Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to Everywhere, a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I am your host Daniel Shaffler. This week's commandment thou
Speaker 1: shalt break down borders, Robert Frost said, before I build
Speaker 1: a wall, I'd asked to know what I was walling
Speaker 1: in or walling out and to whom I was like
Speaker 1: to give offense. Traveling is all about borders. They are
Speaker 1: physical or literal ones, those metaphorical ones, and then those
Speaker 1: deep spiritual ones. As a traveler, I'm always considering borders.
Speaker 1: Can I cross this? Who will I be when I
Speaker 1: am on the other side of this border? Why do
Speaker 1: we have these borders in the first place? And right
Speaker 1: now we the people are having to rethink borders altogether.
Speaker 1: The ancient Greek saw unrestrained movement as one of the
Speaker 1: four freedoms, distinguishing liberty from slavery. An influx of migrants
Speaker 1: added to wealth and taxes in local defense. And I
Speaker 1: think those things sound like assets to me. But this
Speaker 1: thinking is apparently now all gone. We've had wars, excessive poverty,
Speaker 1: terrorist attacks, and environmental changes forcing people to move, and
Speaker 1: as a result, walls are being erected everywhere. My girl
Speaker 1: AOC recently went to the American southern border to see
Speaker 1: what the real situation is like, and she was fucking horrified.
Speaker 1: It's humanity at its lowest vibration. But for some reason,
Speaker 1: humans like borders. As a species, we like to make
Speaker 1: sure things aren't too blurry or too complex. That to
Speaker 1: our idiotic mind's eye, keeps it all under control. And
Speaker 1: so since World War Two, national leaders have said, let's delineate,
Speaker 1: let's give this globe higher walls and longer borders, all
Speaker 1: to pretend that they offering citizens extra safety. Countries all
Speaker 1: over the world have done this and have lied about
Speaker 1: the value of borders. So I'm not saying that borders
Speaker 1: should be totally open. There should be reasonable checks and restrictions,
Speaker 1: and in most of the world that is the way
Speaker 1: it is, in spite of the conservative media telling you otherwise.
Speaker 1: What we're really saying is that there should also be reasonable, compassionate,
Speaker 1: and respectful, common sense flexibility. In the nineties, the big
Speaker 1: talk was globalization and living and traveling in a borderless society. Finally,
Speaker 1: a moment to challenge orders had come. The European Union
Speaker 1: was created to facilitate this concept and had rapidly expanded
Speaker 1: its reach eastwards since the African continent was establishing a
Speaker 1: Pan African agreement to facilitate ease of movement, and even
Speaker 1: the US, Mexico and Canada once try to keep things
Speaker 1: breezy and easy to scurry through, but as expected, it
Speaker 1: was all too loose and hippie dippy ideal for the
Speaker 1: power elite. Just look at the happy travelers buying fantasy
Speaker 1: World passports who thought they could finally explore this glow freely.
Speaker 1: Most recently, musician Moss Deaf was arrested in South Africa
Speaker 1: for trying to leave the country with his World passport.
Speaker 1: So fast forward thirty years later, we know that the
Speaker 1: border free dream has finally collapsed, but we should hold
Speaker 1: onto some variant of it to its best principles. As
Speaker 1: we speak, new Chinese imperialists are laying down borders in Africa.
Speaker 1: Mother Russia has expanded her reach in America is cruelly
Speaker 1: raising its drawbridge and turning its back on a legitimate
Speaker 1: asylum seeker. What a turn of events now that cheery
Speaker 1: Canada is showing the world how to handle migrants, how
Speaker 1: to document them thoroughly and integrate them into Canadian bliss.
Speaker 1: A maple leaf tattoo is always optional. Germany, out of
Speaker 1: guilt or perhaps some confusion, forgot the integration and documentation
Speaker 1: part of rightfully letting in millions of hard up migrants,
Speaker 1: and now there's a glut of people not quite fitting
Speaker 1: into that Deutsche lifestyle. As a German citizen, I know
Speaker 1: how complex things are as a result, Shall we bring
Speaker 1: up Brexit and the humanitarian crisis in the Middle East?
Speaker 1: No wonder, the system that is Europe is calling foul.
Speaker 1: If you missed the travel news of the last few months,
Speaker 1: well let me brief you. Decided that he's shameless. Wall
Speaker 1: facing Mexico isn't enough. What is of more importance to
Speaker 1: him is to make sure that immigrants are kept out
Speaker 1: at all costs, resulting in the internationally watched scandal of
Speaker 1: splitting up families at the border and detaining them in
Speaker 1: wartime like internment camps. Then the Supreme Court upheld forty
Speaker 1: five long argued travel ban, accepting the government's argument that
Speaker 1: the ban was within presidential power to craft in national
Speaker 1: security policy and thus his authority to suspend entry of
Speaker 1: aliens into the United States, for instance, Iranian nationals and
Speaker 1: their families who are perhaps American citizens or even dual
Speaker 1: citizens or even green card holders are all unfairly discriminatedly
Speaker 1: affected through this restricted travel. I call it unconstitutional. So
Speaker 1: there are over sixty million migrants and refugees currently on
Speaker 1: the move around the world. Many of course, are from Syria,
Speaker 1: with Canada working to settle twenty five thousand Syrians across
Speaker 1: the country by the end of this year. We can
Speaker 1: know what but displaced people are also leaving Haiti, Afghanistan, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq,
Speaker 1: North Korea, and all over Northern Africa, fleeing conflict zones,
Speaker 1: forever wars, failed states, and the effects of climate change.
Speaker 1: I have met many of these people on my travels
Speaker 1: and their stories are breaking. But what they have in
Speaker 1: common is the simple human need for belonging, the hope
Speaker 1: for a safer, better life. But it's all because of
Speaker 1: the concept of border that is now evolved. So remember
Speaker 1: follow the Money in the six film or the President's Men. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it would be wise to heat that now.
Speaker 1: Border control and infrastructure are big business, And besides the
Speaker 1: negative effects borders can sometimes have on humanity, corporations are
Speaker 1: profiting of our often manufactured fears that boogeyman fear of
Speaker 1: the other. Capital oh race, religious beliefs, sexual expression, and
Speaker 1: gender identity belonged to the unpleasant club of the other.
Speaker 1: So fear drives countries to build ever stricter and more
Speaker 1: expensive to manage for orders and corporations. Then probably some
Speaker 1: compliant politicians profit from this imaginary enemy. Some powers around
Speaker 1: the world seem to think that grinding down minorities will
Speaker 1: keep them in check. But a Simone de Beauvoir, who
Speaker 1: wrote Second Sex, said all oppression creates a state of war.
Speaker 1: This is no exception. Blessed be the fruit. A dark
Speaker 1: war is being berthed. The Handmaids know all about borders,
Speaker 1: and it isn't pretty for them either, And that's why
Speaker 1: Margaret Edward's Handmaid's Tale is the greatest show on television
Speaker 1: of the century. It depicts a world where borders are
Speaker 1: both physical and between genders. The show helps understand the
Speaker 1: disturbing reality of this current administration's racist policies, a new
Speaker 1: Supreme Court justice, as well as add One's recent victory
Speaker 1: in Turkey. If you want more, you can also get
Speaker 1: the sequel, Margaret atwards new book, The Testaments. But with
Speaker 1: pointing out problems, I also feel like we need to
Speaker 1: offer some solutions. Remember the nineteen seventy two educational television
Speaker 1: series Free to Be You and Me, Folks like ROBERTA. Flack,
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson, and Diana Ross remind America that gender and
Speaker 1: racial stereotypes can in fact be broken. And it's now
Speaker 1: nearly half a century later and we need a new
Speaker 1: version of this Free to Be Here. The message is simple,
Speaker 1: Americas shouldn't judge you because unless you're Native American, you've
Speaker 1: come from somewhere else. A catchy jingle on every radio
Speaker 1: station across the country would never do better public good
Speaker 1: if radio can magically make you hum ed. Shearon and
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift Well orthodoptr Rhys Jones, in his book Violent Borders,
Speaker 1: Refugees and the Right to Move, argues that getting rid
Speaker 1: of borders is in fact simply a human rights issue
Speaker 1: because let's face it, the border is in fact only
Speaker 1: inside you, and it's time to rethink how you're living, voting,
Speaker 1: and being in this world. Are they keeping them out
Speaker 1: or they're keeping you in? Under his eye, let's take
Speaker 1: a breather and we'll be right back with everywhere after
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors. Thanks for sticking around. Here's
Speaker 1: more of everywhere. For my next interview, I'm with my
Speaker 1: friend Sasha Fung, who happens to work at the u N.
Speaker 1: But more interestingly, we met on an aeroplane to Jordan's
Speaker 1: and stayed up all night talking. Sasha, I met you
Speaker 1: on a plane heading to Amn and I started chatting
Speaker 1: to you, and I offered you something to sleep, which
Speaker 1: you refused, But we ended up being friends anyway and
Speaker 1: spent the most magical time in Aman. And now we
Speaker 1: are fast friends, and I've met your kids, and I'm
Speaker 1: so grateful that we are friends, because you are one
Speaker 1: of the smartest people I've ever met, and I feel
Speaker 1: privileged to be in your realm. So thanks for being
Speaker 1: in studio with me today. And Ella, who snapping peacefully
Speaker 1: in your arms. It's amazing to be here. I mean,
Speaker 1: considering the people I've sat next to, this was like
Speaker 1: the winning lottery ticket. I felt the same. And when
Speaker 1: you walked down the aisle and you plumped yourself next
Speaker 1: to me, I had that split second of oh, I
Speaker 1: was hoping the seat next to me would stay free.
Speaker 1: But then you started, and you launched into this conversation.
Speaker 1: Zero notion of small talk. It was right to the essence, like,
Speaker 1: let's not waste time. We only have a twelve hour
Speaker 1: flight ahead of us, and we needed to sleep on
Speaker 1: that flight. I was getting up to work and you
Speaker 1: were presenting to some fancy director board, not very fancy.
Speaker 1: But so the thing that got us talking was you
Speaker 1: mentioned Eritrea to me, and you had been stationed working
Speaker 1: for the u N in Eritrea for two years almost
Speaker 1: and we got talking about this incredible country. So perhaps
Speaker 1: start with telling me how that happened and how you
Speaker 1: found yourself in this magical place, which I don't think
Speaker 1: a lot of people know about. It is a magical place.
Speaker 1: I was only there for one year, but would have
Speaker 1: gladly stayed longer, except that I had my husband and
Speaker 1: my kids in San Francisco and the commute between Asmara
Speaker 1: and the Bay area of California is a tricky one,
Speaker 1: and I would have otherwise loved to stay. It's a
Speaker 1: place that I always had a craving to go see.
Speaker 1: When I was at university, my roommate across the corridor
Speaker 1: launched an aery Trea independence support organization and we were
Speaker 1: sending all sorts of things to ery Trea because they
Speaker 1: had just become independent, and it was this huge deal.
Speaker 1: And then I nearly had a chance to go earlier
Speaker 1: in my career but couldn't, and so it was like
Speaker 1: this itch I needed to scratch. I had this q
Speaker 1: curiosity for this place that continued to be so mysterious,
Speaker 1: and so when I got the chance to go a
Speaker 1: second time, I just knew, this is it. This is
Speaker 1: actually an experience I want to have, and it's one
Speaker 1: that I'm willing to leave my husband and kids for.
Speaker 1: I want to go to Eritrea. I want to see it.
Speaker 1: I want to work there. So you flew in and
Speaker 1: you arrive and what is it? What is the country
Speaker 1: which is in the horn of Africa and not on
Speaker 1: the heart list of anyone traveling? Well, you know, that
Speaker 1: was the amazing part about it, because how many places
Speaker 1: do you go to in today's globalized world, where we
Speaker 1: have so much information about everything, and you have Google
Speaker 1: maps and you can see everything and sort of form
Speaker 1: an opinion. But about Eritrea, I had barely any opinion
Speaker 1: at all, except a few books that I had read
Speaker 1: and a few things that I'd heard from friends and colleagues.
Speaker 1: Whould work there, So I came with this completely blank
Speaker 1: slate and a lot of expectations and a little bit
Speaker 1: of trepidation, you know, going completely into the unknown. And
Speaker 1: there was something about just landing there. Remember being picked
Speaker 1: up at the airport and some people came to greet me,
Speaker 1: and I felt this affinity. It's kind of hard to describe,
Speaker 1: but I think that happens to all of us. You know,
Speaker 1: there are places where you instantly somehow feel more at
Speaker 1: home than in others. And I can't quite describe it,
Speaker 1: but it's a feeling that sort of grew quite quickly,
Speaker 1: and it just made me feel a lot more at
Speaker 1: home than I had any rights of feeding because it
Speaker 1: was pretty alien in some ways. But they'd put me
Speaker 1: up in this sort of one big hotel in town.
Speaker 1: And I decided the next day that I was going
Speaker 1: to go explore, and so I went off with my
Speaker 1: sneakers on a dusty track and someone had said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: i'll just follow this road and you'll find the cathedral.
Speaker 1: Of course, I didn't find the cathedral. I walked for
Speaker 1: ages and I was getting really thirsty, and I realized
Speaker 1: I had no NUCKFI, didn't have the local currency, and
Speaker 1: it's really quite tricky to change naka because you're only
Speaker 1: allowed to change it in certain government locations. And so
Speaker 1: I realized I had no no nakfa, no water, no
Speaker 1: working phone, and I was trapesing along on this beautiful
Speaker 1: sunny day. And then this little group of kids picked
Speaker 1: me up and they said, China, China, because that's what
Speaker 1: they call for. And I don't think I look particularly Asian,
Speaker 1: but all I could hear was China, China. You lost.
Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, I think China has lost. And
Speaker 1: they're like, what do you want to go see? And
Speaker 1: I said cathedral and they say, we take you. It
Speaker 1: was a band of little kids, and they had this
Speaker 1: sort of dried injera, which is the staple in their pockets,
Speaker 1: and they were trying to give me bits of India
Speaker 1: because you know, they're very hospitable air trey and so
Speaker 1: he wanted to make sure I wasn't about to keel
Speaker 1: over from starvation. And then they took me to the
Speaker 1: cathedral and they said, here's cathedral. Here cathedral, And I
Speaker 1: was suddenly in the middle of Asmara, which honestly looks
Speaker 1: as though you've traveled in time to the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 1: I don't think it has changed very much. There are
Speaker 1: these Italian buildings. There's a stone cathedral, this wide avenue
Speaker 1: with palm trees, Bouginvilia everywhere. Because the Italians brought a
Speaker 1: lot of that. There's a lot of local erritray and
Speaker 1: masonry that's kind of blended in. And then you see
Speaker 1: these old gentlemen walking with their Borsellino hats and their
Speaker 1: coats that are far too big for them, and and
Speaker 1: you have sort of quite Italianate names, and you have
Speaker 1: these ancient cars, and it really feels like you've gone
Speaker 1: back in time. It felt so magical. And so I
Speaker 1: was standing in front of this cathedral looking down at
Speaker 1: this sort of nineteen fifties city scape. You know, it's
Speaker 1: a small sleepy town Asmara, with this little group of
Speaker 1: kids who are kind of waiting for me to take
Speaker 1: in the beauty of their case Edril. And then I
Speaker 1: wanted to thank them for having gone out of their
Speaker 1: way like it didn't want them to get in trouble.
Speaker 1: And I said, can I buy you a little pastry?
Speaker 1: Because I had heard that there was some fantastic pastry
Speaker 1: and as matter, you know, old Sicilian cookies that they
Speaker 1: stopped making in Sicily decades ago, but old grandmother still
Speaker 1: make them and as mater and they said, yeah, sure.
Speaker 1: So we went to the little pastry shop and I'd
Speaker 1: managed by that point to change a few nakfa. I
Speaker 1: had no idea exactly how many, but I figured a
Speaker 1: few pastries so it would probably be okay. And then
Speaker 1: they said, now you buy yourself pastries, but we don't
Speaker 1: want any, and I said, what do you mean your kids?
Speaker 1: Of course you want pastries, and they said no. And
Speaker 1: there was something that I then got to learn quite
Speaker 1: quickly in Eritrea. This pride, you know, this self reliance.
Speaker 1: You don't just take what's given to you. You feel
Speaker 1: like you have to deserve it. And they somehow felt
Speaker 1: that they didn't need to be rewarded. And coming from
Speaker 1: the States or you know, from northern Europe, where everybody
Speaker 1: has such a built in expectation to be rewarded for anything,
Speaker 1: this was like and I had to literally stand there
Speaker 1: on the street corner and negotiate with them, these five
Speaker 1: six seven year olds, please, will you accept a pastry?
Speaker 1: And by the way, just the fact that with English
Speaker 1: I could negotiate with them already tells you a lot
Speaker 1: about this country. I think, you know, they spoke English
Speaker 1: well enough to be involved in this conversation with this
Speaker 1: random person they'd sort of picked up. So I kind
Speaker 1: of reckon. I'm a pretty good negotiator, but but I
Speaker 1: didn't have a patch on those kids, and so in
Speaker 1: the end, the best I could get out of them
Speaker 1: was their agreement that the youngest in the group I
Speaker 1: was allowed to buy a pastry for, not the others,
Speaker 1: just the baby. And this happened day two, depending how
Speaker 1: you count. I'd arrived the night before, and that's sort
Speaker 1: of what set me up for my year there. That experience,
Speaker 1: it's beautiful. It's a beautiful lesson. If only we could
Speaker 1: apply that lesson in Western civilization. Do you think we
Speaker 1: call Africa the West? It's like a weird thing being
Speaker 1: from South Africa, Like people call us western and I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: Erry Tree, it feels very Eastern to me at the
Speaker 1: same time, very European. It's been such a melting pot
Speaker 1: of cultures, and I think that's why I also felt
Speaker 1: that affinity. They identify with a lot of different cultures,
Speaker 1: so it makes it easier for you to identify with them.
Speaker 1: But so it's a good question. I would not call
Speaker 1: erry Tree of the West. I mean, there's no McDonald's,
Speaker 1: there's no three G, there's no diet Coke. I would
Speaker 1: not call it the West. Let's talk about the food,
Speaker 1: because I know that I've never woken up and been like,
Speaker 1: can't wait to go eat some error trained food tonight.
Speaker 1: There's every culture you could possibly imagine in my city.
Speaker 1: I don't know of the error train restaurant. I'm sure
Speaker 1: it's here, and I will find it and we will
Speaker 1: go there, but it's not something I think many people
Speaker 1: know about. Erytrain food, at least in a matter where
Speaker 1: I spent most of my time, is very similar to Ethiopian,
Speaker 1: but there's some really important differences. Essentially, it's in Gera
Speaker 1: is the sort of staple and it's that big, sort
Speaker 1: of spongy flatbread, and it's made out of what the
Speaker 1: Ethiopians called deaf and we in Eritrea are called tough,
Speaker 1: and it's supposed to be a superfood. It might be
Speaker 1: gluten free or very low in gluten, has a really
Speaker 1: high iron content, and the air tray and swear by it.
Speaker 1: It's like there's something about national identity, and in Gera
Speaker 1: people carry it around with them, and some people have
Speaker 1: actually said to me, I don't know what I would do.
Speaker 1: I don't know how it could live anywhere else where.
Speaker 1: They don't make injera, and the funny thing is that
Speaker 1: there's a big air tray in diaspora and many of
Speaker 1: them go out to other places, like this woman was
Speaker 1: telling me she went to Angola and made a little
Speaker 1: bit of money by making injera for airy trains that
Speaker 1: were at the time working in Angola. Like India is
Speaker 1: the symbol for so much of the country, and it's
Speaker 1: really fantastic because you can add all these extra sort
Speaker 1: of bits to it. And it's very communal, so you
Speaker 1: eat with your hands and people take their time. Nobody's
Speaker 1: checking their phone, and you couldn't anyway, would be far
Speaker 1: too messy because you're eating with your hands. You don't
Speaker 1: sit there with your carefully guarded plates and knife and fork.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a big platter in the middle, and
Speaker 1: everybody piles in and you learn all the different things
Speaker 1: that go into the Injia, and my favorites were actually
Speaker 1: the fasting food. So many erry trains are very devout
Speaker 1: and food and religion are closely intertwined. They have many
Speaker 1: periods where they're observing fasting and they will be absolutely rigorous,
Speaker 1: and the fasting food just means without meat, and so
Speaker 1: that's when you get all these creative vegetarian dishes. So
Speaker 1: I actually always quite like the fasting food. There's one
Speaker 1: thing I didn't, and unfortunately, that's the one dish that
Speaker 1: people prepare for you when you're a guest of honor
Speaker 1: in someone's house. And it's called AT and it's basically
Speaker 1: a porridge, but you eat it with melted butter and
Speaker 1: chili powder and yogurt and it's incredibly rich. When you're
Speaker 1: expecting a baby, you're supposed to eat it because there's
Speaker 1: a a belief that that's good for young expectant mothers,
Speaker 1: not for me. It looks beautiful, like this sort of mountain,
Speaker 1: and presenting a AT is such a sign of welcome
Speaker 1: to my home. That was difficult, and I would try
Speaker 1: and find ways of saying, I know your wife is
Speaker 1: very busy. Please tell her she doesn't have to do
Speaker 1: AT for me, or I will just come from lunch.
Speaker 1: You know, no need for AT. Coffee is fine, because
Speaker 1: the one thing I loved is the eritrey and coffee ceremony.
Speaker 1: That is something for the senses. I'm Austrian, so I
Speaker 1: love coffee. I'm obsessed with coffee. But it's about as
Speaker 1: far away as you could get from your caramel latte
Speaker 1: Grunde with sprinkles on top in Starbucks as you could
Speaker 1: possibly imagine. You know, this is the real thing. Where
Speaker 1: you hear the coffee beans being roasted in this old
Speaker 1: metal pan over the fire, so you hear the click,
Speaker 1: click click click click of the beans and then they
Speaker 1: start smelling good, and you're supposed to wave your hand
Speaker 1: over the smoke of the beans towards your nose, and
Speaker 1: that's a sort of respect sign of respect to the
Speaker 1: person who's preparing the coffee. And then the coffee comes,
Speaker 1: and there's always a little bit of popcorn and in
Speaker 1: gerra and other things with it. And you sit and
Speaker 1: you have the first round, and then you have the
Speaker 1: second round, and then you have the third, which is
Speaker 1: called baraka means blessing. And maybe after the third round
Speaker 1: you can be on your way, but maybe not, because
Speaker 1: then sometimes there's a fourth throat out and there's a
Speaker 1: fifth round. And this is a sort of centerpiece of
Speaker 1: people's life. You know, this is how they communicate. They
Speaker 1: communicate over coffee, and it's perfectly acceptable for life to
Speaker 1: just stop because you're having coffee. And then I think,
Speaker 1: you know, when you stand here in the line for
Speaker 1: your take out and you're rushing off with it to
Speaker 1: some meeting, how different we have evolved around this ancient
Speaker 1: tradition of coffee and there it's still ancient. I think
Speaker 1: there's a century old thing as far as I know,
Speaker 1: and you feel that, you know. That's why I booked
Speaker 1: a counterculture barista to come and spend the afternoon with
Speaker 1: us and slowly make coffee for the last five hours
Speaker 1: in studio. I knew that you were going to tell
Speaker 1: me some slow, beautiful Eritrey and coffee story. What is
Speaker 1: the thing that touched you the most? What is the
Speaker 1: thing that sticks with you that you just can't stop
Speaker 1: thinking about. I think the thing that touched me the
Speaker 1: most is realizing this thirst for opportunity and willingness to
Speaker 1: make something out of opportunities that I saw, especially in
Speaker 1: young people. For example, there's a quite a vibrant music scene,
Speaker 1: which is a bit counterintuitive because Eritrea is a country
Speaker 1: that struggled for thirty years to gain its independence against
Speaker 1: overwhelming odds where promoting the arts was not exactly a
Speaker 1: top priority. And then with the isolation and the sanctions,
Speaker 1: certain things just remained out of reach that wouldn't be
Speaker 1: out of reach elsewhere. For example, I really like to
Speaker 1: know how many pianos are there in Eritrea. I know
Speaker 1: of a few, and in fact I spent a day
Speaker 1: in San Francisco trying to find a spep heart for
Speaker 1: one of them, because there wasn't a spare part in
Speaker 1: the country to be had. And yet I met virtuoso pianists.
Speaker 1: I met a jazz singer who sounded as though she
Speaker 1: grown up in the Bronx. I met an opera singer
Speaker 1: who can perform in Italian and German. And when I
Speaker 1: asked him, so, when it's the first time you actually
Speaker 1: ever heard opera, he said, Tom and Jerry cartoon. And
Speaker 1: so how do you become a virtuoso musician in a
Speaker 1: context where it's not that easy to get materials or
Speaker 1: sheet music or instruments. And so we were discussing this
Speaker 1: one night after a beautiful concert, and these Eritrean musicians
Speaker 1: they said, you know something, Shasha, because I often got cold, Shasha,
Speaker 1: you know something, Shasha. We're always so pleased when we
Speaker 1: hear that eritreans in some in Cisco or in New York,
Speaker 1: or in Berlin or wherever have come top of their
Speaker 1: class or top of their PhD program, or have excelled
Speaker 1: in a business, because we really think that if you
Speaker 1: give eritreans two centimeters of opportunity, they will make two
Speaker 1: kilometers of opportunity out of that. And that's an attitude
Speaker 1: that's just really impressive. It's an impressive attitude to life.
Speaker 1: And you saw that throughout. I mean the musicians were
Speaker 1: sort of one example, but you could sort of see
Speaker 1: that throughout in the mentality and that was I think,
Speaker 1: to me, a sort of lesson that I hope I'll
Speaker 1: never forget. I've told my kids, I've told my husband.
Speaker 1: You know, it's something that I think will always stick
Speaker 1: with me, and I hope, I hope the error traans
Speaker 1: never lose it. I mean, it's something very precious. I
Speaker 1: hope that stays in their culture. I really do, as
Speaker 1: they open up and as they are opening up to
Speaker 1: the world in a way that has never been that way.
Speaker 1: I mean, I grew up parting in Africa and Eritrea
Speaker 1: was always one of the places that wasn't as well
Speaker 1: known as the others. Kenya was up and coming always,
Speaker 1: my parents were always talking about Nairobi. They were always
Speaker 1: talking about, of course, Angola and the potential in these countries,
Speaker 1: and Eritrea was not on the list. And now it
Speaker 1: is in a way, and I think that's so amazing,
Speaker 1: and I love that there's an idea that it's the
Speaker 1: little guy that can inspire somehow, like the unexpected place
Speaker 1: is always the place that teaches me this lesson that
Speaker 1: I'm like, shit, that's spectacular. Let me take that. And
Speaker 1: I think what I wish for people to hear is
Speaker 1: if you travel, you are able to learn these lessons
Speaker 1: if you're open to them, because the country, the place,
Speaker 1: the town, the people will give you these lessons. The
Speaker 1: moments are there if you're willing to open yourself. Most
Speaker 1: people are not. But if you open yourself up just
Speaker 1: a little bit, just a fraction, just too sameting meters,
Speaker 1: perhaps there's two kilometers of beauty and inspiration and wisdom
Speaker 1: that's ready for you. I think that's beautifully said. I
Speaker 1: think that's exactly right. And maybe because a place like
Speaker 1: eric Trea you come to without preconceived ideas. Everybody knows
Speaker 1: what they want to see when they go to Tokyo
Speaker 1: right or Paris, or I've got friends staying with me
Speaker 1: right now, they've got a list for New York City.
Speaker 1: And given that we have such a surplus of information
Speaker 1: usually about everything these days, it's just so refreshing to
Speaker 1: go with a deficit of information and information, and deficit
Speaker 1: you can't even fill by googling the crap out of
Speaker 1: it because it doesn't exist in that way. That's kind
Speaker 1: of a pioneer thing. You feel that you might as
Speaker 1: well be the only person discovering this. To be honest,
Speaker 1: it was a rush for me in that year. I
Speaker 1: mean there were moments I would feel it and on Eritrea,
Speaker 1: you know, there's like a secret handshake of internationals who
Speaker 1: have been there, and actually handshake is the wrong word.
Speaker 1: It's more like a shoulder bump, because traditionally the old
Speaker 1: fighters when they meet, they don't shake hands. They bump
Speaker 1: their right shoulders together three times. It's a bit awkward
Speaker 1: at first, but you kind of get used to it.
Speaker 1: And at first I wasn't sure whether I was allowed
Speaker 1: to do that, given that I'm not exactly a fighter.
Speaker 1: I didn't exactly earn my spurs, but you know, they're
Speaker 1: quite open, so you sort of shoulder bump. And there's
Speaker 1: a sort of community of people who have been to Eritrea,
Speaker 1: and so there's something quite special about that. That is
Speaker 1: the beauty of going off the beaten track. So I
Speaker 1: would love to challenge people to go and find the
Speaker 1: other error trials of the world in the most respectful,
Speaker 1: most appropriate way. I mean, perhaps it's somewhere in Ohio,
Speaker 1: some part of Greenland that you could go and learn
Speaker 1: something similar. The world is open, it's ready, you just
Speaker 1: have to go. Totally agree. Thank you for spending time
Speaker 1: with me. This was spectacular. Do you tell such beautiful stories.
Speaker 1: Thank you for wanting to hear them. This is a
Speaker 1: great moment for us to travel to advertising Land and
Speaker 1: we'll be right back with Everywhere. Welcome once again to Everywhere.
Speaker 1: Let's hop back to it. For my next interview, I'm
Speaker 1: with my friend Nancy Silverton the Share of Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: We talk about how bord is are not just physical
Speaker 1: but metaphysical and emotional. Okay, so what I wanted us
Speaker 1: to really talk about is my show is about funk
Speaker 1: the list. Don't chank off anything. Food is a way
Speaker 1: to take you into humanity, and travel is an equal
Speaker 1: way away to touch humanity. You've made a carea of food,
Speaker 1: I've made a careat of travel. But essentially we're looking
Speaker 1: for the same thing. We're looking to find ways to
Speaker 1: be with humanity, right, absolutely, So tell me how that
Speaker 1: feels to you and what you think about. Well, I'll
Speaker 1: tell you. I live for food. I live to eat,
Speaker 1: I live to make food. All of it is very interconnected.
Speaker 1: I love to cook because, first of all, I love
Speaker 1: to use my hands. So the cooking that I do
Speaker 1: is very simple cooking where I use rolling pins to
Speaker 1: roll out does and I use knives to chop and
Speaker 1: I use my favorite wooden spoons to stir. Right, And
Speaker 1: there's something that I connect with those very very basic tools.
Speaker 1: I am so inspired most of all with produce. That
Speaker 1: is what really gets me thinking. That's where I start
Speaker 1: to create a dish is from produce, and from that
Speaker 1: it turns into whether it's a salad or a vegetable
Speaker 1: or a compliment to a protein, it always starts with produce,
Speaker 1: and it always starts with myself. No matter where I
Speaker 1: am and what country, no matter what city, no matter
Speaker 1: what state, it starts at the farmer's market, and that's
Speaker 1: my way of connecting with the city. So first and
Speaker 1: foremost my pleasure when it comes to food is actually
Speaker 1: being able to prepare the food. I get so much
Speaker 1: joy when I make food that makes people happy. And
Speaker 1: then so it's the preparing, it's the joy that I bring.
Speaker 1: But it's being at the table with friends. There's nowhere
Speaker 1: else I would want to be then at that table,
Speaker 1: if it's two or fifty with delicious food. That's where
Speaker 1: all my friends always gravitated because there was such interesting
Speaker 1: conversation at my dinner table. You know. I grew up
Speaker 1: in an era where there was definitely um most mothers
Speaker 1: were non working mothers, right, they were working in the household,
Speaker 1: but not out of the household. The father would come
Speaker 1: home a little cocktail hour down to a very sterile dinner.
Speaker 1: And I didn't grow up that way. Um my mother did.
Speaker 1: She was a homemaker, but she was also a writer,
Speaker 1: so she wrote from the house. And my father was
Speaker 1: a lawyer and they were very very political, and they
Speaker 1: had very interesting friends. And always at the dinner table
Speaker 1: at my house was just a whole lot of how
Speaker 1: healthy conversation. Just the being fed, the comfort just brought
Speaker 1: out so many wonderful conversations. And my parents were just
Speaker 1: so well read and so opinionated. That's really where I
Speaker 1: learned everything, you know, I really learned so much more
Speaker 1: at that table than I did at school. But see,
Speaker 1: like these conversations with my parents, they wouldn't have happened
Speaker 1: if one of my parents said let's sit down and
Speaker 1: talk and there was no food, right, an empty table
Speaker 1: could be the same, sitting nothing in front of them.
Speaker 1: I don't think there would have been that conversation because
Speaker 1: I think so much goes on with each bite because
Speaker 1: it's a story. You know, food is a story, And
Speaker 1: when I taste people's food that I can't taste their story.
Speaker 1: It's just so one note. Half the time, you don't
Speaker 1: even need to know who's cooking it. You taste it
Speaker 1: and you taste the story of that of whoever that is.
Speaker 1: That's responsible and that's the best kind of food. Right.
Speaker 1: So I have this little thing that I always say.
Speaker 1: I say that travel is a way to lose yourself
Speaker 1: to find yourself. Maybe you want to tell me a
Speaker 1: little bit about how you see that if that rings truth, well,
Speaker 1: I think it also has to do with what kind
Speaker 1: of travel you do. So if you are a somebody
Speaker 1: that from your comfort comfort of your own home city,
Speaker 1: plan out a trip where every minute is accounted for,
Speaker 1: for instance, being met at the airport in whatever city
Speaker 1: it is, being driven to whatever hotel that you've planned,
Speaker 1: being picked up for whatever meal. Some people that's the
Speaker 1: way they have to travel, as every step has to
Speaker 1: be because they are afraid of the unknown. But if
Speaker 1: you can travel, this is thing that I definitely learned
Speaker 1: from my father. If you can pack a suitcase and
Speaker 1: make a plane ticket and pack your passport and just
Speaker 1: go and probably have a hotel because that helps to
Speaker 1: have a hotel, But sort of the rest is just
Speaker 1: the excitement of the unknown and exploring. It's a whole
Speaker 1: different kind of trip. And that's the only way I
Speaker 1: know how to travel. I've never been on a guided
Speaker 1: tour or anything like that. Um, sometimes if I'm going
Speaker 1: to a city that I know, there are a couple
Speaker 1: of restaurants that are hard to get into, and it's
Speaker 1: it helps to have a reservation before I will do that.
Speaker 1: But most of it is open because you never know
Speaker 1: what's down that alley? Right, tell me a story about
Speaker 1: what you found. You went down an alley somewhere, you
Speaker 1: turned left someway where you were going to turn right.
Speaker 1: That's like every experience that I have traveling is like
Speaker 1: that really is going out the door and turning right. Um.
Speaker 1: I love to collect antique. I don't know if they're
Speaker 1: a wuntics, but old coffee grinders, which I use for
Speaker 1: pepper grinders or pepper mills. So they're square boxes with
Speaker 1: a drawer and a grinder. But when I cook, I
Speaker 1: love to cook with very coarse, crack black pepper, and
Speaker 1: the only way to get that coarseness is to break
Speaker 1: the peppercorns with the back of a um frying pan
Speaker 1: to crack them because I like them that course, especially
Speaker 1: on steaks, so you really crunch into them. But with
Speaker 1: these coffee grinders, you can turn the grinder to a
Speaker 1: very coarse grind, and just by turning the crank and
Speaker 1: opening up the drawer, you have a whole lot of
Speaker 1: pepper to season with. And I love them and they're beautiful.
Speaker 1: So um, there's just so many examples I just don't
Speaker 1: have on the top of my head of just pulling
Speaker 1: up to a tiny hilltop town in my own region
Speaker 1: of Umbria where you know, where I have a house
Speaker 1: and just getting out and whether it's a a full
Speaker 1: cheese store, a bakery, you know, those are the kinds
Speaker 1: of things. A beautiful church that you opened the door.
Speaker 1: You know, it's all that discovery. That's what travel is
Speaker 1: for me. Right. Travel has a way that it offers
Speaker 1: you an opportunity to try everything right. So, like, if
Speaker 1: you're willing to right, well, that's why I want you
Speaker 1: to tell me, you know, I mean, you've got to
Speaker 1: go with the punches. You know, it's not all gonna
Speaker 1: be success, and there's gonna be some setbacks and some difficulty.
Speaker 1: You know, Like last time I was in Mexico City, right,
Speaker 1: I was in a very uh crowded actually bakery, and
Speaker 1: I got my wallet stolen out of my purse. So
Speaker 1: it could have ruined my trip, or I could have
Speaker 1: had a great time the last two days that I
Speaker 1: was there, and that's what I chose, you know, So
Speaker 1: you have to expect that things can happen. You know.
Speaker 1: I have some friends that I travel with, and I
Speaker 1: have to say they're a lot pickier than I am,
Speaker 1: and so We'll go to a hotel that they hadn't
Speaker 1: already checked out online to see the rooms, and when
Speaker 1: they get there, some of them have to change rooms
Speaker 1: two or three or four. You know, it's like, I
Speaker 1: really don't care. You know, You're like, I'm going out,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, So I think there's you have to
Speaker 1: have that willingness to accept the unknown, except that it's
Speaker 1: not going to be seamless. But that's part of the adventure.
Speaker 1: And sometimes adventures are the memories. They always I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't think you come back and you say, oh, yes,
Speaker 1: I stayed at this lovely hotel, like oh in the hotel,
Speaker 1: the hotel hotel, that's boring thing. Oh my god, No,
Speaker 1: you tell me about I met this pusson and we
Speaker 1: went on this wild adventure. I met them randomly at
Speaker 1: the coffee shop, said saying, they were like, come to
Speaker 1: a dinner, and I said, my god, of course. And
Speaker 1: the next thing, I'm at a fucking crazy party at
Speaker 1: someone's house, right, And you you know what, you wouldn't
Speaker 1: get that experience at of a guide book. Can't can't
Speaker 1: put down the book please. Um, I guess we should
Speaker 1: talk about a little bit of Los Angeles because you
Speaker 1: are so quintessentially Los Angeles and from Los Angeles. But
Speaker 1: I think if people think about the food scene of
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, it's you like you my first person who
Speaker 1: comes to mind. Um, and l A was never a
Speaker 1: food town. As much as it had the best what
Speaker 1: it was, it was just not recognized because when okay,
Speaker 1: so when people thought about food, they thought about food
Speaker 1: being cooked by a foodie. Does that make sense to
Speaker 1: our listeners? Okay, they didn't think about all of the
Speaker 1: neighborhoods that Los Angeles has more than anywhere else in
Speaker 1: the country where the people are cooking their food. I mean,
Speaker 1: so many ethnic neighborhoods in Los Angeles where the food
Speaker 1: has always been so wonderful. And so I think when
Speaker 1: people started recognizing the food of immigrants as food, all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, people started looking at Los Angeles, where
Speaker 1: we always supported that food and that food culture. Well,
Speaker 1: because in some ways, they did this offensive thing in
Speaker 1: America where they called food that wasn't in parentheses American,
Speaker 1: they called it exotic, exotic you, I mean, to me,
Speaker 1: that's racists. But I think that Los Angeles to me,
Speaker 1: and I was a closet lover of Los Angeles if
Speaker 1: you had to be a closet lover. And by the way,
Speaker 1: I never I never defended it. When you know, when
Speaker 1: people would ask me that you know, where are you from,
Speaker 1: and I would say Los Angeles. I hate Los Angeles,
Speaker 1: horrible city, I wouldn't. I wouldn't defend it because I
Speaker 1: understood why people had that feeling, because this is a
Speaker 1: city you have to spend time in to get to know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: even just the distance, and just just because of that. Yes,
Speaker 1: I feel like Los Angeles is on the up. It's
Speaker 1: a city that's moving up and that I love it.
Speaker 1: When I come, I find myself mesmerized every time and
Speaker 1: sort of a little sad that I'm leaving. But I'm
Speaker 1: in New Yorker, which is you know, we were never
Speaker 1: supposed to love Los Angeles. We were supposed to deny
Speaker 1: Los Angeles. You were supposed to hate it Los Angeles. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it feels like every time I'm like, God, I'm someone new,
Speaker 1: Like what is the smell? Yeah? Of course it's gentrifying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's a natural poblicity. And there's obviously two sides
Speaker 1: to that, um, but hopefully we have It's California, so
Speaker 1: there's an overside hand that's not an overside, there's a
Speaker 1: over rule hand that's positive right where it's like, we're
Speaker 1: going to try and make this as sustainable and ecologically
Speaker 1: as possible in a major city. I think the mayor
Speaker 1: has done an amazing job. I think that he's doing
Speaker 1: his best. I mean, they could do something about the homeless.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, the homelessness is it was. I
Speaker 1: wish it was sad, simple, you know, but it's just
Speaker 1: out of control now, right. But I'm tired of saying that,
Speaker 1: Like that's the thing that I'm like, I'm kind of saying, like,
Speaker 1: the homeless is, what a problem? I'm like, we need
Speaker 1: to do smash shootings. It's terrible, right. Are we sick
Speaker 1: of hearing that? I'm sick hearing. Yeah. No, it is true,
Speaker 1: and it's not happening fast enough, is the problem. And
Speaker 1: it's getting worse. And I have to say, I haven't
Speaker 1: seen homeless, the homeless situation at this grandeur anywhere else
Speaker 1: in the country. It is the worst here right now.
Speaker 1: Maybe what I want to end the chap with is
Speaker 1: maybe I want you to tell me something really personal
Speaker 1: about you, something that you're not sharing that's been in
Speaker 1: your hand and just something that you like no one's
Speaker 1: ever cost, but no one's ever asked me, and I
Speaker 1: don't I have to say, I don't feel like I'm
Speaker 1: unique in this feeling. I obviously have gotten a lot
Speaker 1: of notoriety. I've gotten a lot of awards, I have
Speaker 1: successful businesses, people's taught me on the street, all those
Speaker 1: kinds of acknowledgement, and yet like, not even deep down,
Speaker 1: just a little bit down, I'm always thinking, like, when
Speaker 1: are they going to find out that I'm really an imposter,
Speaker 1: that I'm not that talented and I don't really know
Speaker 1: what I'm doing and somehow I make it work and
Speaker 1: I've been fooling them all And you can't shake that feeling.
Speaker 1: I have that feelings too, Yeah, and I am in
Speaker 1: no ways as you are, but the age remember, but
Speaker 1: I have it too. I think, what is that? It's
Speaker 1: a deep insecurity that people have that we allow others
Speaker 1: to check our value system. You know, now I'm putting
Speaker 1: a podcast, I'm putting a creative project into the world,
Speaker 1: and for the first time, it's not a magazine or
Speaker 1: The New York Times or whoever I'm writing for directing
Speaker 1: it I'm directing this with my wonderful producer and we
Speaker 1: he's my creative ally, but I'm scripting it. It's it's
Speaker 1: my thing. So here I'm putting my soul everything out
Speaker 1: into the world, and I'm going, how do we value this? Oh,
Speaker 1: it's downloads and streams and advertising dollar And that's petrifying
Speaker 1: to me because I'm only interested in the construction and
Speaker 1: destruction of the creative process. The rest of the stuff
Speaker 1: is like, I've never had to think of myself like
Speaker 1: that and value myself like that because I've probably constructed
Speaker 1: a world around me that I didn't have to because funk,
Speaker 1: what if I'm not good enough? And what does that mean?
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's hard to put a value
Speaker 1: on a creative expression. And you've taken your creativity and
Speaker 1: people pay money for it, so of course you have
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, we am I worth a hundred
Speaker 1: dollar ticket at lunch? And am I worth the bill?
Speaker 1: And that's fucking scary, it is, But maybe it's okay
Speaker 1: because every day when when I feel like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: like what is this now, I just have to stand
Speaker 1: in my posture and say, only you want the answer,
Speaker 1: judge this the rest of all doesn't matter. But it's
Speaker 1: fucking tough. It is, and I am my harshest critic
Speaker 1: for myself. But I don't feel like I'm ake a
Speaker 1: judgmental person and I'm always looking to judge people. I'm not,
Speaker 1: but I do judge to myself. But you're a success,
Speaker 1: and you're so wonderful, and you so Sweden, and you
Speaker 1: screw me, So what is that to judge? I'll let
Speaker 1: you know what I am on your show next time.
Speaker 1: If I figured out what that was, you can ask
Speaker 1: me that I will make a notes. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: for thank you. What a pleasure. Yeah, what a pleasure
Speaker 1: that you didn't ask me what my last meal would be?
Speaker 1: Or if I had to design my perfect dinner party
Speaker 1: alive or Dad? You know who would those be? You know,
Speaker 1: it's like really, or would it like to be a
Speaker 1: woman in the kitchen? It's like, you're a woman. So
Speaker 1: I have a plan to catch but if you'd still
Speaker 1: like to reach us, go to Everywhere Podcast on Instagram,
Speaker 1: Everywhere Pod on Twitter, all the website at everywhere podcast
Speaker 1: dot com. Thanks for hanging out. I'm Daniel Shaffler and
Speaker 1: I'll see you everywhere for more podcasts from I heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.