to go down 599 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 2: to Kodak scared to break something because I didn't know 600 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,239 Speaker 2: what to spect on the outside world. I didn't have 601 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 2: no time. Ain't nobody cheting me upen to get out? 602 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 2: You know, three days, I don't even know where I'm 603 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: gonna leave up to sleep. 604 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 3: That Thursday, without telling me, the District Attorney's office arranged 605 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 3: to have Clarence brought back to the Cab County. So 606 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 3: on Friday, when we had our press conference, the District 607 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 3: Attorney's office stood next to me and said, yes, this 608 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 3: is an innocent man. We're going to get him out 609 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 3: of prison. Everything happened so very fast. So within seven 610 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,479 Speaker 3: days Clarence was out of prison. 611 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: What an amazing thing. And for such a guy as Clarence, 612 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: it's really it's just awesome, and it's it's why we 613 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: do this work. Let's face it, the victories are few 614 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: and far between, and we know we're in for a 615 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: disappointment after disappointment and the system is stacked against us. 616 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: But when we win, man, it's a, it's a it's 617 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: an incredible, incredible feeling. And then then then this takes 618 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: a romantic twist, right yep. 619 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 2: When I got out standing on their coat room when 620 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 2: they released me from from jail, I'm standing up there 621 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 2: with all the report. They asked me what type of 622 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 2: meal and stuff I want? Not told him I wanted 623 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 2: me a full collar, green comb bread, fried chicken, macaron 624 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 2: che tastes it I would name it at all. I 625 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: wanted it too, and uh, they asked me something. I said, Well, 626 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 2: as a first of all, I got to find me 627 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 2: a job because I don't even know where I'm gonna 628 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 2: sleep at it. And I hope if I find you 629 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: a job, it paid me a note so I can 630 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: marriage a little later right here. So I started picking 631 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 2: at her, but I was just teasing wood because we 632 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 2: never chalked for no relationship. She was always there witnessing 633 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 2: to me. So I said, I said, hopefully I'll make 634 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 2: them no money. I can buy the pretty little lady 635 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 2: on rain and she hope she are married. Well, sure enough, 636 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 2: the republic herried that man. We got all kind of 637 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 2: got the wind dress. The rains. 638 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 3: Atlanta came through for you and donated everything. 639 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 2: Seventeen days after I was at least I were married. 640 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 3: You were, and you're still married, aren't. 641 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 2: You're still married and crowded be mayried seventeen years, but 642 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: I was locked up seventeen years and now I've been 643 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 2: married seventeen years. Well a lot back up, wasn't. 644 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:48,479 Speaker 1: Again, Clarence. You didn't just stop what was being declared 645 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: in this You saw it for the state to make 646 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: things right. 647 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 2: Well, my intention was I wanted to buy a lawsuit 648 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 2: for my wronging imprisonment. I had these lawyers, and I 649 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 2: wanted to find out how I got involved in the 650 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 2: king because I was told that, you know, I'm about 651 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 2: to try to prove my answer, you know, before you 652 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: can buy it in type of laws, so that it 653 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 2: was deliberate and intentionally. I said, yeah, with delivery intention 654 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 2: how they gonna came No way had it been in 655 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 2: the liber because you know, I wasn't at the scene. 656 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 2: So the lawyer, I said, got to get the victim 657 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: to admit that it was a mistaken out damn case. 658 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 2: I said, well, name senter of the case. Thing, Well, 659 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: victim identifies somebody. They not gonna go back on their 660 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 2: word because they don't live with that, just as long 661 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 2: as I don't live with being fout to look cute. 662 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: So that ain't gonna help, I said, but I want 663 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 2: the officers. I really believe this man delivery intention that 664 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 2: made me that suspect. And I was chelling Bill Mitchell, 665 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 2: who was my atturney, and I was cheering him. I said, 666 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 2: the man heim the one who responds to me being 667 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 2: in He said, well, not hardly with a police officer 668 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 2: gonna be any help. I said, well, he's a police officer. 669 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 2: And one thing about a police offer their erica. They 670 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 2: think they can't be church. He said, what you mean, 671 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 2: because he erico ning up and he gonna meet and 672 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 2: say he did it. He might tell you what the attitude, 673 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 2: but he arakor enough to do it here think so, 674 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 2: I said, I know so, and sure enough he did it. 675 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 2: Seem there was no unidentified person. Say he's done that 676 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 2: because I had a smart amount. 677 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: Because you had a smart mouth, right, and he ended 678 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,919 Speaker 1: up in prison all those years for basically talking back. 679 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,439 Speaker 1: I mean, it's unbelievable, yep. 680 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 2: But see the theory of that. By me having a 681 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 2: smart amount, that the whole because when you came behind me, 682 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,280 Speaker 2: you already knew who I was, knew where I lived 683 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 2: and everything, so you came looking for me that very morning, 684 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: so he already had none made me a suspect because 685 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 2: I had a pride offense for raw female of a 686 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 2: bus stop and the victim got raped at a bus stop, 687 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 2: and he was the police officer who arrested me back then, 688 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 2: so he figured I was locked up for that, that 689 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 2: I had committed this crime, and he was gonna make 690 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 2: me be that person. 691 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: Right. He had a with you since nineteen seventy eight 692 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: in a crime where you were an unwilling accessory to 693 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: a robbery, so he was already barking up your tree 694 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: before you ever even talked back to him on that 695 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: fateful morning of October twenty fifth, nineteen eighty six. So 696 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: your presence in the photo lineup and everything that followed 697 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: was all this one police officer wanting desperately to send 698 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: a convicted felon back to prison, and he did for 699 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 1: almost eighteen long years. So you ultimately received compensation in 700 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, although nothing would ever repay what 701 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: this guy stole from you, and it was only a 702 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,399 Speaker 1: million dollars for lost wages, much of which is gone 703 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: by now. So from what I understand, you've been advocating 704 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: for exoneries to receive social security with Senator Osov right, incredible. 705 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 2: We're trying to get a be of so security because 706 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 2: when guys get out and stuff. I see you every 707 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 2: guy in that prison, when you go two things and 708 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 2: now you help the bed and everything, them guys ain't 709 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,760 Speaker 2: in no shape to begun up and trying to work 710 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 2: and putting no fifteen twenty years in getting overtiredment. They 711 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 2: won't be able to, you know, because they body broke down. 712 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 2: But it can't get there pinching and thing because doing 713 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 2: old year so security have a zero there of income 714 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 2: ain't being put in there and with that should be replaced. 715 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 2: The couse. Every inmate that's in the prison system works. 716 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 2: It's called detail. If you don't have a detail and 717 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 2: go out to your detail, you'll put in the whole. 718 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 2: You'll punge for not work. So I'm gonna naby get 719 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 2: so security. I can't get my retirement. Y'all stole me 720 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: youth and now you don't want to come stay put 721 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 2: my oldie. You know it missed up. 722 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: It definitely is, you know, And you got me thinking 723 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: i'd imagine that you could fix the social security issue 724 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: through legislation. But if they just ended the loophole in 725 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: the thirteenth Amendment that still allows for the enslavement of 726 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: men and women who are convicted of a crime, well 727 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: then they'd have to pay you for your work as 728 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: well as contribute to Social Security. Right, it'd be two 729 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,240 Speaker 1: problems solved at once. 730 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 2: You hit red on the mind they would will slay labor, 731 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 2: but a slay laborer, right. 732 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: You can definitely argue that an ex honery like yourself 733 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: deserves to be taken care of through retirement for the 734 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: rest of your life, as your ability to earn and 735 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: pay into Social Security was. I mean, it was wrongfully 736 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 1: stolen away through no fault of your own. But ultimately 737 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 1: the question comes down to does the United States still 738 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: support this sort of secret form of slavery or not. 739 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: It's disgusting that we're still benefiting off of free labor. 740 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: Corporations are, and in some cases taxpayers are, especially considering 741 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: the origins of it all. So I'm glad you have 742 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 1: Senator asof support. So we'll be on the lookout for 743 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: developments there. In the meantime that Georgia in this project 744 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: has the support fund set up for exuneries, So if 745 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: our listeners would like to help men and women like Clarence, 746 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: we're going to have that linked in the bio, and 747 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: so please do go to the bio now, don't wait 748 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: because you know we all get distracted and send some 749 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 1: support for some exouneries, even if it's five bucks or 750 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: five million bucks, whatever you got. Just I mean, it's 751 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: hard to think of a better cause. And now we 752 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: turn into closing arguments, where first of all, I thank 753 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: both of you for being here and sharing this remarkable story. 754 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 1: And then of course I'm going to just shut my 755 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: microphone off, keep my headphones on, and listen carefully to 756 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: anything else you feel is left to be said. So Amy, 757 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: let's start with you and Clarence. Please take us off 758 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: into the sunset. 759 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 3: I think that Clarence Harrison taught me to never give up. 760 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 3: Even though he went through dark times, he never gave 761 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 3: up and he always, always, always tries to give back. 762 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 3: He's always great to the new axonneries. He loves to 763 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 3: talk to kids to try to tell them, don't go 764 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,919 Speaker 3: down a path that's going to lead you to being 765 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 3: where I was. And he's always an inspiration, but I 766 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:56,879 Speaker 3: think the overriding thing with Clarences never ever give up. 767 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 2: That do enjoy speaking to kids things and try to 768 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaker 2: encourage them, you know they're on the right help and 769 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 2: stay away from that prison that revolve and though it 770 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 2: is what I called it, you know, for young peoples. 771 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 2: You know, my main thing is now focus on is 772 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 2: uh trying to get some bills passed for other analaries 773 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 2: for those who was incarcerated wrong with in prison that 774 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:23,720 Speaker 2: they don't want to have to go through the struggle 775 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 2: that I had to go through while I'm out, you know, 776 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,760 Speaker 2: I want them to have some type of conversation. I 777 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,840 Speaker 2: definitely want to try to make sure that this so 778 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 2: security issue is resolved. We need help and we don't 779 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 2: have it. That's my thing and that's what I'm working 780 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 2: on now. I want to stay with it. But I've 781 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 2: been fighting for justice ever since I've been out. Because 782 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 2: it wasn't for them in terms being there to help 783 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 2: try to get me out, I wouldn't be out. So 784 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 2: I would to try to be there when them guys 785 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 2: get out and them in turn get them out. I 786 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 2: want to be there. Wouldn't try to help them, you know, 787 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 2: transition back into society because it was an Axlary that 788 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 2: help meat transition. Cavin Johnson and my wife name because 789 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 2: I put a lot leaning on him. You know, it 790 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 2: went for aiming my wife. I probably would have struggled 791 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,760 Speaker 2: harder than I was scruggling. I'm still with the Ansom 792 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 2: Project Seem team on eighteen years now. I still fighting Nicole. 793 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 2: You know. The MS Friday got more peoples out, you know, 794 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 2: and we thank you Aim for all the support you 795 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 2: gave us and making what it is today. 796 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 797 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,320 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wardis, 798 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production 799 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 800 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 801 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 802 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,839 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 803 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,919 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 804 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flaum. Ravel Conviction is 805 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with 806 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one