1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: today's best minds. And on the third day, Kevin McCarthy 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: has lost more rounds of voting than there are days 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: of the week. We have an excellent show for you today. 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prise winning author Stacy Schiff stops by to talk 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: to us about her latest biography, Samuel Adams The Revolutionary. 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to Barbara F Walter, author of How 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: Civil Wars Start, who will tell us about what she 10 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: sees as our democracy hangs by a thread. But first 11 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: we have NBC News is national political reporter Jonathan Allen. 12 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, John Allen, Molly John Fast, friend, countryman. 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: You've been in Congress for two days now. How many 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: times have you seen Kevin McCarthy lose the speakership. I 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: think we're in eight now as we speak. I feel 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: like it's an advertisement for what Nancy Pelosi did. I mean, 17 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: I remember reading some reporting that said, you know, she 18 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: would handle people for their votes. She would call them 19 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: and email them, and she had someone that the grandmother 20 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: called them. You know, she was very like on it. 21 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 1: I think this is a case for that kind of whipping. 22 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: On the one hand, it does show how effective and 23 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: efficient Nancy Pelosi was. On the other hand, it shows 24 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: that Kevin McCarthy is the first person in a hundred 25 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: years to have to go to a second ballot, much 26 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: less than eighth ballot or ninth ballot, or however many 27 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: we might get to it. So, on the one hand, 28 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi effective and efficient. On the other hand, Kevin 29 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: McCarthy not just ineffective and inefficient in the moment, but 30 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: at a historic level of the last century. Yeah, when 31 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: he said on Monday, he said, you know, he explained 32 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: to us in the viewing public his plan, which was 33 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: just to make everyone vote until they voted for him, 34 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: not an effective plan. Huh. Well, I mean it's possible 35 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: that we could see some retraction, we could see some 36 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: you know, we could see some erosion in the group 37 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: of people who are opposed to him. But the problem 38 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: with that is the people who are opposed to him 39 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: are the more fanatical, the more extreme, so they are 40 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: much more likely to take things to extremes, and the 41 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: people who are behind Kevin McCarthy are much more likely 42 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: to look around and say, like, maybe Kevin, if you 43 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: can't do it, maybe we should look at somebody else 44 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: and see if there's someone who can do it. I mean, 45 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: what is it like on the floor. I mean, this 46 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: is like, in my mind the dream of all backbench congressmen. 47 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: I mean, you see congress people you haven't ever seen 48 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: on television on television and they get their moment of 49 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: fame where they get to stand up and talk about 50 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: really quickly for the good of the republic, or you know, 51 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: they shout out in Leroy Jenkins fashion a vote for 52 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: speaker and then they go back away and you've never 53 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: seen them until the next volte. But yeah, I mean 54 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: it's true, and um, what's fascinating also right now? You know, 55 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: I was in the House gallery on Tuesday when the 56 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: voting started and for the first couple of votes, and 57 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: you know, so when you're in the House gallery you 58 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: can see what's going on the floor, but for the 59 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: first time, viewers at home are really getting a feel 60 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: of what's going on behind the scenes because there are 61 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: no rules governing what c span and the cameras in 62 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: the chamber can show. Will you explain that a little bit, 63 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: because that's really interesting Right now? The House doesn't really exist. 64 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: That is to say, because members are sworn in after 65 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: a speaker has chosen, there are no members of Congress. 66 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: There are no rules for this Congress. They are operating 67 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: on sort of the history and precedent of how you 68 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: have speaker votes, and really the only thing that they 69 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: can do is either vote or adjourn until a certain 70 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: time where they come back and vote, and until that happens, 71 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: they won't have rules. And because they don't have rules 72 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: governing what can happen in the chamber, cameras that are 73 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: in the chamber, controlled by c SPAN, can basically zoom 74 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: in on whatever they want. Usually when there are rules 75 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: in the House, they are limited in what they can do. 76 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: They're limited in what angles they can show and who 77 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: they can show on the floor. So viewers at home 78 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: we're getting a much more intimate story about what's actually 79 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: going on in the house floor when you see Matt 80 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: Gates and Alexandre Acasio Cortes conferring with each other. I 81 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: asked her about that the other day, I said, what 82 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: does she say? She said, I was fact checking Kevin McCarthy. 83 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: So McCarthy will tell Republicans, hey, if you don't do 84 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: X then the Democrats are going to vote for me 85 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: or whatever. And then you know, so Gates is checking 86 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 1: with Casio Cortez to find out what it is the 87 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: Democrats are really going to do or not do, and she's, 88 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: you know, apparently according to her, giving him some information 89 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: about that. Today you could see Kevin McCarthy, you know, 90 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: sitting down with Andy Clyde, one of the Calcitran Republicans, 91 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: for a very long period of time, you know, just 92 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: chatting him up, looking like he was trying to win 93 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: over a vote. You don't get to I mean, you 94 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: get to see that if you are a reporter who 95 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: sits in the gallery above the House Chamber in you know, 96 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: important vote situations. Sometimes you see stuff like that. Viewers 97 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: at home very seldom good to see it. So that's 98 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: so fascinating about what's been going on this week. So 99 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: it is this situation was c SPAN where c SPAN 100 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: is not being ruled right now by the speaker, correct, 101 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 1: Whereas it is typically limited by the rules of the House, 102 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: which you know, the speaker puts forward a package of 103 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: rules once there's a speaker, and then the and then 104 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: the House votes on it, and you know, typically the 105 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: majority party supports the rules and the minority party votes 106 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: against them because the rules are designed to help the 107 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: majority party and harm the minority party for the most party, 108 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: and one of the rules that's you know you see 109 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 1: every two years limits what media can be in the 110 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: galleries and what those media can do. So let's talk 111 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: for a minute about where this goes. Now we have 112 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: this incredible fracas going was that the last vote where 113 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: mad Gates nominated Donald Trump, that kids did vote for 114 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: Donald Trump after saying yesterday that it was Gates's word, 115 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: not mine. Sad that Donald Trump had come out so 116 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: hard in favor of Kevin McCarthy. So, I mean, they're 117 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: they're not dominating a lot of different people. They don't 118 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: expect to win. What Lauren Bobert said she wanted was 119 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: that she wanted a one person mandate for this rule 120 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: to vacate the chair, so that would make it completely 121 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: impossible to be speaker. I thought that McCarthy actually acquiesced 122 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: to that though. Yeah, that that offers on the table 123 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: now to go from five votes to one vote to 124 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: make a motion to vacate the chair. The House would 125 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: still have to have a full vote to the House, 126 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: but you can imagine that if Lauren Bobert wanted to 127 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: vacate the chair, wanted to get rid of the speaker, 128 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: and brought that motion to the floor and there was 129 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: a vote on it, that all of the Democrats would 130 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: support her in that right, right, and then Kevin McCarthy 131 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: would be just a couple of votes away from getting 132 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: thrown over the side, right. And you know, if you 133 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: have to continue to have those votes over and over again, 134 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: even if you're winning them, it's deeply embarrassing and it 135 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's a tactic that could be very obstructionist 136 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: in terms of trying to get legislation passed. If it 137 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: had a sort of a privilege, meaning that I had 138 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: to be brought to the floor within a certain time period. 139 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: You could see that being used to prevent the House 140 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: from acting on things like ending bills or raising the 141 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: death ceiling to you know, retain the full faith in 142 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: credit with the United States. So we have these twenty 143 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: and one has now started to it was nineteen and 144 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: then you had one who was this abstaining who's now 145 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: and these are sort of the crazies, And then you 146 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: have Keem Jeffries who keeps winning, I mean not winning 147 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: enough to win, but he does get Democrats continually vote 148 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: for him. There's no world in which Republicans could like 149 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: accidentally make Keem Jeffreys a speaker. It could conceivably happen, 150 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: but they would immediately undo it. Okay, but it is 151 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: like amazing, right, I mean, he does keep winning even 152 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: though he's losing. It will not happen. Republicans would have 153 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: to vote for Jeffreys for that to happen. That's not 154 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: gonna happen. So I think one of the things that's 155 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: really important to remember about the speaker vote, unlike a 156 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: lot of elections, is it's not that you need a 157 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: plurality of votes. If that was case, like Kim Jeffreys 158 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,559 Speaker 1: would already be the speaker. Only need the most votes 159 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: out of the You need a majority of those who 160 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: are present and voting to eight unless you lose some people, 161 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: and then it goes down right right, meaning if there 162 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: are people who vote for someone or something that is 163 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: not an actual living human, those votes don't count. So 164 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: if someone votes for Mickey Mouse or for Dwight Eisenhower, 165 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: their vote doesn't count. Or if people vote present, those 166 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: votes come out of the denominator or if people are 167 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: simply absent, those votes come out of the dominator. So 168 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: it would be possible if trying to do the math here, 169 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: if you know, if roughly a dozen or so Republicans 170 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: didn't come to the floor, it would be possible for 171 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: Keevan Jeffries to when I think of his thirteen or 172 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: fourteen Republicans you know basically didn't vote, it would be 173 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: possible for Jefferies to win a majority of those voting. 174 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: But it's inconceivable to me that that would actually happen, 175 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: and if it did, it would be immediately corrected. I mean, 176 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: the body is designed for the majority party to run it. 177 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: We think that this is Steve Scolease's moment, and he, 178 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: as he once referred to himself forever to live in infamy, 179 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: David Duke without the baggage, so hardly a unity candidate. 180 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: But do you think this is the moment in which 181 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: this is his moment? Look, I mean, if you're Scholz, 182 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: you're in a box, which is that if you were 183 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: to go out there and start whipping against Kevin McCarthy 184 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: and stand for nomination against Kevin McCarthy, like McCarthy will 185 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: get more votes than you wrote, So if you're Scalize, 186 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: you have the same deathlock that they're in. Right, Well, 187 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: you have to wait until people get desperate for another candidate. 188 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: You have to wait until McCarthy, you know, basically withdraws, 189 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: at which point then you see if Steve Scalise has 190 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: two both which he may or may not, but he 191 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: has to be very careful because as long as he's 192 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: not campaigning for this job, and he has seen to 193 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: be loyal to McCarthy, then there's a possibility that McCarthy 194 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: withdraws and McCarthy's people go to Schleize. If Scleaze is 195 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: seen its screwing with McCarthy, then there may be some 196 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: McCarthy people that decided to screw back with them, right, 197 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: and that could end up in a hundred and fifty 198 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: four votes. Probably not, though, I mean eventually people are 199 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: going to be like this is because right now it 200 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: showed endures Congress. Right, it neither exists exists nor or 201 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: doesn't exist, right, I mean, that's right there. It exists 202 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: in the sense that there is certainly there's a Senate, 203 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: although they're not meeting either right now. And then there's 204 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: a house with a bunch of Congress people elect like 205 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: they are not members of the Congress yet, and they 206 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: don't have the rights of members of the Congress yet, 207 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: And so you know, it is a body that is 208 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: operating without really without any structural rules and sort of 209 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: depending on everyone's civility to observe the sort of two 210 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 1: basic rules that they've had, which is that you keep 211 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: voting until you have a speaker, or you adjourned for 212 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: a specific amount of fun. And even those votes are 213 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: getting hard for McCarthy to win, to be able to 214 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: adjourn for some hours, right, right, I saw that they 215 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: were having some trouble getting the numbers last night, and 216 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: now they're going to have to adjourn again today, right, 217 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: At some point, you would expect that to happen. Although 218 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 1: in theory they could just keep the House floor open 219 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: in perpetuity and keep voting. Wouldn't that be just a 220 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: nightmare for all parties involved. Well, it will exhaust people, 221 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: which would mean that one level House Republicans who support 222 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: McCarthy may get cranky with him earlier. On the other hand, 223 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: and maybe that there are some Democrats at three o'clock 224 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: in the morning that decide they don't really want to 225 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: show up you know, McCarthy can't count on that, so 226 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: it has to be sensitive to the needs and desires 227 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: of the people who support him, and some of them 228 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: will want to go home at night. How do you 229 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: see this going predict for may? I wish that I could. 230 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: You know, it's one of the rare times where you're 231 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: watching a vote in Congress and it's unpredictable what will happen. 232 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: And this, by the way, this is the one I 233 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: was talking to somebody used to work from Nancy Pelosi 234 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: today and they said, you know, she would never bring 235 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: to you know, something like this the floor without having 236 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: the votes already. And I was like, but this is 237 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: the one vote where the leader doesn't have any control 238 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: over when it up. I meaning the Constitution provides for 239 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: the you know, for the House to meet at noon 240 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: on January three, and the first thing that's for them 241 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: to vote for speaker. So you know, if you're the leader, 242 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: if you're the speaker of the House, most legislative issues 243 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: you can choose, you know, when to bring it to 244 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: the floor. You don't bring it to the four vote. 245 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: In this case, McCarthy had really no choice, right He's 246 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: been running for speakers since two I mean at least 247 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: so he's had plenty of time, but just to that 248 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: small point of like in this particular case, like there 249 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: was a fixed it's very unusual fixed date and time 250 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: for a vote, he was not ready by that deadline. 251 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: Even as he tries to make up for having missed 252 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: that deadline, he's not getting it. It's like it's like 253 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: a student who misses a test, right or like you know, 254 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: and then shows up they're like, all right, well I 255 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: got all this extra homework. Teachers like yeah, that's not 256 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 1: gonna do it, and come back with another set of homework. 257 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: What about this Now that's not going to do it? 258 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: Just keep coming back. I mean, where do you see 259 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: this going? If you have to predict it? And by 260 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: the way, I will make fun of you for this 261 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: if it's not right, So go, yeah, that's why I'm 262 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: not predicted. Well, I don't want to be the scorn 263 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: and derision. Doesn't it seem that every passing day, Steve 264 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: Scalise looks a little more likely or now, yes, it 265 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: is more likely with each passing day that the people 266 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 1: who support Kevin McCarthy work in another direction and Scalize 267 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: makes the most sense because he's the person who's won 268 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: the most votes in a leadership lestion before. Right, he's 269 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: number two, correct, so he's the he's the most obvious choice. 270 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: But if there was a very obvious choice, that person 271 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: want to come forward already. If that happens, do you 272 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: think that Kevin McCarthy will stay in Congress, you know, 273 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: just to fill out his term and then leave. I 274 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: mean that will be so traumatic for him. Yeah. I 275 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: think nobody will think about Kevin McCarthy. Ever, again, doesn't 276 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: when the speakership, and I think he knows that, which 277 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: is why he's continuing to have this fight. I mean, 278 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: like like outside make money, you know, as an advisor 279 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: to somebody or you know, like a pseudo lobbyist. You know, 280 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: they will be hired as you know, somebody to give 281 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: advice and counsel to some lobby infirm and so you 282 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: won't actually have to register, but will make his zillions 283 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: of dollars trying to influence his former colleagues. Right, makes sense, well, 284 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: very moral and ethical. One last question here for you, 285 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: my friend John Allen. These nineteen or twenty holdouts, a 286 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: lot of them are Trump supporters. Lauren boeberd Andy Biggs, 287 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: Matt Gates. Trump did make a full throttle and toursement 288 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: of Kevin McCarthy. What happened? So this is amazing mine. 289 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: So Trump has been working these guys for quite a 290 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: while behind the scenes. He's that conference calls, that one 291 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: on one and he's been trying to get them to 292 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: vote from McCarthy. My colleague Garrett Hate from NBC called 293 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: him on Tuesday and said, you know what's gonna have. 294 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: McCarthy's gonna and Trump said, We'll see what happens, which 295 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: was very very quickly got out of People are like, 296 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: wait what, and McCarthy were like, wait what. And McCarthy 297 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: had gone to Trump like a month after Trump had 298 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: done the insurrection, you'll remember, Yeah, he had pretty much 299 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: given up everything for Trump. He bent all the knees. 300 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: And so there's this reaction to Trump's sort of weak 301 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: sauce like we'll see what happens with McCarthy kind of response, 302 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: and then Trump comes out Wednesday morning, He's like, full 303 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: throated endorsement of Kevin McCarthy. Then all the people that 304 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: were voting against McCarthy, as you point out, like all 305 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: friends of Trump, all big allies of Trump, stayed against 306 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy. They were unmoved completely, like Donald Trump had 307 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: no ability to influence them on the next vote or 308 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: any of the subsequent ones that we've seen so far. 309 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: I talked to Ralph Norman, a congressman from South Carolina 310 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: about it yesterday. He said he was on a conference 311 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: call a couple of weeks ago with Trump and like 312 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: just doesn't see I I with him, and he said, basically, 313 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: this isn't Trump's fight. I respect the guy, but like 314 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: this is an internal house matter and I'm not listening 315 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: to a lot it. You saw Lauren Bobert go esterday 316 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: on the House floor and kind of shame Trump and say, look, look, 317 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: we're your friends, You're my favorite president. We should be 318 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: calling telling us to sit down and shut up, or 319 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: to knock it off. You should be calling Kevin McCarthy 320 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: and telling him to withdraw. So all these people. And 321 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: the thing is Trump has to kind of walk this 322 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: careful line because he needs this set of people in 323 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: the House. He needs these allies to be out there 324 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: for him as he seeks the presidency again. He can't 325 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: afford to alienate the House. Freedom carcass Well, and I 326 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: think he also sees that he's diminished. I mean it's 327 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: obviously frustrating, con deeply he's had. You know, he's been 328 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: out campaigning for president now, and I say campaigning for president. 329 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: By that, I mean he's been in more alago campaigning 330 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: for president for about six weeks now. You couldn't tell 331 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: that he's campaigning for president. The most newsworthy thing he's 332 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: done since the election was to have a meal with 333 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: Kanye West and the white supremacist Nick Flente, which did him. 334 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: I mean, everything has been going poorly for Donald Trump, 335 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: you know, arguably since the election, but certainly over the 336 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: last course of the last six weeks. And then you know, 337 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: he goes to show how cluentially can be on behalf 338 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: of McCarthy, just the opposite. So interesting, John Allen, thank you. 339 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: Will you please come back? I will come back any 340 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: time you wrest every time you w Yeah for New 341 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: Year's Best. Stacy Schiff is the author of the Revolutionary 342 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: Sam Adams Welcome Too Fast Politics. Stacy Chiff, thanks so much, mallam, 343 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: delighted to join you. Well, I'm so happy to have you. 344 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: And you know we don't have that many Pulitzer winners. 345 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: You have a lot of people with some pretty lens 346 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: or insights. However, right, but I wanted to talk to 347 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: you about your new book, which is called The Revolutionary 348 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: sam Adams. How did you get here and why did 349 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: you write this? And tell us how you got involved 350 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: with this. A couple of things came together. It was 351 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: if any explanation is required, I would start searching for 352 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: some kind of solid ground. I think, like many of us, 353 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: I was thinking a lot about what democracy was and 354 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: how we had got where we were. And in the 355 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 1: course of that I had realized that Samuel Adams made 356 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: a cameo in my Ben Franklin book, and I had 357 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: never really given him much thought, and went back to 358 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: read about him and was struck by how much his 359 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: contemporaries call him out as the man of the hour, 360 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: to a man may write him down as the most active, 361 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: the earliest, the most persevering man of the revolution, the 362 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: father of the revolution, and yet he has largely been 363 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: lost to us. So it was a large part that 364 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: sense of you know, how did we end up where 365 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: we are? How instrumental with this man? And then topping 366 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: that off was my was my sudden sort of realization 367 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: of my own ignorance in that we all know that 368 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: Paul Revere jumps on a horse in April of seventeen 369 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: seventy five, but I anyway had never really thought about 370 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: where he was going. And where he was going was 371 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: to warn Samuel Adams and John Hancock they were about 372 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: that they were about to be arrested or assess snated 373 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,719 Speaker 1: by British forces. And so it was sort of an 374 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: attempt to bail myself out of my own lack of 375 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: understanding that I finally fell down the Samuel Adams rabbit hole, 376 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: which is not an unhappy place to be during these years, right, 377 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: I mean, what did you learn? Well, you know, what 378 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: you learn very quickly is that he essentially writes what 379 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: you could today call the Bible of civil resistance theory. 380 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: I mean, this is ten years before the real shots 381 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: are fired, the ten years that precede seventeen seventy six, 382 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: or the twelve years, depending on how you count what 383 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: John Adams would refer to as the revolution in hearts 384 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: and minds. It's the revolution in thinking that precedes the 385 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 1: revolution in fighting. And what's surprising is, first of all, 386 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: the entire sea change that is affected in those years. 387 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: How messy and nonlinear. Those years are it really is 388 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: a protest movement. It precedes by fits and starts. And 389 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: how essential one person, and in fact, one fairly flawed 390 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: person can be in affecting that change of that's really interesting. 391 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: Why was he flawed? Well? I think that you could 392 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: say that the attributes that served him so well for 393 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: those dozen years basically to some degree turn against him. 394 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: He's undeviating, he's unwavering, his remarkably resolute, and proceeds with 395 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: a kind of sort of serene confidence in the essential 396 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: righteousness of his convictions. And that's all very true, and 397 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: that serves him beautifully and serves country beautifully. But after 398 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: the Revolution, when the country is being put back together, 399 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: those same attributes I think fail him. I think that 400 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: there is a rigidity, in a funny way in the 401 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: thinking that came in very handy when it was time 402 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: to upset the apple cart, and come in less handy 403 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: when it's time to establish a government. I mean, why 404 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: was he lost to history? He somewhat erases himself from 405 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: the record, and part of that is simply protection of 406 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: himself and his colleagues, given their seditious activities. John Adams 407 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,719 Speaker 1: leaves us this sort of horrible account of Samuel Adams 408 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: sitting in Philadelphia in front of his fire, feeding his 409 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: papers to the fire and Huntedham says to his cousin Samuel, 410 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: you know, don't you think you're maybe overreacting a little bit? 411 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: And Samuel Adams response that he doesn't want any of 412 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: their friends to suffer for his negligence. So there's really 413 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: enough tempt to make this, you know, the no fingerprints 414 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: school this, you know, this is treason at this at 415 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: this juncture, no name should be mentioned. It's very important 416 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: that that everyone that does be a collective responsibility, and 417 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: that and that no one particularly be able to be 418 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: singled out. So some extent he erases the record. He's 419 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 1: an extraordinarily modest man, and there is a sense that 420 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: he prefers to be in the wings Throughout much of 421 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: this history. He very much likes to promote people like 422 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: John Hancock who prefer the spotlight. And in the end, 423 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: as I said, he his popularity wanes, and he is 424 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: somewhat tired by criticism of his former colleagues after the Revolution, 425 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: and for those reasons as well as the fact that 426 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: he stood for a somewhat set of antiquated principles. I mean, 427 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: he really stands for a kind of purity and simplicity 428 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: as opposed to the more commercial, more opulent nation that 429 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: is kind of racing ahead of his somewhat antiquated ideals. 430 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: He's also not a federalist, so he really falls out 431 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: with um with much of the popular with much of 432 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: the popular feeling post revolution. But he is related to 433 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: two of the presidents, correct. He is actually the person 434 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: who will recruit John Adams, who's a little over a 435 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: decade younger than he, and in fact, John Adams is 436 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: first accounts of him. John Adams really leaves us some 437 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: of the best descriptions of Samuel Adams, and John is 438 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: utterly starstruck by his cousin. He goes on about his 439 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: and in a way that defies I think our standard 440 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: sense and so far as we have one of Samuel 441 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: Adams as this kind of hot headed, rabble rouser, John 442 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: is very clear about the fact that he's a man 443 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: of great affability, very decorous, very charming, much air udition, 444 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: as he puts it, exquisite humanity. He's a very prudent 445 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: thinker and a very calculated, shrewd tactician, but he's also 446 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: just an immensely sort of sweet and charming man. Like 447 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: are the people remembered by history the blowhards. I think 448 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: there's no question that history belongs not so much to 449 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: the blowhards as to the eloquent. Certainly, John Adams survives 450 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: as well as he does. I mean, obviously he's a 451 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: bit of immense accomplishment, right, but he's not a blowhard. 452 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: A lot a blowhard, right, but wrote the best letters. 453 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: And I think those of us who worked a lot 454 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: in the eighteenth century possibly overstate John Adams is roles 455 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: and things, rolling things because he's so eloquent. But yes, 456 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: I mean a really great way to go down in 457 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: history would be to grab the microphone. That won't surprise 458 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: any of us, right, yeah, I mean it's just interesting 459 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: because you think of the Adams is their their own 460 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 1: sort of weird self loathing. I always think of that family. 461 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: You know, there's that real sort of purit and modesty, 462 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: which doesn't come in handy when you want to be 463 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,239 Speaker 1: remembered by history. I mean I should add also that 464 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: much of Adams's work is work that he publishes under pseudonyms, 465 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,479 Speaker 1: and you know he's a master of propaganda in the press, 466 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: and he's writing under at least thirty, if not more, pseudonyms, 467 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: So that too, I think, contributes to it's difficult to 468 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: connect him sometimes to his work because pseudonymous writing was 469 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: the nature of editorial writing or political writing in the day. 470 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: It's very hard, therefore, to credit him with all of 471 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: his accomplishments. Interesting, so you think that there are things 472 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: we don't know. If you add up the pseudonyms that 473 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: other people have identified and ones that I've newly brought 474 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: to the table, you come to about thirty or thirty one. 475 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure that we're missing quite a few means. It's 476 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: difficult because he's often credited with pieces other people wrote, 477 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: incorrectly credited, and then other pieces are credited to to 478 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 1: other writers which may well have been his. You know, 479 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: I suspect if you really wanted to, you could feed 480 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: all of the Boston gazettes of those years through some 481 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: sort of a I and you could figure out where 482 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: we've we've lost him. But you know, you can see 483 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: points where he cribs from his own letters in pieces. 484 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: We know those articles are his. We know from other 485 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: people's notations in their in their copies of newspapers that 486 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: those articles are his, but I'm sure that there are 487 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: pieces that have alluded us. Still very interesting, what are 488 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: the lessons that we can learn from this? I think 489 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: the greatest run is how essential communication is. This is 490 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: someone who was able to really just clarify these very 491 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: large principles and somehow funnel them into this very convincing 492 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: editorial writing that he does. So there really is just 493 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: the sense of being able to sort of pull an 494 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: ambient concept out of the air and articulated in a 495 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: way that makes it that makes it almost irresistible. He's 496 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: able to do something which has a lot of residence today, 497 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 1: which is that he unites the elite, unites the well educated. 498 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: He holds two degrees from Harvard, but is as comfortable 499 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: in the streets with a bricklayer or or someone who 500 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: works on the wharves to unite the top and the bottom. 501 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: And that sense that the government was unresponsive, that government 502 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: was in the hands of a very tight oligarchy, is 503 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: something that he peddles and gets an enormous amount of 504 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: mileage on and uses as a demonstration close at hand 505 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,719 Speaker 1: of the tyranny abroad. I guess what I'm saying here 506 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: is that that sense of inequality and explosive inequality can 507 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: be is something that obviously we should be paying attention. 508 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: It's dangerous when inequality doesn't have its limits. He's really 509 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: reacting against a sort of feeling of disenfranchisement, a feeling 510 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: that government is unresponsive because it is in the hand 511 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: of these political dynasties. And I think that feels very 512 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: relevant today. It does. How should we sort of think 513 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: of him in this pantheon. I suppose that he's the 514 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: master communicator in the sense that he translates these concepts 515 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: more ably to the page and to a wider readership 516 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: than anyone else had done in years where questions of 517 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: independence were really nowhere on the radar, and is able 518 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: to capture the sense of resentment that people had. John 519 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: Adams tells us that when he and Samuel Adams meet 520 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 1: for the first time, which would have been in the 521 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: early seventeen sixties before the Stamp act Um, they're both 522 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: agreed that Thomas Hutchinson, then the Lieutenant Governor, poses a 523 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: greater threat to American liberties than any other man in existence. 524 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: So that sense that there is this elite who have 525 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: too much power in their hands, and that the government 526 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: has to be redistributed in some way is something with 527 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: which Adams is deeply dedicated. That's quite interesting. What are 528 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: you working out next? I have been unable to separate 529 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 1: myself from Samuel Adams, so I'm working another up ed 530 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: about him, and another aspect of the book that I 531 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: feel like I'd either like to go back and rewrite 532 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: or I'd like to expand upon. And since it's easier 533 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: to expand upon it than it is to go back 534 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: and rewrite it, That's what I'm working on for now. 535 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: How fantastic? Can I add one more answer to your question? Please? 536 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: Please please, when you ask about a modern parallel, Yeah, 537 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: I think the other piece to which we not paid 538 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: enough attention is that what there is this explosion of 539 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: media at the time, and Adams. Adams capitalizes on that 540 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: in a really almost unfathomably brilliant way. Suddenly there's this 541 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: explosion of newspapers. It will leave the crown officers in 542 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: Boston writhing. You know, how can you govern a town 543 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: with five newspapers, one of them says, And the fact 544 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: that you suddenly have papers which are being passed hand 545 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: to hand read by often nine tenths of the town 546 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: is which you can write in Boston and publish in Boston, 547 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: in New York and Philadelphia. A connection among the colonies 548 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: on which Adams is very intent from the beginning. You 549 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: suddenly have this ability to communicate from town to town 550 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: and from colony to colony. And it's really that effort 551 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: in which Adams is is hugely instrumental that makes the 552 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: revolution take off with the speed that it that it 553 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 1: finally takes off after the Boston tea party. That's really interesting. 554 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: You've written so many important biographies. I'm curious if you 555 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: look back, who are the characters that sort of stick 556 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: with you the most. I mean, which one is my 557 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,479 Speaker 1: favorite child? Wow? Yeah, I wasn't gonna ask that, but 558 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: you know, the ones they'd come back to you, or 559 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: like pieces of their lives come back to you. I 560 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: think that Ben Franklin gets the award for the subject 561 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: with which you cannot finish because he's so protean and 562 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: so much a modern man. And even even in writing 563 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: this book, I always sort of had Franklin at the 564 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: back of my mind because in many ways he's the 565 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: counter example to Samuel Adams. He's abroad for all of 566 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: these years, and in fact, in Samuel Adams's mind, Ben 567 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: Franklin is insufficient revolutionary during these years, because Franklin is 568 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: still intent on holding together with the British Empire. But 569 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: I think the answer would probably be Franklin. Technologically speaking, 570 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: he's so much a man of the future, and he 571 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: anticipates so much of the modern world and is a 572 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: master psychologist in much the way that Adams is, but 573 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: in a way that in the back of your mind, 574 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: you're watching something happen at the dinner table and you're thinking, 575 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: oh my god, Franklin, you know, had had an epigraph 576 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: about this, you know, years ago. So I think it's 577 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: Franklin probably carry around with me more tightly than anyone else. Oh, 578 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: that's really interesting. This was really interesting. Thank you so 579 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: much for joining us. It was a great delight. Thanks 580 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: so much. I know you, our dear listeners are very 581 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: busy and you don't have time to sort through the 582 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: hundreds of pieces of punitentry tweak, And this is why 583 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: every week I put together a newsletter of my five 584 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: favorite articles on politics. If you enjoy the podcast, you 585 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: will love having this in your inbox every Friday. So 586 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: sign up at Fast Politics pod dot com and cut 587 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: the tab to join our mailing list. That's Fast Politics 588 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: pod dot com. Barbara F. Walter is the author of 589 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: How Civil Wars Start and How To Stop Them. Welcome too, 590 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: Fast Politics, Barbara F. Walter. Thank you very much. It's 591 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: great to be here. We're so thrilled to have you. 592 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about the book How 593 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: Civil Wars Start, and I think a very important little 594 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: ending on this and how to Stop them. So how 595 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: do civil wars start? They generally actually start quite slowly. 596 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: Um usually it's started by a handful of people. They're 597 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: they're almost always extremists. They're operating on the fringe of society. 598 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: It takes some years to get off the ground. And 599 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: while they're doing this, the rest of the country is 600 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: going about their business. They're not thinking about it, they're 601 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: not concentrating on it. And then it's usually a series 602 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: of events that allows these tiny movements to grow. One 603 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: of them can be if it's in a in a 604 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,239 Speaker 1: democracy or kind of a partial democracy, it could be 605 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: the loss of a series of elections. So you start 606 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: to get people who had been sort of more moderate 607 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: becoming more dissatisfied, and then these radicals start to they 608 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: start to listen to these radicals. Another way these movements 609 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: tend to grow is if there's some events. It's usually 610 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: a protest, and the police or the government goes in 611 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: and overreacts and reacts to the protesters really harshly. This 612 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: could have happened on January six. You know, people talk 613 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: about the Capitol police and how they didn't do anything 614 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: on January six, and they and they talk about this 615 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: as a criticism. But for somebody who studies how these 616 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: movements grow, I actually think that was a gift to 617 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: the American people because had they responded, and especially if 618 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: they had responded harshly, all of those insurrectionists with their 619 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: camera would have caught this on tape. They would have 620 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: crafted a narrative around how the federal government is overreaching, 621 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: how they're how they they hate patriots, and and it's 622 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: those situations that also allow these movements to grow. That's 623 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: a pretty interesting idea, right there. I want to talk 624 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: to you about that. So you think it's sort of 625 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: like the Archduke fer Nan, right, is that the kind 626 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: of way that happens. Well, that was the trigger for 627 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: World War one. Nobody's ever asked me that quick. Sorry, 628 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: does it like the archduke Curtain? And that's a little 629 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: bit of a stretch, But you know, the idea that 630 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: there's violence that then creates a kind of it's interesting, 631 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: So is that sort of the is that really you 632 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: feel like largely the catalyst for civil wars. Here's the 633 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: challenge that these extremists, these radicals on the fringe have 634 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: in the early parts of a movement. They are more 635 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: radical than most people in a country. In fact, they're 636 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: more radical even amongst their own population. Every country has 637 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: people who are, you know, more passionate about an issue 638 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: or they're willing to fight for something, and people kind 639 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: of look at them and nod their heads and they say, 640 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, they're kind of crazy. We're going to 641 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: ignore them. But these extremists are constantly talking to the moderates, 642 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,479 Speaker 1: telling the moderates listen, the government's really bad. You need 643 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: to pay attention, we need to do something about this. 644 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: The country is going in the wrong direction. And again, 645 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: moderates tend to ignore them. So extremists, if they're going 646 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: to grow the movement, and that's really hard if they 647 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: want to, if they want to become something more than 648 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: just a handful of these guys. They have to somehow 649 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: convince the moderates that what they're saying is true. And 650 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: and one of the things that they do is they 651 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: try to provoke a really strong government reaction to something. 652 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: And if the government comes into their neighborhoods or the 653 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: government starts bashing heads, then this, in some respects provides 654 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: this evidence to moderate it's that what the extremists have 655 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: been saying is true. Now, let me give you an example. 656 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: The Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland had been unhappy with 657 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: being under British rule forever, since the nineteen twenties. They 658 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: peacefully protested in the twenties, the peacefully in the thirties, forties, 659 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: the fifties, the sixties. They weren't getting anywhere, and yet 660 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: they continued to sort of try to work within the 661 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: existing regime. The IRA had been around for most of 662 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: that time, and they kept telling Irish Catholics peaceful protests 663 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: is going to get you nowhere. We need to shift 664 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: to a violent strategy. And Irish Catholics just wouldn't do it. 665 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: You know. The IRA was saying, the British government really 666 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 1: was never gonna let them be treated well. They were 667 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: always going to allow Protestants in Northern Ireland to run 668 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: the show um and and that's just the way it 669 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: was going to be, and the Irish Catholics didn't believe it. 670 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 1: So when Protestants started to get more aggressive about protesters, 671 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: wh they started going into their neighborhoods and started hitting 672 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: innocent civilians with their batons, the British government did send 673 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: British soldiers to Northern Ireland, and the Irish Catholics were thrilled. 674 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 1: They're like, finally, finally the government's paying attention. They can 675 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: see how undemocratic this is, they can see how poorly 676 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: treated we are. They're coming here to help us. And 677 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: there was this enormous hope that things were going to 678 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: change and that they were going to be proven right 679 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: and the IRA was going to be proven wrong. And instead, 680 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 1: the British soldiers came in and they started to use 681 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 1: um counterinsurgency tactics against the Irish Catholics, going door to door, 682 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: house to house, dragging men out of their homes and 683 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 1: throwing them into prison without trial. And suddenly this radicalized 684 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: the population. Suddenly they saw that in fact, what the 685 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 1: more radical elements of their of their population were staying 686 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: was true. The IRA now suddenly had the evidence that 687 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,439 Speaker 1: the IRA was was saying was true. And you saw 688 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: a certain portion of just average Irish Catholics support the 689 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 1: IRA and and that's when you started to see violence expand. Oh, 690 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: that's really really interesting. So tell us a little bit 691 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: about how one stops a civil war, because that, I 692 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: think is an anxiety that many of us have. Though 693 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: I think some of us feel a little better after 694 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: these mid terms, and by some of us, I mean me. 695 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: So we actually know the two conditions that really are 696 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: are very predictive of a country experiencing a civil war. 697 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: The first is whether it's an innocracy, and that's just 698 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,919 Speaker 1: a fancy term for a partial democracy. It turns out 699 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: that full, healthy democracies, places like Denmark and Switzerland and 700 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: Canada almost never experienced civil wars. It also turns out 701 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: that full autie prossees the North Korea's, the Saudi Arabia's, 702 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: the bar Rains of the world, um, they also rarely 703 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: experienced civil war. The violence tends to happen in this 704 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: middle zone, where democratic institutions are weak. They're often in transition, 705 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: you have lots of instability. These are the times when 706 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 1: individuals and groups who want to try to grab power, 707 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,439 Speaker 1: they take advantage of those times, and you know, oftentimes 708 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: they'll they'll use violence to try to gain control. Where 709 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: we are as a country as the most dangerous. Where 710 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: we were in December of right, Yeah, when Trump was leader. 711 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,439 Speaker 1: It since improved, and there are lots of people who 712 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 1: had a big sigh of relief when when Trump left office. 713 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 1: There were lots of us who were really happy with 714 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: the mid terms and we kind of feel like, Okay, 715 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: we're on more stable ground and in some respects we are. Yes, 716 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: Trump left office, that's a really good thing. January six failed, 717 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: that's a really good thing. Lots mores, especially young voters, 718 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: went out to vote and and and all of these 719 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: election deniers who tried to gain office, many of them 720 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,879 Speaker 1: were unsuccessful. But the reality is that our institutions are 721 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: democratic institutions that have been weakening since nothing has changed there. 722 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: The Democrats have been trying to initiate certain reforms, but 723 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: they don't have the votes for it, and Republicans have 724 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: no interest in reform because as long as they continue 725 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: to play to a predominantly aging white evangelical Christian base, 726 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: which is a demographic that's declining faster than any other 727 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: demographic here in the United States. As long as they 728 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: continue to play to that base, they can't win elections. 729 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: If we are truly a full and equal democracy, that's 730 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: really quite interesting. So anyway, so go back to what 731 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: we can do to get out of it. If an 732 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 1: ocracy partial democracy and oh and I didn't I didn't 733 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: talk about the secon In fact, for the second factor 734 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: that is a big risk factor for civil war is 735 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: whether a country is a partial democracy and its political 736 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: parties are based on identity, if it's political parties are 737 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: predominantly based on race, religion, or ethnicity as opposed to 738 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: political ideology. So if you think about Yugoslavia after the 739 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: fall of the Soviet Union, when Yugoslavia attempted to democratize rapidly, um, 740 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: one of the things that that these ethnic entrepreneurs within 741 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: the Serb and the crow Up community did is they 742 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,240 Speaker 1: quickly started to build political parties, not over any issue 743 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: like are you a conservative or a liberal, or communist 744 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: or a capitalist, but whether you were ethnically Serb or 745 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 1: ethnically crow Up. When you have countries that start to 746 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 1: do this, those are also the countries that that tend 747 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: to have a much higher risk of civil war. So 748 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: if these are the two conditions inn ocracy and and 749 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: these ethnically based parties, then you know that gives us 750 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: two things that we can do. If we strengthen America's democracy. 751 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: If we get rid of these undemocratic features like the 752 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:13,399 Speaker 1: filibuster and jerrymandering, if we reform perhaps the Senate, if 753 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: we create an independent election commission to run our elections 754 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 1: instead of putting it in the hands of party leaders. 755 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: All of these things would make our democracy stronger. And again, 756 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: stronger democracies don't experience civil war. And if we if 757 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: our political parties, both of them, both Republicans and the Democrats, 758 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: were willing to reach across racial, ethnic and religious lines, 759 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 1: that would go a long way. The problem is is 760 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 1: that we're not seeing really either of those patterns happening. 761 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 1: And so you know, usually people ask me, Okay, if 762 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: those are hard to do, if those solutions are not 763 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: likely to be implemented in the near term, what can 764 00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 1: we do now? And and my answer is is actually 765 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: that the simplest thing that we can do now the 766 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: biggest bang for our buck will come from a regulating 767 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 1: social media. The five biggest tech companies in the world 768 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: are all US companies, and one of the things that 769 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 1: we're beginning to find out is that the algorithms that 770 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:23,919 Speaker 1: they've developed to keep people engaged with content are disproportionately 771 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: pushing out the most incendiary material, information that tends to 772 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 1: make people feel threatened and scared and insecure and angry. 773 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: They're selecting out the more extreme material and they're pushing 774 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: it out there. One of the effects that's having is 775 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 1: not only to increasingly polarize the population, but to increasingly 776 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: fomen ethnic nationalism, ethnic hatred. And again, if here we 777 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: have an industry and a media outlet, the only media 778 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: outlets that are not regulated, we are increasingly seeing that 779 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: they have all sorts of negative societal effects, and to 780 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: date we've done nothing about it. I want to talk 781 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: for a minute about Elon Musk, because right now as 782 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 1: we tape this, we have Richard Spencer, the Nazis whole 783 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 1: is hosting a space on Twitter. What do you think 784 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: the consequences of this kind of free speech absolutism. This 785 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: is the most generous way to describe what he's doing 786 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: probably too generous. Explain to us what you think the 787 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,919 Speaker 1: problem here is. I'm going to say something provocative, which 788 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,879 Speaker 1: is I'm less concerned about a neo Nazi going on 789 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,719 Speaker 1: Twitter and writing things are being interviewed, then I am 790 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: about the algorithms that are going to take those interviews 791 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: or take those tweets and push it out to tens 792 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,440 Speaker 1: of millions of Twitter followers. And I think this is 793 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: something that most people don't understand. The tech companies that 794 00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: run these social media platforms, their business model is to 795 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,840 Speaker 1: maximize profits, and they maximize profits by keeping people engaged 796 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: on their platforms as long as possible. And they've brought 797 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: in all sorts of social psychologists, They've run all sorts 798 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: of experiments on groups of people to try to figure 799 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: out what keeps people on their devices the longest. And 800 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: and they have discovered that we human beings, because we 801 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,240 Speaker 1: have these sort of you know, old limb big brains 802 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: that have allowed us to survive this long. Those limbig 803 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: brains are very very attuned to anything that could possibly 804 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: be a threat to us. And so when we're in 805 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: you know, a sea of information, our brains will select 806 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: out the more negative material, the material that that makes 807 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 1: us feel like we we might have to trigger our 808 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: fight or flight response. And it's not the rainbows and butterflies. 809 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: It's not the positive messages, it's not the calming messages. 810 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,480 Speaker 1: And so if if you're Elon Musk or if you're 811 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg and you basically want people on their phones 812 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 1: or on their laptops as long as possible, you're going 813 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,720 Speaker 1: to design your algorithms to pick out this type of material, 814 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: whether it's true or not, and in fact, whether it 815 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 1: has really bad implications for anxiety and depression and teenage 816 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: girls or political violence. And that's exactly what's happening now, 817 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: and it's allowed to happen because there's absolutely no regulation. 818 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 1: So you know, have this guy Spencer on Twitter, I 819 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: don't care. If algorithms didn't exist, you would actually have 820 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 1: to search to find him. It would be work to 821 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: find him, right, all right, that's a good point instead 822 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: of just going to your Twitter feed and boom, seeing 823 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 1: it right there on top and then scrolling down and 824 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,800 Speaker 1: if it's a really popular interview, then seeing it again 825 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: and again and again. Right, that's a good point. And 826 00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: you're doing absolutely nothing to find that it's being pushed 827 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 1: to you. You know, it's the same thing. You know, Amazon, 828 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: you know they've been tweaking this. But but the bible 829 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,920 Speaker 1: of the far right is this book called the Turner Diaries. 830 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 1: It's a fictitious account of a civil war in the 831 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 1: United States, essentially a race based war by white supremacists 832 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,359 Speaker 1: to take over the federal government. But it's really a 833 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: primer on and how you would launch a war against 834 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,279 Speaker 1: a powerful government like the United States. Tynothy McVeigh at 835 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,720 Speaker 1: pages of the Turner Diaries in in his pickup truck 836 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 1: when he bombed the Federal Building Oklahoma City. And if 837 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: you look at videos of January six, one of the 838 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: Proud Boys was was holding up the book when he 839 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: was being interviewed by a journalist and saying, you need 840 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 1: to read this book. The book talks about how you 841 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 1: would attack FBI headquarters. It talks about how you would 842 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: attack the US capital. It talks about how you would 843 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,479 Speaker 1: put up a gallows outside the capital so that when 844 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 1: you arrest quote unquote arrest traitorous government officials, you could 845 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,799 Speaker 1: put them on trial for treason and then hang them 846 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 1: up on a gallows. It's all there. So in December. 847 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,360 Speaker 1: I went to Amazon to to purchase The Turner Diaries, 848 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: and when I purchased it, it'll you know how Amazon recommends, 849 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 1: if you like this book, you'll like all these other books. Well, 850 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,240 Speaker 1: it was. It was a who's who of white supremacy mysterial. 851 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: You could buy mind comp by Hitler. You could buy 852 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 1: deeply anti semitic books. You could buy I mean, the 853 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:30,800 Speaker 1: whole cornucopia of awful material. Now, Amazon, to its credit, 854 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 1: right after January six, took The Turner Diaries off its website. 855 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 1: You want to purchase it there. I wasn't looking for 856 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: ten additional books to tell me how how to wage, 857 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,400 Speaker 1: you know, white supremacy here in the United States. It 858 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:50,800 Speaker 1: was pushed into my feed and that's the danger of algorithm. Jesus, Barbara, 859 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: thank you so much. I hope he'll come back. I 860 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 1: would love to Molly and thank you for being interested, 861 00:46:55,560 --> 00:47:00,319 Speaker 1: and thank you for everything you're doing. That that's it 862 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,080 Speaker 1: for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, 863 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday to your the best minds in politics 864 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,279 Speaker 1: makes sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what 865 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 1: you've heard, please send it to a friend and keep 866 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 1: the conversation going, and again thanks for listening.