1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: If you grew up in the nineties, you probably know 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: the scene from American Pie that I'm about to tell 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: you about. 4 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 2: No, not that scene. 5 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: This one takes place in a suburban living room at 6 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: a raging party with bad music and red solo cups 7 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: full of beer and a group of horny change boys 8 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: who are gathered in the hallway to admire a photo 9 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 1: of Stiffler's mom played by Jennifer Coolidge. 10 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 3: That's Stiffler's mom. 11 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 4: Yep shit. 12 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: I cannot believe a fine woman like. 13 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 4: This produced a guy like stiff It took some milf. 14 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 4: The hell's that? Yeah? 15 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 2: What the hell is that? 16 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 4: A milf? 17 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: That is m I lf mom? 18 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 4: I'd like to fuck Yeah, Oh yeah, mil. 19 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: Mil hel. 20 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: Milf. 21 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: It's a familiar term now, but where did it come from? 22 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: And I want to go away. 23 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 4: I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Ceesy Vanakaram. 24 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: This is in retrospect, where each week we revisit a 25 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,119 Speaker 1: cultural moment from the past that shaped us. 26 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,199 Speaker 4: And that we just can't stop thinking about. 27 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: Today. 28 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: We're talking about MILFs, a term popularized by the movie 29 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: American Pie, which celebrates its twenty fifth anniversary this year. 30 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: Susie we're talking today about American Pie, which, for those 31 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: who don't know or didn't grow up in the nineties 32 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: and early two thousands like we did, this was the 33 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: wildly popular nineteen ninety nine movie about four high school 34 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: virgins who are on the prowl to lose their virginity, 35 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,119 Speaker 1: are essentially horny beyond belief and perhaps defined cringe before 36 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: cringe was a term that we used. 37 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 4: I mean, we should probably clarify that all the virgins 38 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 4: in this particular story are boys. 39 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 2: Oh guess true. 40 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 4: Now we might have a movie like this about female 41 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 4: virgins also trying to lose their virginity. In fact, I 42 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 4: think we have had those movies, but at this time 43 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 4: it was only boys. It was a boys But. 44 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: As far as sex goes, I'm pretty sure this was 45 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: the film that, for a certain cohort of our generation, 46 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: really served as sex education. 47 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 4: I mean, it certainly had a lot of sexual tropes. 48 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,119 Speaker 1: I mean, not even tropes, just like actual sex sects 49 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: in the most awkward way imaginable from masturbation and the 50 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: fear of mom walking in on you, of course, which 51 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: happens premature to acuation, spying through a webcam on a 52 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 1: foreign exchange student sex on prom night. It had jocks 53 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: and cheerleaders and band geeks. It had edging. It really 54 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: it had everything, and many of these moments are seered 55 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: into my teenage brain, how about you. 56 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 4: I definitely saw it at the time, but it's not 57 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 4: one of those movies I've seen a million times, Like 58 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 4: this feels like a movie some people have. 59 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 3: Seen a lot. I only remember having. 60 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 4: Seen it once or twice, and I had to rewatch 61 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 4: it to kind of remind myself what happens. But of 62 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 4: course the scene that I do remember that I will 63 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 4: aways remember is the one and where Jason Biggs, who 64 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 4: is the star of the movie, you know, has sex 65 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 4: with an apple pie. 66 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: What it looks like, I mean, first, who fingers the 67 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: apple pie? 68 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 4: Yes, where he fingers it, which is in and of itself, 69 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 4: like you're like, oh god, what's happening. It's interesting because 70 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 4: I must have seen this movie when I was in 71 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 4: my late teens, and I don't remember being shocked by 72 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 4: it at the time, Like I remember just being like, oh, 73 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,399 Speaker 4: this is a funny movie, and now it feels more 74 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 4: shocking somehow because I'm an adult, so I'm just like funny, 75 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 4: I know, I don't know why. It just feels like, 76 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 4: I notice how raunchy it is in a way that. 77 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 3: I think I just took for granted at the time. 78 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 4: It's worth mentioning there are a lot of really famous 79 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 4: people in this movie. 80 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: Yes, sir, a ton of famous people and people who 81 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: then became famous after it. Jason Biggs, of course you 82 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: mentioned who is the main character. His father is played 83 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: by Eugene Levy. It's the father who then ends up 84 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: walking in on him while he is having sex with 85 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: the There's Natasha Leon and tera Ree. There's of course 86 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: Jennifer Coolidge, like really big names. 87 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, ann Alifon Hannigan who was a star on How 88 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 4: I Met Your Mother. So it's a lot of recognizable faces. 89 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 4: Mines Savari's in it, people who went on to have 90 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 4: big careers after this. Yeah. So okay, obviously there's the 91 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 4: famous apple pie scene, and that is the thing most 92 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 4: people remember. But the label of milf is also something 93 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 4: that I remembered. I just didn't really trace it back 94 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 4: to this particular movie. So what made you want to 95 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 4: talk about this? 96 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by language, and this kind of stuff is 97 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: fun for me to track down the origins of Yeah, 98 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: and I started thinking about that actually when you and 99 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: I were recording last season our episode on Dawson's Creek 100 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: and Mary kay Lturno, which of course is about younger 101 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: boys in relationships with older women and how that is perceived. 102 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: And I just kept thinking about this term milf and 103 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: wondering where it had actually come from, and was it 104 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: really from American Pie because that's what I remember and 105 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: where I remember first learning about it, I think, but 106 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: that can't possibly be the first usage of it. 107 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: So anyhow, that led me down a rabbit hole. 108 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 3: I do love when you go down a linguistic rabbit hole. 109 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 4: But before we get into it, can you remind me 110 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 4: what's happening in American Pie when the term milf is 111 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 4: first used in the movie. 112 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, let me just set the sceme for you a 113 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: little bit. So the guys the virgins there at Stiffler's house. 114 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: Stiffler is like the classic rich, arrogant kind of douchebag 115 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: guy that everyone puts up with because he throws all 116 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: the parties. 117 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 4: What's up dude, the children to party night ausing a 118 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 4: fuck face. Every teenager has one of these, and every 119 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 4: every movie has one of these. 120 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: Absolutely and so they're all standing around gawking at this 121 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: photo stifflish mom on the. 122 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: Wall, and you know, it's all the guys. 123 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: But one of the really funny things I learned later 124 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: is that the guy who actually defines the term milf 125 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: that we all heard there is referred to in the 126 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: credits abound of a movie simply as milf guy number two. 127 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 4: That's amazing because it's actually an actor I recognized. I 128 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 4: just couldn't figure out from where. Well. 129 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: I think you recognize him now because he's John Cho 130 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: who would later star in Harold and Kumar, but at 131 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: the time I don't think he was a recognizable name. 132 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 3: Wow, milk I number two really paid off for him. 133 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: Though, apparently, and so later in the movie what ends 134 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: up happening is that one of the virgins, Finch. He's 135 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: like the intellectual old soul of the group. He drinks 136 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: single mat whiskey and reads books on tantric sex. He 137 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: loses his virginity to the mill Stuffler's mom, and this 138 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: happens on a pool table during yet another party at 139 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: Stiffler's house on Promenay. 140 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 4: I had forgotten that detail, but I don't know how 141 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,679 Speaker 4: it's so evocative. 142 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: And Finch has this kind of rivalry with Stiffler throughout 143 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: the movie, so like him sleeping with Stiffler's mom in 144 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: a way is like the ultimate teen boy fuck you. 145 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 2: It's like, literally, I fucked your mom. 146 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's also just such a teenage fantasy, right, 147 00:06:58,800 --> 00:06:59,679 Speaker 4: It's like wild. 148 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: And so in the final scene of the movie, the 149 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: boys were at a diner post prom and they're like 150 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: giving each other the details, and Finch said, oh. 151 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 2: I just got to say that women like a fine 152 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 2: wine only get better with age. And with that line, milf, 153 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: I think the word but also. 154 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: The concept gets cemented into the culturals. 155 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 4: I gast bil no no. 156 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: I think it's worth exploring if we can stomach it 157 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: in our like prudish older years. 158 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 4: You mean my older year. 159 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: Well it was pretty gross, but like just how raunchy 160 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: American Pie was, because honestly, like you said, it is 161 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: pretty shocking to rewatch. And we only mentioned a couple 162 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: of scenes, but there were so many other gross ones 163 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: in the film. I was reading one of the early 164 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: reviews of the film, and there's this funny line from 165 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: the New York Times film critic Stephen Holden where he 166 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: says which scene is grossest, the beer scene, the pie scene, 167 00:07:59,000 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: the twilet scene. 168 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: All over the country. 169 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: During the next few weeks, teenagers able to wrangle their 170 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: way into the R rated comedy will be comparing notes 171 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: and debating. 172 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 4: First of all, I think it's funny that the New 173 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 4: York Times took this movie seriously enough to do a 174 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 4: full review of it. 175 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: Like, that's amazing, SERI some York Times, and I should know. 176 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: It wasn't that kids were only debating. One kid in 177 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: Idaho actually decided to stick his penis into a pie 178 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: in real life and ended up getting third degree burns. 179 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 4: Okay, I actually feel like I remember this, and I 180 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 4: would wager to say that a lot of teens tried 181 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 4: this because most of them were smart enough not to 182 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 4: do it on a piping hot pie. So we don't 183 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 4: know about it because they didn't get third degree burned. 184 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. You have to let the pie cool first. 185 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 4: I mean, I think the other thing I want to 186 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 4: say is that there's a lot of raunchy things in 187 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 4: this movie, but there's also things that we would consider 188 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 4: illegal now, like they record a woman without her consent, undressing, 189 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 4: and like live streaming, which I don't even know that 190 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 4: I knew at that time what live streaming was. 191 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: No, I don't think we did. But yeah, this is 192 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 2: the naughtiest scene. 193 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 3: Right. 194 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: She's the hot foreign exchange student and she asks Jim 195 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 1: if you will tutor her, and he's basically like falling 196 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: all over himself response. 197 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 4: Absolutely, that that would be that would be a great sometime. 198 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 2: How about tomorrow, Well, I have ballet practice. Perhaps I 199 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 2: could come. 200 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 4: By your house afterwards. 201 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 2: I could change cloths at your place. 202 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 4: Right, of course she's gonna change clothes at his place. 203 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 4: What an extremely fortunate twist for Jim, who is dying 204 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 4: to get her naked. 205 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: Right. 206 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 4: And then the weirdest part in this movie of very 207 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 4: weird things is then while she's naked in his room, 208 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 4: she goes through his things and finds his porn magazines 209 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 4: and is like, Oh, you know what I'll do right 210 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 4: now while I'm in this essentially stranger's bedroom, I'm going 211 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 4: to masturbate here. 212 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: It's so unrealistic, right, And then it not only streams 213 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: to his friends, but to the whole school. 214 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 4: Yes, he's accidentally sent it to the entire school, and 215 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 4: that's never acknowledged as weird that whole storyline ends basically 216 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 4: at that point in the movie because the next scene, 217 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 4: Jason Biggs is like, yeah, her host. 218 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 3: Family sent her home, and you're like. 219 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 4: What about the like crime right at the time, I 220 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 4: think we just thought teenage shenanigans. 221 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 2: Also, there's this semen in a cup scene. 222 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 4: Oh my god, that's seen. 223 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: Keavin's girlfriend has given him a blowjob and he ejaculates 224 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: into a beer cup. 225 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 4: As you know, one does. 226 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: I feel like you can picture like these red solo 227 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: beer cups everywhere throughout this movie, but this one is 228 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: actually clear, naturally, and so then Stiffler picks it up 229 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: and takes a sip of it. 230 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, which is like he first he gives it to 231 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 4: her girl and she takes a sip of it. I mean, 232 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 4: this is just kind of like gross out comedy, yes, 233 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 4: And those moments don't shock me as much as I'm 234 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 4: just like, oh no, no, stop, I don't know. 235 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: It's not even like sexy. It's just so gross in 236 00:10:59,400 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: a lot of ways. 237 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, the movie isn't sexy. 238 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 4: It's just about sex, right, which I think is an 239 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 4: interesting thing. Like there's no pretense that you're going to 240 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 4: like watch this movie and it's going to feel hot. 241 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 4: It's not a hot movie. 242 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: Well another scene, actually this reminds me of was the 243 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: flute band camp scene. Yes, of course, so this is 244 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: you mentioned Alison Hannigan. She plays Michelle, and Michelle is 245 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: kind of like the band camp door who plays the flute. 246 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: And at a certain point, Michelle is telling Jim a 247 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: story at one of these parties, and he seems pretty 248 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: bored with whatever she's saying until oh. 249 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 5: In this one time at band camp, I stuck a 250 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 5: flute in my pussy. 251 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 2: Excuse me what, you don't think I know how to 252 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 2: get myself off. 253 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 4: It's so funny because I do feel like maybe I 254 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 4: remember this movie better than I thought, or maybe it 255 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 4: just became such a popular part of the vernacular, because 256 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 4: I do remember that for a long time after this movie, 257 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 4: people would just say one time at band camp exactly. 258 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: I mean, there was so many things about this movie 259 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: that permanently lodged in the Czechs, maybe without us even knowing. 260 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: Like I was in the orchestra in high school. I 261 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: played the violin, and so from the moment we all 262 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: watched that movie, I don't think any of the female 263 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: flute players and the orchestra could ever. 264 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 2: Be looked at with a straight face. Again, like that 265 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 2: was like permanently their cross to bear. 266 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 3: Dress. 267 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 4: American Pie came out in nineteen ninety nine, right, So 268 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 4: can you just give us a sense of what's going 269 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 4: on in the culture at that time that set the 270 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 4: stage for. 271 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: It, absolutely, because it was really this era in the 272 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: late nineties of not just shot comedy, but like sex, sex, sex, 273 00:12:58,280 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: sex sex sex. 274 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 2: Viagra has just hit the market. Asking about Biagar, maybe 275 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 2: it should be you. 276 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton has denied, of course, having sexual relations with 277 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: that woman, which is Monica Lewinsky. 278 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 3: I did not have sexual relations with that woman. 279 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: But no matter what he has said, the late night 280 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: hosts have made a complete hater of making fun of 281 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: him and talking about the cigar that was inserted into 282 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: her vagina, and sales of cigars have gone up. 283 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 4: I think we've gone on with Monica's President Clinton calls 284 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 4: her my little human door. 285 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: Anyway, this is in the political culture. 286 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: Yes, and then I'm sure you remember the movie there's 287 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: something about Mary who could Forget, And I'm sure you 288 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 1: remember the scene and there's something about Mary. 289 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 4: He has semen for some reason on him, and she 290 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 4: thinks it's hair gel, and she puts it in her 291 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 4: hand hair gel. 292 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 293 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 4: Great, No, you don't have to know you I just 294 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 4: ran out. 295 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: It's also disgusting because obviously, like you'd just take a 296 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: thing that's hanging off so in space and put it 297 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: in your hair for hairdel So, yes, there's something about 298 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 1: Mary with that. 299 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 2: Very gross, really something memorbleous scene has just come out. 300 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: And this is also the era of Dsmy's Creek, which 301 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: we've talked about before, and all of the hilarious so 302 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: on the nose, over the top sexual nuendo they went 303 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: along with that should be proactive and grab them by 304 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: the dipstick off and do you walk your dog? 305 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 4: Huh? Jerkin is girkin? I'm just ecasion a little innuendo 306 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 4: in the hopes that maybe someday lead to something a 307 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 4: little more tangible. 308 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: I hadn't realized until digging into this research that the 309 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: year that American Pie came out was such a huge 310 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: year more broadly for teen movies. So like Varsity Blues, 311 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: Never Been Kissed, Cruel Intentions Election, like all of these 312 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: movies came out in nineteen eighty nine, So really big 313 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: moment for teen movies. 314 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 4: Yes, all great movies and also all movies that I mean, 315 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 4: I guess all teen movies to some degree center on 316 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 4: sex and the ways in which it's confusing for teenagers. 317 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: And you know, I think American Pie had a lot 318 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: of lasting impacts, but Milf is one of them. And 319 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: I think that after it came out, it kicks off 320 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: what we might now refer to as the milf era, 321 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: the milf. 322 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 3: Era, have fomle. 323 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 4: How does that play out? 324 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: It basically becomes popularized both as a concept and a term. 325 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: So in the months and years following this movie, tens 326 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: of thousands of milk branded T shirts and mugs are 327 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: sold online. There is this whole new genre of books 328 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: in like the Hot Mom Book, Realm. 329 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 4: So it's like moms who embrace this because they want 330 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 4: to be known as. 331 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: MILFs, I mean maybe, or it's publishers, like it's people 332 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: knowing that it will sell. But things like Confessions of 333 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: a Naughty Mommy, the Mill Anthology, the Hot Mom's Handbook. 334 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 4: I really would like to read Confessions of a Naughty Mommy, 335 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 4: Like I feel like that would be hilarious. 336 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: I have read any of these, But it's not just 337 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: the term itself that's being used. There's this moment happening 338 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: in television and film and elsewhere of hot older women, 339 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: and I'm putting I'm using air quotes on older because 340 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: oftentimes the. 341 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 2: Older was forty younger than us. 342 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh no, but you like TV shows like Desperate Housewives, 343 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: and as you know, well, this is when the Real 344 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: Housewives began, when the Real Housewives franchise s Beagan, although I. 345 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 4: Would argue that those were not particularly hot women, but 346 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 4: maybe at the time they were considered hot. 347 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: Coverage to find it and then remember the fountains of 348 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: Wayne song Stacy's mom. 349 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 4: Of course in the middle of the stay. 350 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: In two thousand and three, it was the number one 351 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: most downloaded song on iTunes, which was the year came out. 352 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: And then actually around the same time, this other hilarious 353 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: thing happens. And you know, this is maybe indicative of 354 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: my home state. I'm not sure what exactly what this 355 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: is indicative of, but in Washington State, a resident not 356 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: from Seattle, i will say, applied for a got Milf 357 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: vanity license plate and was approved, which is like kind 358 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: of fun. 359 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 2: I mean, it's fun, I fun, I got milk, got Milf. 360 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: But then people complained and He ended up having to 361 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: surrender it because on the application he had explained that 362 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: what MILF stood for was manual inline lift fluctuator, which 363 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: he claimed with some kind of like automotive gizmo. 364 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 4: I mean, honestly, that also sounds dirty. I don't know, 365 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 4: I don't know what to tell that, dude, But manual 366 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 4: inline lift fluctuator. 367 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 3: Sounds like a sex toy. 368 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 4: Ye. 369 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: But then the actual complaints about it, which were written 370 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: at of them, like the documents were revealed by the 371 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: smoking gun. 372 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 2: Remember that they were like, not sure what you people 373 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 2: the DMV have been watching, but you clearly don't know 374 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 2: what this actually means. Here's what it actually means, and 375 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: so they remoked the license. 376 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 4: It's probably also worth mentioning that Got Milk was this 377 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 4: huge ad campaign at the time, so they probably weren't 378 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 4: so happy at the Milk Foundation or whoever ran that 379 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 4: campaign Got Milk. Okay, So, Jess, I think we can 380 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 4: finally get to the linguistic rabbit hole. What is the 381 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 4: etymology that you discovered? 382 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: First, let me just caveat there's two things. There is 383 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: MILF the word, and then there is MILF the idea. 384 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: And so when we talk about milf the idea. Obviously, 385 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: we know that there's this fascination with sexual mother figures 386 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: that has always existed, or at least existed back to 387 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: like Freud days, and like the Oedipus complex. 388 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, there is kind of this weird fascination or sexualization 389 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 4: of mothers. And for people who don't know, the Oedipus 390 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 4: complex is this concept that all sons secretly want to 391 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 4: have sex with their moms. 392 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 3: I kind of feel. 393 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 4: Like I've always known but must have been introduced to 394 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 4: me in some way. 395 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: I think it's in mythology. 396 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: And then Freud took it on and was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, 397 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: this is as fraid y yeah. 398 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 4: And I think they've since said that there's no like 399 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 4: empirical evidence that that's a thing, But for some reason, 400 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 4: it just stuck culturally that like all men have some 401 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 4: weird affection for their roles. 402 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: I mean, the most famous example I think is the 403 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: cult classic The Graduate, which introduces the character of Missus 404 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: Robinson that came out in the nineteen sixties. 405 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 4: Although in fairness, Missus Robinson is not his mom. 406 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: It's his girlfriend's mom, right, And then you get the 407 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: song Missus Robinson, so there's this mythology slash and enduring 408 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: fascination that has existed for a very very long time. 409 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 1: But the term itself is a different story, like where 410 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: did this actual acronym come from? And the answer to that, 411 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: or at least the answer that I've seen, I have 412 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: not or I could not independently confirm. This is apparently 413 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: an early nineteen nineties issue of Motor Booty Magazine. 414 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 4: Okay, first of all, I am so happy to learn 415 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 4: that there is a motor Booty magazine. 416 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 2: As was I. 417 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: But I have to tell you, Susie, it's not what 418 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: it sounds like. It's not a raunchy car magazine. It's 419 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: actually like an alternative music and comedy magazine. 420 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 3: Oh all right, I mean, I guess that's cooler. 421 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 4: But like I kind of waspturing a lot of women 422 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 4: and look like their booties out on top of car, which. 423 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: Is I know, very I don't know, confusing, But that 424 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: one's really hard to confirm. What I am absolutely certain 425 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: of because I reached out to a pal of mine, 426 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: Ben Zimmer, who is a linguist, is that the actual 427 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: first usage case for which I have seen the official 428 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: proof was in nineteen ninety one. In a Buffalo, New 429 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: York newspaper. It was the name of a rock band 430 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: who apparently adopted it because they'd heard lifeguards at Fort 431 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: Niagara State Park using it to refer to the women. 432 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 4: I guess, wow, this is actually kind of fascinating that 433 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 4: you were. 434 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: And so this is in nineteen ninety one. 435 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: It appears in a local Buffalo newspaper like announcing a 436 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 1: show for this band. And funny side note, the other 437 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: bands that they were playing with in this show in Buffalo, 438 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: New York were called The Tails and Tugboat Annie, which 439 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: I feel like are also kind of like milfishy names. 440 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: I live something. 441 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, And so how what is the proof that Ben 442 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 4: provides you that made you think this is well? 443 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: So Ben actually spoke to the band. 444 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 4: Members, Oh my. 445 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 2: God, who confirmed? 446 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: Because it is basically Ben was doing research. Ben is 447 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,479 Speaker 1: a columnist at the Wall Street Journal who writes about language. 448 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 1: He's also a linguist and he actually MC is the 449 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: annual Word of the Year convention every year for the 450 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: American Dialect Society. 451 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 4: Amazing, we should go to that. It's very fun. 452 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, But so he was trying to find out the 453 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: first usages and he found this little band thing, but 454 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: you know, you couldn't be sure that milf meant mom, 455 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: I'd like to fuck. So he actually reached out to 456 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: this band member and was like, is that what it 457 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: stood for? And the band member, who didn't want to 458 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: be named because like, of course, you know he. 459 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 4: Has a real job. Yeah, he's probably gone on to 460 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 4: things LinkedIn or whatever. 461 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: Was like yeah, yeah, yeah, that was it, which was 462 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: super interesting because then the next reference that we can 463 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: trace is all the way in California in nineteen ninety two. 464 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: Somehow between ninety one and ninety two, this term makes 465 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: its way from New York to California, and we're not 466 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: sure why, but in ninety two it appears at a 467 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: conference that you see Berkeley, where a linguist name Laurel 468 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: Sutton gives his presentation about various words derogatory words used 469 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: to describe women. And so she's collected all of these 470 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: different terms used by undergraduate students to refer to women, 471 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: and milf is one of them. 472 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 4: I mean, this is actually why I love that you 473 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 4: love language so much, because it's so interesting that words 474 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 4: kind of just take on a life of their own 475 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 4: like this. 476 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 2: They do, they absolutely do. 477 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: So what you see from there is that it starts 478 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: being used on early Internet message boards, and in particular 479 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: talking about a Playboy pictorial of hot moms. Oh okay, 480 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: it was called fabulous after forty have progressive. 481 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 4: Of Playboy in nineteen ninety five, I. 482 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 3: Writ, yes. 483 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: And so another funny side is that the linguists who 484 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: presented that conference at Berkeley, Laurel Sutton, who I mentioned, 485 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: she would actually go on to write a paper about 486 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: these findings and it would be called Boaches and Skanky 487 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: hoe Bags the place of women and content piray slang, also. 488 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 4: Something I'm dying to read. So I will be reading 489 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 4: Bitches and Skanky ho Bags after that. 490 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely should. 491 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: Another funny little thread here is that years later, in 492 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,959 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, Ben Zimmer, who's the other linguist I mentioned, 493 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,479 Speaker 1: he had to actually let Laurel, the author of Bitches 494 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: and Skanky hoe Bags know that her mention of milk 495 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: in that paper was actually getting this linguistic honor as 496 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: one of the first usages in the Oxford English Dictionary. 497 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 4: Amazing. 498 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 2: So this is like. 499 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,959 Speaker 1: Jargon for us, but it's a huge nerdy honor if 500 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: you were a linguist. And so at the time she 501 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: wrote on her blog that she was quote both gratified 502 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: and mortified. 503 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 4: I'm so happy for Laurel. 504 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 2: Like that's I know, right, I think it's really cool. 505 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. 506 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: But she has this funny statement where she says, the 507 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: word in question is an awful acronym. 508 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: I first ran across while on. 509 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: Graduate school, when I was doing data gathering on slang 510 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: used by undergrads. Then as now and always, there was 511 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: an abundance of words that reduce wom into their desirability, 512 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: mostly of the negative type. If the words themselves aren't insulting, 513 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: like skank and hobang, they're condescending, which is what I 514 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: said about mil from my paper. She then goes on 515 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: to say the citation will live on long after she's gone, 516 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: and she can only hope that future generations will find 517 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: this word quaintly offensive and say, sure, glad, we don't 518 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: talk like that anymore. 519 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 3: Wow, but we really do talk like that still. 520 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 2: We have very much, unfortunately disappointed Laurel. 521 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: And now the term is actually like in every dictionary, 522 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: like it's often categorized under vulgar slang, but if you 523 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: look up Miriam Webster Dictionary or even dictionary dot com, 524 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: it is there as an acronym that stands for a 525 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: mom I'd like to fuck, And then in dictionary dot 526 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: com it says, which is often said by teenage boys 527 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: about their friends, attractive mothers, or just about women in 528 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: general who are considered of middle aged. 529 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 4: I think the other thing is this just feels like 530 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 4: it's so part of the vernacular now, Isn't it almost 531 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 4: always in the top five search porn terms in this country. 532 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 4: I feel like people love yes looking for milfborn. 533 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: I mean, that part is so disturbing, but it's like 534 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: it not a far jump from this definition saying that 535 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: teenage boys often say it about their friends hot moms too, 536 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: then imagining those teenage boys searching milf on porn sites. 537 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 4: I actually looked because I was curious, and in twenty 538 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 4: twenty two porn have had it as its number three 539 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 4: search term in the world, not just in America, in 540 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 4: the world. But it's also just fascinating that these kinds 541 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 4: of words go from being online searches to being in 542 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 4: the dictionary, Like, didn't they just put the word riz 543 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 4: in the dictionary? Which makes me feel a hundred. 544 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: Okay, well, so separate thing dictionary and word of the 545 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 1: Year are different. 546 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 2: And I only know these really fine. 547 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: Distinctions because I used to go to the Word of 548 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 1: the Year conference every year. 549 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 4: Okay, wait, that sounds so fun. And why have you 550 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 4: never told me about this before? 551 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 2: I don't know I've written about it. I guess you're 552 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 2: not reading my artist. 553 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 4: Oh my god, you know that's not true. 554 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: But it's it's honestly my most like one of the most. 555 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 2: Joy you get out of that highlight is going to. 556 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: The annual Word of the Year conference. It's hosted by 557 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: the American Dialect Society every year, and people can present 558 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: papers on linguistic trends and there's all these academics there, 559 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: and then they have this event which people can go 560 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: to and vote on slash, debate and argue for the 561 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: words of the year. So there's now multiple Words of 562 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: the Year contests and it all gets very confusing. But 563 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: I just saw that Delulu had been nominated for the 564 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: American Dialect Societies. 565 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,719 Speaker 4: That's for delusional, which is definitely one of the best words. 566 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 4: I mean, I feel silly using it, but I definitely 567 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 4: do use it. Is this how you know all these 568 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 4: linguists that you reached out to for this artist? Yeah, 569 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 4: that's it. 570 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 2: Yes, that's how I know some of them. 571 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. Wow, impressive. There's always things I'm uncovering about your career. 572 00:26:50,280 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 6: Love linguists are very fun. 573 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 2: Okay, So back to the word milf. 574 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: So American Pie we have now established didn't create this term, 575 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: but it certainly pushed it into the mainstream, both in 576 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: term but also in concept, like Stiffler's mom became the 577 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: hottest milf in America, and it seems, at least in 578 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: that time, like milf was everywhere. 579 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, and Jennifer Coolidge is truly the original Milf. 580 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 3: Right, Nobody will ever be more Milf than her? 581 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 2: Right? Right? 582 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: And actually I want to pause on her for a second, 583 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: because she's talked about this quite a bit, and I 584 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 1: think in some ways she hasn't really been able to 585 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: escape that title or that role, but it also has 586 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: ended up being good for her in a lot of ways. 587 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: She plays it super well. 588 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: After American Pie comes out, Eugene Levy ends up recommending 589 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: her for Best in Show. 590 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember. That can't be Maybe 591 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 2: she plays this trophy wife character. 592 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 5: We both have so much in common. We both love soup, 593 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 5: and we love the outdoors. We love snow peas and 594 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 5: talking and not talking. 595 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 3: She was very milfy in White Lotus too. 596 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 5: I guess, don't spend your life chasing emotionally unavailable men. 597 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: She is always kind of milfy. It's also great. The 598 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: thing is you can't age out of being a milf. 599 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true, a gum milf. 600 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 2: But it's kind of fun. 601 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: Maybe it's like kind of good because in every other 602 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: world it's like, oh, she's tool, But if you're a milf, 603 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: you can always be. 604 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 4: But she still does talk about this milf reference because 605 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 4: I saw I've seen interviews in the last year where 606 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 4: she's talked about it. 607 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 3: She embraces it, like. I don't think she rejects it. 608 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 4: I think she recognizes that it really did help her 609 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 4: become a breakout star. 610 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: It also apparently led to a lot of sex for her. 611 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I know, right, I mean she said, and 612 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a joke. She is 613 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: a comic, but she talks about how there were like 614 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: two hundred sexual partners she had after that movie because 615 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: everyone wanted to sleep with her after American Pie. 616 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 4: I mean, that makes sense to me. She was kind 617 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 4: of an icon of that era. But you know, This 618 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 4: reminds me there was another Milf reference after this that 619 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 4: I thought was hilarious. Britney Spears, at the height of 620 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 4: her fame, wore a T shirt that said Milf in Training, 621 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 4: which is pretty funny, and it was before she had kids. 622 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 4: So it's sort of this idea that being a hot 623 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 4: mom is something everyone should aspire. 624 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: To, reminding me of something that I think is helpful 625 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: in understanding the backdrop or the context to when this 626 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: term was emerging. 627 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 2: Because as this is all going on, as this is 628 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: gaining popularity, as Britney Spears. 629 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: Is wearing her T shirt, the US is actually seeing 630 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: a rise in young single mothers like Stiff Flour's mom. 631 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: Real interesting, and also the postponement of marriage and parenthood, 632 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: so it's sort of like these things are juxtaposed against 633 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: each other, or maybe they're all intertwined, because research also 634 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: found that young adults were living at home longer than 635 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: ever before, which you can imagine probably impacted the perception 636 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: of mom's sexual beings for single women and like young 637 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: men just like hanging around older women more. 638 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 3: I guess it is interesting that there were obviously young 639 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,719 Speaker 3: mothers before, but young single mothers mean that you have 640 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 3: to acknowledge that your mother to some degree is a 641 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 3: being who dates and has a romantic life, right, so 642 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 3: that would be like a shift in thinking. 643 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: There's a moment that I really remember from that show Weeds. 644 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 4: Did you watch? 645 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I know you're a weed enthusiast, so figure out. 646 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: So this is Mary Louise Parker. She plays with forty 647 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: three year old. I guess you could call her a 648 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: milk but like that's pretty young. And she plays this 649 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: widowed suburban mom who deals pot to support her kids. 650 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: And so there's this amazing episode where she's introduced to 651 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: Snoop Dogg, who plays himself iconic, and she's introduced. 652 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 7: As a milf and he says, I do I mean, 653 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 7: of course, of course, and then he smokes her weed 654 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 7: and declares that it's milf weed and performs this hilarious 655 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 7: milfweed wrap. 656 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 4: It's called the milk weed. If the good mommy smokes 657 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 4: the milk weed, take a talk to you. 658 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: But that is so funny because I remember smoking weed 659 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: that we called milfweed, or like referring to weed as milkweed, 660 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: or like that became a thing. It must have become 661 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: a like do you write, yeah, like, have you smoked milkweed? 662 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 4: I haven't smoked milfweed, but I bet you if I 663 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 4: searched for it in the Dictionary of Weed Strains, which 664 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 4: exists online. Yeah. Here it is on leafle, which is 665 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 4: where you go to research strains of marijuana for those 666 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 4: who are not stoners. It is listed. So does it 667 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 4: describe it? It does describe it. Milf is known as 668 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 4: milfwed from mother Trucker Seeds takes its name from an 669 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 4: acronym from marijuana. 670 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 3: I'd like to flour. That can't be true. 671 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 4: The milk strain tends to be led by a stroke, 672 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 4: heady buzz that elevates your mood. 673 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 2: That's so funny. 674 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is as if the term kind 675 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: of took on a life of its own, and then 676 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: people started to ascribe other things to it. 677 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 2: Do you remember that Fergy song called milf money but. 678 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 4: Then Mill's money. I do not remember the song, but 679 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 4: it feels like I should. 680 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: I don't think it's like a good song or anything, 681 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: but it supposedly redefined the term as mom's I'd like 682 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: to follow. 683 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 2: Okay, that's making sense. And then it had you probably 684 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 2: remember this part. 685 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: There were all these celebrity moms in various provocative scenes, 686 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,959 Speaker 1: including Kim Kardashian showering and milk. 687 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 4: I do have an image of Kim Kardashian showering and milk, 688 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 4: so it must be from this, but I did not 689 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 4: raise that. 690 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: So there have been various spin offs of this term, 691 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: some actually using the term, and others like SMLF. That 692 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: was a popular show on Showtime made by a friend 693 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: of mine, Frankie Shaw, which stood for a single Mom 694 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: I'd like to fuck and it was about her life 695 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: as a young single mom. Do you remember recently Martha Stewart. 696 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: She is eighty one now and she was the oldest 697 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: woman to pose for the swimsuit cover of Sports Illustrated. Yeah, 698 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: she liked great, and so she was then crowned by 699 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: the Internet as a guilf. 700 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 4: I did see that, Yes, I mean also, it feels 701 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 4: like now there are dilfs right or or that like 702 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 4: a Zaddi or those different things. 703 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: Well, I think that there's a little bit of equal 704 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: opportunity milfing happening right now, dilphespecially with the popularity of 705 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: these actors like Pedro Pascal who everyone calls Zaddi. There 706 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: was some big thing about whether Timothy Shalomey, who obviously 707 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: does not have children and like is maybe also a child, 708 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: was a dilf. 709 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 4: Timothy Shalamey is so young to be a dilf. I 710 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 4: think of milf as kind of comparable to a cougar, right, 711 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 4: It's like a hot older woman. 712 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's worth making that distinction. They are different. 713 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: Both are used to describe older women. But a milf 714 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: is a woman who's desired, like I see that as 715 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: some one where the horny teenage boys are pursuing her, 716 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: whereas a cougar is kind of the aggressor, where she 717 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: is pursuing the younger man. 718 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 3: Oh right, that makes sense. So the cougar has more agency. 719 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 4: I guess. 720 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 1: We've been talking about early twenty twenty tens, but this 721 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: is very much still occurring today. There is a new 722 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: I think it came out last year reality TV show 723 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: on TLC called Milf. 724 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 4: Manor I'm sorry, how did I miss this? 725 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 2: How did you miss this? 726 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 1: Because the premise is that eight older women are dating 727 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 1: each other's sons. 728 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I'm sorry they're dating each other's children. That 729 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 4: is a bizarre concept for a reality show, but I mean, 730 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 4: you got to give it to TLC. They know how 731 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 4: to really go there. 732 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: I guess it goes to show like there is this 733 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: enduring fascination with mother figures, like it's so weird, and 734 00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: I guess in some ways they're often viewed as like 735 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone is aspiring to be on milf 736 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: manor I hope. 737 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 4: I mean that feels tragic to me, But I don't 738 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 4: know that the concept of milf has ever felt tragic 739 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 4: to me, because it's kind of cool and aspirational, right, Like. 740 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 2: I feel like it or is it objectified? 741 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 4: So that's the thing, right, is often in culture, I 742 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,479 Speaker 4: feel like women embrace or find aspirational being objectified. It's 743 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 4: just like so rooted in the way we think about 744 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 4: what it means to be sexy is to be objectified 745 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 4: in some way. Like I told a friend of mine 746 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 4: we were recording this and she has children, and she 747 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 4: was like, I am available for an interview. 748 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: You know, it's like a joke that we all she's 749 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: considering a point of pride. 750 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 4: Right, Like I think you know, if you're a mom 751 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 4: and you have kids, you want to still feel like 752 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 4: you're a sexual being, right, You want to still feel 753 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 4: like you're desirable. So while it's objectifying, I think we 754 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 4: do have a complex relationship. I mean, as women in general, 755 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 4: with things that are objectifying. You want to be hot 756 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 4: enough to be objectified, but not objectified, right, It's like 757 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 4: a weird conflict that we have about all of these 758 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 4: kinds of terms. 759 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: That cyclical idea is interesting too, because you know, so 760 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: American Pie is a wild success. Then it goes on 761 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: to franchise. There's a number of American Pies. I didn't 762 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: know that, yeah, and the milf idea becomes a major 763 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,720 Speaker 1: plot point of them. Basically, Finch goes off to college, 764 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: but he only wants to be with Stiffler's mom, and 765 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,959 Speaker 1: so he's teaching himself how to be a better lover. 766 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 4: You learn to channel your body's energies, your chakras. 767 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,280 Speaker 2: When you can do that, you can have sex for hours, 768 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 2: even days. 769 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: And it goes on and on and on until he 770 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: ends up ultimately with somebody his age who is age appropriate. 771 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: But it's funny because in the first the main American 772 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,280 Speaker 1: Pie that we're talking about here, you don't ever learn 773 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: the name of Stiffler's Well, she's just Stiffler's mom. Like, 774 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: it's sort of similar to Stacy's mom in the song 775 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: Stacy's Mom. 776 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 4: Well, there's no character beyond just being the sex object, 777 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 4: right Like, She's just a very flat, two dimensional character. 778 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 4: She's just a hot mom, exactly. 779 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: And so then later at the very end of American 780 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: Pie two, you learn that Stiffer's mom is actually named Janine. 781 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 4: Wow, that's not a hot name. 782 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,399 Speaker 1: And we only learn that because Finch like drives off 783 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: with her to have sex, and we hear him call 784 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: it her name in like an erotic way, and she 785 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: tells him to call her stifflers mom. 786 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 4: Wow. I mean, I guess apologies to all the people 787 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,919 Speaker 4: who named Jeanine. I probably just defended, but I really 788 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 4: wasn't expecting Janine. 789 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 2: I don't know. 790 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: It's just kind of funny to think about how these 791 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: terms evolve and how in that case, it was a joke, 792 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: it was a punchline, but she doesn't really get to 793 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: have a developed personality. 794 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,760 Speaker 4: I am genuinely kind of fascinated, though, with this idea 795 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,919 Speaker 4: that all things that can initially be kind of good 796 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 4: or bad eventually become embraced as aspirational among a certain 797 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 4: set of women. Right like, even cougar, which may have 798 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 4: been at some time time predatory. There was eventually a 799 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 4: TV series with Courtney Coxona called cougar Town, right, so 800 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 4: people eventually embraced that term and also were like, I 801 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 4: want to be a cougar. 802 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: I mean, there are a lot of things about how 803 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: Nilph makes inherently sexy a character than in a lot 804 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: of these pop culture representations, is actually a predator. 805 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 2: That's like, that's a very real thing. 806 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 4: Right, where it's like there's this predatory thing that happens 807 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 4: with older women that we've turned into something like that's funny, right, or. 808 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: And often it's like, you know, you had the boys, 809 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,879 Speaker 1: the virgins or whomever. They're high fiving about it. They're 810 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: not referring to it as a statutory rape, right of course, 811 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: and like that that just has become a plot point 812 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,320 Speaker 1: in so many films. I think, right, of course, it 813 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't be the same if the genders reversed. 814 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 4: Right, Like if a father had sex with a sixteen 815 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 4: year old virgin. 816 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 2: I mean that's the Lolita trope. 817 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:57,800 Speaker 4: I guess, yeah, that's. 818 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 3: The Lolita trope. 819 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 4: I mean, I think the other thing that's interesting about 820 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 4: this is just this concept that women stop being attractive 821 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 4: or appealing after a certain age. So I guess part 822 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 4: of the reason women sometimes embrace these monikers is because 823 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 4: you know, that is just not true, right, There is this. 824 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 3: Rejection of the idea that you are put out to pasture. 825 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: Right. Well, I mean that's why there needed to be 826 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: this term in the first place, because it goes against 827 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: the commercial wisdom, which is you can't be attractive after 828 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: a certain age, after you have children, and so thus 829 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: you are defying the norm and we're gonna call you 830 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: a milf. 831 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:40,399 Speaker 5: Right. 832 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: But you know what's actually super interesting. I was talking 833 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: about the subject with my students and one of them, 834 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 1: who is very very online. She spends a lot of 835 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: time on like stan Twitter. She knows everything that square 836 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: on on the internet. She was telling me that milf 837 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,839 Speaker 1: is now being used as a compliment. What not just 838 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:00,919 Speaker 1: for a mother and not for a middle aged woman, 839 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,959 Speaker 1: but like for anyone gender notwithstanding, who is like. 840 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 2: Serving giving icon status. 841 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: Like you know how people use mom and mother as 842 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 1: a compliment based age. 843 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, Like they'll be like, Taylor Swift is mother, and 844 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 4: what they mean is she's like an icon. 845 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 2: Yes, she's an icon. 846 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 1: She's Queen Mother it's like another way of saying queen 847 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: or giving a compliment, paying compliment to someone. 848 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 2: You often see it in comments on posts. 849 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, so milf. 850 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 2: Has just sort of slotted in there with that. 851 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: So it's like Margot Robbie is a milf even though 852 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,800 Speaker 1: she doesn't have children, or like Billie Eilish could be 853 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: a milf based on something interesting or cool that she's said. 854 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: Or Timothy shallow May maybe he's even a milf. 855 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 4: Okay, this is blowing my mind. I had no idea. 856 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 4: This was like a thing. 857 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: Isn't that so interesting? And so then she was pointing 858 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: me to these Twitter accounts. There's one called archived MILFs 859 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: and there's one called archived dilfs, And from what I 860 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,919 Speaker 1: can tell, they're basically long, long scrolls with many many 861 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: followers daily content of dilfhs, which is like hot guys, 862 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: I guess. 863 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, these are just like pictures of hot people. 864 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 2: And like we don't know if they have children, we 865 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:13,800 Speaker 2: don't know what age they are. 866 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: Like it's just become maybe another term for a hot 867 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 1: person or maybe not even hot, maybe just intellectually sexy. 868 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 4: Wow, I mean, Laurel Sudden would be so proud. We 869 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 4: have reclaimed milf. Yeah. 870 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: I actually think that's a kind of nice place to 871 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: end it, that, like, this term has. 872 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:35,240 Speaker 2: In effect evolved from sexual thing reserved for I guess moms. 873 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: Or middle aged women to something that's just a compliment 874 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: for anyone who's like really bringing it. 875 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look at us, We've really evolved as 876 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:45,720 Speaker 4: a culture. 877 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 2: I guess, Susie or milf. 878 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Jess. That means so much to me, Jess. 879 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 4: I want to tease what we're talking about next week 880 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 4: because it's a fun one. 881 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,240 Speaker 1: Ooh, do we finally get to talk about my boyfriend 882 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:00,319 Speaker 1: Jordan catalog. 883 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,959 Speaker 4: Yes, we do get to talk about Jordan Catalano, who 884 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 4: was everyone's boyfriend in the nineties, and we also get 885 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 4: to talk about a lot of other subjects. 886 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 3: Our listeners suggestin ugh. 887 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:16,879 Speaker 4: Can't wait, this is in retrospect. 888 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. 889 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 4: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking 890 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 4: about and want us to explore in a future episode. 891 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 4: Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com, or find 892 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 4: us on Instagram at in retropod. 893 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 894 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 895 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: hate it, You can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 896 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: which we may or may not delete. 897 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 4: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 898 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,760 Speaker 4: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books, Feminist, 899 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 4: Fike Club, and This Is eighteen. In Retrospect is a 900 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 4: production of iHeart. 901 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: Podcasts and The Media. Lauren Hansen is our supervising producer. 902 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: Derek Clements is our engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronov 903 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: is our producer. Jarana t is our researcher and associate producer. 904 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 905 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 906 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,760 Speaker 3: Our artwork is from Pentagram. 907 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 4: Our mixing engineer is. 908 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 3: Amanda Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We 909 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 3: are your hosts Susie Bannacarum. 910 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 2: And Jessica Bennett. We are also executive producers. 911 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: For even more, check out in retropod dot com. 912 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:26,959 Speaker 2: See you next week.