1 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a 5 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to 6 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: find a therapist in your area, visit our website at 7 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love 8 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not 9 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a 10 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for 11 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: joining me for session three point fifteen of the Therapy 12 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation 13 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. When it comes to 14 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: dating outside of our race, black women are up against 15 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: cultural stigmas, thoughts of missing out on black love, fear 16 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: of losing our black cord, and disapproval from family, friends, 17 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,839 Speaker 1: and social media. How many of these sentiments against interracial 18 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: dating are reasonable things to consider, and how many are 19 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: blocking us from finding what could be true love. To 20 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: answer these questions and more, I'm joined by doctor Racine Henry. 21 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: Doctor Henry is a licensed marriage and family therapist whose 22 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: practice focuses on black, interracial, and non monogamous couples. Based 23 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: in New York. She is the founder of Sankofa Marriage 24 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: and family therapy, creator of the Appaletate for Love series, 25 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: and a member of the core faculty at the Family 26 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: Institute at Northwestern University. In our conversation, Doctor Henry and 27 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: I unpacked both the common and unanticipated conflicts experienced in 28 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: interracial relationships, things to consider before and while in an 29 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: interracial relationship, and how to navigate disapproval from family, friends, 30 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: and society at large. If something resonates with you while 31 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social 32 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: media using the hashtag TBG in session, or join us 33 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: over in the sister Circle to talk more about the episode. 34 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls 35 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for 36 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: joining us today, Doctor Henry. 37 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, Doctor Jord's pleasure. 38 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: So you are a licensed marriage and family therapist, Can 39 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 1: you talk to us a little bit about your practice 40 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: and who you see? 41 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: Sure? So, I have a practice called Sankofa manage your 42 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: family therapy here in New York City, and I primarily 43 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 2: treat black couples, interracial couples, non monogamous couples, but I 44 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: do have a good number of individual clients who are 45 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: also people of color. I purposefully and intentionally wanted to 46 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: market my practice towards the minority community after working for 47 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 2: a number of years in a rather white, homogeneous community 48 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 2: and wanting to serve people who look like me. 49 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about how you started 50 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: working specifically with interracial couples. 51 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: So that happens really by accident. I never really intended 52 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 2: to be an interracial couples therapist, but when working with 53 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: black couples and other minority groups, I found that they 54 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: would refer me to their friends who had partners that 55 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: were not black. So in every interracial couple they've treated, 56 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: there's been one black partner and then one partner that 57 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: was other. And some of it came about because of 58 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: different media opportunities that I had contributing to articles about 59 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: interracial couples or mostly how to help family and friends 60 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: deal with their loved one being in an interracial couple. 61 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: I did a CBS Sunday Morning piece with Rita brave 62 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: about interracial marriages and how our current socio political climate 63 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: has not really progressed much since Loving Versus Virginia ruling 64 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 2: all those years ago, And since then, I've gotten a 65 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: lot more people coming to me wanting me to help 66 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 2: them navigate their interracial relationship, but again also helping people 67 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 2: around them deal with their choice to be with someone 68 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 2: who's not of the same race as they are. 69 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. So I didn't expect you to say 70 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: that you were working with people to help their family 71 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: and loved one support or not support who they have 72 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: chosen to be in a relationship with. Can you talk 73 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: to me a little bit about like some of the 74 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: concerns that come up there. 75 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, So ironically, most times people are surprised that their 76 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: loved ones have an issue with their partner, and how 77 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 2: it usually comes about is when they either get married 78 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: or when they have a child together. When those two 79 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 2: milestones happen, I think is when the family and friends 80 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 2: externally feel like, oh, this relationship is serious. It's not 81 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 2: just a phase. It's not going to pass by. It's 82 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: on a casual thing, but there's a significant element to 83 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 2: the relationship that now triggers our long held belief system 84 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: or our true feelings about their partner. And so this 85 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: couple is celebrating something joyous for them, either a childbirth 86 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: or pregnancy, or engagement or marriage, and then they're finding 87 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 2: that grandma or their best friend or their parents are upset. 88 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: And so that's usually the crux of the issue, right, 89 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 2: is that we thought they were supportive, we thought they 90 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: were fine with it all along. They've been cordial or friendly, 91 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: we've had holidays, and time has passed, and now the 92 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 2: real issues are arising. 93 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: It's interesting, Doctor Henry, because of course, I'm sure there 94 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: have been these kinds of concerns for a very long time, 95 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: But it feels like in between twenty sixteen, after the 96 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:56,679 Speaker 1: election that year until Biden was elected, we got lots 97 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: of questions from TVG community members around having difficult conversations 98 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: with like in laws or it's seen that like people 99 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: recently learned that their in laws were racist, and I'm wondering, like, 100 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: were people not having those conversations before, Like I'm sure 101 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: you also saw this in your practice. Can you talk 102 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: a little bit about that time period and maybe even 103 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: where we find ourselves now and how that may be 104 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: changing the landscape or interracial relationships. 105 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 2: Yes, I've definitely noticed since the Biden election, but also 106 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 2: during Lockdown is when I had the most interracial couples 107 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 2: coming to me. And I think to your point, it 108 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 2: was that they couldn't really avoid those conversations anymore. Right, 109 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: there were so many things happening socially, with all the 110 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 2: different killings we can name of black people by white 111 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: people or police officers. And then I think being in 112 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 2: close proximity for that long and not being able to 113 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: have the diversions of work or friends or outside influences, 114 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: that people were sort of compelled to have these discussions 115 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 2: that things were coming up, whether they were sheltered in 116 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 2: place with their interracial partner or with generations in one household, 117 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 2: and having to confront some of the things that were 118 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: always underlying but are now bubbling up to the surface. 119 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: I think that people have always felt like, while my 120 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: mom or grandma may have made that comment, but that's 121 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: not how they really feel, right. They sort of brush 122 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 2: it off, were able to convince themselves that it was 123 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: a minor issue. But I mean, you bring it literally 124 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: into your home, it's unavoidable. Only so many comments can 125 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: be made before there's a question asked, or depending on 126 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 2: your partner and their temperament, maybe they're the ones to 127 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: confront the people or person that everyone else let's have 128 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: a pass to say that ignorance or racist comment. And 129 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: so I definitely noticed that during the lockdown, and since, 130 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: I've had definitely an uptick in interracial couples coming to 131 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 2: therapy and wanting to really talk about what happened last 132 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 2: Christmas or what happens every year at this time, or 133 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 2: why does your mother only talk to me about black 134 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: related things and issues like that. 135 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting to hearing because I'm listening to 136 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: you talk, and I'm aware that as therapists we're often 137 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: talking about this like, Okay, we can only work with 138 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: the people in the room, right, you can't do therapy 139 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: for racist grandma. I'm wondering what that looks like then, 140 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: when it seems like so many of the concerns are 141 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: actually coming from family members who you know, maybe hold 142 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: these beliefs that the partner maybe does not. 143 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, one thing I love about being an MFT 144 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: specifically is my training was really systemic focus, right, and 145 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 2: so even if we had one person in the room, 146 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 2: we're looking at where they come from. So who do 147 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: they belong to, the family of origin, the family of creation, 148 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 2: what communities that are in, what the work environment is like, 149 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 2: and so having that systemic and relational approach really helps 150 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 2: in this context because even though we don't have Grandma 151 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 2: in the room, we can talk about what do you 152 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: feel when Grandma comes around, how do you navigate those 153 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 2: moments with her, What does it cost you to maybe 154 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 2: have some cut off with Grandma or limit your access 155 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: to her, And how can you sort of pull on 156 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: those resources and people that do make you feel good 157 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 2: and that do scaffold your relationship to sort of offset 158 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 2: possibly losing Grandma as a person in your life or 159 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 2: not having her in the same role as she's always 160 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 2: played in your life. 161 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: So what are some of the aspects you feel like 162 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: people overlook when they decide to be in interracial relationships. 163 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: I think people always overlook how hurtful it will be 164 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: when the people they love the most react to their 165 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: relationship in a negative way. I think they assume that 166 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 2: the relationship will be enough to safeguard them from those 167 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 2: hurt feelings, or that the loved ones will come around 168 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 2: or make an exception because of how much they care 169 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: about that individual, when in reality, feelings as strong as 170 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: racism or other ignorances like that, they often can't be 171 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 2: hidden for too long or at all. And again, if 172 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 2: your partner is not someone who's going to ignore the 173 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 2: snide comment or look the other way, then they're going 174 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 2: to a lot of confrontations. And so I think when 175 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 2: it comes to race and things that can be race 176 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: or ethnicity related, people think that saying the PC thing 177 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: is enough, or if we just don't discuss race and politics, 178 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: or if we just don't invite that one time member 179 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 2: to the function, then there won't be a problem. But 180 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: often those values and belief systems aren't held by one person, right, 181 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: They're supported by the unit, by the family or the community. 182 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: And so that person may be the spokesperson for the feeling, 183 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 2: but everyone else may have traces of it that they 184 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: express in different ways. So by not confronting it or 185 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 2: challenging it, you're enabling it essentially, and that often comes 186 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 2: at a head when the person you love is that 187 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 2: topic of conversation. 188 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: So do you find most often that what happens is 189 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: that the partner who is not black ends up having 190 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: to cut off family members or discontinues to be like 191 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: a stressor for the couple. 192 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: It depends on what they're willing to risk for the relationship. 193 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: I've seen it go both ways, where the relationship ends 194 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 2: because of the pressure of not being willing to cut 195 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: off the family members or the friends. And I've also 196 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 2: seen where they've had to adjust to not having grandmother 197 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: or uncle or the mom in their lives. It comes 198 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 2: at a cost, though, if those family members are contributing 199 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: to their lifestyle, right, if they're financially dependent on them, 200 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: if they live with them, if they rely on them 201 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 2: for child's care or other sort of resources. It's not 202 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 2: as simple as Okay, we'll talk to my mom anymore, 203 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 2: or I won't talk to my uncle anymore. Right. It 204 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 2: comes at a cost of how do I adjust to 205 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: my lifestyle being impacted by this person being upset with 206 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: my choice, even though I'm an adult and able to 207 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 2: make these choices for myself. 208 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, so it feels 209 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,239 Speaker 1: like there have been some recent examples in pop culture 210 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 1: of interracial relationships. So one of our favorite shows to 211 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: talk about here is Insecure, of course, and so we 212 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: saw with Molly Molly kind of talks about throughout the 213 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: series wanting to kind of eventually marry a black man, 214 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: but she ended up dating Andrew, who was an Asian man. 215 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: But I think that some of the feelings that she 216 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: talks about in the show around this isn't what I 217 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: expected and like, oh, I'm not sure, like how we 218 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: got here? Can you talk about maybe some of the 219 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: feelings that come up for people who end up dating, 220 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: you know, someone interracially and that had not necessarily been 221 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: the play in. 222 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 2: I think the feelings that I've seen my clients have 223 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: are questioning their own racial identity and questioning their loyalty 224 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: to their race. I think for Black women, especially who 225 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 2: date interracially, there's always a question of don't you love yourself, 226 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 2: don't you love black men? Or what is it about 227 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 2: this other man that is more sufficient than a black 228 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 2: man is? And I think that undue pressure can really 229 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 2: get to a person and make you think twice about 230 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 2: who you know yourself to be and who you believe 231 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 2: yourself to be. I think we as a community, a 232 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: black community, we've become more comfortable with seeing black men 233 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 2: with other women who are not black, And I think 234 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: in a lot of ways society supports that, right, they 235 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 2: support diminishing or dismissing the black women as the black 236 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 2: man's partner are equal. And so I've also seen where 237 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,839 Speaker 2: the white partner feels like there's no big deal here, 238 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 2: that it's no different for them to date someone who 239 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: is white or not white, that they don't grasp that 240 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: there's a significant impact as far as socially but also 241 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: personally to dating outside of your race. And I think 242 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 2: again that socially we give more allowances to people who 243 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 2: are not Black to make those kinds of choices and 244 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 2: to have those kinds of relationships. So I think a 245 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 2: lot of the pressure or a lot of the stigma 246 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: and backlash lands on the black women. No surprise there though. 247 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: Right, right? And this may be a bit biased because 248 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: I think you mentioned like a large percentage of your 249 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: caseload is black or other people of color. But do 250 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: you feel like black women are put in that place 251 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: in ways that women of other cultures are not? Right, So, 252 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: this expectation that black women would only date black men 253 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: as opposed to other races being able to kind of 254 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: date more freely. 255 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that as a whole of course, we 256 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 2: live in a white supremacist society where proximity the whiteness 257 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 2: is always favored. And I think for other cultures, other races, 258 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: there's a positive to dating a white person, right that 259 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 2: you're somehow elevating yourself or you're doing the right thing. 260 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 2: Maybe you're assimilating more for your family or for your 261 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: culture than past generations have been able to. Whereas so 262 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 2: black women, it's seen as you're selling out or you're 263 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: abandoning or betraying your race. And I think we always 264 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: have the onus or responsibility to favor our race and 265 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 2: stick by black men no matter what they're doing, no 266 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 2: matter what is happening, and that becomes very unfair, especially 267 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: when this is about love and who you're attracted to 268 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: and who you have that unspeakable connection with that no 269 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 2: one can or be able to regulate. 270 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: In the situation with Molly and Andrew, I think it 271 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: was interesting because he was an Asian man, right, so 272 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: not necessarily a white man. Do you see the dynamics 273 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: play out differently if it is a black woman with 274 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: another person of color partner as opposed to a white partner. 275 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 2: Yes, I've had several couples who have been black and 276 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: Asian partners and other configurations that don't involve a white partner, 277 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 2: and there's less of the battle against white supremacy for 278 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: the one partner. Right In those relationships, both partners are 279 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: able to speak to their shared experiences of being minorities 280 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 2: and the ways in which racism impacts their lives, so 281 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: they have more of like us versus them bond, whereas 282 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 2: with the black and white partner, there's a double fight, 283 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: right of like your partner's family and then the larger 284 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 2: society that happens, so there is more connectedness, I think 285 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 2: when they're both minorities, but there's still a different way 286 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: in which black and Asian people respond to white supremacy 287 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: historically or have been impacted by it historically, and so 288 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: it's not a battle of who's more marginalized in whom, 289 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: but rather it's very different for me to be a 290 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 2: black woman or black man than for you to be 291 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: an Asian woman or man, especially when we're gettingto discussions 292 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 2: like colorism or skin tone and things like that. 293 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear doctor Henry your thoughts on what 294 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: kinds of conversation should people be having, maybe before they 295 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: even decide whether this is going to be a serious 296 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: kind of relationship because I think even in the dynamic 297 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: with Andrew and Molly and his family, we know that 298 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: they are differing levels of anti blackness for lots of 299 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: different communities, right, even though they are also people of color. 300 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: So what kinds of conversations should a couple be having 301 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: around things like colorism and all of these other things 302 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: before they even maybe decide to have a serious relationship 303 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: with one another. 304 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: I think the first question is always like, what's the 305 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: mama going to say? Right? Like, what's your mama going 306 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: to say about this? But take a step further, like 307 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: when you think about your partner and your relationship, whose 308 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 2: face comes to mind immediately that you think will have 309 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 2: a problem with that? And how are you going to 310 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 2: deal with possibly losing that person in your life and 311 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 2: the role they're currently playing. How are you going to 312 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 2: have those discussions with this person? How are you going 313 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 2: to protect yourself, your partner, your relationship, your choices in 314 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 2: the face of this person's anger or their possible violence 315 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 2: even about it. You know, I've seen some cases where 316 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,719 Speaker 2: it's gotten praise severe and there's been physical threats or 317 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 2: a lack of physical safety with family and friends because 318 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: of who their partner is. And then I think among 319 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 2: the two people involved, you need to have discussions about 320 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 2: what are the impacts to your life and your lifestyle 321 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 2: because of other people's feelings and values? Is there a 322 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: threat for your employment? Imagine that your employer or your 323 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 2: coworkers are going to have viscual reactions to who your 324 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,479 Speaker 2: partner is. How are you going to deal with again, 325 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 2: standing firm and your choices and your feelings and your 326 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 2: beliefs when other people have those feelings? How are you 327 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 2: going to react social life when others strangers have comments 328 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: or they have reactions to your partnership. If you think 329 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 2: about having children together, how a you're going to raise 330 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 2: your children to navigate being biracial and to navigate learning 331 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 2: about and identifying with these two cultures. What does that 332 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 2: look like for you? What are the resources that you 333 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 2: have that can help support you and protect you in 334 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 2: those environments? In those contexts, Who will be supportive and 335 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 2: who can you turn to as an ally? But also 336 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: what do you understand about your partner's culture? What do 337 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 2: you know about their culture? How can you be sure 338 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: that you're not perpetrating some of that ignorance? Yourself just 339 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: because you don't know and you're letting lovely the way 340 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 2: I always say, like love is great, but it's not everything, 341 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 2: and you need to have more than just that. Your 342 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 2: partner can't be the one to teach you about black 343 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 2: people or black culture, and you should have other people 344 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 2: in your life who are black or who can talk 345 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 2: to you about those things, people who can help you 346 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 2: learn about what you don't know, and vice versa. 347 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: Did you get a chance to watch You People the 348 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: film on place? Yes, so tell me about your reactions 349 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: to that film. Do you feel like they portrayed into 350 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: racial relationships in a fair way? 351 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 2: Yes, and no. I think that they were extreme about 352 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 2: it in some respects. I did appreciate that they had 353 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 2: Lauren London's character become a Muslim family. I don't think 354 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: that we see black Muslim people very often in positive 355 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 2: roles in movie and TV, so I was happy to 356 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 2: see that. But I don't think that they spent enough 357 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 2: time establishing what the couple's bond was, right. I think 358 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: they talked about, you know, their love for fashion and 359 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: being different in their respective communities, but I didn't get 360 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 2: a sense of what keeps these two together, and so 361 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 2: when the families got involved, I think the focus went 362 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 2: from the two of them to everybody else, which is 363 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 2: usually what happens, right, other people's feelings and reactions take 364 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 2: presence over. We found love. You know, we're in love 365 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 2: with each other. We want to have a feature together, 366 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 2: and so I think I would have liked to see 367 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 2: more of Lauren talking to her black girlfriend about her 368 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 2: relationship in a more in depth way or how she's 369 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 2: navigating this, and Jonah Hill's character doing the same thing. 370 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 2: They didn't shy away from the different aspects of both 371 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 2: Muslim culture and Jewish culture, and they had a lot 372 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 2: of important discussions around what it means for both people 373 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 2: to be in their respective religions and cultures. So I 374 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 2: think that was great, you. 375 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: Know, and it's interesting because the first family we saw 376 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: that had an issue with it was Laurence family, Right. 377 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: I do think that it's interesting Historically you think about 378 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 1: like black families maybe being more accepting or they may 379 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: not react as strongly than in you people. We of 380 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: course saw that, you know, her family had a very 381 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: strong reaction to him not being black. 382 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that black people, I think we sort 383 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 2: of have to be more accepting right, because we're usually 384 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 2: the other We're usually the ones that people have the 385 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 2: reaction to. But you're right in my experience with my clients, 386 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 2: at least, it's not that the black family has the issue. 387 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 2: It's usually the other family because of what I think 388 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 2: blackness means to people who are not black, right, there's 389 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: sometimes usually a negative connotation with blackness in America and 390 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: whether the family believes that are not they're susceptible to 391 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 2: society's opinions and views and having to combat that and 392 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 2: truly believe differently in their own households. 393 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: So you mentioned in one of your earlier responses that 394 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: black women sometimes are worried about like their black card 395 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: being pulled or questions around their identity. What kinds of 396 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: suggestions or advice would you give to people who are 397 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: maybe struggling with them maybe they're thinking about, like, Okay, 398 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: do I want to open up the pool of who 399 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: I date but are worried about this? 400 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 2: I help them navigate their black identity what that means 401 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: to them. What does blackness mean to you? How do 402 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 2: you maintain your connection to your own culture and the 403 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: fact that those things don't have to change because you're 404 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 2: with someone who's not Black, that in fact, you can 405 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: help that person learn what your Black experience is like. 406 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 2: Because we're not a monolith as black people. Everyone's experience 407 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 2: of blackness is different, everyone's lived experience in their black 408 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 2: bodies is different. And so I help my clients not 409 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 2: define themselves by other's opinions or other's metrics, but by 410 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: their own and sort of empowering them to understand that 411 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 2: an interuacial relationship is not a black relationship right, there 412 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: is still a black love element to it because you 413 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 2: are a Black person, and that you can redefine for 414 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 2: yourself what that means and how you maintain your blackness 415 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 2: with someone who is not black, and not letting that 416 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 2: diminish what you think about yourself. 417 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: You know. The other argument I think we often hear 418 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 1: is people saying like I want to be with somebody 419 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: who understands my culture, who I won't have to explain 420 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: things to in some ways. What pieces of the conversation 421 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: do you think they're missing? 422 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 2: I think they're missing that again, black people are not 423 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 2: a monolith. That there is diversity within the black community. 424 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 2: For example, I'm Jamaican, my husband is Black American. We've 425 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 2: had to have a lot of conversations about our different 426 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 2: cultures because they are very different and it means different things. 427 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 2: So we're both black, but we're not the same kind 428 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 2: of black or the same flavor of black. And so 429 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 2: even though you're with somebody who is black and who 430 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: looks like you, that doesn't mean that there's a guarantee 431 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 2: that you'll have similarities because of your blackness. There are 432 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 2: some things that you will, of course have in common, 433 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 2: but there are still things that you have to get 434 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: to know about your partner because they're a different person 435 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 2: than you are. So appreciating that blackness can have a 436 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 2: lot of nuances to it and a lot of variation 437 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 2: to it, and it's about who you love and who 438 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 2: you choose to go through life with, and there being 439 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 2: a core value that you're looking for or core values 440 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 2: that you look for, and that not having to be 441 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 2: defined by the skin color or race the person is. 442 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: What kinds of things do you think a non black 443 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: partner needs to know about what it means to create 444 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 1: a loving and supportive environment for a black woman partner. 445 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 2: I think the non black partner has to be willing 446 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: to learn a lot, and they have to be willing 447 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 2: to be uncomfortable. They have to be willing to be 448 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: not defensive, but like open to criticism and feedback. Right 449 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 2: that for black women especially, we navigate a whole lot, 450 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 2: We juggle a lot, we carry a lot, and there 451 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 2: are ways in which our partners have to learn from 452 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 2: us what we need from them in the way that 453 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 2: we need it. So even if you think, okay, I 454 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: want to support you by doing X, Y and Z, 455 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: I may need a B and C. And it can't 456 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 2: be about your ego or about the kind of partner 457 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: you want to show up for me as but rather, 458 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 2: here's what I need from you, how I need it, 459 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 2: and when I need it, and be open to learning that. 460 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 2: I think the non black partner again should pursue relationships 461 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 2: with people who are black who are not their partner. 462 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 2: So who else do you have in your life that 463 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 2: may look like me? If I'm your only black friend 464 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 2: and your partner, that may be very uncomfortable for both 465 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 2: of us. It may be a huge runing curve for 466 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 2: you and that you have no other supports for outside 467 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 2: of me. And it can't all come from me. I 468 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 2: can't be burdened with being the only person helping you 469 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 2: advocate black culture. I can't be the one answering all 470 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 2: of your black related questions or teaching you all about 471 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: why I do the things that do in the way 472 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 2: that I do them. So if that partner is not 473 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: willing to seek their own edification and willing to seek 474 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 2: understanding through their own experiences and through their own efforts, 475 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 2: their relationship is going to really suffer. And I see 476 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 2: that happen a lot too, where the black partner feels 477 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 2: overwhelmed with having to be Black in America, which is 478 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 2: its own full time job and trauma filled experience, and 479 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: then having to help the other person understand their black 480 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 2: experience and understand other people's Black experiences as well. So 481 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 2: if you can lighten that load by doing your own 482 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 2: work and seeking your own supports and understandings, that can 483 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 2: definitely help. And your partner can help you process those things, 484 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: but they shouldn't be the only person or entity introducing 485 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 2: you to those things. 486 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: And you mentioned earlier, you know, and I can imagine 487 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty twenty twenty one, like you mentioned so 488 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 1: many people and still there were so many people Black 489 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: people dying at the hands of police and other you know, 490 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: white supremacists and just in everyday life. And I can 491 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: imagine that maybe did bring up some difficult things for 492 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 1: people that maybe they were not having to consider before. 493 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: Can you talk about what it looked like to be 494 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: able to like successfully navigate some of those more difficult conversations. 495 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 2: They're very, very difficult, and I think they need to 496 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 2: happen as a series of conversations, not just like we 497 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 2: discussed this one time and that's it, right. I remember 498 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 2: I had a couple with a black woman and a 499 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: white man, and she wanted her partner to put himself 500 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 2: physically between her and police officers whenever they were in public, 501 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 2: and she felt like that was how he could keep 502 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 2: her safe, that's how he could support her by having 503 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 2: his body be a physical intermediary between her and what 504 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 2: she saw as a threat. And it took him a 505 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 2: long time to understand why she needed that right and 506 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 2: to understand that he didn't see the place as a threat. 507 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 2: He didn't see himself as unsafe around cops. He felt 508 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 2: the opposite, and she felt very differently. And this was 509 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: when you know, the height of the Black Lives Matter 510 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 2: protests and marchers that they would attend together, and in 511 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 2: those contexts, especially she wanted him to protect her in 512 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: that very physical way. And that's just an example of 513 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 2: things that I think white people don't have to think about, 514 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 2: they don't have to be aware of. But if you 515 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 2: have a partner who is black or another minority race, 516 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: you have to start developing an awareness for things like that. 517 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 2: You have to sort of train yourself to think beyond 518 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 2: your own experiences and imagine, if my partner were here, 519 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 2: or if they were seeing this altercation happen or hearing 520 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 2: this conversation, what kinds of things may land differently for them, 521 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 2: what may be triggering for them, what may be hurtful 522 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 2: for them, and what role am I playing in either 523 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 2: stopping this thing from happening or enabling it to continue. 524 00:27:45,520 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: Further More from our conversation after the break on their 525 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: particular themes you have seen in the couples you've worked 526 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: with that you feel like allow them to navigate their 527 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: relationship in more successful ways. 528 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: For couples that have a lot of playfulness or use 529 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 2: comedy a lot, I think there's been a way that 530 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 2: can ease some of the conversations. We can call on 531 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 2: different comedians and different stand up routines that have talked 532 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: about interocial couples, about black people or people in certain ways, 533 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: and have fun conversations around like the things that are 534 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 2: true or the stereotypes that are not true, and navigate 535 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 2: some of these more difficult discussions in a lighter fashion. 536 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 2: Other themes are when they have siblings who are supportive 537 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: some things, who are either closer in age or who 538 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 2: themselves are also in intucial relationships that they can develop 539 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 2: a community with. That's always helpful because maybe the parents 540 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: or grandparents are not on board. But if your siblings, 541 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 2: the people who are like your first friends are willing 542 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 2: to support your relationship, that tends to eat the blow 543 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 2: a lot. And then those who live in bigger cities 544 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 2: or bigger communities that have more diversity to them. So 545 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 2: I treat people in New York, but that runs the 546 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 2: gam of New York State, and so in some more 547 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 2: rural areas there aren't the same kinds of communities or 548 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 2: events that expose you to different cultures, whereas in New 549 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 2: York City proper, of course, you can find a lot 550 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 2: more diversity and a lot more places you can live 551 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 2: and gyms you can go to. In different events you 552 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: can attend where you'll see intracial couples, that people who 553 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: look like one or both partners, and that can feel 554 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 2: like you don't have to rely only on your family 555 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 2: of origin, that you can develop a support system outside 556 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 2: of that that can be loving and there for you 557 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 2: without your relationship. 558 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: So you have developed your own way of working with couples. 559 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: So you've developed a model called integrative culinary therapy, which 560 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: involves cooking and sharing cultural meals. Can you tell us 561 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: a little bit more about that work, yes. 562 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 2: So, integrative culinary therapy is my baby. It is a 563 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 2: systems oriented approach that really aims to help couples develop 564 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 2: a deeper intimacy through cultural understanding. So I begin by 565 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: asking each partner if your partner could eat something from 566 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 2: your culture and learn more about you, what would that 567 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 2: dish be? And we meet in a cooking space and 568 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 2: we'll go through these different interventions that are therapeutic but 569 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 2: really involve the act of cooking and eating the traditional 570 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 2: foods to help them work on things like communication or 571 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 2: making decisions together. How do your problem solve? How do 572 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: you trust and respect each other? And the different exercises 573 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 2: really challenge couples both as a unit but also individually 574 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: to do these things in a very experiential way. But 575 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 2: the whole time I'm there, I'm asking questions. Right, We're 576 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,239 Speaker 2: talking about different things, like if you're cooking together and 577 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 2: one of the exercises, each partner can use one hand, 578 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 2: so they have to do the whole recipe to using 579 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 2: just one hand to cut everything and stir everything thing. 580 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 2: And so I'll ask, is it easier to do things 581 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: together or separately? What strengths do you both bring to 582 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: this exercise or this intervention that you're doing in this moment? 583 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 2: How can you talk more about what you're doing to 584 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 2: make it easier for each of you. And so, even 585 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 2: though it's not really about knowing how to cook, the 586 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 2: act of being in this space is something that they 587 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 2: can replicate on their own time. Right, we all cook 588 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: and eat every day. Most of us do at least 589 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 2: some of us do with our partner, some of us 590 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: do it alone. But this is a way that therapy 591 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 2: can become a part of your everyday routine. And so 592 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 2: when the sessions are long gone, you're still implementing this 593 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 2: way of being purposeful about your relationship. How are you 594 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 2: intentionally and consciously attending to your relationship on a regular basis, 595 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 2: and I think cooking food together and eating together can 596 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 2: be one of those ways. 597 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: I love then thank you for sharing that. Can you 598 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: say more about like why the one hand, what is that? 599 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: In force to do? 600 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 2: So? I have these four exercises that I put couples through. 601 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 2: One of them is called hands off, where one partner 602 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 2: can do the actual cooking and the other has to 603 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 2: hold the recipe and tell them a step by step 604 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 2: and that forces them, of course, to communicate and think 605 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 2: about how they're talking about things. But it really is 606 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: about trust and respect. And trust and respect a sort 607 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 2: of elements of my clinical work and my approach to 608 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 2: couple's therapy. And so it's not only about like, hey, 609 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 2: cut that onion, but do I feel like you're cutting 610 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: the onion wrong? Is not going to cause an argument 611 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 2: because I think I want you to cut the onion 612 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: a rounds and you're dicing it instead. How can I 613 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 2: give my partner space to do this in their way 614 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 2: and respect that the job is still done, The task 615 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 2: is still completed, and I can appreciate that their way 616 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 2: is different than mine, but it still is good enough 617 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 2: or correct in some way. The other is, like I said, 618 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: each partner using one hand, and that is really just 619 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 2: to see how they make choices together when they both 620 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 2: have a limitation. How do they compromise? How do they 621 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 2: decide who takes the charge or who follows, or do 622 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 2: they come to the table and discuss everything together. Do 623 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 2: they stick to the plan the whole way through? Do 624 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 2: they change the plan because maybe it's harder to stir 625 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 2: with the left hand, but I can open the jar 626 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 2: with my left hand. The third exercise is that they 627 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 2: have to do every single step of the recipe together, 628 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 2: so they can use both hands, but they can't do 629 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 2: anything independently. And that's really to challenge how do they 630 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 2: work as a unit together? Right, So again more of 631 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 2: the problem solving and compromising, but also what happens when 632 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 2: they have to do something as a unit. Are they 633 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 2: used to sort of living independent lives in the same 634 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 2: household or do they really integrate themselves with one another? 635 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 2: And the fourth exercise I call the risotto experience. And 636 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,959 Speaker 2: if you ever cooked wisoda, doctor joy, but you have 637 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 2: to stand by the stove and stir this pot the 638 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 2: entire time. You can't stop stirring, and you have to 639 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 2: integrate like warm chicken broth or wine as you stir 640 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 2: and have the resulta absorb it and that's how you 641 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 2: cook it. And so it takes a very long time. 642 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 2: It's a very tedious process. And while they're saying they're 643 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 2: doing this, we're having that hard discussion whatever it is 644 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 2: they've not been able to resolve or work through. Now 645 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 2: is the time, while we're cooking this rice, that we're 646 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 2: going to have that conversation. And it really shows again 647 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 2: how you can incorporate having these hard discussions, overcoming these 648 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 2: barriers or these really hard moments in your relationship while 649 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 2: doing everyday tasks. And so you may not be able 650 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 2: to always carve out time for a therapy or for 651 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: a whole session, or maybe because of the kids and 652 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 2: your busy schedules, it's just not a possibility. But how 653 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 2: do we then not ignore what's happening in our relationship. 654 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 2: How do we make this space and time to resolve 655 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 2: those things? So we sort of alternate an office session 656 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 2: with a cooking session throughout the entire model. At the 657 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 2: end of it, it's really about how did I learn 658 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 2: more about my partner for who they are, where they 659 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 2: come from, who raised them, the things they learned as 660 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 2: a child about relationships and how that manifests in their 661 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 2: current adult relationship through this vehicle of cooking and eating food. 662 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: So how do you decide which couples would be a 663 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 1: good fit for this kind of an experience. 664 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 2: I definitely have some exclusion criteria around my practice just 665 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 2: being a private practice in itself, so I don't tend 666 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 2: to take on couples that are more intense or have 667 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 2: active domestic violence happening or active substance abuse diagnoses. I 668 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 2: am starting to narrow down how I assess for individual 669 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 2: psycho pathology and the severity of that in couple's therapy. 670 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 2: So if I have a couple where one client may 671 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 2: have a mental illness and they're not properly medicated or 672 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 2: they're having bouts of severe symptomology, then they wouldn't be 673 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 2: a good fit for this kind of exercise. So it's 674 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 2: more of the couples who are low risk but maybe 675 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 2: high intensity in other ways that they have a lot 676 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 2: of conflict or tension. There have been times when we've 677 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 2: started doing some of the cooking stuff and then stopped 678 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 2: because other things come up that necessitate having those office 679 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 2: sessions more so than the cooking ones, But normally people 680 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 2: sort of hesitand of I don't know how cooking is 681 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 2: going to work with this whole thing, But once they 682 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 2: start doing it, they realize that the cooking is secondary 683 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 2: to what we're discussing while we're cooking, and how comfortable 684 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 2: it is to approach therapy in a different way. And 685 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 2: a therapy can look like all these different things that 686 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 2: are cathartic, but it can also be therapeutic as well. 687 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 2: And I have to be that we're just sitting and 688 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 2: having this still working clinical discussion, but rather we can 689 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 2: be eating, and I do eat with my clients sometimes, 690 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 2: and we'll be eating and still maintaining that conversation able 691 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 2: to work through those same therapeutic and presenting problems. 692 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: And I can imagine it would be even more comfortable 693 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: for some people just because of like not requiring like 694 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: the intense eye contact or like, you know, the confinement 695 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: that sometimes happens in a therapy office. Like if we're 696 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: cooking and it feels a little more casual, people may 697 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: be able to approach maybe more difficult conversations than they 698 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: would in an office. 699 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:42,879 Speaker 2: And that's really how I came up with it, because 700 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 2: I realized that I love to cook and feed people. 701 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 2: But also when you have to deal with your friends 702 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 2: or you know how to have girls mind or even 703 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 2: date night, you're more relaxed because you are in that, 704 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,240 Speaker 2: like you said, other environment, right, you're having really good food. 705 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 2: You're in a different space, and you just approach it 706 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 2: with a different mindset. And it's not about, OK, go 707 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 2: to therapy and talk about this really serious thing. But 708 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,399 Speaker 2: we're going to cook together and see what comes up 709 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 2: and work through the things that we want to really 710 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 2: resolve and discuss in our relationship. 711 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: So I want to go back to something you mentioned 712 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: in your introduction around the piece that you did for 713 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: CBS Sunday Morning, in the fact that, like, not much 714 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: has changed since Loving Versus Virginia. Can you say a 715 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: little bit more about that? 716 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the piece was about three different interracial couples, 717 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 2: but Rita Braver and I spoke about, like you said, 718 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 2: what is it that bothers these families, right, Like, what 719 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 2: is it that they feel so triggered by or threatened by? 720 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 2: And I was speaking to her about the fact that 721 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 2: it's really about how people have envisioned their life and 722 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 2: their family's lives, right, Like the people shot of envisioned 723 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 2: that my grandkids would look a certain way, or my 724 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: children will marry a certain kind of person, whether that 725 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 2: means gender, sexual orientation, but specifically race too. And so 726 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 2: it becomes a thing of feeling that my legacy is 727 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 2: being threatened, that my bloodline is being tampered with. And 728 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 2: that sounds very like prehistoric, right. It sounds very old 729 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 2: fashioned in that line of thinking, but it's still what 730 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 2: happens to this day. It's really about what are people 731 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 2: going to think if my grandchild is black? How people 732 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 2: going to react to me. It doesn't mean about me 733 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 2: if my son goes and marries an Asian woman or 734 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 2: a black woman and doesn't find a white woman to 735 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 2: be a suitable partner. And we saw that with even 736 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 2: like Megan Markle and Harry Right, that the family was 737 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,839 Speaker 2: asking about how dark skin the child would be and 738 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,879 Speaker 2: what that might mean. Because we still have so many 739 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 2: people in the society who think that darker skin or 740 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 2: black people are bad and wrong and that it means 741 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 2: something negative or less than that. Those things get stepped 742 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 2: on and get triggered when you bring someone home who 743 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 2: is black. 744 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,720 Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. So where can we stay 745 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: connected with you, Doctor Henry. What is your website as 746 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: well as any social media handles. 747 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,919 Speaker 2: My website is Sankkopha Therapy NYC and on Instagram, I'm 748 00:38:54,960 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 2: the same Sankopha Therapy NYC. On our website and on Instagram, 749 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 2: you can find different links to articles I've contributed to, 750 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,320 Speaker 2: things like the cbspiece, other videos I've done with different 751 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 2: media entities. I'm also hosting a couple's retreat this September 752 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 2: in Belize, and it's not a therapy couples retreat. There 753 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 2: will be some theraputic elements to it, but it's really 754 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 2: about helping couples be in this beautiful place but make 755 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 2: time for themselves and have fun together and explore different 756 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 2: aspects of their relationships together. Socided about that, and I've 757 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 2: also published a cookbook that has theraputy exercises in it 758 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 2: as well as recipes, so it's sort of like the 759 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 2: model in a book form, and there are exercises that 760 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 2: you can do by yourself with your partner, with your family, 761 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 2: with your friends, as well as recipes that align with that. 762 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 2: So there's like a section on food that you can 763 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 2: eat by yourself that's really indulgent food you can share 764 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 2: with your partner, etc. 765 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: Perfect well, we will be sure to include all of 766 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: that in the show notes. Thank you so much for 767 00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: spending time with us today, Doctor Henry. 768 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 2: Thank you so much like to join. It's been a 769 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:00,879 Speaker 2: lot of fun. 770 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: I'm so glad Doctor Henry was able to join us 771 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: for this episode. To learn more about her and her work, 772 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: please visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot 773 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: com slash Session three point fifteen, and don't forget to 774 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,439 Speaker 1: text two of your girls right now and tell them 775 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: to check out the episode. If you're looking for a 776 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory at 777 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you 778 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: want to continue digging into this topic or just be 779 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: in community with other sisters, come on over and join 780 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of 781 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: the Internet designed just for black women. You can join 782 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This 783 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: episode was produced by Frieda Lucas alis Ellis and Zaria Taylor, 784 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: and editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so 785 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 1: much for joining me again this week. I look forward 786 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: to continuing this conversation with you all real soon take 787 00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: good care. What