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Speaker 1: This episode is with Jeff Ogilvie, Jeff and I caught
Speaker 1: up for a little while, and we've started off by
Speaker 1: talking a little bit about the Masters and Tigers wins,
Speaker 1: since we hadn't talked since before Tiger sealed the deal.
Speaker 1: Part two we'll focus on the PGA Championship this week
Speaker 1: as well as Bethpage Black, So look for that to
Speaker 1: be in your feeds probably on Tuesday night. And this
Speaker 1: one's up here and we'll get you ready to go
Speaker 1: for your second major championship, the PGA Championship at Bethpage. So,
Speaker 1: without further ado, here is Jeff Ogilvie. I miss a green,
Speaker 1: for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 3: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 3: And when I find my ball in a frid Egg
Speaker 3: Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg Friday egg Frida egg
Speaker 3: Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run
Speaker 3: off the course.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's something with short putts? With like
Speaker 1: I think there's like an expectation thing. You know, nobody
Speaker 1: ever struggles with an eight foot part, but people struggle
Speaker 1: with a three foot pipe.
Speaker 3: Why you give yourself less chance to miss it? Right?
Speaker 3: I mean, if you miss an eight foot you don't
Speaker 3: you don't take it too harsh. I think you kind
Speaker 3: of start you don't let yourself miss short puts, and
Speaker 3: that's why you do well, that's why the stress. At least,
Speaker 3: I should say, you let yourself miss an eight foot
Speaker 3: It's like that's start with the ah pow put the
Speaker 3: dirty part. I mean, every pro in the world more
Speaker 3: part parts from eight feet than dirty parts. Why that?
Speaker 3: But it's yeah, it's yeah, whatever you want the scientific
Speaker 3: term for it, but it's true. And I think the
Speaker 3: closure you get to the whole, the less you're willing
Speaker 3: to accept you might miss it, so you get tenser
Speaker 3: about it or something. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's like almost like the expectations the wrong thing.
Speaker 1: Like if if you walked up and you expect to
Speaker 1: make it without thinking about being mad about missing it,
Speaker 1: you'd probably make more of them. But the fact that
Speaker 1: you think about missing it.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know, you think about missing it
Speaker 3: before you hit it, and once you missed you don't
Speaker 3: think about missing it. When you're young, you just think
Speaker 3: about missing it. Once you missed a few, Once you
Speaker 3: missed a few, then it's always in your head, right,
Speaker 3: That's why it's more it's just a pressure, self inflicted pressure.
Speaker 1: That's why some courses I think are easier the first
Speaker 1: time you play them because you don't know where all
Speaker 1: the bad stuff is.
Speaker 3: But that's true on some courses. Some courses it's definitely
Speaker 3: better than not know to just tell me where to
Speaker 3: hit it. I don't want to know where the bad
Speaker 3: stuff is. Yeah, I don't know. If put putting, I
Speaker 3: think there's also there's a massive psychological The guys who
Speaker 3: get like that with their putting are the ones who
Speaker 3: have always hit the ball great, and they just have
Speaker 3: more opportunities to miss. I mean, there's almost no guy
Speaker 3: who's historically not hit it that close to the whole
Speaker 3: or missed a lot of greens. Those guys always put decently,
Speaker 3: they never have problems. It's the guys who have close
Speaker 3: their whole career they're the ones who have problems. Well,
Speaker 3: that has to be psychological.
Speaker 1: If they didn't hit it close, though, they wouldn't be
Speaker 1: playing on tour.
Speaker 3: You could make that argument, but you could also argue
Speaker 3: that they've seen the ball miss more, you know, because
Speaker 3: they've had more eight to twenty footers, whereas the guys
Speaker 3: who don't hit it very well, they chip it up
Speaker 3: to inside five feet every time, So they're more puts
Speaker 3: that they've hit in their life have gone in because
Speaker 3: they've had less parts from outside that I mean, this
Speaker 3: is an accumulation of a career. But I mean Monty
Speaker 3: Adam Scott, like Lucas Glover, these guys who are like
Speaker 3: just stripe shows close their whole life eventually by the
Speaker 3: end struggle with they're putting VJ. You know, Nicholas and
Speaker 3: Tiger are like the exceptions.
Speaker 1: I wonder you just said something that made me think
Speaker 1: of Sergio because Sergio is so he's another guy that's
Speaker 1: you know, struggled with the putter.
Speaker 3: But but then I think, I think exactly the same.
Speaker 1: Is his pitching the most like his short game, the
Speaker 1: most underappreciated great skill of any player, because everybody talks
Speaker 1: about how he hits it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's very artistic around the greens too, like he's
Speaker 3: I mean, he's not seavy, he doesn't play the outrageous shots,
Speaker 3: but he's he always plays the right shot. He's Yeah,
Speaker 3: he's brilliant around the greens, really good, and he looks engaged,
Speaker 3: you know, like he loves loves sitting. Great pitch shots,
Speaker 3: hip shots. Yeah, he's really good around the greens, but
Speaker 3: he hits it, so he hits it so good that
Speaker 3: everybody just notices his ball striking. But he's incredible for
Speaker 3: everywhere except inside about ten feet probably, you know. And
Speaker 3: when he works out out he wins. When he pats
Speaker 3: well inside ten feet he wins.
Speaker 2: It seems like, yeah, yeah, that's exactly.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you look at like Westwood would be
Speaker 1: another guy inside ten feet just I mean, he'd have
Speaker 1: he'd have a couple of majors.
Speaker 3: But again, he's had a career of being ten to
Speaker 3: twelve fifth, ten to twenty feet for Bertie on almost
Speaker 3: every hole. I mean, these guys who stripe it have
Speaker 3: just got more opportunity to miss. I mean, part of
Speaker 3: me is with Speeth with his putting, is that he
Speaker 3: just hits too many puts. And at some point Jackie
Speaker 3: Burke used to say his fix for putting was just
Speaker 3: go hit a one hundred three footers in a row,
Speaker 3: you know, And if you can hold one hundred three
Speaker 3: footers in a row, then you can put because you're
Speaker 3: just seeing the ball go in all the time. And
Speaker 3: when you pack just eight, ten, twelve, fifteen foot of
Speaker 3: is that booty race party as good as you can part,
Speaker 3: you're still seeing the ball miss a lot and that
Speaker 3: just builds up in your head over a long period time.
Speaker 3: Maybe I don't know. That's my theory at least, Like
Speaker 3: the best putters I've ever known haven't practiced they're putting
Speaker 3: that much. I mean they're consistent, but they're five ten
Speaker 3: minutes and then they go on. You know, they don't
Speaker 3: stand there for three hours every Thursday and Friday and
Speaker 3: Wednesday afternoons and just grinding in grooves into the green.
Speaker 3: The great putters don't do that. They come they well
Speaker 3: mean sned okay if you had some patches of practicing
Speaker 3: a little bit. But they're consistently practicing it. But they're
Speaker 3: not like that guy who digs holes in the putt
Speaker 3: and green grooves, because I think they just they get
Speaker 3: the feel, they see the ball go in the hole,
Speaker 3: and then they're happy, you know, then they go out
Speaker 3: in the course. There's something to that. I don't know
Speaker 3: what it is.
Speaker 1: I agree, I think like the short putts, there's something
Speaker 1: to that, like practicing long putts and short putts, but
Speaker 1: nothing in between.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because there's.
Speaker 3: Definitely merit to that. I mean, yeah, Tiger, Tiger always
Speaker 3: when he got on the green, it would hit just
Speaker 3: one hundred foot is the longest puts he could hit
Speaker 3: for like the first five minutes he walked on the green,
Speaker 3: and then at the end he would hit two two
Speaker 3: three footers. That was it. He didn't hit many in between.
Speaker 3: And you never saw Tiger practice his putting onto it.
Speaker 3: You just saw him warm it up. He wasn't chalk
Speaker 3: lining or getting the stringline or doing circles or anything that.
Speaker 1: Really.
Speaker 3: He was generally just being loose, putting around the groom
Speaker 3: with one hand sometimes like it was had a sense
Speaker 3: not so serious.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense, Yeah, no, it does.
Speaker 3: Lighter about it. He was on the green and he
Speaker 3: was kind of bantering with guys and banging puts all
Speaker 3: the way across the green. But it wasn't so his
Speaker 3: putting preparation wasn't so stressful and serious like you see
Speaker 3: some guys. I mean, I don't know. I mean, this
Speaker 3: is just years of watching people, watching what works and
Speaker 3: what doesn't work.
Speaker 1: And this is what I make scuff great because there's
Speaker 1: no no true answer.
Speaker 2: Nobody's guarded.
Speaker 3: That's why putting so nobody's got it.
Speaker 1: It's the most frustrating, putting, the most frustrating aspect of golf.
Speaker 2: I find bugs me so much.
Speaker 3: But it's the most, it's the most. It's the most
Speaker 3: black and white. Right, it's in or it's out. It's
Speaker 3: success or its failure. Whereas with a golf and like
Speaker 3: a full shot, it feels like there's a bit more
Speaker 3: area of gray. That was okay, that was gray. That
Speaker 3: was average, But I can get away with it, and
Speaker 3: you've got more shot. With a bad drive, you've got
Speaker 3: three more shots to make paw. You miss your paw part,
Speaker 3: it's over. You've made bogey. Like there's no coming back
Speaker 3: from that.
Speaker 1: That's so true because like if you hit an average drive,
Speaker 1: it's whatever. But like when you have an eight foot
Speaker 1: slider from left to right, and as soon as you
Speaker 1: hit it, you know it's just gonna miss, like a
Speaker 1: cup rate, you're just like god, that was just terrible.
Speaker 2: You know, you just feel awful.
Speaker 3: And success is only success if the ball goes in.
Speaker 3: Whereas a drive, you've got thirty yards a fair way
Speaker 3: and even in the rough you can kind of you
Speaker 3: can maybe make power or it up to the green.
Speaker 3: But like a putt, it's in or it's out, like
Speaker 3: it's success or its failure. And I think that's the
Speaker 3: only part in golf it's like that, So I think
Speaker 3: that's why it leaves all the scars that it does. Hey,
Speaker 3: I can.
Speaker 1: What'd you think of what do you think of takers?
Speaker 3: When holy wow? Yeah, outrageous. I mean it kind of
Speaker 3: looked it on Saturday a little bit, didn't it. I felt.
Speaker 3: I mean, everybody's written it, and I mean there's been
Speaker 3: as much written about this as anything, but the he
Speaker 3: just carried that air of kind of joy or happiness
Speaker 3: and lightness on the course that he hadn't had since
Speaker 3: he was a kid. It didn't appear to me, and
Speaker 3: he just looked like he was in the right mood.
Speaker 3: And as soon as that back nine came along, it
Speaker 3: was like two thousand and two again, wasn't it. It
Speaker 3: was incredible. He just looked he just looked so comfortable
Speaker 3: down the stretch when nobody else looked completely comfortable, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think they Brooks looked great, and a
Speaker 3: few of the others looked great, but he just looked like,
Speaker 3: heyday Tiger all of a sudden, like, oh now, I
Speaker 3: remember what I'm doing everyone, get out of the way.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna win, you know. And that shot on six
Speaker 3: that shot on sixteen, it was just like was it
Speaker 3: ever going to go anywhere else? You know? It was
Speaker 3: just incredible.
Speaker 1: Shot on fifteen was awesome too, and then and then yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that fifteen shot on fifteen was like perfect. It seemed
Speaker 1: like he was never he's never taking on like the
Speaker 1: really risky line, but he was taking the right line
Speaker 1: every time.
Speaker 3: It's funny. I mean, he had this reputation in his
Speaker 3: heyday of being ultra aggressive, but he actually wasn't. When
Speaker 3: he got in Majors in the last nine holes especially,
Speaker 3: he was ultra conservative. Really never really gave himself a
Speaker 3: chance to relative to a guy like Phil for example,
Speaker 3: who clearly takes the most cavalier approach that he can
Speaker 3: because that's how he likes to play. Tiger was always
Speaker 3: like backfooting two irons and hitting him low and hitting
Speaker 3: it to the fat side of the green and kind
Speaker 3: of that Nicholas make people beat me thing. Regular tournaments,
Speaker 3: he was pretty aggressive, but Majors he was always. He
Speaker 3: was incredibly smart golfer probably underestimated, under talked about how
Speaker 3: smart he was, and how a little danger he would
Speaker 3: put his ball in. Yeah, I mean it was great
Speaker 3: to watch. I mean, what a comeback from what a
Speaker 3: couple of years ago he was not playing golf again
Speaker 3: and get pulled up on the side of the road
Speaker 3: by the police in all sorts of I mean, it
Speaker 3: was like, wow, coming back from that just to come
Speaker 3: on tours impressive, but to realistically be what one of
Speaker 3: the top two or three golfers in the world right now,
Speaker 3: that's pretty outrageous. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean you look at act and now he's finished
Speaker 1: top six and with a win in the last three majors, Like,
Speaker 1: who would have thought that two years ago?
Speaker 2: It's absolutely nuts?
Speaker 3: And no, it's nuts, Yeah, it's nuts.
Speaker 1: What was it like when Taker was in the hunt
Speaker 1: in a major? When you're playing Do you think that
Speaker 1: it had an effect people have talked about Do you
Speaker 1: think there was any Tiger effect and the Master, as
Speaker 1: you said, everybody was a little uncomfortable. Do you think
Speaker 1: that had anything to do with him?
Speaker 3: I think a little bit. I mean, it's not what
Speaker 3: he does. It was the reputation hit for us. Wow.
Speaker 3: If you go back, he never lost a tournament when
Speaker 3: he played in the last group basically, ever, like his
Speaker 3: record of leading on Sunday and closing out the deal
Speaker 3: was what sixty and one or something like. It was
Speaker 3: just it was so it just gave you this. It
Speaker 3: was just this feeling of inevitability. It didn't matter what
Speaker 3: you did, he was going to win. It just felt
Speaker 3: that way because he always did. And even though this
Speaker 3: was false, it made you feel like you had to
Speaker 3: play perfect. Even though he didn't play perfect to beat you.
Speaker 3: He did plenty of bad shots, but or not perfect shots,
Speaker 3: I should say, but you felt like you had to
Speaker 3: play perfect because no one's ever beaten this guy. So wow,
Speaker 3: I'm going to have to play good to beat him.
Speaker 3: And whenever you try to play perfect, you don't play
Speaker 3: very well, right, or it's very difficult to play well
Speaker 3: when you try to play that well. And I think
Speaker 3: that was the intimidation, knowing he was going to be
Speaker 3: hard to beat, knowing you had to play really, really well,
Speaker 3: and whenever you try to play really well, you just
Speaker 3: generally don't. It's I never felt the physical intimidation or
Speaker 3: the oh, this is Tiger. It's like he's just an
Speaker 3: intimidating guy like you probably would standing up next to
Speaker 3: Lebron James or on the blocks with Michael Phelps or something.
Speaker 3: I think that'd be a little different, Like that's a
Speaker 3: physical intimidation with guys like that. Tiger was, and he's
Speaker 3: physically intimidating because he just looked so good and he
Speaker 3: carried himself so well and carries But it was that
Speaker 3: you know, he was going to be there at the end,
Speaker 3: and you had to play one of the best rounds
Speaker 3: you've ever played, and generally, when you try to do that,
Speaker 3: you don't, So to me, that was the intimidation. And
Speaker 3: it's just that feeling of inevitability. It's just he's gonna win,
Speaker 3: like in the crowd knew it, and that everybody knew it.
Speaker 3: It was incredible.
Speaker 1: Watching Moulinari because you know, Molinari played with him at
Speaker 1: the Open, and Tiger had that early flurry there and
Speaker 1: then Tiger kind of self sabotaged with the bogies he
Speaker 1: made and so it was so untiger like. But then
Speaker 1: and Molinari just was kind of going about his business
Speaker 1: and nobody was paying attention to him. And then when
Speaker 1: Tiger faltered, he he you know, played really well down
Speaker 1: the stretch. But but this it seemed like the Masters.
Speaker 1: It was so much different because he was he was leading,
Speaker 1: he was in the last group and all day, you know,
Speaker 1: he made some unbelievable up and downs just to you know,
Speaker 1: to hang on to the lead on the back. But
Speaker 1: he definitely looked different from the way he played within
Speaker 1: the Open. But you know, it could have been just
Speaker 1: you know, bad round or whatever, but it just seemed
Speaker 1: like there was a little bit different feeling and maybe
Speaker 1: that was just more pressure with the Masters and eating.
Speaker 3: I think there's a history thing that the Master's term.
Speaker 3: He's won there, what's he won there? Five times?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 3: Was that fine? He was so wed one? Yeah, so
Speaker 3: he's won four times before. He's clearly barely played the
Speaker 3: Masters where he didn't have a chance with nine holes
Speaker 3: to play. I mean, so for twenty twenty times in
Speaker 3: his career, he's probably come down the stretch on the
Speaker 3: last nine holes with some chance to win the Masters. Malinurry,
Speaker 3: that was his first then, if or basically I'm not
Speaker 3: sure if he'd been fringes of contention before, but let's
Speaker 3: say it was his first or second at the most.
Speaker 3: That's Augusta. You're fighting history always. It's why Freddie always
Speaker 3: plays well, and Phil usually is around, and the usual
Speaker 3: suspects are always around because it's there's just there's ghosts
Speaker 3: at that place, and Tiger's ghosts to the friendliest ones, right,
Speaker 3: I mean, as he can win there, the crowd, the crowd,
Speaker 3: all they want to do is they just they want
Speaker 3: him to win. I mean, it's just I don't know,
Speaker 3: it's this again, there's that's feeling of inevitability that it
Speaker 3: was just gonna happen. I don't know, it's just history
Speaker 3: there is amazing, Like it's he's just been in those
Speaker 3: holes in that position more often than anyone else, and
Speaker 3: he's naturally better at that than most people in history
Speaker 3: as well. So I mean it's a double thing. It's
Speaker 3: a double difficult to beat there. And I think at
Speaker 3: a new course where he hadn't won before, or where no
Speaker 3: one had ever played, a completely fresh place, it might
Speaker 3: be a different story, a bit more of a level
Speaker 3: playing field. But that's the That's the great thing about
Speaker 3: the Masters is once you win, you're kind of you're
Speaker 3: it's not a level playing field anymore, you know. There's
Speaker 3: just that's such an advantage to one it before, especially
Speaker 3: four times.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for the guys that have been in it
Speaker 1: and failed like that's kind of what Ernie was talking
Speaker 1: about when he when he talked about it like he
Speaker 1: was he got in there so many times and every
Speaker 1: time it went the wrong way, You've start to like
Speaker 1: you're almost cursed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And look, it's such a cool tournament to win
Speaker 3: because of the lifetime exemption and the Champions dinner and
Speaker 3: all that little that the coolest little club in golf
Speaker 3: professional golf is that Champions, right. I mean, there's so
Speaker 3: few of them that once you're in it, you haven't
Speaker 3: got anything to lose down the last nine holes. Really,
Speaker 3: it's just I can just add to my legacy here.
Speaker 3: You're still part of the club. Whereas people who are
Speaker 3: trying to get in the club. That's there's more pressure
Speaker 3: involved there, more more more things that construct you, bro,
Speaker 3: I mean, more things that can distract you and start
Speaker 3: thinking about Champions dinners and what's the locker room look
Speaker 3: like up there? And I don't know, I mean what
Speaker 3: goes through everybody else's head, But it's it's certainly easier
Speaker 3: to win a tournament that you've won before, and that
Speaker 3: tournament I would have said that would be amplified.
Speaker 1: That's that's why I struggle with when I play tournament golf,
Speaker 1: is when I'm playing well and I start thinking I
Speaker 1: had like when whether it's like a USGA qualifier and
Speaker 1: I start to think about playing in the tournament, or
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's a you know, a tournament where
Speaker 1: you qualify for match play, you start thinking about match
Speaker 1: play and you're not done with your struck play. Is
Speaker 1: that same kind of stuff that yeah, I mean that
Speaker 1: you and a lot of other tour pros struggle with.
Speaker 3: I think that's natural. I mean I think whenever I
Speaker 3: was playing really, really well in the tournament so I won,
Speaker 3: I don't think I thought about winning it until after
Speaker 3: it was over, or at least till right at the end,
Speaker 3: and I'd never it wasn't about I was thinking about
Speaker 3: winning it, but I wasn't thinking about what would come
Speaker 3: with the win. I think when you start thinking about
Speaker 3: what comes with the win or anything other than just
Speaker 3: hitting good shots and finishing one in front of the
Speaker 3: guy next year, then you can go wrong. That's when
Speaker 3: I went wrong. The ones that didn't work out were like, yeah,
Speaker 3: you start thinking about oh well, well, yeah, if it
Speaker 3: was qualifying for a matchplay thing, or it was well,
Speaker 3: i might win a million dollars today, and I'm going
Speaker 3: to have a two year exemption, and I'm going to
Speaker 3: get to go to Kappallura and the two championship. Maybe
Speaker 3: I'll get in that. It's like, you can't hit good
Speaker 3: shots when you think about all that stuff, you know,
Speaker 3: and then you've got more to lose. You're standing on
Speaker 3: that last team and you want to hit the last
Speaker 3: fair way. If you're thinking about stuff like that, you've
Speaker 3: given yourself a whole lot of stuff to lose, Whereas
Speaker 3: if you just completely hell bent on beating the guy
Speaker 3: next to you, it's a little bit different. I think
Speaker 3: you're just a bit more focused on beating the guy
Speaker 3: next to you rather than all the stuff that comes
Speaker 3: with it. I mean, everybody knows you go play your
Speaker 3: friend for match play, for no money, just for pride,
Speaker 3: and it's a little bit easier to close out than
Speaker 3: if you're playing for a thousand dollars. Like everybody's feeling
Speaker 3: a little different on the last hole for one thousand dollars,
Speaker 3: you know. And I think the more kind of candy
Speaker 3: you put on the the end of it, the result
Speaker 3: the harder it is to kind of stay clear about it.
Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, focused about it, not get distracted. And
Speaker 3: I think the Masters does that more than any place.
Speaker 3: It gives you distractions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: There's more more things to look ahead to. What you
Speaker 1: said about losing, you know, then you have more to
Speaker 1: lose if you're thick and hat which makes a lot
Speaker 1: of sense.
Speaker 3: I mean, Tiger probably felt like he had something to lose.
Speaker 3: I mean, everyone in the last few groups thinks that
Speaker 3: they're the one who's going to win that week, or
Speaker 3: they hoping they are, and so there's they're all kind
Speaker 3: of carrying a little bit of that. But Tiger would
Speaker 3: carry the lead. I mean, he he had nothing to
Speaker 3: prove at this point. And that's the thing. He's actually
Speaker 3: been playing looking like he hasn't trying to prove anything anymore.
Speaker 3: His whole career he looked like, especially when he was
Speaker 3: struggling a bit, that sort of kind of at least
Speaker 3: in the Mages between eight and now, he always looked
Speaker 3: like he was trying to prove something, you know, this
Speaker 3: time it didn't look didn't look that way. It was
Speaker 3: just I'm just great. Look how good I'm playing. How
Speaker 3: fun is it to play well again and getting contention.
Speaker 3: It was kind of a different air he carried to me.
Speaker 3: And trying to prove something I think sometimes can overwhelm
Speaker 3: you mentally, at least it did to me.
Speaker 1: Well, you're trying harder, you know, mm hmm. A lot
Speaker 1: of things you try hard, you have less success than
Speaker 1: if you just let it happen. It's like when you're
Speaker 1: trying to write. You know, if I sit down and
Speaker 1: try and write, it's probably not going to happen. But
Speaker 1: I wrote something today because I was sitting doing something
Speaker 1: else and it popped in my head and I just
Speaker 1: wrote it in an hour.
Speaker 2: And it was like, why isn't it always that easy?
Speaker 3: Yeah, White, for it to happen as opposed to might
Speaker 3: can happen. Yeah, it's a human knightschat. That's hard. That's
Speaker 3: the challenge.
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Speaker 1: for you member SIPC. Now back to Jeff Ogilvie. So
Speaker 1: we're they're at trendy four US this week. This will
Speaker 1: this will air the Monday after tourney for US. What
Speaker 1: do you everybody focuses in on the low scores that
Speaker 1: people shoot out there for as as a player, do
Speaker 1: you do you look at, you know, twenty three under
Speaker 1: what wives won last year and think, God, that's crazy.
Speaker 3: Well I played last year. It was doable last year,
Speaker 3: But I don't think we should measure that winning score
Speaker 3: on just one year. It wasn't probably a typical Dallas
Speaker 3: week in May, Like it wasn't as windy as it
Speaker 3: could be. Of course, I feel like we it was.
Speaker 3: The fairways were firm, but the greens weren't crazy firm.
Speaker 3: So it was kind of a combination of it played
Speaker 3: short but you could hit it close to the hole
Speaker 3: and it's I don't know, it's kind of a course
Speaker 3: that I think will actually get people to develop a
Speaker 3: bit more respect for it over the time over the years.
Speaker 3: Like I think people Aaron played amazingly well ask you
Speaker 3: to shoot that. I don't know, I mean, and I
Speaker 3: don't think there's anything wrong with last scores. I don't
Speaker 3: It is kind of intimidating. Some tournaments, like Kapalou was
Speaker 3: always like this. You'd start the tournament knowing you had
Speaker 3: to be mid twenties to win the tournament, and even
Speaker 3: part after nine holes, it starts seeming almost ridiculous that
Speaker 3: you could think of getting to that score. But I
Speaker 3: don't know. I don't think guys really think about that
Speaker 3: too much, to be honest. I think guys play the
Speaker 3: first round as well as they can, and halfway through
Speaker 3: the first round they look at the board and see
Speaker 3: see what the scores look like and kind of kind
Speaker 3: of get a feel from that. Really, that's what I did.
Speaker 3: That's what I did. Anyway, I get a feel after
Speaker 3: nine or twelve holes. If you especially if you play
Speaker 3: all you're playing in the afternoon, you look at the
Speaker 3: scores in the morning on Thursday, and you get a
Speaker 3: pretty good sense of what the week's going to be
Speaker 3: like just after the half the field's played nine holes. Really,
Speaker 3: you just get a feel for it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a shame, it's gonna it's it rained a
Speaker 1: ton yesterday. It's rain It's going to rain more this weekend.
Speaker 1: They say, so soft again, and I think, I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously they're going to have a low score.
Speaker 2: But to me it seemed like the course in this it.
Speaker 1: Allows every type of player to have a chance out there.
Speaker 1: Did you feel that way?
Speaker 3: I think every player's got a chance because it's not
Speaker 3: outrageously long, although there is certainly a big advantage to
Speaker 3: hitting it long in places. It's quite strategic, as people
Speaker 3: have talked about, you've got to there's more than one
Speaker 3: way to play it. There's quite a few kind of
Speaker 3: central central line hazards, you know, bunkers in the middle
Speaker 3: of the fairways that you can go short of, over
Speaker 3: right or left of, and that kind of There's quite
Speaker 3: a few of these on that course, and it's quite
Speaker 3: a different test than a regular tour event, which is
Speaker 3: I think interesting and got guys it it looks like
Speaker 3: a better field this year, and I think the field
Speaker 3: will get better every year, to be honest, because I
Speaker 3: think it's a good player's golf course. I think when
Speaker 3: you're playing well and you're a good player, I think
Speaker 3: you feel like you could separate there a little bit.
Speaker 3: I don't think the score relative to par Is really matters,
Speaker 3: to be honest with you, but it would be certainly
Speaker 3: more fun. It's certainly more fun to play on its
Speaker 3: firm because it's and then it brings in the guy
Speaker 3: who wants to just hit low two ones off the
Speaker 3: tee all week and really run it up and play
Speaker 3: really smart, you know, like say Tiger would have done
Speaker 3: in his heyday, or isn't it softer? There'll be just
Speaker 3: kind of more sort of drivers and yeah, less less
Speaker 3: kind of need for like great angles and stuff, although
Speaker 3: the way the greens are there angle is is still
Speaker 3: very important. There's still there's some spots on the fairway
Speaker 3: there that are awful for some pins and you have
Speaker 3: to be fifty yards on the other side of the
Speaker 3: fairway the next day, like it varies. There's a few really,
Speaker 3: there's some interesting stuff there. So good good week for
Speaker 3: a good caddy and a guy who is happy to
Speaker 3: kind of change your strategy day to day depending on
Speaker 3: the tea, positions and the pins. So I think you'll
Speaker 3: see good play regards to the scores and the conditions.
Speaker 3: I think you'll see like the better players on tour,
Speaker 3: and I mean everyone on plays a good tour, but
Speaker 3: a good player, but the better player, like the quality
Speaker 3: class players will generally get up a top there. I
Speaker 3: would think because it's it's it's it takes more than
Speaker 3: just the normal tournament. So I think shoot twenty three under.
Speaker 3: I think you've got to do everything really well.
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 1: I was talking to David Normoyle, who was like, the uh,
Speaker 1: he's a he's a great historian. And David, yeah, so
Speaker 1: you had this great thing. I was telling him about
Speaker 1: an article I'm going to write and I'm kind of
Speaker 1: spilling the beans on this art, but like.
Speaker 2: About score to part.
Speaker 1: So last year US Senior Women's Open, Laura Dv's wins
Speaker 1: at at fourteen under or sixteen under, sixteen under all right,
Speaker 1: at the Senior Open Championship at Saint Andrews. So that
Speaker 1: was at Chicago Golf Senior Open at Saint Andrews twelve underwins.
Speaker 1: And then at Shinnecock US Open Brooks wins at minus four.
Speaker 1: What course was the easiest by what measure? Well, naturally, everybody,
Speaker 1: you didn't take the vape of most people of the
Speaker 1: Chicago Golf easiest by far, but they played Chicago Golf
Speaker 1: par seventy three. They played Saint Andrews par seventy two,
Speaker 1: and they played Shinnacock par seventy so they all shot
Speaker 1: to seventy six.
Speaker 3: In their game. So that's always been my thing about par,
Speaker 3: like it's you've got to take the relative to par
Speaker 3: with a grain of salt. I mean, it's obviously somewhat
Speaker 3: of a measure, but I mean if you made Oakmond
Speaker 3: a par eighty, is it then an easy course? No?
Speaker 3: You know, we're still shooting two ninety for the week
Speaker 3: or two ninety four or whatever we're shooting, and like
Speaker 3: it's tear away, tearing hair out the whole way around,
Speaker 3: just because we're we end up twenty five hunder part
Speaker 3: you're not like, it's not you know, And that.
Speaker 1: Goes to like, you know, when you play a tournament
Speaker 1: and you shoot six, all sixty eighth aren't equal. If
Speaker 1: you shoot a sixty eight and it's blown twenty five
Speaker 1: in its firm and as fast, that's a lot different
Speaker 1: than a sixty eight on a soft course with no.
Speaker 3: Wind completely one hundred percent like you should sixty eight
Speaker 3: in Palm Springs and you're walking off gun of the
Speaker 3: range wondering what's wrong with your goal? What's wrong with
Speaker 3: your goal? You know, you shoot sixty out at Oakmont.
Speaker 3: I mean you're framing that card and putting it on
Speaker 3: the wall, so it I mean it. Yeah, it does vary.
Speaker 3: It's score relative parties, I guess important. And it's a
Speaker 3: good measure during that week, measuring how everyone played relative
Speaker 3: to the other one hundred and fifty five players. But
Speaker 3: it's not really a good measure of difficulty, I don't think,
Speaker 3: because the thirteenth of the Masters, for example, is a
Speaker 3: really easy five, but a difficult three. You know, just
Speaker 3: if it was a Part four, it would be considered
Speaker 3: a really really hard hole. As a Part five, it's
Speaker 3: considered a really really easy hole. But it's the same. Like,
Speaker 3: I mean, you still have to shoot to seventy two
Speaker 3: or something to win the Masters or whatever it is,
Speaker 3: and you have to play that hole in sixteen shots
Speaker 3: or whatever it is. I mean, that's difficult. Whatever the
Speaker 3: number is on the tea, it doesn't change the whole
Speaker 3: the part, but it is a good way to measure
Speaker 3: people in a week.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope they That's the premise of the whole thing,
Speaker 1: is like they got to break the par barrier go
Speaker 1: under seventy and you know all the problems will be solved.
Speaker 2: Why not just have par sixty seven?
Speaker 3: Well, certainly the USGA if they do, if some consider
Speaker 3: them getting the set up a little bit wrong in
Speaker 3: the US Open, and a lot do and they say
Speaker 3: they don't, but they seem to have an obsession with
Speaker 3: us shooting somewhere near two hundred and eighty shots, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean, they're like four seventies to be like,
Speaker 3: that's the benchmark, that's the lowest we want anyone to
Speaker 3: go for the week. If they got that out of
Speaker 3: their head, they'd have more chance to set it up well,
Speaker 3: I mean, shinnecoques are past seventy two? Really seventy one?
Speaker 3: Seventy two properly seventy one? I think maybe naturally. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but anyway, just set it up as well as you can.
Speaker 3: And if it's some weeks it's not windy, and at
Speaker 3: sixteen under, well the guy who wins is still the
Speaker 3: best player because he's still navigated seventy two holes at
Speaker 3: a great course better than anybody else. The score. Nobody
Speaker 3: remembers what the score under par was two years later,
Speaker 3: five years later, unless it's historically crazy to me if
Speaker 3: they took away if they didn't care what people shot,
Speaker 3: or if you don't care, it's purely like outside of
Speaker 3: the USJ just everybody. If you don't care what people shoot,
Speaker 3: you've got much. You can just set the course up
Speaker 3: as well as you can, you know, which means some
Speaker 3: stuff can be really hard. Some stuff's going to seem
Speaker 3: really easy. But I know Augusta seems to care what
Speaker 3: They always end up with the same sort of winning score.
Speaker 3: But it doesn't seem like they care what people shoot,
Speaker 3: you know, they just try to have their course so
Speaker 3: that the guy who plays the best that week wins.
Speaker 3: And I don't think you always get that when you
Speaker 3: focus on score relative to part, but I could be
Speaker 3: completely wrong.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is I was wondering.
Speaker 1: As a player, Like something I think about is you
Speaker 1: got all these tea boxes on these horse Why does
Speaker 1: every day of the week they always put the tea
Speaker 1: backs in relatively the same position for the most part.
Speaker 1: Why isn't like the lower tee ever used for a tournament?
Speaker 1: Like why aren't they ever putting it up there? Is
Speaker 1: it because of like the infrastructure?
Speaker 3: I guess it's Wow, there's some somewhat. I would say
Speaker 3: the PGA Tour as good as they are at setting
Speaker 3: up golf tournaments for zero controversy. You know, their genius
Speaker 3: is never having a bad I've never seen a bad
Speaker 3: pin in twenty years and a PGA Tour event, Wow,
Speaker 3: I have some average ones, but not outrageous ones. US
Speaker 3: Opens I've seen twenty, right, and I've played far more,
Speaker 3: far more PGA Tour events. The US Opens Australian opens
Speaker 3: have had historically had some crazy setups and like and
Speaker 3: walk offs with the greens get too fast and stuff
Speaker 3: way way back. But like, generally the PGA Tour masters
Speaker 3: are having like a controversy free setup. But because of that,
Speaker 3: I think there's a lack of imagination sometimes in setup
Speaker 3: because they're so good at avoiding the crazy stuff that
Speaker 3: sometimes you have to kind of risk a bit of
Speaker 3: crazy stuff to get more interesting. You know. It's their
Speaker 3: business model to not have controversy. They want the golfer
Speaker 3: to be the star on Sunday afternoon, not the golf course.
Speaker 3: That's the mile. These guys are good, or they used
Speaker 3: to be good. Now they're living under path. But it's
Speaker 3: the nature of trying to avoid controversy is you're going
Speaker 3: to probably lose a little bit of interest. I still
Speaker 3: think they should path three. Certainly we play a lot
Speaker 3: on tour that seemed to be one eight seven, one
Speaker 3: ninety one, eighty eight and one eighty six for the week.
Speaker 3: You know where there's certainly scope on every course in
Speaker 3: America that's got multiple teas to have it at one
Speaker 3: twenty with that crazy little front pin and then two
Speaker 3: fifteen the next day and funnily loove Mike Davis who
Speaker 3: started doing that. Remember in the US Open Tory Pines,
Speaker 3: Tory Pines, he put fourteen way up, way up that day,
Speaker 3: drivable and a few different things, which I think is great.
Speaker 3: I think you should have more often August to do
Speaker 3: a little bit or gust to play that fourth t
Speaker 3: off the members team once usually that's really the only
Speaker 3: tea they do it. But that's sixteen. They move right
Speaker 3: up sixteen, they move right up that one day usually
Speaker 3: sort of twenty thirty yards up from the back to
Speaker 3: that right pin. Especially it's done a little bit. It's
Speaker 3: not done enough.
Speaker 1: Though, yeah, especially with courses that are like seventy five
Speaker 1: hundred yards like where they might not use every back tea.
Speaker 1: Just change it up a bunch every day. I think
Speaker 1: that you'd get a better player. It's not like the
Speaker 1: same thing. It's like you're asking the same question every
Speaker 1: single day, or you could ask a bunch of different questions.
Speaker 3: It's certainly when Mike started doing that in the US Open,
Speaker 3: that was certainly in the practice rounds. Very interesting to see.
Speaker 3: Everyone has had theories about which Holey was going to do,
Speaker 3: which path four was he going to do it too?
Speaker 3: And which hole shall be practice teeing off and all
Speaker 3: they're cutting this front tee on twelve, we should actually
Speaker 3: hit a shot off this just in case. And it
Speaker 3: created such kind of confusion or anticipation, or it made
Speaker 3: your preparation a little bit more difficult. And I think
Speaker 3: preparation is a big part of it too, right, So
Speaker 3: if there's always the threat, if they'd do it enough
Speaker 3: that it's always a chance to make a five hundred
Speaker 3: yard path or three eighty, or to make a two
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty yard part three one seventeen or something.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's if they'd do it a
Speaker 3: little bit, it throws. You can't just walk from the
Speaker 3: fourth green with a six on in your hand because
Speaker 3: that path three is always a six on you know,
Speaker 3: I mean, which happens a little bit onto it you
Speaker 3: kind of you know what club you hitting off the
Speaker 3: next tea before you even get to it a little bit.
Speaker 3: It's some of the most interesting times, or at least
Speaker 3: for me, my most uncomfortable times on tour, or when
Speaker 3: I don't know what club to hit off a tea
Speaker 3: or what strategy to play because it's we've been thrown
Speaker 3: a curveball, you know.
Speaker 1: You know. The thing too, is that especially with classic courses,
Speaker 1: with all the new back teas, sometimes the angle when
Speaker 1: they had to get the distance, you know, it almost
Speaker 1: like makes the T shot easier because it it gives
Speaker 1: you like more, you know how when you move it
Speaker 1: onto an angle, it might open it up a little
Speaker 1: bit more, make the T shot, and then you put
Speaker 1: it up on the original tea and all of a
Speaker 1: sudden you're standing on that tee and that the look
Speaker 1: of the hole just doesn't it doesn't feel as comfortable,
Speaker 1: and that it's what you're saying, is the comfortability. Like
Speaker 1: I know, when I move up and play up sometimes
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know where to hit the ball.
Speaker 3: Well, I always like we go play. I mean I've
Speaker 3: played Whisper Rocketnet. I mean a thousand times, I don't know.
Speaker 3: And sometimes when if you go out with say the
Speaker 3: older members or the members who don't want to play
Speaker 3: off the very back teas like we do, we'll go
Speaker 3: up to like the one tea up or even two
Speaker 3: teas up. That's harder for me because I don't know
Speaker 3: how club you hit off any tea because it's just
Speaker 3: a routine off the back teas. I just pull drive
Speaker 3: out there and three with there and this is a
Speaker 3: four iron t shot or whatever it is. But it's
Speaker 3: always I don't have to make a decision. Whereas I
Speaker 3: go up to front tees, it's like, oh, what can
Speaker 3: I hit here? How do I run it? Can I
Speaker 3: run it out there? The angles are all wrong, the
Speaker 3: distances are all wrong. And you could do that four
Speaker 3: days in a row around a same golf course to
Speaker 3: pros every year, really on courses that it works, and
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, that runout that's never been in
Speaker 3: play is in play. You know that bunker that you
Speaker 3: always carry all now you can't. And it just that
Speaker 3: seems like quite an interesting way, And another's just another
Speaker 3: layer to it right, another layer of complexity.
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