Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison.
Speaker 1: Today we talked to doctor Colet Thompson of the USGA
Speaker 1: about how golf courses are beneficial to the environment and
Speaker 1: could be even more so. But first, this episode is
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Speaker 1: Com TFE two five. So there's this perception out there
Speaker 1: that golf courses are not good for the environment, that
Speaker 1: they use too many chemicals, too much energy, and just
Speaker 1: in general that they're not ecologically beneficial or sustainable. And
Speaker 1: as a golfer, I've always thought that this perception was
Speaker 1: overly simplistic. I look at golf courses and often what
Speaker 1: I see is not a blight on the environment, but
Speaker 1: instead wonderful, vital green space that's worth protecting. The problem is,
Speaker 1: I've never really had specific evidence or research to point
Speaker 1: to and say, see, golf actually can be a big
Speaker 1: contributor to a healthy ecosystem. So I figured, since Earth
Speaker 1: Day is coming up this Thursday, it's Earthweek, I suppose
Speaker 1: it was time to bring on someone who really knows
Speaker 1: this subject, and few people know more about it than
Speaker 1: Cole Thompson. Cole got his bachelor's, master's, and PhD from
Speaker 1: Kansas State University, and he's worked as a professor at
Speaker 1: the University of Nebraska and cal Poly. These days, he
Speaker 1: helps direct the USGA Turf, Grass and Environmental Research Program,
Speaker 1: which provides funding for all kinds of different projects, including
Speaker 1: ones that have to do with the relationship between golf
Speaker 1: courses and the environment. In this episode, we dig into
Speaker 1: a couple of those studies and just generally talk about
Speaker 1: how to understand what golf courses bring to an ecosystem
Speaker 1: and how they might be able to bring more. All right,
Speaker 1: here's Cole Thompson. I miss a green, for example, I'm
Speaker 1: already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker,
Speaker 1: I'm really upset. And when I find my ball.
Speaker 2: In a fried egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg
Speaker 2: Frida egg fride egg Brian egg Frida egg bride egg lie.
Speaker 1: I'm about ready to run off the hump course. So
Speaker 1: we've talked to a lot of people on this podcast
Speaker 1: with easily explainable jobs golf course architect, professional golfer. People
Speaker 1: might not be familiar with your particular profession, your particular
Speaker 1: job at the USGA, So could you tell me a
Speaker 1: little bit about that and what your department is doing there?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, And I mean you're exactly right. It's not
Speaker 2: an easy thing to describe. You should hear some of
Speaker 2: the conversations I have with people I meet. It depends
Speaker 2: on how interested they are, how much detail I give,
Speaker 2: sort of very vague, and then maybe we eventually went
Speaker 2: to it down. But so the Green Section itself has
Speaker 2: been around for one hundred years as part of the
Speaker 2: USGA and was founded or established initially to conduct research
Speaker 2: to help golf courses manage turf more sustainably but still
Speaker 2: provide the play conditions that they want to provide. And
Speaker 2: so that was the genesis of the Green Section, and
Speaker 2: over the years it has evolved and changed in various ways.
Speaker 2: Around the mid century, the course Consulting Service was founded,
Speaker 2: and there was a focus on not just conducting research
Speaker 2: but getting it out to the masses. So that was
Speaker 2: a kind of a big turning point. And then later
Speaker 2: on in the eighties we started the internal kind of
Speaker 2: focused research being conducted by people in the USJ started
Speaker 2: to expand, and really that was in the sixties and seventies.
Speaker 2: The USJA started funding universities a lot more to do
Speaker 2: research with scientists at specific universities, and then that has
Speaker 2: increased even more with the advent of the program that
Speaker 2: I now manage, the Turf Grass Environmental Research Program that
Speaker 2: was essentially established in nineteen eighty three, and it's a
Speaker 2: competitive grant program, a competitive RFP essentially where we have
Speaker 2: a set of research priorities and we ask university scientists
Speaker 2: to propose, you know, ways that they think they can
Speaker 2: make progress against those priorities. And then with an advisory
Speaker 2: panel of scientists, you know, I review and select which
Speaker 2: ones of those we think we should go after support.
Speaker 2: And then we we kind of work with those scientists
Speaker 2: for the next few years to get reports on their
Speaker 2: projects and eventually publish it in the peer review literature,
Speaker 2: which is an important record and an important review of
Speaker 2: the science to make sure that the scientists who conducted
Speaker 2: the work that their peers approve it. And and that's
Speaker 2: an important step that we that we think is very important.
Speaker 2: And so anyway, that's the that's the research program, but
Speaker 2: the the in how it runs today, the course consulting
Speaker 2: service is still very much around. At some point the
Speaker 2: the Green Section record UH was established and it's gone
Speaker 2: by various names. It's a it's a digital magazine that
Speaker 2: the USGA circulates anyone can subscribe to. It's freely available,
Speaker 2: so that is published twice a month. And then recently
Speaker 2: we have a tools development team where there are some
Speaker 2: folks actually working on developing digital tools for they kind
Speaker 2: of organize a lot of the data that research and
Speaker 2: science have produced over the years, So that that's kind
Speaker 2: of a high level overview of the Green Section and
Speaker 2: in all of our parallel teams and missions that are
Speaker 2: working towards that common goal of optimizing resource use and
Speaker 2: playing conditions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the USGA Green Section is doing a ton of
Speaker 1: really interesting work right now. And one of the programs,
Speaker 1: the one that we're sort of going to focus on
Speaker 1: today is the turf Grass and Environmental Research Program, which
Speaker 1: you refer to earlier, where you're giving grants to academic
Speaker 1: institutions essentially to conduct research that's relevant to golf course
Speaker 1: management golf course maintenance. So you know, there are many
Speaker 1: different kinds of turf grass research that you might fund
Speaker 1: right there. There are many different kind of purposes and
Speaker 1: objectives that this kind of research might have. What what
Speaker 1: kind of research or what kinds of research is the
Speaker 1: USGA particularly interested in funding right now? What are kind
Speaker 1: of the imperatives?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we are. Our three kind of broad initiatives
Speaker 2: are to you know, sustainable golf management and playing conditions,
Speaker 2: protecting and conserving water resources, and identifying and developing novel
Speaker 2: plant materials which you can think of as plant breeding,
Speaker 2: and so that those are pretty three pretty wide nets,
Speaker 2: and people people fit into them in a lot of
Speaker 2: different ways with their research poshai and so essentially it
Speaker 2: runs the gamut of the projects that we support, from
Speaker 2: very basic science, you know, genetics and breeding trying to
Speaker 2: understand how how plants grow and why grasses respond to
Speaker 2: different stresses the way they do, all the way to
Speaker 2: very applied research where there's a very problematic weed or
Speaker 2: disease or insect that somebody needs how to control, and
Speaker 2: you know, we want to develop a very specific set
Speaker 2: of strategies just to control that various best so and
Speaker 2: everything in between, irrigation management, fertilizer scheduling and management and cultivation,
Speaker 2: managing the soil profile which confers a lot of the
Speaker 2: traits that we appreciate of golf course turf.
Speaker 1: So a specific topic that I wanted to dig into
Speaker 1: with you, and something that's very widely discussed is how
Speaker 1: golf courses might bring more benefits to the environment than
Speaker 1: people know. And there are a couple of projects that
Speaker 1: the USGA is helping to fund right now or has
Speaker 1: helped fund recently that are looking into some of those
Speaker 1: benefits and really trying to understand them because it is
Speaker 1: a complex topic and one that people make that kind
Speaker 1: of these declarations about that are not necessarily supported by
Speaker 1: research or reason. One of those projects is called the
Speaker 1: Natural Capital Project. Could you tell me about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, So the Natural Capital Project started in twenty
Speaker 2: seventeen and it's a collaboration with scientists at the University
Speaker 2: of Minnesota and now Michigan State University. But the Natural
Speaker 2: Capital Project itself is a conglomerate of different research institutions
Speaker 2: and nonprofits that are trying to define the well, basically,
Speaker 2: what's in their name, the natural capital that landscapes provide,
Speaker 2: and how we can leverage that and measure that. And
Speaker 2: so this group of scientists had an interest in trying
Speaker 2: to apply that to golf scapes and trying to understand
Speaker 2: better how golf courses fit into communities and what benefits
Speaker 2: they provide, especially in urban communities. And they essentially were
Speaker 2: they developed a methodology where they can assess and model
Speaker 2: the basically the services and disservices of golf course provides, right,
Speaker 2: because it can go both ways, but they were able
Speaker 2: to quantify, you know, this set of benefits at the
Speaker 2: start at the starting phase just the golf courses in
Speaker 2: the metropolitan area of Minneapolis and Saint Paul and basically
Speaker 2: get an average response for what a golf course, what
Speaker 2: benefits it provides or doesn't provide to that community. And
Speaker 2: when they're using these models, they're basically using data published
Speaker 2: from previous research that shows, you know, like what a
Speaker 2: golf course might provide from an urban heat island mitigation standpoint,
Speaker 2: a temperature mitigation standpoint, from a biodiversity standpoint, or how
Speaker 2: many nutrients are or are not, you know, leached from
Speaker 2: the property or run off from the property into the
Speaker 2: watershed or nearby streams in the watershed. And so they're
Speaker 2: able to use all of that data that has been
Speaker 2: collected over many years and kind of feed it into
Speaker 2: the background of land use characterizations golf courses or something else,
Speaker 2: and then how it's managed. And it's basically it comes
Speaker 2: down to it's a really powerful communication tool because it's
Speaker 2: a way to organize all of that research and say,
Speaker 2: you know, based on these parameters, golf courses provide X
Speaker 2: compared to some other land use. And that's how they
Speaker 2: approached it, because you know, golf courses are under a
Speaker 2: lot of pressure. They're typically set on very valuable lands,
Speaker 2: or they're you know, unfortunately they might be failing, especially
Speaker 2: municipal course, and a city might be trying to decide
Speaker 2: what to do with that golf course. And very often
Speaker 2: if a golf course is replaced, it becomes a park
Speaker 2: or a residential landscape, or even an industrial park. And so,
Speaker 2: and then the most important comparison I would argue to
Speaker 2: a golf course is the background natural landscape. Because we
Speaker 2: can only hope to be as good as the background landscape.
Speaker 2: That has to be the benchmark. And so they basically
Speaker 2: compared golf courses to all these other land uses again
Speaker 2: for a set of services and disservices, and basically showed
Speaker 2: that the golf courses provide a very similar or better
Speaker 2: urban heat island mitigation. So they cool surrounding communities on
Speaker 2: par with parks and natural areas. They export slightly more
Speaker 2: nutrients than those naturalized landscapes, but they export less nutrients
Speaker 2: than residential communities. Right, so they're kind of they provide
Speaker 2: an intermediate level of service, the researchers would say. And
Speaker 2: then in terms of pollinator habitat, again they're not quite
Speaker 2: as good as the natural landscapes, according to this research,
Speaker 2: but better than than urban residential landscapes. And so so
Speaker 2: it's kind of just this way for everybody to wrap
Speaker 2: their head around, you know, how how a golf course
Speaker 2: really does plug into a community and what it actually
Speaker 2: provides rather than rather than guessing.
Speaker 1: Right, because when you're making these sort of urban planning decisions,
Speaker 1: typically in the past people have based those decisions more
Speaker 1: on on kind of sometimes sloppy perceptions about the environmental
Speaker 1: the relative environmental benefits of golf courses, and this study
Speaker 1: gets gets quite a bit more specific. You you mentioned
Speaker 1: urban cooling that the golf courses provide. You know, how
Speaker 1: do we put this? You mentioned the urban heat island. Essentially, cities,
Speaker 1: cities are hot right because they're you know, they don't
Speaker 1: have this kind of plant life and natural landscape, and
Speaker 1: so you know, they generate quite a bit of heat
Speaker 1: and golf course has helped to lessen that impact a
Speaker 1: little bit. So could you talk about what's the importance
Speaker 1: of that, How can we portray that to the public
Speaker 1: as something that is an important ecosystem service to use
Speaker 1: the language of the project that golf courses provide.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, and I mean you're exactly right.
Speaker 2: The city is because it's a built environment. The concrete,
Speaker 2: an asphalt, all of those materials, they just retain heat
Speaker 2: more than plant material does, right, and so they heat
Speaker 2: up during the day and then they don't cool down
Speaker 2: at night. And so it's kind of a twofold problem
Speaker 2: where wherever you have an actively growing plant, waters water
Speaker 2: is always flowing through that plant, and then it evaporates
Speaker 2: off the leaf surfaces and that's a cooling process. It's
Speaker 2: just like sweat evaporating from your skin. And so that's
Speaker 2: kind of the I guess the thermodynamics of how it works, right,
Speaker 2: and why that green space is actually cooler than the city.
Speaker 2: But the important thing to emphasize is that the benefit
Speaker 2: of that cooling goes beyond the boundaries of the course.
Speaker 2: I don't remember the exact distance away from the golf
Speaker 2: course that they have found it provides, but but it
Speaker 2: does provide that service to the to its periphery right
Speaker 2: to it to a certain distance away from the core
Speaker 2: of the golf course. And and I mean this can
Speaker 2: translate to to a couple of important deliverables. I mean
Speaker 2: one is just lower lower energy use, right if it's
Speaker 2: if if if you have a cooler ambient environment, it
Speaker 2: might require less less air conditioning, and so people are
Speaker 2: using less energy potentially. And then there's also I mean,
Speaker 2: especially with some at risk populations, older people or people
Speaker 2: that have other health challenges. I mean to go to
Speaker 2: like the really far extreme deaths from from excessive heat,
Speaker 2: you know, are are an issue, and so there's actually
Speaker 2: a human health component there too. And not saying that
Speaker 2: golf courses saving them in the city are going to
Speaker 2: save x many lives in a year, but but but
Speaker 2: there there can be far reaching implications to to this
Speaker 2: type of effect.
Speaker 1: So one of the things that people need to do
Speaker 1: when they consider the the importance of golf courses to
Speaker 1: urban environments is is to compare them to other land uses.
Speaker 1: You know. I think we're well aware that, you know,
Speaker 1: the cooling services provided by a golf course, although it
Speaker 1: is surprising to me that they're on a level more
Speaker 1: or less with natural areas and parks. That's a cool
Speaker 1: finding of the project that might be somewhat unexpected. We
Speaker 1: know that golf courses as green spaces are more beneficial
Speaker 1: to the environment than an industrial park. I think people
Speaker 1: are aware of that I think perhaps the more important
Speaker 1: comparison will be with those natural areas, as you said earlier,
Speaker 1: and with parks, because those are the you know, for
Speaker 1: people who are sort of environmentally minded, those are the
Speaker 1: uses of golf course land that are most often suggested.
Speaker 1: So if someone's going to go about comparing the environmental
Speaker 1: benefits of a golf course to say a park, let's
Speaker 1: just start with a city park. How would they go
Speaker 1: about that? How do you think what would be the
Speaker 1: best way to start thinking that through?
Speaker 2: It's you know, it's a good question. And and and
Speaker 2: the first I think the first thing that especially with
Speaker 2: armed with this study, the first thing that people will
Speaker 2: look at specific to Minneapolis Saint Paul, and I should
Speaker 2: mention that they're also undergoing the same analysis in six
Speaker 2: other cities, and so we are getting some other geographies
Speaker 2: worked into this. And and there are important geographical differences
Speaker 2: in how landscapes or how golf courses performed to the
Speaker 2: background natural landscape, you know, think of a desert background
Speaker 2: natural landscape versus that in Minnesota. So there are differences.
Speaker 2: But if we just focus for your question on Minnesota
Speaker 2: and think about what a what a natural or you
Speaker 2: wanted to look at a park versus a golf course.
Speaker 2: So if we just if we just look at a park,
Speaker 2: you know, armed with this study, a reader can say, well,
Speaker 2: it's it's it's better or at least similar in terms
Speaker 2: of cooling a golf course is. But the golf course
Speaker 2: exports more nitrogen and phosphorus and doesn't provide quite as
Speaker 2: good of pollinator habitat because that was the proxy that
Speaker 2: the researchers used for biodiversity in their study. And so
Speaker 2: at face value, you might look at that and say, well,
Speaker 2: you know, then the golf course does not have as
Speaker 2: much value as the park. But if you look a
Speaker 2: little bit deeper, you know there's a couple of reasons
Speaker 2: why those results happen, and one is management. I mean,
Speaker 2: parks are not managed to the level that golf courses are.
Speaker 2: Less fertilizer is applied in a year, and so that's
Speaker 2: essentially why you get a little less runoff or export
Speaker 2: of nutrients throughout a year. But all of the research
Speaker 2: that supports this natural capital modeling effort shows for the
Speaker 2: most part that nutrients, when applied with proper best management
Speaker 2: practices on golf courses are really retained to the golf course.
Speaker 2: It's not very common when applied properly, that a nutrient
Speaker 2: or even a pesticide would leave the golf course and
Speaker 2: contaminate a water So even though we see that from
Speaker 2: the study, we know from the years of research that
Speaker 2: that's really not a very large risk. And again we
Speaker 2: can explain it with differences in management and why the
Speaker 2: why the model spit that out right. The other thing
Speaker 2: to consider is, you know, managing managing that park isn't
Speaker 2: necessarily free either, right, and so so if if this
Speaker 2: is a municipal golf course, right, we should look at
Speaker 2: the golf course and kind of kind of flip the
Speaker 2: script a little bit and think, well, you know, we're
Speaker 2: going to invest in a green space, right. People don't
Speaker 2: expect parks to make money hand over fist, Right, that's
Speaker 2: just an investment in the community. And at the municipal
Speaker 2: golf level, if we looked at a golf course the
Speaker 2: same way, you know, we're we're investing in that green
Speaker 2: space for the community and if and if the city
Speaker 2: makes a little money off the golf course, all the better. Well.
Speaker 1: Well, the last point you make is one that's going
Speaker 1: to be very persuasive to the non golfing public or
Speaker 1: or has potential to be persuasive to that public, because
Speaker 1: you know, when when cities talk about investing in golf courses,
Speaker 1: the assumption that a lot of people have and quite
Speaker 1: reasonably so I can imagine coming to this conclusion myself
Speaker 1: if I weren't a golfer, that if you're spending money
Speaker 1: on the golf course, you're not spending money on me.
Speaker 1: You're not, You're spending money on the golfers. And people
Speaker 1: have certain ideas is about who golfers are that aren't
Speaker 1: always accurate. But that's another subject. But if you say
Speaker 1: that we are going to invest in this golf course
Speaker 1: to naturalize certain areas or to do things to make
Speaker 1: it more of a benefit to the environment, then I
Speaker 1: think people can see that those benefits will come to them.
Speaker 2: That's a great point. I mean, there are like and
Speaker 2: you meant you brought up a very good point to
Speaker 2: naturalized areas on these golf courses provide a very wide
Speaker 2: reaching benefit to humanity. And that's some messaging that potentially,
Speaker 2: I think could help in that situation right now.
Speaker 1: So this is an exciting area of study to me.
Speaker 1: You know, arming urban planners with some specific ideas and
Speaker 1: real research about the environmental impact of golf courses in cities.
Speaker 1: Where do you think this research goes next? You know,
Speaker 1: the project seems to be very much in its early stages.
Speaker 1: Its initial findings are quite impressive, but focused on the
Speaker 1: Twin Cities area. You mentioned that it's going to expand
Speaker 1: out in addition to going out to these different areas.
Speaker 1: You know, where else do you think this project is
Speaker 1: going to go in the future and what could it discover?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So, so right now they are the same work
Speaker 2: that happened in the Twin Cities is occurring in See
Speaker 2: I'll try to work my way from east to west
Speaker 2: coast and not forget any but it's happening in Philadelphia
Speaker 2: and then in Atlanta, Georgia, Detroit, Dallas, Texas, Phoenix, Arizona,
Speaker 2: and San Francisco, California. So the idea is that those
Speaker 2: are ecoregionally specific and that they could because of their
Speaker 2: selected strategically, because you could potentially extrapolate the results from
Speaker 2: each of those locations to a little broader region and
Speaker 2: start to paint a bigger picture, a more comprehensive picture
Speaker 2: for the United States. So that's kind of the current
Speaker 2: step that we're working on. And they're also working on
Speaker 2: a a few more models that they're incorporating in this
Speaker 2: suite of services that they're quantifying. One is a storm
Speaker 2: water attention. That's another potential benefit for golf courses, as
Speaker 2: well as carbon sequestration, you know, just by the virtue
Speaker 2: of growing and sucking carbon dioxide out of the air
Speaker 2: grasses sequestor that in the soil, and so so that's
Speaker 2: another benefit. And then they're even looking at some things
Speaker 2: around around what golf courses provide in terms of home values,
Speaker 2: right and some of these economic drivers. And so they're
Speaker 2: they're kind of organizing you know, these other cities and
Speaker 2: other modeling initiatives, and and then they're also you know,
Speaker 2: looking for other opportunities to to continue the work where
Speaker 2: other cities might be interested in having the analysis done
Speaker 2: specific to their city. And so there are those types
Speaker 2: of opportunities as well. Also talking with the researchers, you know,
Speaker 2: I know they're they're interested in in some of these
Speaker 2: kind of mixed mixed use screen space scenario analyses like it.
Speaker 2: You know, at this point it's been if it's not
Speaker 2: a golf course you know, what would it be it's
Speaker 2: been if not golf and what But I think that
Speaker 2: you know, I think we all recognize that there's potential
Speaker 2: to to shift our thinking there a little bit and
Speaker 2: start to look at you know, more of a spectrum,
Speaker 2: Like there's obviously different ways that a golf course can exist,
Speaker 2: and we're seeing that kind of take hold in the US,
Speaker 2: and it's probably already taken hold outside of the US,
Speaker 2: and you know, short courses, and then what can you
Speaker 2: do with the rest of that space. Could some of
Speaker 2: that space be a park and some as a golf course?
Speaker 2: So could the periphery be hiking trails, but then the
Speaker 2: core is still a golf course. And could you maintain
Speaker 2: all the ecosystem service benefits by doing that? And so
Speaker 2: those are some of the some of the interesting frontiers
Speaker 2: for the research.
Speaker 1: I think I wanted to pick up on a on
Speaker 1: a really specific point that was in there. Storm water retention.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure of the proper terminology here. I've I've
Speaker 1: often used the term stormwater runoff. But something that I've
Speaker 1: seen at city golf courses or that I know from
Speaker 1: you know, talking to people about the history of these places,
Speaker 1: is that if you see like a golf course in
Speaker 1: the middle of a city that has some waterways in it,
Speaker 1: waterways that used to have like not a lot of
Speaker 1: water when there was as much development around the golf course,
Speaker 1: and now they do have a lot of water because
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, there are all these people and
Speaker 1: all this development around it. And where is the where
Speaker 1: is the water going to go? Not just storm water,
Speaker 1: I suppose, but water generated by the households and you
Speaker 1: know whatever else that that you know is running into
Speaker 1: the golf course and filling up these channels a little
Speaker 1: bit more. Is that something that you've kind of seen,
Speaker 1: Is that something that people are looking into as a
Speaker 1: potential benefit, you know, essentially eating the sins of the
Speaker 1: development around it, Like the golf courses are there to
Speaker 1: absorb the effects of kind of, you know, burgeoning civilization
Speaker 1: around themselves.
Speaker 2: It's an interesting question, and I don't I don't know
Speaker 2: of any validation of the exact question you're asking, like, like,
Speaker 2: are these waterways do they have higher higher peak flows
Speaker 2: now because of you know, a more urbanized world around
Speaker 2: the golf course. I don't know of anything specific to
Speaker 2: that I could see where it would be the case though,
Speaker 2: I mean you could see where what especially if it's
Speaker 2: designed where the storm water from a community spills into
Speaker 2: the golf course, which then goes into their surface retention ponds.
Speaker 2: I mean, you could see where that could be the case.
Speaker 2: But I guess the thing I was going to point
Speaker 2: out is that with the way that they're modeling storm
Speaker 2: water attention, it's kind of like one hundred year flood events.
Speaker 2: So it's one of these big, big flood events. How
Speaker 2: much water could you retain and prevent destructive flooding to
Speaker 2: the nearby nearby structures, And so that's that's been their
Speaker 2: focus because you can imagine, just like you mentioned, if
Speaker 2: you replace a golf course with all this paced surface
Speaker 2: in buildings, not only is the water going to get
Speaker 2: deep right there, but it's going to get deep further
Speaker 2: out away from the golf course. And so that's that's
Speaker 2: the approach they're taking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, where is the water going to go? In
Speaker 1: other words, And I mean it's just one of those
Speaker 1: little ways that people would not think of normally about
Speaker 1: how a golf course might be part of the ecosystem
Speaker 1: of a city, you know. So moving on to another
Speaker 1: project that the USGA is helping to fund Monarchs in
Speaker 1: the Rough. Tell me about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is this is an interesting project, and
Speaker 2: I think the first thing i'd say is the USGA
Speaker 2: has partnered with Audubon International, who runs Monarch in the Rough,
Speaker 2: which is it's an independent nonprofit since the early nineties,
Speaker 2: and Audubon itself has a number of conservation programs, one
Speaker 2: of which is the Audubon Cooperative Sanctuary Program for golf
Speaker 2: courses and they have a set of you know, a
Speaker 2: set of recommendations and best practices that they provide to
Speaker 2: golf courses, and golf courses can actually get certified through
Speaker 2: that program. If they're meeting all of these best plans,
Speaker 2: they can receive a Cooperative Sanctuary certification, which we encourage
Speaker 2: golf courses to do. And I think it's an important,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of an environmental stewardship step that golf
Speaker 2: courses can take. And there's there's some there's somewhere around
Speaker 2: a thousand golf courses in the US that have that certification,
Speaker 2: more that are interacting with the program, but I think
Speaker 2: around a thousand are certified, and so Monarch's in the
Speaker 2: Rough is kind of an natural extension of that partnership
Speaker 2: and of that mindset. You know, the thought is just
Speaker 2: that there are oh my gosh, I mean, the total
Speaker 2: acreage of golf courses in the US is actually relatively
Speaker 2: small compared to other land uses. If you've ever seen
Speaker 2: the maps that show like in the US, how many
Speaker 2: got what what footprint golf courses take up compared to
Speaker 2: everything else. I mean, it's it's really small. But they're
Speaker 2: in these cities, right, and so it provides opportunity to
Speaker 2: provide continuous habitat and basically enhanced habitat continuity for all
Speaker 2: types of different species, especially when you consider that golf courses.
Speaker 2: You know, if it's one hundred and fifty acres on
Speaker 2: average for an eighteen hole golf course, not all of
Speaker 2: that is managed golf course. You know, there's around thirty
Speaker 2: acres of fairways, five acres of t's, five acres of greens,
Speaker 2: and so that leaves you, you know, and then maybe
Speaker 2: thirty acres are rough, but so that leaves you between
Speaker 2: twenty and fifty acres of area that is not in
Speaker 2: play essentially, and so those areas are really prime for naturalization,
Speaker 2: for planting, you know, ecoregionally appropriate plant materials and just
Speaker 2: letting them kind of kind of be. And and so
Speaker 2: that was kind of the thinking behind monarchs and the
Speaker 2: rough was let's really let's take one. Let's let's use
Speaker 2: those naturalized areas like we already encourage people to do,
Speaker 2: but let's let's provide some support for species that is
Speaker 2: in decline. And there's estimates that the monarch butterfly populations
Speaker 2: are eighty or ninety percent decline compared to what they
Speaker 2: used to be, solely because of a loss of habitat,
Speaker 2: because of an increase in managed lands in the US.
Speaker 2: That you know, they're solely relying on a set of
Speaker 2: species of plants called milkweed, and without those they don't
Speaker 2: they don't complete their life cycle. And monarchs migrate from
Speaker 2: from central Mexico up to Canada every year. It's it's
Speaker 2: a it's an annual migration, and then they go back,
Speaker 2: they overwinter in Mexico. And so without that habitat, they
Speaker 2: don't complete their migration and fewer there's fewer generations and
Speaker 2: fewer make it back. And so that that was the
Speaker 2: whole idea behind the project was let's let's provide some
Speaker 2: habitat for that migration. And so it focused on the
Speaker 2: Central US initially on that that migration pathway. But you know,
Speaker 2: other plant materials are planted besides just milkweed. There are
Speaker 2: actually you know, flowers planted as well that provide nectar
Speaker 2: for other pollinators. And so really it's you know, it's
Speaker 2: called Monarchs in the Rough because we want to we
Speaker 2: want to raise awareness to the decline of monarch butterflies
Speaker 2: and enhance their ability to survive. But really it's an
Speaker 2: initiative that is continuing to just encourage you know, golf
Speaker 2: course decision makers to give some of that land for
Speaker 2: these types of services that can that we can provide.
Speaker 1: Beyond the specific benefits to the monarch butterfly. What what
Speaker 1: other kinds of habitats could you see naturalized areas on
Speaker 1: golf courses providing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so pollinators are just one example. And the USJA
Speaker 2: in oh Man, it was probably after the Cooperative Sanctuary
Speaker 2: program started. There was a series of kind of follow
Speaker 2: up projects with with Autobahn International and some other collaborators
Speaker 2: to do exactly that, to quantify different species on golf courses.
Speaker 2: I mean it was called Wildlife Links and there were
Speaker 2: you know a number of different species there's a lot
Speaker 2: of focus on birds, and then there's we've had also
Speaker 2: focus on bats, right, and we actually have a current
Speaker 2: project where we're looking at and increasing using something called
Speaker 2: bat boxes, which is exactly what it sounds like. It's
Speaker 2: a birdhouse essentially, it's a it's a bathouse on a
Speaker 2: bat cave, mind you, but.
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound as appealing perhaps, But bats are actually great.
Speaker 1: If you actually look into bats, they're they're fantastic, even
Speaker 1: though they might creep people out a little bit.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, what I always think is funny as
Speaker 2: people don't realize how many bats they probably see flying
Speaker 2: around in their communities at night. When they think they're
Speaker 2: seeing birds flying around, it's likely in some locations that
Speaker 2: those are actually bats and they just don't even realize it.
Speaker 2: But there's been a very serious investment, you know, about
Speaker 2: ten million dollars over the years and all this environmental
Speaker 2: research and trying to understand exactly what's on a golf course.
Speaker 2: And I guess I can't list all the species that
Speaker 2: have been investigated to you, but the focus is what
Speaker 2: the natural fauna is for that location, you know, and
Speaker 2: especially if anything's at risk, can we find it on
Speaker 2: the golf course and how much is the golf course
Speaker 2: supporting that species?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and these kinds of initiatives. I mean, when it
Speaker 1: comes to the monarch butterfly, it's one species. It's important
Speaker 1: to do something for the monarch butterfly. But it is
Speaker 1: a particularly memorable one because they're so beautiful and so
Speaker 1: showing that. You know, golf courses don't have to be
Speaker 1: habitat disruptors, right that In fact, that the idea that
Speaker 1: it's the golf course versus a particular kind of frog
Speaker 1: or the golf course versus a particular kind of snake
Speaker 1: is really overly simplistic. Golf courses can provide habitats for
Speaker 1: animals that are struggling to find a home elsewhere. That
Speaker 1: seems like a really like important message to get out there,
Speaker 1: because so much of what people here is kind of
Speaker 1: the opposite.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's well said. You know, it's kind
Speaker 2: of the stance of instead of instead of starting it
Speaker 2: at golf courses are bad and this is why, and
Speaker 2: we need to protect this species. It's more the stance of,
Speaker 2: you know, golf courses are in this location and we
Speaker 2: have we have this undisrupted land. What what can we
Speaker 2: support with that land?
Speaker 1: All right, So I'd like to run some common environmental
Speaker 1: criticisms of golf courses by you. And I'm not necessarily
Speaker 1: asking you to disagree with these or to defend golf
Speaker 1: or or anything like that. I'm just curious how to
Speaker 1: hit you and how you might start a conversation based
Speaker 1: off of the point that they're making. You know, sometimes
Speaker 1: the points are not very good. Sometimes they're actually quite valid,
Speaker 1: I think. So one one criticism of golf courses is
Speaker 1: that they use too much water. How would you respond
Speaker 1: to that criticism? And you know, where would you go
Speaker 1: with that conversation?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So golf courses do do need water, I mean,
Speaker 2: that is that is one of our main challenges, I think,
Speaker 2: is how to continue to get better at conserving water
Speaker 2: on golf courses, especially when you have an increasing population,
Speaker 2: I mean, and the need to produce food. The strain
Speaker 2: erm on our potable water supply is it's not going
Speaker 2: to lessen. This is going to be a continuing challenge
Speaker 2: and so that has been a very large focus of
Speaker 2: the research program over the years, and we have it.
Speaker 2: It's it's we pulled it out as one of our
Speaker 2: strategic initiatives from kind of sustainable golf management for that
Speaker 2: exact reason, because it's so important, and so that that
Speaker 2: would be that would be my starting point, is just
Speaker 2: acknowledging that that, yes, it is important, and we're also
Speaker 2: doing all we can to mitigate the effect that the
Speaker 2: golf courses have on the water supply and that you know,
Speaker 2: kind of some of the things that people may or
Speaker 2: may not realize are So there's there's a number of
Speaker 2: like current and is a research projects that that we've
Speaker 2: under taken over the years, and kind of the foundation
Speaker 2: is plant improvement and plant selection and turf grass breeders
Speaker 2: at universities have been selecting plants for their drought tolerance
Speaker 2: for years, and it's kind of this continual, gradual moving
Speaker 2: of the needle. It's not just like a big switch
Speaker 2: where all of a sudden we're saving all this water,
Speaker 2: but plant materials are slowly improving and becoming more drought tolerant.
Speaker 2: And then we like to you know, encourage that those
Speaker 2: species that are drought tolerant and actually require fewer of
Speaker 2: other resources in many cases, that those are the cultivars
Speaker 2: and plant materials that people use on their golf courses.
Speaker 2: And then there's kind of the angle of precision management,
Speaker 2: which is, you know, over the years, there's kind of
Speaker 2: been this change from field based irrigation to water budgeting
Speaker 2: where you're actually using some of the science we and
Speaker 2: others have conducted to estimate how much water your golf
Speaker 2: course is going to need on any given day, and
Speaker 2: then you apply that amount instead of instead of you know,
Speaker 2: a a frequency, right, this much irrigation or this many
Speaker 2: days per week, and so water budgeting has been a
Speaker 2: big improvement there. And then you know, we're seeing more
Speaker 2: increase in the use of soy and moisture sensors. Soil
Speaker 2: moisture is highly variable across the golf course, right, and
Speaker 2: so you really do need to monitor it in a
Speaker 2: in a very with high spatial resolution, and so that's
Speaker 2: kind of what this the soil moisture sensing approach has taken.
Speaker 2: And and if if people are on golf courses or
Speaker 2: work on golf courses, you know, superintendents and their crews
Speaker 2: know exactly what we're talking about. And if you've ever
Speaker 2: seen one of them walking around handwatering greens, they have
Speaker 2: these soy moisture sensors where they're they're basically gut checking
Speaker 2: their perception of is this is this spot dry or not?
Speaker 2: And they stick a meter in the ground and so
Speaker 2: yet this is or isn't dry, and then decide to
Speaker 2: apply or not to apply a little bit more water.
Speaker 2: So I guess I would say, you know, kind of
Speaker 2: to sum up, yeah, it's an issue, but there's a
Speaker 2: whole host of things that we're doing to try to
Speaker 2: try to make it better and use as little water
Speaker 2: as possible.
Speaker 1: Do you think the introduction of native grasses, that a
Speaker 1: smart tree management program, that those are that those are
Speaker 1: important factors as well in this topic.
Speaker 2: Thanks for bringing that up. I anything naturalized landscapes right
Speaker 2: where you can reduce the amount of highly maintained acreage
Speaker 2: on a golf course is going to save water, right
Speaker 2: And so that that's actually something we've seen over the years,
Speaker 2: is that that is a strategy that has been very
Speaker 2: highly adopted by golf courses to kind of shrink their footprint,
Speaker 2: you know, where they where they know golfers go, they
Speaker 2: can manage that area, maybe even down to landing areas
Speaker 2: during a specific drought. We see that a lot in
Speaker 2: the West. But then to increase those naturalized lands just
Speaker 2: to further reduce the strain on the water supply. And
Speaker 2: and you know something else that I didn't mention is
Speaker 2: we've long encouraged golf courses to try to get a
Speaker 2: hold of recycled water because you know, this is this
Speaker 2: is water coming from is basically waste water, and it's
Speaker 2: been retreated and it's unsuitable for human consumption, right, and
Speaker 2: so it's a it's a good use to use it
Speaker 2: on a golf course. And so that's another kind of
Speaker 2: breeding and management prom to enhance a grasses or a
Speaker 2: golf course's ability to tolerate that saline irrigation water because
Speaker 2: it gets it gets it gets a high level of
Speaker 2: salinity from all the treatment. So that's a you know,
Speaker 2: another big area of improvement.
Speaker 1: My understanding is that Tory Pines, so upcoming venue of
Speaker 1: the US Open, uses recycled water. Is that is that correct?
Speaker 2: You know, I can neither confirm nor deny, but I
Speaker 2: would It would not surprise me one bit. There are
Speaker 2: many golf courses on the West Coast that are using
Speaker 2: recycled water.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sort of out of out of necessity. And you know,
Speaker 1: San Diego is an incredible test case for water use
Speaker 1: on golf courses because of the profound water difficulties that
Speaker 1: that community is having in general, and obviously the golf
Speaker 1: courses are part of that, and so they would stand
Speaker 1: to benefit tremendously from from any advances in the science here.
Speaker 1: So I mentioned tree management, and maybe this is a
Speaker 1: slightly separate topic, but my understanding, and I don't know
Speaker 1: if this is the accurate understanding, so you can correct me,
Speaker 1: But I understanding is when you have a lot of
Speaker 1: trees with a lot of cultivated turf grass, that that
Speaker 1: uses a lot of water, that the trees suck up
Speaker 1: a lot of water, and that that's a bad situation.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, having trees is beneficial in many
Speaker 1: ways to the surrounding environment. We all know the benefits
Speaker 1: that trees generally bring. And then there's the question of
Speaker 1: the architecture and the design of the golf course, right
Speaker 1: and trees. You know, overgrowth of trees can be harmful
Speaker 1: to the playing characteristics of the golf course. So there
Speaker 1: are these all these questions around trees, environmental golf course
Speaker 1: design questions. How does an individual golf course go about
Speaker 1: deciding what its approach to tree management is in trying
Speaker 1: to balance all of those considerations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a that's a really complex question, and I
Speaker 2: think the place I would start is that, you know,
Speaker 2: we could compare, if the data is available, the actual
Speaker 2: water use rate of that pieces of tree versus the
Speaker 2: grass that's growing under it, and we could we could
Speaker 2: make some comparisons and assumptions and argue about which is
Speaker 2: better or which would use less water. But I think
Speaker 2: in that case it comes down to trees are are
Speaker 2: a big investment because you know, especially big trees, the
Speaker 2: specimen trees that, as you said, can can define a
Speaker 2: golf course or very importantly maybe providing habitat for some
Speaker 2: wildlife or just providing shade for somebody that they enjoy, right,
Speaker 2: And so that doesn't happen overnight, that a tree gets
Speaker 2: so long that a's large, Right, It takes years, And
Speaker 2: so I think we have to put it through that,
Speaker 2: through that lens, that that trees are a big investment
Speaker 2: versus a grass that you can more easily establish and
Speaker 2: turn over in a year if if something's not working
Speaker 2: out well, and we see this, you know, when there's
Speaker 2: water restrictions in the West, where you know, communities are
Speaker 2: not not just in the West. I mean it happens
Speaker 2: in other places in the US too, but you'll see,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of exceptions where somebody may not watering
Speaker 2: a lawn or a large turf area, but they've got
Speaker 2: a hose snaked all the way across the lawn to
Speaker 2: water this large tree because if they don't water, it'll die,
Speaker 2: and then that could be a big loss from a
Speaker 2: money value and also just from you know, the services
Speaker 2: value that for whatever reason, people are enjoying that tree.
Speaker 2: So I think that's the starting point is what is
Speaker 2: the purpose of the tree, right and what's it actually providing?
Speaker 2: And then how does it or what decisions could actually
Speaker 2: be made to change that.
Speaker 1: That is a good start starting point, what is the
Speaker 1: purpose of the tree, because then you can start to
Speaker 1: ask questions about is it a native tree, has it
Speaker 1: been there for hundreds of years? Is it in a
Speaker 1: good place on the golf course? Does it actually help
Speaker 1: the strategy of the hole or hurt the strategy of
Speaker 1: the whole. I think that this idea of trees bad
Speaker 1: versus trees good is you know, hurting the discussion of
Speaker 1: trees on golf courses. It's pretty clear that they can
Speaker 1: bring substantial benefits while carrying, you know, at the extreme end,
Speaker 1: some big risks well or some big potential harms.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a big question how safe is a tree? Right,
Speaker 2: If you're in love with a tree for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: but it's got some cracks in it in a big wind,
Speaker 2: could dislodge some large limbs or worse, blow it over
Speaker 2: into a structure of person. You know. That's that's something
Speaker 2: that obviously has to be considered, and it probably what
Speaker 2: we're we're probably doing, Garrett is is making a good
Speaker 2: argument for the fact that and and golf course managers
Speaker 2: do this right, is get a tree inventory with with
Speaker 2: with an arborist that knows all of these things and
Speaker 2: and can tell you what the health and value is
Speaker 2: of your trees and and help you, you know, develop
Speaker 2: a really good sustainable management plan for them.
Speaker 1: So, another common criticism of golf courses as they interact
Speaker 1: with the environment is that golf courses pollute the groundwater
Speaker 1: and the surrounding area with their use of pesticides and fertilizers.
Speaker 1: So how does the conversation go on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this is this is something that with the
Speaker 2: big golf course construction boom in the eighties, this, this
Speaker 2: became a real concern because there were really, you know,
Speaker 2: these unfounded claims of exactly what you've just described, you know,
Speaker 2: golf courses are polluting the environment with mass use of
Speaker 2: fertilizers and pesticides, and so that was really the in
Speaker 2: some ways the reason for you know, a larger investment
Speaker 2: in the research program that we've been talking about today
Speaker 2: that I now manage. And there was even an increase
Speaker 2: to invested effort in environmental research in the nineties to
Speaker 2: start to really get at these types of questions and
Speaker 2: over all over all the years, you know, the decade
Speaker 2: or two of research again that's included in this ten
Speaker 2: million dollar figure I fed you earlier that basically what
Speaker 2: scientists that at universities have have found in different locations
Speaker 2: is that if you we've defined a set of best
Speaker 2: management practices where if you if you apply fertilizers and
Speaker 2: pesticides in the right way, at the right time of year,
Speaker 2: at the right rate, you know, when needed, waterm in
Speaker 2: a little bit afterwards, don't apply him close to water,
Speaker 2: grow vegetation up near the water, so that you're you know,
Speaker 2: preventing the likelihood that they even get to the surface. Water,
Speaker 2: and not before a big rainstorm, so you give them
Speaker 2: that chance to go through the profile or off into
Speaker 2: a surface water. If these types of best management practices
Speaker 2: are followed. All of this research has pretty clearly shown
Speaker 2: that it's unlikely, it's a pretty low risk that fertilizers
Speaker 2: and pesticides are going to move from a golf course
Speaker 2: into other water features in the watershed. And if they do,
Speaker 2: they're typically found at levels that are, you know, below
Speaker 2: what the EPA would consider acceptable. Kind of the maybe
Speaker 2: the exception is so phosphorus has been I mean, so
Speaker 2: nutrients are concerned because they can utrify waters, right, they
Speaker 2: can decrease the quality of waters, and it's a real concern.
Speaker 2: The phosphorus is the one that has been found to
Speaker 2: be more problematic in the turf research. But it's also
Speaker 2: a nutrient that we don't need to apply a lot of.
Speaker 2: There's there tends to be enough in most soils, and
Speaker 2: so that's what another good recommendation is to you know,
Speaker 2: only apply that type that that nutrient and anything with
Speaker 2: phosphorus in it. If your soil test indicates that you're
Speaker 2: low and very deficient and phosphorus, and then you would
Speaker 2: just put out a little bit again at the right
Speaker 2: time of year to kind of get you where you
Speaker 2: need to be. And so I think that's something that
Speaker 2: people probably don't realize is how much effort there has
Speaker 2: been to try to quantify these types of concerns but
Speaker 2: also to just really improve the thought that goes into
Speaker 2: two managing turf, to making sure that we as much
Speaker 2: as we can, you know, mitigate the risk of these
Speaker 2: non point source pollution events. Right.
Speaker 1: So I suppose the response to the criticism would be one,
Speaker 1: the initial sort of panic about these problems might have
Speaker 1: been overblown. And two, there have been advances in the
Speaker 1: science that have you know, enabled golf course managers to
Speaker 1: be responsible about their application of chemicals.
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, that's right. And again that's another practice
Speaker 2: that some of our recent surveys that we think are
Speaker 2: very widely adopted. You know, fifty around the number of
Speaker 2: golf courses that we survey use these types of best
Speaker 2: management practices to do exactly this. Right.
Speaker 1: So, this, this last criticism is not so much a
Speaker 1: criticism as you know, maybe an acknowledgment of an oncoming
Speaker 1: existential crisis for golf as well as humanity, but climate
Speaker 1: change obviously is going to have a big impact on
Speaker 1: golf course maintenance. It might get harder for many golf
Speaker 1: courses in many parts of the US, specifically to maintain
Speaker 1: their current conditions. So what do you see as the
Speaker 1: industry's responses to climate change? What are some of the
Speaker 1: kind of problems and potential solutions that are being worked
Speaker 1: through right now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean we can we can look at
Speaker 2: this issue. We talk about it for hours, and we
Speaker 2: could we could look through it from a lot through
Speaker 2: a lot of different lenses. And I think probably the
Speaker 2: important kind of high level notions to point out or
Speaker 2: that you know, golf courses are in golf course managers
Speaker 2: in this research community are paying attention to this from
Speaker 2: from a resource use standpoint. Right, we almost have to
Speaker 2: we almost have to deconstruct climate change a little bit
Speaker 2: and think on a on a practical level, you know,
Speaker 2: what are these what are these changes going to mean
Speaker 2: for for a golf course superintendent? And and really when
Speaker 2: you when you when you look at like the extreme
Speaker 2: weather events, right, we can we can look at things
Speaker 2: like like storm water attention and say, okay, that's something
Speaker 2: that that a golf course could really help us with.
Speaker 2: But we also can look at, well, it's getting warmer,
Speaker 2: it's going to be drier at certain times, and so
Speaker 2: it's going to be really important to continue to understand
Speaker 2: and improve the way that we manage golf courses and
Speaker 2: and and use less water and set them up so
Speaker 2: that they're very persistent, and that it just it just
Speaker 2: takes less that we can manage more efficiently in any
Speaker 2: way that we can, and and and so I think
Speaker 2: I think that's one angle. The other angle is the
Speaker 2: very you know, real opportunity of using renewable energies and
Speaker 2: paying paying attention to how much energy is being used
Speaker 2: on a golf course. And there is an environmental profile
Speaker 2: series done over comparing it basically a decade timeframe for
Speaker 2: for a number of different resources, but one was energy use,
Speaker 2: and we did see some declines and energy use over
Speaker 2: this ten year period from people using renewable energies and
Speaker 2: also changing, you know, the way that they manage energy
Speaker 2: and developing just kind of like an energy management plan
Speaker 2: and being more thoughtful about the way that they that
Speaker 2: they use energy. And then the last kind of angle
Speaker 2: would be, I guess more ecosystem service type considerations I
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier that golf courses sequester carbon dioxide, right, which
Speaker 2: is if you if you follow you know, the climate
Speaker 2: change consideration or discussions, you know a lot of the
Speaker 2: concern are our emissions and increasing concentrations of carbon dioxide
Speaker 2: and other greenhouse gases in the environment, and and so
Speaker 2: plants plants naturally help with that, right where they they
Speaker 2: sequester that carbon dioxide and especially grasses in the soil,
Speaker 2: and so and so that's important. But then we can
Speaker 2: also reduce other emissions by by again I mentioned using
Speaker 2: renewable energies, maybe using maybe we can get to a
Speaker 2: point where we have electric fleets of mowers and things
Speaker 2: like that on golf courses where we're using you know,
Speaker 2: fewer fossil fuels, and also applying you know, just being
Speaker 2: really efficient with fertilizers and pesticides also has indirect consequences
Speaker 2: for somebody who's very climate conscious, because you know, it
Speaker 2: takes energy to produce those fertilizers, it takes energy to
Speaker 2: produce those pesticides, and so the less you use, the
Speaker 2: more efficient you are with them, the lesser need and
Speaker 2: the lesser produced. And so it's the life cycle analysis
Speaker 2: that's really complex and hard to completely explain, but it's
Speaker 2: important to consider and there's also specific management strategies and
Speaker 2: considerations where so nitrous oxide is another you know, really
Speaker 2: harmful greenhouse gas, and it can volatilize from from nitrogenous
Speaker 2: version fertilizers that are applied, and so selecting applying a
Speaker 2: small rate, making sure it's watered in, using slow release
Speaker 2: sources that aren't prone to that type of loss. You know,
Speaker 2: all of these are things that can be done to
Speaker 2: you know, reduce the emissions from from a golf course
Speaker 2: and reduce the overall footprint. And you know, I guess
Speaker 2: one last thing is we know that you know, pumping
Speaker 2: irrigation water actually takes a lot of electricity and some
Speaker 2: research is showing that that's a big part of the
Speaker 2: the energy use on a golf course. And so just
Speaker 2: you know, goes to show you I guess another another
Speaker 2: benefit of of drought tolerance and using less water is
Speaker 2: that you know, will also use less energy in the end.
Speaker 1: Ye interesting. You know, something that I'm hearing in your
Speaker 1: answer is is not just here here's how golf courses
Speaker 1: might react to the changing climate, but here's how they
Speaker 1: might help. How golf courses might be part of the
Speaker 1: overall social response to these changing conditions.
Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's really just you know,
Speaker 2: to underline the proactive approach too, because I like, you know,
Speaker 2: you said, there's this reaction to climate change, and there's
Speaker 2: and I mean, people are really concerned about this, but
Speaker 2: you know, this is something that we've been thinking about
Speaker 2: for many years. We just haven't called it climate change.
Speaker 2: We've called it, you know, sustainable management and being environmentally responsible.
Speaker 2: And so I think all of that work definitely funnels
Speaker 2: and will continue to help in this arena.
Speaker 1: So the last thing I wanted to get into is,
Speaker 1: you know, we've been talking about some of the potential
Speaker 1: benefits that golf courses can bring to their communities, into
Speaker 1: their local ecosystems, as well as some of the things
Speaker 1: that golf course managers themselves might be able to do better,
Speaker 1: you know, increased understandings based on the science that have
Speaker 1: helped us take care of golf courses in a more
Speaker 1: sustainable way. I wanted to touch though, on the role
Speaker 1: of the golfer here and golfers' attitudes toward their playing
Speaker 1: surfaces and toward their golf courses in general. What kinds
Speaker 1: of shifts in attitudes. Do you think would be helpful
Speaker 1: for golfers toward their golf courses to allow golf course
Speaker 1: maintenance people, golf course managers to present golf courses in
Speaker 1: as environmentally responsible a way as possible, right, because a
Speaker 1: lot of what superintendents do is responding to golfer desires,
Speaker 1: and sometimes those golfer desires force superintendents to do things
Speaker 1: that they don't want to do necessarily. Sure, and so
Speaker 1: what can golfers do to kind of adjust their perception
Speaker 1: of golf courses to help with these issues that we've
Speaker 1: been talking about.
Speaker 2: It's a good question, and again another really complex one,
Speaker 2: but I'll give it my best shot here. I think
Speaker 2: that I think that having a little higher pain threshold
Speaker 2: for imperfect conditions, you know, would help. I mean, can
Speaker 2: you can see areas where tolerating a few more weeds,
Speaker 2: or tolerating drought droughty conditions and just letting the golf
Speaker 2: course be what it's what the environment is providing at
Speaker 2: that time, especially in areas like you know, maybe we
Speaker 2: would continue to manage a putting green at a high level,
Speaker 2: but maybe other areas would would be let go a
Speaker 2: little bit and so I think I think that type
Speaker 2: of acknowledgment and consideration is helpful and and it follows
Speaker 2: through to naturalized areas as well. You know, we hear
Speaker 2: a lot that some of the some of the challenges
Speaker 2: with establishing naturalized areas is they it's not an overnight establishment.
Speaker 2: It takes a couple of years to get one of
Speaker 2: these how it's supposed to look, and it takes buy
Speaker 2: in from from clientele and and so you have to
Speaker 2: you have to be patient, and so so I think
Speaker 2: I think just raising awareness about that would be helpful.
Speaker 2: And and by and large, when I, you know, I've
Speaker 2: established some of these way stations on golf courses and
Speaker 2: or this habitat right, and and when you're out there
Speaker 2: doing it, people always come over and ask you what
Speaker 2: you're doing, and and once you explain it, they think
Speaker 2: it's cool and they're interested and very supportive. And so
Speaker 2: I think, you know, to flip it a little bit,
Speaker 2: I think I think we also as as a golf
Speaker 2: management community, that's really what we need to do is
Speaker 2: try to help raise awareness about these exact ques, this
Speaker 2: exact question that you're asking and saying, you know, explaining
Speaker 2: what we want and what we would prefer from our perspective,
Speaker 2: to to tolerate less than perfect conditions if it's really dry,
Speaker 2: or to tolerate, you know, give us a chance while
Speaker 2: this naturalized area is establishing. I think, I think things
Speaker 2: like that are are really helpful and and when we
Speaker 2: could go all day on that to some extent where
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes something like a fungicide is difficult to
Speaker 2: schedule because you don't want to risk any any damage
Speaker 2: at all to a golf course. But we've seen from
Speaker 2: research that some of these application strategies where you withhold
Speaker 2: an application until you see the first signs of a
Speaker 2: disease and then you apply it. They're called threshold based strategies.
Speaker 2: And if you use those one you're you're in most cases,
Speaker 2: your your quality is fine. You know, you don't completely
Speaker 2: lose a putting green or anything, but you use less
Speaker 2: fungicide in a year, and and then that has all
Speaker 2: the associated benefits that we've talked about. And so I
Speaker 2: think just being aware and acknowledging that that you know,
Speaker 2: if there are if there are days where something you know,
Speaker 2: something is caught up to us, to the golf course managers,
Speaker 2: it's it's not for lack of effort. It's and it's
Speaker 2: probably that they're they're just just a razor thin line
Speaker 2: to try to to try to walk to be very sustainable.
Speaker 2: And so I think maybe patience in a word, would
Speaker 2: be what would be most helpful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, patience, And I mean it just seems like
Speaker 1: the the most sustainable version of a golf course. Now
Speaker 1: this changes from location to location, obviously, like it's a
Speaker 1: good point, but but the the most environmentally tied in
Speaker 1: golf course will often look really different from what people
Speaker 1: tend to think of as a golf course.
Speaker 2: I think that's it, right, Garrett. I mean, you have
Speaker 2: to be aware of what your background landscape is. And
Speaker 2: I even said this earlier that to be on par
Speaker 2: with the background landscape is all is all a golf
Speaker 2: that's the benchmark for a golf course in my view.
Speaker 2: And so if it's if it's desert, then then that's desert,
Speaker 2: and the is the naturalized area, and then you you're
Speaker 2: just as efficient as you can be in between those areas.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thank you so much for coming on
Speaker 1: to podcast Cole and dealing with my incredibly intricate questions.
Speaker 1: I find this to be a fascinating subject. I think
Speaker 1: that you're doing and helping do great work. So thanks
Speaker 1: so much for talking to me about it.
Speaker 2: Oh thanks for having me on, Garrett. I hope I
Speaker 2: was informative at least a little.
Speaker 1: Cole Thompson is the assistant director of Green Section Research
Speaker 1: at the USGA, and if you'd like to go deeper
Speaker 1: on what we talked about, I'd recommend checking out the
Speaker 1: USGA Green Section Record, which has a lot of interesting stuff.
Speaker 1: On a completely different note, two Friday events have recently
Speaker 1: opened for registration. We have the Big Muddy at Davenport
Speaker 1: Country Club and The Jagger at Blue Mound Golfing country Club,
Speaker 1: two apps lutely first rate courses there. To find out
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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.