WEBVTT - Changing Minds (with Maya Shankar and Frank Luntz) 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:10.160 Hi, I'm Chelsea Clinton, and this is in fact, a 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:13.319 podcast about why public health matters even when we're not 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:16.799 in a pandemic. Today we're talking about what works and 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.520 what doesn't when it comes to helping people have good 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.680 information to make good decisions for their health, even when 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.000 they may need to change their behavior or their minds. 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:29.120 Throughout this pandemic, we've seen the impact individual decisions can 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:32.160 have on our collective health, whether it's wearing masks, practicing 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:36.000 social distancing, or getting vaccinated. But getting people to do 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:41.440 those things requires effective messaging and effective trusted messengers. Today, 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:43.720 I'm talking with two people who have spent years figuring 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:46.199 out what it takes to spark widespread change in actions 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:51.280 and attitudes. Later we'll hear from Polster author, political strategists 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.520 and communications consultant Frank Lentz, But first I'm talking with 0:00:55.560 --> 0:01:00.760 behavioral economist Maya Shankar. Maya has spent year studying why 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.920 people do what we do and how to encourage positive 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.960 changes that can have huge results. She's currently Google's Global 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.480 director of Behavioral Economics, which I hope to talk to 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:14.040 about in a future episode. For today's conversation, we're focused 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:16.600 on her time as senior advisor in the Obama administration, 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.080 where she founded and served as chair of the White 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.880 House's Behavioral Science Team, a group of scientists studying the 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:26.520 intersection between human behavior and public policy and using that 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.120 science to help motivate people to make choices to improve 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:33.400 their health and their lives. Maya. I'm so thrilled to 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:35.840 welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being with us today. 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.880 And I think maybe we'll start with your story, if 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.560 that's okay, because I know that you originally trained and 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.320 I think thought you were going to become a classical 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.480 violinist and yet now are a cognitive scientist. How did 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.800 that happen and what sparked your interest in the field originally. 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:55.600 I think if you had told me as a child, 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:57.560 one day you'll be studying the mind, I would have 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.400 been like, you're crazy. I'm a violinist. Yeah. When I 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.279 was six, I started playing the violin and it became 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.840 serious very quickly. So when I was nine, I started 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.880 studying at Juilliard every weekend, and then when I was 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.240 in my teens, it's like Pearlman asked me to be 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.280 his private violence student, and that really accelerated things for me. 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:17.240 And I for anyone who may not know who it's 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:19.639 like Pelman is, explain why that was such a big deal. 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.320 So he's like arguably the best violinist in the world. 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.120 I still get tinkles saying that he was my teacher. 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:29.040 But yeah, it was just such an amazing period of 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.280 my life. And then I had a hand injury suddenly 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.480 one day, and unfortunately, doctors told me at that point 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:37.440 that I could never play the violin again. So I 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.359 kind of went from like this peak interest and passion 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:43.800 to being told you have to pivot. Oh, I'm so sorry. 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.880 I can't imagine how devastating that was, especially given where 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:49.680 you were at that point in time and in your 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:54.200 study and your dreams for yourself, and yet you imagined 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:58.120 a different future. Yeah, so I was pretty lost, and 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:00.920 I didn't know what it was that I could be 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:04.680 passionate about again. But fortunately for me, the summer before college, 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:08.000 I stumbled upon a book on how the mind works, 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:12.040 and it basically detailed the remarkable abilities that our minds 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.920 have to process language. So this book was on language acquisition, 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:19.120 and I remember thinking, oh, my gosh, this is amazing, 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:23.519 Like I have taken my ability to process language speak language, 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.840 comprehend it for granted my entire life, and it's actually 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:31.200 the result of really sophisticated cognitive processing and every thinking. 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:34.720 If this is what underlies language, like what underlies even 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:38.360 higher level stuff like doing complex math, or thinking about 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.720 deep philosophical questions, or analyzing the cost benefit of a 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.480 public health policy, or falling in love. And I just 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:48.200 in that moment, I just became so captivated by the 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.480 inner workings of the mind. And so that began a 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:54.520 decades long journey to study the mind. So I got 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:58.760 my PhD and post doc in cognitive psychology and neuroscience 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:02.880 and basically have been studying how and why we make decisions, 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:05.920 as well as how we develop our attitudes and beliefs 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:08.800 about the world. And the reason why I believe this 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.760 body of research is so important is that one of 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.200 the things behavioral science teaches us is that there are 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:19.040 many surprising factors that influence our behaviors, factors we might 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:22.240 not even be consciously aware of. Before you were in Google, 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.160 you were at the White House and the Obama administration, 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:28.039 and you helped create the White House Social and Behavioral 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:32.920 Sciences Team, which kind of colloquially has been touched, has 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.880 been touched, has been has been dubbed the nudge unit. Um. 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:38.960 I don't know what that says about my language acquisition, 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:43.320 but could you talk about what maybe some of the 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:45.200 work you did while you were at the White House 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.120 led to any changes at the federal level on how 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.960 we might nudge to help people make better decisions for themselves. Yeah. 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:54.320 So one project we worked on was with the Department 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:58.760 of Veterans Affairs, and we were trying to boost enrollment 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:02.120 in a benefits program m that veterans could take advantage 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.560 of upon returning to this country. And the reason the 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.640 government offered this program is that assimilating back to civilian 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.240 life can be a very challenging transition, and we wanted 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.400 to do everything we could to aid the transition right, 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:17.400 to open up job opportunities, higher education, etcetera, etcetera. And 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.039 so the v A was seeing, oh, man, you know, 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:23.200 we're offering this program, but participation rates are low. What 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.919 can we do about it? Especially in a resource constrained 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:28.960 environment where we don't have a ton of dollars to 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:30.840 throw at this, But we really want to make sure 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:33.440 that veterans are getting the best experience they can. So 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:35.400 they came to us and they said, we just have 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:37.719 this one email to work with, Please do what you 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.640 can to it. We ended up changing just one line 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.200 in the email message. Instead of telling veterans that they 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.640 were eligible for the program, we simply reminded them that 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.560 they had earned it through their years of service. And 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.799 that one word tweak led to a nine percent increase 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:56.080 in participation in the program and access to the program, 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.560 which is many, many thousands of people. It's a lot 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.200 of veterans. What this owed us, and the principle that 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.320 it was based on is a version of what's called 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.479 the endowment effect, which says that we value things more 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.040 when we feel we own them, or in this case, 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.120 have earned them, and that we have something to lose 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.680 by not taking advantage of them. Another quick example of 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:16.400 some of the work we did at the White House 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:21.040 had to do with going to college. Every year of 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:24.880 college accepted high school grads who are from urban districts 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:28.160 failed to matriculate in college in the fall because they 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:32.400 haven't completed required tasks like filling out a course enrollment 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:36.080 form or taking a placement test. And this is tragic, right, Chelsea, 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.800 because these are kids who have already overcome all the 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.599 barriers along the way when it comes to applying to 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:44.839 college and then even getting in, and yet they don't 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.760 end up matriculating in the fall. So this phenomenon is 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:51.560 known as summer melts. And what behavioral science shows us 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:56.000 is that we reliably underestimate the kinds of small barriers 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:58.640 that can deter people from achieving their long term goal. 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:01.200 What we found from our inventions while at the White 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:05.039 House was that sending students just eight text messages over 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.400 the summer that reminded them to complete these tasks boosted 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:12.120 college enrollment by nine and so again like a really 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.800 low cost intervention, but it was a game changer for 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.080 these students. And like, I don't know these days, what 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.720 we send eight text messages within ten minutes in our 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.200 daily in our daily lives, that could make the difference 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.240 between a kid going to college or not going to college. 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.480 Do you know if that program continued under the Trump administration. 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:32.080 It's a good question. Um, not sure in this case. 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:34.880 But what I did try to do when designing the 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:37.800 behavioral science team within the White House was to build 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.440 it in a very bipartisan part of government because I 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:43.840 just felt like what we're promoting here is not a 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:47.360 partisan agenda. We're just trying to make government programs smarter, 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:51.240 make sure that they actually achieve their policy objectives. And 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.000 so we built the team in part of the government 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.400 again that's relatively bipartisan. It's called the General Services Administration, 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.600 which meant that even though I disbanded the White House 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.320 component of the team when I left the agency, components 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.560 of the team still persistent and we're still working on 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:11.040 really amazing programs. I'm just incredibly curious now, having listened 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.880 to your reflections on your time in government, what you 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.000 think over the last fifteen months, when so much has 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.680 been made partisan and political that really shouldn't have been 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.320 when it comes to COVID, I think what's really important 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:30.280 for people to understand is that there are obviously many 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:34.920 underlying causes for why people fall prey to misinformation or 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:37.840 labor under false beliefs, and it's really important to understand 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:41.200 the psychology underlying each of these causes because then we 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:44.280 can design tailored solutions. We can't use a blunt instruments 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:45.920 to solve all of the problems. So if we can 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.640 really with this like fine point, figure out, Okay, what 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:52.360 is the psychology leading to X non ideal outcome or 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:54.480 why non ideal outcome that we can really try and 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:58.400 solve it. So, behavioral economics has shed light on several 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:02.400 of these and has served up some potentially very powerful solutions. 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:04.959 So the first one has to do with a framework 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.160 called cultural cognition, and this is work done by Dan 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.520 Kahan and others. He's a professor at Yale Law School. Basically, 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.199 what this theory says is, look, we all know that 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:18.360 people can disagree strongly, even on empirical matters, things that 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:20.199 you and I are like, Okay, these are just the facts. 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:23.800 Is climate change real? Does gun control regulation lead to 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:26.600 fewer deaths? Right? It's like yes and yes, And so 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.199 it's tempting to think that in order to persuade people 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.560 of something, we just need to give them more facts. 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:34.800 It's just an information gap problem, right. If we can 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.360 just give them more information, we can solve the problem. 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:40.920 But I think many of us see in our everyday 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:44.520 lives that this doesn't always work. Right, Like the proverbial 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.920 Thanksgiving dinner where you're sitting across from your relative and 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:52.120 they're absolutely convinced that COVID is not real and giving them. 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.600 More evidence just doesn't seem to work, and that's because 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.880 we may be failing to appreciate a key piece of 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:02.120 the puzzle, and that's that we don't just form our 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.720 beliefs from facts. We form our beliefs partly based on 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.680 our group identities and the values that group has. There's 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.120 this really illustrative example, a classic study from the fifties 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.360 about sports team loyalty that I think highlights this really well. 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:20.199 So in this study, fans of opposing teams were shown 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:24.280 footage of controversial referee calls from a football game. Okay, 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:28.600 and even though these people were watching exactly the same footage, 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:32.360 they arrived at very different conclusions about the referee calls 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.079 based on their loyalty to their sports team. So they 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.720 tended to think that calls were unfair towards their team, 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:42.520 but not the opposing team. So what this study illustrates 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:46.680 is that there are internal group allegiances are literally shaping 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.240 their their views of reality. So how does this relate 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.679 to COVID. What it shows us is that people's beliefs 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:55.600 about COVID may in fact be serving as a deep 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.720 reflection of their values and their group membership. Some of 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.079 us think it's just if he's of cloth, wear a 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.840 mask for God's sake. But for many people, wearing a 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:08.560 mask or getting vaccinated or social distancing can carry huge 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:13.040 symbolic significance. They feel in some way that it threatens 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.360 their group membership. It's not this like thoughtful cost benefit 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.079 analysis of the inconvenience of wearing a mask versus the 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:21.480 risk of getting a virus, and it is profound meaning 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:25.319 within their social networks. And I think, unfortunately, so much 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:28.240 of what we've seen over the last many months now 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.280 of COVID our efforts from people who think they're doing 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.840 the right thing too by not only heaping more evidence, 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:38.839 but also often shouting at people or shaming or attempting 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.640 to shame people. And we know that doesn't work. It 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.720 never works. How do you think we can all just 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:48.720 be more aware of those different identities that we carry 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:52.079 within ourselves so that we may better understand how they 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:56.880 influence our behavior and sometimes in ways that our counter 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:01.320 to what we think we're doing. You are one million 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:06.400 percent right shouting, being antagonistic, undermining people's values. This stuff 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.480 doesn't work. While it feels good, we're like fulfilling some 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:11.680 sort of deep emotional need to just get it out. 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.640 It's not effective. Okay, So here's the good news. Behavioral 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.120 economics helps us to identify part of this problem, but 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:20.800 then it also offers up some solutions. One of my 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:24.640 favorite bodies of research that's emerging, it's really fresh, is 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.960 called moral reframing, and it's the idea that when we 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:33.559 ground our arguments in moral terms that affirm, rather than 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.760 threaten the moral values of those we disagree with, it's 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:40.120 far more effective at helping them change their views. So, 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:42.520 to give you a concrete example, if you're trying to 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:45.920 convince conservatives to care more about the environment, you might 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:50.719 appeal to values that conservatives tend to hold, for example, patriotism. 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.760 There's research showing that like a frame such as being 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:57.800 pro environmental allows us to protect and preserve the American 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.160 way of life. It is patriotic to conserve this beautiful 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:05.480 country's natural resources, which by I also agree with, Yeah, 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.560 I completely agree with exactly. So this framing, which is 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:13.000 holding their values constant, but is saying that they can 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:17.520 achieve progress on those values through climate change reform, is 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:21.600 a very effective way of getting folks to change their minds. 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.360 And it's really funny. So I'm I'm interviewing folks for 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.199 this new podcast that I'm coming out with, which is 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.559 all about change, and one of the people that I interviewed, 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.360 she's a woman named Megan Phelps Roper. She grew up 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.040 in this, you know, absolutely vile hate group. It was 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.080 a religious cult called the Westboro Baptist Church. Oh, I'm 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:41.760 very familiar with the Westboro Baptist Church. It's super venomous. 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.920 And what was fascinating about Megan's story is that she 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.960 was a true believer in her life. She was born 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.840 into the church, her grandfather founded it. When she graduated 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.360 from college, she became one of the church's most vocal supporters. 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.680 And it was only when people engaged with her in 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:02.079 the way that I just described, using these moral reframing techniques, 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.800 that it started to make a dent. That it created 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:08.480 a crack in her ideology that ultimately led her to 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.920 realize that everything she had ever believed was wrong and 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:15.360 that she needed to challenge her own views. But importantly, again, 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:20.240 they didn't tell her, Megan, your views are absolutely completely insane. 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:23.440 They said, Okay, I'm going to take your values as fixed, 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.840 but I'm going to show you through these reframing techniques 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:29.160 why you might want to think about them differently. And 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.680 that was very powerful for her. And I always think, wow, 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.960 if you could take someone who had such an extremist 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.240 ideology and use this kind of technique, how powerful is that? 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:39.200 And the other thing Chelsea I wanted to mention is 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.800 we really need to be thoughtful about who the messenger 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.960 is when communicating some of these public health messages. We 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:50.040 know that people are far more receptive to evidence that 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.400 challenges their existing views when it's coming from a member 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:56.840 of their own community. And importantly that expert bodies, so 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:01.200 public health officials are far more persuasive when they comprise 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.680 a diverse group of people that exist somewhere across this 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.720 political spectrum. I'm really curious, Maya, whether we're talking about 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:13.360 moral reframing or nudge theory, or the broader ecosystem of 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:17.840 everything under behavioral economics, how do people feel if they're 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:21.640 aware of kind of the different ways that the government, 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.480 from your job when you were at the White House, 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.360 or private companies like Google where you are now, how 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.080 do people feel like they're not being manipulated? My belief 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.960 always is that everybody should know they're being nudged, because 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.440 even nudges that are completely transparent are effective. Can you 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.120 give an example of that. Absolutely, So this actually relates 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.680 to the opiate epidemic. This is one of my favorite interventions. 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:49.160 So it's a complicated problem, many underlying causes, but behavioral 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:53.040 science does tell us about one of the causes, and 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.320 it has the benefit of being again highly transparent, very 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.840 low cost, and relatively easy to implement. Okay, let's think 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:02.960 of about that moment in the doctor's office. When the 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.480 doctor is first prescribing an opioid prescription for a patient. 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:10.080 They're typically using some sort of software, and that software 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.680 includes a default number, a preset number of pills to 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:17.760 prescribe to the patient. What researchers found is that when 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:21.480 they lowered this default number from thirty pills to twelve 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:26.520 pills in the system, it decreased opioid prescriptions by across 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.320 an entire health system. So in this case, like the 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:33.120 researchers aren't pretending they're trying to fool the doctor, right, 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.560 the number has changed in the system, and doctors are 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:38.360 very mindful of the fact that this number has changed. 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.200 But it is a really healthy nudge to make doctors 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.920 slightly more thoughtful about just recommending the default number in 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:49.040 there and trying to engage in some degree of critical 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:51.280 thinking in order to make sure that they're they're giving 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.280 the right amount. I always think of nudges as being 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:57.520 the sort of thing that help people who already have 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.280 this goal but are facing obstacles or barriers to get 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.040 over the finish line. But it's just not powerful enough 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.720 a tool or an instrument to actually convince people to 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:10.800 do things that they don't already want to do. We'll 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:24.560 be right back. Stay with us why I was just just 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.600 going to ask, because we've now talked so much about nudges, 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:31.520 and if you could just provide maybe a coherent definition 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.720 of what a nudge is and what nudge theory is. Yeah. So, 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:39.119 behavioral economics teaches us that there are these very surprising 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:44.159 factors that influence our behaviors, and a nudge is a 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.840 design tweak that we might see in any given policy 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:51.119 or program that reflects this understanding of the science of 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:53.480 human behavior. One of my favorite examples, because this is 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.120 an example that motivated me to go join the government 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.679 in the first place, was in the domain of school lunches. Basically, 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.800 the federal government has a program that offers millions of 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.440 low income kids access to free or reduced price lunches 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.560 at school. What we are finding is that even though 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.360 we are offering this program, millions of kids were still 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.080 going hungry every single day at school. It was a 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.840 tragedy because the programs being offered, but parents aren't signing up. 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.840 So we try to figure out, Okay, what are the 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.480 behavioral factors that are underlying this lack of participation, and 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.720 then how can we design a nudge that in turn 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.000 helps solve it. And what we realize when we do 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:33.639 this behavioral analysis is that one, parents aren't signing up 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.359 because the application process is extremely burdensome. There's a single 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.720 mom who's working three jobs to make ends meet, and 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.399 then we're asking her to fill out this application form. 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.440 It's requiring that she references old tax documents and there's 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:47.600 a huge penalty if she gets one of these pieces 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.560 of information wrong, and so we're setting her up for failure. 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.840 And that's one barrier. Another barrier is stigma. So I 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:56.520 remember when I was at the White House, I spoke 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.520 with principles from different schools, like, for example, this one 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:03.040 principle in Florida, who said, these folks work really hard, 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.080 and the idea of actively signing their kids up for 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.879 a public benefits program it's just a really hard thing 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.680 for them to swallow. They don't like the stigma associated 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.639 with having their kids rely on the government. So what 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:18.040 the government did is utilize a nudge, which is an 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:22.359 understanding that when something is the default option, when kids 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:26.120 are automatically enrolled in a program, and parents only need 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.000 to take an active step to unenrolled their kids, it's 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:31.960 can significantly boost participation rates. So what we did is 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.440 we are What the government did is it realized, hey, 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.840 we we actually already have a bunch of data around 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:42.000 these kids eligibility criteria because they're enrolled in things like 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:45.560 Medicaid or women's and children's programs. We can use that 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:50.000 data to automatically enroll eligible kids. So now as a default, 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.280 all these kids are now getting access to school lunch, 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:54.800 and like I said earlier, parents only need to take 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:57.600 an affirmative step that they actively want to unenroll their kids. 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.520 And as a result of this nudge, Chelsea like twelve 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.480 and a half million more kids were now eating lunch 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:06.400 at school every day. So my we've talked a lot 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:10.359 about where nudges have worked. Can you talk about where 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:12.919 either you or others in your field have had a 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:16.400 lot of hope about a nudge having a similarly powerful 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:20.920 impact and then it just not working. One place where 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:25.160 I really see the limitations of nudges and behavioral sciences 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.040 in the domain of changing your mind. I think nudges 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:31.240 are very effective when a person has already decided that 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.960 they want to do something that maybe the long term 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.879 goals and their short term costs create some sort of tension. 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:38.520 It's like, oh, I know I want to eat healthier, 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:40.479 I know I want to exercise, but it's just so 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:42.760 painful right now, and I'd rather watch TV and eat 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.600 the ritos. And so nudges can be really effective at 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:47.840 helping to bridge that gap. They have an intention to 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:50.719 do something and you can translate it into action. There 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.080 are a lot less effective when it comes to changing 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:57.639 people's fundamental beliefs about the world, their actual attitudes, the 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:00.960 opinions that they've made up over time. So, as you mentioned, 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:03.399 I mean think your instincts are totally right. That yelling 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:06.200 at people telling that that they're wrong, that doesn't work. 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:10.320 What does work is what's known as motivational interviewing. This 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:13.320 kind of strategy of interacting with people is a highly 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.760 effective tool for moving the needle when it comes to 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.439 mindset change. So here are some of the tips that 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:23.000 listeners can take with them. So the first is you 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:26.320 want to show genuine curiosity for the person's views. It 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:28.760 needs to feel like a conversation that you're having. And 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:31.520 one way to make it feel like a genuine conversation 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.639 is to increase the number of questions you're asking versus 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:38.600 the statements you're making. I could be like, Chelsea, you 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.560 should think X, Y, and Z, or I could say, Chelsea, 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:43.760 why is it that you think this thing? Like how 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:46.600 did you come to develop these beliefs in the first place. 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:49.439 Another technique that I think can be really powerful is 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:54.280 reminding people of their agency that you're not forcing a 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:59.480 mindset shift on them. Instead, you are recruiting their agency. 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:02.400 You are are giving them the tools and maybe new 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.359 information that they can then noodle with to try to 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.919 change their own minds. And that's a much more sustainable process. Right. 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.920