1 00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,104 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go 2 00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on 3 00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:20,864 Speaker 1: the link to our channel. In our show notes, I'm 4 00:00:20,904 --> 00:00:22,064 Speaker 1: John Cipher. 5 00:00:21,664 --> 00:00:22,784 Speaker 2: And I'm Jerry O'Shea. 6 00:00:23,264 --> 00:00:26,544 Speaker 3: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers 7 00:00:26,624 --> 00:00:29,544 Speaker 3: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around 8 00:00:29,544 --> 00:00:30,784 Speaker 3: the world, and part. 9 00:00:30,584 --> 00:00:34,504 Speaker 4: Of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 10 00:00:34,784 --> 00:00:37,504 Speaker 3: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the 11 00:00:37,504 --> 00:00:40,424 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about as well as some of 12 00:00:40,464 --> 00:00:41,224 Speaker 3: you may not have heard. 13 00:00:41,304 --> 00:00:43,584 Speaker 4: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 14 00:00:43,664 --> 00:00:50,824 Speaker 3: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. So will Summer 15 00:00:50,864 --> 00:00:53,264 Speaker 3: as a returning guest, and one of our favorites, Will 16 00:00:53,304 --> 00:00:55,384 Speaker 3: as you know as a senior reporter at The Bulwark 17 00:00:55,544 --> 00:00:57,744 Speaker 3: who spent much of the last year on the lunatic beat. 18 00:00:58,544 --> 00:01:01,863 Speaker 3: As the newsletter False Flag discusses the online communities where 19 00:01:01,864 --> 00:01:04,744 Speaker 3: all these fringe ideas work their way into the mainstream 20 00:01:05,064 --> 00:01:07,984 Speaker 3: of real world politics. So as such there's no shortage 21 00:01:07,984 --> 00:01:11,423 Speaker 3: of material to discuss. Theories are with us everywhere and 22 00:01:11,464 --> 00:01:12,184 Speaker 3: so welcome. 23 00:01:12,184 --> 00:01:14,224 Speaker 2: Well, good to have you, hey, thanks for having me back. 24 00:01:14,423 --> 00:01:16,304 Speaker 3: First question, let me just let's talk about the biggest 25 00:01:16,344 --> 00:01:19,423 Speaker 3: conspiracy theory that might lead to a devastating outcome. You 26 00:01:19,464 --> 00:01:23,344 Speaker 3: recently wrote about President Trump speaking on Dan Bongino's podcast, 27 00:01:23,503 --> 00:01:27,063 Speaker 3: and Trump commented the Republicans should take over national elections, 28 00:01:27,063 --> 00:01:29,904 Speaker 3: which of course is based on the ultimate conspiracy theory 29 00:01:30,423 --> 00:01:33,023 Speaker 3: that any election he doesn't win was stolen the twenty 30 00:01:33,063 --> 00:01:34,264 Speaker 3: twenty election, for example. 31 00:01:34,624 --> 00:01:36,664 Speaker 2: You know, I think we're headed into this really kind 32 00:01:36,703 --> 00:01:38,864 Speaker 2: of alarming area. I mean, on one hand, I think 33 00:01:39,384 --> 00:01:42,504 Speaker 2: for people who don't like Trump, I think in some 34 00:01:42,544 --> 00:01:45,303 Speaker 2: ways things are looking good. Trump is unpopular, it looks 35 00:01:45,344 --> 00:01:47,264 Speaker 2: like he probably won't be able to turn that around 36 00:01:47,584 --> 00:01:49,584 Speaker 2: ahead of the midterms. And so then that's why I 37 00:01:49,624 --> 00:01:52,704 Speaker 2: think the administration seems to be focusing in various ways 38 00:01:52,704 --> 00:01:55,984 Speaker 2: on clamping down on the midterms and somehow exercising some control. 39 00:01:56,184 --> 00:01:58,904 Speaker 2: We're seeing Trump talk about, I think, seizing control of 40 00:01:58,984 --> 00:02:02,224 Speaker 2: elections or federalizing them. In he said fifteen states, I 41 00:02:02,264 --> 00:02:03,984 Speaker 2: think we can assume those would be blue states or 42 00:02:03,984 --> 00:02:06,464 Speaker 2: battleground states. I don't think he'd be going after the 43 00:02:06,584 --> 00:02:09,424 Speaker 2: Utah elections or anything like that. I think also there's 44 00:02:09,624 --> 00:02:12,784 Speaker 2: this sense that they want to relitigate twenty twenty. And 45 00:02:12,864 --> 00:02:14,424 Speaker 2: on one hand, you could say, well, this is just 46 00:02:14,424 --> 00:02:16,543 Speaker 2: because Trump is he wants to save face, he wants 47 00:02:16,584 --> 00:02:18,704 Speaker 2: to prove that he wanted after all. But I think 48 00:02:18,744 --> 00:02:20,224 Speaker 2: it's this kind of more ominous thing, you know. The 49 00:02:20,264 --> 00:02:23,104 Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal has reported that Tulci Gabbard is working 50 00:02:23,144 --> 00:02:24,864 Speaker 2: on a report that I think would be used to 51 00:02:24,944 --> 00:02:28,784 Speaker 2: justify some kind of executive action to control the midterm elections. 52 00:02:28,824 --> 00:02:31,224 Speaker 2: And obviously this is where your expertise comes in, guys, 53 00:02:31,424 --> 00:02:34,424 Speaker 2: because it's so strange as well to see the idea 54 00:02:34,504 --> 00:02:37,384 Speaker 2: that the Director of National Intelligence somehow involved at like 55 00:02:37,424 --> 00:02:39,584 Speaker 2: the county level of a six year old election. 56 00:02:39,864 --> 00:02:41,704 Speaker 4: I have to say, I'm not sure how much our 57 00:02:41,744 --> 00:02:45,504 Speaker 4: expertise holds, because our expertise is the way things used 58 00:02:45,544 --> 00:02:48,184 Speaker 4: to be. Although for Tulci gabberd, the D and I 59 00:02:48,264 --> 00:02:50,704 Speaker 4: getting involved in this, it was good in this. I 60 00:02:50,744 --> 00:02:53,024 Speaker 4: always wondered what the D and I did to begin with, 61 00:02:53,104 --> 00:02:53,584 Speaker 4: and now. 62 00:02:53,704 --> 00:02:55,424 Speaker 3: If this leads to a destruction the D and I, 63 00:02:55,464 --> 00:02:57,064 Speaker 3: it might be it might be the one good thing. 64 00:02:57,224 --> 00:02:59,504 Speaker 4: Something something been coming out of it, you know, amongst 65 00:02:59,544 --> 00:03:03,624 Speaker 4: the formers and the intelligence community CIA, FBI, guys that 66 00:03:03,664 --> 00:03:06,624 Speaker 4: we you know folks that we know. The question was, like, 67 00:03:06,704 --> 00:03:10,824 Speaker 4: this is a law enforcement thing. What is foreign intelligence 68 00:03:10,904 --> 00:03:16,544 Speaker 4: chief doing involved in this? Especially in the chain of custody. Now, 69 00:03:16,584 --> 00:03:19,464 Speaker 4: when we were in CIA, it was really important that 70 00:03:19,864 --> 00:03:22,624 Speaker 4: if we got involved in some sort of criminal manner, 71 00:03:22,944 --> 00:03:26,824 Speaker 4: you know, overseas, that we immediately backed away and handed 72 00:03:26,864 --> 00:03:29,344 Speaker 4: it over the FBI because we didn't want to end 73 00:03:29,424 --> 00:03:32,864 Speaker 4: up in court having to testify, because then sources and 74 00:03:32,904 --> 00:03:34,904 Speaker 4: methods would come under were not allowed to lie to 75 00:03:34,984 --> 00:03:38,304 Speaker 4: the courts. And it's really dangerous for folks thinking about 76 00:03:38,304 --> 00:03:43,624 Speaker 4: this to mix foreign intelligence and domestic law enforcement. That's 77 00:03:43,664 --> 00:03:47,104 Speaker 4: where real conspiracies come out of, not just conspiracy theories. 78 00:03:47,384 --> 00:03:49,344 Speaker 3: It's hard to imagine what she thinks is going to 79 00:03:49,344 --> 00:03:50,904 Speaker 3: come out of this. Good for her, it's like she's 80 00:03:51,024 --> 00:03:54,304 Speaker 3: sucking up in order to get back into Trump's good graces. 81 00:03:54,424 --> 00:03:56,024 Speaker 3: But if she's going to try to pretend that the 82 00:03:56,064 --> 00:03:58,664 Speaker 3: intelligence community was this deep state that was working against Trump, 83 00:03:58,744 --> 00:04:00,624 Speaker 3: that's got to undercut all the people who work for 84 00:04:00,704 --> 00:04:03,304 Speaker 3: US or our professionals and are shocked by this. At 85 00:04:03,304 --> 00:04:05,424 Speaker 3: some point, it's going to fall apart. She's going to 86 00:04:05,424 --> 00:04:07,224 Speaker 3: try to litigate this stuff and it's going to go 87 00:04:07,264 --> 00:04:10,064 Speaker 3: to a grand jury or the DOJ and it doesn't 88 00:04:10,064 --> 00:04:12,104 Speaker 3: make any sense. There's no it's not going to come through. 89 00:04:12,184 --> 00:04:15,144 Speaker 3: So you know, the sucking up may get her like 90 00:04:15,664 --> 00:04:17,504 Speaker 3: some meetings in the White House and the lead up, 91 00:04:17,504 --> 00:04:19,664 Speaker 3: but I can't imagine how this is beneficial for her 92 00:04:20,384 --> 00:04:22,264 Speaker 3: as the leader of the intelligence community. 93 00:04:22,704 --> 00:04:24,464 Speaker 4: Yeah, will do you think that they're going to try 94 00:04:24,464 --> 00:04:28,344 Speaker 4: to do the Italian satellite thing again, or the Chinese 95 00:04:28,464 --> 00:04:33,904 Speaker 4: bamboo fibers or the Venezuelan voting machine thing. There are 96 00:04:33,943 --> 00:04:38,464 Speaker 4: so many foreign conspiracies conspiracy theories to pick from. Which 97 00:04:38,464 --> 00:04:41,424 Speaker 4: one do you think Tulsi is dipping into to justify this. 98 00:04:42,224 --> 00:04:43,784 Speaker 2: It's a great question. I mean there are there are 99 00:04:43,823 --> 00:04:45,384 Speaker 2: so many, As you said, there are so many kind 100 00:04:45,383 --> 00:04:49,384 Speaker 2: of classic, obviously insane theories about twenty twenty. I just 101 00:04:49,424 --> 00:04:52,304 Speaker 2: pick one. The bamboo here. This was big in Arizona. 102 00:04:52,464 --> 00:04:55,184 Speaker 2: The idea. Someone claimed, well, I saw this plane right 103 00:04:55,183 --> 00:04:57,664 Speaker 2: before the election land from China and they were unloading 104 00:04:57,664 --> 00:04:59,544 Speaker 2: all these ballots and then if you look at the 105 00:04:59,584 --> 00:05:02,544 Speaker 2: ballots there they are bamboo fibers as though. You know, 106 00:05:02,584 --> 00:05:05,144 Speaker 2: it's like you could see a panda's pawprint on each one. 107 00:05:05,584 --> 00:05:09,503 Speaker 2: Very stereotypical ideas about China. This is a case where we, 108 00:05:09,623 --> 00:05:12,624 Speaker 2: as you said, we're going unchartered waters here. I think 109 00:05:12,704 --> 00:05:14,383 Speaker 2: it seems as though based on some of the reporting, 110 00:05:14,424 --> 00:05:16,464 Speaker 2: I think Reuters has done some reporting. Obviously, the Waltreet 111 00:05:16,503 --> 00:05:19,104 Speaker 2: Journal has. It seems like Telcy Gabbert has linked up 112 00:05:19,144 --> 00:05:21,264 Speaker 2: with a sort of friendly US attorney in Puerto Rico. 113 00:05:21,584 --> 00:05:24,544 Speaker 2: They've been doing some investigation into the idea that Venezuela 114 00:05:24,623 --> 00:05:27,224 Speaker 2: stole the election. This relates to people may remember the 115 00:05:27,224 --> 00:05:31,104 Speaker 2: big smartmatic and dominion voting machines lawsuits. This idea of 116 00:05:31,104 --> 00:05:33,303 Speaker 2: particularly smart mattic people are claiming, Oh, they're you know, 117 00:05:33,584 --> 00:05:37,424 Speaker 2: Nicholas Maduro, Hugo Chavez, even the long dead Hugo Javes 118 00:05:37,464 --> 00:05:40,704 Speaker 2: somehow stole the twenty twenty election. I mean, Maduro is 119 00:05:40,704 --> 00:05:44,063 Speaker 2: obviously currently in US custody. It seems fantastical, but maybe 120 00:05:44,063 --> 00:05:46,383 Speaker 2: they might have him come out and say, in exchange 121 00:05:46,383 --> 00:05:48,224 Speaker 2: for a reduction of your sentence, just say you stole 122 00:05:48,303 --> 00:05:50,544 Speaker 2: twenty twenty. And the other thing I would add here 123 00:05:50,584 --> 00:05:53,224 Speaker 2: is the witnesses involved in this stuff. The search warrant 124 00:05:53,464 --> 00:05:55,464 Speaker 2: in Fulton County just came out a few days ago, 125 00:05:55,943 --> 00:05:58,744 Speaker 2: and the witnesses are about the least credible people you 126 00:05:58,784 --> 00:06:01,383 Speaker 2: could find. One of these valid experts is a guy 127 00:06:01,464 --> 00:06:05,184 Speaker 2: that the Gateway Pundit, the right wing blog total hoax Factory. 128 00:06:05,623 --> 00:06:08,303 Speaker 2: Their lawyer said, we can't trust this guy. This guy 129 00:06:08,344 --> 00:06:11,104 Speaker 2: is too crazy for the Gateway Pundit, but apparently not 130 00:06:11,144 --> 00:06:12,863 Speaker 2: for the apparently not for the FBI. 131 00:06:13,383 --> 00:06:15,303 Speaker 3: The FBI has got to be a shame that they're 132 00:06:15,344 --> 00:06:17,743 Speaker 3: bowing to this. But so let me ask you about 133 00:06:17,743 --> 00:06:19,664 Speaker 3: your reporting. So you report on all these sort of 134 00:06:19,664 --> 00:06:21,664 Speaker 3: crazy lunatic things, and you meet a lot of them 135 00:06:21,784 --> 00:06:24,224 Speaker 3: and interview with some of them, do you have a 136 00:06:24,264 --> 00:06:27,464 Speaker 3: favorite and of them? Are there anyone that any of 137 00:06:27,503 --> 00:06:29,424 Speaker 3: them that are actually quite nice in person? 138 00:06:29,823 --> 00:06:32,023 Speaker 2: I do think some of them have, at least on 139 00:06:32,063 --> 00:06:35,463 Speaker 2: a sort of a personality basis. Are they see themselves 140 00:06:35,503 --> 00:06:38,464 Speaker 2: as being in this industry, this right wing media industry, 141 00:06:38,584 --> 00:06:41,183 Speaker 2: and that they understand I think sometimes number one, it 142 00:06:41,224 --> 00:06:43,943 Speaker 2: benefits them to sometimes have articles written about them. But also, 143 00:06:44,024 --> 00:06:46,463 Speaker 2: I think more importantly, everyone in that world has so 144 00:06:46,544 --> 00:06:49,704 Speaker 2: many enemies. Whether it's the influence of someone like James O'Keeffe, 145 00:06:49,704 --> 00:06:52,424 Speaker 2: who I think inspired people to start secretly recording one 146 00:06:52,464 --> 00:06:55,464 Speaker 2: another all the time, or just these are often people 147 00:06:55,503 --> 00:06:57,863 Speaker 2: to be frank with. And obviously you guys are familiar 148 00:06:57,863 --> 00:07:00,383 Speaker 2: with the idea of sources and agents and stuff like this, 149 00:07:00,743 --> 00:07:04,183 Speaker 2: people who I think have a tend towards treachery often 150 00:07:04,224 --> 00:07:08,143 Speaker 2: in their behavior even among one another, their ideological allies. 151 00:07:08,344 --> 00:07:10,064 Speaker 2: And so they're often calling me up and saying you 152 00:07:10,064 --> 00:07:12,064 Speaker 2: should look up this guy's court record in this state 153 00:07:12,144 --> 00:07:14,944 Speaker 2: because he has something embarrassing, or this guy was getting 154 00:07:14,944 --> 00:07:17,424 Speaker 2: a divorce and some files came out on him. And 155 00:07:17,464 --> 00:07:20,024 Speaker 2: in terms of ones I keep coming back to, I 156 00:07:20,064 --> 00:07:22,624 Speaker 2: think the rise of someone like Laura Lumer is fascinating, 157 00:07:22,664 --> 00:07:25,584 Speaker 2: this kind of right wing activist who started as a 158 00:07:25,704 --> 00:07:28,264 Speaker 2: really ardent anti Muslim person. I mean she still is, 159 00:07:28,504 --> 00:07:29,984 Speaker 2: but someone who's also come to have a lot of 160 00:07:30,024 --> 00:07:33,143 Speaker 2: influence over the administration that she can say this guy, 161 00:07:33,184 --> 00:07:35,864 Speaker 2: this kind of line staffer on the National Security Council, 162 00:07:36,264 --> 00:07:39,024 Speaker 2: he donated her or his wife even donated to Hillary 163 00:07:39,024 --> 00:07:41,304 Speaker 2: Clinton ten years ago. So we got to fire him, 164 00:07:41,344 --> 00:07:43,384 Speaker 2: and then that guy's gone. And the way that these 165 00:07:43,464 --> 00:07:46,024 Speaker 2: right wing media figures, particularly in the second Trump administration, 166 00:07:46,304 --> 00:07:49,783 Speaker 2: had been able to wreak havoc on law enforcement, national security, 167 00:07:49,824 --> 00:07:51,624 Speaker 2: and just the way government operates in general, I think 168 00:07:51,664 --> 00:07:54,864 Speaker 2: has been really interesting, even if obviously very alarming as well. 169 00:07:54,984 --> 00:07:57,864 Speaker 4: Yeah, but Tim, let's go back to a quieter Jentler, 170 00:07:58,264 --> 00:08:03,384 Speaker 4: nicer Trump first term conspiracy theorist. My favorite guy is 171 00:08:03,504 --> 00:08:06,463 Speaker 4: Mike Lindell. I miss Mike. He's not around anymore. 172 00:08:06,544 --> 00:08:09,944 Speaker 2: What happened to? Oh Jerry, You're going to be so rilled. 173 00:08:10,184 --> 00:08:13,824 Speaker 2: He's running for governor. He's running for governor of Minnesota 174 00:08:14,344 --> 00:08:16,824 Speaker 2: as a Republican. This is, of course, the my pillow guy. 175 00:08:17,224 --> 00:08:18,704 Speaker 2: I think he has a pretty good chance of getting 176 00:08:18,744 --> 00:08:21,264 Speaker 2: the nomination. There have been some straw polls where he's 177 00:08:21,304 --> 00:08:24,464 Speaker 2: coming in second or third with a healthy percentage. The 178 00:08:24,544 --> 00:08:26,544 Speaker 2: Republican Speaker of the House is also running, so she's 179 00:08:26,624 --> 00:08:28,783 Speaker 2: kind of the establishment pick. But on the other hand, 180 00:08:29,144 --> 00:08:32,384 Speaker 2: you know, these are Republican voters in Minnesota's obviously very 181 00:08:32,384 --> 00:08:35,744 Speaker 2: tumultuous politically right now. So I wouldn't rule out Mike 182 00:08:35,784 --> 00:08:39,024 Speaker 2: Lindell carrying the nomination. And I have to just since 183 00:08:39,064 --> 00:08:40,583 Speaker 2: you tapped into this. There's a couple of funny in 184 00:08:40,584 --> 00:08:44,703 Speaker 2: Mike Lindell's stories recently, Oh number one, So his campaign 185 00:08:44,744 --> 00:08:47,624 Speaker 2: for governor. I think they've raised something like three hundred 186 00:08:47,864 --> 00:08:50,304 Speaker 2: let's say maybe five hundred thousand, and they have spent 187 00:08:50,424 --> 00:08:53,703 Speaker 2: now one hundred and eighty thousand of it on buying 188 00:08:53,744 --> 00:08:56,304 Speaker 2: Mike Lindell's own books. So he's now getting a cut 189 00:08:56,304 --> 00:08:58,703 Speaker 2: of that money back, and they're saying, well, we're handing 190 00:08:58,784 --> 00:09:01,944 Speaker 2: them out, so you know it's not graft. And then 191 00:09:01,984 --> 00:09:03,904 Speaker 2: the other thing is, as you suggest, as you mentioned, 192 00:09:03,944 --> 00:09:06,824 Speaker 2: he kind of owes money in various places. He's had 193 00:09:06,904 --> 00:09:10,984 Speaker 2: all of these lawsuits for promoting election conspiracy theories against him, 194 00:09:11,264 --> 00:09:13,344 Speaker 2: and so one of them is he owes I think Smartmatic, 195 00:09:13,424 --> 00:09:16,184 Speaker 2: the election machine company, he owes them like fifty thousand 196 00:09:16,184 --> 00:09:19,144 Speaker 2: dollars for some frivolous court behavior. And he's saying, oh, 197 00:09:19,184 --> 00:09:20,664 Speaker 2: I just can't I can't find the money. I don't 198 00:09:20,664 --> 00:09:22,384 Speaker 2: know what to say. Yes, I am funding my own 199 00:09:22,384 --> 00:09:24,504 Speaker 2: news outlet, I'm buying ads all over the place, but 200 00:09:24,544 --> 00:09:26,704 Speaker 2: I can't come up with this fifty k. And then 201 00:09:27,144 --> 00:09:29,944 Speaker 2: he was flying back from Aspen, of course, the luxury 202 00:09:30,024 --> 00:09:33,184 Speaker 2: ski resort, and one of Smart Mattocks, one of Smart 203 00:09:33,184 --> 00:09:35,904 Speaker 2: Maattic's lawyers, sees him on the plane and goes, now, 204 00:09:35,904 --> 00:09:38,184 Speaker 2: wait a minute, you can go on this ski vacation 205 00:09:38,664 --> 00:09:40,584 Speaker 2: you're claiming you have you don't have a dollar to 206 00:09:40,664 --> 00:09:42,904 Speaker 2: your name, and so now this has gotten him in 207 00:09:42,944 --> 00:09:43,703 Speaker 2: more court trouble. 208 00:09:43,904 --> 00:09:45,784 Speaker 3: So will you mentioned that you know when you talk 209 00:09:45,824 --> 00:09:48,064 Speaker 3: to some of these people that they're going after there's infighting. 210 00:09:48,184 --> 00:09:50,704 Speaker 3: Does he infighting matter? Like I can imagine people are 211 00:09:50,703 --> 00:09:52,064 Speaker 3: sort of on the left are like, oh, they're fighting 212 00:09:52,064 --> 00:09:53,504 Speaker 3: each other, this is the beginning of the end. But 213 00:09:53,583 --> 00:09:55,304 Speaker 3: I don't know if that's true. I just think they've 214 00:09:55,304 --> 00:09:57,743 Speaker 3: always been in fighting, like the Russians, for example, I 215 00:09:57,784 --> 00:10:00,384 Speaker 3: worked in Russia. We worked in russianuntil they're always attacking 216 00:10:00,424 --> 00:10:02,104 Speaker 3: each other. But that doesn't mean they're not a threat. 217 00:10:03,223 --> 00:10:05,064 Speaker 2: I think that's that's a good comparison. I mean, you're 218 00:10:05,103 --> 00:10:06,664 Speaker 2: right that there is kind of this kind of constant 219 00:10:06,744 --> 00:10:09,743 Speaker 2: roiling tension these different factions. And then how much does 220 00:10:09,784 --> 00:10:13,143 Speaker 2: it matter electorally to the broader MAGA movement, to Trump's popularity. 221 00:10:13,264 --> 00:10:14,664 Speaker 2: You also have to keep in mind these are kind 222 00:10:14,664 --> 00:10:17,544 Speaker 2: of Internet personalities who I think they make money off 223 00:10:17,544 --> 00:10:19,424 Speaker 2: of conflict, and so they want to fight with each other. 224 00:10:19,504 --> 00:10:21,103 Speaker 2: They don't want everyone to be on the same team. 225 00:10:21,304 --> 00:10:23,024 Speaker 2: On the other hand, I do think there are cases 226 00:10:23,103 --> 00:10:26,304 Speaker 2: we can look at, particularly after the assassination of Charlie Kirk, 227 00:10:26,544 --> 00:10:29,263 Speaker 2: and this created kind of this vacuum and there are 228 00:10:29,304 --> 00:10:32,144 Speaker 2: these real like people are people see people like white 229 00:10:32,184 --> 00:10:34,064 Speaker 2: nationalist Nick Fuentes come out and say, you know, I'm 230 00:10:34,064 --> 00:10:35,904 Speaker 2: going to be the new Charlie Kirk, and he's fighting 231 00:10:35,904 --> 00:10:39,784 Speaker 2: with people like Ben Shapiro. We're seeing conferences derailed by 232 00:10:39,824 --> 00:10:42,064 Speaker 2: this drama where people in the audience are like, what 233 00:10:42,304 --> 00:10:43,664 Speaker 2: are we talking about? I mean, you want to talk 234 00:10:43,703 --> 00:10:45,864 Speaker 2: about criminology the way that these are kind of like 235 00:10:45,904 --> 00:10:48,583 Speaker 2: these coded misses sent out in speeches and they'll say, 236 00:10:48,824 --> 00:10:50,784 Speaker 2: you know, those of you talking on YouTube about this, 237 00:10:50,824 --> 00:10:52,664 Speaker 2: And for the average Republican voter, they're saying, what is 238 00:10:52,703 --> 00:10:54,864 Speaker 2: going on here? I think in the case of Charlie Kirk, 239 00:10:55,103 --> 00:10:57,703 Speaker 2: you have Candae Owens, who obviously is this big anti 240 00:10:57,744 --> 00:11:01,984 Speaker 2: semi conspiracy theorist now hugely popular. She is saying turning 241 00:11:01,984 --> 00:11:05,024 Speaker 2: Point USA killed him, you know, suggesting that Charlie Kirk 242 00:11:05,064 --> 00:11:07,104 Speaker 2: White killed them, and so you have this moment after 243 00:11:07,144 --> 00:11:10,024 Speaker 2: that assassination. The MAGA movement had so much political capital 244 00:11:10,144 --> 00:11:12,184 Speaker 2: and people understandingly felt very bad for them because of 245 00:11:12,184 --> 00:11:14,824 Speaker 2: this tragic event, and they wanted to capitalize on it, 246 00:11:14,624 --> 00:11:17,184 Speaker 2: and then you have someone saying, well, actually, I think 247 00:11:17,223 --> 00:11:19,144 Speaker 2: it was you killed him, And that creates a lot 248 00:11:19,184 --> 00:11:21,904 Speaker 2: of internal tension, grassroots people saying I don't want to 249 00:11:21,904 --> 00:11:24,503 Speaker 2: support Turning Point because they murdered this guy. And it's 250 00:11:24,504 --> 00:11:26,984 Speaker 2: a totally crazy idea, but it is still creating drama 251 00:11:27,024 --> 00:11:28,464 Speaker 2: that I think hurts them politically. 252 00:11:28,544 --> 00:11:30,144 Speaker 3: You just reported on her too, And there was a 253 00:11:30,184 --> 00:11:32,223 Speaker 3: thing and I think it was Today's New York Times 254 00:11:32,264 --> 00:11:36,664 Speaker 3: talking about how this nineteen sixty seven shooting of the 255 00:11:36,784 --> 00:11:40,104 Speaker 3: USS Liberty by the Israelis killed thirty four Americans. There's 256 00:11:40,144 --> 00:11:42,784 Speaker 3: become a friction inside the Republican Party candae always and 257 00:11:42,784 --> 00:11:45,104 Speaker 3: those guys are saying, you can't trust Israel. They did 258 00:11:45,144 --> 00:11:47,424 Speaker 3: it on purpose. And then there's the other group of 259 00:11:47,424 --> 00:11:49,384 Speaker 3: people who say that, oh no, that was a mistake 260 00:11:49,424 --> 00:11:51,744 Speaker 3: by the Israelis. And it's become the friction inside the 261 00:11:51,784 --> 00:11:55,503 Speaker 3: MAGA movement whether your throw Israeli or you don't trust 262 00:11:55,544 --> 00:11:56,624 Speaker 3: the Israelis, Like. 263 00:11:56,544 --> 00:11:57,703 Speaker 2: You can look at it in the case at the 264 00:11:57,784 --> 00:11:59,664 Speaker 2: USS Liberty. So this was a ship in the I 265 00:11:59,703 --> 00:12:02,383 Speaker 2: think the Six Day War that the Israelis fired upon 266 00:12:02,424 --> 00:12:04,304 Speaker 2: and they claimed, well, we thought it was an Egyptian ship. 267 00:12:04,544 --> 00:12:07,463 Speaker 2: They paid reparations. But now this is for I think 268 00:12:07,504 --> 00:12:10,464 Speaker 2: particularly these kind of gen Z Republicans after the Gaza War. 269 00:12:10,583 --> 00:12:12,744 Speaker 2: I think young people in general are much more critical 270 00:12:12,784 --> 00:12:15,424 Speaker 2: of Israel than they once were, even Republicans, and so 271 00:12:15,744 --> 00:12:18,664 Speaker 2: people who are anti Semitic are just critical of Israel. 272 00:12:18,744 --> 00:12:20,984 Speaker 2: Bring up they say, Israel isn't an ally of ours. 273 00:12:21,064 --> 00:12:24,424 Speaker 2: They killed Americans on this ship many decades ago. And 274 00:12:24,463 --> 00:12:27,024 Speaker 2: then it comes up at conferences. People will say, well, 275 00:12:27,103 --> 00:12:30,104 Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk or Ben Shapiro, what about the USS liberty? 276 00:12:30,304 --> 00:12:32,864 Speaker 2: And if you're a regular Republican operative, you're like, why 277 00:12:32,944 --> 00:12:35,304 Speaker 2: is this all getting derailed? This is more than fifty 278 00:12:35,384 --> 00:12:37,544 Speaker 2: years ago at this point, but this has become such 279 00:12:37,583 --> 00:12:40,264 Speaker 2: a rallying cry. So I think that's an interesting example 280 00:12:40,343 --> 00:12:42,904 Speaker 2: of this. In a way. I think people are preparing 281 00:12:42,944 --> 00:12:45,824 Speaker 2: themselves for this post Trump future. What's the Republican Party 282 00:12:45,904 --> 00:12:48,904 Speaker 2: going to look like? What kind of land am I 283 00:12:48,944 --> 00:12:51,184 Speaker 2: going to stake out as a right wing media personality? 284 00:12:51,304 --> 00:12:52,904 Speaker 2: And I think it's creating a lot of trouble when 285 00:12:52,944 --> 00:13:12,743 Speaker 2: you know they should be uniting for the midterm. 286 00:13:12,824 --> 00:13:17,304 Speaker 4: So will I want to ask you about Robert for 287 00:13:17,544 --> 00:13:24,024 Speaker 4: tell me this of course, is Jeffrey Epstein's Austrian passport, 288 00:13:24,103 --> 00:13:28,223 Speaker 4: the ALIAS passport that he had. And now in our 289 00:13:28,304 --> 00:13:31,664 Speaker 4: former world, John and I know that the Russians use 290 00:13:32,384 --> 00:13:36,104 Speaker 4: Austrian passports a lot when they want to hide something. 291 00:13:36,184 --> 00:13:38,944 Speaker 4: So in thinct, one of the biggest scandals now espionage 292 00:13:38,984 --> 00:13:42,224 Speaker 4: scandals in Europe now is their version of VISA turned 293 00:13:42,264 --> 00:13:44,984 Speaker 4: out to be a Russian front was called Wirecard and 294 00:13:45,064 --> 00:13:48,984 Speaker 4: this all was done through Austria with fake, fake Austrian passports. 295 00:13:49,184 --> 00:13:52,703 Speaker 4: So it's very well known that the Russians use fake 296 00:13:52,744 --> 00:13:56,343 Speaker 4: Austrian passports to use it to operate with its assets. 297 00:13:56,784 --> 00:14:00,744 Speaker 4: And we now know through the Epstein files that in 298 00:14:00,864 --> 00:14:05,904 Speaker 4: twenty eleven he applied to go to Moscow to meet 299 00:14:05,944 --> 00:14:10,664 Speaker 4: with this organization called Vimple and Vimple director at V 300 00:14:10,984 --> 00:14:13,463 Speaker 4: and I'll quick read it here. It was designed for 301 00:14:13,463 --> 00:14:19,704 Speaker 4: foreign operations including sabotage, deep cover intelligence and liquidating high 302 00:14:19,784 --> 00:14:23,544 Speaker 4: value targets. This is what director at v Veimple does. 303 00:14:24,344 --> 00:14:29,624 Speaker 4: So my question why was Epstein, why was he traveling 304 00:14:29,744 --> 00:14:33,024 Speaker 4: on a fake Austrian passport, how do he get it, 305 00:14:33,144 --> 00:14:37,024 Speaker 4: what he do with it? And why was he visiting 306 00:14:37,384 --> 00:14:42,144 Speaker 4: a Russian intelligence organization? Right in twenty eleven that is 307 00:14:42,184 --> 00:14:45,944 Speaker 4: like potentially huge and still untapped as people talk about 308 00:14:46,144 --> 00:14:49,104 Speaker 4: his victims. But there's another whole element to this that's 309 00:14:49,304 --> 00:14:53,584 Speaker 4: just coming out that has former intelligence officers really interested 310 00:14:53,704 --> 00:14:57,824 Speaker 4: and concerned that people like Tulci Gambert are not looking 311 00:14:57,864 --> 00:14:58,263 Speaker 4: into this. 312 00:14:58,504 --> 00:15:00,784 Speaker 2: I mean, it's suspicious, to say the least. It's really 313 00:15:00,824 --> 00:15:03,544 Speaker 2: interesting to know that Australia or Austria excuse me, is 314 00:15:03,584 --> 00:15:05,864 Speaker 2: seen as a closely tied to Russians in terms of 315 00:15:05,904 --> 00:15:08,984 Speaker 2: the passports and documents like that. I think it is 316 00:15:09,264 --> 00:15:11,824 Speaker 2: a I think before these files started to get released, 317 00:15:11,864 --> 00:15:13,864 Speaker 2: I think there was obviously some interest in the idea 318 00:15:13,904 --> 00:15:17,104 Speaker 2: that Epstein had foreign intelligence connections. Even then, let's say, 319 00:15:17,104 --> 00:15:19,064 Speaker 2: when all this kind of broke into the open in 320 00:15:19,184 --> 00:15:22,904 Speaker 2: last July, that idea was the maximum maximalist view, the 321 00:15:22,944 --> 00:15:24,944 Speaker 2: idea of you know, now, hold me back here. I 322 00:15:24,984 --> 00:15:26,904 Speaker 2: might sound a little crazy, but you know, have we 323 00:15:26,944 --> 00:15:29,144 Speaker 2: explored this? But now I think with all these files 324 00:15:29,184 --> 00:15:31,984 Speaker 2: coming out, whether it's connections to obviously people in the 325 00:15:32,024 --> 00:15:34,664 Speaker 2: American government, the Israeli government, or Russia. I mean, you 326 00:15:34,664 --> 00:15:38,744 Speaker 2: guys know this world, and it is this idea of 327 00:15:38,784 --> 00:15:42,384 Speaker 2: cutouts and who people who might have multiple allegiances. I 328 00:15:42,384 --> 00:15:44,744 Speaker 2: think we're seeing a lot of evidence pointing in that direction. 329 00:15:44,864 --> 00:15:48,184 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I just wanted an Epstein quote. Daudi has oil, 330 00:15:48,544 --> 00:15:51,984 Speaker 4: Moscow has girls. That's from the Epstein firm. 331 00:15:52,504 --> 00:15:54,864 Speaker 3: It does. Yeah, I used to say when I was there, 332 00:15:54,984 --> 00:15:57,904 Speaker 3: do two things? Well, they do dancing bears and prostitutes 333 00:15:57,904 --> 00:16:00,184 Speaker 3: are the only things they and oil sometimes. I guess 334 00:16:00,224 --> 00:16:02,744 Speaker 3: they get oil to the world. But they've now gotten 335 00:16:02,824 --> 00:16:05,704 Speaker 3: into the Coppermont game as well. They served each other. 336 00:16:05,784 --> 00:16:08,344 Speaker 3: Whether this was some sort of super secret spy thing, 337 00:16:08,584 --> 00:16:11,224 Speaker 3: I tend to doubt, just like saying what Donald Trump, 338 00:16:11,304 --> 00:16:14,263 Speaker 3: But they serve each other. Epstein can help them in 339 00:16:14,344 --> 00:16:16,584 Speaker 3: terms of laundering money and hiding their money, just like 340 00:16:17,104 --> 00:16:19,664 Speaker 3: his sort of fought not father in law Robert Maxwell 341 00:16:19,704 --> 00:16:22,584 Speaker 3: did years ago. And the Russians want to know what 342 00:16:22,664 --> 00:16:24,944 Speaker 3: all this sort of high flyers in the West are doing. 343 00:16:25,264 --> 00:16:27,263 Speaker 3: Came out and it was a two day story on 344 00:16:27,384 --> 00:16:29,824 Speaker 3: interest in your thoughts on this Susie Will's is this 345 00:16:29,904 --> 00:16:33,904 Speaker 3: big story and was interviewed by Vanity Fair and talk 346 00:16:34,144 --> 00:16:36,264 Speaker 3: out of school quite a bit. Has there been any 347 00:16:36,304 --> 00:16:39,143 Speaker 3: fallout that you're aware of in Maga circles that she 348 00:16:39,744 --> 00:16:41,144 Speaker 3: talked that way It's interesting. 349 00:16:41,184 --> 00:16:43,944 Speaker 2: I think Susie Wiles is someone who is seen on 350 00:16:43,944 --> 00:16:45,904 Speaker 2: one hand as the person who's making the trains run 351 00:16:45,944 --> 00:16:48,344 Speaker 2: on time, is keeping the lunatics kind of you know, 352 00:16:48,424 --> 00:16:50,824 Speaker 2: at Bay at least as much as she can. On 353 00:16:50,864 --> 00:16:53,584 Speaker 2: the other hand, I think, you know, they're mad at 354 00:16:53,624 --> 00:16:55,344 Speaker 2: her about that. These are there are people who are 355 00:16:55,424 --> 00:16:57,104 Speaker 2: someone like Laura Lumer can't get a job in the 356 00:16:57,104 --> 00:16:59,904 Speaker 2: White House perhaps because of Susie Wiles, that she's keeping 357 00:16:59,944 --> 00:17:02,664 Speaker 2: the kind of the most frothing maga people out. It's 358 00:17:02,664 --> 00:17:05,064 Speaker 2: a little unclear what exactly went into her thinking they're 359 00:17:05,144 --> 00:17:07,144 Speaker 2: doing that interview. I think a lot of people thought 360 00:17:07,184 --> 00:17:09,784 Speaker 2: after that that she would retire, that she basically said, 361 00:17:09,784 --> 00:17:11,504 Speaker 2: I might as well do this and secure my place 362 00:17:11,544 --> 00:17:13,904 Speaker 2: in the history books with this kind of great chronicler 363 00:17:13,904 --> 00:17:16,864 Speaker 2: of chiefs of staff writing this article. And instead she's 364 00:17:16,904 --> 00:17:19,344 Speaker 2: still around, and so I think perhaps there was some 365 00:17:19,424 --> 00:17:21,824 Speaker 2: internal fallout we're not aware of. I think politically it 366 00:17:21,904 --> 00:17:24,464 Speaker 2: definitely hurt her. On the other hand, she's still there, 367 00:17:24,544 --> 00:17:27,384 Speaker 2: and I think obviously in this new cycle, in this administration, 368 00:17:27,464 --> 00:17:30,224 Speaker 2: I think if you weather that initial challenge, you know, 369 00:17:30,264 --> 00:17:32,184 Speaker 2: in the case of Pete Heggseth putting the documents on 370 00:17:32,224 --> 00:17:34,144 Speaker 2: the signal chat or something like that. If you weather 371 00:17:34,184 --> 00:17:36,744 Speaker 2: that scandal, stick around for a few weeks and maybe 372 00:17:36,784 --> 00:17:39,184 Speaker 2: do some real kind of a sycophantic behavior for Trump, 373 00:17:39,344 --> 00:17:40,304 Speaker 2: and you can stay around. 374 00:17:40,424 --> 00:17:44,064 Speaker 4: Yeah. So part of intelligence is connecting dots and hopefully 375 00:17:44,064 --> 00:17:46,864 Speaker 4: coming up with the right with the right picture. And 376 00:17:46,984 --> 00:17:50,144 Speaker 4: also part of intelligence is answering very specific questions like 377 00:17:50,184 --> 00:17:53,144 Speaker 4: who's responsible if there's a terroritic who did it? Who 378 00:17:53,304 --> 00:17:56,024 Speaker 4: ordered it? Right covered action if they you know, who 379 00:17:56,144 --> 00:18:01,224 Speaker 4: ordered that? So galm Maxwell was transferred to this new 380 00:18:01,744 --> 00:18:05,544 Speaker 4: facility in Texas club fed. She has meals, sent to 381 00:18:05,624 --> 00:18:09,184 Speaker 4: re dormitory. She has late night workouts, permission to shower, 382 00:18:09,184 --> 00:18:12,464 Speaker 4: a law, she has access to puppies to pet. And 383 00:18:12,504 --> 00:18:15,424 Speaker 4: she said the food is legions better, the place is clean, 384 00:18:15,784 --> 00:18:19,624 Speaker 4: the staff is responsible and polite. The staff here is 385 00:18:19,664 --> 00:18:25,424 Speaker 4: responsive to me. This person who was responsible for a 386 00:18:25,424 --> 00:18:29,584 Speaker 4: pedophile ring and personally being involved in the rape of 387 00:18:29,624 --> 00:18:32,263 Speaker 4: young girls, who has decided to do this? I see 388 00:18:32,504 --> 00:18:35,504 Speaker 4: Todd Blanche has like danced around us and says, oh, 389 00:18:35,584 --> 00:18:38,544 Speaker 4: the Bureau of Prisons is But he says that decisions 390 00:18:38,624 --> 00:18:41,064 Speaker 4: like this will often land on my desk to the 391 00:18:41,144 --> 00:18:44,384 Speaker 4: extent they need to be who signed off on this, 392 00:18:44,464 --> 00:18:47,024 Speaker 4: and then maybe talk about some of her recent things 393 00:18:47,024 --> 00:18:51,224 Speaker 4: she said about her willingness to exonerate Trump if she's if. 394 00:18:51,104 --> 00:18:53,744 Speaker 2: She's pardon, I'm so glad you're bringing it up, because 395 00:18:53,744 --> 00:18:56,024 Speaker 2: I think that's the smoking gun that there's something weird 396 00:18:56,064 --> 00:18:58,704 Speaker 2: going on with Trump and Epstein. I mean, I hate 397 00:18:58,744 --> 00:19:00,744 Speaker 2: to speculate about what you know might be in the files, 398 00:19:00,784 --> 00:19:02,504 Speaker 2: or if there were files that were destroyed or anything 399 00:19:02,544 --> 00:19:04,824 Speaker 2: like that, but you know, on the other hand, what 400 00:19:04,904 --> 00:19:07,104 Speaker 2: other explanation could there be? I mean, doesn't you're saying 401 00:19:07,144 --> 00:19:09,384 Speaker 2: connect the dots here. It doesn't take too much work, right, 402 00:19:09,624 --> 00:19:14,384 Speaker 2: because there's two dots she needs start blaching, right, And 403 00:19:14,424 --> 00:19:16,584 Speaker 2: so she has this interview. This is when the heat 404 00:19:16,624 --> 00:19:18,864 Speaker 2: was really on Trump about Epstein. Okay, we're gonna go 405 00:19:18,904 --> 00:19:20,744 Speaker 2: to Glaine and settle it, and people were saying, well, 406 00:19:20,824 --> 00:19:22,384 Speaker 2: is that really gonna settle it? We don't think she's 407 00:19:22,424 --> 00:19:24,664 Speaker 2: like an honest actor here. Okay, we're gonna go to 408 00:19:24,664 --> 00:19:26,504 Speaker 2: Gallaane and she gives us an interview and she said 409 00:19:26,504 --> 00:19:28,664 Speaker 2: Trump is innocent. I've never seen him do anything wrong. 410 00:19:28,864 --> 00:19:30,824 Speaker 2: Then she gets transferred, as you said, to this minimum 411 00:19:30,864 --> 00:19:33,784 Speaker 2: security prison where people who have committed far less serious 412 00:19:33,784 --> 00:19:36,384 Speaker 2: crimes can't get into. And then not only that, but 413 00:19:36,464 --> 00:19:39,264 Speaker 2: she actually has better privileges than the other inmates. Where 414 00:19:39,304 --> 00:19:41,864 Speaker 2: the prison will go on lockdown, she's still walking around. 415 00:19:42,304 --> 00:19:45,784 Speaker 2: It is very suspicious, and I think it is truly 416 00:19:45,864 --> 00:19:48,144 Speaker 2: bizarre that so much of the Trump campaign was like, 417 00:19:48,144 --> 00:19:50,504 Speaker 2: we're gonna get revenge Repsceine, We're gonna find all of 418 00:19:50,544 --> 00:19:52,984 Speaker 2: his associates, and looking beyond that to qan On people, 419 00:19:52,984 --> 00:19:55,264 Speaker 2: we're gonna get all these pedophiles. And then a convicted 420 00:19:55,264 --> 00:19:58,104 Speaker 2: sex trafficker gets this cozy deal with the administration. I 421 00:19:58,104 --> 00:20:00,864 Speaker 2: think it's telling whenever someone like Pambandi or as you said, 422 00:20:00,864 --> 00:20:03,904 Speaker 2: Todd Blanche is in front of Congress, they will never 423 00:20:03,944 --> 00:20:06,544 Speaker 2: answer that question directly, how did this happen? They will 424 00:20:06,544 --> 00:20:08,624 Speaker 2: go on the attack, what about your stock trade, senator, 425 00:20:08,624 --> 00:20:11,184 Speaker 2: stuff like that. That is one they will never say. 426 00:20:11,264 --> 00:20:13,064 Speaker 2: And I think it's because there was a deal here 427 00:20:13,064 --> 00:20:15,544 Speaker 2: of some kind. And look, Trump won't rule out pardoning her. 428 00:20:15,584 --> 00:20:17,904 Speaker 2: I mean, who knows how far they're going to go 429 00:20:17,984 --> 00:20:18,664 Speaker 2: to keep her happy. 430 00:20:19,264 --> 00:20:22,584 Speaker 4: But somebody had to sign on a dotted line someplace 431 00:20:23,024 --> 00:20:24,384 Speaker 4: to move her right. 432 00:20:24,424 --> 00:20:25,984 Speaker 2: And I think that might be one that it has 433 00:20:26,024 --> 00:20:28,904 Speaker 2: to wait until Democrats get subpoena power take back one 434 00:20:28,904 --> 00:20:31,744 Speaker 2: of the houses of Congress, because I think that's one 435 00:20:31,744 --> 00:20:33,944 Speaker 2: of those kind of big mysteries that hopefully they'll look into. 436 00:20:34,344 --> 00:20:35,784 Speaker 3: So we'll to go back to a little bit of 437 00:20:35,824 --> 00:20:38,104 Speaker 3: your reporting and that sort of infighting amongst these different 438 00:20:38,144 --> 00:20:40,184 Speaker 3: MAGA people for the future. Who's going to be up 439 00:20:40,224 --> 00:20:42,744 Speaker 3: and down or who can make the most money. You 440 00:20:42,824 --> 00:20:46,664 Speaker 3: reported about Tucker Carlston. Tucker Carlson may have gone too 441 00:20:46,704 --> 00:20:50,104 Speaker 3: far over the line, especially in his relationship with Nick 442 00:20:50,104 --> 00:20:53,024 Speaker 3: Flin days and Ben Shapiro and other people have called 443 00:20:53,104 --> 00:20:56,584 Speaker 3: him mononnous. What is Tucker Carlson's place in that world now? 444 00:20:56,624 --> 00:20:58,944 Speaker 3: Is he someone who's going to run for election or 445 00:20:59,024 --> 00:21:01,384 Speaker 3: is he taken seriously on the right? 446 00:21:02,104 --> 00:21:04,824 Speaker 2: I think Tucker Carlson's interesting. I mean, obviously, before he 447 00:21:04,904 --> 00:21:06,664 Speaker 2: was fired from Fox News, he was the center of 448 00:21:06,744 --> 00:21:09,224 Speaker 2: right wing media. Now he's off, he got fired, he's 449 00:21:09,224 --> 00:21:11,104 Speaker 2: off on his own, and I think he still has 450 00:21:11,144 --> 00:21:12,824 Speaker 2: this He kind of has one foot in the tent 451 00:21:12,864 --> 00:21:15,744 Speaker 2: of what we might see as like establishment conservatism or MAGA. 452 00:21:15,944 --> 00:21:18,784 Speaker 2: He's still invited to the turning point USA conferences, and 453 00:21:18,824 --> 00:21:21,023 Speaker 2: then he has his other foot in this weird world 454 00:21:21,064 --> 00:21:23,584 Speaker 2: where he talks about how you should tan your balls 455 00:21:23,664 --> 00:21:27,104 Speaker 2: for superstitious health benefits, or he powers around with these 456 00:21:27,144 --> 00:21:29,864 Speaker 2: I think he's become very anti Israel. He has people 457 00:21:29,904 --> 00:21:32,184 Speaker 2: like Nick Fuentes on for by the way, a very 458 00:21:32,504 --> 00:21:34,704 Speaker 2: was very sort of sympathetic interview, which was sort of 459 00:21:34,984 --> 00:21:38,184 Speaker 2: this guy is being welcomed into the pantheon of pundits, 460 00:21:38,384 --> 00:21:40,144 Speaker 2: and this guy is not beyond the pale in a 461 00:21:40,144 --> 00:21:42,104 Speaker 2: way that Charlie Kirk, for example, would say, we can't 462 00:21:42,104 --> 00:21:44,104 Speaker 2: this guy margin in Charlotte Field's guys a Nazi, we 463 00:21:44,144 --> 00:21:46,464 Speaker 2: can't be inviting him to the conferences. And Tucker Carlson's 464 00:21:46,464 --> 00:21:48,504 Speaker 2: taking a different point of view on that. Tucker, though, 465 00:21:48,504 --> 00:21:50,984 Speaker 2: I mean, he has also all these foreign ties, right, 466 00:21:51,264 --> 00:21:53,384 Speaker 2: and famously a few years ago he went to Moscow 467 00:21:53,424 --> 00:21:57,344 Speaker 2: and interviewed Putin. More recently he's been really pro Qatar 468 00:21:57,584 --> 00:22:01,144 Speaker 2: in a way that I find a little suspicious. You know, 469 00:22:01,224 --> 00:22:04,144 Speaker 2: he goes to Qatar for a conference, comes back his 470 00:22:04,184 --> 00:22:07,744 Speaker 2: next show says, here's the thought experiment, what if Qatar 471 00:22:07,984 --> 00:22:09,984 Speaker 2: was our main ally in the Middle East. He talks 472 00:22:10,024 --> 00:22:12,824 Speaker 2: all how wonderful katar Is and it makes you a 473 00:22:12,864 --> 00:22:15,944 Speaker 2: little suspicious. Is there money being exchanged? He's supposedly buying 474 00:22:15,984 --> 00:22:18,144 Speaker 2: a house in Qatar. I think from your point of view, 475 00:22:18,144 --> 00:22:20,144 Speaker 2: if you were an intelligence officer saying is this person 476 00:22:20,184 --> 00:22:21,824 Speaker 2: a foreign agent? I think there are things that might 477 00:22:21,944 --> 00:22:24,344 Speaker 2: set off alarm belt. They're getting maybe a house or 478 00:22:24,464 --> 00:22:26,984 Speaker 2: buying a house there. They're very suddenly, very cozy with 479 00:22:27,024 --> 00:22:27,744 Speaker 2: a foreign country. 480 00:22:27,864 --> 00:22:27,904 Speaker 3: No. 481 00:22:28,024 --> 00:22:29,744 Speaker 4: Well, I've got to disagree with you on that. I 482 00:22:29,784 --> 00:22:33,344 Speaker 4: think you know, clearly a right wing American would say yes, 483 00:22:33,424 --> 00:22:37,664 Speaker 4: you know, Christian nationalists would say yes, a strict Islamic monarchy, 484 00:22:38,184 --> 00:22:40,384 Speaker 4: that's who we need to be with. Wow, how could 485 00:22:40,424 --> 00:22:42,704 Speaker 4: you say that there's anything other than that when our 486 00:22:42,744 --> 00:22:47,344 Speaker 4: real enemies clearly are Denmark. So in Cia we do 487 00:22:47,424 --> 00:22:49,664 Speaker 4: a lot of following the money right, And because that's 488 00:22:49,784 --> 00:22:52,104 Speaker 4: because money, you either have it or you don't, an influence, 489 00:22:52,184 --> 00:22:56,464 Speaker 4: you never quite sure. So I've had real trouble following 490 00:22:56,464 --> 00:22:59,304 Speaker 4: this at all. And back to Russia. Now Epstein has 491 00:22:59,344 --> 00:23:03,064 Speaker 4: been the banks that supported Epstein. I'm talking Deutsche Bank 492 00:23:03,104 --> 00:23:05,744 Speaker 4: has paid over one hundred and fifty million dollars in 493 00:23:05,944 --> 00:23:12,424 Speaker 4: fines for facilitating suspicious trains, mostly to Eastern Europe, clearly 494 00:23:12,504 --> 00:23:16,224 Speaker 4: often to girls that he's trafficked with JP Morgan. Now 495 00:23:16,304 --> 00:23:19,224 Speaker 4: it's now coming out in the Epstein files that they 496 00:23:19,264 --> 00:23:25,464 Speaker 4: have facilitated over a billion dollars worth of suspicious transactions, 497 00:23:26,104 --> 00:23:29,864 Speaker 4: often to Eastern Europe, often to women, and they're now 498 00:23:29,904 --> 00:23:32,824 Speaker 4: coming clean and saying that, ooh, yeah, maybe we should 499 00:23:32,864 --> 00:23:38,424 Speaker 4: have reported those, like what was Epstein's relationships with some 500 00:23:38,544 --> 00:23:41,184 Speaker 4: of the banks and the sex trafficking. 501 00:23:40,864 --> 00:23:42,864 Speaker 2: You know in the New York Times. Obviously he has 502 00:23:42,864 --> 00:23:46,023 Speaker 2: done some very exhaustive reporting on these bank relationships. I mean, 503 00:23:46,064 --> 00:23:49,144 Speaker 2: I think ultimately it was a situation where people are saying, well, 504 00:23:49,304 --> 00:23:51,784 Speaker 2: these banks, they weren't following know your customer laws. They 505 00:23:51,784 --> 00:23:53,904 Speaker 2: were sort of they should have known there was something 506 00:23:53,944 --> 00:23:56,144 Speaker 2: shady going on here based on these big payments, all 507 00:23:56,184 --> 00:23:59,424 Speaker 2: this money washing around, and at minimum they appeared to 508 00:23:59,464 --> 00:24:01,464 Speaker 2: have not looked at that. And then it makes you wonder, well, 509 00:24:01,464 --> 00:24:03,384 Speaker 2: with something else going on here that was more sinister. 510 00:24:03,584 --> 00:24:06,744 Speaker 2: As you guys know, when someone appears to operate with 511 00:24:06,824 --> 00:24:10,624 Speaker 2: impunity or to sort of avoid the the catches that 512 00:24:10,704 --> 00:24:13,023 Speaker 2: might trip up someone else, you wonder do they have 513 00:24:13,064 --> 00:24:15,144 Speaker 2: ties to something or is there a reason the bank 514 00:24:15,184 --> 00:24:17,824 Speaker 2: is looking the other way. That's something I think Democrats 515 00:24:17,864 --> 00:24:19,744 Speaker 2: have been looking at as well, and hopefully more will 516 00:24:19,744 --> 00:24:21,904 Speaker 2: come out about that, because it's just still inexplicable how 517 00:24:21,944 --> 00:24:24,624 Speaker 2: this guy was able to really operate with very little punishment. 518 00:24:24,784 --> 00:24:26,624 Speaker 4: Yeah, and some of the stuff that's just come out 519 00:24:26,744 --> 00:24:30,264 Speaker 4: is some of the banks actually were helping him, like 520 00:24:30,384 --> 00:24:32,864 Speaker 4: how to get around these regulations so that they didn't 521 00:24:32,904 --> 00:24:33,744 Speaker 4: have to report it. 522 00:24:50,984 --> 00:24:53,144 Speaker 3: So will Obviously you've phoned laying here and you've done 523 00:24:53,184 --> 00:24:55,984 Speaker 3: extra reporting on a lot of these sort of lunatics 524 00:24:56,024 --> 00:24:58,304 Speaker 3: or grifters or people who've actually folled their way into 525 00:24:58,344 --> 00:25:02,144 Speaker 3: influencing this administration. Let me ask you, like, where do 526 00:25:02,184 --> 00:25:05,064 Speaker 3: you think some of the other big main street mainstream 527 00:25:05,144 --> 00:25:07,504 Speaker 3: outlets stumble. Where do they fail in terms of their 528 00:25:07,544 --> 00:25:11,544 Speaker 3: coverage of this world, Because it's obviously something that traditionally 529 00:25:11,624 --> 00:25:13,624 Speaker 3: the Washington Post of the New York Times they are 530 00:25:13,664 --> 00:25:15,664 Speaker 3: not paying any attention to that world. But that world 531 00:25:15,704 --> 00:25:17,864 Speaker 3: is now in the middle of our lives and of 532 00:25:17,864 --> 00:25:20,824 Speaker 3: the administration. So how do you think they've covered it 533 00:25:20,864 --> 00:25:21,904 Speaker 3: and what can they do better? 534 00:25:22,424 --> 00:25:23,824 Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, I mean I think on one end, 535 00:25:23,824 --> 00:25:25,384 Speaker 2: I do think the coverage in the mainstream press has 536 00:25:25,384 --> 00:25:27,464 Speaker 2: gotten a lot better in the past. Let's a year 537 00:25:27,544 --> 00:25:29,904 Speaker 2: or so, I think with the second Trump administration, I 538 00:25:29,944 --> 00:25:32,744 Speaker 2: think historically there's been this sense of obviously I was 539 00:25:32,744 --> 00:25:35,264 Speaker 2: previously at the Washington Post, there was a lot of, uh, 540 00:25:35,344 --> 00:25:37,944 Speaker 2: you know, is this have you just found some random 541 00:25:37,984 --> 00:25:40,864 Speaker 2: kook on the internet and this person has no real influence. 542 00:25:40,864 --> 00:25:42,584 Speaker 2: We have to take this seriously. I mean, I think 543 00:25:42,584 --> 00:25:45,984 Speaker 2: also for mainstream outlets, there's this challenge of kind of 544 00:25:46,104 --> 00:25:49,064 Speaker 2: acknowledging what the Republican Party is and who has influence 545 00:25:49,064 --> 00:25:51,744 Speaker 2: in it, because you know, it can seem really biased 546 00:25:51,784 --> 00:25:54,144 Speaker 2: to say, well, this kuk kind of walked in off 547 00:25:54,184 --> 00:25:55,784 Speaker 2: the street and said he had an idea about the 548 00:25:55,784 --> 00:25:59,024 Speaker 2: twenty twenty election, and now the Director of National Intelligence 549 00:25:59,064 --> 00:26:01,144 Speaker 2: is acting on it. I mean that it can seem 550 00:26:01,184 --> 00:26:03,304 Speaker 2: like you're being unfair because that's not the politics we're 551 00:26:03,384 --> 00:26:05,704 Speaker 2: used to. But I mean it is often the reality 552 00:26:05,704 --> 00:26:07,784 Speaker 2: of it in the case of where people will also say, 553 00:26:07,784 --> 00:26:09,984 Speaker 2: are we fueling this movement by cover it or are 554 00:26:10,024 --> 00:26:13,184 Speaker 2: refueling some negative group? And so in the case of QAnon, 555 00:26:13,224 --> 00:26:15,384 Speaker 2: for example, people would say, you're just giving them publicity, 556 00:26:15,624 --> 00:26:17,344 Speaker 2: and I think we're like murdering people a bunch of 557 00:26:17,384 --> 00:26:20,184 Speaker 2: QON people participated in January sixth. At that point, once 558 00:26:20,224 --> 00:26:21,704 Speaker 2: they were killing people, I was like, we have to 559 00:26:21,744 --> 00:26:24,263 Speaker 2: acknowledge to the audience what's going on here, because if 560 00:26:24,304 --> 00:26:26,664 Speaker 2: you don't cover it, then because these people have so 561 00:26:26,744 --> 00:26:28,664 Speaker 2: much influence in these ideas. You know, if you look 562 00:26:28,664 --> 00:26:31,704 Speaker 2: at like the allegations like daycare fraud in Minnesota, which 563 00:26:31,744 --> 00:26:34,424 Speaker 2: really prompted the ice surge and results in the deaths 564 00:26:34,424 --> 00:26:36,464 Speaker 2: of two American citizens, if you aren't saying this is 565 00:26:36,504 --> 00:26:38,624 Speaker 2: all based on this one crazy video and we're going 566 00:26:38,664 --> 00:26:40,984 Speaker 2: to look at it and who's behind this video, then 567 00:26:41,064 --> 00:26:43,064 Speaker 2: you know, the audience outside of right when media is 568 00:26:43,064 --> 00:26:44,704 Speaker 2: going to be missing the story and really what the 569 00:26:44,744 --> 00:26:47,464 Speaker 2: administration's up to. So I do think the coverage has improved. 570 00:26:47,464 --> 00:26:50,064 Speaker 4: Though, Yeah, that's a really good point. I want to 571 00:26:50,104 --> 00:26:52,904 Speaker 4: follow on to John's point this. So I do look 572 00:26:52,944 --> 00:26:57,064 Speaker 4: at Fox and right wing news websites often for people 573 00:26:57,144 --> 00:26:59,224 Speaker 4: out there who only watch Fox. But the President of 574 00:26:59,304 --> 00:27:03,504 Speaker 4: United States tweeted a video that showed Barack and mill 575 00:27:04,064 --> 00:27:07,544 Speaker 4: Barack and Michelle Obama as monkeys, right, their face is 576 00:27:07,544 --> 00:27:12,504 Speaker 4: superimposed onto monkey bodies, and yet in Fox this was 577 00:27:12,544 --> 00:27:16,904 Speaker 4: never covered, Right, I've watched and this didn't happen, Nor 578 00:27:16,944 --> 00:27:21,144 Speaker 4: has Epstein's relationships with the Russians. These aren't really being 579 00:27:21,224 --> 00:27:25,584 Speaker 4: covered either. And so you talk about rainstream media and 580 00:27:25,824 --> 00:27:28,464 Speaker 4: don't know how you push in Fox or even to 581 00:27:28,504 --> 00:27:31,864 Speaker 4: be really frank, the Washington Post editorial page is like 582 00:27:32,064 --> 00:27:34,624 Speaker 4: not covering these things the same way or completely. 583 00:27:34,664 --> 00:27:36,384 Speaker 2: I mean, look, we got to talk about Fox as 584 00:27:36,424 --> 00:27:38,984 Speaker 2: mainstream media because they're they're probably the most successful media 585 00:27:38,984 --> 00:27:41,984 Speaker 2: company in a long time, I think, and as you said, 586 00:27:42,144 --> 00:27:44,184 Speaker 2: we have to grapple with the fact that they were 587 00:27:44,224 --> 00:27:48,064 Speaker 2: secluding their audience away daytime, yesterday or two days ago. 588 00:27:48,144 --> 00:27:49,744 Speaker 2: Is all about I think other outlets were talking so 589 00:27:49,784 --> 00:27:52,264 Speaker 2: much about Pambondi and the Epstein hearings, which don't look 590 00:27:52,304 --> 00:27:55,344 Speaker 2: great for the administration. On the other hand, on Fox, 591 00:27:55,384 --> 00:27:57,864 Speaker 2: it's just all this Vana gut three kidnapping, all of 592 00:27:57,904 --> 00:28:00,824 Speaker 2: these kind of true crime stories that keep the audience 593 00:28:00,864 --> 00:28:03,104 Speaker 2: focused on things that don't look bad for Trump. It's 594 00:28:03,104 --> 00:28:06,104 Speaker 2: obviously a very complicated situation. I think they're very They're 595 00:28:06,104 --> 00:28:08,464 Speaker 2: happy to focus on anything that's good for Trump. And 596 00:28:08,824 --> 00:28:10,744 Speaker 2: in terms of this sort of media bubble, these people 597 00:28:10,784 --> 00:28:13,184 Speaker 2: are in it. As you mentioned that what about as 598 00:28:13,424 --> 00:28:16,344 Speaker 2: with there are all these Charlie Kirk conspiracy theories running wild 599 00:28:16,424 --> 00:28:18,504 Speaker 2: on the right. And then even when people like Ben 600 00:28:18,544 --> 00:28:21,104 Speaker 2: Shapiro get up and say, hey, is this a little weird? 601 00:28:21,224 --> 00:28:23,384 Speaker 2: This guy was murdered and now we're blaming white his 602 00:28:23,424 --> 00:28:25,744 Speaker 2: widow for doing the murder. Is this a little heartless? 603 00:28:25,744 --> 00:28:27,984 Speaker 2: Have we kind of like lost touch of reality? And 604 00:28:27,984 --> 00:28:29,504 Speaker 2: then they have to say, we don't want to be 605 00:28:29,584 --> 00:28:30,784 Speaker 2: like the left. We don't want to be like the 606 00:28:30,784 --> 00:28:32,944 Speaker 2: crazy pronoun people and the people who are letting boys 607 00:28:32,944 --> 00:28:34,744 Speaker 2: play in girls sports. And it was like, all right, 608 00:28:34,824 --> 00:28:36,544 Speaker 2: I think one of these is a little more serious 609 00:28:36,584 --> 00:28:38,464 Speaker 2: than the other. There is kind of this this sense 610 00:28:38,504 --> 00:28:40,224 Speaker 2: the only way you can reach the right is saying 611 00:28:40,304 --> 00:28:42,344 Speaker 2: we can't be like those crazy liberals who we all 612 00:28:42,344 --> 00:28:43,384 Speaker 2: know are so much worse. 613 00:28:44,304 --> 00:28:47,144 Speaker 3: Exactly. One of the things that always comes up is like, 614 00:28:47,464 --> 00:28:52,144 Speaker 3: do these people believe this stuff or do they know 615 00:28:52,224 --> 00:28:54,144 Speaker 3: that they can make money, They can capture an audience 616 00:28:54,144 --> 00:28:55,904 Speaker 3: and make more money off of it, whether you think 617 00:28:55,944 --> 00:28:59,344 Speaker 3: they are true believers like Canda Sowens or Laura Lumer 618 00:28:59,384 --> 00:29:01,344 Speaker 3: or whatever, or are they doing it for the money. 619 00:29:01,584 --> 00:29:03,784 Speaker 3: And then just a step to Donald Trump, does he 620 00:29:03,864 --> 00:29:06,744 Speaker 3: actually believe the stuff he's putting out, or is he 621 00:29:06,784 --> 00:29:09,104 Speaker 3: some genius who has figured out how to keep us 622 00:29:09,144 --> 00:29:12,624 Speaker 3: all deflected he steals behind our backs. 623 00:29:12,784 --> 00:29:14,664 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think it's interesting. I think for 624 00:29:14,824 --> 00:29:16,744 Speaker 2: a lot of these characters, it's sort of a blend, right. 625 00:29:16,864 --> 00:29:19,024 Speaker 2: Take someone like Alex Jones. He grew up in this 626 00:29:19,144 --> 00:29:22,544 Speaker 2: very conspiratorial kind of John Birch society background, so I 627 00:29:22,584 --> 00:29:24,704 Speaker 2: believe he probably thinks a lot of this stuff is true. 628 00:29:24,904 --> 00:29:27,224 Speaker 2: On the other hand, whether it's him or Candice Owns, 629 00:29:27,304 --> 00:29:29,264 Speaker 2: these people are also making a lot of money, and 630 00:29:29,344 --> 00:29:32,344 Speaker 2: so I think they're incentivized to maybe go further or 631 00:29:32,384 --> 00:29:34,824 Speaker 2: to believe far crazier ideas than they would if they 632 00:29:34,864 --> 00:29:36,824 Speaker 2: were just accountants or something like that, if they didn't 633 00:29:36,824 --> 00:29:38,944 Speaker 2: have this platform that was paying them so much. On 634 00:29:38,984 --> 00:29:40,704 Speaker 2: the other hand, you know, I think of someone like 635 00:29:40,744 --> 00:29:43,144 Speaker 2: Michael Flynn, who I saw at a q and on 636 00:29:43,184 --> 00:29:46,224 Speaker 2: convention hawking the q Andon merchandise for thousands of dollars. 637 00:29:46,424 --> 00:29:48,384 Speaker 2: They were putting all this money into his legal fund, 638 00:29:48,704 --> 00:29:51,304 Speaker 2: and then he was recorded saying, yeah, I think QAnon 639 00:29:51,824 --> 00:29:54,504 Speaker 2: is basically a plot to make Republicans look bad, even 640 00:29:54,544 --> 00:29:56,344 Speaker 2: as he's out there as a hero of q Andon 641 00:29:56,464 --> 00:29:58,664 Speaker 2: he privately thought it was a disaster. So I think 642 00:29:58,904 --> 00:30:01,104 Speaker 2: it runs the gamut. And then in terms of Trump himself, 643 00:30:01,344 --> 00:30:03,544 Speaker 2: I think we can he's a guy who's just focused 644 00:30:03,544 --> 00:30:06,624 Speaker 2: on whether someone supports him. He'll be asked, is this 645 00:30:06,664 --> 00:30:09,384 Speaker 2: conspiracy theory? Can you please disavow it? You know you're 646 00:30:09,384 --> 00:30:10,824 Speaker 2: at the center or something like Q and HO, or 647 00:30:10,984 --> 00:30:12,824 Speaker 2: will you tell people to stop being so crazy and 648 00:30:12,944 --> 00:30:15,344 Speaker 2: using your name for these ideas? And he sees someone 649 00:30:15,344 --> 00:30:17,464 Speaker 2: who supports him, and he'said, maybe they're right, you know, 650 00:30:17,464 --> 00:30:19,704 Speaker 2: because this is a Trump super fan club. And I 651 00:30:19,744 --> 00:30:21,864 Speaker 2: think in that way, he has fanned these flames of 652 00:30:21,904 --> 00:30:24,544 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories because he doesn't want to disavow them because 653 00:30:24,544 --> 00:30:26,864 Speaker 2: he sees it as well, it's gonna whip people into 654 00:30:26,904 --> 00:30:28,704 Speaker 2: a frenzy. For me, why would I not like that? 655 00:30:29,064 --> 00:30:30,704 Speaker 4: I think what we're going to see with some of 656 00:30:30,744 --> 00:30:32,744 Speaker 4: the stuff that's recently come out with the Epstein files 657 00:30:33,064 --> 00:30:36,584 Speaker 4: and with our former employer, the Central Intelligence Agency, we 658 00:30:36,624 --> 00:30:41,664 Speaker 4: see that Epstein had reached out to CIA and had 659 00:30:41,704 --> 00:30:45,984 Speaker 4: requested via a FOIA request Freedom of Information Act to 660 00:30:46,304 --> 00:30:51,624 Speaker 4: provide information on any relationship between him and CIA. And 661 00:30:51,744 --> 00:30:54,704 Speaker 4: CIA went back. This is years ago and said, gave 662 00:30:54,704 --> 00:30:57,624 Speaker 4: the Glomar response, we can either confirm nor deny, and 663 00:30:57,704 --> 00:31:01,104 Speaker 4: I'd have to say ignorant. So IM going to speak 664 00:31:01,144 --> 00:31:04,584 Speaker 4: boldly on this because I don't know. It Probably wouldn't 665 00:31:04,624 --> 00:31:09,264 Speaker 4: be out of the ordinary. Wouldn't be insane for CIA 666 00:31:09,304 --> 00:31:13,144 Speaker 4: to have bumped into Jeffrey Epstein in the past, given 667 00:31:13,424 --> 00:31:16,304 Speaker 4: the people he's talking to, right he's talking to Vitali 668 00:31:16,424 --> 00:31:19,344 Speaker 4: Chirk and the UN ambassador and to Ad Baruch, the 669 00:31:19,384 --> 00:31:24,024 Speaker 4: former Israeli Prime Minister and Norwegian Prime minister. If he 670 00:31:24,104 --> 00:31:26,584 Speaker 4: had reached out to us or had bumped into us 671 00:31:26,584 --> 00:31:29,304 Speaker 4: in New York or Washington and said, yeah, I'll tell 672 00:31:29,344 --> 00:31:33,064 Speaker 4: you what I'm talking to the Russians about. CIA might 673 00:31:33,104 --> 00:31:35,264 Speaker 4: want to listen or sit down and like, well, what 674 00:31:35,344 --> 00:31:38,344 Speaker 4: have you got to tell us? But from my background, 675 00:31:38,344 --> 00:31:40,304 Speaker 4: and I'd like to start here what John thinks about this. 676 00:31:40,784 --> 00:31:44,704 Speaker 4: We wouldn't ever recruit him as a source somebody like that, 677 00:31:44,904 --> 00:31:48,784 Speaker 4: especially before he was sentenced for sex trafficking. We might 678 00:31:48,864 --> 00:31:50,544 Speaker 4: listen to him. That wouldn't be out of the order. 679 00:31:50,824 --> 00:31:53,344 Speaker 3: I don't know. I suspect that there wasn't much connection. 680 00:31:53,424 --> 00:31:56,384 Speaker 3: There's you know, he's an American running around with which people. 681 00:31:56,464 --> 00:31:58,584 Speaker 3: People probably talked about him, So there's probably some reporting 682 00:31:58,584 --> 00:32:00,784 Speaker 3: in there and stuff, but I can't imagine why it 683 00:32:00,784 --> 00:32:02,744 Speaker 3: would be of any interest to be in touch with him. 684 00:32:03,144 --> 00:32:05,704 Speaker 3: He reportedly had more connections with Israel and those other 685 00:32:06,184 --> 00:32:06,944 Speaker 3: places like that. 686 00:32:07,064 --> 00:32:09,064 Speaker 4: Yeah, we don't know, but I think there's probably going 687 00:32:09,104 --> 00:32:12,904 Speaker 4: to be a lot of conspiracy theorizing on that particular tidbit. 688 00:32:13,144 --> 00:32:15,224 Speaker 2: I think it's a rich ground for conspiracy theories of 689 00:32:15,264 --> 00:32:17,144 Speaker 2: all kinds. And I think it in part because, as 690 00:32:17,144 --> 00:32:18,864 Speaker 2: we were talking about earlier, there was a lot of 691 00:32:18,944 --> 00:32:21,224 Speaker 2: weird stuff going on, and I think the fact that 692 00:32:21,224 --> 00:32:23,664 Speaker 2: the Trump administration seems to be so reluctant, you know 693 00:32:23,664 --> 00:32:26,544 Speaker 2: that they have to pulling teeth to get any information 694 00:32:26,624 --> 00:32:28,744 Speaker 2: out on what's going on with these redactions, all this stuff, 695 00:32:28,864 --> 00:32:30,984 Speaker 2: I think that obviously just fuels people's imagination. 696 00:32:31,384 --> 00:32:34,064 Speaker 3: One of the dangers of making the Department of Justice 697 00:32:34,104 --> 00:32:37,384 Speaker 3: a partisan weapon for the administration, This is the downside. 698 00:32:37,544 --> 00:32:41,544 Speaker 3: So because nobody trusts the Department of Justice, the Congress 699 00:32:41,544 --> 00:32:43,224 Speaker 3: and other people have to say, you need to dump 700 00:32:43,264 --> 00:32:45,144 Speaker 3: all of this stuff out for us to see. 701 00:32:45,184 --> 00:32:45,344 Speaker 2: Now. 702 00:32:45,344 --> 00:32:50,064 Speaker 3: Of course, you dumped three six million pages of stuff, verifiable, 703 00:32:50,144 --> 00:32:54,624 Speaker 3: unverifiable gossip. It's going to create conspiracy theories. It's going 704 00:32:54,664 --> 00:32:56,704 Speaker 3: to be like the JFK thing, like thirty years from now, 705 00:32:56,744 --> 00:32:58,464 Speaker 3: they're going to be like trying to connect saying, oh, 706 00:32:58,584 --> 00:33:00,904 Speaker 3: we didn't pay attention to this important word in this 707 00:33:01,104 --> 00:33:04,784 Speaker 3: email obviously, you know, signifies this and means that. There's 708 00:33:04,864 --> 00:33:07,744 Speaker 3: lots of problems with weaponizing the DOJ, But one of 709 00:33:07,784 --> 00:33:11,544 Speaker 3: them is when the answer is to just dump information 710 00:33:11,704 --> 00:33:15,664 Speaker 3: into the public that is going to create conspiracy theories 711 00:33:15,664 --> 00:33:18,384 Speaker 3: and attack people and names that are out there that 712 00:33:18,584 --> 00:33:22,224 Speaker 3: may have had done nothing wrong. This is another problem 713 00:33:22,264 --> 00:33:27,104 Speaker 3: when you treat your government as a non serious professional organization. 714 00:33:27,344 --> 00:33:29,144 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean I do think there's just a 715 00:33:29,144 --> 00:33:31,464 Speaker 2: lot of that. In the past, whether it was DHS 716 00:33:31,544 --> 00:33:34,864 Speaker 2: or the DOJ or these other organizations or departments of government, 717 00:33:35,144 --> 00:33:37,424 Speaker 2: you could assume they were more or less telling the truth. 718 00:33:37,464 --> 00:33:40,184 Speaker 2: Maybe they were omitting something, but the idea that they 719 00:33:40,184 --> 00:33:43,504 Speaker 2: would just lie about an incident was pretty unlikely. Now. 720 00:33:43,584 --> 00:33:46,184 Speaker 2: I mean we see constantly DHS, for example, is always 721 00:33:46,184 --> 00:33:48,704 Speaker 2: being disproved as they'll say, well, we had to deport 722 00:33:48,704 --> 00:33:50,664 Speaker 2: this guy in a criminal background, it's not true. I 723 00:33:50,704 --> 00:33:53,864 Speaker 2: think there's been a lot of damage to trust to government, and. 724 00:33:53,824 --> 00:33:56,344 Speaker 4: With these millions of pages coming out, there's no one 725 00:33:56,424 --> 00:34:01,584 Speaker 4: really to adjudicate what's important, what's real, which dots to connect. 726 00:34:02,104 --> 00:34:05,744 Speaker 4: And I think we're planting dragon's teeth, and that conspiracy 727 00:34:05,784 --> 00:34:07,824 Speaker 4: theories later are just going to come up. Because you 728 00:34:07,864 --> 00:34:11,263 Speaker 4: could create three million pages, is you can probably create 729 00:34:11,304 --> 00:34:14,903 Speaker 4: any conspiracy theory you want. And of course, lord knows 730 00:34:14,944 --> 00:34:17,344 Speaker 4: how many more pages are to come. The last thousand 731 00:34:17,344 --> 00:34:19,263 Speaker 4: pages that they would ever want or release will be 732 00:34:19,263 --> 00:34:21,544 Speaker 4: the most interesting ones, right, and you know you got 733 00:34:21,544 --> 00:34:23,343 Speaker 4: to assume that the first three million are like the 734 00:34:23,344 --> 00:34:24,943 Speaker 4: ones that they think they can get away with. 735 00:34:25,263 --> 00:34:27,143 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, Dick Durbin and the Senator is that he 736 00:34:27,143 --> 00:34:29,423 Speaker 2: heard from FBI agents who were told to flag every 737 00:34:29,424 --> 00:34:31,903 Speaker 2: mention of Trump's name in the files. They won't say 738 00:34:31,904 --> 00:34:34,584 Speaker 2: what happened to those files and where they destroyed they, 739 00:34:34,703 --> 00:34:36,703 Speaker 2: Will they ever come out or have they been hidden 740 00:34:36,743 --> 00:34:38,984 Speaker 2: away somewhere else, whether they'll never be found. I think 741 00:34:39,024 --> 00:34:42,143 Speaker 2: it's a situation that this kind of weird reluctance they've 742 00:34:42,143 --> 00:34:44,303 Speaker 2: had to release the files is going to make it 743 00:34:44,344 --> 00:34:46,344 Speaker 2: so that there's really never a satisfactory answer. 744 00:34:46,703 --> 00:34:48,464 Speaker 3: So will what are you working on now? What are 745 00:34:48,504 --> 00:34:51,263 Speaker 3: you looking at as we move forward in this year, 746 00:34:51,344 --> 00:34:53,504 Speaker 3: what are the things that are intriguing to you? The 747 00:34:53,504 --> 00:34:56,343 Speaker 3: people who seem to be playing roles that we haven't 748 00:34:56,384 --> 00:34:58,464 Speaker 3: really paid attention to yet and we should pay attention to. 749 00:34:59,104 --> 00:35:01,343 Speaker 2: I'm very interested in how they're going to construct this 750 00:35:01,464 --> 00:35:04,024 Speaker 2: case about the twenty twenty election. Who these characters are 751 00:35:04,064 --> 00:35:07,663 Speaker 2: going to be, because historically, whenever you get into we're 752 00:35:07,663 --> 00:35:09,783 Speaker 2: going to have a witness about twenty twenty, going to 753 00:35:09,864 --> 00:35:11,903 Speaker 2: have this expert who's going to come out, it is 754 00:35:12,384 --> 00:35:15,304 Speaker 2: always like the least credible possible person, someone who's almost 755 00:35:15,344 --> 00:35:17,663 Speaker 2: like laughable. You know, you wouldn't trust them as like 756 00:35:17,663 --> 00:35:19,504 Speaker 2: a witness on a traffic ticket. You know. There was 757 00:35:19,544 --> 00:35:24,064 Speaker 2: this infamous falconer named Alan Parrott, and he was involved 758 00:35:24,064 --> 00:35:26,863 Speaker 2: in the falcon trade. And suddenly he said, well I 759 00:35:26,904 --> 00:35:29,184 Speaker 2: heard the CIA didn't really kill bin Laden And somehow 760 00:35:29,263 --> 00:35:32,144 Speaker 2: this links into why twenty twenty was stolen, and Trump said, 761 00:35:32,464 --> 00:35:34,664 Speaker 2: I love it, and he put it all out there, 762 00:35:34,944 --> 00:35:37,783 Speaker 2: and so it's like these characters who just emerged. Now 763 00:35:37,783 --> 00:35:41,504 Speaker 2: there's a Venezuelan guy who was under investigation for extorting 764 00:35:41,544 --> 00:35:44,263 Speaker 2: rich Venezuelans and now was surprised. Now he says, Oh yeah, 765 00:35:44,304 --> 00:35:46,344 Speaker 2: Venezuela stole the election. I'm trying to buddy up with 766 00:35:46,384 --> 00:35:48,703 Speaker 2: the American government. There's so many rich characters that are 767 00:35:48,703 --> 00:35:50,424 Speaker 2: going to come out and then they get their relevance 768 00:35:50,663 --> 00:35:53,584 Speaker 2: when someone like Tulca Gabbard or Cash Betel latches onto them. 769 00:35:53,623 --> 00:35:56,183 Speaker 3: I wish people understood how the government worked better so 770 00:35:56,263 --> 00:35:57,504 Speaker 3: that wouldn't fall for this stuff. 771 00:35:57,584 --> 00:35:59,944 Speaker 4: But why are we starting with a twenty twenty election. 772 00:36:00,504 --> 00:36:04,944 Speaker 4: Why not the claim that Ted Cruz stole the Iowa 773 00:36:05,024 --> 00:36:07,183 Speaker 4: caucus from Donald Trump? Right? 774 00:36:07,384 --> 00:36:09,944 Speaker 2: How deep does it go? 775 00:36:11,024 --> 00:36:12,783 Speaker 3: We know as we go forward, Will you guys in 776 00:36:12,864 --> 00:36:14,743 Speaker 3: the bulwark and you were going to be covering these things, 777 00:36:14,783 --> 00:36:19,464 Speaker 3: and so I encourage our listeners to follow Will's newsletter. 778 00:36:19,544 --> 00:36:21,263 Speaker 3: So thank you so much for your time and really 779 00:36:21,263 --> 00:36:21,903 Speaker 3: appreciate it. 780 00:36:21,984 --> 00:36:23,663 Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for having me back. It was great to 781 00:36:23,663 --> 00:36:27,303 Speaker 2: be here. 782 00:36:28,223 --> 00:36:33,264 Speaker 5: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Cipher, 783 00:36:33,584 --> 00:36:34,864 Speaker 5: and Jonathan Stern. 784 00:36:35,024 --> 00:36:37,384 Speaker 1: The associate producer is Rachel Harner. 785 00:36:37,663 --> 00:36:41,464 Speaker 5: Mission Implausible It's a production of honorable mention and abominable 786 00:36:41,504 --> 00:36:43,463 Speaker 5: pictures for iHeart Podcasts.