1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to steph you missed in history class from how 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry and Holly 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: So we don't normally start out with corrections. Very first 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 1: thing that I need to do that today. Okay, So 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: you remember our our pig war episode where we talked about, uh, 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: you know, a war that almost happened because of a 8 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: pig I do. I accidentally said in that episode that 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: somebody traveled via the Panama Canal to get out to 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: that part of the world. Ye, so that was wrong. 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: It was a little whoopsie Daisy. That was yes, that 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: was my source said via Panama, and my dumb brain 13 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: just filled in the part that says canal there. The 14 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: canal did not exist yet. I'm very sorry. Please stop 15 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: emailing us about you. Here's what I'm saying. If that's 16 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: the worst crime you commit, I think we're in pretty 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: good hands. I know, I think this is maybe like 18 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,919 Speaker 1: that was maybe the second hugest most email generating error 19 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: in the podcast. And I'm not even going to mention 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: what the other one was because we haven't gotten a 21 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,559 Speaker 1: message about it. And maybe six months, and it's from 22 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: years before we came on the show, like you getting 23 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: corrections about it when we started. So yes, I am 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: so sorry that I auto completed something that was not 25 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: built yet in the world. Uh. And I'll try not 26 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: to do that again. And today we're gonna talk about 27 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: something completely different. Yes, so just not long ago at all. 28 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: We asked on Facebook for people to tell us some 29 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: ideas of things that they wanted to talk about that 30 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: were events in history, because we have lots of episodes 31 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: about people, and some people prefer events, and for whatever reason, 32 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: whenever I sit down to do the podcast, my brain 33 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: turns up people a lot of so weird. Even if 34 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: I try to pick a subject that is not a 35 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: people and is an event eventually sort of as the 36 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: notes and the plot line are kind of playing out 37 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: as I'm doing my research, it almost always had the 38 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: focusing on one particular person that was part of it. 39 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's just some sort of brain 40 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: situation that it wants to focus on one smaller piece 41 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: or what, but it happens. It's tricky to pick an 42 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: event and not do that for me. Well, conveniently, the 43 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: event that people asked for the absolute most was the 44 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: Wreck of the Batavia, which at that point we had 45 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: already recorded and edited and it was just waiting to 46 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: be published. So that worked out really well. We delivered 47 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: so quickly without meeting to you. I know. We had 48 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: a couple of other things that were m maybe not 49 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: quite as much as heavily requested at that one, but 50 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: extremely frequently requested, And one of them is what we're 51 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: going to talk about today, which is the so called 52 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: Spanish flu epidemic of nineteen eighteen and nineteen nineteen. So 53 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: somewhere between twenty million and fifty million people died of 54 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: the flu during this epidemic, which started just as World 55 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: War One was winding down. So a lot of our 56 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: past episodes that are about diseases are really about the 57 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,399 Speaker 1: people who saved us from them. So like our smallpox 58 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: episode is all about Edward Jenner and his smallpox vaccine, 59 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: and our tuberculosis episode is all about Salmon Waxman and 60 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: Albert Shots and the discovery of streptomycin, which was the 61 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: first antibiotic that could treat it. Sarah and Deblinus episode 62 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: called Polio the Dread Disease is also largely about the 63 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: vaccines that have nearly eradicated polio from the world. But 64 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: the story of the flu pandemic of eighteen, nineteen, eighteen 65 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: and nineteen nineteen is not that has a lot more 66 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: in common with our episode about encephalitis lethargico, which also 67 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: happened right about the same time. Uh. The flu epidemic 68 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: is probably why a disease that was as crazy and 69 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: terrifying as in as encephalitis lethargic is not a better 70 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: known event in medical history. UH. The flu just completely 71 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: over out in it because it killed so many people. 72 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: But like encephalitis lethargica, the pandemic flu came and it went. 73 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: Nobody could treat it, nobody could cure it. A fifth 74 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: of the people in the world got the flu that 75 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: during the pandemic, and UH. Usually while the typical flu 76 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: is hardest on elderly people in the very young, this 77 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: time it was deadliest among year olds, and in that 78 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: age bracket it was so lethal that in the United States, 79 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: for example, the average life expectancy dropped by more than 80 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: a decade just as a result of how many people 81 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: died from the flu, which is scary. I feel like 82 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: I should confess that I have this completely unfounded fear 83 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: that I will die of a random flu. This is 84 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: also why we are doing the episode now and not 85 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: at the height of flu season, as we're exiting flu season. 86 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: I mean, every time might get the flu, my thought 87 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: is this is the one that's gonna take me down. 88 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: So hopefully I won't have any panic attacks while we record. Yeah, 89 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: I will keep my fingers crossed. So before we start, though, 90 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: we should talk a little bit about what the world 91 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: of medicine and what public health were like in nineteen eighteen. 92 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: So in many parts of the world, nations hadn't really 93 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: standardized or regulated what was required for a person to 94 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: call themselves a doctor, so people practiced medicine with all 95 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: kinds of different credentials or with no credentials, and patent 96 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: medicines which really didn't have any medical value. And we're 97 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: mostly alcohol and ladana most of the time, we're still 98 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: pretty prevalent. There was a lot of stuff floating around 99 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: that was just not legitimate for treating anything. And at 100 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: this point, Alexander Fleming had not yet discovered penicillin. That 101 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: was still a decade away, and its use as a 102 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: drug was even further out than that. So penicillin wouldn't 103 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: have helped fight the flu, since influenza is a virus 104 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: and penicillin kills bacteria, but it might have helped some 105 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: of the people who wound up with bacterial pneumonia after 106 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: contracting the flu. And this is more just to sort 107 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: of point out a milestone of where we were in 108 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: medicine when this flu epidemic was happening. Yeah, So in 109 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: spite of some of these things that we think of 110 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: as basics today, like requiring people to be trained to 111 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: call themselves doctors and antibiotics and things like that, things 112 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: had really advanced a lot in the world of medicine 113 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: over the past century. Before the epidemics started, most parts 114 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: of the industrialized world at this point had understood and 115 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: accepted the germ theory of disease. So at this point 116 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: pretty much everyone was on the same page in most places, 117 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: uh that germs cause disease, and doctors had also figured 118 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: out exactly which germs caused a number of diseases, including tuberculosis, malaria, 119 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: and cholera. The idea of a reportable disease, or one 120 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: so dangerous that all cases of it needed to be 121 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: reported to government authorities also existed, but even though there 122 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: had been another serious flu epidemic a couple of decades before, 123 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: influenza wasn't really reportable in most places until this particular 124 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: epidemic had really gotten dire, and at that point it 125 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: was too late for warning the government to do really 126 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: any good. Yeah, what they already knew there was a 127 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: big problem. By the time people were able to start saying, hey, 128 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: there is a big problem. Vaccines also existed. There was 129 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: a vaccine for smallpox, there was a vaccine for rabies. 130 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: Other vaccines were also in the works, and people really 131 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: thought as the as the epidemic got going that a 132 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: vaccine for the flu was just around the corner. As 133 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: we talked about in the encephalitis lethargica episode, though, figuring 134 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: out how to make a vaccine for a disease when 135 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: you don't know what's causing the disease is really hard, 136 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: and not only did doctors not know what was causing 137 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: the flu, they also had it pinned on a completely 138 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: different germ. They thought it had a totally different cause 139 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: than it really did have. So at the start of 140 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: the epidemic, the purported culprit for the flu was a 141 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: bacterium that had been named Piper's basilius after its discoverer, 142 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: who was a German scientist named Robert Friedrich Peifer, and 143 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: he made the connection between his baxillus and the flu, 144 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: but he hadn't really proved this connection, and as the 145 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: epidemic war on, it became abundantly clear that Piper was wrong. 146 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: The baxilus he discovered was not present in sick patients, 147 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: and deliberately exposing people to it didn't give them the flu. 148 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: So even though an international team was dedicated to trying 149 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: to create a vaccine, none of their work proved effective, 150 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: and at first uh they were after the wrong germ, 151 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: and then they didn't have a good starting point. So 152 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: all of this together combines to mean that when the 153 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: flu turned really deadly in nineteen eighteen, there was not 154 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: much that legitimate doctors could do for their patients besides 155 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: to keep them in bed and keep them as fed 156 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: and hydrated and comfortable as possible. The most most of 157 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: the things that had any efficacy at all were about prevention, 158 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: which basically involved keeping the sick people quarantined and trying 159 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: to educate people about how to keep themselves from being 160 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: exposed and doctors knew that the flu was spread by 161 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: coughing and sneezing, so they gave the common sense advice 162 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: about covering your nose and mouth and staying away from 163 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: people who were coughing and sneezing. Oh, and also telling 164 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: people not to spit on the ground. So don't spit 165 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: on the ground please. You know, their debates over whether 166 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: that's a civil way to behave in general, but uh, 167 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: sick people don't spread no, no spitting. It's gross and 168 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: it spreads illness. So there were also a lot of 169 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: public health campaigns that were trying to get people who 170 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: were sick to stay at home, which probably sounds kind 171 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: of familiar to when there's a big flu outbreak today. Uh. 172 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: They especially, we're trying to educate people who were sick 173 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 1: to get them to stay away from crowds. And businesses 174 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: got in on the deal to trying to warn people 175 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: who were ill to go home. So a sign at 176 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: one theater in Chicago read influenza frequently complicated with pneumonia 177 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: is prevalent at this time throughout America. This theater is 178 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: cooperating with the Department of Health. You must do the 179 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: same if you have a cold and are coughing and sneezing, 180 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: do not enter this theater. And then, in all capital letters, 181 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: go home and go to bed until you are well. 182 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: That seems wise. Not all of the advice on prevention 183 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: was sound, though. Many people in public health recommended that 184 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: people wear masks, and some places even required that masks 185 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: be warned by law, but this was in fact not effective. Yeah, 186 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: masks are kind of effective when there's bacteria involved, but 187 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: when it's a virus, the viruses are just too small. 188 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: Before we get into how this disease spread and where 189 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: it was first reported and all that, let's take a 190 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: brief moment for a word from a sponsor, So back 191 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: to exactly what happened when this disease made its debut. 192 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: The first reports of flu in this pandemic came in 193 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: May of nineteen eighteen in Europe, and the first reports 194 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: were amongst soldiers, so large numbers of otherwise healthy young 195 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: troops were just becoming really ill with flu like symptoms. 196 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: So they were getting coughing and sneezing and body aches. 197 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 1: Most of them were recovering within a few days. And 198 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: apart from the fact that this was disrupting a war, 199 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: it was not a really big deal, but then the 200 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: disease jumped from the military to civilians in Europe, and 201 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: from there it spread to most of the rest of 202 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: the world over the course of just a couple of months. 203 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: It was still a relatively mild disease, much like the 204 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: seasonal flu most of us have had at one time 205 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: or another in our lives. It wasn't pleasant, but it 206 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: was also not especially alarming. This disease faded away later 207 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: in the summer, but then in August it mutated and 208 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: became really a lot more serious. This terrifying strain of 209 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: the flu was reported in Boston, Massachusetts in the United States, 210 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: in Freetown, Sierra Leone, and then Breast, France, and these 211 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: were all port cities, so it's possible that the disease 212 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: had spread between three of them on ships. And this time, 213 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: along with the typical flu symptoms of coughing and sneezing 214 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: and a sore throad and body aches, the disease caused 215 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: very high fevers between a hundred and two and a 216 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: hundred five degrees Fahrenheim. Patients felt exhausted and their eyes 217 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: became bloodshot, and some even had severe nosebleeds or gastro 218 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 1: intestinal problems. Even though this flu was a lot worse 219 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: from the flu that had spread earlier in the spring, 220 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: A lot of people still recovered, but a pretty substantial 221 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: portion of people developed a devastating pneumonia, which was caused 222 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: by one of a number of bacteria. It was a 223 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: secondary infection that was like a complication of this flu. 224 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: Their lungs filled up with fluid and started hemorrhaging, and 225 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: death often came alarmingly fast, with people going from sitting 226 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: upright and talking to being dead within hours. See, these 227 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: are the stories that make me paranoid about the flu. 228 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: This is this is why I read an article when 229 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: I was working on this about that episode of the 230 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: about the flu pandemic that was in the Down n 231 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: Abbey TV show. Yeah, so spoiler alert for Down n Abbey. 232 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: It's similarly, uh, make some people in the household really 233 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 1: really sick, and it has one There's one particular character 234 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: who goes from being she's sick, she's has she has 235 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: the flu. She goes from I'm sick with the flu 236 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: two I'm dead end an episode which is not uncommon 237 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: for TV, but also was really how it worked so 238 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 1: when doctors performed autopsies on these patients who had died, 239 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: they found out their lungs and their spleens were just 240 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: grotesquely swollen. So a description from a doctor who was 241 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: stationed at Fort Devan's outside Boston from that September, here's 242 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: what he had to say. This epidemic started about four 243 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: weeks ago and has developed so rapidly that the camp 244 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: is demoralized and all ordinary work is held up till 245 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: it has passed. These men start with what appears to 246 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: be an ordinary attack of la grippa or influenza, and 247 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: when brought to the hosp so abbreviation for hospital. When 248 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: brought to the hosp they very rapidly developed the most 249 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: biscus type of pneumonia that has ever been seen. Two 250 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: hours after admission they have the mahogany spots over the cheekbones, 251 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: and a few hours later you can begin to see 252 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: the cyanosis extending from their ears and spreading all over 253 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: the face, until it is hard to distinguish the colored 254 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: men from the white. It is only a matter of 255 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: a few hours then until death comes, and it is 256 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: simply a struggle for air until they suffocate. It is horrible. 257 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: One can stand to see one, two or twenty men die, 258 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: but to see these poor devils dropping like flies sort 259 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: of gets on your nerves. We have been averaging about 260 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: one deaths per day and and still keeping it up. 261 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: There is no doubt in my mind there is a 262 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: new mixed infection here, but what I don't know. And 263 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: from the ports cities where this really started sort of 264 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: blossoming outward, the disease spread really rapidly over the next 265 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: couple of months. It spread all over the world, and 266 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: then it too faded out. Although another mild wave of 267 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: flu went on around early nine, it's hard to pinpoint 268 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: exactly how many people died during the pandemic. Medical records 269 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: from the era were already kind of sketchy even before 270 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: you threw a devastating pandemic into the mix. To make 271 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: things even more chaotic. Doctors often misdiagnosed milder forms of 272 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: the flu was common colds, and sometimes they diagnosed this 273 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: much more serious version as another disease entirely like cholera. 274 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: The disease also moved so quickly that public health agencies 275 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: could not accurately track what was happening. So in the 276 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: decade after the pandemic, the estimated global death toll was 277 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: a million people, but modern researchers who have gone back 278 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: and tried to reconstruct things have marked the number as 279 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: much higher, between thirty million and fifty million people died worldwide. 280 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: So that sort of leaves us to wonder why this 281 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: particular flu was so incredibly bad. Uh. We know that 282 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: the war often takes a giant share of the blame 283 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: for the spread of the flu pandemic, and it's definitely 284 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: true that the flu followed the troops and that it 285 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: spread like wildfire amongst soldiers in close quarters, and the 286 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: soldiers returning home from the war brought the disease with them. 287 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: Battlefield injuries and other illnesses also made it harder for 288 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: soldiers to fight off the flu, so camps for the 289 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: war were basically like flu incubators. It's also definitely true 290 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: that the war meant that a lot of the medical 291 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: personnel who were trained at the time had been tasked 292 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: to help with the military, and so they were not 293 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: available to help the civilian population. As the epidemics started 294 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: to spread, communities in more rural areas asked their various 295 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: government organizations to please send doctors and nurses to help them, 296 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: but often the few who weren't part of the war 297 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: effort fell victim to the flu themselves while they were 298 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: traveling to their patients. But it really it wasn't just 299 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,479 Speaker 1: about the soldiers or the effects of the war. Even 300 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: if the epidemic had happened during peacetime, hospitals just wouldn't 301 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: have been able to handle the influx of so many patients. 302 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: Temporary hospitals had to be built in churches and schools 303 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: and community centers, and some hospitals even expanded their capacity 304 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: by housing their patients intents on hospital grounds. And the 305 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: way of life in the late nineteen teens also played 306 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 1: a big role in the spread of the disease. Cars 307 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: were not in widespread use at this point, and many 308 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: larger cities around the world had developed extensive public transportation systems, 309 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: so that was bringing sick and healthy people into contact 310 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: with each other on street cars, on trolleys, and on subways, 311 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: and several parts of the world people were also traveling 312 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,479 Speaker 1: really extensively by train, so, for example, in the United States, 313 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: train travel peaked in nineteen twenty, just a year after 314 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: the epidemic, and these long trips in close quarters. Similarly, 315 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: UH fueled the spread of the disease. Some of the 316 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: most popular leisure activities in nineteen eighteen and nineteen nineteen 317 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: also drew big crowds. So movie theaters have become affordable. 318 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: They were extremely popular, and they were very widespread. They 319 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: were everywhere, and that made them a hot bed of 320 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: infection UH. There were also dance halls and amusement parks, 321 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: and in many places governments restricted activities or shut them 322 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: down entirely to try to keep people from gathering. Some 323 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: towns even canceled school UH and canceled church services, and 324 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: universities suspended their operations in an effort to just sort 325 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: of stop this spread that was going on everywhere people gathered. 326 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: Cities also shut down or restricted their public transportation systems 327 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: that were at this point so popular, and drivers, either 328 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: with their city's authority or acting on their own, would 329 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: refuse to carry passengers who weren't wearing masks or who 330 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: they suspected to be ILL. And although all of these 331 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: factors have been about industry, people in rural and developing 332 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,719 Speaker 1: areas were not spared in the least in the United States, 333 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: the Eskimo population was disproportionately hit with the flu, and 334 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: in rural and developing areas, people were left with no 335 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: medical care and very little reliable information about what was 336 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: actually going on or what they could possibly do about it. 337 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: The lore, which took so much of the blame for 338 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: spreading the disease, wound up ultimately killing sixteen million people, 339 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: but that number was just dwarfed by the total death 340 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: toll from the flu. So before we talk about the 341 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: aftermath of of this devastation, let's take another brief moment 342 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: and have a word from a sponsor, so to to 343 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: get back to the aftermath of this this flu pandemic. 344 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: On top of the astounding loss of life, the flu 345 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: pandemic had a lot of economic and social impacts. So 346 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: many people were sick that public and municipal services completely 347 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: shut down because there was nobody left to do the work. 348 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: Garbage was piling up in the streets in cities were 349 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: sanitation workers were particularly hard hit. Telegraph systems failed when 350 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: there were not enough operators that were healthy enough to 351 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: come into work. Kind of reminds me of stories about 352 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: the Black Death and how so many people would die 353 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: that there was no one left to bury them. Yeah. 354 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: Small businesses went bankrupt because their proprietors became too sick 355 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: to work or they died, And then insurance companies also 356 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: went bankrupt because their incoming claims skyrocketed. If trains were 357 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: found to have sick people aboard, stations along the routes 358 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: would actually forbid them from stopping. So even the ones 359 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: that we're working were subject to some you know, limitation. Yeah, 360 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: and then that trickled down with its own effects of 361 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: people not being able to get to where they needed 362 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: to go. The public was also often really genuinely panicked, 363 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: and government took steps to try to maintain calm, including 364 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: trying to filter or suppress information about the pandemic. So 365 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: the telegraph was one of the primary modes of communication 366 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: at this point. The telephone had been invented, but it 367 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: was still extremely expensive, not at all prevalent in places 368 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: that weren't very affluent or places that were rural, so 369 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people were relying completely on the telegraph 370 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,239 Speaker 1: to communicate with people over long distances. Telegraphs ran on 371 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: a network of human operators who were privy to everything 372 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: that was being transmitted because they were the ones that 373 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: were sending out the codes. So in the United States, 374 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: for example, the Public Health Service gave all of its 375 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: officers codebooks to use anytime they were sending information about 376 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: the pandemic, so the tele the telegraph operators wouldn't be 377 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,719 Speaker 1: able to figure out what was being said and go 378 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: spread alarm among other people. And once it was all over, 379 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: perhaps because it had been so terrifying, and perhaps because 380 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: it came on the heels of a war that had 381 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: stretched on for years, most bowl really just seemed to 382 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,959 Speaker 1: want to forget that the whole thing had happened, and 383 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: so for a long time, research into its cause and 384 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: its progression we're actually quite minimal. In October of nineteen eighteen, 385 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: so as the epidemic was still going on, doctors began 386 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: to correctly theorize that the flu was caused by a 387 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: virus and not a bacteria. But influenza A virus wasn't 388 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: isolated until many years later, in nineteen thirty three. Influenza 389 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: A is what causes most epidemic strains of the flu 390 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: to other types. Influenza B and C weren't isolated until 391 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: nineteen forty and nineteen fifty, respectively, and the vaccine didn't 392 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: come around until nineteen four, and because the flu mutates 393 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: every year, the vaccine has to change every year to 394 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: keep up. This is why the vaccine provides better protection 395 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: some years than others, because some years it's just a 396 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: better match to what's actually happening, and it keeps up 397 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: with the mutation right. Other, although less deadly pandemics also 398 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: followed and nine teen fifty seven and fifty eight, and 399 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: then again in nineteen sixty eight and sixty nine. There 400 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: was also the H one and one swine flu pandemic 401 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine, and other flu seasons have also 402 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: had the potential to turn into pandemic flu, but ultimately didn't. 403 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: Scientists continue to study the nineteen eighteen nineteen nineteen pandemic 404 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: to try to figure out exactly what made it so 405 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: bad in the hopes of preventing another uh similar situation 406 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: in the future. They've done things like tried to reverse 407 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: engineer the genes of the nineteen eighteen version of the 408 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: flu and try to figure out what modern drugs might 409 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: be effective against something like that. In two thousand five, 410 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: researchers sequenced the genome of the flu virus. They used 411 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: samples from the body of an Inuit woman who had 412 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: been buried in a mass grave after the flu killed 413 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: ninety percent of her village, and according to this research, 414 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: the flu came from an H one and one avian virus. 415 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: The sort of scientific verdicts then has flipped back and 416 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: forth a little about whether the pandemic flew came from 417 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: an avian or a swine origin, and then in February 418 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: of uh an article published in the journal Nature put 419 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: the primary theory back to being an avian origin. In January, 420 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: historian Mark Humphreys published a paper in the journal War 421 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: in History theorizing a potential cause for the pandemic. During 422 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: World War One, ninety six thousand Chinese workers were transported 423 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: by rail to work on the Western Front. He found 424 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: medical records describing a respiratory virus that broke out in 425 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: southern China the year before, one that Chinese officials later 426 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: said was identical to the so called Spanish flu. About 427 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: three thousand of the workers were quarantined with flu like symptoms. 428 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: Racist doctors called the sick workers lazy and then sent 429 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: them back to their camps, and at the time of 430 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: his papers publication, he was waiting on test results from 431 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 1: samples for confirmation. Yeah, this is one of those things 432 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: where at least according to everything that I was reading 433 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: about it, uh, tests should confirm this theory. But at 434 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: this point a lot of people are like, yeah, that 435 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense. Um, So obviously that means 436 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: that this had nothing really to do with Spain. We've 437 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: left this for the end that the name Spanish flu 438 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: only came about because Spain's press was uncensored at the time, 439 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: so most of the earliest information that people got about 440 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,959 Speaker 1: the illness came from Spain, where people weren't restricting the 441 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: information that was published about it. So it really got 442 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: its unfortunate association just by the fact that they were 443 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: the most informative. They were being the least obbus skating 444 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 1: about what was happening. So, yeah, this whole story is 445 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: really alarming to me. I have, or I had when 446 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: I was young. I had a living great grandfather who 447 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: was born in Undread, and so things didn't seem like 448 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: they were in the distant past to me until they 449 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: had happened before he had been born. So when I 450 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: was little, the fact that this whole thing had happened 451 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: while he was alive, I was like, this could happen 452 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: again right now because that is an extremely recent past 453 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: and now as an adult, I still think this could 454 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: really happen again right now. But it's not because of 455 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: like the state of medical knowledge is just because viruses 456 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: can be terrifying. Yeah, Like I said, I have a 457 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: completely irrational level of fear of the flu. I don't 458 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: know why. I don't know where that came from. It's 459 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: just it's irrational. Exercise caution, I would say my level 460 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: of fear of it is irrational. Okay, that that maybe 461 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: maybe I know some one of those things I won't overshare. 462 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: But last week I had a brief visit from food poisoning, 463 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: and I immediately my brain started whirling with that, Oh 464 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: my gosh, no, what if this is some really terrible 465 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: version of the flu and I will be pay zero. 466 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: It's irrational. Yeah, I think the thing that's made me 467 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: most afraid of illnesses like this is a game that 468 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: I've played on the iPad called Plague Incorporated, where basically 469 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: you try to make your plague kill everyone in the world, 470 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: and like there's there are ways you can do it 471 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: where it just basically spreads silently among everyone and then 472 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: it turns completely deadly, and whenever I see that happen, 473 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: I'm like that that could happen. It could really happen. 474 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: I like how your entertainment choices are reinforcing your fears. 475 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: That's really good. Sometimes that's what happens. Yes, do you 476 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: have listener mail? I do have listener mail. This listener 477 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: mail is from Sarah, and she says I love the 478 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: podcast and have written before when you two were doing 479 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: pop stuff. I really enjoyed your episode on foot finding 480 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: and couldn't help, but wonder if other cultures might view 481 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: our Western custom of circumcision in the same light. I 482 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: know it has a deep religious meeting for many people, 483 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: but the typical surgery done in a hospital doesn't follow 484 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: Jewish guidelines for circumcision. Babies of don't remember the procedure 485 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: and will heal better than adults choosing to undergo the 486 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: operation if it is. But it is still a cosmetic 487 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: procedure that can't really be reversed, and it's given without 488 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: consent of the child. I know some men whish they 489 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: weren't circumcised and feel they didn't get a say in 490 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: the matter, and in recent years many people have advocated 491 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: against it. I personally haven't made up my mind about it, 492 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: but there are strong arguments on both sides. Maybe if 493 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: I have children, I will have to make a decision. 494 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: It's still hard for me to think that I might 495 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: permanently change boy's body just because it is a cultural norm. 496 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: I should point out that I don't believe circumcision is 497 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: in any way as life altering as the act of footbinding, 498 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: but that it is something for our society to consider. 499 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: And then she sent some show ideas. So I think 500 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: this was like one of the most uh reasoned emails 501 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: about circumcision that we got after the footbinding episode. Yeah, 502 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: it's a topic people feel very passionately about, and we 503 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: got a lot of emails about it. We owe a 504 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: lot that some of them were extremely screaming at us. 505 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: So here is why I can't I'm not sure if 506 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: it was you or B who said there's not really 507 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: a modern equivalent of this in the West, uh, but 508 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: I think we both pretty much felt that and feel 509 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: that you're doing the episode. So here is why I 510 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: did not put circumcision into the same category as footbinding. 511 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: So both of them are they're performed or were are 512 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: or were performed on children. Without their consent. They are 513 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: not medically uh critical. There are some arguments about medical 514 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: benefits of circumcision, but it's like not something that it's 515 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: an elective procedure. That's a good way to put it. Um, 516 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: And they do change up person's body, But circumcision is 517 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:54,479 Speaker 1: not ingrained into American culture the way that footbinding is, 518 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: Like it was pretty much the thing to do with 519 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: baby boys for many years. Uh, but that did not 520 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: mean that baby boys who were not circumcised were ineligible 521 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: to be married. Yeah, I mean footbinding. We talked about 522 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: it in the episode. If a family had chosen not 523 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: to bind the feet of their daughter, they were sort 524 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: of condemning her to a pretty rough life, like she 525 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: would basically automatically be on one of the lowest runks 526 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: of society, right. Um. There's also a lot of really 527 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: contradictory research about exactly what affect that circumcision does or 528 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: does not have on, for example, a man's sexual health. Um. 529 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: There are pros and cons in the the things that 530 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: are like medical benefits, like it, it appears that being 531 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:46,479 Speaker 1: circumcised lowers the risk of HIV TRANSI transmission. Um like 532 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: their their arguments on both sides of that. Footbinding, on 533 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: the other hand, has zero medical value at all whatsoever, 534 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: and is crippling. So Yeah, and we talked about in 535 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: that episode that they they found that women that had 536 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: had their feet bound later on in their in their 537 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: older years had a higher instance of osteoporosis than women 538 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: that did not. Yeah, And I think it's possible that 539 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: a hundred years from now or five hundred years from 540 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: now or something like that, it's entirely possible that culture 541 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: will look back on circumcision and make the equation that, yes, 542 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: it was just as bad as as footbinding. But like, 543 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: we're not at that point in culture or history yet. 544 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: Like there are some parallels, but I cannot at all 545 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: say that they are equivalent. Well, and the other thing 546 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: to consider is that, unlike footbinding, whether or not a 547 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: man is circumcised is not immediately obvious to passers by 548 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: in the street. Um Whereas women that were caught in 549 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: that middle ground that we talked about, after footbinding had 550 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: been outlawed and fallen out of favor but still had 551 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: their feet bound, people were taunting them and in some 552 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: times assault them in the street because they could obviously 553 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: see that they were part of this older tradition that 554 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: was now not in favor. Yeah, Whereas that would not 555 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: be the case if circumcisions suddenly were completely eradicated as 556 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: a practice and that had sort of legacy. Circumcisions are 557 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: not going to get taunted in the street because people 558 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: will not know. I think too in my mind, for 559 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: something to be equivalent to uh, to fit binding, it 560 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: would have to be simultaneously crippling performed on children without 561 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: their consent and so ingrained in a culture that that 562 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: we're moving it from. That culture had would have all 563 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: kinds of other ramifications. So a lot of the other 564 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: suggestions that people wrote into us about things that they 565 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: were like, well, what about women wearing high heel shoes 566 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: that can deform their body? Like that is adults making 567 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: a choice themselves. Uh. And you know, if you don't 568 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: wear high heel shoes, that doesn't mean you're going to 569 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: be socially outcasts for the rest of your life. So 570 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: it has to fit all of those things at the 571 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: same time for me to say, okay, yet that would 572 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: be a modern equivalent. Yeah, and I in us saying 573 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: there's not a modern equivalent. It's not to diminish the 574 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: discussion that people are having about issues like circumcision, but 575 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: it just it doesn't meet the same criteria right, So yes, 576 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: if you would like to write to us about this 577 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: or any other subject, we are at History Podcast at 578 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: Discovery dot com. We're also on Facebook at facebook dot 579 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: com slash miss in history and on Twitter at miss 580 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: in History. Are tumbler is missed in History dot tumbler 581 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: dot com, and our pentterestes pinterest dot com slash missed 582 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: in History. 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