Speaker 1: Welcome to Go Ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Speaker 1: Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. I don't think
Speaker 1: that there's some one soul mate. It's not like there's one.
Speaker 1: Although bon Jovi is my soul mate, there's always exceptions.
Speaker 1: Are you saying that gossiping is the same as if
Speaker 1: I'm picking lice out of your scalp and eating it. Well,
Speaker 1: you've done both. So what do you think I want
Speaker 1: to give her too much? I don't like her to
Speaker 1: come in with an inflated head, so we won't mentioned
Speaker 1: the Golden Globe. After all we've been through. We deserve
Speaker 1: an orgasm. Cis I deserve? Welcome to Go Ask Allie.
Speaker 1: I'm Alli Wentworth. This season, I'm digging into everything I
Speaker 1: can get my hands on, peeling back the layers and
Speaker 1: getting dirty. On this episode, we'll be talking about cancel culture.
Speaker 1: What is it and what does it mean for our social, political,
Speaker 1: or professional world. People can't seem to say anything without
Speaker 1: the risk of being quote unquote canceled, which could mean
Speaker 1: being shunned, shamed, or fired. The thing is, I find
Speaker 1: it to be very divisive and I'm really scared about
Speaker 1: it because I think it hurts us culturally and politically
Speaker 1: and spiritually. So today on this episode, I want to
Speaker 1: understand it. I am a student of cancel culture. I'd
Speaker 1: like to be able to sit at my dining room
Speaker 1: table without my daughter's telling me I can't say that.
Speaker 1: I can't do that, Mom, You're gonna be canceled, particularly
Speaker 1: because I'm somebody that is very vocal on my podcast
Speaker 1: and on talk shows. So I have two guests with
Speaker 1: me today to dig into the mine field of cancel culture.
Speaker 1: Internet culture journalist Asia Romano, who has written deep dive
Speaker 1: articles for Vox about the origins and evolution of cancel culture.
Speaker 1: Then we dig into the effects of cancel culture on
Speaker 1: comedy and the bigger question is comedy dead. Actress and
Speaker 1: comedian Amy Schumer tells me your thoughts. First up, Asia Romano.
Speaker 1: They are a culture a reporter for Vox. They're focused
Speaker 1: on Internet culture and communities, as well as criticism and
Speaker 1: commentary on movies, TV, theater, and other media. Asia's written
Speaker 1: too in depth articles for Vox explaining the history of
Speaker 1: cancel culture and how it's evolving. So come with me
Speaker 1: while we dig into this whole notion of cancel culture
Speaker 1: and when I say dig in, I mean very gingerly.
Speaker 1: Asia Romano, I'm just so thrilled you're you're coming on
Speaker 1: to talk to me about this, So welcome to go.
Speaker 1: Ask Ali Hi, thank you for having me. So, Asia,
Speaker 1: let me ask you a question. Are you millennial? You
Speaker 1: gen z gen x? I'm right on the border between
Speaker 1: gen X and millennial. Okay, So I'm there's no generation
Speaker 1: for what I am. I'm so old. Social media like
Speaker 1: didn't exist when I was younger, and so I still
Speaker 1: feel like a student not only of social media, but
Speaker 1: of so many things, and one of them I'm particularly
Speaker 1: fascinated by because I don't truly understand it is cancel culture.
Speaker 1: You're you're not alone. Okay, good, So walk me through
Speaker 1: your understanding or how you view cancel culture. Let's start there. Well,
Speaker 1: I think you have to understand when you talk about
Speaker 1: cancel culture, you're really talking about essentially two different things.
Speaker 1: You're talking about the original idea of canceling, which was
Speaker 1: sort of a community idea that became kind of as
Speaker 1: an in joke around the end of among black communities
Speaker 1: on social media. So you have that initial idea canceling
Speaker 1: is the idea of like an individual or a collective
Speaker 1: boycott of somebody who's rubbed you the wrong way. And
Speaker 1: then you have canceled culture, as it's become this ongoing
Speaker 1: cultural phenomenon where people react to something they don't like,
Speaker 1: harassing them, calling their managers, trying to get them held
Speaker 1: accountable and or fired and or prohibited from future work, etcetera, etcetera,
Speaker 1: and essentially trying to enact a community we caught through
Speaker 1: the means of social media. Um, that's become this kind
Speaker 1: of political weapon. And I think that's what people are
Speaker 1: describing as cancel culture. But I think it's existed for
Speaker 1: a while. This, I mean, it maybe wasn't called cancel culture,
Speaker 1: but you know, there were figures in even the past
Speaker 1: century that people would do their version of cancelation, like
Speaker 1: Lenny Bruce absolutely and and other people. Except now it
Speaker 1: seems like it seems divisive asia, it seems mean and scary.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, that's also why I tried to differentiate between
Speaker 1: the actual canceling, which I think was again sort of
Speaker 1: individualized and and meant as like a community form of
Speaker 1: protests and talking truth to power, right, and a lot
Speaker 1: of that has been compared to say, the civil rights
Speaker 1: movement boycotts, you know, when you'd have people exerting their
Speaker 1: power as a community because they didn't have individual power.
Speaker 1: So you'd have the boycotts of you know, businesses in
Speaker 1: the South that were segregated to draw attention to the
Speaker 1: inequality there. And in that sense, cancelation is sort of
Speaker 1: an updated version of a boycott, right, and it's doing
Speaker 1: sort of similar things because it's trying to draw attention
Speaker 1: to like power, like a power different shield, right. You know,
Speaker 1: there's some people that think cancel culture doesn't exist. Other
Speaker 1: people say it's free speech. Is it free speech? Is
Speaker 1: it protecting free speech? I think it's complicated because I
Speaker 1: think we're definitely seeing people freaking out about cancel culture.
Speaker 1: We're seeing you know, members of of right wing legislatures
Speaker 1: pass ordinances against cancel culture, and they're trying to say
Speaker 1: band critical race theory from being discussed in classrooms, right, like,
Speaker 1: So there's an actual effort to both cracked down on
Speaker 1: a cancel culture and then also cancel people they think
Speaker 1: are doing the canceling. Right. It gets into this vicious cycle,
Speaker 1: right yep. So we're seeing real world effects of this
Speaker 1: thing that may or may not exist. So let me
Speaker 1: ask you. This Time's Up is a movement that was
Speaker 1: created to help all women in sort of every faction
Speaker 1: deal with workplace inequity, whether it's sexual harassment or or
Speaker 1: inequal pay. And so here's a movement that has been
Speaker 1: worked on by some incredibly smart activist women, and somebody
Speaker 1: comes along, okay and attacks Governor Cuomo with you know,
Speaker 1: perfect grounding to do so. And what happens in our
Speaker 1: culture is people don't go through the narratives and the
Speaker 1: storylines from both sides. They hear something and they go, Okay,
Speaker 1: you're canceled. And my biggest issue is that there's so
Speaker 1: much misinformation and so much quickness to punish. And the
Speaker 1: next thing that happens is, let's say, with times Up,
Speaker 1: they're canceled, and then there's like there's no advocates left
Speaker 1: on the playing field. Old So the thousands of women
Speaker 1: maybe that were being helped and there was scaffolding around
Speaker 1: them to help them in the workplace, it's just immediately gone.
Speaker 1: There are repercussions, and I think that there's no due
Speaker 1: process anymore, right, And one reason for this, I think
Speaker 1: this is fueling a lot of the outrage against cancel culture,
Speaker 1: and it's the way that social media operates to kind of,
Speaker 1: as you said, really collapse and condense arguments that are
Speaker 1: much more complex, right, and much more nuanced, because like,
Speaker 1: if you're on Twitter all the time and you only
Speaker 1: have two characters, right, you can't really have a lot
Speaker 1: of nuance. In addition to that, I think is something
Speaker 1: the academic Alice Morowick has She's termed it as morally
Speaker 1: motivated networked harassment. And what that means is that instead
Speaker 1: of say like a good faith engagement where you have
Speaker 1: you know, and kind of both sides getting airtime and
Speaker 1: both sides getting the chance to talk through a debate
Speaker 1: or a conversation, right, instead, you have as a situation
Speaker 1: where on social media you'll have people who are in
Speaker 1: essentially social media networks who are motivated to kind of
Speaker 1: spread outreach. And this happens at every point along say
Speaker 1: the political spectrum, and often it has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with politics. It could be like if you're in a
Speaker 1: religious community and you're motivated by a specific tenet of
Speaker 1: your religion, or if you're in a fandom and you're
Speaker 1: motivated by a specific belief that your fandom has, like
Speaker 1: it frequently happens that fans will just sort of attack
Speaker 1: each other. It can be very kind of complicated to follow.
Speaker 1: But the sort of underlying core activity that Marvik identified
Speaker 1: is that once people latch onto this idea, whatever it is,
Speaker 1: that they can get mad, that they can get mad about,
Speaker 1: and then they can spread it to their followers and
Speaker 1: be kind of a part of this chain of of reaction, right,
Speaker 1: and that validates people. And once you have that kind
Speaker 1: of thing happening, you don't really have due process, Like
Speaker 1: you said, you have this sort of moral outraged by
Speaker 1: all that keeps growing and growing because people are motivated
Speaker 1: to share their anger and that sort of gets them
Speaker 1: clout on social media in a way that you know,
Speaker 1: having a conversation is not. But I think cancel culture
Speaker 1: equally as often impacts people who are, you know, not
Speaker 1: involved in politics at all, people who are just trying
Speaker 1: to live their lives and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: because of something they said or did, they are hit
Speaker 1: with these waves of harassment. And I think that that's
Speaker 1: partly because people who are doing the harassing feel so justified.
Speaker 1: This is the key to like the moral motivation behind
Speaker 1: it all, right, They feel so justified and what they're
Speaker 1: doing that they don't care that they're hurting other people.
Speaker 1: They don't care that the person on the other side
Speaker 1: of their harassment is being severely impacted. Is you know,
Speaker 1: is of somewhere sobbing or crying and and in the
Speaker 1: most extreme cases, actually doing themselves harm. And it sort
Speaker 1: of becomes a question of going back to what you
Speaker 1: said about the lack of d process and and actually
Speaker 1: sorting through a situation and working through it rationally and
Speaker 1: having a discussion about it the DOE process in yourself,
Speaker 1: like how you can make yourself stop reacting and anger
Speaker 1: and sort of a knee jerk outrage, and how you
Speaker 1: can calm down and prioritize what matters to you in
Speaker 1: a way that doesn't involve hurting other people. And I
Speaker 1: think this is something too that we increasingly lose sight of.
Speaker 1: So here here I come with my big sweeping statement,
Speaker 1: which is social media is kind of the dictator of
Speaker 1: all this stuff. No, absolutely, I think you're right. Part
Speaker 1: of the outrage against cancel culture, I believe, is outrage
Speaker 1: against social media and the way it is dividing us
Speaker 1: and sort of increasingly siloing us off into these camps
Speaker 1: that just sort of yelled at each other, right, because
Speaker 1: there's never I mean, there's an immense amount of people
Speaker 1: he can go online and call out others for their
Speaker 1: behavior and get groups to kind of join this public fray.
Speaker 1: But also I think it's worth pointing out that, like,
Speaker 1: when you make the public fray the target, instead of
Speaker 1: looking at the points people are raising and why people
Speaker 1: are angry, you're turning this this thing that was originally
Speaker 1: used as a tool to call for accountability and a
Speaker 1: way to sort of level a very imbalanced playing field,
Speaker 1: You're turning that into a cudgel to use against the
Speaker 1: people who didn't have power to begin with. So I
Speaker 1: think it's really complicated, right, Like you're weaponizing this idea
Speaker 1: of cancel culture, and especially the right wing. I want
Speaker 1: to say the right wing because they usually are the
Speaker 1: people who are legislating it in terms of trying to
Speaker 1: literally pass bills around it. But you know, you see
Speaker 1: it again on all at every point in along the
Speaker 1: political spectrum, people using this idea of cancel culture to
Speaker 1: sort of browbeat their political enemies or their their community enemies.
Speaker 1: Because once you say that some of these cancel culture,
Speaker 1: then you can just sort of dismiss whatever the opposition
Speaker 1: is saying to you, right, So I think it's a
Speaker 1: really double edged sword. Also. I mean, you know, you
Speaker 1: look at Trump, and Trump should have been canceled a
Speaker 1: thousand times over. There was so much carnage, certainly during
Speaker 1: his presidency of people that were getting canceled, But yet
Speaker 1: he was impervious to cancelation. And so then my next
Speaker 1: question is asia, is it just the patriarchy that is
Speaker 1: immune to cancel culture. Well, it would kind of seem
Speaker 1: that way, right. The whole irony of canceling is that
Speaker 1: it rarely works. You know, there are these extreme cases
Speaker 1: where people will have you know, lost their jobs or etcetera.
Speaker 1: But in most of those cases, people lost their jobs
Speaker 1: because they were held accountable for things they actually did.
Speaker 1: For example, the Central Park bird lady who called the
Speaker 1: cops on on the man in Central Park Like, she
Speaker 1: didn't lose her job because she was canceled. She lost
Speaker 1: her job because she was racist and made all of
Speaker 1: her coworkers probably afraid of her. Right, So there are
Speaker 1: levels of discourse or just even basic facts about what
Speaker 1: happened in cases that get lost, like the doctor SEUs
Speaker 1: thing that so many conservatives were outraged about. Like the
Speaker 1: narrative around that was that Dr SEUs was getting canceled, right,
Speaker 1: But in fact, none of Doctor Seus's major titles, none
Speaker 1: of the books that you actually have read, we're getting
Speaker 1: taken off the shelves. The ones that we're getting taken
Speaker 1: off the shelves were these heinously racist books that hadn't
Speaker 1: been published in years. And it wasn't like anyone was
Speaker 1: was actually saying we will no longer publish Doctor suits.
Speaker 1: No one was saying that at all. They're just saying
Speaker 1: this sort of minor set of his works that have
Speaker 1: very offensive contents, well, we'll just lose those for a while, right,
Speaker 1: Like that's it, And I think that's a much different conversation.
Speaker 1: But that conversation was not the conversation that was being
Speaker 1: had because people wanted to use that news as an
Speaker 1: excuse to be mad about cancel culture, right because ultimately
Speaker 1: didn't Dr seuss book didn't didn't go in the best
Speaker 1: seller list during that whole controversy, right right, Right, And
Speaker 1: the same thing with j. K. Rowling, Like after she
Speaker 1: was quote unquote canceled for being a transpob, her sales
Speaker 1: of her books actually increased in the UK. So when
Speaker 1: you talk about you know, is the patriarchy and pervious,
Speaker 1: I think there's two things that are happening. It's that
Speaker 1: the patriarchy has the power and the ability to shape
Speaker 1: and control the narrative around cancel culture in a way
Speaker 1: that the people who are trying to do the canceling
Speaker 1: do not write. And then also because of that power,
Speaker 1: they have further power, which is to resist the actual
Speaker 1: effects of people trying to hold them accountable. Right, and
Speaker 1: it's time for a short break. Okay, let's get back
Speaker 1: to it. In a cancel culture, there's no learning curve.
Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is you cannot make
Speaker 1: a mistake. And I think as human beings, making mistakes
Speaker 1: is how we learn. And I it's funny because I
Speaker 1: was just talking to the dean of my daughter's college
Speaker 1: and he was saying that even days before the students
Speaker 1: were coming to school, they rescinded a lot of of
Speaker 1: acceptances because and this was not because of social media
Speaker 1: or parents or it was other students turning other students
Speaker 1: in meaning calling up and saying, oh, just so you know,
Speaker 1: this student did this, that and the other, and they
Speaker 1: got the student canceled, And these are teenagers whose frontal
Speaker 1: lobe haven't developed yet. And so if you go to
Speaker 1: any kind of great scripture, you learn by your mistake.
Speaker 1: But if you can't make mistakes because you'll be canceled,
Speaker 1: you can't move forward. Then you're like in this incredible
Speaker 1: guinea pig cyclical. It's tricky because yes, like on the
Speaker 1: one hand, you want there to be grace, you want
Speaker 1: there to be a mercy, and you want there to
Speaker 1: be lenients. Yeah, obviously I have no idea what kinds
Speaker 1: of things are they're getting reported for, right, But like
Speaker 1: if it's something that's extremely hainously offensive, you know, if
Speaker 1: they've been reported and the school had still let them in,
Speaker 1: you know, would that have sent the message that they
Speaker 1: need to learn and repent and actually understand what changes
Speaker 1: to make their behavior, or would they have been sent
Speaker 1: the message that it doesn't matter what they do because
Speaker 1: they have the privilege and the power to just skate
Speaker 1: by and get on into college anyway. So I think
Speaker 1: you have the conversation about consequences and accountability that tends
Speaker 1: to get lost in sort of this rush to judgment. Actually,
Speaker 1: and one thing I think it's important to emphasize is
Speaker 1: that while we're having all these conversations about consequences and accountability,
Speaker 1: you have so many people, mostly marginalized people. There's a
Speaker 1: whole level of I guess, victimization that gets lost when
Speaker 1: we're having this conversation and we're trying to say, oh,
Speaker 1: there's no second chances for anybody, But in fact, a
Speaker 1: kid who only who quote unquote only has his college
Speaker 1: application admission rescinded, is still you know, they have a
Speaker 1: chance to reapply when they do have all of the
Speaker 1: the second chances that society tends to afford, you know,
Speaker 1: upper class, privileged white people essentially, you know, I'm a
Speaker 1: privileged white woman sitting here talking about it. But when
Speaker 1: you start to look through the lens of race and
Speaker 1: gender and you know, socio economic income, like, it's, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a completely different thing, which doesn't make it universal,
Speaker 1: which enrages me even more. One thing that makes this
Speaker 1: so difficult is that once you start talking about concepts
Speaker 1: like mercy and justice, you run into this situation where
Speaker 1: no one ever has the moral authority to be able
Speaker 1: to say, hey, this is where we should draw the
Speaker 1: line and give someone a second chance. Because as soon
Speaker 1: as you say, let's give this person a second chance. Then,
Speaker 1: because of all the you know, the morally motivated network
Speaker 1: to harassment that I mentioned earlier, like that whole trend
Speaker 1: and that whole tendency, you have people than attacking you
Speaker 1: and saying, oh, you're part of the problem, right, Like,
Speaker 1: will anybody ever be moral enough to ask and to
Speaker 1: earn forgiveness in this context? I think that's a legitimate
Speaker 1: question to ask. But the thing is, once you ask it,
Speaker 1: then you look like you're part of the enemy, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think about what Barack Obama said about
Speaker 1: this kind of the quote unquote will politics and people
Speaker 1: being so judgmental about each other and saying that's not activism.
Speaker 1: But for me sometimes it's very hard to separate that
Speaker 1: what is activism and what is basically social media pitchfork grade,
Speaker 1: you know, right, right, It's really tricky because on their
Speaker 1: winter hand, you want there to be a space where
Speaker 1: you can have those conversations and you can have those
Speaker 1: sort of like meeting of the minds, right, But at
Speaker 1: the same time, nobody should be pressured to say, interact
Speaker 1: with somebody who's made them feel unsafe or or harmed, etcetera.
Speaker 1: Like this whole, you know, mute block sort of functionality
Speaker 1: that we've gotten, like social media, develop those types of
Speaker 1: tools in order to make people safe from harassment. Right.
Speaker 1: I think many people feel increasingly that that's the only
Speaker 1: way they can really shut toxicity out of their lives,
Speaker 1: you know, just once, when somebody comes at you with
Speaker 1: an opinion that you don't like, you just block them
Speaker 1: and move on. And that's important to have. But I
Speaker 1: also wonder if it maybe protects us from having to
Speaker 1: share space with ideas that we aren't comfortable with, you know,
Speaker 1: and wrestle with our own opinions, and learn how to
Speaker 1: digest concepts that we don't want to think about, and
Speaker 1: then maybe grow as human beings. Listen. There was a
Speaker 1: survey in and they found that in seven hundred interactions,
Speaker 1: deep listening meaning kind of respectful, non judgmental conversations, were
Speaker 1: a thousand times more effective, you know, in kind of
Speaker 1: bringing people together to understand each other as opposed to
Speaker 1: just spitting out some venom against somebody and then blocking
Speaker 1: their response. You know, it's very easy to just hear
Speaker 1: what you want to hear. And then the bigger thing
Speaker 1: asia is cancel culture, you know, has his finger in
Speaker 1: the pie a little bit when it comes to what
Speaker 1: an angry country we are. It's interesting because I don't
Speaker 1: want to put all of this blame at the feet
Speaker 1: of quote unquote cancel culture per se, because before cancel
Speaker 1: culture was called cancel culture, it was called political correctness, right, Like,
Speaker 1: There's always been this tendency to just sort of weaponize
Speaker 1: language and to weaponize this idea of free speech and
Speaker 1: use it against people who are marginalized and maybe have
Speaker 1: not had voices. And one of the reasons that we're
Speaker 1: seeing all of this anger coalist right now is because
Speaker 1: social media has made people who previously did not have
Speaker 1: a voice in the collective public space, has made those
Speaker 1: people more visible, has given them a way to be
Speaker 1: heard and to be part of the cultural conversation. More
Speaker 1: throughout history, you would have heard from a bunch of
Speaker 1: white men with no direct experience involved in the conversation
Speaker 1: that they were having right. So, so now that all
Speaker 1: of this change has happened, you have a lot of
Speaker 1: people feeling really threatened. But part of the reason they're
Speaker 1: threatened is because more people are getting to have steaks
Speaker 1: in the conversation. And I think that's important where I
Speaker 1: do think cancel culture. I do think that there's this
Speaker 1: aspect of modernity that has really really made people lose
Speaker 1: their faith and good faith engagement because I think people
Speaker 1: want to be in their small contained communities and they
Speaker 1: only try those people to be able to interact with
Speaker 1: them respectfully. And when you're in those small contained communities
Speaker 1: and you sort of trust everybody that you're talking to,
Speaker 1: but once you go outside of your safe space, as
Speaker 1: it were, and you interact with anybody else online, there's
Speaker 1: an innate level of distrust. They're right, and I think
Speaker 1: the way social media algorithms work is to sort of
Speaker 1: further and fuel that division, and that's siloing off of
Speaker 1: people so that they don't trust anybody else who's outside
Speaker 1: their specific community, which of course just makes all of
Speaker 1: the network harassment worse, which makes all of the walking
Speaker 1: and moving on worse. So it really does feel like
Speaker 1: something that's spiraling and and getting worse because nobody is
Speaker 1: really sure how to fix it, but everybody hates it.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's a time when cancel culture is
Speaker 1: positive in the sense of protecting oneself from toxic people
Speaker 1: or misinformation or inflammatory trolls. I mean, where where is
Speaker 1: the line I tend to view the Internet is inherently
Speaker 1: good because it has given rise to so many opportunities
Speaker 1: for diverse voices to make themselves heard. So I think
Speaker 1: that's important. But I also think that it's difficult to
Speaker 1: find examples where someone was canceled, someone with silence forever, right,
Speaker 1: and the Internet went well done and we all moved on,
Speaker 1: Like because even in the worst cases, like with someone
Speaker 1: like r. Kelly or Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein, like
Speaker 1: they've been canceled, but their their cultural impact is still there,
Speaker 1: Like you still have the question of what to do
Speaker 1: with their works, what to do with the legacy and
Speaker 1: the impact that they left, and and that's that's harder
Speaker 1: to untangle, right. I guess for me, the best case
Speaker 1: scenario would be, you know, like somebody gets their admissions presented,
Speaker 1: for example, and they learn, like it really and truly
Speaker 1: learn not to be a Nazi for example, Like that
Speaker 1: to me would be like a positive, But I also
Speaker 1: think that they're probably more effective ways to teach that,
Speaker 1: because I think what that tends to do is that
Speaker 1: would probably make the person bitter, right, and instead of
Speaker 1: making them humble and making them go, oh, my god,
Speaker 1: everyone was right. I'm so sorry. I've learned my lesson.
Speaker 1: But then what happens is they get like if they
Speaker 1: if they didn't know what they were doing right, and
Speaker 1: they were like, I was innocent, I'm just a kid,
Speaker 1: leave me alone. Then they get embraced, you know, by
Speaker 1: all of these people would say bad intentions. We maybe
Speaker 1: our actual nazis right, and we were like, oh, you've
Speaker 1: been victimized. Come hang with us. We won't victimize you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: sorry you didn't get into college. But now you're a
Speaker 1: proud boy, right, exactly right. That that happens, and we
Speaker 1: see that happen all the time, and I think it's
Speaker 1: at heart maybe everybody just wants to be accepted and
Speaker 1: to fit in. So could you say that cancel culture
Speaker 1: is kind of a new way, a new in our
Speaker 1: sort of modern way of creating a moral structure, but
Speaker 1: we're still trying to figure it out. Meaning if I
Speaker 1: looked at it in a positive way, is it sort
Speaker 1: of a newly formatted place or way of saying this
Speaker 1: is okay and this is not okay. But we just
Speaker 1: really haven't gotten there yet. I think you're onto something
Speaker 1: there because I think in many ways you can look to,
Speaker 1: for example, the decline in spirituality. Right, Like, if you
Speaker 1: think about the function that religious organizations and so forth
Speaker 1: have held for people throughout centuries, like the lack of
Speaker 1: of like a moral authority to tell people what's right
Speaker 1: and wrong has sort of left us kind of in limbo.
Speaker 1: And so I think to some degree, we've collectively been
Speaker 1: trying to rebuild a moral foundation non social media, using
Speaker 1: each other as our as our loadstones, right, and using
Speaker 1: influencers I guess as our guide posts. And this is
Speaker 1: how you get you know, somebody like like Kirsty Tagott,
Speaker 1: perfect example, somebody like who is sort of perceived is
Speaker 1: like this easy going moral authority until they do something
Speaker 1: wrong and then they themselves are canceled. Right. So it's
Speaker 1: like we're sort of in this position where we're really
Speaker 1: looking for moral leaders essentially, and I think where we
Speaker 1: can both have a sense of the collective community and
Speaker 1: an agreed upon moral foundation, but we also get sort
Speaker 1: of the the emotional catharsis that we used to get
Speaker 1: from going to church and going to revival. I completely agree.
Speaker 1: I also think that there's a loss of community in
Speaker 1: our country, and our community, which was the church was
Speaker 1: I don't know, p t A. Whatever that thing was
Speaker 1: that brought us all together in micro and macro communities
Speaker 1: has now been shifted online. So that's what I mean
Speaker 1: by all of a sudden with the Internet, we've got
Speaker 1: to create a whole new moral structure, which I think
Speaker 1: cancel culture has plays a big handed And also you
Speaker 1: have to think about like how harmful many of our
Speaker 1: public institutions have been when they've had power to, you know,
Speaker 1: go on witch hunts and persecute queer people for example.
Speaker 1: Like throughout history are like public institutions have not been infallible,
Speaker 1: and so we're trying to to I think to some
Speaker 1: extent people are trying to build new versions of those
Speaker 1: systems without replicating all the flaws. But they're getting into
Speaker 1: whole new problems, you know, because I think more people
Speaker 1: are aware of, say, you know, how not to be
Speaker 1: a homophobe, for example, but they're less conscious of, you know,
Speaker 1: how to treat each other respectfully, how to just sort
Speaker 1: of sit still with your anger and process what you're
Speaker 1: feeling and and really work through an argument to figure
Speaker 1: out how to to most effectively react to it, right,
Speaker 1: And I think all of those things are being fueled
Speaker 1: by you know, just the nature of social media and
Speaker 1: the nature of having information flying at you and you
Speaker 1: latching onto like the thing that ignites your emotions the most,
Speaker 1: which is usually the thing that makes you the maddest.
Speaker 1: It's a very very new, sort of brave, new world
Speaker 1: that we're talking about right now, yeh, which is why
Speaker 1: you know, I'm so grateful for this conversation, because just
Speaker 1: the more I've been talking to you about it, the
Speaker 1: more I go, Okay. So it's we've just sort of
Speaker 1: built the foundation and we're we're all trying to figure
Speaker 1: it out, and we're all trying to build something that
Speaker 1: we can sort of both agree on. And I think
Speaker 1: to a lot of this could be solved if we
Speaker 1: had more regulation of the Internet as a service because
Speaker 1: right now, the way that social media operates, you have
Speaker 1: a company like Facebook that's really not helping um that
Speaker 1: that's sort of building these algorithms that just funnel people
Speaker 1: into angrier and angrier silos of information. There's no higher
Speaker 1: accountability at the top for that, you know, like you
Speaker 1: had Facebook having to undergo congressional hearings for like the
Speaker 1: Cambridge analytical scandal, right but but nothing really happened, like no,
Speaker 1: no major change came from that, and I realized that
Speaker 1: this is a process. And I don't want to just
Speaker 1: fully blame Facebook, but I'm saying Facebook is very representative
Speaker 1: and huge and crucial example of the absolute lack of
Speaker 1: people at the top who are being forced to think
Speaker 1: about these changes because nobody is forcing them to. So
Speaker 1: this is a machine that just keeps on barreling through society, right.
Speaker 1: I will say one thing that academics have found helpful
Speaker 1: is like when they're looking at terrorist recruitment online, they
Speaker 1: found that when people are really censored and boycotted, essentially,
Speaker 1: when people are actually canceled and effectively pushed out of
Speaker 1: mainstream social media spaces, their ability to be influential drastically decreases.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's interesting because that implies that
Speaker 1: canceling someone by actually denying them a voice in the mainstream,
Speaker 1: is super effective when it comes to fighting extremism. And
Speaker 1: there are academics and tech researchers thinking about this problem
Speaker 1: and working on it all day long. But we obviously
Speaker 1: have a long way to go. We do have a
Speaker 1: long way to go. But Asia, you've helped me so
Speaker 1: much today you really have. Like I said, I think
Speaker 1: we all need to think about it, process it, and
Speaker 1: figure out the best way to use the internet for good.
Speaker 1: And and by the way, if I've said anything that's
Speaker 1: going to get me canceled, I hope you'll support me
Speaker 1: on this podcast. So Asia, this see end up. Go
Speaker 1: ask Alli. I'm actually asking my guests and listeners to
Speaker 1: ask me questions because I feel like I do a
Speaker 1: lot of asking other people. So do you have a
Speaker 1: question you would like to go ask? Alli? I do so, Ali.
Speaker 1: I have been watching a street dance show lately where
Speaker 1: people compete to do various street dance and hip hop styles,
Speaker 1: and I'm just wondering if you have ever done street
Speaker 1: dancing or if you have any opinions on street dance.
Speaker 1: Oh You're so sweet to think that I would have
Speaker 1: ever street dance. Um, Asia, I failed dance at n
Speaker 1: y U Drama School. But I do live in New
Speaker 1: York City and I see street dancing all the time
Speaker 1: and I'm mesmerized by it. And I have seen the
Speaker 1: most talented people in the world do it. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you walk, you know, in Central Park in the springtime,
Speaker 1: you see some of these women and men doing triple
Speaker 1: flips and bouncing off the wall and it's unbelievable. So
Speaker 1: I am such a fan of it. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: a true art form. I agree. I agree. They have
Speaker 1: battle competitions where they just compete like they have to freestyle,
Speaker 1: and it's just the whole world. And I'm fascinated by it.
Speaker 1: I am. I actually am really fascinated by too, and
Speaker 1: I would love to see a competition me too. We
Speaker 1: should go. Yeah, take me absolutely, Asia, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you coming on. That's my pleasure. Thanks
Speaker 1: for having me. Next up, Amy Schumer joins me to
Speaker 1: give us the lowdown on comedy in a world of
Speaker 1: cancel culture, and also schools me on what jokes I
Speaker 1: can and cannot say. And now, my friend and one
Speaker 1: of the funniest people ever in the comedy world, Amy Schumer.
Speaker 1: Amy Schumer is an Emmy winning and Golden Globe nominated
Speaker 1: stand up comedian, actress, writer, producer, and director. Like so
Speaker 1: many comedians, she has often toward theaters in arenas all
Speaker 1: over the world, but in twenty sixteen, Schumer became the
Speaker 1: only female comic to headline Madison Square Garden. Last year,
Speaker 1: she released her three part docuseries Expecting Amy about her
Speaker 1: incredibly difficult pregnancy, while also creating a comedy special and
Speaker 1: currently Amy can be seen in Stephen Carram's film adaptation
Speaker 1: of his Tony winning play The Humans. Oh Amy Schumer
Speaker 1: High Hi Hi Hi Hi Ali, Oh God, I love
Speaker 1: you and I heard your son just in the background,
Speaker 1: So I want to make sure that you have time
Speaker 1: to make his mac and cheese. So this episode is
Speaker 1: something that I've been really fascinated with. It's about cancel
Speaker 1: culture and comedy because I truly even this morning I
Speaker 1: did um a talk show, and I afterwards was spinning
Speaker 1: because I was like, am I allowed to say that?
Speaker 1: Can I make that joke? Oh? My god? The hate
Speaker 1: is going to come pouring in. So tell me. This
Speaker 1: is a very very broad paint stroke of a question,
Speaker 1: but censorship problematic tweets me to Comics are being scrutinized
Speaker 1: like never before. So is there a panic in the
Speaker 1: industry and is comedy dead? Yeah, a little question, that
Speaker 1: is a simple question. Yes, I think yes, comedy is dead.
Speaker 1: We're all dead. No. I think it's a great question
Speaker 1: and like really worth talking about. I feel like, as
Speaker 1: someone who you know we all want to like do
Speaker 1: our best, and aside from just getting canceled, it's like,
Speaker 1: how can I be helpful, you know, you know, and
Speaker 1: as somebody who's like trying to be a good ally
Speaker 1: and advocate and whatever, I just I know I'm gonna
Speaker 1: sunk up. So I'm just like, just tell me when
Speaker 1: I sunk up. I'm gonna do my best and try
Speaker 1: and be authentic, but you know, just just tell me
Speaker 1: when I if I say something wrong, and people do.
Speaker 1: I've learned, you know, from different times, I've gotten backlash
Speaker 1: and it's just worth listening to. And I don't think anyone,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like the people who are actually being
Speaker 1: like fully canceled. Um. As far as comedians, well no
Speaker 1: one's really been canceled, like even like louis doing shows again.
Speaker 1: But I think that it's more helpful to say I
Speaker 1: don't want to buy a ticket to your show than
Speaker 1: saying like, come on back and let's normalize and forgive.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I I sort of feel like comedy
Speaker 1: now where we are right now in our culture is
Speaker 1: kind of can be a vehicle for radical thought. And
Speaker 1: what I mean by that is there are plenty of
Speaker 1: ways of talking about communities in a funny, funny way
Speaker 1: that don't necessarily have to be derogatory. I also think,
Speaker 1: like what you just said, as a comedian, if you
Speaker 1: can listen to your people, you know, your crowds and
Speaker 1: and your fans when they say, hey, by the way,
Speaker 1: you know this is uncool. That's also part of I guess,
Speaker 1: our learning curve as people in a comedic world. I mean,
Speaker 1: I I know that on social media, you know, there's
Speaker 1: lots of hate. That's just the norm. So I just
Speaker 1: you know, comb through the hate and go, I know,
Speaker 1: I know, I'm God, George could have done better. I
Speaker 1: get it. I get it. But occasionally somebody will say
Speaker 1: something that I go, yeah, you're absolutely right, I shouldn't
Speaker 1: have used that pronoun or that joke is actually you know, inflammatory.
Speaker 1: I get it. Thank you. Yeah. I'm trying to educate
Speaker 1: myself to be helpful in that way, and I understand
Speaker 1: the defensive reaction to want to be like, no, that's
Speaker 1: not what I meant, or here's why I'm not racist,
Speaker 1: or why you know, But I have like learned my
Speaker 1: lesson enough times and it's like, actually, usually better to
Speaker 1: just listen because there's probably something in what you know,
Speaker 1: I used to do roasts, you know, I did this
Speaker 1: comedy Central Roads. There's so mean, you like, go for
Speaker 1: the absolutely jugular, And I wouldn't do those now because
Speaker 1: I just as a younger comic, like I just didn't
Speaker 1: really think about that people actually had their feelings hurt.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to hurt people's feelings like
Speaker 1: that's not I don't think that's heroic. I've just learned
Speaker 1: that about myself. It doesn't feel good, it's not worth it.
Speaker 1: So when people you know they have specials or you know,
Speaker 1: their act where it's like it's just not helpful. It's like,
Speaker 1: what are you fighting for? Like any comic who's like
Speaker 1: I missed the days we could you could slap a
Speaker 1: woman in public, you know, it's like, are you for?
Speaker 1: Is this we want to support? I'm not even kidding.
Speaker 1: It's like that insane. So, you know, and as far
Speaker 1: as cancel culture goes, I think that the people who
Speaker 1: are the most afraid and complaining about cancel culture are
Speaker 1: the ones who are in danger of being canceled, and
Speaker 1: they need to take a look at themselves. Agree with you,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not worried about it when I'm on stage,
Speaker 1: I'm not worried I'm going to say something that's gonna
Speaker 1: because I know my intentions and I know that I'm
Speaker 1: like open to evolving. Yeah, I also think that. I
Speaker 1: mean as a stand up comedian, of which I am not.
Speaker 1: I tried it. You're hilarious and I've been your fan forever.
Speaker 1: Hey you sorry, bitch, I'll take it. Bit. I did
Speaker 1: want to try stand up, but they all yelled stripped,
Speaker 1: and that's when I stopped. But you know, they say
Speaker 1: that if you're too intimidated to try to be deep
Speaker 1: or provocative, you shouldn't do stand up comedy, because that
Speaker 1: is kind of your role as a comedian to you know,
Speaker 1: shed the light on so many things that maybe we
Speaker 1: would be too afraid to talk about or joke about.
Speaker 1: So that I mean, to me, that's that slippery slope.
Speaker 1: I think the most provocative thing you can do as
Speaker 1: a comic. It is exciting to have people go in
Speaker 1: thinking one way and to say some things that you
Speaker 1: feel like maybe change their mind or evoked some thought
Speaker 1: or emotion. But I think it's an opportunity to educate,
Speaker 1: like some of you are. Once said that my show
Speaker 1: was like sneaking shaved carrots and the brownies. And I
Speaker 1: love that because I really, you know, you have to
Speaker 1: like sneak. You're trying to be funny, but you also
Speaker 1: want to you know, so like something that I'm doing
Speaker 1: right now, which is so fun You're the first person
Speaker 1: and he's gonna see this. But maybe I won't even
Speaker 1: give for a podcast. But you know, I had hyper
Speaker 1: amesis just like you did. Was so sick and found
Speaker 1: out that in New York. I'm sure you know this,
Speaker 1: black women are twelve times more likely to die unnecessarily
Speaker 1: during childbirth in New York. It's it's like three times
Speaker 1: around the whole country, three times. It's already a lot
Speaker 1: of times. Twelve times. Were like, she's so anyway, it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: how do you drop that statistic on an audience. But
Speaker 1: what I just did was I ordered this mask of
Speaker 1: an old white man. So I think if you wear
Speaker 1: this into the hospital, you could get like a great
Speaker 1: c section and no one will be mad at you.
Speaker 1: You know, you just are like, just treat me like
Speaker 1: I'm this old white politician. That is so funny. It's
Speaker 1: pretty good, right, And for our listeners, she just put
Speaker 1: on a white man, old man looks like a bird
Speaker 1: Nie Sanders very much, so like a Bernie math My god,
Speaker 1: I love that. I look pretty good, right, I just
Speaker 1: got it today. But that's exactly right. You're taking risk,
Speaker 1: You're you're making a statement. But we're all laughing, you know,
Speaker 1: learning through laughter. Yeah, And it's just like being an
Speaker 1: ally and all this stuff is so imperfect, Like it's
Speaker 1: a constant negotiation. So it's like you can't win and
Speaker 1: people are going to be annoyed. But that shouldn't keep
Speaker 1: you from trying to be part of the conversation because
Speaker 1: that's what people want. And that just keeps the white
Speaker 1: supremacist patriarchal system in place, is because they just assume
Speaker 1: people are gonna wanna just repeat the status quo and
Speaker 1: not make too much noise, especially women, so as not
Speaker 1: to annoy anybody. Right. But it's funny because it's really
Speaker 1: the women that are shaking it up, like you. Like, um,
Speaker 1: I was watching Michelle Wolfe's stand up show the other day,
Speaker 1: and you know, she she goes right in for abortion
Speaker 1: and so many other things, and yet and yet you're laughing.
Speaker 1: It does not feel preachy. It feels invigorate ding and
Speaker 1: you know, I can only imagine the pushback she got,
Speaker 1: but she didn't get canceled, you know. And even back on,
Speaker 1: you know, when David Chappelle was talking about child molestation
Speaker 1: and Luis c k was insulting the Parkland shooting survivors
Speaker 1: Kevin Hart about his son being gay, they weren't canceled
Speaker 1: for those things. No, they weren't canceled. Um. If anything,
Speaker 1: it probably got them like another Netflix specially, any publicity
Speaker 1: is good. Yeah, they're like, Okay, we want to sign
Speaker 1: you up for the next deal right now. Um yeah.
Speaker 1: Like and that stuff is just not helpful. Like I
Speaker 1: don't think it's brave to take a stand against the
Speaker 1: Parkland students. It's you know, you're just going the wrong way,
Speaker 1: Like why would you want to oppress any group of people?
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, Chappelle dropped a new special
Speaker 1: and it's like it's like a lot of it is.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's hard to speak out and
Speaker 1: speak up for people as a white woman of privilege
Speaker 1: because that's what you're gonna be, you know, and nobody
Speaker 1: was here you apologize, like our white guilt is not
Speaker 1: helping anybody. But I still want to try you know,
Speaker 1: and and so and your stand up, Like, I just
Speaker 1: want people to be funny and like, I think it's
Speaker 1: strange how focus people get on their own haters. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like I would rather see a special where somebody
Speaker 1: is not focusing on the sort of press they got
Speaker 1: about something or answering back for something. It's like, I
Speaker 1: I do want to hear just about things that we
Speaker 1: can all relate to and that kind of stuff. Like,
Speaker 1: you know, there's so many different comedians and everybody should
Speaker 1: you know, do whatever they want. But I just think
Speaker 1: it's more interesting. I totally agree. I actually just read
Speaker 1: the other day, um Jay Leno said that he was
Speaker 1: reworking all his routines now because of cancel culture, which
Speaker 1: I thought his were pretty I don't know what to
Speaker 1: say to that. I mean, I don't know his stand up.
Speaker 1: Actually I heard he was a great stand up. I've
Speaker 1: never seen it. It's pretty tame, you know what I mean. Like,
Speaker 1: and I mean, I think somebody like Jerry Simall doesn't
Speaker 1: really need to worry about that because he doesn't say
Speaker 1: anything that's like canceled. He's not the king of edginess, right, No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I I mean, I have jokes that I am so
Speaker 1: not proud of and that I've learned so much, like,
Speaker 1: you know, jokes that just made me cringe so hard
Speaker 1: because but also it's just like that the way that
Speaker 1: we were raised, Like I was raised around people that
Speaker 1: thought racist jokes were funny and and uh, you know
Speaker 1: I I you know, somebody would make a joke like
Speaker 1: our our black friends, like we would make jokes about
Speaker 1: how they couldn't swim, you know, and like we thought
Speaker 1: that was hilarious and they would laugh and it was
Speaker 1: like totally normalized. And then as you know, I'm getting
Speaker 1: older and like learning like, well, why is that? And
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, because of segregation, because black people weren't
Speaker 1: allowed in pools and they were humiliated and some people
Speaker 1: were killed for putting their foot in what was considered
Speaker 1: the white section of a pool. And that you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think, Um, you know, it's a process, but
Speaker 1: you weren't conscious of that. Now you're conscious of this
Speaker 1: kind of thing, you know what I mean? And yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to do better and I want to help. Yeah,
Speaker 1: have you heard of a behavioral agreement form? No? But
Speaker 1: I'm interested. So they're my husband to get one of those.
Speaker 1: It's called a prenup. No, it's a it's a it's
Speaker 1: a new form that I read about and for comedian,
Speaker 1: for stand up comedians. It says, by signing this contract,
Speaker 1: you are agreeing to our no tolerance policy with regards
Speaker 1: to racism, sexism, classism, agism, able is um, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, xenophobia, islamophobia,
Speaker 1: or anti religion or anti atheism. How about that? Well wait,
Speaker 1: and that's for the comedian to sign before they go up. Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 1: Some new comedy clubs are having behavioral agreement forms, which
Speaker 1: is quite interesting. It's interesting that is wildophobias, a rapnophobia.
Speaker 1: It gets like really specific, it gets afraid of your
Speaker 1: own vagina. I don't know what that's called. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it's like you haven't signed that though I have
Speaker 1: not signed it. But like one time I went to
Speaker 1: Dubai to do stand up and I think I did
Speaker 1: have to sign something saying that I wouldn't talk about
Speaker 1: religion or you know whatever, and it felt so bad,
Speaker 1: like you just you don't want those rules on you.
Speaker 1: And I mean, what is that the clubs? Is that
Speaker 1: the clubs like ensuring themselves if the audience gets I
Speaker 1: don't know what that is. That's that seems weird to me,
Speaker 1: or maybe they can say we were not going to
Speaker 1: pay you because of this, because you said that. I mean,
Speaker 1: who knows. I just thought it was a little that
Speaker 1: is wild, really was wild. But also like I don't know,
Speaker 1: I've been doing these shows at the Comedy Seller, just
Speaker 1: like getting my sea legs back, you know, doing stand
Speaker 1: up after the pandemic, and are you doing COVID jokes
Speaker 1: a little bit? You know, I don't really have a ton,
Speaker 1: but yeah, the audience, it's it's advertised as like a
Speaker 1: secret girl show, and so the audience knows it's going
Speaker 1: to just be women on the show, and I think
Speaker 1: that is like a nice feeling and the audience. There
Speaker 1: have been some men in the audience, but it's been
Speaker 1: largely just female crowds, and it's it's felt very safe
Speaker 1: and sweet. You know. That's Can anybody go? Yeah? Can
Speaker 1: I go? I'm a girl. I mean, if you've got
Speaker 1: seventeen dollars, I do think it's seventeen molls, but you're
Speaker 1: We're worth it. Thank you. That's really sweet. I was
Speaker 1: thinking about after nine eleven, everybody said, oh, God, you
Speaker 1: can't be funny. Comedy is dead. You know, you can't,
Speaker 1: but you can't, you can't. But there was definitely a
Speaker 1: momentary pause in black humor, irony, cuticism, all that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. But then after a few weeks it came
Speaker 1: back and people started to you know, so, And I
Speaker 1: hate to use this line about you know, uh whatever
Speaker 1: it is circumstances plus time equals comedy or whatever the
Speaker 1: hell that is, but um, you know, but in some ways,
Speaker 1: I think it is true that right now we're so
Speaker 1: seeped in this cancel culture that maybe two years from now,
Speaker 1: I mean, they have it though they have it. It's
Speaker 1: like they've got Rogan, they've got birth, they have access
Speaker 1: to that right now. So I don't think it's so
Speaker 1: much that like, you know a lot of comedians are
Speaker 1: going to go back to that. It's uh, because it's
Speaker 1: it's there if you want it. They have their people
Speaker 1: are Yeah, there are people hanging on to um whatever
Speaker 1: those views are. And how exactly I personally get all
Speaker 1: my medical advice from Joe Rogan. Um, I do too,
Speaker 1: and and always have. I've lost ten pounds on the
Speaker 1: do Warmer Horse stuff, which is fabulous nobody told me
Speaker 1: that no activated charcoal and de warmer, and I'm actually
Speaker 1: never felt better. I get my period every with him,
Speaker 1: without a uterus, I get my periods same. I don't
Speaker 1: have ovary take at my periods. It's incredible perfect um.
Speaker 1: So I'm also hearing a lot of stand up comedians
Speaker 1: don't want to do college campus stores because they say
Speaker 1: that the college students are way too politically correct and
Speaker 1: quote unquote woke, and they get really upset about I mean,
Speaker 1: have you heard that that is I would say that
Speaker 1: that I've never felt fed as an artist by a
Speaker 1: college show. But I mean, they pay great money. So
Speaker 1: I don't know who's saying no to those shows. But
Speaker 1: I'll go and I'll just I'll read the Declaration of Independence,
Speaker 1: play it's safe. Do they really pay? They pay big books, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: colleges pay really well. So anyone who's like, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's not the show you're going to work on and
Speaker 1: be like, god, I learned so much about myself as
Speaker 1: an artist. They are really really sensitive and woke and
Speaker 1: all of that, and that's okay, you know, that's that's
Speaker 1: how they're feeling. You can't tell them that they're feeling incorrectly.
Speaker 1: So yeah, if you're going to do a college show,
Speaker 1: just like I would just say, like don't take those
Speaker 1: big risks and the big swings, like it's not worth it.
Speaker 1: Just take the check. Yeah, it's just get that check,
Speaker 1: get in and out of ann arbor wherever the fuck
Speaker 1: and going to a show at a nightclub if you
Speaker 1: want to express yourself. It's so funny. How much political
Speaker 1: human or do you do? Do you do a lot
Speaker 1: of politics? No? I don't. I mean it's so depressing.
Speaker 1: It's not because I'm trying to stay away from it.
Speaker 1: Like I have a joke right now where I'm like,
Speaker 1: let's try and think of it instead of the abortion
Speaker 1: man in Texas, Like let's see it as an opportunity
Speaker 1: for a destination abortion. And you know, like trying to
Speaker 1: spind it like bring your girlfriends to Camcoon you've always
Speaker 1: wanted to go, But it's like it's so dark, it's
Speaker 1: so unfunny and and what's you know, But it's just
Speaker 1: such a bummer, And I know I want, I do
Speaker 1: want jokes about it, but I lost, Like I think
Speaker 1: half my audience going out for Hillary, did you really? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I was doing Arenas and I was. I was in Tampa,
Speaker 1: and I was, you know, like this is a big deal,
Speaker 1: like basketball teams play here, and I just asked the question.
Speaker 1: I was like, can somebody just explain why you don't
Speaker 1: like Hillary? Like I just I don't understand, Like I've
Speaker 1: just never heard what the reasoning is, you know, like
Speaker 1: just anybody in the audience. And somebody came up and
Speaker 1: they were like her emails, and I was like, what
Speaker 1: does that mean? You know, and there was no nobody
Speaker 1: had any information, and so like two people left the
Speaker 1: show and they wrote about it like mass exited. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: what about the twelve thousand people that stayed, Like can
Speaker 1: we focus on that? That's pretty good exactly. It's like
Speaker 1: I think I love that the people who come to
Speaker 1: see me on purpose, I know they're on my side.
Speaker 1: I know they're not you know, like, yeah, I love
Speaker 1: looking out at the crowd and knowing like these people
Speaker 1: are on the right side of history. Yeah. I mean
Speaker 1: I would imagine that it would be like if you
Speaker 1: were like bon Jovi or somebody and you come out
Speaker 1: and it's just the Mormon Tabernacle choir watching you, you know, like,
Speaker 1: who who wants that? Anyway, you know what I mean. No,
Speaker 1: I'd rather not. You know, I have friends who don't
Speaker 1: speak out about anything because they're afraid to hurt their career,
Speaker 1: and I think that seems like a really stifling way
Speaker 1: to live. I could not do that. I could not
Speaker 1: keep my mouth shut and be able to sleep at night.
Speaker 1: But also the fact that you don't keep your mouth
Speaker 1: shut is what's so great about you. Well, thank you,
Speaker 1: and will you tell that's my husband? Yes, obviously I
Speaker 1: need to do a podcast with your husband. Um. But
Speaker 1: also I think people now are like, you know, politics
Speaker 1: are so full of lies. You know, I'm basically getting
Speaker 1: my truths from stand up comedians, you know what I mean? Yeah,
Speaker 1: me too. I get a lot of I learned so
Speaker 1: much from Samby or John Oliver and yeah, like there
Speaker 1: have been moments in my life where I'm watching like
Speaker 1: you know, wall to Wall Madow and like just I'm
Speaker 1: glued to that stuff. But now it's like I want
Speaker 1: to be informed, but I do feel like I just
Speaker 1: need a break. Yeah, it's just all so depressing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a lot. Listen during lockdown, I was locked down
Speaker 1: with the news anchor and all he did was just
Speaker 1: he was just like a running feed of bad news.
Speaker 1: So um, I know, so I looked like I want
Speaker 1: to see other people. I was. I went an open marriage,
Speaker 1: but I was like seeking comedy out to save me
Speaker 1: from it all. It was too much. And whether that
Speaker 1: was comedians making fun of what is going on, or
Speaker 1: it was comedians who were just you know, like Jerry
Speaker 1: talking about marriage or something else, it was my escape, literally,
Speaker 1: my mental escape, because I needed it so badly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know. I really just feel like people want to
Speaker 1: like laugh and be silly, and and that's what I
Speaker 1: want to Yes, oh my god, laughter is everything. And
Speaker 1: and the other thing is that I wanted to ask
Speaker 1: you about is and and I'll probably get canceled for this,
Speaker 1: but I have very strong feelings about like being offended
Speaker 1: by the material or being offended because it wasn't funny.
Speaker 1: And I remember a million years ago, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to say this wrong, Tosh Point. Oh yes that is
Speaker 1: his name, that's his legal name. Okay. He was doing
Speaker 1: some stand up and he made a rape joke and
Speaker 1: a woman stood up and walked out, and he yelled
Speaker 1: after her and said something like, you know, I hope
Speaker 1: you get gang raped on the way home and everybody was,
Speaker 1: you know, there was this big debate about it, and
Speaker 1: I said, at the time, I had a show on
Speaker 1: Yahoo and I said, you know, first of all, there's
Speaker 1: something funny about rape. There's no joke there. But his
Speaker 1: joke wasn't even funny, right, Yeah, it's wishing gang rape
Speaker 1: on someone. Is not ever like the gold standard of hilarity,
Speaker 1: I don't know. But it's also not a joke. It's
Speaker 1: not a joke. There's nothing funny about it. I know.
Speaker 1: That's a problem I've been having to I really don't
Speaker 1: care for comedians acts where there's no joke. They're actually
Speaker 1: just expressing actual hate for women. Yes, and and that's
Speaker 1: where people go, yeah, but but it's funny and you're like,
Speaker 1: there was no punchline, Like these people just actually feel
Speaker 1: very threatened by women. It was completely misogynistic. And so
Speaker 1: I spoke out about it. What did you say? You
Speaker 1: said on Yahoo? You didn't. I said on Yahoo two things.
Speaker 1: I said. One, rape is never an area that you
Speaker 1: know makes me guffa. And but also I wasn't even laughing, like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I can't believe I'm laughing. It was
Speaker 1: just a lazy horrible, mean spirited women hating thing to say.
Speaker 1: And of course I got hundreds of tweets from you know,
Speaker 1: fourteen year old boys going like, I hope you get
Speaker 1: getg raped. And I was like, okay, thank you, thank
Speaker 1: you for your feedback. Yes, it's it's so um. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But I mean that was clearly a case where you're
Speaker 1: not funny, and you're not funny. No it's not. It's
Speaker 1: just like not brave, it's not funny. But but in
Speaker 1: the past you have made jokes, let's say, about being
Speaker 1: overweight or heavy. I remember your your dove so commercial jokes,
Speaker 1: and I mean, first of all, I'm peeing in my
Speaker 1: pants laughing, but also it had a point. It was
Speaker 1: really uplifting and inspiring at the same time. And that,
Speaker 1: to me is the genius in the craft of being
Speaker 1: a comedian. You know, if you can actually actually lift
Speaker 1: up and make us laugh. Yeah, you should fucking get
Speaker 1: the Nobel Peace Prize especially right. No, yes, that is
Speaker 1: the thank you. Because I've been applying for this, they
Speaker 1: keep giving it to people like Malala or you know,
Speaker 1: I know, and I'm like, what about me, the real hero?
Speaker 1: I actually said recently, George said, oh, the scientists won
Speaker 1: the Nobel Peace Prize, and I said, fucking not Amy
Speaker 1: Schumer again, it's such bullshit. They're not responding to my letters.
Speaker 1: I'm really well, well, well, I'm going to get a
Speaker 1: group together. I'm going to start to the people. I'm
Speaker 1: going to talk to the people. Thank you people on
Speaker 1: the phone. Okay, So I wanted to ask you. I
Speaker 1: wanted to go ask Ali, what was it like to
Speaker 1: have COVID so early on? Good question? How did it
Speaker 1: make you feel emotionally? So when I had it, it
Speaker 1: was really early March. It was in scary times like wintry,
Speaker 1: and everybody was freaking out, and everybody like bunker down
Speaker 1: or flew from the city. And I got it. I
Speaker 1: was not scared. I did not think I was going
Speaker 1: to die, because I never think that I'm going to
Speaker 1: die in a kind of big dramatic way, which is
Speaker 1: why I know, like if I was on a plane
Speaker 1: with my husband and it went down, it would be like,
Speaker 1: you know, George Stephanopolis plus one die, Yes, you would
Speaker 1: be listed in the Death the Wife, the wife. You
Speaker 1: are worthy of a big dad thank you. But um,
Speaker 1: it scared everybody else because it was so early on
Speaker 1: and when it started to get into pneumonia. That's when
Speaker 1: you know, it was like, all right, George, gotta go
Speaker 1: get those big horse antibiotics. And you know, it freaked
Speaker 1: my mother out. But also George took a picture of
Speaker 1: me for Good Morning America because we wanted to alleviate
Speaker 1: some fear, like I have it, but I'm I'm okay,
Speaker 1: I'm not on a ventilator, you know, So we kind
Speaker 1: of wanted to not freak people out because a lot
Speaker 1: of times you would, after me, you would see somebody
Speaker 1: in the news and it would say like they have COVID,
Speaker 1: but you didn't know what that meant. So we sort
Speaker 1: of chronicled a little bit. And then me, you know,
Speaker 1: coming downstairs and having not seen my husband and children
Speaker 1: for three weeks was a way to say I got
Speaker 1: through it. It's okay, um, But you know it was
Speaker 1: it was being the part of the early days was
Speaker 1: you know, it was a little scary, I'll say that.
Speaker 1: But Jerry and Jessica did throw toilet paper and fabric
Speaker 1: softener over the wall, which was incredibly kind. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: true friendship. Anyway, I got through it. I got through it, okay, um,
Speaker 1: Amy Schumer go be with your baby boy. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: I love you. I love you too. Thank you for
Speaker 1: doing this. You're amazing. Thanks for having me. If you
Speaker 1: ever want to talk about our vaginas, um, I would
Speaker 1: like to talk about our vaginas under any circumstances. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, and this is no joke. I feel like
Speaker 1: we have some stuff to say. I think like a
Speaker 1: vaginas have a lot to say. I think we should
Speaker 1: let them speak. We'll stay out of it and they'll
Speaker 1: just talk. Yes, all right, thank you so much, Bye bye.
Speaker 1: I can never get enough of Amy Schumer. I love her.
Speaker 1: I love her. She's funny, she's empowered, she's smart. And
Speaker 1: Asia is so insightful. My god. I had these two
Speaker 1: powerhouses on my podcast talking about cancel culture, and I
Speaker 1: think cancel culture is here, guys. It's here for a while.
Speaker 1: And I don't even think I can say guys anymore.
Speaker 1: I think you get canceled for that, um people. So
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, Asia, thank you Amy, thank you
Speaker 1: for listening to go ask Ali. Be sure to subscribe,
Speaker 1: rate and review the podcast, and follow me on social
Speaker 1: media on Twitter at Ali e Wentworth, It on Instagram
Speaker 1: at the Real Ali Wentworth and If you have questions
Speaker 1: or guest suggestions, I'd love to hear from you, call it,
Speaker 1: text me at three to three four six three five six,
Speaker 1: or email Go Ask Gali podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: Go Ask Gali is a production of Shonda land Audio
Speaker 1: and partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.