1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: as the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: Serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden, 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: a series called The Burden Empire on Blood and it's 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood, 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: which reached number one on the charts when it debuted 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled 10 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: to share this story of a man who fought the 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Louis Scarcela 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh, 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. 15 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 2: I'm Dax Devlin Ross and I'm Steve Fishman. 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 1: Welcome to a bonus episode of The Burden. We call 17 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:10,199 Speaker 1: this one Teresa Gomez speaks and it's a special. 18 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 3: One, which, as you know, we say for each of them, 19 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 3: but this one is special. Teresa has been a crucial 20 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 3: element of the Scarcella story, a cause of both his 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 3: rise and his fall. So, if you recall, Teresa Gomez 22 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 3: was Scarcella's go to witness. She seemed, for a period 23 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 3: in time at least to be everywhere all the time, 24 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 3: witnessed eleven murders. According to Scarcella, she helped him solve 25 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 3: cold cases, and that helped propel him to first grade detective. 26 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 3: But she was also a crack addict who had a 27 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 3: fair amount of trouble keeping her story straight on the 28 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 3: witness stand. Remember in episode four we read from that transcript, 29 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 3: and in one trial she said she because she basically 30 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 3: was in a bad mood. She was so unreliable that 31 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 3: the district attorney later moved to overturn three murder convictions 32 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:14,679 Speaker 3: in which she was the sole eyewitness. And yet Detective 33 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 3: Scarcella was an unwavering believer. 34 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 4: Teresa Gomez is a motion picture extravagance, or in herself 35 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 4: a story. Her story is unbelievable, and I believed every 36 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 4: word she said. 37 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 3: But are we believers? A jury and a judge decide 38 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 3: on credibility in large part by hearing a person speak 39 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 3: Teresa's been dead for thirty years, and we Steve and I, 40 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 3: we never had an opportunity to hear her voice. 41 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: And since she died, neither has anyone else until now. 42 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 5: This is Kenneth Arthur Rigby, Assistant District Attorney King's County 43 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 5: District Attorney's Office, and I'm presently at the inside the 44 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 5: video room at ecabin and also present as as a 45 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,959 Speaker 5: civilian who will be giving an audiotape. 46 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 6: Stigle momentarily, and. 47 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 2: Your name is. 48 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: This is tape that came to me in an email 49 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: from Nathan Tempe, who's our dogged researcher, And in that 50 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: email was a link to audio of Teresa Gomez giving 51 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: it an account of the killing of a friend of 52 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: hers named Deborah Allen. She was the sole eye witness 53 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: in that case too. We're going to play a bunch 54 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: of this tape. I'm gonna say upfront, I was stunned 55 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: by Teresa's account and the way she presented it. I mean, 56 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: what was your first reaction to her voice, her presentation. 57 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: My first reaction to Teresa's voice is that she's buried 58 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 3: in New York. It didn't expect her to have such 59 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: a strong, like New York like Brooklyn accent. I didn't expect. 60 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 3: I don't know why I don't know why, and it 61 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 3: was like, why was this surprise to me? But the real, 62 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 3: the real reaction I had was, you know, you listen 63 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 3: to her, You're like, Oh, she's just a little more 64 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 3: credible than I think it might otherwise appear. 65 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: We'd love to know what you think. Please let us 66 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: know by calling eight three three eight Burden. 67 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: We got our ace researcher Nathan into the studio to 68 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 3: assess Teresa's statement to an assistant district attorney the night 69 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: her friend Deborah was shot and killed. 70 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 2: Nathan introduced yourself. 71 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 7: My name is Nathan Tempey. I'm a journalist and a 72 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 7: criminal defense investigator. 73 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: I want to mention that this particular case is very 74 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: significant to Detective Scarceller because he's told us many times 75 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: that this case shows that Teresa was a truth teller. 76 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 3: We'll evaluate that claim later, but let's first go to 77 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 3: the night of the crime. Like many Scarcella stories, this 78 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 3: one begins with a dead body, please. 79 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 2: Stop, break, please try to come in. Throw the woman 80 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 2: under my window. And what happened to I'm making I 81 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 2: don't know. She was screaming. 82 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 3: It makes shut she's dead under my window. 83 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:45,799 Speaker 6: She's dead. 84 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 3: Yes, she leaned in a pool of blood. 85 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: All right, calm down. 86 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 3: Here's Scarcella's recollection of what happened the night of the murder. 87 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 8: Old Win Tonight seven to seventh precinct is how to 88 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 8: be eighty three, eighty four or eighty five. I'm sleeping 89 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 8: in the dorm, tired. 90 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: Get a call. 91 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 8: Come on, Louis, you got a fresh one, I says Jesus. 92 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 8: Debrah Allen, a light skinned black girl from California, A 93 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 8: beautiful girl. 94 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: Here she is, lion. 95 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 8: I believe it was Bedford Avenue. No witnesses, just a body. 96 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 8: So here I am saying, Oh God, here I go 97 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 8: another one. I got nothing. 98 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: A light goes off. Teresa lives around the block. Hey, 99 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 2: what the hell? Go around? I ring the bell. 100 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 8: I could still hear it. Teresa comes down. She opens 101 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 8: the door. 102 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 9: She says, gun smoke. He shot my baby. He shot 103 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 9: my baby, says Teresa. Who she said, Glenn? I said, Teresa, 104 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 9: are you there? 105 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,679 Speaker 8: She said, gun smoke? Did she have a crack pipe 106 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 8: in a left pocket? A five hour bill in our 107 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 8: right pocket? 108 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 2: Go back? 109 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 8: Sure enough she does. 110 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: Okay, So what really happened? 111 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 7: I'm gonna preface this by saying we've gotten a lot 112 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 7: of information on this case. We have the DD five's, 113 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 7: the police reports, we have Glenn Monstercue's appeals, we have 114 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,559 Speaker 7: the Conviction Review Unit report when the Brooklyn DIA's office 115 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 7: went back twenty five years later and looked at this 116 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 7: case because Teresa Gomez and Luis Garcela were involved. So 117 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 7: I feel like we do have a pretty thorough picture 118 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,119 Speaker 7: at this point. We've looked for Glenn Monskue, we couldn't 119 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 7: find him. And I could go through some points of 120 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 7: Scarcela's story. You know, he says cold winter night is June. 121 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 7: It's not eighty three, eighty forty five. 122 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's thirty years ago. 123 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 7: Sure, but there's definitely some artistic license happening. Here's June second, 124 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 7: nineteen eighty seven. It's three something in the morning, Crown Heights, Brooklyn. 125 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 7: Deborah Allen's shot four or five times in the chest 126 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 7: and head. Louis comes out eight am according to his 127 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 7: own DD five. And so he does bring Teresa Gomez 128 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 7: into the case, and she is an important witness and 129 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 7: she has a whole, very involved account of what happened. 130 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 7: She seems to have known Deborah Allen really well. They 131 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 7: both used crack together. They ran in the same circles, 132 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 7: they lived in the same area, and it sounds like 133 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 7: they were together that night. 134 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 2: All right, Dax, that's the night of the murder. 135 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 3: So Scarcella brings Teresa in to give a statement to 136 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 3: the district attorneys. 137 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 6: Do you know anything about the sense? Yes? I do. 138 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 6: Well you see another victim? Yes? 139 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: I do. 140 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 6: And how do you know her? Okay? And how long 141 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 6: do you know her? I don't know, for like five 142 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 6: six years? And did you see her today? Yes? I did? 143 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 6: And when did you first see her? Notions and thrilling? Okay? 144 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 5: And what did you do? 145 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 10: I called out to her and she says she wanted 146 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 10: to take a smoke. She came, she bought something. Then 147 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 10: she came on my place and she smoked I crack 148 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 10: and I smoked the rifa. 149 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: So let's walk through the case. Now, Teresa gomes a story. 150 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 7: Is that a guy she knows as Glenn, who turns 151 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 7: out to be Glenn Monsque, had dated Deborah Allen. They 152 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 7: had a child together, they had broken up. She apparently 153 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 7: was using more crack and had gotten custody of the 154 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 7: child and was maybe prostituting herself, supposedly leaving this child 155 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 7: in dangerous situations while she went out and did drugs 156 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 7: and some combination of jealousy and anger. Over all of 157 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 7: this prompted Glenn to come after her. 158 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 6: He says, no, I. 159 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 10: Just got to teach her a lesson because she's gonna, 160 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 10: you know, ridiculous. She had the baby taken away from 161 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 10: me and left leave the kid in now. So at times, 162 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 10: I'm just to go out with different men's and different hotels. 163 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 6: This was the way he was describing. 164 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: I think she's so. According to he says that he's 165 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: looking for Debra. 166 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 10: So then he says, well, I'm looking for that bitch. 167 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 10: I want to lay her, lay her out. So he said, 168 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 10: you're gonna lay her out? 169 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 6: I said, leave the girl. You know, he told himself, pus, 170 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 6: he has an little face on it. You know, you 171 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 6: can get himself another girl. 172 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: But that night he comes to the apartment. 173 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 7: According to Tresa Gomez, they're having this big argument in 174 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 7: the apartment. 175 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 6: This is no, I'm not. 176 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 10: Gonna have this ship on my place. You leave my place, please. 177 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 10: Then he finally goes downstairs. She goes downstairs behind I said, 178 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 10: deb He's not gonna trouble talk to the fucking means, 179 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 10: is I said John crazy because you are in love 180 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 10: with each other. 181 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 7: She thinks that they are in love and they need 182 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 7: to talk this out, but not in her apartment because 183 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,359 Speaker 7: it's a little loud, and so they all go downstairs. 184 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 7: Deborah tries to bring a kitchen knife with her. She 185 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 7: wants to bring it downstairs. She's scared of Glenn. Teresa 186 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 7: takes the kitchen knife, and so Deborah settles for a razor. 187 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 7: One of the first d D five's notes that Deva's 188 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 7: lying there dead. She has a razor clenched in her 189 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 7: left hand, so this is definitely corroborated. Glenn's outside in 190 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 7: the area. They're yelling back and forth. 191 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 10: She says, I'm not going down there because it's gonna 192 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 10: hurt me. He's gonna hurt me. 193 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 6: I know him. He's gonna hurt me. He says, Debah, 194 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 6: give me angry. 195 00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 7: And she says, I know you. You're gonna hurt me. 196 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 7: This is all kind of like a moving argument. At 197 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 7: some point it comes to a head. 198 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 6: She broke picked up a broken bottle and broken in 199 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 6: the street. She says, before I see him hit me, 200 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 6: I'll kill him. I'm kill him. That's all she kept saying. 201 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 6: So she's shotted, backing up away from him with a 202 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 6: broken glass in her hand. 203 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 3: Did she still have the right black? 204 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 10: She still had the little money to play in the 205 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 10: hand in one hand and the. 206 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 6: Bottle and the other uh huh. 207 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 7: Deborah breaks a bottle of wild there's rose, or finds 208 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 7: a broken bottle. So now she's got a razor in 209 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 7: her left hand and a broken bottle in her right hand. 210 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 6: Says, I'm gonna give you one one hands, never start 211 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 6: the same. I don't want to kill you. I don't 212 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 6: want to kill you. She kept telling her mom, kill you. 213 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 6: She was coming. 214 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 10: Towards her face and before and I just like went 215 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 10: inside cool started flying shots. 216 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 6: Then I seemed devil go down. 217 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 7: And so in Teresa's story, in her final moments, Deborah 218 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 7: Allen is coming at this Glenn with the bottle and 219 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 7: the razor, and then she's shot once in the chester abdomen, 220 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 7: and she's still swinging at him as he shoots another 221 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,119 Speaker 7: few times in her chest and head. 222 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: Can you invite them? What part to buy a perky 223 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: shot at case. 224 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 6: Crowd? 225 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 4: Think I can get you a brush? 226 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: A female shot in chests two times? 227 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 3: Okay? 228 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 8: The female be awaken. 229 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: Okay, Now this is interesting. 230 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: There was a second witness looking out a window in 231 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: an apartment above the murder scene. 232 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 7: So there's a guy in the building above where this 233 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 7: is happening. His attention is called to his window by 234 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 7: this ruckus outside. He hears this woman saying I don't 235 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 7: want to have to kill you, and there's a lot 236 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 7: of shouting back and forth. So he looks out his 237 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 7: window he sees the woman with a bottle in her hand. 238 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 7: From the available paperwork, I haven't looked at the autopsy, 239 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 7: but there's like a police worksheet where they have a 240 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 7: diagram of the human body and roughly where the bullets 241 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 7: went in. And also there's a note on that sheet 242 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 7: saying that she had powder burns and gunpowder residue on her, 243 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 7: suggesting that she was shot at close range, which in 244 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 7: Teresa Gomez's statement to the DA, she says that Debora 245 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 7: Allen was close enough to Glenn Monsky to cut his 246 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 7: face and was trying to do so at the time 247 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 7: that he shot her. So that all kind of lines up. 248 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 6: How many times stay? Four times? You're gonna stop a minute? 249 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: How does her voice strike you? Do you hear any 250 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 2: particular emotion. 251 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 7: She's clearly distraught and clearly feels very upset about the 252 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 7: loss of her friend Deborah. It would be hard to 253 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 7: listen to that and say that anything else is motivating 254 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 7: her in the short term. It's like a pretty raw 255 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 7: account of really bad night. She's upset, yes, but also 256 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 7: you know she could be on drugs. But whether or 257 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 7: not she is, she's definitely someone who's not well sounding. 258 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 7: Would you agree with that? 259 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: Well, I actually hear upset more than I hear anything else. Okay, 260 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, I could be. 261 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: Wrong, but I hear her like real connection to Debra Allen. 262 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: I mean, do you believe her listening to her? Yeah, 263 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 2: I mean the substance of it. 264 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 7: Yes, as far as we can tell from what we have, 265 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 7: it seems like, to use a Scarcella term, she got 266 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 7: it right. 267 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: So, in short, you find her to be credible in 268 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 2: this one instance. 269 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 7: I'm not making any grand pronouncements about Teresa Gomez broadly, Here's. 270 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: What I'm wondering. 271 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 3: We're familiar with Teresa's testimony on the witness stand months 272 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 3: after the crime, and it was wildly incredible, to say 273 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 3: the least, what we're hearing here in this audio is 274 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 3: an account within hours of the killing. It's also worth 275 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 3: noting that this is an account Scarcilla would have heard 276 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 3: as well. And I gotta say, in this account, Teresa's 277 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 3: sounds credible. 278 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 7: And so yeah, I think it's very possible that she 279 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 7: was reliable in this case in unreliable in others. I 280 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 7: don't think that there's anything to groundbreaking that idea, and 281 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 7: I would caution anybody to into totally black and white 282 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 7: thinking when it comes to dealing with people who are complex. 283 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: Last thing Nathan about the crack pipe, Scarcela says was 284 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: in Debra Allen's pocket. 285 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 7: Scarcella said the thing about the vial of crack in 286 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 7: her pocket, which there was. 287 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: One in the list of vouchered items. There was a 288 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: crack pipe and a crack vial. So now to why 289 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: Scarcella sees this case as so significant. 290 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 3: So Scarcella claims that this case offers evidence that Teresa 291 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 3: was a truthful witness. Just look at what happened in 292 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 3: the courtroom. 293 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: Says Scarcela. 294 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 3: It's months later and Glenn Monsacue is about to go 295 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 3: to trial. Montacue pleads not guilty. It's the eve of 296 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 3: jury selection, before the jury has chosen, Scarcella says, something 297 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 3: happened with Monsacue. 298 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 8: We go to court. Teresa Gomez is the only witness. 299 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 8: Teresa Gomez goes in court the bad guy Orsitar turns 300 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 8: to his attorney, he coped out. 301 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 2: All right, Nathan, what really happened? So forget about Scarcela's story. 302 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 7: There's not a Eureka moment where Teresa Gomez emerges from 303 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 7: the back and he pleads guilty on the spot. 304 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 2: But she was part of the leverage. 305 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 7: Presumably, the DA is going to Glenn Monscue's defense attorney saying, yeah, 306 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 7: we've got this great witness on deck. 307 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 2: We're ready to go. You know, if you don't take 308 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 2: this plea right now, we're going. The original offer is 309 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 2: seven and a half to fifteen years for manslaughter. He 310 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 2: doesn't take it. Earlier in the year. 311 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 7: Now the offer is seven and a half to twenty 312 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 7: two for manslaughter. It's plea or go to trial, and 313 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 7: his lawyer tells him, you have to take this right now. 314 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: Montacute takes the deal, and almost immediately he regrets it. 315 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 7: So he spends much of his seven years in prison 316 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 7: writing a series of appeals based on his problems with 317 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 7: his lawyer's representation. 318 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 3: In his appeals. He argues that he was pressured to 319 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 3: take a deal he didn't want to take. After all, 320 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: even Teresa said that Deborah was charging him with a 321 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 3: razor blade in one hand and a broken bottle in 322 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 3: the other, he might have had a compelling self defense 323 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 3: argument to make a trial. 324 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: But let's get back to Teresa's audio count, which you know, 325 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: really surprised me. I expected somebody who, like the person 326 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: in the transcripts, can't keep things straight and has like 327 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: a laybile personality and her emotions appear from the transcripts 328 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: to be all over the place, and this felt like 329 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: a real person. I listened to that statement, and I 330 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: hear what you're saying about corroborating evidence. I believe her, 331 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: And frankly, that kind of shocks me because she has 332 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: completely dismissed as a credible witness. I mean, wouldn't you 333 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: agree that the kind of cross the board dismissal of 334 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: her as a credible witness seems belied by this particular 335 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: case and the statement. 336 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 7: From what I have in front of me, it sounds 337 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 7: like what she said is roughly what probably happened. 338 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: So Nathan, share with me, what were your thoughts as 339 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: you were listening to her statement. 340 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 2: I felt very sad listening to that. 341 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 7: It definitely makes it feel like less of an academic 342 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 7: exercise to assess her truthfulness or her role. 343 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 2: In all these cases. 344 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 7: I feel like there are a lot of Teresa Gomez's 345 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 7: in the world, and it's rare that we dig this 346 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 7: deeply into their lives. 347 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 3: The CRU, the Conviction Review Unit, they examine this case 348 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 3: because of the involvement of Scarcella and of course Theresa, 349 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 3: but they didn't move to overturn the conviction. 350 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: Why does the cru not overturn it. 351 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 7: They have the second witness, they have the guilty plea, 352 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 7: and then also him acknowledging guilt at the parole boards. 353 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 7: It's a very serious thing the system that the DA's office, 354 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 7: the judges don't want to disturb a conviction if they 355 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 7: can avoid it. I think that at the end of 356 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 7: the day, this type of crime, the general public does 357 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 7: not care, which is very callous to say, but people 358 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 7: in Deborah Allen and Glenn Monsky's position in our society 359 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 7: are not. It's not making a splash when Debora Allen 360 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 7: is murdered, so just the fact that the system is 361 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 7: humming away in the background and that someone's being held 362 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 7: accountable is enough for a lot of people and homicide 363 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 7: detective if they want to make their arrest. So this 364 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,239 Speaker 7: seemed like a pretty easy case for them. They want 365 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 7: their pound of flesh. They're not gonna let them walk 366 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 7: away after shooting somebody. 367 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening again, we'd love to hear what you 368 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 3: think of Teresa Gomes's credibility. One eight three three eight Burden. 369 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 3: We've got more bonus episodes coming, at least. 370 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 6: Eight of them. 371 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 3: If you're a subscriber, please subscribe on Apple Podcast by 372 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 3: going to the show page and clicking on True Crime Clubhouse. 373 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 6: It's just two. 374 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 3: Ninety nine a month. You get everything early and ad free, 375 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 3: plus all the bonus episodes. Again, it's only to ninety 376 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 3: nine a month, less than a cup of coffee in Brooklyn. 377 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 2: At least, which is we admit, really messed up. 378 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 3: This episode was produced by Drew Nellis. Our associate producer 379 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 3: and production coordinator was Austin Smith. Sound design was provided 380 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 3: by Bianca Salinas. And then there's me, Dax, Devlin Ross 381 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 3: and Steve Fishman, your hosts. The Burden is a production 382 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 3: of Orbit Media. 383 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: Season two of The Burden Empire on Blood will be 384 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: available everywhere you get your podcasts on August seventh. 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