1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:09,399
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. The Trump Administration's recent

2
00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:13,600
Speaker 1: cuts to humanitarian work overseas stands out for their size

3
00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,759
Speaker 1: and scope, but they don't stand alone. Even before the

4
00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,640
Speaker 1: start of President Trump's second term, international aid from developed

5
00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,080
Speaker 1: nations was on the decline. The Organization for Economic Cooperation

6
00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,600
Speaker 1: and Development reported that in twenty twenty four, international aid

7
00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:35,199
Speaker 1: was down roughly seven percent, and the OECD estimates that

8
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,560
Speaker 1: the dismantling of USAID and other changes made by the

9
00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,440
Speaker 1: Trump white House will contribute to another drop in international

10
00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,519
Speaker 1: aid in twenty twenty five by as much as seventeen percent.

11
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,559
Speaker 1: An organization that's seen the impact of that decline up

12
00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,000
Speaker 1: close is the International Crisis Group. For the last thirty years,

13
00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,760
Speaker 1: ICG has been working to prevent war and conflict and

14
00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:00,760
Speaker 1: to resolve it wherever where it's happening.

15
00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,760
Speaker 2: It's an organization that is round about one hundred and

16
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,200
Speaker 2: fifty with our staff throughout the world.

17
00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,880
Speaker 1: Comfort Hero is the International Crisis Group's President and CEO, so.

18
00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,920
Speaker 2: You'll find colleagues based as far as Carracus right through

19
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,440
Speaker 2: to Taipei, from as high up as Ukraine right down

20
00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,760
Speaker 2: to South Africa as well. It is very much an

21
00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:24,479
Speaker 2: in country operation.

22
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,800
Speaker 1: ICG is an independent organization that relies on staff working

23
00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,760
Speaker 1: on the ground around the globe to inform its policy recommendations.

24
00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,160
Speaker 2: The methodology of crisis groups that you speak to all sites,

25
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,520
Speaker 2: it's very vital in shaping the policy options, in defining

26
00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,399
Speaker 2: the way forward, that you've captured the views of all

27
00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,280
Speaker 2: the actors that are crucial to the conflict, from those

28
00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,840
Speaker 2: who are fighting, to those who are the victims, to

29
00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,000
Speaker 2: those who are influential as well.

30
00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,840
Speaker 1: At the start of the year, International Crisis Group released

31
00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,280
Speaker 1: a list of the ten conflicts it's watching. The wars

32
00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,120
Speaker 1: in Ukraine and Gaza around there, so we're the conflicts

33
00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,440
Speaker 1: in Me and mar and Sudan. ICG also highlighted relationships

34
00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,919
Speaker 1: where tensions have been escalating, like the relationship between the

35
00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,840
Speaker 1: US and China and the US and Mexico. Aro says

36
00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 1: that what this signals is that we are in a

37
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,680
Speaker 1: new and more dangerous age.

38
00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,720
Speaker 2: Not only is it perilous, but it is chapter defining.

39
00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:28,720
Speaker 2: We are literally closing down a period where liberal international

40
00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,200
Speaker 2: order was very much the area in which Crisis Group

41
00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,720
Speaker 2: was born. In the institutions, the norms of principles that

42
00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,320
Speaker 2: shaped our birth are all crumbling. Some of them are

43
00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,520
Speaker 2: disappearing pretty fast. Institutions are breaking. So for me, this

44
00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,920
Speaker 2: is more than a perilous moment. A chapter is firmly

45
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,320
Speaker 2: being shut and it's quite uncertain what we're going to

46
00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,119
Speaker 2: be birthing them into the future.

47
00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:57,639
Speaker 1: I'm David Gera, and this is the big take from

48
00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,639
Speaker 1: Bloomberg News Today. On the show, Comfort Ero, the president

49
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,720
Speaker 1: and CEO of the International Crisis Group, on how a

50
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,000
Speaker 1: new era of conflict is intersecting with the rise in

51
00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:19,560
Speaker 1: nationalism and populism in the global competition for attention and resources.

52
00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,600
Speaker 1: Comfort Hero has been working in international crisis response for

53
00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,120
Speaker 1: decades and I wanted to know, as she tracks conflicts

54
00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,359
Speaker 1: all over the world, what variables they have in common.

55
00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,680
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, Crisis Group, we're very careful to

56
00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,760
Speaker 2: try and provide a blanket narrative to explain the different

57
00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,080
Speaker 2: wars that we're looking at. I think that's one of

58
00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,960
Speaker 2: the reasons why Crisis Group was created, to make sure

59
00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,320
Speaker 2: that you are looking at the specific context of its

60
00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,839
Speaker 2: conflict as well. But if you're asking me to find

61
00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,760
Speaker 2: a through line in all of this, from Venezuela to

62
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,840
Speaker 2: know Haiti to the Sahel to the Horn to Manma.

63
00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:02,760
Speaker 2: It's hard to ignore power the politics a local regional

64
00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,800
Speaker 2: at the core of all of these conflicts as well,

65
00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,840
Speaker 2: and territorial grab is now back in Vokee as well.

66
00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,960
Speaker 2: So I think that's also another trend line that we're seeing,

67
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,960
Speaker 2: and that the guardrails that would often define how states

68
00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,400
Speaker 2: cooperate with one another that is also on the verge

69
00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:23,280
Speaker 2: of collapse as well.

70
00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,120
Speaker 1: When you look at all the conflicts that are taking place,

71
00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,880
Speaker 1: there are some that do attract more interest and attention,

72
00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,599
Speaker 1: and I wonder how much that preoccupies you. What does

73
00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:35,400
Speaker 1: get the world's attention and what doesn't.

74
00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,680
Speaker 2: The heart of the mission for Crisis Group when its

75
00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,360
Speaker 2: founders created it was that it wasn't going to be

76
00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,240
Speaker 2: an organization that just focused on the headline conflicts, the

77
00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,360
Speaker 2: ones that were at the top of mind for decision

78
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,400
Speaker 2: makers and the ones that the media latched onto. It

79
00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,960
Speaker 2: was going to be an organization that focused on off

80
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,040
Speaker 2: the radar, forgotten those that are often that don't capture

81
00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,120
Speaker 2: the hearts and minds. And that is a reminder of

82
00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,000
Speaker 2: the pressure on Crisis Group as well that our job

83
00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,840
Speaker 2: is to make sure that those conflicts are that don't

84
00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,039
Speaker 2: quite make the cut for the decision making for the

85
00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,440
Speaker 2: policymakers who have limited capacity, limited bandwidth, that you remind them.

86
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,279
Speaker 2: And I think what concerns me more and more today

87
00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,000
Speaker 2: is not that these are forgotten conflicts, but they're deprioritized.

88
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,839
Speaker 2: So good example, you know Ukraine was top of mind

89
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,040
Speaker 2: since the invasion and by Russia in twenty twenty two.

90
00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,919
Speaker 2: Now fast forwards the seventh of October, and it seemed

91
00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,120
Speaker 2: to be a tussle between who was going to grab

92
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,599
Speaker 2: the attention in Ukraine or what was happening in Gaza.

93
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,160
Speaker 2: And now today you add that into the mix of Sudan.

94
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,280
Speaker 2: Now when you look at the statistics on Sudan, it

95
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,200
Speaker 2: is today the worst humanitarian crisis. It is competing for

96
00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,760
Speaker 2: attention as well. So it is a competition for who

97
00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,280
Speaker 2: gains the attention not just by international actors, but even

98
00:05:55,320 --> 00:06:01,000
Speaker 2: by regional powers, even the regions themselves, regional leaders, regional hegemons,

99
00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,119
Speaker 2: those who are influenced or that are close to the region.

100
00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,320
Speaker 2: They struggle because they're not only dealing with the region,

101
00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,280
Speaker 2: but also what is different thirty years ago for crisis

102
00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,800
Speaker 2: group is that today all those key actors that you

103
00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,560
Speaker 2: would depend on to help shape the outcome of a

104
00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,640
Speaker 2: conflict themselves are in crisis. So I think of Nigeria,

105
00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,320
Speaker 2: for example, I think of South Africa for example. You know,

106
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,520
Speaker 2: I think of Brazil for example. When I think of

107
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,840
Speaker 2: India and China, and they all have a different levels

108
00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,719
Speaker 2: of crisis. Is that they're having to cope with, including

109
00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,680
Speaker 2: those on their borders as well. So it's a real

110
00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,120
Speaker 2: competition for bandwidth and capacity to address these issues.

111
00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,719
Speaker 1: Up next, how that competition for a shrinking pool of

112
00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:50,960
Speaker 1: resources is playing out on the ground. On his first

113
00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,320
Speaker 1: day back in office, President Trump imposed a ninety day

114
00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,839
Speaker 1: pause on all US foreign aid. In March, his administration

115
00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,120
Speaker 1: dismantled the US Agency of International Development, slashing tens of

116
00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,520
Speaker 1: billions of dollars in assistance to developing nations. Those cuts

117
00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,040
Speaker 1: have been contested in court. Earlier this month, a US

118
00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,440
Speaker 1: appeals court ruled the White House can cut foreign assistance

119
00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,280
Speaker 1: funds approved by Congress for this year. I asked comfort Era,

120
00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,800
Speaker 1: the president and CEO of the International Crisis Group, about

121
00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,480
Speaker 1: the effects of those changes in the places where her

122
00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:25,840
Speaker 1: organization works.

123
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,080
Speaker 2: We're still trying to assess the impact, but I think

124
00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,920
Speaker 2: there are various levels of impact. One is the immediate

125
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,640
Speaker 2: misery and the uncertainty about where the next money was

126
00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,240
Speaker 2: going to come from. In terms of eight, because while

127
00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,920
Speaker 2: the focus has been on USAD, we've got to not

128
00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,080
Speaker 2: forget the overall context of the fate of international aid.

129
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,280
Speaker 2: So in Europe, for example, Europe has already chloring back

130
00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,760
Speaker 2: its EID money. France, for example, eighteen percent cuts in

131
00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,720
Speaker 2: its own eight budget. Germany itself ten point seven percent

132
00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 2: last year twenty twenty four, there's already a decline seven

133
00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,840
Speaker 2: point one percent decline already an international aid. This year

134
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,760
Speaker 2: we're looking at seventeen percent. So there is a global

135
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,240
Speaker 2: decline in international aid and to sadly see that crumble

136
00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,360
Speaker 2: overnight has a shocking effect.

137
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,200
Speaker 1: One thing Ero morns is the loss of expertise, the

138
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,720
Speaker 1: knowledge and skills at USAID and other aid agencies.

139
00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 2: Important staff on the ground collecting the data. They have

140
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,720
Speaker 2: a clear sense of where assistance is needed. They're seeing

141
00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,960
Speaker 2: the refugee flows to understand what's happening in the country,

142
00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,679
Speaker 2: and they're able to assess and prioritize where those needs are.

143
00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,040
Speaker 2: So that it happened so far so quickly, I think

144
00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,240
Speaker 2: is what's shocked a number of people.

145
00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,760
Speaker 1: It begs the question who will fill that vacuum? If

146
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,680
Speaker 1: you're describing and bearing in mind what you just said,

147
00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 1: which is its early days yet and everyone's still trying

148
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:48,880
Speaker 1: to assess what the impact is going to be. Are

149
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,720
Speaker 1: you seeing other states other groups assume some of that

150
00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 1: responsibility or see that as advantageous for them to do.

151
00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,840
Speaker 2: Look, let me say two things before answering your question.

152
00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,560
Speaker 2: I mean, look, it's been devastating, it's been shock and

153
00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,600
Speaker 2: when you think about the loss of significant aid. When

154
00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,839
Speaker 2: I think about the Civil Society Group INS, very local

155
00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,920
Speaker 2: civil Society Group INS in Sudan, and the work that

156
00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,160
Speaker 2: they were doing, how they quickly converted themselves to provide

157
00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:19,600
Speaker 2: kitchen soups, to provide humanity and aid where international agencies

158
00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,679
Speaker 2: couldn't get through. When I think about a support that's

159
00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,120
Speaker 2: been given by various actors in Gaza, when I just

160
00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,120
Speaker 2: think about the global scale of this. At the same time,

161
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,040
Speaker 2: I think there are a group of people who have

162
00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:39,000
Speaker 2: been watching the international aid industry, and I use that

163
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:44,920
Speaker 2: word very carefully, and I've been concerned about inefficiencies, about overbloatedness,

164
00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,840
Speaker 2: about the overlap, the duplicative nature of some of the

165
00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,320
Speaker 2: UN agencies, for example, So there was a number of

166
00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:57,679
Speaker 2: concerns and of course a big debate about reform as well.

167
00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 2: So I hope that what in mergers in the next

168
00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,800
Speaker 2: few years is a more resilient architecture that really is

169
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,400
Speaker 2: able to work with both local and regional actors as well.

170
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 1: You travel a lot and recently went to bangladest.

171
00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,000
Speaker 3: I am here at Coxis Bizarre in the southern eastern

172
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,479
Speaker 3: tip of Bangladesh on the border of Mihnmart to focus

173
00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,199
Speaker 3: on the world's largest refugee camp housing one point two

174
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,240
Speaker 3: million Bahingas who fled from Myanmar.

175
00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,720
Speaker 1: Could you describe what it looks like and maybe more

176
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,440
Speaker 1: than that, sort of what's happening there, what you saw

177
00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:34,000
Speaker 1: and why it's so.

178
00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. It wasn't until I landed in Cocsig's Bizarre that

179
00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:39,880
Speaker 2: I finally heard what they had been saying to me,

180
00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,360
Speaker 2: which was that this was the largest refugee camp in

181
00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,400
Speaker 2: the world. I was shocked by that.

182
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,000
Speaker 1: The vastness seven, yes, the vastness.

183
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,520
Speaker 2: But to be told that it was the largest refugee

184
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,360
Speaker 2: camp as well, because you know, having worked in Africa

185
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,080
Speaker 2: for many years and also lived in Nairobi, which was

186
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,640
Speaker 2: also the home for the largest camp because of Somalia.

187
00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,560
Speaker 2: This was a shock to me as well. So even

188
00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,360
Speaker 2: for me a crisis group where we spend a great

189
00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,760
Speaker 2: deal of our time warning international actors and thinking through

190
00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,320
Speaker 2: it was a reminder to me that you know that

191
00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,480
Speaker 2: out of the sort of the usual places that is

192
00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,079
Speaker 2: often in the headlines in terms of humanitarian displacement and

193
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,720
Speaker 2: refugee crisis, in terms of humanitarian catastrophe, it was a

194
00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,679
Speaker 2: reminder to me as well. And I had the opportunity

195
00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,320
Speaker 2: to visit the camp itself. I was there at a

196
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,480
Speaker 2: time where the debate was high about the future funding

197
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,840
Speaker 2: for the camp. I was there also at the time

198
00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,280
Speaker 2: when Bangladesh, of course, is going through its own transition.

199
00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,160
Speaker 1: In August of twenty twenty four, Bangladesh's Prime Minister, Sheik

200
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,560
Speaker 1: Hasina was ousted after fifteen years in power. The country

201
00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,160
Speaker 1: is currently being led by an interim government and the

202
00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,000
Speaker 1: next national elections are scheduled for February twenty twenty six.

203
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,720
Speaker 2: The question was how Bangladesh is going to manage its

204
00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,080
Speaker 2: transition and also deal with the Rahinga crisis that's on

205
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,960
Speaker 2: the border. So it was a moment to understand Bangladesh's

206
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,320
Speaker 2: own role, the fate of the UN that is going

207
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,880
Speaker 2: through liquidation crisis of its own, regardless of what's happened

208
00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,800
Speaker 2: to USA, but also watching the mushrooming of all these

209
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,880
Speaker 2: various non state actors in Me and Mah who have

210
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,680
Speaker 2: been able to resist the junta.

211
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 1: Since a twenty twenty one coup, a military junta has

212
00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,120
Speaker 1: ruled Me and mar but hundreds of armed groups within

213
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,800
Speaker 1: the country have resisted, carving out autonomous.

214
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,840
Speaker 2: Pockets, effectively states within a state, governing different parts of

215
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,080
Speaker 2: their society. But also in the midst of that, it's

216
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,480
Speaker 2: just the untold misery that you don't hear in the headlines,

217
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,640
Speaker 2: the sexual violations, the rape, the way in which young

218
00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:57,200
Speaker 2: men are recruited, and the sustainability of the war in

219
00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 2: these refugee camps as well. So it was a tsunami

220
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,120
Speaker 2: of issues that you could see. You could tell the

221
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,760
Speaker 2: story of me and mal just by being in that camp.

222
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,960
Speaker 2: Just listen to the voices was quite devastating as well.

223
00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:10,920
Speaker 1: I just want to wrap up by asking you about

224
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:12,600
Speaker 1: something you said at the top, and that is that

225
00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:18,240
Speaker 1: you've seen definitive empathy globally. Are you optimistic that will return.

226
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,400
Speaker 2: I think for us to get back to that level

227
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,840
Speaker 2: of empathy, the organizations like Crisis Group are going to

228
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,840
Speaker 2: be crucial in explaining why it matters why you should

229
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,960
Speaker 2: care about the crisises, not just the Gazas and the Ukraines,

230
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,559
Speaker 2: which have a sort of a larger international peace and security,

231
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,959
Speaker 2: but for humanity's sake as well. So I worry that

232
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,240
Speaker 2: it's going to be hard to regain that. I also say,

233
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:51,240
Speaker 2: thirty years ago liberal international order, the interventionist impulse that

234
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,120
Speaker 2: you saw for a number of Western countries. They are

235
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,120
Speaker 2: not necessarily on the front line in the way that

236
00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,200
Speaker 2: there are other actors that are involved as well. But

237
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,480
Speaker 2: even journalists are facing a picarious moment in their ability

238
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,960
Speaker 2: to get access. They're often blocked from being able to

239
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,760
Speaker 2: bring those stories to you as well. So I think

240
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,679
Speaker 2: even getting journalists to be able to do their work effectively,

241
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:20,160
Speaker 2: that's going to be crucial to the empathy. But societies themselves,

242
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,600
Speaker 2: societies that you'd often turn to for assistance, for aid,

243
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,200
Speaker 2: for support also going through their own crisis is as well.

244
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,440
Speaker 2: Some of these countries themselves require that aid to be

245
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,360
Speaker 2: turned inwards as well. You know, you've got the poverty

246
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,320
Speaker 2: in parts of the countries that we would often turn

247
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 2: to for assistance, I mean, rich advanced societies. They're going

248
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:45,320
Speaker 2: through different levels of crisiss migration, populism, a cost of

249
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,080
Speaker 2: living crisis, deficit crisis as well. More than any other time,

250
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,520
Speaker 2: it's very clear to me that there is now an

251
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,400
Speaker 2: overlap between the domestic of international. You have to be

252
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,520
Speaker 2: able to explain to your domestic constituency why it matters

253
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,280
Speaker 2: for you to be concerned about the fate of other

254
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,320
Speaker 2: civilians caught in crisises elsewhere.

255
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,280
Speaker 1: I imagine someone in your position could be tempted to

256
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,640
Speaker 1: despair looking at all that's happening around the world, and

257
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,440
Speaker 1: how do you forestall that from happening? What gives you

258
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,720
Speaker 1: grounds for optimism as you again survey the whole world

259
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,840
Speaker 1: and how many conforts are taking place all over it.

260
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:22,320
Speaker 2: Because I think in the end of the day, and

261
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,160
Speaker 2: it is the essence of crisis group that in every

262
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,400
Speaker 2: crisis there is a window of opportunity. The job of

263
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,920
Speaker 2: crisis group is to latch onto those windows and oh

264
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,160
Speaker 2: the door, and keep that door open, keep it open,

265
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,160
Speaker 2: and maybe wide it as well. And that's what keeps

266
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,640
Speaker 2: me hopeful because it's very easy to despair and that

267
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,840
Speaker 2: center of fatalism and you can't afford to have that.

268
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,000
Speaker 2: And also just watching my colleagues as well, and it's

269
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,560
Speaker 2: a privilege to wake up every morning to one hundred

270
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,400
Speaker 2: and fifty different people providing you with information, and not

271
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,680
Speaker 2: just information, but at the end of every piece of

272
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,040
Speaker 2: information what they see as the the possibilities and just

273
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,040
Speaker 2: the creativeness as well. And in the moment of despair

274
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,280
Speaker 2: and anxiety, that you have people who are willing to

275
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,840
Speaker 2: think through creatively what's possible. I don't have the right

276
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,560
Speaker 2: therefore to despair basically as well.

277
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 1: This is The Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gerra.

278
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,040
Speaker 1: To get more from The Big Take and unlimited access

279
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 1: to all of Bloomberg dot com, subscribe today at Bloomberg

280
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,280
Speaker 1: dot com slash podcast offer. If you like this episode,

281
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,600
Speaker 1: make sure to follow and review The Big Take wherever

282
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,240
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts. It helps people find the show.

283
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,800
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.