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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. We have just come out

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Speaker 1: of the courtroom. We've been in there all the morning

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Speaker 1: watching testimony as that pours from the witness stand, and

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Speaker 1: let me tell you something, it has been hot and heavy,

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Speaker 1: with fireworks blasting in the courtroom on multiple witnesses. As

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Speaker 1: you know, yesterday the defense rested with a very emotional witness.

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Speaker 1: It was John Marvin Murdog. That's Alex Murdog's brother. And

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Speaker 1: I've got to tell you this guy was very believable.

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Speaker 1: He was calm. Everything he said seemed to be sincere

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Speaker 1: and heartfelt. I want you to hear the testimony that

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Speaker 1: he delivered from the witness stand. But today, starting this

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Speaker 1: morning with the States from Bottle case, it's been a

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Speaker 1: whole another thing. Lots of fireworks, especially when the defense

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Speaker 1: attorneys would get ahold of the state's witnesses. I really

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Speaker 1: thought there for a moment when the lady medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: doctor Raema, was on the sand, I thought she might

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Speaker 1: just give heart Pootlan a kung fu kick. But she

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Speaker 1: was very restrained even under intense cross examination. But let's

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Speaker 1: start at the beginning. I want you to hear how

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Speaker 1: the defense ended its case yesterday with one of the

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Speaker 1: most believable and poignant witnesses for the defense. It's John Marvin.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen. So when did you first learn that

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Speaker 1: your brother was down at the kennels just before the

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Speaker 1: murders two days ago with the rest of us. No, No,

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Speaker 1: I went into for an interview with SLED. When I

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Speaker 1: told you about where, we talked about the shirt and

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Speaker 1: talked about blood all that. That was the reason for

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Speaker 1: me being there was to hear that audio and I

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Speaker 1: saw the kennel and at that point I heard his

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Speaker 1: voice and I knew. I knew that was him before

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Speaker 1: August of twenty twenty two, at that interview, when you

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Speaker 1: heard your brother's voice at the kennel's and he never

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Speaker 1: told you that he was down there just part of

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Speaker 1: the murders, would you agree that that is not full

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Speaker 1: cooperation by him not telling SLED that he was at

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Speaker 1: the kennel correct? I would say that yes, he lied.

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Speaker 1: You are hearing John Marvin on the stand describing what

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Speaker 1: he knew, and when we come back Ristain, I would

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Speaker 1: like to hear the full cut. Three. Louia is traight

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Speaker 1: out to Eric Brand, high profile lawyer for the Satterfield family, Eric,

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Speaker 1: it never helps. Well, your own brother says you lied, No,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't. This trial now is a referendum on Alex murdole.

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Speaker 1: All the scientific evidence, I think it's out, all the

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Speaker 1: technological evidences input out. In the jury's mind. It's going

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Speaker 1: to come down to what they believe in Alex Murtle.

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Speaker 1: And of course John Marvin was a compelling witness, but

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Speaker 1: he's a slanted witness. And you've done this many times

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Speaker 1: like I have, Nancy. You ask him three questions. Do

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Speaker 1: you love your family yes? Do you love your brother yes?

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Speaker 1: Would it hurt your family and its legacy and reputation

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Speaker 1: if Alex is convicted of a double murder? Yes? And

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Speaker 1: then you sit down because you know what you're going

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Speaker 1: to get when you get a family member. Of course,

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Speaker 1: they're going to rally the troops. So this trial's a

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Speaker 1: referendum on Alex. He's called everybody else a liar, Dick Carputlin,

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Speaker 1: called Ronnie Crosby a liar, called the pathologist a liar

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Speaker 1: this morning. So is the jury going to believe Alex

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Speaker 1: over the twenty other witnesses that have come forward against him?

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Speaker 1: And that's really what's going to come down on this verdict.

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Speaker 1: Has anybody ever told you, Bland that you like to

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Speaker 1: pick the cart with a Howard horse? I have gotten that,

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Speaker 1: yet did not John Mark Marvin murder Ardock was good

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Speaker 1: for the defense. Yes, I agree, he was a good

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Speaker 1: witness for the defense. Now what you just heard was

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Speaker 1: him admitting that his brother Alice Murdock lied, and that

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Speaker 1: he learned for the first time when that kennel video

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Speaker 1: was played. He learned for the first time that all

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Speaker 1: along his brother had been telling him a different story,

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Speaker 1: that he hadn't been at the kennels. But let me

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Speaker 1: go and reverse for just a moment. I want you

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Speaker 1: to hear his description of what he found the Knight

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Speaker 1: of the Murders and our cut three. I could see

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Speaker 1: where Maggie had been, and it was grass, and you

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Speaker 1: know they had covered it up with dirt, so it

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Speaker 1: really was nothing to see where Maggie was. Um. I

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Speaker 1: walked over to the feed room, and y'all have heard

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Speaker 1: the descriptions. Y'all saw it. I've never seen pictures, and

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Speaker 1: I've told him before come to his court, and I

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Speaker 1: was not gonna see pictures. But y'all can imagine what

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Speaker 1: I experienced. It had not been cleaned up. I saw blood,

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Speaker 1: I saw brains, I saw pieces of skull. And when

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Speaker 1: I say brains, it could just be kissue. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what I was saying. It was just it

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Speaker 1: was terrible, and for some reason I thought it was mine,

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Speaker 1: something that I needed to do for Paul to clean

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Speaker 1: it up. And you're you're seeing him on the stand.

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Speaker 1: He is upset, but yet he seems to me to

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Speaker 1: still be telling the truth and he did not lie

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Speaker 1: for his brother about his brother being at the kennels.

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Speaker 1: Matt Harris is joining me, formerly w s OCTV radio

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Speaker 1: host and star of the Murnai podcast. Matt, you have

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Speaker 1: news about the jury. I had got him here, so

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Speaker 1: I missed the very end of it. But thank goodness,

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Speaker 1: my Impact of Influenced podcast partner set Tucker came out

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Speaker 1: and told me right at the end there was an

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Speaker 1: email that the judge had received and he handed both

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Speaker 1: the defense and the prosecution this email. And then someone

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Speaker 1: was with her said she heard clearly either Dick or

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Speaker 1: Jim say something about a juror. And it appeared from

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Speaker 1: this these two people that I just talked to, they

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Speaker 1: came in that they were giving a positive response whatever

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Speaker 1: as they received not the same response from Crayton. Waters

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Speaker 1: and his team. Don't know what it fully means, but

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Speaker 1: they said they will attack it. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: to make of what you said, and you're also cutting

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Speaker 1: in and out all me. Could you just try to

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Speaker 1: give it Jimmy and a bullet. Are you saying there's

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Speaker 1: been jurarm's conduct. Are you saying that one of the

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Speaker 1: jurars communicated with the judge? What are you saying that

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Speaker 1: the judge got received an email and we don't know

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Speaker 1: two He called it up. He gave the emails to

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Speaker 1: both of them, and two people in the court room

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Speaker 1: overheard the defense kind of smiling and said to juror,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what that means when they say it's

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Speaker 1: a juror, but that they said they will deal with

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Speaker 1: it as soon as they come back and they will

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Speaker 1: get both sides. He wants them to take lunch to

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Speaker 1: figure out what to do about this email. So it's

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Speaker 1: more than I mean, who knows what it is, but

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Speaker 1: it sounds like it could be something pretty big, okay

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Speaker 1: to you, Eric Bland. Whenever the judge says will take

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Speaker 1: care of it, that means there's an issue, and if

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Speaker 1: the girar was mentioned in that conversation, that I mean,

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Speaker 1: for all I know, it could be a girar feel

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Speaker 1: sick to his stomach. It could mean ajar fell asleep

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Speaker 1: during some of the testimony. It could mean a gar

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Speaker 1: reported that someone tried to talk to them. This does

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Speaker 1: not mean giar misconduct. And this also does not mean

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Speaker 1: we're losing a girar. You know, to Matt Harris, how

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Speaker 1: many alternates are left, if any two to alter nars left,

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Speaker 1: You're right, it could be nothing. But you know, we

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Speaker 1: only have two alternates left. We're getting down there. And

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Speaker 1: just because Hart, it's like a crocodile smiling. Do you

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Speaker 1: know it's smiling at you? Or is it about to

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Speaker 1: bite your head off? So I wouldn't put a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of stock in the fact that Heartpootley and Nancy smile.

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Speaker 1: Nancy over the knews, are you saying you have more

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Speaker 1: news I do? Last night? You know, I receive a

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Speaker 1: lot of communications from some of my podcast listeners, and

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Speaker 1: obviously because I have the good fortune of being on

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Speaker 1: your show, people recognize me. Now, thank you for that.

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Speaker 1: There is a rumor floating around that one of the

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Speaker 1: jurors has told a coworker during the trial that that

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Speaker 1: juror believes that Alex is innocent, and somebody said that

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Speaker 1: this was going to be emailed to the judge. I

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Speaker 1: have no idea the truth of that, but I think

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Speaker 1: that that could be what Matt is referring to. My

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Speaker 1: understanding is that that has been sent to the judge.

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Speaker 1: But again, that could just be a rumor with no veracity.

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Speaker 1: But I do believe that that could be what matter

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Speaker 1: is referring to. Well, you know what, it's a little

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Speaker 1: too coincidental that you heard that and that now Matt

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Speaker 1: Harris has heard about an email regarding one of the gars.

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Speaker 1: But here's the rub. If the GIRR went into this

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Speaker 1: thinking that Alex Murdogue is innocent, that's absolutely the way

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Speaker 1: it should be because he has presumed innocent until the

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Speaker 1: state proves him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So if

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Speaker 1: he said that prior to trial, I don't have a

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Speaker 1: problem with it. But if he was communicating with a

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Speaker 1: coworker during the trial about this case, that GIRR has

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Speaker 1: to go. They cannot stay on They cannot stay on

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Speaker 1: the panel. It's just that simple. That's the law. Does

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Speaker 1: anybody disagree with that on the panel? Yes? No, okay, yeah, problem, yep,

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Speaker 1: that's the thing. Well, he's out. He's out. If there

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Speaker 1: is any discussion about the case with outsiders that are

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Speaker 1: not on the panel, or any discussion about deliberations before

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Speaker 1: both sides have rested and closings have done, have been done,

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Speaker 1: and the jury charges have been done, if they try

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Speaker 1: to deliberate before that, they're out. There are very strict

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Speaker 1: rules regarding jury conduct. And I can tell you right

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Speaker 1: now if there was a conversation about this trial and

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Speaker 1: this evidence during the trial with a coworker that Jarar

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Speaker 1: is gone. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, let's talked about

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Speaker 1: what we do know. The state is mounting a rebuttal.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut seven. This is Ronnie

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Speaker 1: Crosby on Alex Murdock's original story. Did you all multiple

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Speaker 1: occasions go over in great detail Alec's original story as

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Speaker 1: to what he did on the night of the murders.

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Speaker 1: On more than one occasion, we discussed his story and what,

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Speaker 1: if anything, did the defendant tell you about whether or

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Speaker 1: not he checked Paula Maggie before calling nine one one.

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Speaker 1: My understanding of what he told me was that he'd

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Speaker 1: checked them before he called nine one one. That was

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Speaker 1: clear to me. When was the first time you've heard

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Speaker 1: the defendant's latest story admitting that he was in fact

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Speaker 1: at the kennels minutes before the victims would killed. When

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Speaker 1: I heard that llet was taking the stand, I believe

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Speaker 1: it was last Thursday. I did set up my workstation

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Speaker 1: so that I could watch his testimony, and it would

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Speaker 1: have been when he told you that he was at

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Speaker 1: it kennels. Was the first time that I'd ever heard done. Okay,

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Speaker 1: back to you, Matt Harris story the Murder podcast. Matt

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Speaker 1: Ronnie Crosby I believe is one of his law partners,

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Speaker 1: is he not right? Well? Former law partner, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: former law partner. And so the first time that he

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Speaker 1: had heard the story that Murdoch was at the kennels

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Speaker 1: at the time of the murders. And earlier today I

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Speaker 1: was comparing this to the Scott Peterson case where Scott

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Speaker 1: Peterson places himself at San Francisco Bay. He places himself

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Speaker 1: at the location where his wife's body was dumped. Here,

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Speaker 1: we've got that voice, his voice on the video placing

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Speaker 1: him at the scene of the murderer within about a

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Speaker 1: two to three minute space before the murders, and this

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Speaker 1: is the first time his friend and law partner had

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Speaker 1: ever heard that. I thought that was pretty damning, but

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Speaker 1: I don't know how the jury is taking it. Joining me,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Laura Pettler, forensic criminologists specializing instead murders and statement analysis,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Peler, thank you for being with us. What do

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Speaker 1: you make of the defendant knowing the exact moment to

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Speaker 1: lie about Why couldn't he just told the cops, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I just saw them. I was at the kennel. We

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Speaker 1: were trying to video a friend's dog for the veterinarian

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Speaker 1: and everything was fine, and then I left and I

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Speaker 1: came back and they were dead. Now, how would anyone

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Speaker 1: but the killer know that? That was the critical time interval?

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Speaker 1: Those three minutes is when the murder occurred, right, And

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Speaker 1: you know what, Nancy, With staged murders, it's very different

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Speaker 1: than other types of murder in that if the murder

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Speaker 1: is staged, it's basically telling us that there is a

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Speaker 1: victim offender relationship. And when Alex Murdoch has decided to

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Speaker 1: tell certain people certain things and then omit certain things.

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Speaker 1: It's because it meets his needs, and it meets his

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Speaker 1: needs at the time. But then I think at some

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Speaker 1: point there's some cognitive overload where he begins to get

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Speaker 1: fuzzy into everything he's lied about. So that's where you

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Speaker 1: see that Crosby idea where he told Crosby one thing

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Speaker 1: and then told somebody else something else. So it's all

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Speaker 1: about meeting his needs and the victim offender relationship. You know,

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Speaker 1: sent Tai, doctor Michelle. Do free if you don't mind,

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Speaker 1: because I'm about to get into doctor Reamer, the state's

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Speaker 1: medical examiner on the stand. Man, if looks could have

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Speaker 1: killed Hartpootleian will be dead by now. Now. The word

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Speaker 1: around the courthouse is that Hartpoolian's nickname is poot. But

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Speaker 1: I'm going to stick with Hartpootlian for many many reasons.

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Speaker 1: I'm coming right at you. Chris mcdonnah is with me.

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Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnaugh is a veteran homicide detective, has handled well

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Speaker 1: over three hundred cases and it's the star of the

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Speaker 1: Interview Room. That's his channel on YouTube. Chris, Now, you

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Speaker 1: know that Hartpootlian is a very very tricky character. He's

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Speaker 1: a good trial lawyer. He did not let Crosbie go

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Speaker 1: completely unscathed. Take a listen to our cut nine. And

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Speaker 1: if you're implying that I would come in here and

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Speaker 1: somehow shade truth in any way because of that, that's

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Speaker 1: I would take high offense with that, mister Hartpoutlin. Earned

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Speaker 1: about your high offense? Are you angry and for stealing

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Speaker 1: your money? I have no feeling one way or the other.

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Speaker 1: I have any feeling about Alec Burdock portraying you and

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Speaker 1: stealing your money. You're I admire you. I don't know

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Speaker 1: that I can book beyond that. I have had anger

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Speaker 1: with him, extreme anger, mister Hartpoutlin, because of what he

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Speaker 1: did to my law firm, what he did to his family,

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Speaker 1: what he's did to so many people. But you can't

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Speaker 1: walk around with anger. You have to find a way

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Speaker 1: to deal with it and move forward. If you think

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Speaker 1: I've come in here and told this jury something because

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Speaker 1: of money, when we were talking about two people who

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Speaker 1: were brutally murdered, then you're didn't wrong direction. Maybe you

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Speaker 1: just saw some anger there were you angry? Just a

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Speaker 1: moment ago I thought I knew who Elik was. I

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Speaker 1: did not you know I've got a function, I've got

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Speaker 1: a family. I got to move on with life. Wow.

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Speaker 1: I would say at the end of Crosbie's testimony that

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Speaker 1: he definitely got the best of hart Putleian. And yes,

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Speaker 1: he got angry on the stand. Who wouldn't. But I

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Speaker 1: found something he said, very very telling. He was on

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Speaker 1: the stand and he said, I have a reputation of integrity.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't lie on the stand. It's what he's trying

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Speaker 1: to say. And I guarantee you if hart Putleian had

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Speaker 1: one sintilla of evidence to suggest that Crosbie was not

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Speaker 1: of high integrity and did not have a good reputation,

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Speaker 1: he would have paraded it right in front of the jury.

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Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah, what do you make of having your law

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Speaker 1: partner come in and your brother, your brother who's supporting

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Speaker 1: you by the way, and state that you lied about

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Speaker 1: where you were at the time with the murders. You know,

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Speaker 1: I thought it was a good move on the defense's

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Speaker 1: part because obviously with that exchange, Nancy, we see that

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Speaker 1: he put the not only you know Crosby under the microscope,

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Speaker 1: but his integrity and the integrity of you know, the firm,

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Speaker 1: and so Crosbie had to defend that and by putting

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Speaker 1: John up there, Alex's brother. What struck me with John

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Speaker 1: is his testimony was moving and he was acting very

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Speaker 1: moving emotionally, and he was actually showing emotion. I would

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Speaker 1: love to see that out of Alec in relationship to

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Speaker 1: you know, real emotions. So one thought that I had

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Speaker 1: there that may backfire if the jury had paid attention

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Speaker 1: to that. Yeah, Heart, poor Lean is a courtroom veteran

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Speaker 1: trial lawyer, and he really knows how to stop a

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Speaker 1: witness in their tracks. But it did not work on Crosby. Christine.

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Speaker 1: Could you please play our cut number eight. This is

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Speaker 1: a tiny peak at Hartpoolian's m O, his modus operandi,

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Speaker 1: his method of operation in a courtroom. Take a listen.

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Speaker 1: You don't go around looking for hogs in the daytime

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Speaker 1: because they're nocturnal. From the defendant, did you not or

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Speaker 1: in familiar that that was what was said? Objection, your honor?

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Speaker 1: If it's based on what he's heard or seeing, rule,

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Speaker 1: you always want to be prepared to shoot them, so

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Speaker 1: you would generally have some type of rifle and with

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Speaker 1: you along gun Honor. He's giving an opinion, he's nothing

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Speaker 1: qualified as an expert, and Jack rules that summer I

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Speaker 1: received a call from his son in law. Barrett was

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Speaker 1: in the Mayo clinic with stage four colon cancer. Jaxson

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Speaker 1: was overruled. Barry had some waterfront lots efection your honor. Hearsay,

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Speaker 1: all this material came from somebody else, good c Crosby,

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Speaker 1: Ronnie Crosby, who was a lawyer himself, and hart Pullian

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Speaker 1: would come out with some objection. You see him going,

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Speaker 1: giving him the side eye because he knows that's not

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Speaker 1: a valid objection. Hart Puollian doesn't care. I know exactly

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Speaker 1: what he's doing. He's trying to break up this testimony

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Speaker 1: of an incredible witness for the state, and he's doing it,

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Speaker 1: by the way, but the judge is not showing any ire,

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Speaker 1: at least in front of the jury. He just overrules

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Speaker 1: all of Hartpoolian's objections and keeps going. You know that's

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Speaker 1: I've got to admire him for at least trying Eric

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Speaker 1: Bland to break up good testimony for the state. He's

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Speaker 1: jumping up every couple of minutes, and the more he objects,

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Speaker 1: that tells me the more he likes the testimony. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, you were once a great trial lawyer. I'm

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Speaker 1: not a great trial lawyer. I'm just a trial lawyer.

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Speaker 1: We know there's two ways of dealing with tests, that

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Speaker 1: there's two ways of dealing with damaging testimony. Nancy, you

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Speaker 1: can do what Harpuleian did, which is trying to interrupt

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Speaker 1: the flow and break the rhythm, and then the jury

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Speaker 1: can't focus on what's being said as opposed to just

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Speaker 1: looking at the fighting. Or you just sit there and

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Speaker 1: smile and you act like it's no big deal, and

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Speaker 1: when it's your turn across examinate, you just say no

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Speaker 1: further questions and the jury will say, well, that must

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Speaker 1: not have been damaging testimony. What Ronnie Crosby was doing

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Speaker 1: in that courtroom was extremely damaging to Alex Murtlet because

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Speaker 1: he delivered the eulogy to Alex's son Paul. He has

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Speaker 1: been his longest serving partner friend in that firm, and

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Speaker 1: he's very close to the entire family. It was extremely damaging,

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Speaker 1: and the jury did make a connection with Ronnie Crosby. Okay, guys,

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Speaker 1: now we're going to get into doctor Michelle Dupree's Billywick.

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Speaker 1: Doctor dupres is joining us here in South Carolina. Were

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Speaker 1: camped outside the courthouse right now. She is a forensic pathologist.

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Speaker 1: She is a medical examiner, a former detective, and author

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Speaker 1: of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. And I imagine doctor Dupree,

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Speaker 1: if you heard Demayo mentioned one more time, you're going

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Speaker 1: to do a backflip. Because the defenses tried over and

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Speaker 1: over and over to use that, as we call it,

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Speaker 1: learned treatise regarding shotgun blasts and gunshot wound injuries and homicides.

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Speaker 1: But you know what it's like going into a kitchen

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Speaker 1: and not knowing the difference between the microwave and the

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Speaker 1: oven and the dishwasher. You know you're in the right place,

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Speaker 1: but then you don't know what to do because very

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Speaker 1: often when he tried to throw that book in Rumour's face,

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Speaker 1: she swatted him down like a fly swatter. Well, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, I actually worked with and trained with doctor

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Speaker 1: Demaya in San Antonio, and he is the father of

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Speaker 1: modern pathology, a gunshot wound expert. He's renowned all over

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Speaker 1: the world. That is the bible for us on gunshot wounds.

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Speaker 1: I felt really badly for doctor Rhymer today Harputley and

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Speaker 1: did everything he could to discredit her, but she is

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Speaker 1: absolutely correct. There is no way that this could possibly

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Speaker 1: be a contact shotgun wound to the head. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that I think she's having a little trouble

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Speaker 1: with is explaining what she means. And it's not just

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Speaker 1: the grease that we're talking about. It is, I mean,

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Speaker 1: something we call a doctor dupree. Can I just cut

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Speaker 1: through it and asks if Paul had sustained And I'm

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Speaker 1: certainly no expert like you are, but I do know this.

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Speaker 1: If Paul Murdog had sustained a contact wound, which is

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Speaker 1: touching your skin to the head with a shot gun,

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Speaker 1: not a twenty two, but a shot gun, he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: even have a head. That's just about right, Nancy. We

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Speaker 1: have to remember that she said that the orbital bones,

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Speaker 1: which are where the eyes are, they are so paper

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Speaker 1: thin it's they're like parchment paper. They were not damaged.

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Speaker 1: You know, There's just no way that this could possibly

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Speaker 1: be a contact one. From the angle that she describes,

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Speaker 1: it makes perfect sense. It was tangential. It basically severed

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Speaker 1: the brain stem at the base of the neck. And

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Speaker 1: I'll use a different word, but the brain popped out

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Speaker 1: nearly intact. The brain is approximately two two and a

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Speaker 1: half pounds. It's the consistency of sort of a firm pudding.

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Speaker 1: It popped out nearly intact. A gunshot wound to the

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Speaker 1: top of the head is not going to do that.

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Speaker 1: That brain would be basically mush and like you said,

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Speaker 1: the rest of the head would pretty much not be there.

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Speaker 1: There's just no way this is a contact one. And

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Speaker 1: really to drink everything. Okay, I think I hear blad

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Speaker 1: hold on, Well, I wanted to clear something up. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I just want you to say it again so that

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Speaker 1: everybody like me that's not a medical examiner can understand

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Speaker 1: what you're saying. You said something I think very probative

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Speaker 1: or in other words, that proved something about the orbital

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Speaker 1: bone around the eye, the orbit around the eye. You

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Speaker 1: said that that bone is paper thin and that if

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Speaker 1: he Palmer like have been shot contact wound to the

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Speaker 1: head with a shotgun. Because we see plenty of suicides

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Speaker 1: where people shoot themselves to say at twenty two or

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Speaker 1: a lesser powered weapon than a shotgun, and their head

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Speaker 1: is still there or at least part of it is.

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Speaker 1: What were you saying about the orbital bone and the

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Speaker 1: delicate nature of the orbital bone. How the orbital bones

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Speaker 1: around the eye would react to a shotgun wound, a

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Speaker 1: shotgun blast contact to the head, what would happen to

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Speaker 1: those orbital bones. Now, see, they would be fractured in

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Speaker 1: so many pieces that they may be even indistinguishable. They

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Speaker 1: are so paper thin, they're like parchment paper. And again,

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Speaker 1: it's not just the palates that are going to cause damage,

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Speaker 1: but it's that temporary cavity. If you throw a pebble

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Speaker 1: into a lake, the pebble is the bullet, but the

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Speaker 1: waves that come out from that is a temporary cavity

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Speaker 1: which are filled with energy which disrupts tissue. It can

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Speaker 1: even it can disrupt and do a lot of damage.

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Speaker 1: And there's just no way this could be a contact wound. Well, okay, guys,

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Speaker 1: I want you to jump in. Yeah, I just say,

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Speaker 1: doctor Dupris is explaining this way better than I believe.

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Speaker 1: We got the explanation in there through no fault of anybody,

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Speaker 1: But I think that both of the experts loud out

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Speaker 1: here gave kind of a confusing, not very clear testimony

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Speaker 1: on how they thought it happened. I wouldn't sure yesterday

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Speaker 1: about the guy talking about was he in the feed

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Speaker 1: room or was he not in the feed room? And

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Speaker 1: today I was a little confused about exactly how she

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Speaker 1: was to say how doctor dupri she broke it down perfectly,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not sure they got the jury. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: Nancy from him, go ahead, This is Chris hey, you

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Speaker 1: know thinking with doctor Dupree just kind of ducktail in

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Speaker 1: her thought process. She's a thousand percent right because you

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Speaker 1: now have to move the shooter into a contact position.

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Speaker 1: Right if if if the shooters using a shotgun at

426
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: the top of the head number one, that that means

427
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: the victim has to be lower than that shotgun barrel

428
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: ultimate barrel, and that that puts the shooter into that

429
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: feed room even further the end, when that trigger is pulled,

430
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 1: all of that matter is going to be going in

431
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: a forward position where Paul's body ultimately ended up, so

432
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: you would see it all out there, whereas where his

433
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: positioning was in unfortunately his brain next to him. That

434
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: is much more consistent to a doctor Rumor has been

435
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: testifying and show doctor Dupri is one thousand percent correct

436
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: in my opinion too. Doctor Laura Petler joining as criminologists

437
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: and hosted the Murder Ram podcast. Laura what is the significance.

438
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: Why are the lawyers fighting so rapidly in the courtroom

439
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: to show that Paul was either shot in the head

440
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: or through the arm and it went up. Why is

441
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: that so important to them? Nancy, I think it's important

442
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 1: to them because the state is positing that there was

443
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: one shooter. The shooter was Alex Murda, and he used

444
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: two firearms to kill first Paul and then Maggie. While

445
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: in opposition, the defense is arguing that there could be

446
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: two shooters and that if there were two shooters, it

447
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: was impossible for one person to have done this without

448
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: being covered in material, brain matter, blood skull and then

449
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: turn around, grab another gun and shoot Maggie from a distance.

450
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: And so it's really important for both sides to get

451
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: their points across because they're arguing the two shooter theory

452
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: versus the one shooter theory. But if the defense is saying, yes,

453
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: they're okay, fine, there is one shooter, maybe there is one.

454
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: But if that one was a person that shot Paul,

455
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: shot Paul at a contact range, that person would not

456
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: have had time to get cleaned up and would not

457
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,959
Speaker 1: have had time to do everything else, including Maggie. That

458
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: the state has argued that Alex Murdoch had to do

459
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: because they are really going to the mat on this.

460
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: I want you to hear on cut ten and this

461
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: is doctor Reamer on the stand trying to explain her point. Listen,

462
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: can you please look at the images that you have

463
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: and explain to the jury your conclusions and why that

464
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: defense pathology is incorrect? Who didn't conduct the autopsy? To

465
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: begin with, why he's incorrect. We have the abrasion on

466
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: the left shoulder classical area, and then we have an

467
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: entrance defect in this left side of the face. We

468
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: can see a whole bit. It's a whole, and it

469
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: was a defect in the left temporal lobe of the brain,

470
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: which was included in my autopsy report. That could only

471
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: have happened from that being an entrance went. I physically

472
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: performed the autopsy, and the way I determine direction is

473
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: I have a whole below the left ear which went

474
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: into the brain, and so that's not going to happen

475
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: in the autosite direction. And I understand that people can

476
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: look at pictures does not that's like a two dimensional view.

477
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: But doing the autopsy makes certain information available to the

478
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: pathologist that is not available to an individual not performing

479
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: the autopsy. And I have information in my report which

480
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: was not from which was I guess overlooked. And also

481
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: just a moment, Christine, I want to go to our

482
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: cut eleven where doctor Reemer emphatically states that Paul Murdock's

483
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: wound was not a contact wound to the head. You know,

484
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: I want to ask you this to doctor Michelle Dupree,

485
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: she confirmed over and over, she re emphasized over and

486
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: over that she performed the autopsy, not the defense expert,

487
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: that she saw the body, that she took the measurements,

488
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: not the defense expert, the defense medical examiner, who I

489
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: agree is an expert. You get a lot of murders

490
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: in the inner city Atlanta, but he was judging everything

491
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: off of photos that she had taken, not seeing the body.

492
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: That makes a big difference in my mind. That's right, Nancy,

493
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: because one of the ways that we determined traject is

494
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: we follow that bullet path. And if there's an injury

495
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: in the left temporal low, which is about the middle

496
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: of your brain, then the only way that that injury

497
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: can get there is if the trajectory is from the left.

498
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: As long as there's not another wound on the right,

499
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: and she did not describe that, so obviously it entered

500
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: on the left again. No way that there could be

501
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,479
Speaker 1: something any different. Also, you have to remember there were

502
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: pallet defects up on the door again going left to right.

503
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: No way that those palets are going to bounce backwards.

504
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: That's really important because Eric Bland, we cannot approach the

505
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: knowledge that the medical examiners have regarding the autopsy of

506
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: the bodies. But something we can understand we can wrap

507
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: our minds around, is exactly what doctor Dupree just said,

508
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: the pellet defects on the door. That makes sense to

509
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: me where those defects were in relation to that gunshot.

510
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: You just used your common sense, and that is what

511
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: the jury is going to have to do because they

512
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: have twenty four years and twenty four eyes. Look, what

513
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: these pathologists do is not so much a science as

514
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: an art. It's developed over time. Doctor Riemer has done

515
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: five thousand autopsies, so she has her own methodology that

516
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: may be different from another pathologist. Like she said, it

517
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: doesn't make it right, it doesn't make it wrong. As

518
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: long as my methodology gets to a conclusion. That's scientifically

519
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: and medically based. But you just used your common sense.

520
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: There's not doctors on that jury. They're going to use

521
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: their common sense. And I think what doctor Reemer testified

522
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: to was a common sense trajectory of what happens after

523
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: a bullet and gas or discharge, along with packing material

524
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: to a shell. Now material is important, explain. I agree.

525
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: So the packing material is important because again, it comes

526
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: only when the projectile is entering the body. The packing

527
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: material is not on the exit side of anyone. You're

528
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: talking about the wadding that's used and shotgun, yes, and

529
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: the packing material that's around it, so you would only

530
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: see that on the entry wound, correct, exactly. You know what?

531
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: We could just break it down like that for the jury. Guys,

532
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: I want you to hear the state's medical examiner sparring

533
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: with Hart Putley. You decide who won in our cut twelve.

534
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: I don't see how you know your Yes, it's a

535
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: respected treatise, but this is specific to a contact shotgun

536
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: to happy this is what this is describing. Really well,

537
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: it's fun, you know, it doesn't matter. I can look

538
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: at my photos. I can look at if you're going

539
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: to talk about theory, the photos you're asking the court,

540
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: the instructor to answer the questions specifically. She can, she's

541
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: she goes off on tangents and I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

542
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: You may continue answering the question. You remember what the

543
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: question was. No, that's your question. Is this series of

544
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: shots from the book depicting a contact wound? I think

545
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: that's what I under Yes, I don't give theoretical talks

546
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 1: or you know, I don't start looking up in this

547
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: book while I'm doing an autopsy, used my practical reasoning

548
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: and my experience and knowledge a feat if there had

549
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: been gas in the wound, or when it hit his

550
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: shoulder or his neck, would you expect to find some

551
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: physical manifestation of that, well, they would have been you know,

552
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: a lot more expansion, shoulder expansion. This was fairly contained

553
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace. I don't see how you

554
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: know your Yes, it's a respected treatise, but this is

555
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: is um specific to a contact shotgunound to happen. This

556
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: is what this is describing. Really well, it's fun, you know,

557
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. I can look at my photos. I

558
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: can look if you're going to talk about theory the

559
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: photos you're I'm asking the court to instruct her to

560
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: answer the question as specifically she can. She she goes

561
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: off on tangents and I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you may

562
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 1: continue answering the question. You remember what the question was. No,

563
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: that's your question. Is this series of shots from the

564
00:35:55,239 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: book depicting a contact one. I think that's what I'm Yes.

565
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: I don't get theoretical talks or you know, I don't

566
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: start looking up in this book while I'm doing in

567
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: our touchday. I used my practical reasoning and experience and

568
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: knowledge affect. If there had been gas in the wound,

569
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: or when it hit his shoulder or his neck, would

570
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: you expect to find some physical manifestation of that, well,

571
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: they would have become, you know, a lot more expansion,

572
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: shoulder expansion. This was fairly contained. Okay, well, I've got

573
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: to tell you this. Bland Eric Bland joined me, high

574
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: profile lawyer connected to the glorious Saderfield case. The last

575
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: thing I want is a doctor performing surgery on me.

576
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: That's go look up, look it up in a book.

577
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 1: In the middle of the surgery in oh, and I

578
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: love the way Ramba said. No, I didn't go look

579
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: it up in a book. Look up a picture, I

580
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: could look at it and tell what it was. Right,

581
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: I learned trees and doctor treatise doctor and um Nancy

582
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 1: is if a expert is going to make an opinion

583
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: based on it. Dick was trying to use it as

584
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: a weapon against her, that she should have utilized the

585
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: methodology and that treatise. She said, yes, it's an expert,

586
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: but I didn't use that methodology because my photos showed

587
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 1: it wasn't a contact wound. It was an upward wound

588
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: that had a totally different conclusion that had to be reached.

589
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: She was perfectly within her right as an expert to

590
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: state her opinion, and she believes in it, and it's

591
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: going to be a question whether the jury thinks she's right. Well,

592
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: and sure, Eric's a spot on, yeah, but Eric spot

593
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: on of course. And I think the question is there's

594
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: also besides just the science, there's the emotion and the

595
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,919
Speaker 1: feelings that people have when they're watching this. And Harpulian

596
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 1: going after the doctor like that who comes across it's

597
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: very likable, even though he's depending client could backfire on him,

598
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: not based on any science or anything like that, just

599
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: because hey, why are you picking on this doctor? I like, Well,

600
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: another thing that I noticed in the courtroom, and this

601
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: is something you never want to do. Hartpootlian, as he

602
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: was questioning doctor Reemer on cross examination, he had a

603
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: huge stick in his hand. It's a really tall pointer

604
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 1: stick and almost resembles acoustic a pull stick. And at

605
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: a certain point he was arguing the state was arguing

606
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: about his question. She doctor Reemer was sitting there and

607
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: he was pointing at her and doing the stick up

608
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: and down at her, and she stood there. She never

609
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: flinched or stepped back or anything. But I didn't really

610
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: like that at all. I did not think it was

611
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: a very good optic for Hartpootlian, Nor do I think

612
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: it's a good optic to beat up on a lady witness,

613
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 1: especially she's a very learned, scholarly doctor. At least that's

614
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,439
Speaker 1: the way I took her. And beating up on her

615
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: that way, I don't think it did him any favors.

616
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: I mean, Chris mcdonnaugh, you're a veteran homicide detective. You've

617
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: been in many many courtrooms. If you're going to try

618
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 1: to bully a witness, it could very well backfire on you.

619
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: I tried to never come down on a witness unless

620
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: I had caught them in a lie and then all

621
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: h double l breaks. Lease, But to pick on a

622
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: lady witness this way, I don't think that did any

623
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: many favors. I agree with you, Nancy. And have you

624
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: ever seen in all of your years in the courtroom

625
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: a defense attorney, you know, as esteemed as he is,

626
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: walk in between the expert witness and the state during

627
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: their expert testimony so many times? I mean he was

628
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 1: walking in the well as if he was, you know,

629
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: checking his steps. I'd never seen that in my career

630
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: with somebody who is trying to basically, and my feeling

631
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: was he's just trying to distract the jury even further

632
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: and further away from this expert witness. I had you

633
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: ever seen it? Yeah, Chris mcdonna, I can't believe it.

634
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: I thought it was the only that I was the

635
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 1: only one that noticed that, because I was thinking, if

636
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: Hartputley it had been on my back like he was

637
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: on the district Journey's back during all of this cross exam,

638
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: I would have had to have the judges struck him

639
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: to sit down. He just wandered. Hartputley wandered all across

640
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: the coroom. I thought he was lost, But finally he

641
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: would go in between, as you said, the prosecutor and

642
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: the witness during the questioning. See I could speak to that,

643
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: speak to that. I know what he was doing. He

644
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 1: was injecting himself to the questioning and trying to destroy

645
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: the jury. What go ahead, Eric. He gave a two

646
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: thousand and thirteen interview where he explained his trial technique

647
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: and he said he likes to walk around the courtroom

648
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: and walk through witness testimony to have the jury divert.

649
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: He likes to lay smoke fires all over the courtroom

650
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: so that the jury ends up being confused looking at

651
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: him and not listening to the testimony. This pathologist was perfect.

652
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: She was quirky. You could see her being alone in

653
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: a lab where she likes it. She came across as believable.

654
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: She was wearing white, perfect witness for the state. There

655
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: were times after I tried so many cases, I actually

656
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: enjoyed going to the library and being alone and researching

657
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: and get my facts, am I law together? So you

658
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: know that's what you want out of a medical examiner.

659
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: You want someone that is learned. You want them to

660
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: have a lot of experience, having had done a lot

661
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: of autopsies, and to be articulate and convincing, and I

662
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: found her to be all of those. Was that you

663
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah jumping in or was that Matt Harris? That

664
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: was me, Nancy. I'm sorry, I apologize for stepping over you.

665
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 1: I was going to say, you know, with Crosby's testimony

666
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: about the theatrics of Alec and his father, I'm hoping

667
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,959
Speaker 1: that the jury looks at Harpoolian's theatrics and ties those

668
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: two together because that will, in my opinion, really not

669
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: play out well for Alex Alec in the long run.

670
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, I was gonna say that. You know,

671
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: theatrics are one thing, but when you perceive an old

672
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:02,439
Speaker 1: guy beating up on an educated woman and you, let's

673
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 1: say we have a draw between the two experts. If

674
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: you don't like that attorney and what's happening there, the

675
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: edge goes to them, right, I mean, there's more than

676
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: just science and what is going on in these jurors heads, guys,

677
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 1: there are so many child tactics at work here. I'm

678
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,760
Speaker 1: just sitting back in amazement. But you know, Chris mcdonah

679
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: had it right. It was getting on my last nerve

680
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 1: seeing Hart Pootley and basically five inches behind the prosecutor

681
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: as the prosecutor was trying to cross examine. I was

682
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: very surprised that prosecutor did not ask for him to

683
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: sit down or go where the other spectators were if

684
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: he wanted to see the exhibits. But that said, it's

685
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 1: water under the damn it can't be helped. Now, that's

686
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: what happened with doctor Reemer. But we're forgetting another witness

687
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,720
Speaker 1: that I really liked. Take a listen to our cut thirteen.

688
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: Do you know the defendant alt Murdoch? Yes? I do.

689
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: Have you known him for years? Oh? Yeah, all right.

690
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: Did you ever have a conversation with Alec Murdoch about

691
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: him asking you permission or even telling you about installing

692
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: blue lights in his private Then no, sir, I never

693
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 1: had a conversation with Elic Murdoch. Matter of fact, I

694
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: never had a conversation with anyone in my thirty nine

695
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: years about an installing blue lights in that personal vehicle.

696
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 1: Did you know anything about the defendant claiming that you

697
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: permitted him to do so until he testified to that

698
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: last week? Correct, didn't know anything about it and anything

699
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: about it. Okay, you are hearing a witness that I

700
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: thought to be very, very believable, and it was my

701
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: understanding that this had been the elected sheriff. His name

702
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: is Thomas Smalls. I'm looking back in my notes. He

703
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: goes by TC Sheriff Smalls was with law enforcement for

704
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: thirty nine years and eight months and he just retired

705
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 1: December thirty one, twenty two. Now this all goes back

706
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: all the way to Alex Murdog and his blue light special.

707
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: Remember how we have the photo of Christine. You have

708
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 1: that photo of Alex Murdog trying to badge his way

709
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: into the hospital to influence witnesses after the boat crash.

710
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: We heard from his own testimony he would use his

711
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 1: badge whenever there you go, whenever it was convenient to him,

712
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,479
Speaker 1: and when he wanted a quote, his words, not mine,

713
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: warmer reception by sheriff's or police. Then we found out

714
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,959
Speaker 1: that he had a blue light installed in his car,

715
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: and he said that this witness TC Small. The sheriff

716
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 1: gave him permission and said it was all right, and

717
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: so the state produces TC. Small. He said, I never

718
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: had that conversation about a blue light never Well, the

719
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: defense tried their best to discredit that by name, I mean,

720
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 1: well do you know this guy and that guy and

721
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 1: this guy that guy I guess, to suggest that maybe

722
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: they had authorized it, but almost everyone was shot down

723
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: by TC Smalls. And what this does, in my opinion,

724
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 1: Matt Harris is showing Murdoch lies about things great and small.

725
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean it's just a matter of just

726
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,919
Speaker 1: like little pin here, a little pin there, a little

727
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: pin there, till this big lie balloon pops and when

728
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: you it was a very short testimony, right and straight

729
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: to the point, no confusion about it, just simply he

730
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: didn't tell him to put the lights on. He was

731
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: a sheriff. And when the other guy he listed, Alec

732
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: that said gave him the okay was a guy who

733
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: got thrown off the force for drugs and just some

734
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,479
Speaker 1: bestic abuse, and so he was they'll never find him again.

735
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's just a one lie after another in lies.

736
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: When you are a you know, social sociopath or whatever

737
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: you want to call it, a liar, a liar, a liar,

738
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: you lie about like silly things you don't need to

739
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: lie about. Nancy, Nancy. It goes beyond just he's lying.

740
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: Lord Abbott said power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely,

741
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: and this man has shown that he uses and abuses

742
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: whatever power he has. And I have firsthand knowledge that

743
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 1: he took that badge and walked into an eye hoop

744
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: and flashed it to a hostess to get a table.

745
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: So this is the kind of man we have, you know.

746
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: Maya Angelo says, if somebody shows you who they are,

747
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: believe it. Alex has shown us who he is throughout

748
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: this trial and through when you hear credible witnesses like

749
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 1: this sheriff, Doctor Petler, I find that personally offensive, having

750
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: been law enforcement for most of my practicing legal career,

751
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: that this guy gets a blue light in his car

752
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: with what uses it when he wants to rush to

753
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: the waffle house or using his badge? I mean that

754
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: is it would make more sense. What stop it? Nancy,

755
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: come on, what about it? Petler? I find that very offensive.

756
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 1: I think it's offensive as well. I like you, come

757
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: from the DA's office in my earlier piece of my career,

758
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: and we did not have blue lights, as I was

759
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: a DA's investigator, and none of the DA's in our

760
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: office had blue lights. Either, so, yeah, it's extremely offensive.

761
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,320
Speaker 1: The one thing we always have to remember about Alex Murdo,

762
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: in my opinion, is that he's a very intelligent person,

763
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: but he also has a pathology that Trump's is intelligence

764
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: almost every time, and this time he's fallen short and

765
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 1: being able to cover everything up. He's a master at it,

766
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,439
Speaker 1: and quite frankly, I'm sure there's a lot of people

767
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: who feel like there's many, many things he's done that

768
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: are extremely offensive, including the blue light to all people

769
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: that are in law enforcement and rightfully have a blue light,

770
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: you know, for the right purpose and not a manipulative purpose.

771
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: Matthew the interview room, having been a homicide detective for

772
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: so many years, what do you make of someone that

773
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: misuses their badge and actually has a blue light installed

774
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: in their car as far as I'm concerned as impersonating

775
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: an officer, absolutely, absolutely, Nancy, one thousand percent. And in fact,

776
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 1: one of the other considerations that folks need to recognize here,

777
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: it's not only you know, stolen valor, it is this

778
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,839
Speaker 1: fact that that is a very dangerous thing to do

779
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: because it puts them above the law just by flaunting

780
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 1: it into the public arena. Imagine the things we don't

781
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 1: know about that he did with those blue lights and

782
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: that badge. We used to we had a saying in

783
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: law enforcement, do not wear your badge on your T

784
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 1: shirt ie when you're gone, when you go home, go home.

785
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: But when you wear it, you were proud and you

786
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: wear within the bones of the constitution exactly, you know,

787
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: Matt Harris, take go ahead. We were not allowed to

788
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: take gifts or special treatment if we had a badge,

789
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: and like you had just said, you don't wear it

790
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: or use it when you're not particularly on duty, you know.

791
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,919
Speaker 1: Matt Harris, formerly w s OC and now star of

792
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 1: the Murderich Family Murders. Impact of influence, Matt, it's bigger

793
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: than the badge. It's bigger the misuse of the badge. Correctly,

794
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: it's bigger than getting a blue light. It's about posing.

795
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:51,439
Speaker 1: It's about being what at projecting whatever you think you

796
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 1: have to project in order to get what you want,

797
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: whether it's true or not, To say whatever you have

798
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,439
Speaker 1: to say, to do whatever you have to do, whether

799
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:05,240
Speaker 1: it's right or wrong, to get what you want, whether

800
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 1: it's fake badging a nurse at the hospital or putting

801
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:11,959
Speaker 1: on your blue light when you're in a personal hurry,

802
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: or lying to police or changing clothes or lying to

803
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: Maggie about the peels or the affair or whatever, lying

804
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: lying your way to the point where you're trying to go.

805
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: And that's what I think we see here, right. And

806
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 1: we went with that title impact of influence when little

807
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 1: do we know how true that was going to be

808
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 1: and how it's going to be part of the prosecution

809
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: cases that think they're going to say, listen, this guy

810
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 1: enjoyed those perks. It's not just about being uncovered for

811
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 1: the money. This guy lived that life, loved that light,

812
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 1: and he saw it slipping away. Not necessarily even necessarily

813
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: being backed up against money, that's one thing, but being

814
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,439
Speaker 1: unable to get the good seat of the eye hoop,

815
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: to be able to go to your USC games and

816
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: be the king of the ball, to be able to

817
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 1: walk through town and be Alick Murdoch. That was his

818
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: identity and that's what he was going to lose. And

819
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 1: that is I think a big part of the States.

820
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 1: If you want to use motive. I know they don't

821
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 1: have to have it, but that's what they're gonna pitch,

822
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 1: you know. Eric Bland joining me here in South Carolina,

823
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna throw this to you as well, Doctor Dupree.

824
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 1: Yesterday on the lunch break, when I finished talking to

825
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 1: all of you, I walked for an hour around town

826
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: here in Coleton County and met people, and the breeze

827
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: was blowing. It was a beautiful weather. I didn't meet

828
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 1: a single soul that wasn't friendly and welcoming kind. And

829
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 1: I just wonder Eric if he has any idea what

830
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: he is giving up, through all the pills, through the murders,

831
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 1: through the decision in one moment according to the state,

832
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: to take the lives of Maggie and Paul, and for

833
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: what he's just given up so much if in fact

834
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: the jury finds him guilty, yeah, it is confounding. But

835
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: you know, you're a rational person, and you're trying to

836
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:20,359
Speaker 1: get in the mind of an irrational person, somebody who

837
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: had a problem and engaged in problem solving. And sometimes

838
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: the way people who are in a manic state or

839
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: a paranoid state, or a state that they think they're desperate,

840
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 1: they choose to solve a problem in a way that

841
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 1: would make a normal person like Nancy Grace say, why

842
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,359
Speaker 1: would you ever do that? So I don't think you

843
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: can ascribe your notion of rational behavior or what you're

844
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,760
Speaker 1: giving up and trying to impart that on Alex Myrtle,

845
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: it's a fool's errand Nancy, Well think you're right, and

846
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 1: doctor Dupray. When you think about it, this guy had everything.

847
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:59,439
Speaker 1: He's got, this beautiful wife, two sons. I think blast Cow.

848
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 1: I think they had three homes. I mean, his thriving

849
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 1: practice with law partners that considered him a brother. I mean,

850
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: what more could the man want? Nancy, I think he

851
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,399
Speaker 1: did actually realize what he would be giving up if

852
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: he were caught, if all of this came to light,

853
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 1: which fortunately it actually did. But at the time, I

854
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 1: think that was part of his motive. I think he

855
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: didn't want to give up this prestige, this genteel picture

856
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: of the Old South and the legacy that he had,

857
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 1: and I think that was part of the motive for

858
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 1: trying to cover up his crimes and for doing exactly

859
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 1: what he's done. Definitely a reason for the cover up.

860
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: You know, Matt Harris, the star of the Murderid Family

861
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 1: Murderers Impact of Influence podcast, If you could put it

862
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: in a nutshell, Matt, what would you say was his

863
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: motive for murder. I would say the motive was seeing

864
00:54:55,160 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 1: the life, the image, everything that was as identity was.

865
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: I'm Elec Murdoch, of one of the murdocks a hundred

866
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: one hundred years in this powerful position. I've made this

867
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: name for myself because I'm piggybacking on all the other

868
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: murdocks ahead of me. I've got these houses, i got

869
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,359
Speaker 1: these boats. Nobody can stop me. No one has called

870
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: me on in the lie. Ever, that would be the motive.

871
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: It's about to get crumbling down and he will not

872
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 1: be the big man on campus anymore, and that scared

873
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 1: to be. How does killing Maggie and Taul translate into

874
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: that motive? I mean they were part of the murder.

875
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 1: Is delaying the inevitable? Yepancy, Okay, doctor Laura. Up, doctor Laura.

876
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 1: What is your motive not for the cover up, but

877
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: for the murders. It's very it's very different, as you're stating,

878
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,359
Speaker 1: the murder is different than the cover up, and the

879
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: motive for murder for me is, first of all, the

880
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 1: number one rule about murder is murder is typically simple.

881
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 1: And in this case, I think that we see the

882
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: rise in the escalation of Alex's life falling apart. But

883
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 1: I think he told us what this was about at

884
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,879
Speaker 1: the very onset of the nine one one call. When

885
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 1: he mentioned the boat case on the nine one one call,

886
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 1: that was not something that was necessary to get help

887
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: for Maggie and for Paul, it was just a piece

888
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 1: of information that he was offering. And then when the

889
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 1: police arrived, he offered that same piece of information and

890
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,839
Speaker 1: said that this is about the boat case. And so

891
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 1: for me it was always about that because when statement analysis,

892
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 1: we listened to what the word choices and how the

893
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 1: sentences are structured, and their tone and their idiolect. And

894
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 1: he's told us what this was about Paul. And then

895
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:53,320
Speaker 1: for Maggie, you know from the very beginning when this happened,

896
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,399
Speaker 1: And somebody called me back in twenty twenty one and said,

897
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: you know, why do you think this happened? To me?

898
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: It was like all cost him so much money, and

899
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 1: we know that money and Prestigi is the most important

900
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 1: things to Alex Murdoch. So for Paul to be creating

901
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,280
Speaker 1: all of these problems for him, it created preceding conflict

902
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: between them. No matter what he says, there was preceding conflict.

903
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: We know that fruit through Mark Tinsley's testimony and then

904
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 1: with Maggie. Did she protect Paul or did she try

905
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: to smooth things over between Alex and Paul. We don't know.

906
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: But for me as a staged staged murder expert, he

907
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: is charting on all of our metrics at LPA for

908
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 1: numerous staged behavioral patterns in this case, on numerous points

909
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 1: and planes. So I don't just say that I think

910
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: I know that Alex Murtle has something to do with

911
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: these murders or is the shooter himself. I'm saying that

912
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: because based on our metrics, he is charting that he is. Nancy,

913
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: I have a question. A go ahead, Nancy, Can I

914
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 1: ask you a question, your prosecutor? Are you going to

915
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: ask for a lesser included charge on voluntary manslaughter because

916
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 1: he testified I did not intentionally shoot Maggie or Paul.

917
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: What are you going to do as a prosecutor in

918
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: this case? Well, in the past, in many cases I

919
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: was okay with the defense request for a lesser because

920
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 1: if a lesser included offense such as volunteer, even involuntary,

921
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: can be construed from the facts, it is reversible error,

922
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,959
Speaker 1: not for the judge to allow those charges. But in

923
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 1: this case, I would go for broke. I think this

924
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: is an intentional murder and nothing less. It's double murder.

925
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 1: If the defense asked for those there's really no way

926
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 1: to stop it because it could be made out in

927
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: the facts and that would be reversible error. So really

928
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: should not object to that. Guys, we're about to find

929
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: out what this tempest is regarding a gerar. Are we

930
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: about to lose another gurar because of misconduct? We'll find out.

931
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 1: I'm going straight back in the courthouse, and I want

932
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 1: to thank all of my guests and especially you for

933
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation in series M

934
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: one eleven. I'll see you in the courtroom. Goodbye, friend,