WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 15 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.600 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:06.320 you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:09.559 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:13.400 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:15.920 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:17.880 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.079 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:27.240 can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:31.480 here a podcast about things falling apart, and occasionally also 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:34.120 about what you can do about it. And today we're 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:36.960 doing We're we're going we're we're going completely full into 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.680 it what you can do about an episode and specifically 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:43.760 we're gonna be talking about unions, union organizing, the basics 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.400 of what they are and also some of the history 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.839 of it and to to talk with us about this. 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:51.800 I I have brought. I have brought my good friend 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.360 John Horonomus, who is a nurse steward with National Nurses 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:57.680 United in Chicago. Hi, John, how are you? How are 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:00.880 you doing? I'm doing good. Yeah. Esterday was my first 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:03.200 full day back at work after being out on light 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:07.679 duty from having COVID UH for this last year. And 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.479 so I got home yesterday and was pretty tired because 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:15.120 I haven't walked that much in a day. It's fine, 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.119 but I mean it was a good day. I got 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:19.880 lots of lugs from my coworkers. I didn't I didn't 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:24.119 forget anyone's name, which I was terrified of, um, and 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.760 didn't funk anything up. Um. And then when I got 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:31.080 when I got home, I hopped on after I got 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.880 my kids from school, I hopped on a union organizing 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:38.360 call with twenty nurses from a hospital in the South. 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.360 We're very excited about so um I was. It was. 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:48.200 It was a big day that that rules. Oh yeah, yeah, 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:52.360 I guess it's awesome. Do a do a very very 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:56.240 brief long COVID check in because this is everything that 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:58.240 I think people are talking about that is also like 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:03.840 a huge labor issue, which is that yeah, like long 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:07.080 COVID fucking sucks and like I know, like I know, 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:09.280 like like like one of my cousins had it, and 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.080 you know, they they've been in bad shape for a 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.160 long time, like they still can't taste properly and like 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:17.600 they I think you got from from what I remember, 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:22.360 like pretty bad like in terms of yeah, sorry, if 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:24.560 you don't have you don't want to, but oh I 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.160 don't care. I mean I think people should like know 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:29.920 that this is still going on, Like the pandemic is 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:33.760 still happening. Um, people are still getting sick and some 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.320 are still dying, which really sucks, and the long COVID 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:43.400 thing is real. Um they I didn't get sick in 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:45.480 the sense of showing up having to be in like 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:47.919 a hospital or I see you or anything like that mine, 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:53.519 but I got sick, and um, the recovery, like the 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:55.640 the year or the month or so after I got 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.920 sick was when things actually got bad because something happened 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:04.160 with my um my nerves and my neuro I had 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:09.880 a neuromuscular variant of like the long COVID symptoms, and 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:12.520 that led me to having all its kinds of issues 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:16.200 with basically just being exhausted from basic things. Anything more 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.160 than just getting up and walking around. I would have 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.880 to like lay in bed afterwards. And it would add 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.760 multiple episodes of the past year where I would cross 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.560 some invisible line in terms of like endurance and then 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.280 be stuck in bed for a week. And so it's 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:32.760 been a long thing. But I've been slowly getting better, 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:36.640 and people who fall into that neuromuscular thing do slowly 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:41.160 get better. I think that's the upshot people with heart problems, 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:46.360 those tend to be permanent and aren't getting better, which sucks. Um, 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:50.640 But yeah, I mean it's just like I think that 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.920 a lot of people. It's a very weird, surreal thing 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.840 to watch what is effectively like a like a a 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:03.840 global public health catastrophe get politicized the way it has 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.360 and treated the way it has been by everybody involved. 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:11.640 So um, anyway, I just I'm doing better with that, 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:14.960 and it's shaped me over the last year, and it's 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:20.400 shaped union organizing, and um, I'm glad that I would 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:22.160 say this to people who are thinking about unions. I'm 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.520 glad that I had the union kind of backing me up, um, 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:26.880 even when I had to pull them a little bit 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.440 in the direct the right direction. Uh. It's much better 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:33.040 to have that kind of collective power behind you when 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:37.400 you're dealing with those kind of problems. So that's actually 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:42.160 a good way into looking at just sort of in 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:46.520 general what a union is, because I think there's there's 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.680 there's two things here. There is what a union is 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:54.120 legally and what a union actually is in terms of 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.080 just the people in it and the sort of power 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.640 behind it. And so I was wondering if you could, 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:01.600 well one, I mean, is on an incredibly basic level, 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.360 explain what a union is like legally, like what is 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.920 legally defined as doing, because I feel like that's also 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.960 something that is not as well understood as it should be. Yeah, 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.760 for sure. So in the United States, there's a series 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:19.080 of laws that kind of regulates, UM, you know, the 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:25.960 kind of collective UM bargaining UM and collective organization of 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:32.279 workers at work UM. An important thing to understand is that, UM, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:38.919 those laws are mostly designed to constrain workers power to 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:45.920 affect their their you know, working conditions UM. And so 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:49.640 when you look at what a union legally is UM, 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:58.120 unions are for the most part, UM, they're legal organizations 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:00.520 that kind of like operate on a dues basis. So 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.040 if you're in a union, you're paying dues out of 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:07.240 your paycheck. UM. If you work at a unionized workplace, 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:11.520 those dudes will get subtracted out regardless of your membership 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.040 or activity within the union. UM. One thing that people 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.960 don't understand is that you can if you don't want 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:24.040 your dues to go to anything besides supporting organizing your 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:29.960 particular workplace. You can request, unions are legally required to 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:34.279 offer you that as an option. UM. And then those 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:37.040 dudes get taken out of your paycheck and they get 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:42.480 used to do things like rent a union hall um, 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:48.240 pay staffers to help you with your organizing. UM. They 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:53.800 get taken to do lobbying, various types of political activity. 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:58.279 And so for a lot of people, unions will feel 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.320 like a professional association that lobbies on their break behalf 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:07.040 rather than a collective expression of the will of workers 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:11.920 in a particular workplace. But UM, or it'll feel like 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:17.760 patronage machine for you know, Democratic party, that sort of stuff. UM. 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:22.040 But that being said, UM, unions all have by laws, 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:26.200 they all have mechanisms by which there you know, theoretically 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:33.080 democratically accountable to the membership UM. And there are oftentimes 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:39.840 UM campaigns by workers to change how unions operate and UM. 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.160 And then also you know, when you're setting up a union, 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:43.600 if you're in a new if you're in a place 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:45.640 that doesn't have a union and you're looking to get 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:50.480 a union because you're fed up with not having any 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.320 kind of power over your workplace, or you feel like 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.880 people are getting discriminity against or bullied, UM, you feel 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:59.880 like you haven't gotten a raise, um, those sorts of things. 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.000 You can pick the union that you decide if you 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.840 want to get up a collective bargaining agreement, which is 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.680 a legal contract kind of like dictating how your workplace 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.440 operates in a uniform way. You can pick the union 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.120 that you want to organize with, and their unions that 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.600 are better to organize with, that are more democratic and 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:23.120 more collectively accountable. There are unions that are more organized 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:26.480 or more focused on actually building the union power and 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:30.960 organizing new workplaces. And then there are unions that are 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:34.640 kind of like there, you know, and I'm gonna say 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.000 that kind of blur. In the US, there's like a 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:40.959 blurry line between rank and file unions and business unions 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.480 because even rank and file unions are kind of constrained 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:48.439 by the same pressures that business unions operate under. And 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.760 I'll explain the difference. I'll sell any difference in a second, 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:55.000 but I just want to say that, like when you're 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.160 when you're getting a new union, it's really important for 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:01.280 you to critically look at what you're options are and 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.760 you're set and who you're organizing with, because unions have 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:09.880 different cultures and different amounts of UM, different kinds of politics, 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.080 and you should be aware of that before you and 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.960 your coworkers decide to commit to working with one union 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:20.800 while you're getting an or a union organized. UM. And 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:22.719 then I can explain that next part if you want 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:28.800 me to. All right, so yeah, so, And you know, 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:33.080 if you get deep into union history and deep into 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:37.120 organizing and figuring out like what unions are and what 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:39.080 they do and how they've worked kind of in the past, 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.800 you'll find that there's different types of unions. So American 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:49.400 unions started as like kind of like craft guilds, where 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:51.880 basically you would have a factory that might have like 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:58.400 twenty different unions of each individual group of people UM 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.120 in each individual skill set would be underneath the union, 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:02.520 and it was used as a way to kind of 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:06.920 control UM who was able to do the work and 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.680 who was getting hired in to do the work. And 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:12.480 a lot of times that would end up in the 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:19.079 United States UM being segregated UM. And there would be 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:23.160 these called union scamming where you would go in and 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:27.600 do work against people who are striking because your union 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.040 was fine, and you were cool with your boss and 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.400 these other people, whatever their problem is, You're just going 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.680 to keep doing the boss will offer you more money 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.520 and you'll do the work right. So and a lot 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:40.440 of that has kind of carried into we called trade 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:44.760 unions in the US a specific, and trade unionism is 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:54.079 particularly um prominent in uh in construction. So you'll have carpenters, 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.160 and you'll have you know, mason's and you'll have you know, 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:01.280 pipe fitters and iron workers, all these different guys and 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:02.880 they all kind of come together and work as a 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.680 crew for like a construction company, and oftentimes their union 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:12.280 operates more like a contractor than like a collective like uh, 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:18.040 expression of the power of those workers. So um, then 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.560 there are more there are unions that are would be 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:25.640 considered like industrial unions, so industrial unions. Industrial unionism was 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:28.840 invented by a union a hundred years ago called the 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:32.640 Industrial Workers of the World, and they were like, what 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.640 if we got took all of the workers in an 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:40.240 industry and got them into one big union, right, and 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.599 then what if all those workers in those different industries 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.920 were talking to each other and building their their power 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.760 And the goal would be that you would become so 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:53.680 powerful that you could basically take over industries as workers 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.160 and run them on a democratic basis, so that you 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:02.400 wouldn't have you kind of liquidate capital. And I want, 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:04.880 I want to say that this briefly also like yeah, 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:08.440 so the bosses did not like this. I mean the MW, 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.480 Like the MW was so feared that like, like there's 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:13.760 something the Everett massacre where it's like it got to 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:15.920 a point in the early nighteen hundreds where just a 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.679 group of IWW people showing up to a place was 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:22.080 enough to get like the the the the entire like 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.120 the entire city police force and like rounding up literally 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.040 every right winger they could do and deputizing them and 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:30.120 then just opening fire like into the crowd because like 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:32.920 the IWW had showed up on a boat like this 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.280 was these people were tired, Like people were terrified of them. 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:37.840 And I think that the other thing I think was 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:42.240 really interesting about the early ww's history is that is 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:43.840 the so you know, part of the response to them 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:45.839 is like they are just massive, and this is what 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:47.600 the first red Scare was. Basically it was an anti 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:51.760 IWW thing. And also you know, they shot people, they 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:56.160 arrested people. They like they deported people. And but they 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.160 also you know a lot of the things that I 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.800 think we we have this tenants you look at as 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.880 like a socialist reform where for example, like putting workers 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:07.040 on corporate boards, right, or like like in internal democratic 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:08.839 self management, but that's like, you know, that's still still 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.680 sort of boss controlled, right, It's like, wow, Okay, you 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.920 have like a council of people who can make recommendations 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:15.880 or like even even down to you know, we're going 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:18.560 to have our own internal like corporate unions like set 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:19.880 up by the company, but you know that the corporate 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:21.520 union gives you a workers council and the council can 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.160 sort of control production. But you know, it's it's still 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:25.920 it's still run by the bosses. Like all of these 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.000 things were stuff that like the Rockefellers set up or 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:30.959 like even even the early neer levels would set the 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.120 stuffup because they were they were so scared of people, 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.880 like they were so scared of people just taking over 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:41.839 stuff democratically, just running it just literally through the union 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:44.040 that they were like we will we will literally give 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.800 you democracy in the workplace. We will give you like 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.840 we will give you like workers on corporate boards literally 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:54.960 just so long as you don't like take everything over. Yeah, 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:59.480 I think that it's it's hard for people to imagine 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:06.079 how intense like the struggle for getting any kind of 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.079 rights in the workplace have been in the United States 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.160 in particular. I think a lot of people think that, 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:17.400 you know, uh, maybe not so much anymore. But when 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.680 I was younger, you know, twenty years ago, people would 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:21.720 be like, oh, you know, we're in America. We've got 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:24.400 you know, like we've got all these things, like we've got, 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.160 you know, an eight hour work day, and we've got 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:28.600 like a weekend and all like. And the thing is 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.200 is that literally people were murdered to win those things, right, like, 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.000 if you like. The reason why we have an eight 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:39.520 hour work day is because there was in Chicago a 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:45.120 famous uh, a famous strike that um ended up with 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:49.720 a massacre of um. It was like a police riot, 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.640 and then they rounded up a bunch of union organizers, 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:58.240 socialists and anarchists who were like involved in the labor 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.800 movement at that time, and then the state of Illinois 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:06.520 hung them. Um and so the wife of one of them, 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:11.480 of one of those people who was murdered at the 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:16.440 Haymarket or they called him the Haymarket murders. H Albert 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:21.120 Parsons was one of them. Her or his wife, Lucy Parsons, 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.920 who was I had a very veritable kind of like 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:28.040 not quite sure what her background was, but we do 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:32.560 know that she was probably a former slave. Uh. Albert 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.920 Parsons was a former Confederate. They got married in the South, 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.880 became Southern Republicans trying to like participate in radical reconstruction, 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:43.640 and then they basically had to flee because they were 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.760 um with their lives to the north. And uh. But 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.440 after that whole trial and all that shook out, Lucy 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:57.280 Parsons became a labor agitator across the United States fighting 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:02.240 for the eight hour day. And and they memorialized the 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.880 Haymarket Martyrs. And something that I think some of your 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.160 listeners will know about. Maybe they won't, but you know, 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.680 made a made a lot of people is like, oh, 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:13.920 that's Russian or some foreign sort of thing. Now, that 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:18.320 is an American labor tradition that started here, and it 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:22.320 was because of a specific like the the labor movement 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:23.680 in the movement for the eight hour day in the 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:28.240 United States. So um, and that's kind of like once 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.600 you go from the IWW and industrial unions as an idea, 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.920 it got crushed in the twenties because it was so terrifying. 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.800 There's a really good, uh, a really good essay on 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:41.200 all that called the stop Watch and the Wooden Shoe 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.000 by a guy named Mike Davis, who kind of explains 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.120 how it is that IWW as the first union too 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:51.280 not only um try and build workers organization, but to 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:56.760 challenge workplace organization and to make those push back on 0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:00.240 how production was happening and fight something called this speed 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:02.640 up where I think a lot of people who have 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.040 worked have experienced this time where a boss will come 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.119 in and say we're going to do things differently, and 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.800 they'll either get rid of a worker and put all 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.480 the extra work onto people who remain, or they'll change 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:19.600 things so you're doing more with the same amount of time. Um, 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.520 they got you know, they provoked a backlash. Um. There 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:28.520 were like spectacular like general strikes, the first general strike 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:33.399 in America in Seattle. There were i w W members 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:37.520 who are key members of the Seattle Labor Council, which 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:42.200 took craft unions and got their radicals together and coordinated 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.600 a general strike which is where there's a lot of 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.000 tweets about general strikes. But general strikes require a lot 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:51.160 of organization and coordination. We can talk about that later 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:53.720 if we want to, but key thing is the i 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:58.639 w W was always pushing for the organization necessary to 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.399 pull off a general strike, and they did it. And 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.480 so amongst those different things and their mine wars in 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:12.639 Colorado mine wars and Virginia West Virginia UM, they were 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:18.560 the first union that was explicitly anti racist. UM. They 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:23.960 they weren't perfect, but they were, but they organized multi 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:29.760 racial unions in UM, Philadelphia, the Docks, and various other places. 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.960 They were one of the few unions that really took 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.200 the first steps into organizing in the South in the 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.040 way that UM A lot of unions have kind of 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:42.159 failed too since. And because they were so effective and 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.520 so frightening, they got crushed. I mean. Also, what every 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.280 thing I want I want to say about them is that, like, 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:51.320 like the WW fought in the Mexican Revolution, because you 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:54.200 know a lot of the WW members in California particular 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.280 were like a lot of a lot of indigenous people, 0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:59.880 a lot of sort of voted Mexican immigrants. So yeah, 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:02.240 they these huge ties and like they like they I think, 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.600 I think to this day this is still true outside 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:07.960 of Puerto Rico, Like they are the only leftist movement 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.640 that has ever like taking control of an American city, 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:12.800 like they they took to Lexico and Mexicality and like 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.800 a bunch of the sort of the border area. Yeah. 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:20.840 That that's that, that's you know, part of why it 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:25.240 just escalates to everyone starts shooting them because well and 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:27.920 and they were truly an international union because they were 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.879 they focused on like longshoremen and organizing and docks that 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.359 sort of thing. There were members of the i w 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:40.240 W organizing basically everywhere in the world, and they were 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:44.399 considered part of like what was like a global movement. 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.680 You call them syndicalists, which is kind of like a 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:52.080 an Italian term or French term um, which is this 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.200 the you know, like like the Latin version of the 0:19:55.600 --> 0:20:01.359 Union of Syndicate uh and um. There were similar unions 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:05.280 across the world up through the early twentieth century until 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:10.720 right about the time when the Russians, the Russian Revolution happened, 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:17.600 and then there were subsequent crackdowns. And because these people, 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:22.960 who I mean, the IWW was a mix of native 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:27.480 native born Americans and immigrants, and they were painted as 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:31.280 this foreign sort of force. They were un American. That 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.600 was like the whole nexus of un Americanism as like 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:38.920 an idea, and the US state was able to mobilize 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:43.080 after World War One to really put that down and 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:47.119 so so there's a lot of history there in that. 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:52.560 But the idea of the industrial union didn't go away, right. 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:58.679 The union, the IWW was effectively dismembered and scattered. But 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.879 a lot of people who had experience as IWW members 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:07.160 who had been in those strikes, UM didn't like just disappear. 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:10.639 They didn't all get deported or sent away. UM. A 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.680 lot of them kind of tuck their heads down and 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:18.440 went back to work, you know. And in the ninet 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:23.320 thirties we saw the rise of another industrial the next 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:27.040 step towards industrial unionism. So it's called the c i O, 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:31.240 which is the Congress of Industrial Organizations. Now there were 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:36.040 multiple at that point. There was the Communist Party USA, 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:42.200 the Socialist Party of America, and UM, former members of 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:47.840 the IWW and various like anarchists who were participants in 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:53.159 kind of the organization of the c i O. And 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:56.520 the thing about c i O was was that when 0:21:56.600 --> 0:22:00.760 they came together, UM, it was in the Great Depression 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:03.760 had really kind of kicked off, and they were able 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:09.040 to organize like really explosively across all these new industries. 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:13.360 So they like the U a W. United Auto Workers 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:16.520 was like part of the c i O. And they 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:20.200 would they pioneered forms of strikes called sit down strike, 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:25.040 which was basically a factory seizure. All the workers would 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:27.600 just say we're not going to walk out, We're going 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:30.120 to lock ourselves in and we're going to sit down 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:33.480 and it's our factory now, and now you're going to 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:39.680 have to negotiate with And it became this thing where 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:43.119 it was like millions of people were like the I 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:47.399 w W at any one time was like hundreds of 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:50.800 thousands of people, and the c i O became a 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:55.440 thing where it was millions of people and UM and 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:59.560 at least at the beginning when they had there, when 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:02.359 they had we're at the peak of their like power 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:07.600 and militancy. UM, they were able to mobilize workers to 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:11.560 take over factories, take over factories from some of the 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:16.199 most powerful corporations on the earth on Earth. And you know, 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:19.960 at the same time um. While they were doing this, 0:23:21.000 --> 0:23:27.960 the police and UH company UM company security and vigilantes 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:30.880 which had never gone away from like the IW, we're 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:33.879 doing the same sorts of things. So they would regularly 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:38.840 beat strikers, would regularly there would be you know, regular 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:46.560 labor massacres, um disappearances of various um of labor organizers 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:50.080 or labor leaders or even just random workers that they 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:53.679 thought were like, oh, you're a unionist, um, you know, 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:55.440 get in the back of this uh, get in the 0:23:55.520 --> 0:24:00.280 back of this truck. And then they were never seen again. Um. 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:04.320 And then laws started to be enacted, I believe out 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:09.720 of fear that if this, if this movement didn't get 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:13.960 somehow put under brought in under control, that there would 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:19.399 be a revolution. And so uh so that's when we 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:22.639 started to see the enactment of laws like the National 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:27.040 Labor Relations Act, which made having a union like that 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:29.720 was the first time when being any union was considered 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:35.520 legal at the federal level. And that uh the FDR 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:40.200 the New Deal Democrats basically attempted to broker something called 0:24:40.280 --> 0:24:43.800 labor peace where they would say, we're no longer going 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:48.080 to mobilize the state against workers in the way that 0:24:48.119 --> 0:24:51.679 we have previously. Now local police would still side with 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:54.960 bosses that sort of thing. But uh, and those sorts 0:24:54.960 --> 0:24:58.119 of massacres and that sort of stuff didn't really go 0:24:58.160 --> 0:25:03.919 away until like the forties. Um. But um, that was 0:25:03.960 --> 0:25:06.080 the beginning of because what you do see is unions 0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:09.520 get channeled into Once you have like a million people 0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:14.320 in the union, you have just enormous amounts of resources, 0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:18.320 all these dues coming in. You have the beginning of 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:22.240 the labor bureaucracy. Whereas before it would be you know, 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:25.119 there would be hired you know, paid labor organizers, but 0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:28.000 they were always shifting around, and they were they were 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:33.280 brought up as communists or socialists, and they had ideological 0:25:33.320 --> 0:25:35.919 commitments to building the power of the union and the 0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:38.919 power of workers that you know, if you are just 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:43.600 a you know, and someone with some ambition and decided 0:25:43.720 --> 0:25:46.320 you want to become like anyone at this point you know, 0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:49.480 who wants to become a paid union staffer. If you're 0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:53.119 like you know, if you care to and a lot 0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:58.000 of people, Um, then being a union staffer was a 0:25:58.040 --> 0:26:02.840 different thing than is now. It was. I think I'm 0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:06.840 trying to remember the name of the president. I think 0:26:06.840 --> 0:26:10.560 it's John Lewis. John Lewis, who was a Republican back 0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:13.360 in the day, said, you know, I think famously said 0:26:13.400 --> 0:26:14.640 at one point it's like, if you want to build 0:26:14.680 --> 0:26:16.440 a union, or if you want to build a house, 0:26:16.480 --> 0:26:19.080 you call a carpenter, if you want to build a union, 0:26:19.119 --> 0:26:24.600 you call communists, and so uh and so they would 0:26:24.680 --> 0:26:27.919 literally would go to like the the you know, the 0:26:27.920 --> 0:26:30.960 Communist Party and say we need organizers. And the Communist 0:26:31.040 --> 0:26:33.080 Party did a lot of work to training people to 0:26:33.080 --> 0:26:36.919 be organizers, and they were militant, they were ready to 0:26:37.440 --> 0:26:39.600 throw down because to them, they were looking at this 0:26:39.640 --> 0:26:42.760 as part of a you know, class struggle against you know, 0:26:42.920 --> 0:26:47.960 bosses and you know, a way of overthrown capital. Um. 0:26:48.000 --> 0:26:54.879 That kind of went through until World War two. And uh. 0:26:55.000 --> 0:26:59.879 When World War two hit, that's when the Soviet Union, 0:27:00.720 --> 0:27:05.160 which in many ways controlled what was happening with communists 0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:09.119 with CPUs A, basically said we need a labor piece 0:27:09.520 --> 0:27:13.560 because we need to support the war effort. And so 0:27:13.720 --> 0:27:20.320 that's when union started signing contracts with no strike clauses, 0:27:20.960 --> 0:27:24.240 and they started um agreeing that they would no longer 0:27:24.320 --> 0:27:30.159 strike um and and they started agreeing to things like 0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:34.280 speed ups. There used to be a time when uh, 0:27:34.280 --> 0:27:37.879 these mass industrial unions, the stewards would walk around with 0:27:37.920 --> 0:27:40.760 a whistle on their neck. They have a whistle on 0:27:40.800 --> 0:27:44.480 a lanyard and any time that workers decided that this 0:27:44.560 --> 0:27:47.560 is like an example of how powerful these unions were. 0:27:48.160 --> 0:27:51.560 Not just like as like an organization, but every day 0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:56.400 at your workplace, if you thought that something was not right, 0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:58.600 or you were not being treated fairly, or somehow the 0:27:58.640 --> 0:28:01.840 contract was in breach, you would go to your steward 0:28:01.920 --> 0:28:04.800 and your steward would pull out this whistle and would 0:28:04.800 --> 0:28:07.840 blow the whistle. It's called a whistle stop strike and 0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:11.320 everyone would set down their tools until management would come 0:28:11.359 --> 0:28:15.480 out and they would either agree to pay more or 0:28:16.040 --> 0:28:20.400 stop what was happening and fix it. And so um, 0:28:20.440 --> 0:28:24.560 there was a time when strikes would be you would 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:28.080 have intermittent work stoppages. So you wouldn't go out like indefinitely. 0:28:28.080 --> 0:28:30.040 You would go out on strike for like three months. 0:28:30.400 --> 0:28:33.879 Though that happened. You wouldn't just and it wouldn't just 0:28:33.880 --> 0:28:36.439 be your factory. It would be hey, we're getting on 0:28:36.440 --> 0:28:39.000 the phone and we're calling our friends down the street 0:28:39.080 --> 0:28:42.240 at the next at your supplier. It's called a secondary strike. 0:28:42.360 --> 0:28:45.520 So if you're working at like a steel mill, and 0:28:45.560 --> 0:28:49.640 your steel mills dependent on coke from the next factory over. 0:28:50.640 --> 0:28:53.120 You're calling up your friends in the same union down 0:28:53.160 --> 0:28:57.000 the way, say stop sending coke, stop sending materials. Where 0:28:57.240 --> 0:29:00.680 these things to us, we're on strike. You as you 0:29:00.720 --> 0:29:04.000 all set your tools down, you go on strike. And 0:29:04.080 --> 0:29:07.880 it would and these strikes would like massively expand so 0:29:07.920 --> 0:29:10.320 you would see things instead of seeing you know, we 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:15.640 just went through Striketober, right, yeah, and we just and 0:29:15.800 --> 0:29:17.880 so we saw like what we call a strike wave. 0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:20.640 But in and in some ways it was a strike wave. 0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:23.640 But I think that we still don't I think it's 0:29:23.680 --> 0:29:25.920 so far away from living memory of what a real 0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:29.560 strike wave is, where people would go on strike in 0:29:29.600 --> 0:29:32.200 one factory and then the next factory, in the next factory, 0:29:32.240 --> 0:29:34.120 the next very it literally would be a wave of 0:29:34.200 --> 0:29:37.760 people um going on strike. And this was all the 0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:40.520 result of all the organization that people had, in the 0:29:40.560 --> 0:29:43.280 militant attitude that people had about like how they were 0:29:43.320 --> 0:29:47.160 going to be treated at work. It's worth mentioning that 0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:49.640 one of the so the National Labor Relations Act, which 0:29:49.680 --> 0:29:51.520 is past nineteenturty five, which is like that you know, 0:29:51.560 --> 0:29:54.400 this is the beginning labor piece, Like you know, it's okay, 0:29:54.400 --> 0:29:56.280 we'll give you the right re union, but you cannot 0:29:56.360 --> 0:29:58.760 do secondary strikes like that, Like this is this is 0:29:58.800 --> 0:30:01.560 explicitly banned in this if I'm remembering this right, is 0:30:01.560 --> 0:30:03.120 that there's a specific thing that says you can't do 0:30:03.160 --> 0:30:05.480 secondary strikes anymore. And you know, and this was this 0:30:05.560 --> 0:30:09.840 was you know, the basis of this piece was that 0:30:09.920 --> 0:30:12.440 like yeah, as you sort of said before, it was like, well, okay, 0:30:12.440 --> 0:30:15.000 so the state will put their guns down, but the 0:30:15.040 --> 0:30:18.360 workers also essentially have to put their guns down. And yeah, 0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:21.480 and this this starts this whole process of you know, 0:30:21.760 --> 0:30:26.080 on once once you lose like that kind of consciousness 0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:29.640 and once you lose the practical experience of doing this stuff, 0:30:29.680 --> 0:30:33.840 it kind of it fades and and over time, you know, yeah, 0:30:33.840 --> 0:30:36.160 the atrophies and and the unions get weaker and weaker 0:30:36.280 --> 0:30:38.880 because you know, like with without like you know what, 0:30:39.040 --> 0:30:41.480 once you once you've set aside, right and you've decided 0:30:41.520 --> 0:30:44.120 that you're gonna essentially you know, okay, we're gonna we're 0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:45.880 gonna follow the laws, we're gonna sit down, we're gonna 0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:48.880 do this, We're gonna like negotiate in good faith, we're 0:30:48.880 --> 0:30:51.160 going to have all of this sort of um, you know, 0:30:51.160 --> 0:30:53.640 we're we're gonna go through the National LA Relations Board. 0:30:55.240 --> 0:30:58.680 It's like, well, at that point, people like people, people's 0:30:58.680 --> 0:31:01.520 willingness to pick the weapons back up that they put 0:31:01.560 --> 0:31:07.280 down just sort of continues to diminish. Well, I think 0:31:07.320 --> 0:31:09.880 what happens is I mean, And so there was like 0:31:09.920 --> 0:31:12.400 a ten year period. So first there was like the 0:31:12.440 --> 0:31:15.440 first five you know, five ten years of c I 0:31:15.520 --> 0:31:18.120 oh was when we see like this really like intense 0:31:18.160 --> 0:31:24.560 militancy within these unions. And halfway through like you know, 0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:28.000 the passage of that first long in the nineteen thirties, UM, 0:31:28.040 --> 0:31:30.240 that's when we started to see the erosion. And we 0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:32.479 constantly see I think I think that people don't understand 0:31:32.520 --> 0:31:35.880 is that our bosses are always trying to assert their 0:31:35.920 --> 0:31:39.680 control over work. And we'll see that like UM bosses 0:31:39.720 --> 0:31:42.800 will do all kinds of contortions as long as they 0:31:42.800 --> 0:31:46.200 get to stay in charge and that they're unquestioned. And 0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:48.480 I don't think we understand quite how long the long 0:31:48.520 --> 0:31:51.760 game is for UM, for management, for our bosses, and 0:31:51.800 --> 0:31:54.520 for capital. And so you know, it starts with the 0:31:54.600 --> 0:31:58.240 National Labor Relations Act and then it goes through uh, um, 0:31:58.280 --> 0:32:01.040 it goes through World War Two. In the World War Two, 0:32:01.440 --> 0:32:04.440 that's when the c i O goes from you know, 0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:08.920 you know, millions of people to like tens of millions, 0:32:08.960 --> 0:32:11.120 and it becomes like a thing where like that's when 0:32:11.840 --> 0:32:16.760 you know, like Americans are in a union, right, um, 0:32:16.800 --> 0:32:23.680 because I mean to the extent that that to the 0:32:23.760 --> 0:32:27.520 extent that um, there were those compromises happened. It didn't 0:32:27.560 --> 0:32:31.240 just compromise. It wasn't just like a failure of like, oh, 0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:34.160 like we're just going to start capitulating. It's like there 0:32:34.160 --> 0:32:36.840 were interests inside the union. They're looking at like, well, 0:32:37.120 --> 0:32:38.920 this is a lot of resources and power that we 0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:42.240 have now. But wait until like it's you know of 0:32:42.280 --> 0:32:45.640 America paying union dudes. And there were people inside the 0:32:45.640 --> 0:32:51.520 Democratic Party who were willing to trade um, that labor 0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:55.320 piece for that you would start to see, you know, 0:32:55.360 --> 0:32:59.760 that's when politicians would show up to UM two union 0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:01.560 hall to talk and try and get you know, and 0:33:01.720 --> 0:33:04.640 that's when you know, the Democratic Party, it would be 0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:09.440 it wouldn't be unusual to hear a Democratic politician, UM 0:33:09.680 --> 0:33:14.320 say things about like labor that you would like that 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:17.200 no politician would say today. And now that doesn't mean 0:33:17.200 --> 0:33:18.960 that they were like on the side of the workers, 0:33:19.040 --> 0:33:24.160 but you know, you would have literally, um, President Eisenhower 0:33:24.240 --> 0:33:26.959 telling the president of U. S. Steel to get fucked 0:33:27.240 --> 0:33:29.560 over like a general, like you're you're trying to shut 0:33:29.600 --> 0:33:32.720 down like you know, this is like the the steel 0:33:32.760 --> 0:33:37.080 industry is a lifeblood of backbone of the American economy. Um, 0:33:37.080 --> 0:33:39.760 you know, and you're trying to shut this down, trying 0:33:39.760 --> 0:33:42.160 to kill the golden goose, like get back to work, 0:33:42.360 --> 0:33:45.280 let the pay these people what they're asking. Um. But 0:33:45.520 --> 0:33:48.080 you know, so you would see the people who kind 0:33:48.080 --> 0:33:52.600 of floated to the top of those uh unions trading 0:33:53.240 --> 0:33:58.160 their trading away their workers power and their workers well 0:33:58.200 --> 0:34:01.000 being for more and more month. First off, the would 0:34:01.000 --> 0:34:03.520 be more money, so you would you like, they would 0:34:03.520 --> 0:34:06.160 start getting raises that were really substantial, and it would 0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:09.719 boost up a union steel worker or a union auto 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:13.160 worker into what we consider like the comfortable middle class 0:34:13.440 --> 0:34:16.759 where people could like buy a like a fishing cabin 0:34:16.920 --> 0:34:19.480 or something up on a lake, send their kids to college, 0:34:19.840 --> 0:34:22.080 all these sorts of things that were just kind of 0:34:22.080 --> 0:34:25.320 like unobtainable sorts of things. If you were the same 0:34:25.440 --> 0:34:29.360 in the same industry twenty years earlier. Yeah, and um, 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:33.279 and that felt like wins, you know, two people. And 0:34:33.320 --> 0:34:36.920 also in the nineteen forties, after World War Two, they 0:34:36.920 --> 0:34:40.120 passed the Taff Hartley Act, which basically meant that they 0:34:40.920 --> 0:34:44.839 forced unions. Well they did, okay, they wrote into law 0:34:44.920 --> 0:34:47.319 that it was illegal to be a communist or an 0:34:47.400 --> 0:34:52.640 anarchist in uh in a union. And so they're literally 0:34:52.680 --> 0:34:56.439 still unions that still have language in their in their 0:34:56.600 --> 0:34:59.239 membership parts or they're like I declare, I'm I've never 0:34:59.280 --> 0:35:02.240 been a member of the Communist Party. I'm not an 0:35:02.440 --> 0:35:05.960 you know, an anarchist. Uh. I mean like I have 0:35:06.040 --> 0:35:07.600 friends who have pulled that out. Now it doesn't have 0:35:07.640 --> 0:35:11.239 any effect now, but that was they basically took all 0:35:11.239 --> 0:35:15.200 the people, you know, the people that uh that were 0:35:15.320 --> 0:35:16.960 you know, the people that you would have called to 0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:21.520 build the union twenty years later or before, we're getting 0:35:21.560 --> 0:35:25.080 thrown out of unions. And that didn't happen in every like. 0:35:25.200 --> 0:35:27.680 There were attempts to do that in all kinds of countries. 0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:31.239 They tried to do it in the UK, and the 0:35:31.320 --> 0:35:35.360 unions in the UK told basically told the government to 0:35:35.360 --> 0:35:38.719 go fund themselves, and they you know, it's like but 0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:43.840 because the leadership of the of the c I O 0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:48.520 industrial unions began to see themselves more in alignment with 0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:52.880 are ruling class and are you know, like the Democratic Party, 0:35:53.200 --> 0:35:55.319 they decided that they were big enough that they didn't 0:35:55.360 --> 0:36:01.160 have to have militants involved anymore. And that's when you know, uh, 0:36:01.400 --> 0:36:04.319 people were literally would get fired out of did either 0:36:04.560 --> 0:36:08.319 either militants and staff would get fired or uh, they 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:11.040 would get fired out of factories if you're like a 0:36:11.120 --> 0:36:14.919 ranking file worker. So um, and that's when we begin 0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:17.759 to see the rise of what we call business unionism. 0:36:17.760 --> 0:36:21.960 And that's where we would have union bureaucrats would and 0:36:23.480 --> 0:36:27.840 um would you know, would basically start making concessionary contracts. 0:36:27.880 --> 0:36:29.560 And this started you know back in you know, a 0:36:29.600 --> 0:36:31.080 lot of people are like, oh, you know, back in 0:36:31.120 --> 0:36:34.920 the fifties, unions are really powerful and they were powerful 0:36:34.960 --> 0:36:38.239 to get you know, like raises, but those raises came 0:36:38.280 --> 0:36:41.080 at the expense of control over the work process, came 0:36:41.160 --> 0:36:44.799 at the expense of the speed up um and as 0:36:44.880 --> 0:36:48.480 unions like because the rank and file workers, like you're saying, 0:36:48.480 --> 0:36:50.799 you know, ranking file workers, and they see their things 0:36:50.880 --> 0:36:53.040 there these tools getting put down and they were more 0:36:53.080 --> 0:36:55.719 reluctant to pick them up first off, is because of 0:36:55.719 --> 0:36:59.520 the amount of money that they're getting paid. And but 0:36:59.680 --> 0:37:02.879 they pushed back, they were like this is I mean, like, 0:37:03.360 --> 0:37:05.839 there's a really great book called The Next Shift UM 0:37:05.920 --> 0:37:11.120 by Gabriel win At. It's all about the shift from steel, 0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:14.319 the steel industry as like the center of the U. 0:37:14.400 --> 0:37:20.600 S economy to healthcare UM, and how unions basically started 0:37:20.640 --> 0:37:24.359 to erode away there like throw it, like hand over 0:37:24.480 --> 0:37:29.080 their power in exchange for money. And then when they 0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:32.799 were told like there was UM and attempts to get 0:37:33.719 --> 0:37:38.839 socialized medicine and the under the Truman administration, and when 0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:43.719 they were basically uh, they they hit a speed bump 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:47.520 in there and it got shot down. They decided that 0:37:47.560 --> 0:37:52.000 instead of trying to win those uh those broad social 0:37:52.000 --> 0:37:54.839 reforms for everybody, they're like, well, we can use our 0:37:55.160 --> 0:37:59.520 our power to strike to get basically construct a private 0:37:59.520 --> 0:38:02.680 welfare date for our workers. And so that's when you 0:38:02.719 --> 0:38:06.600 begin to see UM things like uh, the they call 0:38:06.719 --> 0:38:10.280 them like the gold plated insurance plans for certain types 0:38:10.320 --> 0:38:15.239 of unionized workers, and those would kind of UM and 0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:17.160 those are kind of used as like a private welfare 0:38:17.200 --> 0:38:20.160 state for all those workers. And it was built with 0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:26.000 the assumption you're gonna have low cost workers basically doing 0:38:26.040 --> 0:38:30.000 all this care work UM, and oftentimes it would be 0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:35.239 women of color and UM. And through that you start 0:38:35.280 --> 0:38:40.120 to see this real sharp client from the sixties in 0:38:40.400 --> 0:38:46.760 like UH in union UM, militancy UM. And that's when factory, 0:38:47.040 --> 0:38:51.640 when capital starts moving factories out of city centers where 0:38:51.680 --> 0:38:54.920 it's very easy to organize a factory when everyone lives 0:38:54.920 --> 0:38:57.680 within walking distance the factory, and when they're done with 0:38:57.719 --> 0:39:00.359 their shift at the factory, they're all at the bar 0:39:00.480 --> 0:39:03.880 outside the outside the factory gates, and you can just 0:39:03.960 --> 0:39:05.359 like if you want to have a union meeting, if 0:39:05.360 --> 0:39:08.680 you want organized even a wildcat strike, all you have 0:39:08.719 --> 0:39:10.279 to do is show up at the right bar and 0:39:10.320 --> 0:39:14.959 that's where everyone is after they're done with their shift. UM. 0:39:15.000 --> 0:39:19.719 They started moving and dispersing the industrial capacity of the 0:39:19.800 --> 0:39:24.399 United of you know, the the US urban core out 0:39:24.440 --> 0:39:28.240 into suburbs. So that's now where you'll drive through rural 0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:31.440 Indiana and you'll pass like five factories and they're surrounded 0:39:31.440 --> 0:39:33.759 by nothing but corn fields. It's because it's a lot 0:39:33.800 --> 0:39:38.080 harder to organize auto workers when they all live thirty 0:39:38.120 --> 0:39:39.920 minute drive from each other, and none of them hang 0:39:39.960 --> 0:39:43.600 out at the same bar anymore. Uh, And then you 0:39:43.640 --> 0:39:48.279 start to see UM and all through that time, the 0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:53.400 commitments to anti racism are eroded. So you'll see UM 0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:56.799 jobs get start to get segregated out inside it's like 0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:59.799 steel mills and things like that. But then, you know, 0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:03.120 is also the rise of rank and file movements to 0:40:03.280 --> 0:40:06.960 push back. So UM, all the while we're talking about this, 0:40:07.160 --> 0:40:10.440 there's always workers who remember what these things were like 0:40:10.760 --> 0:40:13.319 and why, and the power that they used to have, 0:40:14.239 --> 0:40:16.120 and they would do the best that they could get 0:40:16.200 --> 0:40:20.839 organized and so UM. There's a really good UM documentary 0:40:20.840 --> 0:40:23.000 you can find a YouTube called Finally Got the News. 0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:27.600 It's about the Dodge Revolutionary Union movement in Detroit, which 0:40:27.680 --> 0:40:34.080 was a rank and file reform movement organized by UM 0:40:34.200 --> 0:40:37.280 by black auto workers. They got like a fair amount 0:40:37.280 --> 0:40:40.720 of support from white auto workers because they're basically there's 0:40:41.000 --> 0:40:45.000 you know, interviews with U a W bureaucrats and they're 0:40:45.040 --> 0:40:47.719 just like, you know, we're getting people these raises. Why 0:40:47.760 --> 0:40:49.920 are they upset that they're like getting named in the 0:40:49.960 --> 0:40:53.239 factory right, or why are they getting upset that you know, 0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:56.200 you know, black workers are constantly getting put into the 0:40:56.200 --> 0:40:58.800 shittiest jobs or the first to get laid off, that 0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:01.160 sort of thing. And that's a it's a really I 0:41:01.400 --> 0:41:03.920 suggest anyone has time. And that came out of like 0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:07.120 the I think that was immediately after the was getting 0:41:07.200 --> 0:41:10.920 organized after the assassination Martin Luther King and all the 0:41:11.040 --> 0:41:13.840 riots that were happening in the h in the sixties 0:41:14.040 --> 0:41:19.080 had like that late sixties period. Um, in the seventies, 0:41:19.640 --> 0:41:23.000 there was a teamster, the teamster rank and file rebellion. 0:41:23.600 --> 0:41:28.960 My grandpa was a teamster trucker. My grandma was a teamster. 0:41:29.239 --> 0:41:34.239 She was like a punch card operator. But yeah, sorry, yeah, yeah, no, 0:41:34.320 --> 0:41:36.680 I mean like teams, these unions got so big and 0:41:36.719 --> 0:41:39.160 they have that's how you end up with like there's 0:41:39.239 --> 0:41:42.319 U a W teaching assistance now, right, Um, Like how 0:41:42.320 --> 0:41:45.600 do you end up with these huge like uh unions? 0:41:45.800 --> 0:41:49.240 And during teams are rebellion And my grandpa would tell 0:41:49.280 --> 0:41:51.200 these stories like we're going on there would be a 0:41:51.239 --> 0:41:53.880 wildcat strike and they call it out over the CB radios. 0:41:54.040 --> 0:41:57.160 And the way they would enforce the picket line wasn't 0:41:57.200 --> 0:41:58.960 just like oh, we're gonna like standing in the road 0:41:59.040 --> 0:42:02.720 or something. They would hang coke bottles full of rocks 0:42:02.719 --> 0:42:05.880 over the overpasses, just high enough up to like that 0:42:06.040 --> 0:42:08.040 cars wo pass underneath them, but if you hit one 0:42:08.080 --> 0:42:12.440 and you're in a truck, it's funk up your day. Um. 0:42:12.520 --> 0:42:15.799 And that was like a really um like a really 0:42:15.880 --> 0:42:18.760 kind of like powerful pushback by rank and file workers 0:42:18.800 --> 0:42:22.080 against what they saw was the erosion of their power. 0:42:22.320 --> 0:42:26.520 Because I think that I think there's this sometimes amongst 0:42:26.560 --> 0:42:29.160 people who consider themselves to be left or whatever, there's 0:42:29.200 --> 0:42:31.560 like this kind of doom and gloom like, oh, it's 0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:35.279 only like we're only losing, right. But and there's been 0:42:35.320 --> 0:42:38.120 a lot of as the seventies happened, and capital is 0:42:38.200 --> 0:42:40.080 kind of reconfiguring itself in the middle of all the 0:42:40.120 --> 0:42:44.239 economic upheaval inflation. Um, Basically, they got to the point 0:42:44.239 --> 0:42:47.359 where we can't maintain labor peace and maintain profits, right, 0:42:47.680 --> 0:42:51.000 so they could maintain labor piece and have something more 0:42:51.040 --> 0:42:54.680 like a socialist system, or they can maintain control over 0:42:54.719 --> 0:42:57.440 the work process and just do everything in their power 0:42:57.480 --> 0:43:00.040 to destroy the power of workers. And they decide to 0:43:00.080 --> 0:43:03.839 do that. Um. So I think we were coming out 0:43:03.880 --> 0:43:08.239 of this kind of era where you know, if you 0:43:08.280 --> 0:43:12.600 were in a union and working at a factory. Um, 0:43:12.680 --> 0:43:14.799 there was a real threat that they're like, well, we're 0:43:14.800 --> 0:43:18.200 just gonna shut this factory down, and you know, naft 0:43:18.239 --> 0:43:20.440 to get signed. Well, first it was the pet Go 0:43:20.600 --> 0:43:26.960 strike with Reagan. Reagan gets elected and air air traffic 0:43:27.000 --> 0:43:31.440 controllers decided they're going to go on strike and um, 0:43:32.719 --> 0:43:36.040 and they and Reagan decided he was going to break it, 0:43:36.680 --> 0:43:40.920 and they brought in they basically there was this bigg recession. 0:43:41.000 --> 0:43:43.640 It was like this huge mess where people were really 0:43:43.680 --> 0:43:47.440 desperate for work and um, you know, they said, we're 0:43:47.440 --> 0:43:50.240 going to hire anyone to be an air traffic controller 0:43:50.640 --> 0:43:52.200 and we're gonna break the strike. And that was the 0:43:52.239 --> 0:43:56.279 first real the first like that the beginning of the 0:43:56.480 --> 0:43:59.560 end of that final, like that big moment era of 0:43:59.600 --> 0:44:03.200 industry real unionism in the United States. And we went 0:44:03.239 --> 0:44:06.480 from a place where you know, U a W had millions, 0:44:06.760 --> 0:44:09.560 the United Auto Workers had millions and millions of workers 0:44:09.560 --> 0:44:11.160 and if you drove a car or a truck in 0:44:11.200 --> 0:44:15.400 his main America is made by union worker, to this 0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:19.200 point where now the AW is around fifty people. I 0:44:19.280 --> 0:44:22.399 was shocked when I heard that, literally like two weeks ago. Um, 0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:23.840 you know, we just have the big U, a W 0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:28.000 strike at John Deer, UM. And there's been and you know, 0:44:28.239 --> 0:44:31.480 all through this while this is going on, UM, there's 0:44:31.560 --> 0:44:35.359 various union corruption scandals. And that's again the cause of 0:44:35.440 --> 0:44:37.360 like when you kick out all the people who have 0:44:37.440 --> 0:44:41.720 an ideological commitment to improving the lives of working people 0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:44.359 and building the power of working people out of this 0:44:44.480 --> 0:44:48.040 organization that's only existence is to like build the power 0:44:48.120 --> 0:44:53.080 of working people. UM, then you then you end up 0:44:53.080 --> 0:44:55.080 with people who are basically criminals. Like you end up 0:44:55.080 --> 0:44:59.239 like there would be Uh. I think Reagan scat like 0:44:59.320 --> 0:45:05.160 Ronald Reagan and was h was a union member, but 0:45:05.239 --> 0:45:07.480 he was like the union member for like a corrupt 0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:10.720 like there was like there was like a battle between 0:45:10.760 --> 0:45:13.400 like the c I O controlled union in like Hollywood 0:45:13.440 --> 0:45:17.040 and like the corrupt like moss mobbed up union and 0:45:17.080 --> 0:45:19.480 the mobbed up union, like that was the side if 0:45:19.600 --> 0:45:25.040 I'm that that was a side that Raagant picked and 0:45:25.160 --> 0:45:27.359 uh and yeah, so it's like you could kind of 0:45:28.360 --> 0:45:31.640 and there was a lot of like media where they 0:45:31.640 --> 0:45:34.279 would be like you know, the Waterfront in various like 0:45:34.400 --> 0:45:37.000 movies and things talking about union corruption. And I think 0:45:37.000 --> 0:45:39.480 the union corruption is real and it's a it's when 0:45:39.480 --> 0:45:42.000 it happens, it's a huge problem. It shouldn't like it's 0:45:42.960 --> 0:45:47.120 in other countries like in like in Germany, if they 0:45:47.160 --> 0:45:50.239 found out like a union union official like misappropriated like 0:45:50.760 --> 0:45:56.200 two thousand euros, it would be a nationwide scandal like UM. 0:45:56.239 --> 0:46:01.160 Also in uh In like European countries, you pay union 0:46:01.239 --> 0:46:05.600 dues on a voluntary basis. Right in the US legally, 0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:09.359 since we're a close shop system, like once you're at 0:46:09.360 --> 0:46:14.920 a union UH union workplace, your dues get taken, whether 0:46:15.000 --> 0:46:16.880 you know whether you're happy with the union or not. 0:46:18.080 --> 0:46:20.760 Now there are people will say that's really important because 0:46:21.200 --> 0:46:23.640 unions need every penny they can to fight where they have. 0:46:23.760 --> 0:46:27.440 But when unions have to fight for membership and make 0:46:27.480 --> 0:46:30.360 sure that their membership knows that they're getting like what 0:46:30.400 --> 0:46:33.520 they're paying for, you get a little bit more responsiveness. 0:46:34.120 --> 0:46:36.880 So I think that's another thing that especially people are 0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:39.239 thinking about unions and thinking about joining a union are 0:46:39.280 --> 0:46:42.200 creating getting any of the workplace. Just understand what a 0:46:42.360 --> 0:46:45.759 union is and how they work and where your money 0:46:45.840 --> 0:46:48.759 is going to, and that if you're unhappy with that, 0:46:49.520 --> 0:46:52.080 the best thing to do is to get involved with 0:46:52.080 --> 0:46:55.560 your union to try and like get connected with your 0:46:55.760 --> 0:46:59.280 coworkers who have similar complaints and change the union. Because 0:47:00.200 --> 0:47:02.279 there's a saying it's like any union is better than 0:47:02.320 --> 0:47:06.600 no union. That's not always true, but it generally is 0:47:08.920 --> 0:47:11.000 there there there's like a very small chance that like 0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:14.279 you're like living in nineteen nine China and like your 0:47:14.360 --> 0:47:17.560 union is like is controlled by like a commodation of 0:47:17.600 --> 0:47:21.160 the K and T and like literally the Chinese heroine trade. 0:47:22.080 --> 0:47:27.920 But you know that that like, yeah, that like doesn't 0:47:29.360 --> 0:47:32.799 there there there are things where you'll have like there, 0:47:32.920 --> 0:47:34.759 my dad worked at a factory and there was it 0:47:34.800 --> 0:47:37.960 was a teamster organized factory, and like some of the 0:47:38.040 --> 0:47:40.520 stewards for bullies and literally like there were some people 0:47:40.520 --> 0:47:43.160 who were dealing drugs out of it, and they gave 0:47:43.760 --> 0:47:50.120 the the workers like try to bring in another union, 0:47:50.320 --> 0:47:54.560 and the and the management decided to offer to also 0:47:54.840 --> 0:47:57.600 try and desertify decertify the union at the same time, 0:47:58.480 --> 0:48:02.200 and the workers voted to desert. And the thing is 0:48:02.200 --> 0:48:06.480 is that now that factory shut down and gone um 0:48:06.560 --> 0:48:08.000 and I guess like the thing is is that you 0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:12.319 have to It's far better for workers to assert their 0:48:12.440 --> 0:48:15.000 rights within their union where they have some modicum of 0:48:15.000 --> 0:48:17.840 democratic control over what's going on than it is to 0:48:17.920 --> 0:48:21.280 just throw up your hands and like there's and do nothing. 0:48:21.320 --> 0:48:24.680 Because if you do nothing, the boss is always doing something. Yeah, 0:48:24.920 --> 0:48:27.920 Like that's the thing is, like management is always organizing. 0:48:27.920 --> 0:48:31.879 They're always coming up with ways to like to undermine 0:48:32.960 --> 0:48:36.320 the control of workers at work, to pick people against 0:48:36.320 --> 0:48:41.319 each other. Um, we can get into it later, but like, uh, 0:48:41.440 --> 0:48:44.480 they want, they'll use racism and those sorts of things 0:48:44.520 --> 0:48:48.120 to dole out favors or curry favoritism and like you know, 0:48:48.120 --> 0:48:51.239 pit people against each other. So I think that it's 0:48:51.239 --> 0:48:54.960 important to just say that, like the union is going 0:48:55.000 --> 0:48:58.560 to be your only effective way to push back, well, 0:48:58.600 --> 0:49:01.319 the union or collective action, because I guess I also 0:49:01.360 --> 0:49:03.680 want to say that there are times when organizing union 0:49:03.800 --> 0:49:06.440 isn't the best solution to solving your problem at work. Ultimately, 0:49:06.480 --> 0:49:09.040 this is all about how do you solve problems at work? Right? 0:49:09.640 --> 0:49:12.640 And they're sometimes when you can do collective action that 0:49:12.800 --> 0:49:17.480 is protected as you know as labor organizing, but it's 0:49:17.480 --> 0:49:21.320 not done within a union. And so and because America 0:49:21.440 --> 0:49:23.440 is a really best of place and you have right 0:49:23.480 --> 0:49:25.800 to work states and places where like being in a 0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:30.759 union is like literally illegal. Um sometimes putting the time, 0:49:30.800 --> 0:49:33.560 you're like you can't get into a union, and therefore 0:49:33.560 --> 0:49:36.920 you have to come up with other solutions, or sometimes 0:49:36.960 --> 0:49:40.120 because of the nature of a workplace, like getting a 0:49:40.280 --> 0:49:45.160 union is like it's very hard or like basically impossible. 0:49:45.680 --> 0:49:47.919 That doesn't mean that you can't organize, And I think 0:49:47.920 --> 0:49:49.680 that that's the thing that everyone needs to understand. I 0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:52.920 think there's a lot of like boosterism of unions amongst 0:49:52.960 --> 0:49:56.200 younger workers because people just don't understand how they work 0:49:56.320 --> 0:49:59.840 or they haven't experienced in themselves. And I think that 0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:01.759 the main thing is is that you've got to be 0:50:03.000 --> 0:50:06.319 very careful with your time and understanding. Like building a 0:50:06.440 --> 0:50:09.520 union can take like ten years from the beginning of 0:50:09.600 --> 0:50:14.120 we're upset to now we have a collective bargaining agreement, 0:50:14.920 --> 0:50:18.120 or now we have a collective bargaining agreement. It could 0:50:18.120 --> 0:50:19.920 be another five or ten years before you actually get 0:50:19.920 --> 0:50:21.800 to the point where you're organized enough to go on strike. 0:50:22.200 --> 0:50:28.440 And people oftentimes think that that's like they look back 0:50:28.480 --> 0:50:30.439 at the history of things and they're like, oh, it's 0:50:30.440 --> 0:50:34.440 so easy. But back then people were taking all they mean, 0:50:34.480 --> 0:50:36.719 they it took them years to build the the US 0:50:36.800 --> 0:50:38.800 labor movement into what it was at its peak. It 0:50:38.880 --> 0:50:42.160 took decades, right, and I think that we are kind 0:50:42.200 --> 0:50:44.680 of used to this instant gratification kind of stuff. We 0:50:44.760 --> 0:50:47.360 have to understand it. It's like, if you're going to 0:50:47.400 --> 0:50:51.439 be in a workplace where you're there for enough time 0:50:51.480 --> 0:50:54.960 to build the trust and relationships and understanding of how 0:50:54.960 --> 0:50:59.000 the work workplace works and keep your job and be 0:50:59.120 --> 0:51:01.480 someone that people don't look at, is like a shirk 0:51:01.600 --> 0:51:04.240 or whatever. Not that I don't think that people should 0:51:04.480 --> 0:51:06.879 you know, people should work as hard as they can 0:51:07.000 --> 0:51:12.440 and not any more harder than that. But whatever. Um. 0:51:12.840 --> 0:51:15.239 But I think that you know, I'm anti work, but 0:51:15.280 --> 0:51:17.239 you know that's the whole other thing. Unions are the 0:51:17.280 --> 0:51:18.799 best way to limit the amount of work that you 0:51:18.840 --> 0:51:22.680 have to do. Um, if you're gonna if you're going 0:51:22.719 --> 0:51:26.000 to uh, you know, work as a wage labor um. 0:51:26.040 --> 0:51:28.400 But I'll just say that, it's like I think that 0:51:28.480 --> 0:51:33.080 people don't that. It's difficult sometimes to understand how much 0:51:33.160 --> 0:51:35.800 work goes into getting to the point of getting a union, 0:51:37.400 --> 0:51:39.879 but it's always worth putting the time in to get there. 0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:44.120 And you may not win the first try, but if 0:51:44.160 --> 0:51:47.319 you are if if the conditions are right and things like, 0:51:47.440 --> 0:51:49.400 you know, we make our history, but not in conditions 0:51:49.400 --> 0:51:54.080 of our choosing. Sometimes things don't work out, but not 0:51:54.160 --> 0:51:58.319 doing it is I think, a it's detrimental to you 0:51:58.400 --> 0:52:01.000 and your co workers. And even times like I've talked 0:52:01.040 --> 0:52:04.239 with people who have been involved in campaigns where they 0:52:04.280 --> 0:52:08.280 got fired but then all of a sudden conditions approved afterwards, 0:52:08.719 --> 0:52:10.400 and they look at that as like, oh, ship, we 0:52:10.400 --> 0:52:13.480 didn't get our union, but everyone got raises and they 0:52:13.560 --> 0:52:15.920 change some things at work, and that's actually a victory. 0:52:16.239 --> 0:52:19.399 So you know, I think that I think of each 0:52:19.440 --> 0:52:23.880 other as like collective building collective power, and the amount 0:52:23.880 --> 0:52:27.160 of time it takes to do that is daunting, but 0:52:27.239 --> 0:52:28.520 I think it's the sort of thing that we need 0:52:28.560 --> 0:52:32.600 to do if we're serious about changing how we can 0:52:33.480 --> 0:52:37.000 actually like how our lives work and how much power 0:52:37.080 --> 0:52:39.680 we have outside of work, because unions are also places 0:52:39.719 --> 0:52:43.000 where we do things that affect outside of our work 0:52:43.000 --> 0:53:06.840 as well. Um, George flayd uprising. You know, uh in 0:53:06.960 --> 0:53:10.960 Minneapolis there were nurses union nurses who walked out the 0:53:11.000 --> 0:53:16.080 door um to support uh, you know, people who were 0:53:16.640 --> 0:53:21.920 uh basically having an insurrection against like you know, police violence. 0:53:21.960 --> 0:53:28.200 In in Minneapolis when the when COVID pandemic hit off, 0:53:29.160 --> 0:53:33.160 year of everything going off, nurses nurses were going out 0:53:33.200 --> 0:53:36.880 and confronting UH. Union nurses were going out and confronting 0:53:36.920 --> 0:53:39.719 anti mass protesters. Like I was literally getting screamed at 0:53:39.760 --> 0:53:43.239 by like some Looney Tunes doctor holding a banner that 0:53:43.239 --> 0:53:46.160 said nurses are dying. Go home with like twenty other 0:53:46.239 --> 0:53:48.920 union nurses And we were the only people out there 0:53:48.920 --> 0:53:53.120 who are like together, who are you know, immediately impacted 0:53:53.120 --> 0:53:56.200 by this stuff and UM, And I think it made 0:53:56.200 --> 0:53:58.480 a difference, Like I think it's important, and so I 0:53:58.520 --> 0:54:02.160 think that UM some idea called social unionism. So if 0:54:02.200 --> 0:54:05.200 you get to the point where building a union and 0:54:05.239 --> 0:54:07.359 you're making progress, and you get to that point where 0:54:07.360 --> 0:54:10.600 you have a union, always be advocating for to the 0:54:10.640 --> 0:54:12.920 extent that you can that your union is engaged in 0:54:12.960 --> 0:54:17.360 the kind of UM, like connecting with your community around 0:54:17.360 --> 0:54:22.400 your workplace, figuring out the things that are impacting people's 0:54:22.400 --> 0:54:24.640 lives outside of unions. Because I think that's another thing 0:54:24.719 --> 0:54:28.719 that UM. For a long time, unions just ignored or 0:54:28.760 --> 0:54:31.400 let atrophy because they didn't think it was their problem anymore. 0:54:31.640 --> 0:54:35.320 Was you know, mutual aid helped build the labor movement. 0:54:36.320 --> 0:54:39.719 You know, workers would get would literally like in West 0:54:39.800 --> 0:54:45.880 Virginia and matuan Uh they had uh company police throwing 0:54:45.920 --> 0:54:50.720 people out of their apartments who are on strike, and 0:54:50.800 --> 0:54:53.080 the there were you know, all of a sudden, two 0:54:53.120 --> 0:54:56.200 thousand of your fellow workers showing up and throwing the 0:54:56.200 --> 0:54:59.319 police out of town and putting people's uh, you know, 0:54:59.400 --> 0:55:02.880 belonging to in their house or you know. And I 0:55:03.000 --> 0:55:05.279 believe we're getting back to that point where you know, 0:55:05.440 --> 0:55:09.480 teachers went on striking West Virginia and the union and 0:55:09.520 --> 0:55:12.960 the teachers did everything they could to support their students 0:55:13.080 --> 0:55:16.200 while they were out, because like, I think there's this 0:55:16.280 --> 0:55:22.360 idea that a lot of union workers at this point 0:55:22.880 --> 0:55:26.560 are you know, everyone is like, you know, the American 0:55:26.600 --> 0:55:30.239 workforce is so desperate and so and they've just been 0:55:30.239 --> 0:55:33.600 pushed around so much that you know, there was this 0:55:33.680 --> 0:55:38.319 idea for a time like in Wisconsin, what was or 0:55:38.360 --> 0:55:42.560 what was the Scott Walker consint Uprising just eleven, wasn't it? 0:55:42.640 --> 0:55:45.640 I think it was like right around occupy It wasn't 0:55:45.640 --> 0:55:48.279 around there, And like there was this idea that's like, 0:55:48.600 --> 0:55:50.759 oh you're a nurse, Oh you're a teacher, Like you 0:55:50.800 --> 0:55:53.200 should just be happy that your job has some kind 0:55:53.239 --> 0:55:55.759 of meaning to it, right, And it was a lot 0:55:55.800 --> 0:56:01.280 of like weird discourse around in the media of about 0:56:01.360 --> 0:56:04.920 like how dare these people? I think that they deserve anything? 0:56:05.719 --> 0:56:08.960 And the thing is is that how can you, like, 0:56:09.120 --> 0:56:11.400 as a nurse, how can I take care of my 0:56:11.480 --> 0:56:18.200 patients safely when I'm constantly having, um like, more and 0:56:18.239 --> 0:56:21.200 more work put on me, right, and that that immediately 0:56:21.239 --> 0:56:23.160 affects the people that I'm taken care of. So that 0:56:23.239 --> 0:56:26.319 when when we went on strike in twenty nineteen, it 0:56:26.360 --> 0:56:31.640 was around our safe staffing. UM and if I've seen 0:56:32.080 --> 0:56:36.879 management make decisions about staffing that kill people, and I've 0:56:36.920 --> 0:56:40.000 seen management make decisions that lead to my coworkers getting injured. 0:56:40.440 --> 0:56:43.800 Um I management made decisions that led to me getting 0:56:44.719 --> 0:56:48.920 COVID and messed me up for a year. And so 0:56:49.120 --> 0:56:52.439 when people in these kind of care worker roles, which 0:56:52.440 --> 0:56:54.680 I think has become a more prominent part of the U. 0:56:54.719 --> 0:56:58.279 S economy as people are getting older and they need 0:56:58.320 --> 0:57:02.480 more like care work, home care workers, nursing home workers, 0:57:02.960 --> 0:57:07.759 hospital workers. UM. Parents don't can't rely on family the 0:57:07.760 --> 0:57:09.960 way they used to to help take care kids. School 0:57:10.200 --> 0:57:15.000 has become like this really important, like uh institution for 0:57:15.920 --> 0:57:20.400 you know, working class survival. Um that you can't do 0:57:20.440 --> 0:57:23.000 those jobs as a worker if you don't have the resources. 0:57:23.040 --> 0:57:26.840 So like our our children were at the Chicago public 0:57:26.880 --> 0:57:31.240 schools and there that you know, the Chicago Teachers Union, 0:57:31.760 --> 0:57:34.880 which was taken over by the rank and file UM, 0:57:34.920 --> 0:57:38.520 I think in two thousand five or six by you know, 0:57:38.680 --> 0:57:42.680 a group of black women led by Karen Lewis. They 0:57:42.720 --> 0:57:45.240 set up a group called like a rank and file 0:57:45.320 --> 0:57:51.880 caucus called the Caucus of Rank and File Educators or 0:57:52.040 --> 0:57:55.680 Radical Educators. Cores might be messing up, but it's called CORE. 0:57:56.760 --> 0:58:01.120 They went out on strike in and and as a 0:58:01.400 --> 0:58:03.520 you know, as just this was before my kids were 0:58:03.560 --> 0:58:05.040 old not to be in those schools. I was out 0:58:05.080 --> 0:58:08.400 there still taking them coffee donuts, right because I knew 0:58:08.400 --> 0:58:12.040 that they're in there. Because things stuck. By the time 0:58:12.080 --> 0:58:14.560 my kids were old enough in nineteen for it to 0:58:14.600 --> 0:58:16.760 be a big thing, and the teachers when I'm striking 0:58:16.760 --> 0:58:20.360 in Chicago, it had gotten so it's so bad that 0:58:20.480 --> 0:58:26.360 Chicago teachers like Chicago Public schools have the the lowest 0:58:26.440 --> 0:58:32.040 number of staff two students of any school system in Illinois. 0:58:32.080 --> 0:58:36.480 It's not even like half right and um. And it's 0:58:36.480 --> 0:58:40.200 funny because the state had been constantly trying to erode 0:58:40.200 --> 0:58:44.080 the power of the union. They're making Chicago teachers like 0:58:44.200 --> 0:58:46.800 pay their for their own retirement basically in a way 0:58:46.840 --> 0:58:50.720 that no other like workers have to. Um. They were 0:58:51.200 --> 0:58:53.480 making it so that Chicago teachers could only go on 0:58:53.520 --> 0:58:59.040 strike over of the teachers voted to go on strike. 0:59:00.120 --> 0:59:03.120 UM so when so what that does is there's kind 0:59:03.120 --> 0:59:06.240 of like a a little bit of a flip where oh, 0:59:06.280 --> 0:59:10.160 we have to make of you know, people agree to 0:59:10.200 --> 0:59:12.560 go on strike. Well, let's organize so much that we 0:59:12.600 --> 0:59:15.800 get people to agree to go on strike, and then 0:59:16.000 --> 0:59:18.120 how powerful is our strikes? Our strikes is going to be. 0:59:18.160 --> 0:59:21.560 We're literally like one of the things I do as 0:59:21.560 --> 0:59:24.600 a steward is I connect with all the different unions 0:59:24.760 --> 0:59:28.440 and at the University Chicago where I work, through a 0:59:28.520 --> 0:59:32.280 labor council, we were going, as you know, university workers 0:59:32.320 --> 0:59:35.480 to all the picket lines of the public schools around 0:59:35.480 --> 0:59:38.800 our neighborhood and we're bringing out coffee, bringing out donuts, 0:59:38.880 --> 0:59:40.680 talking to people. Hey, I'm a nurse. We were on 0:59:40.760 --> 0:59:43.240 strike like six or like two or three months ago. 0:59:43.760 --> 0:59:46.760 What do you all need connecting with people. And then 0:59:47.520 --> 0:59:51.120 and then like at one point when the teachers were like, 0:59:51.520 --> 0:59:53.919 we're not getting what we want and this is LORI 0:59:54.120 --> 1:00:01.120 lightfoot is trash there, uh, we helped organized this mass 1:00:01.240 --> 1:00:05.919 march where multiple marches of teachers and school workers and 1:00:06.280 --> 1:00:09.360 we're all out in the streets dodging cop cars until 1:00:09.400 --> 1:00:12.240 we have this big convergence. And it was really beautiful, 1:00:12.320 --> 1:00:15.240 Like we had like multiple people with like multiple banners 1:00:15.240 --> 1:00:17.720 and different columns, each one saying we will win, going 1:00:17.760 --> 1:00:21.200 through the streets of our neighborhood UM and like messing 1:00:21.320 --> 1:00:26.080 up like the commercial traffic area in uh in our 1:00:26.160 --> 1:00:29.440 very bougie neighborhood. UM. But that was happening all over 1:00:29.480 --> 1:00:31.680 the city and it's just like when you see that happen, 1:00:32.480 --> 1:00:35.760 it's because we're literally in the support of the community 1:00:35.840 --> 1:00:38.920 for those strikes was so overwhelming because people knew that. 1:00:38.920 --> 1:00:42.800 It's like these people, aren't it. I mean, like, first off, 1:00:42.840 --> 1:00:46.520 it's a hard job. There's no reason why anyone doing 1:00:46.520 --> 1:00:50.400 that job shouldn't have like a materially comfortable life. That's 1:00:50.440 --> 1:00:52.080 how stressful it is and how much work they do. 1:00:53.400 --> 1:00:55.520 And I really like, I really need to emphasize this 1:00:55.600 --> 1:00:57.840 enough people. There's this whole thing is like, oh, teachers 1:00:57.840 --> 1:01:01.880 don't work over the summer, like, oh, but no, like 1:01:02.040 --> 1:01:04.640 their job sucks. They have to they have to deal 1:01:04.680 --> 1:01:06.200 with these kids all day. And the other thing is like, 1:01:06.440 --> 1:01:07.680 you know, the part of it that you don't see 1:01:07.720 --> 1:01:08.960 is they have to do all the lesson plans. They 1:01:08.960 --> 1:01:10.200 have to great all the stuff, have to do all 1:01:10.200 --> 1:01:12.000 this stuff like after the school day end, they have 1:01:12.000 --> 1:01:14.120 to do all the suff honestibly, all the time. This 1:01:14.200 --> 1:01:19.680 job is awful. It is extremely hard, and like they don't. Yeah, 1:01:19.720 --> 1:01:24.400 the conditions are extremely bad. I'll never forget when I'll 1:01:24.480 --> 1:01:26.760 never forget when I ran into my seventh grade science 1:01:26.800 --> 1:01:29.280 teacher on the summer she was waiting tables at a 1:01:29.360 --> 1:01:32.919 local restaurant, you know, I mean, And so I think 1:01:32.960 --> 1:01:37.160 that there's this assumption that like that, especially care workers 1:01:37.960 --> 1:01:39.880 get some sort of you can't you know, you can't 1:01:39.880 --> 1:01:42.960 cash in fulfillment right or prestige or whatever that doesn't 1:01:42.960 --> 1:01:45.840 pay the rent, that doesn't put you know, groceries on 1:01:45.880 --> 1:01:50.120 your table um that sort of thing. And so you know, 1:01:50.200 --> 1:01:52.720 I think we're beginning to see this thing resurgence. And 1:01:52.800 --> 1:01:57.160 it started with teachers and I know, for and teachers 1:01:57.320 --> 1:02:00.520 and nurses have been out fighting like hell for the 1:02:00.560 --> 1:02:04.760 past like five years, and it's beginning to kind of 1:02:04.800 --> 1:02:09.120 like spark other kinds of organizing outside of outside of 1:02:09.600 --> 1:02:11.880 the care work areas, and a lot of this stuff 1:02:11.920 --> 1:02:14.080 was It's funny how it was kind of like predicted 1:02:14.120 --> 1:02:18.520 by occupy and like revolt of the carrying classes. Someone 1:02:18.560 --> 1:02:20.160 who wrote a really cool book that just came out, 1:02:20.240 --> 1:02:22.480 David Graeber, who was talking about, like, why is it 1:02:22.560 --> 1:02:25.520 that we're seeing all these people who are out in 1:02:25.640 --> 1:02:29.480 the streets like during occupy, who are like social workers 1:02:29.520 --> 1:02:32.920 and nurses and teachers and all this stuff there There's 1:02:33.000 --> 1:02:36.520 something going on here, and I think that so you'll 1:02:36.520 --> 1:02:41.880 see places where organizing conditions are easier because the pressure 1:02:42.080 --> 1:02:45.400 on especially care workers right now is immense in a 1:02:45.440 --> 1:02:49.439 way that it isn't as immense other places. But look 1:02:49.480 --> 1:02:52.360 at for those like when you're thinking about unions and 1:02:52.480 --> 1:02:55.440 whether to do build a union at your workplace or 1:02:55.480 --> 1:02:59.000 do some sort of collective organizing your workplace, do you 1:02:59.040 --> 1:03:03.120 have the dynamics where you guys are can the boss 1:03:03.160 --> 1:03:08.200 shut down your, uh, your your workplace and move it 1:03:08.400 --> 1:03:12.360 like ten miles without completely destroying their like their business right, 1:03:12.960 --> 1:03:17.040 And so you know, we've seen strikes happen in grocery stores, 1:03:17.720 --> 1:03:24.360 um and uh Massachusetts there was a really like uh 1:03:24.400 --> 1:03:28.720 pretty well publicized grocery worker strike and apparently there was 1:03:29.000 --> 1:03:32.160 like internal documents got released to like shareholders about how 1:03:32.160 --> 1:03:33.600 that was like one of the most like it was 1:03:33.640 --> 1:03:35.360 like for a month in the winter or three weeks, 1:03:35.720 --> 1:03:40.480 and they said they lost like of customers refused across 1:03:40.480 --> 1:03:44.080 the picket line. I mean, and I think we're thinking 1:03:44.200 --> 1:03:47.280 it's like getting to the point where you can go 1:03:47.320 --> 1:03:49.120 on strike. It's a lot, it's a process, and it 1:03:49.200 --> 1:03:50.840 takes a lot of work, and I think that people 1:03:51.120 --> 1:03:55.040 underestimate what that looks like. Hence we see hashtag general 1:03:55.040 --> 1:04:00.240 strike things all the time. Um. But like when you 1:04:00.280 --> 1:04:02.160 get there, I think that we're at a point now 1:04:02.200 --> 1:04:04.480 where people have a lot more sympathy for workers, and 1:04:04.520 --> 1:04:06.760 workers have become more visible in the way that they 1:04:06.760 --> 1:04:11.439 weren't before. Like the essential workers over the past year 1:04:11.440 --> 1:04:13.960 and a half have been the only workers that sometimes 1:04:13.960 --> 1:04:17.120 people will see, right, So you'll see things also like 1:04:17.160 --> 1:04:22.160 you have you know, Amazonians United, which is a union 1:04:22.600 --> 1:04:25.160 that's organizing, but they're trying to organize something called a 1:04:25.200 --> 1:04:28.000 solidarity union. So they're not, you know, at least the 1:04:28.000 --> 1:04:29.840 ones here in Chicago, and I think some of them 1:04:29.880 --> 1:04:32.960 in New York. And this may be changing. Things are 1:04:32.960 --> 1:04:35.280 always shifting around. But for a long for a while, 1:04:35.520 --> 1:04:38.920 through like the pandemic, they were organizing on a like 1:04:39.040 --> 1:04:43.440 in contrast to the best sumer uh Amazon campaign. Sorry, 1:04:43.920 --> 1:04:49.240 there was a a business union tried to organize a 1:04:49.400 --> 1:04:54.640 union in Alabama, Investment Alabama at an Amazon warehouse, and 1:04:55.280 --> 1:04:58.200 there was a lot of like media attention to that. 1:04:58.520 --> 1:05:01.760 Democratic politicians, we're paying attention to it, you know, Joe 1:05:01.760 --> 1:05:04.520 Biden said, I support the right of workers to choose 1:05:04.640 --> 1:05:07.919 to have the choice. Stabby union some really milk toast 1:05:07.960 --> 1:05:12.360 bullshit and a lot of celebrities showing up. And what 1:05:12.560 --> 1:05:16.320 wasn't happening was you weren't seeing a lot of evidence 1:05:16.360 --> 1:05:19.800 that the workers themselves were very excited about the union. 1:05:20.560 --> 1:05:24.360 And it turned out that that campaign failed. Um, whereas 1:05:25.080 --> 1:05:28.240 workers at Amazonian's united up here, like in Chicago, and 1:05:28.280 --> 1:05:31.360 granted it's a very different organizing environment in Illinois than 1:05:31.400 --> 1:05:35.400 it is in Alabama. UM, they haven't been focusing on 1:05:35.440 --> 1:05:37.880 getting contract. They've been focusing on getting work changes like 1:05:37.920 --> 1:05:41.760 They're like, we want to have water, like we need 1:05:41.800 --> 1:05:45.080 water breaks, and so they would they have these stand 1:05:45.120 --> 1:05:47.480 up meetings at the beginning of every shift, and they 1:05:47.560 --> 1:05:51.000 had coordinated where you have you know, thirty of your 1:05:51.040 --> 1:05:53.640 co workers all say we're not starting until we get water. 1:05:54.760 --> 1:05:58.200 And then management panics because they're not used to that 1:05:58.280 --> 1:06:01.440 kind of demand. They're used to We're going to have 1:06:01.560 --> 1:06:04.400 a campaign. Then we can you know, mess with votes 1:06:04.400 --> 1:06:07.520 and that sort of thing and make people afraid. Collective 1:06:07.560 --> 1:06:12.760 action overcomes fear, right, So when you have collective action, 1:06:13.880 --> 1:06:18.640 even through a regular like a more regular conventional union campaign, 1:06:19.160 --> 1:06:23.919 those collective actions are what needs to successful unions. So like, um, so, 1:06:24.080 --> 1:06:26.479 you know, they'd say, we aren't starting the shift until 1:06:26.480 --> 1:06:28.360 we get water, and then all of a sudden a 1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:32.080 manager disappears and then comes back with palates full of water, right, 1:06:32.520 --> 1:06:33.919 and all of a sudden, people are like, I'm gonna 1:06:33.920 --> 1:06:36.320 have the drink water before I start, like all together, 1:06:36.400 --> 1:06:38.240 and then they go off and do their thing, and 1:06:38.280 --> 1:06:41.840 it's like, you know, things like that build the power 1:06:41.920 --> 1:06:44.800 of the union to the point where they shut down 1:06:45.280 --> 1:06:48.840 that warehouse. But then Amazonian United popped up in the 1:06:48.880 --> 1:06:53.360 three new warehouses that they step in Chicago. So it's 1:06:53.400 --> 1:06:56.240 like when you build that kind of collective power and 1:06:56.360 --> 1:06:59.919 people feel like this is how you get things, then 1:07:00.600 --> 1:07:03.760 it's hard to repress. Right. It's one thing we're like, 1:07:04.160 --> 1:07:07.600 we lost an election, why did we even bother? It's 1:07:07.640 --> 1:07:09.880 another thing where like no, we wont like all this, 1:07:10.000 --> 1:07:11.680 like this, that, and the other thing like we got 1:07:11.720 --> 1:07:14.000 you know, like our regular schedules fixed. We got like 1:07:14.080 --> 1:07:16.959 water on our shifts. We got this. You know, that's 1:07:16.960 --> 1:07:20.560 what gets people into the mindset that they can change things. 1:07:20.560 --> 1:07:21.840 And I think this is the thing that a lot 1:07:21.840 --> 1:07:24.560 of people don't get. It's it's like, the difficult part 1:07:24.680 --> 1:07:27.360 isn't getting people to agree that things are fucked up 1:07:27.360 --> 1:07:30.439 at your workplace. Most people understand that things are sucked 1:07:30.480 --> 1:07:33.760 up in their workplace. Difficult part isn't saying that, like, well, 1:07:33.760 --> 1:07:36.760 this is a solution, right. The difficult part is getting 1:07:36.760 --> 1:07:40.280 people to understand that collective action is the only way 1:07:40.280 --> 1:07:44.320 to solve the problems, right even within unionized workplaces. Getting 1:07:44.320 --> 1:07:46.960 your coworkers to understand that if we don't do this 1:07:47.000 --> 1:07:50.919 as a collective, we will fail. And so like when 1:07:51.720 --> 1:07:59.480 there was a like the first successful private hospital union 1:07:59.560 --> 1:08:06.760 drive North Carolina popped off early. UM. Throughout that campaign, 1:08:07.000 --> 1:08:12.200 they were constantly like demonstrations of collective power. We're gonna 1:08:12.240 --> 1:08:14.000 do a vigil. How many people are gonna show up 1:08:14.000 --> 1:08:16.040 to the visual We're gonna all walk around stickers saying 1:08:16.080 --> 1:08:20.800 like safe staffing saves lives or like you know, um, 1:08:21.280 --> 1:08:23.880 patients over profits. That sort of stuff and building that 1:08:23.960 --> 1:08:28.240 kind of collective power together is what gets you. UM, 1:08:28.280 --> 1:08:32.639 It's what gets you a successful Like that's what builds 1:08:32.680 --> 1:08:36.760 a union. Fundamentally, union is UM. There's the legal thing 1:08:36.800 --> 1:08:38.639 and then there's the real thing, and the real thing 1:08:38.840 --> 1:08:41.920 is only as powerful as people are willing to fight 1:08:42.000 --> 1:08:45.679 for and build that kind of collective power together. When 1:08:45.760 --> 1:08:47.360 nurses were on straight and I talked a lot about 1:08:47.439 --> 1:08:49.280 nurses because I know a lot about nurses, but like 1:08:49.400 --> 1:08:52.240 you know, or like you know in um in Iowa, 1:08:52.360 --> 1:08:56.160 when the John Deere strike happened, people were out on 1:08:56.160 --> 1:08:58.160 the picket lines and people were ready to get hit 1:08:58.200 --> 1:09:01.599 by cars to like stop scabs from coming like crossing 1:09:01.600 --> 1:09:03.800 the picket line. And if you're not willing to do 1:09:03.840 --> 1:09:05.320 that kind of stuff. And I'm not saying that you 1:09:05.320 --> 1:09:06.920 need to put your body on the line for things, 1:09:07.000 --> 1:09:09.960 but you do need to be willing to draw outside 1:09:09.960 --> 1:09:12.840 the lines. Right, there's the law and then there's what 1:09:12.880 --> 1:09:15.720 you can get people to do. And you will be 1:09:15.720 --> 1:09:18.760 surprised when people start moving. They move fast and they 1:09:18.800 --> 1:09:21.680 get really riled up, like this, funk, this, this is 1:09:21.680 --> 1:09:25.320 what we're gonna do. And sometimes unions try and like 1:09:25.600 --> 1:09:29.519 bottle that energy up um or you know, if you're 1:09:29.520 --> 1:09:32.719 in a good union, you use that energy to fix things. 1:09:32.920 --> 1:09:36.439 So I think that's kind of where land on all 1:09:36.479 --> 1:09:40.040 this stuff. It's like be aware of like the pitfalls 1:09:40.080 --> 1:09:43.720 of what organizing at work means. Everyone has a right 1:09:43.760 --> 1:09:46.640 to organize at work everywhere in this country. If you 1:09:46.680 --> 1:09:50.000 get fired for like for organizing, you can fight that 1:09:50.120 --> 1:09:53.679 that sort of thing. Yeah, it's federally protected, like it's 1:09:53.680 --> 1:09:55.519 this is this is a federal government thing, like you know, 1:09:55.560 --> 1:09:57.120 this is this is this is what we got in 1:09:57.200 --> 1:10:00.760 exchange for everything else is like like this is you know, 1:10:00.800 --> 1:10:02.200 like this this is what we got in exchange of 1:10:02.240 --> 1:10:05.960 putting our guns down. Is that Like yeah, the the 1:10:05.960 --> 1:10:12.200 the actual Feds will be like, no, you can't do this. Yeah, 1:10:12.240 --> 1:10:16.320 I mean and sometimes that doesn't sound like fold consolation 1:10:17.160 --> 1:10:20.400 and it doesn't always work. But and I guess this 1:10:20.479 --> 1:10:21.960 is the other thing is there are people who are like, 1:10:22.040 --> 1:10:25.320 this is how we're gonna, you know, we're gonna when 1:10:25.400 --> 1:10:28.120 socialism is everyone's in the union. And I guess, like 1:10:28.240 --> 1:10:30.439 my take on it is is this is how we 1:10:30.520 --> 1:10:33.559 build all the networks and get the skills and all 1:10:33.560 --> 1:10:37.679 the necessary things to be prepared to do bigger stuff 1:10:37.720 --> 1:10:42.840 down the road. So when we when workers are talking 1:10:42.880 --> 1:10:45.759 to each other across like you know, at when Chicago, 1:10:45.920 --> 1:10:48.760 when Chicago teachers went on strike, they didn't just go 1:10:48.760 --> 1:10:51.800 on strike as the teachers. They also talked to the 1:10:51.800 --> 1:10:53.600 They lined up their strike to go out as the 1:10:53.600 --> 1:10:56.559 same as education like the school workers who are in 1:10:56.760 --> 1:10:58.640 s C I you and they went out at the 1:10:58.640 --> 1:11:03.320 same time, um, in order to incre improve the power 1:11:03.360 --> 1:11:05.519 of the strike, because the more workers who are out, 1:11:05.800 --> 1:11:10.240 less able the bosses are to like like to undermine 1:11:10.280 --> 1:11:13.280 the boss either with people scabbing on each other or whatever. 1:11:13.360 --> 1:11:15.840 And I think it's just like and like that's the 1:11:15.920 --> 1:11:18.840 point of our labor council is like when like the 1:11:18.880 --> 1:11:22.479 grad workers at Universe Chicago go on strike, we got 1:11:22.479 --> 1:11:25.479 teachers out or we got well, there were teachers from 1:11:25.479 --> 1:11:28.160 CTU out on those picket lines. There were nurses and 1:11:28.520 --> 1:11:31.040 anew on those picket lines, and we were doing everything 1:11:31.200 --> 1:11:34.960 we could to communicate to each other because like in 1:11:35.080 --> 1:11:37.160 my work, it doesn't matter that I'm a nurse and 1:11:37.960 --> 1:11:40.280 you're a secretary. We have the same boss. We have 1:11:40.360 --> 1:11:43.679 the same problems a lot of the times. And so 1:11:44.479 --> 1:11:48.080 I think people people want to do the thing, which 1:11:48.120 --> 1:11:50.400 is to all have the glorious general strike that like 1:11:50.479 --> 1:11:53.519 overthrows capitalism or whatever or fixes all the problems that 1:11:53.600 --> 1:11:57.680 your work. But you know, starting everyone forgets all the 1:11:57.760 --> 1:12:01.240 necessary intermediate steps to get to that point. And sometimes 1:12:01.280 --> 1:12:03.360 it means just get the union in the door in 1:12:03.400 --> 1:12:05.600 the first place, because like at a campaign I was 1:12:05.640 --> 1:12:09.639 a part of here in Chicago where my University Chicago 1:12:09.680 --> 1:12:12.080 bought a non union hospital that was out in the community. 1:12:12.760 --> 1:12:16.000 Just getting in there, they were able to expose like 1:12:16.080 --> 1:12:20.919 basically an entire hospital wide scheme of like racial racist 1:12:21.160 --> 1:12:26.240 like practices around raises and compensation. And that is like 1:12:26.320 --> 1:12:29.479 that first step and then fixing that right, because you 1:12:29.479 --> 1:12:32.800 don't want to have like white worse nurses making more 1:12:32.840 --> 1:12:36.479 than black nurses and black percent more than like did 1:12:36.800 --> 1:12:40.439 immigrant nurses like Filipino or like Mexican nurses, get everyone 1:12:40.479 --> 1:12:43.360 on the same page so that you're fighting together instead 1:12:43.400 --> 1:12:46.320 of fighting each other. And you know, those are those 1:12:46.320 --> 1:12:48.760 first steps that you take. And then and then you 1:12:48.760 --> 1:12:53.439 start reaching out to people on other other workplaces or 1:12:53.479 --> 1:12:57.880 other work areas and build that kind of militancy across 1:12:58.040 --> 1:13:00.639 unions so that you can support each other. So maybe 1:13:00.640 --> 1:13:03.400 a secondary strike is illegal right now, but that doesn't 1:13:03.439 --> 1:13:06.439 mean that you don't have, you know, teamsters who won't 1:13:06.479 --> 1:13:09.160 cross the picket line, right you know, how do you 1:13:09.240 --> 1:13:11.640 go out and make it or you can build that 1:13:11.720 --> 1:13:16.720 solidarity so that like in Buffalo and the UM the 1:13:16.760 --> 1:13:19.400 c w A nurses went on strike and they want 1:13:19.479 --> 1:13:23.479 pretty impressive things around staffing ratios. They literally had other 1:13:24.280 --> 1:13:27.320 unions going out and picketing board members of their hospitals 1:13:27.360 --> 1:13:33.320 businesses and like getting really really like aggressive with that 1:13:33.360 --> 1:13:36.519 sort of stuff. So I think that I think that 1:13:36.560 --> 1:13:40.599 people need to just big takeaway is is the biggest 1:13:40.760 --> 1:13:43.280 barrier to any of this stuff, is just getting people 1:13:43.320 --> 1:13:47.599 to believe that collective action is possible and they can 1:13:47.720 --> 1:13:51.960 get you wins, and then making sure that you take 1:13:52.000 --> 1:13:55.360 your time and be patient and understand that there's going 1:13:55.400 --> 1:13:58.439 to be losses. But in the grand scheme of things. 1:13:58.560 --> 1:14:05.479 Don't don't don't mistake what looks like a setback when 1:14:05.520 --> 1:14:08.360 it's actually a victory for like a victory like for 1:14:08.960 --> 1:14:12.519 a real like a defeat, and um, and talk with 1:14:12.560 --> 1:14:15.040 people like that's what they hate that, Like, bosses hate 1:14:15.080 --> 1:14:16.880 it when we're talking with each other and talk to 1:14:16.880 --> 1:14:18.639 people you're not comfortable with. That's the That's the other 1:14:18.680 --> 1:14:21.600 thing is that people are very nervous to talk to 1:14:21.640 --> 1:14:23.920 people like. It's always funny when you run into people 1:14:23.920 --> 1:14:27.120 who are ra ra like unions, ra ra like socialism, 1:14:27.200 --> 1:14:30.320 YadA YadA YadA, and they don't talk to their co workers, right, 1:14:30.800 --> 1:14:32.439 and your co workers are the people you're gonna be 1:14:32.479 --> 1:14:35.599 around for maybe some years, and that's where you spend 1:14:35.600 --> 1:14:37.160 a huge chunk of your time. And like, but you 1:14:37.160 --> 1:14:41.439 don't know what's going on, they're like, oh, they're all hostile. 1:14:41.479 --> 1:14:42.800 They don't want to know anything, they don't want to 1:14:42.840 --> 1:14:46.799 do anything. Funny thing is is that oftentimes the most 1:14:47.280 --> 1:14:49.960 people who seem very skeptical and anti union can be 1:14:50.000 --> 1:14:52.920 flipped and sometimes those people become the best, like the 1:14:52.960 --> 1:14:55.840 most dedicated people to the union. It also means that 1:14:55.840 --> 1:14:57.479 you're going to talk to people you disagree with. Like, 1:14:58.120 --> 1:14:59.840 there was a Trump dude who was on like the 1:15:00.040 --> 1:15:02.759 argating committee for the like our last strike. He fucking 1:15:02.800 --> 1:15:04.559 loved that thing. He was like, we're going on strike, 1:15:05.600 --> 1:15:07.920 but you know, it's also a union full of black women, 1:15:07.960 --> 1:15:09.920 and he shut the funk up when you know it 1:15:10.040 --> 1:15:12.240 wasn't like, you know, being racist and ship, but you 1:15:12.280 --> 1:15:14.200 know you're gonna be with those people. And part of 1:15:14.200 --> 1:15:15.639 the thing is is that it's about how we're all 1:15:15.680 --> 1:15:19.720 moving together rather than making sure everyone is on the 1:15:19.760 --> 1:15:22.240 same page for every single thing, because the biggest thing 1:15:22.360 --> 1:15:26.600 is the collective action and building that collective power, and 1:15:26.640 --> 1:15:32.280 hopefully the collective power is hopefully the collective power outweighs. 1:15:32.320 --> 1:15:36.479 It's if you stand firm on principles like anti racism 1:15:37.120 --> 1:15:40.760 and fighting against discrimination and misogyny that sort of thing, 1:15:40.840 --> 1:15:43.240 it actually builds the power of the union. I think 1:15:43.240 --> 1:15:44.640 that's the other thing is that people are like, oh, 1:15:44.720 --> 1:15:47.120 I don't you know, like, you know, working class people 1:15:47.760 --> 1:15:49.920 are all racist or reactionary or whatever. So I'm going 1:15:49.960 --> 1:15:51.720 to do that and that's how I'm gonna get that's 1:15:51.760 --> 1:15:53.840 my inn And it's like, I think there are a 1:15:53.880 --> 1:15:57.000 lot of people who like they really don't like, you know, 1:15:57.080 --> 1:16:00.639 they don't like being around loud, racist assholes or people 1:16:00.640 --> 1:16:04.200 who you know, say slurs, like especially if it's like, 1:16:04.479 --> 1:16:06.479 I mean, you can make the arguments like this is 1:16:06.880 --> 1:16:09.200 that's their way of dividing us. Our goal is to 1:16:09.240 --> 1:16:14.120 be together. And historically speaking, the one thing that's done 1:16:14.160 --> 1:16:19.840 the most too fight working class racism is union organizing. Yeah. So, 1:16:20.800 --> 1:16:24.920 And I think also, like you know, in terms of 1:16:24.960 --> 1:16:28.840 like building something that's actually you know, durable and powerful 1:16:29.720 --> 1:16:31.280 on top of sort of just the division. I mean, 1:16:31.400 --> 1:16:33.479 you know, even when it becomes stuff like transphobia. Right, 1:16:33.520 --> 1:16:37.439 it's like, you know, if if you can convince people 1:16:38.320 --> 1:16:42.080 to fight like first like fight for the person next 1:16:42.120 --> 1:16:43.280 to them, right, you know, I mean this is this 1:16:43.320 --> 1:16:44.720 is the thing that people like said a lot during 1:16:44.760 --> 1:16:48.800 the Dreean the Burning campaign. But it was like, you know, 1:16:49.040 --> 1:16:52.120 if people like, yeah, like, if you can get someone 1:16:52.160 --> 1:16:55.160 to uh fight like fight for the person next to 1:16:55.200 --> 1:16:57.280 you in a concrete way in the workplace, in a 1:16:57.320 --> 1:17:00.439 way that's actually real for something that doesn't directly aff them, 1:17:01.240 --> 1:17:04.560 you think, you know a A it is just like 1:17:04.479 --> 1:17:07.480 the the amount of power that you've built there is incredible. 1:17:07.520 --> 1:17:12.120 And then be also Okay, I forgot where I was 1:17:12.120 --> 1:17:14.760 going with that, Daniel, please cut that. Hold on, hold on, 1:17:14.800 --> 1:17:16.720 I can kind of build off. Let me just say this, 1:17:17.160 --> 1:17:21.599 My personal experience is that queer women run the labor 1:17:21.640 --> 1:17:27.000 movement and that like and that if you think that 1:17:27.040 --> 1:17:29.240 people who have been bullied from the day they like 1:17:29.360 --> 1:17:32.600 stepped into like a into a kindergarten aren't going to 1:17:32.680 --> 1:17:37.679 be the people who are most equipped to fight bullshit, 1:17:37.840 --> 1:17:42.120 bullying from a boss or injustice or bullshit you're fucking like, like, 1:17:42.280 --> 1:17:44.880 just get the funk out because you haven't been in 1:17:44.920 --> 1:17:47.400 a union and you don't know what you know. I mean, 1:17:47.520 --> 1:17:52.960 you like the like people, unions are at their best 1:17:53.120 --> 1:17:56.639 when they incorporate, you know, all, like when they are 1:17:56.640 --> 1:17:59.639 fighting for everybody, because what a boss can get away 1:17:59.640 --> 1:18:02.720 with with the weakest person, that's what they'll do to 1:18:02.760 --> 1:18:04.840 all of us if they get the chance. And so 1:18:04.920 --> 1:18:07.280 I think that there's this idea that's like, oh, we're 1:18:07.320 --> 1:18:10.200 going to set we're not going to we're going to 1:18:10.240 --> 1:18:12.880 ignore this or that sort of thing. It's like, you know, 1:18:13.040 --> 1:18:16.559 that's when people like, you know, people will turn away 1:18:16.560 --> 1:18:18.800 from unions as they feel like they're not being listened 1:18:18.800 --> 1:18:20.799 to or taken seriously, and you don't know what people's 1:18:20.880 --> 1:18:23.639 like identities are just because you see how they look. 1:18:23.880 --> 1:18:27.080 And so I think that it's real important for us 1:18:27.080 --> 1:18:29.280 to understand that if we're going to fight these fights, 1:18:29.400 --> 1:18:32.639 we need to do so with the understanding that it's everybody, 1:18:32.920 --> 1:18:36.880 and that the working class is a giant, multi racial 1:18:37.080 --> 1:18:40.760 conglomeration of every identity in this country. Um, and that 1:18:40.920 --> 1:18:44.880 the more marginal your identity is, the more useful having 1:18:44.880 --> 1:18:48.280 a union is to like solving your problems. Like I said, 1:18:48.360 --> 1:18:53.080 like racist racist compensation practices, there was no way that 1:18:53.120 --> 1:18:55.360 was going to get fixed, Like it wasn't even uncovered. 1:18:55.360 --> 1:18:57.439 People didn't understand that it was happening until like the 1:18:57.479 --> 1:18:59.960 union got in. Doesn't mean there are other ways of fixing, 1:19:00.160 --> 1:19:02.400 but it's one of the one of the most powerful 1:19:02.400 --> 1:19:05.800 ways to fix things. I think that people just like 1:19:06.439 --> 1:19:09.920 don't understand because they don't have experience. Because they don't 1:19:09.920 --> 1:19:13.760 have an experience, they end up with they end up 1:19:13.800 --> 1:19:16.519 with misconceptions about what they're going to get into, and 1:19:16.560 --> 1:19:18.960 then they get disappointed. And I think the reality, I mean, 1:19:19.040 --> 1:19:21.920 I think that the reality is not as bad as 1:19:21.960 --> 1:19:24.920 sometimes it seems. But also you gotta go into all 1:19:24.960 --> 1:19:27.559 this ship with open eyes. And I think that there's 1:19:28.439 --> 1:19:30.400 and that's the other thing one of the fun things. 1:19:30.600 --> 1:19:32.320 Maybe this will make it into the podcast. I don't know, 1:19:32.400 --> 1:19:34.960 but um, one of the fun things is always like 1:19:35.040 --> 1:19:38.240 hanging out with like if you like every workplace has 1:19:38.320 --> 1:19:41.920 like its lefties just about, and like hanging out with 1:19:41.960 --> 1:19:46.360 the lefties who just can't get their brains wrapped around 1:19:46.360 --> 1:19:48.640 the ship that you need to have a union. I 1:19:48.640 --> 1:19:50.599 think that there's like this idea that's like, oh, I'm 1:19:50.600 --> 1:19:53.240 gonna talk to my friend. They're like they're like they 1:19:53.240 --> 1:19:55.439 say they're a communists, so that the and then that 1:19:55.600 --> 1:19:59.559 all those people do not always but they're they're sitting there. 1:19:59.560 --> 1:20:02.040 It's like talking a bunch of ship about like the union. 1:20:02.040 --> 1:20:03.559 They're a bunch of sellouts is or that, and it's 1:20:03.600 --> 1:20:05.600 like literally it's the only thing you're gonna do to 1:20:05.680 --> 1:20:08.559 get your like to fix the problem. And you're just like, 1:20:08.600 --> 1:20:10.160 we're just trying to get this problem fixed. Can we 1:20:10.200 --> 1:20:12.479 just set aside what you think needs to happen like 1:20:13.120 --> 1:20:15.400 that you guys talked about it. You're like Spartacus League 1:20:15.400 --> 1:20:19.000 meeting or whatever, like, oh, this isn't a real strike, 1:20:19.200 --> 1:20:21.599 Like we're not going out until like for like you know, 1:20:21.680 --> 1:20:24.160 three months. And it's like, you know, it's like the 1:20:24.240 --> 1:20:29.559 sort of thing where um sometimes or oftentimes, and I 1:20:29.560 --> 1:20:32.120 think it's because a lot of people kind of pick 1:20:32.160 --> 1:20:35.000 up their politics almost like an aesthetic as opposed to 1:20:35.040 --> 1:20:37.880 like a thing that like is about like fixing the 1:20:37.960 --> 1:20:43.000 problems in their lives. And sometimes even I'm like, you know, 1:20:43.160 --> 1:20:45.240 like this is the problem that I face is like 1:20:45.960 --> 1:20:49.200 like shit is real like for a lot of people, 1:20:49.280 --> 1:20:51.360 and you can sit there and talk about this or that, 1:20:51.600 --> 1:20:55.640 and like you're you know, you think that things. You know, 1:20:55.680 --> 1:20:58.439 you've got this perfect ideal vision of what things should be, 1:20:58.520 --> 1:21:00.840 and then you've got this kind of imperfect thing in 1:21:00.880 --> 1:21:04.280 front of you that is even though it's imperfect, it's 1:21:04.320 --> 1:21:06.559 basically what you've got. And so it's like you've got 1:21:06.560 --> 1:21:08.920 to kind of you've got to work with what you 1:21:09.000 --> 1:21:11.240 have and fix it up and make it the best 1:21:11.240 --> 1:21:14.040 that you think it can be. UM, but also understand, 1:21:14.080 --> 1:21:16.559 because it's an organization full of people, that it's not 1:21:16.600 --> 1:21:19.000 going to be perfect every time. And yeah, maybe your 1:21:19.160 --> 1:21:21.160 union is going to do some liberal ship, you know, 1:21:21.280 --> 1:21:23.599 and you're gonna and that's going to annoy you, but 1:21:23.680 --> 1:21:26.840 you know, like, um, those people are still going to 1:21:26.880 --> 1:21:28.840 show up on the picket line if you're like, if 1:21:28.920 --> 1:21:32.439 you're organized and you're good and like, you know, that's 1:21:32.840 --> 1:21:35.479 it's not the end of the world that your union 1:21:35.520 --> 1:21:38.400 isn't perfect. Um, but you've got to do everything you 1:21:38.439 --> 1:21:40.439 can to do your best to make it better because 1:21:40.439 --> 1:21:43.360 if you don't, then then liberals will do whatever they're 1:21:43.360 --> 1:21:45.559 gonna do, or conservatives will do whatever they're gonna do, 1:21:45.680 --> 1:21:48.760 and then they will like furtter away this thing. Like 1:21:48.840 --> 1:21:53.559 you can destroy a union if you aren't engaged. Like 1:21:53.600 --> 1:21:56.840 a union can be destroyed by people who think that 1:21:57.120 --> 1:21:58.800 you know, they're just like I just want to get 1:21:58.800 --> 1:22:00.840 my rays and like go home them and like, you know, 1:22:00.880 --> 1:22:04.320 if people's can main concern is like their healthcare or 1:22:04.360 --> 1:22:07.960 like you know, that hour of prep time before they 1:22:07.960 --> 1:22:09.960 start their shift or whatever should you know, start their 1:22:09.960 --> 1:22:14.120 school day or whatever. Um, you know, a union can 1:22:14.160 --> 1:22:16.320 like dissolve out from underneath you and people are like, 1:22:16.360 --> 1:22:18.040 why is no one showing up to this thing? It's 1:22:18.120 --> 1:22:21.360 because you didn't talk to people and find out what 1:22:21.439 --> 1:22:23.160 it is. I think that's the other thing. It's like listen, 1:22:23.280 --> 1:22:24.760 like there's this idea that you're gonna get up and 1:22:24.760 --> 1:22:27.040 give a big speech and get everyone really excited about 1:22:27.040 --> 1:22:29.599 your about like being in a union. But the main 1:22:29.600 --> 1:22:32.240 thing is listening to people and listening to people who 1:22:32.240 --> 1:22:35.799 are critics. You know, your coworkers who have complaints aren't 1:22:35.880 --> 1:22:37.920 like people that you should ignore. Those are people who 1:22:37.920 --> 1:22:41.000 need to listen to because those are people who they've 1:22:41.040 --> 1:22:44.160 got I mean, everyone's got legitimate problems with how you know, 1:22:44.360 --> 1:22:47.519 work is happening. And like just because someone's like, you know, 1:22:47.680 --> 1:22:51.599 union is like, you know, trash, Like then find out 1:22:51.640 --> 1:22:53.519 why they think it's trash and then try and be 1:22:53.640 --> 1:22:55.040 like I want to try and fix out what can 1:22:55.080 --> 1:22:56.640 we do to fix it together? That sort of thing. 1:22:57.560 --> 1:23:01.360 I remember when when I was working, So I worked 1:23:01.360 --> 1:23:05.559 at like maintenance and a county facility for a while, 1:23:05.800 --> 1:23:08.400 and you know, so I was like a like I 1:23:08.439 --> 1:23:10.559 was like I was like a summer higher basically, and 1:23:10.600 --> 1:23:13.120 so we we weren't in the union, but like everyone 1:23:13.120 --> 1:23:14.679 we were working for was in the union, and they 1:23:14.880 --> 1:23:17.200 all like, you know, these are old ex construction worker 1:23:17.280 --> 1:23:22.519 guys and you know, like they're in the union. But 1:23:23.080 --> 1:23:25.080 like I remember that we show these conversations that were 1:23:25.120 --> 1:23:27.000 like okay, so we have a union meeting this week, 1:23:27.080 --> 1:23:28.680 just like do you want to be the person who 1:23:28.760 --> 1:23:30.400 tries to talk about raising wages? And it was like 1:23:30.400 --> 1:23:33.960 everyone was just like no, and you know, people you know, 1:23:34.000 --> 1:23:35.800 like these guys are like very right wing and they 1:23:35.840 --> 1:23:37.400 were just sort of like piste off all the time. 1:23:37.439 --> 1:23:38.960 But it was interesting because the thing they were piste 1:23:39.000 --> 1:23:43.200 off all the time about was that, like, you know, 1:23:43.439 --> 1:23:47.599 their union didn't do anything like the union like they 1:23:47.720 --> 1:23:49.360 they're they they're like they they were. They were basically 1:23:49.439 --> 1:23:53.559 constantly annoyed that like the union didn't like the the 1:23:53.280 --> 1:23:55.639 the union wasn't fighting for pay raises us and wasn't 1:23:55.640 --> 1:23:58.240 sort of fighting And I think that was, you know, 1:23:58.280 --> 1:24:01.559 an example of how this stuff sort of just fails 1:24:01.800 --> 1:24:04.599 if if people aren't like if people don't feel like 1:24:04.920 --> 1:24:09.920 they can actually do something like itself. I mean, and 1:24:09.960 --> 1:24:12.559 they call it service unionism. There's this idea that like 1:24:13.280 --> 1:24:16.280 um or like like that a business union's job is 1:24:16.320 --> 1:24:18.080 to kind of serve you and you kind of like 1:24:18.840 --> 1:24:21.480 they do all the work. Like one of the complaints 1:24:21.520 --> 1:24:25.200 that some people who are not big fans of our 1:24:25.320 --> 1:24:28.599 union our hospital is that like, oh well, other other 1:24:28.760 --> 1:24:34.080 unions have lawyers negotiate the contract for you. And when 1:24:34.080 --> 1:24:37.439 we negotiate, we have a room full of nurses who 1:24:37.439 --> 1:24:41.200 are doing the who are doing the negotiations, and the 1:24:41.320 --> 1:24:45.160 goal is to have it be as transparent as possible, 1:24:45.280 --> 1:24:47.280 and like the idea that you're going to hand over 1:24:47.840 --> 1:24:51.240 negotiations to a lawyer and somehow get a better deal 1:24:51.439 --> 1:24:56.920 than than a room full of of the actual workers. 1:24:56.920 --> 1:24:59.040 And it's funny because we have our bargaining team and 1:24:59.040 --> 1:25:02.840 then like will periodically do something called open bargaining because 1:25:02.840 --> 1:25:04.800 it's the thing that bosses hate. It's like they want 1:25:04.840 --> 1:25:08.040 to make a deal like with a door shut right, um, 1:25:08.080 --> 1:25:11.800 But there's no reason why a union has to do that. Like, 1:25:11.960 --> 1:25:14.479 you can invite whoever you want to your bargaining. You 1:25:14.520 --> 1:25:17.280 can invite community members to your bargaining if you feel 1:25:17.320 --> 1:25:21.040 like you're man it could because management behind closed doors 1:25:21.040 --> 1:25:23.439 will say all kinds of things, and you know, they'll 1:25:23.520 --> 1:25:26.200 they'll trash talk everyone involved and they'll you know, and 1:25:26.240 --> 1:25:30.960 they will make absurd demands about you know, it's like, oh, 1:25:31.000 --> 1:25:32.559 you're all gonna take a pay cut, you know, on 1:25:32.640 --> 1:25:35.760 this contract, that sort of thing, and they hate it. 1:25:35.880 --> 1:25:39.320 They absolutely hate it when like workers actually show up 1:25:39.360 --> 1:25:46.720 to these things, and so, um, I think that understanding that, like, 1:25:48.200 --> 1:25:51.080 I think there's this idea that like some people are 1:25:51.160 --> 1:25:53.519 big on like we have to be kind of like 1:25:54.000 --> 1:25:57.519 secretive to like get the best deal, and like we 1:25:57.560 --> 1:26:00.920 shouldn't be like we shouldn't be transparent with everyone about 1:26:00.960 --> 1:26:03.920 what's going on because that's how like because then they'll 1:26:03.960 --> 1:26:06.920 figure out some way to counter us. But in my experience, 1:26:07.000 --> 1:26:11.880 my understanding is that the more transparent your union is, 1:26:12.760 --> 1:26:17.800 the more involved people get, and the more able people are, 1:26:17.840 --> 1:26:19.400 the more willing people are to put their time and 1:26:19.520 --> 1:26:21.320 energy into it. Because that's what comes down to is 1:26:21.360 --> 1:26:23.320 like people out to like everyone's working and busy and 1:26:23.360 --> 1:26:26.760 their life life is hard and sucks, and so like 1:26:26.840 --> 1:26:29.640 do you have time to dedicate to show up to 1:26:29.760 --> 1:26:32.559 like talk to like if you why would you go 1:26:32.640 --> 1:26:35.120 to a union meeting if when you raise the concern 1:26:35.280 --> 1:26:38.519 like we want higher wages, and like the union like 1:26:38.640 --> 1:26:42.800 staffer doesn't care if you get higher wages because they're 1:26:42.840 --> 1:26:45.280 like while we're getting our union dudes, and like what 1:26:45.280 --> 1:26:49.600 what then do we care? Right, that's like a huge problem. 1:26:49.680 --> 1:26:51.559 And the part of the thing is that those problems 1:26:51.600 --> 1:26:54.000 don't get solved if they if they exist, because they 1:26:54.280 --> 1:26:57.559 that definitely exists. And and a lot of unions, more unions, 1:26:57.600 --> 1:27:02.719 and uh than not if the workers don't get organized together. 1:27:03.720 --> 1:27:07.200 Like right, we just saw a an election within the 1:27:07.200 --> 1:27:16.519 Teamsters International where uh the halfa uh Jimmy Haffa Jr. 1:27:16.840 --> 1:27:19.040 One of the half a kids was like president of 1:27:19.040 --> 1:27:22.280 the union and was this like not doing a great 1:27:22.400 --> 1:27:26.280 job and um, and like there was a rank and 1:27:26.400 --> 1:27:31.080 file like push to get that guy uh unelected, you know, 1:27:31.120 --> 1:27:33.439 and put it replaced with a rank and file worker 1:27:33.520 --> 1:27:37.280 who wants to put actual time and resources into organizing. 1:27:37.280 --> 1:27:40.040 You know. Like there's nothing sadder than a than like 1:27:40.120 --> 1:27:44.880 watching a union campaign failed because the union clearly is 1:27:44.880 --> 1:27:47.960 phoning it in, Like that's happened. I've seen it happen, 1:27:48.160 --> 1:27:52.560 not inside my union, but in other unions. And uh 1:27:52.640 --> 1:27:55.599 and I mean like at my workplace, there's several unions 1:27:55.600 --> 1:27:58.040 and I've seen I've seen a failed campaign and it's 1:27:58.080 --> 1:28:00.920 like obvious, like there's uh, you know, I'm not I 1:28:00.920 --> 1:28:04.240 don't co sign everything that someone like Jaye mccavalary. I 1:28:04.240 --> 1:28:07.519 think that's a share McCay clary has to say. She wrote, 1:28:07.520 --> 1:28:10.559 like no shortcuts. Um, I don't sign off and everything 1:28:10.600 --> 1:28:12.760 she has to say, but she has some really insightful things. 1:28:12.760 --> 1:28:16.599 It's like if you're not organizing to win, like you'll fail, 1:28:16.840 --> 1:28:18.920 and like you have to take this so seriously. And 1:28:18.960 --> 1:28:21.519 that's where like I'll say that, like, if you've got 1:28:21.520 --> 1:28:23.439 a choice between I'm going to put time into a 1:28:23.479 --> 1:28:28.080 political political campaign versus a union campaign, You're going to 1:28:28.160 --> 1:28:29.880 get way more bang for your buck. You're gonna get 1:28:29.880 --> 1:28:33.040 so much more experience, You're gonna get like a durable 1:28:33.760 --> 1:28:36.280 organization that's going to be around for years if you 1:28:36.320 --> 1:28:40.760 put that time into a union campaign. Because like, imagine 1:28:41.320 --> 1:28:45.920 winning an election right, um, except the politician you're running 1:28:45.920 --> 1:28:50.240 against is the incumbent and they can um basically drag 1:28:50.320 --> 1:28:53.080 every one of their constituents into like a meeting and 1:28:53.120 --> 1:28:55.800 tell them how awful you are all the time and 1:28:55.880 --> 1:28:59.040 lie and say whatever they want, and then they can, 1:28:59.160 --> 1:29:01.960 you know, do all kinds of tricks to like basically 1:29:02.040 --> 1:29:05.080 dismantle your campaign. So I guess like the thing that 1:29:05.120 --> 1:29:07.200 I would say is that like if you if you 1:29:07.400 --> 1:29:10.320 do it the right way and you actually win one 1:29:10.320 --> 1:29:12.719 of those campaigns, you're going to come out way ahead 1:29:12.760 --> 1:29:14.920 and sort of understanding like you have to talk to people. 1:29:14.920 --> 1:29:16.559 You have to be super organized. You have to know 1:29:16.640 --> 1:29:21.200 what people's issues are in their different targeting units. UM. 1:29:21.400 --> 1:29:24.559 You have to find people like part of like it's 1:29:24.600 --> 1:29:27.320 successful campaigns. I've been part of literally going on a 1:29:27.360 --> 1:29:31.000 search to go find like the people that need to 1:29:31.040 --> 1:29:34.439 be like signing cards and stuff. And you just have 1:29:34.560 --> 1:29:36.960 to be a very good listener, ready to talk and 1:29:37.000 --> 1:29:40.080 listen and hear what people have to say, um, and 1:29:40.120 --> 1:29:44.439 then turn that um information into knowledge and knowledge and 1:29:44.520 --> 1:29:49.840 power um and UM. I think that if you pull 1:29:49.920 --> 1:29:53.400 it off, you have done something substantially harder than say, 1:29:53.439 --> 1:29:56.160 like winning a school board election or something like that. 1:29:56.360 --> 1:29:59.439 I mean, it's it's it really is. It's like taking 1:30:00.600 --> 1:30:02.640 like those kind of skills that you would use to 1:30:02.720 --> 1:30:05.880 like win some sort of small municipal election, and it's 1:30:05.920 --> 1:30:09.160 like exponentially more hard because the rules are just so 1:30:09.280 --> 1:30:14.040 tilted against you winning. So if you are serious about it, 1:30:14.080 --> 1:30:17.400 if you're serious about changing the world, if you can't 1:30:17.520 --> 1:30:20.360 like someone, uh yeah, I think Murray Buckschen once said, 1:30:20.400 --> 1:30:23.439 if you can't run for dog catcher, you probably shouldn't 1:30:23.439 --> 1:30:26.840 be talking about revolution, you know. But I think that 1:30:27.000 --> 1:30:30.120 probably more you know, more appropriate to be like if 1:30:30.160 --> 1:30:32.600 you can't win a union election, you probably shouldn't be 1:30:32.600 --> 1:30:35.720 talking about revolution because even if you want to do 1:30:35.800 --> 1:30:39.240 all the things, you need to have the ability, the skills, 1:30:39.400 --> 1:30:42.760 the ability I mediate conflict, getting everyone on board to 1:30:42.840 --> 1:30:45.920 do the collective action that like you would need to 1:30:45.960 --> 1:30:48.800 do to successfully kind of like carry out. Like you know, 1:30:48.800 --> 1:30:52.280 it's one thing to have the the grand insurrection. It's 1:30:52.320 --> 1:30:54.639 the other thing to carry it forward and keep carrying 1:30:54.680 --> 1:30:56.559 it to the point where you're over the line you've 1:30:56.680 --> 1:31:00.280 completely changed the world, right, So and I think that 1:31:00.400 --> 1:31:03.960 and so I just think that like UM and I 1:31:04.000 --> 1:31:06.720 think that's similar things go with, like you know, tenant organizing, 1:31:06.880 --> 1:31:11.120 community organizing. There's various types of organizing that use those 1:31:11.120 --> 1:31:14.439 similar skills that you get in like a union campaign. UM. 1:31:14.520 --> 1:31:18.680 And it's just a very different type of UM politics 1:31:18.960 --> 1:31:22.800 and organization and skills that you would get from you know, 1:31:22.920 --> 1:31:25.840 showing up for your local justice down and you know, 1:31:25.880 --> 1:31:28.240 like knocking on the doors of strangers you'll never you 1:31:28.280 --> 1:31:30.479 may never speak to you again. You know, when you're 1:31:30.479 --> 1:31:32.519 talking with your coworkers, those are your coworkers. They are 1:31:32.520 --> 1:31:35.599 going to be there until you're you know, you retire 1:31:35.680 --> 1:31:39.640 or you're fired. Or you quit. So anyway, that's I 1:31:39.680 --> 1:31:41.960 guess that's another good takeaway I think from all this. 1:31:42.360 --> 1:31:45.639 So one thing I wanted to make sure to get 1:31:45.680 --> 1:31:49.599 to is, so I think there's a lot of people 1:31:50.240 --> 1:31:53.960 who are listening to this who working non union workplaces 1:31:54.080 --> 1:31:57.439 and want to try to start this, and I wanted 1:31:57.479 --> 1:32:01.519 to know what would be your recommendations for them. You know, how, 1:32:01.560 --> 1:32:04.160 how how do you start this process? What does this 1:32:04.240 --> 1:32:08.760 look like? In what kinds of conversations should you be 1:32:08.840 --> 1:32:13.800 having with your coworkers? Yeah, for sure. So, um, I 1:32:13.840 --> 1:32:15.920 think one of the first things that I think a 1:32:15.920 --> 1:32:20.200 lot of people, a lot of people don't understand is 1:32:20.240 --> 1:32:23.560 that there's an amount of risk and stuff too organizing 1:32:23.640 --> 1:32:26.400 and that you're like, first off, like you should be 1:32:26.600 --> 1:32:29.880 chill and like not like running around telling everyone you 1:32:29.880 --> 1:32:31.479 want a union, because that's a great way to lose 1:32:31.520 --> 1:32:35.040 your job. Um. I think the thing is is that 1:32:35.320 --> 1:32:38.920 you build relationships and find out what's happening, like just 1:32:38.960 --> 1:32:43.360 like you know, take from your experience and figure out 1:32:43.439 --> 1:32:46.559 what's like in uh, like, man, it really sucks, like 1:32:46.680 --> 1:32:49.200 I got like I got screwed over on my vacation 1:32:49.240 --> 1:32:52.680 requests or like I you know, man, our raises were 1:32:52.680 --> 1:32:54.680 really shitty this year, and I heard like, you know, 1:32:54.800 --> 1:32:58.120 boss talking about like how much like like they've made 1:32:58.120 --> 1:33:02.200 so much money that sort of thing. Um, So I 1:33:02.240 --> 1:33:06.400 think that it comes down to you have to be 1:33:06.760 --> 1:33:10.200 it's kind of like a combination of like like an 1:33:10.240 --> 1:33:15.080 investigative reporter and like someone who is just really good 1:33:15.120 --> 1:33:17.840 at like talking to people and just kind of like 1:33:17.920 --> 1:33:22.800 understanding what's making them tick and understanding also that maybe 1:33:22.840 --> 1:33:25.280 you're not the person who's going to get everyone on board, 1:33:25.760 --> 1:33:29.280 but that finding other people who every like I think 1:33:29.320 --> 1:33:32.160 the big thing is like who's like the most respected 1:33:32.240 --> 1:33:35.400 person on like in your work area that sort of thing, 1:33:35.479 --> 1:33:38.559 who like they know that the unit, or they know 1:33:38.640 --> 1:33:41.200 the work area, they've been there the longest, they have 1:33:41.360 --> 1:33:43.880 like the most experience. People look up to them. There 1:33:43.880 --> 1:33:45.880 are the people who train other people that sort of thing. 1:33:46.439 --> 1:33:49.160 Those are the people who everyone looks to when it 1:33:49.200 --> 1:33:51.920 comes down to these sorts of things. And you know, 1:33:52.040 --> 1:33:54.519 just you don't have to be friends with everybody, but 1:33:54.600 --> 1:33:57.200 like doing it's I think it's really good to just 1:33:57.360 --> 1:34:01.840 like two be open to you listening to everybody that 1:34:01.920 --> 1:34:04.720 you work with and finding out what it is that's 1:34:04.760 --> 1:34:10.320 really going on. Yes, I've noticed like in a lot 1:34:10.320 --> 1:34:14.120 of places that I've worked, like the bosses often don't 1:34:14.120 --> 1:34:18.439 really know what's going on either, like they and I 1:34:18.439 --> 1:34:20.400 think that that that's something they can give you if 1:34:20.439 --> 1:34:23.479 you understand how the process works and who's doing what 1:34:23.560 --> 1:34:26.680 and what people like need, that gives you like a 1:34:26.760 --> 1:34:30.800 big advantage over the bosses who just have no idea 1:34:30.840 --> 1:34:37.320 what's going on. Which I think, yeah, I think it's 1:34:37.400 --> 1:34:40.800 very it's very normal for bosses to really not know 1:34:40.840 --> 1:34:44.639 what's happening, and there's always someone who does like figuring 1:34:44.640 --> 1:34:48.679 out the people who really know how things work are 1:34:48.800 --> 1:34:52.200 like those are like the those are the people who, um, 1:34:52.360 --> 1:34:55.400 you want to be talking with and figuring out like 1:34:55.920 --> 1:35:01.720 where they kind of stand on things, and um, you know, 1:35:01.760 --> 1:35:03.720 I think like the first step is like just having 1:35:03.760 --> 1:35:07.880 good relationships and people trusting you and you know, you know, 1:35:08.000 --> 1:35:10.920 if you know, Like, I don't think everyone needs to 1:35:10.960 --> 1:35:13.120 be a superstar workers sort of thing to be a 1:35:13.160 --> 1:35:16.439 good union organizer. But like they always say, it's like 1:35:16.479 --> 1:35:19.880 people who have the most problems oftentimes are people that 1:35:19.960 --> 1:35:22.640 aren't don't make great organizers because people don't see them 1:35:22.640 --> 1:35:28.240 as people to follow. But um, um, but I think 1:35:28.240 --> 1:35:30.800 that it's important to just like talk with your to 1:35:30.880 --> 1:35:32.880 like just figure out what's going on first. That's your 1:35:32.920 --> 1:35:35.160 first step. Figure out what's going on? What are the 1:35:35.200 --> 1:35:38.479 things I mean? And you can come around together in 1:35:39.040 --> 1:35:41.160 you know, and like and how do you get people 1:35:41.240 --> 1:35:44.360 outside of the workplace? So you talk like how do you, 1:35:44.640 --> 1:35:47.000 like do you have like a group chat or signal 1:35:47.080 --> 1:35:49.760 chat or like a What's app chat or Facebook group? 1:35:50.120 --> 1:35:51.720 And where do you just like start kind of like 1:35:51.800 --> 1:35:54.000 and you know, be very care be careful about who's 1:35:54.040 --> 1:35:56.599 involved and just kind of like low key, just like 1:35:56.640 --> 1:36:00.439 start talking with folks and identifying to people who who 1:36:00.760 --> 1:36:03.519 are outside of your work area, who know people Like 1:36:03.600 --> 1:36:05.680 sometimes it's you know, you'll talk to people and they're like, 1:36:05.720 --> 1:36:07.760 I don't want to talk about a union, but you 1:36:07.760 --> 1:36:10.440 can be like, do you know anyone who cares? Who 1:36:10.200 --> 1:36:14.120 who has said anything about unions before? And so talking 1:36:14.160 --> 1:36:17.320 to people to find out who they know. Like these 1:36:17.320 --> 1:36:19.120 are all this kind of like crucial first steps to 1:36:19.200 --> 1:36:22.000 like organizing. And I think the thing is is that, 1:36:22.160 --> 1:36:26.479 like there have been times where you'll have a non 1:36:26.560 --> 1:36:31.040 union workplace where if the people in a particular area 1:36:31.120 --> 1:36:33.840 of of like a of like a hospital or like 1:36:33.880 --> 1:36:37.360 a workplace wherever we'll do some collective thing that gets 1:36:37.360 --> 1:36:39.720 some sort of results. So I think it's always like 1:36:39.760 --> 1:36:43.439 it's like, let's get people to sign off on a 1:36:43.479 --> 1:36:47.880 petition about like you know, like if of your coworkers 1:36:49.040 --> 1:36:51.479 are unhappy with like races or something like that. Like 1:36:51.520 --> 1:36:53.719 the more people that are involved in those first steps, 1:36:54.720 --> 1:36:58.680 the more likely it is that it won't result in 1:36:58.720 --> 1:37:03.240 retaliation and like you'll end up getting some sort of victory. Um. 1:37:03.320 --> 1:37:07.280 So I guess like the thing that I would say 1:37:07.360 --> 1:37:11.559 is just like be be ready for like people to 1:37:11.600 --> 1:37:15.840 look at greet you a skepticism because like it's it's hard, 1:37:16.479 --> 1:37:19.120 it's a hard thing to do, and um, always just 1:37:19.160 --> 1:37:22.200 be finding out what is bothering people and then look 1:37:22.200 --> 1:37:24.800 at little things that you can do to kind of 1:37:24.840 --> 1:37:28.200 like flex power, like to like collectively flex your power. 1:37:29.120 --> 1:37:33.439 And um, it can be as small as like everyone 1:37:33.520 --> 1:37:37.160 bringing up the same issue at like a work meeting, right, 1:37:37.439 --> 1:37:40.400 Like if you and it could be like, hey, let's 1:37:40.400 --> 1:37:42.320 talk about this at this work meeting. This is and 1:37:42.360 --> 1:37:44.600 if we all say something together like we're going to 1:37:44.720 --> 1:37:50.120 be fine. Right. Um, So, like starting with those first steps, 1:37:50.200 --> 1:37:52.240 I think it is the first like thing Like the 1:37:52.280 --> 1:37:55.120 first thing is know what's going on, build relationships, be 1:37:55.160 --> 1:37:58.080 a trustworthy person, Like you can't be like the unit 1:37:58.120 --> 1:38:01.120 gossip or the the work a gossip that like knows 1:38:01.280 --> 1:38:03.439 that's in everyone's business or stirring up stuff and be 1:38:03.800 --> 1:38:07.400 successful at this UM. But if you are, you know, 1:38:07.479 --> 1:38:10.640 if you're someone that people like trust or look to 1:38:11.040 --> 1:38:12.840 or you know, like a person that people are like 1:38:12.880 --> 1:38:15.919 they help solve our problems, those are the people who 1:38:16.000 --> 1:38:18.599 I mean, you're going to be well set to begin 1:38:18.720 --> 1:38:21.360 to kind of take the steps on that and then 1:38:21.439 --> 1:38:23.439 you know, as you kind of build those kind of 1:38:23.479 --> 1:38:28.240 like build that organization step by step. No, no union 1:38:28.760 --> 1:38:33.960 UM is going to invest the time in a union 1:38:34.040 --> 1:38:36.599 campaign if it's just you and like to other people 1:38:36.880 --> 1:38:39.280 like you need like you need to get a room. 1:38:39.320 --> 1:38:40.960 They're always say like, well, if you get a room 1:38:40.960 --> 1:38:43.280 full of people together, I'm willing to talk to them. 1:38:43.320 --> 1:38:45.360 And that's kind of the thing. And you know, Zoom 1:38:45.400 --> 1:38:49.400 and stuff has actually made that a little bit easier UM, 1:38:49.439 --> 1:38:51.240 which in some ways can be a weakness because you 1:38:51.320 --> 1:38:53.760 end up with like it's a lot less commitment to 1:38:53.800 --> 1:38:55.720 show up to a Zoom meeting that it is to 1:38:56.800 --> 1:38:59.559 UM to show up at like a bar or a 1:38:59.560 --> 1:39:03.639 place to work UM or a church or wherever it's 1:39:03.680 --> 1:39:07.200 like a good like like neutral, safe place and people 1:39:07.240 --> 1:39:09.000 feel like they can be honest with each other about 1:39:09.000 --> 1:39:11.680 what's going on. UM. But at the same time, just 1:39:11.800 --> 1:39:19.599 like being the more the the more people you get 1:39:19.640 --> 1:39:22.200 on board with the thing, the more likely that it 1:39:22.240 --> 1:39:26.479 will succeed. You'll attract support from like an actual union 1:39:26.880 --> 1:39:29.599 that m is able to help you if you decide 1:39:29.600 --> 1:39:31.559 that that's how you want to do it, or if 1:39:31.600 --> 1:39:34.120 that makes sense in a legal context. And so I 1:39:34.240 --> 1:39:37.120 just like always like start small, figure out the small things, 1:39:37.760 --> 1:39:40.360 be willing to do like collective action to get little 1:39:40.360 --> 1:39:44.360 small victories. And that's a great way to get started, 1:39:44.680 --> 1:39:47.920 I think, and then like really do like sleuthing and research, 1:39:48.000 --> 1:39:51.120 like figure out how things actually work. UM. That's like 1:39:51.800 --> 1:39:54.360 you know, that was a problem with the best Market 1:39:54.400 --> 1:39:57.799 campaign down in uh down in Alabama with those Amazon 1:39:57.840 --> 1:40:00.599 workers is they didn't know how many people worked at 1:40:00.600 --> 1:40:03.240 that facility, and then all of a sudden, they're like, oh, yeah, 1:40:03.280 --> 1:40:05.320 we're going to include like an extra thousand people on 1:40:05.400 --> 1:40:10.640 this vote, you know, like six weeks out, and you know, 1:40:11.160 --> 1:40:12.519 like I don't want to I don't want to take 1:40:12.520 --> 1:40:14.200 a dump on the people who did that. But like, 1:40:14.720 --> 1:40:17.080 if you don't know that there's like another thousand people 1:40:17.920 --> 1:40:20.640 or you don't have like everyone on board, you're not 1:40:20.680 --> 1:40:24.040 going to succeed. So no, everything you can as you're 1:40:24.080 --> 1:40:26.160 going in and do everything you can to find out 1:40:26.320 --> 1:40:29.439 things or make buddies with the friends buddies of the 1:40:29.439 --> 1:40:32.760 people who are gonna you know, know these things and 1:40:33.160 --> 1:40:35.439 you know, and then support each other, like it means 1:40:35.439 --> 1:40:39.200 showing up and like someone. Sometimes what we do during 1:40:39.240 --> 1:40:44.080 these campaigns is someone will will have the contact for 1:40:44.200 --> 1:40:46.800 someone who's interested, and then your job is to go 1:40:46.880 --> 1:40:50.080 and find that person where they work and talk with 1:40:50.120 --> 1:40:51.720 them and then talk with them while they talk with 1:40:51.760 --> 1:40:54.280 their coworkers, or back up them while they're talking to 1:40:54.320 --> 1:40:56.679 the co workers, because they trust their their co workers, 1:40:56.720 --> 1:41:00.360 trust their coworker. You know, you're a random stranger, you know, 1:41:00.439 --> 1:41:02.120 And then like don't be afraid to say, I don't know, 1:41:02.160 --> 1:41:04.599 but I will find out. Right, there's like this there's 1:41:04.600 --> 1:41:07.080 this pressure I think to like have all the answers 1:41:07.320 --> 1:41:10.479 to like whatever people's questions are. And I think that 1:41:10.560 --> 1:41:16.960 it's like, um, I think that it's like I think 1:41:17.000 --> 1:41:22.080 that it's important to be honest when you don't understand, 1:41:22.120 --> 1:41:23.920 but then do the work of figuring out the answers 1:41:23.920 --> 1:41:27.479 for people. Um, and I think people respect that. And 1:41:27.720 --> 1:41:29.679 you know a lot of people who are vocally against 1:41:30.280 --> 1:41:33.200 these sorts of things up front, it's because they don't know. 1:41:33.760 --> 1:41:35.760 And if you you know, you're like, no, we've got 1:41:35.760 --> 1:41:39.200 a right to do this, or like, you know, the 1:41:39.200 --> 1:41:42.040 the you know, a management will say things like managion 1:41:42.120 --> 1:41:46.519 will say things like oh you will, um, you know, 1:41:46.880 --> 1:41:50.040 the union will get in between our relationship with you know, 1:41:50.120 --> 1:41:53.400 with you and us, right, And the point is is 1:41:53.400 --> 1:41:55.519 that like, well, the union is us where the cod 1:41:55.600 --> 1:41:57.800 where the people doing it, like everyone running. You can't 1:41:57.880 --> 1:42:00.080 run a union if you don't have a bunch of 1:42:00.200 --> 1:42:03.559 people involved from the workplace. And it's like and making 1:42:03.600 --> 1:42:07.040 sure that people who are um, those people who end 1:42:07.120 --> 1:42:09.840 up being kind of like spokespersons for everyone else, are 1:42:09.880 --> 1:42:12.759 people that folks trust and they have like a good 1:42:12.880 --> 1:42:18.120 like grasp of what everyone wants and yeah, so yeah, 1:42:18.160 --> 1:42:19.800 and then like you know, don't get bogged down in 1:42:19.840 --> 1:42:22.920 the legal ship. Like you know, collective action really is 1:42:23.000 --> 1:42:25.960 like your most powerful tool, um, all the other kind 1:42:25.960 --> 1:42:28.959 of like the grievances and that's some stuff. It's important 1:42:29.000 --> 1:42:30.960 and you can't let it go. But it's also like 1:42:31.600 --> 1:42:35.559 it's designed to kind of grind people down. So um, 1:42:35.600 --> 1:42:38.920 you know, the more collective action you take, like, the 1:42:39.000 --> 1:42:40.960 more likely it is that you're going to be successful 1:42:41.000 --> 1:42:44.960 and keep people engaged and excited. Yeah, going back to 1:42:45.000 --> 1:42:48.200 what you were saying earlier, this might mind up being 1:42:48.320 --> 1:42:51.880 last episode depending on where this breaks down time wise, 1:42:51.920 --> 1:42:55.200 But yeah, I think it's also it's just this is 1:42:55.240 --> 1:42:58.360 going to take time and a lot of work, and 1:42:59.240 --> 1:43:04.400 I think it's it's it's important age to understand going 1:43:04.439 --> 1:43:06.200 in that this is a long and difficult process. It's 1:43:06.200 --> 1:43:10.000 not gonna happen overnight and be that it's a lot 1:43:10.040 --> 1:43:12.559 of work, Like you have to there's there's a lot 1:43:12.600 --> 1:43:14.400 of things that you have to do. There's a lot 1:43:14.439 --> 1:43:16.160 of sort of logistics, there's a lot of talking, there's 1:43:16.200 --> 1:43:19.720 a lot of like negotiating, there's a lot of sort 1:43:19.720 --> 1:43:23.400 of I mean just just even I don't know, before 1:43:23.439 --> 1:43:25.799 anything gets off the ground, you have to spend enormous 1:43:25.840 --> 1:43:29.040 amounts of time and effort doing stuff. And that's that's 1:43:29.080 --> 1:43:32.400 that's like it's just the reality of it. So yeah, 1:43:32.400 --> 1:43:35.120 there's there's no there's there's no there's there's there's there's 1:43:35.160 --> 1:43:38.200 no magic bullet, like there's no sort of yeah, there's 1:43:38.240 --> 1:43:40.840 there's no just like one thing you can do that 1:43:40.920 --> 1:43:43.679 like magically makes a U need appear. It's a bunch 1:43:43.720 --> 1:43:47.040 of people coming together and like fighting for it for 1:43:47.080 --> 1:43:49.760 a long time. Yeah, I think that that's like the 1:43:49.800 --> 1:43:53.240 main thing is like you're it's it's a cliche, that's 1:43:53.280 --> 1:43:57.840 like it's a marathon not as prints. Um. Sometimes I 1:43:57.840 --> 1:43:59.840 hate when people say that ship, but it's true, like 1:44:00.040 --> 1:44:04.080 you you really do have like, um, you're in it 1:44:04.160 --> 1:44:06.000 for the long haul, and a lot of times it's 1:44:06.040 --> 1:44:10.360 like your people are ready to do these things when 1:44:10.720 --> 1:44:13.280 they're like this is like I don't want you know, 1:44:13.400 --> 1:44:15.160 it's one thing to pop up in a place and 1:44:15.240 --> 1:44:17.000 be there for like you know, six months, be like 1:44:17.040 --> 1:44:20.040 I need a we need a union, right, No one 1:44:20.080 --> 1:44:22.200 you know that works at that place, trust you. They 1:44:22.240 --> 1:44:24.640 don't know who you are, Like they're not going to 1:44:24.720 --> 1:44:27.720 follow you to do anything or you know, or take 1:44:27.800 --> 1:44:31.599 you you know, follow your lead. Um, it's the people 1:44:31.640 --> 1:44:34.280 who are like I'm gonna be here, this is my 1:44:34.479 --> 1:44:36.120 this is where I want to be, and you know, 1:44:36.200 --> 1:44:38.240 this is a I want to be here for the 1:44:38.280 --> 1:44:40.360 next two years and think of it as like a 1:44:40.479 --> 1:44:43.240 long term investment in the quality of your life and 1:44:43.240 --> 1:44:47.599 the quality of life at your workplace, because to win, 1:44:47.800 --> 1:44:51.160 you have to be sticking around, you know. And I 1:44:51.200 --> 1:44:54.800 think that's where it gets tough with people who are 1:44:54.920 --> 1:44:59.519 in like precarious types of employment or different types of 1:44:59.560 --> 1:45:01.920 and that's you have to start looking at alternate ways 1:45:01.920 --> 1:45:05.679 to organize because maybe you're a precarious worker who does 1:45:06.280 --> 1:45:09.439 maybe you drive, like for a rideshare service, or maybe 1:45:09.520 --> 1:45:12.479 you like do delivery or like you know, um for 1:45:12.560 --> 1:45:14.880 an app or whatever, you delivered for an app. And 1:45:14.920 --> 1:45:18.320 I think the thing is is like that sort of 1:45:18.360 --> 1:45:21.680 thing because of how and you know, these aren't like 1:45:21.800 --> 1:45:24.200 new forms of work. This is actually really old forms 1:45:24.200 --> 1:45:26.439 of work that are just like been like rebranded by 1:45:26.479 --> 1:45:30.400 tech bros who have decided like they're like they're like 1:45:30.439 --> 1:45:34.280 they're great geniuses like rebranding the kind of like precarious 1:45:34.320 --> 1:45:37.240 work that was really like prominent like throughout the nineteenth century. 1:45:37.800 --> 1:45:39.640 And it's like, so then what do you do is 1:45:39.680 --> 1:45:43.320 you come up with ways to organize people regardless of 1:45:43.479 --> 1:45:45.840 like oh, like I'm you know, I work for this, 1:45:46.160 --> 1:45:48.559 like I work for Lift or I work for Uber, 1:45:48.600 --> 1:45:50.800 and it kind of switches back and forth. Like the 1:45:50.800 --> 1:45:52.880 thing is, it's like that's when you start talking with 1:45:53.640 --> 1:45:58.519 you know, rideshare drivers across different like apps or whatever, 1:45:58.640 --> 1:46:00.280 and then you come up with a way to work 1:46:00.400 --> 1:46:04.920 collectively um to to change sorts of things. And sometimes 1:46:05.000 --> 1:46:07.600 that's it's gonna be it's gonna be tough, you know, 1:46:08.360 --> 1:46:10.000 And that's when I kind of look at those that 1:46:10.080 --> 1:46:11.600 sort of thing is like this is where it's a 1:46:11.720 --> 1:46:15.200 learning experience and maybe I don't get everything I want, 1:46:15.240 --> 1:46:17.439 but you know, it's really important. I mean, it's like 1:46:17.479 --> 1:46:20.840 building these networks that people who care about like what 1:46:20.880 --> 1:46:23.759 they're working conditions are like, and you can pull things 1:46:23.760 --> 1:46:26.400 off maybe unexpectedly that you didn't expect. We're going to 1:46:26.479 --> 1:46:30.840 be like the thing, you know, like you may start 1:46:30.880 --> 1:46:32.920 with something that looks like a union drive and then 1:46:32.960 --> 1:46:37.320 you end up with something that looks like very different. 1:46:37.320 --> 1:46:38.880 It could you know, could go in all sorts of 1:46:38.920 --> 1:46:43.200 different directions. So um you know there and look outside 1:46:43.240 --> 1:46:45.280 of the US, you know their countries where like in 1:46:45.479 --> 1:46:49.000 UM I think that there have been some pretty successful 1:46:49.120 --> 1:46:55.040 delivery app or going to organizing in London UM and 1:46:55.840 --> 1:46:59.400 you know, I think that to a certain extent, like 1:47:00.080 --> 1:47:05.000 formal extent, US unions have not been very successful in 1:47:05.120 --> 1:47:10.320 organizing those workers because it doesn't it's hard to do 1:47:11.120 --> 1:47:15.479 from the extant business union model, and so it's like 1:47:15.760 --> 1:47:17.800 it's one of those things where you know it used 1:47:17.840 --> 1:47:21.920 to be you know, they would have like you know, 1:47:21.960 --> 1:47:24.040 the fight would be instead of trying to get like 1:47:24.200 --> 1:47:30.840 workers are like a contract at a particular like work site, 1:47:30.880 --> 1:47:32.880 you'd set up a hiring hall, like the i w 1:47:33.080 --> 1:47:36.479 W would set up hiring halls UM and like you know, 1:47:36.640 --> 1:47:38.799 for lumberjacks and that sort of thing, and those workers 1:47:38.800 --> 1:47:42.519 are always precarious, right, but they would go trying set 1:47:42.600 --> 1:47:45.280 up so that like people would only take jobs out 1:47:45.280 --> 1:47:47.240 of the hiring hall, and that's how they would control 1:47:47.280 --> 1:47:51.160 their like their work. And I think that more unions needed. 1:47:51.200 --> 1:47:55.639 And part of this is like if there's any union 1:47:55.680 --> 1:47:57.800 people out there who are in staff and that sort 1:47:57.840 --> 1:47:59.759 of thing, is like there needs to be a serious 1:48:00.720 --> 1:48:03.679 examination of how we do unions in this country. And 1:48:03.760 --> 1:48:06.240 I think a lot of people inside unions understand that, 1:48:06.840 --> 1:48:09.080 but no one has quite done it yet in a 1:48:09.120 --> 1:48:12.080 way that's effective and I think that we really do 1:48:12.160 --> 1:48:14.360 need to kind of re evaluate that sort of stuff. 1:48:14.400 --> 1:48:18.439 So just you know, as someone who's going into like 1:48:18.479 --> 1:48:21.000 a new sort of organizing campaign, just understand that like 1:48:23.040 --> 1:48:26.599 getting the union contract isn't necessarily the end gold end 1:48:26.600 --> 1:48:28.320 goal is to try and get your boss to do 1:48:28.439 --> 1:48:31.240 things differently so that you're not like miserable at work. 1:48:31.400 --> 1:48:33.880 And that might look like a contract, or it might 1:48:33.920 --> 1:48:37.679 look like you know, a a one day like uh, 1:48:37.920 --> 1:48:39.760 you know, app strike or something like that. You know, 1:48:39.800 --> 1:48:42.040 you'll you'll figure you've got to figure out how it's 1:48:42.040 --> 1:48:47.160 going to work. Like with you know, in healthcare, you know, 1:48:47.400 --> 1:48:50.120 there's this idea that like, you know, there's the gold 1:48:50.160 --> 1:48:52.200 standard of the strike where you strike until we win 1:48:52.240 --> 1:48:53.800 and we're out for like you know, like two or 1:48:53.840 --> 1:48:56.559 three months. Well, the problem is that there's an industry 1:48:56.560 --> 1:49:00.360 of scab nurses and health care workers where at any 1:49:00.360 --> 1:49:03.360 point they can bring in people to replace enough of 1:49:03.400 --> 1:49:06.200 you that a hospital can maintain operations. And unless you're 1:49:06.280 --> 1:49:10.519 super organized like they were up in um Buffalo, uh 1:49:10.960 --> 1:49:14.599 with c W A like, and have a big network 1:49:14.640 --> 1:49:17.040 of people and you're ready to go to like you know, 1:49:17.680 --> 1:49:21.640 like picket board members houses and that sort of stuff. Um, 1:49:21.760 --> 1:49:23.960 those long term strikes can end and defeat where you 1:49:24.040 --> 1:49:27.080 end up with you know, you're all replaced with scabs, 1:49:27.160 --> 1:49:30.519 and and it sucks and it's happened, and then you 1:49:30.600 --> 1:49:32.240 gotta I guess you gotta learn from it, you know, 1:49:32.360 --> 1:49:36.760 like we've there was a famous strike in Minnesota with 1:49:38.240 --> 1:49:40.840 healthcare workers and they went out and they were out 1:49:40.880 --> 1:49:43.000 for months and months, and there are people on you know, 1:49:43.080 --> 1:49:45.080 going to the super kitchen to feed their kids and stuff, 1:49:45.120 --> 1:49:49.640 and they lost right. And so my union tends to 1:49:49.680 --> 1:49:51.680 do one day strikes, but instead of just being at 1:49:51.680 --> 1:49:55.280 one hospital, we organized multiple hospitals across the country so 1:49:55.320 --> 1:49:57.759 that it soaks up all the like the scat drives 1:49:57.800 --> 1:50:01.479 up right, scabs, and it really like that. I think 1:50:01.640 --> 1:50:05.479 ideas like intermittent strikes we're actually a really powerful tool. 1:50:05.560 --> 1:50:08.080 Back when you know, back when it was the c 1:50:08.200 --> 1:50:09.680 I oh, and it was like we're going to just 1:50:09.680 --> 1:50:12.680 stop working until you fix this problem. Um, And that's 1:50:12.680 --> 1:50:14.519 why they made them illegal. And it takes a lot 1:50:14.560 --> 1:50:16.040 of work to pull them off. But if you can't 1:50:16.040 --> 1:50:17.800 pull them off, that could be an effective way. And 1:50:17.840 --> 1:50:20.800 if you're not in a union, maybe getting people down 1:50:20.920 --> 1:50:23.759 for a one day like work stoppage at your work 1:50:23.960 --> 1:50:26.759 or even you know, maybe it's like we're not starting 1:50:26.760 --> 1:50:29.320 our shift, right. I've been in the room. I've been 1:50:29.320 --> 1:50:30.680 in the room where it's like, no, we're not going 1:50:30.760 --> 1:50:34.080 out to take that assignment until like we get our 1:50:34.120 --> 1:50:38.120 staff situation set up like fixed. And you know, sometimes 1:50:38.160 --> 1:50:43.960 it's just those collective actions are you know, it's not 1:50:44.040 --> 1:50:46.240 the end, Like there's no end. I'll be all one 1:50:46.280 --> 1:50:49.160 size fits all solution. Just be ready to kind of 1:50:49.200 --> 1:50:52.360 like explore what it means, get all the resources you can. 1:50:52.400 --> 1:50:55.680 There's groups like there's still like the Industrial Workers of 1:50:55.680 --> 1:50:59.240 the World, which has really good organizing trainings OT one 1:50:59.240 --> 1:51:02.200 on one one of too. I'll pitch that as a 1:51:02.240 --> 1:51:05.000 member of as a also a dual carding member of 1:51:05.000 --> 1:51:08.800 the i w w UM. But there's also Labor notes 1:51:09.160 --> 1:51:13.559 UM and other groups like Essential Workers Organizing Committee that's 1:51:13.560 --> 1:51:16.200 sort of things that like give you good like rundowns 1:51:16.200 --> 1:51:21.479 on how to do the organizing work. So just be careful, 1:51:21.680 --> 1:51:24.719 always be careful, to be aware that people are afraid. 1:51:25.000 --> 1:51:29.479 Bosses use fear um to scare you guys, to scare everybody, 1:51:29.520 --> 1:51:32.559 and like the the more people on board with a 1:51:32.600 --> 1:51:35.000 thing the less fear. Like it's amazing when you're running 1:51:35.040 --> 1:51:36.960 up into a strike and you're really firing on all 1:51:37.040 --> 1:51:39.680 cylinders and like everyone in your like work areas like 1:51:39.920 --> 1:51:42.200 we're getting together to take a picture, like getting ready 1:51:42.200 --> 1:51:44.800 to go on strike, and it's like literally, i mean 1:51:45.000 --> 1:51:47.280 when we went on strike, when our hospital went on strike, 1:51:47.320 --> 1:51:49.720 it was the first time where like there was like 1:51:50.560 --> 1:51:53.160 nurses on one places, the first time when all of 1:51:53.200 --> 1:51:57.120 us were in one place ever. And it's this massive, 1:51:57.320 --> 1:52:00.840 like coming together thing experience. It's and it's really hard 1:52:00.880 --> 1:52:03.719 to describe when you when because you know, we're always 1:52:04.240 --> 1:52:06.519 griping at each other about this or that thing's like, 1:52:06.640 --> 1:52:08.400 but when you're actually all out there together at the 1:52:08.439 --> 1:52:12.360 same time, when you pull it off, it's really amazing. Um. 1:52:12.400 --> 1:52:15.280 It's hard, it's it's hard to describe, um. But when 1:52:15.280 --> 1:52:18.360 you do it, it's like it's like the purest drug. 1:52:18.680 --> 1:52:21.479 And so I've I've heard some people who are union 1:52:21.520 --> 1:52:24.200 skeptical be like, well, you just experienced like the good ship, 1:52:24.320 --> 1:52:27.240 and like what about all the defeats, Like, well, get 1:52:27.240 --> 1:52:29.400 the little hits, get the little hits here and there, 1:52:29.439 --> 1:52:31.559 and get yourself to the point where you can do 1:52:31.600 --> 1:52:34.240 the big thing. You know, you're the whole thing is 1:52:34.280 --> 1:52:36.479 like getting people to do the thing is like the 1:52:37.000 --> 1:52:41.479 is it's like the perennial uh you know, curse of 1:52:41.560 --> 1:52:43.800 the left, can you do it? Or curse of you know, 1:52:43.840 --> 1:52:49.280 like the organizer activists or you know, whatever you wanna 1:52:49.280 --> 1:52:51.960 call it. You know, it's just but you know, if 1:52:51.960 --> 1:52:56.000 you don't do anything, nothing happens. You can all sit 1:52:56.000 --> 1:52:59.680 and complain and nothing changes. So you know, the only 1:52:59.720 --> 1:53:02.280 way to changes things just take those complaints and turn 1:53:02.320 --> 1:53:05.000 them into collective action. Yeah, I think I think that's 1:53:05.040 --> 1:53:07.000 that's that That that that that's that's a pretty good 1:53:07.040 --> 1:53:11.120 positive note to end on. Just go do thing. Go 1:53:11.240 --> 1:53:15.240 do the thing now. Stop tweet stop tweeting, stop tweeting 1:53:15.280 --> 1:53:21.160 about it, Go do the thing. Um yeah, I think 1:53:21.200 --> 1:53:23.760 that's I Like, I guess one last thing because I 1:53:23.760 --> 1:53:25.960 talked about social media and talk you know, I talked smack. 1:53:26.040 --> 1:53:28.120 I like, I've been off Twitter for some months now, 1:53:28.360 --> 1:53:31.559 is it really cleared my brain? But you know, um, 1:53:31.640 --> 1:53:36.439 being on finding the social media space where your your 1:53:36.479 --> 1:53:39.960 coworkers are at is really important and that might mean 1:53:40.000 --> 1:53:43.280 setting up like a discord or you know, what's app 1:53:43.479 --> 1:53:46.160 or a Facebook group you can set up secret Facebook 1:53:46.160 --> 1:53:48.800 groups that no one can see, and yeah, like you like, 1:53:48.880 --> 1:53:53.799 Facebook will periodically shut them down. But like our hospital 1:53:53.840 --> 1:53:56.000 has like a like a Facebook group with like two 1:53:56.040 --> 1:54:00.920 thousand nurses and we and that's where we really amped up. 1:54:01.479 --> 1:54:02.960 And it was a way for us to be talking 1:54:03.000 --> 1:54:06.479 with each other and talk each other through, um, the 1:54:06.600 --> 1:54:09.120 stress of setting up you know, this thing. And then 1:54:09.160 --> 1:54:13.600 also like you know, people workers can't organize like like 1:54:13.800 --> 1:54:17.720 people will do organizing even if like they don't have 1:54:17.840 --> 1:54:20.959 like that full support. So like some coworkers that coworkers, 1:54:21.000 --> 1:54:24.040 but members of my union went on strike at Coke 1:54:24.080 --> 1:54:27.400 County this year, and the whole thing was organized practically 1:54:27.439 --> 1:54:31.880 without like staff, right because the staff were barred from 1:54:32.000 --> 1:54:35.360 being in meetings, like in person meetings because of COVID 1:54:36.280 --> 1:54:38.360 and they couldn't go into the hospital because of COVID. 1:54:38.520 --> 1:54:42.840 So people were very pissed about how things have been 1:54:42.840 --> 1:54:45.760 going and they were talking to each other and we 1:54:45.960 --> 1:54:49.960 organized that strike. They organized that strike on their own practically, Um, 1:54:50.000 --> 1:54:53.200 you know, it lined up. They were off there. You know, 1:54:53.400 --> 1:54:56.200 they didn't have that no strike clause like operating at 1:54:56.200 --> 1:54:59.360 the time, and um, and they pulled off like a 1:54:59.560 --> 1:55:03.400 pretty like a significant victory UM from there one day 1:55:03.440 --> 1:55:06.560 strike and it really um really you know, like got 1:55:06.640 --> 1:55:09.960 them some big wins. But and they didn't they didn't 1:55:09.960 --> 1:55:12.160 need the union to do it for them. You know, 1:55:12.200 --> 1:55:15.280 the union was kind of like a facilitation tool rather 1:55:15.360 --> 1:55:17.200 than like the thing that got it done. I think 1:55:17.200 --> 1:55:18.600 that's the other thing is that there are people who 1:55:18.640 --> 1:55:21.480 think that like it's all dependent on like having like 1:55:21.520 --> 1:55:25.760 this hero staffer sort of thing situation, and at the 1:55:25.840 --> 1:55:27.720 end of the day, like if it's not the workers 1:55:27.720 --> 1:55:31.920 doing it themselves, nothing's going to happen. Yeah, yeah, right, 1:55:32.680 --> 1:55:36.080 the power. The power is with the working class itself, 1:55:36.120 --> 1:55:38.720 and if the working class doesn't use it, nothing will 1:55:38.720 --> 1:55:41.480 ever happen. Yeah, but if it does use it, I 1:55:41.520 --> 1:55:47.920 will trail off here. It sounds good. So, John, is 1:55:47.920 --> 1:55:50.360 is there any place that you want people to find 1:55:50.480 --> 1:55:56.000 things that you do? Like? Yea, I used to be 1:55:56.080 --> 1:56:02.800 on Twitter. Um periodically will show up on uh varn vlog, 1:56:03.000 --> 1:56:09.120 which is uh see Derek Varnes vlog on YouTube. Um 1:56:09.200 --> 1:56:14.720 there's I recommend people UH listen to. There's a group 1:56:14.720 --> 1:56:18.560 of podcasts called the Emancipatient Network. I really like their stuff, 1:56:18.640 --> 1:56:24.640 specially UM. There's a what's it called General Intellect Unit, 1:56:24.640 --> 1:56:28.640 which talks about like cybernetics and the left. UM. They 1:56:28.680 --> 1:56:31.320 have a lot of particularly cool stuff that's just come 1:56:31.320 --> 1:56:34.560 out recently about UM, about strategy that I think is 1:56:34.600 --> 1:56:38.440 really important for everyone to understand. UM. I was a 1:56:38.440 --> 1:56:42.640 founding member of the UH Libertarian Socialist Caucus at d 1:56:42.760 --> 1:56:44.400 s A. But I'm no longer in d s A. 1:56:45.400 --> 1:56:47.800 There's a but that group is still kind of kicking around. 1:56:47.800 --> 1:56:52.200 We're coming up with new things. Uh. Then then I guess, like, um, 1:56:52.360 --> 1:56:55.560 the University of Chicago Labor Council is a group that 1:56:55.640 --> 1:56:59.360 I spend a lot of time with. And there's also 1:56:59.360 --> 1:57:01.320 a tennency unit at Highe Park with Loan, which is 1:57:01.400 --> 1:57:07.320 a tenant union that you helped set up. And to hell. Yeah, 1:57:07.560 --> 1:57:11.000 so you know, um, go out there and you know, 1:57:11.480 --> 1:57:14.080 don't don't listen to me or don't try and find 1:57:14.200 --> 1:57:16.920 follow me. Go like you go figure it out and 1:57:16.920 --> 1:57:19.600 you're our neighborhood and ye, and set up a mill, 1:57:19.760 --> 1:57:22.280 set up a million different you know, like labor councils 1:57:22.320 --> 1:57:27.240 and worker committees and tenant unions that yeah, like build 1:57:27.400 --> 1:57:30.720 build power. That's why I think I sometimes we are 1:57:30.720 --> 1:57:33.040 afraid of the term power. I think that power is 1:57:33.080 --> 1:57:36.120 that it's best when it's everybody. And so I guess 1:57:36.120 --> 1:57:38.440 I might say it's like, go out there and build 1:57:38.480 --> 1:57:44.000 community and worker power and um, don't be afraid because 1:57:44.640 --> 1:57:46.960 fear is the one thing that they've got to wave 1:57:47.000 --> 1:57:50.400 over our heads. And sometimes you just got to take 1:57:50.440 --> 1:57:53.360 that jump and do the thing. And uh and that's 1:57:53.360 --> 1:57:56.200 how we're hopefully going to win one day save the world. 1:57:57.160 --> 1:58:00.360 And you can do this just like all of these things, 1:58:00.400 --> 1:58:03.879 everything we've been talking about for the past like two hours, 1:58:04.520 --> 1:58:07.600 these were all just done by ordinary people. Like there's 1:58:07.600 --> 1:58:09.800 just there's there's it's all. It's all done by random people. 1:58:09.840 --> 1:58:13.080 And you know that random person can be you. You 1:58:13.160 --> 1:58:18.680 just have to go and do go to the thing. Yeah. 1:58:18.840 --> 1:58:22.400 So yeah, this that this has been it could happen here. 1:58:22.920 --> 1:58:25.400 You can find us on Twitter at Happened Here pod 1:58:25.480 --> 1:58:30.280 and also on Instagram there and uh yeah there's other 1:58:30.320 --> 1:58:33.880 cool zone stuff. Oh I guess yeah, well there's there's 1:58:33.880 --> 1:58:36.280 there's a new show called Mega Corp. That that we 1:58:36.360 --> 1:58:39.240 have that's about how corporations are bad, and the first 1:58:39.280 --> 1:58:43.040 seasons about Amazon. It's out now. Okay, he just doesn't 1:58:43.120 --> 1:58:46.080 have a Twitter, but Yeah, it's it's called Mega Corp. 1:58:46.120 --> 1:58:52.560 And you can find it wherever fine podcasts are distributed. Yes, okay, bye, 1:59:10.640 --> 1:59:15.360 m welcome everybody too. It could happen here. Um podcast 1:59:15.480 --> 1:59:18.040 about I don't know, how things are kind of kind 1:59:18.080 --> 1:59:20.720 of kind of crumbling and how we can maybe put it, 1:59:20.720 --> 1:59:24.040 put stuff, put stuff back together. And today I am 1:59:24.040 --> 1:59:28.200 excited to talk with a senior let's see what is 1:59:28.360 --> 1:59:30.720 what is what? What is the actual? What's actual term? 1:59:30.760 --> 1:59:40.280 I saw it A senior programs strategist at Wikimedia, Alex Stinson. Hello, greetings, Hi, 1:59:40.560 --> 1:59:43.280 it's so good to be here. I'm very excited about 1:59:43.280 --> 1:59:45.840 our talk today because I mean, this should this should 1:59:45.920 --> 1:59:49.480 surprise nobody that I used to I used to be 1:59:49.560 --> 1:59:53.520 a Wikipedia editor back in the day. Not not shocking 1:59:53.560 --> 1:59:57.200 at all, if if if you know me. Um, but yeah, 1:59:57.280 --> 2:00:00.960 we're gonna be talking about what kind of Wikipedia just itself, 2:00:01.040 --> 2:00:05.560 and then also climate misinformation and disinformation and how we 2:00:05.600 --> 2:00:09.400 can maybe create a better understanding of climate change in 2:00:09.440 --> 2:00:12.120 its effects across kind of the world and how digital 2:00:12.160 --> 2:00:14.680 information works. Those are all kind of topics we talk 2:00:14.760 --> 2:00:19.880 about often enough, but never within the actual context of 2:00:19.920 --> 2:00:23.320 like Wikipedia as an entity. Um, so I guess let's 2:00:23.360 --> 2:00:26.160 let's just start there with with Wikipedia. And like for 2:00:26.200 --> 2:00:28.760 those who don't, maybe maybe people like use website, but 2:00:28.800 --> 2:00:30.280 they're not quite sure what it is. Like how how 2:00:30.320 --> 2:00:33.120 do you actually describe what Wikipedia is? Because it is 2:00:33.160 --> 2:00:38.320 like an interesting kind of amorphous entity. It's so many things. Um, 2:00:38.400 --> 2:00:41.520 I think most people are used to thinking about Wikipedia 2:00:41.560 --> 2:00:44.000 is like the fact checking device. Like I have a 2:00:44.000 --> 2:00:46.360 bar argument with my friends and I pull out my 2:00:46.440 --> 2:00:51.400 phone and yeah, yeah website at me. Right, Um, it's 2:00:51.400 --> 2:00:55.760 a lot of things. It's three language Wikipedia's. Actually it's 2:00:55.760 --> 2:00:58.640 not just one. Each of these communities has its own 2:00:58.760 --> 2:01:02.919 editorial community. Um. At last I checked, it's like sixty 2:01:02.960 --> 2:01:06.600 million articles across the languages. It's it's really it's a 2:01:06.680 --> 2:01:10.040 lot of different content. Um. And a topic can be 2:01:10.160 --> 2:01:13.280 on each of those Wikipedia's right. Um. And this is 2:01:13.520 --> 2:01:16.240 important as we start talking about disinformation. Is like each 2:01:16.280 --> 2:01:19.560 Wikipedia because it's edited by people in that language, and 2:01:19.640 --> 2:01:23.520 it's written by that language community. Um. You know each 2:01:23.640 --> 2:01:27.800 article is different and have different perspectives. Um. Two d 2:01:28.040 --> 2:01:32.080 eighty thousand volunteers editing every month. Uh so this is 2:01:32.120 --> 2:01:35.480 a lot of people, right, But the bulk of that's 2:01:35.520 --> 2:01:39.480 happening on English, Wikipedia, and some of the larger languages 2:01:39.560 --> 2:01:43.080 that are spoken across multiple cultural context And then there's 2:01:43.080 --> 2:01:46.520 also a lot of other content sitting behind Wikipedia. So 2:01:46.560 --> 2:01:50.520 there's a media repository, um. And there's a we called 2:01:50.520 --> 2:01:55.760 Wikimedia Commons, and there's a database called wiki Data, which 2:01:55.840 --> 2:01:58.440 kind of powers those little knowledge graphs on the right 2:01:58.480 --> 2:02:01.080 side of Google and a whole bunch of other parts 2:02:01.120 --> 2:02:05.280 of the Internet. Wiki data shows up in Amazon, Alexa 2:02:05.360 --> 2:02:08.200 and all kinds of other places, right and and so 2:02:08.320 --> 2:02:12.080 it's it's we're not just like one website. It's many websites, 2:02:12.360 --> 2:02:16.600 lots of knowledge, lots of platforms, lots of context. Um. 2:02:16.840 --> 2:02:20.000 And we'll come back to that the more as we talked. Yeah, 2:02:20.000 --> 2:02:21.920 what really interesting part of it is like I don't 2:02:21.920 --> 2:02:27.280 know my my personal kind of social leanings. I generally 2:02:27.320 --> 2:02:32.000 kind of like things that are more decentralized in general. Um. 2:02:32.200 --> 2:02:34.720 Other other hosts in the podcast are generally kind of 2:02:35.280 --> 2:02:40.200 on like the progressive left libertarian spectrum. Um. And one 2:02:40.200 --> 2:02:43.840 thing I do really appreciate about Wikipedia is is it's 2:02:43.840 --> 2:02:46.360 more like it's It's not I I don't think it's 2:02:46.360 --> 2:02:51.520 like open source, but it's the way it has decentralized 2:02:51.600 --> 2:02:53.840 editing and all that kind of stuff. It's just a 2:02:53.880 --> 2:02:56.520 really interesting model of of like what if a lot 2:02:56.520 --> 2:02:59.320 more stuff worked this way? And I'm not sure like 2:02:59.360 --> 2:03:01.680 how how much like a decentralization focus is there, like 2:03:01.720 --> 2:03:05.320 consciously at people at the foundation and people who try 2:03:05.360 --> 2:03:08.680 to like actually like run it behind the scenes and stuff. Yeah. 2:03:08.760 --> 2:03:11.960 So Wikipedia grows out of the like open source movement 2:03:12.120 --> 2:03:14.160 and the kind of early days of the Internet. Right, 2:03:14.200 --> 2:03:16.960 this idea that like knowledge wants to be free, technology 2:03:17.000 --> 2:03:19.640 wants to be free, software wants to be free. Um, 2:03:19.760 --> 2:03:23.440 let's let's use the legal infrastructure to like create freedom, 2:03:23.640 --> 2:03:26.480 right uh in that sense. And then there's also the 2:03:26.560 --> 2:03:29.200 free as in like anyone can edit, and then the 2:03:29.320 --> 2:03:31.600 free to like do whatever you want out there in 2:03:31.640 --> 2:03:34.600 the world. Um. There there's people are like free as 2:03:34.680 --> 2:03:37.640 in beer and free as in speech, right uh, and 2:03:38.000 --> 2:03:41.080 those things are those things are also there's they're always 2:03:41.080 --> 2:03:43.480 intention uh and they're kind of working. And as you 2:03:43.520 --> 2:03:46.000 can imagine, especially when you get outside of kind of 2:03:46.080 --> 2:03:51.879 multicultural Internet spaces like English Wikipedia, um, it can get challenging. 2:03:51.960 --> 2:03:55.839 Like if you're in Croatia and everyone is speaking Croatian, 2:03:56.200 --> 2:03:58.760 there's a very small bubble in which to create that 2:03:58.800 --> 2:04:03.040 Wikipedia right, um. And so it's interesting in that sense. Um. 2:04:03.080 --> 2:04:06.480 I think there's also another part of Wikipedia that a 2:04:06.520 --> 2:04:09.040 lot of people don't see, which is the movement behind it. 2:04:09.120 --> 2:04:12.760 So there's the editorial communities. People show up and make edits. Um. 2:04:12.800 --> 2:04:15.320 But because there's this ideology that you're talking about, this 2:04:15.400 --> 2:04:18.400 like decentralized, like we need to share knowledge or culture 2:04:18.440 --> 2:04:22.000 or language on the Internet, there's also a whole social 2:04:22.360 --> 2:04:26.120 movement sitting behind the scenes. Uh. And there there's a 2:04:26.120 --> 2:04:30.480 podcast recently dot com The Wikipedia Story that kind of 2:04:30.560 --> 2:04:34.280 captured that the essence of that, um. And it's it's 2:04:34.320 --> 2:04:37.160 a lot of people like myself, So I started editing 2:04:37.680 --> 2:04:42.800 in high school. Yeah, yeah, one of those like, oh 2:04:42.840 --> 2:04:44.840 I know how to click the edit button and I 2:04:44.880 --> 2:04:46.760 figure out how to use the Internet and that kind 2:04:46.760 --> 2:04:49.720 of thing. But there's a lot of people that like 2:04:49.920 --> 2:04:52.760 the intuitiveness of clicking and edit button on a piece 2:04:52.800 --> 2:04:56.520 of open source software to create content is just not 2:04:56.840 --> 2:04:58.879 It's not clear, right, And so you have to organize 2:04:58.920 --> 2:05:01.320 and invite people in. And so we have a whole 2:05:01.360 --> 2:05:04.320 movement that does that too. That there's about a hundred 2:05:05.360 --> 2:05:09.600 organizations around the world that we organize events, work with 2:05:10.040 --> 2:05:14.880 libraries and museums and educational institutions, and so there's always 2:05:14.920 --> 2:05:19.040 this um kind of interesting dynamic where our values, which 2:05:19.080 --> 2:05:23.160 is this like open software platform stuff has also lived 2:05:23.280 --> 2:05:26.480 in our practice, in our outreach, like creating change through 2:05:26.560 --> 2:05:30.760 society by sharing knowledge and education. Um. And so I think, yeah, 2:05:30.920 --> 2:05:34.320 it's it's it's an interesting it's an interesting dynamic. Yeah. 2:05:34.360 --> 2:05:38.720 I think that does create a really oftentimes beautiful reflection. 2:05:38.840 --> 2:05:40.240 It could it can have some dark sides different once 2:05:40.280 --> 2:05:42.360 in a while, but it is it is really nice 2:05:42.360 --> 2:05:45.040 to have like kind of the ideology driving it being 2:05:45.080 --> 2:05:47.920 reflected in the actions of operating it and spreading it 2:05:47.920 --> 2:05:50.600 and that kind of thing. Um. So this is something 2:05:50.640 --> 2:05:53.680 we kind of briefly touched on already, but I think 2:05:53.720 --> 2:05:56.320 I'd like to move on to kind of why, like 2:05:56.480 --> 2:06:02.280 how climate change in broader like social issues are covered 2:06:02.320 --> 2:06:06.000 on Wikipedia, because you already mentioned like it's kind because 2:06:06.000 --> 2:06:09.120 there's not a Wikipedia, there's many based on different languages 2:06:09.120 --> 2:06:12.280 in places. It feels like to me, whenever social issues 2:06:12.360 --> 2:06:14.320 kind of get covered on Wikipedia, it's going to be 2:06:14.320 --> 2:06:16.960 in some part like a local reflection of whatever is 2:06:17.000 --> 2:06:19.760 in that area. You know, if if there's like a 2:06:19.800 --> 2:06:23.400 white liberal writing articles in New York, it's gonna be 2:06:23.400 --> 2:06:27.200 different than someone you know, halfway across the world writing 2:06:27.240 --> 2:06:30.160 them in you know, a much smaller country, let's say, 2:06:30.200 --> 2:06:33.240 like Belarus, who's under like what I would call a dictatorship. 2:06:33.640 --> 2:06:36.840 Um so that's gonna change kind of the nature of 2:06:36.920 --> 2:06:40.280 what people are making because of that kind of divide. 2:06:40.520 --> 2:06:43.120 So how how does that kind of crop up and 2:06:43.760 --> 2:06:46.920 is there any like solutions to that or because because 2:06:46.960 --> 2:06:49.320 the because of the decentralized thing, it's like, how much 2:06:49.320 --> 2:06:53.320 can we like impose like who like I'm I'm, I'm 2:06:53.360 --> 2:06:55.520 I'm not in Belarus? How much can I impose what 2:06:55.680 --> 2:06:59.800 I want their Wikipedia to look like? Yeah, there's kind 2:06:59.800 --> 2:07:03.000 of two or three dynamics you're you're touching on here. 2:07:03.120 --> 2:07:07.160 The first is because there's kind of an intention bias, 2:07:07.200 --> 2:07:10.680 Like something comes up in the news, and our Wikipedia community, 2:07:10.800 --> 2:07:14.360 like people are within minutes of breaking news stories are 2:07:14.440 --> 2:07:17.640 usually like editing the page, working to improve it. Right. 2:07:18.080 --> 2:07:20.560 Um So if things show up in the you know, 2:07:20.880 --> 2:07:25.960 European American press, it's very likely, especially something like English 2:07:25.960 --> 2:07:28.560 Wikipedia will pick up on it and immediately cover it. 2:07:28.760 --> 2:07:33.520 And because there are multiple perspectives in those press usually um, 2:07:33.640 --> 2:07:38.520 kind of the ideological uh kind of multi sided nice 2:07:38.680 --> 2:07:41.160 like works itself out because there's a lot of eyes 2:07:41.280 --> 2:07:43.800 and a lot of people who know how to edit there, right, 2:07:44.440 --> 2:07:50.680 um on in a kind of cultural linguistic geographic context 2:07:50.720 --> 2:07:53.680 where there's like one set of stories and there's not 2:07:53.760 --> 2:07:57.320 a lot of diversity. Um uh, this this happens. And 2:07:57.320 --> 2:07:59.880 and I'm going to refer to the creation Wikipedia because 2:07:59.880 --> 2:08:03.400 we we actually had an external researcher look at Croatian 2:08:03.400 --> 2:08:06.839 Wikipedia because part of it has been kind of caught 2:08:06.920 --> 2:08:10.640 by by folks with kind of very ideological leanings in 2:08:10.680 --> 2:08:13.600 a way that's excluding others. And this is not good, right. 2:08:13.840 --> 2:08:17.120 It creates a very one sided information environment and it 2:08:17.160 --> 2:08:22.000 really reflects um, kind of the news dynamic going on there. 2:08:22.280 --> 2:08:25.000 So when like breaking news happens, or when a topic 2:08:25.040 --> 2:08:27.960 like a social issue or not neces like climate change 2:08:28.000 --> 2:08:30.120 is not a social issue, right, this is a global 2:08:30.600 --> 2:08:36.720 like life threatening issue. Um. When when something becomes politicized, 2:08:36.840 --> 2:08:40.240 it's very easy for especially in smaller language wikipedias, for 2:08:40.400 --> 2:08:46.880 few people to kind of swing the whole perspective on that. Um. So, yeah, 2:08:46.960 --> 2:08:49.720 there's this breaking news issue and this is where are 2:08:49.840 --> 2:08:53.520 kind of organized communities are really important. So the example 2:08:53.560 --> 2:08:56.600 we when I point out of this working well UM 2:08:56.680 --> 2:08:59.720 is in medicine. So are our medical community during the 2:09:00.000 --> 2:09:04.200 all the outbreaks a few years back, UM in West Africa, 2:09:04.520 --> 2:09:09.200 we're able to organize both on English and then languages 2:09:09.240 --> 2:09:13.080 that were accessible for local communities, high quality coverage of 2:09:13.080 --> 2:09:16.960 the medical content because it's like has impact on people's lives, 2:09:17.080 --> 2:09:20.720 and so they recruited translators. They thought about, like what's 2:09:20.720 --> 2:09:24.680 a simple way to communicate the story UM in that context, 2:09:24.800 --> 2:09:28.960 and like what do the workers, the or the advocates 2:09:29.080 --> 2:09:32.000 or whoever on the ground who's working with that crisis, 2:09:32.600 --> 2:09:35.720 what knowledge do they need? Right? UM? And you see 2:09:35.840 --> 2:09:40.040 like other open technology movements do stuff like this, like 2:09:40.160 --> 2:09:43.920 humanitarian Open Streetmap has a similar kind of way of organizing. 2:09:43.960 --> 2:09:48.160 They're like, hey, there's a crisis happening, UM, let's pull 2:09:48.240 --> 2:09:50.600 people together from different parts of the world who have 2:09:50.720 --> 2:09:55.480 the right knowledge or skills and like address the knowledge gap. UM, 2:09:55.680 --> 2:09:59.360 so so you can solve it. It's just it's complicated. UM. 2:09:59.520 --> 2:10:02.120 And you know, we've been trying to address as a 2:10:02.160 --> 2:10:05.080 movement what we call the gender gap. So there's both 2:10:05.120 --> 2:10:09.720 less women editors as women's content on many of the wikis, 2:10:09.800 --> 2:10:13.880 and like, it's taken years, and it's very hard to organize, 2:10:14.440 --> 2:10:18.240 and even when there's investment in it, um, it's it's 2:10:18.360 --> 2:10:22.600 challenging to make substantial progress because there might be contextual 2:10:22.600 --> 2:10:25.440 issues around it too. And so you can't just like 2:10:26.080 --> 2:10:30.640 drop in on a Central Asian language with a like 2:10:30.800 --> 2:10:34.760 Western perspective and expect to like change the culture of 2:10:34.760 --> 2:10:37.720 the wiki overnight. You have to engage with it consistently 2:10:38.040 --> 2:10:40.880 and be persistent and work on it over and over 2:10:40.920 --> 2:10:43.480 and over again. We are going to take a short 2:10:43.520 --> 2:10:47.840 break to hear a message from our lovely lovely advertisers 2:10:47.880 --> 2:10:53.120 unless it's exomobile again, but we will be back shortly, Okay, 2:10:53.200 --> 2:10:56.640 and we're back. Um. One one thing that we cover 2:10:57.760 --> 2:11:02.040 decently part of my job and and and Robert Evans 2:11:02.200 --> 2:11:05.840 job is disinformation and misinformation and how that type of 2:11:05.840 --> 2:11:10.440 stuff spreads online, um, particularly you usually kind of linked 2:11:10.480 --> 2:11:13.920 to like political extremism um or conspiracy theories or you know, 2:11:14.200 --> 2:11:18.480 in that general kind of bubble um. And so, what 2:11:18.480 --> 2:11:22.760 what type of kind of climate misinformation has really been 2:11:23.160 --> 2:11:27.160 festering on various you know wikipedias across the world really 2:11:27.160 --> 2:11:28.600 because like we were just were talking about like these 2:11:28.640 --> 2:11:31.000 topics and how and how and like why it happens, 2:11:31.000 --> 2:11:33.720 but like what are the main types of misinformation or 2:11:33.800 --> 2:11:38.960 disinformation that is much more like prevalent. Yeah. Um, so 2:11:39.040 --> 2:11:43.760 the first is just kind of neglect of uh, content 2:11:44.200 --> 2:11:47.960 that's happening across the various things related to climate. Um. 2:11:48.000 --> 2:11:51.400 But we've identified on English Wikipedia over three thousand, seven 2:11:51.480 --> 2:11:56.080 hundred articles that are directly related to climate change. Uh. 2:11:56.240 --> 2:11:59.640 We don't have a very big editorial community in English 2:11:59.760 --> 2:12:02.919 on that topic. That's like interesting fluent in the science 2:12:03.080 --> 2:12:05.000 and fluent and the other stuff. And then you go 2:12:05.000 --> 2:12:07.960 out to the other languages and like some of the 2:12:08.040 --> 2:12:11.280 languages have like three thousand of them, some of them 2:12:11.320 --> 2:12:15.400 have like two hundred, right, um, And so there is 2:12:15.960 --> 2:12:19.400 both um and some of that content was like translated 2:12:19.440 --> 2:12:22.200 several years ago, right or five or ten years ago, 2:12:22.240 --> 2:12:24.960 and yeah, you know, and like the climate rhetoric has 2:12:25.080 --> 2:12:29.400 really changed it and like numbers and statistics all that 2:12:29.400 --> 2:12:31.720 stuff gets updated every year, and it's yeah, that is 2:12:31.760 --> 2:12:33.720 there is there's there's a lot to cap with and 2:12:33.800 --> 2:12:37.120 like reading the IPCC report or looking at any of 2:12:37.120 --> 2:12:40.040 the consensus science, there's like a lot of change that 2:12:40.080 --> 2:12:43.600 you have to be influent in, like science communication, you 2:12:43.640 --> 2:12:46.920 have to understand like where to look for the information. Um. 2:12:47.160 --> 2:12:50.960 And it's interesting. My partner is a Spanish language speaker 2:12:51.280 --> 2:12:54.760 and she was in a kind of workshop for journalists 2:12:55.120 --> 2:13:00.760 in Argentina for climate communication, and the work shop is like, oh, 2:13:00.920 --> 2:13:04.960 you should cite the Guardian, right, so even as to 2:13:04.960 --> 2:13:07.520 to kind of understand this climate stuff. So a lot 2:13:07.600 --> 2:13:11.280 of these local language contexts, there aren't even good sources, 2:13:11.640 --> 2:13:14.320 and the sources they do have are often citing like 2:13:14.560 --> 2:13:17.920 the dominant narrative that's going on and like the anglophone 2:13:17.920 --> 2:13:21.680 news cycle, right, because there's not a lot of climate 2:13:21.680 --> 2:13:24.320 communication going on, and so there's just a lot of 2:13:24.440 --> 2:13:29.880 complexity involved in updating that much content all the time. Um. 2:13:29.960 --> 2:13:32.560 And so the bulk of the stuff that kind of 2:13:32.560 --> 2:13:35.440 creeps in is like this neglect, right. It's like some 2:13:35.720 --> 2:13:39.240 dominant idea in the narrative just hasn't been updated and 2:13:39.320 --> 2:13:41.760 like we need someone to update it. Um. And that's 2:13:41.800 --> 2:13:45.200 like an organizing problem, right, that's uh, like we need 2:13:45.240 --> 2:13:48.080 more people who are science literate, who speak the local language, 2:13:48.160 --> 2:13:51.240 who understand how to edit Wikipedia. Um. And that's trainable, 2:13:51.360 --> 2:13:54.160 like we can do that. Yeah. The reason that matters, 2:13:54.280 --> 2:13:57.400 the neglect matters is it stops people from making decisions 2:13:57.440 --> 2:14:01.080 about climate change because they don't have like an accurate 2:14:01.160 --> 2:14:04.400 sense of what we need to do, right, which is 2:14:04.880 --> 2:14:09.920 cut the false fuels, increase increased resilience, do adaptation like 2:14:10.720 --> 2:14:15.560 actual political change, right. Um. And so so that that's 2:14:15.680 --> 2:14:18.720 just it's a problem. Um. The other stuff is a 2:14:18.760 --> 2:14:22.760 bit more it's a little bit more complicated. Um. One 2:14:22.800 --> 2:14:27.400 of the things that happens is that, as you know, 2:14:27.640 --> 2:14:31.680 there's quite a manipulation of narrative that has happened around 2:14:31.760 --> 2:14:35.960 climate change. There's this really great podcast by Amy Westervelt 2:14:36.760 --> 2:14:40.720 about how the fossil fuel industry like got its message 2:14:40.800 --> 2:14:43.520 into schools in the last three years in the US, 2:14:44.000 --> 2:14:47.240 and like that narrative is just so prevalent. And so 2:14:47.360 --> 2:14:50.520 one of the things about wikipedias that we try to 2:14:50.560 --> 2:14:56.480 do a balance of positions. If there are reputable sources 2:14:56.800 --> 2:14:59.920 kind of describing or analyzing a topic, and this is 2:15:00.360 --> 2:15:05.360 back to your polarization question too. If they're reputable sources 2:15:05.520 --> 2:15:07.760 describing on topic, we try to give them equal weight 2:15:08.120 --> 2:15:12.600 and balance across the article. The problem with climate is 2:15:12.640 --> 2:15:16.840 that some of the narratives that look like reputable sources 2:15:16.880 --> 2:15:21.920 are just pumped out of fossil fuel industry funded sink tanks, right, 2:15:22.400 --> 2:15:26.400 and these things are not truthful narratives, right. Um. And 2:15:26.520 --> 2:15:30.560 so the BBC ran an article, uh two weeks ago 2:15:31.400 --> 2:15:34.560 on kind of climate denial and some of these smaller languages, 2:15:35.480 --> 2:15:39.920 a smaller language Wikipedias, and what they found was a 2:15:39.960 --> 2:15:43.240 lot of these narratives being given equal weight with the 2:15:43.280 --> 2:15:47.720 climate science. Um. And I took a look our community 2:15:47.800 --> 2:15:51.280 after that BBC article came out, started looking across all 2:15:51.320 --> 2:15:54.839 the language Wikipedia articles about just the main climate change page, 2:15:55.240 --> 2:15:59.840 and they found thirty one Wikipedia's that had some of 2:16:00.040 --> 2:16:06.360 that like equal weight of bad climate science. Interesting, yeah, um. 2:16:06.440 --> 2:16:09.360 And you know the BBC article only found like five 2:16:09.440 --> 2:16:11.960 or ten, right, We found another lot a lot more 2:16:12.080 --> 2:16:14.960 yeah yeah yeah. And so it's it's like a it's 2:16:15.000 --> 2:16:20.200 a really like these narratives just seep in and you know, again, 2:16:20.240 --> 2:16:24.120 I'm gonna go back to the Croatian example, like if 2:16:24.280 --> 2:16:28.560 your media environment has been locked down by a certain 2:16:28.600 --> 2:16:33.320 political rhetoric, too, those narratives might have traveled from like 2:16:33.360 --> 2:16:40.120 the Anglo sphere into these other spaces and then gotten stuck, right, 2:16:40.200 --> 2:16:43.240 and it's just like keeps getting recycled and so that 2:16:43.360 --> 2:16:47.880 causes delay. UM. And I was listening to your podcasts 2:16:48.040 --> 2:16:53.480 recently about soft climate denial, Like this is what's happening 2:16:53.520 --> 2:16:58.599 in other language environments, right, is people are rehearsing this misinformation. 2:16:59.400 --> 2:17:03.800 It's seems like a valid position because it's been rehearsed 2:17:03.920 --> 2:17:07.480 so many times by by folks. Some people who are 2:17:07.600 --> 2:17:12.680 championing that position are like doing so unknowingly, and then 2:17:12.680 --> 2:17:15.920 the process, we're kind of disconnecting it entirely from the 2:17:16.080 --> 2:17:19.400 source of the information, and that is just it's it's 2:17:19.560 --> 2:17:24.800 really bad. One interesting thing that I thought of when 2:17:24.800 --> 2:17:27.720 you were bringing up like sourcing, how sourcing itself coming 2:17:27.720 --> 2:17:29.959 an issue in like in the States. There's kind of 2:17:30.000 --> 2:17:33.160 like a joke that like wicked like when people use 2:17:33.280 --> 2:17:35.840 just Wikipedia as like as a source to be like 2:17:36.160 --> 2:17:38.480 they just they just link the article. But like that 2:17:38.600 --> 2:17:40.560 is the default for so many people when they begin 2:17:40.840 --> 2:17:43.199 begin a research project is like, Okay, what's the what's 2:17:43.200 --> 2:17:45.400 the what is what does Wikipedia have on it? What's 2:17:45.440 --> 2:17:49.160 the sources Wikipedia uses? Um and kind of branch off 2:17:49.280 --> 2:17:51.880 from there. It's a very common thing. So I'm not 2:17:51.920 --> 2:17:54.320 sure what like how different Internet culture will be different 2:17:54.360 --> 2:17:58.240 in in other countries. But if they do not, if 2:17:58.240 --> 2:18:01.560 they if they don't have like the bas sourcing necessary 2:18:01.600 --> 2:18:05.640 to create like a decent home page article, than just 2:18:05.760 --> 2:18:08.480 sourcing from Wikipedia in the first place becomes so much harder. 2:18:08.920 --> 2:18:11.880 Um because you like you were saying, like just use 2:18:11.920 --> 2:18:14.600 the Guardian is is like one of the things, like 2:18:14.800 --> 2:18:17.000 that's not horrible advice, But if it's only just from 2:18:17.080 --> 2:18:19.400 one thing, then that that's going to change the entire 2:18:19.480 --> 2:18:24.480 nature of like coverage and information on specific topics. Yeah. Yeah, 2:18:24.560 --> 2:18:26.560 I've had just be really interesting kind of thing that 2:18:26.640 --> 2:18:30.599 I never thought of before is how different countries wikipedias 2:18:30.720 --> 2:18:34.280 or like language with Wikipedia's will have will have like 2:18:34.360 --> 2:18:38.680 different sources. So then getting information from from the page 2:18:38.720 --> 2:18:41.640 it's just going to be so different. And like yeah, 2:18:41.680 --> 2:18:44.320 like like the whole, like the whole like teared of 2:18:44.360 --> 2:18:48.240 sourcing is just completely changed. Yeah. And and I think, 2:18:48.280 --> 2:18:52.440 like you know, in medicine and most medical practitioners expect 2:18:52.720 --> 2:18:55.000 most of the medical literature to be in a handful 2:18:55.000 --> 2:18:58.080 of languages like English and Chinese and that kind of stuff, right, 2:18:58.120 --> 2:19:01.400 and like part of your professional work and part of 2:19:01.520 --> 2:19:04.800 like saving people's lives is being able to use those sources. 2:19:04.840 --> 2:19:08.240 And so if a medical Wikipedia article has a translation 2:19:08.360 --> 2:19:12.520 from like an English article into another language, and you're 2:19:12.520 --> 2:19:16.080 distributing that to medical practitioners and they find the citation 2:19:16.320 --> 2:19:18.520 and it's in English and they can go follow the source, 2:19:18.840 --> 2:19:21.400 like that's not such a big deal. But with in 2:19:21.440 --> 2:19:25.800 a topic like climate UM, where the vast majority of 2:19:25.800 --> 2:19:28.560 the people that have to make decisions on this information 2:19:29.120 --> 2:19:32.160 do not have access to other languages. Maybe their access 2:19:32.200 --> 2:19:36.400 to English is through like machine translation, Google or something 2:19:36.520 --> 2:19:39.879 like that. Like having not having sources in your local 2:19:39.920 --> 2:19:44.920 language UM, or just having the sources that were translated 2:19:44.959 --> 2:19:47.680 from an English Wikipedia article, which happens a lot on 2:19:47.800 --> 2:19:52.800 these smaller language wikipedias, is kind of like not helpful 2:19:53.040 --> 2:19:56.600 for climate decision making UM. And this is where it's 2:19:56.840 --> 2:19:59.720 UM and it's easy for example, and a lot of 2:19:59.760 --> 2:20:03.880 these like Eastern European languages or Central Asian UH languages 2:20:04.240 --> 2:20:10.480 for like a politically spun news site opinion about something 2:20:10.680 --> 2:20:13.959 to kind of creep in at the same level of 2:20:13.959 --> 2:20:19.960 of kind of UH validity as as another as scientific 2:20:20.000 --> 2:20:24.000 research as the the you know, consensus understanding of the 2:20:24.040 --> 2:20:27.960 climate prices. So how how might I know we talked 2:20:27.959 --> 2:20:31.200 about like like trainings for like journalists and people to 2:20:31.280 --> 2:20:34.360 start editing Wikipedia's in their language. But like, how how 2:20:34.400 --> 2:20:37.920 do we kind of improve climate communication overall with open 2:20:37.959 --> 2:20:41.720 access to information and you know, creating more linguistic um 2:20:42.000 --> 2:20:46.000 diversity and stuff. Yeah, well, I think there's like a 2:20:46.080 --> 2:20:49.560 couple opportunities um in this, and then I there's some 2:20:49.640 --> 2:20:52.680 other misinformation I also want to talk about too, UM. 2:20:52.720 --> 2:20:55.879 But I think that this, the sourcing one, is a 2:20:56.000 --> 2:21:04.160 particularly challenging one. UM. We need like more basic science 2:21:04.160 --> 2:21:07.680 based climate communication and more languages. And I'm not saying 2:21:07.720 --> 2:21:11.480 like just the the like more languages, like the big 2:21:11.560 --> 2:21:14.480 un languages are the ones that are kind of colonial 2:21:14.520 --> 2:21:19.200 across cultural languages like Spanish or French or Arabic or 2:21:19.240 --> 2:21:22.720 you know, all these languages that have been used across cultures. 2:21:22.879 --> 2:21:25.560 We also need it in local languages, um. And we 2:21:25.600 --> 2:21:27.480 needed to be evidence based and we needed to be 2:21:27.520 --> 2:21:30.720 an audience based. Right, So if if someone is like 2:21:30.879 --> 2:21:35.880 searching online in Swahili about how like drought is happening 2:21:35.879 --> 2:21:39.360 in Kenya right or Tanzania or or the you know 2:21:39.440 --> 2:21:42.680 there's suddenly flooding or like I need to deal with X, 2:21:42.800 --> 2:21:47.520 Y and Z adaptation to the climate crisis, UM, which 2:21:47.800 --> 2:21:51.280 is by the way, what all of the global South 2:21:51.360 --> 2:21:54.120 is doing right now, right, Like, the global South is 2:21:54.200 --> 2:21:58.520 having to adapt to this crisis that polluting countries has 2:21:58.560 --> 2:22:00.800 have made, and we're not at actually giving them the 2:22:00.840 --> 2:22:05.000 resources to the to the problem that we've cost you. Well, 2:22:05.160 --> 2:22:07.240 it's not even like giving the research. We're not even 2:22:07.400 --> 2:22:10.000 like the people who are like, we want to adapt 2:22:10.000 --> 2:22:14.000 our society. We're not resourcing the folks on the ground 2:22:14.280 --> 2:22:16.960 who have the agency, who have the understanding, who know 2:22:17.040 --> 2:22:18.920 how to do the research in the context, who know 2:22:18.959 --> 2:22:21.360 how to do the communication in the context. Right, We're 2:22:21.400 --> 2:22:26.160 not even like bolstering their their request for help, right, 2:22:26.280 --> 2:22:30.560 Like the the the UN Climate Conference kind of failed 2:22:30.680 --> 2:22:35.360 on this adaptation funding, right, And uh, this is you know, 2:22:35.520 --> 2:22:38.080 this is where like a platform like Wikipedia and like 2:22:38.440 --> 2:22:41.240 kind of approaching this from a knowledge activist perspective where 2:22:41.240 --> 2:22:45.800 you're like, there are people who need this knowledge to 2:22:45.840 --> 2:22:49.440 address like understand what's happening around them so they can 2:22:49.440 --> 2:22:55.160 make decisions. That doesn't like you know, yeah, we need 2:22:55.240 --> 2:22:58.280 those kinds of information. We need open source knowledge, not 2:22:58.360 --> 2:23:02.600 just Wikipedia but one of the platforms UM. And and 2:23:02.840 --> 2:23:06.360 you know the you all do open source investigation, and 2:23:06.400 --> 2:23:09.640 you're used to like open source software communities, and I 2:23:10.000 --> 2:23:11.800 listen a couple of your podcasts and you're kind of 2:23:12.120 --> 2:23:15.520 constantly speaking back to those open communities that that come 2:23:15.560 --> 2:23:21.560 out of like anglophone software spaces, UM, and like we 2:23:21.600 --> 2:23:25.080 need to acknowledge that, Like we we figured out how 2:23:25.080 --> 2:23:28.320 to acknowledge, but we haven't given all those tools. We 2:23:28.360 --> 2:23:30.360 haven't transferred the knowledge on how to do it. We 2:23:30.400 --> 2:23:33.840 haven't adapted those tools to other parts of the world 2:23:33.879 --> 2:23:38.360 and other languages. UM. And so just like starting to 2:23:38.400 --> 2:23:42.600 look for these other communities, asking for the people, like 2:23:42.640 --> 2:23:46.800 who's ready to organize, like giving them money to go 2:23:46.920 --> 2:23:51.400 do it? Right? These things are like really practical, UM, 2:23:51.480 --> 2:23:54.760 And I think we're we're not We're not often not 2:23:54.920 --> 2:23:58.240 listening or we're not looking for that solution. And reinder 2:23:58.480 --> 2:24:01.680 like most of the people having to adapt UM are 2:24:01.720 --> 2:24:05.120 in the global South and speak other languages, Like we 2:24:05.200 --> 2:24:08.240 need to be there in that language if we want 2:24:08.280 --> 2:24:14.240 the climate crisis so like resolve itself without you know, 2:24:14.320 --> 2:24:19.920 destroying people's lives. Yeah, absolutely, UM. Yeah, That's that's the 2:24:19.959 --> 2:24:22.280 thing we try to bring up, is that the people 2:24:22.400 --> 2:24:25.480 is going to be initially worse affected are the people 2:24:25.520 --> 2:24:28.959 who are already kind of not in the greatest situation 2:24:29.000 --> 2:24:32.680 in the first place. That's like, how how like how 2:24:32.879 --> 2:24:35.160 like the areas that are gonna that are gonna experience 2:24:35.160 --> 2:24:37.080 the most flooding, the most extreme weather events, all this 2:24:37.200 --> 2:24:39.600 kind of stuff. It's it's it's not it's not starting 2:24:39.600 --> 2:24:42.080 with something like New York City. It's starting with areas 2:24:42.120 --> 2:24:44.640 that are already dealing with a lot of like local 2:24:44.680 --> 2:24:47.800 issues and now this is just something else on top. 2:24:47.920 --> 2:24:52.000 And yeah, fixing all of that is uh, I mean, 2:24:52.120 --> 2:24:54.040 fixing all of it's impossible. We can we can only 2:24:54.080 --> 2:24:58.640 take like small adaptive steps to like mitigate some of 2:24:58.680 --> 2:25:01.080 the worst as X And yeah, I mean that that's 2:25:01.080 --> 2:25:04.040 that's stuff that comes up a bunch. But you mentioned 2:25:04.080 --> 2:25:07.200 you wanted to at least briefly mentioned, um, some other 2:25:07.240 --> 2:25:11.680 forms of disinformation. Yeah, so we we've also witnessed a 2:25:11.720 --> 2:25:15.199 couple of times, um where something will hit like breaking 2:25:15.240 --> 2:25:18.720 news or become a political position in a context, and 2:25:18.760 --> 2:25:21.080 then like we will see bad actors show up on 2:25:21.080 --> 2:25:24.320 Wikipedia and try to manipulate it. Um. I have two 2:25:24.320 --> 2:25:30.480 examples of those. The first is about a year year ago, Uh, 2:25:30.800 --> 2:25:35.280 we found a group of accounts editing about some of 2:25:35.320 --> 2:25:42.080 the inter Amazonian highways that the Bolsonaro presidency is building 2:25:42.280 --> 2:25:46.120 through through the Amazon UM where they were trying to 2:25:46.200 --> 2:25:51.959 remove the environmental and indigenous people's UH impact assessments from 2:25:52.000 --> 2:25:56.480 the Wikipedia articles UH and so like basic human rights stuff, 2:25:56.800 --> 2:26:02.680 basic you know, healthy environment things that the government is 2:26:02.720 --> 2:26:06.879 like expected to follow through on. We're being like manipulated 2:26:06.959 --> 2:26:12.760 out of the articles for a more like pro economic 2:26:12.840 --> 2:26:18.320 growth narrative UM and so you know, it's we can't 2:26:18.360 --> 2:26:23.080 like the shift towards this like very extreme right like 2:26:23.280 --> 2:26:28.480 economic growth only version of reality UM does play out 2:26:28.520 --> 2:26:30.640 on the wiki. Now, we we were lucky that this 2:26:30.760 --> 2:26:33.520 was fairly trans like fairly easy to see once we 2:26:33.560 --> 2:26:37.600 found it, but we had to coordinate across UM, English, 2:26:37.640 --> 2:26:42.400 Spanish and Portuguese to like address the problem. So so 2:26:42.440 --> 2:26:44.800 we need like multi lingual communities who are kind of 2:26:44.800 --> 2:26:47.959 coordinating and talking to each other to address that. UM. 2:26:48.000 --> 2:26:51.400 The other thing we've seen is like, so did you 2:26:52.200 --> 2:26:55.720 I don't know how well you follow the climate movement? UM, 2:26:55.760 --> 2:27:00.359 but did you see when Disha Rabb got arrested and India? 2:27:01.080 --> 2:27:04.560 By chance? I don't think so. So she she's a 2:27:04.600 --> 2:27:07.960 youth climate activist that was part of Friday's for Future India, 2:27:08.600 --> 2:27:11.000 which is like a group kind of sister group of 2:27:11.040 --> 2:27:14.560 the group that formed in Europe around Greta Twinberg. Right 2:27:15.160 --> 2:27:22.960 um and uh she uh um. Her Gmail account got 2:27:22.959 --> 2:27:27.840 attached to a Google doc. Uh just seen active on 2:27:27.840 --> 2:27:31.360 a Google doc that was about sharing social media about 2:27:31.360 --> 2:27:34.400 the India the farmers protests in India, which have been 2:27:34.680 --> 2:27:38.640 like a real political sticking point issue. And I had 2:27:38.720 --> 2:27:42.640 written so I'm both a volunteer and a professional who 2:27:42.720 --> 2:27:45.400 organizes the community. And in my volunteer time, I had 2:27:45.440 --> 2:27:50.280 written the biography Adisha Rabbi like months before the Indian 2:27:50.280 --> 2:27:53.800 government kind of identified her with this social media tool kit. 2:27:54.360 --> 2:27:58.600 And um when she got arrested for something that's like 2:27:58.720 --> 2:28:05.200 just basic social organizing tactic social media, umu, the kind 2:28:05.200 --> 2:28:10.200 of Hindu nationalist social media environment like zoomed in on 2:28:10.320 --> 2:28:14.320 her Wikipedia article and on all these other social media 2:28:14.360 --> 2:28:18.560 presences she had, and they tried to silence it. Um 2:28:18.800 --> 2:28:21.400 be like okay, we need to leave this article. And 2:28:21.760 --> 2:28:24.800 uh Fortunately, like a group of us were watching the 2:28:24.800 --> 2:28:27.760 page and we caught it and we're able to stop that. 2:28:27.959 --> 2:28:30.640 But there's kind of the the the kind of flash 2:28:30.680 --> 2:28:34.640 mob situation that happens a lot now in social media, 2:28:34.680 --> 2:28:39.320 where it's that is, this thing has been polarized, now 2:28:39.360 --> 2:28:42.080 we need to go attack it. Um. And so you 2:28:42.120 --> 2:28:45.560 can imagine like English Wikipedia has a healthy immune system 2:28:45.680 --> 2:28:47.960 for this kind of stuff. It like sees it, but 2:28:48.000 --> 2:28:49.760 it has enough, it has enough people that it can 2:28:49.959 --> 2:28:53.520 do that. Yeah. Yeah, but you can imagine on a 2:28:53.640 --> 2:28:57.600 smaller wiki that the narrative could shift and stay permanently 2:28:57.600 --> 2:29:02.240 shifted quite quickly. Yeah, um if that happened. And so 2:29:02.360 --> 2:29:04.720 that that's another concern. Right, So there's like the subtle 2:29:04.760 --> 2:29:07.680 like a few accounts just like quietly removing things, and 2:29:07.720 --> 2:29:11.840 then like the act of political um kind of intervention 2:29:12.000 --> 2:29:14.320 that happens. And in terms of like disinformation, do you 2:29:14.360 --> 2:29:16.920 see the Wikipedia as being kind of susceptible to like 2:29:17.040 --> 2:29:22.879 intentional disinformation campaigns of people slowly kind of editing the 2:29:23.000 --> 2:29:26.920 ideology of of articles to to push kind of some agenda. 2:29:27.040 --> 2:29:29.240 What whether that be like individually and like like you know, 2:29:29.520 --> 2:29:32.360 more of like a crowd operation um or even like 2:29:32.760 --> 2:29:36.039 run by like people with political power, um. Like do 2:29:36.040 --> 2:29:38.039 do you how much of a risk do you see 2:29:38.080 --> 2:29:40.000 that with this kind of open source idea is that's 2:29:40.360 --> 2:29:44.840 of of like intentional slow dissemination of disinformation on like 2:29:45.120 --> 2:29:49.640 important articles and stuff. Well, so I think I might 2:29:49.720 --> 2:29:54.520 reframe your question a little bit like, uh, all open 2:29:54.600 --> 2:29:58.560 source kind of knowledge spaces are susceptible to that, right. Um. 2:29:58.600 --> 2:30:02.879 The question is to like what degree and how harmful 2:30:03.440 --> 2:30:07.119 is it going to be? Right? Um, like is it 2:30:07.200 --> 2:30:09.959 is it like very open to this and will it 2:30:10.160 --> 2:30:14.039 cause a lot of problems? Um, the bigger language wikipedias 2:30:14.120 --> 2:30:17.320 have healthy immune systems, but we we have a combination 2:30:17.320 --> 2:30:20.160 of kind of bots that are like AI generated that 2:30:20.240 --> 2:30:22.320 flag bag edits, and then we have a lot of 2:30:22.320 --> 2:30:25.560 community patrolling happening. And even in some of the smaller 2:30:25.600 --> 2:30:30.240 communities that have like medium sized editor communities, like Swedish Wikipedia, 2:30:31.000 --> 2:30:34.119 it doesn't take a lot for that local language community 2:30:34.200 --> 2:30:38.840 to patrol the pages and like be like oh okay, um, 2:30:38.920 --> 2:30:42.080 these changes are kind of weird. I can roll it back, Um, 2:30:42.240 --> 2:30:46.000 like this doesn't seem like it fits our culture of Wikipedia. 2:30:46.440 --> 2:30:50.000 The problem is when a language Wikipedia has very few 2:30:50.160 --> 2:30:54.800 editors and they're not active all the time. Um, And 2:30:54.800 --> 2:30:58.600 and so this is where we need kind of more 2:30:58.680 --> 2:31:01.920 eyes on the content, right because it's it's very easy 2:31:02.000 --> 2:31:05.160 for like a really small language community to kind of 2:31:05.480 --> 2:31:08.279 have a little bit of content but never see it maintained. 2:31:08.840 --> 2:31:12.520 Um And and this is where the like where where 2:31:12.600 --> 2:31:15.240 our communities are forming around these languages, like a lot 2:31:15.280 --> 2:31:18.680 of the West African languages for example, that our communities 2:31:18.840 --> 2:31:22.320 are are kind of organizing in we we like invest 2:31:22.360 --> 2:31:26.080 in those communities existing and like figuring out the governance 2:31:26.200 --> 2:31:28.680 and training people how to edit and getting access to 2:31:28.720 --> 2:31:31.800 the kind of technical skills to do this. Um. And 2:31:32.120 --> 2:31:35.840 you know, we have kind of systems that we're hoping 2:31:36.000 --> 2:31:38.879 over the next few years invest in that resilience, right, 2:31:39.000 --> 2:31:41.720 like building a code of conduct making it easier for 2:31:41.760 --> 2:31:45.120 communities to see this kind of stuff. But it is 2:31:45.200 --> 2:31:50.560 three languages, right, um yeah, And it is a volunteer 2:31:50.760 --> 2:31:55.960 built system, and you do need a healthy editatorial community 2:31:56.000 --> 2:32:00.720 in order to keep a wiki from like drifting too much. UM. 2:32:00.760 --> 2:32:03.200 So a good example of listening to get a reference 2:32:03.280 --> 2:32:06.360 creation because it's the one we've done research on, Like 2:32:06.920 --> 2:32:11.600 it was possible for a few people to push people 2:32:11.680 --> 2:32:15.840 who are more in consensus with the global position on 2:32:15.959 --> 2:32:21.440 various topics out of the wiki. Um. And that's just 2:32:21.879 --> 2:32:25.520 like we we have to find a balance between like 2:32:25.840 --> 2:32:29.280 local language. Uh and this is my personal opinion, right, 2:32:29.640 --> 2:32:31.880 we need to find a balance between kind of local 2:32:31.920 --> 2:32:38.439 language sovereignty on this stuff and also not like radicalizing 2:32:39.520 --> 2:32:41.920 its topical environment. And we and we see this particularly 2:32:41.920 --> 2:32:45.600 on impactful topics, right, like ones that directly affect like 2:32:46.040 --> 2:32:50.920 politics or in the kids climate crisis, like people's livelihoods 2:32:51.040 --> 2:32:55.680 and ability to function in society, right. Um And we 2:32:55.800 --> 2:32:57.879 just like we need to be cautious about that. But 2:32:57.879 --> 2:33:01.080 but you know, Wikipedia is a common resource. Uh. And 2:33:01.120 --> 2:33:04.039 I think this is really important. Like the way Wikipedia 2:33:04.120 --> 2:33:07.439 works is you know, the Wikimmunitia Foundation provides the servers, 2:33:07.520 --> 2:33:10.080 We fund our communities, we support them, we help them 2:33:10.440 --> 2:33:15.080 work through governance issues. But like the we need editorial 2:33:15.080 --> 2:33:19.600 communities to maintain it. That's what those two thousand people 2:33:20.560 --> 2:33:24.120 are doing as volunteers as they're building an editorial practice 2:33:24.160 --> 2:33:28.120 that makes the content work. Um. And and we we 2:33:28.160 --> 2:33:31.560 need that um. And so we need you know, like 2:33:31.680 --> 2:33:35.400 minded communities like the people for your podcasts who are like, oh, 2:33:35.440 --> 2:33:38.000 we need the Internet to be reliable and have accurate 2:33:38.040 --> 2:33:40.720 information a lot to show up um. Because if we 2:33:40.720 --> 2:33:44.680 don't do that, it's it's really like it's the common 2:33:44.720 --> 2:33:49.840 resource we we we have a decent international listening MACE 2:33:49.920 --> 2:33:53.400 as well. UM, and I'm thinking like, what would would 2:33:53.440 --> 2:33:56.440 you like recommend people you know in different countries or 2:33:56.440 --> 2:33:59.879 even people inside inside kind of like, uh, you know 2:34:00.120 --> 2:34:04.360 the States, America, Canada, the UK who are like multi langual, 2:34:04.400 --> 2:34:07.640 would you at least encourage them to browse other language 2:34:07.640 --> 2:34:10.400 wikipedias and maybe start making edits when they see this 2:34:10.440 --> 2:34:15.600 type of misinformation popping up. Yeah, so I to kind 2:34:15.600 --> 2:34:19.720 of perspectives on this one. Um, look for a local 2:34:19.879 --> 2:34:23.039 organized community. So we we have what's called Wikimedia Affiliates. 2:34:23.120 --> 2:34:28.240 These are fifty organizations around the world. They regularly run events, 2:34:28.680 --> 2:34:32.880 especially now that we're leaving COVID, increasingly more in person events. 2:34:32.879 --> 2:34:36.600 They trained folks like look for them in your context 2:34:37.040 --> 2:34:39.360 and if you need help finding, you know, find me 2:34:39.400 --> 2:34:43.680 on Twitter and I can connect you with those communities. Um. 2:34:43.920 --> 2:34:47.039 And the other part is small edits. So I think 2:34:47.080 --> 2:34:49.400 a lot of people look at Wikipedia and they think 2:34:49.440 --> 2:34:53.480 about like a traditional publishing platform, right like, oh, you 2:34:53.520 --> 2:34:56.280 know I have to write the whole whole article. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:34:56.280 --> 2:34:58.400 I have to be a master. And and the secret 2:34:58.440 --> 2:35:01.200 sauce to all of this is most people start with 2:35:01.280 --> 2:35:04.960 one citation, one comma, one type of fix, and they 2:35:05.000 --> 2:35:08.040 do a handful of those a month, and then they 2:35:08.120 --> 2:35:10.400 keep coming back. And as you do those small edits, 2:35:10.400 --> 2:35:12.959 you start reading the content more carefully and fixing the 2:35:13.000 --> 2:35:16.840 things you can fix. And so I recommend going in 2:35:16.879 --> 2:35:19.680 to like add one citation. Like if you go and 2:35:19.720 --> 2:35:22.920 add one citation today, that like makes life better, or 2:35:22.959 --> 2:35:27.040 you fix the communication on the sentence. UM. The other 2:35:27.080 --> 2:35:29.360 part of it is, you know, I said, there's these 2:35:29.440 --> 2:35:33.039 organized groups, uh for the climate in particular, I run 2:35:33.080 --> 2:35:36.560 this campaign called Wiki for Human Rights, which is focused 2:35:36.640 --> 2:35:40.480 on UM. We with it's a theme that we kind 2:35:40.480 --> 2:35:42.520 of identified with you and human rights on the right 2:35:42.600 --> 2:35:46.040 to a healthy environment, which is this new human right 2:35:46.280 --> 2:35:49.440 that has been acknowledged by the Human Rights Council. And 2:35:49.480 --> 2:35:53.520 we're we're organizing kind of writing contests and editor the 2:35:53.520 --> 2:35:56.320 fons and kind of train names for communities to go 2:35:56.360 --> 2:35:59.000 and look for the human dimension of the climate crisis. 2:35:59.000 --> 2:36:02.120 So I think when we think about climate communication, a 2:36:02.120 --> 2:36:04.800 lot of people are like science right there, like, oh, 2:36:04.920 --> 2:36:08.000 this is you know about how weather systems work and 2:36:08.760 --> 2:36:12.039 how the atmosphere it forms, and the kind of stuff 2:36:12.440 --> 2:36:16.440 and the content that's more impactful. Is this like human 2:36:16.480 --> 2:36:19.879 inflected stuff like how does the climate crisis in fact 2:36:20.800 --> 2:36:24.520 you as an individual and agriculture in the cities you 2:36:24.560 --> 2:36:28.760 live in, and the clothing you buy in the manufactured 2:36:28.840 --> 2:36:33.600 goods in mine around the corner that's producing water pollution 2:36:33.959 --> 2:36:38.160 that's gonna harm your children for the next thirty years, right, um, 2:36:38.240 --> 2:36:41.200 and and that is the kind of stuff that we're 2:36:41.280 --> 2:36:43.920 encouraging communities to pay attention to. Is it is more 2:36:44.000 --> 2:36:50.240 the like justice and human rights oriented perspective on these topics? 2:36:50.400 --> 2:36:53.720 And your cat is very cute. Every once in a 2:36:53.760 --> 2:36:59.000 while they love to love to take the camera. Um 2:36:59.080 --> 2:37:02.400 and so yeah. So, so if you follow me on Twitter, 2:37:02.520 --> 2:37:04.800 I will I can hook you up with that campaign 2:37:04.959 --> 2:37:08.760 as well. Yeah. Yeah. Where where can people find you 2:37:09.040 --> 2:37:11.879 online and to learn more information about, you know, the 2:37:11.959 --> 2:37:15.879 various kind of topics we've discussed today. So, um, search 2:37:16.320 --> 2:37:20.440 if you're interested in climate change stuff on Wikipedia English. 2:37:20.440 --> 2:37:24.480 Wikipedia has a wonderful wiki project climate change that has 2:37:24.520 --> 2:37:26.879 a little tab at the So if you search wiki 2:37:26.920 --> 2:37:30.360 project climate change on Google and you find there's a 2:37:30.400 --> 2:37:32.680 tab at the top that says get started with easy 2:37:32.840 --> 2:37:35.480 edits and that kind of can get you oriented to like, 2:37:35.640 --> 2:37:39.520 where can you affect English Wikipedia on this? And you know, 2:37:39.600 --> 2:37:41.600 once you find a gap on English, it's easy to 2:37:41.680 --> 2:37:45.360 find it on other languages. UM. For the kind of 2:37:45.480 --> 2:37:47.640 learning about Wiki free human rights, you can search for 2:37:47.680 --> 2:37:51.240 that um and or follow me on Twitter. UM s 2:37:51.280 --> 2:37:55.920 A D A D S sad ads on Twitter. Um. Uh. 2:37:56.160 --> 2:37:59.640 We also have a group called Wikimedians for Sustainable Development 2:38:00.280 --> 2:38:02.960 who's kind of communicating on Twitter, which is the group 2:38:03.080 --> 2:38:07.160 that's really focused on sustainability topics more generally. UM. And 2:38:07.320 --> 2:38:11.240 you know, the other way to look is find something 2:38:11.280 --> 2:38:14.359 you've been reading about about the climate crisis or sustainability 2:38:14.360 --> 2:38:18.400 issues in the news. Look it up on Wikipedia. See 2:38:18.400 --> 2:38:21.480 if it's missing. UM. If it's not, click that edit 2:38:21.520 --> 2:38:25.080 button at a sence. Right. UM. The good example of this, 2:38:25.720 --> 2:38:30.000 I learned about a park and uh the center of 2:38:30.080 --> 2:38:33.920 Nairobi that's being protested by environmental activists because some of 2:38:33.920 --> 2:38:39.360 the big trees were being cut down a Huru park. Right. Uh. 2:38:39.480 --> 2:38:42.360 This came by on my Twitter handle, Like I'm not 2:38:42.520 --> 2:38:46.600 connected to this at the moment, right, UM, But because 2:38:46.640 --> 2:38:49.120 I had news sources, I had three or four news sources, 2:38:49.160 --> 2:38:51.440 I could say really simply in two thousand one the 2:38:51.440 --> 2:38:55.560 park came under scrutiny for renovation that included removing old trees. 2:38:56.160 --> 2:39:00.880 That's a climate action, right uh. And I think you know, 2:39:01.720 --> 2:39:05.000 I am constantly overwhelmed by the climate crisis, as as 2:39:05.240 --> 2:39:09.000 a lot of people. Yeah yeah, And and like just 2:39:09.120 --> 2:39:15.199 being able to tell that little story, like hey, um, 2:39:15.400 --> 2:39:19.680 the decisions people are making are not productive here, right Um. 2:39:19.720 --> 2:39:23.640 Just just gathering that story is important. And what's important 2:39:23.680 --> 2:39:26.760 is Wikipedia plays institutional memory on this, right. I feel 2:39:26.760 --> 2:39:29.080 like you know, a lot of a lot of activists 2:39:29.080 --> 2:39:31.920 work is very temporal. It's very like in that moment, 2:39:32.120 --> 2:39:35.440 right um. And if it doesn't get documented on Wikipedia, 2:39:35.959 --> 2:39:38.320 the local news sources are gonna get lost in the 2:39:38.320 --> 2:39:43.480 wind of time. Um. And so I think you know, 2:39:43.520 --> 2:39:46.320 if you to do your little activist motion, like a 2:39:46.440 --> 2:39:51.440 sentence describing what happened in a moment where resistance was happening, 2:39:51.959 --> 2:39:55.280 is like a huge step forward, right um, because it 2:39:55.520 --> 2:39:59.920 connects the environmental crisis, climate crisis, human rights issues too, 2:40:00.480 --> 2:40:03.440 like daily lives. Like people look up this park probably 2:40:03.640 --> 2:40:06.720 on Google because they want to go there, right or 2:40:06.800 --> 2:40:09.280 they read about it because people are like when was 2:40:09.320 --> 2:40:12.680 it created? What was that protest that happened? There the 2:40:12.680 --> 2:40:15.879 other day. And if those sourcesn't there, um, then it 2:40:15.920 --> 2:40:18.480 doesn't really exist in their minds. Yeah, it doesn't exist 2:40:18.480 --> 2:40:21.280 in their minds. And I think that's like one of 2:40:21.320 --> 2:40:24.760 the big issues with climate crisis, and you know, amplified 2:40:24.800 --> 2:40:29.160 even worse in other languages, right, is that people aren't 2:40:29.160 --> 2:40:32.400 making that connection. They aren't seeing it around them, and 2:40:32.440 --> 2:40:36.640 they're not you know, kind of connecting action to how 2:40:36.680 --> 2:40:41.440 we address it. That. Uh, that is a really good 2:40:41.600 --> 2:40:43.080 that's a really good point. And yeah, I mean I 2:40:43.120 --> 2:40:46.720 will encourage everybody to to start making small leddits. That's 2:40:46.760 --> 2:40:49.080 what's what I did for a long time before I 2:40:49.120 --> 2:40:53.920 moved into like open source um journalism and reporting. It's 2:40:53.959 --> 2:40:55.959 a great way to get started, and it's a great 2:40:55.959 --> 2:40:58.760 way to get just start start disseminating small bits of 2:40:58.760 --> 2:41:00.600 information because the only thing that we can really do 2:41:00.640 --> 2:41:04.240 is people is small steps. We can have like an 2:41:04.280 --> 2:41:07.200 adaptive goal in mind, but you need to take small 2:41:07.240 --> 2:41:10.840 steps to get there. And that is a really great 2:41:10.840 --> 2:41:15.000 way to start influencing the way people think about climate 2:41:15.200 --> 2:41:19.320 and our situation. Um. Yeah, And and I think too, 2:41:19.440 --> 2:41:21.879 you know, your your podcast kind of appeals to folks 2:41:21.879 --> 2:41:24.840 who are interested in like finding the truth and reality, right, 2:41:24.879 --> 2:41:29.800 and that that's that's like that that investigation is what 2:41:29.959 --> 2:41:34.679 a Wikipedia article is. It is like one ten hundred 2:41:35.000 --> 2:41:37.119 editors out there in the world trying to go like, 2:41:37.280 --> 2:41:40.320 what the heck is this topic about? Right? How do 2:41:40.400 --> 2:41:44.400 I compile my notes? Uh in a way that helps 2:41:44.400 --> 2:41:46.080 other people? And I think in the face of the 2:41:46.080 --> 2:41:49.880 climate crisis, Dr Ianna Johnson says, like, find the thing 2:41:49.920 --> 2:41:52.200 you're good at, find the thing you're passionate about, and 2:41:52.200 --> 2:41:54.720 find the thing that like or that that makes you 2:41:54.760 --> 2:41:57.920 feel good and you're you're just rewarding, And find the 2:41:57.959 --> 2:42:01.640 thing that actually like helps affect the climate crisis. Right, 2:42:01.720 --> 2:42:04.760 And a small idn'ta on Wikipedia meets your kind of 2:42:04.959 --> 2:42:08.720 knowledge needs. It's very satisfying because people will read it 2:42:09.240 --> 2:42:13.400 and it is incriminal change in the right direction, right, 2:42:13.800 --> 2:42:18.000 people will make decisions on it. Uh. Yeah, I mean, 2:42:18.080 --> 2:42:19.879 and I guess uh, I think that I think that 2:42:19.959 --> 2:42:23.200 probably closes this up today and let's see anything else 2:42:23.240 --> 2:42:26.119 to add. Um, I guess one more plug for your 2:42:26.120 --> 2:42:29.400 Twitter so we can get get more eyeballs on you. 2:42:29.640 --> 2:42:32.960 Um and the work that you're doing. Yeah, um so 2:42:33.080 --> 2:42:37.680 at S A D A D S. It's my long 2:42:37.800 --> 2:42:41.600 term handle on the internet and you you can find 2:42:41.600 --> 2:42:45.440 me Oliver Plate uh and I tweet about Wikipedia on 2:42:45.480 --> 2:42:48.879 the climate crisis. Will and we'll we'll link the Wikipedia 2:42:49.640 --> 2:42:52.959 wiki project climate change page in the description for people 2:42:53.000 --> 2:42:55.480 to find. Thank you so much for taking time to 2:42:56.040 --> 2:43:00.400 talk to us all about these topics. I'm really really great, uh, 2:43:00.800 --> 2:43:04.879 really grateful to have this type of knowledge readily accessible 2:43:04.920 --> 2:43:08.400 to more people. Also, you know, in the spirit of Wikipedia. 2:43:09.080 --> 2:43:12.760 Thanks so thank you so much. Um. You can follow 2:43:12.879 --> 2:43:16.160 us by subscribing to the feed and on Twitter, Instagram 2:43:16.200 --> 2:43:19.400 at Happened Here pod and cool Zone Media. See you 2:43:19.440 --> 2:43:43.600 on the other side, everybody. It's could happen Here? That's 2:43:43.640 --> 2:43:49.160 the podcast that this is. It's about things crumbling and uh, 2:43:49.440 --> 2:43:52.080 how to maybe uncrumble some of the things that are crumbling. 2:43:52.080 --> 2:43:54.840 And today when we think about the crumbles, when you 2:43:54.840 --> 2:43:58.320 start thinking about the hell world that that we're all 2:43:58.360 --> 2:44:01.800 increasingly inhappening, the scar y ship that is getting scarier 2:44:01.879 --> 2:44:04.040 day by day. Number one on a lot of people's 2:44:04.040 --> 2:44:08.520 list is going to be the cops um real cause 2:44:08.520 --> 2:44:11.000 of anxiety for a significant chunk of people listening to 2:44:11.040 --> 2:44:15.400 this podcast right now, including its hosts, Um Alexander you 2:44:15.440 --> 2:44:17.920 and I have chatted before on the air. Our guest 2:44:17.959 --> 2:44:22.760 today Alexander Williams, Um, you were a police officer in 2:44:22.800 --> 2:44:25.119 the past and you are not currently and you want 2:44:25.160 --> 2:44:29.840 to chat about Um the topic kind of the way 2:44:29.840 --> 2:44:31.680 you pitched it to us is there's a lot of 2:44:31.760 --> 2:44:37.000 aspects of police training that are very similar to what 2:44:37.080 --> 2:44:39.720 colts do to indoctrinate people, and you kind of wanted 2:44:39.760 --> 2:44:41.720 to speak on that. Yeah, there's a lot of there's 2:44:41.760 --> 2:44:45.400 a lot of cross sections. Um, so, yeah, I used 2:44:45.400 --> 2:44:47.240 to be a cop. I was in law enforcement for 2:44:47.959 --> 2:44:51.080 just shot at fifteen years until I woke up and 2:44:51.120 --> 2:44:55.200 got out luckily, and uh, all the stuff that's been 2:44:55.200 --> 2:44:57.440 going on over the last couple of years, and the 2:44:57.480 --> 2:45:03.520 craziness and really ingesting a lot of stuff around, you know, cults, 2:45:03.879 --> 2:45:06.959 and I started going down that the little checklist that 2:45:07.000 --> 2:45:08.560 you go down of like are you in a high 2:45:08.560 --> 2:45:12.959 control group? And man, they all just look just deinged 2:45:12.959 --> 2:45:15.000 in my head every single time of like, oh, this 2:45:15.080 --> 2:45:17.000 is exactly what it was like being a cop. Oh, 2:45:17.080 --> 2:45:18.800 this is exactly what it was like being a cop. 2:45:19.320 --> 2:45:22.320 And I'm curious, kind of before we get more into it, 2:45:22.680 --> 2:45:24.120 do you want to walk us through a little bit 2:45:24.160 --> 2:45:28.400 more kind of what was your process of UM, I know, 2:45:28.400 --> 2:45:30.879 de radicalization isn't exactly the right term, but I think 2:45:30.879 --> 2:45:32.520 you know what I'm getting. It's it's in the it's 2:45:32.520 --> 2:45:37.400 in the it's in the neighborhood shore. Yeah. Mine. So 2:45:37.480 --> 2:45:40.600 I was raising a cop family. My dad was a copy, 2:45:40.800 --> 2:45:44.520 went the whole nine yards, retirement, the whole thing. And 2:45:46.240 --> 2:45:49.440 when I got into it, just shy of twenty two 2:45:49.520 --> 2:45:53.240 years old, which that's young to be making these kinds 2:45:53.280 --> 2:45:57.000 of choices looking back on it. Um. We had talked 2:45:57.040 --> 2:46:01.400 on the last podcast of your season one, UM about 2:46:01.400 --> 2:46:05.000 when my brother got arrested and got beat by my 2:46:05.040 --> 2:46:07.920 own team, my my own crew, and the jail that 2:46:07.959 --> 2:46:10.480 I worked with, which is the jails is where I 2:46:10.560 --> 2:46:14.360 primarily spent most of my time. And I think that 2:46:14.360 --> 2:46:18.520 that was, uh, item number one kind of on my shelf, 2:46:18.640 --> 2:46:20.920 like people call it. That's that's that's a big one 2:46:20.920 --> 2:46:25.959 to right on the shelf. Um. And during my training, 2:46:26.400 --> 2:46:29.560 I've always been an obstinate little bastard and I've always 2:46:29.600 --> 2:46:34.040 had that kind of like authority defiance. And in training 2:46:34.120 --> 2:46:36.360 they say start telling you really early, like hey, you 2:46:36.360 --> 2:46:39.560 know what you know where your family we understand you, 2:46:39.600 --> 2:46:42.320 We're going to get you. And then like the language 2:46:42.360 --> 2:46:45.320 even then kind of flared red flags wrong for me. 2:46:46.320 --> 2:46:49.480 And whenever a group of people says we're your family, 2:46:49.760 --> 2:46:53.360 and so right, like that's what you like, we're your 2:46:53.400 --> 2:46:56.360 family and you can talk to us anytime. Fine, we're 2:46:56.360 --> 2:46:59.119 your family and I got your back. Fine, we're your family, 2:46:59.200 --> 2:47:02.040 and that's why you need to do this. Things have 2:47:02.200 --> 2:47:04.560 got to ride. It's it's it usually is where your 2:47:04.600 --> 2:47:10.920 family comma now? Yeah? Yeah? And yes. So that that 2:47:11.040 --> 2:47:14.080 was like literally day one, it was where your family now, 2:47:14.120 --> 2:47:16.000 where you're you know, they use all that language, the 2:47:16.080 --> 2:47:20.920 familiar language, where your brothers, your sisters. Yeah. And the 2:47:20.920 --> 2:47:24.520 one that kicked for me and my brain was they said, 2:47:24.560 --> 2:47:27.440 within a year, you're not gonna have any friends that 2:47:27.560 --> 2:47:31.120 aren't cops, Like all of your civilian friends are going 2:47:31.160 --> 2:47:34.560 to be gone because they're not gonna understand you and 2:47:34.600 --> 2:47:36.080 they're not going to be able to be around you 2:47:36.120 --> 2:47:39.480 and handle you. So within a year, you know, we're 2:47:39.480 --> 2:47:42.080 going to be everything you've got. And for me, that 2:47:42.240 --> 2:47:44.000 was like that was a line in the sand, and 2:47:44.120 --> 2:47:46.119 like part of my brain was screaming like nope, never 2:47:46.200 --> 2:47:50.400 letting that happen. I will not let my uh myself 2:47:50.440 --> 2:47:53.959 not have any non cop friends. Yeah, that's probably good 2:47:53.959 --> 2:47:56.480 because that's I mean, you have like when it it 2:47:56.520 --> 2:47:58.920 gets to it's the same thing that happens to anybody, right, 2:47:58.959 --> 2:48:01.720 like some people got like last year in Portland and 2:48:01.920 --> 2:48:04.119 Activist Brain where there was this all the people were 2:48:04.120 --> 2:48:06.400 spending time with other people were out protesting, and so 2:48:06.440 --> 2:48:09.160 we have this really intense bond and we also are 2:48:09.240 --> 2:48:12.520 kind of separated, increasingly separated from the people around us 2:48:12.520 --> 2:48:15.720 because we just can't communicate with anybody else. And that 2:48:15.959 --> 2:48:17.879 kind of going on for years and years, because this 2:48:17.959 --> 2:48:20.720 is your career for twenty something years, and it's like, yeah, 2:48:20.800 --> 2:48:23.520 that would you'd be, you'd be after a couple of 2:48:23.560 --> 2:48:26.280 years of that you were inhabiting a different planet. They 2:48:26.360 --> 2:48:29.400 really are. And it's the how you said that, like, 2:48:29.440 --> 2:48:32.560 you know, this is usually twenty to thirty years, you know, 2:48:32.680 --> 2:48:34.640 because you want to get that sweet retirement at the 2:48:34.720 --> 2:48:37.920 end after you've abused your mind and your body for 2:48:38.000 --> 2:48:41.640 three decades um. It was keyed off something that you 2:48:41.680 --> 2:48:44.560 and Garrison talked about in a previous episode of The 2:48:44.640 --> 2:48:48.920 Hiring Practices where the Washington Stay guys and they were 2:48:49.120 --> 2:48:52.959 they got busted because the therapist was showing tons of bias. 2:48:53.040 --> 2:48:57.680 And that brought up for me the hiring process because 2:48:57.720 --> 2:49:02.160 those psyche exams are the only time as a cop 2:49:02.240 --> 2:49:04.039 did you get a psych exam? That's the only time 2:49:04.040 --> 2:49:09.600 you ever talked to a therapist mandatorially. Yeah that's not great. Yeah, 2:49:09.600 --> 2:49:11.800 it's a really bad move. And there's a joke in 2:49:11.879 --> 2:49:15.160 cop culture of like, well, yeah, you gotta pass it 2:49:15.200 --> 2:49:17.280 before you get hired, because after you get hired, you're 2:49:17.320 --> 2:49:21.400 never going to pass that test. Mm hmm, because you know, 2:49:21.600 --> 2:49:24.960 being a cop is is micro dosing PTSD and your 2:49:25.000 --> 2:49:30.440 system the entire time. See, I guess one thing I'm 2:49:30.440 --> 2:49:32.520 wondering because you you were in it for fifteen years, 2:49:32.520 --> 2:49:35.640 so that's that's not an insignificant span of time. Has 2:49:35.680 --> 2:49:38.960 it gotten to be more that way? Because I knew 2:49:40.000 --> 2:49:43.040 about fifteen something years ago when I was like eighteen nineteen, 2:49:43.160 --> 2:49:45.359 just like I lived in the shitty little apartment complex, 2:49:45.400 --> 2:49:47.800 and like the dude who live below above me, and 2:49:47.800 --> 2:49:49.440 then like the dude who lived two doors down, we're 2:49:49.440 --> 2:49:54.920 both Dallas cops um, and I don't know, like I 2:49:55.040 --> 2:49:57.360 you know, I was not particularly political at that point, 2:49:57.400 --> 2:49:59.840 but I didn't. They didn't seem to have trouble relating, 2:49:59.840 --> 2:50:02.040 like they would hang out and ship after work, like 2:50:02.920 --> 2:50:05.600 just like not like like we would be like barbecuing 2:50:05.640 --> 2:50:07.440 outside and they would drop by and stuff, and it 2:50:07.440 --> 2:50:09.040 was never I never got the sense that they were 2:50:09.080 --> 2:50:11.199 living in a separate planet. But this is like fifteen 2:50:11.280 --> 2:50:14.160 years ago, and I'm wondering what to what extent do 2:50:14.160 --> 2:50:17.600 you think this is kind of increased in recent memory, 2:50:17.720 --> 2:50:23.880 Like this the kind of you don't really socialize with 2:50:23.920 --> 2:50:27.840 people outside of the family, so to speak. It is 2:50:27.920 --> 2:50:29.640 kind of like that. So, yeah, a lot of the 2:50:29.680 --> 2:50:32.680 language you're using is perfect because so what you're describing 2:50:32.720 --> 2:50:34.600 and what I remember from being a kid in the 2:50:34.600 --> 2:50:38.560 eighties and the nineties and stuff was um community policing. 2:50:38.760 --> 2:50:42.600 Like it's it's a literal style of policing, going back 2:50:42.600 --> 2:50:45.480 to more of like the professional police style before it 2:50:45.520 --> 2:50:50.760 went military, and in areas where people actively live in 2:50:50.800 --> 2:50:54.560 their community and engage with their community, there's a striking 2:50:54.640 --> 2:51:00.880 difference in the level of police violence that happens. But nowadays, uh, 2:51:00.920 --> 2:51:03.240 it's not the same thing because a lot of especially 2:51:03.320 --> 2:51:07.920 in bigger metropolitan areas, you're a cop there, you can't 2:51:07.920 --> 2:51:10.400 afford to live there. You're you're definitely not getting paid 2:51:10.480 --> 2:51:12.440 enough to live most of the time in the cities 2:51:12.480 --> 2:51:14.920 that you're supposed to be, you know, a part of. 2:51:15.959 --> 2:51:18.720 And it's gotten to the point where they actually teach 2:51:18.800 --> 2:51:22.880 this like method up methodically in academies. They'll be like, hey, 2:51:22.879 --> 2:51:24.280 if you want to be a cop in a big town, 2:51:24.720 --> 2:51:27.119 you need to start shopping around in the smaller cities 2:51:27.160 --> 2:51:29.000 around it to find a place to live, maybe like 2:51:29.040 --> 2:51:32.640 an hour away. Um. And then they also pitch it 2:51:32.680 --> 2:51:34.520 as a safety thing because it's all about, you know, 2:51:34.720 --> 2:51:39.280 the cheology Grossman, we're all under attack, so they'll teach people, 2:51:39.360 --> 2:51:42.680 you know what, it's it's safest to not live in 2:51:42.760 --> 2:51:47.039 the town where you're a cop now. So it's become intentional, 2:51:48.480 --> 2:51:50.760 and it's one of those things where because I don't 2:51:50.760 --> 2:51:52.560 want to breeze past this is not the episode world 2:51:52.560 --> 2:51:56.080 talk about community policing. There's very good criticisms of community policing, 2:51:56.080 --> 2:51:58.480 and there's a lot of things that doesn't solve. But 2:51:58.560 --> 2:52:01.080 I think it's yeah, yeah, absolutely, we're not trying to 2:52:01.080 --> 2:52:02.840 say like the solution is just to get cops, you know, 2:52:02.879 --> 2:52:05.200 to be members of their communities. But it it is 2:52:05.320 --> 2:52:09.280 worse when they're driving in from an hour out of 2:52:09.320 --> 2:52:11.920 town and see it as like I'm occupying almost this 2:52:12.040 --> 2:52:15.840 area like it does. Yeah, that language fits perfectly, especially 2:52:15.879 --> 2:52:19.680 with Grossman and all that. Yes, and we've got a 2:52:19.680 --> 2:52:21.920 two partner on David Grossman or Behind the Bastards if 2:52:21.920 --> 2:52:23.320 you want to check it out. But he's kind of 2:52:23.320 --> 2:52:25.760 the one of the big, one of the big individuals, 2:52:25.760 --> 2:52:29.040 who's who's done the most to like really push UM. 2:52:29.080 --> 2:52:32.320 I don't even like it's usually framed as militarized thinking, 2:52:32.360 --> 2:52:35.200 but I don't know a lot of soldiers who have 2:52:35.280 --> 2:52:38.520 been who were trained to think that way about ship. 2:52:38.600 --> 2:52:40.480 Like most of the people I know who we're getting 2:52:40.520 --> 2:52:43.960 shot at every day for years overseas, we're not thinking 2:52:44.000 --> 2:52:47.400 the way Grossman does. No, that's probably because he never 2:52:47.400 --> 2:52:53.039 actually wouldn't did anything. I think maybe we should probably Alexander, 2:52:53.080 --> 2:52:56.199 have you go start going through this um, this document 2:52:56.240 --> 2:52:59.000 you put together, kind of walking through UM and I 2:52:59.080 --> 2:53:01.680 wonder if you might start when you kind of started 2:53:01.720 --> 2:53:05.879 thinking about police training and the mindset inculcated inside police 2:53:05.879 --> 2:53:09.120 departments from like a cultic perspective, When did that really 2:53:09.240 --> 2:53:13.200 start to come together for you? Uh? It probably really 2:53:13.200 --> 2:53:16.360 started to come together. Um uh when actually when I 2:53:16.400 --> 2:53:19.080 got involved, I used to be an instructor. When I 2:53:19.120 --> 2:53:21.120 got you know, behind that part of the curtain, and 2:53:21.120 --> 2:53:25.160 I got involved in those things. Um and I started 2:53:25.160 --> 2:53:27.680 going to teaching, and I started teaching other departments that 2:53:27.680 --> 2:53:29.760 would come to us, and it was it was a 2:53:29.840 --> 2:53:31.640 joke in my head at first, was like, oh, we 2:53:31.680 --> 2:53:33.879 all speak the same language. And then that got my 2:53:33.920 --> 2:53:37.720 brain rolling on linguistics and how linguistics work and how 2:53:37.760 --> 2:53:41.080 that you know, the words we use change how we 2:53:41.120 --> 2:53:43.280 perceive reality. And then I clicked and I was like, oh, 2:53:43.280 --> 2:53:46.600 we're like a We're a subculture. We're we're like no 2:53:46.640 --> 2:53:49.320 matter where you go in the country, we are a 2:53:49.360 --> 2:53:53.720 little subculture. We are a little group. And uh, that's 2:53:53.720 --> 2:53:56.320 what started to kind of push me towards like it's 2:53:56.320 --> 2:54:00.000 like being in a cult because you know, you girl 2:54:00.120 --> 2:54:03.840 up around Central California and there's a lot of really 2:54:03.920 --> 2:54:06.760 religious people and you start seeing the intersectionality of it 2:54:06.800 --> 2:54:10.920 really fast. Yeah, and that's interesting because we've talked a 2:54:10.920 --> 2:54:13.120 few times on various shows I've done about how any 2:54:13.120 --> 2:54:15.760 good subculture, any really good party, has elements of like 2:54:15.800 --> 2:54:18.520 a cult. Right, there's there's little bits of that. There's 2:54:18.560 --> 2:54:23.400 bits of that in friendship and whatnot. Yeah, yeah, it's 2:54:23.400 --> 2:54:26.039 just a thing like cults are taking advantage, like pulling 2:54:26.080 --> 2:54:29.160 a bunch of things that people do together in order 2:54:29.200 --> 2:54:34.320 to manipulate human beings. Um, I'm wondering kind of where 2:54:34.360 --> 2:54:36.000 where you think? Where are some of the areas you 2:54:36.000 --> 2:54:38.480 think it kind of crosses the line with police from 2:54:38.520 --> 2:54:41.240 like this is you know a degree of like I'm 2:54:41.280 --> 2:54:44.440 sure firefighters have a degree of this. You know, Um, 2:54:44.640 --> 2:54:46.560 these are people that like I hang around with all 2:54:46.600 --> 2:54:49.280 the time and we wipe up in some intense situations together. 2:54:49.320 --> 2:54:53.640 That causes there are culti aspects that's always going to cause. Um, 2:54:53.680 --> 2:54:56.040 I'm wondering, kind of where where are the first areas 2:54:56.080 --> 2:54:58.960 you started to realize this this is crossing that line 2:54:59.680 --> 2:55:03.640 of Probably the first area is in how much the department, 2:55:03.840 --> 2:55:05.960 like and this was universal and lots of departments that 2:55:06.000 --> 2:55:09.520 I had contact with, is how much the department owns you? 2:55:09.680 --> 2:55:11.920 And I mean like they use that language. They they'll 2:55:11.920 --> 2:55:15.080 tell you like we own you like anything you do 2:55:15.160 --> 2:55:17.520 in your personal life. Your first thought needs to be 2:55:18.160 --> 2:55:22.039 how does this affect my department and my my sheriff, 2:55:22.120 --> 2:55:24.600 my chief, my whatever, Like every single thing you do 2:55:24.720 --> 2:55:29.440 is supposed to be potentially pr for the department. So 2:55:29.720 --> 2:55:31.680 they tell you flat out, in the forefront of your 2:55:31.720 --> 2:55:36.160 mind every waking moment, your own duty. You're you're, you're here, 2:55:36.200 --> 2:55:40.039 you're you, we own you. Um. And that that was 2:55:40.080 --> 2:55:42.320 the first one that was just like, oh man, Like, no, 2:55:42.400 --> 2:55:44.360 I punch out at the end of my shift and 2:55:44.400 --> 2:55:48.600 I go home. This isn't like, this isn't this is 2:55:48.640 --> 2:55:51.160 a job. It's not supposed to be a life. It's 2:55:51.560 --> 2:55:53.440 it's then that that was the first one that started 2:55:53.480 --> 2:55:57.720 going it. Um. Probably the second one that I really 2:55:57.720 --> 2:56:00.520 noticed was that you can tell anyone's a because they'll 2:56:00.520 --> 2:56:02.200 tell you within about five seconds of meeting them. But 2:56:02.200 --> 2:56:05.320 they're common. If you're at a bar, you're at a party, 2:56:05.400 --> 2:56:07.480 or at whatever, they'll be like, hi, my, my, mine's 2:56:07.480 --> 2:56:10.400 Alexander work for the search part Like it's it's gonna 2:56:10.400 --> 2:56:14.160 come out of their mouth in two seconds, because it is. 2:56:14.280 --> 2:56:17.400 It's their identity, it's their entire sense of self. Yeah, 2:56:17.600 --> 2:56:19.760 I wonder because one of the things we've seen in 2:56:19.800 --> 2:56:22.560 the last couple of years in particular, is aspects of 2:56:22.600 --> 2:56:25.400 that bleed out, like the thin blue line flags and stuff, 2:56:25.440 --> 2:56:28.920 and some of that's some of that's just you know, signpost. 2:56:28.959 --> 2:56:32.520 Some of that's just I know, people who were in uh, 2:56:33.320 --> 2:56:36.360 certain jobs where they transported things that were sketchy and 2:56:36.400 --> 2:56:38.400 had those flags. Is like, well maybe the cop won't 2:56:38.400 --> 2:56:41.320 search mer, you know, but like there and there's elements 2:56:41.360 --> 2:56:42.880 that they're just you know, I don't want the cops 2:56:42.959 --> 2:56:45.240 to stop me from you know, fucking with these people 2:56:45.280 --> 2:56:48.959 or whatever. But I think there's also elements of that. 2:56:49.920 --> 2:56:52.760 Um And I think probably television is to blame for 2:56:52.800 --> 2:56:56.200 aspects of this, but of kind of that sheep dog 2:56:56.240 --> 2:56:59.560 culture as as as grossman calls that are starting to 2:56:59.600 --> 2:57:02.880 bleed over into chunks of the civilian world. UM. And 2:57:02.959 --> 2:57:05.280 I guess I'm wondering kind of like, yeah, what that 2:57:05.320 --> 2:57:09.720 looks like as a as someone unlike the the deep 2:57:09.800 --> 2:57:12.360 inside of that as a police officer, Like what is it? 2:57:12.920 --> 2:57:14.920 I'm wondering, like to what extent where you kind of 2:57:14.959 --> 2:57:19.400 conscious of that aspect of society like filling out around you. 2:57:19.480 --> 2:57:21.960 Like some of these like the cult of the of 2:57:22.040 --> 2:57:26.440 the heroic police officer kind of spreading to be um 2:57:26.879 --> 2:57:30.200 something new, which which it really started doing from like 2:57:30.280 --> 2:57:32.840 two thousand and eighteen up to the present moment is 2:57:32.840 --> 2:57:34.840 when a lot of that shift seems to have happened 2:57:34.840 --> 2:57:38.080 based on kind of what I've saw. You No, that 2:57:38.280 --> 2:57:41.360 timeline fits perfectly because I remember when I first got hired, 2:57:41.720 --> 2:57:44.360 the thin blue line. It existed. It was a thing, 2:57:44.440 --> 2:57:46.240 but it was just it was just a matte black 2:57:46.280 --> 2:57:49.039 with a blue line and that was it. Uh. And 2:57:49.320 --> 2:57:51.760 you didn't really even in cop culture, like I didn't 2:57:51.760 --> 2:57:53.840 grow up seeing that thing in the eighties and the nineties, 2:57:53.879 --> 2:57:55.680 not much, not at all. And then when I was 2:57:55.680 --> 2:57:57.840 in the department in the in the in the two thousand's, 2:57:58.520 --> 2:58:00.280 you kind of saw it every now and again, someone 2:58:00.400 --> 2:58:04.080 might have a pelpin like in the department, but out 2:58:04.160 --> 2:58:09.040 in public, nobody had that stuff. No nobody, nobody had 2:58:09.080 --> 2:58:11.200 any of that rocking stuff. And it didn't It never 2:58:11.240 --> 2:58:14.560 really bothered me until it showed up on an American 2:58:14.600 --> 2:58:16.280 flag and then that was that was a big red 2:58:16.280 --> 2:58:19.600 flag of like, oh this m this is bad. I 2:58:19.680 --> 2:58:22.360 was like, this is this is nationalism, guys, this isn't good. 2:58:22.360 --> 2:58:23.640 And like my whole crew look to me and go 2:58:23.760 --> 2:58:29.760 what's nationalism? And I'm just like, fuck, is there this 2:58:29.959 --> 2:58:32.400 like sense that people are totying or is it this 2:58:32.480 --> 2:58:35.800 sense that like this is kind of the silent majority 2:58:35.840 --> 2:58:38.360 that backs us in doing whatever hard work we need 2:58:38.400 --> 2:58:41.440 to do. I think it started out as tody, it 2:58:41.520 --> 2:58:46.039 really did, and it's but it's now shifted into um 2:58:46.080 --> 2:58:49.000 this whole like, you know, you get those guys that 2:58:49.040 --> 2:58:50.480 are like, oh, if I see a cop getting in 2:58:50.480 --> 2:58:51.800 a fight, I'm gonna get out of my car and 2:58:51.840 --> 2:58:53.360 I'm gonna jump in there and I'm gonna back them 2:58:53.440 --> 2:58:57.280 up because they're like they're playing top. They really want 2:58:57.840 --> 2:59:00.520 that authority or that whatever, but for whatever reason they 2:59:00.520 --> 2:59:03.680 don't go do it. M Yeah, but this has been 2:59:03.720 --> 2:59:05.840 a way of like kind of they get to see 2:59:05.840 --> 2:59:09.440 themselves as being like a posse kind of a thing, 2:59:09.879 --> 2:59:11.600 like I'm in the I'm in the club. I'm not 2:59:11.680 --> 2:59:15.200 in the club, but like they're my buddies and is 2:59:15.240 --> 2:59:17.800 there I don't know, does that make being in the 2:59:17.800 --> 2:59:20.520 club cooler? The fact that there's these kind of posse's 2:59:20.800 --> 2:59:23.440 forming around it, these people kind of work worshiping the 2:59:23.480 --> 2:59:26.200 culture associated with it. I mean, there probably is now, 2:59:26.240 --> 2:59:27.920 but honestly, when I was in there freaked me the 2:59:27.920 --> 2:59:31.040 hell out. It really really creeped me out. I didn't 2:59:31.080 --> 2:59:33.680 like it at all. Yeah. I mean, you have to 2:59:33.720 --> 2:59:36.080 think about if you're if you're a reasonable person, how 2:59:36.120 --> 2:59:38.720 weird it would be to see your job turned into 2:59:38.840 --> 2:59:42.160 a cult like Garrison, you know that feeling, or you're 2:59:42.200 --> 2:59:48.039 you're going to learn when we when we make the cult. Yeah, okay, 2:59:48.200 --> 2:59:50.120 so I wanted to. I guess let's let's let's get 2:59:50.160 --> 2:59:51.600 back to this kind of list you put together, because 2:59:51.640 --> 2:59:54.680 you were sort of going through different hallmarks of what 2:59:54.800 --> 2:59:56.920 makes something a cult. One of them is the group 2:59:56.959 --> 3:00:00.200 displays and excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its eater 3:00:00.520 --> 3:00:03.680 and whether he is alive or dead, regards his belief system, ideology, 3:00:03.720 --> 3:00:06.680 in practices as the truth as law. Um. And I'll 3:00:06.680 --> 3:00:08.959 remind you we were not talking about my podcast. We're 3:00:09.000 --> 3:00:15.680 talking about cults here. Uh that's right. Um, Yes, stay quiet, Garrison. 3:00:19.400 --> 3:00:23.200 They're just smiling, silently staring at us through zoom. I 3:00:23.280 --> 3:00:27.039 see you. Okay, And you've written under this the law 3:00:27.120 --> 3:00:29.440 is the higher power. They grant control of their actions. 3:00:29.480 --> 3:00:31.640 Blind faith in the system frees them from having to 3:00:31.680 --> 3:00:34.039 consider their role in the system. It's my job to 3:00:34.160 --> 3:00:36.200 arrest in charge high let the court figure out the 3:00:36.240 --> 3:00:38.480 rest it sounds a lot like kill them all let 3:00:38.560 --> 3:00:40.360 and let God sort him out. In this case, the 3:00:40.360 --> 3:00:44.280 criminal justice system is a direct replacement for God. I think, 3:00:44.280 --> 3:00:45.840 I think this is this is a really good point. 3:00:45.879 --> 3:00:48.360 This is even this is the thing even when I 3:00:48.400 --> 3:00:52.360 was like a dumb kid and thought cops were fine, 3:00:52.440 --> 3:00:54.320 This was the one thing that even like just even 3:00:54.360 --> 3:00:56.600 still freaked me out about cops because every once in 3:00:56.640 --> 3:00:58.560 a while you would see a video of like the 3:00:58.680 --> 3:01:01.600 cot was randomly like a saulting somebody, and then other 3:01:01.640 --> 3:01:04.400 cops nearby just mindlessly join in, and I'm like, whoa, 3:01:04.600 --> 3:01:07.400 that's so such a weird kind of group dynamic of 3:01:07.720 --> 3:01:10.840 they see someone doing something and they just don't question 3:01:10.879 --> 3:01:13.600 it at all and immediately back it up, no matter 3:01:13.680 --> 3:01:15.720 what actually was happening. Because like I always tried to 3:01:15.760 --> 3:01:18.400 think things through more like logically, and that type of 3:01:18.440 --> 3:01:21.760 like mindlessness really freaked me out, and I think was 3:01:21.800 --> 3:01:23.840 maybe one of the first things that was like huh, 3:01:23.840 --> 3:01:26.000 maybe it was. It was one of the first cracks 3:01:26.040 --> 3:01:29.959 and like maybe cops actually aren't good. Um. I think, yeah, 3:01:29.959 --> 3:01:31.600 I think this is a really great point in terms 3:01:31.680 --> 3:01:35.240 of how this ties into like, yeah, it's my job 3:01:35.280 --> 3:01:38.199 to it's my job to arrest and charge. I don't 3:01:38.240 --> 3:01:40.800 sort out what happens afterwards, so it doesn't actually matter. 3:01:40.920 --> 3:01:43.160 Like it's like I'm not I'm not actually hurting these 3:01:43.200 --> 3:01:45.600 people because if if they did something wrong, it's gonna 3:01:45.640 --> 3:01:48.240 get figured out in the court system. I'm just doing 3:01:48.280 --> 3:01:51.520 this like preliminary task. It's it plays into a whole 3:01:51.520 --> 3:01:55.480 bunch of like weird psychological things that make you feel 3:01:55.520 --> 3:01:58.160 better about horrible actions you're doing because you have so 3:01:58.240 --> 3:02:00.920 much backing that's gonna make sure what you do actually 3:02:00.920 --> 3:02:05.720 isn't bad. Yeah, this is like this, you know, this arrest, 3:02:05.920 --> 3:02:09.360 which may be physical and ugly even if they're innocent later. 3:02:09.480 --> 3:02:11.080 It's just part of what you have to do to 3:02:11.160 --> 3:02:12.720 get to the point where you determine whether or not 3:02:12.800 --> 3:02:15.440 they're innocence. So I'm not doing anything bad. Yeah, yeah, 3:02:15.520 --> 3:02:18.200 And actually, Garrison, I it's it's what you said. It's 3:02:18.240 --> 3:02:20.039 perfect because in the bottom of the thing where I 3:02:20.080 --> 3:02:23.280 was just spewing notes to myself, I literally put down 3:02:23.280 --> 3:02:25.080 here it's not a job to them, it's a central 3:02:25.120 --> 3:02:27.840 component of their sense of self. This is why they 3:02:27.879 --> 3:02:32.840 will do terrible things to validate their perceived reality and 3:02:32.879 --> 3:02:37.520 how these things. Yeah, they it's you might say, like 3:02:37.600 --> 3:02:39.640 imagine how like think about how hard it is to 3:02:39.640 --> 3:02:42.720 get people to admit they're wrong about a political belief 3:02:42.879 --> 3:02:46.240 on Twitter, especially when their name is attached to their account. 3:02:46.720 --> 3:02:51.280 Now imagine you have like imagine that's the thing being argued, 3:02:51.360 --> 3:02:54.240 is like the central thing around which you organize your life. 3:02:54.240 --> 3:02:56.800 And also you get to shoot people who make you angry. 3:02:57.400 --> 3:03:00.440 Oh yeah, it's it's a rough situ. It should to 3:03:00.440 --> 3:03:03.879 be it. It is, it is. It's crazy. And the 3:03:03.920 --> 3:03:06.959 part that I wrote of it's my job to arrest 3:03:07.000 --> 3:03:10.560 and charge high, I think that's that's a part of 3:03:11.360 --> 3:03:14.640 the mentality of it is like, yeah, I don't want 3:03:14.640 --> 3:03:16.280 to say it's like a game, but it almost is 3:03:16.320 --> 3:03:18.600 like a game. It's almost like they're trying to get points, 3:03:18.640 --> 3:03:21.360 like score high and talk to me about talk to 3:03:21.360 --> 3:03:23.200 me about when you say a rest and charge high 3:03:23.320 --> 3:03:24.760 kind of what is that? What does that sort of 3:03:24.800 --> 3:03:26.920 look like on the ground before we get into kind 3:03:26.959 --> 3:03:30.640 of why people do that. So, when when you're using 3:03:30.640 --> 3:03:32.800 your your powers of arrest, you're you're you're supposed to 3:03:32.840 --> 3:03:35.640 adhere to a penal code. But there is code and 3:03:35.640 --> 3:03:38.080 I'm only speaking to California, because that's where I got 3:03:38.120 --> 3:03:42.320 my trainer. Um, they don't expect cops to remember every 3:03:42.320 --> 3:03:45.200 single element of every single PC code because that's ridiculous. 3:03:45.480 --> 3:03:48.040 No one's going to be able to do that. Um. 3:03:48.080 --> 3:03:52.240 So there's there's wiggle room, there's play where I know 3:03:52.360 --> 3:03:54.240 you did this thing, and I know it's what they 3:03:54.280 --> 3:03:57.240 call a wobbler, Like I can go felony and go misdemeanor. 3:03:57.680 --> 3:03:59.440 They'll teach you in the academy. They're like, if it's 3:03:59.440 --> 3:04:02.560 a wabbler, always charge felony every single time, even if 3:04:02.560 --> 3:04:06.640 you don't think it's gonna work. Charge it felony, take 3:04:06.680 --> 3:04:08.320 it to the d A and let the d A 3:04:08.360 --> 3:04:10.360 c if they can make it stick. And if they don't, whatever, 3:04:10.400 --> 3:04:14.600 who cares. That's not part of our job anymore. And yeah, 3:04:14.640 --> 3:04:16.680 and that's one of those things where a lot of 3:04:16.720 --> 3:04:19.120 people I've had friends who got charged with felonies that 3:04:19.240 --> 3:04:22.160 got dropped. But like, you're still living under your You 3:04:22.280 --> 3:04:24.480 essentially have to live as like the diet version of 3:04:24.520 --> 3:04:28.199 a felon while that's hanging over your head um, which 3:04:28.240 --> 3:04:30.760 is not fun. No, And it's a big part of 3:04:30.800 --> 3:04:32.800 the whole criminal justice. I'm sure you guys are aware 3:04:32.879 --> 3:04:35.120 that d a's love to crack deals. They love to 3:04:35.200 --> 3:04:40.000 make their big may general backroom deals, and facilitating that 3:04:40.160 --> 3:04:44.160 is cops charging high. You're here in the room, you're 3:04:44.200 --> 3:04:46.880 facing felony charges, and the d A is gonna be like, oh, man, 3:04:46.920 --> 3:04:48.520 I can knock that down to him his demeanor. But 3:04:48.600 --> 3:04:51.560 that's because he knows he doesn't have a case. But 3:04:51.640 --> 3:04:54.960 he didn't get that opportunity without a cop charging the 3:04:55.040 --> 3:05:00.000 higher charge. Now you know who isn't going to charge 3:05:00.200 --> 3:05:06.200 high because their prices are incredibly low, very reasonable, very fair. 3:05:06.240 --> 3:05:11.039 The products and services that support our podcast. Uh, we're back. 3:05:11.680 --> 3:05:14.080 So the next thing you've got on here is kind 3:05:14.080 --> 3:05:17.720 of talking about cult characteristics. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are 3:05:17.760 --> 3:05:21.640 discouraged or even punished. And you've written academies are commonly paramilitary. 3:05:21.680 --> 3:05:24.119 They're working to break down and build up cadets. As 3:05:24.120 --> 3:05:27.640 discussed last season on my show, the FDO program is 3:05:27.640 --> 3:05:30.200 where fresh cadets meet salty veterans in the cycle of 3:05:30.280 --> 3:05:33.760 abuse starts. The paramilitary environment is usually casual and unnoticeable 3:05:33.800 --> 3:05:37.400 until somebody questions orders or tradition. Questioning order gets the 3:05:37.520 --> 3:05:40.760 that's an order threat. While questioning tradition and suggesting improvements 3:05:40.760 --> 3:05:43.160 gets that's how it's always been done. There is no 3:05:43.280 --> 3:05:46.200 forum for change your progress. Some places have these forums, 3:05:46.200 --> 3:05:48.880 but they're just for public relations. And this is the 3:05:48.879 --> 3:05:52.560 thing that I think people who are trying to engage 3:05:52.600 --> 3:05:56.240 with from a perspective of like reform or whatever, trying 3:05:56.280 --> 3:05:59.400 to change law enforcement, as a lot of people were 3:05:59.520 --> 3:06:02.440 last year, where things get jammed up a lot is 3:06:02.480 --> 3:06:07.840 the there's this attitude among civilians, so to speak, among 3:06:07.879 --> 3:06:10.680 most of us that like, well, anything the government does 3:06:10.680 --> 3:06:12.520 should be subject to like what we should watch out. 3:06:12.560 --> 3:06:14.119 We should look at it, we should see if it works. 3:06:14.160 --> 3:06:15.840 If it doesn't work, we should change it to make 3:06:15.879 --> 3:06:18.760 it work better. And that's how kind of everything should work. 3:06:18.840 --> 3:06:21.680 And that's what you're getting it here. Is interesting because 3:06:21.720 --> 3:06:26.359 it's the reticence to actual change among police as legendary. 3:06:26.400 --> 3:06:27.880 But I don't think there's a lot of discussion if 3:06:27.879 --> 3:06:31.720 the psychology behind it. Yeah, I mean it's that it 3:06:31.760 --> 3:06:34.280 goes back to that whole will do anything to reinforce 3:06:34.280 --> 3:06:38.560 our perception of reality thing. Um, like I said earlier, 3:06:38.680 --> 3:06:42.040 grew up in a cop family and it's specifically in 3:06:42.080 --> 3:06:44.080 the department that I worked at so you know, we 3:06:44.080 --> 3:06:48.400 were called like blue bloods or legacy kids, And no 3:06:48.400 --> 3:06:51.440 matter what was going on, like anything that you questioned, 3:06:51.480 --> 3:06:53.440 it was always, well, that's always it's that's the way 3:06:53.480 --> 3:06:55.800 it's always been done. That's the way it's always been done. 3:06:56.320 --> 3:06:59.959 And I grew to hate that answer, like with a passion, 3:07:00.840 --> 3:07:06.280 in my personal life everywhere. I refused to give that 3:07:06.320 --> 3:07:08.959 as an answer. When I became a sergeant, eventually, um, 3:07:09.879 --> 3:07:13.640 and yeah, they'll do anything. I mean they will, they 3:07:13.640 --> 3:07:18.080 will bend laws, they'll break laws because who's gonna charge them. Yeah, 3:07:18.080 --> 3:07:22.080 because it's what they've always done always. My department famously 3:07:22.160 --> 3:07:25.880 had um our union got all of our union news 3:07:25.920 --> 3:07:29.920 embezzled by people in our brass and they got caught 3:07:29.959 --> 3:07:33.280 dead to rights. But that case never went anywhere. Nobody 3:07:33.320 --> 3:07:35.959 would touch it with a ten foot poll. Uh. And 3:07:36.000 --> 3:07:37.440 even if you go and google it and you try 3:07:37.480 --> 3:07:40.040 to look at archives from the local newspaper, it's gone. 3:07:40.160 --> 3:07:44.280 It never happened. And Yeah, that's interesting to me because 3:07:44.280 --> 3:07:49.680 that's like cops getting screwed over by cops. Why how 3:07:49.800 --> 3:07:52.080 is that? How is that? How was it? Like? What 3:07:52.080 --> 3:07:54.360 what what is the impulse to defend the hat Well, 3:07:54.440 --> 3:07:58.080 because so there's a division in in cop culture of 3:07:58.440 --> 3:08:00.720 like like ranks and a cult. Once you get to 3:08:00.879 --> 3:08:03.960 what they called brass your your lieutenant, captain or higher, 3:08:04.920 --> 3:08:07.240 they don't look at us the same way they don't 3:08:07.280 --> 3:08:10.520 look at the grunts, the line workers, the guys doing 3:08:10.520 --> 3:08:14.280 the twelve hour shifts were all that family talk goes 3:08:14.320 --> 3:08:15.880 out the window and it's like, well, we're mom and 3:08:15.959 --> 3:08:21.040 dad now, and they change their role in that world, 3:08:21.400 --> 3:08:24.879 and again to maintain that power and authority, they'll do 3:08:24.920 --> 3:08:31.360 whatever they have to do. Yeah, that's um. I mean. 3:08:31.640 --> 3:08:35.400 It also kind of feeds into this this idea that 3:08:35.480 --> 3:08:38.120 like there used to be less restrictions. There used to 3:08:38.160 --> 3:08:39.920 be like we used to really be able to like 3:08:40.080 --> 3:08:42.240 do this and do that, Like we like a lot 3:08:42.280 --> 3:08:44.760 of violence get justified that way. But it also it 3:08:45.080 --> 3:08:47.480 provides an opportunity I think for like police who are 3:08:47.480 --> 3:08:51.560 trying to engage with reformers to do some sneaky ship 3:08:51.640 --> 3:08:54.640 because often this like community policing is referred to like yeah, 3:08:54.760 --> 3:08:57.400 we need to go back to the old methods of policing. 3:08:57.440 --> 3:09:00.400 It's like, well, but there were probed do you remember 3:09:00.440 --> 3:09:03.240 the fire houses being used to black people during the 3:09:03.280 --> 3:09:06.400 Civil rights movement, Like there were issues back before we 3:09:06.440 --> 3:09:09.480 got militarized. It's and I mean, and that was the 3:09:09.520 --> 3:09:12.760 stuff they were doing outside. Um, the jail I worked in. 3:09:12.840 --> 3:09:16.240 Because you bring up fire hoses, this is where I'm going. Um, 3:09:16.280 --> 3:09:18.720 they we had big cotton fire hoses up on the 3:09:18.720 --> 3:09:20.600 floors in this jail and there was actually built out 3:09:20.600 --> 3:09:23.640 of old parts of the Texas prison. And you know, 3:09:23.760 --> 3:09:25.640 everyone talks about the good old days when we could 3:09:25.680 --> 3:09:28.760 really do stuff. And the story that always went around 3:09:28.840 --> 3:09:31.320 was that when the inmates were getting rowdy, they would 3:09:31.320 --> 3:09:33.080 just walk down the tier with the hose and just 3:09:33.280 --> 3:09:37.320 name them. And then Jesus Christ put it back because again, 3:09:38.080 --> 3:09:40.240 who who's gonna who's gonna tell on me? Who's gonna 3:09:40.240 --> 3:09:43.480 believe these guys? Yeah, and that was back in like 3:09:43.680 --> 3:09:46.600 seventies era. You know, that's the that's the big fish 3:09:46.600 --> 3:09:48.440 story that guys used to always tell. But I'm like, 3:09:48.480 --> 3:09:50.240 I have no reason to not believe that story. It 3:09:50.400 --> 3:09:55.680 sounds very I mean worre stuff happens in prisons today. Yeah, yeah, 3:09:55.879 --> 3:09:59.800 I'm not surprised. All right, moving on down your list, 3:09:59.800 --> 3:10:02.400 This one's really interesting to me and I'm I'm curious 3:10:02.400 --> 3:10:04.320 from some detail on this, because this is not something 3:10:04.360 --> 3:10:08.959 I ever really thought about. Um. Mind altering practices such 3:10:08.959 --> 3:10:12.720 as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, or debilitating 3:10:12.720 --> 3:10:15.640 work routines are used in excess and served to suppress 3:10:15.720 --> 3:10:18.119 doubts about the group and its leaders. And you've written 3:10:18.160 --> 3:10:20.840 cop talk briefings, evails are always negative, and the work 3:10:20.879 --> 3:10:24.280 routine is abusive. It is paired with hyper vigilance. Um. 3:10:24.320 --> 3:10:26.680 I'm I'm extremely interested in that and kind of like 3:10:26.720 --> 3:10:30.160 how it how it sounds like the kind of language 3:10:30.480 --> 3:10:32.840 that you're talking about people using among each other when 3:10:32.840 --> 3:10:37.520 they're doing this, So I you know almost, I mean, 3:10:37.600 --> 3:10:39.880 I'm not even almost in kind of a PTSD response. 3:10:40.160 --> 3:10:43.879 I've blocked out like a lot of my memories from 3:10:43.879 --> 3:10:47.320 those years, Like I'll talk to that make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 3:10:47.360 --> 3:10:49.199 I'll talk to X cops and they're like, hey, remember 3:10:49.200 --> 3:10:54.119 blah blah blah, and I'm like no, Um, So cop 3:10:54.160 --> 3:10:58.080 talk is mostly slang. It's like it's the ten code stuff. Um. 3:10:58.200 --> 3:11:00.760 But it gets stuck in your head and you start 3:11:00.920 --> 3:11:02.240 and it's it's one of those things where they talk 3:11:02.240 --> 3:11:03.680 about how you're not gonna have friends outside of work 3:11:03.680 --> 3:11:06.760 because you're gonna start talking in this language. You will say, 3:11:06.879 --> 3:11:08.800 you know, what's your twenty You know, I'm code for 3:11:09.400 --> 3:11:12.240 if you see someone who's acting a certain way, like 3:11:12.280 --> 3:11:14.360 out of the ordinary, maybe a mentally ill person, you'll 3:11:14.400 --> 3:11:16.760 say like, oh, that's a jay cat. Like you'll use 3:11:16.800 --> 3:11:21.440 this jailhouse slang, and it just it permeates your brain. 3:11:21.480 --> 3:11:24.800 And like we said before, your words manipulate how you 3:11:25.360 --> 3:11:30.400 for see reality and you just start seeing everything that way. Um. 3:11:30.520 --> 3:11:34.520 The big one is the hyper vigilance cycle. Is the 3:11:34.760 --> 3:11:37.400 is the abusive part. That's that's the part that really 3:11:37.440 --> 3:11:41.160 got me thinking of cults of how they'll you know, 3:11:42.720 --> 3:11:46.360 deny your food, sleep, make you work crazy hours and 3:11:46.400 --> 3:11:50.000 do all these things. Um. And that's that's that's the 3:11:50.000 --> 3:11:52.160 one that really keep the whole calb aspect for me 3:11:52.360 --> 3:11:55.119 was the hyper vigilance cycle. The studies that have gone 3:11:55.160 --> 3:11:58.600 into it. UM. I learned about it from a book 3:11:59.080 --> 3:12:01.400 this little guy right here. It's called Emotional Survival for 3:12:01.480 --> 3:12:05.560 Law Enforcement. It's by Kevin M. Gil Martin, PhD. He's 3:12:05.600 --> 3:12:08.720 an X cop who kind of PhD in neuroscience and 3:12:08.800 --> 3:12:13.720 studies studied cops brains and got to see how they function. 3:12:13.800 --> 3:12:15.440 And he's the one that kind of coined this whole 3:12:15.520 --> 3:12:20.359 hyper vigilance cycle of you're always edging at this parasympathetic 3:12:20.480 --> 3:12:24.519 fight flight or freeze response time when you're on duty. Yeah, 3:12:24.760 --> 3:12:27.039 it just stays up there the entire time. I'm sure 3:12:27.160 --> 3:12:29.160 soldiers about the same thing, funk. I'm sure you had 3:12:29.160 --> 3:12:31.480 the same thing, Robert when you were doing your war 3:12:31.560 --> 3:12:37.320 journalism stuff, man, or fuck just being in Portland last year. Yeah. Yeah, 3:12:37.360 --> 3:12:40.560 it keeps you at that edge, that cresting peak, and 3:12:40.600 --> 3:12:44.160 then you crash and you get back up and boom, 3:12:44.200 --> 3:12:47.800 you peek up again and then you crash, And it's 3:12:47.840 --> 3:12:50.240 almost like a drug. Your brain becomes addicted to that 3:12:50.480 --> 3:12:53.720 peeked out feeling that you get from the hyper vigilance 3:12:53.760 --> 3:12:55.920 because you do here a little better, you see a 3:12:55.920 --> 3:12:58.840 little brother better, your brains moving a little faster because 3:12:58.840 --> 3:13:02.119 there's that high the amount of adrenaline just constantly dripping 3:13:02.120 --> 3:13:05.640 into your system, and then you crash. And when you 3:13:05.680 --> 3:13:08.440 crash is when you're not at work, So you start 3:13:08.440 --> 3:13:12.080 associating not being at work with feeling bad and being 3:13:12.120 --> 3:13:17.000 at work feels good. Yeah, I mean, the same thing happened. 3:13:17.800 --> 3:13:21.080 I'm sure Garrison, it happened like during the riots where 3:13:21.280 --> 3:13:24.959 you would feel shitty when you weren't out there. Um, yes, 3:13:25.240 --> 3:13:27.960 some days I would go out, not even to just 3:13:28.000 --> 3:13:30.520 to cover it, just to kind of just stand there 3:13:30.560 --> 3:13:32.840 like a block away because there was nothing else to do. 3:13:33.200 --> 3:13:35.440 Like it was, there's like I could sit at home 3:13:35.480 --> 3:13:38.279 and rest, but I'll just be watching whatever is happening, 3:13:38.320 --> 3:13:41.160 not doing anything else. You just it it feels it 3:13:41.200 --> 3:13:44.400 would feel more relaxing just to stand on a street 3:13:44.400 --> 3:13:48.720 corner and watch people throws stuff over events, because that 3:13:48.720 --> 3:13:50.920 that that's just that's more relaxing than laying down. It 3:13:51.000 --> 3:13:54.519 was like it's that a very a very weird disassociate 3:13:54.560 --> 3:13:58.000 of like feeling that. Yeah, Like my my brain is 3:13:58.640 --> 3:14:00.760 it's accustomed to this environy it now, so this is 3:14:00.760 --> 3:14:04.200 the environment I'm gonna be in. Right, And look how 3:14:04.280 --> 3:14:08.560 fast your brain got into that groove now, you know, 3:14:08.720 --> 3:14:12.120 imagine doing it for thirty years, yeah, instead of like 3:14:12.200 --> 3:14:14.520 six months or even though it's it's it's started only 3:14:14.520 --> 3:14:17.960 after like two months, right, and or even even in 3:14:18.000 --> 3:14:25.520 some cases like a month. Yeah, it sets in fast. Yeah. Um, 3:14:25.560 --> 3:14:27.640 all right, so I wanted to get into the kind 3:14:27.640 --> 3:14:31.240 of the next thing here. Um, the leadership dictates sometimes 3:14:31.240 --> 3:14:33.720 in great detail how members should think, act and feel. 3:14:33.800 --> 3:14:36.039 E g. Members must get permission to date, change jobs, 3:14:36.040 --> 3:14:38.280 are married or Leaders prescribe what to wear, where to live, 3:14:38.280 --> 3:14:41.840 whether to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth. Um, 3:14:41.959 --> 3:14:45.240 very classic cult ship, right, like the nut really of 3:14:45.280 --> 3:14:48.080 what I had. We had all all that stuff when 3:14:48.080 --> 3:14:50.040 I was a kid. Yeah, I would guess that, like 3:14:51.040 --> 3:14:52.840 the time, if you ask someone for a quick definition 3:14:52.879 --> 3:14:55.080 of a cult, this is what they're gonna say something 3:14:55.160 --> 3:14:56.680 or there. This this is the kind of ship they're 3:14:56.680 --> 3:15:02.039 going to highlight. Um. And I'm interes did in Yeah, 3:15:02.640 --> 3:15:04.640 just talk because you already chatted a bit about about this. 3:15:04.760 --> 3:15:06.960 Just the fact that, like the way in which police 3:15:07.040 --> 3:15:11.440 policy works kind of restructures how you function off duty, 3:15:11.760 --> 3:15:14.840 which I think is something that people everyone understands elements 3:15:14.840 --> 3:15:17.400 of it, right, Like if you're a fucking dishwasher for 3:15:17.440 --> 3:15:21.160 a living, you will wash dishes differently forever, right Like 3:15:21.200 --> 3:15:24.039 if you if you bag your like bagsh it at 3:15:24.080 --> 3:15:27.080 a grocery store, like that's something that you'll always kind 3:15:27.080 --> 3:15:29.000 of know how to do. Like these bits and pieces 3:15:29.000 --> 3:15:31.720 of this, but it's not quite the same as what 3:15:31.760 --> 3:15:34.240 you're talking about. And I want to get kind of 3:15:34.400 --> 3:15:37.520 into why. Yeah, it's kind of like when you're when 3:15:37.520 --> 3:15:39.680 you're as an adult, you do something that you're like, oh, 3:15:39.680 --> 3:15:40.920 I used to do that at my first job and 3:15:40.959 --> 3:15:42.600 I was like fifteen, But yeah, it does stick with 3:15:42.680 --> 3:15:46.320 you the muscle. The muscle memory sticks in those narrow 3:15:46.360 --> 3:15:49.120 pathways that your brain gets carved unless you get the 3:15:49.200 --> 3:15:52.760 right kinds of mushrooms to fix that. So and then 3:15:52.800 --> 3:15:55.360 you just throw ship in the bad suck it. Yeah, 3:15:55.600 --> 3:16:00.080 smooth out those curves. Um. But yeah, the leadership he 3:16:00.120 --> 3:16:02.560 does dictate. I mean some of them are some of 3:16:02.560 --> 3:16:04.480 them you can foy and some of the republic you can. 3:16:05.240 --> 3:16:08.600 You can pull up policies and procedures, standard operating procedures, 3:16:08.600 --> 3:16:10.400 and you can look at like there's a ton of 3:16:10.400 --> 3:16:12.760 policies that literally dictate what you are and are not 3:16:12.800 --> 3:16:15.800 allowed to do in your personal life. Things you're allowed 3:16:15.840 --> 3:16:19.000 to post on social media, places, you're allowed to go 3:16:19.040 --> 3:16:23.560 in uniform. And it all just starts like tinking away 3:16:23.720 --> 3:16:25.959 at your armor of that that sense of identity, that 3:16:26.000 --> 3:16:32.360 sense of self, and that's how the job becomes your identity. Again. 3:16:32.840 --> 3:16:38.400 It permeates every corner of your life if you let it. Um, 3:16:38.440 --> 3:16:42.039 if you don't have, like the I don't know the 3:16:42.160 --> 3:16:44.879 mental strength to kind of resist that. It washes over 3:16:44.920 --> 3:16:49.280 your real fast. Because while that's all going on, especially 3:16:49.320 --> 3:16:51.960 as a young cop, you feel great. You're you're special. Now, 3:16:52.200 --> 3:16:55.119 you're you're in this, You're in the magic club. You 3:16:55.120 --> 3:16:57.560 you have the the symbol on your chest and the 3:16:57.560 --> 3:17:01.840 gun on your hip, and it's really easy to let 3:17:01.879 --> 3:17:06.200 that slip and just become everything about you. Um yeah, 3:17:06.240 --> 3:17:09.800 remember permissions like so, permission to date and things like 3:17:09.800 --> 3:17:13.080 that might sound a little weird, but there are times 3:17:13.080 --> 3:17:16.440 where like, my wife and I don't dress like the 3:17:16.440 --> 3:17:20.880 typical conservative Central Valley person. Uh, and at out of 3:17:20.879 --> 3:17:24.680 work functions I would get I would get comments from 3:17:24.720 --> 3:17:27.240 people being like, hey, maybe, yeah, your your wife has 3:17:27.280 --> 3:17:30.120 a lot of really colorful hair, like maybe she should 3:17:30.120 --> 3:17:35.000 tone that down Jesus for again. That was another one 3:17:35.000 --> 3:17:37.200 where I'm like, what, No, that's my wife. She can 3:17:37.240 --> 3:17:41.600 do whatever she damn well wants. Yeah, I mean that's 3:17:41.680 --> 3:17:43.879 that's that's the kind of talking that should get somebody 3:17:43.920 --> 3:17:51.080 slapped upside the head. Yeah yeah. Um. The uh. The 3:17:51.120 --> 3:17:53.720 next thing you have here is the group is elitist, 3:17:53.800 --> 3:17:56.840 claiming a special exalted status for itself, it's leader and 3:17:56.879 --> 3:17:59.840 it's members. The leader is And I'm interested in kind 3:17:59.840 --> 3:18:02.160 of because you you have you have elements of this 3:18:02.320 --> 3:18:05.480 right um with it, like the sheep dog thing. We're 3:18:05.560 --> 3:18:07.600 kind of like the cop is the center of the 3:18:07.640 --> 3:18:10.959 cult for people who are not cop coults. I don't know, 3:18:11.120 --> 3:18:13.760 like does this exist, Like I don't see like cult, 3:18:13.879 --> 3:18:16.800 a cult leader sort of within this this thing. I 3:18:16.840 --> 3:18:19.080 think it's it's almost more nebulous than that, where this 3:18:19.160 --> 3:18:22.760 idea of the agent of the law is kind of 3:18:22.800 --> 3:18:24.800 the center of the cult that the people who are 3:18:24.879 --> 3:18:27.720 agents of the law buy into as well as folks 3:18:27.800 --> 3:18:30.039 outside of it. You know, I don't know. This is 3:18:30.280 --> 3:18:32.240 probably deserve any I mean, I'm interested in your thoughts 3:18:32.240 --> 3:18:36.440 on this. This probably deserves significantly more analysis than we're 3:18:36.480 --> 3:18:38.240 going to give it today. But I think it's a 3:18:38.240 --> 3:18:40.600 fascinating thing to think about. Right. It's kind of like 3:18:40.600 --> 3:18:43.520 how I when I put earlier that the criminal justice 3:18:43.520 --> 3:18:46.360 system is the direct substitute for God. It is God, 3:18:46.440 --> 3:18:48.840 the law is God. I mean, how many times have 3:18:48.879 --> 3:18:51.560 you gotten into a debate with someone where they'll be like, well, 3:18:51.720 --> 3:18:54.400 it's ethically fine because it's legal, and you're like, well, No, 3:18:54.560 --> 3:18:59.280 legality does not equal you know, ethical or moral and there. 3:18:59.400 --> 3:19:02.320 But there's these people in America who are just like, no, 3:19:02.400 --> 3:19:05.560 if it's legal, it's legal, that means it's okay. Yeah. 3:19:05.600 --> 3:19:09.320 And the elitism, Yeah, it's obvious. I mean if you've 3:19:09.360 --> 3:19:11.680 met it's kind of a religious belief though that like, yeah, 3:19:11.879 --> 3:19:14.600 it's illegal, so it's bad. She there were a criminal, 3:19:14.680 --> 3:19:19.519 so they deserved X. Like making a making a homebrewed 3:19:19.520 --> 3:19:21.560 cleric that believed in the law for D and D 3:19:21.760 --> 3:19:25.040 was pretty easy, uh, to be like, yeah, this is 3:19:25.080 --> 3:19:28.880 a church, this is a religion. Um, yeah it is. 3:19:28.959 --> 3:19:31.039 It is the sheep dog 'm on on sheep and 3:19:31.080 --> 3:19:32.879 the you know, it's us against the wolves and blah 3:19:32.879 --> 3:19:35.840 blah blah. And then we have a guy's name in 3:19:35.879 --> 3:19:39.200 here that I won't say for anonymity. But we had 3:19:39.240 --> 3:19:41.200 we had a Braska a lieutenant that would give us 3:19:41.200 --> 3:19:44.760 these prepared speeches whenever he thought someone's morale was getting low, 3:19:45.879 --> 3:19:48.280 where he would talk about how and he was wrong 3:19:48.480 --> 3:19:52.760 that the word sheriff comes from uh like Sanskrit or 3:19:52.840 --> 3:19:56.959 Arabic sharif, which is not true. It comes from shire Reeve. 3:19:57.000 --> 3:19:59.840 It's old English, just squished because English is a hideous 3:19:59.879 --> 3:20:03.640 l which Um, but he had to. I mean, I 3:20:04.120 --> 3:20:06.400 can't count how many times he told me that exact 3:20:06.400 --> 3:20:10.400 same speech to my face, over and over again, as 3:20:10.440 --> 3:20:12.839 if it was the first time I was hearing the story. 3:20:13.480 --> 3:20:15.640 And it's to me that was another thing to click 3:20:15.680 --> 3:20:17.440 where I'm like, God, it's like talking, It's like a 3:20:17.480 --> 3:20:21.240 call and response when you're in church. Sometimes. Yeah, any 3:20:21.240 --> 3:20:24.800 time you confront a religious person, they just to have 3:20:25.000 --> 3:20:29.119 that that that that dogmatic skeew that regurgitates and just like, well, 3:20:29.160 --> 3:20:31.039 here's my opinion that I was told by someone who 3:20:31.040 --> 3:20:35.560 told me. Okay, So Alexander, UM, we've got more to say. 3:20:35.560 --> 3:20:37.400 You've got a lot more that you've written here. Um, 3:20:37.560 --> 3:20:39.640 we're gonna we've gone kind of a little over the 3:20:39.680 --> 3:20:41.640 time we had here. So I want to have you 3:20:41.720 --> 3:20:44.960 back on tomorrow for part two of this. Before we 3:20:45.080 --> 3:20:47.400 roll out, do you have anything you'd like to plug? 3:20:48.080 --> 3:20:53.440 Maybe the Washington State Patrol? No, Um, No, I don't 3:20:53.440 --> 3:20:55.920 really have anything to plug. I'm I'm never say die 3:20:56.160 --> 3:20:59.160 where all the easier threes because I'm that elder nerd 3:20:59.360 --> 3:21:04.760 from the ninety Yeah, and uh saw hackers in the theater. 3:21:04.840 --> 3:21:08.040 I it's claimed to fame on Twitter if you want 3:21:08.040 --> 3:21:14.200 to come see me. How are your hips doing? I 3:21:14.320 --> 3:21:19.360 talk about that. It's okay, Garrison's never seen Wayne's World. 3:21:20.480 --> 3:21:24.840 Oh I know that's true. That's true. Too young. I 3:21:24.879 --> 3:21:27.680 tried to show Wayne's World to my brother, who's still 3:21:27.720 --> 3:21:30.879 like five years older than Garrison, and did not take. 3:21:31.320 --> 3:21:35.520 Didn't take. It's it's a it's a time thing. My 3:21:35.720 --> 3:21:38.560 oldest is about four years younger than Garrison, and they've 3:21:38.600 --> 3:22:04.200 seen Wayne's World. I'm just wow. Okay, uh oh where 3:22:04.240 --> 3:22:08.199 it's us? The podcast that we are. It could happen 3:22:08.240 --> 3:22:13.640 here behind the podcast bad stuff. It could happen here, 3:22:14.000 --> 3:22:16.720 it is, it could happen here. Okay. Well, Part two 3:22:16.760 --> 3:22:19.879 of Why Police Are Occult? Thanks Garrison, Thanks for doing 3:22:19.920 --> 3:22:23.080 the job that is one of our jobs, certainly, but 3:22:23.400 --> 3:22:29.200 apparently not mine. Alexander Williams back again, Um, Alexander? How 3:22:29.240 --> 3:22:32.119 are you? How are you feeling good? Is your life 3:22:32.160 --> 3:22:34.320 in a radically different place now than it was when 3:22:34.320 --> 3:22:41.120 we ended part one? Oh? Yeah? Like no, Well that's 3:22:41.120 --> 3:22:43.720 for the best, because anything that would change in about 3:22:43.760 --> 3:22:46.360 the thirty seconds between these episodes probably would not have 3:22:46.440 --> 3:22:49.959 been a positive change. You're letting the magic out. People 3:22:49.959 --> 3:22:55.240 are gonna know. Yeah, they should know already. Uh So 3:22:56.280 --> 3:22:58.080 the next thing you've got here in terms of cult 3:22:58.160 --> 3:23:02.400 characteristics that you saw inside the police is the group 3:23:02.400 --> 3:23:04.960 has a polarized us versus them mentality, which may cause 3:23:05.040 --> 3:23:10.280 conflict with the wider society. Um yeah, And I think 3:23:10.280 --> 3:23:12.520 this is the one that like, yeah, we've all we 3:23:12.560 --> 3:23:15.160 all kind of saw that one. Actually, are you sure 3:23:15.160 --> 3:23:18.760 about that one? I'm not convinced. Yeah, it was a 3:23:18.840 --> 3:23:24.920 Eureka moment, right Yeah. Um, I do think it's probably 3:23:24.920 --> 3:23:27.600 worth a little bit of exploration about like what it 3:23:27.800 --> 3:23:33.840 means emotionally to be told like I want to defund 3:23:33.920 --> 3:23:36.680 or even abolish the police as a police officer, Like 3:23:36.760 --> 3:23:43.560 that's that's a um yeah. Yeah. I remember the first 3:23:43.600 --> 3:23:46.480 time that I heard that, the concept of it when 3:23:46.480 --> 3:23:48.280 I was a cop. I think I was about five 3:23:48.360 --> 3:23:52.240 years away from getting out, um, and it blew my mind. 3:23:52.280 --> 3:23:54.560 It was it was like I'm like, you don't know, 3:23:54.680 --> 3:23:56.959 we don't have enough funding, Like how how in the world? 3:23:57.360 --> 3:23:59.720 But we can't do our job because you know, in 3:23:59.760 --> 3:24:03.920 our in my head, we're we're the thing holding society up. 3:24:03.959 --> 3:24:08.320 If we're not here, everything falls apart and crumbles. Um. 3:24:08.520 --> 3:24:10.600 So the idea of being told like we need to 3:24:10.640 --> 3:24:14.120 defund the police. For cops, it's it's an attack on 3:24:14.200 --> 3:24:16.720 your values and your role in the world. It's also 3:24:16.720 --> 3:24:20.480 attack on like your personal life because because your life 3:24:20.520 --> 3:24:23.600 is police as well, right, and and and it's and 3:24:23.640 --> 3:24:26.240 it's like you're you've you've been talking a lot about 3:24:26.240 --> 3:24:29.119 how the job becomes such a central part of your 3:24:29.120 --> 3:24:32.600 identity that it's not even just attacking like your paycheck, 3:24:32.640 --> 3:24:35.520 but it's attacking like your essence now as a person. 3:24:36.120 --> 3:24:38.200 It is it's like if you've ever had a debate 3:24:38.240 --> 3:24:43.240 with with an extremely like evangelical religious person, it's the 3:24:43.240 --> 3:24:44.879 same as trying to tell a cop like, hey, you 3:24:44.920 --> 3:24:47.760 don't actually hold society up. You're not exactly as important 3:24:47.800 --> 3:24:50.720 as you think you are. Um And like I said, like, 3:24:50.760 --> 3:24:52.600 we don't get we don't get paid very much. Health 3:24:52.640 --> 3:24:56.480 insurance usually isn't that good um our our unions that 3:24:56.560 --> 3:24:59.199 we toad as being the best, we're usually pretty corrupt um. 3:25:00.080 --> 3:25:02.440 And they don't really go to bat for us and 3:25:02.480 --> 3:25:04.160 get us the good health insurance and get us the 3:25:04.200 --> 3:25:06.800 good pay. They get us just enough. And so when 3:25:06.800 --> 3:25:09.240 a cop here's like, hey, we defund the police, it's 3:25:09.280 --> 3:25:13.280 like from our perspective, we think what we're hearing is 3:25:13.400 --> 3:25:15.680 we don't appreciate you. We already think you get paid 3:25:15.680 --> 3:25:18.760 too much. We we think of it less about like 3:25:18.840 --> 3:25:21.520 the structure of law enforcement, and we think it personally 3:25:21.520 --> 3:25:24.680 of like, oh, you don't think my kids should have dinner? Yeah, 3:25:25.080 --> 3:25:28.400 and that's uh, I mean, yeah, of course that has 3:25:28.520 --> 3:25:30.959 like of course it ends the way that we saw 3:25:30.959 --> 3:25:33.560 it in you know, or at least it continues the 3:25:33.600 --> 3:25:36.520 way we saw it and continue last year, right, And 3:25:37.120 --> 3:25:40.840 and it's I think it could help like people like 3:25:40.920 --> 3:25:42.840 us are on one side of the line and you know, 3:25:42.959 --> 3:25:44.240 the other people are on the other side of the 3:25:44.280 --> 3:25:47.040 line still, and I think it could help people on 3:25:47.080 --> 3:25:49.520 our side of the of the of the barricades to 3:25:49.680 --> 3:25:53.360 understand just how willing these guys are to do things 3:25:53.800 --> 3:25:56.879 and things that they wouldn't normally do, things that you 3:25:56.879 --> 3:26:00.240 would never consider doing on your own, but for the 3:26:00.320 --> 3:26:04.680 job and as an order, they'll do it because again, 3:26:04.720 --> 3:26:08.039 it's part of their identity, and it's it's there. You know, 3:26:08.080 --> 3:26:10.640 you're attacking me, You're also attacking my family, You're you're 3:26:11.680 --> 3:26:14.280 it goes back to that grossman thing of being told 3:26:14.320 --> 3:26:18.879 a lot of Um, no matter what you do, you 3:26:18.959 --> 3:26:21.400 go home tonight. So no matter what I do on 3:26:21.440 --> 3:26:24.000 my shift, I go home tonight. It's better to be 3:26:24.400 --> 3:26:30.599 judged by twelve and carried by six. Yeah that one. Yeah, 3:26:32.040 --> 3:26:34.200 Like I'm thinking of like the police of the riot line, 3:26:34.200 --> 3:26:36.720 and yeah, you can see them being like middle aged 3:26:36.720 --> 3:26:40.160 conservative dudes, like look at all these like fucking like 3:26:40.440 --> 3:26:43.560 gay queer teenagers throwing suffet me. Right, it's like the 3:26:43.640 --> 3:26:46.560 specific thing you're like, oh you you like I'm getting 3:26:46.600 --> 3:26:48.920 attacked by like the lowest of the low society. I'm 3:26:49.080 --> 3:26:52.120 being attacked by like did like degenerates and like this 3:26:52.320 --> 3:26:56.280 weird kind of scum. I'm actually what society should be. 3:26:56.560 --> 3:26:58.920 The people that are fighting against me are like this 3:26:59.040 --> 3:27:01.959 weird anti so sual thing, right, That's that's how it 3:27:02.040 --> 3:27:06.040 is from their perspective. Um, when almost an actuality. I've 3:27:06.080 --> 3:27:09.440 been I've been slowly kind of appropriating that type of 3:27:09.520 --> 3:27:11.960 language for when I see a cop do something horrible, 3:27:12.000 --> 3:27:15.120 I'm like, wow, look at that, like anti social, violent freak. 3:27:15.440 --> 3:27:18.359 Because you can look at that language because it flips 3:27:18.400 --> 3:27:22.400 the way we usually view like aesthetics. When you know, 3:27:22.720 --> 3:27:25.760 because like when you see someone do something horribly horribly violent, 3:27:25.840 --> 3:27:27.800 but they addressed in a uniform. It is it has 3:27:27.840 --> 3:27:30.400 the appearance of being proper, but like, no, that actually 3:27:30.440 --> 3:27:33.520 still is anti social and extremely violent. So I think 3:27:33.959 --> 3:27:37.240 I've been playing around with like flip flipping that language, 3:27:37.280 --> 3:27:39.160 but you can definitely see it on the cops faces 3:27:39.480 --> 3:27:42.480 when a whole bunch of like young queer as fun 3:27:42.600 --> 3:27:45.920 people are throwing water bottles at them. Oh yeah, you can't. 3:27:45.959 --> 3:27:47.640 And and the thing that to the thing to remember 3:27:47.680 --> 3:27:51.640 about most cops is they're there. Their ego is paper thin, 3:27:51.959 --> 3:27:55.360 their skin. They cannot take a joke, they cannot take 3:27:55.360 --> 3:27:58.680 an insult. The the number of cops that I would see, 3:27:58.760 --> 3:28:00.320 and I would argue that I saw some of the 3:28:00.360 --> 3:28:03.440 worst worst behavior than on the streets, because because inside 3:28:03.480 --> 3:28:05.760 the jail you're you know, you're in your own little world. 3:28:05.840 --> 3:28:08.120 You're inside these walls. The public can't see you unless 3:28:08.120 --> 3:28:11.160 you're on camera and prebody cameras, you know where all 3:28:11.160 --> 3:28:15.600 the cameras are. And I the the amount of guys 3:28:15.640 --> 3:28:17.960 that like an inmate would call them like the f 3:28:18.080 --> 3:28:23.000 slur or any other slur, and the cop would just snap, 3:28:23.400 --> 3:28:28.680 we just lose their mind. And me and another couple 3:28:28.720 --> 3:28:30.440 other guys being the only kind of cops that would 3:28:30.440 --> 3:28:32.000 get in the guy's way and be like no. And 3:28:32.040 --> 3:28:34.400 it was never we couldn't say no, that's wrong, don't 3:28:34.400 --> 3:28:36.800 do that. It was always no, it's not worth it, 3:28:36.879 --> 3:28:39.400 or no, you're gonna get in trouble, or no, you 3:28:39.400 --> 3:28:42.160 know if you do that, he wins man, because if 3:28:42.200 --> 3:28:46.080 we said don't do that, it's wrong, we may have 3:28:46.200 --> 3:28:48.400 we may have stopped that bad thing from happening, but 3:28:48.680 --> 3:28:52.560 we have now marked ourselves as being, you know, potential 3:28:52.640 --> 3:29:00.200 apostates against the close. Um. So yeah, that's yeah, calling 3:29:00.240 --> 3:29:02.760 them names works. Six and stones do breaktops bones, Like, 3:29:02.840 --> 3:29:05.080 oh boy, it does work. Like in terms of if 3:29:05.200 --> 3:29:09.840 if the goal is make them extremely angry, yes, it 3:29:09.920 --> 3:29:16.440 doesn't work. It's yeah. Obviously the next one you've got 3:29:16.520 --> 3:29:19.720 is the leader. The leader is not accountable to any authorities, um, 3:29:19.840 --> 3:29:22.960 which the police regulate and investigate themselves. That's one of 3:29:23.000 --> 3:29:25.879 the most basic ones. But it does it kind of, 3:29:25.879 --> 3:29:28.800 It does lead to this, like it is interesting to 3:29:28.840 --> 3:29:32.879 think about the way the Church of Scientology handles uh 3:29:33.040 --> 3:29:36.120 misbehavior from its agents and the way that like a 3:29:36.160 --> 3:29:39.080 police department does. Because there's not a ton of daylight 3:29:39.160 --> 3:29:41.960 betwixt the two, there's not listening to you the l 3:29:42.040 --> 3:29:45.000 Ron episodes. Anyone who hasn't listened to them, go back 3:29:45.000 --> 3:29:47.800 and listen to them. They're fantastic. One of my favorites. 3:29:48.400 --> 3:29:51.280 Um yeah, listening to that. And the way that they're 3:29:51.280 --> 3:29:55.680 a little internalized security system was structured was very, very 3:29:55.760 --> 3:29:59.080 analog to exactly what happens in law enforcement when they're 3:29:59.080 --> 3:30:05.160 sowing so policing themselves b s because god they don't. 3:30:05.959 --> 3:30:09.879 They'll do every little thing to manipulate the situation to 3:30:10.000 --> 3:30:12.200 have the cop come out on top and not be 3:30:12.240 --> 3:30:15.560 in trouble because who's gonna all them responsible? That my 3:30:15.600 --> 3:30:19.280 own guy at my own department's interviewing me. We've known 3:30:19.320 --> 3:30:22.080 each other since you were kids, or I've known his dad, 3:30:22.240 --> 3:30:25.320 or his dad's known me, or or he's you know, 3:30:25.560 --> 3:30:29.720 related or whatever. It never works when the you know, 3:30:29.760 --> 3:30:33.480 the watchmen are watching themselves. It doesn't work. I don't 3:30:33.480 --> 3:30:36.600 know how. We don't, well I do, you know how, 3:30:36.760 --> 3:30:39.400 But I really wish there was if we do have 3:30:39.480 --> 3:30:44.800 to still have law enforcement, civilian oversight with actual power, 3:30:45.680 --> 3:30:48.840 actual authority to do. Yeah, that's that's the thing is 3:30:48.840 --> 3:30:51.000 that everywhere and a lot of the times that's been 3:30:51.640 --> 3:30:56.279 try to put into legislator. It doesn't. It's always like neutered, 3:30:56.440 --> 3:30:59.959 It's always like and I'm like, I've I've seen version 3:31:00.040 --> 3:31:03.080 of it pop up in Portland and it just never 3:31:03.240 --> 3:31:07.080 does anything. Yeah, And that's I mean, obviously the whole 3:31:07.200 --> 3:31:11.119 the question of is to what extent can increasing civilian 3:31:11.160 --> 3:31:14.280 oversight UH solve problems? To what extent is it like 3:31:15.080 --> 3:31:19.039 papering over them? Those are all things worth discussing. UM. 3:31:19.080 --> 3:31:20.959 I think I want to kind of keep us focused 3:31:21.040 --> 3:31:25.280 on the mindset that that inflcates, because that that's the 3:31:25.320 --> 3:31:28.440 thing that I don't think people get in part because 3:31:28.480 --> 3:31:31.440 like most people who are part of these abolitionous movements, 3:31:31.480 --> 3:31:33.480 most people who are are on the sides that we 3:31:33.560 --> 3:31:37.160 are on this um either probably don't know a police 3:31:37.160 --> 3:31:39.720 officer very well apart and certainly almost most of them 3:31:39.720 --> 3:31:42.840 have not been police officers. And I'm kind of wondering, 3:31:44.800 --> 3:31:48.199 what are you actually scared of doing as a police officer, 3:31:48.920 --> 3:31:51.800 Like what what what are you actually scared of in 3:31:51.920 --> 3:31:55.280 terms of like the blowback, the fault, Like, what what 3:31:55.400 --> 3:31:57.760 is it you actually get worried about if it's not 3:31:59.000 --> 3:32:01.280 pissing off everyone else in the city who wasn't a cop, 3:32:01.360 --> 3:32:06.320 you know. So Yeah, what it comes down to is, uh, 3:32:06.360 --> 3:32:09.280 you know that the the church of law, the Church 3:32:09.320 --> 3:32:13.800 of criminal justice, and what they're scared of is so 3:32:13.840 --> 3:32:17.600 if I get a dirty cop who's not blatantly doing 3:32:17.680 --> 3:32:19.920 something bad, like he just he hit a guy too 3:32:19.920 --> 3:32:24.600 hard or something, it's something that hasn't hit the news yet. Um, 3:32:24.640 --> 3:32:27.720 but I have to morally, like ethically, on paper, I'm 3:32:27.800 --> 3:32:30.520 required to have an I A division investigate these people. 3:32:31.440 --> 3:32:35.040 The reason that in my head when I was there 3:32:35.320 --> 3:32:38.480 and being interviewed for these things, it's because you have 3:32:38.600 --> 3:32:42.879 to hold up the infallibility of the law. It doesn't 3:32:42.959 --> 3:32:47.400 matter what really happened. All that matters is what's in 3:32:47.480 --> 3:32:49.879 black and white on paper in our files. If we 3:32:49.920 --> 3:32:53.760 ever get audited by a federal body and we can say, look, 3:32:53.840 --> 3:32:56.400 a bad thing happened, Yes we investigated it, here's what 3:32:56.520 --> 3:32:59.840 Here were the results. And it's all about holding up 3:33:00.080 --> 3:33:04.080 the infallibility of the law, because if it really gets 3:33:04.080 --> 3:33:06.800 out and cops really get in trouble for stuff like 3:33:06.840 --> 3:33:08.879 some of the stuff that's been happening where cops are 3:33:08.879 --> 3:33:13.760 actually being convicted finally for doing terrible things, it erodes 3:33:14.400 --> 3:33:17.959 the blind faith that the masses have in law enforcement. 3:33:18.000 --> 3:33:21.160 Because I've heard people here in Utah, which is a 3:33:21.280 --> 3:33:24.840 very conservative place, look at some of those shootings that 3:33:24.879 --> 3:33:26.880 have happened where the cops have actually been found guilty 3:33:26.920 --> 3:33:29.920 and they've actually been like, oh wow, like I never 3:33:29.959 --> 3:33:31.960 once thought a cop would do this, And it doesn't 3:33:32.000 --> 3:33:34.039 sound like much, but in their head, that's that's a 3:33:34.080 --> 3:33:38.600 seed that's setting in their consciousness. And that's that's the 3:33:38.640 --> 3:33:41.960 whole point of the blue wall of silence and keeping 3:33:41.959 --> 3:33:47.040 everything in the house is if everybody realizes that we're 3:33:47.080 --> 3:33:49.520 just a little weird man behind a curtain, you know, 3:33:49.600 --> 3:33:51.800 the Wizard of Oz doesn't work anymore. We have to 3:33:51.879 --> 3:33:57.039 maintain this false image that we are infallible and we 3:33:57.080 --> 3:33:59.440 know we know exactly what we're doing, and we are 3:33:59.480 --> 3:34:02.480 taking care of you. You have to believe that. So 3:34:02.520 --> 3:34:08.440 they'll do anything to maintain the lie. Wow. Yeah that 3:34:08.480 --> 3:34:13.240 makes sense. It's bleak, but it makes sense. Yeah, it 3:34:13.320 --> 3:34:20.640 felt bleeping in there. This ties into kind of the 3:34:20.640 --> 3:34:23.200 the role of like lying right and and and the 3:34:23.280 --> 3:34:25.080 kind of the cult thing you're tying this into is 3:34:25.120 --> 3:34:29.160 that like colts will often talk about how the things 3:34:29.160 --> 3:34:30.880 the cult is doing are so important that you can 3:34:30.920 --> 3:34:32.879 do terrible things to achieve them. Right. You see this 3:34:32.920 --> 3:34:35.800 in the Church of Scientology and their dirty tricks programs. 3:34:35.840 --> 3:34:39.160 Sent and On had its its version of this. Um 3:34:39.200 --> 3:34:41.080 and you you've written here we are taught to lie 3:34:41.160 --> 3:34:43.240 to get what we need. It's only true if it's 3:34:43.240 --> 3:34:45.560 on tape or written down. As long as it looks good, 3:34:45.640 --> 3:34:49.520 it is good. Um and I uh, I mean it. 3:34:49.640 --> 3:34:53.000 It made me think, among other things, of a guy 3:34:53.040 --> 3:34:58.520 I used to know who became a local prosecutor. Um 3:34:58.760 --> 3:35:03.160 and eventually quick it because he kept being assured by 3:35:03.280 --> 3:35:06.480 police officers that like something that they had put in 3:35:06.680 --> 3:35:09.160 like the charging document was true, and then being unable 3:35:09.200 --> 3:35:12.199 to prove it in court. Um and it it pissed 3:35:12.240 --> 3:35:16.760 him off after a period of time. Um And I'm interested, 3:35:16.879 --> 3:35:21.440 like in the I'm sure like obviously some fraction of 3:35:21.480 --> 3:35:24.039 people doing it are just like just literally don't give 3:35:24.040 --> 3:35:26.920 a ship. But how does someone who actually does have 3:35:27.000 --> 3:35:30.800 a moral compass and believe in the law. How does 3:35:30.840 --> 3:35:38.519 someone who really believes justify lying to screw somebody over. Um. 3:35:39.760 --> 3:35:42.200 So as the guy who was there, who had morals, 3:35:42.200 --> 3:35:46.200 which is why I'm not there anymore, I couldn't all right, 3:35:46.240 --> 3:35:48.600 And I actually got in trouble on a couple of 3:35:48.640 --> 3:35:54.160 instances of everybody was going one way on a story 3:35:54.360 --> 3:35:57.640 and I was going in the opposite direction, and without 3:35:58.080 --> 3:36:00.720 using blatant terms, they use all the like the little 3:36:01.640 --> 3:36:04.320 you know, legal legal fuckory terms to not say what 3:36:04.400 --> 3:36:06.600 they're trying to say, but implying and getting it across 3:36:06.640 --> 3:36:08.280 to you of like you need to get on the 3:36:08.320 --> 3:36:11.160 same page, you need to tow the line, you need 3:36:11.200 --> 3:36:14.800 to you need to get in here. And I could 3:36:14.879 --> 3:36:19.000 never do it. I just I don't know, it's just 3:36:19.040 --> 3:36:22.520 my moral fiber won't let me do that kind of thing. Um. 3:36:22.560 --> 3:36:26.920 I once was told by a lieutenant that I had 3:36:27.120 --> 3:36:29.920 my moral fiber was too high, Like he literally told me, 3:36:29.920 --> 3:36:31.520 because you can't expect everyone else to live up to 3:36:31.560 --> 3:36:36.040 your moral standards. And I'm like, dude, we're we're supposed 3:36:36.080 --> 3:36:39.760 to be like a little bit above the typical moral standard. 3:36:39.800 --> 3:36:43.039 We're supposed to be the example of how you know, 3:36:43.240 --> 3:36:48.240 our civilians, our citizens are supposed to act. But it 3:36:48.280 --> 3:36:51.879 wasn't the truth. Yeah, I mean, my first I think 3:36:51.959 --> 3:36:55.080 kind of radicalizing thing very early on was just like 3:36:55.120 --> 3:36:57.520 the fake drug scandal in Dallas, was realizing that like 3:36:57.560 --> 3:37:03.240 on a significant scale. Uh, local police had been planting 3:37:03.560 --> 3:37:05.920 ship on people in order to charge them. People have 3:37:06.000 --> 3:37:11.279 gone to prison, which happens other places too. But like, yeah, um, 3:37:11.320 --> 3:37:14.600 and I'm the bulk of the work making something like 3:37:14.640 --> 3:37:17.279 that happen, isn't the people who are planting the fake drugs? 3:37:17.280 --> 3:37:19.720 The people who realize that the department will look bad 3:37:19.760 --> 3:37:22.120 if it gets out and then dedicate themselves to stopping 3:37:22.120 --> 3:37:25.280 it from getting out even beyond because you have you know, 3:37:25.520 --> 3:37:27.480 X number of people are willing to plant plant fake 3:37:27.560 --> 3:37:29.600 drugs on a guy, but a much larger number of 3:37:29.600 --> 3:37:31.400 people are willing to try to cover that up. So 3:37:31.440 --> 3:37:33.959 it's not a problem. That's That's the thing I really 3:37:34.000 --> 3:37:37.039 appreciate about, Alex. You're framing of this in terms of 3:37:37.080 --> 3:37:40.400 like their main or not one of the main motivations 3:37:40.480 --> 3:37:44.080 is not, you know, actually doing the job itself. It's 3:37:44.080 --> 3:37:48.520 about it's about making sure that their reality and by extension, 3:37:48.560 --> 3:37:50.720 what they want everyone else as a reality to be, 3:37:51.160 --> 3:37:53.680 to stay the same. Like they all of the effort 3:37:53.760 --> 3:37:57.160 into whether that be lying for supposedly in their view, 3:37:57.280 --> 3:37:59.560 like moral reasons and all, that's kind of work. It's 3:37:59.600 --> 3:38:03.840 it's it's it's to maintain the specific version of reality. 3:38:03.879 --> 3:38:06.240 It's not it's not actually for like like it's it's 3:38:06.280 --> 3:38:10.280 it's not for like actually promoting what is like the 3:38:10.360 --> 3:38:12.920 law and the books by any means. It's it's it's 3:38:12.959 --> 3:38:15.480 it's the it's the thing like in hot fuzz, it's 3:38:15.520 --> 3:38:17.680 for the greater good. That's that's what that is. That 3:38:17.800 --> 3:38:20.160 is what they're trying to That's what they're trying to do. 3:38:20.360 --> 3:38:23.800 So even if they like, as long as their reality 3:38:23.879 --> 3:38:28.240 is maintained, then you know, we have some semblance of 3:38:28.280 --> 3:38:30.840 like order in the world, whether that be you know, 3:38:31.040 --> 3:38:36.840 this nostalgic, semi like proto militaristic nationalist version of order. 3:38:37.080 --> 3:38:39.760 But that's that's that's the thing that wants to be maintained. 3:38:39.840 --> 3:38:43.680 So every every task, everything that they're doing isn't just 3:38:43.720 --> 3:38:46.560 a simple task. It's all in the overall effort of 3:38:46.640 --> 3:38:51.400 maintaining this like this perception um and and that's a 3:38:52.520 --> 3:38:58.320 a much more I think interesting way to think about police. Yeah, 3:38:58.320 --> 3:39:01.240 it really is. Uh, these guys in like in pill talk, 3:39:01.240 --> 3:39:02.920 these guys would take the blue pill and a heartbeat 3:39:02.920 --> 3:39:05.320 and then they don't rest Morpheus for trying to deal drugs. 3:39:05.360 --> 3:39:08.080 Like that's how dedicated. These guys are too staying inside 3:39:08.120 --> 3:39:13.400 this version of their reality. Now, um, I kind of 3:39:13.520 --> 3:39:17.560 let's move on next to um, the next kind of 3:39:17.560 --> 3:39:20.120 cult aspect, the leadership induces feelings of shame and or 3:39:20.160 --> 3:39:22.600 guilt in order to influence and control members. And you're 3:39:22.600 --> 3:39:27.600 talking you've litten down here, toxic masculinity and the warrior mindset. Yeah. Um, 3:39:27.640 --> 3:39:29.760 do you have any kind of like case examples of 3:39:29.800 --> 3:39:32.960 how that that actually looks of like kind of using 3:39:32.959 --> 3:39:34.840 shame or guilt to people who aren't kind of in 3:39:34.920 --> 3:39:39.480 the this quote quote unquote warrior mindset. H Yeah, I 3:39:39.480 --> 3:39:42.360 mean it happened a lot. Um, there was a lot 3:39:42.360 --> 3:39:44.840 of Monday night quarterbacking that would happen, especially with the 3:39:44.879 --> 3:39:48.680 advent of like cameras and things becoming more popular. Uh 3:39:49.240 --> 3:39:51.440 I love my body camera. That was my little best friend. 3:39:51.560 --> 3:39:54.200 But we would go you know, you go back and 3:39:54.200 --> 3:39:57.400 you'd watch videos of incidents and things, and if somebody 3:39:57.560 --> 3:40:00.280 wasn't like engaging fast enough, they would get real did 3:40:00.360 --> 3:40:03.000 hard like haze and you know, made fun of and 3:40:03.040 --> 3:40:06.600 mocked it. And when you were in this, you know, 3:40:06.879 --> 3:40:09.720 we're a family mindset, and you're you know, we're we 3:40:09.879 --> 3:40:11.760 got each other's backs and we only understand each other, 3:40:11.800 --> 3:40:13.600 and then all of a sudden, you're on the outside 3:40:13.640 --> 3:40:18.280 because you dared to have even a remotely moderate to 3:40:18.400 --> 3:40:21.800 liberal position on anything, or you didn't jump in on 3:40:21.840 --> 3:40:23.640 the you know, the the ass beating on something to 3:40:23.840 --> 3:40:28.160 fast enough, they turn on you fast. Like. The only 3:40:28.200 --> 3:40:31.240 thing I could compare it to is like you know 3:40:31.480 --> 3:40:35.080 every eighties and like nineties military movie or or you 3:40:35.080 --> 3:40:37.200 know nerds movie where people just haze the ship out 3:40:37.200 --> 3:40:40.360 of each other, and it's that that dude brow everyone's 3:40:40.360 --> 3:40:44.160 got a our wire sun tattoo on their bicep, just 3:40:45.040 --> 3:40:48.720 rampant everywhere. I mean, it permeated the whole place. That 3:40:48.800 --> 3:40:50.200 drove me that that was one of the things that 3:40:50.200 --> 3:40:51.960 really drove me next, because I've never been that kind 3:40:52.000 --> 3:40:57.200 of guy. I've always been a a more of a 3:40:57.200 --> 3:41:00.400 a de escalation person and a book reader. And then 3:41:00.400 --> 3:41:03.160 I think it helps explain a lot why you see 3:41:03.200 --> 3:41:05.000 some of these videos where it's just like why did 3:41:05.000 --> 3:41:06.640 they go to zero to ten from zero to tend 3:41:06.720 --> 3:41:08.879 so fast with well, because somebody's gonna make fun of 3:41:08.879 --> 3:41:12.080 them and call them names if they don't go hard enough, 3:41:12.080 --> 3:41:14.400 fast enough on somebody when they do certain things like 3:41:14.600 --> 3:41:17.320 and yeah, the zero to a hundred thing also ties 3:41:17.360 --> 3:41:20.080 into that whole, that whole hyper vigilance thing that always 3:41:20.120 --> 3:41:25.360 being um a compressed spring, and then it ties back 3:41:25.400 --> 3:41:28.360 into that warrior mindset of like they tell you flat 3:41:28.360 --> 3:41:30.680 out like if anyone ever attacks you, they're trying to 3:41:30.720 --> 3:41:33.320 kill you. It's it's there's there's no offens or, but 3:41:33.520 --> 3:41:35.000 you need to act like they're trying to kill you, 3:41:35.080 --> 3:41:37.080 because it goes back to the whole I'm going home 3:41:37.240 --> 3:41:40.000 at the end of the shift kind of thing. And 3:41:40.080 --> 3:41:43.480 once once that's ingrained itself into like your muscle memory, 3:41:43.480 --> 3:41:46.160 and that becomes the reflex, that becomes the thought that 3:41:46.280 --> 3:41:50.360 passes in front of your mind when a critical incident happens, 3:41:51.240 --> 3:41:52.920 then that's how you're gonna act, and you're gonna do 3:41:53.040 --> 3:41:54.720 and you're gonna go from zero to a hundred because 3:41:54.720 --> 3:41:57.760 you're going to assume that any little furtive movement movement, 3:41:57.800 --> 3:42:02.640 which god, there's that language furtive movement UM, any little 3:42:02.680 --> 3:42:05.039 movement that someone makes, like that's that's a green light. 3:42:05.080 --> 3:42:08.800 That's an excuse that I can end whatever interaction I'm 3:42:08.840 --> 3:42:12.600 having with this person with violence because they flinched enough 3:42:12.600 --> 3:42:17.800 where I think, Okay, I got this, Yeah, Jesus. Now 3:42:18.360 --> 3:42:20.640 one of the next ones you have here is talking 3:42:20.640 --> 3:42:23.160 about recruitment, which obviously COLT STU, but also like it's 3:42:23.160 --> 3:42:26.200 a job and jobs do this constantly recruiting. I'm kind 3:42:26.200 --> 3:42:30.480 of wondering because you've you've listed here things like Explorer programs, 3:42:30.480 --> 3:42:32.600 which are like r OTC or the Boy Scouts kind 3:42:32.600 --> 3:42:35.600 of these different one of which Kyle Rittenhouse did like 3:42:35.640 --> 3:42:38.560 ways in which kind of people get onboarded. I'm wondering 3:42:38.640 --> 3:42:41.400 sort of what how you see how you see police 3:42:41.400 --> 3:42:44.760 recruitment as kind of different in a fundamentally cult your way. 3:42:44.800 --> 3:42:49.960 Then you know, every job has to bring in new people, right, like, yeah, 3:42:49.959 --> 3:42:52.840 it's it's it didn't used to be this way. But 3:42:52.879 --> 3:42:55.000 I think in the in the two thousands, especially when 3:42:55.240 --> 3:42:58.680 numbers staffing numbers really started to drop because it's I 3:42:58.680 --> 3:43:00.480 don't know if they've just realized it isn't worth it 3:43:00.520 --> 3:43:03.120 or they found somewhere better to get paid. But employment's 3:43:03.120 --> 3:43:05.560 gone down for law enforcement, and so recruitment goes up 3:43:05.600 --> 3:43:09.959 in response. But now they have a more active role 3:43:09.959 --> 3:43:12.520 in most places where it's almost on part of the military. 3:43:12.920 --> 3:43:15.520 They'll go to job fairs they go to high school 3:43:15.560 --> 3:43:19.039 career days. Um, they didn't used to do that stuff. 3:43:19.040 --> 3:43:21.760 And when they do, they'll they'll find someone to like 3:43:22.280 --> 3:43:25.360 pull stuff out of the pulp cultures thatitgeist what we know? 3:43:25.400 --> 3:43:30.480 What cool? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, what can we what can 3:43:30.480 --> 3:43:33.240 we cash in on to try and draw these kids in, 3:43:33.280 --> 3:43:36.480 because just like the military, cops are looking to pull 3:43:36.520 --> 3:43:41.199 in disenfranchised kids who probably aren't going to go to college, 3:43:41.680 --> 3:43:45.440 don't think it's an option. And here's this job. All 3:43:45.480 --> 3:43:48.720 you need is a high school diploma. Here's the health insurance. 3:43:48.760 --> 3:43:52.120 Here's the retirement package, which is trash. But you're seventeen. 3:43:52.160 --> 3:43:53.560 You don't know that, you don't know how to read 3:43:53.600 --> 3:44:01.640 all this, but it looks real. Goal Yeah yeah, um yeah, 3:44:01.680 --> 3:44:03.840 they explore stuff. I mean you're familiar with that. So 3:44:04.080 --> 3:44:05.640 but yeah, they get little kids to go out and 3:44:05.720 --> 3:44:08.320 you know, the little baby cops and it's I mean, 3:44:08.360 --> 3:44:10.200 it's it's one of those things like some of this 3:44:10.280 --> 3:44:14.359 is so much deeper than even the the individual departments 3:44:14.400 --> 3:44:16.800 or any choice made by the police. Because like, as 3:44:16.800 --> 3:44:18.320 a kid, some of the first toys I had were 3:44:18.320 --> 3:44:21.880 cop toys, right, like everything every boy, I think, like, yes, 3:44:22.000 --> 3:44:23.840 some of the first what you're gonna get badge a gun, 3:44:23.959 --> 3:44:26.320 you're gonna play detective. You're gonna be watching cops shows, 3:44:26.320 --> 3:44:28.680 You're gonna be watching movies where cops are the And 3:44:28.760 --> 3:44:32.600 that's I mean that that's a bigger subject than today. 3:44:32.640 --> 3:44:35.600 But like, yeah, no, that is like what the one 3:44:35.600 --> 3:44:38.800 of the most prevalent forms of media that's instilled in 3:44:39.120 --> 3:44:42.600 young uh boys, I guess yeah. You know what else 3:44:42.680 --> 3:44:47.440 is instilled in young boys the love of capitalism and 3:44:47.520 --> 3:44:51.440 products and specifically products and services. Find a child and 3:44:51.560 --> 3:44:55.720 whisper the names of our sponsor into their ears, preferably 3:44:55.760 --> 3:44:59.039 a child that's yours. Hopefully know any child, any child 3:44:59.120 --> 3:45:02.000 throw something so there, parents look away and then leaned 3:45:02.040 --> 3:45:06.680 down and whisper better. You only counts if you get caught. 3:45:07.240 --> 3:45:11.000 We're back, um. And your next point was the group 3:45:11.080 --> 3:45:14.400 is preoccupied with making money, which is a huge thing 3:45:14.520 --> 3:45:18.120 for cults. Um, not all of them. There are some, 3:45:18.520 --> 3:45:20.560 like you know, there there are some cults that were 3:45:20.560 --> 3:45:25.600 shall we say pure um, but they're nearly We're like 3:45:25.640 --> 3:45:29.199 hey man Manson, just it was all about the music 3:45:29.320 --> 3:45:33.360 and the Heaven's Gate was a pure cult. Yeah, yeah, 3:45:33.400 --> 3:45:38.640 Heaven's Gate. It certainly wasn't just the money for Heaven's 3:45:40.200 --> 3:45:45.760 But yes, cops. Cops have civil acids forfeiture, which they 3:45:45.800 --> 3:45:48.840 just took a hundred thousand dollars from someone in Dallas. Yeah, 3:45:49.000 --> 3:45:51.640 and the person did not get charged with anything, um, 3:45:51.680 --> 3:45:56.880 which is usually the case. Yeah. But but I mean yeah, 3:45:56.920 --> 3:45:59.320 like you have written here that like the main the 3:45:59.360 --> 3:46:02.080 main ways just increasing their budget as much as possible, 3:46:02.200 --> 3:46:04.440 which you have. Most police departments right now have the 3:46:04.440 --> 3:46:08.920 biggest budget they've ever had. UM. Specifically in like main 3:46:09.040 --> 3:46:13.360 cities we have, they're they're the most funded department, um 3:46:13.440 --> 3:46:15.920 in in for the whole city. There's there's this there's 3:46:15.920 --> 3:46:18.080 this great gag in the opening episode of a show 3:46:18.120 --> 3:46:22.959 called Ugly Americans that's about trying to rere financialize the 3:46:22.959 --> 3:46:26.160 city's budget. And they have like like a social spending 3:46:26.240 --> 3:46:28.920 and cop budget and they take like all of social 3:46:28.920 --> 3:46:31.039 spending and move it over and leave this one tiny 3:46:31.080 --> 3:46:33.039 sliver and they're like, oh there, that's better. That will 3:46:33.040 --> 3:46:36.560 solve all the problems. Um. It's it is a better 3:46:36.680 --> 3:46:39.640 sketch than what I explaining it just like this sounds 3:46:39.680 --> 3:46:44.080 not funny, but the sketch is actually pretty good. But yes, 3:46:44.160 --> 3:46:46.320 and and it is and it is relatively accurate in 3:46:46.400 --> 3:46:48.960 terms of just moving all the funding from social programs 3:46:49.040 --> 3:46:53.400 over into law enforcement. Yeah. So there's uh there, you know, 3:46:53.440 --> 3:46:56.680 there's everyone gets their financing different ways. There's county, there's stayed, 3:46:56.720 --> 3:46:59.199 there's their city. But a common thing that would happen 3:46:59.440 --> 3:47:04.320 was the uh law enforcement agencies would try to take 3:47:04.360 --> 3:47:08.199 anything that they could under the umbrella of law enforcement. 3:47:08.240 --> 3:47:10.199 So if it was like, hey, we want to have more, 3:47:10.560 --> 3:47:13.400 you know, security equipment at the high school, and then 3:47:13.480 --> 3:47:14.879 the cops will be like, no, no no, no, no, no, 3:47:15.080 --> 3:47:18.520 give us that money. We'll give you another another officer 3:47:18.600 --> 3:47:21.440 on campus. Or they want to hire something for the part, 3:47:21.480 --> 3:47:23.320 you know, and we want to install lights the city 3:47:23.360 --> 3:47:25.000 park to increase security. No no no, no, no, no, no no, 3:47:25.160 --> 3:47:27.039 you just give us that money. We'll make sure our 3:47:27.080 --> 3:47:32.320 guys patrol it more. Mm hmm. So they actively try 3:47:32.400 --> 3:47:36.280 to just like coach money from everybody else. Yeah, I mean, 3:47:36.280 --> 3:47:37.920 and you you can see this in a lot of 3:47:37.920 --> 3:47:40.680 towns where like the number one use of public funds 3:47:40.720 --> 3:47:44.200 is the police. I mean, it's it's all over the 3:47:44.240 --> 3:47:48.880 country at this point. Um, yeah, that makes sense. Uh. 3:47:49.040 --> 3:47:52.560 So members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time 3:47:52.600 --> 3:47:56.400 to the group and group related activities. Um, yeah, because 3:47:56.400 --> 3:47:58.320 you have written here four years with no days off, 3:47:58.360 --> 3:48:01.000 but scored a satisfactor told to put in more time 3:48:01.040 --> 3:48:04.920 outside of work. Yeah. So, like I said, our emails 3:48:04.920 --> 3:48:07.920 were always sounds so much like MLM shit it is. 3:48:08.200 --> 3:48:10.640 It is they they every time you're going for an evail, 3:48:10.640 --> 3:48:13.720 they negg you, like no matter what are Our scoring 3:48:13.800 --> 3:48:17.280 system was one to ten. Um, nobody ever got higher 3:48:17.320 --> 3:48:20.200 than a six. Maybe I think I saw like one 3:48:20.280 --> 3:48:22.920 or two sevens in my entire time there. And when 3:48:22.920 --> 3:48:25.720 I became a supervisor, I asked the brass I'm like, hey, 3:48:25.720 --> 3:48:28.280 I want to give this guy this this upper grade 3:48:28.280 --> 3:48:30.960 of like an eight or nine, and he told me flat, 3:48:31.000 --> 3:48:32.760 because no, we don't do that, Like, no one's allowed 3:48:32.760 --> 3:48:34.200 to get higher than a seven. And if you want 3:48:34.200 --> 3:48:36.800 a seven, you're gonna have to like write a novel 3:48:36.840 --> 3:48:41.720 about how great this person is to get them this rating. Um, 3:48:41.800 --> 3:48:44.120 it was just yeah, it was. It was consistently just 3:48:44.120 --> 3:48:46.520 pinning you down. The four years no dated off. So yeah, 3:48:46.520 --> 3:48:49.920 I did h four years straight without calling in sick once, 3:48:50.000 --> 3:48:54.240 like I took vacations. But um, when I went in 3:48:54.280 --> 3:48:56.240 from my email and he slides me a thing that says. 3:48:56.280 --> 3:48:58.600 It says attendance satisfactory. And I was like, what are 3:48:58.640 --> 3:49:00.840 you talking about? I was like, I haven't taken a 3:49:00.879 --> 3:49:02.440 day a sick day in four years. You know, I 3:49:02.720 --> 3:49:04.800 have three kids. How do you think I managed that? 3:49:04.920 --> 3:49:10.000 Like I've sacrificed to be here that much. And his 3:49:10.120 --> 3:49:12.000 response was well like, yeah, but I never see you 3:49:12.040 --> 3:49:14.960 at barbecues, I never see you at the union meetings. 3:49:15.000 --> 3:49:17.720 I never see you at the fundraisers for the sheriff's reelection, 3:49:19.200 --> 3:49:22.320 even though it's blatantly against policy and illegal to do. 3:49:23.240 --> 3:49:24.840 And I told him that in his response was, what 3:49:24.840 --> 3:49:26.160 are you gonna do? Tell on me? Are you're gonna 3:49:26.160 --> 3:49:31.440 tell Jesus? Yeah? That makes sense? Yeah, yeah, I mean 3:49:31.520 --> 3:49:35.120 who are you going to tell that? Who are to? Yeah? 3:49:35.480 --> 3:49:39.400 And it is it's also just like this. It isolates 3:49:39.440 --> 3:49:41.360 you from other people. It stops you from knowing folks 3:49:41.400 --> 3:49:44.680 that aren't cops. And it's yeah, it's a lot like 3:49:44.720 --> 3:49:46.520 what your up line is gonna tell you if you're 3:49:46.560 --> 3:49:49.560 selling mary kay that that that that ties into the 3:49:49.680 --> 3:49:52.360 that ties into the next point. Members are encouraged to 3:49:52.560 --> 3:49:55.560 or required to live and or socialize only with other 3:49:55.640 --> 3:49:57.520 group of members um and you say this is like 3:49:57.520 --> 3:50:00.440 part of the hyper vigilance isolate isolation cycle. But I 3:50:00.480 --> 3:50:03.200 also see this in terms of like something I uh 3:50:03.840 --> 3:50:06.800 get into for fun, is I join like a wife 3:50:06.880 --> 3:50:12.120 of cops um Facebook groups just because it's fast just 3:50:12.200 --> 3:50:14.520 to have all of just to have all of these 3:50:14.560 --> 3:50:17.840 like cops spouses in a Facebook group, and it's super Yeah, 3:50:17.840 --> 3:50:20.520 Like it's it's a really interesting like culture of like 3:50:20.840 --> 3:50:23.000 just associating with other people on the job. You know, 3:50:23.080 --> 3:50:25.920 there's like cop barbecues like you mentioned and all this 3:50:26.000 --> 3:50:28.480 kind of stuff where it's like we're the only ones 3:50:28.520 --> 3:50:31.200 that can understand you. So we're gonna build like this 3:50:31.320 --> 3:50:34.200 like you know, force field around all of us and 3:50:34.240 --> 3:50:37.120 we can be together as a family and keep out 3:50:37.120 --> 3:50:43.240 everyone else because we're the ones that really know what's up. Um. Yeah, 3:50:43.240 --> 3:50:47.040 it seems uh, I mean for some people who are 3:50:47.080 --> 3:50:50.120 really into it, I guess that is you know, that's 3:50:50.160 --> 3:50:53.200 how humans socialize in some ways. So like, you know, 3:50:53.200 --> 3:50:55.680 for people who think being cops are good and quote 3:50:55.720 --> 3:50:58.440 unquote enjoy it, I'm sure they have a decent time 3:50:58.480 --> 3:51:01.880 hanging out with their cop buddies, right, Um, And I'm 3:51:01.920 --> 3:51:06.000 sure the cops spouse facebook groups I'm sure they have 3:51:06.040 --> 3:51:09.880 a good time laughing about whatever viral video there is 3:51:09.920 --> 3:51:12.520 of someone using too much force, you know who, who 3:51:12.520 --> 3:51:15.320 knows what? Like how how they actually think about those 3:51:15.320 --> 3:51:18.760 types of very isolated environments, because you know, it's it's 3:51:18.760 --> 3:51:21.040 about fend find you know, it's it's almost like it's 3:51:21.080 --> 3:51:24.280 it's extending out into like fandom rules where you're associating 3:51:24.280 --> 3:51:27.200 with other people the same way fandoms work, which is 3:51:27.360 --> 3:51:33.880 very just very similar to to how cults work. Um so, yeah, yeah, 3:51:33.920 --> 3:51:38.000 it's an armed, militant fandom. And your last point here, 3:51:39.000 --> 3:51:41.280 the most loyal members, the true believers, feel there can 3:51:41.320 --> 3:51:43.600 be no life outside the context of the group. They 3:51:43.600 --> 3:51:45.520 believe there is no other way to be, and often 3:51:45.520 --> 3:51:47.920 fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave or 3:51:47.960 --> 3:51:53.160 even consider leaving the group. Yeah, so I put in 3:51:53.240 --> 3:51:57.960 the note of just self expantiory. But yeah, it's me 3:51:59.720 --> 3:52:05.480 quit was weird. I knew I needed to do it, 3:52:05.560 --> 3:52:08.800 but I I had a massive existential crisis of identity 3:52:09.120 --> 3:52:13.440 and of of logistical things, but a lot of it 3:52:13.520 --> 3:52:15.240 was it was tied to my identity, and it was 3:52:15.400 --> 3:52:19.400 it was letting go of something that was like a 3:52:19.400 --> 3:52:25.800 core pillar of my personality and it really freaked me out. 3:52:25.800 --> 3:52:30.200 And I think that if I was more inside the group, 3:52:30.240 --> 3:52:31.480 and I was more like one of the guys, a 3:52:31.560 --> 3:52:33.960 golden boy or something like, I probably would have never left. 3:52:34.720 --> 3:52:37.200 If I was, if I was getting that constant reinforcement 3:52:37.360 --> 3:52:40.000 of the good boy feelings, I don't think I would 3:52:40.000 --> 3:52:46.000 have quit. Um. But after I did quit, that actually 3:52:46.680 --> 3:52:49.440 kicked off a cascade of people around my same age 3:52:49.440 --> 3:52:52.600 and within my same seniority level in looking at their 3:52:52.680 --> 3:52:54.720 job and looking at what it was doing to them 3:52:54.760 --> 3:52:59.160 psychologically and physically and with their families, and thinking to themselves, 3:52:59.360 --> 3:53:02.000 I can and leave that. That is how cult, How 3:53:02.000 --> 3:53:05.120 that is how leaving cults work. Yeah. Yeah. And so 3:53:05.280 --> 3:53:07.400 once I left, a bunch of other guys were like, oh, 3:53:07.240 --> 3:53:09.560 I don't have to do this until I'm fifty five. 3:53:10.840 --> 3:53:13.040 I can I can go start another career somewhere else. 3:53:13.080 --> 3:53:15.680 I can go start another retirement plan at a different place. 3:53:17.480 --> 3:53:21.360 And I just it felt great to see other people 3:53:21.520 --> 3:53:24.280 tear away and do that. But at the same time, 3:53:24.360 --> 3:53:27.520 I know for some of that it hurt mhm really 3:53:27.560 --> 3:53:30.320 bad to leave that behind. Because once you're once you 3:53:30.400 --> 3:53:35.040 are out, UM, you are kind of out. Even if 3:53:35.040 --> 3:53:36.880 you leave amicably like hey, I just want to go 3:53:36.960 --> 3:53:40.280 do something else with my life, you're no longer in 3:53:40.320 --> 3:53:42.680 those people's minds anymore because you're not part of the team, 3:53:42.720 --> 3:53:44.880 you're not in the club, you're not in the family anymore. 3:53:45.480 --> 3:53:50.720 You're that guy that used to be here. And I 3:53:50.760 --> 3:53:54.000 guess kind of at the conclusion of this and this 3:53:54.040 --> 3:53:55.560 is you know, when you when the question is like, 3:53:55.560 --> 3:53:58.120 how do you de radicalize get people out of colts? 3:53:58.120 --> 3:54:00.720 How do you like, no one has good answer to that, 3:54:00.800 --> 3:54:02.800 So I don't think we should expect you to suddenly 3:54:02.840 --> 3:54:06.400 have like here's how to here's how to convince everybody 3:54:06.560 --> 3:54:08.760 to stop doing this, because we can't do that for 3:54:08.840 --> 3:54:12.560 fucking Q and on, like de radicalization of the people 3:54:12.600 --> 3:54:14.800 who say they're involved in it are fucking drifting, like 3:54:14.880 --> 3:54:17.040 it's it's it's a big mess of a of a 3:54:17.120 --> 3:54:19.920 fucking field in the first place. But I am wondering, 3:54:19.960 --> 3:54:22.520 do you have some insights into like, yeah, how then 3:54:22.600 --> 3:54:26.800 do we de radicalize these people? Uh? Like I don't 3:54:26.840 --> 3:54:29.200 think there is Like I don't think there is a 3:54:29.240 --> 3:54:32.440 cookie cutter answer for like pulling people out. Um, you know, 3:54:32.480 --> 3:54:34.600 we can't bag them in a white vand and take 3:54:34.680 --> 3:54:38.440 them to a hotel. Uh. The only thing I can 3:54:38.480 --> 3:54:41.360 think of that would actually change the culture is a 3:54:41.480 --> 3:54:46.880 huge shift in our national culture around like mental health 3:54:47.000 --> 3:54:51.720 and toxic masculinity and you know, wrapping your identity into 3:54:51.800 --> 3:54:54.080 into your job because it's not just cops that do this' 3:54:54.480 --> 3:54:57.920 it's it's it's it's like that is that is America now? 3:54:58.720 --> 3:55:00.840 Is that is like hustle culture and that is what 3:55:00.880 --> 3:55:05.440 the idea of a career is my name and I 3:55:05.480 --> 3:55:08.920 am a blank Like that career career comes from the 3:55:09.520 --> 3:55:12.400 word that means like careening, Like you are going full 3:55:12.480 --> 3:55:15.560 force into this thing that is that is what you 3:55:15.600 --> 3:55:18.880 are doing now. That is your existence, is your career. 3:55:19.200 --> 3:55:22.640 You're going at it um that is that is what 3:55:22.680 --> 3:55:27.120 this whole country is built on. Uh. So getting out 3:55:27.120 --> 3:55:29.280 of that for a lot of people, for just regular jobs, 3:55:29.320 --> 3:55:32.920 it's difficult. Now adding on the idea that you are 3:55:33.400 --> 3:55:37.320 the thing that holds society together, that is that that 3:55:37.400 --> 3:55:40.320 has a whole other level of complexity, like psychologically for 3:55:40.360 --> 3:55:44.600 the person inside it um. Because I'm sure like telemarketers, 3:55:44.720 --> 3:55:46.800 if you can get really into it and make money, 3:55:46.960 --> 3:55:49.000 sure that can be a career. But you know, you're 3:55:49.000 --> 3:55:52.320 not holding society together and like that's not that's not 3:55:52.640 --> 3:55:55.880 that's not a delusion that you have and nobody outside 3:55:55.920 --> 3:56:03.320 shares has There's there's no there, there is there's no 3:56:03.400 --> 3:56:07.600 thin telemarketing line of supporting you. So it is it 3:56:07.760 --> 3:56:10.720 is different for like police specifically, even more so than 3:56:10.760 --> 3:56:13.480 like firefighters or like E. M. T. S. UM. This 3:56:13.960 --> 3:56:17.560 particular fandom that's developed around police and and and like 3:56:17.640 --> 3:56:22.200 the the incredible self importance that they is that is 3:56:22.240 --> 3:56:26.280 cultivated um to. Yeah, like the idea of I'm doing 3:56:26.320 --> 3:56:31.200 this to maintain reality is like a very like big 3:56:31.240 --> 3:56:33.520 thing to tell yourself and get getting out of that 3:56:33.560 --> 3:56:38.960 seems uh challenging. Yeah, it really is. It's like it's 3:56:38.960 --> 3:56:41.360 almost it's almost worse than most like churches in a 3:56:41.400 --> 3:56:45.600 sense because in this version it's so it's so materialized. 3:56:45.680 --> 3:56:48.080 It's it's it is, Yeah, it's it's it's right in 3:56:48.160 --> 3:56:49.320 front of you. I can reach out and touch it 3:56:49.320 --> 3:56:51.520 because I'm part of society. But if I'm not here 3:56:51.600 --> 3:56:54.920 and we're not here, you know, anarchy the bad guy 3:56:55.040 --> 3:56:57.200 that the way people think the word means, you know, 3:56:57.240 --> 3:57:00.320 everything's gonna catch fire, and the only reason people are 3:57:00.320 --> 3:57:02.040 good to each other is because the law makes them 3:57:02.040 --> 3:57:03.960 be that way and all that kind of toxic bs. 3:57:05.280 --> 3:57:07.480 So the only thing I can think of to be 3:57:07.520 --> 3:57:11.000 like to help de radicalize people is it's almost like 3:57:11.280 --> 3:57:13.920 treating someone in your family that listens to too much 3:57:13.960 --> 3:57:17.000 Q and on is to you know, if you know 3:57:17.080 --> 3:57:18.920 a cop or you have a friend that used to 3:57:18.920 --> 3:57:21.080 be a cop, and he ever like reaches out to you, 3:57:22.400 --> 3:57:25.800 maybe with like kid gloves, kind of be like, hey, 3:57:26.240 --> 3:57:30.920 how you doing just small things because that could maybe 3:57:31.120 --> 3:57:33.880 lead to him putting them putting something on their shelf. 3:57:34.000 --> 3:57:35.760 Just like when people get out of religions and things, 3:57:36.400 --> 3:57:39.040 they'll often reach out to people and be like, hey, 3:57:39.840 --> 3:57:44.760 this is such a fucking it kind of means something 3:57:44.800 --> 3:57:46.840 if he's going outside of the group. And so yeah, 3:57:46.960 --> 3:57:50.960 maybe recognize that, like you have an opportunity. Yeah, if 3:57:51.040 --> 3:57:52.440 if a cop reaches out to you, it's just like 3:57:52.480 --> 3:57:54.680 someone in a religious institution. They're reaching out to you 3:57:54.720 --> 3:57:58.360 because they feel safe talking to you because you're not 3:57:58.360 --> 3:58:00.440 going to turn them in your It's not gonna have 3:58:00.440 --> 3:58:07.560 any uh immediate impact on their life right now. Yeah 3:58:07.600 --> 3:58:12.200 that makes sense. Um, All right, well, Alexander, anything else 3:58:12.200 --> 3:58:15.840 you wanted to get into I mean I could talk 3:58:15.880 --> 3:58:17.840 about this kind of stuff for days and days and 3:58:17.880 --> 3:58:20.920 hours and hours, the whole hyper vigilance cycle, and like 3:58:20.960 --> 3:58:22.640 I said, I've read a bunch of books on it. 3:58:22.680 --> 3:58:26.200 I really tried to get training on just the hyper 3:58:26.240 --> 3:58:28.680 vigilance cycle. Like well, if you ask most cops about 3:58:28.720 --> 3:58:30.400 hyper vigilance, they would just look at you and be like, 3:58:30.440 --> 3:58:32.160 I don't even know what that means what you're talking about, 3:58:32.880 --> 3:58:34.440 which is why I used to I used to give 3:58:34.480 --> 3:58:37.880 this book, the Emotional Survival Bout for law enforcement. I 3:58:37.880 --> 3:58:40.760 would I gave it to new hires, and some of 3:58:40.760 --> 3:58:44.120 those new hires didn't come back, and I'm fine with that. 3:58:44.440 --> 3:58:49.040 Yeah that's good. Yeah. Some of them looked at it 3:58:49.080 --> 3:58:51.040 and we're like, no, I'm not signing up for this 3:58:51.160 --> 3:58:53.440 because you you really don't know what you're signing up 3:58:53.440 --> 3:58:55.520 for the real stuff that you're signing up for until 3:58:55.520 --> 3:59:02.160 you're in it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean also like a 3:59:02.240 --> 3:59:09.880 cult um Yeah yeah, well all right, uh, Alexander, thank 3:59:09.880 --> 3:59:11.880 you so much for coming on and for sharing this 3:59:11.960 --> 3:59:13.760 with us. I think it's a useful look behind the 3:59:13.800 --> 3:59:19.440 curtain um that that folks need um and this has 3:59:19.480 --> 3:59:24.120 been it could happen here you can find Garrison on 3:59:24.160 --> 3:59:27.720 the internet. Go go, go track down Garrison's fake Facebook account. 3:59:27.760 --> 3:59:30.440 You know what goes do that you can't? You can? 3:59:30.800 --> 3:59:33.480 I I have, I have made up possible specifically for 3:59:33.520 --> 3:59:39.160 this reason, a cop wife group with Harrison joined me 3:59:39.760 --> 3:59:44.880 and Vanessa so we could discuss our husband's careers. Hey, 3:59:44.920 --> 3:59:47.760 for all you know, you may cause the de radicalization 3:59:47.800 --> 3:59:51.400 of the cop Yeah. That, or Garrison just gets really 3:59:51.480 --> 3:59:54.240 weirdly into role playing as the wife of like a 3:59:54.320 --> 4:00:01.240 career episode is over. We are done. This is I 4:00:01.280 --> 4:00:21.720 am pulling the plug. Harrison starts the episode. I don't 4:00:21.720 --> 4:00:23.960 trust Robbert to me, you want me to start, I 4:00:23.960 --> 4:00:26.600 don't trust Robbert. Today. It's time, Garrison, it's time for 4:00:26.640 --> 4:00:30.240 you to learn. Wow, my advice is a tonal shrieking. 4:00:30.400 --> 4:00:32.720 I am not doing that. Everyone's gonna be like, oh, 4:00:32.920 --> 4:00:38.560 Garrison's just copying Robert's tone and cadence. You mean you 4:00:38.560 --> 4:00:41.000 mean they're making sounds with my mouth. Yeah, that's that's 4:00:41.000 --> 4:00:46.440 how that's how, that's how communication works. Start the episode 4:00:46.440 --> 4:00:50.200 with that and trigger everybody like me. You use a microphone, 4:00:50.320 --> 4:00:57.520 it's very real. Yeah, you Steve, we're a recording. Let's 4:00:57.600 --> 4:01:02.160 let's do this Hey, time for stories we love We 4:01:02.200 --> 4:01:05.640 love stories here Attika Happen here pod the podcast about 4:01:05.680 --> 4:01:08.040 how things are kind of falling apart and too maybe 4:01:08.120 --> 4:01:11.000 some ways to put them back together. Um, I'm Garrison. 4:01:11.080 --> 4:01:15.360 I'm starting this episode today. I'm not sure why hungover 4:01:16.040 --> 4:01:18.840 Robert is real hungry because I didn't trust Robert to 4:01:18.880 --> 4:01:22.320 do his job today. But I trust you, Garrison. You 4:01:22.320 --> 4:01:24.120 didn't really not trust me to do my job. I 4:01:24.160 --> 4:01:27.800 know that's that's fun. Um. We also we also have 4:01:27.880 --> 4:01:38.720 Christopher here, hey, and and we have uh writer Rebecca Campbell. Hello, hey, 4:01:40.320 --> 4:01:44.240 and uh, what why don't you briefly explain who who 4:01:44.320 --> 4:01:48.800 you are and what what's what's going on today? Okay, 4:01:48.880 --> 4:01:52.000 while I'm a Canadian writer and sometimes I'm a teacher, 4:01:52.080 --> 4:01:54.720 but mostly I just write really sad stories about climate 4:01:54.800 --> 4:02:01.360 change and coasts and aies and near future stuff like that. Um. 4:02:01.400 --> 4:02:04.200 This story I'm reading is called thank You from Your Patients. 4:02:04.240 --> 4:02:06.800 It came out and reckoning for I guess last year. 4:02:07.160 --> 4:02:10.320 And uh, it's based on my partner's time when he 4:02:10.360 --> 4:02:12.920 was working in a call center and the kind of 4:02:13.040 --> 4:02:15.240 nightmares stories that I heard from them every time he 4:02:15.280 --> 4:02:18.360 came home from work. But It's also about me being 4:02:18.400 --> 4:02:20.080 on the other side of the country from the part 4:02:20.160 --> 4:02:21.600 of the world that I love the most, which is 4:02:21.640 --> 4:02:26.240 the Pacific Northwest. Um. And you know, watching Fukushima a 4:02:26.240 --> 4:02:29.160 few years ago, and watching wildfires a few weeks ago, 4:02:30.000 --> 4:02:33.960 and um, being separated from the things that are important 4:02:33.960 --> 4:02:38.160 to you, um as they're all falling apart. Well, I'm 4:02:38.200 --> 4:02:41.160 just excited that this podcast is now two fifths Canadian, 4:02:41.400 --> 4:02:45.360 So that's that's the main thing I'm excited about. Uh no, 4:02:46.000 --> 4:02:48.880 oh my god, I just Tim Horton's cup just appeared 4:02:48.920 --> 4:02:53.160 next to me. It's terrible donut I have. I do 4:02:53.240 --> 4:02:57.200 have a Tim Hortons kept in my kitchen. Um do. Anyway, 4:02:57.760 --> 4:03:01.280 let's uh, let's let's let's start at this. Start this, uh, 4:03:01.520 --> 4:03:05.040 start this reading. Let's eat this popsicle stand as they 4:03:05.080 --> 4:03:11.920 say a thing, Let's continue, Let's let's eat this. Okay, 4:03:12.600 --> 4:03:17.840 thank you for your patients. I'm lucky because they replaced 4:03:17.880 --> 4:03:19.680 a bunch of chairs last month and I got a 4:03:19.720 --> 4:03:22.360 new one. A good chair is important when you spend 4:03:22.360 --> 4:03:24.480 ten hours a day in a cubicle talking to strangers 4:03:24.520 --> 4:03:28.160 about their problems. I've been here three years and worked 4:03:28.160 --> 4:03:30.960 on most of Western Morgan's Services, which means I can, 4:03:31.320 --> 4:03:33.800 with no thought, help Grandma set up her WiFi, or 4:03:33.800 --> 4:03:37.040 troubleshoot banking software, or set up your cell phone plan, 4:03:37.240 --> 4:03:39.160 or help you with some app designed to find your 4:03:39.200 --> 4:03:43.080 soulmate that nevertheless fills you with hopelessness. I can't help 4:03:43.080 --> 4:03:48.120 you with the hopelessness. It's nonstandard. But I'm Western Morgan's floater, 4:03:48.280 --> 4:03:50.720 and Jordi or Kirsty just dropped me where the calls 4:03:50.720 --> 4:03:53.440 are heavy or turnover as high. On Twitter, I can 4:03:53.480 --> 4:03:56.640 answer questions within five seconds of some asshole in Toronto 4:03:56.720 --> 4:03:59.680 saying what the fuck my TV doesn't see the house network, 4:04:00.040 --> 4:04:03.320 and I respond, I'm sorry to hear that Toronto asshole. 4:04:03.400 --> 4:04:06.360 Let's see if I can help. I'm impossible to rile 4:04:06.440 --> 4:04:10.200 because I've heard everything, every possible stupid question, every strange 4:04:10.240 --> 4:04:15.000 request regarding lapsed policies and mispayments, every paranoid rand, every 4:04:15.040 --> 4:04:18.040 sort of impotent rage. The management is shitty and the 4:04:18.080 --> 4:04:23.200 customers are irritable. But there's beauty and problem solving. The 4:04:23.280 --> 4:04:25.760 really bad stuff started at the end of last month, 4:04:25.800 --> 4:04:27.720 when I had to do on one on one majority 4:04:27.840 --> 4:04:30.440 team lead for the floor. I've been fielding a bunch 4:04:30.440 --> 4:04:33.240 of questions regarding a recent patch that had broken everything. 4:04:33.360 --> 4:04:36.000 I had this rhythm, hitting my thirty second age t 4:04:36.520 --> 4:04:40.160 and typing without thinking, Mark here, how can I help you? 4:04:41.120 --> 4:04:43.880 But one on one is mandated interruptions. So I listened 4:04:43.880 --> 4:04:48.400 to Geordy brainstorm about improving morale. They stopped having barbecues 4:04:48.440 --> 4:04:50.760 because it was too expensive, even when the burgers were 4:04:50.800 --> 4:04:53.960 sawdust and soy. Also, no one wanted to be outside 4:04:54.000 --> 4:04:56.640 because Detroit was still burning, and the PPM up to 4:04:56.720 --> 4:05:02.800 something like Beijing. Listen to this Western Morrigan idol. Jordi 4:05:02.880 --> 4:05:05.960 told me we judge three of the top right calls, 4:05:06.040 --> 4:05:07.920 and we have a thing, and someone walks away with 4:05:07.960 --> 4:05:12.080 a Timmy's gift card like fifty bucks. Jordy said that 4:05:12.120 --> 4:05:15.480 like it was a good thing. What about a key fob? 4:05:15.560 --> 4:05:18.120 I asked, we can't get out with what without one? 4:05:18.160 --> 4:05:21.440 After hours? But only management could hold or the winner 4:05:21.440 --> 4:05:24.160 gets to wear Jane's or keep their phone for a shift. 4:05:24.840 --> 4:05:27.400 That didn't rate an answer. The most frustrating thing about 4:05:27.440 --> 4:05:30.000 Western Morrigan is that team leads have to hold your 4:05:30.040 --> 4:05:34.200 phone like you're an untrusted teenager who's been grounded. I 4:05:34.240 --> 4:05:36.840 feel like I'm lost in a cave or a space station. 4:05:37.640 --> 4:05:39.680 When I do a lot of overtime, I arrived when 4:05:39.680 --> 4:05:41.560 it's dark, and I leave when it's dark. And while 4:05:41.680 --> 4:05:44.520 sometimes I go around the corner for coffee or McNuggets, 4:05:45.120 --> 4:05:48.160 it always feels like I'm just visiting the world. I 4:05:48.200 --> 4:05:50.680 don't know what's happened, if a government's fall on or 4:05:50.720 --> 4:05:53.960 if an ice shelf has collapsed, if Detroit is burning again, 4:05:54.080 --> 4:05:56.840 or maybe California or the Great Lakes are dying at 4:05:56.840 --> 4:05:59.440 a slightly faster rate than they were before I left 4:05:59.440 --> 4:06:04.160 for work, never knowing what's going on outside. I sit 4:06:04.200 --> 4:06:08.240 in my good chair and say that sounds frustrating to everyone, 4:06:08.520 --> 4:06:11.560 no matter who's talking or what they want. Let me 4:06:11.600 --> 4:06:15.760 see if I understand your problem, you could judge, Jordy, 4:06:15.840 --> 4:06:19.920 Stead said, still talking about Morrel. You're impartial. You hate everyone. 4:06:20.680 --> 4:06:23.680 I don't hate everyone, Geordy, I said, reflexively, though, to 4:06:23.720 --> 4:06:27.200 be fair, I hate a lot of people here. After 4:06:27.280 --> 4:06:30.040 my mandated fifteen minutes with Jority, I saw that Misty 4:06:30.120 --> 4:06:32.400 had a problem with my documentation, which has been rough 4:06:32.440 --> 4:06:35.320 since they changed policy on me. She's in the Philippines, 4:06:35.360 --> 4:06:37.840 where most of the real work happens. Upper management is 4:06:37.840 --> 4:06:40.440 all in India. They only have us because they need 4:06:40.560 --> 4:06:43.640 Canadian accents on the phones and they get tax breaks 4:06:43.640 --> 4:06:46.320 bringing jobs to one of the more desolate parts of 4:06:46.320 --> 4:06:49.720 the country down when from Detroit Rampant West Nile and 4:06:49.800 --> 4:06:52.960 ninety percent of the province's heavy metals processed at the 4:06:53.040 --> 4:06:56.400 plant out by the ball. Seventy percent of the baby's 4:06:56.400 --> 4:06:58.880 born here or girls. Something to do with residual b P. 4:06:59.040 --> 4:07:03.120 A misty is on the other side of the Pacific 4:07:03.240 --> 4:07:06.360 in Lagazpi. But you think she was right here considering 4:07:06.360 --> 4:07:10.680 how aggressively she organizes us. Your ship at filling out 4:07:10.720 --> 4:07:12.960 forms mark the right up is going to kill your rank. 4:07:13.840 --> 4:07:16.720 We're stack ranked. Every shift it gets you points you 4:07:16.760 --> 4:07:19.760 can redeem. You can redeem, which honestly is worth it 4:07:19.840 --> 4:07:23.200 for the grocery store gift cards. Just tell me what 4:07:23.240 --> 4:07:27.880 I did wrong. Lagazpi, we were in the middle of 4:07:27.880 --> 4:07:30.600 a rough month. The flu hit everywhere at once, and 4:07:30.640 --> 4:07:32.320 no one could afford to lose the work, So we 4:07:32.360 --> 4:07:35.000 had a bunch of people come in sick coughs and 4:07:35.120 --> 4:07:37.640 juicy sneezes all over the floor, and half the time 4:07:37.880 --> 4:07:40.320 you got on the elevator and everyone was gray faced 4:07:40.320 --> 4:07:44.280 and weaving. I came in over the weekend to cover 4:07:44.400 --> 4:07:46.760 mobile because they lost half their staff, so i'd been 4:07:46.760 --> 4:07:49.200 on for eight days by Monday, when Jordy was manic 4:07:49.240 --> 4:07:51.440 trying to call people in so he wouldn't have to 4:07:51.480 --> 4:07:54.440 go on the phones. He always says when we're smoking outside, 4:07:54.440 --> 4:07:56.600 and he's pointedly not looking at the place where the 4:07:56.640 --> 4:07:59.520 jam building used to be. It's not the extra fifty 4:07:59.520 --> 4:08:01.720 cents and hour. It's the fact I don't have to 4:08:01.760 --> 4:08:07.160 deal with people. He hated taking calls. He offered me overtime, 4:08:07.200 --> 4:08:09.440 so I started coming in at six and leaving at ten, 4:08:09.640 --> 4:08:12.480 and I didn't even notice the weekend. I do remember 4:08:12.560 --> 4:08:15.800 going home those nights and thinking how hollow my room 4:08:15.880 --> 4:08:18.200 felt with my roommates playing Call of Duty in the 4:08:18.240 --> 4:08:21.520 living room, and how my body seemed to vibrate caffeine 4:08:21.560 --> 4:08:25.760 maybe your pseudophedan. I heard phantom time warnings and chimes, 4:08:25.800 --> 4:08:27.720 and when I closed my eyes I could see the 4:08:27.760 --> 4:08:31.640 screen and call after call flooding the queue. By Saturday, 4:08:31.680 --> 4:08:34.360 Western Morgan was a haunted house, but I still wasn't sick. 4:08:36.000 --> 4:08:38.720 That sounds frustrating. Let me see if I can help. 4:08:41.920 --> 4:08:44.600 I was dealing with this woman on Vancouver Islands who 4:08:44.640 --> 4:08:47.520 couldn't generate invoices. We've been at it for two hours 4:08:47.560 --> 4:08:49.640 and I could feel her getting upset when I told 4:08:49.640 --> 4:08:51.640 her to wipe the whole system and start again. I 4:08:51.640 --> 4:08:53.640 could help her with that, but she was like, no, 4:08:53.720 --> 4:08:55.760 we'll lose two weeks of work. There's nothing I can 4:08:55.760 --> 4:08:59.640 say to that, so we keep troubleshooting, even though it's pointless. Okay, 4:08:59.680 --> 4:09:01.600 I said it. You can go back to your root 4:09:01.640 --> 4:09:06.080 invoice and try. Oh, she said what, And that was it. 4:09:07.040 --> 4:09:09.120 I didn't hear anything but the line itself, which just 4:09:09.160 --> 4:09:11.600 went dead, that kind of absence you get when someone 4:09:11.640 --> 4:09:16.320 hangs up on you. Are you there, ma'am? I called back, 4:09:16.360 --> 4:09:18.840 but I got a reorder tone, not voice mail or 4:09:18.880 --> 4:09:21.600 an old fashioned busy signal, but the one that means 4:09:21.640 --> 4:09:26.440 the whole system is busier, blocked or down. I dropped 4:09:26.440 --> 4:09:28.960 out of the queue then, which you're not supposed to do, obviously, 4:09:29.000 --> 4:09:31.240 and went looking for Jordy, who was chatting with Kirsty 4:09:31.240 --> 4:09:34.400 about Western Morgan idol. I asked if they knew anything, 4:09:34.440 --> 4:09:36.000 but of course they didn't, And when I asked if 4:09:36.000 --> 4:09:37.520 I could at least grab my phone to see what 4:09:37.560 --> 4:09:40.200 was happening. Kirsty did a kind of elementary school teacher 4:09:40.320 --> 4:09:46.560 sigh documentation for three eight zero your overdue mark call 4:09:46.640 --> 4:09:51.440 you dropped. I saw that explanation happening across the board. 4:09:51.480 --> 4:09:55.480 Looks like the problems at their end. I didn't find 4:09:55.520 --> 4:09:58.280 out until Moe came back from Break Street. Wet in 4:09:58.320 --> 4:10:00.400 the way you are if you run out into that 4:10:00.520 --> 4:10:02.720 rain blowing in from Detroit because you don't want it 4:10:02.760 --> 4:10:05.440 to touch your skin, saying earthquake on the West coast? 4:10:05.600 --> 4:10:08.880 You know anyone out there? I thought about the woman 4:10:08.920 --> 4:10:11.080 trying to get the invoice together for a tiny order 4:10:11.080 --> 4:10:14.840 of sea salts from some equally tiny place on Vancouver Island. 4:10:15.000 --> 4:10:19.200 Her business so miniscule it's still fit into our cheapest subscription. 4:10:20.560 --> 4:10:23.560 In my unsubmitted documentation for Misty, I had written that 4:10:23.600 --> 4:10:26.720 her voice sounded like a hopeful but slightly overwhelmed great 4:10:26.760 --> 4:10:31.080 aunt trying to make the remote control work. No one, 4:10:31.120 --> 4:10:34.120 how bad like nine point six, the worst since forever, 4:10:34.240 --> 4:10:38.440 like for hundreds of years, Jesus, I said, Jesus, Jesus, 4:10:39.520 --> 4:10:42.840 I've had similar moments on calls when they're shooting. Happened 4:10:42.840 --> 4:10:45.480 in Montreal, not view Ma real, but the one where 4:10:45.480 --> 4:10:48.360 the kids ran downtown from McGill and the photographer caught 4:10:48.360 --> 4:10:50.520 the girl as the bullet tour at her right kneecap. 4:10:51.720 --> 4:10:53.600 I was on the line with this dick wad and 4:10:53.640 --> 4:10:57.320 a coworking place on Maisonneuve, who was talking, who was 4:10:57.320 --> 4:11:00.280 asking to talk to my supervisor. Then midwhile and he 4:11:00.360 --> 4:11:03.640 stopped talking like he suddenly didn't care about my attitude. 4:11:03.800 --> 4:11:06.840 I could hear his phone pinging, sir, are you there? 4:11:08.040 --> 4:11:09.720 Can you hear that it's happening on the street. I 4:11:09.720 --> 4:11:13.440 can see a faint popping voice raised and doors slammed. 4:11:13.520 --> 4:11:17.000 Then he cut the call. I kept in the queue, 4:11:17.480 --> 4:11:20.760 helped someone update. I did a subscription renewal. The next person, though, 4:11:21.160 --> 4:11:23.520 needed a backup and that took forever. So we chatted 4:11:23.560 --> 4:11:27.080 about hockey until she said, did you hear about Montreal? No, ma'am, 4:11:27.280 --> 4:11:30.120 I said, thinking about the sound I maybe heard before 4:11:30.160 --> 4:11:34.760 his phone cut. Firecrackers, backfires. Some guy shot up the 4:11:34.760 --> 4:11:37.560 whole downtown. I think it was terrorists, who knows FLQ 4:11:37.800 --> 4:11:40.320 or Muslims, maybe Red Power fifty dead, but it was 4:11:40.360 --> 4:11:44.520 going up every single time ever fresh the page. She 4:11:44.600 --> 4:11:46.880 kept going on like this while we did a backup, 4:11:47.040 --> 4:11:49.240 and then I made sure everything worked. And it had 4:11:49.280 --> 4:11:51.240 been like three hours at that point, and I kept 4:11:51.240 --> 4:11:53.440 thinking of the guy and his silence and what was 4:11:53.480 --> 4:11:55.360 going on in the streets while we talked about his 4:11:55.400 --> 4:11:58.640 log in and how unprofessional I was. I don't have 4:11:58.680 --> 4:12:00.880 any friends in Montreal. I there wants to drink when 4:12:00.920 --> 4:12:03.320 I was eighteen. But that's it. I just had that 4:12:03.400 --> 4:12:06.360 guy and the thump of footsteps fleeing the coworking space. 4:12:07.720 --> 4:12:09.920 When I took my break, the rain was falling again, 4:12:10.040 --> 4:12:12.640 the faintly gray kind that runs down the sidewalks and 4:12:12.680 --> 4:12:15.040 the gutters, and when it builds up enough you can 4:12:15.040 --> 4:12:18.320 see it's a little milky because it's full of ash. 4:12:18.480 --> 4:12:20.760 If you think too hard about what's running into your 4:12:20.760 --> 4:12:24.320 eyes as you stand outside smoking until your pack is empty, 4:12:24.600 --> 4:12:26.880 you go eat a twenty four box of tim Bits 4:12:27.000 --> 4:12:29.360 or six Big Max, or you stop for one beer 4:12:29.360 --> 4:12:31.360 on the way home and only leave when they push 4:12:31.360 --> 4:12:34.760 you out the door. Jordy was outside. I gave him 4:12:34.800 --> 4:12:37.240 a cigarette, even though he doesn't smoke either, and he said, 4:12:37.640 --> 4:12:39.680 it doesn't seem to be getting cleaner. Wasn't it supposed 4:12:39.680 --> 4:12:42.640 to get cleaner? He grew up in Detroit, though he 4:12:42.720 --> 4:12:46.400 was already over here when it burned last year. Maybe 4:12:46.400 --> 4:12:49.040 it's safer. The ham is worse. I thought the ham 4:12:49.120 --> 4:12:50.520 was supposed to go away. When they send in the 4:12:50.560 --> 4:12:55.280 cleanup cruise. We watched the warm, ash colored water run 4:12:55.320 --> 4:12:58.240 down the gutters until it was ankle deep. This city 4:12:58.480 --> 4:13:01.280 is a wetland, and there isn't far for water to go, 4:13:01.400 --> 4:13:04.080 so it ends up in people's basements. All that ashy, 4:13:04.160 --> 4:13:08.520 bony water running through foundations and drains, A constant trickle 4:13:08.600 --> 4:13:11.280 in the background, sort of like the faint pop you 4:13:11.400 --> 4:13:13.200 might hear while you're on the phone with a guy 4:13:13.240 --> 4:13:17.680 from Montreal wants to talk to your manager. Does it 4:13:17.840 --> 4:13:23.720 feel Jordy said, and lit another cigarette. What Jordy? I 4:13:23.760 --> 4:13:28.240 hate how often he doesn't finish his sentences. Does it 4:13:28.240 --> 4:13:30.400 feel like it's happening more now? The sort of thing. 4:13:32.480 --> 4:13:34.840 I dropped my smoke into the rain water and I shrugged. 4:13:34.840 --> 4:13:36.560 Then I said I wish I knew what to tell you, 4:13:36.800 --> 4:13:38.800 which wasn't a real answer, and I used my tech 4:13:38.840 --> 4:13:42.080 support voice when I said it, because I didn't want 4:13:42.120 --> 4:13:46.360 to have that conversation. On my first break after the earthquake, 4:13:46.400 --> 4:13:48.920 I smoked and watched the rain and videos on my phone. 4:13:48.960 --> 4:13:51.840 Someone live streaming the moment it hit bored talk about 4:13:51.880 --> 4:13:54.520 food or weather, than a strange look on their face, 4:13:54.760 --> 4:13:59.160 their eyes dart upward. Then the phone falls overhead footage 4:13:59.160 --> 4:14:04.360 from helicopters of downtown Vancouver, all those green towers swaying 4:14:04.400 --> 4:14:07.600 and falling, and the bridge swinging until the cable snap 4:14:07.640 --> 4:14:11.600 like rubber bands, the worst in recorded history, worse probably 4:14:11.640 --> 4:14:14.840 than the last mega thrust in seventeen hundred. I just 4:14:14.920 --> 4:14:17.280 kept thinking of that woman and the sort of quiet 4:14:17.280 --> 4:14:21.400 shock in her voice, her Oh is that? And then nothing, 4:14:22.600 --> 4:14:24.560 And I was standing out in the rain, still warm, 4:14:24.720 --> 4:14:26.440 when it occurred to me that I might have heard 4:14:26.440 --> 4:14:29.240 her last words. I kept thinking about the texture of 4:14:29.280 --> 4:14:32.120 the silence after the call dropped, and what had happened 4:14:32.160 --> 4:14:34.360 the moment after that, if that had been the worst 4:14:34.400 --> 4:14:37.440 of it, the shock of the whole world rumbling, or 4:14:37.480 --> 4:14:39.400 if it had been worse for her after that or 4:14:39.520 --> 4:14:44.600 right now or tomorrow. I only had ten minutes because 4:14:44.600 --> 4:14:47.320 call volume was increasing, My throat started to tickle. In 4:14:47.360 --> 4:14:50.280 the world just suddenly out of nowhere started to look glassy. 4:14:50.640 --> 4:14:52.680 The light thick from the ceiling squares, and my skin 4:14:52.760 --> 4:14:55.080 prickled when I ran my hands over my arms, which 4:14:55.080 --> 4:14:58.280 were covered with goose bumps. The floor was nearly empty 4:14:58.320 --> 4:15:01.240 except for Gjority running around super rising and not taking calls, 4:15:01.240 --> 4:15:03.680 and the cue was packed. My first call was round 4:15:03.680 --> 4:15:06.800 way north along the coast, Prince Rupert, a woman calling 4:15:06.800 --> 4:15:09.480 about a password reset. I want Mark, she said, he 4:15:09.480 --> 4:15:12.800 helped me before. Can I talk to Mark? While I 4:15:12.880 --> 4:15:15.960 was documenting, I thought, fuck it, I'm gonna tell Misty 4:15:16.080 --> 4:15:18.080 what the old woman told me while we were waiting 4:15:18.080 --> 4:15:20.760 for the password reset email about how when you're that 4:15:20.800 --> 4:15:23.200 far north you don't notice time passing, and you feel 4:15:23.200 --> 4:15:26.360 good in an unimaginable way in summer, luminous and hopeful, 4:15:26.800 --> 4:15:29.000 and how in winter all you want to do is 4:15:29.080 --> 4:15:31.400 die and drink yourself into a coma, so you know, 4:15:31.440 --> 4:15:38.360 it balances out. After that, I reopened three zero. An 4:15:38.400 --> 4:15:41.680 elderly woman I wrote on a phone trying to print 4:15:41.720 --> 4:15:44.840 invoices for locally produced sea salt, looks over at the 4:15:44.920 --> 4:15:47.480 rack of glass jars in which she keeps her stock 4:15:47.600 --> 4:15:51.000 because she hears a rattle, then another. Then she says, oh, 4:15:51.200 --> 4:15:54.280 is that and nothing else, because at that moment, the 4:15:54.280 --> 4:15:58.880 force of rashimas lit the Cascadius abduction zone on which 4:15:58.960 --> 4:16:01.280 Vancouver Island rest. It's like a cork in a bottle. 4:16:02.000 --> 4:16:07.080 Centuries of continental tension released. I type that, then I 4:16:07.160 --> 4:16:09.840 hit send. Then I added a secondary note on her file. 4:16:10.120 --> 4:16:15.040 At PST A nine point eight hit the Cascadia subduction zone, 4:16:16.760 --> 4:16:19.000 and Misty was right there on chad Hive, not telling 4:16:19.040 --> 4:16:21.880 me it was inappropriate. She wrote, rest their souls. And 4:16:21.920 --> 4:16:24.720 I was comforted by those temporary words, which surprised me. 4:16:26.320 --> 4:16:30.040 My grandparents were in MINDA now in the nine earthquake, 4:16:30.560 --> 4:16:36.080 you got anyone there? No? I heard the hum from Detroit. 4:16:36.320 --> 4:16:39.280 It was somehow a relief to know that. Across the world, 4:16:39.480 --> 4:16:43.520 Misty was in a similar room among people evaluating documentation 4:16:43.600 --> 4:16:46.320 for apps and I s p s and accounting software, 4:16:46.560 --> 4:16:49.320 people saying that must be frustrating. Let's see if I 4:16:49.320 --> 4:16:53.040 can help. Something occurred to me. Do you hear anything 4:16:53.080 --> 4:16:56.680 about tsunamis no word so far? Do you have your 4:16:56.720 --> 4:16:59.800 phone so you can get the alerts they let us 4:16:59.800 --> 4:17:01.960 know we're so bad. I'm taking calls so I won't 4:17:02.000 --> 4:17:05.880 be fixing your dog until tomorrow. I wondered if Kirsty 4:17:05.880 --> 4:17:07.880 would let us know or if she would dither about it, 4:17:07.960 --> 4:17:10.000 until all we could do was climbed to the top 4:17:10.000 --> 4:17:12.240 floor of the building and watch a way consume what 4:17:12.320 --> 4:17:15.560 was left of Detroit before it swamped us to five 4:17:15.600 --> 4:17:17.600 more calls, and I refilled my water bottle, the one 4:17:17.600 --> 4:17:20.200 with the slogan on it, fueling small Business with the 4:17:20.240 --> 4:17:23.960 tools to succeed that some now lost Western Morgan contract 4:17:23.960 --> 4:17:26.400 brought in. And I was looking at my skin reflected 4:17:26.440 --> 4:17:28.000 in the sink, which was the color of those pale, 4:17:28.080 --> 4:17:30.920 lumpy smokers you see outside the entrance, the color of 4:17:30.920 --> 4:17:34.560 a raw filet o fish. I felt adrenalized, like a 4:17:34.640 --> 4:17:37.720 moment before it'd been terrified, but I could not remember 4:17:37.760 --> 4:17:40.480 how or why. I wondered what it was doing to 4:17:40.560 --> 4:17:44.000 me inside all those cells now remade into virus factories, 4:17:44.240 --> 4:17:46.680 turning to goog and mah and sloughing off while the 4:17:46.760 --> 4:17:49.840 virus proliferated through my system, and I left traces of 4:17:49.840 --> 4:17:53.040 it on everything I touched. The water ran over the 4:17:53.040 --> 4:17:56.000 top of the bottle clear. So far, the ash hasn't 4:17:56.000 --> 4:17:58.680 worked its way in through the city's water system, or 4:17:58.720 --> 4:18:01.360 maybe it has, and it is invisible like the micro 4:18:01.440 --> 4:18:06.720 plastics in the lake so you're gonna judge it was Jordy, 4:18:07.320 --> 4:18:09.120 We're gonna do it next week. I was thinking, that's 4:18:09.120 --> 4:18:11.200 at a time limit, like five minutes, you and me 4:18:11.200 --> 4:18:12.960 and Kirsty judge it. I'll grab a fifty for the 4:18:13.040 --> 4:18:17.360 Jimmy's card too, man, I said. Georgie just stared at me. 4:18:17.480 --> 4:18:19.320 You're getting sick. You know what you need to do. 4:18:19.920 --> 4:18:22.440 He went on about ekenesia and flu effects, and I 4:18:22.440 --> 4:18:24.960 thought about the tsunami that was or was not traveling 4:18:25.000 --> 4:18:28.280 across the Pacific, or just hammer your system with antioxidants 4:18:28.320 --> 4:18:31.640 to take a double dose of night quell. Without thinking, 4:18:31.720 --> 4:18:34.280 I pulled my phone out of my pocket. You know 4:18:34.360 --> 4:18:37.240 you can't have that anywhere on the floor. I was 4:18:37.280 --> 4:18:40.280 already googling Pacific Tsunami Alert and it was rolling rainbows 4:18:40.320 --> 4:18:42.360 and I stared at it so hard that it seemed 4:18:42.360 --> 4:18:44.520 to take over the whole world. And then I shivered. 4:18:44.560 --> 4:18:47.440 But Jordy was still talking, don't make me write you up. 4:18:47.440 --> 4:18:49.960 I don't want to deal with it, okay, I said. 4:18:50.800 --> 4:18:53.080 It's about privacy for our users. They need to know 4:18:53.120 --> 4:18:56.840 that they can trust our integrity, our word, and our system. 4:18:56.920 --> 4:18:58.880 The poster on the far side of the break room, 4:18:58.920 --> 4:19:02.440 said integrity ward and system. I saw that the alert 4:19:02.520 --> 4:19:04.960 had been issued for Japan. That's when he took my phone. 4:19:05.400 --> 4:19:07.240 You fucked the dog. I have to write you up. 4:19:07.280 --> 4:19:10.240 I don't want to write you up Japan. In six hours, 4:19:10.360 --> 4:19:13.960 eight pm, i'd still be on. Then, while very far away, 4:19:14.120 --> 4:19:16.520 a wave crested on the sea coast, filling the river 4:19:16.560 --> 4:19:25.720 basins and the car parks. I know you don't have 4:19:25.760 --> 4:19:28.120 to surrender your phone, even if they can require you 4:19:28.160 --> 4:19:30.280 to leave it at home. I know they're not supposed 4:19:30.280 --> 4:19:32.400 to lock you in either, or let you smoke within 4:19:32.480 --> 4:19:34.920 three ms of the door, even when the ashes falling. 4:19:35.560 --> 4:19:37.600 They're not supposed to pay you in points. You can 4:19:37.640 --> 4:19:40.360 then exchange for grocery store gift cards, which you need 4:19:40.400 --> 4:19:43.520 because the new minimum wage wasn't even covering rent. But 4:19:43.600 --> 4:19:47.440 I needed a job. The next call I got was 4:19:47.480 --> 4:19:49.960 farther south, closer to the epicenter. The first thing I 4:19:49.960 --> 4:19:52.280 did was asked about the earthquake. Oh, we felt it, 4:19:52.360 --> 4:19:54.720 and there's a tsunami warning. But we're far enough inland 4:19:54.760 --> 4:19:57.440 it shouldn't be tsunami warning. So when I go try 4:19:57.480 --> 4:20:01.160 to log in tsunami, I keep getting the same error. 4:20:01.320 --> 4:20:03.680 It says, my accounts frozen. What does that mean? I 4:20:03.760 --> 4:20:05.920 need to do some invoices, And yeah, I just got 4:20:05.920 --> 4:20:07.800 the text like half an hour ago. Landfall is like 4:20:07.840 --> 4:20:11.480 an hour. The account was frozen due to misspayments. So 4:20:11.520 --> 4:20:14.000 I pointed that out and the guy insisted no. He 4:20:14.200 --> 4:20:16.200 set up an automated transfer, and he kept me on 4:20:16.240 --> 4:20:18.400 the line while he chatted with the banks tech support 4:20:18.480 --> 4:20:21.080 on another line to sort out the direct deposit, and 4:20:21.120 --> 4:20:24.040 then I reactivated his account. All this time, the tsunami 4:20:24.080 --> 4:20:27.200 traveling towards the coast or the shallower bottom would raise 4:20:27.240 --> 4:20:29.800 the waves height by narrowing its length. Because the last 4:20:29.800 --> 4:20:31.880 time I'd been outside, I'd looked at a gift on 4:20:31.920 --> 4:20:35.560 Wikipedia that demonstrated how tsunami's crest as they traveled through 4:20:35.560 --> 4:20:39.360 shallow waters. The last thing he said wasn't thanks, it 4:20:39.520 --> 4:20:41.840 was there. It is. The tide's going way out. I 4:20:41.880 --> 4:20:44.720 hope everyone's out of downtown. Then he was gone, and 4:20:44.760 --> 4:20:47.120 I can imagine it, the water running away from the 4:20:47.160 --> 4:20:50.280 shore like a huge exhalation, and then collecting into a 4:20:50.400 --> 4:20:54.400 rising wave that would destroy them all the tsunami warning 4:20:54.520 --> 4:20:57.320 I wrote in chat hive, hoping Misty was there. Kirsty 4:20:57.440 --> 4:21:00.640 responded instantly, that is not appropriate chat hive for important 4:21:00.640 --> 4:21:03.880 work stuff. We haven't heard anything, but we were swamps, 4:21:03.880 --> 4:21:06.480 so who knows what's going on outside. Chat Hi channel 4:21:06.520 --> 4:21:09.840 will only be used for appropriate business related business. Maybe 4:21:09.880 --> 4:21:12.680 you should get out chat hi channel will only be 4:21:12.760 --> 4:21:18.280 used for appropriate business related business. I've been there for 4:21:18.320 --> 4:21:20.880 sixteen hours, and I couldn't remember the last time I 4:21:20.920 --> 4:21:23.360 slept a full night at home when I hadn't been 4:21:23.400 --> 4:21:25.840 buzzed on cold pills and exhaustion and the sound of 4:21:25.880 --> 4:21:29.640 call of duty from the living room. That week when 4:21:29.640 --> 4:21:32.880 I did sleep, I kept saying, this is Mark from Magnicore, 4:21:33.160 --> 4:21:35.600 or this is Mark from wherever I am right now, 4:21:35.760 --> 4:21:38.080 and heard explosions and the way voices carry over for 4:21:38.120 --> 4:21:40.640 the river from Detroit, the screams and the crowds and 4:21:40.640 --> 4:21:43.960 the gunshots. Or maybe I was never actually asleep. Maybe 4:21:44.000 --> 4:21:46.600 I was just off my head. I shouldn't have washed 4:21:46.600 --> 4:21:48.440 the pills down with beer. But there's that thing that 4:21:48.520 --> 4:21:50.600 happens when you stop in for a beer after work, 4:21:50.640 --> 4:21:52.840 and the inertia of the whole thing, the job, the 4:21:52.840 --> 4:21:54.720 shitty beer, and the fact that a person brings you 4:21:54.760 --> 4:21:57.240 food even if you can't afford it it sticks you 4:21:57.280 --> 4:21:59.920 to your seat. It was bad last summer when we 4:22:00.000 --> 4:22:01.760 couldn't afford to run the A C. But the bar 4:22:01.800 --> 4:22:03.560 on the way home could and it was full of 4:22:03.600 --> 4:22:07.000 familiar guys, broke and lonely and trying to avoid looking 4:22:07.000 --> 4:22:09.400 at what was left of the Detroit skyline, or the 4:22:09.440 --> 4:22:12.160 gray green clouds boiling to the north, and the hail 4:22:12.480 --> 4:22:16.280 and the lightning storms every afternoon like clockwork. The summers 4:22:16.280 --> 4:22:19.160 are definitely hotter, and the mosquitoes are definitely worse. And 4:22:19.240 --> 4:22:21.760 the last summer I noticed that the birds don't sing anymore, 4:22:22.040 --> 4:22:27.640 all their whistles and like video game lasers. I stepped 4:22:27.640 --> 4:22:30.560 outside for another cigarette and realized the door had been locked. 4:22:30.600 --> 4:22:32.240 And I don't have a fall because I don't rate 4:22:32.280 --> 4:22:35.560 a fob. Jordy was there too, setting up his stupid 4:22:35.600 --> 4:22:38.080 Western Morgan idol piles a bright pink and green and 4:22:38.120 --> 4:22:40.960 blue post it not it's all over his desk. I 4:22:41.000 --> 4:22:43.320 need to go out. The doors are locked for the night. 4:22:43.560 --> 4:22:46.480 I need to go out. We lost another girl from online. 4:22:46.480 --> 4:22:48.120 You'll have to take over social media if we lose 4:22:48.120 --> 4:22:51.680 anyone else. Take your break here. I just kind of 4:22:51.760 --> 4:22:53.840 stared at him, and my skin prickled, like all the 4:22:53.840 --> 4:22:55.760 suit of a phedron I had taken had rushed to 4:22:55.800 --> 4:22:58.640 the surface and was blasting every single nerve ending in 4:22:58.640 --> 4:23:03.000 my body. I need to go outside. You can't, like 4:23:03.240 --> 4:23:07.480 you physically can't. I kind of stood there, and I'm 4:23:07.520 --> 4:23:10.160 ashamed to say I wanted to cry, like a little 4:23:10.200 --> 4:23:12.320 kid who isn't allowed to use the bathroom, who just 4:23:12.360 --> 4:23:14.600 wants to sit with his dad but keeps getting dragged 4:23:14.640 --> 4:23:18.440 away by unfamiliar relatives. The kind of crying you see 4:23:18.480 --> 4:23:20.640 on the bus at rush hour when some little kid 4:23:20.680 --> 4:23:22.800 coming back from the mall loses it and lies in 4:23:22.840 --> 4:23:25.480 the aisle wailing, cramming road salt in his mouth, and 4:23:25.520 --> 4:23:29.480 you just think you and me both. I didn't actually cry. 4:23:29.560 --> 4:23:32.560 I hate myself because I just said begging, can I 4:23:32.600 --> 4:23:36.200 please have my phone back? Please? Jordy looked at me 4:23:36.240 --> 4:23:37.720 like I was an idiot him in the middle of 4:23:37.720 --> 4:23:40.360 all the post it notes that read congratulations and You're 4:23:40.400 --> 4:23:44.280 a winner and Western Morgan idol. I didn't say anything. 4:23:44.320 --> 4:23:47.240 I left at first. I just sat in the lunch room, 4:23:47.280 --> 4:23:50.720 shivering and nauseated, staring at the plastic solo cup left 4:23:50.800 --> 4:23:53.600 over from the barbecues they used to give before the ash. 4:23:53.880 --> 4:23:56.120 There will be worst moments in my life, no doubt, 4:23:56.160 --> 4:23:59.000 more pain, more sadness, But I can't imagine anything so 4:23:59.120 --> 4:24:04.200 wide rangeing in its desolation as that moment. The only 4:24:04.280 --> 4:24:06.400 thing I could focus on was telling miss Ty to 4:24:06.440 --> 4:24:08.960 get her phone back and watch the horizon and be 4:24:09.040 --> 4:24:13.920 ready to escape. A girl from online staggered through, sweating 4:24:13.920 --> 4:24:15.720 and pale, and I knew that Jordy would be there 4:24:15.760 --> 4:24:18.560 in a minute to ask for another eight hours overnight 4:24:18.600 --> 4:24:21.840 answering stranger's questions so perfectly that they treat me like 4:24:21.840 --> 4:24:26.840 a shitty customer service AI built to serve. There aren't 4:24:26.840 --> 4:24:28.520 a lot of choices in life, are there. You can 4:24:28.560 --> 4:24:30.720 choose to have kids or not, to leave your hometown 4:24:30.800 --> 4:24:32.960 or not, or to stay in a terrible job you 4:24:33.000 --> 4:24:36.200 are for some reason, very good at. But other than that, 4:24:36.400 --> 4:24:39.600 what is there? Just a lot of compliance and non compliance. 4:24:40.560 --> 4:24:43.400 This moment didn't feel like a choice. I said to 4:24:43.440 --> 4:24:45.200 the girl, we need to get out of here, and 4:24:45.240 --> 4:24:47.480 she nodded. Then we headed down to the lobby. The 4:24:47.480 --> 4:24:49.400 doors were locked and no one caring a key was 4:24:49.440 --> 4:24:51.960 in the building, and the girl just looked bad. But 4:24:52.040 --> 4:24:54.280 when I went to the fire escape she still said no, no, 4:24:54.320 --> 4:24:57.800 we're not supposed to. We need to get out. They'll 4:24:57.840 --> 4:25:00.560 fire us. And I could hear of the fear in 4:25:00.600 --> 4:25:03.480 her voice, and I wondered how badly she needed this job, 4:25:03.720 --> 4:25:05.560 that she was here in the middle of the night, 4:25:05.640 --> 4:25:09.200 so sick she could hardly stand. Tell them I did it, 4:25:09.240 --> 4:25:12.400 I said, and hit the bar, only it didn't move 4:25:12.480 --> 4:25:15.920 because the fire escape was locked too. The next thing 4:25:15.960 --> 4:25:18.080 I did was stupid, but I don't know what else 4:25:18.080 --> 4:25:19.880 I could have done. I walked back to the lobby 4:25:19.920 --> 4:25:21.720 and picked up a garbage can and began slamming it 4:25:21.760 --> 4:25:24.800 into the glass door behind me. She was coughing and 4:25:24.800 --> 4:25:27.600 coughing and said maybe stop, stop, but so faintly I 4:25:27.640 --> 4:25:30.240 could ignore it. Then we were out, and she was 4:25:30.280 --> 4:25:33.240 staggering towards the emergency room on wilette and I was 4:25:33.280 --> 4:25:36.200 alone in the rain water the same temperature as my blood. 4:25:36.840 --> 4:25:39.240 Then I went looking for a pay phone, because the 4:25:39.280 --> 4:25:41.120 only way to sort this out was to call in, 4:25:41.680 --> 4:25:44.760 but I couldn't remember which of Western Morgan's departments Misty 4:25:44.840 --> 4:25:47.040 was assigned to. So when I finally found the city's 4:25:47.160 --> 4:25:50.280 last pay phone in the bus depot, I called them all. 4:25:50.320 --> 4:25:52.880 All the sad voices of men and women here and 4:25:52.960 --> 4:25:57.120 on the other side of the world. Welcome to Caiphus 4:25:57.280 --> 4:26:01.920 Business Systems. Jane speaking, Can I help you? Welcome to 4:26:01.960 --> 4:26:06.520 Tesla Mobility. Can I help you? Welcome to Roscommon Account Services. 4:26:06.640 --> 4:26:10.760 Welcome to Lighthouse Mobility. I'm looking for Misty, she helped 4:26:10.800 --> 4:26:13.680 me before. I'm sure I can help you. What's your 4:26:13.760 --> 4:26:16.960 user number, Misty, Misty knows, I said, my voice, queer 4:26:17.040 --> 4:26:19.920 less and elderly. Put on Misty. I could hear the 4:26:20.000 --> 4:26:23.240 exhaustion in his silence than the compliance. One moment, I'll 4:26:23.240 --> 4:26:27.880 transfer you. Hey, Misty, I said, Misty, Misty, you need 4:26:27.920 --> 4:26:33.240 to get to high ground. What who is this? Just promise, kay, 4:26:33.720 --> 4:26:36.760 there's no tsunami warning. It's on its way. It's passing 4:26:36.840 --> 4:26:40.880 Japan and Hawaii. It hit the Allusians California. I hope 4:26:40.920 --> 4:26:43.320 she didn't mistake me for what I felt like right then, 4:26:43.600 --> 4:26:47.040 a crazy old man, mad with loneliness, longing to hear 4:26:47.080 --> 4:26:48.840 a voice in the void, even if it was only 4:26:48.880 --> 4:26:51.200 to harangue them for the weakness of their service and 4:26:51.240 --> 4:26:57.040 the terrible nature of their product. Mark another six hours 4:26:57.040 --> 4:26:59.720 to landfall. I know you'll still be on shift. Promise. 4:27:01.880 --> 4:27:04.400 I waited for her to disconnect, which was okay because 4:27:04.440 --> 4:27:07.040 at least I told her then. I think maybe she 4:27:07.120 --> 4:27:10.560 said thank you, Mark, or maybe it was just the 4:27:10.600 --> 4:27:13.240 noise in my head. I held the line another moment 4:27:13.280 --> 4:27:16.240 that hung up. I felt okay because I got through, 4:27:16.280 --> 4:27:18.840 because I wasn't in a cubicle anymore, because I could 4:27:18.840 --> 4:27:21.400 walk home and enjoy the silence before call of duty, 4:27:21.400 --> 4:27:24.440 marathons in the living room, enjoy the ashy rain falling 4:27:24.480 --> 4:27:31.600 across my slowly cooking skin. I walked home, Misty. I 4:27:31.680 --> 4:27:36.640 walked home, hoping. Misty said thank you Mark. It felt 4:27:36.680 --> 4:27:38.520 like I was slipping through a gap in the world 4:27:38.640 --> 4:27:42.360 between noises, kind of silent passage, the way kids slip 4:27:42.360 --> 4:27:46.360 along the abandoned rail easements in town below grade, the 4:27:46.440 --> 4:27:49.800 corridors of grass and rats and squirrels and birds. Between 4:27:49.840 --> 4:27:53.560 the noise of the phones and call of duty, between heartbeats, 4:27:53.680 --> 4:27:56.800 between crusting waves, The silence you hang on too for 4:27:56.840 --> 4:27:59.320 just a moment when someone hangs up before you go 4:27:59.400 --> 4:28:02.480 on to the next call, because there is temporarily a 4:28:02.560 --> 4:28:06.320 respect from the tyranny of the queue. The silence after 4:28:06.360 --> 4:28:08.760 a bullet connects or a wave hits on the other 4:28:08.800 --> 4:28:12.080 side of the world. I just hope harder and harder 4:28:12.120 --> 4:28:15.000 and harder that Misty would insist they unlocked the doors 4:28:15.080 --> 4:28:17.720 and break the windows, and they would escape before the 4:28:17.760 --> 4:28:22.120 wave arrived to wash the rest of us away. I 4:28:22.160 --> 4:28:24.320 don't know how to add a clapping sound effect without 4:28:24.320 --> 4:28:29.520 it just sounding horrible in the audio. Airhorns, you know what, 4:28:29.720 --> 4:28:34.760 danial Um already straight seconds of air horns or or 4:28:35.080 --> 4:28:38.480 or not? Um. I think the air horns are good. 4:28:38.720 --> 4:28:42.480 I was beautiful. Yeah, that was wonderful. It's really incredible, 4:28:43.080 --> 4:28:50.880 Thank you so much, and particularly relevant now. Yeah yeah unfortunately, 4:28:50.960 --> 4:28:53.800 yeah yeah, it with what happened Yeah, yeah, that is 4:28:54.280 --> 4:28:57.640 extra extra thou the whole time, what happened in the 4:28:57.680 --> 4:29:05.960 past week. Yeah yeah, that is a It sucks hm. 4:29:08.040 --> 4:29:12.560 If people want to find more of your work, or 4:29:12.600 --> 4:29:18.560 if there's anything you'd like to plug, now is the time, okay. UM. 4:29:18.600 --> 4:29:22.520 I have a website. It's called where is here dot 4:29:22.560 --> 4:29:28.760 c a UM, and I have jeez links to a 4:29:28.760 --> 4:29:30.920 bunch of my different short stories there. I have a 4:29:31.040 --> 4:29:33.640 novella coming out next year. A few years ago I 4:29:33.640 --> 4:29:38.200 post relished a novel. Um. But if you're interested in 4:29:38.480 --> 4:29:41.400 the climate change stuff, there's probably one I'd recommend called 4:29:42.040 --> 4:29:45.480 um an Important Failure that was in Clark's World. It's 4:29:45.480 --> 4:29:48.880 available to read online. It's been translated into Polish. It's 4:29:48.880 --> 4:29:51.840 in a couple of different collections. Um And, if I'm 4:29:51.840 --> 4:29:58.400 allowed to brag, which it won the the the Sturgeon 4:29:58.400 --> 4:30:03.560 Award last year, which is a science fiction award handed 4:30:03.560 --> 4:30:07.360 out by UM, an academic organization in the US. So, 4:30:08.160 --> 4:30:10.280 and it's about it's about climate change. It's all set 4:30:10.280 --> 4:30:14.840 on Vancouver Island, in Vancouver. I've heard you. I've heard 4:30:14.880 --> 4:30:20.360 you also have stories about ghosts. Yes, I have a 4:30:20.440 --> 4:30:24.840 genre I'm trying to establish that I call obstetrical horror 4:30:25.120 --> 4:30:29.200 that I started writing when I was pregnant. Yeah, giving 4:30:29.280 --> 4:30:32.920 birth is just such body horror. So ghosts, childbirth, all 4:30:32.960 --> 4:30:36.040 that stuff. Yeah, I read a lot about ghosts as well. 4:30:36.080 --> 4:30:37.320 You can find, like I say, a lot of that 4:30:37.360 --> 4:30:40.160 stuff on my website and links to anything that's available 4:30:40.200 --> 4:30:42.240 for free online. So yeah, where is here? Dot c 4:30:42.400 --> 4:30:46.520 A And I'm on Twitter a um at Canadianist, but 4:30:47.080 --> 4:30:49.800 I don't really use it that much. So I am 4:30:49.840 --> 4:30:55.240 excited for the combination of climate change fiction with horror fiction. 4:30:56.080 --> 4:30:59.080 Um And. By excited, it's like half half actually excited, 4:30:59.240 --> 4:31:02.880 half dreading because a lot of it's gonna probably be 4:31:02.920 --> 4:31:05.560 horrible in terms of people being like, you know, what's 4:31:05.680 --> 4:31:11.080 scary climates change, and you're like, okay, but yeah, but 4:31:11.560 --> 4:31:13.800 oh sorry, go on. I don't know, but I think 4:31:13.800 --> 4:31:16.960 there definitely is a good way to combine the the 4:31:17.120 --> 4:31:19.680 essential elements of both of those things to something that 4:31:19.720 --> 4:31:23.080 actually is really impactful that plays on human fears and 4:31:23.120 --> 4:31:25.800 emotions and how we can get over those fears and 4:31:25.840 --> 4:31:30.280 move towards something useful. Yeah, and it's also that horror 4:31:30.360 --> 4:31:33.040 going back for well however long you want to, we've 4:31:33.040 --> 4:31:35.560 been telling stories has given us a series of structures 4:31:35.560 --> 4:31:39.440 to kind of process that. UM. And I think that's 4:31:39.440 --> 4:31:42.520 really valuable that their patterns we can use to work through. 4:31:42.640 --> 4:31:45.280 And I mean writing climate change fiction. For me, I 4:31:45.360 --> 4:31:49.480 just finished another novella UM that's specifically about like near 4:31:49.520 --> 4:31:53.240 future stuff and about the wildfires a lot um. But 4:31:53.800 --> 4:31:55.920 you know, having a story to tell about it as 4:31:55.920 --> 4:31:58.000 a way of processing all the research I was doing, 4:31:58.280 --> 4:32:01.960 UM was really valuable. It's it's super useful. Yeah, and 4:32:02.040 --> 4:32:04.920 just um, I mean, you can call it therapeutic if 4:32:04.920 --> 4:32:06.080 you want, but I don't think it's that. I think 4:32:06.080 --> 4:32:09.120 it's organizing information in your head that is just simply 4:32:09.200 --> 4:32:12.040 too large for you to actually grasp. I mean I 4:32:12.080 --> 4:32:15.040 can't actually grasp this stuff, but no you can't. It's 4:32:15.080 --> 4:32:21.360 it's too bad. Yeah, exactly, exactly trying to mean, Yeah, 4:32:21.400 --> 4:32:24.640 horror does that probably better than almost any other genre. Yeah, 4:32:24.760 --> 4:32:28.920 I mean look what it horror does with adolescent anxieties 4:32:29.240 --> 4:32:32.360 or um, you know, all sorts of different the fear 4:32:32.400 --> 4:32:34.520 of dying, the fear of aging, if your illness, and 4:32:34.520 --> 4:32:37.240 stuff like that. So yeah, I think we have structures 4:32:37.240 --> 4:32:41.080 in place with horror fiction, um, and with sort of 4:32:41.080 --> 4:32:43.880 science fiction horror that kind of are gonna let us 4:32:44.200 --> 4:32:47.680 start to process things that are otherwise just too intellectual 4:32:48.240 --> 4:32:51.200 or not intellectual. But to abstract it's too it's too Yeah, 4:32:51.240 --> 4:32:53.520 abstractors I think is the right term, because I mean, like, 4:32:54.280 --> 4:32:57.640 I guess my fear of that is that, like climate change, 4:32:57.720 --> 4:33:01.600 fiction is just gonna resort to like the disaster story 4:33:01.920 --> 4:33:05.440 and it has very like glamorized weird versions of like 4:33:05.480 --> 4:33:12.040 apocalypses and disasters and like collapse and very like big 4:33:12.160 --> 4:33:15.400 ways that impact everything around you, when in actuality, the 4:33:15.400 --> 4:33:18.120 effects that they have are very localized and small and 4:33:18.120 --> 4:33:21.600 are still horrifying, but the way that they're framed is 4:33:21.600 --> 4:33:23.640 always frustrating in films, and you look at like, you know, 4:33:23.680 --> 4:33:27.800 a typical like you know, like apocalypse themed movie, I 4:33:27.840 --> 4:33:32.759 think is I'm afraid that the bigger you know, if 4:33:32.800 --> 4:33:35.879 you turn turn talking about like big movies, how it's 4:33:35.919 --> 4:33:37.919 going to frame in that way instead of these more 4:33:38.000 --> 4:33:40.880 kind of personal stories of like the horror of being 4:33:40.880 --> 4:33:43.880 trapped inside a warehouse as a tornado comes and you're 4:33:43.919 --> 4:33:46.919 not allowed to leave, which is a way more horrifying 4:33:47.200 --> 4:33:51.000 than oh, look, all of New York City is crumbling 4:33:51.160 --> 4:33:54.840 because of this pseudami, which is so big and like possible, 4:33:54.960 --> 4:33:57.960 I guess, but like that's so big you can't feel that. 4:33:58.320 --> 4:34:01.040 And what's more like gonna happen is people getting trapped 4:34:01.080 --> 4:34:03.280 in buildings and not being allowed to leave. And that's 4:34:03.600 --> 4:34:07.800 that's that's like, that's actual horner. Yeah. And it's intimate too, 4:34:07.840 --> 4:34:11.280 write like it's not it's not in distant idea, it's intimate. 4:34:11.320 --> 4:34:14.400 It's the particular consequence of something for a community, for 4:34:14.440 --> 4:34:17.960 an individual, for relationships, And if I can go on 4:34:17.960 --> 4:34:22.040 on this um there's an entire genre of apocalyptic fiction 4:34:22.040 --> 4:34:23.640 that kind of comes out of the early Cold War, 4:34:24.040 --> 4:34:28.080 and they're always these weirdly cozy apocalypse is where one 4:34:28.200 --> 4:34:32.480 white guy survives and in the new world he builds 4:34:32.600 --> 4:34:35.960 this kind of feudal fantasy. So I've actually this one 4:34:36.040 --> 4:34:39.280 filled The Last Babylon, where a character says, of these 4:34:39.280 --> 4:34:42.480 two spinster ladies that were miserable before the nuclear war. 4:34:43.000 --> 4:34:45.399 After the nuclear war, they're really happy because their lives 4:34:45.400 --> 4:34:48.560 have meaning now. And it's this, it's those are the 4:34:48.560 --> 4:34:51.560 apocalyptic stories that we've had. We need a new kind 4:34:51.640 --> 4:34:53.560 of story, a new kind of horror that I think, 4:34:54.240 --> 4:34:56.600 um that does exactly what you're talking about, that doesn't 4:34:56.840 --> 4:35:01.520 default to that weird heroism and one surviving kind of thing. 4:35:02.160 --> 4:35:06.200 There's a wonderful Corey doctor short story that that I 4:35:06.240 --> 4:35:10.840 think pivots off that idea nicely. Um in his his book, Uh, 4:35:11.960 --> 4:35:18.200 What is Unauthorized Toast? I think Bread an Authorized Bread 4:35:18.240 --> 4:35:20.199 is one of the stories in it, but the book 4:35:20.280 --> 4:35:23.240 is has a different it's a collection of his short stories. 4:35:23.280 --> 4:35:26.560 But there's um a post apocalyptic story that kind of 4:35:26.600 --> 4:35:29.759 follows a bunch of tech bros trying to do the 4:35:29.759 --> 4:35:33.960 traditional like survive the the apocalypse makes everything, you know 4:35:34.360 --> 4:35:36.120 better for me. I get to be a cool warlord 4:35:36.160 --> 4:35:40.120 thing and it's it's good. It doesn't end well for them. 4:35:40.240 --> 4:35:44.640 Um yeah, I I think the I think the thing 4:35:44.800 --> 4:35:48.320 that is important to do is like focus on the 4:35:48.360 --> 4:35:52.040 horror of the little things, like the little things on 4:35:52.120 --> 4:35:54.000 like a global scale. Like, like, the thing that is 4:35:54.040 --> 4:35:57.320 so frightening about climate change is that all of these 4:35:57.520 --> 4:36:00.840 the terrible things it's bringing are going to hit the 4:36:00.880 --> 4:36:03.719 same way mass shootings do, where it is a calamity 4:36:03.840 --> 4:36:08.960 for a community and people fifty miles away try to 4:36:09.000 --> 4:36:12.680 pretend it didn't happen and get to doing like their 4:36:12.720 --> 4:36:16.440 their daily stuff, Like that's what's that's what's so scary 4:36:16.480 --> 4:36:18.719 about it. It's not like you said, it's not the 4:36:18.759 --> 4:36:21.520 buildings in New York collapsing from a tidal wave. It's 4:36:21.560 --> 4:36:23.600 the birds stop singing and you still have to go 4:36:23.640 --> 4:36:26.440 to work. I'm I'm I'm writing a script right now 4:36:26.520 --> 4:36:30.880 for probably the show about how climate change is hard 4:36:30.880 --> 4:36:33.200 to think about because because how how big it is. 4:36:33.640 --> 4:36:36.520 And one of like the models that I'm trying to 4:36:36.560 --> 4:36:39.040 draw a comparison from is like it's almost like climate 4:36:39.120 --> 4:36:41.400 changes is like a type is like a type of 4:36:41.400 --> 4:36:44.920 Cathulhu in terms of the way it affects you, but 4:36:45.440 --> 4:36:48.879 you'll probably get by it's it can affect your neighbors, 4:36:48.880 --> 4:36:50.720 and you can watch it and you can watch it 4:36:50.720 --> 4:36:54.040 have other people, But like, it doesn't mean that your 4:36:54.160 --> 4:36:56.040 life is going to end this way because it's so 4:36:56.200 --> 4:36:58.720 it's so big and uncaring. It can attack so many 4:36:58.720 --> 4:37:03.200 places at once, but you don't know how like how 4:37:03.240 --> 4:37:06.160 big this effects are and how and what what what 4:37:06.160 --> 4:37:09.680 what the scale of them will be on your local area. 4:37:10.120 --> 4:37:12.040 So it's like this, it's this thing that is way 4:37:12.040 --> 4:37:15.320 more existential than anything else because it it does not 4:37:15.520 --> 4:37:17.800 it does not care, it has it has no morality. 4:37:18.080 --> 4:37:20.480 It's it's not it's not out to get you specifically. 4:37:20.800 --> 4:37:24.360 It's this weird, this weird thing that's just getting imposed 4:37:24.400 --> 4:37:28.080 upon us now. And that type of horror in fiction, 4:37:28.240 --> 4:37:30.160 I think is something that at least I want to 4:37:30.200 --> 4:37:32.560 explore in my next few years of writing. And I'm 4:37:32.600 --> 4:37:35.120 excited to read other people's work who kind of covered 4:37:35.160 --> 4:37:39.680 that similar side of horror and combining with like climate 4:37:39.759 --> 4:37:43.079 change and the small ways it's going to start affecting 4:37:43.200 --> 4:37:49.640 us in places around the world. I think, um that 4:37:50.160 --> 4:37:52.400 what you said and isn't isn't there someone you talks 4:37:52.400 --> 4:37:57.600 about the Catholic scene, I don't know. Yeah, that's Donna Harroway, 4:37:57.800 --> 4:38:01.520 Donna Harroway, that's it. Yeah. Um. But but also just 4:38:01.600 --> 4:38:04.720 how weak some of our previous narratives like you can't 4:38:04.840 --> 4:38:09.880 you can't bring in you new Judeo Christian apocalypse is 4:38:10.160 --> 4:38:12.080 to this kind of thing because we can't. There's not 4:38:12.200 --> 4:38:14.320 you can't. We can't have that kind of moralizing in 4:38:14.360 --> 4:38:17.800 it um that we need. And that's honestly, Catholo is 4:38:17.840 --> 4:38:21.520 really handy for that cosmic horror because it forces you to, 4:38:21.600 --> 4:38:24.520 as you say, face something on an existential level, um, 4:38:24.560 --> 4:38:26.840 that how you feel and who you are and your 4:38:26.840 --> 4:38:30.440 individual experience does not matter. So it's like a lot 4:38:30.480 --> 4:38:33.360 of people, like you know us, we're watching what's happening 4:38:33.400 --> 4:38:36.520 in Kansas right now, and like I'm not in Kansas. 4:38:36.640 --> 4:38:39.200 I don't know anyone in Kansas. I'm looking at this 4:38:39.320 --> 4:38:42.919 calamity and it's so distant from me, but yet it's 4:38:42.919 --> 4:38:48.320 also very close. And that's a weird feeling to deal with. UM. 4:38:48.360 --> 4:38:51.960 And I can see, oh yeah, corporations are contributing to 4:38:52.000 --> 4:38:55.080 this specifically like climate change as in general, but like 4:38:55.240 --> 4:38:58.280 Amazon trapping people inside inside inside these warehouses. It's like, 4:38:58.840 --> 4:39:01.480 I can there's way used to fight extensions of this, 4:39:01.880 --> 4:39:05.759 but you can't fight it. You can only fight its extensions. 4:39:06.240 --> 4:39:08.960 And that's and yeah, it's it's it's a super it's 4:39:08.960 --> 4:39:13.200 a super interesting thing that I'm gonna I think, Yeah, 4:39:13.240 --> 4:39:15.280 we are going to see you know this, this idea 4:39:15.360 --> 4:39:17.800 get dealt with more and more as these things start 4:39:17.880 --> 4:39:22.800 happening more and more. Um, and yeah, I mean climate change, 4:39:22.800 --> 4:39:29.239 cosmic corps, maybe maybe the way to go. Yeah, yeah, 4:39:29.280 --> 4:39:31.880 I think that's I think that's a good line to 4:39:32.040 --> 4:39:35.080 end on, or at least a good thought to end on. Well, 4:39:35.080 --> 4:39:37.840 thank you so much, Rebecca for coming on and sharing 4:39:37.880 --> 4:39:40.960 your story. Would you mind plugging your website one last 4:39:41.000 --> 4:39:45.880 time since we extra like fifteen minutes? No, no, no, no, 4:39:46.160 --> 4:39:52.320 that's that's that's good. People may not have noted it 4:39:52.440 --> 4:39:55.960 last time before the conversation. We should give them another chance. Okay, 4:39:56.000 --> 4:39:59.000 So the website is where is here? Dot c A. 4:39:59.759 --> 4:40:02.800 It's O w h E R I s H E 4:40:03.040 --> 4:40:06.760 r E dot c A. Excellent. All right, Well, thank 4:40:06.800 --> 4:40:12.920 you very much, Rebecca. Um, until next time, everybody lose 4:40:12.960 --> 4:40:17.720 your mind with the cosmic horror, something something, anything, any 4:40:17.759 --> 4:40:21.000 kind of cosmic harror that consus you to to your 4:40:21.120 --> 4:40:24.800 your mind to scramble and you to begin worshiping in 4:40:24.880 --> 4:40:27.040 the dark corners of the world. Any anything that does 4:40:27.080 --> 4:40:30.400 that is good. So well, thank you so much for 4:40:30.440 --> 4:40:34.120 having me. It's an absolute pleasure, very very happy to 4:40:34.160 --> 4:40:56.200 have you. It could happen here to welcome the Evans 4:40:56.280 --> 4:41:01.880 Robert podcast. End of the World and beginning of news. Yeah. 4:41:02.320 --> 4:41:06.680 I think we did it right. Evans, Evans Robert. Who's 4:41:06.720 --> 4:41:11.080 here with us? That would be killed Joy, Margaret and 4:41:11.200 --> 4:41:15.640 Victorman Sophie. I like this m keeping Victim Comma Sophie, 4:41:15.680 --> 4:41:20.920 kill Joy Comma Margaret, Um Margaret common as I could 4:41:20.919 --> 4:41:28.200 also attorney's general you kill Joy's Margaret. One of my 4:41:28.280 --> 4:41:33.600 hobbies is anytime I pluralize something, attorneys generally it Um, Margaret. 4:41:33.680 --> 4:41:35.840 How are you? How are you doing on this beautiful 4:41:36.200 --> 4:41:41.000 December day. I'm good. I just got my booster shot 4:41:41.040 --> 4:41:44.480 and the negative effects haven't kicked in yet. That's good. Um. 4:41:44.480 --> 4:41:47.240 How does it feel to have, like as your internet 4:41:47.240 --> 4:41:49.840 sped up now that I have a boost? Yeah, I'm 4:41:49.840 --> 4:41:54.960 making the same fight that everybody makes because it's easier 4:41:54.960 --> 4:41:57.120 than thinking about the fact that, oh, Macron looks like 4:41:57.160 --> 4:42:00.480 it's going to be a real, real, right mare, and 4:42:00.520 --> 4:42:03.800 the world's never going to go back to you know, 4:42:03.840 --> 4:42:06.080 it's not going back to normal. I miss It's it's 4:42:06.120 --> 4:42:08.919 being able to walk into a bar and not worry 4:42:08.960 --> 4:42:11.840 that I was going to catch a new variant of 4:42:11.840 --> 4:42:19.840 a plague. Yeah, yeah, that's a yeah. Yeah, how are 4:42:19.880 --> 4:42:25.120 you doing with the plague? I live completely alone and isolated, 4:42:25.280 --> 4:42:28.600 so which I you know, I'm not sure this is 4:42:28.600 --> 4:42:30.240 how I would have built my life if I hadn't 4:42:30.280 --> 4:42:33.640 done it during a plague. Yeah, I mean, well, I 4:42:33.720 --> 4:42:38.840 dream about interacting with humans. Yeah, just like hugging a 4:42:38.919 --> 4:42:42.039 person that that you don't know all that well and 4:42:42.200 --> 4:42:46.359 it not being like involving both of you risking your life. 4:42:46.480 --> 4:42:52.880 It's like a blood pact. Yes, we're going, Doug, and 4:42:52.919 --> 4:42:56.399 if we wind up in how we'll scream at Satan together. Um, 4:42:56.600 --> 4:43:01.760 come hug. You have written another story. I mean you 4:43:01.759 --> 4:43:03.480 wrote this a while ago, as you did with the 4:43:03.520 --> 4:43:05.600 last one. But we're doing We decided we one of 4:43:05.640 --> 4:43:07.120 the things we wanted to do to close this year 4:43:07.120 --> 4:43:10.719 out was a little bit more fiction, because fiction I 4:43:10.759 --> 4:43:19.360 think plays an underappreciated role in revolutionary practice in kind 4:43:19.400 --> 4:43:24.239 of every aspect of being someone who envisions the different world. 4:43:24.520 --> 4:43:27.079 Um so we we've always I mean, it could happen here. 4:43:27.120 --> 4:43:29.160 From the beginning, there was always a strong kind of 4:43:29.840 --> 4:43:35.400 um uh focus on fiction. Um and I'm really happy 4:43:35.520 --> 4:43:39.079 to be presenting another one of your stories today. Thanks. 4:43:40.080 --> 4:43:44.480 You want to introduced this piece, sure. This piece is 4:43:44.480 --> 4:43:46.759 called The Free Yorks of Cascadia. It was first published 4:43:46.759 --> 4:43:49.360 in Fantasy and Science Fiction, which is the name of 4:43:49.360 --> 4:43:52.520 a magazine. And this one was also really important to 4:43:52.520 --> 4:43:54.480 me because Fantasy and Science Fiction F and s F 4:43:54.600 --> 4:43:56.440 was one of the magazines that my my dad had 4:43:56.480 --> 4:43:59.520 a subscription to. Yeah, they go this a while. Yeah, 4:44:00.000 --> 4:44:03.640 this was a very um uh and it was a 4:44:03.720 --> 4:44:07.200 very important piece for me that it got published there. Yeah, 4:44:07.240 --> 4:44:13.280 that's awesome. Um well, let's uh, let's let's let's take 4:44:13.320 --> 4:44:18.640 a take a hop in a publicly funded bus and 4:44:19.040 --> 4:44:22.919 roll down to Storytown. Speaking of taking one's life in 4:44:22.919 --> 4:44:27.239 one's hands. The story is called The Free Orcs of Cascadia. 4:44:28.800 --> 4:44:30.680 You all know the first part of the story, the 4:44:30.720 --> 4:44:33.600 song ended in blood. It was two years ago in 4:44:33.640 --> 4:44:37.200 the summer. Rick Green, the singer of Goblin Forest crooned 4:44:37.200 --> 4:44:40.360 in his osbornesque voice to fifteen thousand Goblin metal fans. 4:44:41.240 --> 4:44:43.760 A short man wearing green body paint and brown leather 4:44:43.800 --> 4:44:46.960 stepped out from backstage, drew a sword and cut the 4:44:47.000 --> 4:44:50.440 singer down from behind. The last lyrics, Green Ever sang 4:44:50.480 --> 4:44:53.440 where take me back, take me back, take me back 4:44:53.440 --> 4:44:56.919 to the Misty Mountains. The man with the sword, of course, 4:44:56.960 --> 4:44:59.800 was Golf and Bull, the rhythm guitarist for Crumpatool. The 4:45:00.000 --> 4:45:02.400 been an act. He and his bandmates escaped in the 4:45:02.480 --> 4:45:06.360 ensuing chaos and remain at large to this day. Neither 4:45:06.400 --> 4:45:08.759 band has released a song or played a show Since 4:45:09.200 --> 4:45:11.480 the rest of Goblin Forest decided to call it quits. 4:45:11.520 --> 4:45:14.640 Without Green and crimp Atool, no one knew what happened 4:45:14.680 --> 4:45:18.440 to Crimpatool. Fans deserted the genre in droves, and overnight 4:45:18.440 --> 4:45:21.079 Goblin Medal went from stadium rock fad to a niche 4:45:21.120 --> 4:45:25.160 interest of the obscure Canadian orc cults were originated. It 4:45:25.240 --> 4:45:28.160 was no longer hip to be Green. If Golf and 4:45:28.200 --> 4:45:30.360 Bull had been trying to take the Goblin Medal throne, 4:45:30.640 --> 4:45:35.360 as it were, he failed spectacularly. Rumors have flown about 4:45:35.400 --> 4:45:38.280 motives and locations, but there have been no arrests and 4:45:38.320 --> 4:45:41.080 no public statement from the band. All we've had to 4:45:41.120 --> 4:45:46.480 work with were rumors until now. Earlier this month, Orc 4:45:46.560 --> 4:45:49.360 folk act uls Ereth listed Golf and Bull as the 4:45:49.400 --> 4:45:52.039 harpist in their liner notes of the single The Gray 4:45:52.080 --> 4:45:55.600 Fog of a Ruined Forest. Lsyth was as obscure as 4:45:55.600 --> 4:45:59.000 Crimpatool was infamous. The band had never done an interview, 4:45:59.120 --> 4:46:02.240 not even a photos shoot. Like everyone else these days 4:46:02.240 --> 4:46:07.919 in countercultural music, their videos featured only masked performers. I've 4:46:07.960 --> 4:46:10.680 been casually obsessed with post civilization culture ever since the 4:46:10.680 --> 4:46:13.840 Communicate from the Junkyard Rats of the Rust Belt, and 4:46:13.880 --> 4:46:16.520 I've been covering music of pretty much every secessionist movement 4:46:16.520 --> 4:46:19.840 and subculture I could sink my teeth into since after 4:46:19.880 --> 4:46:21.920 I saw those liner notes, I put out feelers to 4:46:22.040 --> 4:46:24.320 friends and friends of friends, and I waited, and last 4:46:24.320 --> 4:46:26.720 week I was invited to go to an Orc village 4:46:26.800 --> 4:46:30.600 hidden away in the burned forests of Cascadia. I was 4:46:30.640 --> 4:46:32.560 invited to be the first person to tell Golf and 4:46:32.600 --> 4:46:37.120 Bull's story hell Fire Harriet Exclusive. Usually I post full 4:46:37.160 --> 4:46:39.480 interviews for everyone, but reserve my travel diary for the 4:46:39.520 --> 4:46:42.240 patrons of my blog. This time, though, I'm foregoing that 4:46:42.320 --> 4:46:44.760 this story is too important, so I've interspersed to the 4:46:44.800 --> 4:46:48.080 two below. All I knew before I went with what 4:46:48.160 --> 4:46:51.079 everyone else knew. Three years ago, a bunch of metal 4:46:51.080 --> 4:46:53.600 heads and hippies and burners and nerds all decided to 4:46:53.680 --> 4:46:56.320 dress up like orcs and goblins, and some of them 4:46:56.320 --> 4:46:58.840 took it too far and decided to distance themselves from 4:46:58.880 --> 4:47:02.600 the rest of society. They got really famous one summer, 4:47:02.759 --> 4:47:05.560 then that fame died in a single bloody act, and 4:47:05.600 --> 4:47:07.760 who knows what kind of weird ship they're up to. Now, 4:47:08.919 --> 4:47:11.120 Before you get worried, no, I will never offer a 4:47:11.160 --> 4:47:14.280 platform to a fascist. Fascist. Fascism, as it turns out, 4:47:14.400 --> 4:47:16.880 is the furthest thing from golf and Ball's mind. What 4:47:17.000 --> 4:47:20.880 he's into is a lot weirder than that. Still, it's 4:47:20.919 --> 4:47:23.079 sort of lucky that I survived to write this story. 4:47:25.320 --> 4:47:29.440 So you killed a guy, Yeah, I killed a guy. 4:47:30.080 --> 4:47:32.120 We stared in silence at one another for a while. 4:47:32.480 --> 4:47:34.759 He wore rawhide and fur, and not much of either. 4:47:35.160 --> 4:47:37.040 He wasn't painted up, but his skin was sort of 4:47:37.120 --> 4:47:40.440 natural olive. His lower teeth were filed down to fangs 4:47:40.480 --> 4:47:43.920 like any serious works. There was still something unassuming about 4:47:44.000 --> 4:47:48.120 him that I have a hard time describing. You're waiting 4:47:48.160 --> 4:47:50.560 for me to tell you about it, aren't you. The 4:47:50.600 --> 4:47:53.960 interview was not off to a good start. Are you 4:47:54.000 --> 4:47:57.280 worried about how your words will sound in court? I 4:47:57.400 --> 4:47:59.920 killed Rick Green on stage with a sword in front 4:47:59.919 --> 4:48:02.760 of thousands of witnesses. Talking to the media isn't going 4:48:02.800 --> 4:48:04.960 to make anything worse for me at this point, and 4:48:05.000 --> 4:48:07.160 I don't respect the authority of the US government to 4:48:07.200 --> 4:48:09.759 hold me accountable for my actions. I will not go 4:48:09.840 --> 4:48:13.560 to court. So why do you do it? The old 4:48:13.600 --> 4:48:17.120 world is dying My world, the Free Orcs of Cascadia. 4:48:17.320 --> 4:48:19.440 We're not going to replace the old world, but we 4:48:19.480 --> 4:48:22.240 will be part of its replacement. In order to do that, 4:48:22.320 --> 4:48:25.239 we have to take ourselves seriously. An element of that 4:48:25.280 --> 4:48:27.920 struggle is the struggle to create meaning, to create a 4:48:27.919 --> 4:48:31.399 new sacred. I killed Rick Green because he was defiling 4:48:31.520 --> 4:48:36.640 something meant to be sacred. How so we share an aesthetic, 4:48:36.840 --> 4:48:39.320 but he didn't understand what it meant to be an orc. 4:48:40.680 --> 4:48:43.680 You killed him because he was a poser. I guess 4:48:43.680 --> 4:48:47.480 you could put it like that. So the lesson here is, 4:48:47.919 --> 4:48:52.520 don't be a poser. Don't be a poser. You heard 4:48:52.520 --> 4:48:54.960 it here first. Kids, don't be opposer, or golf and 4:48:55.040 --> 4:48:59.120 ball will literally murder you. They picked me up in 4:48:59.120 --> 4:49:01.560 the parking lot of girl This re outlet in northeast Portland. 4:49:02.000 --> 4:49:04.600 That's a mundane detail, I suppose, but perhaps the single 4:49:04.600 --> 4:49:06.960 most remarkable thing about my trip was the ever present 4:49:07.040 --> 4:49:10.560 contrast between mandanity and the bizarre. I bought a case 4:49:10.560 --> 4:49:14.120 of coconut water while we waited. Works might like coconut water. 4:49:14.560 --> 4:49:17.560 Who doesn't like coconut water? They showed up in a 4:49:17.600 --> 4:49:20.040 mid teens Honda Civic Sedan, and I've been hoping for 4:49:20.080 --> 4:49:23.200 something out of Mad Max. The two women who got out, 4:49:23.200 --> 4:49:26.200 one cis one trans, both white, were dressed in clean 4:49:26.240 --> 4:49:28.880 gray tank tops and leggings like half the women who 4:49:28.880 --> 4:49:31.480 live in Portland. To be honest, I only noticed them 4:49:31.520 --> 4:49:33.559 in the parking lot at all because the trans woman 4:49:33.640 --> 4:49:37.040 was cute. Hell Fire this this woman asked. She was 4:49:37.080 --> 4:49:39.680 tall and severe, with the fierce but almost trustworthy look 4:49:39.680 --> 4:49:42.239 of a loan shark, or, as it turned out, an 4:49:42.320 --> 4:49:46.600 Orchis enforcer. That's me, I said, Fenrik. This this woman 4:49:46.640 --> 4:49:49.040 offered her name, but no handshake. Fist bump or hug. 4:49:49.680 --> 4:49:53.440 I nodded. Norinda, the trans woman said, like a lot 4:49:53.480 --> 4:49:55.759 of trans women these days, she didn't bother to feminize 4:49:55.759 --> 4:49:58.800 her voice. Her name sounded familiar, but I couldn't place it. 4:49:59.640 --> 4:50:01.880 How is this going to work? I asked. We're going 4:50:01.919 --> 4:50:03.719 to drive around back where no one can see us. 4:50:03.720 --> 4:50:06.240 Fenric said, We're going to take your phone and laptop 4:50:06.280 --> 4:50:08.160 and any electronics and put them in a fara day 4:50:08.160 --> 4:50:10.320 in the car. Then we're going to put you in 4:50:10.360 --> 4:50:12.960 the trunk and drive out to the forest. Will provide 4:50:13.000 --> 4:50:15.360 you with a recorder and notebook when we arrive. You'll 4:50:15.360 --> 4:50:18.320 get your stuff back when we leave. I nodded, I'd 4:50:18.320 --> 4:50:21.440 pretty much expected this. Do you need to use the bathroom? 4:50:21.480 --> 4:50:24.880 Nor Into asked, have any medical conditions we should know about? No, 4:50:25.080 --> 4:50:27.720 and no, I said, either of you want a coconut water? 4:50:30.840 --> 4:50:33.759 Goblin Forests sang in English, but Crimptool's lyrics were all 4:50:33.759 --> 4:50:37.920 in Tolkien's Black Speech. Dark speech. Are lyrics were in 4:50:38.120 --> 4:50:41.919 dark Speech. Tolkien referred to the language as black speech. 4:50:42.640 --> 4:50:45.320 Token meant well, but he was about the most influential 4:50:45.440 --> 4:50:49.440 unconsciously racist author of the twentieth century. All his villains 4:50:49.480 --> 4:50:52.280 were either Green or Middle Eastern. When you engage with 4:50:52.280 --> 4:50:55.120 the work of historical authors, especially when you make derivative 4:50:55.120 --> 4:50:57.920 works a century later, you have to adapt to one's 4:50:57.960 --> 4:51:01.800 own social context. Calling the language black speech today is 4:51:01.880 --> 4:51:05.879 at best wildly misleading. Its name is a translation anyway, 4:51:06.000 --> 4:51:10.000 It's possible that dark speech is just as accurate. Besides, 4:51:10.240 --> 4:51:13.360 Token didn't write the language. He only wrote like sixteen 4:51:13.360 --> 4:51:16.840 words or something. We wrote the rest. Most of us 4:51:16.840 --> 4:51:19.320 prefer to translate the name of it as dark speech, 4:51:20.440 --> 4:51:24.440 since where murderers PC, my status as a person who 4:51:24.440 --> 4:51:27.480 has ended the life of another person carries no implications 4:51:27.520 --> 4:51:30.239 about my personal ethics other than that I clearly believe 4:51:30.240 --> 4:51:33.200 there are circumstances under which it's okay to kill someone. 4:51:35.680 --> 4:51:38.360 Imagine being at the Renaissance Fair when the apocalypse hits 4:51:38.800 --> 4:51:41.640 and you're stuck trying to recreate society, surrounded by swords 4:51:41.640 --> 4:51:44.240 and minstrels and these and thous. You know how that 4:51:44.280 --> 4:51:46.360 sounds like either heaven or held, depending on who you 4:51:46.400 --> 4:51:49.640 are and also who you're stuck there with. That was 4:51:49.680 --> 4:51:52.840 my first impression of the village of Graymorrow. The fires 4:51:52.840 --> 4:51:55.480 out west have burned forest after forest and small town 4:51:55.560 --> 4:51:57.680 after small town. And no one tries to deny that 4:51:57.680 --> 4:51:59.960 pretty much every bioregion on the planet is going through 4:52:00.040 --> 4:52:04.240 transformation right now. It's in the worst spots, these dead ecologies, 4:52:04.240 --> 4:52:07.280 that the post civilization movement has found its roots, like 4:52:07.360 --> 4:52:11.360 wild flowers growing up between paving stones or rat's hiding 4:52:11.400 --> 4:52:13.480 in the walls. I guess, depending on who you ask, 4:52:15.040 --> 4:52:17.480 Gray Morrow sits in the scorched graveyard of a Douglas 4:52:17.520 --> 4:52:20.000 Fir forest, halfway up a mountain, occupying the remains of 4:52:20.040 --> 4:52:23.680 an evacuated town. Slab foundations are all that remain of 4:52:23.720 --> 4:52:27.000 the original structures. A seasonal creek runs through what was 4:52:27.040 --> 4:52:29.040 recently a river bed at the edge of the village, 4:52:29.400 --> 4:52:32.280 and long abandoned train tracks skirt the ridge above town. 4:52:32.960 --> 4:52:35.240 Even armed with all of that information, you'd still have 4:52:35.240 --> 4:52:39.359 at least seventy or eighty possible spots to search. Satellite 4:52:39.360 --> 4:52:42.040 imagery would help, of course, I can't imagine that the 4:52:42.040 --> 4:52:44.000 Big Six texts or the U. S Government don't know 4:52:44.000 --> 4:52:47.560 where Gray Morrow is. The residents of Gray Morrow in general, 4:52:47.600 --> 4:52:50.120 and Golf and Bole in particular, had an awful lot 4:52:50.160 --> 4:52:53.960 to lose by letting me write this report. Nourenda let 4:52:53.960 --> 4:52:55.600 me out of the trunk, and she smiled when she 4:52:55.640 --> 4:52:58.480 saw me. Her bottom teeth were filed. That should have 4:52:58.480 --> 4:53:01.000 been unnerving, but I've always been a sucker for face 4:53:01.040 --> 4:53:03.720 tattoos or anything that really shows someone is going for broke. 4:53:04.440 --> 4:53:07.960 Fenric just stared at me severe. Being severe was pretty 4:53:08.000 --> 4:53:10.200 much her thing, as far as I could tell. She 4:53:10.240 --> 4:53:13.800 took a sip from her coconut water. Three other cars 4:53:13.800 --> 4:53:16.720 filled a makeshift parking lot. The village itself was surrounded 4:53:16.720 --> 4:53:19.080 by a wall built from black and logs, set upright 4:53:19.120 --> 4:53:22.520 and buried in the ruins of the road. My escorts 4:53:22.520 --> 4:53:25.400 had changed clothes and route. Fenric looked like a bandit 4:53:25.440 --> 4:53:28.280 out of Skyrim, complete with iron pauldron on one shoulder 4:53:28.360 --> 4:53:31.160 and a hand axe strapped to her belt. I won't 4:53:31.240 --> 4:53:33.960 lie it was a good look. I'm no fashion reporter, 4:53:34.000 --> 4:53:35.840 but I figured half the magazines in New York would 4:53:35.840 --> 4:53:37.440 love to get someone out here and take pictures of 4:53:37.520 --> 4:53:41.120 orcs like her. Nornda wore a simple, modest dress of 4:53:41.200 --> 4:53:45.280 undyed wool. Imagine a Viking kindergarten teacher who also wears 4:53:45.320 --> 4:53:47.960 a rather large dagger horizontally on her belt at the 4:53:48.000 --> 4:53:51.600 small of her back. My crushing on her intensified. She 4:53:51.720 --> 4:53:54.520 handed me a spiral notebook and an old fashioned digital recorder, 4:53:54.640 --> 4:53:59.000 and we walked into the village. A lot of people 4:53:59.040 --> 4:54:01.640 say that you killed Rick Green because you're jealous of 4:54:01.640 --> 4:54:05.280 Goblin Forest's success. That the orci Is Code insisted that 4:54:05.320 --> 4:54:07.280 if you wanted the throne, you had to kill the 4:54:07.320 --> 4:54:11.399 reigning monarch. Golf and Bull stopped fidgeting and stared directly 4:54:11.440 --> 4:54:16.079 at me, his dark brown eyes boring into me. That's bullshit. 4:54:17.080 --> 4:54:22.080 I'm sorry, it's like three layers deep of bullshit. He 4:54:22.160 --> 4:54:24.560 was still staring at me. I was starting to regret 4:54:24.560 --> 4:54:27.919 this line of questioning. Okay, to start, there are pretty 4:54:28.000 --> 4:54:30.559 much two ways to interpret the Orcis Code of Honor. 4:54:30.720 --> 4:54:34.160 It's not written down anywhere, but there's some strong central themes, 4:54:34.200 --> 4:54:38.360 like an interdependence between individual sovereignty and collective identity. We 4:54:38.480 --> 4:54:42.640 value strength, but the idea is that everyone develops their 4:54:42.640 --> 4:54:45.399 own strengths, whatever they may be, for the benefit of all. 4:54:45.680 --> 4:54:47.720 One should be as self reliant as one is able 4:54:47.759 --> 4:54:49.800 to be, both for one's own sake and again for 4:54:49.840 --> 4:54:53.960 the community's sake. I cared deeply about this. That same 4:54:54.000 --> 4:54:57.960 basic idea, though, can be interpreted two different ways. So 4:54:58.040 --> 4:55:00.960 there's a split in the arc community. Damn right, there's 4:55:01.000 --> 4:55:03.520 a split. The free Orcs are matriarchal and the or 4:55:03.600 --> 4:55:07.800 Seene are patriarchal. Golfin Bill produced a cigarette from god 4:55:07.840 --> 4:55:10.840 knows where, considering how little he was wearing, and lit 4:55:10.880 --> 4:55:13.440 it with a lighter from the same mysterious origin. It 4:55:13.560 --> 4:55:18.560 wasn't tobacco, it wasn't weed. Maybe mugwart. The matriarchal way 4:55:18.560 --> 4:55:22.359 of interpreting those tenants is roughly anarchist. It's anti authoritarian, 4:55:22.440 --> 4:55:25.520 an anti nationalist. At the very least. We respect the 4:55:25.560 --> 4:55:29.040 wisdom of elders, children and women self identifying women. But 4:55:29.080 --> 4:55:31.759 the hierarchy is anything but rigid, and the guidelines are 4:55:31.759 --> 4:55:35.240 anything but laws. Most importantly, our sense of community or 4:55:35.320 --> 4:55:39.280 tribe is fluid. Gray Morrow is a free Orc village. 4:55:39.919 --> 4:55:42.800 Go fifteen miles southeast and you'll find a larger village 4:55:42.919 --> 4:55:47.160 lonely mountain there or seen. The patriarchal way of interpreting 4:55:47.240 --> 4:55:51.720 Orchish tenants is roughly fascistic. Authority is absolute. Rank within 4:55:51.759 --> 4:55:55.120 the hierarchy effects every aspect of one's own life. It's 4:55:55.120 --> 4:55:59.200 not racialized, but it's nationalistic. There are very specific considerations 4:55:59.200 --> 4:56:02.160 of who is isn't a part of any given social grouping, 4:56:02.400 --> 4:56:05.800 and definitions of strength tend to skew toward boring ship 4:56:06.040 --> 4:56:10.080 like physical size and power. So you tell any doubters 4:56:10.120 --> 4:56:12.320 that you weren't trying to claim the goblin throne because 4:56:12.440 --> 4:56:15.640 your faction of Orcs doesn't work that way. No orci 4:56:15.680 --> 4:56:18.800 Is culture works that way. Even those fascistic ships don't 4:56:18.840 --> 4:56:21.240 work that way. Among the or Seen. If you kill 4:56:21.280 --> 4:56:23.880 your superior, people aren't going to just suddenly start kissing 4:56:23.880 --> 4:56:26.640 your ass. They will literally flee you and turn your 4:56:26.680 --> 4:56:29.640 skin into a battle flag. You advance and rank by 4:56:29.680 --> 4:56:33.840 demonstrating your capacity to lead. This isn't some fucking Hollywood bullshit. 4:56:34.200 --> 4:56:37.160 Evil is a lot more banal than that. I didn't 4:56:37.200 --> 4:56:39.200 have the heart or maybe the courage to tell him 4:56:39.240 --> 4:56:42.400 that to me too, pretty much, any outsider Hollywood bullshit 4:56:42.480 --> 4:56:45.480 is exactly what the whole place looked like. When you 4:56:45.520 --> 4:56:48.160 say battle flag, what do you mean? Who do they do? 4:56:48.200 --> 4:56:52.680 Battle with? Us? The free Orcs? Are you at war 4:56:53.400 --> 4:56:56.720 for the very soul of our culture? How did that start? 4:56:57.520 --> 4:57:01.520 When I cut down Rick Green, the Mountain King? You 4:57:01.640 --> 4:57:03.680 killed him because he was the leader of a rival faction. 4:57:03.720 --> 4:57:06.400 Then not because he was a poser. They weren't a 4:57:06.480 --> 4:57:09.240 rival faction until I killed him, but sure he was 4:57:09.320 --> 4:57:13.200 a poser though all fascists opposers. Did you go on 4:57:13.200 --> 4:57:17.440 tour with Goblin Forest specifically to murder him? Yeah? Probably? 4:57:18.440 --> 4:57:21.160 What do you mean probably? That's a very specific question 4:57:21.200 --> 4:57:24.440 about a very specific intention. I mean, I guess I 4:57:24.440 --> 4:57:26.800 had been thinking about killing him for a while. It 4:57:26.880 --> 4:57:31.399 was premeditated, and it wasn't you know, No, I don't know, 4:57:31.560 --> 4:57:34.960 because I've never killed anyone. So it's like I've known 4:57:35.040 --> 4:57:37.560 Rick Green almost five years. He and I and maybe 4:57:37.600 --> 4:57:40.520 thirty other people. We started this whole thing, Goblin Metal 4:57:40.560 --> 4:57:43.160 of the Orcs, all of that. Rick Green has always 4:57:43.160 --> 4:57:45.759 been a fucking bastard. I figured I'd probably kill him 4:57:45.800 --> 4:57:48.040 one day for being kind of a Nazi or whatever. 4:57:48.520 --> 4:57:50.800 Then we go on tour together and I tell myself, Hey, 4:57:50.880 --> 4:57:53.120 if this goes badly, I can always just kill him 4:57:53.160 --> 4:57:56.480 on stage. You've got to understand Orcus culture wasn't even 4:57:56.560 --> 4:57:59.240 a year old at that point. We weren't split into 4:57:59.240 --> 4:58:01.360 the Free Orcs and the oar Seene yet. There were 4:58:01.400 --> 4:58:04.480 only maybe five villages total. We were just starting to 4:58:04.560 --> 4:58:07.000 explore what it meant to be ourselves, what kind of 4:58:07.000 --> 4:58:09.800 culture we could build. Then, while we were on tour, 4:58:10.120 --> 4:58:13.920 I hear he's got himself crowned the mountain king. And 4:58:13.960 --> 4:58:15.920 this isn't a game. I don't know how to get 4:58:15.960 --> 4:58:18.640 that through to you or your readers. This is our life. 4:58:18.880 --> 4:58:20.480 It's one thing to put on a silly hat and 4:58:20.480 --> 4:58:22.960 pretend to tell people what to do in some larp somewhere. 4:58:23.200 --> 4:58:27.359 But Rick Green had gotten himself corornated for real dictator 4:58:27.560 --> 4:58:30.759 over actual people. So I killed him. The Free York 4:58:30.840 --> 4:58:33.200 split off the oar seen closed ranks, and we've been 4:58:33.200 --> 4:58:37.280 at war ever since. Am I safe here? He didn't 4:58:37.320 --> 4:58:39.560 answer me at least he didn't stare me down again. 4:58:40.040 --> 4:58:43.080 He just looked off into the distance, maybe towards lonely mountain. 4:58:45.080 --> 4:58:47.280 I've been to LARPs before, where when you show up, 4:58:47.280 --> 4:58:49.400 they make you put on garb. That is to say, 4:58:49.440 --> 4:58:52.040 they make you wear period appropriate clothes, or whatever weird 4:58:52.080 --> 4:58:55.720 interpretation of period appropriate that particular group of Larbers had 4:58:55.720 --> 4:58:58.680 come up with. As I met the denizens of the village, 4:58:59.720 --> 4:59:02.239 they all came out to the parking lot to introduce themselves. 4:59:02.560 --> 4:59:04.880 I realized they didn't insist on anything like that because 4:59:05.280 --> 4:59:08.120 they weren't LARPing. Pretty much every one of them was 4:59:08.200 --> 4:59:11.000 dressed like either a Viking reenactor or fantasy game villain, 4:59:11.440 --> 4:59:14.880 but it wasn't an act. About thirty adults and eight 4:59:14.960 --> 4:59:17.560 kids lived there, running the age gamut from six months 4:59:17.640 --> 4:59:21.039 to seventy eight years. They told me their names and pronouns. 4:59:21.080 --> 4:59:23.160 About a third told me she a third he in 4:59:23.160 --> 4:59:25.920 the third day. Many of them were white or past 4:59:25.960 --> 4:59:29.360 as such, but a significant minority were black. Nourenda told 4:59:29.400 --> 4:59:32.200 me later their Orc villages with substantially higher proportions of 4:59:32.200 --> 4:59:34.520 people of color. That might be true, but I got 4:59:34.520 --> 4:59:36.800 the impression she said it to convince herself or me 4:59:37.200 --> 4:59:40.800 that the free Orcs aren't a specifically white phenomenon. No One, 4:59:41.080 --> 4:59:43.680 no one decent, likes looking around their community or scene 4:59:43.680 --> 4:59:48.440 and seeing only white faces smiling back. After everyone introduced themselves, 4:59:48.480 --> 4:59:51.120 immediately forgot all their names. There are only so many 4:59:51.160 --> 4:59:53.960 fantasy names like Lazarre and Demolin that you can hear 4:59:54.000 --> 4:59:57.640 before they all just sound the same. Nourenda and Fenrik 4:59:57.720 --> 4:59:59.440 flanked me as we walked through a gate in the 4:59:59.480 --> 5:00:02.960 wall into village. It's strange to say village in America. 5:00:03.040 --> 5:00:05.759 We don't really have villages here, but in some ways 5:00:06.080 --> 5:00:09.680 Graymorrow isn't the United States. And to be certain, it 5:00:09.800 --> 5:00:12.759 was a village, maybe ten or fifteen houses crowded together 5:00:12.840 --> 5:00:16.359 along either side of a single potholed street. Two architectural 5:00:16.400 --> 5:00:19.680 styles reigned, junkyard shacks built out of railroad cars in 5:00:19.720 --> 5:00:24.040 regular cars, and traditional American log cabins, many of them 5:00:24.040 --> 5:00:26.840 were adorned with solar panels. At the end of the street, 5:00:26.919 --> 5:00:30.039 near the black Palisade, the beginnings of a stone tower 5:00:30.120 --> 5:00:33.320 stood fifteen feet high. I wasn't sure if I was 5:00:33.320 --> 5:00:36.040 impressed or not. On one hand, the village couldn't have 5:00:36.040 --> 5:00:37.760 been around longer than three or four years, and they 5:00:37.800 --> 5:00:40.720 had already done so much. On the other hand, it 5:00:40.840 --> 5:00:43.880 was filthy. Everyone was filthy. I'm kind of obsessed with 5:00:43.919 --> 5:00:45.759 the post civilization movement, so I wish I could tell 5:00:45.759 --> 5:00:49.199 you everyone looked well fed and happy. They didn't people 5:00:49.240 --> 5:00:51.360 looked proud, and they didn't look miserable. But there was 5:00:51.360 --> 5:00:54.120 an intensity in everyone's eyes you simply could not mistake 5:00:54.200 --> 5:00:58.320 for happiness. A trash pile needed attending near the front gate, 5:00:58.360 --> 5:01:00.800 and some of the animal hides stretched tanning had begun 5:01:00.840 --> 5:01:03.680 to rot. Everything looked like it was about to fall apart, 5:01:03.720 --> 5:01:07.760 both physically and metaphorically. What now, I asked, when we 5:01:07.800 --> 5:01:10.440 reached the central square, a stone cobbled chunk of what 5:01:10.560 --> 5:01:13.400 had been once an intersection, now decorated with poorly tended 5:01:13.400 --> 5:01:17.400 gardens and rustic benches of dubious quality. You're here to 5:01:17.440 --> 5:01:20.440 interview golfen Ball or you're not, Fendrick asked, I am 5:01:20.840 --> 5:01:24.160 golf Ball doesn't live here. I waited for her to elaborate. 5:01:24.600 --> 5:01:26.480 Golfing Bull lives in the forest with the rest of 5:01:26.520 --> 5:01:28.840 his band. He's on his way. You'll meet him a 5:01:28.840 --> 5:01:31.120 bit outside of town. I'll take you to him when 5:01:31.160 --> 5:01:34.920 he gets there. Someone near the gates shouted, and both 5:01:34.919 --> 5:01:38.120 of my escorts flinched bodily and turned to look. It 5:01:38.200 --> 5:01:40.800 was just a kid chasing another kid with a wooden sword. 5:01:41.640 --> 5:01:45.040 Fenrick and Narindo were on edge. Something was about to happen. 5:01:47.400 --> 5:01:50.200 Tell me about your new band, Ulcerreth. What does the 5:01:50.280 --> 5:01:54.080 name mean? Alsrith is the dark speech word for the 5:01:54.080 --> 5:01:56.320 phase of the moon on the last night before the 5:01:56.360 --> 5:01:59.760 new moon, the last sliver of light. Ulsareth is a 5:01:59.759 --> 5:02:03.000 whole le day, a day of self reflection. Our band's 5:02:03.080 --> 5:02:07.160 music attempts to capture that spirit of self reflection. On Alcareth, 5:02:07.320 --> 5:02:09.920 we listen to our naysayer and think about ourselves and 5:02:09.960 --> 5:02:15.840 our community your naysayer. Free Orchish villages don't have leaders, 5:02:16.000 --> 5:02:19.520 We have naysayers. Two years ago we tried rotating leadership. 5:02:19.680 --> 5:02:23.400 It was ineffectual. We didn't need leaders. We stuck with 5:02:23.440 --> 5:02:25.759 it anyway, because we felt like we had to, because 5:02:25.759 --> 5:02:28.080 those were the rules we had come up with. Then 5:02:28.120 --> 5:02:31.240 one person said, basically, this is bullshit. We don't need 5:02:31.280 --> 5:02:33.520 someone to tell us what to do. We need someone 5:02:33.560 --> 5:02:35.800 to tell us what to stop doing. We need someone 5:02:35.840 --> 5:02:38.520 to tell us what we're doing wrong. Every new moon, 5:02:38.600 --> 5:02:41.880 every village picks a new naysayer. That person spends the 5:02:41.880 --> 5:02:45.399 month picking up heart group structures, observing what's happening, being critical. 5:02:45.800 --> 5:02:49.039 On Alsaret, we fast and listen to the naysayer. They 5:02:49.040 --> 5:02:52.840 don't offer solutions necessarily, but instead bring our problems to light. 5:02:53.840 --> 5:02:57.720 Does that work surprisingly well, except about a third of 5:02:57.759 --> 5:03:00.480 the naysayers end up leaving after their month. Some go 5:03:00.560 --> 5:03:02.640 to other villages, some good to live in the forest, 5:03:02.759 --> 5:03:06.800 like Narinda Alsyreth singer did, but most leave the woods. 5:03:06.960 --> 5:03:11.480 As we put it, most go back to civilization. That's 5:03:11.480 --> 5:03:13.600 why Noriinda's name sound of familiar when she didn't she 5:03:13.640 --> 5:03:16.400 introduced herself. To be honest, I saw your name list 5:03:16.480 --> 5:03:18.320 in the liner notes and didn't pay much attention to 5:03:18.320 --> 5:03:21.280 the rest. That's an argument for me to take my 5:03:21.360 --> 5:03:24.759 name off our next release. If there is one, why 5:03:24.800 --> 5:03:26.640 did you put it there in the first place, Why 5:03:26.640 --> 5:03:28.560 did you agree to this interview? And what do you 5:03:28.560 --> 5:03:33.440 mean if there is one? I told you we're at war. Yeah, 5:03:33.759 --> 5:03:37.560 we're losing that war. He took a deep breath, trying 5:03:37.560 --> 5:03:39.680 to keep himself calm. He didn't strike me as a 5:03:39.720 --> 5:03:41.960 man who was afraid to cry, but he was clearly 5:03:42.040 --> 5:03:45.720 trying to keep his composure. There's no way that Gray 5:03:45.800 --> 5:03:47.919 Morrow would have let you talk to me here if 5:03:47.919 --> 5:03:50.240 any of us thought that Gray Morrow had a future. 5:03:50.640 --> 5:03:52.039 There's no way I would have talked to you at 5:03:52.040 --> 5:03:53.640 all if I thought I was going to be alive 5:03:53.720 --> 5:03:57.640 to see another alterra. Why are you losing? Why are 5:03:57.640 --> 5:04:01.600 you going to die? It's not a question of military efficacy, 5:04:01.720 --> 5:04:03.760 or of bravery or strength or any of that ship. 5:04:04.040 --> 5:04:07.200 It's just a question of numbers or seen society. As 5:04:07.240 --> 5:04:10.440 a military society, every member fights as far as we 5:04:10.480 --> 5:04:14.440 can tell, they've got fiftundred warriors. We've got five hundred, 5:04:15.600 --> 5:04:18.920 so use guerrilla tactics. Golf and bull shook his head. 5:04:20.000 --> 5:04:23.160 Striking Rick Green down from behind was a cowardly action. 5:04:23.440 --> 5:04:26.000 I can justify it almost by the fact that Green 5:04:26.080 --> 5:04:29.160 had declared himself my monarch. But the or Seen warriors 5:04:29.160 --> 5:04:31.800 are my peers. They would not stalk me in the night. 5:04:32.240 --> 5:04:36.720 I will not stalk them. That sounds, I know how 5:04:36.759 --> 5:04:40.800 it sounds. So this interview I want to be remembered. 5:04:40.919 --> 5:04:43.520 I want the free Orcs of Cascadia to be remembered. 5:04:43.759 --> 5:04:45.559 I put my name on the liner notes so that 5:04:45.600 --> 5:04:49.040 someone like you, an anti fascist music blogger, would talk 5:04:49.080 --> 5:04:51.600 to me. I leveraged my own infamy to draw attention 5:04:51.640 --> 5:04:55.600 to what we're doing, what we've done. I fucking hate 5:04:55.600 --> 5:05:00.800 the tragic utopian trope. What like seriously like fuck you? Okay, 5:05:00.840 --> 5:05:02.280 I know I'm here as a journalist, but I'm not 5:05:02.320 --> 5:05:05.320 gonna write your fucking obituary. I don't think I've ever 5:05:05.360 --> 5:05:08.840 turned on an interview subject like that before. I get it. 5:05:08.919 --> 5:05:11.480 Hopeless causes are beautiful, but as I understand it, the 5:05:11.520 --> 5:05:13.960 whole goddamn point of holding onto your honor more firmly 5:05:14.280 --> 5:05:16.080 than your life is because the world is a better 5:05:16.120 --> 5:05:20.120 place for everyone if more people did that, right, Okay, 5:05:20.600 --> 5:05:22.399 the world isn't a goddamn better place if you let 5:05:22.400 --> 5:05:24.480 your subculture. And I'm sorry, I know it's very serious 5:05:24.480 --> 5:05:26.160 and I'm not trying to downplay it, but that's what 5:05:26.200 --> 5:05:29.840 this is, A musical subculture be taken over by fucking Nazis. 5:05:30.440 --> 5:05:32.120 And I respect that you're going to fight them for it. 5:05:32.280 --> 5:05:34.919 That's cool. But if you consider buying some guns, maybe 5:05:34.919 --> 5:05:37.280 a few drones. They'll come in here with spears, right, 5:05:37.320 --> 5:05:40.800 and you'll fight them off with other spears. It's man, 5:05:40.840 --> 5:05:43.000 there are fucking Nazis everywhere. If you don't give a 5:05:43.000 --> 5:05:45.560 shit about going to jail or dying, then fucking shoot 5:05:45.560 --> 5:05:48.560 the Nazis. We're trying to kill you. You You don't understand, 5:05:49.200 --> 5:05:53.880 You're fucking right, I don't, if I'm being honest. Most 5:05:53.880 --> 5:05:55.600 of the time I was waiting, I spent flirting with 5:05:55.680 --> 5:05:58.600 Norenda and avoiding talking to Fenrich Horenda asked me to 5:05:58.680 --> 5:06:01.280 keep our conversation off the wreck heard. We didn't talk 5:06:01.320 --> 5:06:04.200 about Gray Morrow or the orc thing much anyway. Everything 5:06:04.200 --> 5:06:06.080 I learned about the village and its culture, I learned 5:06:06.080 --> 5:06:09.719 by observation. Only an elderly man came by and offered 5:06:09.759 --> 5:06:13.320 us cold tea and wooden mugs steeped BlackBerry leaves sweetened 5:06:13.360 --> 5:06:16.000 with juice from the berries. He said, no caffeine, no 5:06:16.080 --> 5:06:20.120 other particularly strong medicinal effects. The three of us took 5:06:20.160 --> 5:06:22.239 cups from his bladder, and he continued down the street 5:06:22.280 --> 5:06:26.040 passing out drinks. No one else approached us. I watched 5:06:26.040 --> 5:06:28.200 people go about their lives, though the tension in the 5:06:28.200 --> 5:06:31.000 air was thick. I saw a few people look at 5:06:31.040 --> 5:06:33.719 cell phones and spent a not inconsiderable amount of time 5:06:34.040 --> 5:06:36.400 trying to decide if that was hypocritical and or bad 5:06:36.440 --> 5:06:39.480 ops SEC. Eventually I gave up because frankly, it wasn't 5:06:39.520 --> 5:06:41.480 my business, and one of the most interesting things about 5:06:41.480 --> 5:06:44.000 all the post civilization groups is all the bits and 5:06:44.000 --> 5:06:47.919 pieces they choose to carry over from mainstream culture. Finally, 5:06:48.200 --> 5:06:52.800 after an hour, Fenric stood up come with me. I 5:06:52.880 --> 5:06:54.640 followed her to the other side of town and through 5:06:54.640 --> 5:06:57.320 a smaller gait. On the other side, a box truck 5:06:57.360 --> 5:06:59.480 that had seen better days sat on a road that 5:06:59.520 --> 5:07:02.280 had to We skirted around the truck and up into 5:07:02.320 --> 5:07:06.480 the black forest. The scorched hills looked more like meadows 5:07:06.480 --> 5:07:09.480 than forests, with green grass and undergrowth broken only by 5:07:09.520 --> 5:07:12.840 black spikes of burned trees. We followed the path this 5:07:12.840 --> 5:07:15.719 way and that, and soon I was lost. Soon after 5:07:16.160 --> 5:07:19.440 fog set in, I was further through the looking glass 5:07:19.440 --> 5:07:22.320 than I had realized. I imagined us lost a mile 5:07:22.400 --> 5:07:24.080 from a town full of people who gave a double 5:07:24.120 --> 5:07:26.079 meaning to the word stranger, and probably at least an 5:07:26.080 --> 5:07:29.440 hour's drive from civilization. My guard hadn't shown me much 5:07:29.440 --> 5:07:30.760 in the way of kindness, and I was on my 5:07:30.800 --> 5:07:32.640 way to meet someone I knew to be a murderer. 5:07:33.360 --> 5:07:34.960 It's the kind of shift I live for. If I'm 5:07:34.960 --> 5:07:37.640 being honest, I love my stupid, fucking weird job in 5:07:37.680 --> 5:07:40.480 the stupid fucking weird world we live in. Thank you, 5:07:40.640 --> 5:07:42.720 my readers, for making that possible for me. Be sure 5:07:42.759 --> 5:07:44.360 to check out my Patreon page if this is the 5:07:44.360 --> 5:07:46.640 first thing you've read by me. Lots of members only 5:07:46.680 --> 5:07:48.840 content over there, including a few snippets of orc song 5:07:48.880 --> 5:07:52.480 from Narinda. The only thing I saw in the distance 5:07:52.520 --> 5:07:55.000 was a single black spire, thicker than the dead snags 5:07:55.000 --> 5:07:57.640 around me. As we approached it came into focus as 5:07:57.640 --> 5:08:00.600 a boulder jutting up into the sky like an angry finger. 5:08:01.120 --> 5:08:02.840 Sitting at the base of it was a short man 5:08:02.919 --> 5:08:06.559 with a sword across his lap, golfing bull. I'll leave 5:08:06.600 --> 5:08:09.320 you to to it, Fenrick said. She left me alone 5:08:09.360 --> 5:08:12.160 with an armed murderer. I sat down across from him, 5:08:12.240 --> 5:08:14.800 took out the notebook and recorder, and asked him questions. 5:08:16.800 --> 5:08:21.320 All right, convince me we can't fight them dishonorably, because 5:08:21.320 --> 5:08:24.440 you can't protect an idea by defiling that idea. We 5:08:24.480 --> 5:08:26.360 don't want them to destroy our way of life, but 5:08:26.360 --> 5:08:28.879 we don't want to destroy our way of life ourselves either. 5:08:30.280 --> 5:08:32.520 The basic problem with your scene is that they're interpreting 5:08:32.520 --> 5:08:36.240 your code of honor to mean might makes right. Yeah. Yes. 5:08:37.360 --> 5:08:39.640 By facing them an open battle and nobly dying or 5:08:39.640 --> 5:08:42.760 whatever your goddamn planet is, you're just letting them make 5:08:43.040 --> 5:08:46.280 m right. You're letting their superior numbers dictate what your 5:08:46.280 --> 5:08:49.320 cultures to look like. It's like majority voting, but even 5:08:49.400 --> 5:08:52.919 dumber because more people die. I expected him to double 5:08:52.919 --> 5:08:55.840 down on his position. Most men would. What do you 5:08:55.880 --> 5:09:00.440 suggest instead, Fuck? I don't know. Don't be here when attack, 5:09:00.600 --> 5:09:03.079 go somewhere else. Stay on the move, build your strength. 5:09:03.400 --> 5:09:05.759 Oh ship, That's what Rick Green was doing, wasn't it. 5:09:07.919 --> 5:09:12.120 Huh Goblin Forest singing in English, a stupid name like 5:09:12.240 --> 5:09:14.720 Rick Green. All that ship was designed to make Goblin 5:09:14.720 --> 5:09:17.400 metal more palatable to the masses, to get fans, to 5:09:17.480 --> 5:09:24.200 get recruits for his stupid, fucking fashy goals. Yep, do that. 5:09:24.320 --> 5:09:26.480 I mean, don't become fascists or change your name or 5:09:26.520 --> 5:09:28.480 make your music worse. Everyone knows Goblin Forest and have 5:09:28.560 --> 5:09:31.920 shipped on Crimpot School. Just don't be obscure for the 5:09:31.919 --> 5:09:34.640 sake of being obscure. Fucking advertise you have a decent 5:09:34.640 --> 5:09:37.680 thing going here. People are abandoning mainstream society left and right, 5:09:38.000 --> 5:09:40.880 no political pun intended. Make it easier for them to 5:09:40.919 --> 5:09:42.640 get here. Make it so that when you fight the 5:09:42.640 --> 5:09:46.400 fashion your epics swords and spears Viking deathmatch, you win 5:09:47.120 --> 5:09:48.960 better Yet, make it so they don't even want to 5:09:49.000 --> 5:09:51.480 funk with you because they know they'll lose. I don't 5:09:51.520 --> 5:09:55.320 know whether that would work, Yeah, but dying doesn't work either. 5:09:56.400 --> 5:09:58.800 The Eark way of life isn't meant to be some revolution. 5:09:59.000 --> 5:10:01.280 It's not meant to supply it the mainstream. It will 5:10:01.280 --> 5:10:04.239 never appeal to the mainstream, not without losing its soul. 5:10:04.600 --> 5:10:08.640 Would you live like this? Would you want to? You're right, 5:10:09.000 --> 5:10:11.759 I'm obsessed with you weird subcultures, but I wouldn't want 5:10:11.800 --> 5:10:14.320 to live like you. We both stared at each other 5:10:14.320 --> 5:10:19.200 in silence. It wasn't an uncomfortable silence. We're both just thinking, okay, 5:10:19.400 --> 5:10:21.520 scrap that. You're never going to get big numbers. You 5:10:21.520 --> 5:10:23.720 don't need big numbers. You don't want big numbers. You 5:10:23.759 --> 5:10:29.360 don't need recruits, you need allies. What would that look like? God, 5:10:29.400 --> 5:10:32.199 damn dude, all orchishmn note, actually listen to women's ideas. 5:10:32.200 --> 5:10:34.520 I'm used to guys just talking over me or shutting 5:10:34.520 --> 5:10:38.160 down completely. If I get mad free orci ish men, 5:10:38.240 --> 5:10:42.440 I would hope know how to listen. Guns break the 5:10:42.440 --> 5:10:45.600 spell and the spill you're casting here. It's powerful, it's good. 5:10:45.759 --> 5:10:48.640 So no guns. Other people have guns, though, Let those 5:10:48.680 --> 5:10:51.640 people stand guard or make their arm presence. Note outside 5:10:51.759 --> 5:10:55.280 or seen camps, other people have access to, say, dock scene, 5:10:55.320 --> 5:10:56.960 how many recruits are the or scene going to get? 5:10:57.000 --> 5:10:58.920 If every time some want to be forced Nazi dude 5:10:59.000 --> 5:11:01.680 joins someone to as his mother what they're about for 5:11:01.759 --> 5:11:03.920 access to the media. How many recruits are going to 5:11:04.000 --> 5:11:06.480 join if everyone knows the or sene or poser is 5:11:06.480 --> 5:11:09.040 putting out substandard water and down goblin metal just to 5:11:09.040 --> 5:11:11.400 try and lure an impressionable military aged men to fight 5:11:11.440 --> 5:11:15.760 their holy war. You'll write those stories. I'm not gonna 5:11:15.759 --> 5:11:18.440 write you any propaganda, but sure I'll tell the truth. 5:11:19.160 --> 5:11:23.000 How do we get allies? But at another single, maybe 5:11:23.000 --> 5:11:25.120 a full length? The gray Fog of a Ruined Forest 5:11:25.160 --> 5:11:28.120 was the best ship of hurtin years. You're redefining folk music, 5:11:28.120 --> 5:11:30.720 just like you redefined metal without ship like that, and 5:11:30.720 --> 5:11:33.640 I'll cover it. Talk to more press, maybe someone other 5:11:33.680 --> 5:11:35.680 than you. Not everyone's going to be sympathetic to what 5:11:35.720 --> 5:11:38.160 you did, even if that fucking guy was a fucking 5:11:38.160 --> 5:11:42.040 tree Nazi hunting horn cut through the fog and through 5:11:42.040 --> 5:11:45.320 our conversation, and my subject's face fell into despair for 5:11:45.360 --> 5:11:50.720 a half second before determination took over. What's that? Interviews 5:11:50.800 --> 5:11:53.480 over and I thought there would be more time another day. 5:11:53.520 --> 5:11:55.560 At least we have to get you out of here. 5:11:58.240 --> 5:12:01.079 Turns out Fenrik had taken us on a purposefully circatuitous 5:12:01.160 --> 5:12:03.440 route into the woods. It wasn't a quarter of a 5:12:03.480 --> 5:12:06.079 mile straight downhill before golf and Bull and I reached 5:12:06.080 --> 5:12:09.480 the box truck at the back entrance to Graymorrow, Norinda 5:12:09.520 --> 5:12:11.920 and Fenric stood there talking with a kid, maybe fifteen, 5:12:11.960 --> 5:12:14.520 who was out of breath. She was dressed in scraps 5:12:14.560 --> 5:12:16.960 of fur and leather and cloth, like you might imagine 5:12:16.960 --> 5:12:19.480 a medieval beggar. It wasn't until I noticed all the 5:12:19.480 --> 5:12:21.879 twigs and sticks and moss tangled up in the fabrics 5:12:21.919 --> 5:12:25.800 I recognized it as camouflage. I saw about thirty the scout, 5:12:25.880 --> 5:12:30.080 for that's what she was said about. Fenrick asked, exactly 5:12:30.120 --> 5:12:32.800 thirty ten with pikes, ten with tower, shields and swords, 5:12:32.840 --> 5:12:35.960 five archers, two scouts to command, one non combatant. I'd 5:12:35.960 --> 5:12:39.079 guess a surgeon, but I couldn't promise how far away 5:12:39.080 --> 5:12:42.720 I asked. Fenrick glared at me for interrupting. Five miles 5:12:42.759 --> 5:12:45.760 Norenda said probably three and a half by now downhill. 5:12:46.160 --> 5:12:47.800 We have time to get you out with the children 5:12:47.840 --> 5:12:51.720 and the elders. The scout had just run five miles 5:12:51.840 --> 5:12:54.320 uphill because she was too stubborn to use a walkie 5:12:54.320 --> 5:12:57.919 talkie or a cell phone. We should evacuate everyone. Golfen 5:12:57.960 --> 5:13:01.840 Bull said what Fenrick asked. We've got walls and almost 5:13:01.880 --> 5:13:04.919 even numbers. Fuck them, this is our home. I wanted 5:13:04.919 --> 5:13:06.880 to shout at her. I wanted to shake her, to 5:13:06.919 --> 5:13:09.200 tell her this wasn't a fucking game, that it wasn't 5:13:09.240 --> 5:13:12.080 the twelfth century, and that killing people or dying over 5:13:12.120 --> 5:13:15.440 some squatted chunk of nowhere was somewhere between stupid and reprehensible. 5:13:16.000 --> 5:13:19.320 It didn't, though I'm a good journalist, This isn't the 5:13:19.320 --> 5:13:21.400 place for us to debate this, Nerenda said, and all 5:13:21.440 --> 5:13:23.040 four of them walked through the gate and left me 5:13:23.080 --> 5:13:26.880 standing by the truck. That was why the gardens were untended, 5:13:26.880 --> 5:13:28.759 and with the trash was piled up and the hides 5:13:28.800 --> 5:13:32.080 were left to rot. They were expecting this. They'd lost 5:13:32.160 --> 5:13:33.960 their will to pretend like their lives were going to 5:13:33.960 --> 5:13:38.120 continue to progress forward. I'm not the first to suggest 5:13:38.120 --> 5:13:41.520 that nihilism is the dominant effect of society today, with 5:13:41.600 --> 5:13:44.680 climate change destroying communities and bioregions all over the map, 5:13:45.120 --> 5:13:47.919 with the economic crisis deepening and the wealth gap widening, 5:13:48.280 --> 5:13:50.080 I think all of us are guilty of forgetting to 5:13:50.160 --> 5:13:52.720 tend our gardens. All of us have a hard time 5:13:52.720 --> 5:13:54.720 figuring out why it matters whether or not we deal 5:13:54.720 --> 5:13:58.160 with our trash. All of us have proverbial or literal 5:13:58.280 --> 5:14:01.560 Nazis marching on us. The Nazis the free orcs A 5:14:01.600 --> 5:14:05.800 Cascady are dealing with are the literal variety. Some cosplain 5:14:05.880 --> 5:14:08.640 fascist was about to stick a sword between Norinda's ribs 5:14:09.240 --> 5:14:12.280 by ale rose in my throat. I don't know. I 5:14:12.320 --> 5:14:14.400 believe in love at first sight or any of that ship, 5:14:15.040 --> 5:14:18.760 but I just couldn't handle the idea. I fucking hate honor. 5:14:19.200 --> 5:14:22.239 I will never be an orc. I got lost running 5:14:22.240 --> 5:14:25.120 through solutions to the problem of hypothetical arrows and swords 5:14:25.120 --> 5:14:28.520 that were going to interfere with Nourinda's continued existence. Most 5:14:28.520 --> 5:14:31.160 of those solutions involved AsSalt rifles, which I didn't have 5:14:31.200 --> 5:14:34.880 access to. Cars, though were available. What's thirty warriors of 5:14:34.960 --> 5:14:37.680 medieval armor versus one station wagon driven by an angry 5:14:37.720 --> 5:14:39.840 woman with a lead foot. I put the odds in 5:14:39.880 --> 5:14:43.640 my favor. I wasn't going to do it, though. Instead 5:14:43.759 --> 5:14:46.800 I waited to evacuate. I don't think that speaks well 5:14:46.800 --> 5:14:50.600 of me. Individually and in groups, people came out through 5:14:50.600 --> 5:14:52.840 the gate and loaded bags and baskets onto the back 5:14:52.880 --> 5:14:55.960 of the truck. Noarinda returned with a simple backpack sewn 5:14:56.040 --> 5:14:59.280 from raw hide. Most of her belongings were probably wherever 5:14:59.360 --> 5:15:01.440 she engulf Am Bull and the rest of Alstreth lived. 5:15:01.919 --> 5:15:05.880 She handed me my phone. I didn't have service. I 5:15:05.919 --> 5:15:08.920 wondered whether or not she engulfing Bullward dating It wasn't 5:15:09.080 --> 5:15:11.520 relevant to the present moment exactly, but my mind always 5:15:11.560 --> 5:15:13.360 is a way of thinking about bullshit to avoid thinking 5:15:13.400 --> 5:15:17.720 about impending doom. Another important effect of our generation distract 5:15:17.800 --> 5:15:21.040 ourselves with disaster with petty things like love and jealousy. 5:15:22.240 --> 5:15:23.640 I don't know what you said to Golf and Bullner 5:15:23.680 --> 5:15:26.120 and said, but whatever it was worked. He just convinced 5:15:26.120 --> 5:15:30.600 everyone to evacuate everyone, I asked, shocked, everyone except him 5:15:30.680 --> 5:15:34.480 and Fenrik and Gorn. Which one's Gorn, the man who 5:15:34.520 --> 5:15:37.240 brought us tea? Do you remember him? He's old as ship, though, 5:15:37.280 --> 5:15:41.080 I said, because I have no fucking manners or common sense. Yeah, 5:15:41.160 --> 5:15:43.480 he's old as ship. He's a linguist by training. His 5:15:43.560 --> 5:15:46.000 main hobby is writing morbid poetry and dark speech, and 5:15:46.480 --> 5:15:48.080 when he can't figure out how to say something, he 5:15:48.160 --> 5:15:50.560 just makes up new words. He developed about a third 5:15:50.600 --> 5:15:53.040 of the language. Did all that ship before orc culture 5:15:53.120 --> 5:15:56.079 was even around he's also a widower three times over. 5:15:56.480 --> 5:15:58.720 He doesn't give a shit about dying. His last chat 5:15:58.759 --> 5:16:02.680 book was called Soon I will return to the earth. Oh, 5:16:03.680 --> 5:16:05.960 Gorn is going to die today. Golf and Bull and 5:16:06.040 --> 5:16:08.040 Fenric they're going to hold the wall as long as 5:16:08.120 --> 5:16:10.640 they can and then fall back to the woods. And you, 5:16:10.840 --> 5:16:13.880 I asked, I'm driving us out of here to another village. 5:16:14.040 --> 5:16:17.600 Then I'll take you home after that. I don't know, girl, 5:16:18.040 --> 5:16:19.560 I don't know. If I signed up for this, I 5:16:19.640 --> 5:16:21.760 might leave the woods go back to being a vet tech. 5:16:22.640 --> 5:16:25.079 I just nodded. I was too biased to offer objective 5:16:25.120 --> 5:16:28.079 life advice. Oh, and Golf and Bull said to give 5:16:28.120 --> 5:16:30.440 you this, he said, it's in case he dies. He says, 5:16:30.520 --> 5:16:32.760 you're right. You shouldn't have to write his obituary. So 5:16:32.880 --> 5:16:35.879 we wrote his own. She handed me a piece of paper. 5:16:36.720 --> 5:16:38.480 I piled into the back of the box truck with 5:16:38.560 --> 5:16:41.840 forty other people, many of them in tears, many of 5:16:41.880 --> 5:16:45.720 them in shock, and we drove away from Graymorrow. None 5:16:45.759 --> 5:16:49.040 of the three free Orc survived the battle. Gorn died 5:16:49.160 --> 5:16:52.080 and paled on a spear while holding the gate. Fedric 5:16:52.160 --> 5:16:54.000 was killed by an arrow that struck her in the back. 5:16:54.080 --> 5:16:56.840 Of the neck as she and golfing Bull ran golf 5:16:56.880 --> 5:16:59.800 and Bull Fenric's lover turned and stood his ground over 5:16:59.840 --> 5:17:02.960 her body. I didn't know any of that yet. I 5:17:03.000 --> 5:17:06.480 found out when Norinda found out two days later. Maybe 5:17:06.520 --> 5:17:08.400 all three of them would have survived if I hadn't 5:17:08.440 --> 5:17:11.480 interfered and they'd all fought with equal numbers, Maybe more 5:17:11.520 --> 5:17:14.079 of them would have died. Maybe I can forgive myself. 5:17:14.560 --> 5:17:18.000 Maybe there's nothing to forgive. In the back of the truck, 5:17:18.360 --> 5:17:20.000 by the light coming in through a crack in the 5:17:20.080 --> 5:17:24.480 steel wall, I read golf and Bull's note all my life. 5:17:24.520 --> 5:17:26.880 I didn't give a shit about anything. I liked weed 5:17:27.000 --> 5:17:29.480 and metal in whatever counterculture trend was big in a 5:17:29.560 --> 5:17:31.920 given year, but my heart wasn't in it. I just 5:17:32.040 --> 5:17:35.840 went through the motions until I became an orc, saying 5:17:35.880 --> 5:17:37.759 I'm an orc and meaning it. Isn't like a trans 5:17:37.880 --> 5:17:40.240 man saying he's a man and meaning it. Gender is 5:17:40.240 --> 5:17:43.280 a social construct that goes back as far as I understand, 5:17:43.440 --> 5:17:46.280 to the beginning of humanity. There has always been gender, 5:17:46.360 --> 5:17:48.480 and there have always been people who transgress the roles 5:17:48.480 --> 5:17:51.360 assigned to them at birth. An orc is a social 5:17:51.520 --> 5:17:54.160 construct that we just fucking made up. I mean, I 5:17:54.240 --> 5:17:56.240 guess the Orc is an archetype too, but it's a 5:17:56.320 --> 5:18:00.000 fantasy archetype. We know what to make believe. Make believe. 5:18:00.000 --> 5:18:02.960 Eve is what gave my life meaning. I promise you 5:18:03.080 --> 5:18:05.120 that for me. The day we decided we were works 5:18:05.200 --> 5:18:07.600 was the first day that the sun shone benevolence upon 5:18:07.680 --> 5:18:10.320 the world. It was the first day that color radiated 5:18:10.360 --> 5:18:12.720 from everything I saw. It was the first day that 5:18:12.840 --> 5:18:15.239 the rain on my roof tapped out codes of meaning. 5:18:15.640 --> 5:18:18.400 It was the first day of my life, my real life, 5:18:19.160 --> 5:18:21.680 my first Also, I fell in love with the world. 5:18:22.440 --> 5:18:25.760 Everyone finds meaning in different ways. I found meaning by 5:18:25.800 --> 5:18:28.160 believing in some ship we made up and letting that 5:18:28.320 --> 5:18:32.960 be real. I was born Jason Sanchez. I died gulfing bull. 5:18:33.560 --> 5:18:38.120 I'm not sorry. That was great that I mean, not 5:18:38.240 --> 5:18:43.640 my narration, the story. The story, not my narration. H 5:18:44.919 --> 5:18:47.160 the second way finished. We all just got that little 5:18:47.200 --> 5:18:51.880 smirk on our face, like that was delightful. Yeah, Margret, 5:18:51.919 --> 5:18:56.480 you're the best. Yeah, I mean, if I were going 5:18:56.560 --> 5:19:00.280 to be an Orc, there would be rifles but its 5:19:00.320 --> 5:19:06.040 own problems. Yeah, this is absolutely this is like a 5:19:06.160 --> 5:19:07.960 really good example of what I mean that when I 5:19:08.040 --> 5:19:11.400 write utopian fiction or like fiction about other societies. I'm 5:19:11.480 --> 5:19:13.960 not saying, hey, everyone go do this, or like this 5:19:14.160 --> 5:19:16.760 is what people should do. No, I mean I liked that. 5:19:16.919 --> 5:19:19.080 I like I like that I've had that experience in 5:19:19.280 --> 5:19:22.160 other cultures, you know, places like slab City and different 5:19:22.280 --> 5:19:24.320 kind of encampments and whatnot that I've spent a lot 5:19:24.360 --> 5:19:26.440 of time and as a journalist where it's like I'm 5:19:26.480 --> 5:19:29.800 fascinated by and I respect aspects of this, but like, 5:19:30.520 --> 5:19:33.040 I also think some of these things are that you're 5:19:33.080 --> 5:19:35.680 doing or dumb or I don't understand why you do it, 5:19:35.800 --> 5:19:38.680 or this isn't like you know, but you don't your 5:19:38.720 --> 5:19:43.160 notes don't matter. You know, that's not your job, although 5:19:45.520 --> 5:19:48.720 actually having an impact in that way is is kind 5:19:48.759 --> 5:19:52.480 of Yeah, I don't know. Somebody go somebody go make 5:19:52.480 --> 5:19:56.040 an work village. Yeah, yeah, I'll go out there, I'll 5:19:56.080 --> 5:19:59.560 report on it. We'll go. It'll be fine. Don't take 5:19:59.560 --> 5:20:01.360 the banda all sort of though I already stole that. 5:20:03.680 --> 5:20:08.960 There's a number of dope band names in here. All right, 5:20:09.040 --> 5:20:11.200 people should make orc folk. I'd be really excited to 5:20:11.280 --> 5:20:20.320 hear make orc folk abandon civilization to live as fantasy. Creatures, um, 5:20:21.800 --> 5:20:26.840 fight fascists, all that good stuff. Yeah, Margaret, is there 5:20:26.919 --> 5:20:30.880 anything you'd like to plug? Well? I do have a 5:20:30.919 --> 5:20:33.440 new book out, or a reprint of an older book 5:20:33.520 --> 5:20:36.240 called A Country Ghost that is a more directly utopian book. 5:20:36.880 --> 5:20:39.520 It's out from a K Press, came out last month, 5:20:39.919 --> 5:20:44.280 and um, I think that's it. That's the main thing. Oh, 5:20:44.320 --> 5:20:46.200 you can support me on Patreon, although it's no longer 5:20:46.240 --> 5:20:48.960 supporting me on Patreon. It's supporting a publishing thing that 5:20:49.080 --> 5:20:51.560 I'm starting back up with people called Strangers and a 5:20:51.640 --> 5:20:55.600 Tangled Wilderness. And it will publish fiction and memoir and 5:20:55.680 --> 5:20:57.960 like the kind of like more culture side of radical 5:20:58.040 --> 5:21:01.640 politics and less the like theory and stuff. What's the 5:21:01.680 --> 5:21:06.079 patreon Patreon dot com slash Strangers in the Tangled Wilderness 5:21:06.120 --> 5:21:08.760 because why would I pick short names for things? Don't 5:21:08.800 --> 5:21:13.000 do that? Yeah, and we have we have a live 5:21:13.080 --> 5:21:17.000 show coming up right, Robert, uh that doesn't sound like us. 5:21:17.200 --> 5:21:20.320 It's a virtual live show of for Behind the Bastards 5:21:20.400 --> 5:21:26.960 put our Friend prop that's on Thursday February. Allegedly moment 5:21:27.000 --> 5:21:30.760 House dot com slash Behind the Bastards. I can't confirm 5:21:30.880 --> 5:21:35.640 or deny that. Okay, you're getting a lawyer on here 5:21:35.680 --> 5:21:40.000 before you can. Sure, Yeah, let's get Moira on the 5:21:40.080 --> 5:21:42.919 horn and where come on the horn and tell us 5:21:42.960 --> 5:21:47.360 if we're actually doing this thing? That? Yeah? Are we also? 5:21:47.480 --> 5:21:51.560 Are we alive? That's another question? How I texture that 5:21:51.680 --> 5:21:54.960 most days? Um? All right, well, thank you Margaret, and 5:21:55.080 --> 5:21:57.520 thank you all for tuning in in the first year. 5:21:58.000 --> 5:22:07.240 Of the rest of the next year. Ya hey, we'll 5:22:07.280 --> 5:22:10.320 be back Monday with more episodes every week from now 5:22:10.440 --> 5:22:13.680 until the heat death of the Universe. It Could Happen 5:22:13.720 --> 5:22:16.000 Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 5:22:16.080 --> 5:22:18.840 podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone 5:22:18.880 --> 5:22:20.720 media dot com, or check us out on the I 5:22:20.840 --> 5:22:24.080 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 5:22:24.680 --> 5:22:26.759 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 5:22:26.880 --> 5:22:30.320 monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 5:22:30.360 --> 5:22:30.840 for listening.