1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:23,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin. When we tape interviews for this show, a lot 2 00:00:23,196 --> 00:00:26,756 Speaker 1: of small things can go wrong. Planes fly overhead, trains 3 00:00:26,796 --> 00:00:30,316 Speaker 1: rumble by, recording devices break, But more often than not, 4 00:00:30,676 --> 00:00:33,316 Speaker 1: the problem is usually somebody's phone going off. 5 00:00:33,956 --> 00:00:36,836 Speaker 2: I turned the phone off, but they didn't turn it off. 6 00:00:37,156 --> 00:00:37,516 Speaker 2: I did. 7 00:00:37,636 --> 00:00:41,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, this isn't the kind of exchange you might have 8 00:00:41,196 --> 00:00:45,436 Speaker 1: expected from relationship experts John and Julie Schwartz Gotman. You 9 00:00:45,516 --> 00:00:47,716 Speaker 1: might have thought that Julie would just brush over John's 10 00:00:47,756 --> 00:00:51,316 Speaker 1: mistake with some loving, yet sacarine comment. Oh, honey, I 11 00:00:51,396 --> 00:00:54,716 Speaker 1: simply adore your forgetfulness. It fills our lives with so 12 00:00:54,756 --> 00:00:58,876 Speaker 1: many surprises. But the Gutmans are realists. They don't like 13 00:00:58,916 --> 00:01:02,196 Speaker 1: shying away from the disagreements, disputes, and downry arguments that 14 00:01:02,236 --> 00:01:05,276 Speaker 1: happen in every partnership, and in their decades together as 15 00:01:05,276 --> 00:01:08,156 Speaker 1: a married couple, they've had their fair share of conflicts. 16 00:01:08,636 --> 00:01:10,476 Speaker 1: Some of the were pretty fundamental. 17 00:01:10,956 --> 00:01:13,476 Speaker 2: This was like thirty years ago. It had such a 18 00:01:13,476 --> 00:01:16,956 Speaker 2: big fight there that we actually went to couple therapy. 19 00:01:17,196 --> 00:01:20,356 Speaker 1: That must be so intimidating for the poor couple therapists. 20 00:01:20,356 --> 00:01:23,796 Speaker 1: When the Gotman's walk in throughout their careers and now 21 00:01:23,836 --> 00:01:26,436 Speaker 1: at the institute that bears their name. The Gotments have 22 00:01:26,476 --> 00:01:30,396 Speaker 1: studied countless couples, paying particular attention to the different ways 23 00:01:30,436 --> 00:01:33,716 Speaker 1: they bring up complaints and solve conflicts, and the central 24 00:01:33,796 --> 00:01:36,076 Speaker 1: lesson they've observed is that the key to a long 25 00:01:36,076 --> 00:01:40,196 Speaker 1: and healthy relationship lies in confronting disagreement rather than burying it. 26 00:01:40,676 --> 00:01:43,076 Speaker 1: But as they explain in their new book, Fight Right, 27 00:01:43,276 --> 00:01:47,396 Speaker 1: how successful couples turn conflict into connection. There are ways 28 00:01:47,396 --> 00:01:50,116 Speaker 1: we can argue a bit smarter, and the Gotments think 29 00:01:50,196 --> 00:01:52,676 Speaker 1: we need to heed this advice now more than ever. 30 00:01:53,516 --> 00:01:58,756 Speaker 3: When COVID started, actually we did a number of interviews 31 00:01:58,796 --> 00:02:04,076 Speaker 3: and podcasts to give tools and rice for couples who 32 00:02:04,116 --> 00:02:08,796 Speaker 3: were struggling so hard, you know, especially under quarantine, was 33 00:02:08,796 --> 00:02:13,596 Speaker 3: so painful because most people are used to separation during 34 00:02:13,636 --> 00:02:17,356 Speaker 3: the day with work and kid care and variety of things, 35 00:02:17,436 --> 00:02:20,156 Speaker 3: and then coming together. Now they were together twenty four 36 00:02:20,196 --> 00:02:24,436 Speaker 3: to seven. Oftentimes they didn't have space to themselves, you know, 37 00:02:24,636 --> 00:02:28,436 Speaker 3: nothing of solitude for themselves if they needed that, And 38 00:02:28,596 --> 00:02:32,596 Speaker 3: that has carried over people. At least the people who 39 00:02:32,636 --> 00:02:37,836 Speaker 3: had distress marriages became more and more unhappy. They became 40 00:02:37,996 --> 00:02:44,596 Speaker 3: more domestically violent, more hostile, towards one another, and there 41 00:02:44,716 --> 00:02:51,396 Speaker 3: was emotional damage occurring that still festers inside a lot 42 00:02:51,436 --> 00:02:56,796 Speaker 3: of couples today, even though COVID is much more under control. 43 00:02:57,196 --> 00:03:01,676 Speaker 3: So I think we're in a sorry state right now. 44 00:03:02,036 --> 00:03:05,836 Speaker 3: The other thing, too, is that kids, especially teams, have 45 00:03:06,116 --> 00:03:11,596 Speaker 3: suffered tremendously from COVID. That puts more pressure on the 46 00:03:11,716 --> 00:03:16,516 Speaker 3: parents because now they're dealing with kids who are seriously depressed, 47 00:03:16,996 --> 00:03:19,876 Speaker 3: who may even be suicidal, who don't want to go 48 00:03:19,916 --> 00:03:23,556 Speaker 3: to school, who don't want to connect socially because they've 49 00:03:23,556 --> 00:03:28,236 Speaker 3: almost forgotten how except through technology, and kids are a 50 00:03:28,396 --> 00:03:32,716 Speaker 3: loss for whom we got going back to what was normal, 51 00:03:32,796 --> 00:03:36,836 Speaker 3: what is normal, and parents are coping with that too. 52 00:03:37,316 --> 00:03:39,756 Speaker 3: That puts more strain on parents too. 53 00:03:40,236 --> 00:03:44,716 Speaker 2: So we think that fighting isn't broken here in this country. 54 00:03:44,836 --> 00:03:49,796 Speaker 2: You know, there's so much polarization, political polarization, and in 55 00:03:50,236 --> 00:03:54,636 Speaker 2: good relationships, people fight in ways that are destructive, that 56 00:03:54,836 --> 00:03:57,756 Speaker 2: create antagonism. 57 00:03:56,956 --> 00:03:58,436 Speaker 4: I mean in bad relationships. 58 00:03:58,556 --> 00:04:02,076 Speaker 2: In bad relationships, thank you, there's a need to really 59 00:04:02,116 --> 00:04:05,116 Speaker 2: re examine the way we do with conflict. And what 60 00:04:05,396 --> 00:04:09,276 Speaker 2: this book is about Fight right, is turning conflict to 61 00:04:09,316 --> 00:04:12,116 Speaker 2: connection and what are the tools for doing that? 62 00:04:12,476 --> 00:04:14,156 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the great thing about your work is that 63 00:04:14,196 --> 00:04:17,636 Speaker 1: you've been able to look predictively at the way people 64 00:04:17,676 --> 00:04:19,996 Speaker 1: fight to try to figure out how that's going to 65 00:04:20,036 --> 00:04:22,596 Speaker 1: play out and the rest of their relationship. And in 66 00:04:22,596 --> 00:04:25,156 Speaker 1: the course of doing that, you've identified what you like 67 00:04:25,196 --> 00:04:29,636 Speaker 1: to call the four horsemen of the four horsemen of 68 00:04:29,676 --> 00:04:32,316 Speaker 1: the relationship apocalypse, I think is what we're going for. 69 00:04:32,436 --> 00:04:35,836 Speaker 1: And so you know, walk me through what these are 70 00:04:35,876 --> 00:04:37,636 Speaker 1: and why they can be so problematic. 71 00:04:38,076 --> 00:04:42,116 Speaker 3: All right, So number one is criticism. That you know, 72 00:04:42,156 --> 00:04:44,556 Speaker 3: the thing we do the most is one of the 73 00:04:44,596 --> 00:04:50,596 Speaker 3: most distructed. So criticism means blaming a problem between you 74 00:04:50,676 --> 00:04:54,276 Speaker 3: and your partner on a personality flaw of your partner. 75 00:04:54,836 --> 00:04:58,716 Speaker 3: So it will sound like you're so lazy, you're so thoughtfuk, 76 00:04:58,796 --> 00:05:03,956 Speaker 3: you're so inconsiderate. All those put downs are criticisms. 77 00:05:04,716 --> 00:05:05,276 Speaker 4: That's one. 78 00:05:05,956 --> 00:05:11,116 Speaker 3: The second one, we call contempt. Temp is really awful. 79 00:05:11,196 --> 00:05:15,236 Speaker 3: It's like sulphuric acid for the relationship. It destroys it 80 00:05:15,516 --> 00:05:21,916 Speaker 3: and not only does it predict the relationship demise, it 81 00:05:22,116 --> 00:05:28,596 Speaker 3: also predicts how many infectious illnesses the listener of contempt 82 00:05:28,636 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 3: will have in the coming years. That's incredible. So caring 83 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:39,356 Speaker 3: Contempt destroys the immune system of the listener. So do 84 00:05:39,436 --> 00:05:41,596 Speaker 3: we want to do that to the person we love? 85 00:05:41,676 --> 00:05:45,316 Speaker 3: I don't think so, so different, and I was about 86 00:05:45,356 --> 00:05:52,076 Speaker 3: to say that thank you. Contempt is looking down your 87 00:05:52,196 --> 00:05:56,196 Speaker 3: nose at your partner from a position of superiority. So 88 00:05:56,276 --> 00:06:03,196 Speaker 3: there's often a smear or some scorn or you know, sarcasm, 89 00:06:03,916 --> 00:06:08,556 Speaker 3: mockery at times, and of course name calling, calling your 90 00:06:08,596 --> 00:06:13,756 Speaker 3: partner name, which we don't have to repeat here. All 91 00:06:13,796 --> 00:06:18,556 Speaker 3: of that is contempt. Now, the response to criticism and 92 00:06:18,636 --> 00:06:24,316 Speaker 3: contempt is defensiveness. Those two first ones make us feel attacked. 93 00:06:24,796 --> 00:06:28,156 Speaker 3: What do we do when we feel attacked, Well, we're 94 00:06:28,196 --> 00:06:31,636 Speaker 3: going to fight back or we're going to play innocent victim. 95 00:06:32,196 --> 00:06:38,556 Speaker 3: So in defensiveness, you either will counterattack or reline and 96 00:06:38,636 --> 00:06:42,116 Speaker 3: say I did to pay the bills on time, like 97 00:06:42,196 --> 00:06:46,156 Speaker 3: the ws the whiners. Yeah, our friends the whiners. And 98 00:06:46,276 --> 00:06:49,916 Speaker 3: so that's number three and number four we call stonewall. 99 00:06:50,596 --> 00:06:56,596 Speaker 3: Stonewalling literally is what it sounds like. The listener who's 100 00:06:56,596 --> 00:07:01,036 Speaker 3: supposed to be engaged with the speaker shuts themselves down, 101 00:07:01,556 --> 00:07:06,156 Speaker 3: acts like a stonewall. May not make icontact, doesn't show 102 00:07:06,636 --> 00:07:11,916 Speaker 3: any response, any movement, any words that indicates they're actually 103 00:07:12,076 --> 00:07:16,836 Speaker 3: listening and participating. They turned into a stone wall. We 104 00:07:17,036 --> 00:07:21,476 Speaker 3: discovered that people who stonewalled, and eighty five percent of 105 00:07:21,556 --> 00:07:26,396 Speaker 3: those were men inside, were actually in fight or flight, 106 00:07:26,796 --> 00:07:30,876 Speaker 3: which is really interesting. Their heart rates would be sitting 107 00:07:30,876 --> 00:07:34,796 Speaker 3: there over one hundred beats a minute, sometimes way higher, 108 00:07:35,236 --> 00:07:38,596 Speaker 3: or for an athlete over about eighty eighty five beats 109 00:07:38,596 --> 00:07:43,196 Speaker 3: a minute, and they were in fight or flight or freeze, 110 00:07:43,236 --> 00:07:49,676 Speaker 3: which is a horribly uncomfortable feeling inside. Thus, the person 111 00:07:49,876 --> 00:07:55,156 Speaker 3: was actually going inside themselves, trying to shut out stimuli 112 00:07:55,276 --> 00:08:00,756 Speaker 3: coming from outside, including the partner's boys, in order to 113 00:08:00,956 --> 00:08:05,316 Speaker 3: soothe themselves because they were feeling so awful. That's the 114 00:08:05,396 --> 00:08:10,476 Speaker 3: stone waller. So those are the four criticism, contempt, defensiveness 115 00:08:10,516 --> 00:08:11,356 Speaker 3: in stonewaller. 116 00:08:11,596 --> 00:08:13,356 Speaker 1: And so it seems like one of the reasons we 117 00:08:13,436 --> 00:08:15,756 Speaker 1: wind up entering this path of the four horsemen of 118 00:08:15,836 --> 00:08:18,036 Speaker 1: bad relationships is that we kind of don't realize what 119 00:08:18,036 --> 00:08:20,396 Speaker 1: we're fighting about. We need to kind of figure out 120 00:08:20,436 --> 00:08:23,076 Speaker 1: what the deeper hidden agenda is in some of these fights. 121 00:08:23,156 --> 00:08:25,236 Speaker 1: But at a very kind of basic level, what are 122 00:08:25,356 --> 00:08:26,156 Speaker 1: most fights about. 123 00:08:26,196 --> 00:08:30,236 Speaker 2: It's kind of surprising, right, They're about absolutely nothing. They're 124 00:08:30,276 --> 00:08:33,756 Speaker 2: watching TV and he's got the remote and he's cattle 125 00:08:33,796 --> 00:08:36,916 Speaker 2: surfing and she says, leave it on that show that's interesting. 126 00:08:36,916 --> 00:08:38,476 Speaker 2: And he says, well, well, let me see what else 127 00:08:38,556 --> 00:08:40,996 Speaker 2: is on. She says, no, leave it. He says, well, 128 00:08:41,076 --> 00:08:43,396 Speaker 2: let me see what else is on and she says, no, 129 00:08:43,596 --> 00:08:46,476 Speaker 2: leave it. He says, fine, have it your way. She says, 130 00:08:46,676 --> 00:08:49,636 Speaker 2: why did you say find that way? You know, I 131 00:08:49,676 --> 00:08:52,156 Speaker 2: don't even want to watch television with you now, oh 132 00:08:52,236 --> 00:08:56,476 Speaker 2: you know? Okay, fine, and then they stop relating. So 133 00:08:56,876 --> 00:09:01,516 Speaker 2: what are they fighting about. They're really not fighting about money, sex, 134 00:09:02,276 --> 00:09:05,676 Speaker 2: in laws, parenting, you know, they're fighting about the lack 135 00:09:05,716 --> 00:09:09,516 Speaker 2: of connection, you know, that inability to seat one another point, 136 00:09:10,156 --> 00:09:14,556 Speaker 2: and that really gets in the way of a deeper 137 00:09:14,636 --> 00:09:17,076 Speaker 2: understanding of what's going on in the moment. 138 00:09:17,716 --> 00:09:21,156 Speaker 1: And so sometimes finding this deeper understanding really requires going 139 00:09:21,236 --> 00:09:24,196 Speaker 1: to that hidden agenda. You talking what you mean by 140 00:09:24,196 --> 00:09:25,956 Speaker 1: a hidden agenda and why it can lead to so 141 00:09:26,036 --> 00:09:27,876 Speaker 1: much kind of conflict and relationships. 142 00:09:28,236 --> 00:09:33,076 Speaker 3: Okay, So by hidden agenda, what we mean is again 143 00:09:33,196 --> 00:09:40,116 Speaker 3: that internal world inside somebody where resuldes their values, their 144 00:09:40,156 --> 00:09:46,156 Speaker 3: core needs, their ideal dreams, their history, which may include 145 00:09:46,396 --> 00:09:52,756 Speaker 3: some old scar tissue from past parenting, or relationships, being abused, 146 00:09:52,796 --> 00:09:58,396 Speaker 3: all kinds of things, and that remains underground. They're not 147 00:09:58,596 --> 00:10:01,356 Speaker 3: talking about that. They're talking about something on the surface. 148 00:10:01,836 --> 00:10:06,196 Speaker 3: So let me give you a good example. Let's say that. Well, 149 00:10:06,236 --> 00:10:09,156 Speaker 3: I can just take our situation with the books. On 150 00:10:09,756 --> 00:10:13,876 Speaker 3: is an avid book collector. We're getting books all the time. 151 00:10:14,076 --> 00:10:16,116 Speaker 3: Where are you going to put them? There's piles of 152 00:10:16,156 --> 00:10:19,996 Speaker 3: stuff all over the place. Okay, So John has a 153 00:10:19,996 --> 00:10:25,916 Speaker 3: personality type. He can focus his attention completely on whatever 154 00:10:26,076 --> 00:10:30,516 Speaker 3: he's choosing to attend too, and everything else is blocked out. 155 00:10:30,796 --> 00:10:30,996 Speaker 2: You know. 156 00:10:31,036 --> 00:10:36,156 Speaker 3: It's a phenomenal skill that he developed growing up in 157 00:10:36,236 --> 00:10:40,996 Speaker 3: a very crowded tenement apartment in New York. I. On 158 00:10:41,076 --> 00:10:45,836 Speaker 3: the other hand, the whole environment totally affects me. The 159 00:10:45,876 --> 00:10:50,316 Speaker 3: colors of the walls, the sounds, the noise, the tidiness, 160 00:10:50,356 --> 00:10:53,676 Speaker 3: everything affects me. And I can't think straight if things 161 00:10:53,716 --> 00:11:02,036 Speaker 3: are disorganized, right, So that's a fundamental difference between John 162 00:11:02,076 --> 00:11:07,076 Speaker 3: and I. So my ideal dream here, I actually have 163 00:11:07,156 --> 00:11:10,076 Speaker 3: a little postcard that shows a woman sleeping and just 164 00:11:10,116 --> 00:11:13,996 Speaker 3: waking up. I dreamed of a tidy house, you know, 165 00:11:14,196 --> 00:11:17,956 Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's like, yes, exactly, and to John, 166 00:11:18,076 --> 00:11:24,436 Speaker 3: that's completely arbitrary, unimportant, right, Okay, But if we don't 167 00:11:24,476 --> 00:11:28,836 Speaker 3: bring up those differences between us, his dream is to 168 00:11:28,956 --> 00:11:31,316 Speaker 3: not be nanged because he just wants to do what 169 00:11:31,356 --> 00:11:33,676 Speaker 3: he wants to do, you know, which, of course most 170 00:11:33,716 --> 00:11:35,756 Speaker 3: of us do. We want to have a little bit 171 00:11:35,796 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 3: of control over our. 172 00:11:36,956 --> 00:11:39,436 Speaker 1: Time, and so sometimes those hidden agendas seem to be 173 00:11:39,476 --> 00:11:42,676 Speaker 1: about these personality differences. But I know you've talked about 174 00:11:42,716 --> 00:11:46,196 Speaker 1: cases where you really had these hidden dreams, right, these 175 00:11:46,276 --> 00:11:48,916 Speaker 1: these deeper values that you had for your life and 176 00:11:48,916 --> 00:11:51,116 Speaker 1: what you want your choices to be, and that that 177 00:11:51,156 --> 00:11:52,356 Speaker 1: can lead to conflict too. 178 00:11:52,876 --> 00:11:56,596 Speaker 2: So really wanted to buy a small cabin on Arches Island, 179 00:11:56,636 --> 00:12:00,596 Speaker 2: and we have been renting places and even rented a 180 00:12:00,756 --> 00:12:03,716 Speaker 2: lovely place on the ocean, you know. And I didn't 181 00:12:03,716 --> 00:12:05,156 Speaker 2: think it was I didn't think it was a good 182 00:12:05,196 --> 00:12:08,956 Speaker 2: idea to buy buy another place. I thought it was 183 00:12:08,996 --> 00:12:12,476 Speaker 2: a waste of money and we could rent, and why 184 00:12:12,516 --> 00:12:14,796 Speaker 2: did we have to do this? And so I was 185 00:12:14,876 --> 00:12:17,996 Speaker 2: adamant about not doing it. She was adamant about doing it. 186 00:12:18,276 --> 00:12:22,716 Speaker 2: So we went to therapy, and the therapist one day said, John, 187 00:12:24,076 --> 00:12:27,676 Speaker 2: relationships are about creating boundaries, and you can say no 188 00:12:27,796 --> 00:12:30,316 Speaker 2: to her and she has to live with it. And 189 00:12:30,356 --> 00:12:33,516 Speaker 2: when we left you, I said, do I sound like that? 190 00:12:34,156 --> 00:12:36,156 Speaker 2: And she said, yeah, you do, and I said, well, 191 00:12:36,796 --> 00:12:38,836 Speaker 2: I don't want that kind of a relationship. I think 192 00:12:38,876 --> 00:12:41,836 Speaker 2: we have to talk more about this cabin thing. And 193 00:12:41,876 --> 00:12:46,756 Speaker 2: so we really developed a way of going deeper into 194 00:12:46,876 --> 00:12:50,076 Speaker 2: why was it so important to her to have her 195 00:12:50,116 --> 00:12:53,116 Speaker 2: own place there rather than renting? What was the big 196 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:53,756 Speaker 2: thing about this? 197 00:12:54,476 --> 00:12:57,276 Speaker 3: Needless to say, we fired the therapist immediately. 198 00:12:58,396 --> 00:12:59,636 Speaker 2: But what we did. 199 00:12:59,836 --> 00:13:02,876 Speaker 3: We came home and we sat down, I'll never forget 200 00:13:02,916 --> 00:13:06,836 Speaker 3: this evening, and we started asking each other these huge 201 00:13:06,996 --> 00:13:13,356 Speaker 3: questions that later became our intervention called the Dream within Conflict, 202 00:13:13,676 --> 00:13:18,476 Speaker 3: And we asked questions like, honey, is there some value 203 00:13:18,756 --> 00:13:23,396 Speaker 3: or ethics or guidelines that are part of your position 204 00:13:23,476 --> 00:13:27,236 Speaker 3: on this issue? We would ask, do you have some 205 00:13:27,396 --> 00:13:32,276 Speaker 3: childhood history that somehow is relating to this? Why is 206 00:13:32,316 --> 00:13:36,036 Speaker 3: this so important to you? Do you have some ideal 207 00:13:36,236 --> 00:13:39,116 Speaker 3: dream here that was a biggie? Do you have some 208 00:13:39,316 --> 00:13:43,116 Speaker 3: ideal dream that's part of your position on this issue? 209 00:13:43,636 --> 00:13:48,036 Speaker 3: And oh my god, this whole world opened up. 210 00:13:48,036 --> 00:13:50,716 Speaker 2: With these six questions. You know, I was able to 211 00:13:50,796 --> 00:13:55,236 Speaker 2: really look deeply at Hyo is so opposed to owning property. 212 00:13:55,916 --> 00:13:58,636 Speaker 2: And it really had to do with my parents having 213 00:13:58,676 --> 00:14:03,156 Speaker 2: survived the Holocaust in World War two, and my father's 214 00:14:03,196 --> 00:14:06,556 Speaker 2: messages to me, don't trust in anything but what you 215 00:14:06,596 --> 00:14:08,796 Speaker 2: can put in your mind, because you may have to 216 00:14:08,836 --> 00:14:11,876 Speaker 2: flee one day. Jus have always had the fleet, you know. 217 00:14:11,956 --> 00:14:15,796 Speaker 2: That was my objection and Julie's. You can tell. 218 00:14:15,676 --> 00:14:20,276 Speaker 3: Yourselves, and mine mine was that I'd grown up in 219 00:14:20,316 --> 00:14:25,476 Speaker 3: a very unhappy household, very distressed, and so I lived 220 00:14:25,676 --> 00:14:26,796 Speaker 3: a couple of blocks. 221 00:14:26,516 --> 00:14:27,956 Speaker 4: Away from a huge forest. 222 00:14:28,276 --> 00:14:31,316 Speaker 3: At night, beginning when I was eight or nine years old, 223 00:14:31,556 --> 00:14:34,156 Speaker 3: I would sneak out of the house after everybody went 224 00:14:34,196 --> 00:14:37,916 Speaker 3: to bed. I'd go sleep in the forest overnight, no 225 00:14:37,956 --> 00:14:40,636 Speaker 3: matter what the weather was. Then I would sneak back 226 00:14:40,676 --> 00:14:44,116 Speaker 3: in before people got up, and nobody knew I was 227 00:14:44,156 --> 00:14:47,876 Speaker 3: doing that for years, years and years and years. I 228 00:14:47,916 --> 00:14:50,716 Speaker 3: have my favorite tree I would sleep in. So I 229 00:14:50,756 --> 00:14:54,356 Speaker 3: think I'm part monkey or something. I'm not, twere, But anyway, 230 00:14:54,796 --> 00:14:58,316 Speaker 3: what getting a place on Orcas meant to me was 231 00:14:58,436 --> 00:15:02,436 Speaker 3: having roots in the wilderness, which is exactly what that 232 00:15:02,596 --> 00:15:05,756 Speaker 3: forest had been to me as a child. So you 233 00:15:05,796 --> 00:15:11,116 Speaker 3: can see both of our back rounds our childhood histories 234 00:15:11,156 --> 00:15:16,876 Speaker 3: and values that those histories taught us, which were very powerful, 235 00:15:17,596 --> 00:15:21,716 Speaker 3: were really significant in this difference between us, right. 236 00:15:21,756 --> 00:15:24,276 Speaker 2: And once we understood that, we were able to arrive 237 00:15:24,316 --> 00:15:27,236 Speaker 2: at a compromise that really worked for both of us, 238 00:15:27,876 --> 00:15:28,636 Speaker 2: which was. 239 00:15:29,076 --> 00:15:32,676 Speaker 3: We agreed we would buy a little cabin and live 240 00:15:32,716 --> 00:15:37,436 Speaker 3: in it for two years and see how it felt 241 00:15:37,676 --> 00:15:40,516 Speaker 3: to be there, whether or not we really liked this, 242 00:15:41,036 --> 00:15:47,156 Speaker 3: in trade for keeping our house a kosher house, which 243 00:15:47,196 --> 00:15:49,036 Speaker 3: was a great big deal, a lot of you know, 244 00:15:49,116 --> 00:15:52,676 Speaker 3: different dishes for milk and meat and you know, all 245 00:15:52,756 --> 00:15:58,036 Speaker 3: kinds of stuff. We did that in exchange, and John 246 00:15:58,116 --> 00:16:01,996 Speaker 3: discovered he loved having a cabin. 247 00:16:01,756 --> 00:16:06,156 Speaker 2: Non Orchestral really loved it. Yeah, it was so quiet, 248 00:16:06,756 --> 00:16:09,356 Speaker 2: so peaceful, you know, we really loved. 249 00:16:09,676 --> 00:16:11,236 Speaker 1: And so it just shows the power when you can 250 00:16:11,236 --> 00:16:13,636 Speaker 1: actually get to these compromises, when you can sort of 251 00:16:13,716 --> 00:16:16,276 Speaker 1: look at these hidden agendas and figure out a compromise 252 00:16:16,316 --> 00:16:19,236 Speaker 1: that maximizes both both parties can be happy. I think 253 00:16:19,236 --> 00:16:21,236 Speaker 1: often when we think of compromise, we think, well, somebody's 254 00:16:21,276 --> 00:16:23,596 Speaker 1: going to have to sacrifice something. But sometimes if you 255 00:16:23,676 --> 00:16:25,596 Speaker 1: understand what you're really fighting about, it seems like you 256 00:16:25,636 --> 00:16:27,916 Speaker 1: can get to like, you know, a compromise that really 257 00:16:27,916 --> 00:16:28,556 Speaker 1: works for everybody. 258 00:16:28,636 --> 00:16:31,196 Speaker 2: Yeah. The amazing thing is that the worst issues in 259 00:16:31,236 --> 00:16:36,396 Speaker 2: a relationship can be the greatest sources of connection and understanding. 260 00:16:36,876 --> 00:16:40,876 Speaker 3: Right, let me give you another example of this notion 261 00:16:40,996 --> 00:16:45,916 Speaker 3: of compromise. We found that the successful couples took an 262 00:16:45,956 --> 00:16:48,916 Speaker 3: initial step when they were working on compromise that was 263 00:16:49,116 --> 00:16:52,836 Speaker 3: really important, and that was to take their own position 264 00:16:52,876 --> 00:16:56,516 Speaker 3: on an issue and divide it into two parts, an 265 00:16:56,756 --> 00:17:03,396 Speaker 3: inflexible part, the part where nothing could be given up 266 00:17:03,996 --> 00:17:08,316 Speaker 3: in that little circle, a core need, an ideal dream 267 00:17:08,396 --> 00:17:14,116 Speaker 3: of particular value. They could not compromise on those pieces 268 00:17:14,356 --> 00:17:18,956 Speaker 3: of their position, but there were also flexible things that 269 00:17:18,996 --> 00:17:24,796 Speaker 3: they could compromise on that might have to do with who, what, where, when, 270 00:17:25,356 --> 00:17:30,476 Speaker 3: how much, how long, you know, those fundamental nitty gritty details. 271 00:17:30,916 --> 00:17:33,636 Speaker 3: So we had a couple in a workshop, for example, 272 00:17:34,316 --> 00:17:38,596 Speaker 3: where the woman and the man were getting ready for retiring, 273 00:17:38,876 --> 00:17:42,236 Speaker 3: and they both wanted to sell their house. But then 274 00:17:42,676 --> 00:17:46,156 Speaker 3: his ideal dream was to buy a sailboat sail around 275 00:17:46,156 --> 00:17:50,556 Speaker 3: the world forever and ever into the sunset. Her ideal 276 00:17:50,676 --> 00:17:54,316 Speaker 3: dream was this. Her family had owned a farm for 277 00:17:54,396 --> 00:17:58,396 Speaker 3: over one hundred years called a century farm. She wanted 278 00:17:58,436 --> 00:18:00,956 Speaker 3: to go live on the farm and take her place 279 00:18:01,316 --> 00:18:04,876 Speaker 3: in the legacy of ancestors who had also done so. 280 00:18:05,156 --> 00:18:08,796 Speaker 3: Where was it in Iowa? So how do you sail 281 00:18:08,796 --> 00:18:12,676 Speaker 3: around the world from Iowa? You cannot do this. So 282 00:18:13,356 --> 00:18:18,396 Speaker 3: when they looked at their positions in his center circle, 283 00:18:18,516 --> 00:18:23,956 Speaker 3: that was inflexible he put sailing. Hers was live on 284 00:18:23,996 --> 00:18:28,956 Speaker 3: the farm. But around that the flexible things were whose 285 00:18:29,036 --> 00:18:32,076 Speaker 3: dream would go first? How long would it last? How 286 00:18:32,156 --> 00:18:36,036 Speaker 3: much would we spend, where would we go, When would 287 00:18:36,036 --> 00:18:37,796 Speaker 3: it begin, when would it end? 288 00:18:38,156 --> 00:18:38,436 Speaker 2: Etc. 289 00:18:39,036 --> 00:18:43,036 Speaker 3: And they arrived through doing that at this gorgeous compromise. 290 00:18:43,356 --> 00:18:46,996 Speaker 3: They would first buy a sailboat, sail as far as 291 00:18:47,036 --> 00:18:50,476 Speaker 3: they could for a year, then put the boat up 292 00:18:50,516 --> 00:18:54,476 Speaker 3: on dry dock, and go for living on the farm 293 00:18:54,956 --> 00:18:58,556 Speaker 3: for one year same amount of time. That felt fair 294 00:18:58,716 --> 00:19:02,796 Speaker 3: and just, And after two years then they would compare 295 00:19:02,916 --> 00:19:07,756 Speaker 3: their experiences in order to create the next dream together. 296 00:19:08,356 --> 00:19:11,796 Speaker 3: It was perfect, even though they were coming from totally 297 00:19:11,996 --> 00:19:13,596 Speaker 3: opposite dreams. 298 00:19:15,316 --> 00:19:18,236 Speaker 1: Finding a compromise between Iowa and the open ocean seems 299 00:19:18,276 --> 00:19:22,276 Speaker 1: pretty impressive, But what about the smaller relationship conflicts that 300 00:19:22,356 --> 00:19:25,436 Speaker 1: come up even more often in our everyday lives. After 301 00:19:25,476 --> 00:19:28,076 Speaker 1: the break we'll look at best practices for starting these 302 00:19:28,116 --> 00:19:30,956 Speaker 1: lower grade arguments off right and what we can do 303 00:19:31,116 --> 00:19:32,316 Speaker 1: if they wind up going wrong. 304 00:19:32,596 --> 00:19:36,076 Speaker 3: Why do you always leave all the laundry on themsels. 305 00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:38,156 Speaker 2: No, honey, I'm starting to feel defensive here. 306 00:19:38,316 --> 00:19:41,676 Speaker 3: I'm just sick and tired of this stupid, stupid laundry. 307 00:19:42,356 --> 00:19:54,316 Speaker 1: The happiness lab will be right back. Relationship fights have 308 00:19:54,356 --> 00:19:56,396 Speaker 1: a way of exploding when we least want them to. 309 00:19:56,996 --> 00:19:59,756 Speaker 1: Maybe we've been building up small resentments over months or 310 00:19:59,876 --> 00:20:03,836 Speaker 1: years when something finally sets us off. We're feeling angry, 311 00:20:03,996 --> 00:20:06,436 Speaker 1: we're hurting, and we open our mouths with a little 312 00:20:06,476 --> 00:20:10,356 Speaker 1: plan for what we're going to say. Expert doctor Julie 313 00:20:10,396 --> 00:20:13,796 Speaker 1: Schwartz Scottman has found that these ad libbed openings aren't 314 00:20:13,796 --> 00:20:15,076 Speaker 1: the best way to start an argument. 315 00:20:15,716 --> 00:20:19,876 Speaker 3: The first three minutes of a fight is incredibly important. 316 00:20:20,156 --> 00:20:25,196 Speaker 3: The first three minutes of a conflict conversation not only 317 00:20:25,316 --> 00:20:28,676 Speaker 3: predicts how the rest of the conversation will go, it 318 00:20:28,756 --> 00:20:32,316 Speaker 3: also predicts how well the relationship that's going to go 319 00:20:32,636 --> 00:20:37,076 Speaker 3: six years down the road with over ninety percent accuracy. 320 00:20:37,916 --> 00:20:42,276 Speaker 3: So how we bring up our complaint is absolutely crucial. 321 00:20:42,996 --> 00:20:47,956 Speaker 3: Say what you feel you're describing yourself, I feel stressed, 322 00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:54,276 Speaker 3: I feel disappointed. Then step two about what now. Notice 323 00:20:54,316 --> 00:20:57,516 Speaker 3: that's not about who, about your partner and how rotten 324 00:20:57,516 --> 00:20:57,876 Speaker 3: they are. 325 00:20:58,356 --> 00:21:00,636 Speaker 1: But you also have some backs practices once the fight 326 00:21:00,836 --> 00:21:03,436 Speaker 1: starts in order how to do it right. And one 327 00:21:03,476 --> 00:21:05,876 Speaker 1: of my favorite ones, because I think this is a 328 00:21:05,916 --> 00:21:08,676 Speaker 1: tendency that I need to work on with my own husband, 329 00:21:08,876 --> 00:21:11,316 Speaker 1: is to make sure I'm not kitchen sinking in the 330 00:21:11,356 --> 00:21:14,036 Speaker 1: middle of the fight. What is kitchen sinking and why 331 00:21:14,116 --> 00:21:15,996 Speaker 1: is it so bad for a fight. 332 00:21:16,556 --> 00:21:19,436 Speaker 2: One of the things that we find that people do 333 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:24,716 Speaker 2: that gets in the way of mutual understanding is that 334 00:21:24,756 --> 00:21:27,876 Speaker 2: they don't feel entitled to their complaints, so they kind 335 00:21:27,876 --> 00:21:31,316 Speaker 2: of stockpile their grievances. They try to live with it 336 00:21:31,356 --> 00:21:33,476 Speaker 2: and say, ah, it's no big deal, I don't have 337 00:21:33,516 --> 00:21:36,276 Speaker 2: to bring that up. But then there's another one. They 338 00:21:36,276 --> 00:21:39,956 Speaker 2: do that again and again until resentment builds to such 339 00:21:39,996 --> 00:21:42,996 Speaker 2: an extent that all of the complaints spill out at once. 340 00:21:43,516 --> 00:21:46,236 Speaker 2: And that's what we call kitchen sinking. Everything but the 341 00:21:46,356 --> 00:21:48,836 Speaker 2: kitchen sink is in there, you know, and they just 342 00:21:48,996 --> 00:21:52,276 Speaker 2: let it all out at once, And it's really overwhelming 343 00:21:52,516 --> 00:21:54,756 Speaker 2: when you do that. When you say, hey, Fred, I've 344 00:21:54,756 --> 00:21:57,796 Speaker 2: got this list of fifteen things that you're doing wrong, 345 00:21:58,396 --> 00:22:00,676 Speaker 2: and here they are, and you know, you come up 346 00:22:00,716 --> 00:22:03,676 Speaker 2: with fifteen and to Fred it feels like an avalanche. 347 00:22:03,996 --> 00:22:06,716 Speaker 2: You know, he cannot listen. He just immediately goes into 348 00:22:07,236 --> 00:22:10,956 Speaker 2: the flooded state, fight or flood. And that's what Kinch's 349 00:22:10,956 --> 00:22:12,916 Speaker 2: thinking is about. So you really need to bring up 350 00:22:12,956 --> 00:22:17,036 Speaker 2: your complaints when they matter to you, one at a time, one. 351 00:22:16,916 --> 00:22:21,076 Speaker 1: At a time, and so starting with one particular positive need. 352 00:22:21,156 --> 00:22:22,836 Speaker 1: But that's the point where I think a partner needs 353 00:22:22,836 --> 00:22:25,516 Speaker 1: to respond after you've done that well. And so talk 354 00:22:25,556 --> 00:22:27,556 Speaker 1: about what the right kind of response is from a 355 00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:30,236 Speaker 1: partner after you've expressed those needs, how they can sort 356 00:22:30,276 --> 00:22:31,396 Speaker 1: of show that you've been heard. 357 00:22:32,076 --> 00:22:37,356 Speaker 3: Well. The right response from a listener might be some 358 00:22:37,636 --> 00:22:43,316 Speaker 3: empathy and some validation, maybe even beginning with summarizing what 359 00:22:43,356 --> 00:22:47,276 Speaker 3: you hear the partner say. That might sound like, why 360 00:22:47,316 --> 00:22:50,036 Speaker 3: don't you express a need and then I'll show it. 361 00:22:50,436 --> 00:22:53,276 Speaker 2: I really need you to be with me in the 362 00:22:53,276 --> 00:22:56,676 Speaker 2: morning and not sleep in you know, because I feel 363 00:22:56,716 --> 00:23:00,596 Speaker 2: really lonely in the morning. You're just inconsiderate. You don't 364 00:23:00,596 --> 00:23:01,636 Speaker 2: think about my needs. 365 00:23:02,356 --> 00:23:03,996 Speaker 4: Okay, now do it right? 366 00:23:05,396 --> 00:23:08,756 Speaker 2: Okay? Okay, So I'm really upset that a lot of 367 00:23:08,796 --> 00:23:13,196 Speaker 2: morning you're sleeping in and I feel really alone. I 368 00:23:13,316 --> 00:23:16,196 Speaker 2: wish you would make an effort to be with me 369 00:23:16,236 --> 00:23:19,716 Speaker 2: at breakfast. That's an important meal and I'd like to 370 00:23:19,756 --> 00:23:22,236 Speaker 2: be with you and have your company. Wow. 371 00:23:22,396 --> 00:23:25,876 Speaker 3: Okay, so you're saying that you missed me in the 372 00:23:25,876 --> 00:23:32,716 Speaker 3: morning when you're having breakfast alone. Yeah, I'm sleeping Oh okay, Well, 373 00:23:33,276 --> 00:23:37,316 Speaker 3: I can understand feeling lonely. You know, when you first 374 00:23:37,596 --> 00:23:42,316 Speaker 3: wake up and you're downstairs and you're wanting some company. 375 00:23:42,436 --> 00:23:45,356 Speaker 3: You have connection first thing in the morning. That really 376 00:23:45,396 --> 00:23:46,196 Speaker 3: makes sense to me. 377 00:23:46,396 --> 00:23:46,876 Speaker 4: I get that. 378 00:23:47,116 --> 00:23:47,396 Speaker 2: Great. 379 00:23:48,036 --> 00:23:53,516 Speaker 3: Okay, so that should proceed your response. And what that 380 00:23:53,956 --> 00:24:00,036 Speaker 3: was was empathy first, empathy with there's summary, then empathy 381 00:24:00,076 --> 00:24:03,756 Speaker 3: with his feelings, and then validating is right to have 382 00:24:03,876 --> 00:24:10,236 Speaker 3: those feelings. If I were him stepping into his shoe, yeah, 383 00:24:10,316 --> 00:24:13,996 Speaker 3: I could see where he would feel lonely and want 384 00:24:14,036 --> 00:24:18,756 Speaker 3: some company. That totally makes sense to me. However, I 385 00:24:18,796 --> 00:24:23,436 Speaker 3: can still disagree with his point of view. I can 386 00:24:23,916 --> 00:24:28,436 Speaker 3: respond by saying something like if I want to say, no, honey, 387 00:24:28,556 --> 00:24:32,316 Speaker 3: you know, I really understand what you're needing and why 388 00:24:32,316 --> 00:24:37,676 Speaker 3: you're meeting, but I'm usually up till about two thirty 389 00:24:37,716 --> 00:24:38,316 Speaker 3: in the morning. 390 00:24:38,476 --> 00:24:40,756 Speaker 4: Yeah, feeding the baby. 391 00:24:40,996 --> 00:24:46,636 Speaker 3: And getting very terrible sleep, So getting up at six 392 00:24:46,676 --> 00:24:50,356 Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning is really hard for me. 393 00:24:51,076 --> 00:24:51,756 Speaker 2: I get him. 394 00:24:51,796 --> 00:24:56,356 Speaker 3: So would it be possible maybe we could compromise somehow. 395 00:24:57,636 --> 00:25:00,196 Speaker 3: I know you have to get up early some mornings, 396 00:25:00,236 --> 00:25:03,076 Speaker 3: but maybe on our weekends we could both sleep in together. 397 00:25:03,276 --> 00:25:05,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're more of a night out, you're saying in 398 00:25:05,796 --> 00:25:08,716 Speaker 2: Europe later getting up at six, so you want to 399 00:25:08,716 --> 00:25:11,236 Speaker 2: get four or five hours of sleep, right, and that 400 00:25:11,716 --> 00:25:16,436 Speaker 2: doesn't work for you, right, So yeah, we can sleep 401 00:25:16,476 --> 00:25:18,956 Speaker 2: in the weekends because you're testing. 402 00:25:19,196 --> 00:25:21,836 Speaker 4: It's a possibility. Yeah, how would you feel about that? 403 00:25:21,956 --> 00:25:22,716 Speaker 2: Kind of makes sense. 404 00:25:22,756 --> 00:25:24,516 Speaker 3: So that's kind of what it looks like. 405 00:25:24,916 --> 00:25:28,036 Speaker 1: That's beautiful. I mean I heard you each hearing one another, 406 00:25:28,196 --> 00:25:30,996 Speaker 1: or heard you quickly going to compromising, and I heard 407 00:25:31,036 --> 00:25:33,196 Speaker 1: something else that you talk about, which is this lovely 408 00:25:33,236 --> 00:25:36,356 Speaker 1: idea that you call yielding to win, which comes up 409 00:25:36,396 --> 00:25:39,236 Speaker 1: during compromise. So explain yielding to win and maybe how 410 00:25:39,276 --> 00:25:40,636 Speaker 1: it played out in that scenario. 411 00:25:41,596 --> 00:25:44,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very interesting. I mean, we really discovered this 412 00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:50,036 Speaker 2: when we studied domestic violence and these guys who were 413 00:25:50,036 --> 00:25:55,716 Speaker 2: domestically violent, just refuse to accept any influence at all. 414 00:25:56,156 --> 00:25:58,756 Speaker 2: I mean they acted like they were baseball players. Just 415 00:25:58,836 --> 00:26:01,476 Speaker 2: whatever their wives asked for, they would bat it back 416 00:26:01,516 --> 00:26:05,196 Speaker 2: and say no. And when you always say no, when 417 00:26:05,276 --> 00:26:09,356 Speaker 2: you refuse influence, you become powerless because nobody wants to 418 00:26:09,396 --> 00:26:11,836 Speaker 2: talk to you. When you're like that, there's no give 419 00:26:11,876 --> 00:26:14,396 Speaker 2: and take, So why would anybody have a conversation with 420 00:26:14,436 --> 00:26:18,836 Speaker 2: you about what they needed? So that accepting influence is 421 00:26:18,876 --> 00:26:22,996 Speaker 2: the only way to be influential in a relationship, And 422 00:26:23,036 --> 00:26:27,876 Speaker 2: that's kind of a surprising finding, well counterintuitive that by 423 00:26:27,996 --> 00:26:31,836 Speaker 2: accept influence from Julie, she's more likely to accept influence 424 00:26:31,876 --> 00:26:35,476 Speaker 2: from me. If I refuse to accept influence, she is 425 00:26:35,556 --> 00:26:37,876 Speaker 2: even unlikely to talk to me about an issue. 426 00:26:38,916 --> 00:26:42,916 Speaker 3: Yeah, think about it this way. If John makes a 427 00:26:42,956 --> 00:26:49,796 Speaker 3: request and I accept influence from him, then you know, 428 00:26:49,876 --> 00:26:52,836 Speaker 3: basically when he makes a request, he's opening up his 429 00:26:53,156 --> 00:26:57,156 Speaker 3: arms and he's saying, please be there for me, And 430 00:26:57,356 --> 00:27:02,396 Speaker 3: if I am, I'm saying back to him, I value you, 431 00:27:02,796 --> 00:27:05,036 Speaker 3: I love you, I want to be there for you. 432 00:27:05,476 --> 00:27:07,276 Speaker 3: I'm going to do the best I can to be 433 00:27:07,436 --> 00:27:11,596 Speaker 3: there for you. She, in turn, hopefully is going to 434 00:27:11,636 --> 00:27:17,116 Speaker 3: feel grateful about that and appreciative, which draws him closer 435 00:27:17,276 --> 00:27:20,516 Speaker 3: to me. And if he feels closer to me and 436 00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:24,476 Speaker 3: safer with me to express his own needs, he's also 437 00:27:24,636 --> 00:27:28,596 Speaker 3: more likely to listen to mine, right, And that's you know, 438 00:27:28,756 --> 00:27:33,916 Speaker 3: part of that beautiful reciprocity, going back and forth being 439 00:27:33,956 --> 00:27:37,996 Speaker 3: there for one another. That builds trust and eventually leads 440 00:27:38,036 --> 00:27:38,676 Speaker 3: to commitment. 441 00:27:39,156 --> 00:27:42,836 Speaker 2: And that's why power sharing power in a relationship is 442 00:27:42,876 --> 00:27:45,236 Speaker 2: really the only thing that works. You know, when you 443 00:27:45,356 --> 00:27:49,636 Speaker 2: have this dominance hierarchy one person's in control and the 444 00:27:49,716 --> 00:27:54,316 Speaker 2: other person's subordinate, it just doesn't work. It doesn't feel good. 445 00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:59,036 Speaker 2: Eventually people will withdraw from that kind of interaction and 446 00:27:59,076 --> 00:28:00,636 Speaker 2: then everybody gets lonely. 447 00:28:01,196 --> 00:28:03,196 Speaker 1: And this has kind of gets the beauty of kind 448 00:28:03,236 --> 00:28:06,276 Speaker 1: of what we can use conflict for overall, which is 449 00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:08,076 Speaker 1: that you know, again, we tend to think of fighting 450 00:28:08,076 --> 00:28:10,916 Speaker 1: in a relationship as this thing, but ultimately, if you 451 00:28:10,956 --> 00:28:13,356 Speaker 1: point it out, it's like a really important moment where 452 00:28:13,356 --> 00:28:15,836 Speaker 1: you can kind of get closer together. It can kind 453 00:28:15,836 --> 00:28:17,676 Speaker 1: of lead to something better after the fact. 454 00:28:18,036 --> 00:28:20,676 Speaker 3: May I tell you a story, Laurie. So when our 455 00:28:20,756 --> 00:28:23,916 Speaker 3: daughter was about three or four years old, you know, 456 00:28:23,956 --> 00:28:26,956 Speaker 3: we'd be having dinner and she would be listening to 457 00:28:27,036 --> 00:28:30,276 Speaker 3: our discussions about these relationships and couples and so on. 458 00:28:30,876 --> 00:28:34,436 Speaker 3: So one night after dinner, we were all hanging out 459 00:28:34,476 --> 00:28:36,956 Speaker 3: in the kitchen, John and I were cleaning up. She 460 00:28:37,156 --> 00:28:41,596 Speaker 3: was there, maybe four years old, and we turned her 461 00:28:41,636 --> 00:28:43,836 Speaker 3: and we asked her, honey, what do you think it's 462 00:28:44,236 --> 00:28:48,116 Speaker 3: like in a house when mommy and daddy's don't get 463 00:28:48,156 --> 00:28:54,196 Speaker 3: along and they fight a lot. And she ended up saying, well, 464 00:28:54,276 --> 00:28:58,116 Speaker 3: there's no rainbows in the house. And it was like, oh, 465 00:28:58,156 --> 00:29:01,676 Speaker 3: my god, they say that. Can I use that in 466 00:29:01,676 --> 00:29:04,516 Speaker 3: our next book? I mean, you know, it was It 467 00:29:04,556 --> 00:29:10,956 Speaker 3: was really the truth. The truth right that the delight, 468 00:29:11,356 --> 00:29:15,676 Speaker 3: the warmth, the glow that you have in a relationship 469 00:29:15,916 --> 00:29:20,996 Speaker 3: that is cooperative, an egalitarian and caring of one another, 470 00:29:21,596 --> 00:29:26,756 Speaker 3: that's building trust and feeling safe is what creates those rainbows. 471 00:29:27,076 --> 00:29:29,636 Speaker 1: One of my favorite things is when you just kind 472 00:29:29,636 --> 00:29:33,156 Speaker 1: of walk through the transcripts of couples having these kind 473 00:29:33,196 --> 00:29:36,596 Speaker 1: of conflicts out and you kind of like annotate, like, oh, 474 00:29:36,716 --> 00:29:38,996 Speaker 1: they did a good thing here. I thought it was 475 00:29:39,036 --> 00:29:41,436 Speaker 1: so helpful because it really gave us the sense that, like, 476 00:29:41,956 --> 00:29:43,796 Speaker 1: you know, couples are just trying, they're not going to 477 00:29:43,876 --> 00:29:46,356 Speaker 1: be perfect. Sometimes you can mess up, but you can 478 00:29:46,396 --> 00:29:48,596 Speaker 1: sort of come back if you sort of fix things. 479 00:29:48,636 --> 00:29:49,956 Speaker 1: And I love that in your book you have a 480 00:29:49,996 --> 00:29:51,996 Speaker 1: list of like here's where you can go to if 481 00:29:51,996 --> 00:29:53,556 Speaker 1: you're having a tough time and you need to kind 482 00:29:53,596 --> 00:29:54,636 Speaker 1: of fix things too. 483 00:29:54,916 --> 00:29:58,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, repair is really as good as it gets. And 484 00:29:58,476 --> 00:30:02,796 Speaker 2: relationships really you're trying to make repairs and accepting your 485 00:30:02,836 --> 00:30:08,396 Speaker 2: partner's attempts at repair as really positive things and receive 486 00:30:08,476 --> 00:30:11,516 Speaker 2: the repair as an intention to make things better for 487 00:30:11,556 --> 00:30:12,316 Speaker 2: both of you. 488 00:30:12,316 --> 00:30:14,476 Speaker 1: Give me, give me an example of maybe a repair 489 00:30:14,556 --> 00:30:16,156 Speaker 1: that you might say in a fight, Like if you're 490 00:30:16,156 --> 00:30:18,836 Speaker 1: in the middle of a conflict and you say something unfortunate, 491 00:30:18,836 --> 00:30:19,956 Speaker 1: what would a repair look like? 492 00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:24,076 Speaker 3: John, I'm really sick and tired of the laundry being 493 00:30:24,076 --> 00:30:26,796 Speaker 3: all over the floor. Why do you always leave all 494 00:30:26,836 --> 00:30:27,996 Speaker 3: the laundry on the floor? 495 00:30:28,036 --> 00:30:31,076 Speaker 2: No, honey, I'm starting to feel defensive here. You know, 496 00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:34,236 Speaker 2: can you sing in a gentle way? 497 00:30:34,876 --> 00:30:38,876 Speaker 3: Well, let's see if I can. I don't think I can. 498 00:30:39,036 --> 00:30:42,636 Speaker 3: I'm just sick and tired of this stupid, stupid laundry. No, 499 00:30:42,716 --> 00:30:45,796 Speaker 3: wait a minute, you know I'm just saying it the 500 00:30:45,836 --> 00:30:50,356 Speaker 3: wrong way. Great, Okay, the laundry is on the floor. 501 00:30:51,676 --> 00:30:55,716 Speaker 3: I really don't like seeing it. Would you please clean 502 00:30:55,756 --> 00:30:57,316 Speaker 3: it up before we have dinner? 503 00:30:57,356 --> 00:30:59,916 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I will, thank you. 504 00:31:00,036 --> 00:31:02,036 Speaker 4: That was a lot. You're welcome. 505 00:31:02,916 --> 00:31:03,316 Speaker 2: Okay. 506 00:31:03,476 --> 00:31:05,796 Speaker 3: One of the best repairs in the whole wide world 507 00:31:06,116 --> 00:31:10,316 Speaker 3: is when you start feeling criticized or quit down, just 508 00:31:10,476 --> 00:31:15,436 Speaker 3: say I'm feeling defensive. Could you say that another way 509 00:31:15,596 --> 00:31:20,316 Speaker 3: instead of going offensive? Right, just say I'm feeling defensive, 510 00:31:20,436 --> 00:31:22,876 Speaker 3: and it's It's a great one. 511 00:31:23,516 --> 00:31:25,756 Speaker 1: I think you both are like the Jedi of understanding 512 00:31:25,796 --> 00:31:28,316 Speaker 1: relationships and how we can sort of build empathy in them. 513 00:31:28,436 --> 00:31:30,436 Speaker 1: I'm just curious, you know, do you ever take this 514 00:31:30,596 --> 00:31:32,316 Speaker 1: on the road? You know, I know you watch so 515 00:31:32,356 --> 00:31:34,756 Speaker 1: many couples in the lab, but are you ever just 516 00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:36,916 Speaker 1: out at a restaurant or hanging out in the grocery 517 00:31:36,916 --> 00:31:39,636 Speaker 1: store watching these couple in family dynamics? And do you 518 00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:40,876 Speaker 1: ever intervene. 519 00:31:40,436 --> 00:31:43,636 Speaker 3: One hundred percent of the time? And no, we don't intervene. 520 00:31:44,116 --> 00:31:48,036 Speaker 3: I've got enough client, you know, and they're not asking 521 00:31:48,116 --> 00:31:50,836 Speaker 3: us to intervene, So why would we do that? You know, 522 00:31:50,996 --> 00:31:55,836 Speaker 3: that's intrusive, it's mortifying for them. So the last thing 523 00:31:55,876 --> 00:31:59,116 Speaker 3: I want to do is shame somebody for how they're 524 00:31:59,156 --> 00:32:02,076 Speaker 3: acting in a restaurant. So we'll just sit back and watch, 525 00:32:02,156 --> 00:32:06,236 Speaker 3: and I'll usually feel sad if they're having hard time. 526 00:32:07,316 --> 00:32:07,516 Speaker 1: Ah. 527 00:32:08,756 --> 00:32:14,396 Speaker 3: There is only one situation typically where I might intervene 528 00:32:14,516 --> 00:32:17,676 Speaker 3: just a little bit, and that is in a grocery store. 529 00:32:17,756 --> 00:32:20,316 Speaker 3: We've all seen it. When a child is having a 530 00:32:20,356 --> 00:32:24,836 Speaker 3: temper tantrum. The mother may have a baby in the 531 00:32:24,876 --> 00:32:29,476 Speaker 3: growthree card along with this child who's having the temper tantrum, 532 00:32:29,556 --> 00:32:32,996 Speaker 3: and you can see she's turning red. She's feeling mortified, 533 00:32:33,036 --> 00:32:37,396 Speaker 3: she's feeling embarrassed, horrified, and getting more and more stressed. 534 00:32:37,436 --> 00:32:40,876 Speaker 3: Her voice is getting louder. I may go over to 535 00:32:40,956 --> 00:32:44,796 Speaker 3: her and I may say to her, boy, this is 536 00:32:44,796 --> 00:32:48,276 Speaker 3: a hard day for you, isn't it. This is really tough. God, 537 00:32:48,756 --> 00:32:51,516 Speaker 3: it's so hard when your kids starts screaming in a 538 00:32:51,516 --> 00:32:56,836 Speaker 3: grocery store. Now, notice I'm not criticizing her, which many 539 00:32:56,876 --> 00:32:59,716 Speaker 3: people might want to do if she's yelling at her kid. 540 00:33:00,156 --> 00:33:04,876 Speaker 3: I'm trying to use empathy to help her not feel 541 00:33:04,956 --> 00:33:10,076 Speaker 3: so alone. That's the key to reducing somebody's dress, helping 542 00:33:10,116 --> 00:33:13,396 Speaker 3: them not feel so alone with what they're going through 543 00:33:13,556 --> 00:33:18,676 Speaker 3: By using empathy and validation. Validation meaning yet makes sense 544 00:33:18,716 --> 00:33:22,356 Speaker 3: to me that you're feeling that. Yeah, And sure enough, 545 00:33:22,436 --> 00:33:25,756 Speaker 3: that's what happens. Her voice drops down, she makes contact, 546 00:33:26,236 --> 00:33:29,316 Speaker 3: you know, eye contact with me. I'm smiling at her. 547 00:33:30,836 --> 00:33:34,316 Speaker 3: We share some warmth, and then her voice gets quieter. 548 00:33:35,676 --> 00:33:36,516 Speaker 4: It's a very. 549 00:33:36,316 --> 00:33:41,076 Speaker 3: Simple little intervention. Otherwise we sit back and watch and predict, 550 00:33:41,396 --> 00:33:43,476 Speaker 3: you know, what's going to happen to these couples in 551 00:33:43,516 --> 00:33:46,316 Speaker 3: a restaurant with their phones, not looking at each other 552 00:33:46,676 --> 00:33:47,836 Speaker 3: six years down the row. 553 00:33:49,956 --> 00:33:52,556 Speaker 4: And that can be fun to you should try it. 554 00:33:55,836 --> 00:33:58,156 Speaker 1: That's all we have from our interview with the Gotmins, 555 00:33:58,476 --> 00:34:00,836 Speaker 1: but we're not done with the topic of love just yet. 556 00:34:01,436 --> 00:34:03,996 Speaker 1: So far we've learned from the masters of relationships and 557 00:34:04,036 --> 00:34:07,396 Speaker 1: the champions of complaining. But in our next episode we'll 558 00:34:07,436 --> 00:34:09,756 Speaker 1: examine what we can learn about. Thriving is a couple 559 00:34:09,916 --> 00:34:11,356 Speaker 1: from super communicators. 560 00:34:11,636 --> 00:34:13,516 Speaker 5: What we know about these people is that they are 561 00:34:13,596 --> 00:34:17,436 Speaker 5: not super charismatic. They are not people who are born 562 00:34:17,556 --> 00:34:20,756 Speaker 5: with this. Oftentimes exactly the opposite. They're folks who, if 563 00:34:20,756 --> 00:34:22,876 Speaker 5: you ask them, they say, my parents got divorced and 564 00:34:22,876 --> 00:34:25,076 Speaker 5: I had to become the peacemaker between them. There are 565 00:34:25,076 --> 00:34:27,036 Speaker 5: people who had to think just a little bit more 566 00:34:27,036 --> 00:34:30,076 Speaker 5: about how communication works. And it's that thinking about it 567 00:34:30,156 --> 00:34:33,116 Speaker 5: just half an inch deeper that makes us into supercommunicators. 568 00:34:33,436 --> 00:34:36,276 Speaker 5: But it's skills that anyone can learn, and if anyone 569 00:34:36,356 --> 00:34:38,916 Speaker 5: learns them, anyone can connect with other people. 570 00:34:39,596 --> 00:34:42,196 Speaker 1: All that in our next episode of the Happiness Lab 571 00:34:42,276 --> 00:34:43,996 Speaker 1: with me Doctor Laurie Santos,