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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen

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Speaker 1: here a podcast about things falling apart, and occasionally also

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Speaker 1: about what you can do about it. And today we're

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Speaker 1: doing We're we're going we're we're going completely full into

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Speaker 1: it what you can do about an episode and specifically

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about unions, union organizing, the basics

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Speaker 1: of what they are and also some of the history

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Speaker 1: of it and to to talk with us about this.

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Speaker 1: I I have brought. I have brought my good friend

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Speaker 1: John Horonomus, who is a nurse steward with National Nurses

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Speaker 1: United in Chicago. Hi, John, how are you? How are

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Speaker 1: you doing? I'm doing good. Yeah. Esterday was my first

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Speaker 1: full day back at work after being out on light

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Speaker 1: duty from having COVID UH for this last year. And

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Speaker 1: so I got home yesterday and was pretty tired because

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Speaker 1: I haven't walked that much in a day. It's fine,

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Speaker 1: but I mean it was a good day. I got

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Speaker 1: lots of lugs from my coworkers. I didn't I didn't

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Speaker 1: forget anyone's name, which I was terrified of, um, and

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Speaker 1: didn't funk anything up. Um. And then when I got

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Speaker 1: when I got home, I hopped on after I got

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Speaker 1: my kids from school, I hopped on a union organizing

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Speaker 1: call with twenty nurses from a hospital in the South.

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Speaker 1: We're very excited about so um I was. It was.

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Speaker 1: It was a big day that that rules. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess it's awesome. Do a do a very very

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Speaker 1: brief long COVID check in because this is everything that

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Speaker 1: I think people are talking about that is also like

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Speaker 1: a huge labor issue, which is that yeah, like long

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Speaker 1: COVID fucking sucks and like I know, like I know,

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Speaker 1: like like like one of my cousins had it, and

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Speaker 1: you know, they they've been in bad shape for a

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Speaker 1: long time, like they still can't taste properly and like

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Speaker 1: they I think you got from from what I remember,

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Speaker 1: like pretty bad like in terms of yeah, sorry, if

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Speaker 1: you don't have you don't want to, but oh I

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Speaker 1: don't care. I mean I think people should like know

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Speaker 1: that this is still going on, Like the pandemic is

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Speaker 1: still happening. Um, people are still getting sick and some

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Speaker 1: are still dying, which really sucks, and the long COVID

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Speaker 1: thing is real. Um they I didn't get sick in

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Speaker 1: the sense of showing up having to be in like

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Speaker 1: a hospital or I see you or anything like that mine,

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Speaker 1: but I got sick, and um, the recovery, like the

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Speaker 1: the year or the month or so after I got

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Speaker 1: sick was when things actually got bad because something happened

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Speaker 1: with my um my nerves and my neuro I had

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Speaker 1: a neuromuscular variant of like the long COVID symptoms, and

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Speaker 1: that led me to having all its kinds of issues

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Speaker 1: with basically just being exhausted from basic things. Anything more

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Speaker 1: than just getting up and walking around. I would have

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Speaker 1: to like lay in bed afterwards. And it would add

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Speaker 1: multiple episodes of the past year where I would cross

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Speaker 1: some invisible line in terms of like endurance and then

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Speaker 1: be stuck in bed for a week. And so it's

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Speaker 1: been a long thing. But I've been slowly getting better,

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Speaker 1: and people who fall into that neuromuscular thing do slowly

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Speaker 1: get better. I think that's the upshot people with heart problems,

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Speaker 1: those tend to be permanent and aren't getting better, which sucks. Um,

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean it's just like I think that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people. It's a very weird, surreal thing

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Speaker 1: to watch what is effectively like a like a a

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Speaker 1: global public health catastrophe get politicized the way it has

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Speaker 1: and treated the way it has been by everybody involved.

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Speaker 1: So um, anyway, I just I'm doing better with that,

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Speaker 1: and it's shaped me over the last year, and it's

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Speaker 1: shaped union organizing, and um, I'm glad that I would

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Speaker 1: say this to people who are thinking about unions. I'm

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Speaker 1: glad that I had the union kind of backing me up, um,

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Speaker 1: even when I had to pull them a little bit

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Speaker 1: in the direct the right direction. Uh. It's much better

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Speaker 1: to have that kind of collective power behind you when

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Speaker 1: you're dealing with those kind of problems. So that's actually

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Speaker 1: a good way into looking at just sort of in

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Speaker 1: general what a union is, because I think there's there's

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Speaker 1: there's two things here. There is what a union is

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Speaker 1: legally and what a union actually is in terms of

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Speaker 1: just the people in it and the sort of power

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Speaker 1: behind it. And so I was wondering if you could,

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Speaker 1: well one, I mean, is on an incredibly basic level,

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Speaker 1: explain what a union is like legally, like what is

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Speaker 1: legally defined as doing, because I feel like that's also

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Speaker 1: something that is not as well understood as it should be. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure. So in the United States, there's a series

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Speaker 1: of laws that kind of regulates, UM, you know, the

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Speaker 1: kind of collective UM bargaining UM and collective organization of

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Speaker 1: workers at work UM. An important thing to understand is that, UM,

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Speaker 1: those laws are mostly designed to constrain workers power to

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Speaker 1: affect their their you know, working conditions UM. And so

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Speaker 1: when you look at what a union legally is UM,

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Speaker 1: unions are for the most part, UM, they're legal organizations

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Speaker 1: that kind of like operate on a dues basis. So

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Speaker 1: if you're in a union, you're paying dues out of

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Speaker 1: your paycheck. UM. If you work at a unionized workplace,

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Speaker 1: those dudes will get subtracted out regardless of your membership

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Speaker 1: or activity within the union. UM. One thing that people

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Speaker 1: don't understand is that you can if you don't want

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Speaker 1: your dues to go to anything besides supporting organizing your

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Speaker 1: particular workplace. You can request, unions are legally required to

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Speaker 1: offer you that as an option. UM. And then those

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Speaker 1: dudes get taken out of your paycheck and they get

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Speaker 1: used to do things like rent a union hall um,

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Speaker 1: pay staffers to help you with your organizing. UM. They

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Speaker 1: get taken to do lobbying, various types of political activity.

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Speaker 1: And so for a lot of people, unions will feel

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Speaker 1: like a professional association that lobbies on their break behalf

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Speaker 1: rather than a collective expression of the will of workers

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Speaker 1: in a particular workplace. But UM, or it'll feel like

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Speaker 1: patronage machine for you know, Democratic party, that sort of stuff. UM.

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Speaker 1: But that being said, UM, unions all have by laws,

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Speaker 1: they all have mechanisms by which there you know, theoretically

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Speaker 1: democratically accountable to the membership UM. And there are oftentimes

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Speaker 1: UM campaigns by workers to change how unions operate and UM.

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Speaker 1: And then also you know, when you're setting up a union,

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Speaker 1: if you're in a new if you're in a place

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Speaker 1: that doesn't have a union and you're looking to get

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Speaker 1: a union because you're fed up with not having any

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Speaker 1: kind of power over your workplace, or you feel like

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Speaker 1: people are getting discriminity against or bullied, UM, you feel

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Speaker 1: like you haven't gotten a raise, um, those sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: You can pick the union that you decide if you

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Speaker 1: want to get up a collective bargaining agreement, which is

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Speaker 1: a legal contract kind of like dictating how your workplace

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Speaker 1: operates in a uniform way. You can pick the union

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Speaker 1: that you want to organize with, and their unions that

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Speaker 1: are better to organize with, that are more democratic and

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Speaker 1: more collectively accountable. There are unions that are more organized

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Speaker 1: or more focused on actually building the union power and

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Speaker 1: organizing new workplaces. And then there are unions that are

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Speaker 1: kind of like there, you know, and I'm gonna say

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Speaker 1: that kind of blur. In the US, there's like a

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Speaker 1: blurry line between rank and file unions and business unions

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Speaker 1: because even rank and file unions are kind of constrained

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Speaker 1: by the same pressures that business unions operate under. And

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Speaker 1: I'll explain the difference. I'll sell any difference in a second,

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Speaker 1: but I just want to say that, like when you're

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Speaker 1: when you're getting a new union, it's really important for

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Speaker 1: you to critically look at what you're options are and

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Speaker 1: you're set and who you're organizing with, because unions have

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Speaker 1: different cultures and different amounts of UM, different kinds of politics,

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Speaker 1: and you should be aware of that before you and

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Speaker 1: your coworkers decide to commit to working with one union

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Speaker 1: while you're getting an or a union organized. UM. And

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Speaker 1: then I can explain that next part if you want

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Speaker 1: me to. All right, so yeah, so, And you know,

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Speaker 1: if you get deep into union history and deep into

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Speaker 1: organizing and figuring out like what unions are and what

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Speaker 1: they do and how they've worked kind of in the past,

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Speaker 1: you'll find that there's different types of unions. So American

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Speaker 1: unions started as like kind of like craft guilds, where

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Speaker 1: basically you would have a factory that might have like

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Speaker 1: twenty different unions of each individual group of people UM

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Speaker 1: in each individual skill set would be underneath the union,

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Speaker 1: and it was used as a way to kind of

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Speaker 1: control UM who was able to do the work and

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Speaker 1: who was getting hired in to do the work. And

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Speaker 1: a lot of times that would end up in the

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Speaker 1: United States UM being segregated UM. And there would be

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Speaker 1: these called union scamming where you would go in and

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Speaker 1: do work against people who are striking because your union

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Speaker 1: was fine, and you were cool with your boss and

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Speaker 1: these other people, whatever their problem is, You're just going

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Speaker 1: to keep doing the boss will offer you more money

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Speaker 1: and you'll do the work right. So and a lot

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Speaker 1: of that has kind of carried into we called trade

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Speaker 1: unions in the US a specific, and trade unionism is

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Speaker 1: particularly um prominent in uh in construction. So you'll have carpenters,

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Speaker 1: and you'll have you know, mason's and you'll have you know,

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Speaker 1: pipe fitters and iron workers, all these different guys and

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Speaker 1: they all kind of come together and work as a

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Speaker 1: crew for like a construction company, and oftentimes their union

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Speaker 1: operates more like a contractor than like a collective like uh,

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Speaker 1: expression of the power of those workers. So um, then

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Speaker 1: there are more there are unions that are would be

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Speaker 1: considered like industrial unions, so industrial unions. Industrial unionism was

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Speaker 1: invented by a union a hundred years ago called the

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Speaker 1: Industrial Workers of the World, and they were like, what

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Speaker 1: if we got took all of the workers in an

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Speaker 1: industry and got them into one big union, right, and

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Speaker 1: then what if all those workers in those different industries

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Speaker 1: were talking to each other and building their their power

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Speaker 1: And the goal would be that you would become so

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Speaker 1: powerful that you could basically take over industries as workers

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Speaker 1: and run them on a democratic basis, so that you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have you kind of liquidate capital. And I want,

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Speaker 1: I want to say that this briefly also like yeah,

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Speaker 1: so the bosses did not like this. I mean the MW,

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Speaker 1: Like the MW was so feared that like, like there's

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Speaker 1: something the Everett massacre where it's like it got to

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Speaker 1: a point in the early nighteen hundreds where just a

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Speaker 1: group of IWW people showing up to a place was

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Speaker 1: enough to get like the the the the entire like

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Speaker 1: the entire city police force and like rounding up literally

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Speaker 1: every right winger they could do and deputizing them and

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Speaker 1: then just opening fire like into the crowd because like

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Speaker 1: the IWW had showed up on a boat like this

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Speaker 1: was these people were tired, Like people were terrified of them.

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Speaker 1: And I think that the other thing I think was

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Speaker 1: really interesting about the early ww's history is that is

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Speaker 1: the so you know, part of the response to them

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Speaker 1: is like they are just massive, and this is what

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Speaker 1: the first red Scare was. Basically it was an anti

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Speaker 1: IWW thing. And also you know, they shot people, they

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Speaker 1: arrested people. They like they deported people. And but they

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Speaker 1: also you know a lot of the things that I

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Speaker 1: think we we have this tenants you look at as

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Speaker 1: like a socialist reform where for example, like putting workers

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Speaker 1: on corporate boards, right, or like like in internal democratic

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Speaker 1: self management, but that's like, you know, that's still still

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Speaker 1: sort of boss controlled, right, It's like, wow, Okay, you

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Speaker 1: have like a council of people who can make recommendations

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Speaker 1: or like even even down to you know, we're going

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Speaker 1: to have our own internal like corporate unions like set

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Speaker 1: up by the company, but you know that the corporate

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Speaker 1: union gives you a workers council and the council can

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Speaker 1: sort of control production. But you know, it's it's still

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Speaker 1: it's still run by the bosses. Like all of these

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Speaker 1: things were stuff that like the Rockefellers set up or

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Speaker 1: like even even the early neer levels would set the

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Speaker 1: stuffup because they were they were so scared of people,

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Speaker 1: like they were so scared of people just taking over

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Speaker 1: stuff democratically, just running it just literally through the union

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Speaker 1: that they were like we will we will literally give

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Speaker 1: you democracy in the workplace. We will give you like

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Speaker 1: we will give you like workers on corporate boards literally

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Speaker 1: just so long as you don't like take everything over. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that it's it's hard for people to imagine

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Speaker 1: how intense like the struggle for getting any kind of

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Speaker 1: rights in the workplace have been in the United States

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Speaker 1: in particular. I think a lot of people think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, uh, maybe not so much anymore. But when

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Speaker 1: I was younger, you know, twenty years ago, people would

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Speaker 1: be like, oh, you know, we're in America. We've got

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Speaker 1: you know, like we've got all these things, like we've got,

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Speaker 1: you know, an eight hour work day, and we've got

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Speaker 1: like a weekend and all like. And the thing is

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Speaker 1: is that literally people were murdered to win those things, right, like,

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Speaker 1: if you like. The reason why we have an eight

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Speaker 1: hour work day is because there was in Chicago a

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Speaker 1: famous uh, a famous strike that um ended up with

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Speaker 1: a massacre of um. It was like a police riot,

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Speaker 1: and then they rounded up a bunch of union organizers,

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Speaker 1: socialists and anarchists who were like involved in the labor

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Speaker 1: movement at that time, and then the state of Illinois

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Speaker 1: hung them. Um and so the wife of one of them,

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Speaker 1: of one of those people who was murdered at the

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Speaker 1: Haymarket or they called him the Haymarket murders. H Albert

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Speaker 1: Parsons was one of them. Her or his wife, Lucy Parsons,

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Speaker 1: who was I had a very veritable kind of like

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Speaker 1: not quite sure what her background was, but we do

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Speaker 1: know that she was probably a former slave. Uh. Albert

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Speaker 1: Parsons was a former Confederate. They got married in the South,

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Speaker 1: became Southern Republicans trying to like participate in radical reconstruction,

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Speaker 1: and then they basically had to flee because they were

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Speaker 1: um with their lives to the north. And uh. But

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Speaker 1: after that whole trial and all that shook out, Lucy

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Speaker 1: Parsons became a labor agitator across the United States fighting

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Speaker 1: for the eight hour day. And and they memorialized the

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Speaker 1: Haymarket Martyrs. And something that I think some of your

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Speaker 1: listeners will know about. Maybe they won't, but you know,

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Speaker 1: made a made a lot of people is like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's Russian or some foreign sort of thing. Now, that

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Speaker 1: is an American labor tradition that started here, and it

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Speaker 1: was because of a specific like the the labor movement

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Speaker 1: in the movement for the eight hour day in the

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Speaker 1: United States. So um, and that's kind of like once

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Speaker 1: you go from the IWW and industrial unions as an idea,

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Speaker 1: it got crushed in the twenties because it was so terrifying.

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Speaker 1: There's a really good, uh, a really good essay on

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Speaker 1: all that called the stop Watch and the Wooden Shoe

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Speaker 1: by a guy named Mike Davis, who kind of explains

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Speaker 1: how it is that IWW as the first union too

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Speaker 1: not only um try and build workers organization, but to

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Speaker 1: challenge workplace organization and to make those push back on

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Speaker 1: how production was happening and fight something called this speed

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Speaker 1: up where I think a lot of people who have

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Speaker 1: worked have experienced this time where a boss will come

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Speaker 1: in and say we're going to do things differently, and

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Speaker 1: they'll either get rid of a worker and put all

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Speaker 1: the extra work onto people who remain, or they'll change

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Speaker 1: things so you're doing more with the same amount of time. Um,

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Speaker 1: they got you know, they provoked a backlash. Um. There

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Speaker 1: were like spectacular like general strikes, the first general strike

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Speaker 1: in America in Seattle. There were i w W members

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Speaker 1: who are key members of the Seattle Labor Council, which

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Speaker 1: took craft unions and got their radicals together and coordinated

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Speaker 1: a general strike which is where there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: tweets about general strikes. But general strikes require a lot

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Speaker 1: of organization and coordination. We can talk about that later

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Speaker 1: if we want to, but key thing is the i

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Speaker 1: w W was always pushing for the organization necessary to

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Speaker 1: pull off a general strike, and they did it. And

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Speaker 1: so amongst those different things and their mine wars in

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Speaker 1: Colorado mine wars and Virginia West Virginia UM, they were

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Speaker 1: the first union that was explicitly anti racist. UM. They

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Speaker 1: they weren't perfect, but they were, but they organized multi

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Speaker 1: racial unions in UM, Philadelphia, the Docks, and various other places.

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Speaker 1: They were one of the few unions that really took

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Speaker 1: the first steps into organizing in the South in the

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Speaker 1: way that UM A lot of unions have kind of

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Speaker 1: failed too since. And because they were so effective and

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Speaker 1: so frightening, they got crushed. I mean. Also, what every

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Speaker 1: thing I want I want to say about them is that, like,

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Speaker 1: like the WW fought in the Mexican Revolution, because you

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Speaker 1: know a lot of the WW members in California particular

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Speaker 1: were like a lot of a lot of indigenous people,

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Speaker 1: a lot of sort of voted Mexican immigrants. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: they these huge ties and like they like they I think,

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Speaker 1: I think to this day this is still true outside

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Speaker 1: of Puerto Rico, Like they are the only leftist movement

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Speaker 1: that has ever like taking control of an American city,

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Speaker 1: like they they took to Lexico and Mexicality and like

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Speaker 1: a bunch of the sort of the border area. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That that's that, that's you know, part of why it

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Speaker 1: just escalates to everyone starts shooting them because well and

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Speaker 1: and they were truly an international union because they were

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Speaker 1: they focused on like longshoremen and organizing and docks that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. There were members of the i w

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Speaker 1: W organizing basically everywhere in the world, and they were

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Speaker 1: considered part of like what was like a global movement.

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Speaker 1: You call them syndicalists, which is kind of like a

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Speaker 1: an Italian term or French term um, which is this

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Speaker 1: the you know, like like the Latin version of the

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Speaker 1: Union of Syndicate uh and um. There were similar unions

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Speaker 1: across the world up through the early twentieth century until

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Speaker 1: right about the time when the Russians, the Russian Revolution happened,

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Speaker 1: and then there were subsequent crackdowns. And because these people,

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Speaker 1: who I mean, the IWW was a mix of native

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Speaker 1: native born Americans and immigrants, and they were painted as

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Speaker 1: this foreign sort of force. They were un American. That

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Speaker 1: was like the whole nexus of un Americanism as like

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Speaker 1: an idea, and the US state was able to mobilize

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Speaker 1: after World War One to really put that down and

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Speaker 1: so so there's a lot of history there in that.

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Speaker 1: But the idea of the industrial union didn't go away, right.

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Speaker 1: The union, the IWW was effectively dismembered and scattered. But

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who had experience as IWW members

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Speaker 1: who had been in those strikes, UM didn't like just disappear.

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Speaker 1: They didn't all get deported or sent away. UM. A

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Speaker 1: lot of them kind of tuck their heads down and

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Speaker 1: went back to work, you know. And in the ninet

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Speaker 1: thirties we saw the rise of another industrial the next

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Speaker 1: step towards industrial unionism. So it's called the c i O,

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Speaker 1: which is the Congress of Industrial Organizations. Now there were

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Speaker 1: multiple at that point. There was the Communist Party USA,

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Speaker 1: the Socialist Party of America, and UM, former members of

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Speaker 1: the IWW and various like anarchists who were participants in

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Speaker 1: kind of the organization of the c i O. And

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Speaker 1: the thing about c i O was was that when

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Speaker 1: they came together, UM, it was in the Great Depression

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Speaker 1: had really kind of kicked off, and they were able

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Speaker 1: to organize like really explosively across all these new industries.

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Speaker 1: So they like the U a W. United Auto Workers

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Speaker 1: was like part of the c i O. And they

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Speaker 1: would they pioneered forms of strikes called sit down strike,

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Speaker 1: which was basically a factory seizure. All the workers would

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Speaker 1: just say we're not going to walk out, We're going

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Speaker 1: to lock ourselves in and we're going to sit down

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Speaker 1: and it's our factory now, and now you're going to

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Speaker 1: have to negotiate with And it became this thing where

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Speaker 1: it was like millions of people were like the I

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Speaker 1: w W at any one time was like hundreds of

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Speaker 1: thousands of people, and the c i O became a

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Speaker 1: thing where it was millions of people and UM and

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Speaker 1: at least at the beginning when they had there, when

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Speaker 1: they had we're at the peak of their like power

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Speaker 1: and militancy. UM, they were able to mobilize workers to

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Speaker 1: take over factories, take over factories from some of the

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Speaker 1: most powerful corporations on the earth on Earth. And you know,

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Speaker 1: at the same time um. While they were doing this,

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Speaker 1: the police and UH company UM company security and vigilantes

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Speaker 1: which had never gone away from like the IW, we're

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Speaker 1: doing the same sorts of things. So they would regularly

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Speaker 1: beat strikers, would regularly there would be you know, regular

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Speaker 1: labor massacres, um disappearances of various um of labor organizers

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Speaker 1: or labor leaders or even just random workers that they

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Speaker 1: thought were like, oh, you're a unionist, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: get in the back of this uh, get in the

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Speaker 1: back of this truck. And then they were never seen again. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then laws started to be enacted, I believe out

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Speaker 1: of fear that if this, if this movement didn't get

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Speaker 1: somehow put under brought in under control, that there would

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Speaker 1: be a revolution. And so uh so that's when we

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Speaker 1: started to see the enactment of laws like the National

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Speaker 1: Labor Relations Act, which made having a union like that

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Speaker 1: was the first time when being any union was considered

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Speaker 1: legal at the federal level. And that uh the FDR

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Speaker 1: the New Deal Democrats basically attempted to broker something called

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Speaker 1: labor peace where they would say, we're no longer going

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Speaker 1: to mobilize the state against workers in the way that

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Speaker 1: we have previously. Now local police would still side with

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Speaker 1: bosses that sort of thing. But uh, and those sorts

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Speaker 1: of massacres and that sort of stuff didn't really go

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Speaker 1: away until like the forties. Um. But um, that was

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Speaker 1: the beginning of because what you do see is unions

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Speaker 1: get channeled into Once you have like a million people

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Speaker 1: in the union, you have just enormous amounts of resources,

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Speaker 1: all these dues coming in. You have the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the labor bureaucracy. Whereas before it would be you know,

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Speaker 1: there would be hired you know, paid labor organizers, but

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Speaker 1: they were always shifting around, and they were they were

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Speaker 1: brought up as communists or socialists, and they had ideological

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Speaker 1: commitments to building the power of the union and the

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Speaker 1: power of workers that you know, if you are just

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Speaker 1: a you know, and someone with some ambition and decided

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Speaker 1: you want to become like anyone at this point you know,

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Speaker 1: who wants to become a paid union staffer. If you're

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Speaker 1: like you know, if you care to and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, Um, then being a union staffer was a

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Speaker 1: different thing than is now. It was. I think I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to remember the name of the president. I think

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Speaker 1: it's John Lewis. John Lewis, who was a Republican back

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Speaker 1: in the day, said, you know, I think famously said

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Speaker 1: at one point it's like, if you want to build

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Speaker 1: a union, or if you want to build a house,

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Speaker 1: you call a carpenter, if you want to build a union,

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Speaker 1: you call communists, and so uh and so they would

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Speaker 1: literally would go to like the the you know, the

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Speaker 1: Communist Party and say we need organizers. And the Communist

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Speaker 1: Party did a lot of work to training people to

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Speaker 1: be organizers, and they were militant, they were ready to

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Speaker 1: throw down because to them, they were looking at this

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Speaker 1: as part of a you know, class struggle against you know,

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Speaker 1: bosses and you know, a way of overthrown capital. Um.

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Speaker 1: That kind of went through until World War two. And uh.

433
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: When World War two hit, that's when the Soviet Union,

434
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: which in many ways controlled what was happening with communists

435
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: with CPUs A, basically said we need a labor piece

436
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: because we need to support the war effort. And so

437
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: that's when union started signing contracts with no strike clauses,

438
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: and they started um agreeing that they would no longer

439
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: strike um and and they started agreeing to things like

440
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: speed ups. There used to be a time when uh,

441
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: these mass industrial unions, the stewards would walk around with

442
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: a whistle on their neck. They have a whistle on

443
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: a lanyard and any time that workers decided that this

444
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: is like an example of how powerful these unions were.

445
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: Not just like as like an organization, but every day

446
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: at your workplace, if you thought that something was not right,

447
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: or you were not being treated fairly, or somehow the

448
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: contract was in breach, you would go to your steward

449
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: and your steward would pull out this whistle and would

450
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: blow the whistle. It's called a whistle stop strike and

451
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: everyone would set down their tools until management would come

452
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: out and they would either agree to pay more or

453
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: stop what was happening and fix it. And so um,

454
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: there was a time when strikes would be you would

455
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: have intermittent work stoppages. So you wouldn't go out like indefinitely.

456
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: You would go out on strike for like three months.

457
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 1: Though that happened. You wouldn't just and it wouldn't just

458
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 1: be your factory. It would be hey, we're getting on

459
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: the phone and we're calling our friends down the street

460
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: at the next at your supplier. It's called a secondary strike.

461
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: So if you're working at like a steel mill, and

462
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: your steel mills dependent on coke from the next factory over.

463
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: You're calling up your friends in the same union down

464
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: the way, say stop sending coke, stop sending materials. Where

465
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: these things to us, we're on strike. You as you

466
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: all set your tools down, you go on strike. And

467
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: it would and these strikes would like massively expand so

468
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: you would see things instead of seeing you know, we

469
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: just went through Striketober, right, yeah, and we just and

470
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: so we saw like what we call a strike wave.

471
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: But in and in some ways it was a strike wave.

472
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: But I think that we still don't I think it's

473
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: so far away from living memory of what a real

474
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: strike wave is, where people would go on strike in

475
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: one factory and then the next factory, in the next factory,

476
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: the next very it literally would be a wave of

477
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: people um going on strike. And this was all the

478
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: result of all the organization that people had, in the

479
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: militant attitude that people had about like how they were

480
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: going to be treated at work. It's worth mentioning that

481
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: one of the so the National Labor Relations Act, which

482
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: is past nineteenturty five, which is like that you know,

483
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: this is the beginning labor piece, Like you know, it's okay,

484
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: we'll give you the right re union, but you cannot

485
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: do secondary strikes like that, Like this is this is

486
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: explicitly banned in this if I'm remembering this right, is

487
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: that there's a specific thing that says you can't do

488
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: secondary strikes anymore. And you know, and this was this

489
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: was you know, the basis of this piece was that

490
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: like yeah, as you sort of said before, it was like, well, okay,

491
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: so the state will put their guns down, but the

492
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: workers also essentially have to put their guns down. And yeah,

493
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: and this this starts this whole process of you know,

494
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: on once once you lose like that kind of consciousness

495
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: and once you lose the practical experience of doing this stuff,

496
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: it kind of it fades and and over time, you know, yeah,

497
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: the atrophies and and the unions get weaker and weaker

498
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: because you know, like with without like you know what,

499
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: once you once you've set aside, right and you've decided

500
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: that you're gonna essentially you know, okay, we're gonna we're

501
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: gonna follow the laws, we're gonna sit down, we're gonna

502
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: do this, We're gonna like negotiate in good faith, we're

503
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: going to have all of this sort of um, you know,

504
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: we're we're gonna go through the National LA Relations Board.

505
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: It's like, well, at that point, people like people, people's

506
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: willingness to pick the weapons back up that they put

507
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: down just sort of continues to diminish. Well, I think

508
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: what happens is I mean, And so there was like

509
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: a ten year period. So first there was like the

510
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: first five you know, five ten years of c I

511
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: oh was when we see like this really like intense

512
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: militancy within these unions. And halfway through like you know,

513
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: the passage of that first long in the nineteen thirties, UM,

514
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: that's when we started to see the erosion. And we

515
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,479
Speaker 1: constantly see I think I think that people don't understand

516
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: is that our bosses are always trying to assert their

517
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: control over work. And we'll see that like UM bosses

518
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: will do all kinds of contortions as long as they

519
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: get to stay in charge and that they're unquestioned. And

520
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: I don't think we understand quite how long the long

521
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: game is for UM, for management, for our bosses, and

522
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: for capital. And so you know, it starts with the

523
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: National Labor Relations Act and then it goes through uh, um,

524
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: it goes through World War Two. In the World War Two,

525
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: that's when the c i O goes from you know,

526
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: you know, millions of people to like tens of millions,

527
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: and it becomes like a thing where like that's when

528
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: you know, like Americans are in a union, right, um,

529
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: because I mean to the extent that that to the

530
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: extent that um, there were those compromises happened. It didn't

531
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: just compromise. It wasn't just like a failure of like, oh,

532
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: like we're just going to start capitulating. It's like there

533
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: were interests inside the union. They're looking at like, well,

534
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: this is a lot of resources and power that we

535
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: have now. But wait until like it's you know of

536
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: America paying union dudes. And there were people inside the

537
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: Democratic Party who were willing to trade um, that labor

538
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: piece for that you would start to see, you know,

539
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: that's when politicians would show up to UM two union

540
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: hall to talk and try and get you know, and

541
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: that's when you know, the Democratic Party, it would be

542
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be unusual to hear a Democratic politician, UM

543
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: say things about like labor that you would like that

544
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: no politician would say today. And now that doesn't mean

545
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: that they were like on the side of the workers,

546
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: but you know, you would have literally, um, President Eisenhower

547
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,959
Speaker 1: telling the president of U. S. Steel to get fucked

548
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: over like a general, like you're you're trying to shut

549
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: down like you know, this is like the the steel

550
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: industry is a lifeblood of backbone of the American economy. Um,

551
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: you know, and you're trying to shut this down, trying

552
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: to kill the golden goose, like get back to work,

553
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: let the pay these people what they're asking. Um. But

554
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: you know, so you would see the people who kind

555
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: of floated to the top of those uh unions trading

556
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: their trading away their workers power and their workers well

557
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: being for more and more month. First off, the would

558
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: be more money, so you would you like, they would

559
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: start getting raises that were really substantial, and it would

560
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: boost up a union steel worker or a union auto

561
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: worker into what we consider like the comfortable middle class

562
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: where people could like buy a like a fishing cabin

563
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: or something up on a lake, send their kids to college,

564
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: all these sorts of things that were just kind of

565
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 1: like unobtainable sorts of things. If you were the same

566
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: in the same industry twenty years earlier. Yeah, and um,

567
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 1: and that felt like wins, you know, two people. And

568
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: also in the nineteen forties, after World War Two, they

569
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: passed the Taff Hartley Act, which basically meant that they

570
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 1: forced unions. Well they did, okay, they wrote into law

571
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: that it was illegal to be a communist or an

572
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: anarchist in uh in a union. And so they're literally

573
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,439
Speaker 1: still unions that still have language in their in their

574
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: membership parts or they're like I declare, I'm I've never

575
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 1: been a member of the Communist Party. I'm not an

576
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: you know, an anarchist. Uh. I mean like I have

577
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: friends who have pulled that out. Now it doesn't have

578
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: any effect now, but that was they basically took all

579
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: the people, you know, the people that uh that were

580
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: you know, the people that you would have called to

581
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: build the union twenty years later or before, we're getting

582
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: thrown out of unions. And that didn't happen in every like.

583
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: There were attempts to do that in all kinds of countries.

584
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: They tried to do it in the UK, and the

585
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 1: unions in the UK told basically told the government to

586
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: go fund themselves, and they you know, it's like but

587
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: because the leadership of the of the c I O

588
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: industrial unions began to see themselves more in alignment with

589
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: are ruling class and are you know, like the Democratic Party,

590
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: they decided that they were big enough that they didn't

591
00:35:55,360 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: have to have militants involved anymore. And that's when you know, uh,

592
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: people were literally would get fired out of did either

593
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 1: either militants and staff would get fired or uh, they

594
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: would get fired out of factories if you're like a

595
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,919
Speaker 1: ranking file worker. So um, and that's when we begin

596
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: to see the rise of what we call business unionism.

597
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: And that's where we would have union bureaucrats would and

598
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: um would you know, would basically start making concessionary contracts.

599
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: And this started you know back in you know, a

600
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: lot of people are like, oh, you know, back in

601
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: the fifties, unions are really powerful and they were powerful

602
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 1: to get you know, like raises, but those raises came

603
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: at the expense of control over the work process, came

604
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: at the expense of the speed up um and as

605
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: unions like because the rank and file workers, like you're saying,

606
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 1: you know, ranking file workers, and they see their things

607
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: there these tools getting put down and they were more

608
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: reluctant to pick them up first off, is because of

609
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: the amount of money that they're getting paid. And but

610
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 1: they pushed back, they were like this is I mean, like,

611
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 1: there's a really great book called The Next Shift UM

612
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: by Gabriel win At. It's all about the shift from steel,

613
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: the steel industry as like the center of the U.

614
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: S economy to healthcare UM, and how unions basically started

615
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: to erode away there like throw it, like hand over

616
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: their power in exchange for money. And then when they

617
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: were told like there was UM and attempts to get

618
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 1: socialized medicine and the under the Truman administration, and when

619
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: they were basically uh, they they hit a speed bump

620
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: in there and it got shot down. They decided that

621
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: instead of trying to win those uh those broad social

622
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: reforms for everybody, they're like, well, we can use our

623
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: our power to strike to get basically construct a private

624
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: welfare date for our workers. And so that's when you

625
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: begin to see UM things like uh, the they call

626
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 1: them like the gold plated insurance plans for certain types

627
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: of unionized workers, and those would kind of UM and

628
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: those are kind of used as like a private welfare

629
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: state for all those workers. And it was built with

630
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: the assumption you're gonna have low cost workers basically doing

631
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: all this care work UM, and oftentimes it would be

632
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: women of color and UM. And through that you start

633
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: to see this real sharp client from the sixties in

634
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 1: like UH in union UM, militancy UM. And that's when factory,

635
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: when capital starts moving factories out of city centers where

636
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: it's very easy to organize a factory when everyone lives

637
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: within walking distance the factory, and when they're done with

638
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 1: their shift at the factory, they're all at the bar

639
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 1: outside the outside the factory gates, and you can just

640
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: like if you want to have a union meeting, if

641
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: you want organized even a wildcat strike, all you have

642
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: to do is show up at the right bar and

643
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,959
Speaker 1: that's where everyone is after they're done with their shift. UM.

644
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: They started moving and dispersing the industrial capacity of the

645
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 1: United of you know, the the US urban core out

646
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 1: into suburbs. So that's now where you'll drive through rural

647
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: Indiana and you'll pass like five factories and they're surrounded

648
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: by nothing but corn fields. It's because it's a lot

649
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: harder to organize auto workers when they all live thirty

650
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: minute drive from each other, and none of them hang

651
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: out at the same bar anymore. Uh, And then you

652
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: start to see UM and all through that time, the

653
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: commitments to anti racism are eroded. So you'll see UM

654
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: jobs get start to get segregated out inside it's like

655
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 1: steel mills and things like that. But then, you know,

656
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: is also the rise of rank and file movements to

657
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: push back. So UM, all the while we're talking about this,

658
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: there's always workers who remember what these things were like

659
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: and why, and the power that they used to have,

660
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: and they would do the best that they could get

661
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 1: organized and so UM. There's a really good UM documentary

662
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: you can find a YouTube called Finally Got the News.

663
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: It's about the Dodge Revolutionary Union movement in Detroit, which

664
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: was a rank and file reform movement organized by UM

665
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 1: by black auto workers. They got like a fair amount

666
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 1: of support from white auto workers because they're basically there's

667
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: you know, interviews with U a W bureaucrats and they're

668
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: just like, you know, we're getting people these raises. Why

669
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: are they upset that they're like getting named in the

670
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: factory right, or why are they getting upset that you know,

671
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: you know, black workers are constantly getting put into the

672
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: shittiest jobs or the first to get laid off, that

673
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: sort of thing. And that's a it's a really I

674
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: suggest anyone has time. And that came out of like

675
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: the I think that was immediately after the was getting

676
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: organized after the assassination Martin Luther King and all the

677
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 1: riots that were happening in the h in the sixties

678
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: had like that late sixties period. Um, in the seventies,

679
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: there was a teamster, the teamster rank and file rebellion.

680
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: My grandpa was a teamster trucker. My grandma was a teamster.

681
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 1: She was like a punch card operator. But yeah, sorry, yeah, yeah, no,

682
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: I mean like teams, these unions got so big and

683
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 1: they have that's how you end up with like there's

684
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 1: U a W teaching assistance now, right, Um, Like how

685
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: do you end up with these huge like uh unions?

686
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,240
Speaker 1: And during teams are rebellion And my grandpa would tell

687
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: these stories like we're going on there would be a

688
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: wildcat strike and they call it out over the CB radios.

689
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: And the way they would enforce the picket line wasn't

690
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: just like oh, we're gonna like standing in the road

691
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 1: or something. They would hang coke bottles full of rocks

692
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: over the overpasses, just high enough up to like that

693
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: cars wo pass underneath them, but if you hit one

694
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: and you're in a truck, it's funk up your day. Um.

695
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: And that was like a really um like a really

696
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: kind of like powerful pushback by rank and file workers

697
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: against what they saw was the erosion of their power.

698
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: Because I think that I think there's this sometimes amongst

699
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: people who consider themselves to be left or whatever, there's

700
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: like this kind of doom and gloom like, oh, it's

701
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 1: only like we're only losing, right. But and there's been

702
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: a lot of as the seventies happened, and capital is

703
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: kind of reconfiguring itself in the middle of all the

704
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: economic upheaval inflation. Um, Basically, they got to the point

705
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 1: where we can't maintain labor peace and maintain profits, right,

706
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: so they could maintain labor piece and have something more

707
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: like a socialist system, or they can maintain control over

708
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: the work process and just do everything in their power

709
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 1: to destroy the power of workers. And they decide to

710
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 1: do that. Um. So I think we were coming out

711
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: of this kind of era where you know, if you

712
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: were in a union and working at a factory. Um,

713
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: there was a real threat that they're like, well, we're

714
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: just gonna shut this factory down, and you know, naft

715
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: to get signed. Well, first it was the pet Go

716
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 1: strike with Reagan. Reagan gets elected and air air traffic

717
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: controllers decided they're going to go on strike and um,

718
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: and they and Reagan decided he was going to break it,

719
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: and they brought in they basically there was this bigg recession.

720
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: It was like this huge mess where people were really

721
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: desperate for work and um, you know, they said, we're

722
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 1: going to hire anyone to be an air traffic controller

723
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: and we're gonna break the strike. And that was the

724
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: first real the first like that the beginning of the

725
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: end of that final, like that big moment era of

726
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: industry real unionism in the United States. And we went

727
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: from a place where you know, U a W had millions,

728
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: the United Auto Workers had millions and millions of workers

729
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: and if you drove a car or a truck in

730
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: his main America is made by union worker, to this

731
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: point where now the AW is around fifty people. I

732
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 1: was shocked when I heard that, literally like two weeks ago. Um,

733
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 1: you know, we just have the big U, a W

734
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: strike at John Deer, UM. And there's been and you know,

735
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: all through this while this is going on, UM, there's

736
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 1: various union corruption scandals. And that's again the cause of

737
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 1: like when you kick out all the people who have

738
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 1: an ideological commitment to improving the lives of working people

739
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 1: and building the power of working people out of this

740
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: organization that's only existence is to like build the power

741
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: of working people. UM, then you then you end up

742
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: with people who are basically criminals. Like you end up

743
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: like there would be Uh. I think Reagan scat like

744
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan and was h was a union member, but

745
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: he was like the union member for like a corrupt

746
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 1: like there was like there was like a battle between

747
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: like the c I O controlled union in like Hollywood

748
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: and like the corrupt like moss mobbed up union and

749
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: the mobbed up union, like that was the side if

750
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: I'm that that was a side that Raagant picked and

751
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,359
Speaker 1: uh and yeah, so it's like you could kind of

752
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of like media where they

753
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 1: would be like you know, the Waterfront in various like

754
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: movies and things talking about union corruption. And I think

755
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: the union corruption is real and it's a it's when

756
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: it happens, it's a huge problem. It shouldn't like it's

757
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: in other countries like in like in Germany, if they

758
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: found out like a union union official like misappropriated like

759
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: two thousand euros, it would be a nationwide scandal like UM.

760
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: Also in uh In like European countries, you pay union

761
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: dues on a voluntary basis. Right in the US legally,

762
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 1: since we're a close shop system, like once you're at

763
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 1: a union UH union workplace, your dues get taken, whether

764
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: you know whether you're happy with the union or not.

765
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,760
Speaker 1: Now there are people will say that's really important because

766
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: unions need every penny they can to fight where they have.

767
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: But when unions have to fight for membership and make

768
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 1: sure that their membership knows that they're getting like what

769
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: they're paying for, you get a little bit more responsiveness.

770
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: So I think that's another thing that especially people are

771
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: thinking about unions and thinking about joining a union are

772
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: creating getting any of the workplace. Just understand what a

773
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: union is and how they work and where your money

774
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: is going to, and that if you're unhappy with that,

775
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: the best thing to do is to get involved with

776
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: your union to try and like get connected with your

777
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 1: coworkers who have similar complaints and change the union. Because

778
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: there's a saying it's like any union is better than

779
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: no union. That's not always true, but it generally is

780
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 1: there there there's like a very small chance that like

781
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: you're like living in nineteen nine China and like your

782
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: union is like is controlled by like a commodation of

783
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: the K and T and like literally the Chinese heroine trade.

784
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: But you know that that like, yeah, that like doesn't

785
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 1: there there there are things where you'll have like there,

786
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: my dad worked at a factory and there was it

787
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: was a teamster organized factory, and like some of the

788
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: stewards for bullies and literally like there were some people

789
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: who were dealing drugs out of it, and they gave

790
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: the the workers like try to bring in another union,

791
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: and the and the management decided to offer to also

792
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: try and desertify decertify the union at the same time,

793
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: and the workers voted to desert. And the thing is

794
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: is that now that factory shut down and gone um

795
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: and I guess like the thing is is that you

796
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: have to It's far better for workers to assert their

797
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: rights within their union where they have some modicum of

798
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: democratic control over what's going on than it is to

799
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 1: just throw up your hands and like there's and do nothing.

800
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: Because if you do nothing, the boss is always doing something. Yeah,

801
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: Like that's the thing is, like management is always organizing.

802
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,879
Speaker 1: They're always coming up with ways to like to undermine

803
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,320
Speaker 1: the control of workers at work, to pick people against

804
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 1: each other. Um, we can get into it later, but like, uh,

805
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: they want, they'll use racism and those sorts of things

806
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: to dole out favors or curry favoritism and like you know,

807
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 1: pit people against each other. So I think that it's

808
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 1: important to just say that, like the union is going

809
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: to be your only effective way to push back, well,

810
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: the union or collective action, because I guess I also

811
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: want to say that there are times when organizing union

812
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: isn't the best solution to solving your problem at work. Ultimately,

813
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: this is all about how do you solve problems at work? Right?

814
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: And they're sometimes when you can do collective action that

815
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: is protected as you know as labor organizing, but it's

816
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 1: not done within a union. And so and because America

817
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: is a really best of place and you have right

818
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 1: to work states and places where like being in a

819
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: union is like literally illegal. Um sometimes putting the time,

820
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: you're like you can't get into a union, and therefore

821
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: you have to come up with other solutions, or sometimes

822
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: because of the nature of a workplace, like getting a

823
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: union is like it's very hard or like basically impossible.

824
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:47,919
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that you can't organize, And I think

825
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: that that's the thing that everyone needs to understand. I

826
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of like boosterism of unions amongst

827
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: younger workers because people just don't understand how they work

828
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: or they haven't experienced in themselves. And I think that

829
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: the main thing is is that you've got to be

830
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: very careful with your time and understanding. Like building a

831
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: union can take like ten years from the beginning of

832
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: we're upset to now we have a collective bargaining agreement,

833
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: or now we have a collective bargaining agreement. It could

834
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: be another five or ten years before you actually get

835
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 1: to the point where you're organized enough to go on strike.

836
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: And people oftentimes think that that's like they look back

837
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,439
Speaker 1: at the history of things and they're like, oh, it's

838
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: so easy. But back then people were taking all they mean,

839
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: they it took them years to build the the US

840
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,800
Speaker 1: labor movement into what it was at its peak. It

841
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: took decades, right, and I think that we are kind

842
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: of used to this instant gratification kind of stuff. We

843
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: have to understand it. It's like, if you're going to

844
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:51,439
Speaker 1: be in a workplace where you're there for enough time

845
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: to build the trust and relationships and understanding of how

846
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: the work workplace works and keep your job and be

847
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: someone that people don't look at, is like a shirk

848
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 1: or whatever. Not that I don't think that people should

849
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,879
Speaker 1: you know, people should work as hard as they can

850
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 1: and not any more harder than that. But whatever. Um.

851
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: But I think that you know, I'm anti work, but

852
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: you know that's the whole other thing. Unions are the

853
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 1: best way to limit the amount of work that you

854
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: have to do. Um, if you're gonna if you're going

855
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: to uh, you know, work as a wage labor um.

856
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 1: But I'll just say that, it's like I think that

857
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: people don't that. It's difficult sometimes to understand how much

858
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 1: work goes into getting to the point of getting a union,

859
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,879
Speaker 1: but it's always worth putting the time in to get there.

860
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: And you may not win the first try, but if

861
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: you are if if the conditions are right and things like,

862
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 1: you know, we make our history, but not in conditions

863
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: of our choosing. Sometimes things don't work out, but not

864
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: doing it is I think, a it's detrimental to you

865
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: and your co workers. And even times like I've talked

866
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: with people who have been involved in campaigns where they

867
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:08,280
Speaker 1: got fired but then all of a sudden conditions approved afterwards,

868
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: and they look at that as like, oh, ship, we

869
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: didn't get our union, but everyone got raises and they

870
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: change some things at work, and that's actually a victory.

871
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 1: So you know, I think that I think of each

872
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: other as like collective building collective power, and the amount

873
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: of time it takes to do that is daunting, but

874
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: I think it's the sort of thing that we need

875
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: to do if we're serious about changing how we can

876
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: actually like how our lives work and how much power

877
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: we have outside of work, because unions are also places

878
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 1: where we do things that affect outside of our work

879
00:52:43,000 --> 00:53:06,840
Speaker 1: as well. Um, George flayd uprising. You know, uh in

880
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 1: Minneapolis there were nurses union nurses who walked out the

881
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: door um to support uh, you know, people who were

882
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: uh basically having an insurrection against like you know, police violence.

883
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: In in Minneapolis when the when COVID pandemic hit off,

884
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: year of everything going off, nurses nurses were going out

885
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: and confronting UH. Union nurses were going out and confronting

886
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: anti mass protesters. Like I was literally getting screamed at

887
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: by like some Looney Tunes doctor holding a banner that

888
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: said nurses are dying. Go home with like twenty other

889
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 1: union nurses And we were the only people out there

890
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 1: who are like together, who are you know, immediately impacted

891
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: by this stuff and UM, And I think it made

892
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: a difference, Like I think it's important, and so I

893
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: think that UM some idea called social unionism. So if

894
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: you get to the point where building a union and

895
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 1: you're making progress, and you get to that point where

896
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: you have a union, always be advocating for to the

897
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: extent that you can that your union is engaged in

898
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 1: the kind of UM, like connecting with your community around

899
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 1: your workplace, figuring out the things that are impacting people's

900
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 1: lives outside of unions. Because I think that's another thing

901
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: that UM. For a long time, unions just ignored or

902
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 1: let atrophy because they didn't think it was their problem anymore.

903
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,320
Speaker 1: Was you know, mutual aid helped build the labor movement.

904
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: You know, workers would get would literally like in West

905
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 1: Virginia and matuan Uh they had uh company police throwing

906
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:50,720
Speaker 1: people out of their apartments who are on strike, and

907
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: the there were you know, all of a sudden, two

908
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: thousand of your fellow workers showing up and throwing the

909
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 1: police out of town and putting people's uh, you know,

910
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 1: belonging to in their house or you know. And I

911
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: believe we're getting back to that point where you know,

912
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 1: teachers went on striking West Virginia and the union and

913
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 1: the teachers did everything they could to support their students

914
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 1: while they were out, because like, I think there's this

915
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 1: idea that a lot of union workers at this point

916
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: are you know, everyone is like, you know, the American

917
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 1: workforce is so desperate and so and they've just been

918
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: pushed around so much that you know, there was this

919
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 1: idea for a time like in Wisconsin, what was or

920
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 1: what was the Scott Walker consint Uprising just eleven, wasn't it?

921
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 1: I think it was like right around occupy It wasn't

922
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 1: around there, And like there was this idea that's like,

923
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 1: oh you're a nurse, Oh you're a teacher, Like you

924
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: should just be happy that your job has some kind

925
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 1: of meaning to it, right, And it was a lot

926
00:55:55,800 --> 00:56:01,280
Speaker 1: of like weird discourse around in the media of about

927
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: like how dare these people? I think that they deserve anything?

928
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 1: And the thing is is that how can you, like,

929
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: as a nurse, how can I take care of my

930
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: patients safely when I'm constantly having, um like, more and

931
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: more work put on me, right, and that that immediately

932
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: affects the people that I'm taken care of. So that

933
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 1: when when we went on strike in twenty nineteen, it

934
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: was around our safe staffing. UM and if I've seen

935
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:36,879
Speaker 1: management make decisions about staffing that kill people, and I've

936
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: seen management make decisions that lead to my coworkers getting injured.

937
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,800
Speaker 1: Um I management made decisions that led to me getting

938
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 1: COVID and messed me up for a year. And so

939
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,439
Speaker 1: when people in these kind of care worker roles, which

940
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: I think has become a more prominent part of the U.

941
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 1: S economy as people are getting older and they need

942
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: more like care work, home care workers, nursing home workers,

943
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: hospital workers. UM. Parents don't can't rely on family the

944
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: way they used to to help take care kids. School

945
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 1: has become like this really important, like uh institution for

946
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: you know, working class survival. Um that you can't do

947
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: those jobs as a worker if you don't have the resources.

948
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: So like our our children were at the Chicago public

949
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: schools and there that you know, the Chicago Teachers Union,

950
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: which was taken over by the rank and file UM,

951
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: I think in two thousand five or six by you know,

952
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: a group of black women led by Karen Lewis. They

953
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 1: set up a group called like a rank and file

954
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: caucus called the Caucus of Rank and File Educators or

955
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 1: Radical Educators. Cores might be messing up, but it's called CORE.

956
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 1: They went out on strike in and and as a

957
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, as just this was before my kids were

958
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 1: old not to be in those schools. I was out

959
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: there still taking them coffee donuts, right because I knew

960
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 1: that they're in there. Because things stuck. By the time

961
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: my kids were old enough in nineteen for it to

962
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: be a big thing, and the teachers when I'm striking

963
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: in Chicago, it had gotten so it's so bad that

964
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: Chicago teachers like Chicago Public schools have the the lowest

965
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 1: number of staff two students of any school system in Illinois.

966
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 1: It's not even like half right and um. And it's

967
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: funny because the state had been constantly trying to erode

968
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: the power of the union. They're making Chicago teachers like

969
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: pay their for their own retirement basically in a way

970
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: that no other like workers have to. Um. They were

971
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 1: making it so that Chicago teachers could only go on

972
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: strike over of the teachers voted to go on strike.

973
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 1: UM so when so what that does is there's kind

974
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 1: of like a a little bit of a flip where oh,

975
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 1: we have to make of you know, people agree to

976
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: go on strike. Well, let's organize so much that we

977
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 1: get people to agree to go on strike, and then

978
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 1: how powerful is our strikes? Our strikes is going to be.

979
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 1: We're literally like one of the things I do as

980
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: a steward is I connect with all the different unions

981
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 1: and at the University Chicago where I work, through a

982
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 1: labor council, we were going, as you know, university workers

983
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 1: to all the picket lines of the public schools around

984
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 1: our neighborhood and we're bringing out coffee, bringing out donuts,

985
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: talking to people. Hey, I'm a nurse. We were on

986
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 1: strike like six or like two or three months ago.

987
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 1: What do you all need connecting with people. And then

988
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 1: and then like at one point when the teachers were like,

989
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:53,919
Speaker 1: we're not getting what we want and this is LORI

990
00:59:54,120 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: lightfoot is trash there, uh, we helped organized this mass

991
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:05,919
Speaker 1: march where multiple marches of teachers and school workers and

992
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: we're all out in the streets dodging cop cars until

993
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 1: we have this big convergence. And it was really beautiful,

994
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: Like we had like multiple people with like multiple banners

995
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: and different columns, each one saying we will win, going

996
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 1: through the streets of our neighborhood UM and like messing

997
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 1: up like the commercial traffic area in uh in our

998
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: very bougie neighborhood. UM. But that was happening all over

999
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: the city and it's just like when you see that happen,

1000
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: it's because we're literally in the support of the community

1001
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 1: for those strikes was so overwhelming because people knew that.

1002
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: It's like these people, aren't it. I mean, like, first off,

1003
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 1: it's a hard job. There's no reason why anyone doing

1004
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 1: that job shouldn't have like a materially comfortable life. That's

1005
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 1: how stressful it is and how much work they do.

1006
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 1: And I really like, I really need to emphasize this

1007
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 1: enough people. There's this whole thing is like, oh, teachers

1008
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 1: don't work over the summer, like, oh, but no, like

1009
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 1: their job sucks. They have to they have to deal

1010
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 1: with these kids all day. And the other thing is like,

1011
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: you know, the part of it that you don't see

1012
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 1: is they have to do all the lesson plans. They

1013
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 1: have to great all the stuff, have to do all

1014
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 1: this stuff like after the school day end, they have

1015
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: to do all the suff honestibly, all the time. This

1016
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: job is awful. It is extremely hard, and like they don't. Yeah,

1017
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 1: the conditions are extremely bad. I'll never forget when I'll

1018
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: never forget when I ran into my seventh grade science

1019
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: teacher on the summer she was waiting tables at a

1020
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:32,919
Speaker 1: local restaurant, you know, I mean, And so I think

1021
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 1: that there's this assumption that like that, especially care workers

1022
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 1: get some sort of you can't you know, you can't

1023
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,960
Speaker 1: cash in fulfillment right or prestige or whatever that doesn't

1024
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 1: pay the rent, that doesn't put you know, groceries on

1025
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 1: your table um that sort of thing. And so you know,

1026
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 1: I think we're beginning to see this thing resurgence. And

1027
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 1: it started with teachers and I know, for and teachers

1028
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 1: and nurses have been out fighting like hell for the

1029
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 1: past like five years, and it's beginning to kind of

1030
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 1: like spark other kinds of organizing outside of outside of

1031
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 1: the care work areas, and a lot of this stuff

1032
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 1: was It's funny how it was kind of like predicted

1033
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: by occupy and like revolt of the carrying classes. Someone

1034
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 1: who wrote a really cool book that just came out,

1035
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 1: David Graeber, who was talking about, like, why is it

1036
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 1: that we're seeing all these people who are out in

1037
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 1: the streets like during occupy, who are like social workers

1038
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 1: and nurses and teachers and all this stuff there There's

1039
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 1: something going on here, and I think that so you'll

1040
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 1: see places where organizing conditions are easier because the pressure

1041
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: on especially care workers right now is immense in a

1042
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:49,439
Speaker 1: way that it isn't as immense other places. But look

1043
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 1: at for those like when you're thinking about unions and

1044
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 1: whether to do build a union at your workplace or

1045
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: do some sort of collective organizing your workplace, do you

1046
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:03,120
Speaker 1: have the dynamics where you guys are can the boss

1047
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 1: shut down your, uh, your your workplace and move it

1048
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 1: like ten miles without completely destroying their like their business right,

1049
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 1: And so you know, we've seen strikes happen in grocery stores,

1050
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 1: um and uh Massachusetts there was a really like uh

1051
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: pretty well publicized grocery worker strike and apparently there was

1052
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 1: like internal documents got released to like shareholders about how

1053
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 1: that was like one of the most like it was

1054
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: like for a month in the winter or three weeks,

1055
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 1: and they said they lost like of customers refused across

1056
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 1: the picket line. I mean, and I think we're thinking

1057
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 1: it's like getting to the point where you can go

1058
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 1: on strike. It's a lot, it's a process, and it

1059
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 1: takes a lot of work, and I think that people

1060
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 1: underestimate what that looks like. Hence we see hashtag general

1061
01:03:55,040 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: strike things all the time. Um. But like when you

1062
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:02,160
Speaker 1: get there, I think that we're at a point now

1063
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 1: where people have a lot more sympathy for workers, and

1064
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 1: workers have become more visible in the way that they

1065
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:11,439
Speaker 1: weren't before. Like the essential workers over the past year

1066
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 1: and a half have been the only workers that sometimes

1067
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 1: people will see, right, So you'll see things also like

1068
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: you have you know, Amazonians United, which is a union

1069
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 1: that's organizing, but they're trying to organize something called a

1070
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 1: solidarity union. So they're not, you know, at least the

1071
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 1: ones here in Chicago, and I think some of them

1072
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 1: in New York. And this may be changing. Things are

1073
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 1: always shifting around. But for a long for a while,

1074
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 1: through like the pandemic, they were organizing on a like

1075
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: in contrast to the best sumer uh Amazon campaign. Sorry,

1076
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 1: there was a a business union tried to organize a

1077
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: union in Alabama, Investment Alabama at an Amazon warehouse, and

1078
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 1: there was a lot of like media attention to that.

1079
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 1: Democratic politicians, we're paying attention to it, you know, Joe

1080
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 1: Biden said, I support the right of workers to choose

1081
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:07,919
Speaker 1: to have the choice. Stabby union some really milk toast

1082
01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 1: bullshit and a lot of celebrities showing up. And what

1083
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 1: wasn't happening was you weren't seeing a lot of evidence

1084
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 1: that the workers themselves were very excited about the union.

1085
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 1: And it turned out that that campaign failed. Um, whereas

1086
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 1: workers at Amazonian's united up here, like in Chicago, and

1087
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 1: granted it's a very different organizing environment in Illinois than

1088
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 1: it is in Alabama. UM, they haven't been focusing on

1089
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 1: getting contract. They've been focusing on getting work changes like

1090
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 1: They're like, we want to have water, like we need

1091
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: water breaks, and so they would they have these stand

1092
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 1: up meetings at the beginning of every shift, and they

1093
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 1: had coordinated where you have you know, thirty of your

1094
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 1: co workers all say we're not starting until we get water.

1095
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 1: And then management panics because they're not used to that

1096
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 1: kind of demand. They're used to We're going to have

1097
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 1: a campaign. Then we can you know, mess with votes

1098
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing and make people afraid. Collective

1099
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: action overcomes fear, right, So when you have collective action,

1100
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 1: even through a regular like a more regular conventional union campaign,

1101
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:23,919
Speaker 1: those collective actions are what needs to successful unions. So like, um, so,

1102
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:26,479
Speaker 1: you know, they'd say, we aren't starting the shift until

1103
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 1: we get water, and then all of a sudden a

1104
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 1: manager disappears and then comes back with palates full of water, right,

1105
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:33,919
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, people are like, I'm gonna

1106
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 1: have the drink water before I start, like all together,

1107
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 1: and then they go off and do their thing, and

1108
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, things like that build the power

1109
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 1: of the union to the point where they shut down

1110
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 1: that warehouse. But then Amazonian United popped up in the

1111
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:53,360
Speaker 1: three new warehouses that they step in Chicago. So it's

1112
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: like when you build that kind of collective power and

1113
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:59,919
Speaker 1: people feel like this is how you get things, then

1114
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 1: it's hard to repress. Right. It's one thing we're like,

1115
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 1: we lost an election, why did we even bother? It's

1116
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: another thing where like no, we wont like all this,

1117
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 1: like this, that, and the other thing like we got

1118
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 1: you know, like our regular schedules fixed. We got like

1119
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:16,959
Speaker 1: water on our shifts. We got this. You know, that's

1120
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 1: what gets people into the mindset that they can change things.

1121
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 1: And I think this is the thing that a lot

1122
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 1: of people don't get. It's it's like, the difficult part

1123
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 1: isn't getting people to agree that things are fucked up

1124
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:30,439
Speaker 1: at your workplace. Most people understand that things are sucked

1125
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 1: up in their workplace. Difficult part isn't saying that, like, well,

1126
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:36,760
Speaker 1: this is a solution, right. The difficult part is getting

1127
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:40,280
Speaker 1: people to understand that collective action is the only way

1128
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 1: to solve the problems, right even within unionized workplaces. Getting

1129
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 1: your coworkers to understand that if we don't do this

1130
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:50,919
Speaker 1: as a collective, we will fail. And so like when

1131
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:59,480
Speaker 1: there was a like the first successful private hospital union

1132
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 1: drive North Carolina popped off early. UM. Throughout that campaign,

1133
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:12,200
Speaker 1: they were constantly like demonstrations of collective power. We're gonna

1134
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 1: do a vigil. How many people are gonna show up

1135
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 1: to the visual We're gonna all walk around stickers saying

1136
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:20,800
Speaker 1: like safe staffing saves lives or like you know, um,

1137
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:23,880
Speaker 1: patients over profits. That sort of stuff and building that

1138
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 1: kind of collective power together is what gets you. UM,

1139
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:32,639
Speaker 1: It's what gets you a successful Like that's what builds

1140
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:36,760
Speaker 1: a union. Fundamentally, union is UM. There's the legal thing

1141
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:38,639
Speaker 1: and then there's the real thing, and the real thing

1142
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:41,920
Speaker 1: is only as powerful as people are willing to fight

1143
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:45,679
Speaker 1: for and build that kind of collective power together. When

1144
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 1: nurses were on straight and I talked a lot about

1145
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 1: nurses because I know a lot about nurses, but like

1146
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 1: you know, or like you know in um in Iowa,

1147
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: when the John Deere strike happened, people were out on

1148
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 1: the picket lines and people were ready to get hit

1149
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,599
Speaker 1: by cars to like stop scabs from coming like crossing

1150
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 1: the picket line. And if you're not willing to do

1151
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And I'm not saying that you

1152
01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 1: need to put your body on the line for things,

1153
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 1: but you do need to be willing to draw outside

1154
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 1: the lines. Right, there's the law and then there's what

1155
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 1: you can get people to do. And you will be

1156
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:18,760
Speaker 1: surprised when people start moving. They move fast and they

1157
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,680
Speaker 1: get really riled up, like this, funk, this, this is

1158
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:25,320
Speaker 1: what we're gonna do. And sometimes unions try and like

1159
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 1: bottle that energy up um or you know, if you're

1160
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:32,719
Speaker 1: in a good union, you use that energy to fix things.

1161
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:36,439
Speaker 1: So I think that's kind of where land on all

1162
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:40,040
Speaker 1: this stuff. It's like be aware of like the pitfalls

1163
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:43,720
Speaker 1: of what organizing at work means. Everyone has a right

1164
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:46,640
Speaker 1: to organize at work everywhere in this country. If you

1165
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 1: get fired for like for organizing, you can fight that

1166
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:53,679
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Yeah, it's federally protected, like it's

1167
01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:55,519
Speaker 1: this is this is a federal government thing, like you know,

1168
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 1: this is this is this is what we got in

1169
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,760
Speaker 1: exchange for everything else is like like this is you know,

1170
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 1: like this this is what we got in exchange of

1171
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 1: putting our guns down. Is that Like yeah, the the

1172
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 1: the actual Feds will be like, no, you can't do this. Yeah,

1173
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:16,320
Speaker 1: I mean and sometimes that doesn't sound like fold consolation

1174
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:20,400
Speaker 1: and it doesn't always work. But and I guess this

1175
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:21,960
Speaker 1: is the other thing is there are people who are like,

1176
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 1: this is how we're gonna, you know, we're gonna when

1177
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 1: socialism is everyone's in the union. And I guess, like

1178
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,439
Speaker 1: my take on it is is this is how we

1179
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 1: build all the networks and get the skills and all

1180
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:37,679
Speaker 1: the necessary things to be prepared to do bigger stuff

1181
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 1: down the road. So when we when workers are talking

1182
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,759
Speaker 1: to each other across like you know, at when Chicago,

1183
01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 1: when Chicago teachers went on strike, they didn't just go

1184
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,800
Speaker 1: on strike as the teachers. They also talked to the

1185
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:53,600
Speaker 1: They lined up their strike to go out as the

1186
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:56,559
Speaker 1: same as education like the school workers who are in

1187
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:58,640
Speaker 1: s C I you and they went out at the

1188
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:03,320
Speaker 1: same time, um, in order to incre improve the power

1189
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:05,519
Speaker 1: of the strike, because the more workers who are out,

1190
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 1: less able the bosses are to like like to undermine

1191
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:13,280
Speaker 1: the boss either with people scabbing on each other or whatever.

1192
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:15,840
Speaker 1: And I think it's just like and like that's the

1193
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 1: point of our labor council is like when like the

1194
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 1: grad workers at Universe Chicago go on strike, we got

1195
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 1: teachers out or we got well, there were teachers from

1196
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 1: CTU out on those picket lines. There were nurses and

1197
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 1: anew on those picket lines, and we were doing everything

1198
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 1: we could to communicate to each other because like in

1199
01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 1: my work, it doesn't matter that I'm a nurse and

1200
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:40,280
Speaker 1: you're a secretary. We have the same boss. We have

1201
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:43,679
Speaker 1: the same problems a lot of the times. And so

1202
01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 1: I think people people want to do the thing, which

1203
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:50,400
Speaker 1: is to all have the glorious general strike that like

1204
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:53,519
Speaker 1: overthrows capitalism or whatever or fixes all the problems that

1205
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:57,680
Speaker 1: your work. But you know, starting everyone forgets all the

1206
01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 1: necessary intermediate steps to get to that point. And sometimes

1207
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 1: it means just get the union in the door in

1208
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:05,600
Speaker 1: the first place, because like at a campaign I was

1209
01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:09,639
Speaker 1: a part of here in Chicago where my University Chicago

1210
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 1: bought a non union hospital that was out in the community.

1211
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:16,000
Speaker 1: Just getting in there, they were able to expose like

1212
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:20,919
Speaker 1: basically an entire hospital wide scheme of like racial racist

1213
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 1: like practices around raises and compensation. And that is like

1214
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 1: that first step and then fixing that right, because you

1215
01:12:29,479 --> 01:12:32,800
Speaker 1: don't want to have like white worse nurses making more

1216
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:36,479
Speaker 1: than black nurses and black percent more than like did

1217
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 1: immigrant nurses like Filipino or like Mexican nurses, get everyone

1218
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:43,360
Speaker 1: on the same page so that you're fighting together instead

1219
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 1: of fighting each other. And you know, those are those

1220
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 1: first steps that you take. And then and then you

1221
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 1: start reaching out to people on other other workplaces or

1222
01:12:53,479 --> 01:12:57,880
Speaker 1: other work areas and build that kind of militancy across

1223
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:00,639
Speaker 1: unions so that you can support each other. So maybe

1224
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:03,400
Speaker 1: a secondary strike is illegal right now, but that doesn't

1225
01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:06,439
Speaker 1: mean that you don't have, you know, teamsters who won't

1226
01:13:06,479 --> 01:13:09,160
Speaker 1: cross the picket line, right you know, how do you

1227
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:11,640
Speaker 1: go out and make it or you can build that

1228
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:16,720
Speaker 1: solidarity so that like in Buffalo and the UM the

1229
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 1: c w A nurses went on strike and they want

1230
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:23,479
Speaker 1: pretty impressive things around staffing ratios. They literally had other

1231
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 1: unions going out and picketing board members of their hospitals

1232
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 1: businesses and like getting really really like aggressive with that

1233
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 1: sort of stuff. So I think that I think that

1234
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:40,599
Speaker 1: people need to just big takeaway is is the biggest

1235
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 1: barrier to any of this stuff, is just getting people

1236
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:47,599
Speaker 1: to believe that collective action is possible and they can

1237
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:51,960
Speaker 1: get you wins, and then making sure that you take

1238
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 1: your time and be patient and understand that there's going

1239
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 1: to be losses. But in the grand scheme of things.

1240
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:05,479
Speaker 1: Don't don't don't mistake what looks like a setback when

1241
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:08,360
Speaker 1: it's actually a victory for like a victory like for

1242
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:12,519
Speaker 1: a real like a defeat, and um, and talk with

1243
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:15,040
Speaker 1: people like that's what they hate that, Like, bosses hate

1244
01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 1: it when we're talking with each other and talk to

1245
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:18,639
Speaker 1: people you're not comfortable with. That's the That's the other

1246
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:21,600
Speaker 1: thing is that people are very nervous to talk to

1247
01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:23,920
Speaker 1: people like. It's always funny when you run into people

1248
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 1: who are ra ra like unions, ra ra like socialism,

1249
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 1: YadA YadA YadA, and they don't talk to their co workers, right,

1250
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:32,439
Speaker 1: and your co workers are the people you're gonna be

1251
01:14:32,479 --> 01:14:35,599
Speaker 1: around for maybe some years, and that's where you spend

1252
01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 1: a huge chunk of your time. And like, but you

1253
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:41,439
Speaker 1: don't know what's going on, they're like, oh, they're all hostile.

1254
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:42,800
Speaker 1: They don't want to know anything, they don't want to

1255
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:46,799
Speaker 1: do anything. Funny thing is is that oftentimes the most

1256
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:49,960
Speaker 1: people who seem very skeptical and anti union can be

1257
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:52,920
Speaker 1: flipped and sometimes those people become the best, like the

1258
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:55,840
Speaker 1: most dedicated people to the union. It also means that

1259
01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 1: you're going to talk to people you disagree with. Like,

1260
01:14:58,120 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 1: there was a Trump dude who was on like the

1261
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:02,759
Speaker 1: argating committee for the like our last strike. He fucking

1262
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:04,559
Speaker 1: loved that thing. He was like, we're going on strike,

1263
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:07,920
Speaker 1: but you know, it's also a union full of black women,

1264
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:09,920
Speaker 1: and he shut the funk up when you know it

1265
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:12,240
Speaker 1: wasn't like, you know, being racist and ship, but you

1266
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:14,200
Speaker 1: know you're gonna be with those people. And part of

1267
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:15,639
Speaker 1: the thing is is that it's about how we're all

1268
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:19,720
Speaker 1: moving together rather than making sure everyone is on the

1269
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:22,240
Speaker 1: same page for every single thing, because the biggest thing

1270
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:26,600
Speaker 1: is the collective action and building that collective power, and

1271
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:32,280
Speaker 1: hopefully the collective power is hopefully the collective power outweighs.

1272
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:36,479
Speaker 1: It's if you stand firm on principles like anti racism

1273
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:40,760
Speaker 1: and fighting against discrimination and misogyny that sort of thing,

1274
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:43,240
Speaker 1: it actually builds the power of the union. I think

1275
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:44,640
Speaker 1: that's the other thing is that people are like, oh,

1276
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:47,120
Speaker 1: I don't you know, like, you know, working class people

1277
01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:49,920
Speaker 1: are all racist or reactionary or whatever. So I'm going

1278
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:51,720
Speaker 1: to do that and that's how I'm gonna get that's

1279
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:53,840
Speaker 1: my inn And it's like, I think there are a

1280
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:57,000
Speaker 1: lot of people who like they really don't like, you know,

1281
01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,639
Speaker 1: they don't like being around loud, racist assholes or people

1282
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:04,200
Speaker 1: who you know, say slurs, like especially if it's like,

1283
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 1: I mean, you can make the arguments like this is

1284
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:09,200
Speaker 1: that's their way of dividing us. Our goal is to

1285
01:16:09,240 --> 01:16:14,120
Speaker 1: be together. And historically speaking, the one thing that's done

1286
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 1: the most too fight working class racism is union organizing. Yeah. So,

1287
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:24,920
Speaker 1: And I think also, like you know, in terms of

1288
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:28,840
Speaker 1: like building something that's actually you know, durable and powerful

1289
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 1: on top of sort of just the division. I mean,

1290
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:33,479
Speaker 1: you know, even when it becomes stuff like transphobia. Right,

1291
01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:37,439
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, if if you can convince people

1292
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:42,080
Speaker 1: to fight like first like fight for the person next

1293
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 1: to them, right, you know, I mean this is this

1294
01:16:43,320 --> 01:16:44,720
Speaker 1: is the thing that people like said a lot during

1295
01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:48,800
Speaker 1: the Dreean the Burning campaign. But it was like, you know,

1296
01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 1: if people like, yeah, like, if you can get someone

1297
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:55,160
Speaker 1: to uh fight like fight for the person next to

1298
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:57,280
Speaker 1: you in a concrete way in the workplace, in a

1299
01:16:57,320 --> 01:17:00,439
Speaker 1: way that's actually real for something that doesn't directly aff them,

1300
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:04,560
Speaker 1: you think, you know a A it is just like

1301
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:07,480
Speaker 1: the the amount of power that you've built there is incredible.

1302
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:12,120
Speaker 1: And then be also Okay, I forgot where I was

1303
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:14,760
Speaker 1: going with that, Daniel, please cut that. Hold on, hold on,

1304
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:16,720
Speaker 1: I can kind of build off. Let me just say this,

1305
01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:21,599
Speaker 1: My personal experience is that queer women run the labor

1306
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:27,000
Speaker 1: movement and that like and that if you think that

1307
01:17:27,040 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 1: people who have been bullied from the day they like

1308
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:32,600
Speaker 1: stepped into like a into a kindergarten aren't going to

1309
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:37,679
Speaker 1: be the people who are most equipped to fight bullshit,

1310
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:42,120
Speaker 1: bullying from a boss or injustice or bullshit you're fucking like, like,

1311
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:44,880
Speaker 1: just get the funk out because you haven't been in

1312
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 1: a union and you don't know what you know. I mean,

1313
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:52,960
Speaker 1: you like the like people, unions are at their best

1314
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:56,639
Speaker 1: when they incorporate, you know, all, like when they are

1315
01:17:56,640 --> 01:17:59,639
Speaker 1: fighting for everybody, because what a boss can get away

1316
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:02,720
Speaker 1: with with the weakest person, that's what they'll do to

1317
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 1: all of us if they get the chance. And so

1318
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:07,280
Speaker 1: I think that there's this idea that's like, oh, we're

1319
01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:10,200
Speaker 1: going to set we're not going to we're going to

1320
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:12,880
Speaker 1: ignore this or that sort of thing. It's like, you know,

1321
01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:16,559
Speaker 1: that's when people like, you know, people will turn away

1322
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:18,800
Speaker 1: from unions as they feel like they're not being listened

1323
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:20,799
Speaker 1: to or taken seriously, and you don't know what people's

1324
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:23,639
Speaker 1: like identities are just because you see how they look.

1325
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:27,080
Speaker 1: And so I think that it's real important for us

1326
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:29,280
Speaker 1: to understand that if we're going to fight these fights,

1327
01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:32,639
Speaker 1: we need to do so with the understanding that it's everybody,

1328
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:36,880
Speaker 1: and that the working class is a giant, multi racial

1329
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:40,760
Speaker 1: conglomeration of every identity in this country. Um, and that

1330
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 1: the more marginal your identity is, the more useful having

1331
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:48,280
Speaker 1: a union is to like solving your problems. Like I said,

1332
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 1: like racist racist compensation practices, there was no way that

1333
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:55,360
Speaker 1: was going to get fixed, Like it wasn't even uncovered.

1334
01:18:55,360 --> 01:18:57,439
Speaker 1: People didn't understand that it was happening until like the

1335
01:18:57,479 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 1: union got in. Doesn't mean there are other ways of fixing,

1336
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:02,400
Speaker 1: but it's one of the one of the most powerful

1337
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:05,800
Speaker 1: ways to fix things. I think that people just like

1338
01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 1: don't understand because they don't have experience. Because they don't

1339
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:13,760
Speaker 1: have an experience, they end up with they end up

1340
01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:16,519
Speaker 1: with misconceptions about what they're going to get into, and

1341
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:18,960
Speaker 1: then they get disappointed. And I think the reality, I mean,

1342
01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:21,920
Speaker 1: I think that the reality is not as bad as

1343
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:24,920
Speaker 1: sometimes it seems. But also you gotta go into all

1344
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:27,559
Speaker 1: this ship with open eyes. And I think that there's

1345
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:30,400
Speaker 1: and that's the other thing one of the fun things.

1346
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:32,320
Speaker 1: Maybe this will make it into the podcast. I don't know,

1347
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:34,960
Speaker 1: but um, one of the fun things is always like

1348
01:19:35,040 --> 01:19:38,240
Speaker 1: hanging out with like if you like every workplace has

1349
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:41,920
Speaker 1: like its lefties just about, and like hanging out with

1350
01:19:41,960 --> 01:19:46,360
Speaker 1: the lefties who just can't get their brains wrapped around

1351
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:48,640
Speaker 1: the ship that you need to have a union. I

1352
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:50,599
Speaker 1: think that there's like this idea that's like, oh, I'm

1353
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:53,240
Speaker 1: gonna talk to my friend. They're like they're like they

1354
01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:55,439
Speaker 1: say they're a communists, so that the and then that

1355
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:59,559
Speaker 1: all those people do not always but they're they're sitting there.

1356
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,040
Speaker 1: It's like talking a bunch of ship about like the union.

1357
01:20:02,040 --> 01:20:03,559
Speaker 1: They're a bunch of sellouts is or that, and it's

1358
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:05,600
Speaker 1: like literally it's the only thing you're gonna do to

1359
01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:08,559
Speaker 1: get your like to fix the problem. And you're just like,

1360
01:20:08,600 --> 01:20:10,160
Speaker 1: we're just trying to get this problem fixed. Can we

1361
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:12,479
Speaker 1: just set aside what you think needs to happen like

1362
01:20:13,120 --> 01:20:15,400
Speaker 1: that you guys talked about it. You're like Spartacus League

1363
01:20:15,400 --> 01:20:19,000
Speaker 1: meeting or whatever, like, oh, this isn't a real strike,

1364
01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:21,599
Speaker 1: Like we're not going out until like for like you know,

1365
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:24,160
Speaker 1: three months. And it's like, you know, it's like the

1366
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:29,559
Speaker 1: sort of thing where um sometimes or oftentimes, and I

1367
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,120
Speaker 1: think it's because a lot of people kind of pick

1368
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 1: up their politics almost like an aesthetic as opposed to

1369
01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:37,880
Speaker 1: like a thing that like is about like fixing the

1370
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:43,000
Speaker 1: problems in their lives. And sometimes even I'm like, you know,

1371
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:45,240
Speaker 1: like this is the problem that I face is like

1372
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:49,200
Speaker 1: like shit is real like for a lot of people,

1373
01:20:49,280 --> 01:20:51,360
Speaker 1: and you can sit there and talk about this or that,

1374
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:55,640
Speaker 1: and like you're you know, you think that things. You know,

1375
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:58,439
Speaker 1: you've got this perfect ideal vision of what things should be,

1376
01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:00,840
Speaker 1: and then you've got this kind of imperfect thing in

1377
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:04,280
Speaker 1: front of you that is even though it's imperfect, it's

1378
01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:06,559
Speaker 1: basically what you've got. And so it's like you've got

1379
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:08,920
Speaker 1: to kind of you've got to work with what you

1380
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:11,240
Speaker 1: have and fix it up and make it the best

1381
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:14,040
Speaker 1: that you think it can be. UM, but also understand,

1382
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:16,559
Speaker 1: because it's an organization full of people, that it's not

1383
01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:19,000
Speaker 1: going to be perfect every time. And yeah, maybe your

1384
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:21,160
Speaker 1: union is going to do some liberal ship, you know,

1385
01:21:21,280 --> 01:21:23,599
Speaker 1: and you're gonna and that's going to annoy you, but

1386
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:26,840
Speaker 1: you know, like, um, those people are still going to

1387
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:28,840
Speaker 1: show up on the picket line if you're like, if

1388
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:32,439
Speaker 1: you're organized and you're good and like, you know, that's

1389
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:35,479
Speaker 1: it's not the end of the world that your union

1390
01:21:35,520 --> 01:21:38,400
Speaker 1: isn't perfect. Um, but you've got to do everything you

1391
01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:40,439
Speaker 1: can to do your best to make it better because

1392
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 1: if you don't, then then liberals will do whatever they're

1393
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:45,559
Speaker 1: gonna do, or conservatives will do whatever they're gonna do,

1394
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,760
Speaker 1: and then they will like furtter away this thing. Like

1395
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:53,559
Speaker 1: you can destroy a union if you aren't engaged. Like

1396
01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:56,840
Speaker 1: a union can be destroyed by people who think that

1397
01:21:57,120 --> 01:21:58,800
Speaker 1: you know, they're just like I just want to get

1398
01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:00,840
Speaker 1: my rays and like go home them and like, you know,

1399
01:22:00,880 --> 01:22:04,320
Speaker 1: if people's can main concern is like their healthcare or

1400
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:07,960
Speaker 1: like you know, that hour of prep time before they

1401
01:22:07,960 --> 01:22:09,960
Speaker 1: start their shift or whatever should you know, start their

1402
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:14,120
Speaker 1: school day or whatever. Um, you know, a union can

1403
01:22:14,160 --> 01:22:16,320
Speaker 1: like dissolve out from underneath you and people are like,

1404
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:18,040
Speaker 1: why is no one showing up to this thing? It's

1405
01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:21,360
Speaker 1: because you didn't talk to people and find out what

1406
01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:23,160
Speaker 1: it is. I think that's the other thing. It's like listen,

1407
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:24,760
Speaker 1: like there's this idea that you're gonna get up and

1408
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:27,040
Speaker 1: give a big speech and get everyone really excited about

1409
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:29,599
Speaker 1: your about like being in a union. But the main

1410
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:32,240
Speaker 1: thing is listening to people and listening to people who

1411
01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:35,799
Speaker 1: are critics. You know, your coworkers who have complaints aren't

1412
01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:37,920
Speaker 1: like people that you should ignore. Those are people who

1413
01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:41,000
Speaker 1: need to listen to because those are people who they've

1414
01:22:41,040 --> 01:22:44,160
Speaker 1: got I mean, everyone's got legitimate problems with how you know,

1415
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:47,519
Speaker 1: work is happening. And like just because someone's like, you know,

1416
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:51,599
Speaker 1: union is like, you know, trash, Like then find out

1417
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:53,519
Speaker 1: why they think it's trash and then try and be

1418
01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:55,040
Speaker 1: like I want to try and fix out what can

1419
01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:56,640
Speaker 1: we do to fix it together? That sort of thing.

1420
01:22:57,560 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 1: I remember when when I was working, So I worked

1421
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:05,559
Speaker 1: at like maintenance and a county facility for a while,

1422
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 1: and you know, so I was like a like I

1423
01:23:08,439 --> 01:23:10,559
Speaker 1: was like I was like a summer higher basically, and

1424
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:13,120
Speaker 1: so we we weren't in the union, but like everyone

1425
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:14,679
Speaker 1: we were working for was in the union, and they

1426
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:17,200
Speaker 1: all like, you know, these are old ex construction worker

1427
01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:22,519
Speaker 1: guys and you know, like they're in the union. But

1428
01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:25,080
Speaker 1: like I remember that we show these conversations that were

1429
01:23:25,120 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 1: like okay, so we have a union meeting this week,

1430
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:28,680
Speaker 1: just like do you want to be the person who

1431
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 1: tries to talk about raising wages? And it was like

1432
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:33,960
Speaker 1: everyone was just like no, and you know, people you know,

1433
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:35,800
Speaker 1: like these guys are like very right wing and they

1434
01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:37,400
Speaker 1: were just sort of like piste off all the time.

1435
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 1: But it was interesting because the thing they were piste

1436
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:43,200
Speaker 1: off all the time about was that, like, you know,

1437
01:23:43,439 --> 01:23:47,599
Speaker 1: their union didn't do anything like the union like they

1438
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:49,360
Speaker 1: they're they they're like they they were. They were basically

1439
01:23:49,439 --> 01:23:53,559
Speaker 1: constantly annoyed that like the union didn't like the the

1440
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:55,639
Speaker 1: the union wasn't fighting for pay raises us and wasn't

1441
01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:58,240
Speaker 1: sort of fighting And I think that was, you know,

1442
01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:01,559
Speaker 1: an example of how this stuff sort of just fails

1443
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:04,599
Speaker 1: if if people aren't like if people don't feel like

1444
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:09,920
Speaker 1: they can actually do something like itself. I mean, and

1445
01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:12,559
Speaker 1: they call it service unionism. There's this idea that like

1446
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:16,280
Speaker 1: um or like like that a business union's job is

1447
01:24:16,320 --> 01:24:18,080
Speaker 1: to kind of serve you and you kind of like

1448
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:21,480
Speaker 1: they do all the work. Like one of the complaints

1449
01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:25,200
Speaker 1: that some people who are not big fans of our

1450
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:28,599
Speaker 1: union our hospital is that like, oh well, other other

1451
01:24:28,760 --> 01:24:34,080
Speaker 1: unions have lawyers negotiate the contract for you. And when

1452
01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:37,439
Speaker 1: we negotiate, we have a room full of nurses who

1453
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:41,200
Speaker 1: are doing the who are doing the negotiations, and the

1454
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:45,160
Speaker 1: goal is to have it be as transparent as possible,

1455
01:24:45,280 --> 01:24:47,280
Speaker 1: and like the idea that you're going to hand over

1456
01:24:47,840 --> 01:24:51,240
Speaker 1: negotiations to a lawyer and somehow get a better deal

1457
01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:56,920
Speaker 1: than than a room full of of the actual workers.

1458
01:24:56,920 --> 01:24:59,040
Speaker 1: And it's funny because we have our bargaining team and

1459
01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:02,840
Speaker 1: then like will periodically do something called open bargaining because

1460
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:04,800
Speaker 1: it's the thing that bosses hate. It's like they want

1461
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:08,040
Speaker 1: to make a deal like with a door shut right, um,

1462
01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:11,800
Speaker 1: But there's no reason why a union has to do that. Like,

1463
01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:14,479
Speaker 1: you can invite whoever you want to your bargaining. You

1464
01:25:14,520 --> 01:25:17,280
Speaker 1: can invite community members to your bargaining if you feel

1465
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:21,040
Speaker 1: like you're man it could because management behind closed doors

1466
01:25:21,040 --> 01:25:23,439
Speaker 1: will say all kinds of things, and you know, they'll

1467
01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:26,200
Speaker 1: they'll trash talk everyone involved and they'll you know, and

1468
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:30,960
Speaker 1: they will make absurd demands about you know, it's like, oh,

1469
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:32,559
Speaker 1: you're all gonna take a pay cut, you know, on

1470
01:25:32,640 --> 01:25:35,760
Speaker 1: this contract, that sort of thing, and they hate it.

1471
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:39,320
Speaker 1: They absolutely hate it when like workers actually show up

1472
01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:46,720
Speaker 1: to these things, and so, um, I think that understanding that, like,

1473
01:25:48,200 --> 01:25:51,080
Speaker 1: I think there's this idea that like some people are

1474
01:25:51,160 --> 01:25:53,519
Speaker 1: big on like we have to be kind of like

1475
01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:57,519
Speaker 1: secretive to like get the best deal, and like we

1476
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,920
Speaker 1: shouldn't be like we shouldn't be transparent with everyone about

1477
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:03,920
Speaker 1: what's going on because that's how like because then they'll

1478
01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:06,920
Speaker 1: figure out some way to counter us. But in my experience,

1479
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:11,880
Speaker 1: my understanding is that the more transparent your union is,

1480
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:17,800
Speaker 1: the more involved people get, and the more able people are,

1481
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:19,400
Speaker 1: the more willing people are to put their time and

1482
01:26:19,520 --> 01:26:21,320
Speaker 1: energy into it. Because that's what comes down to is

1483
01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 1: like people out to like everyone's working and busy and

1484
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:26,760
Speaker 1: their life life is hard and sucks, and so like

1485
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:29,640
Speaker 1: do you have time to dedicate to show up to

1486
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:32,559
Speaker 1: like talk to like if you why would you go

1487
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:35,120
Speaker 1: to a union meeting if when you raise the concern

1488
01:26:35,280 --> 01:26:38,519
Speaker 1: like we want higher wages, and like the union like

1489
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:42,800
Speaker 1: staffer doesn't care if you get higher wages because they're

1490
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:45,280
Speaker 1: like while we're getting our union dudes, and like what

1491
01:26:45,280 --> 01:26:49,600
Speaker 1: what then do we care? Right, that's like a huge problem.

1492
01:26:49,680 --> 01:26:51,559
Speaker 1: And the part of the thing is that those problems

1493
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:54,000
Speaker 1: don't get solved if they if they exist, because they

1494
01:26:54,280 --> 01:26:57,559
Speaker 1: that definitely exists. And and a lot of unions, more unions,

1495
01:26:57,600 --> 01:27:02,719
Speaker 1: and uh than not if the workers don't get organized together.

1496
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:07,200
Speaker 1: Like right, we just saw a an election within the

1497
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:16,519
Speaker 1: Teamsters International where uh the halfa uh Jimmy Haffa Jr.

1498
01:27:16,840 --> 01:27:19,040
Speaker 1: One of the half a kids was like president of

1499
01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:22,280
Speaker 1: the union and was this like not doing a great

1500
01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 1: job and um, and like there was a rank and

1501
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:31,080
Speaker 1: file like push to get that guy uh unelected, you know,

1502
01:27:31,120 --> 01:27:33,439
Speaker 1: and put it replaced with a rank and file worker

1503
01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:37,280
Speaker 1: who wants to put actual time and resources into organizing.

1504
01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:40,040
Speaker 1: You know. Like there's nothing sadder than a than like

1505
01:27:40,120 --> 01:27:44,880
Speaker 1: watching a union campaign failed because the union clearly is

1506
01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:47,960
Speaker 1: phoning it in, Like that's happened. I've seen it happen,

1507
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:52,560
Speaker 1: not inside my union, but in other unions. And uh

1508
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:55,599
Speaker 1: and I mean like at my workplace, there's several unions

1509
01:27:55,600 --> 01:27:58,040
Speaker 1: and I've seen I've seen a failed campaign and it's

1510
01:27:58,080 --> 01:28:00,920
Speaker 1: like obvious, like there's uh, you know, I'm not I

1511
01:28:00,920 --> 01:28:04,240
Speaker 1: don't co sign everything that someone like Jaye mccavalary. I

1512
01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:07,519
Speaker 1: think that's a share McCay clary has to say. She wrote,

1513
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:10,559
Speaker 1: like no shortcuts. Um, I don't sign off and everything

1514
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:12,760
Speaker 1: she has to say, but she has some really insightful things.

1515
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:16,599
Speaker 1: It's like if you're not organizing to win, like you'll fail,

1516
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:18,920
Speaker 1: and like you have to take this so seriously. And

1517
01:28:18,960 --> 01:28:21,519
Speaker 1: that's where like I'll say that, like, if you've got

1518
01:28:21,520 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 1: a choice between I'm going to put time into a

1519
01:28:23,479 --> 01:28:28,080
Speaker 1: political political campaign versus a union campaign, You're going to

1520
01:28:28,160 --> 01:28:29,880
Speaker 1: get way more bang for your buck. You're gonna get

1521
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:33,040
Speaker 1: so much more experience, You're gonna get like a durable

1522
01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:36,280
Speaker 1: organization that's going to be around for years if you

1523
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:40,760
Speaker 1: put that time into a union campaign. Because like, imagine

1524
01:28:41,320 --> 01:28:45,920
Speaker 1: winning an election right, um, except the politician you're running

1525
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:50,240
Speaker 1: against is the incumbent and they can um basically drag

1526
01:28:50,320 --> 01:28:53,080
Speaker 1: every one of their constituents into like a meeting and

1527
01:28:53,120 --> 01:28:55,800
Speaker 1: tell them how awful you are all the time and

1528
01:28:55,880 --> 01:28:59,040
Speaker 1: lie and say whatever they want, and then they can,

1529
01:28:59,160 --> 01:29:01,960
Speaker 1: you know, do all kinds of tricks to like basically

1530
01:29:02,040 --> 01:29:05,080
Speaker 1: dismantle your campaign. So I guess like the thing that

1531
01:29:05,120 --> 01:29:07,200
Speaker 1: I would say is that like if you if you

1532
01:29:07,400 --> 01:29:10,320
Speaker 1: do it the right way and you actually win one

1533
01:29:10,320 --> 01:29:12,719
Speaker 1: of those campaigns, you're going to come out way ahead

1534
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:14,920
Speaker 1: and sort of understanding like you have to talk to people.

1535
01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:16,559
Speaker 1: You have to be super organized. You have to know

1536
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:21,200
Speaker 1: what people's issues are in their different targeting units. UM.

1537
01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:24,559
Speaker 1: You have to find people like part of like it's

1538
01:29:24,600 --> 01:29:27,320
Speaker 1: successful campaigns. I've been part of literally going on a

1539
01:29:27,360 --> 01:29:31,000
Speaker 1: search to go find like the people that need to

1540
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:34,439
Speaker 1: be like signing cards and stuff. And you just have

1541
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:36,960
Speaker 1: to be a very good listener, ready to talk and

1542
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:40,080
Speaker 1: listen and hear what people have to say, um, and

1543
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:44,439
Speaker 1: then turn that um information into knowledge and knowledge and

1544
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:49,840
Speaker 1: power um and UM. I think that if you pull

1545
01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:53,400
Speaker 1: it off, you have done something substantially harder than say,

1546
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:56,160
Speaker 1: like winning a school board election or something like that.

1547
01:29:56,360 --> 01:29:59,439
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it really is. It's like taking

1548
01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:02,640
Speaker 1: like those kind of skills that you would use to

1549
01:30:02,720 --> 01:30:05,880
Speaker 1: like win some sort of small municipal election, and it's

1550
01:30:05,920 --> 01:30:09,160
Speaker 1: like exponentially more hard because the rules are just so

1551
01:30:09,280 --> 01:30:14,040
Speaker 1: tilted against you winning. So if you are serious about it,

1552
01:30:14,080 --> 01:30:17,400
Speaker 1: if you're serious about changing the world, if you can't

1553
01:30:17,520 --> 01:30:20,360
Speaker 1: like someone, uh yeah, I think Murray Buckschen once said,

1554
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:23,439
Speaker 1: if you can't run for dog catcher, you probably shouldn't

1555
01:30:23,439 --> 01:30:26,840
Speaker 1: be talking about revolution, you know. But I think that

1556
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:30,120
Speaker 1: probably more you know, more appropriate to be like if

1557
01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:32,600
Speaker 1: you can't win a union election, you probably shouldn't be

1558
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:35,720
Speaker 1: talking about revolution because even if you want to do

1559
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:39,240
Speaker 1: all the things, you need to have the ability, the skills,

1560
01:30:39,400 --> 01:30:42,760
Speaker 1: the ability I mediate conflict, getting everyone on board to

1561
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:45,920
Speaker 1: do the collective action that like you would need to

1562
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:48,800
Speaker 1: do to successfully kind of like carry out. Like you know,

1563
01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:52,280
Speaker 1: it's one thing to have the the grand insurrection. It's

1564
01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:54,639
Speaker 1: the other thing to carry it forward and keep carrying

1565
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:56,559
Speaker 1: it to the point where you're over the line you've

1566
01:30:56,680 --> 01:31:00,280
Speaker 1: completely changed the world, right, So and I think that

1567
01:31:00,400 --> 01:31:03,960
Speaker 1: and so I just think that like UM and I

1568
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:06,720
Speaker 1: think that's similar things go with, like you know, tenant organizing,

1569
01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:11,120
Speaker 1: community organizing. There's various types of organizing that use those

1570
01:31:11,120 --> 01:31:14,439
Speaker 1: similar skills that you get in like a union campaign. UM.

1571
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:18,680
Speaker 1: And it's just a very different type of UM politics

1572
01:31:18,960 --> 01:31:22,800
Speaker 1: and organization and skills that you would get from you know,

1573
01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:25,840
Speaker 1: showing up for your local justice down and you know,

1574
01:31:25,880 --> 01:31:28,240
Speaker 1: like knocking on the doors of strangers you'll never you

1575
01:31:28,280 --> 01:31:30,479
Speaker 1: may never speak to you again. You know, when you're

1576
01:31:30,479 --> 01:31:32,519
Speaker 1: talking with your coworkers, those are your coworkers. They are

1577
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:35,599
Speaker 1: going to be there until you're you know, you retire

1578
01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:39,640
Speaker 1: or you're fired. Or you quit. So anyway, that's I

1579
01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:41,960
Speaker 1: guess that's another good takeaway I think from all this.

1580
01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:45,639
Speaker 1: So one thing I wanted to make sure to get

1581
01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:49,599
Speaker 1: to is, so I think there's a lot of people

1582
01:31:50,240 --> 01:31:53,960
Speaker 1: who are listening to this who working non union workplaces

1583
01:31:54,080 --> 01:31:57,439
Speaker 1: and want to try to start this, and I wanted

1584
01:31:57,479 --> 01:32:01,519
Speaker 1: to know what would be your recommendations for them. You know, how,

1585
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:04,160
Speaker 1: how how do you start this process? What does this

1586
01:32:04,240 --> 01:32:08,760
Speaker 1: look like? In what kinds of conversations should you be

1587
01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:13,800
Speaker 1: having with your coworkers? Yeah, for sure. So, um, I

1588
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:15,920
Speaker 1: think one of the first things that I think a

1589
01:32:15,920 --> 01:32:20,200
Speaker 1: lot of people, a lot of people don't understand is

1590
01:32:20,240 --> 01:32:23,560
Speaker 1: that there's an amount of risk and stuff too organizing

1591
01:32:23,640 --> 01:32:26,400
Speaker 1: and that you're like, first off, like you should be

1592
01:32:26,600 --> 01:32:29,880
Speaker 1: chill and like not like running around telling everyone you

1593
01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:31,479
Speaker 1: want a union, because that's a great way to lose

1594
01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:35,040
Speaker 1: your job. Um. I think the thing is is that

1595
01:32:35,320 --> 01:32:38,920
Speaker 1: you build relationships and find out what's happening, like just

1596
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:43,360
Speaker 1: like you know, take from your experience and figure out

1597
01:32:43,439 --> 01:32:46,559
Speaker 1: what's like in uh, like, man, it really sucks, like

1598
01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:49,200
Speaker 1: I got like I got screwed over on my vacation

1599
01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:52,680
Speaker 1: requests or like I you know, man, our raises were

1600
01:32:52,680 --> 01:32:54,680
Speaker 1: really shitty this year, and I heard like, you know,

1601
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:58,120
Speaker 1: boss talking about like how much like like they've made

1602
01:32:58,120 --> 01:33:02,200
Speaker 1: so much money that sort of thing. Um, So I

1603
01:33:02,240 --> 01:33:06,400
Speaker 1: think that it comes down to you have to be

1604
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:10,200
Speaker 1: it's kind of like a combination of like like an

1605
01:33:10,240 --> 01:33:15,080
Speaker 1: investigative reporter and like someone who is just really good

1606
01:33:15,120 --> 01:33:17,840
Speaker 1: at like talking to people and just kind of like

1607
01:33:17,920 --> 01:33:22,800
Speaker 1: understanding what's making them tick and understanding also that maybe

1608
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:25,280
Speaker 1: you're not the person who's going to get everyone on board,

1609
01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:29,280
Speaker 1: but that finding other people who every like I think

1610
01:33:29,320 --> 01:33:32,160
Speaker 1: the big thing is like who's like the most respected

1611
01:33:32,240 --> 01:33:35,400
Speaker 1: person on like in your work area that sort of thing,

1612
01:33:35,479 --> 01:33:38,559
Speaker 1: who like they know that the unit, or they know

1613
01:33:38,640 --> 01:33:41,200
Speaker 1: the work area, they've been there the longest, they have

1614
01:33:41,360 --> 01:33:43,880
Speaker 1: like the most experience. People look up to them. There

1615
01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:45,880
Speaker 1: are the people who train other people that sort of thing.

1616
01:33:46,439 --> 01:33:49,160
Speaker 1: Those are the people who everyone looks to when it

1617
01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:51,920
Speaker 1: comes down to these sorts of things. And you know,

1618
01:33:52,040 --> 01:33:54,519
Speaker 1: just you don't have to be friends with everybody, but

1619
01:33:54,600 --> 01:33:57,200
Speaker 1: like doing it's I think it's really good to just

1620
01:33:57,360 --> 01:34:01,840
Speaker 1: like two be open to you listening to everybody that

1621
01:34:01,920 --> 01:34:04,720
Speaker 1: you work with and finding out what it is that's

1622
01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:10,320
Speaker 1: really going on. Yes, I've noticed like in a lot

1623
01:34:10,320 --> 01:34:14,120
Speaker 1: of places that I've worked, like the bosses often don't

1624
01:34:14,120 --> 01:34:18,439
Speaker 1: really know what's going on either, like they and I

1625
01:34:18,439 --> 01:34:20,400
Speaker 1: think that that that's something they can give you if

1626
01:34:20,439 --> 01:34:23,479
Speaker 1: you understand how the process works and who's doing what

1627
01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:26,680
Speaker 1: and what people like need, that gives you like a

1628
01:34:26,760 --> 01:34:30,800
Speaker 1: big advantage over the bosses who just have no idea

1629
01:34:30,840 --> 01:34:37,320
Speaker 1: what's going on. Which I think, yeah, I think it's

1630
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:40,800
Speaker 1: very it's very normal for bosses to really not know

1631
01:34:40,840 --> 01:34:44,639
Speaker 1: what's happening, and there's always someone who does like figuring

1632
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:48,679
Speaker 1: out the people who really know how things work are

1633
01:34:48,800 --> 01:34:52,200
Speaker 1: like those are like the those are the people who, um,

1634
01:34:52,360 --> 01:34:55,400
Speaker 1: you want to be talking with and figuring out like

1635
01:34:55,920 --> 01:35:01,720
Speaker 1: where they kind of stand on things, and um, you know,

1636
01:35:01,760 --> 01:35:03,720
Speaker 1: I think like the first step is like just having

1637
01:35:03,760 --> 01:35:07,880
Speaker 1: good relationships and people trusting you and you know, you know,

1638
01:35:08,000 --> 01:35:10,920
Speaker 1: if you know, Like, I don't think everyone needs to

1639
01:35:10,960 --> 01:35:13,120
Speaker 1: be a superstar workers sort of thing to be a

1640
01:35:13,160 --> 01:35:16,439
Speaker 1: good union organizer. But like they always say, it's like

1641
01:35:16,479 --> 01:35:19,880
Speaker 1: people who have the most problems oftentimes are people that

1642
01:35:19,960 --> 01:35:22,640
Speaker 1: aren't don't make great organizers because people don't see them

1643
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:28,240
Speaker 1: as people to follow. But um, um, but I think

1644
01:35:28,240 --> 01:35:30,800
Speaker 1: that it's important to just like talk with your to

1645
01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:32,880
Speaker 1: like just figure out what's going on first. That's your

1646
01:35:32,920 --> 01:35:35,160
Speaker 1: first step. Figure out what's going on? What are the

1647
01:35:35,200 --> 01:35:38,479
Speaker 1: things I mean? And you can come around together in

1648
01:35:39,040 --> 01:35:41,160
Speaker 1: you know, and like and how do you get people

1649
01:35:41,240 --> 01:35:44,360
Speaker 1: outside of the workplace? So you talk like how do you,

1650
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:47,000
Speaker 1: like do you have like a group chat or signal

1651
01:35:47,080 --> 01:35:49,760
Speaker 1: chat or like a What's app chat or Facebook group?

1652
01:35:50,120 --> 01:35:51,720
Speaker 1: And where do you just like start kind of like

1653
01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:54,000
Speaker 1: and you know, be very care be careful about who's

1654
01:35:54,040 --> 01:35:56,599
Speaker 1: involved and just kind of like low key, just like

1655
01:35:56,640 --> 01:36:00,439
Speaker 1: start talking with folks and identifying to people who who

1656
01:36:00,760 --> 01:36:03,519
Speaker 1: are outside of your work area, who know people Like

1657
01:36:03,600 --> 01:36:05,680
Speaker 1: sometimes it's you know, you'll talk to people and they're like,

1658
01:36:05,720 --> 01:36:07,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about a union, but you

1659
01:36:07,760 --> 01:36:10,440
Speaker 1: can be like, do you know anyone who cares? Who

1660
01:36:10,200 --> 01:36:14,120
Speaker 1: who has said anything about unions before? And so talking

1661
01:36:14,160 --> 01:36:17,320
Speaker 1: to people to find out who they know. Like these

1662
01:36:17,320 --> 01:36:19,120
Speaker 1: are all this kind of like crucial first steps to

1663
01:36:19,200 --> 01:36:22,000
Speaker 1: like organizing. And I think the thing is is that,

1664
01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:26,479
Speaker 1: like there have been times where you'll have a non

1665
01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:31,040
Speaker 1: union workplace where if the people in a particular area

1666
01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:33,840
Speaker 1: of of like a of like a hospital or like

1667
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:37,360
Speaker 1: a workplace wherever we'll do some collective thing that gets

1668
01:36:37,360 --> 01:36:39,720
Speaker 1: some sort of results. So I think it's always like

1669
01:36:39,760 --> 01:36:43,439
Speaker 1: it's like, let's get people to sign off on a

1670
01:36:43,479 --> 01:36:47,880
Speaker 1: petition about like you know, like if of your coworkers

1671
01:36:49,040 --> 01:36:51,479
Speaker 1: are unhappy with like races or something like that. Like

1672
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:53,719
Speaker 1: the more people that are involved in those first steps,

1673
01:36:54,720 --> 01:36:58,680
Speaker 1: the more likely it is that it won't result in

1674
01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:03,240
Speaker 1: retaliation and like you'll end up getting some sort of victory. Um.

1675
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:07,280
Speaker 1: So I guess like the thing that I would say

1676
01:37:07,360 --> 01:37:11,559
Speaker 1: is just like be be ready for like people to

1677
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:15,840
Speaker 1: look at greet you a skepticism because like it's it's hard,

1678
01:37:16,479 --> 01:37:19,120
Speaker 1: it's a hard thing to do, and um, always just

1679
01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:22,200
Speaker 1: be finding out what is bothering people and then look

1680
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:24,800
Speaker 1: at little things that you can do to kind of

1681
01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:28,200
Speaker 1: like flex power, like to like collectively flex your power.

1682
01:37:29,120 --> 01:37:33,439
Speaker 1: And um, it can be as small as like everyone

1683
01:37:33,520 --> 01:37:37,160
Speaker 1: bringing up the same issue at like a work meeting, right,

1684
01:37:37,439 --> 01:37:40,400
Speaker 1: Like if you and it could be like, hey, let's

1685
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:42,320
Speaker 1: talk about this at this work meeting. This is and

1686
01:37:42,360 --> 01:37:44,600
Speaker 1: if we all say something together like we're going to

1687
01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:50,120
Speaker 1: be fine. Right. Um, So, like starting with those first steps,

1688
01:37:50,200 --> 01:37:52,240
Speaker 1: I think it is the first like thing Like the

1689
01:37:52,280 --> 01:37:55,120
Speaker 1: first thing is know what's going on, build relationships, be

1690
01:37:55,160 --> 01:37:58,080
Speaker 1: a trustworthy person, Like you can't be like the unit

1691
01:37:58,120 --> 01:38:01,120
Speaker 1: gossip or the the work a gossip that like knows

1692
01:38:01,280 --> 01:38:03,439
Speaker 1: that's in everyone's business or stirring up stuff and be

1693
01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:07,400
Speaker 1: successful at this UM. But if you are, you know,

1694
01:38:07,479 --> 01:38:10,640
Speaker 1: if you're someone that people like trust or look to

1695
01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:12,840
Speaker 1: or you know, like a person that people are like

1696
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:15,919
Speaker 1: they help solve our problems, those are the people who

1697
01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:18,599
Speaker 1: I mean, you're going to be well set to begin

1698
01:38:18,720 --> 01:38:21,360
Speaker 1: to kind of take the steps on that and then

1699
01:38:21,439 --> 01:38:23,439
Speaker 1: you know, as you kind of build those kind of

1700
01:38:23,479 --> 01:38:28,240
Speaker 1: like build that organization step by step. No, no union

1701
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:33,960
Speaker 1: UM is going to invest the time in a union

1702
01:38:34,040 --> 01:38:36,599
Speaker 1: campaign if it's just you and like to other people

1703
01:38:36,880 --> 01:38:39,280
Speaker 1: like you need like you need to get a room.

1704
01:38:39,320 --> 01:38:40,960
Speaker 1: They're always say like, well, if you get a room

1705
01:38:40,960 --> 01:38:43,280
Speaker 1: full of people together, I'm willing to talk to them.

1706
01:38:43,320 --> 01:38:45,360
Speaker 1: And that's kind of the thing. And you know, Zoom

1707
01:38:45,400 --> 01:38:49,400
Speaker 1: and stuff has actually made that a little bit easier UM,

1708
01:38:49,439 --> 01:38:51,240
Speaker 1: which in some ways can be a weakness because you

1709
01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:53,760
Speaker 1: end up with like it's a lot less commitment to

1710
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:55,720
Speaker 1: show up to a Zoom meeting that it is to

1711
01:38:56,800 --> 01:38:59,559
Speaker 1: UM to show up at like a bar or a

1712
01:38:59,560 --> 01:39:03,639
Speaker 1: place to work UM or a church or wherever it's

1713
01:39:03,680 --> 01:39:07,200
Speaker 1: like a good like like neutral, safe place and people

1714
01:39:07,240 --> 01:39:09,000
Speaker 1: feel like they can be honest with each other about

1715
01:39:09,000 --> 01:39:11,680
Speaker 1: what's going on. UM. But at the same time, just

1716
01:39:11,800 --> 01:39:19,599
Speaker 1: like being the more the the more people you get

1717
01:39:19,640 --> 01:39:22,200
Speaker 1: on board with the thing, the more likely that it

1718
01:39:22,240 --> 01:39:26,479
Speaker 1: will succeed. You'll attract support from like an actual union

1719
01:39:26,880 --> 01:39:29,599
Speaker 1: that m is able to help you if you decide

1720
01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:31,559
Speaker 1: that that's how you want to do it, or if

1721
01:39:31,600 --> 01:39:34,120
Speaker 1: that makes sense in a legal context. And so I

1722
01:39:34,240 --> 01:39:37,120
Speaker 1: just like always like start small, figure out the small things,

1723
01:39:37,760 --> 01:39:40,360
Speaker 1: be willing to do like collective action to get little

1724
01:39:40,360 --> 01:39:44,360
Speaker 1: small victories. And that's a great way to get started,

1725
01:39:44,680 --> 01:39:47,920
Speaker 1: I think, and then like really do like sleuthing and research,

1726
01:39:48,000 --> 01:39:51,120
Speaker 1: like figure out how things actually work. UM. That's like

1727
01:39:51,800 --> 01:39:54,360
Speaker 1: you know, that was a problem with the best Market

1728
01:39:54,400 --> 01:39:57,799
Speaker 1: campaign down in uh down in Alabama with those Amazon

1729
01:39:57,840 --> 01:40:00,599
Speaker 1: workers is they didn't know how many people worked at

1730
01:40:00,600 --> 01:40:03,240
Speaker 1: that facility, and then all of a sudden, they're like, oh, yeah,

1731
01:40:03,280 --> 01:40:05,320
Speaker 1: we're going to include like an extra thousand people on

1732
01:40:05,400 --> 01:40:10,640
Speaker 1: this vote, you know, like six weeks out, and you know,

1733
01:40:11,160 --> 01:40:12,519
Speaker 1: like I don't want to I don't want to take

1734
01:40:12,520 --> 01:40:14,200
Speaker 1: a dump on the people who did that. But like,

1735
01:40:14,720 --> 01:40:17,080
Speaker 1: if you don't know that there's like another thousand people

1736
01:40:17,920 --> 01:40:20,640
Speaker 1: or you don't have like everyone on board, you're not

1737
01:40:20,680 --> 01:40:24,040
Speaker 1: going to succeed. So no, everything you can as you're

1738
01:40:24,080 --> 01:40:26,160
Speaker 1: going in and do everything you can to find out

1739
01:40:26,320 --> 01:40:29,439
Speaker 1: things or make buddies with the friends buddies of the

1740
01:40:29,439 --> 01:40:32,760
Speaker 1: people who are gonna you know, know these things and

1741
01:40:33,160 --> 01:40:35,439
Speaker 1: you know, and then support each other, like it means

1742
01:40:35,439 --> 01:40:39,200
Speaker 1: showing up and like someone. Sometimes what we do during

1743
01:40:39,240 --> 01:40:44,080
Speaker 1: these campaigns is someone will will have the contact for

1744
01:40:44,200 --> 01:40:46,800
Speaker 1: someone who's interested, and then your job is to go

1745
01:40:46,880 --> 01:40:50,080
Speaker 1: and find that person where they work and talk with

1746
01:40:50,120 --> 01:40:51,720
Speaker 1: them and then talk with them while they talk with

1747
01:40:51,760 --> 01:40:54,280
Speaker 1: their coworkers, or back up them while they're talking to

1748
01:40:54,320 --> 01:40:56,679
Speaker 1: the co workers, because they trust their their co workers,

1749
01:40:56,720 --> 01:41:00,360
Speaker 1: trust their coworker. You know, you're a random stranger, you know,

1750
01:41:00,439 --> 01:41:02,120
Speaker 1: And then like don't be afraid to say, I don't know,

1751
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:04,599
Speaker 1: but I will find out. Right, there's like this there's

1752
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:07,080
Speaker 1: this pressure I think to like have all the answers

1753
01:41:07,320 --> 01:41:10,479
Speaker 1: to like whatever people's questions are. And I think that

1754
01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:16,960
Speaker 1: it's like, um, I think that it's like I think

1755
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:22,080
Speaker 1: that it's important to be honest when you don't understand,

1756
01:41:22,120 --> 01:41:23,920
Speaker 1: but then do the work of figuring out the answers

1757
01:41:23,920 --> 01:41:27,479
Speaker 1: for people. Um, and I think people respect that. And

1758
01:41:27,720 --> 01:41:29,679
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people who are vocally against

1759
01:41:30,280 --> 01:41:33,200
Speaker 1: these sorts of things up front, it's because they don't know.

1760
01:41:33,760 --> 01:41:35,760
Speaker 1: And if you you know, you're like, no, we've got

1761
01:41:35,760 --> 01:41:39,200
Speaker 1: a right to do this, or like, you know, the

1762
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:42,040
Speaker 1: the you know, a management will say things like managion

1763
01:41:42,120 --> 01:41:46,519
Speaker 1: will say things like oh you will, um, you know,

1764
01:41:46,880 --> 01:41:50,040
Speaker 1: the union will get in between our relationship with you know,

1765
01:41:50,120 --> 01:41:53,400
Speaker 1: with you and us, right, And the point is is

1766
01:41:53,400 --> 01:41:55,519
Speaker 1: that like, well, the union is us where the cod

1767
01:41:55,600 --> 01:41:57,800
Speaker 1: where the people doing it, like everyone running. You can't

1768
01:41:57,880 --> 01:42:00,080
Speaker 1: run a union if you don't have a bunch of

1769
01:42:00,200 --> 01:42:03,559
Speaker 1: people involved from the workplace. And it's like and making

1770
01:42:03,600 --> 01:42:07,040
Speaker 1: sure that people who are um, those people who end

1771
01:42:07,120 --> 01:42:09,840
Speaker 1: up being kind of like spokespersons for everyone else, are

1772
01:42:09,880 --> 01:42:12,759
Speaker 1: people that folks trust and they have like a good

1773
01:42:12,880 --> 01:42:18,120
Speaker 1: like grasp of what everyone wants and yeah, so yeah,

1774
01:42:18,160 --> 01:42:19,800
Speaker 1: and then like you know, don't get bogged down in

1775
01:42:19,840 --> 01:42:22,920
Speaker 1: the legal ship. Like you know, collective action really is

1776
01:42:23,000 --> 01:42:25,960
Speaker 1: like your most powerful tool, um, all the other kind

1777
01:42:25,960 --> 01:42:28,959
Speaker 1: of like the grievances and that's some stuff. It's important

1778
01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:30,960
Speaker 1: and you can't let it go. But it's also like

1779
01:42:31,600 --> 01:42:35,559
Speaker 1: it's designed to kind of grind people down. So um,

1780
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:38,920
Speaker 1: you know, the more collective action you take, like, the

1781
01:42:39,000 --> 01:42:40,960
Speaker 1: more likely it is that you're going to be successful

1782
01:42:41,000 --> 01:42:44,960
Speaker 1: and keep people engaged and excited. Yeah, going back to

1783
01:42:45,000 --> 01:42:48,200
Speaker 1: what you were saying earlier, this might mind up being

1784
01:42:48,320 --> 01:42:51,880
Speaker 1: last episode depending on where this breaks down time wise,

1785
01:42:51,920 --> 01:42:55,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think it's also it's just this is

1786
01:42:55,240 --> 01:42:58,360
Speaker 1: going to take time and a lot of work, and

1787
01:42:59,240 --> 01:43:04,400
Speaker 1: I think it's it's it's important age to understand going

1788
01:43:04,439 --> 01:43:06,200
Speaker 1: in that this is a long and difficult process. It's

1789
01:43:06,200 --> 01:43:10,000
Speaker 1: not gonna happen overnight and be that it's a lot

1790
01:43:10,040 --> 01:43:12,559
Speaker 1: of work, Like you have to there's there's a lot

1791
01:43:12,600 --> 01:43:14,400
Speaker 1: of things that you have to do. There's a lot

1792
01:43:14,439 --> 01:43:16,160
Speaker 1: of sort of logistics, there's a lot of talking, there's

1793
01:43:16,200 --> 01:43:19,720
Speaker 1: a lot of like negotiating, there's a lot of sort

1794
01:43:19,720 --> 01:43:23,400
Speaker 1: of I mean just just even I don't know, before

1795
01:43:23,439 --> 01:43:25,799
Speaker 1: anything gets off the ground, you have to spend enormous

1796
01:43:25,840 --> 01:43:29,040
Speaker 1: amounts of time and effort doing stuff. And that's that's

1797
01:43:29,080 --> 01:43:32,400
Speaker 1: that's like it's just the reality of it. So yeah,

1798
01:43:32,400 --> 01:43:35,120
Speaker 1: there's there's no there's there's no there's there's there's there's

1799
01:43:35,160 --> 01:43:38,200
Speaker 1: no magic bullet, like there's no sort of yeah, there's

1800
01:43:38,240 --> 01:43:40,840
Speaker 1: there's no just like one thing you can do that

1801
01:43:40,920 --> 01:43:43,679
Speaker 1: like magically makes a U need appear. It's a bunch

1802
01:43:43,720 --> 01:43:47,040
Speaker 1: of people coming together and like fighting for it for

1803
01:43:47,080 --> 01:43:49,760
Speaker 1: a long time. Yeah, I think that that's like the

1804
01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:53,240
Speaker 1: main thing is like you're it's it's a cliche, that's

1805
01:43:53,280 --> 01:43:57,840
Speaker 1: like it's a marathon not as prints. Um. Sometimes I

1806
01:43:57,840 --> 01:43:59,840
Speaker 1: hate when people say that ship, but it's true, like

1807
01:44:00,040 --> 01:44:04,080
Speaker 1: you you really do have like, um, you're in it

1808
01:44:04,160 --> 01:44:06,000
Speaker 1: for the long haul, and a lot of times it's

1809
01:44:06,040 --> 01:44:10,360
Speaker 1: like your people are ready to do these things when

1810
01:44:10,720 --> 01:44:13,280
Speaker 1: they're like this is like I don't want you know,

1811
01:44:13,400 --> 01:44:15,160
Speaker 1: it's one thing to pop up in a place and

1812
01:44:15,240 --> 01:44:17,000
Speaker 1: be there for like you know, six months, be like

1813
01:44:17,040 --> 01:44:20,040
Speaker 1: I need a we need a union, right, No one

1814
01:44:20,080 --> 01:44:22,200
Speaker 1: you know that works at that place, trust you. They

1815
01:44:22,240 --> 01:44:24,640
Speaker 1: don't know who you are, Like they're not going to

1816
01:44:24,720 --> 01:44:27,720
Speaker 1: follow you to do anything or you know, or take

1817
01:44:27,800 --> 01:44:31,599
Speaker 1: you you know, follow your lead. Um, it's the people

1818
01:44:31,640 --> 01:44:34,280
Speaker 1: who are like I'm gonna be here, this is my

1819
01:44:34,479 --> 01:44:36,120
Speaker 1: this is where I want to be, and you know,

1820
01:44:36,200 --> 01:44:38,240
Speaker 1: this is a I want to be here for the

1821
01:44:38,280 --> 01:44:40,360
Speaker 1: next two years and think of it as like a

1822
01:44:40,479 --> 01:44:43,240
Speaker 1: long term investment in the quality of your life and

1823
01:44:43,240 --> 01:44:47,599
Speaker 1: the quality of life at your workplace, because to win,

1824
01:44:47,800 --> 01:44:51,160
Speaker 1: you have to be sticking around, you know. And I

1825
01:44:51,200 --> 01:44:54,800
Speaker 1: think that's where it gets tough with people who are

1826
01:44:54,920 --> 01:44:59,519
Speaker 1: in like precarious types of employment or different types of

1827
01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:01,920
Speaker 1: and that's you have to start looking at alternate ways

1828
01:45:01,920 --> 01:45:05,679
Speaker 1: to organize because maybe you're a precarious worker who does

1829
01:45:06,280 --> 01:45:09,439
Speaker 1: maybe you drive, like for a rideshare service, or maybe

1830
01:45:09,520 --> 01:45:12,479
Speaker 1: you like do delivery or like you know, um for

1831
01:45:12,560 --> 01:45:14,880
Speaker 1: an app or whatever, you delivered for an app. And

1832
01:45:14,920 --> 01:45:18,320
Speaker 1: I think the thing is is like that sort of

1833
01:45:18,360 --> 01:45:21,680
Speaker 1: thing because of how and you know, these aren't like

1834
01:45:21,800 --> 01:45:24,200
Speaker 1: new forms of work. This is actually really old forms

1835
01:45:24,200 --> 01:45:26,439
Speaker 1: of work that are just like been like rebranded by

1836
01:45:26,479 --> 01:45:30,400
Speaker 1: tech bros who have decided like they're like they're like

1837
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:34,280
Speaker 1: they're great geniuses like rebranding the kind of like precarious

1838
01:45:34,320 --> 01:45:37,240
Speaker 1: work that was really like prominent like throughout the nineteenth century.

1839
01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:39,640
Speaker 1: And it's like, so then what do you do is

1840
01:45:39,680 --> 01:45:43,320
Speaker 1: you come up with ways to organize people regardless of

1841
01:45:43,479 --> 01:45:45,840
Speaker 1: like oh, like I'm you know, I work for this,

1842
01:45:46,160 --> 01:45:48,559
Speaker 1: like I work for Lift or I work for Uber,

1843
01:45:48,600 --> 01:45:50,800
Speaker 1: and it kind of switches back and forth. Like the

1844
01:45:50,800 --> 01:45:52,880
Speaker 1: thing is, it's like that's when you start talking with

1845
01:45:53,640 --> 01:45:58,519
Speaker 1: you know, rideshare drivers across different like apps or whatever,

1846
01:45:58,640 --> 01:46:00,280
Speaker 1: and then you come up with a way to work

1847
01:46:00,400 --> 01:46:04,920
Speaker 1: collectively um to to change sorts of things. And sometimes

1848
01:46:05,000 --> 01:46:07,600
Speaker 1: that's it's gonna be it's gonna be tough, you know,

1849
01:46:08,360 --> 01:46:10,000
Speaker 1: And that's when I kind of look at those that

1850
01:46:10,080 --> 01:46:11,600
Speaker 1: sort of thing is like this is where it's a

1851
01:46:11,720 --> 01:46:15,200
Speaker 1: learning experience and maybe I don't get everything I want,

1852
01:46:15,240 --> 01:46:17,439
Speaker 1: but you know, it's really important. I mean, it's like

1853
01:46:17,479 --> 01:46:20,840
Speaker 1: building these networks that people who care about like what

1854
01:46:20,880 --> 01:46:23,759
Speaker 1: they're working conditions are like, and you can pull things

1855
01:46:23,760 --> 01:46:26,400
Speaker 1: off maybe unexpectedly that you didn't expect. We're going to

1856
01:46:26,479 --> 01:46:30,840
Speaker 1: be like the thing, you know, like you may start

1857
01:46:30,880 --> 01:46:32,920
Speaker 1: with something that looks like a union drive and then

1858
01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:37,320
Speaker 1: you end up with something that looks like very different.

1859
01:46:37,320 --> 01:46:38,880
Speaker 1: It could you know, could go in all sorts of

1860
01:46:38,920 --> 01:46:43,200
Speaker 1: different directions. So um you know there and look outside

1861
01:46:43,240 --> 01:46:45,280
Speaker 1: of the US, you know their countries where like in

1862
01:46:45,479 --> 01:46:49,000
Speaker 1: UM I think that there have been some pretty successful

1863
01:46:49,120 --> 01:46:55,040
Speaker 1: delivery app or going to organizing in London UM and

1864
01:46:55,840 --> 01:46:59,400
Speaker 1: you know, I think that to a certain extent, like

1865
01:47:00,080 --> 01:47:05,000
Speaker 1: formal extent, US unions have not been very successful in

1866
01:47:05,120 --> 01:47:10,320
Speaker 1: organizing those workers because it doesn't it's hard to do

1867
01:47:11,120 --> 01:47:15,479
Speaker 1: from the extant business union model, and so it's like

1868
01:47:15,760 --> 01:47:17,800
Speaker 1: it's one of those things where you know it used

1869
01:47:17,840 --> 01:47:21,920
Speaker 1: to be you know, they would have like you know,

1870
01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:24,040
Speaker 1: the fight would be instead of trying to get like

1871
01:47:24,200 --> 01:47:30,840
Speaker 1: workers are like a contract at a particular like work site,

1872
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:32,880
Speaker 1: you'd set up a hiring hall, like the i w

1873
01:47:33,080 --> 01:47:36,479
Speaker 1: W would set up hiring halls UM and like you know,

1874
01:47:36,640 --> 01:47:38,799
Speaker 1: for lumberjacks and that sort of thing, and those workers

1875
01:47:38,800 --> 01:47:42,519
Speaker 1: are always precarious, right, but they would go trying set

1876
01:47:42,600 --> 01:47:45,280
Speaker 1: up so that like people would only take jobs out

1877
01:47:45,280 --> 01:47:47,240
Speaker 1: of the hiring hall, and that's how they would control

1878
01:47:47,280 --> 01:47:51,160
Speaker 1: their like their work. And I think that more unions needed.

1879
01:47:51,200 --> 01:47:55,639
Speaker 1: And part of this is like if there's any union

1880
01:47:55,680 --> 01:47:57,800
Speaker 1: people out there who are in staff and that sort

1881
01:47:57,840 --> 01:47:59,759
Speaker 1: of thing, is like there needs to be a serious

1882
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:03,679
Speaker 1: examination of how we do unions in this country. And

1883
01:48:03,760 --> 01:48:06,240
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people inside unions understand that,

1884
01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:09,080
Speaker 1: but no one has quite done it yet in a

1885
01:48:09,120 --> 01:48:12,080
Speaker 1: way that's effective and I think that we really do

1886
01:48:12,160 --> 01:48:14,360
Speaker 1: need to kind of re evaluate that sort of stuff.

1887
01:48:14,400 --> 01:48:18,439
Speaker 1: So just you know, as someone who's going into like

1888
01:48:18,479 --> 01:48:21,000
Speaker 1: a new sort of organizing campaign, just understand that like

1889
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:26,599
Speaker 1: getting the union contract isn't necessarily the end gold end

1890
01:48:26,600 --> 01:48:28,320
Speaker 1: goal is to try and get your boss to do

1891
01:48:28,439 --> 01:48:31,240
Speaker 1: things differently so that you're not like miserable at work.

1892
01:48:31,400 --> 01:48:33,880
Speaker 1: And that might look like a contract, or it might

1893
01:48:33,920 --> 01:48:37,679
Speaker 1: look like you know, a a one day like uh,

1894
01:48:37,920 --> 01:48:39,760
Speaker 1: you know, app strike or something like that. You know,

1895
01:48:39,800 --> 01:48:42,040
Speaker 1: you'll you'll figure you've got to figure out how it's

1896
01:48:42,040 --> 01:48:47,160
Speaker 1: going to work. Like with you know, in healthcare, you know,

1897
01:48:47,400 --> 01:48:50,120
Speaker 1: there's this idea that like, you know, there's the gold

1898
01:48:50,160 --> 01:48:52,200
Speaker 1: standard of the strike where you strike until we win

1899
01:48:52,240 --> 01:48:53,800
Speaker 1: and we're out for like you know, like two or

1900
01:48:53,840 --> 01:48:56,559
Speaker 1: three months. Well, the problem is that there's an industry

1901
01:48:56,560 --> 01:49:00,360
Speaker 1: of scab nurses and health care workers where at any

1902
01:49:00,360 --> 01:49:03,360
Speaker 1: point they can bring in people to replace enough of

1903
01:49:03,400 --> 01:49:06,200
Speaker 1: you that a hospital can maintain operations. And unless you're

1904
01:49:06,280 --> 01:49:10,519
Speaker 1: super organized like they were up in um Buffalo, uh

1905
01:49:10,960 --> 01:49:14,599
Speaker 1: with c W A like, and have a big network

1906
01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:17,040
Speaker 1: of people and you're ready to go to like you know,

1907
01:49:17,680 --> 01:49:21,640
Speaker 1: like picket board members houses and that sort of stuff. Um,

1908
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:23,960
Speaker 1: those long term strikes can end and defeat where you

1909
01:49:24,040 --> 01:49:27,080
Speaker 1: end up with you know, you're all replaced with scabs,

1910
01:49:27,160 --> 01:49:30,519
Speaker 1: and and it sucks and it's happened, and then you

1911
01:49:30,600 --> 01:49:32,240
Speaker 1: gotta I guess you gotta learn from it, you know,

1912
01:49:32,360 --> 01:49:36,760
Speaker 1: like we've there was a famous strike in Minnesota with

1913
01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:40,840
Speaker 1: healthcare workers and they went out and they were out

1914
01:49:40,880 --> 01:49:43,000
Speaker 1: for months and months, and there are people on you know,

1915
01:49:43,080 --> 01:49:45,080
Speaker 1: going to the super kitchen to feed their kids and stuff,

1916
01:49:45,120 --> 01:49:49,640
Speaker 1: and they lost right. And so my union tends to

1917
01:49:49,680 --> 01:49:51,680
Speaker 1: do one day strikes, but instead of just being at

1918
01:49:51,680 --> 01:49:55,280
Speaker 1: one hospital, we organized multiple hospitals across the country so

1919
01:49:55,320 --> 01:49:57,759
Speaker 1: that it soaks up all the like the scat drives

1920
01:49:57,800 --> 01:50:01,479
Speaker 1: up right, scabs, and it really like that. I think

1921
01:50:01,640 --> 01:50:05,479
Speaker 1: ideas like intermittent strikes we're actually a really powerful tool.

1922
01:50:05,560 --> 01:50:08,080
Speaker 1: Back when you know, back when it was the c

1923
01:50:08,200 --> 01:50:09,680
Speaker 1: I oh, and it was like we're going to just

1924
01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:12,680
Speaker 1: stop working until you fix this problem. Um, And that's

1925
01:50:12,680 --> 01:50:14,519
Speaker 1: why they made them illegal. And it takes a lot

1926
01:50:14,560 --> 01:50:16,040
Speaker 1: of work to pull them off. But if you can't

1927
01:50:16,040 --> 01:50:17,800
Speaker 1: pull them off, that could be an effective way. And

1928
01:50:17,840 --> 01:50:20,800
Speaker 1: if you're not in a union, maybe getting people down

1929
01:50:20,920 --> 01:50:23,759
Speaker 1: for a one day like work stoppage at your work

1930
01:50:23,960 --> 01:50:26,759
Speaker 1: or even you know, maybe it's like we're not starting

1931
01:50:26,760 --> 01:50:29,320
Speaker 1: our shift, right. I've been in the room. I've been

1932
01:50:29,320 --> 01:50:30,680
Speaker 1: in the room where it's like, no, we're not going

1933
01:50:30,760 --> 01:50:34,080
Speaker 1: out to take that assignment until like we get our

1934
01:50:34,120 --> 01:50:38,120
Speaker 1: staff situation set up like fixed. And you know, sometimes

1935
01:50:38,160 --> 01:50:43,960
Speaker 1: it's just those collective actions are you know, it's not

1936
01:50:44,040 --> 01:50:46,240
Speaker 1: the end, Like there's no end. I'll be all one

1937
01:50:46,280 --> 01:50:49,160
Speaker 1: size fits all solution. Just be ready to kind of

1938
01:50:49,200 --> 01:50:52,360
Speaker 1: like explore what it means, get all the resources you can.

1939
01:50:52,400 --> 01:50:55,680
Speaker 1: There's groups like there's still like the Industrial Workers of

1940
01:50:55,680 --> 01:50:59,240
Speaker 1: the World, which has really good organizing trainings OT one

1941
01:50:59,240 --> 01:51:02,200
Speaker 1: on one one of too. I'll pitch that as a

1942
01:51:02,240 --> 01:51:05,000
Speaker 1: member of as a also a dual carding member of

1943
01:51:05,000 --> 01:51:08,800
Speaker 1: the i w w UM. But there's also Labor notes

1944
01:51:09,160 --> 01:51:13,559
Speaker 1: UM and other groups like Essential Workers Organizing Committee that's

1945
01:51:13,560 --> 01:51:16,200
Speaker 1: sort of things that like give you good like rundowns

1946
01:51:16,200 --> 01:51:21,479
Speaker 1: on how to do the organizing work. So just be careful,

1947
01:51:21,680 --> 01:51:24,719
Speaker 1: always be careful, to be aware that people are afraid.

1948
01:51:25,000 --> 01:51:29,479
Speaker 1: Bosses use fear um to scare you guys, to scare everybody,

1949
01:51:29,520 --> 01:51:32,559
Speaker 1: and like the the more people on board with a

1950
01:51:32,600 --> 01:51:35,000
Speaker 1: thing the less fear. Like it's amazing when you're running

1951
01:51:35,040 --> 01:51:36,960
Speaker 1: up into a strike and you're really firing on all

1952
01:51:37,040 --> 01:51:39,680
Speaker 1: cylinders and like everyone in your like work areas like

1953
01:51:39,920 --> 01:51:42,200
Speaker 1: we're getting together to take a picture, like getting ready

1954
01:51:42,200 --> 01:51:44,800
Speaker 1: to go on strike, and it's like literally, i mean

1955
01:51:45,000 --> 01:51:47,280
Speaker 1: when we went on strike, when our hospital went on strike,

1956
01:51:47,320 --> 01:51:49,720
Speaker 1: it was the first time where like there was like

1957
01:51:50,560 --> 01:51:53,160
Speaker 1: nurses on one places, the first time when all of

1958
01:51:53,200 --> 01:51:57,120
Speaker 1: us were in one place ever. And it's this massive,

1959
01:51:57,320 --> 01:52:00,840
Speaker 1: like coming together thing experience. It's and it's really hard

1960
01:52:00,880 --> 01:52:03,719
Speaker 1: to describe when you when because you know, we're always

1961
01:52:04,240 --> 01:52:06,519
Speaker 1: griping at each other about this or that thing's like,

1962
01:52:06,640 --> 01:52:08,400
Speaker 1: but when you're actually all out there together at the

1963
01:52:08,439 --> 01:52:12,360
Speaker 1: same time, when you pull it off, it's really amazing. Um.

1964
01:52:12,400 --> 01:52:15,280
Speaker 1: It's hard, it's it's hard to describe, um. But when

1965
01:52:15,280 --> 01:52:18,360
Speaker 1: you do it, it's like it's like the purest drug.

1966
01:52:18,680 --> 01:52:21,479
Speaker 1: And so I've I've heard some people who are union

1967
01:52:21,520 --> 01:52:24,200
Speaker 1: skeptical be like, well, you just experienced like the good ship,

1968
01:52:24,320 --> 01:52:27,240
Speaker 1: and like what about all the defeats, Like, well, get

1969
01:52:27,240 --> 01:52:29,400
Speaker 1: the little hits, get the little hits here and there,

1970
01:52:29,439 --> 01:52:31,559
Speaker 1: and get yourself to the point where you can do

1971
01:52:31,600 --> 01:52:34,240
Speaker 1: the big thing. You know, you're the whole thing is

1972
01:52:34,280 --> 01:52:36,479
Speaker 1: like getting people to do the thing is like the

1973
01:52:37,000 --> 01:52:41,479
Speaker 1: is it's like the perennial uh you know, curse of

1974
01:52:41,560 --> 01:52:43,800
Speaker 1: the left, can you do it? Or curse of you know,

1975
01:52:43,840 --> 01:52:49,280
Speaker 1: like the organizer activists or you know, whatever you wanna

1976
01:52:49,280 --> 01:52:51,960
Speaker 1: call it. You know, it's just but you know, if

1977
01:52:51,960 --> 01:52:56,000
Speaker 1: you don't do anything, nothing happens. You can all sit

1978
01:52:56,000 --> 01:52:59,680
Speaker 1: and complain and nothing changes. So you know, the only

1979
01:52:59,720 --> 01:53:02,280
Speaker 1: way to changes things just take those complaints and turn

1980
01:53:02,320 --> 01:53:05,000
Speaker 1: them into collective action. Yeah, I think I think that's

1981
01:53:05,040 --> 01:53:07,000
Speaker 1: that's that That that that that's that's a pretty good

1982
01:53:07,040 --> 01:53:11,120
Speaker 1: positive note to end on. Just go do thing. Go

1983
01:53:11,240 --> 01:53:15,240
Speaker 1: do the thing now. Stop tweet stop tweeting, stop tweeting

1984
01:53:15,280 --> 01:53:21,160
Speaker 1: about it, Go do the thing. Um yeah, I think

1985
01:53:21,200 --> 01:53:23,760
Speaker 1: that's I Like, I guess one last thing because I

1986
01:53:23,760 --> 01:53:25,960
Speaker 1: talked about social media and talk you know, I talked smack.

1987
01:53:26,040 --> 01:53:28,120
Speaker 1: I like, I've been off Twitter for some months now,

1988
01:53:28,360 --> 01:53:31,559
Speaker 1: is it really cleared my brain? But you know, um,

1989
01:53:31,640 --> 01:53:36,439
Speaker 1: being on finding the social media space where your your

1990
01:53:36,479 --> 01:53:39,960
Speaker 1: coworkers are at is really important and that might mean

1991
01:53:40,000 --> 01:53:43,280
Speaker 1: setting up like a discord or you know, what's app

1992
01:53:43,479 --> 01:53:46,160
Speaker 1: or a Facebook group you can set up secret Facebook

1993
01:53:46,160 --> 01:53:48,800
Speaker 1: groups that no one can see, and yeah, like you like,

1994
01:53:48,880 --> 01:53:53,799
Speaker 1: Facebook will periodically shut them down. But like our hospital

1995
01:53:53,840 --> 01:53:56,000
Speaker 1: has like a like a Facebook group with like two

1996
01:53:56,040 --> 01:54:00,920
Speaker 1: thousand nurses and we and that's where we really amped up.

1997
01:54:01,479 --> 01:54:02,960
Speaker 1: And it was a way for us to be talking

1998
01:54:03,000 --> 01:54:06,479
Speaker 1: with each other and talk each other through, um, the

1999
01:54:06,600 --> 01:54:09,120
Speaker 1: stress of setting up you know, this thing. And then

2000
01:54:09,160 --> 01:54:13,600
Speaker 1: also like you know, people workers can't organize like like

2001
01:54:13,800 --> 01:54:17,720
Speaker 1: people will do organizing even if like they don't have

2002
01:54:17,840 --> 01:54:20,959
Speaker 1: like that full support. So like some coworkers that coworkers,

2003
01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:24,040
Speaker 1: but members of my union went on strike at Coke

2004
01:54:24,080 --> 01:54:27,400
Speaker 1: County this year, and the whole thing was organized practically

2005
01:54:27,439 --> 01:54:31,880
Speaker 1: without like staff, right because the staff were barred from

2006
01:54:32,000 --> 01:54:35,360
Speaker 1: being in meetings, like in person meetings because of COVID

2007
01:54:36,280 --> 01:54:38,360
Speaker 1: and they couldn't go into the hospital because of COVID.

2008
01:54:38,520 --> 01:54:42,840
Speaker 1: So people were very pissed about how things have been

2009
01:54:42,840 --> 01:54:45,760
Speaker 1: going and they were talking to each other and we

2010
01:54:45,960 --> 01:54:49,960
Speaker 1: organized that strike. They organized that strike on their own practically, Um,

2011
01:54:50,000 --> 01:54:53,200
Speaker 1: you know, it lined up. They were off there. You know,

2012
01:54:53,400 --> 01:54:56,200
Speaker 1: they didn't have that no strike clause like operating at

2013
01:54:56,200 --> 01:54:59,360
Speaker 1: the time, and um, and they pulled off like a

2014
01:54:59,560 --> 01:55:03,400
Speaker 1: pretty like a significant victory UM from there one day

2015
01:55:03,440 --> 01:55:06,560
Speaker 1: strike and it really um really you know, like got

2016
01:55:06,640 --> 01:55:09,960
Speaker 1: them some big wins. But and they didn't they didn't

2017
01:55:09,960 --> 01:55:12,160
Speaker 1: need the union to do it for them. You know,

2018
01:55:12,200 --> 01:55:15,280
Speaker 1: the union was kind of like a facilitation tool rather

2019
01:55:15,360 --> 01:55:17,200
Speaker 1: than like the thing that got it done. I think

2020
01:55:17,200 --> 01:55:18,600
Speaker 1: that's the other thing is that there are people who

2021
01:55:18,640 --> 01:55:21,480
Speaker 1: think that like it's all dependent on like having like

2022
01:55:21,520 --> 01:55:25,760
Speaker 1: this hero staffer sort of thing situation, and at the

2023
01:55:25,840 --> 01:55:27,720
Speaker 1: end of the day, like if it's not the workers

2024
01:55:27,720 --> 01:55:31,920
Speaker 1: doing it themselves, nothing's going to happen. Yeah, yeah, right,

2025
01:55:32,680 --> 01:55:36,080
Speaker 1: the power. The power is with the working class itself,

2026
01:55:36,120 --> 01:55:38,720
Speaker 1: and if the working class doesn't use it, nothing will

2027
01:55:38,720 --> 01:55:41,480
Speaker 1: ever happen. Yeah, but if it does use it, I

2028
01:55:41,520 --> 01:55:47,920
Speaker 1: will trail off here. It sounds good. So, John, is

2029
01:55:47,920 --> 01:55:50,360
Speaker 1: is there any place that you want people to find

2030
01:55:50,480 --> 01:55:56,000
Speaker 1: things that you do? Like? Yea, I used to be

2031
01:55:56,080 --> 01:56:02,800
Speaker 1: on Twitter. Um periodically will show up on uh varn vlog,

2032
01:56:03,000 --> 01:56:09,120
Speaker 1: which is uh see Derek Varnes vlog on YouTube. Um

2033
01:56:09,200 --> 01:56:14,720
Speaker 1: there's I recommend people UH listen to. There's a group

2034
01:56:14,720 --> 01:56:18,560
Speaker 1: of podcasts called the Emancipatient Network. I really like their stuff,

2035
01:56:18,640 --> 01:56:24,640
Speaker 1: specially UM. There's a what's it called General Intellect Unit,

2036
01:56:24,640 --> 01:56:28,640
Speaker 1: which talks about like cybernetics and the left. UM. They

2037
01:56:28,680 --> 01:56:31,320
Speaker 1: have a lot of particularly cool stuff that's just come

2038
01:56:31,320 --> 01:56:34,560
Speaker 1: out recently about UM, about strategy that I think is

2039
01:56:34,600 --> 01:56:38,440
Speaker 1: really important for everyone to understand. UM. I was a

2040
01:56:38,440 --> 01:56:42,640
Speaker 1: founding member of the UH Libertarian Socialist Caucus at d

2041
01:56:42,760 --> 01:56:44,400
Speaker 1: s A. But I'm no longer in d s A.

2042
01:56:45,400 --> 01:56:47,800
Speaker 1: There's a but that group is still kind of kicking around.

2043
01:56:47,800 --> 01:56:52,200
Speaker 1: We're coming up with new things. Uh. Then then I guess, like, um,

2044
01:56:52,360 --> 01:56:55,560
Speaker 1: the University of Chicago Labor Council is a group that

2045
01:56:55,640 --> 01:56:59,360
Speaker 1: I spend a lot of time with. And there's also

2046
01:56:59,360 --> 01:57:01,320
Speaker 1: a tennency unit at Highe Park with Loan, which is

2047
01:57:01,400 --> 01:57:07,320
Speaker 1: a tenant union that you helped set up. And to hell. Yeah,

2048
01:57:07,560 --> 01:57:11,000
Speaker 1: so you know, um, go out there and you know,

2049
01:57:11,480 --> 01:57:14,080
Speaker 1: don't don't listen to me or don't try and find

2050
01:57:14,200 --> 01:57:16,920
Speaker 1: follow me. Go like you go figure it out and

2051
01:57:16,920 --> 01:57:19,600
Speaker 1: you're our neighborhood and ye, and set up a mill,

2052
01:57:19,760 --> 01:57:22,280
Speaker 1: set up a million different you know, like labor councils

2053
01:57:22,320 --> 01:57:27,240
Speaker 1: and worker committees and tenant unions that yeah, like build

2054
01:57:27,400 --> 01:57:30,720
Speaker 1: build power. That's why I think I sometimes we are

2055
01:57:30,720 --> 01:57:33,040
Speaker 1: afraid of the term power. I think that power is

2056
01:57:33,080 --> 01:57:36,120
Speaker 1: that it's best when it's everybody. And so I guess

2057
01:57:36,120 --> 01:57:38,440
Speaker 1: I might say it's like, go out there and build

2058
01:57:38,480 --> 01:57:44,000
Speaker 1: community and worker power and um, don't be afraid because

2059
01:57:44,640 --> 01:57:46,960
Speaker 1: fear is the one thing that they've got to wave

2060
01:57:47,000 --> 01:57:50,400
Speaker 1: over our heads. And sometimes you just got to take

2061
01:57:50,440 --> 01:57:53,360
Speaker 1: that jump and do the thing. And uh and that's

2062
01:57:53,360 --> 01:57:56,200
Speaker 1: how we're hopefully going to win one day save the world.

2063
01:57:57,160 --> 01:58:00,360
Speaker 1: And you can do this just like all of these things,

2064
01:58:00,400 --> 01:58:03,879
Speaker 1: everything we've been talking about for the past like two hours,

2065
01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:07,600
Speaker 1: these were all just done by ordinary people. Like there's

2066
01:58:07,600 --> 01:58:09,800
Speaker 1: just there's there's it's all. It's all done by random people.

2067
01:58:09,840 --> 01:58:13,080
Speaker 1: And you know that random person can be you. You

2068
01:58:13,160 --> 01:58:18,680
Speaker 1: just have to go and do go to the thing. Yeah.

2069
01:58:18,840 --> 01:58:22,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, this that this has been it could happen here.

2070
01:58:22,920 --> 01:58:25,400
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at Happened Here pod

2071
01:58:25,480 --> 01:58:30,280
Speaker 1: and also on Instagram there and uh yeah there's other

2072
01:58:30,320 --> 01:58:33,880
Speaker 1: cool zone stuff. Oh I guess yeah, well there's there's

2073
01:58:33,880 --> 01:58:36,280
Speaker 1: there's a new show called Mega Corp. That that we

2074
01:58:36,360 --> 01:58:39,240
Speaker 1: have that's about how corporations are bad, and the first

2075
01:58:39,280 --> 01:58:43,040
Speaker 1: seasons about Amazon. It's out now. Okay, he just doesn't

2076
01:58:43,120 --> 01:58:46,080
Speaker 1: have a Twitter, but Yeah, it's it's called Mega Corp.

2077
01:58:46,120 --> 01:58:52,560
Speaker 1: And you can find it wherever fine podcasts are distributed. Yes, okay, bye,

2078
01:59:10,640 --> 01:59:15,360
Speaker 1: m welcome everybody too. It could happen here. Um podcast

2079
01:59:15,480 --> 01:59:18,040
Speaker 1: about I don't know, how things are kind of kind

2080
01:59:18,080 --> 01:59:20,720
Speaker 1: of kind of crumbling and how we can maybe put it,

2081
01:59:20,720 --> 01:59:24,040
Speaker 1: put stuff, put stuff back together. And today I am

2082
01:59:24,040 --> 01:59:28,200
Speaker 1: excited to talk with a senior let's see what is

2083
01:59:28,360 --> 01:59:30,720
Speaker 1: what is what? What is the actual? What's actual term?

2084
01:59:30,760 --> 01:59:40,280
Speaker 1: I saw it A senior programs strategist at Wikimedia, Alex Stinson. Hello, greetings, Hi,

2085
01:59:40,560 --> 01:59:43,280
Speaker 1: it's so good to be here. I'm very excited about

2086
01:59:43,280 --> 01:59:45,840
Speaker 1: our talk today because I mean, this should this should

2087
01:59:45,920 --> 01:59:49,480
Speaker 1: surprise nobody that I used to I used to be

2088
01:59:49,560 --> 01:59:53,520
Speaker 1: a Wikipedia editor back in the day. Not not shocking

2089
01:59:53,560 --> 01:59:57,200
Speaker 1: at all, if if if you know me. Um, but yeah,

2090
01:59:57,280 --> 02:00:00,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about what kind of Wikipedia just itself,

2091
02:00:01,040 --> 02:00:05,560
Speaker 1: and then also climate misinformation and disinformation and how we

2092
02:00:05,600 --> 02:00:09,400
Speaker 1: can maybe create a better understanding of climate change in

2093
02:00:09,440 --> 02:00:12,120
Speaker 1: its effects across kind of the world and how digital

2094
02:00:12,160 --> 02:00:14,680
Speaker 1: information works. Those are all kind of topics we talk

2095
02:00:14,760 --> 02:00:19,880
Speaker 1: about often enough, but never within the actual context of

2096
02:00:19,920 --> 02:00:23,320
Speaker 1: like Wikipedia as an entity. Um, so I guess let's

2097
02:00:23,360 --> 02:00:26,160
Speaker 1: let's just start there with with Wikipedia. And like for

2098
02:00:26,200 --> 02:00:28,760
Speaker 1: those who don't, maybe maybe people like use website, but

2099
02:00:28,800 --> 02:00:30,280
Speaker 1: they're not quite sure what it is. Like how how

2100
02:00:30,320 --> 02:00:33,120
Speaker 1: do you actually describe what Wikipedia is? Because it is

2101
02:00:33,160 --> 02:00:38,320
Speaker 1: like an interesting kind of amorphous entity. It's so many things. Um,

2102
02:00:38,400 --> 02:00:41,520
Speaker 1: I think most people are used to thinking about Wikipedia

2103
02:00:41,560 --> 02:00:44,000
Speaker 1: is like the fact checking device. Like I have a

2104
02:00:44,000 --> 02:00:46,360
Speaker 1: bar argument with my friends and I pull out my

2105
02:00:46,440 --> 02:00:51,400
Speaker 1: phone and yeah, yeah website at me. Right, Um, it's

2106
02:00:51,400 --> 02:00:55,760
Speaker 1: a lot of things. It's three language Wikipedia's. Actually it's

2107
02:00:55,760 --> 02:00:58,640
Speaker 1: not just one. Each of these communities has its own

2108
02:00:58,760 --> 02:01:02,919
Speaker 1: editorial community. Um. At last I checked, it's like sixty

2109
02:01:02,960 --> 02:01:06,600
Speaker 1: million articles across the languages. It's it's really it's a

2110
02:01:06,680 --> 02:01:10,040
Speaker 1: lot of different content. Um. And a topic can be

2111
02:01:10,160 --> 02:01:13,280
Speaker 1: on each of those Wikipedia's right. Um. And this is

2112
02:01:13,520 --> 02:01:16,240
Speaker 1: important as we start talking about disinformation. Is like each

2113
02:01:16,280 --> 02:01:19,560
Speaker 1: Wikipedia because it's edited by people in that language, and

2114
02:01:19,640 --> 02:01:23,520
Speaker 1: it's written by that language community. Um. You know each

2115
02:01:23,640 --> 02:01:27,800
Speaker 1: article is different and have different perspectives. Um. Two d

2116
02:01:28,040 --> 02:01:32,080
Speaker 1: eighty thousand volunteers editing every month. Uh so this is

2117
02:01:32,120 --> 02:01:35,480
Speaker 1: a lot of people, right, But the bulk of that's

2118
02:01:35,520 --> 02:01:39,480
Speaker 1: happening on English, Wikipedia, and some of the larger languages

2119
02:01:39,560 --> 02:01:43,080
Speaker 1: that are spoken across multiple cultural context And then there's

2120
02:01:43,080 --> 02:01:46,520
Speaker 1: also a lot of other content sitting behind Wikipedia. So

2121
02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:50,520
Speaker 1: there's a media repository, um. And there's a we called

2122
02:01:50,520 --> 02:01:55,760
Speaker 1: Wikimedia Commons, and there's a database called wiki Data, which

2123
02:01:55,840 --> 02:01:58,440
Speaker 1: kind of powers those little knowledge graphs on the right

2124
02:01:58,480 --> 02:02:01,080
Speaker 1: side of Google and a whole bunch of other parts

2125
02:02:01,120 --> 02:02:05,280
Speaker 1: of the Internet. Wiki data shows up in Amazon, Alexa

2126
02:02:05,360 --> 02:02:08,200
Speaker 1: and all kinds of other places, right and and so

2127
02:02:08,320 --> 02:02:12,080
Speaker 1: it's it's we're not just like one website. It's many websites,

2128
02:02:12,360 --> 02:02:16,600
Speaker 1: lots of knowledge, lots of platforms, lots of context. Um.

2129
02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:20,000
Speaker 1: And we'll come back to that the more as we talked. Yeah,

2130
02:02:20,000 --> 02:02:21,920
Speaker 1: what really interesting part of it is like I don't

2131
02:02:21,920 --> 02:02:27,280
Speaker 1: know my my personal kind of social leanings. I generally

2132
02:02:27,320 --> 02:02:32,000
Speaker 1: kind of like things that are more decentralized in general. Um.

2133
02:02:32,200 --> 02:02:34,720
Speaker 1: Other other hosts in the podcast are generally kind of

2134
02:02:35,280 --> 02:02:40,200
Speaker 1: on like the progressive left libertarian spectrum. Um. And one

2135
02:02:40,200 --> 02:02:43,840
Speaker 1: thing I do really appreciate about Wikipedia is is it's

2136
02:02:43,840 --> 02:02:46,360
Speaker 1: more like it's It's not I I don't think it's

2137
02:02:46,360 --> 02:02:51,520
Speaker 1: like open source, but it's the way it has decentralized

2138
02:02:51,600 --> 02:02:53,840
Speaker 1: editing and all that kind of stuff. It's just a

2139
02:02:53,880 --> 02:02:56,520
Speaker 1: really interesting model of of like what if a lot

2140
02:02:56,520 --> 02:02:59,320
Speaker 1: more stuff worked this way? And I'm not sure like

2141
02:02:59,360 --> 02:03:01,680
Speaker 1: how how much like a decentralization focus is there, like

2142
02:03:01,720 --> 02:03:05,320
Speaker 1: consciously at people at the foundation and people who try

2143
02:03:05,360 --> 02:03:08,680
Speaker 1: to like actually like run it behind the scenes and stuff. Yeah.

2144
02:03:08,760 --> 02:03:11,960
Speaker 1: So Wikipedia grows out of the like open source movement

2145
02:03:12,120 --> 02:03:14,160
Speaker 1: and the kind of early days of the Internet. Right,

2146
02:03:14,200 --> 02:03:16,960
Speaker 1: this idea that like knowledge wants to be free, technology

2147
02:03:17,000 --> 02:03:19,640
Speaker 1: wants to be free, software wants to be free. Um,

2148
02:03:19,760 --> 02:03:23,440
Speaker 1: let's let's use the legal infrastructure to like create freedom,

2149
02:03:23,640 --> 02:03:26,480
Speaker 1: right uh in that sense. And then there's also the

2150
02:03:26,560 --> 02:03:29,200
Speaker 1: free as in like anyone can edit, and then the

2151
02:03:29,320 --> 02:03:31,600
Speaker 1: free to like do whatever you want out there in

2152
02:03:31,640 --> 02:03:34,600
Speaker 1: the world. Um. There there's people are like free as

2153
02:03:34,680 --> 02:03:37,640
Speaker 1: in beer and free as in speech, right uh, and

2154
02:03:38,000 --> 02:03:41,080
Speaker 1: those things are those things are also there's they're always

2155
02:03:41,080 --> 02:03:43,480
Speaker 1: intention uh and they're kind of working. And as you

2156
02:03:43,520 --> 02:03:46,000
Speaker 1: can imagine, especially when you get outside of kind of

2157
02:03:46,080 --> 02:03:51,879
Speaker 1: multicultural Internet spaces like English Wikipedia, um, it can get challenging.

2158
02:03:51,960 --> 02:03:55,839
Speaker 1: Like if you're in Croatia and everyone is speaking Croatian,

2159
02:03:56,200 --> 02:03:58,760
Speaker 1: there's a very small bubble in which to create that

2160
02:03:58,800 --> 02:04:03,040
Speaker 1: Wikipedia right, um. And so it's interesting in that sense. Um.

2161
02:04:03,080 --> 02:04:06,480
Speaker 1: I think there's also another part of Wikipedia that a

2162
02:04:06,520 --> 02:04:09,040
Speaker 1: lot of people don't see, which is the movement behind it.

2163
02:04:09,120 --> 02:04:12,760
Speaker 1: So there's the editorial communities. People show up and make edits. Um.

2164
02:04:12,800 --> 02:04:15,320
Speaker 1: But because there's this ideology that you're talking about, this

2165
02:04:15,400 --> 02:04:18,400
Speaker 1: like decentralized, like we need to share knowledge or culture

2166
02:04:18,440 --> 02:04:22,000
Speaker 1: or language on the Internet, there's also a whole social

2167
02:04:22,360 --> 02:04:26,120
Speaker 1: movement sitting behind the scenes. Uh. And there there's a

2168
02:04:26,120 --> 02:04:30,480
Speaker 1: podcast recently dot com The Wikipedia Story that kind of

2169
02:04:30,560 --> 02:04:34,280
Speaker 1: captured that the essence of that, um. And it's it's

2170
02:04:34,320 --> 02:04:37,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people like myself, So I started editing

2171
02:04:37,680 --> 02:04:42,800
Speaker 1: in high school. Yeah, yeah, one of those like, oh

2172
02:04:42,840 --> 02:04:44,840
Speaker 1: I know how to click the edit button and I

2173
02:04:44,880 --> 02:04:46,760
Speaker 1: figure out how to use the Internet and that kind

2174
02:04:46,760 --> 02:04:49,720
Speaker 1: of thing. But there's a lot of people that like

2175
02:04:49,920 --> 02:04:52,760
Speaker 1: the intuitiveness of clicking and edit button on a piece

2176
02:04:52,800 --> 02:04:56,520
Speaker 1: of open source software to create content is just not

2177
02:04:56,840 --> 02:04:58,879
Speaker 1: It's not clear, right, And so you have to organize

2178
02:04:58,920 --> 02:05:01,320
Speaker 1: and invite people in. And so we have a whole

2179
02:05:01,360 --> 02:05:04,320
Speaker 1: movement that does that too. That there's about a hundred

2180
02:05:05,360 --> 02:05:09,600
Speaker 1: organizations around the world that we organize events, work with

2181
02:05:10,040 --> 02:05:14,880
Speaker 1: libraries and museums and educational institutions, and so there's always

2182
02:05:14,920 --> 02:05:19,040
Speaker 1: this um kind of interesting dynamic where our values, which

2183
02:05:19,080 --> 02:05:23,160
Speaker 1: is this like open software platform stuff has also lived

2184
02:05:23,280 --> 02:05:26,480
Speaker 1: in our practice, in our outreach, like creating change through

2185
02:05:26,560 --> 02:05:30,760
Speaker 1: society by sharing knowledge and education. Um. And so I think, yeah,

2186
02:05:30,920 --> 02:05:34,320
Speaker 1: it's it's it's an interesting it's an interesting dynamic. Yeah.

2187
02:05:34,360 --> 02:05:38,720
Speaker 1: I think that does create a really oftentimes beautiful reflection.

2188
02:05:38,840 --> 02:05:40,240
Speaker 1: It could it can have some dark sides different once

2189
02:05:40,280 --> 02:05:42,360
Speaker 1: in a while, but it is it is really nice

2190
02:05:42,360 --> 02:05:45,040
Speaker 1: to have like kind of the ideology driving it being

2191
02:05:45,080 --> 02:05:47,920
Speaker 1: reflected in the actions of operating it and spreading it

2192
02:05:47,920 --> 02:05:50,600
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. Um. So this is something

2193
02:05:50,640 --> 02:05:53,680
Speaker 1: we kind of briefly touched on already, but I think

2194
02:05:53,720 --> 02:05:56,320
Speaker 1: I'd like to move on to kind of why, like

2195
02:05:56,480 --> 02:06:02,280
Speaker 1: how climate change in broader like social issues are covered

2196
02:06:02,320 --> 02:06:06,000
Speaker 1: on Wikipedia, because you already mentioned like it's kind because

2197
02:06:06,000 --> 02:06:09,120
Speaker 1: there's not a Wikipedia, there's many based on different languages

2198
02:06:09,120 --> 02:06:12,280
Speaker 1: in places. It feels like to me, whenever social issues

2199
02:06:12,360 --> 02:06:14,320
Speaker 1: kind of get covered on Wikipedia, it's going to be

2200
02:06:14,320 --> 02:06:16,960
Speaker 1: in some part like a local reflection of whatever is

2201
02:06:17,000 --> 02:06:19,760
Speaker 1: in that area. You know, if if there's like a

2202
02:06:19,800 --> 02:06:23,400
Speaker 1: white liberal writing articles in New York, it's gonna be

2203
02:06:23,400 --> 02:06:27,200
Speaker 1: different than someone you know, halfway across the world writing

2204
02:06:27,240 --> 02:06:30,160
Speaker 1: them in you know, a much smaller country, let's say,

2205
02:06:30,200 --> 02:06:33,240
Speaker 1: like Belarus, who's under like what I would call a dictatorship.

2206
02:06:33,640 --> 02:06:36,840
Speaker 1: Um so that's gonna change kind of the nature of

2207
02:06:36,920 --> 02:06:40,280
Speaker 1: what people are making because of that kind of divide.

2208
02:06:40,520 --> 02:06:43,120
Speaker 1: So how how does that kind of crop up and

2209
02:06:43,760 --> 02:06:46,920
Speaker 1: is there any like solutions to that or because because

2210
02:06:46,960 --> 02:06:49,320
Speaker 1: the because of the decentralized thing, it's like, how much

2211
02:06:49,320 --> 02:06:53,320
Speaker 1: can we like impose like who like I'm I'm, I'm

2212
02:06:53,360 --> 02:06:55,520
Speaker 1: I'm not in Belarus? How much can I impose what

2213
02:06:55,680 --> 02:06:59,800
Speaker 1: I want their Wikipedia to look like? Yeah, there's kind

2214
02:06:59,800 --> 02:07:03,000
Speaker 1: of two or three dynamics you're you're touching on here.

2215
02:07:03,120 --> 02:07:07,160
Speaker 1: The first is because there's kind of an intention bias,

2216
02:07:07,200 --> 02:07:10,680
Speaker 1: Like something comes up in the news, and our Wikipedia community,

2217
02:07:10,800 --> 02:07:14,360
Speaker 1: like people are within minutes of breaking news stories are

2218
02:07:14,440 --> 02:07:17,640
Speaker 1: usually like editing the page, working to improve it. Right.

2219
02:07:18,080 --> 02:07:20,560
Speaker 1: Um So if things show up in the you know,

2220
02:07:20,880 --> 02:07:25,960
Speaker 1: European American press, it's very likely, especially something like English

2221
02:07:25,960 --> 02:07:28,560
Speaker 1: Wikipedia will pick up on it and immediately cover it.

2222
02:07:28,760 --> 02:07:33,520
Speaker 1: And because there are multiple perspectives in those press usually um,

2223
02:07:33,640 --> 02:07:38,520
Speaker 1: kind of the ideological uh kind of multi sided nice

2224
02:07:38,680 --> 02:07:41,160
Speaker 1: like works itself out because there's a lot of eyes

2225
02:07:41,280 --> 02:07:43,800
Speaker 1: and a lot of people who know how to edit there, right,

2226
02:07:44,440 --> 02:07:50,680
Speaker 1: um on in a kind of cultural linguistic geographic context

2227
02:07:50,720 --> 02:07:53,680
Speaker 1: where there's like one set of stories and there's not

2228
02:07:53,760 --> 02:07:57,320
Speaker 1: a lot of diversity. Um uh, this this happens. And

2229
02:07:57,320 --> 02:07:59,880
Speaker 1: and I'm going to refer to the creation Wikipedia because

2230
02:07:59,880 --> 02:08:03,400
Speaker 1: we we actually had an external researcher look at Croatian

2231
02:08:03,400 --> 02:08:06,839
Speaker 1: Wikipedia because part of it has been kind of caught

2232
02:08:06,920 --> 02:08:10,640
Speaker 1: by by folks with kind of very ideological leanings in

2233
02:08:10,680 --> 02:08:13,600
Speaker 1: a way that's excluding others. And this is not good, right.

2234
02:08:13,840 --> 02:08:17,120
Speaker 1: It creates a very one sided information environment and it

2235
02:08:17,160 --> 02:08:22,000
Speaker 1: really reflects um, kind of the news dynamic going on there.

2236
02:08:22,280 --> 02:08:25,000
Speaker 1: So when like breaking news happens, or when a topic

2237
02:08:25,040 --> 02:08:27,960
Speaker 1: like a social issue or not neces like climate change

2238
02:08:28,000 --> 02:08:30,120
Speaker 1: is not a social issue, right, this is a global

2239
02:08:30,600 --> 02:08:36,720
Speaker 1: like life threatening issue. Um. When when something becomes politicized,

2240
02:08:36,840 --> 02:08:40,240
Speaker 1: it's very easy for especially in smaller language wikipedias, for

2241
02:08:40,400 --> 02:08:46,880
Speaker 1: few people to kind of swing the whole perspective on that. Um. So, yeah,

2242
02:08:46,960 --> 02:08:49,720
Speaker 1: there's this breaking news issue and this is where are

2243
02:08:49,840 --> 02:08:53,520
Speaker 1: kind of organized communities are really important. So the example

2244
02:08:53,560 --> 02:08:56,600
Speaker 1: we when I point out of this working well UM

2245
02:08:56,680 --> 02:08:59,720
Speaker 1: is in medicine. So are our medical community during the

2246
02:09:00,000 --> 02:09:04,200
Speaker 1: all the outbreaks a few years back, UM in West Africa,

2247
02:09:04,520 --> 02:09:09,200
Speaker 1: we're able to organize both on English and then languages

2248
02:09:09,240 --> 02:09:13,080
Speaker 1: that were accessible for local communities, high quality coverage of

2249
02:09:13,080 --> 02:09:16,960
Speaker 1: the medical content because it's like has impact on people's lives,

2250
02:09:17,080 --> 02:09:20,720
Speaker 1: and so they recruited translators. They thought about, like what's

2251
02:09:20,720 --> 02:09:24,680
Speaker 1: a simple way to communicate the story UM in that context,

2252
02:09:24,800 --> 02:09:28,960
Speaker 1: and like what do the workers, the or the advocates

2253
02:09:29,080 --> 02:09:32,000
Speaker 1: or whoever on the ground who's working with that crisis,

2254
02:09:32,600 --> 02:09:35,720
Speaker 1: what knowledge do they need? Right? UM? And you see

2255
02:09:35,840 --> 02:09:40,040
Speaker 1: like other open technology movements do stuff like this, like

2256
02:09:40,160 --> 02:09:43,920
Speaker 1: humanitarian Open Streetmap has a similar kind of way of organizing.

2257
02:09:43,960 --> 02:09:48,160
Speaker 1: They're like, hey, there's a crisis happening, UM, let's pull

2258
02:09:48,240 --> 02:09:50,600
Speaker 1: people together from different parts of the world who have

2259
02:09:50,720 --> 02:09:55,480
Speaker 1: the right knowledge or skills and like address the knowledge gap. UM,

2260
02:09:55,680 --> 02:09:59,360
Speaker 1: so so you can solve it. It's just it's complicated. UM.

2261
02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:02,120
Speaker 1: And you know, we've been trying to address as a

2262
02:10:02,160 --> 02:10:05,080
Speaker 1: movement what we call the gender gap. So there's both

2263
02:10:05,120 --> 02:10:09,720
Speaker 1: less women editors as women's content on many of the wikis,

2264
02:10:09,800 --> 02:10:13,880
Speaker 1: and like, it's taken years, and it's very hard to organize,

2265
02:10:14,440 --> 02:10:18,240
Speaker 1: and even when there's investment in it, um, it's it's

2266
02:10:18,360 --> 02:10:22,600
Speaker 1: challenging to make substantial progress because there might be contextual

2267
02:10:22,600 --> 02:10:25,440
Speaker 1: issues around it too. And so you can't just like

2268
02:10:26,080 --> 02:10:30,640
Speaker 1: drop in on a Central Asian language with a like

2269
02:10:30,800 --> 02:10:34,760
Speaker 1: Western perspective and expect to like change the culture of

2270
02:10:34,760 --> 02:10:37,720
Speaker 1: the wiki overnight. You have to engage with it consistently

2271
02:10:38,040 --> 02:10:40,880
Speaker 1: and be persistent and work on it over and over

2272
02:10:40,920 --> 02:10:43,480
Speaker 1: and over again. We are going to take a short

2273
02:10:43,520 --> 02:10:47,840
Speaker 1: break to hear a message from our lovely lovely advertisers

2274
02:10:47,880 --> 02:10:53,120
Speaker 1: unless it's exomobile again, but we will be back shortly, Okay,

2275
02:10:53,200 --> 02:10:56,640
Speaker 1: and we're back. Um. One one thing that we cover

2276
02:10:57,760 --> 02:11:02,040
Speaker 1: decently part of my job and and and Robert Evans

2277
02:11:02,200 --> 02:11:05,840
Speaker 1: job is disinformation and misinformation and how that type of

2278
02:11:05,840 --> 02:11:10,440
Speaker 1: stuff spreads online, um, particularly you usually kind of linked

2279
02:11:10,480 --> 02:11:13,920
Speaker 1: to like political extremism um or conspiracy theories or you know,

2280
02:11:14,200 --> 02:11:18,480
Speaker 1: in that general kind of bubble um. And so, what

2281
02:11:18,480 --> 02:11:22,760
Speaker 1: what type of kind of climate misinformation has really been

2282
02:11:23,160 --> 02:11:27,160
Speaker 1: festering on various you know wikipedias across the world really

2283
02:11:27,160 --> 02:11:28,600
Speaker 1: because like we were just were talking about like these

2284
02:11:28,640 --> 02:11:31,000
Speaker 1: topics and how and how and like why it happens,

2285
02:11:31,000 --> 02:11:33,720
Speaker 1: but like what are the main types of misinformation or

2286
02:11:33,800 --> 02:11:38,960
Speaker 1: disinformation that is much more like prevalent. Yeah. Um, so

2287
02:11:39,040 --> 02:11:43,760
Speaker 1: the first is just kind of neglect of uh, content

2288
02:11:44,200 --> 02:11:47,960
Speaker 1: that's happening across the various things related to climate. Um.

2289
02:11:48,000 --> 02:11:51,400
Speaker 1: But we've identified on English Wikipedia over three thousand, seven

2290
02:11:51,480 --> 02:11:56,080
Speaker 1: hundred articles that are directly related to climate change. Uh.

2291
02:11:56,240 --> 02:11:59,640
Speaker 1: We don't have a very big editorial community in English

2292
02:11:59,760 --> 02:12:02,919
Speaker 1: on that topic. That's like interesting fluent in the science

2293
02:12:03,080 --> 02:12:05,000
Speaker 1: and fluent and the other stuff. And then you go

2294
02:12:05,000 --> 02:12:07,960
Speaker 1: out to the other languages and like some of the

2295
02:12:08,040 --> 02:12:11,280
Speaker 1: languages have like three thousand of them, some of them

2296
02:12:11,320 --> 02:12:15,400
Speaker 1: have like two hundred, right, um, And so there is

2297
02:12:15,960 --> 02:12:19,400
Speaker 1: both um and some of that content was like translated

2298
02:12:19,440 --> 02:12:22,200
Speaker 1: several years ago, right or five or ten years ago,

2299
02:12:22,240 --> 02:12:24,960
Speaker 1: and yeah, you know, and like the climate rhetoric has

2300
02:12:25,080 --> 02:12:29,400
Speaker 1: really changed it and like numbers and statistics all that

2301
02:12:29,400 --> 02:12:31,720
Speaker 1: stuff gets updated every year, and it's yeah, that is

2302
02:12:31,760 --> 02:12:33,720
Speaker 1: there is there's there's a lot to cap with and

2303
02:12:33,800 --> 02:12:37,120
Speaker 1: like reading the IPCC report or looking at any of

2304
02:12:37,120 --> 02:12:40,040
Speaker 1: the consensus science, there's like a lot of change that

2305
02:12:40,080 --> 02:12:43,600
Speaker 1: you have to be influent in, like science communication, you

2306
02:12:43,640 --> 02:12:46,920
Speaker 1: have to understand like where to look for the information. Um.

2307
02:12:47,160 --> 02:12:50,960
Speaker 1: And it's interesting. My partner is a Spanish language speaker

2308
02:12:51,280 --> 02:12:54,760
Speaker 1: and she was in a kind of workshop for journalists

2309
02:12:55,120 --> 02:13:00,760
Speaker 1: in Argentina for climate communication, and the work shop is like, oh,

2310
02:13:00,920 --> 02:13:04,960
Speaker 1: you should cite the Guardian, right, so even as to

2311
02:13:04,960 --> 02:13:07,520
Speaker 1: to kind of understand this climate stuff. So a lot

2312
02:13:07,600 --> 02:13:11,280
Speaker 1: of these local language contexts, there aren't even good sources,

2313
02:13:11,640 --> 02:13:14,320
Speaker 1: and the sources they do have are often citing like

2314
02:13:14,560 --> 02:13:17,920
Speaker 1: the dominant narrative that's going on and like the anglophone

2315
02:13:17,920 --> 02:13:21,680
Speaker 1: news cycle, right, because there's not a lot of climate

2316
02:13:21,680 --> 02:13:24,320
Speaker 1: communication going on, and so there's just a lot of

2317
02:13:24,440 --> 02:13:29,880
Speaker 1: complexity involved in updating that much content all the time. Um.

2318
02:13:29,960 --> 02:13:32,560
Speaker 1: And so the bulk of the stuff that kind of

2319
02:13:32,560 --> 02:13:35,440
Speaker 1: creeps in is like this neglect, right. It's like some

2320
02:13:35,720 --> 02:13:39,240
Speaker 1: dominant idea in the narrative just hasn't been updated and

2321
02:13:39,320 --> 02:13:41,760
Speaker 1: like we need someone to update it. Um. And that's

2322
02:13:41,800 --> 02:13:45,200
Speaker 1: like an organizing problem, right, that's uh, like we need

2323
02:13:45,240 --> 02:13:48,080
Speaker 1: more people who are science literate, who speak the local language,

2324
02:13:48,160 --> 02:13:51,240
Speaker 1: who understand how to edit Wikipedia. Um. And that's trainable,

2325
02:13:51,360 --> 02:13:54,160
Speaker 1: like we can do that. Yeah. The reason that matters,

2326
02:13:54,280 --> 02:13:57,400
Speaker 1: the neglect matters is it stops people from making decisions

2327
02:13:57,440 --> 02:14:01,080
Speaker 1: about climate change because they don't have like an accurate

2328
02:14:01,160 --> 02:14:04,400
Speaker 1: sense of what we need to do, right, which is

2329
02:14:04,880 --> 02:14:09,920
Speaker 1: cut the false fuels, increase increased resilience, do adaptation like

2330
02:14:10,720 --> 02:14:15,560
Speaker 1: actual political change, right. Um. And so so that that's

2331
02:14:15,680 --> 02:14:18,720
Speaker 1: just it's a problem. Um. The other stuff is a

2332
02:14:18,760 --> 02:14:22,760
Speaker 1: bit more it's a little bit more complicated. Um. One

2333
02:14:22,800 --> 02:14:27,400
Speaker 1: of the things that happens is that, as you know,

2334
02:14:27,640 --> 02:14:31,680
Speaker 1: there's quite a manipulation of narrative that has happened around

2335
02:14:31,760 --> 02:14:35,960
Speaker 1: climate change. There's this really great podcast by Amy Westervelt

2336
02:14:36,760 --> 02:14:40,720
Speaker 1: about how the fossil fuel industry like got its message

2337
02:14:40,800 --> 02:14:43,520
Speaker 1: into schools in the last three years in the US,

2338
02:14:44,000 --> 02:14:47,240
Speaker 1: and like that narrative is just so prevalent. And so

2339
02:14:47,360 --> 02:14:50,520
Speaker 1: one of the things about wikipedias that we try to

2340
02:14:50,560 --> 02:14:56,480
Speaker 1: do a balance of positions. If there are reputable sources

2341
02:14:56,800 --> 02:14:59,920
Speaker 1: kind of describing or analyzing a topic, and this is

2342
02:15:00,360 --> 02:15:05,360
Speaker 1: back to your polarization question too. If they're reputable sources

2343
02:15:05,520 --> 02:15:07,760
Speaker 1: describing on topic, we try to give them equal weight

2344
02:15:08,120 --> 02:15:12,600
Speaker 1: and balance across the article. The problem with climate is

2345
02:15:12,640 --> 02:15:16,840
Speaker 1: that some of the narratives that look like reputable sources

2346
02:15:16,880 --> 02:15:21,920
Speaker 1: are just pumped out of fossil fuel industry funded sink tanks, right,

2347
02:15:22,400 --> 02:15:26,400
Speaker 1: and these things are not truthful narratives, right. Um. And

2348
02:15:26,520 --> 02:15:30,560
Speaker 1: so the BBC ran an article, uh two weeks ago

2349
02:15:31,400 --> 02:15:34,560
Speaker 1: on kind of climate denial and some of these smaller languages,

2350
02:15:35,480 --> 02:15:39,920
Speaker 1: a smaller language Wikipedias, and what they found was a

2351
02:15:39,960 --> 02:15:43,240
Speaker 1: lot of these narratives being given equal weight with the

2352
02:15:43,280 --> 02:15:47,720
Speaker 1: climate science. Um. And I took a look our community

2353
02:15:47,800 --> 02:15:51,280
Speaker 1: after that BBC article came out, started looking across all

2354
02:15:51,320 --> 02:15:54,839
Speaker 1: the language Wikipedia articles about just the main climate change page,

2355
02:15:55,240 --> 02:15:59,840
Speaker 1: and they found thirty one Wikipedia's that had some of

2356
02:16:00,040 --> 02:16:06,360
Speaker 1: that like equal weight of bad climate science. Interesting, yeah, um.

2357
02:16:06,440 --> 02:16:09,360
Speaker 1: And you know the BBC article only found like five

2358
02:16:09,440 --> 02:16:11,960
Speaker 1: or ten, right, We found another lot a lot more

2359
02:16:12,080 --> 02:16:14,960
Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah. And so it's it's like a it's

2360
02:16:15,000 --> 02:16:20,200
Speaker 1: a really like these narratives just seep in and you know, again,

2361
02:16:20,240 --> 02:16:24,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back to the Croatian example, like if

2362
02:16:24,280 --> 02:16:28,560
Speaker 1: your media environment has been locked down by a certain

2363
02:16:28,600 --> 02:16:33,320
Speaker 1: political rhetoric, too, those narratives might have traveled from like

2364
02:16:33,360 --> 02:16:40,120
Speaker 1: the Anglo sphere into these other spaces and then gotten stuck, right,

2365
02:16:40,200 --> 02:16:43,240
Speaker 1: and it's just like keeps getting recycled and so that

2366
02:16:43,360 --> 02:16:47,880
Speaker 1: causes delay. UM. And I was listening to your podcasts

2367
02:16:48,040 --> 02:16:53,480
Speaker 1: recently about soft climate denial, Like this is what's happening

2368
02:16:53,520 --> 02:16:58,599
Speaker 1: in other language environments, right, is people are rehearsing this misinformation.

2369
02:16:59,400 --> 02:17:03,800
Speaker 1: It's seems like a valid position because it's been rehearsed

2370
02:17:03,920 --> 02:17:07,480
Speaker 1: so many times by by folks. Some people who are

2371
02:17:07,600 --> 02:17:12,680
Speaker 1: championing that position are like doing so unknowingly, and then

2372
02:17:12,680 --> 02:17:15,920
Speaker 1: the process, we're kind of disconnecting it entirely from the

2373
02:17:16,080 --> 02:17:19,400
Speaker 1: source of the information, and that is just it's it's

2374
02:17:19,560 --> 02:17:24,800
Speaker 1: really bad. One interesting thing that I thought of when

2375
02:17:24,800 --> 02:17:27,720
Speaker 1: you were bringing up like sourcing, how sourcing itself coming

2376
02:17:27,720 --> 02:17:29,959
Speaker 1: an issue in like in the States. There's kind of

2377
02:17:30,000 --> 02:17:33,160
Speaker 1: like a joke that like wicked like when people use

2378
02:17:33,280 --> 02:17:35,840
Speaker 1: just Wikipedia as like as a source to be like

2379
02:17:36,160 --> 02:17:38,480
Speaker 1: they just they just link the article. But like that

2380
02:17:38,600 --> 02:17:40,560
Speaker 1: is the default for so many people when they begin

2381
02:17:40,840 --> 02:17:43,199
Speaker 1: begin a research project is like, Okay, what's the what's

2382
02:17:43,200 --> 02:17:45,400
Speaker 1: the what is what does Wikipedia have on it? What's

2383
02:17:45,440 --> 02:17:49,160
Speaker 1: the sources Wikipedia uses? Um and kind of branch off

2384
02:17:49,280 --> 02:17:51,880
Speaker 1: from there. It's a very common thing. So I'm not

2385
02:17:51,920 --> 02:17:54,320
Speaker 1: sure what like how different Internet culture will be different

2386
02:17:54,360 --> 02:17:58,240
Speaker 1: in in other countries. But if they do not, if

2387
02:17:58,240 --> 02:18:01,560
Speaker 1: they if they don't have like the bas sourcing necessary

2388
02:18:01,600 --> 02:18:05,640
Speaker 1: to create like a decent home page article, than just

2389
02:18:05,760 --> 02:18:08,480
Speaker 1: sourcing from Wikipedia in the first place becomes so much harder.

2390
02:18:08,920 --> 02:18:11,880
Speaker 1: Um because you like you were saying, like just use

2391
02:18:11,920 --> 02:18:14,600
Speaker 1: the Guardian is is like one of the things, like

2392
02:18:14,800 --> 02:18:17,000
Speaker 1: that's not horrible advice, But if it's only just from

2393
02:18:17,080 --> 02:18:19,400
Speaker 1: one thing, then that that's going to change the entire

2394
02:18:19,480 --> 02:18:24,480
Speaker 1: nature of like coverage and information on specific topics. Yeah. Yeah,

2395
02:18:24,560 --> 02:18:26,560
Speaker 1: I've had just be really interesting kind of thing that

2396
02:18:26,640 --> 02:18:30,599
Speaker 1: I never thought of before is how different countries wikipedias

2397
02:18:30,720 --> 02:18:34,280
Speaker 1: or like language with Wikipedia's will have will have like

2398
02:18:34,360 --> 02:18:38,680
Speaker 1: different sources. So then getting information from from the page

2399
02:18:38,720 --> 02:18:41,640
Speaker 1: it's just going to be so different. And like yeah,

2400
02:18:41,680 --> 02:18:44,320
Speaker 1: like like the whole, like the whole like teared of

2401
02:18:44,360 --> 02:18:48,240
Speaker 1: sourcing is just completely changed. Yeah. And and I think,

2402
02:18:48,280 --> 02:18:52,440
Speaker 1: like you know, in medicine and most medical practitioners expect

2403
02:18:52,720 --> 02:18:55,000
Speaker 1: most of the medical literature to be in a handful

2404
02:18:55,000 --> 02:18:58,080
Speaker 1: of languages like English and Chinese and that kind of stuff, right,

2405
02:18:58,120 --> 02:19:01,400
Speaker 1: and like part of your professional work and part of

2406
02:19:01,520 --> 02:19:04,800
Speaker 1: like saving people's lives is being able to use those sources.

2407
02:19:04,840 --> 02:19:08,240
Speaker 1: And so if a medical Wikipedia article has a translation

2408
02:19:08,360 --> 02:19:12,520
Speaker 1: from like an English article into another language, and you're

2409
02:19:12,520 --> 02:19:16,080
Speaker 1: distributing that to medical practitioners and they find the citation

2410
02:19:16,320 --> 02:19:18,520
Speaker 1: and it's in English and they can go follow the source,

2411
02:19:18,840 --> 02:19:21,400
Speaker 1: like that's not such a big deal. But with in

2412
02:19:21,440 --> 02:19:25,800
Speaker 1: a topic like climate UM, where the vast majority of

2413
02:19:25,800 --> 02:19:28,560
Speaker 1: the people that have to make decisions on this information

2414
02:19:29,120 --> 02:19:32,160
Speaker 1: do not have access to other languages. Maybe their access

2415
02:19:32,200 --> 02:19:36,400
Speaker 1: to English is through like machine translation, Google or something

2416
02:19:36,520 --> 02:19:39,879
Speaker 1: like that. Like having not having sources in your local

2417
02:19:39,920 --> 02:19:44,920
Speaker 1: language UM, or just having the sources that were translated

2418
02:19:44,959 --> 02:19:47,680
Speaker 1: from an English Wikipedia article, which happens a lot on

2419
02:19:47,800 --> 02:19:52,800
Speaker 1: these smaller language wikipedias, is kind of like not helpful

2420
02:19:53,040 --> 02:19:56,600
Speaker 1: for climate decision making UM. And this is where it's

2421
02:19:56,840 --> 02:19:59,720
Speaker 1: UM and it's easy for example, and a lot of

2422
02:19:59,760 --> 02:20:03,880
Speaker 1: these like Eastern European languages or Central Asian UH languages

2423
02:20:04,240 --> 02:20:10,480
Speaker 1: for like a politically spun news site opinion about something

2424
02:20:10,680 --> 02:20:13,959
Speaker 1: to kind of creep in at the same level of

2425
02:20:13,959 --> 02:20:19,960
Speaker 1: of kind of UH validity as as another as scientific

2426
02:20:20,000 --> 02:20:24,000
Speaker 1: research as the the you know, consensus understanding of the

2427
02:20:24,040 --> 02:20:27,960
Speaker 1: climate prices. So how how might I know we talked

2428
02:20:27,959 --> 02:20:31,200
Speaker 1: about like like trainings for like journalists and people to

2429
02:20:31,280 --> 02:20:34,360
Speaker 1: start editing Wikipedia's in their language. But like, how how

2430
02:20:34,400 --> 02:20:37,920
Speaker 1: do we kind of improve climate communication overall with open

2431
02:20:37,959 --> 02:20:41,720
Speaker 1: access to information and you know, creating more linguistic um

2432
02:20:42,000 --> 02:20:46,000
Speaker 1: diversity and stuff. Yeah, well, I think there's like a

2433
02:20:46,080 --> 02:20:49,560
Speaker 1: couple opportunities um in this, and then I there's some

2434
02:20:49,640 --> 02:20:52,680
Speaker 1: other misinformation I also want to talk about too, UM.

2435
02:20:52,720 --> 02:20:55,879
Speaker 1: But I think that this, the sourcing one, is a

2436
02:20:56,000 --> 02:21:04,160
Speaker 1: particularly challenging one. UM. We need like more basic science

2437
02:21:04,160 --> 02:21:07,680
Speaker 1: based climate communication and more languages. And I'm not saying

2438
02:21:07,720 --> 02:21:11,480
Speaker 1: like just the the like more languages, like the big

2439
02:21:11,560 --> 02:21:14,480
Speaker 1: un languages are the ones that are kind of colonial

2440
02:21:14,520 --> 02:21:19,200
Speaker 1: across cultural languages like Spanish or French or Arabic or

2441
02:21:19,240 --> 02:21:22,720
Speaker 1: you know, all these languages that have been used across cultures.

2442
02:21:22,879 --> 02:21:25,560
Speaker 1: We also need it in local languages, um. And we

2443
02:21:25,600 --> 02:21:27,480
Speaker 1: needed to be evidence based and we needed to be

2444
02:21:27,520 --> 02:21:30,720
Speaker 1: an audience based. Right, So if if someone is like

2445
02:21:30,879 --> 02:21:35,880
Speaker 1: searching online in Swahili about how like drought is happening

2446
02:21:35,879 --> 02:21:39,360
Speaker 1: in Kenya right or Tanzania or or the you know

2447
02:21:39,440 --> 02:21:42,680
Speaker 1: there's suddenly flooding or like I need to deal with X,

2448
02:21:42,800 --> 02:21:47,520
Speaker 1: Y and Z adaptation to the climate crisis, UM, which

2449
02:21:47,800 --> 02:21:51,280
Speaker 1: is by the way, what all of the global South

2450
02:21:51,360 --> 02:21:54,120
Speaker 1: is doing right now, right, Like, the global South is

2451
02:21:54,200 --> 02:21:58,520
Speaker 1: having to adapt to this crisis that polluting countries has

2452
02:21:58,560 --> 02:22:00,800
Speaker 1: have made, and we're not at actually giving them the

2453
02:22:00,840 --> 02:22:05,000
Speaker 1: resources to the to the problem that we've cost you. Well,

2454
02:22:05,160 --> 02:22:07,240
Speaker 1: it's not even like giving the research. We're not even

2455
02:22:07,400 --> 02:22:10,000
Speaker 1: like the people who are like, we want to adapt

2456
02:22:10,000 --> 02:22:14,000
Speaker 1: our society. We're not resourcing the folks on the ground

2457
02:22:14,280 --> 02:22:16,960
Speaker 1: who have the agency, who have the understanding, who know

2458
02:22:17,040 --> 02:22:18,920
Speaker 1: how to do the research in the context, who know

2459
02:22:18,959 --> 02:22:21,360
Speaker 1: how to do the communication in the context. Right, We're

2460
02:22:21,400 --> 02:22:26,160
Speaker 1: not even like bolstering their their request for help, right,

2461
02:22:26,280 --> 02:22:30,560
Speaker 1: Like the the the UN Climate Conference kind of failed

2462
02:22:30,680 --> 02:22:35,360
Speaker 1: on this adaptation funding, right, And uh, this is you know,

2463
02:22:35,520 --> 02:22:38,080
Speaker 1: this is where like a platform like Wikipedia and like

2464
02:22:38,440 --> 02:22:41,240
Speaker 1: kind of approaching this from a knowledge activist perspective where

2465
02:22:41,240 --> 02:22:45,800
Speaker 1: you're like, there are people who need this knowledge to

2466
02:22:45,840 --> 02:22:49,440
Speaker 1: address like understand what's happening around them so they can

2467
02:22:49,440 --> 02:22:55,160
Speaker 1: make decisions. That doesn't like you know, yeah, we need

2468
02:22:55,240 --> 02:22:58,280
Speaker 1: those kinds of information. We need open source knowledge, not

2469
02:22:58,360 --> 02:23:02,600
Speaker 1: just Wikipedia but one of the platforms UM. And and

2470
02:23:02,840 --> 02:23:06,360
Speaker 1: you know the you all do open source investigation, and

2471
02:23:06,400 --> 02:23:09,640
Speaker 1: you're used to like open source software communities, and I

2472
02:23:10,000 --> 02:23:11,800
Speaker 1: listen a couple of your podcasts and you're kind of

2473
02:23:12,120 --> 02:23:15,520
Speaker 1: constantly speaking back to those open communities that that come

2474
02:23:15,560 --> 02:23:21,560
Speaker 1: out of like anglophone software spaces, UM, and like we

2475
02:23:21,600 --> 02:23:25,080
Speaker 1: need to acknowledge that, Like we we figured out how

2476
02:23:25,080 --> 02:23:28,320
Speaker 1: to acknowledge, but we haven't given all those tools. We

2477
02:23:28,360 --> 02:23:30,360
Speaker 1: haven't transferred the knowledge on how to do it. We

2478
02:23:30,400 --> 02:23:33,840
Speaker 1: haven't adapted those tools to other parts of the world

2479
02:23:33,879 --> 02:23:38,360
Speaker 1: and other languages. UM. And so just like starting to

2480
02:23:38,400 --> 02:23:42,600
Speaker 1: look for these other communities, asking for the people, like

2481
02:23:42,640 --> 02:23:46,800
Speaker 1: who's ready to organize, like giving them money to go

2482
02:23:46,920 --> 02:23:51,400
Speaker 1: do it? Right? These things are like really practical, UM,

2483
02:23:51,480 --> 02:23:54,760
Speaker 1: And I think we're we're not We're not often not

2484
02:23:54,920 --> 02:23:58,240
Speaker 1: listening or we're not looking for that solution. And reinder

2485
02:23:58,480 --> 02:24:01,680
Speaker 1: like most of the people having to adapt UM are

2486
02:24:01,720 --> 02:24:05,120
Speaker 1: in the global South and speak other languages, Like we

2487
02:24:05,200 --> 02:24:08,240
Speaker 1: need to be there in that language if we want

2488
02:24:08,280 --> 02:24:14,240
Speaker 1: the climate crisis so like resolve itself without you know,

2489
02:24:14,320 --> 02:24:19,920
Speaker 1: destroying people's lives. Yeah, absolutely, UM. Yeah, That's that's the

2490
02:24:19,959 --> 02:24:22,280
Speaker 1: thing we try to bring up, is that the people

2491
02:24:22,400 --> 02:24:25,480
Speaker 1: is going to be initially worse affected are the people

2492
02:24:25,520 --> 02:24:28,959
Speaker 1: who are already kind of not in the greatest situation

2493
02:24:29,000 --> 02:24:32,680
Speaker 1: in the first place. That's like, how how like how

2494
02:24:32,879 --> 02:24:35,160
Speaker 1: like the areas that are gonna that are gonna experience

2495
02:24:35,160 --> 02:24:37,080
Speaker 1: the most flooding, the most extreme weather events, all this

2496
02:24:37,200 --> 02:24:39,600
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. It's it's it's not it's not starting

2497
02:24:39,600 --> 02:24:42,080
Speaker 1: with something like New York City. It's starting with areas

2498
02:24:42,120 --> 02:24:44,640
Speaker 1: that are already dealing with a lot of like local

2499
02:24:44,680 --> 02:24:47,800
Speaker 1: issues and now this is just something else on top.

2500
02:24:47,920 --> 02:24:52,000
Speaker 1: And yeah, fixing all of that is uh, I mean,

2501
02:24:52,120 --> 02:24:54,040
Speaker 1: fixing all of it's impossible. We can we can only

2502
02:24:54,080 --> 02:24:58,640
Speaker 1: take like small adaptive steps to like mitigate some of

2503
02:24:58,680 --> 02:25:01,080
Speaker 1: the worst as X And yeah, I mean that that's

2504
02:25:01,080 --> 02:25:04,040
Speaker 1: that's stuff that comes up a bunch. But you mentioned

2505
02:25:04,080 --> 02:25:07,200
Speaker 1: you wanted to at least briefly mentioned, um, some other

2506
02:25:07,240 --> 02:25:11,680
Speaker 1: forms of disinformation. Yeah, so we we've also witnessed a

2507
02:25:11,720 --> 02:25:15,199
Speaker 1: couple of times, um where something will hit like breaking

2508
02:25:15,240 --> 02:25:18,720
Speaker 1: news or become a political position in a context, and

2509
02:25:18,760 --> 02:25:21,080
Speaker 1: then like we will see bad actors show up on

2510
02:25:21,080 --> 02:25:24,320
Speaker 1: Wikipedia and try to manipulate it. Um. I have two

2511
02:25:24,320 --> 02:25:30,480
Speaker 1: examples of those. The first is about a year year ago, Uh,

2512
02:25:30,800 --> 02:25:35,280
Speaker 1: we found a group of accounts editing about some of

2513
02:25:35,320 --> 02:25:42,080
Speaker 1: the inter Amazonian highways that the Bolsonaro presidency is building

2514
02:25:42,280 --> 02:25:46,120
Speaker 1: through through the Amazon UM where they were trying to

2515
02:25:46,200 --> 02:25:51,959
Speaker 1: remove the environmental and indigenous people's UH impact assessments from

2516
02:25:52,000 --> 02:25:56,480
Speaker 1: the Wikipedia articles UH and so like basic human rights stuff,

2517
02:25:56,800 --> 02:26:02,680
Speaker 1: basic you know, healthy environment things that the government is

2518
02:26:02,720 --> 02:26:06,879
Speaker 1: like expected to follow through on. We're being like manipulated

2519
02:26:06,959 --> 02:26:12,760
Speaker 1: out of the articles for a more like pro economic

2520
02:26:12,840 --> 02:26:18,320
Speaker 1: growth narrative UM and so you know, it's we can't

2521
02:26:18,360 --> 02:26:23,080
Speaker 1: like the shift towards this like very extreme right like

2522
02:26:23,280 --> 02:26:28,480
Speaker 1: economic growth only version of reality UM does play out

2523
02:26:28,520 --> 02:26:30,640
Speaker 1: on the wiki. Now, we we were lucky that this

2524
02:26:30,760 --> 02:26:33,520
Speaker 1: was fairly trans like fairly easy to see once we

2525
02:26:33,560 --> 02:26:37,600
Speaker 1: found it, but we had to coordinate across UM, English,

2526
02:26:37,640 --> 02:26:42,400
Speaker 1: Spanish and Portuguese to like address the problem. So so

2527
02:26:42,440 --> 02:26:44,800
Speaker 1: we need like multi lingual communities who are kind of

2528
02:26:44,800 --> 02:26:47,959
Speaker 1: coordinating and talking to each other to address that. UM.

2529
02:26:48,000 --> 02:26:51,400
Speaker 1: The other thing we've seen is like, so did you

2530
02:26:52,200 --> 02:26:55,720
Speaker 1: I don't know how well you follow the climate movement? UM,

2531
02:26:55,760 --> 02:27:00,359
Speaker 1: but did you see when Disha Rabb got arrested and India?

2532
02:27:01,080 --> 02:27:04,560
Speaker 1: By chance? I don't think so. So she she's a

2533
02:27:04,600 --> 02:27:07,960
Speaker 1: youth climate activist that was part of Friday's for Future India,

2534
02:27:08,600 --> 02:27:11,000
Speaker 1: which is like a group kind of sister group of

2535
02:27:11,040 --> 02:27:14,560
Speaker 1: the group that formed in Europe around Greta Twinberg. Right

2536
02:27:15,160 --> 02:27:22,960
Speaker 1: um and uh she uh um. Her Gmail account got

2537
02:27:22,959 --> 02:27:27,840
Speaker 1: attached to a Google doc. Uh just seen active on

2538
02:27:27,840 --> 02:27:31,360
Speaker 1: a Google doc that was about sharing social media about

2539
02:27:31,360 --> 02:27:34,400
Speaker 1: the India the farmers protests in India, which have been

2540
02:27:34,680 --> 02:27:38,640
Speaker 1: like a real political sticking point issue. And I had

2541
02:27:38,720 --> 02:27:42,640
Speaker 1: written so I'm both a volunteer and a professional who

2542
02:27:42,720 --> 02:27:45,400
Speaker 1: organizes the community. And in my volunteer time, I had

2543
02:27:45,440 --> 02:27:50,280
Speaker 1: written the biography Adisha Rabbi like months before the Indian

2544
02:27:50,280 --> 02:27:53,800
Speaker 1: government kind of identified her with this social media tool kit.

2545
02:27:54,360 --> 02:27:58,600
Speaker 1: And um when she got arrested for something that's like

2546
02:27:58,720 --> 02:28:05,200
Speaker 1: just basic social organizing tactic social media, umu, the kind

2547
02:28:05,200 --> 02:28:10,200
Speaker 1: of Hindu nationalist social media environment like zoomed in on

2548
02:28:10,320 --> 02:28:14,320
Speaker 1: her Wikipedia article and on all these other social media

2549
02:28:14,360 --> 02:28:18,560
Speaker 1: presences she had, and they tried to silence it. Um

2550
02:28:18,800 --> 02:28:21,400
Speaker 1: be like okay, we need to leave this article. And

2551
02:28:21,760 --> 02:28:24,800
Speaker 1: uh Fortunately, like a group of us were watching the

2552
02:28:24,800 --> 02:28:27,760
Speaker 1: page and we caught it and we're able to stop that.

2553
02:28:27,959 --> 02:28:30,640
Speaker 1: But there's kind of the the the kind of flash

2554
02:28:30,680 --> 02:28:34,640
Speaker 1: mob situation that happens a lot now in social media,

2555
02:28:34,680 --> 02:28:39,320
Speaker 1: where it's that is, this thing has been polarized, now

2556
02:28:39,360 --> 02:28:42,080
Speaker 1: we need to go attack it. Um. And so you

2557
02:28:42,120 --> 02:28:45,560
Speaker 1: can imagine like English Wikipedia has a healthy immune system

2558
02:28:45,680 --> 02:28:47,960
Speaker 1: for this kind of stuff. It like sees it, but

2559
02:28:48,000 --> 02:28:49,760
Speaker 1: it has enough, it has enough people that it can

2560
02:28:49,959 --> 02:28:53,520
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah. Yeah, but you can imagine on a

2561
02:28:53,640 --> 02:28:57,600
Speaker 1: smaller wiki that the narrative could shift and stay permanently

2562
02:28:57,600 --> 02:29:02,240
Speaker 1: shifted quite quickly. Yeah, um if that happened. And so

2563
02:29:02,360 --> 02:29:04,720
Speaker 1: that that's another concern. Right, So there's like the subtle

2564
02:29:04,760 --> 02:29:07,680
Speaker 1: like a few accounts just like quietly removing things, and

2565
02:29:07,720 --> 02:29:11,840
Speaker 1: then like the act of political um kind of intervention

2566
02:29:12,000 --> 02:29:14,320
Speaker 1: that happens. And in terms of like disinformation, do you

2567
02:29:14,360 --> 02:29:16,920
Speaker 1: see the Wikipedia as being kind of susceptible to like

2568
02:29:17,040 --> 02:29:22,879
Speaker 1: intentional disinformation campaigns of people slowly kind of editing the

2569
02:29:23,000 --> 02:29:26,920
Speaker 1: ideology of of articles to to push kind of some agenda.

2570
02:29:27,040 --> 02:29:29,240
Speaker 1: What whether that be like individually and like like you know,

2571
02:29:29,520 --> 02:29:32,360
Speaker 1: more of like a crowd operation um or even like

2572
02:29:32,760 --> 02:29:36,039
Speaker 1: run by like people with political power, um. Like do

2573
02:29:36,040 --> 02:29:38,039
Speaker 1: do you how much of a risk do you see

2574
02:29:38,080 --> 02:29:40,000
Speaker 1: that with this kind of open source idea is that's

2575
02:29:40,360 --> 02:29:44,840
Speaker 1: of of like intentional slow dissemination of disinformation on like

2576
02:29:45,120 --> 02:29:49,640
Speaker 1: important articles and stuff. Well, so I think I might

2577
02:29:49,720 --> 02:29:54,520
Speaker 1: reframe your question a little bit like, uh, all open

2578
02:29:54,600 --> 02:29:58,560
Speaker 1: source kind of knowledge spaces are susceptible to that, right. Um.

2579
02:29:58,600 --> 02:30:02,879
Speaker 1: The question is to like what degree and how harmful

2580
02:30:03,440 --> 02:30:07,119
Speaker 1: is it going to be? Right? Um, like is it

2581
02:30:07,200 --> 02:30:09,959
Speaker 1: is it like very open to this and will it

2582
02:30:10,160 --> 02:30:14,039
Speaker 1: cause a lot of problems? Um, the bigger language wikipedias

2583
02:30:14,120 --> 02:30:17,320
Speaker 1: have healthy immune systems, but we we have a combination

2584
02:30:17,320 --> 02:30:20,160
Speaker 1: of kind of bots that are like AI generated that

2585
02:30:20,240 --> 02:30:22,320
Speaker 1: flag bag edits, and then we have a lot of

2586
02:30:22,320 --> 02:30:25,560
Speaker 1: community patrolling happening. And even in some of the smaller

2587
02:30:25,600 --> 02:30:30,240
Speaker 1: communities that have like medium sized editor communities, like Swedish Wikipedia,

2588
02:30:31,000 --> 02:30:34,119
Speaker 1: it doesn't take a lot for that local language community

2589
02:30:34,200 --> 02:30:38,840
Speaker 1: to patrol the pages and like be like oh okay, um,

2590
02:30:38,920 --> 02:30:42,080
Speaker 1: these changes are kind of weird. I can roll it back, Um,

2591
02:30:42,240 --> 02:30:46,000
Speaker 1: like this doesn't seem like it fits our culture of Wikipedia.

2592
02:30:46,440 --> 02:30:50,000
Speaker 1: The problem is when a language Wikipedia has very few

2593
02:30:50,160 --> 02:30:54,800
Speaker 1: editors and they're not active all the time. Um, And

2594
02:30:54,800 --> 02:30:58,600
Speaker 1: and so this is where we need kind of more

2595
02:30:58,680 --> 02:31:01,920
Speaker 1: eyes on the content, right because it's it's very easy

2596
02:31:02,000 --> 02:31:05,160
Speaker 1: for like a really small language community to kind of

2597
02:31:05,480 --> 02:31:08,279
Speaker 1: have a little bit of content but never see it maintained.

2598
02:31:08,840 --> 02:31:12,520
Speaker 1: Um And and this is where the like where where

2599
02:31:12,600 --> 02:31:15,240
Speaker 1: our communities are forming around these languages, like a lot

2600
02:31:15,280 --> 02:31:18,680
Speaker 1: of the West African languages for example, that our communities

2601
02:31:18,840 --> 02:31:22,320
Speaker 1: are are kind of organizing in we we like invest

2602
02:31:22,360 --> 02:31:26,080
Speaker 1: in those communities existing and like figuring out the governance

2603
02:31:26,200 --> 02:31:28,680
Speaker 1: and training people how to edit and getting access to

2604
02:31:28,720 --> 02:31:31,800
Speaker 1: the kind of technical skills to do this. Um. And

2605
02:31:32,120 --> 02:31:35,840
Speaker 1: you know, we have kind of systems that we're hoping

2606
02:31:36,000 --> 02:31:38,879
Speaker 1: over the next few years invest in that resilience, right,

2607
02:31:39,000 --> 02:31:41,720
Speaker 1: like building a code of conduct making it easier for

2608
02:31:41,760 --> 02:31:45,120
Speaker 1: communities to see this kind of stuff. But it is

2609
02:31:45,200 --> 02:31:50,560
Speaker 1: three languages, right, um yeah, And it is a volunteer

2610
02:31:50,760 --> 02:31:55,960
Speaker 1: built system, and you do need a healthy editatorial community

2611
02:31:56,000 --> 02:32:00,720
Speaker 1: in order to keep a wiki from like drifting too much. UM.

2612
02:32:00,760 --> 02:32:03,200
Speaker 1: So a good example of listening to get a reference

2613
02:32:03,280 --> 02:32:06,360
Speaker 1: creation because it's the one we've done research on, Like

2614
02:32:06,920 --> 02:32:11,600
Speaker 1: it was possible for a few people to push people

2615
02:32:11,680 --> 02:32:15,840
Speaker 1: who are more in consensus with the global position on

2616
02:32:15,959 --> 02:32:21,440
Speaker 1: various topics out of the wiki. Um. And that's just

2617
02:32:21,879 --> 02:32:25,520
Speaker 1: like we we have to find a balance between like

2618
02:32:25,840 --> 02:32:29,280
Speaker 1: local language. Uh and this is my personal opinion, right,

2619
02:32:29,640 --> 02:32:31,880
Speaker 1: we need to find a balance between kind of local

2620
02:32:31,920 --> 02:32:38,439
Speaker 1: language sovereignty on this stuff and also not like radicalizing

2621
02:32:39,520 --> 02:32:41,920
Speaker 1: its topical environment. And we and we see this particularly

2622
02:32:41,920 --> 02:32:45,600
Speaker 1: on impactful topics, right, like ones that directly affect like

2623
02:32:46,040 --> 02:32:50,920
Speaker 1: politics or in the kids climate crisis, like people's livelihoods

2624
02:32:51,040 --> 02:32:55,680
Speaker 1: and ability to function in society, right. Um And we

2625
02:32:55,800 --> 02:32:57,879
Speaker 1: just like we need to be cautious about that. But

2626
02:32:57,879 --> 02:33:01,080
Speaker 1: but you know, Wikipedia is a common resource. Uh. And

2627
02:33:01,120 --> 02:33:04,039
Speaker 1: I think this is really important. Like the way Wikipedia

2628
02:33:04,120 --> 02:33:07,439
Speaker 1: works is you know, the Wikimmunitia Foundation provides the servers,

2629
02:33:07,520 --> 02:33:10,080
Speaker 1: We fund our communities, we support them, we help them

2630
02:33:10,440 --> 02:33:15,080
Speaker 1: work through governance issues. But like the we need editorial

2631
02:33:15,080 --> 02:33:19,600
Speaker 1: communities to maintain it. That's what those two thousand people

2632
02:33:20,560 --> 02:33:24,120
Speaker 1: are doing as volunteers as they're building an editorial practice

2633
02:33:24,160 --> 02:33:28,120
Speaker 1: that makes the content work. Um. And and we we

2634
02:33:28,160 --> 02:33:31,560
Speaker 1: need that um. And so we need you know, like

2635
02:33:31,680 --> 02:33:35,400
Speaker 1: minded communities like the people for your podcasts who are like, oh,

2636
02:33:35,440 --> 02:33:38,000
Speaker 1: we need the Internet to be reliable and have accurate

2637
02:33:38,040 --> 02:33:40,720
Speaker 1: information a lot to show up um. Because if we

2638
02:33:40,720 --> 02:33:44,680
Speaker 1: don't do that, it's it's really like it's the common

2639
02:33:44,720 --> 02:33:49,840
Speaker 1: resource we we we have a decent international listening MACE

2640
02:33:49,920 --> 02:33:53,400
Speaker 1: as well. UM, and I'm thinking like, what would would

2641
02:33:53,440 --> 02:33:56,440
Speaker 1: you like recommend people you know in different countries or

2642
02:33:56,440 --> 02:33:59,879
Speaker 1: even people inside inside kind of like, uh, you know

2643
02:34:00,120 --> 02:34:04,360
Speaker 1: the States, America, Canada, the UK who are like multi langual,

2644
02:34:04,400 --> 02:34:07,640
Speaker 1: would you at least encourage them to browse other language

2645
02:34:07,640 --> 02:34:10,400
Speaker 1: wikipedias and maybe start making edits when they see this

2646
02:34:10,440 --> 02:34:15,600
Speaker 1: type of misinformation popping up. Yeah, so I to kind

2647
02:34:15,600 --> 02:34:19,720
Speaker 1: of perspectives on this one. Um, look for a local

2648
02:34:19,879 --> 02:34:23,039
Speaker 1: organized community. So we we have what's called Wikimedia Affiliates.

2649
02:34:23,120 --> 02:34:28,240
Speaker 1: These are fifty organizations around the world. They regularly run events,

2650
02:34:28,680 --> 02:34:32,880
Speaker 1: especially now that we're leaving COVID, increasingly more in person events.

2651
02:34:32,879 --> 02:34:36,600
Speaker 1: They trained folks like look for them in your context

2652
02:34:37,040 --> 02:34:39,360
Speaker 1: and if you need help finding, you know, find me

2653
02:34:39,400 --> 02:34:43,680
Speaker 1: on Twitter and I can connect you with those communities. Um.

2654
02:34:43,920 --> 02:34:47,039
Speaker 1: And the other part is small edits. So I think

2655
02:34:47,080 --> 02:34:49,400
Speaker 1: a lot of people look at Wikipedia and they think

2656
02:34:49,440 --> 02:34:53,480
Speaker 1: about like a traditional publishing platform, right like, oh, you

2657
02:34:53,520 --> 02:34:56,280
Speaker 1: know I have to write the whole whole article. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

2658
02:34:56,280 --> 02:34:58,400
Speaker 1: I have to be a master. And and the secret

2659
02:34:58,440 --> 02:35:01,200
Speaker 1: sauce to all of this is most people start with

2660
02:35:01,280 --> 02:35:04,960
Speaker 1: one citation, one comma, one type of fix, and they

2661
02:35:05,000 --> 02:35:08,040
Speaker 1: do a handful of those a month, and then they

2662
02:35:08,120 --> 02:35:10,400
Speaker 1: keep coming back. And as you do those small edits,

2663
02:35:10,400 --> 02:35:12,959
Speaker 1: you start reading the content more carefully and fixing the

2664
02:35:13,000 --> 02:35:16,840
Speaker 1: things you can fix. And so I recommend going in

2665
02:35:16,879 --> 02:35:19,680
Speaker 1: to like add one citation. Like if you go and

2666
02:35:19,720 --> 02:35:22,920
Speaker 1: add one citation today, that like makes life better, or

2667
02:35:22,959 --> 02:35:27,040
Speaker 1: you fix the communication on the sentence. UM. The other

2668
02:35:27,080 --> 02:35:29,360
Speaker 1: part of it is, you know, I said, there's these

2669
02:35:29,440 --> 02:35:33,039
Speaker 1: organized groups, uh for the climate in particular, I run

2670
02:35:33,080 --> 02:35:36,560
Speaker 1: this campaign called Wiki for Human Rights, which is focused

2671
02:35:36,640 --> 02:35:40,480
Speaker 1: on UM. We with it's a theme that we kind

2672
02:35:40,480 --> 02:35:42,520
Speaker 1: of identified with you and human rights on the right

2673
02:35:42,600 --> 02:35:46,040
Speaker 1: to a healthy environment, which is this new human right

2674
02:35:46,280 --> 02:35:49,440
Speaker 1: that has been acknowledged by the Human Rights Council. And

2675
02:35:49,480 --> 02:35:53,520
Speaker 1: we're we're organizing kind of writing contests and editor the

2676
02:35:53,520 --> 02:35:56,320
Speaker 1: fons and kind of train names for communities to go

2677
02:35:56,360 --> 02:35:59,000
Speaker 1: and look for the human dimension of the climate crisis.

2678
02:35:59,000 --> 02:36:02,120
Speaker 1: So I think when we think about climate communication, a

2679
02:36:02,120 --> 02:36:04,800
Speaker 1: lot of people are like science right there, like, oh,

2680
02:36:04,920 --> 02:36:08,000
Speaker 1: this is you know about how weather systems work and

2681
02:36:08,760 --> 02:36:12,039
Speaker 1: how the atmosphere it forms, and the kind of stuff

2682
02:36:12,440 --> 02:36:16,440
Speaker 1: and the content that's more impactful. Is this like human

2683
02:36:16,480 --> 02:36:19,879
Speaker 1: inflected stuff like how does the climate crisis in fact

2684
02:36:20,800 --> 02:36:24,520
Speaker 1: you as an individual and agriculture in the cities you

2685
02:36:24,560 --> 02:36:28,760
Speaker 1: live in, and the clothing you buy in the manufactured

2686
02:36:28,840 --> 02:36:33,600
Speaker 1: goods in mine around the corner that's producing water pollution

2687
02:36:33,959 --> 02:36:38,160
Speaker 1: that's gonna harm your children for the next thirty years, right, um,

2688
02:36:38,240 --> 02:36:41,200
Speaker 1: and and that is the kind of stuff that we're

2689
02:36:41,280 --> 02:36:43,920
Speaker 1: encouraging communities to pay attention to. Is it is more

2690
02:36:44,000 --> 02:36:50,240
Speaker 1: the like justice and human rights oriented perspective on these topics?

2691
02:36:50,400 --> 02:36:53,720
Speaker 1: And your cat is very cute. Every once in a

2692
02:36:53,760 --> 02:36:59,000
Speaker 1: while they love to love to take the camera. Um

2693
02:36:59,080 --> 02:37:02,400
Speaker 1: and so yeah. So, so if you follow me on Twitter,

2694
02:37:02,520 --> 02:37:04,800
Speaker 1: I will I can hook you up with that campaign

2695
02:37:04,959 --> 02:37:08,760
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah. Yeah. Where where can people find you

2696
02:37:09,040 --> 02:37:11,879
Speaker 1: online and to learn more information about, you know, the

2697
02:37:11,959 --> 02:37:15,879
Speaker 1: various kind of topics we've discussed today. So, um, search

2698
02:37:16,320 --> 02:37:20,440
Speaker 1: if you're interested in climate change stuff on Wikipedia English.

2699
02:37:20,440 --> 02:37:24,480
Speaker 1: Wikipedia has a wonderful wiki project climate change that has

2700
02:37:24,520 --> 02:37:26,879
Speaker 1: a little tab at the So if you search wiki

2701
02:37:26,920 --> 02:37:30,360
Speaker 1: project climate change on Google and you find there's a

2702
02:37:30,400 --> 02:37:32,680
Speaker 1: tab at the top that says get started with easy

2703
02:37:32,840 --> 02:37:35,480
Speaker 1: edits and that kind of can get you oriented to like,

2704
02:37:35,640 --> 02:37:39,520
Speaker 1: where can you affect English Wikipedia on this? And you know,

2705
02:37:39,600 --> 02:37:41,600
Speaker 1: once you find a gap on English, it's easy to

2706
02:37:41,680 --> 02:37:45,360
Speaker 1: find it on other languages. UM. For the kind of

2707
02:37:45,480 --> 02:37:47,640
Speaker 1: learning about Wiki free human rights, you can search for

2708
02:37:47,680 --> 02:37:51,240
Speaker 1: that um and or follow me on Twitter. UM s

2709
02:37:51,280 --> 02:37:55,920
Speaker 1: A D A D S sad ads on Twitter. Um. Uh.

2710
02:37:56,160 --> 02:37:59,640
Speaker 1: We also have a group called Wikimedians for Sustainable Development

2711
02:38:00,280 --> 02:38:02,960
Speaker 1: who's kind of communicating on Twitter, which is the group

2712
02:38:03,080 --> 02:38:07,160
Speaker 1: that's really focused on sustainability topics more generally. UM. And

2713
02:38:07,320 --> 02:38:11,240
Speaker 1: you know, the other way to look is find something

2714
02:38:11,280 --> 02:38:14,359
Speaker 1: you've been reading about about the climate crisis or sustainability

2715
02:38:14,360 --> 02:38:18,400
Speaker 1: issues in the news. Look it up on Wikipedia. See

2716
02:38:18,400 --> 02:38:21,480
Speaker 1: if it's missing. UM. If it's not, click that edit

2717
02:38:21,520 --> 02:38:25,080
Speaker 1: button at a sence. Right. UM. The good example of this,

2718
02:38:25,720 --> 02:38:30,000
Speaker 1: I learned about a park and uh the center of

2719
02:38:30,080 --> 02:38:33,920
Speaker 1: Nairobi that's being protested by environmental activists because some of

2720
02:38:33,920 --> 02:38:39,360
Speaker 1: the big trees were being cut down a Huru park. Right. Uh.

2721
02:38:39,480 --> 02:38:42,360
Speaker 1: This came by on my Twitter handle, Like I'm not

2722
02:38:42,520 --> 02:38:46,600
Speaker 1: connected to this at the moment, right, UM, But because

2723
02:38:46,640 --> 02:38:49,120
Speaker 1: I had news sources, I had three or four news sources,

2724
02:38:49,160 --> 02:38:51,440
Speaker 1: I could say really simply in two thousand one the

2725
02:38:51,440 --> 02:38:55,560
Speaker 1: park came under scrutiny for renovation that included removing old trees.

2726
02:38:56,160 --> 02:39:00,880
Speaker 1: That's a climate action, right uh. And I think you know,

2727
02:39:01,720 --> 02:39:05,000
Speaker 1: I am constantly overwhelmed by the climate crisis, as as

2728
02:39:05,240 --> 02:39:09,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people. Yeah yeah, And and like just

2729
02:39:09,120 --> 02:39:15,199
Speaker 1: being able to tell that little story, like hey, um,

2730
02:39:15,400 --> 02:39:19,680
Speaker 1: the decisions people are making are not productive here, right Um.

2731
02:39:19,720 --> 02:39:23,640
Speaker 1: Just just gathering that story is important. And what's important

2732
02:39:23,680 --> 02:39:26,760
Speaker 1: is Wikipedia plays institutional memory on this, right. I feel

2733
02:39:26,760 --> 02:39:29,080
Speaker 1: like you know, a lot of a lot of activists

2734
02:39:29,080 --> 02:39:31,920
Speaker 1: work is very temporal. It's very like in that moment,

2735
02:39:32,120 --> 02:39:35,440
Speaker 1: right um. And if it doesn't get documented on Wikipedia,

2736
02:39:35,959 --> 02:39:38,320
Speaker 1: the local news sources are gonna get lost in the

2737
02:39:38,320 --> 02:39:43,480
Speaker 1: wind of time. Um. And so I think you know,

2738
02:39:43,520 --> 02:39:46,320
Speaker 1: if you to do your little activist motion, like a

2739
02:39:46,440 --> 02:39:51,440
Speaker 1: sentence describing what happened in a moment where resistance was happening,

2740
02:39:51,959 --> 02:39:55,280
Speaker 1: is like a huge step forward, right um, because it

2741
02:39:55,520 --> 02:39:59,920
Speaker 1: connects the environmental crisis, climate crisis, human rights issues too,

2742
02:40:00,480 --> 02:40:03,440
Speaker 1: like daily lives. Like people look up this park probably

2743
02:40:03,640 --> 02:40:06,720
Speaker 1: on Google because they want to go there, right or

2744
02:40:06,800 --> 02:40:09,280
Speaker 1: they read about it because people are like when was

2745
02:40:09,320 --> 02:40:12,680
Speaker 1: it created? What was that protest that happened? There the

2746
02:40:12,680 --> 02:40:15,879
Speaker 1: other day. And if those sourcesn't there, um, then it

2747
02:40:15,920 --> 02:40:18,480
Speaker 1: doesn't really exist in their minds. Yeah, it doesn't exist

2748
02:40:18,480 --> 02:40:21,280
Speaker 1: in their minds. And I think that's like one of

2749
02:40:21,320 --> 02:40:24,760
Speaker 1: the big issues with climate crisis, and you know, amplified

2750
02:40:24,800 --> 02:40:29,160
Speaker 1: even worse in other languages, right, is that people aren't

2751
02:40:29,160 --> 02:40:32,400
Speaker 1: making that connection. They aren't seeing it around them, and

2752
02:40:32,440 --> 02:40:36,640
Speaker 1: they're not you know, kind of connecting action to how

2753
02:40:36,680 --> 02:40:41,440
Speaker 1: we address it. That. Uh, that is a really good

2754
02:40:41,600 --> 02:40:43,080
Speaker 1: that's a really good point. And yeah, I mean I

2755
02:40:43,120 --> 02:40:46,720
Speaker 1: will encourage everybody to to start making small leddits. That's

2756
02:40:46,760 --> 02:40:49,080
Speaker 1: what's what I did for a long time before I

2757
02:40:49,120 --> 02:40:53,920
Speaker 1: moved into like open source um journalism and reporting. It's

2758
02:40:53,959 --> 02:40:55,959
Speaker 1: a great way to get started, and it's a great

2759
02:40:55,959 --> 02:40:58,760
Speaker 1: way to get just start start disseminating small bits of

2760
02:40:58,760 --> 02:41:00,600
Speaker 1: information because the only thing that we can really do

2761
02:41:00,640 --> 02:41:04,240
Speaker 1: is people is small steps. We can have like an

2762
02:41:04,280 --> 02:41:07,200
Speaker 1: adaptive goal in mind, but you need to take small

2763
02:41:07,240 --> 02:41:10,840
Speaker 1: steps to get there. And that is a really great

2764
02:41:10,840 --> 02:41:15,000
Speaker 1: way to start influencing the way people think about climate

2765
02:41:15,200 --> 02:41:19,320
Speaker 1: and our situation. Um. Yeah, And and I think too,

2766
02:41:19,440 --> 02:41:21,879
Speaker 1: you know, your your podcast kind of appeals to folks

2767
02:41:21,879 --> 02:41:24,840
Speaker 1: who are interested in like finding the truth and reality, right,

2768
02:41:24,879 --> 02:41:29,800
Speaker 1: and that that's that's like that that investigation is what

2769
02:41:29,959 --> 02:41:34,679
Speaker 1: a Wikipedia article is. It is like one ten hundred

2770
02:41:35,000 --> 02:41:37,119
Speaker 1: editors out there in the world trying to go like,

2771
02:41:37,280 --> 02:41:40,320
Speaker 1: what the heck is this topic about? Right? How do

2772
02:41:40,400 --> 02:41:44,400
Speaker 1: I compile my notes? Uh in a way that helps

2773
02:41:44,400 --> 02:41:46,080
Speaker 1: other people? And I think in the face of the

2774
02:41:46,080 --> 02:41:49,880
Speaker 1: climate crisis, Dr Ianna Johnson says, like, find the thing

2775
02:41:49,920 --> 02:41:52,200
Speaker 1: you're good at, find the thing you're passionate about, and

2776
02:41:52,200 --> 02:41:54,720
Speaker 1: find the thing that like or that that makes you

2777
02:41:54,760 --> 02:41:57,920
Speaker 1: feel good and you're you're just rewarding, And find the

2778
02:41:57,959 --> 02:42:01,640
Speaker 1: thing that actually like helps affect the climate crisis. Right,

2779
02:42:01,720 --> 02:42:04,760
Speaker 1: And a small idn'ta on Wikipedia meets your kind of

2780
02:42:04,959 --> 02:42:08,720
Speaker 1: knowledge needs. It's very satisfying because people will read it

2781
02:42:09,240 --> 02:42:13,400
Speaker 1: and it is incriminal change in the right direction, right,

2782
02:42:13,800 --> 02:42:18,000
Speaker 1: people will make decisions on it. Uh. Yeah, I mean,

2783
02:42:18,080 --> 02:42:19,879
Speaker 1: and I guess uh, I think that I think that

2784
02:42:19,959 --> 02:42:23,200
Speaker 1: probably closes this up today and let's see anything else

2785
02:42:23,240 --> 02:42:26,119
Speaker 1: to add. Um, I guess one more plug for your

2786
02:42:26,120 --> 02:42:29,400
Speaker 1: Twitter so we can get get more eyeballs on you.

2787
02:42:29,640 --> 02:42:32,960
Speaker 1: Um and the work that you're doing. Yeah, um so

2788
02:42:33,080 --> 02:42:37,680
Speaker 1: at S A D A D S. It's my long

2789
02:42:37,800 --> 02:42:41,600
Speaker 1: term handle on the internet and you you can find

2790
02:42:41,600 --> 02:42:45,440
Speaker 1: me Oliver Plate uh and I tweet about Wikipedia on

2791
02:42:45,480 --> 02:42:48,879
Speaker 1: the climate crisis. Will and we'll we'll link the Wikipedia

2792
02:42:49,640 --> 02:42:52,959
Speaker 1: wiki project climate change page in the description for people

2793
02:42:53,000 --> 02:42:55,480
Speaker 1: to find. Thank you so much for taking time to

2794
02:42:56,040 --> 02:43:00,400
Speaker 1: talk to us all about these topics. I'm really really great, uh,

2795
02:43:00,800 --> 02:43:04,879
Speaker 1: really grateful to have this type of knowledge readily accessible

2796
02:43:04,920 --> 02:43:08,400
Speaker 1: to more people. Also, you know, in the spirit of Wikipedia.

2797
02:43:09,080 --> 02:43:12,760
Speaker 1: Thanks so thank you so much. Um. You can follow

2798
02:43:12,879 --> 02:43:16,160
Speaker 1: us by subscribing to the feed and on Twitter, Instagram

2799
02:43:16,200 --> 02:43:19,400
Speaker 1: at Happened Here pod and cool Zone Media. See you

2800
02:43:19,440 --> 02:43:43,600
Speaker 1: on the other side, everybody. It's could happen Here? That's

2801
02:43:43,640 --> 02:43:49,160
Speaker 1: the podcast that this is. It's about things crumbling and uh,

2802
02:43:49,440 --> 02:43:52,080
Speaker 1: how to maybe uncrumble some of the things that are crumbling.

2803
02:43:52,080 --> 02:43:54,840
Speaker 1: And today when we think about the crumbles, when you

2804
02:43:54,840 --> 02:43:58,320
Speaker 1: start thinking about the hell world that that we're all

2805
02:43:58,360 --> 02:44:01,800
Speaker 1: increasingly inhappening, the scar y ship that is getting scarier

2806
02:44:01,879 --> 02:44:04,040
Speaker 1: day by day. Number one on a lot of people's

2807
02:44:04,040 --> 02:44:08,520
Speaker 1: list is going to be the cops um real cause

2808
02:44:08,520 --> 02:44:11,000
Speaker 1: of anxiety for a significant chunk of people listening to

2809
02:44:11,040 --> 02:44:15,400
Speaker 1: this podcast right now, including its hosts, Um Alexander you

2810
02:44:15,440 --> 02:44:17,920
Speaker 1: and I have chatted before on the air. Our guest

2811
02:44:17,959 --> 02:44:22,760
Speaker 1: today Alexander Williams, Um, you were a police officer in

2812
02:44:22,800 --> 02:44:25,119
Speaker 1: the past and you are not currently and you want

2813
02:44:25,160 --> 02:44:29,840
Speaker 1: to chat about Um the topic kind of the way

2814
02:44:29,840 --> 02:44:31,680
Speaker 1: you pitched it to us is there's a lot of

2815
02:44:31,760 --> 02:44:37,000
Speaker 1: aspects of police training that are very similar to what

2816
02:44:37,080 --> 02:44:39,720
Speaker 1: colts do to indoctrinate people, and you kind of wanted

2817
02:44:39,760 --> 02:44:41,720
Speaker 1: to speak on that. Yeah, there's a lot of there's

2818
02:44:41,760 --> 02:44:45,400
Speaker 1: a lot of cross sections. Um, so, yeah, I used

2819
02:44:45,400 --> 02:44:47,240
Speaker 1: to be a cop. I was in law enforcement for

2820
02:44:47,959 --> 02:44:51,080
Speaker 1: just shot at fifteen years until I woke up and

2821
02:44:51,120 --> 02:44:55,200
Speaker 1: got out luckily, and uh, all the stuff that's been

2822
02:44:55,200 --> 02:44:57,440
Speaker 1: going on over the last couple of years, and the

2823
02:44:57,480 --> 02:45:03,520
Speaker 1: craziness and really ingesting a lot of stuff around, you know, cults,

2824
02:45:03,879 --> 02:45:06,959
Speaker 1: and I started going down that the little checklist that

2825
02:45:07,000 --> 02:45:08,560
Speaker 1: you go down of like are you in a high

2826
02:45:08,560 --> 02:45:12,959
Speaker 1: control group? And man, they all just look just deinged

2827
02:45:12,959 --> 02:45:15,000
Speaker 1: in my head every single time of like, oh, this

2828
02:45:15,080 --> 02:45:17,000
Speaker 1: is exactly what it was like being a cop. Oh,

2829
02:45:17,080 --> 02:45:18,800
Speaker 1: this is exactly what it was like being a cop.

2830
02:45:19,320 --> 02:45:22,320
Speaker 1: And I'm curious, kind of before we get more into it,

2831
02:45:22,680 --> 02:45:24,120
Speaker 1: do you want to walk us through a little bit

2832
02:45:24,160 --> 02:45:28,400
Speaker 1: more kind of what was your process of UM, I know,

2833
02:45:28,400 --> 02:45:30,879
Speaker 1: de radicalization isn't exactly the right term, but I think

2834
02:45:30,879 --> 02:45:32,520
Speaker 1: you know what I'm getting. It's it's in the it's

2835
02:45:32,520 --> 02:45:37,400
Speaker 1: in the it's in the neighborhood shore. Yeah. Mine. So

2836
02:45:37,480 --> 02:45:40,600
Speaker 1: I was raising a cop family. My dad was a copy,

2837
02:45:40,800 --> 02:45:44,520
Speaker 1: went the whole nine yards, retirement, the whole thing. And

2838
02:45:46,240 --> 02:45:49,440
Speaker 1: when I got into it, just shy of twenty two

2839
02:45:49,520 --> 02:45:53,240
Speaker 1: years old, which that's young to be making these kinds

2840
02:45:53,280 --> 02:45:57,000
Speaker 1: of choices looking back on it. Um. We had talked

2841
02:45:57,040 --> 02:46:01,400
Speaker 1: on the last podcast of your season one, UM about

2842
02:46:01,400 --> 02:46:05,000
Speaker 1: when my brother got arrested and got beat by my

2843
02:46:05,040 --> 02:46:07,920
Speaker 1: own team, my my own crew, and the jail that

2844
02:46:07,959 --> 02:46:10,480
Speaker 1: I worked with, which is the jails is where I

2845
02:46:10,560 --> 02:46:14,360
Speaker 1: primarily spent most of my time. And I think that

2846
02:46:14,360 --> 02:46:18,520
Speaker 1: that was, uh, item number one kind of on my shelf,

2847
02:46:18,640 --> 02:46:20,920
Speaker 1: like people call it. That's that's that's a big one

2848
02:46:20,920 --> 02:46:25,959
Speaker 1: to right on the shelf. Um. And during my training,

2849
02:46:26,400 --> 02:46:29,560
Speaker 1: I've always been an obstinate little bastard and I've always

2850
02:46:29,600 --> 02:46:34,040
Speaker 1: had that kind of like authority defiance. And in training

2851
02:46:34,120 --> 02:46:36,360
Speaker 1: they say start telling you really early, like hey, you

2852
02:46:36,360 --> 02:46:39,560
Speaker 1: know what you know where your family we understand you,

2853
02:46:39,600 --> 02:46:42,320
Speaker 1: We're going to get you. And then like the language

2854
02:46:42,360 --> 02:46:45,320
Speaker 1: even then kind of flared red flags wrong for me.

2855
02:46:46,320 --> 02:46:49,480
Speaker 1: And whenever a group of people says we're your family,

2856
02:46:49,760 --> 02:46:53,360
Speaker 1: and so right, like that's what you like, we're your

2857
02:46:53,400 --> 02:46:56,360
Speaker 1: family and you can talk to us anytime. Fine, we're

2858
02:46:56,360 --> 02:46:59,119
Speaker 1: your family and I got your back. Fine, we're your family,

2859
02:46:59,200 --> 02:47:02,040
Speaker 1: and that's why you need to do this. Things have

2860
02:47:02,200 --> 02:47:04,560
Speaker 1: got to ride. It's it's it usually is where your

2861
02:47:04,600 --> 02:47:10,920
Speaker 1: family comma now? Yeah? Yeah? And yes. So that that

2862
02:47:11,040 --> 02:47:14,080
Speaker 1: was like literally day one, it was where your family now,

2863
02:47:14,120 --> 02:47:16,000
Speaker 1: where you're you know, they use all that language, the

2864
02:47:16,080 --> 02:47:20,920
Speaker 1: familiar language, where your brothers, your sisters. Yeah. And the

2865
02:47:20,920 --> 02:47:24,520
Speaker 1: one that kicked for me and my brain was they said,

2866
02:47:24,560 --> 02:47:27,440
Speaker 1: within a year, you're not gonna have any friends that

2867
02:47:27,560 --> 02:47:31,120
Speaker 1: aren't cops, Like all of your civilian friends are going

2868
02:47:31,160 --> 02:47:34,560
Speaker 1: to be gone because they're not gonna understand you and

2869
02:47:34,600 --> 02:47:36,080
Speaker 1: they're not going to be able to be around you

2870
02:47:36,120 --> 02:47:39,480
Speaker 1: and handle you. So within a year, you know, we're

2871
02:47:39,480 --> 02:47:42,080
Speaker 1: going to be everything you've got. And for me, that

2872
02:47:42,240 --> 02:47:44,000
Speaker 1: was like that was a line in the sand, and

2873
02:47:44,120 --> 02:47:46,119
Speaker 1: like part of my brain was screaming like nope, never

2874
02:47:46,200 --> 02:47:50,400
Speaker 1: letting that happen. I will not let my uh myself

2875
02:47:50,440 --> 02:47:53,959
Speaker 1: not have any non cop friends. Yeah, that's probably good

2876
02:47:53,959 --> 02:47:56,480
Speaker 1: because that's I mean, you have like when it it

2877
02:47:56,520 --> 02:47:58,920
Speaker 1: gets to it's the same thing that happens to anybody, right,

2878
02:47:58,959 --> 02:48:01,720
Speaker 1: like some people got like last year in Portland and

2879
02:48:01,920 --> 02:48:04,119
Speaker 1: Activist Brain where there was this all the people were

2880
02:48:04,120 --> 02:48:06,400
Speaker 1: spending time with other people were out protesting, and so

2881
02:48:06,440 --> 02:48:09,160
Speaker 1: we have this really intense bond and we also are

2882
02:48:09,240 --> 02:48:12,520
Speaker 1: kind of separated, increasingly separated from the people around us

2883
02:48:12,520 --> 02:48:15,720
Speaker 1: because we just can't communicate with anybody else. And that

2884
02:48:15,959 --> 02:48:17,879
Speaker 1: kind of going on for years and years, because this

2885
02:48:17,959 --> 02:48:20,720
Speaker 1: is your career for twenty something years, and it's like, yeah,

2886
02:48:20,800 --> 02:48:23,520
Speaker 1: that would you'd be, you'd be after a couple of

2887
02:48:23,560 --> 02:48:26,280
Speaker 1: years of that you were inhabiting a different planet. They

2888
02:48:26,360 --> 02:48:29,400
Speaker 1: really are. And it's the how you said that, like,

2889
02:48:29,440 --> 02:48:32,560
Speaker 1: you know, this is usually twenty to thirty years, you know,

2890
02:48:32,680 --> 02:48:34,640
Speaker 1: because you want to get that sweet retirement at the

2891
02:48:34,720 --> 02:48:37,920
Speaker 1: end after you've abused your mind and your body for

2892
02:48:38,000 --> 02:48:41,640
Speaker 1: three decades um. It was keyed off something that you

2893
02:48:41,680 --> 02:48:44,560
Speaker 1: and Garrison talked about in a previous episode of The

2894
02:48:44,640 --> 02:48:48,920
Speaker 1: Hiring Practices where the Washington Stay guys and they were

2895
02:48:49,120 --> 02:48:52,959
Speaker 1: they got busted because the therapist was showing tons of bias.

2896
02:48:53,040 --> 02:48:57,680
Speaker 1: And that brought up for me the hiring process because

2897
02:48:57,720 --> 02:49:02,160
Speaker 1: those psyche exams are the only time as a cop

2898
02:49:02,240 --> 02:49:04,039
Speaker 1: did you get a psych exam? That's the only time

2899
02:49:04,040 --> 02:49:09,600
Speaker 1: you ever talked to a therapist mandatorially. Yeah that's not great. Yeah,

2900
02:49:09,600 --> 02:49:11,800
Speaker 1: it's a really bad move. And there's a joke in

2901
02:49:11,879 --> 02:49:15,160
Speaker 1: cop culture of like, well, yeah, you gotta pass it

2902
02:49:15,200 --> 02:49:17,280
Speaker 1: before you get hired, because after you get hired, you're

2903
02:49:17,320 --> 02:49:21,400
Speaker 1: never going to pass that test. Mm hmm, because you know,

2904
02:49:21,600 --> 02:49:24,960
Speaker 1: being a cop is is micro dosing PTSD and your

2905
02:49:25,000 --> 02:49:30,440
Speaker 1: system the entire time. See, I guess one thing I'm

2906
02:49:30,440 --> 02:49:32,520
Speaker 1: wondering because you you were in it for fifteen years,

2907
02:49:32,520 --> 02:49:35,640
Speaker 1: so that's that's not an insignificant span of time. Has

2908
02:49:35,680 --> 02:49:38,960
Speaker 1: it gotten to be more that way? Because I knew

2909
02:49:40,000 --> 02:49:43,040
Speaker 1: about fifteen something years ago when I was like eighteen nineteen,

2910
02:49:43,160 --> 02:49:45,359
Speaker 1: just like I lived in the shitty little apartment complex,

2911
02:49:45,400 --> 02:49:47,800
Speaker 1: and like the dude who live below above me, and

2912
02:49:47,800 --> 02:49:49,440
Speaker 1: then like the dude who lived two doors down, we're

2913
02:49:49,440 --> 02:49:54,920
Speaker 1: both Dallas cops um, and I don't know, like I

2914
02:49:55,040 --> 02:49:57,360
Speaker 1: you know, I was not particularly political at that point,

2915
02:49:57,400 --> 02:49:59,840
Speaker 1: but I didn't. They didn't seem to have trouble relating,

2916
02:49:59,840 --> 02:50:02,040
Speaker 1: like they would hang out and ship after work, like

2917
02:50:02,920 --> 02:50:05,600
Speaker 1: just like not like like we would be like barbecuing

2918
02:50:05,640 --> 02:50:07,440
Speaker 1: outside and they would drop by and stuff, and it

2919
02:50:07,440 --> 02:50:09,040
Speaker 1: was never I never got the sense that they were

2920
02:50:09,080 --> 02:50:11,199
Speaker 1: living in a separate planet. But this is like fifteen

2921
02:50:11,280 --> 02:50:14,160
Speaker 1: years ago, and I'm wondering what to what extent do

2922
02:50:14,160 --> 02:50:17,600
Speaker 1: you think this is kind of increased in recent memory,

2923
02:50:17,720 --> 02:50:23,880
Speaker 1: Like this the kind of you don't really socialize with

2924
02:50:23,920 --> 02:50:27,840
Speaker 1: people outside of the family, so to speak. It is

2925
02:50:27,920 --> 02:50:29,640
Speaker 1: kind of like that. So, yeah, a lot of the

2926
02:50:29,680 --> 02:50:32,680
Speaker 1: language you're using is perfect because so what you're describing

2927
02:50:32,720 --> 02:50:34,600
Speaker 1: and what I remember from being a kid in the

2928
02:50:34,600 --> 02:50:38,560
Speaker 1: eighties and the nineties and stuff was um community policing.

2929
02:50:38,760 --> 02:50:42,600
Speaker 1: Like it's it's a literal style of policing, going back

2930
02:50:42,600 --> 02:50:45,480
Speaker 1: to more of like the professional police style before it

2931
02:50:45,520 --> 02:50:50,760
Speaker 1: went military, and in areas where people actively live in

2932
02:50:50,800 --> 02:50:54,560
Speaker 1: their community and engage with their community, there's a striking

2933
02:50:54,640 --> 02:51:00,880
Speaker 1: difference in the level of police violence that happens. But nowadays, uh,

2934
02:51:00,920 --> 02:51:03,240
Speaker 1: it's not the same thing because a lot of especially

2935
02:51:03,320 --> 02:51:07,920
Speaker 1: in bigger metropolitan areas, you're a cop there, you can't

2936
02:51:07,920 --> 02:51:10,400
Speaker 1: afford to live there. You're you're definitely not getting paid

2937
02:51:10,480 --> 02:51:12,440
Speaker 1: enough to live most of the time in the cities

2938
02:51:12,480 --> 02:51:14,920
Speaker 1: that you're supposed to be, you know, a part of.

2939
02:51:15,959 --> 02:51:18,720
Speaker 1: And it's gotten to the point where they actually teach

2940
02:51:18,800 --> 02:51:22,880
Speaker 1: this like method up methodically in academies. They'll be like, hey,

2941
02:51:22,879 --> 02:51:24,280
Speaker 1: if you want to be a cop in a big town,

2942
02:51:24,720 --> 02:51:27,119
Speaker 1: you need to start shopping around in the smaller cities

2943
02:51:27,160 --> 02:51:29,000
Speaker 1: around it to find a place to live, maybe like

2944
02:51:29,040 --> 02:51:32,640
Speaker 1: an hour away. Um. And then they also pitch it

2945
02:51:32,680 --> 02:51:34,520
Speaker 1: as a safety thing because it's all about, you know,

2946
02:51:34,720 --> 02:51:39,280
Speaker 1: the cheology Grossman, we're all under attack, so they'll teach people,

2947
02:51:39,360 --> 02:51:42,680
Speaker 1: you know what, it's it's safest to not live in

2948
02:51:42,760 --> 02:51:47,039
Speaker 1: the town where you're a cop now. So it's become intentional,

2949
02:51:48,480 --> 02:51:50,760
Speaker 1: and it's one of those things where because I don't

2950
02:51:50,760 --> 02:51:52,560
Speaker 1: want to breeze past this is not the episode world

2951
02:51:52,560 --> 02:51:56,080
Speaker 1: talk about community policing. There's very good criticisms of community policing,

2952
02:51:56,080 --> 02:51:58,480
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of things that doesn't solve. But

2953
02:51:58,560 --> 02:52:01,080
Speaker 1: I think it's yeah, yeah, absolutely, we're not trying to

2954
02:52:01,080 --> 02:52:02,840
Speaker 1: say like the solution is just to get cops, you know,

2955
02:52:02,879 --> 02:52:05,200
Speaker 1: to be members of their communities. But it it is

2956
02:52:05,320 --> 02:52:09,280
Speaker 1: worse when they're driving in from an hour out of

2957
02:52:09,320 --> 02:52:11,920
Speaker 1: town and see it as like I'm occupying almost this

2958
02:52:12,040 --> 02:52:15,840
Speaker 1: area like it does. Yeah, that language fits perfectly, especially

2959
02:52:15,879 --> 02:52:19,680
Speaker 1: with Grossman and all that. Yes, and we've got a

2960
02:52:19,680 --> 02:52:21,920
Speaker 1: two partner on David Grossman or Behind the Bastards if

2961
02:52:21,920 --> 02:52:23,320
Speaker 1: you want to check it out. But he's kind of

2962
02:52:23,320 --> 02:52:25,760
Speaker 1: the one of the big, one of the big individuals,

2963
02:52:25,760 --> 02:52:29,040
Speaker 1: who's who's done the most to like really push UM.

2964
02:52:29,080 --> 02:52:32,320
Speaker 1: I don't even like it's usually framed as militarized thinking,

2965
02:52:32,360 --> 02:52:35,200
Speaker 1: but I don't know a lot of soldiers who have

2966
02:52:35,280 --> 02:52:38,520
Speaker 1: been who were trained to think that way about ship.

2967
02:52:38,600 --> 02:52:40,480
Speaker 1: Like most of the people I know who we're getting

2968
02:52:40,520 --> 02:52:43,960
Speaker 1: shot at every day for years overseas, we're not thinking

2969
02:52:44,000 --> 02:52:47,400
Speaker 1: the way Grossman does. No, that's probably because he never

2970
02:52:47,400 --> 02:52:53,039
Speaker 1: actually wouldn't did anything. I think maybe we should probably Alexander,

2971
02:52:53,080 --> 02:52:56,199
Speaker 1: have you go start going through this um, this document

2972
02:52:56,240 --> 02:52:59,000
Speaker 1: you put together, kind of walking through UM and I

2973
02:52:59,080 --> 02:53:01,680
Speaker 1: wonder if you might start when you kind of started

2974
02:53:01,720 --> 02:53:05,879
Speaker 1: thinking about police training and the mindset inculcated inside police

2975
02:53:05,879 --> 02:53:09,120
Speaker 1: departments from like a cultic perspective, When did that really

2976
02:53:09,240 --> 02:53:13,200
Speaker 1: start to come together for you? Uh? It probably really

2977
02:53:13,200 --> 02:53:16,360
Speaker 1: started to come together. Um uh when actually when I

2978
02:53:16,400 --> 02:53:19,080
Speaker 1: got involved, I used to be an instructor. When I

2979
02:53:19,120 --> 02:53:21,120
Speaker 1: got you know, behind that part of the curtain, and

2980
02:53:21,120 --> 02:53:25,160
Speaker 1: I got involved in those things. Um and I started

2981
02:53:25,160 --> 02:53:27,680
Speaker 1: going to teaching, and I started teaching other departments that

2982
02:53:27,680 --> 02:53:29,760
Speaker 1: would come to us, and it was it was a

2983
02:53:29,840 --> 02:53:31,640
Speaker 1: joke in my head at first, was like, oh, we

2984
02:53:31,680 --> 02:53:33,879
Speaker 1: all speak the same language. And then that got my

2985
02:53:33,920 --> 02:53:37,720
Speaker 1: brain rolling on linguistics and how linguistics work and how

2986
02:53:37,760 --> 02:53:41,080
Speaker 1: that you know, the words we use change how we

2987
02:53:41,120 --> 02:53:43,280
Speaker 1: perceive reality. And then I clicked and I was like, oh,

2988
02:53:43,280 --> 02:53:46,600
Speaker 1: we're like a We're a subculture. We're we're like no

2989
02:53:46,640 --> 02:53:49,320
Speaker 1: matter where you go in the country, we are a

2990
02:53:49,360 --> 02:53:53,720
Speaker 1: little subculture. We are a little group. And uh, that's

2991
02:53:53,720 --> 02:53:56,320
Speaker 1: what started to kind of push me towards like it's

2992
02:53:56,320 --> 02:54:00,000
Speaker 1: like being in a cult because you know, you girl

2993
02:54:00,120 --> 02:54:03,840
Speaker 1: up around Central California and there's a lot of really

2994
02:54:03,920 --> 02:54:06,760
Speaker 1: religious people and you start seeing the intersectionality of it

2995
02:54:06,800 --> 02:54:10,920
Speaker 1: really fast. Yeah, and that's interesting because we've talked a

2996
02:54:10,920 --> 02:54:13,120
Speaker 1: few times on various shows I've done about how any

2997
02:54:13,120 --> 02:54:15,760
Speaker 1: good subculture, any really good party, has elements of like

2998
02:54:15,800 --> 02:54:18,520
Speaker 1: a cult. Right, there's there's little bits of that. There's

2999
02:54:18,560 --> 02:54:23,400
Speaker 1: bits of that in friendship and whatnot. Yeah, yeah, it's

3000
02:54:23,400 --> 02:54:26,039
Speaker 1: just a thing like cults are taking advantage, like pulling

3001
02:54:26,080 --> 02:54:29,160
Speaker 1: a bunch of things that people do together in order

3002
02:54:29,200 --> 02:54:34,320
Speaker 1: to manipulate human beings. Um, I'm wondering kind of where

3003
02:54:34,360 --> 02:54:36,000
Speaker 1: where you think? Where are some of the areas you

3004
02:54:36,000 --> 02:54:38,480
Speaker 1: think it kind of crosses the line with police from

3005
02:54:38,520 --> 02:54:41,240
Speaker 1: like this is you know a degree of like I'm

3006
02:54:41,280 --> 02:54:44,440
Speaker 1: sure firefighters have a degree of this. You know, Um,

3007
02:54:44,640 --> 02:54:46,560
Speaker 1: these are people that like I hang around with all

3008
02:54:46,600 --> 02:54:49,280
Speaker 1: the time and we wipe up in some intense situations together.

3009
02:54:49,320 --> 02:54:53,640
Speaker 1: That causes there are culti aspects that's always going to cause. Um,

3010
02:54:53,680 --> 02:54:56,040
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, kind of where where are the first areas

3011
02:54:56,080 --> 02:54:58,960
Speaker 1: you started to realize this this is crossing that line

3012
02:54:59,680 --> 02:55:03,640
Speaker 1: of Probably the first area is in how much the department,

3013
02:55:03,840 --> 02:55:05,960
Speaker 1: like and this was universal and lots of departments that

3014
02:55:06,000 --> 02:55:09,520
Speaker 1: I had contact with, is how much the department owns you?

3015
02:55:09,680 --> 02:55:11,920
Speaker 1: And I mean like they use that language. They they'll

3016
02:55:11,920 --> 02:55:15,080
Speaker 1: tell you like we own you like anything you do

3017
02:55:15,160 --> 02:55:17,520
Speaker 1: in your personal life. Your first thought needs to be

3018
02:55:18,160 --> 02:55:22,039
Speaker 1: how does this affect my department and my my sheriff,

3019
02:55:22,120 --> 02:55:24,600
Speaker 1: my chief, my whatever, Like every single thing you do

3020
02:55:24,720 --> 02:55:29,440
Speaker 1: is supposed to be potentially pr for the department. So

3021
02:55:29,720 --> 02:55:31,680
Speaker 1: they tell you flat out, in the forefront of your

3022
02:55:31,720 --> 02:55:36,160
Speaker 1: mind every waking moment, your own duty. You're you're, you're here,

3023
02:55:36,200 --> 02:55:40,039
Speaker 1: you're you, we own you. Um. And that that was

3024
02:55:40,080 --> 02:55:42,320
Speaker 1: the first one that was just like, oh man, Like, no,

3025
02:55:42,400 --> 02:55:44,360
Speaker 1: I punch out at the end of my shift and

3026
02:55:44,400 --> 02:55:48,600
Speaker 1: I go home. This isn't like, this isn't this is

3027
02:55:48,640 --> 02:55:51,160
Speaker 1: a job. It's not supposed to be a life. It's

3028
02:55:51,560 --> 02:55:53,440
Speaker 1: it's then that that was the first one that started

3029
02:55:53,480 --> 02:55:57,720
Speaker 1: going it. Um. Probably the second one that I really

3030
02:55:57,720 --> 02:56:00,520
Speaker 1: noticed was that you can tell anyone's a because they'll

3031
02:56:00,520 --> 02:56:02,200
Speaker 1: tell you within about five seconds of meeting them. But

3032
02:56:02,200 --> 02:56:05,320
Speaker 1: they're common. If you're at a bar, you're at a party,

3033
02:56:05,400 --> 02:56:07,480
Speaker 1: or at whatever, they'll be like, hi, my, my, mine's

3034
02:56:07,480 --> 02:56:10,400
Speaker 1: Alexander work for the search part Like it's it's gonna

3035
02:56:10,400 --> 02:56:14,160
Speaker 1: come out of their mouth in two seconds, because it is.

3036
02:56:14,280 --> 02:56:17,400
Speaker 1: It's their identity, it's their entire sense of self. Yeah,

3037
02:56:17,600 --> 02:56:19,760
Speaker 1: I wonder because one of the things we've seen in

3038
02:56:19,800 --> 02:56:22,560
Speaker 1: the last couple of years in particular, is aspects of

3039
02:56:22,600 --> 02:56:25,400
Speaker 1: that bleed out, like the thin blue line flags and stuff,

3040
02:56:25,440 --> 02:56:28,920
Speaker 1: and some of that's some of that's just you know, signpost.

3041
02:56:28,959 --> 02:56:32,520
Speaker 1: Some of that's just I know, people who were in uh,

3042
02:56:33,320 --> 02:56:36,360
Speaker 1: certain jobs where they transported things that were sketchy and

3043
02:56:36,400 --> 02:56:38,400
Speaker 1: had those flags. Is like, well maybe the cop won't

3044
02:56:38,400 --> 02:56:41,320
Speaker 1: search mer, you know, but like there and there's elements

3045
02:56:41,360 --> 02:56:42,880
Speaker 1: that they're just you know, I don't want the cops

3046
02:56:42,959 --> 02:56:45,240
Speaker 1: to stop me from you know, fucking with these people

3047
02:56:45,280 --> 02:56:48,959
Speaker 1: or whatever. But I think there's also elements of that.

3048
02:56:49,920 --> 02:56:52,760
Speaker 1: Um And I think probably television is to blame for

3049
02:56:52,800 --> 02:56:56,200
Speaker 1: aspects of this, but of kind of that sheep dog

3050
02:56:56,240 --> 02:56:59,560
Speaker 1: culture as as as grossman calls that are starting to

3051
02:56:59,600 --> 02:57:02,880
Speaker 1: bleed over into chunks of the civilian world. UM. And

3052
02:57:02,959 --> 02:57:05,280
Speaker 1: I guess I'm wondering kind of like, yeah, what that

3053
02:57:05,320 --> 02:57:09,720
Speaker 1: looks like as a as someone unlike the the deep

3054
02:57:09,800 --> 02:57:12,360
Speaker 1: inside of that as a police officer, Like what is it?

3055
02:57:12,920 --> 02:57:14,920
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, like to what extent where you kind of

3056
02:57:14,959 --> 02:57:19,400
Speaker 1: conscious of that aspect of society like filling out around you.

3057
02:57:19,480 --> 02:57:21,960
Speaker 1: Like some of these like the cult of the of

3058
02:57:22,040 --> 02:57:26,440
Speaker 1: the heroic police officer kind of spreading to be um

3059
02:57:26,879 --> 02:57:30,200
Speaker 1: something new, which which it really started doing from like

3060
02:57:30,280 --> 02:57:32,840
Speaker 1: two thousand and eighteen up to the present moment is

3061
02:57:32,840 --> 02:57:34,840
Speaker 1: when a lot of that shift seems to have happened

3062
02:57:34,840 --> 02:57:38,080
Speaker 1: based on kind of what I've saw. You No, that

3063
02:57:38,280 --> 02:57:41,360
Speaker 1: timeline fits perfectly because I remember when I first got hired,

3064
02:57:41,720 --> 02:57:44,360
Speaker 1: the thin blue line. It existed. It was a thing,

3065
02:57:44,440 --> 02:57:46,240
Speaker 1: but it was just it was just a matte black

3066
02:57:46,280 --> 02:57:49,039
Speaker 1: with a blue line and that was it. Uh. And

3067
02:57:49,320 --> 02:57:51,760
Speaker 1: you didn't really even in cop culture, like I didn't

3068
02:57:51,760 --> 02:57:53,840
Speaker 1: grow up seeing that thing in the eighties and the nineties,

3069
02:57:53,879 --> 02:57:55,680
Speaker 1: not much, not at all. And then when I was

3070
02:57:55,680 --> 02:57:57,840
Speaker 1: in the department in the in the in the two thousand's,

3071
02:57:58,520 --> 02:58:00,280
Speaker 1: you kind of saw it every now and again, someone

3072
02:58:00,400 --> 02:58:04,080
Speaker 1: might have a pelpin like in the department, but out

3073
02:58:04,160 --> 02:58:09,040
Speaker 1: in public, nobody had that stuff. No nobody, nobody had

3074
02:58:09,080 --> 02:58:11,200
Speaker 1: any of that rocking stuff. And it didn't It never

3075
02:58:11,240 --> 02:58:14,560
Speaker 1: really bothered me until it showed up on an American

3076
02:58:14,600 --> 02:58:16,280
Speaker 1: flag and then that was that was a big red

3077
02:58:16,280 --> 02:58:19,600
Speaker 1: flag of like, oh this m this is bad. I

3078
02:58:19,680 --> 02:58:22,360
Speaker 1: was like, this is this is nationalism, guys, this isn't good.

3079
02:58:22,360 --> 02:58:23,640
Speaker 1: And like my whole crew look to me and go

3080
02:58:23,760 --> 02:58:29,760
Speaker 1: what's nationalism? And I'm just like, fuck, is there this

3081
02:58:29,959 --> 02:58:32,400
Speaker 1: like sense that people are totying or is it this

3082
02:58:32,480 --> 02:58:35,800
Speaker 1: sense that like this is kind of the silent majority

3083
02:58:35,840 --> 02:58:38,360
Speaker 1: that backs us in doing whatever hard work we need

3084
02:58:38,400 --> 02:58:41,440
Speaker 1: to do. I think it started out as tody, it

3085
02:58:41,520 --> 02:58:46,039
Speaker 1: really did, and it's but it's now shifted into um

3086
02:58:46,080 --> 02:58:49,000
Speaker 1: this whole like, you know, you get those guys that

3087
02:58:49,040 --> 02:58:50,480
Speaker 1: are like, oh, if I see a cop getting in

3088
02:58:50,480 --> 02:58:51,800
Speaker 1: a fight, I'm gonna get out of my car and

3089
02:58:51,840 --> 02:58:53,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna jump in there and I'm gonna back them

3090
02:58:53,440 --> 02:58:57,280
Speaker 1: up because they're like they're playing top. They really want

3091
02:58:57,840 --> 02:59:00,520
Speaker 1: that authority or that whatever, but for whatever reason they

3092
02:59:00,520 --> 02:59:03,680
Speaker 1: don't go do it. M Yeah, but this has been

3093
02:59:03,720 --> 02:59:05,840
Speaker 1: a way of like kind of they get to see

3094
02:59:05,840 --> 02:59:09,440
Speaker 1: themselves as being like a posse kind of a thing,

3095
02:59:09,879 --> 02:59:11,600
Speaker 1: like I'm in the I'm in the club. I'm not

3096
02:59:11,680 --> 02:59:15,200
Speaker 1: in the club, but like they're my buddies and is

3097
02:59:15,240 --> 02:59:17,800
Speaker 1: there I don't know, does that make being in the

3098
02:59:17,800 --> 02:59:20,520
Speaker 1: club cooler? The fact that there's these kind of posse's

3099
02:59:20,800 --> 02:59:23,440
Speaker 1: forming around it, these people kind of work worshiping the

3100
02:59:23,480 --> 02:59:26,200
Speaker 1: culture associated with it. I mean, there probably is now,

3101
02:59:26,240 --> 02:59:27,920
Speaker 1: but honestly, when I was in there freaked me the

3102
02:59:27,920 --> 02:59:31,040
Speaker 1: hell out. It really really creeped me out. I didn't

3103
02:59:31,080 --> 02:59:33,680
Speaker 1: like it at all. Yeah. I mean, you have to

3104
02:59:33,720 --> 02:59:36,080
Speaker 1: think about if you're if you're a reasonable person, how

3105
02:59:36,120 --> 02:59:38,720
Speaker 1: weird it would be to see your job turned into

3106
02:59:38,840 --> 02:59:42,160
Speaker 1: a cult like Garrison, you know that feeling, or you're

3107
02:59:42,200 --> 02:59:48,039
Speaker 1: you're going to learn when we when we make the cult. Yeah, okay,

3108
02:59:48,200 --> 02:59:50,120
Speaker 1: so I wanted to. I guess let's let's let's get

3109
02:59:50,160 --> 02:59:51,600
Speaker 1: back to this kind of list you put together, because

3110
02:59:51,640 --> 02:59:54,680
Speaker 1: you were sort of going through different hallmarks of what

3111
02:59:54,800 --> 02:59:56,920
Speaker 1: makes something a cult. One of them is the group

3112
02:59:56,959 --> 03:00:00,200
Speaker 1: displays and excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its eater

3113
03:00:00,520 --> 03:00:03,680
Speaker 1: and whether he is alive or dead, regards his belief system, ideology,

3114
03:00:03,720 --> 03:00:06,680
Speaker 1: in practices as the truth as law. Um. And I'll

3115
03:00:06,680 --> 03:00:08,959
Speaker 1: remind you we were not talking about my podcast. We're

3116
03:00:09,000 --> 03:00:15,680
Speaker 1: talking about cults here. Uh that's right. Um, Yes, stay quiet, Garrison.

3117
03:00:19,400 --> 03:00:23,200
Speaker 1: They're just smiling, silently staring at us through zoom. I

3118
03:00:23,280 --> 03:00:27,039
Speaker 1: see you. Okay, And you've written under this the law

3119
03:00:27,120 --> 03:00:29,440
Speaker 1: is the higher power. They grant control of their actions.

3120
03:00:29,480 --> 03:00:31,640
Speaker 1: Blind faith in the system frees them from having to

3121
03:00:31,680 --> 03:00:34,039
Speaker 1: consider their role in the system. It's my job to

3122
03:00:34,160 --> 03:00:36,200
Speaker 1: arrest in charge high let the court figure out the

3123
03:00:36,240 --> 03:00:38,480
Speaker 1: rest it sounds a lot like kill them all let

3124
03:00:38,560 --> 03:00:40,360
Speaker 1: and let God sort him out. In this case, the

3125
03:00:40,360 --> 03:00:44,280
Speaker 1: criminal justice system is a direct replacement for God. I think,

3126
03:00:44,280 --> 03:00:45,840
Speaker 1: I think this is this is a really good point.

3127
03:00:45,879 --> 03:00:48,360
Speaker 1: This is even this is the thing even when I

3128
03:00:48,400 --> 03:00:52,360
Speaker 1: was like a dumb kid and thought cops were fine,

3129
03:00:52,440 --> 03:00:54,320
Speaker 1: This was the one thing that even like just even

3130
03:00:54,360 --> 03:00:56,600
Speaker 1: still freaked me out about cops because every once in

3131
03:00:56,640 --> 03:00:58,560
Speaker 1: a while you would see a video of like the

3132
03:00:58,680 --> 03:01:01,600
Speaker 1: cot was randomly like a saulting somebody, and then other

3133
03:01:01,640 --> 03:01:04,400
Speaker 1: cops nearby just mindlessly join in, and I'm like, whoa,

3134
03:01:04,600 --> 03:01:07,400
Speaker 1: that's so such a weird kind of group dynamic of

3135
03:01:07,720 --> 03:01:10,840
Speaker 1: they see someone doing something and they just don't question

3136
03:01:10,879 --> 03:01:13,600
Speaker 1: it at all and immediately back it up, no matter

3137
03:01:13,680 --> 03:01:15,720
Speaker 1: what actually was happening. Because like I always tried to

3138
03:01:15,760 --> 03:01:18,400
Speaker 1: think things through more like logically, and that type of

3139
03:01:18,440 --> 03:01:21,760
Speaker 1: like mindlessness really freaked me out, and I think was

3140
03:01:21,800 --> 03:01:23,840
Speaker 1: maybe one of the first things that was like huh,

3141
03:01:23,840 --> 03:01:26,000
Speaker 1: maybe it was. It was one of the first cracks

3142
03:01:26,040 --> 03:01:29,959
Speaker 1: and like maybe cops actually aren't good. Um. I think, yeah,

3143
03:01:29,959 --> 03:01:31,600
Speaker 1: I think this is a really great point in terms

3144
03:01:31,680 --> 03:01:35,240
Speaker 1: of how this ties into like, yeah, it's my job

3145
03:01:35,280 --> 03:01:38,199
Speaker 1: to it's my job to arrest and charge. I don't

3146
03:01:38,240 --> 03:01:40,800
Speaker 1: sort out what happens afterwards, so it doesn't actually matter.

3147
03:01:40,920 --> 03:01:43,160
Speaker 1: Like it's like I'm not I'm not actually hurting these

3148
03:01:43,200 --> 03:01:45,600
Speaker 1: people because if if they did something wrong, it's gonna

3149
03:01:45,640 --> 03:01:48,240
Speaker 1: get figured out in the court system. I'm just doing

3150
03:01:48,280 --> 03:01:51,520
Speaker 1: this like preliminary task. It's it plays into a whole

3151
03:01:51,520 --> 03:01:55,480
Speaker 1: bunch of like weird psychological things that make you feel

3152
03:01:55,520 --> 03:01:58,160
Speaker 1: better about horrible actions you're doing because you have so

3153
03:01:58,240 --> 03:02:00,920
Speaker 1: much backing that's gonna make sure what you do actually

3154
03:02:00,920 --> 03:02:05,720
Speaker 1: isn't bad. Yeah, this is like this, you know, this arrest,

3155
03:02:05,920 --> 03:02:09,360
Speaker 1: which may be physical and ugly even if they're innocent later.

3156
03:02:09,480 --> 03:02:11,080
Speaker 1: It's just part of what you have to do to

3157
03:02:11,160 --> 03:02:12,720
Speaker 1: get to the point where you determine whether or not

3158
03:02:12,800 --> 03:02:15,440
Speaker 1: they're innocence. So I'm not doing anything bad. Yeah, yeah,

3159
03:02:15,520 --> 03:02:18,200
Speaker 1: And actually, Garrison, I it's it's what you said. It's

3160
03:02:18,240 --> 03:02:20,039
Speaker 1: perfect because in the bottom of the thing where I

3161
03:02:20,080 --> 03:02:23,280
Speaker 1: was just spewing notes to myself, I literally put down

3162
03:02:23,280 --> 03:02:25,080
Speaker 1: here it's not a job to them, it's a central

3163
03:02:25,120 --> 03:02:27,840
Speaker 1: component of their sense of self. This is why they

3164
03:02:27,879 --> 03:02:32,840
Speaker 1: will do terrible things to validate their perceived reality and

3165
03:02:32,879 --> 03:02:37,520
Speaker 1: how these things. Yeah, they it's you might say, like

3166
03:02:37,600 --> 03:02:39,640
Speaker 1: imagine how like think about how hard it is to

3167
03:02:39,640 --> 03:02:42,720
Speaker 1: get people to admit they're wrong about a political belief

3168
03:02:42,879 --> 03:02:46,240
Speaker 1: on Twitter, especially when their name is attached to their account.

3169
03:02:46,720 --> 03:02:51,280
Speaker 1: Now imagine you have like imagine that's the thing being argued,

3170
03:02:51,360 --> 03:02:54,240
Speaker 1: is like the central thing around which you organize your life.

3171
03:02:54,240 --> 03:02:56,800
Speaker 1: And also you get to shoot people who make you angry.

3172
03:02:57,400 --> 03:03:00,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's it's a rough situ. It should to

3173
03:03:00,440 --> 03:03:03,879
Speaker 1: be it. It is, it is. It's crazy. And the

3174
03:03:03,920 --> 03:03:06,959
Speaker 1: part that I wrote of it's my job to arrest

3175
03:03:07,000 --> 03:03:10,560
Speaker 1: and charge high, I think that's that's a part of

3176
03:03:11,360 --> 03:03:14,640
Speaker 1: the mentality of it is like, yeah, I don't want

3177
03:03:14,640 --> 03:03:16,280
Speaker 1: to say it's like a game, but it almost is

3178
03:03:16,320 --> 03:03:18,600
Speaker 1: like a game. It's almost like they're trying to get points,

3179
03:03:18,640 --> 03:03:21,360
Speaker 1: like score high and talk to me about talk to

3180
03:03:21,360 --> 03:03:23,200
Speaker 1: me about when you say a rest and charge high

3181
03:03:23,320 --> 03:03:24,760
Speaker 1: kind of what is that? What does that sort of

3182
03:03:24,800 --> 03:03:26,920
Speaker 1: look like on the ground before we get into kind

3183
03:03:26,959 --> 03:03:30,640
Speaker 1: of why people do that. So, when when you're using

3184
03:03:30,640 --> 03:03:32,800
Speaker 1: your your powers of arrest, you're you're you're supposed to

3185
03:03:32,840 --> 03:03:35,640
Speaker 1: adhere to a penal code. But there is code and

3186
03:03:35,640 --> 03:03:38,080
Speaker 1: I'm only speaking to California, because that's where I got

3187
03:03:38,120 --> 03:03:42,320
Speaker 1: my trainer. Um, they don't expect cops to remember every

3188
03:03:42,320 --> 03:03:45,200
Speaker 1: single element of every single PC code because that's ridiculous.

3189
03:03:45,480 --> 03:03:48,040
Speaker 1: No one's going to be able to do that. Um.

3190
03:03:48,080 --> 03:03:52,240
Speaker 1: So there's there's wiggle room, there's play where I know

3191
03:03:52,360 --> 03:03:54,240
Speaker 1: you did this thing, and I know it's what they

3192
03:03:54,280 --> 03:03:57,240
Speaker 1: call a wobbler, Like I can go felony and go misdemeanor.

3193
03:03:57,680 --> 03:03:59,440
Speaker 1: They'll teach you in the academy. They're like, if it's

3194
03:03:59,440 --> 03:04:02,560
Speaker 1: a wabbler, always charge felony every single time, even if

3195
03:04:02,560 --> 03:04:06,640
Speaker 1: you don't think it's gonna work. Charge it felony, take

3196
03:04:06,680 --> 03:04:08,320
Speaker 1: it to the d A and let the d A

3197
03:04:08,360 --> 03:04:10,360
Speaker 1: c if they can make it stick. And if they don't, whatever,

3198
03:04:10,400 --> 03:04:14,600
Speaker 1: who cares. That's not part of our job anymore. And yeah,

3199
03:04:14,640 --> 03:04:16,680
Speaker 1: and that's one of those things where a lot of

3200
03:04:16,720 --> 03:04:19,120
Speaker 1: people I've had friends who got charged with felonies that

3201
03:04:19,240 --> 03:04:22,160
Speaker 1: got dropped. But like, you're still living under your You

3202
03:04:22,280 --> 03:04:24,480
Speaker 1: essentially have to live as like the diet version of

3203
03:04:24,520 --> 03:04:28,199
Speaker 1: a felon while that's hanging over your head um, which

3204
03:04:28,240 --> 03:04:30,760
Speaker 1: is not fun. No, And it's a big part of

3205
03:04:30,800 --> 03:04:32,800
Speaker 1: the whole criminal justice. I'm sure you guys are aware

3206
03:04:32,879 --> 03:04:35,120
Speaker 1: that d a's love to crack deals. They love to

3207
03:04:35,200 --> 03:04:40,000
Speaker 1: make their big may general backroom deals, and facilitating that

3208
03:04:40,160 --> 03:04:44,160
Speaker 1: is cops charging high. You're here in the room, you're

3209
03:04:44,200 --> 03:04:46,880
Speaker 1: facing felony charges, and the d A is gonna be like, oh, man,

3210
03:04:46,920 --> 03:04:48,520
Speaker 1: I can knock that down to him his demeanor. But

3211
03:04:48,600 --> 03:04:51,560
Speaker 1: that's because he knows he doesn't have a case. But

3212
03:04:51,640 --> 03:04:54,960
Speaker 1: he didn't get that opportunity without a cop charging the

3213
03:04:55,040 --> 03:05:00,000
Speaker 1: higher charge. Now you know who isn't going to charge

3214
03:05:00,200 --> 03:05:06,200
Speaker 1: high because their prices are incredibly low, very reasonable, very fair.

3215
03:05:06,240 --> 03:05:11,039
Speaker 1: The products and services that support our podcast. Uh, we're back.

3216
03:05:11,680 --> 03:05:14,080
Speaker 1: So the next thing you've got on here is kind

3217
03:05:14,080 --> 03:05:17,720
Speaker 1: of talking about cult characteristics. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are

3218
03:05:17,760 --> 03:05:21,640
Speaker 1: discouraged or even punished. And you've written academies are commonly paramilitary.

3219
03:05:21,680 --> 03:05:24,119
Speaker 1: They're working to break down and build up cadets. As

3220
03:05:24,120 --> 03:05:27,640
Speaker 1: discussed last season on my show, the FDO program is

3221
03:05:27,640 --> 03:05:30,200
Speaker 1: where fresh cadets meet salty veterans in the cycle of

3222
03:05:30,280 --> 03:05:33,760
Speaker 1: abuse starts. The paramilitary environment is usually casual and unnoticeable

3223
03:05:33,800 --> 03:05:37,400
Speaker 1: until somebody questions orders or tradition. Questioning order gets the

3224
03:05:37,520 --> 03:05:40,760
Speaker 1: that's an order threat. While questioning tradition and suggesting improvements

3225
03:05:40,760 --> 03:05:43,160
Speaker 1: gets that's how it's always been done. There is no

3226
03:05:43,280 --> 03:05:46,200
Speaker 1: forum for change your progress. Some places have these forums,

3227
03:05:46,200 --> 03:05:48,880
Speaker 1: but they're just for public relations. And this is the

3228
03:05:48,879 --> 03:05:52,560
Speaker 1: thing that I think people who are trying to engage

3229
03:05:52,600 --> 03:05:56,240
Speaker 1: with from a perspective of like reform or whatever, trying

3230
03:05:56,280 --> 03:05:59,400
Speaker 1: to change law enforcement, as a lot of people were

3231
03:05:59,520 --> 03:06:02,440
Speaker 1: last year, where things get jammed up a lot is

3232
03:06:02,480 --> 03:06:07,840
Speaker 1: the there's this attitude among civilians, so to speak, among

3233
03:06:07,879 --> 03:06:10,680
Speaker 1: most of us that like, well, anything the government does

3234
03:06:10,680 --> 03:06:12,520
Speaker 1: should be subject to like what we should watch out.

3235
03:06:12,560 --> 03:06:14,119
Speaker 1: We should look at it, we should see if it works.

3236
03:06:14,160 --> 03:06:15,840
Speaker 1: If it doesn't work, we should change it to make

3237
03:06:15,879 --> 03:06:18,760
Speaker 1: it work better. And that's how kind of everything should work.

3238
03:06:18,840 --> 03:06:21,680
Speaker 1: And that's what you're getting it here. Is interesting because

3239
03:06:21,720 --> 03:06:26,359
Speaker 1: it's the reticence to actual change among police as legendary.

3240
03:06:26,400 --> 03:06:27,880
Speaker 1: But I don't think there's a lot of discussion if

3241
03:06:27,879 --> 03:06:31,720
Speaker 1: the psychology behind it. Yeah, I mean it's that it

3242
03:06:31,760 --> 03:06:34,280
Speaker 1: goes back to that whole will do anything to reinforce

3243
03:06:34,280 --> 03:06:38,560
Speaker 1: our perception of reality thing. Um, like I said earlier,

3244
03:06:38,680 --> 03:06:42,040
Speaker 1: grew up in a cop family and it's specifically in

3245
03:06:42,080 --> 03:06:44,080
Speaker 1: the department that I worked at so you know, we

3246
03:06:44,080 --> 03:06:48,400
Speaker 1: were called like blue bloods or legacy kids, And no

3247
03:06:48,400 --> 03:06:51,440
Speaker 1: matter what was going on, like anything that you questioned,

3248
03:06:51,480 --> 03:06:53,440
Speaker 1: it was always, well, that's always it's that's the way

3249
03:06:53,480 --> 03:06:55,800
Speaker 1: it's always been done. That's the way it's always been done.

3250
03:06:56,320 --> 03:06:59,959
Speaker 1: And I grew to hate that answer, like with a passion,

3251
03:07:00,840 --> 03:07:06,280
Speaker 1: in my personal life everywhere. I refused to give that

3252
03:07:06,320 --> 03:07:08,959
Speaker 1: as an answer. When I became a sergeant, eventually, um,

3253
03:07:09,879 --> 03:07:13,640
Speaker 1: and yeah, they'll do anything. I mean they will, they

3254
03:07:13,640 --> 03:07:18,080
Speaker 1: will bend laws, they'll break laws because who's gonna charge them. Yeah,

3255
03:07:18,080 --> 03:07:22,080
Speaker 1: because it's what they've always done always. My department famously

3256
03:07:22,160 --> 03:07:25,880
Speaker 1: had um our union got all of our union news

3257
03:07:25,920 --> 03:07:29,920
Speaker 1: embezzled by people in our brass and they got caught

3258
03:07:29,959 --> 03:07:33,280
Speaker 1: dead to rights. But that case never went anywhere. Nobody

3259
03:07:33,320 --> 03:07:35,959
Speaker 1: would touch it with a ten foot poll. Uh. And

3260
03:07:36,000 --> 03:07:37,440
Speaker 1: even if you go and google it and you try

3261
03:07:37,480 --> 03:07:40,040
Speaker 1: to look at archives from the local newspaper, it's gone.

3262
03:07:40,160 --> 03:07:44,280
Speaker 1: It never happened. And Yeah, that's interesting to me because

3263
03:07:44,280 --> 03:07:49,680
Speaker 1: that's like cops getting screwed over by cops. Why how

3264
03:07:49,800 --> 03:07:52,080
Speaker 1: is that? How is that? How was it? Like? What

3265
03:07:52,080 --> 03:07:54,360
Speaker 1: what what is the impulse to defend the hat Well,

3266
03:07:54,440 --> 03:07:58,080
Speaker 1: because so there's a division in in cop culture of

3267
03:07:58,440 --> 03:08:00,720
Speaker 1: like like ranks and a cult. Once you get to

3268
03:08:00,879 --> 03:08:03,960
Speaker 1: what they called brass your your lieutenant, captain or higher,

3269
03:08:04,920 --> 03:08:07,240
Speaker 1: they don't look at us the same way they don't

3270
03:08:07,280 --> 03:08:10,520
Speaker 1: look at the grunts, the line workers, the guys doing

3271
03:08:10,520 --> 03:08:14,280
Speaker 1: the twelve hour shifts were all that family talk goes

3272
03:08:14,320 --> 03:08:15,880
Speaker 1: out the window and it's like, well, we're mom and

3273
03:08:15,959 --> 03:08:21,040
Speaker 1: dad now, and they change their role in that world,

3274
03:08:21,400 --> 03:08:24,879
Speaker 1: and again to maintain that power and authority, they'll do

3275
03:08:24,920 --> 03:08:31,360
Speaker 1: whatever they have to do. Yeah, that's um. I mean.

3276
03:08:31,640 --> 03:08:35,400
Speaker 1: It also kind of feeds into this this idea that

3277
03:08:35,480 --> 03:08:38,120
Speaker 1: like there used to be less restrictions. There used to

3278
03:08:38,160 --> 03:08:39,920
Speaker 1: be like we used to really be able to like

3279
03:08:40,080 --> 03:08:42,240
Speaker 1: do this and do that, Like we like a lot

3280
03:08:42,280 --> 03:08:44,760
Speaker 1: of violence get justified that way. But it also it

3281
03:08:45,080 --> 03:08:47,480
Speaker 1: provides an opportunity I think for like police who are

3282
03:08:47,480 --> 03:08:51,560
Speaker 1: trying to engage with reformers to do some sneaky ship

3283
03:08:51,640 --> 03:08:54,640
Speaker 1: because often this like community policing is referred to like yeah,

3284
03:08:54,760 --> 03:08:57,400
Speaker 1: we need to go back to the old methods of policing.

3285
03:08:57,440 --> 03:09:00,400
Speaker 1: It's like, well, but there were probed do you remember

3286
03:09:00,440 --> 03:09:03,240
Speaker 1: the fire houses being used to black people during the

3287
03:09:03,280 --> 03:09:06,400
Speaker 1: Civil rights movement, Like there were issues back before we

3288
03:09:06,440 --> 03:09:09,480
Speaker 1: got militarized. It's and I mean, and that was the

3289
03:09:09,520 --> 03:09:12,760
Speaker 1: stuff they were doing outside. Um, the jail I worked in.

3290
03:09:12,840 --> 03:09:16,240
Speaker 1: Because you bring up fire hoses, this is where I'm going. Um,

3291
03:09:16,280 --> 03:09:18,720
Speaker 1: they we had big cotton fire hoses up on the

3292
03:09:18,720 --> 03:09:20,600
Speaker 1: floors in this jail and there was actually built out

3293
03:09:20,600 --> 03:09:23,640
Speaker 1: of old parts of the Texas prison. And you know,

3294
03:09:23,760 --> 03:09:25,640
Speaker 1: everyone talks about the good old days when we could

3295
03:09:25,680 --> 03:09:28,760
Speaker 1: really do stuff. And the story that always went around

3296
03:09:28,840 --> 03:09:31,320
Speaker 1: was that when the inmates were getting rowdy, they would

3297
03:09:31,320 --> 03:09:33,080
Speaker 1: just walk down the tier with the hose and just

3298
03:09:33,280 --> 03:09:37,320
Speaker 1: name them. And then Jesus Christ put it back because again,

3299
03:09:38,080 --> 03:09:40,240
Speaker 1: who who's gonna who's gonna tell on me? Who's gonna

3300
03:09:40,240 --> 03:09:43,480
Speaker 1: believe these guys? Yeah, and that was back in like

3301
03:09:43,680 --> 03:09:46,600
Speaker 1: seventies era. You know, that's the that's the big fish

3302
03:09:46,600 --> 03:09:48,440
Speaker 1: story that guys used to always tell. But I'm like,

3303
03:09:48,480 --> 03:09:50,240
Speaker 1: I have no reason to not believe that story. It

3304
03:09:50,400 --> 03:09:55,680
Speaker 1: sounds very I mean worre stuff happens in prisons today. Yeah, yeah,

3305
03:09:55,879 --> 03:09:59,800
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised. All right, moving on down your list,

3306
03:09:59,800 --> 03:10:02,400
Speaker 1: This one's really interesting to me and I'm I'm curious

3307
03:10:02,400 --> 03:10:04,320
Speaker 1: from some detail on this, because this is not something

3308
03:10:04,360 --> 03:10:08,959
Speaker 1: I ever really thought about. Um. Mind altering practices such

3309
03:10:08,959 --> 03:10:12,720
Speaker 1: as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, or debilitating

3310
03:10:12,720 --> 03:10:15,640
Speaker 1: work routines are used in excess and served to suppress

3311
03:10:15,720 --> 03:10:18,119
Speaker 1: doubts about the group and its leaders. And you've written

3312
03:10:18,160 --> 03:10:20,840
Speaker 1: cop talk briefings, evails are always negative, and the work

3313
03:10:20,879 --> 03:10:24,280
Speaker 1: routine is abusive. It is paired with hyper vigilance. Um.

3314
03:10:24,320 --> 03:10:26,680
Speaker 1: I'm I'm extremely interested in that and kind of like

3315
03:10:26,720 --> 03:10:30,160
Speaker 1: how it how it sounds like the kind of language

3316
03:10:30,480 --> 03:10:32,840
Speaker 1: that you're talking about people using among each other when

3317
03:10:32,840 --> 03:10:37,520
Speaker 1: they're doing this, So I you know almost, I mean,

3318
03:10:37,600 --> 03:10:39,880
Speaker 1: I'm not even almost in kind of a PTSD response.

3319
03:10:40,160 --> 03:10:43,879
Speaker 1: I've blocked out like a lot of my memories from

3320
03:10:43,879 --> 03:10:47,320
Speaker 1: those years, Like I'll talk to that make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

3321
03:10:47,360 --> 03:10:49,199
Speaker 1: I'll talk to X cops and they're like, hey, remember

3322
03:10:49,200 --> 03:10:54,119
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and I'm like no, Um, So cop

3323
03:10:54,160 --> 03:10:58,080
Speaker 1: talk is mostly slang. It's like it's the ten code stuff. Um.

3324
03:10:58,200 --> 03:11:00,760
Speaker 1: But it gets stuck in your head and you start

3325
03:11:00,920 --> 03:11:02,240
Speaker 1: and it's it's one of those things where they talk

3326
03:11:02,240 --> 03:11:03,680
Speaker 1: about how you're not gonna have friends outside of work

3327
03:11:03,680 --> 03:11:06,760
Speaker 1: because you're gonna start talking in this language. You will say,

3328
03:11:06,879 --> 03:11:08,800
Speaker 1: you know, what's your twenty You know, I'm code for

3329
03:11:09,400 --> 03:11:12,240
Speaker 1: if you see someone who's acting a certain way, like

3330
03:11:12,280 --> 03:11:14,360
Speaker 1: out of the ordinary, maybe a mentally ill person, you'll

3331
03:11:14,400 --> 03:11:16,760
Speaker 1: say like, oh, that's a jay cat. Like you'll use

3332
03:11:16,800 --> 03:11:21,440
Speaker 1: this jailhouse slang, and it just it permeates your brain.

3333
03:11:21,480 --> 03:11:24,800
Speaker 1: And like we said before, your words manipulate how you

3334
03:11:25,360 --> 03:11:30,400
Speaker 1: for see reality and you just start seeing everything that way. Um.

3335
03:11:30,520 --> 03:11:34,520
Speaker 1: The big one is the hyper vigilance cycle. Is the

3336
03:11:34,760 --> 03:11:37,400
Speaker 1: is the abusive part. That's that's the part that really

3337
03:11:37,440 --> 03:11:41,160
Speaker 1: got me thinking of cults of how they'll you know,

3338
03:11:42,720 --> 03:11:46,360
Speaker 1: deny your food, sleep, make you work crazy hours and

3339
03:11:46,400 --> 03:11:50,000
Speaker 1: do all these things. Um. And that's that's that's the

3340
03:11:50,000 --> 03:11:52,160
Speaker 1: one that really keep the whole calb aspect for me

3341
03:11:52,360 --> 03:11:55,119
Speaker 1: was the hyper vigilance cycle. The studies that have gone

3342
03:11:55,160 --> 03:11:58,600
Speaker 1: into it. UM. I learned about it from a book

3343
03:11:59,080 --> 03:12:01,400
Speaker 1: this little guy right here. It's called Emotional Survival for

3344
03:12:01,480 --> 03:12:05,560
Speaker 1: Law Enforcement. It's by Kevin M. Gil Martin, PhD. He's

3345
03:12:05,600 --> 03:12:08,720
Speaker 1: an X cop who kind of PhD in neuroscience and

3346
03:12:08,800 --> 03:12:13,720
Speaker 1: studies studied cops brains and got to see how they function.

3347
03:12:13,800 --> 03:12:15,440
Speaker 1: And he's the one that kind of coined this whole

3348
03:12:15,520 --> 03:12:20,359
Speaker 1: hyper vigilance cycle of you're always edging at this parasympathetic

3349
03:12:20,480 --> 03:12:24,519
Speaker 1: fight flight or freeze response time when you're on duty. Yeah,

3350
03:12:24,760 --> 03:12:27,039
Speaker 1: it just stays up there the entire time. I'm sure

3351
03:12:27,160 --> 03:12:29,160
Speaker 1: soldiers about the same thing, funk. I'm sure you had

3352
03:12:29,160 --> 03:12:31,480
Speaker 1: the same thing, Robert when you were doing your war

3353
03:12:31,560 --> 03:12:37,320
Speaker 1: journalism stuff, man, or fuck just being in Portland last year. Yeah. Yeah,

3354
03:12:37,360 --> 03:12:40,560
Speaker 1: it keeps you at that edge, that cresting peak, and

3355
03:12:40,600 --> 03:12:44,160
Speaker 1: then you crash and you get back up and boom,

3356
03:12:44,200 --> 03:12:47,800
Speaker 1: you peek up again and then you crash, And it's

3357
03:12:47,840 --> 03:12:50,240
Speaker 1: almost like a drug. Your brain becomes addicted to that

3358
03:12:50,480 --> 03:12:53,720
Speaker 1: peeked out feeling that you get from the hyper vigilance

3359
03:12:53,760 --> 03:12:55,920
Speaker 1: because you do here a little better, you see a

3360
03:12:55,920 --> 03:12:58,840
Speaker 1: little brother better, your brains moving a little faster because

3361
03:12:58,840 --> 03:13:02,119
Speaker 1: there's that high the amount of adrenaline just constantly dripping

3362
03:13:02,120 --> 03:13:05,640
Speaker 1: into your system, and then you crash. And when you

3363
03:13:05,680 --> 03:13:08,440
Speaker 1: crash is when you're not at work, So you start

3364
03:13:08,440 --> 03:13:12,080
Speaker 1: associating not being at work with feeling bad and being

3365
03:13:12,120 --> 03:13:17,000
Speaker 1: at work feels good. Yeah, I mean, the same thing happened.

3366
03:13:17,800 --> 03:13:21,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure Garrison, it happened like during the riots where

3367
03:13:21,280 --> 03:13:24,959
Speaker 1: you would feel shitty when you weren't out there. Um, yes,

3368
03:13:25,240 --> 03:13:27,960
Speaker 1: some days I would go out, not even to just

3369
03:13:28,000 --> 03:13:30,520
Speaker 1: to cover it, just to kind of just stand there

3370
03:13:30,560 --> 03:13:32,840
Speaker 1: like a block away because there was nothing else to do.

3371
03:13:33,200 --> 03:13:35,440
Speaker 1: Like it was, there's like I could sit at home

3372
03:13:35,480 --> 03:13:38,279
Speaker 1: and rest, but I'll just be watching whatever is happening,

3373
03:13:38,320 --> 03:13:41,160
Speaker 1: not doing anything else. You just it it feels it

3374
03:13:41,200 --> 03:13:44,400
Speaker 1: would feel more relaxing just to stand on a street

3375
03:13:44,400 --> 03:13:48,720
Speaker 1: corner and watch people throws stuff over events, because that

3376
03:13:48,720 --> 03:13:50,920
Speaker 1: that that's just that's more relaxing than laying down. It

3377
03:13:51,000 --> 03:13:54,519
Speaker 1: was like it's that a very a very weird disassociate

3378
03:13:54,560 --> 03:13:58,000
Speaker 1: of like feeling that. Yeah, Like my my brain is

3379
03:13:58,640 --> 03:14:00,760
Speaker 1: it's accustomed to this environy it now, so this is

3380
03:14:00,760 --> 03:14:04,200
Speaker 1: the environment I'm gonna be in. Right, And look how

3381
03:14:04,280 --> 03:14:08,560
Speaker 1: fast your brain got into that groove now, you know,

3382
03:14:08,720 --> 03:14:12,120
Speaker 1: imagine doing it for thirty years, yeah, instead of like

3383
03:14:12,200 --> 03:14:14,520
Speaker 1: six months or even though it's it's it's started only

3384
03:14:14,520 --> 03:14:17,960
Speaker 1: after like two months, right, and or even even in

3385
03:14:18,000 --> 03:14:25,520
Speaker 1: some cases like a month. Yeah, it sets in fast. Yeah. Um,

3386
03:14:25,560 --> 03:14:27,640
Speaker 1: all right, so I wanted to get into the kind

3387
03:14:27,640 --> 03:14:31,240
Speaker 1: of the next thing here. Um, the leadership dictates sometimes

3388
03:14:31,240 --> 03:14:33,720
Speaker 1: in great detail how members should think, act and feel.

3389
03:14:33,800 --> 03:14:36,039
Speaker 1: E g. Members must get permission to date, change jobs,

3390
03:14:36,040 --> 03:14:38,280
Speaker 1: are married or Leaders prescribe what to wear, where to live,

3391
03:14:38,280 --> 03:14:41,840
Speaker 1: whether to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth. Um,

3392
03:14:41,959 --> 03:14:45,240
Speaker 1: very classic cult ship, right, like the nut really of

3393
03:14:45,280 --> 03:14:48,080
Speaker 1: what I had. We had all all that stuff when

3394
03:14:48,080 --> 03:14:50,040
Speaker 1: I was a kid. Yeah, I would guess that, like

3395
03:14:51,040 --> 03:14:52,840
Speaker 1: the time, if you ask someone for a quick definition

3396
03:14:52,879 --> 03:14:55,080
Speaker 1: of a cult, this is what they're gonna say something

3397
03:14:55,160 --> 03:14:56,680
Speaker 1: or there. This this is the kind of ship they're

3398
03:14:56,680 --> 03:15:02,039
Speaker 1: going to highlight. Um. And I'm interes did in Yeah,

3399
03:15:02,640 --> 03:15:04,640
Speaker 1: just talk because you already chatted a bit about about this.

3400
03:15:04,760 --> 03:15:06,960
Speaker 1: Just the fact that, like the way in which police

3401
03:15:07,040 --> 03:15:11,440
Speaker 1: policy works kind of restructures how you function off duty,

3402
03:15:11,760 --> 03:15:14,840
Speaker 1: which I think is something that people everyone understands elements

3403
03:15:14,840 --> 03:15:17,400
Speaker 1: of it, right, Like if you're a fucking dishwasher for

3404
03:15:17,440 --> 03:15:21,160
Speaker 1: a living, you will wash dishes differently forever, right Like

3405
03:15:21,200 --> 03:15:24,039
Speaker 1: if you if you bag your like bagsh it at

3406
03:15:24,080 --> 03:15:27,080
Speaker 1: a grocery store, like that's something that you'll always kind

3407
03:15:27,080 --> 03:15:29,000
Speaker 1: of know how to do. Like these bits and pieces

3408
03:15:29,000 --> 03:15:31,720
Speaker 1: of this, but it's not quite the same as what

3409
03:15:31,760 --> 03:15:34,240
Speaker 1: you're talking about. And I want to get kind of

3410
03:15:34,400 --> 03:15:37,520
Speaker 1: into why. Yeah, it's kind of like when you're when

3411
03:15:37,520 --> 03:15:39,680
Speaker 1: you're as an adult, you do something that you're like, oh,

3412
03:15:39,680 --> 03:15:40,920
Speaker 1: I used to do that at my first job and

3413
03:15:40,959 --> 03:15:42,600
Speaker 1: I was like fifteen, But yeah, it does stick with

3414
03:15:42,680 --> 03:15:46,320
Speaker 1: you the muscle. The muscle memory sticks in those narrow

3415
03:15:46,360 --> 03:15:49,120
Speaker 1: pathways that your brain gets carved unless you get the

3416
03:15:49,200 --> 03:15:52,760
Speaker 1: right kinds of mushrooms to fix that. So and then

3417
03:15:52,800 --> 03:15:55,360
Speaker 1: you just throw ship in the bad suck it. Yeah,

3418
03:15:55,600 --> 03:16:00,080
Speaker 1: smooth out those curves. Um. But yeah, the leadership he

3419
03:16:00,120 --> 03:16:02,560
Speaker 1: does dictate. I mean some of them are some of

3420
03:16:02,560 --> 03:16:04,480
Speaker 1: them you can foy and some of the republic you can.

3421
03:16:05,240 --> 03:16:08,600
Speaker 1: You can pull up policies and procedures, standard operating procedures,

3422
03:16:08,600 --> 03:16:10,400
Speaker 1: and you can look at like there's a ton of

3423
03:16:10,400 --> 03:16:12,760
Speaker 1: policies that literally dictate what you are and are not

3424
03:16:12,800 --> 03:16:15,800
Speaker 1: allowed to do in your personal life. Things you're allowed

3425
03:16:15,840 --> 03:16:19,000
Speaker 1: to post on social media, places, you're allowed to go

3426
03:16:19,040 --> 03:16:23,560
Speaker 1: in uniform. And it all just starts like tinking away

3427
03:16:23,720 --> 03:16:25,959
Speaker 1: at your armor of that that sense of identity, that

3428
03:16:26,000 --> 03:16:32,360
Speaker 1: sense of self, and that's how the job becomes your identity. Again.

3429
03:16:32,840 --> 03:16:38,400
Speaker 1: It permeates every corner of your life if you let it. Um,

3430
03:16:38,440 --> 03:16:42,039
Speaker 1: if you don't have, like the I don't know the

3431
03:16:42,160 --> 03:16:44,879
Speaker 1: mental strength to kind of resist that. It washes over

3432
03:16:44,920 --> 03:16:49,280
Speaker 1: your real fast. Because while that's all going on, especially

3433
03:16:49,320 --> 03:16:51,960
Speaker 1: as a young cop, you feel great. You're you're special. Now,

3434
03:16:52,200 --> 03:16:55,119
Speaker 1: you're you're in this, You're in the magic club. You

3435
03:16:55,120 --> 03:16:57,560
Speaker 1: you have the the symbol on your chest and the

3436
03:16:57,560 --> 03:17:01,840
Speaker 1: gun on your hip, and it's really easy to let

3437
03:17:01,879 --> 03:17:06,200
Speaker 1: that slip and just become everything about you. Um yeah,

3438
03:17:06,240 --> 03:17:09,800
Speaker 1: remember permissions like so, permission to date and things like

3439
03:17:09,800 --> 03:17:13,080
Speaker 1: that might sound a little weird, but there are times

3440
03:17:13,080 --> 03:17:16,440
Speaker 1: where like, my wife and I don't dress like the

3441
03:17:16,440 --> 03:17:20,880
Speaker 1: typical conservative Central Valley person. Uh, and at out of

3442
03:17:20,879 --> 03:17:24,680
Speaker 1: work functions I would get I would get comments from

3443
03:17:24,720 --> 03:17:27,240
Speaker 1: people being like, hey, maybe, yeah, your your wife has

3444
03:17:27,280 --> 03:17:30,120
Speaker 1: a lot of really colorful hair, like maybe she should

3445
03:17:30,120 --> 03:17:35,000
Speaker 1: tone that down Jesus for again. That was another one

3446
03:17:35,000 --> 03:17:37,200
Speaker 1: where I'm like, what, No, that's my wife. She can

3447
03:17:37,240 --> 03:17:41,600
Speaker 1: do whatever she damn well wants. Yeah, I mean that's

3448
03:17:41,680 --> 03:17:43,879
Speaker 1: that's that's the kind of talking that should get somebody

3449
03:17:43,920 --> 03:17:51,080
Speaker 1: slapped upside the head. Yeah yeah. Um. The uh. The

3450
03:17:51,120 --> 03:17:53,720
Speaker 1: next thing you have here is the group is elitist,

3451
03:17:53,800 --> 03:17:56,840
Speaker 1: claiming a special exalted status for itself, it's leader and

3452
03:17:56,879 --> 03:17:59,840
Speaker 1: it's members. The leader is And I'm interested in kind

3453
03:17:59,840 --> 03:18:02,160
Speaker 1: of because you you have you have elements of this

3454
03:18:02,320 --> 03:18:05,480
Speaker 1: right um with it, like the sheep dog thing. We're

3455
03:18:05,560 --> 03:18:07,600
Speaker 1: kind of like the cop is the center of the

3456
03:18:07,640 --> 03:18:10,959
Speaker 1: cult for people who are not cop coults. I don't know,

3457
03:18:11,120 --> 03:18:13,760
Speaker 1: like does this exist, Like I don't see like cult,

3458
03:18:13,879 --> 03:18:16,800
Speaker 1: a cult leader sort of within this this thing. I

3459
03:18:16,840 --> 03:18:19,080
Speaker 1: think it's it's almost more nebulous than that, where this

3460
03:18:19,160 --> 03:18:22,760
Speaker 1: idea of the agent of the law is kind of

3461
03:18:22,800 --> 03:18:24,800
Speaker 1: the center of the cult that the people who are

3462
03:18:24,879 --> 03:18:27,720
Speaker 1: agents of the law buy into as well as folks

3463
03:18:27,800 --> 03:18:30,039
Speaker 1: outside of it. You know, I don't know. This is

3464
03:18:30,280 --> 03:18:32,240
Speaker 1: probably deserve any I mean, I'm interested in your thoughts

3465
03:18:32,240 --> 03:18:36,440
Speaker 1: on this. This probably deserves significantly more analysis than we're

3466
03:18:36,480 --> 03:18:38,240
Speaker 1: going to give it today. But I think it's a

3467
03:18:38,240 --> 03:18:40,600
Speaker 1: fascinating thing to think about. Right. It's kind of like

3468
03:18:40,600 --> 03:18:43,520
Speaker 1: how I when I put earlier that the criminal justice

3469
03:18:43,520 --> 03:18:46,360
Speaker 1: system is the direct substitute for God. It is God,

3470
03:18:46,440 --> 03:18:48,840
Speaker 1: the law is God. I mean, how many times have

3471
03:18:48,879 --> 03:18:51,560
Speaker 1: you gotten into a debate with someone where they'll be like, well,

3472
03:18:51,720 --> 03:18:54,400
Speaker 1: it's ethically fine because it's legal, and you're like, well, No,

3473
03:18:54,560 --> 03:18:59,280
Speaker 1: legality does not equal you know, ethical or moral and there.

3474
03:18:59,400 --> 03:19:02,320
Speaker 1: But there's these people in America who are just like, no,

3475
03:19:02,400 --> 03:19:05,560
Speaker 1: if it's legal, it's legal, that means it's okay. Yeah.

3476
03:19:05,600 --> 03:19:09,320
Speaker 1: And the elitism, Yeah, it's obvious. I mean if you've

3477
03:19:09,360 --> 03:19:11,680
Speaker 1: met it's kind of a religious belief though that like, yeah,

3478
03:19:11,879 --> 03:19:14,600
Speaker 1: it's illegal, so it's bad. She there were a criminal,

3479
03:19:14,680 --> 03:19:19,519
Speaker 1: so they deserved X. Like making a making a homebrewed

3480
03:19:19,520 --> 03:19:21,560
Speaker 1: cleric that believed in the law for D and D

3481
03:19:21,760 --> 03:19:25,040
Speaker 1: was pretty easy, uh, to be like, yeah, this is

3482
03:19:25,080 --> 03:19:28,880
Speaker 1: a church, this is a religion. Um, yeah it is.

3483
03:19:28,959 --> 03:19:31,039
Speaker 1: It is the sheep dog 'm on on sheep and

3484
03:19:31,080 --> 03:19:32,879
Speaker 1: the you know, it's us against the wolves and blah

3485
03:19:32,879 --> 03:19:35,840
Speaker 1: blah blah. And then we have a guy's name in

3486
03:19:35,879 --> 03:19:39,200
Speaker 1: here that I won't say for anonymity. But we had

3487
03:19:39,240 --> 03:19:41,200
Speaker 1: we had a Braska a lieutenant that would give us

3488
03:19:41,200 --> 03:19:44,760
Speaker 1: these prepared speeches whenever he thought someone's morale was getting low,

3489
03:19:45,879 --> 03:19:48,280
Speaker 1: where he would talk about how and he was wrong

3490
03:19:48,480 --> 03:19:52,760
Speaker 1: that the word sheriff comes from uh like Sanskrit or

3491
03:19:52,840 --> 03:19:56,959
Speaker 1: Arabic sharif, which is not true. It comes from shire Reeve.

3492
03:19:57,000 --> 03:19:59,840
Speaker 1: It's old English, just squished because English is a hideous

3493
03:19:59,879 --> 03:20:03,640
Speaker 1: l which Um, but he had to. I mean, I

3494
03:20:04,120 --> 03:20:06,400
Speaker 1: can't count how many times he told me that exact

3495
03:20:06,400 --> 03:20:10,400
Speaker 1: same speech to my face, over and over again, as

3496
03:20:10,440 --> 03:20:12,839
Speaker 1: if it was the first time I was hearing the story.

3497
03:20:13,480 --> 03:20:15,640
Speaker 1: And it's to me that was another thing to click

3498
03:20:15,680 --> 03:20:17,440
Speaker 1: where I'm like, God, it's like talking, It's like a

3499
03:20:17,480 --> 03:20:21,240
Speaker 1: call and response when you're in church. Sometimes. Yeah, any

3500
03:20:21,240 --> 03:20:24,800
Speaker 1: time you confront a religious person, they just to have

3501
03:20:25,000 --> 03:20:29,119
Speaker 1: that that that that dogmatic skeew that regurgitates and just like, well,

3502
03:20:29,160 --> 03:20:31,039
Speaker 1: here's my opinion that I was told by someone who

3503
03:20:31,040 --> 03:20:35,560
Speaker 1: told me. Okay, So Alexander, UM, we've got more to say.

3504
03:20:35,560 --> 03:20:37,400
Speaker 1: You've got a lot more that you've written here. Um,

3505
03:20:37,560 --> 03:20:39,640
Speaker 1: we're gonna we've gone kind of a little over the

3506
03:20:39,680 --> 03:20:41,640
Speaker 1: time we had here. So I want to have you

3507
03:20:41,720 --> 03:20:44,960
Speaker 1: back on tomorrow for part two of this. Before we

3508
03:20:45,080 --> 03:20:47,400
Speaker 1: roll out, do you have anything you'd like to plug?

3509
03:20:48,080 --> 03:20:53,440
Speaker 1: Maybe the Washington State Patrol? No, Um, No, I don't

3510
03:20:53,440 --> 03:20:55,920
Speaker 1: really have anything to plug. I'm I'm never say die

3511
03:20:56,160 --> 03:20:59,160
Speaker 1: where all the easier threes because I'm that elder nerd

3512
03:20:59,360 --> 03:21:04,760
Speaker 1: from the ninety Yeah, and uh saw hackers in the theater.

3513
03:21:04,840 --> 03:21:08,040
Speaker 1: I it's claimed to fame on Twitter if you want

3514
03:21:08,040 --> 03:21:14,200
Speaker 1: to come see me. How are your hips doing? I

3515
03:21:14,320 --> 03:21:19,360
Speaker 1: talk about that. It's okay, Garrison's never seen Wayne's World.

3516
03:21:20,480 --> 03:21:24,840
Speaker 1: Oh I know that's true. That's true. Too young. I

3517
03:21:24,879 --> 03:21:27,680
Speaker 1: tried to show Wayne's World to my brother, who's still

3518
03:21:27,720 --> 03:21:30,879
Speaker 1: like five years older than Garrison, and did not take.

3519
03:21:31,320 --> 03:21:35,520
Speaker 1: Didn't take. It's it's a it's a time thing. My

3520
03:21:35,720 --> 03:21:38,560
Speaker 1: oldest is about four years younger than Garrison, and they've

3521
03:21:38,600 --> 03:22:04,200
Speaker 1: seen Wayne's World. I'm just wow. Okay, uh oh where

3522
03:22:04,240 --> 03:22:08,199
Speaker 1: it's us? The podcast that we are. It could happen

3523
03:22:08,240 --> 03:22:13,640
Speaker 1: here behind the podcast bad stuff. It could happen here,

3524
03:22:14,000 --> 03:22:16,720
Speaker 1: it is, it could happen here. Okay. Well, Part two

3525
03:22:16,760 --> 03:22:19,879
Speaker 1: of Why Police Are Occult? Thanks Garrison, Thanks for doing

3526
03:22:19,920 --> 03:22:23,080
Speaker 1: the job that is one of our jobs, certainly, but

3527
03:22:23,400 --> 03:22:29,200
Speaker 1: apparently not mine. Alexander Williams back again, Um, Alexander? How

3528
03:22:29,240 --> 03:22:32,119
Speaker 1: are you? How are you feeling good? Is your life

3529
03:22:32,160 --> 03:22:34,320
Speaker 1: in a radically different place now than it was when

3530
03:22:34,320 --> 03:22:41,120
Speaker 1: we ended part one? Oh? Yeah? Like no, Well that's

3531
03:22:41,120 --> 03:22:43,720
Speaker 1: for the best, because anything that would change in about

3532
03:22:43,760 --> 03:22:46,360
Speaker 1: the thirty seconds between these episodes probably would not have

3533
03:22:46,440 --> 03:22:49,959
Speaker 1: been a positive change. You're letting the magic out. People

3534
03:22:49,959 --> 03:22:55,240
Speaker 1: are gonna know. Yeah, they should know already. Uh So

3535
03:22:56,280 --> 03:22:58,080
Speaker 1: the next thing you've got here in terms of cult

3536
03:22:58,160 --> 03:23:02,400
Speaker 1: characteristics that you saw inside the police is the group

3537
03:23:02,400 --> 03:23:04,960
Speaker 1: has a polarized us versus them mentality, which may cause

3538
03:23:05,040 --> 03:23:10,280
Speaker 1: conflict with the wider society. Um yeah, And I think

3539
03:23:10,280 --> 03:23:12,520
Speaker 1: this is the one that like, yeah, we've all we

3540
03:23:12,560 --> 03:23:15,160
Speaker 1: all kind of saw that one. Actually, are you sure

3541
03:23:15,160 --> 03:23:18,760
Speaker 1: about that one? I'm not convinced. Yeah, it was a

3542
03:23:18,840 --> 03:23:24,920
Speaker 1: Eureka moment, right Yeah. Um, I do think it's probably

3543
03:23:24,920 --> 03:23:27,600
Speaker 1: worth a little bit of exploration about like what it

3544
03:23:27,800 --> 03:23:33,840
Speaker 1: means emotionally to be told like I want to defund

3545
03:23:33,920 --> 03:23:36,680
Speaker 1: or even abolish the police as a police officer, Like

3546
03:23:36,760 --> 03:23:43,560
Speaker 1: that's that's a um yeah. Yeah. I remember the first

3547
03:23:43,600 --> 03:23:46,480
Speaker 1: time that I heard that, the concept of it when

3548
03:23:46,480 --> 03:23:48,280
Speaker 1: I was a cop. I think I was about five

3549
03:23:48,360 --> 03:23:52,240
Speaker 1: years away from getting out, um, and it blew my mind.

3550
03:23:52,280 --> 03:23:54,560
Speaker 1: It was it was like I'm like, you don't know,

3551
03:23:54,680 --> 03:23:56,959
Speaker 1: we don't have enough funding, Like how how in the world?

3552
03:23:57,360 --> 03:23:59,720
Speaker 1: But we can't do our job because you know, in

3553
03:23:59,760 --> 03:24:03,920
Speaker 1: our in my head, we're we're the thing holding society up.

3554
03:24:03,959 --> 03:24:08,320
Speaker 1: If we're not here, everything falls apart and crumbles. Um.

3555
03:24:08,520 --> 03:24:10,600
Speaker 1: So the idea of being told like we need to

3556
03:24:10,640 --> 03:24:14,120
Speaker 1: defund the police. For cops, it's it's an attack on

3557
03:24:14,200 --> 03:24:16,720
Speaker 1: your values and your role in the world. It's also

3558
03:24:16,720 --> 03:24:20,480
Speaker 1: attack on like your personal life because because your life

3559
03:24:20,520 --> 03:24:23,600
Speaker 1: is police as well, right, and and and it's and

3560
03:24:23,640 --> 03:24:26,240
Speaker 1: it's like you're you've you've been talking a lot about

3561
03:24:26,240 --> 03:24:29,119
Speaker 1: how the job becomes such a central part of your

3562
03:24:29,120 --> 03:24:32,600
Speaker 1: identity that it's not even just attacking like your paycheck,

3563
03:24:32,640 --> 03:24:35,520
Speaker 1: but it's attacking like your essence now as a person.

3564
03:24:36,120 --> 03:24:38,200
Speaker 1: It is it's like if you've ever had a debate

3565
03:24:38,240 --> 03:24:43,240
Speaker 1: with with an extremely like evangelical religious person, it's the

3566
03:24:43,240 --> 03:24:44,879
Speaker 1: same as trying to tell a cop like, hey, you

3567
03:24:44,920 --> 03:24:47,760
Speaker 1: don't actually hold society up. You're not exactly as important

3568
03:24:47,800 --> 03:24:50,720
Speaker 1: as you think you are. Um And like I said, like,

3569
03:24:50,760 --> 03:24:52,600
Speaker 1: we don't get we don't get paid very much. Health

3570
03:24:52,640 --> 03:24:56,480
Speaker 1: insurance usually isn't that good um our our unions that

3571
03:24:56,560 --> 03:24:59,199
Speaker 1: we toad as being the best, we're usually pretty corrupt um.

3572
03:25:00,080 --> 03:25:02,440
Speaker 1: And they don't really go to bat for us and

3573
03:25:02,480 --> 03:25:04,160
Speaker 1: get us the good health insurance and get us the

3574
03:25:04,200 --> 03:25:06,800
Speaker 1: good pay. They get us just enough. And so when

3575
03:25:06,800 --> 03:25:09,240
Speaker 1: a cop here's like, hey, we defund the police, it's

3576
03:25:09,280 --> 03:25:13,280
Speaker 1: like from our perspective, we think what we're hearing is

3577
03:25:13,400 --> 03:25:15,680
Speaker 1: we don't appreciate you. We already think you get paid

3578
03:25:15,680 --> 03:25:18,760
Speaker 1: too much. We we think of it less about like

3579
03:25:18,840 --> 03:25:21,520
Speaker 1: the structure of law enforcement, and we think it personally

3580
03:25:21,520 --> 03:25:24,680
Speaker 1: of like, oh, you don't think my kids should have dinner? Yeah,

3581
03:25:25,080 --> 03:25:28,400
Speaker 1: and that's uh, I mean, yeah, of course that has

3582
03:25:28,520 --> 03:25:30,959
Speaker 1: like of course it ends the way that we saw

3583
03:25:30,959 --> 03:25:33,560
Speaker 1: it in you know, or at least it continues the

3584
03:25:33,600 --> 03:25:36,520
Speaker 1: way we saw it and continue last year, right, And

3585
03:25:37,120 --> 03:25:40,840
Speaker 1: and it's I think it could help like people like

3586
03:25:40,920 --> 03:25:42,840
Speaker 1: us are on one side of the line and you know,

3587
03:25:42,959 --> 03:25:44,240
Speaker 1: the other people are on the other side of the

3588
03:25:44,280 --> 03:25:47,040
Speaker 1: line still, and I think it could help people on

3589
03:25:47,080 --> 03:25:49,520
Speaker 1: our side of the of the of the barricades to

3590
03:25:49,680 --> 03:25:53,360
Speaker 1: understand just how willing these guys are to do things

3591
03:25:53,800 --> 03:25:56,879
Speaker 1: and things that they wouldn't normally do, things that you

3592
03:25:56,879 --> 03:26:00,240
Speaker 1: would never consider doing on your own, but for the

3593
03:26:00,320 --> 03:26:04,680
Speaker 1: job and as an order, they'll do it because again,

3594
03:26:04,720 --> 03:26:08,039
Speaker 1: it's part of their identity, and it's it's there. You know,

3595
03:26:08,080 --> 03:26:10,640
Speaker 1: you're attacking me, You're also attacking my family, You're you're

3596
03:26:11,680 --> 03:26:14,280
Speaker 1: it goes back to that grossman thing of being told

3597
03:26:14,320 --> 03:26:18,879
Speaker 1: a lot of Um, no matter what you do, you

3598
03:26:18,959 --> 03:26:21,400
Speaker 1: go home tonight. So no matter what I do on

3599
03:26:21,440 --> 03:26:24,000
Speaker 1: my shift, I go home tonight. It's better to be

3600
03:26:24,400 --> 03:26:30,599
Speaker 1: judged by twelve and carried by six. Yeah that one. Yeah,

3601
03:26:32,040 --> 03:26:34,200
Speaker 1: Like I'm thinking of like the police of the riot line,

3602
03:26:34,200 --> 03:26:36,720
Speaker 1: and yeah, you can see them being like middle aged

3603
03:26:36,720 --> 03:26:40,160
Speaker 1: conservative dudes, like look at all these like fucking like

3604
03:26:40,440 --> 03:26:43,560
Speaker 1: gay queer teenagers throwing suffet me. Right, it's like the

3605
03:26:43,640 --> 03:26:46,560
Speaker 1: specific thing you're like, oh you you like I'm getting

3606
03:26:46,600 --> 03:26:48,920
Speaker 1: attacked by like the lowest of the low society. I'm

3607
03:26:49,080 --> 03:26:52,120
Speaker 1: being attacked by like did like degenerates and like this

3608
03:26:52,320 --> 03:26:56,280
Speaker 1: weird kind of scum. I'm actually what society should be.

3609
03:26:56,560 --> 03:26:58,920
Speaker 1: The people that are fighting against me are like this

3610
03:26:59,040 --> 03:27:01,959
Speaker 1: weird anti so sual thing, right, That's that's how it

3611
03:27:02,040 --> 03:27:06,040
Speaker 1: is from their perspective. Um, when almost an actuality. I've

3612
03:27:06,080 --> 03:27:09,440
Speaker 1: been I've been slowly kind of appropriating that type of

3613
03:27:09,520 --> 03:27:11,960
Speaker 1: language for when I see a cop do something horrible,

3614
03:27:12,000 --> 03:27:15,120
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, look at that, like anti social, violent freak.

3615
03:27:15,440 --> 03:27:18,359
Speaker 1: Because you can look at that language because it flips

3616
03:27:18,400 --> 03:27:22,400
Speaker 1: the way we usually view like aesthetics. When you know,

3617
03:27:22,720 --> 03:27:25,760
Speaker 1: because like when you see someone do something horribly horribly violent,

3618
03:27:25,840 --> 03:27:27,800
Speaker 1: but they addressed in a uniform. It is it has

3619
03:27:27,840 --> 03:27:30,400
Speaker 1: the appearance of being proper, but like, no, that actually

3620
03:27:30,440 --> 03:27:33,520
Speaker 1: still is anti social and extremely violent. So I think

3621
03:27:33,959 --> 03:27:37,240
Speaker 1: I've been playing around with like flip flipping that language,

3622
03:27:37,280 --> 03:27:39,160
Speaker 1: but you can definitely see it on the cops faces

3623
03:27:39,480 --> 03:27:42,480
Speaker 1: when a whole bunch of like young queer as fun

3624
03:27:42,600 --> 03:27:45,920
Speaker 1: people are throwing water bottles at them. Oh yeah, you can't.

3625
03:27:45,959 --> 03:27:47,640
Speaker 1: And and the thing that to the thing to remember

3626
03:27:47,680 --> 03:27:51,640
Speaker 1: about most cops is they're there. Their ego is paper thin,

3627
03:27:51,959 --> 03:27:55,360
Speaker 1: their skin. They cannot take a joke, they cannot take

3628
03:27:55,360 --> 03:27:58,680
Speaker 1: an insult. The the number of cops that I would see,

3629
03:27:58,760 --> 03:28:00,320
Speaker 1: and I would argue that I saw some of the

3630
03:28:00,360 --> 03:28:03,440
Speaker 1: worst worst behavior than on the streets, because because inside

3631
03:28:03,480 --> 03:28:05,760
Speaker 1: the jail you're you know, you're in your own little world.

3632
03:28:05,840 --> 03:28:08,120
Speaker 1: You're inside these walls. The public can't see you unless

3633
03:28:08,120 --> 03:28:11,160
Speaker 1: you're on camera and prebody cameras, you know where all

3634
03:28:11,160 --> 03:28:15,600
Speaker 1: the cameras are. And I the the amount of guys

3635
03:28:15,640 --> 03:28:17,960
Speaker 1: that like an inmate would call them like the f

3636
03:28:18,080 --> 03:28:23,000
Speaker 1: slur or any other slur, and the cop would just snap,

3637
03:28:23,400 --> 03:28:28,680
Speaker 1: we just lose their mind. And me and another couple

3638
03:28:28,720 --> 03:28:30,440
Speaker 1: other guys being the only kind of cops that would

3639
03:28:30,440 --> 03:28:32,000
Speaker 1: get in the guy's way and be like no. And

3640
03:28:32,040 --> 03:28:34,400
Speaker 1: it was never we couldn't say no, that's wrong, don't

3641
03:28:34,400 --> 03:28:36,800
Speaker 1: do that. It was always no, it's not worth it,

3642
03:28:36,879 --> 03:28:39,400
Speaker 1: or no, you're gonna get in trouble, or no, you

3643
03:28:39,400 --> 03:28:42,160
Speaker 1: know if you do that, he wins man, because if

3644
03:28:42,200 --> 03:28:46,080
Speaker 1: we said don't do that, it's wrong, we may have

3645
03:28:46,200 --> 03:28:48,400
Speaker 1: we may have stopped that bad thing from happening, but

3646
03:28:48,680 --> 03:28:52,560
Speaker 1: we have now marked ourselves as being, you know, potential

3647
03:28:52,640 --> 03:29:00,200
Speaker 1: apostates against the close. Um. So yeah, that's yeah, calling

3648
03:29:00,240 --> 03:29:02,760
Speaker 1: them names works. Six and stones do breaktops bones, Like,

3649
03:29:02,840 --> 03:29:05,080
Speaker 1: oh boy, it does work. Like in terms of if

3650
03:29:05,200 --> 03:29:09,840
Speaker 1: if the goal is make them extremely angry, yes, it

3651
03:29:09,920 --> 03:29:16,440
Speaker 1: doesn't work. It's yeah. Obviously the next one you've got

3652
03:29:16,520 --> 03:29:19,720
Speaker 1: is the leader. The leader is not accountable to any authorities, um,

3653
03:29:19,840 --> 03:29:22,960
Speaker 1: which the police regulate and investigate themselves. That's one of

3654
03:29:23,000 --> 03:29:25,879
Speaker 1: the most basic ones. But it does it kind of,

3655
03:29:25,879 --> 03:29:28,800
Speaker 1: It does lead to this, like it is interesting to

3656
03:29:28,840 --> 03:29:32,879
Speaker 1: think about the way the Church of Scientology handles uh

3657
03:29:33,040 --> 03:29:36,120
Speaker 1: misbehavior from its agents and the way that like a

3658
03:29:36,160 --> 03:29:39,080
Speaker 1: police department does. Because there's not a ton of daylight

3659
03:29:39,160 --> 03:29:41,960
Speaker 1: betwixt the two, there's not listening to you the l

3660
03:29:42,040 --> 03:29:45,000
Speaker 1: Ron episodes. Anyone who hasn't listened to them, go back

3661
03:29:45,000 --> 03:29:47,800
Speaker 1: and listen to them. They're fantastic. One of my favorites.

3662
03:29:48,400 --> 03:29:51,280
Speaker 1: Um yeah, listening to that. And the way that they're

3663
03:29:51,280 --> 03:29:55,680
Speaker 1: a little internalized security system was structured was very, very

3664
03:29:55,760 --> 03:29:59,080
Speaker 1: analog to exactly what happens in law enforcement when they're

3665
03:29:59,080 --> 03:30:05,160
Speaker 1: sowing so policing themselves b s because god they don't.

3666
03:30:05,959 --> 03:30:09,879
Speaker 1: They'll do every little thing to manipulate the situation to

3667
03:30:10,000 --> 03:30:12,200
Speaker 1: have the cop come out on top and not be

3668
03:30:12,240 --> 03:30:15,560
Speaker 1: in trouble because who's gonna all them responsible? That my

3669
03:30:15,600 --> 03:30:19,280
Speaker 1: own guy at my own department's interviewing me. We've known

3670
03:30:19,320 --> 03:30:22,080
Speaker 1: each other since you were kids, or I've known his dad,

3671
03:30:22,240 --> 03:30:25,320
Speaker 1: or his dad's known me, or or he's you know,

3672
03:30:25,560 --> 03:30:29,720
Speaker 1: related or whatever. It never works when the you know,

3673
03:30:29,760 --> 03:30:33,480
Speaker 1: the watchmen are watching themselves. It doesn't work. I don't

3674
03:30:33,480 --> 03:30:36,600
Speaker 1: know how. We don't, well I do, you know how,

3675
03:30:36,760 --> 03:30:39,400
Speaker 1: But I really wish there was if we do have

3676
03:30:39,480 --> 03:30:44,800
Speaker 1: to still have law enforcement, civilian oversight with actual power,

3677
03:30:45,680 --> 03:30:48,840
Speaker 1: actual authority to do. Yeah, that's that's the thing is

3678
03:30:48,840 --> 03:30:51,000
Speaker 1: that everywhere and a lot of the times that's been

3679
03:30:51,640 --> 03:30:56,279
Speaker 1: try to put into legislator. It doesn't. It's always like neutered,

3680
03:30:56,440 --> 03:30:59,959
Speaker 1: It's always like and I'm like, I've I've seen version

3681
03:31:00,040 --> 03:31:03,080
Speaker 1: of it pop up in Portland and it just never

3682
03:31:03,240 --> 03:31:07,080
Speaker 1: does anything. Yeah, And that's I mean, obviously the whole

3683
03:31:07,200 --> 03:31:11,119
Speaker 1: the question of is to what extent can increasing civilian

3684
03:31:11,160 --> 03:31:14,280
Speaker 1: oversight UH solve problems? To what extent is it like

3685
03:31:15,080 --> 03:31:19,039
Speaker 1: papering over them? Those are all things worth discussing. UM.

3686
03:31:19,080 --> 03:31:20,959
Speaker 1: I think I want to kind of keep us focused

3687
03:31:21,040 --> 03:31:25,280
Speaker 1: on the mindset that that inflcates, because that that's the

3688
03:31:25,320 --> 03:31:28,440
Speaker 1: thing that I don't think people get in part because

3689
03:31:28,480 --> 03:31:31,440
Speaker 1: like most people who are part of these abolitionous movements,

3690
03:31:31,480 --> 03:31:33,480
Speaker 1: most people who are are on the sides that we

3691
03:31:33,560 --> 03:31:37,160
Speaker 1: are on this um either probably don't know a police

3692
03:31:37,160 --> 03:31:39,720
Speaker 1: officer very well apart and certainly almost most of them

3693
03:31:39,720 --> 03:31:42,840
Speaker 1: have not been police officers. And I'm kind of wondering,

3694
03:31:44,800 --> 03:31:48,199
Speaker 1: what are you actually scared of doing as a police officer,

3695
03:31:48,920 --> 03:31:51,800
Speaker 1: Like what what what are you actually scared of in

3696
03:31:51,920 --> 03:31:55,280
Speaker 1: terms of like the blowback, the fault, Like, what what

3697
03:31:55,400 --> 03:31:57,760
Speaker 1: is it you actually get worried about if it's not

3698
03:31:59,000 --> 03:32:01,280
Speaker 1: pissing off everyone else in the city who wasn't a cop,

3699
03:32:01,360 --> 03:32:06,320
Speaker 1: you know. So Yeah, what it comes down to is, uh,

3700
03:32:06,360 --> 03:32:09,280
Speaker 1: you know that the the church of law, the Church

3701
03:32:09,320 --> 03:32:13,800
Speaker 1: of criminal justice, and what they're scared of is so

3702
03:32:13,840 --> 03:32:17,600
Speaker 1: if I get a dirty cop who's not blatantly doing

3703
03:32:17,680 --> 03:32:19,920
Speaker 1: something bad, like he just he hit a guy too

3704
03:32:19,920 --> 03:32:24,600
Speaker 1: hard or something, it's something that hasn't hit the news yet. Um,

3705
03:32:24,640 --> 03:32:27,720
Speaker 1: but I have to morally, like ethically, on paper, I'm

3706
03:32:27,800 --> 03:32:30,520
Speaker 1: required to have an I A division investigate these people.

3707
03:32:31,440 --> 03:32:35,040
Speaker 1: The reason that in my head when I was there

3708
03:32:35,320 --> 03:32:38,480
Speaker 1: and being interviewed for these things, it's because you have

3709
03:32:38,600 --> 03:32:42,879
Speaker 1: to hold up the infallibility of the law. It doesn't

3710
03:32:42,959 --> 03:32:47,400
Speaker 1: matter what really happened. All that matters is what's in

3711
03:32:47,480 --> 03:32:49,879
Speaker 1: black and white on paper in our files. If we

3712
03:32:49,920 --> 03:32:53,760
Speaker 1: ever get audited by a federal body and we can say, look,

3713
03:32:53,840 --> 03:32:56,400
Speaker 1: a bad thing happened, Yes we investigated it, here's what

3714
03:32:56,520 --> 03:32:59,840
Speaker 1: Here were the results. And it's all about holding up

3715
03:33:00,080 --> 03:33:04,080
Speaker 1: the infallibility of the law, because if it really gets

3716
03:33:04,080 --> 03:33:06,800
Speaker 1: out and cops really get in trouble for stuff like

3717
03:33:06,840 --> 03:33:08,879
Speaker 1: some of the stuff that's been happening where cops are

3718
03:33:08,879 --> 03:33:13,760
Speaker 1: actually being convicted finally for doing terrible things, it erodes

3719
03:33:14,400 --> 03:33:17,959
Speaker 1: the blind faith that the masses have in law enforcement.

3720
03:33:18,000 --> 03:33:21,160
Speaker 1: Because I've heard people here in Utah, which is a

3721
03:33:21,280 --> 03:33:24,840
Speaker 1: very conservative place, look at some of those shootings that

3722
03:33:24,879 --> 03:33:26,880
Speaker 1: have happened where the cops have actually been found guilty

3723
03:33:26,920 --> 03:33:29,920
Speaker 1: and they've actually been like, oh wow, like I never

3724
03:33:29,959 --> 03:33:31,960
Speaker 1: once thought a cop would do this, And it doesn't

3725
03:33:32,000 --> 03:33:34,039
Speaker 1: sound like much, but in their head, that's that's a

3726
03:33:34,080 --> 03:33:38,600
Speaker 1: seed that's setting in their consciousness. And that's that's the

3727
03:33:38,640 --> 03:33:41,960
Speaker 1: whole point of the blue wall of silence and keeping

3728
03:33:41,959 --> 03:33:47,040
Speaker 1: everything in the house is if everybody realizes that we're

3729
03:33:47,080 --> 03:33:49,520
Speaker 1: just a little weird man behind a curtain, you know,

3730
03:33:49,600 --> 03:33:51,800
Speaker 1: the Wizard of Oz doesn't work anymore. We have to

3731
03:33:51,879 --> 03:33:57,039
Speaker 1: maintain this false image that we are infallible and we

3732
03:33:57,080 --> 03:33:59,440
Speaker 1: know we know exactly what we're doing, and we are

3733
03:33:59,480 --> 03:34:02,480
Speaker 1: taking care of you. You have to believe that. So

3734
03:34:02,520 --> 03:34:08,440
Speaker 1: they'll do anything to maintain the lie. Wow. Yeah that

3735
03:34:08,480 --> 03:34:13,240
Speaker 1: makes sense. It's bleak, but it makes sense. Yeah, it

3736
03:34:13,320 --> 03:34:20,640
Speaker 1: felt bleeping in there. This ties into kind of the

3737
03:34:20,640 --> 03:34:23,200
Speaker 1: the role of like lying right and and and the

3738
03:34:23,280 --> 03:34:25,080
Speaker 1: kind of the cult thing you're tying this into is

3739
03:34:25,120 --> 03:34:29,160
Speaker 1: that like colts will often talk about how the things

3740
03:34:29,160 --> 03:34:30,880
Speaker 1: the cult is doing are so important that you can

3741
03:34:30,920 --> 03:34:32,879
Speaker 1: do terrible things to achieve them. Right. You see this

3742
03:34:32,920 --> 03:34:35,800
Speaker 1: in the Church of Scientology and their dirty tricks programs.

3743
03:34:35,840 --> 03:34:39,160
Speaker 1: Sent and On had its its version of this. Um

3744
03:34:39,200 --> 03:34:41,080
Speaker 1: and you you've written here we are taught to lie

3745
03:34:41,160 --> 03:34:43,240
Speaker 1: to get what we need. It's only true if it's

3746
03:34:43,240 --> 03:34:45,560
Speaker 1: on tape or written down. As long as it looks good,

3747
03:34:45,640 --> 03:34:49,520
Speaker 1: it is good. Um and I uh, I mean it.

3748
03:34:49,640 --> 03:34:53,000
Speaker 1: It made me think, among other things, of a guy

3749
03:34:53,040 --> 03:34:58,520
Speaker 1: I used to know who became a local prosecutor. Um

3750
03:34:58,760 --> 03:35:03,160
Speaker 1: and eventually quick it because he kept being assured by

3751
03:35:03,280 --> 03:35:06,480
Speaker 1: police officers that like something that they had put in

3752
03:35:06,680 --> 03:35:09,160
Speaker 1: like the charging document was true, and then being unable

3753
03:35:09,200 --> 03:35:12,199
Speaker 1: to prove it in court. Um and it it pissed

3754
03:35:12,240 --> 03:35:16,760
Speaker 1: him off after a period of time. Um And I'm interested,

3755
03:35:16,879 --> 03:35:21,440
Speaker 1: like in the I'm sure like obviously some fraction of

3756
03:35:21,480 --> 03:35:24,039
Speaker 1: people doing it are just like just literally don't give

3757
03:35:24,040 --> 03:35:26,920
Speaker 1: a ship. But how does someone who actually does have

3758
03:35:27,000 --> 03:35:30,800
Speaker 1: a moral compass and believe in the law. How does

3759
03:35:30,840 --> 03:35:38,519
Speaker 1: someone who really believes justify lying to screw somebody over. Um.

3760
03:35:39,760 --> 03:35:42,200
Speaker 1: So as the guy who was there, who had morals,

3761
03:35:42,200 --> 03:35:46,200
Speaker 1: which is why I'm not there anymore, I couldn't all right,

3762
03:35:46,240 --> 03:35:48,600
Speaker 1: And I actually got in trouble on a couple of

3763
03:35:48,640 --> 03:35:54,160
Speaker 1: instances of everybody was going one way on a story

3764
03:35:54,360 --> 03:35:57,640
Speaker 1: and I was going in the opposite direction, and without

3765
03:35:58,080 --> 03:36:00,720
Speaker 1: using blatant terms, they use all the like the little

3766
03:36:01,640 --> 03:36:04,320
Speaker 1: you know, legal legal fuckory terms to not say what

3767
03:36:04,400 --> 03:36:06,600
Speaker 1: they're trying to say, but implying and getting it across

3768
03:36:06,640 --> 03:36:08,280
Speaker 1: to you of like you need to get on the

3769
03:36:08,320 --> 03:36:11,160
Speaker 1: same page, you need to tow the line, you need

3770
03:36:11,200 --> 03:36:14,800
Speaker 1: to you need to get in here. And I could

3771
03:36:14,879 --> 03:36:19,000
Speaker 1: never do it. I just I don't know, it's just

3772
03:36:19,040 --> 03:36:22,520
Speaker 1: my moral fiber won't let me do that kind of thing. Um.

3773
03:36:22,560 --> 03:36:26,920
Speaker 1: I once was told by a lieutenant that I had

3774
03:36:27,120 --> 03:36:29,920
Speaker 1: my moral fiber was too high, Like he literally told me,

3775
03:36:29,920 --> 03:36:31,520
Speaker 1: because you can't expect everyone else to live up to

3776
03:36:31,560 --> 03:36:36,040
Speaker 1: your moral standards. And I'm like, dude, we're we're supposed

3777
03:36:36,080 --> 03:36:39,760
Speaker 1: to be like a little bit above the typical moral standard.

3778
03:36:39,800 --> 03:36:43,039
Speaker 1: We're supposed to be the example of how you know,

3779
03:36:43,240 --> 03:36:48,240
Speaker 1: our civilians, our citizens are supposed to act. But it

3780
03:36:48,280 --> 03:36:51,879
Speaker 1: wasn't the truth. Yeah, I mean, my first I think

3781
03:36:51,959 --> 03:36:55,080
Speaker 1: kind of radicalizing thing very early on was just like

3782
03:36:55,120 --> 03:36:57,520
Speaker 1: the fake drug scandal in Dallas, was realizing that like

3783
03:36:57,560 --> 03:37:03,240
Speaker 1: on a significant scale. Uh, local police had been planting

3784
03:37:03,560 --> 03:37:05,920
Speaker 1: ship on people in order to charge them. People have

3785
03:37:06,000 --> 03:37:11,279
Speaker 1: gone to prison, which happens other places too. But like, yeah, um,

3786
03:37:11,320 --> 03:37:14,600
Speaker 1: and I'm the bulk of the work making something like

3787
03:37:14,640 --> 03:37:17,279
Speaker 1: that happen, isn't the people who are planting the fake drugs?

3788
03:37:17,280 --> 03:37:19,720
Speaker 1: The people who realize that the department will look bad

3789
03:37:19,760 --> 03:37:22,120
Speaker 1: if it gets out and then dedicate themselves to stopping

3790
03:37:22,120 --> 03:37:25,280
Speaker 1: it from getting out even beyond because you have you know,

3791
03:37:25,520 --> 03:37:27,480
Speaker 1: X number of people are willing to plant plant fake

3792
03:37:27,560 --> 03:37:29,600
Speaker 1: drugs on a guy, but a much larger number of

3793
03:37:29,600 --> 03:37:31,400
Speaker 1: people are willing to try to cover that up. So

3794
03:37:31,440 --> 03:37:33,959
Speaker 1: it's not a problem. That's That's the thing I really

3795
03:37:34,000 --> 03:37:37,039
Speaker 1: appreciate about, Alex. You're framing of this in terms of

3796
03:37:37,080 --> 03:37:40,400
Speaker 1: like their main or not one of the main motivations

3797
03:37:40,480 --> 03:37:44,080
Speaker 1: is not, you know, actually doing the job itself. It's

3798
03:37:44,080 --> 03:37:48,520
Speaker 1: about it's about making sure that their reality and by extension,

3799
03:37:48,560 --> 03:37:50,720
Speaker 1: what they want everyone else as a reality to be,

3800
03:37:51,160 --> 03:37:53,680
Speaker 1: to stay the same. Like they all of the effort

3801
03:37:53,760 --> 03:37:57,160
Speaker 1: into whether that be lying for supposedly in their view,

3802
03:37:57,280 --> 03:37:59,560
Speaker 1: like moral reasons and all, that's kind of work. It's

3803
03:37:59,600 --> 03:38:03,840
Speaker 1: it's it's it's to maintain the specific version of reality.

3804
03:38:03,879 --> 03:38:06,240
Speaker 1: It's not it's not actually for like like it's it's

3805
03:38:06,280 --> 03:38:10,280
Speaker 1: it's not for like actually promoting what is like the

3806
03:38:10,360 --> 03:38:12,920
Speaker 1: law and the books by any means. It's it's it's

3807
03:38:12,959 --> 03:38:15,480
Speaker 1: it's the it's the thing like in hot fuzz, it's

3808
03:38:15,520 --> 03:38:17,680
Speaker 1: for the greater good. That's that's what that is. That

3809
03:38:17,800 --> 03:38:20,160
Speaker 1: is what they're trying to That's what they're trying to do.

3810
03:38:20,360 --> 03:38:23,800
Speaker 1: So even if they like, as long as their reality

3811
03:38:23,879 --> 03:38:28,240
Speaker 1: is maintained, then you know, we have some semblance of

3812
03:38:28,280 --> 03:38:30,840
Speaker 1: like order in the world, whether that be you know,

3813
03:38:31,040 --> 03:38:36,840
Speaker 1: this nostalgic, semi like proto militaristic nationalist version of order.

3814
03:38:37,080 --> 03:38:39,760
Speaker 1: But that's that's that's the thing that wants to be maintained.

3815
03:38:39,840 --> 03:38:43,680
Speaker 1: So every every task, everything that they're doing isn't just

3816
03:38:43,720 --> 03:38:46,560
Speaker 1: a simple task. It's all in the overall effort of

3817
03:38:46,640 --> 03:38:51,400
Speaker 1: maintaining this like this perception um and and that's a

3818
03:38:52,520 --> 03:38:58,320
Speaker 1: a much more I think interesting way to think about police. Yeah,

3819
03:38:58,320 --> 03:39:01,240
Speaker 1: it really is. Uh, these guys in like in pill talk,

3820
03:39:01,240 --> 03:39:02,920
Speaker 1: these guys would take the blue pill and a heartbeat

3821
03:39:02,920 --> 03:39:05,320
Speaker 1: and then they don't rest Morpheus for trying to deal drugs.

3822
03:39:05,360 --> 03:39:08,080
Speaker 1: Like that's how dedicated. These guys are too staying inside

3823
03:39:08,120 --> 03:39:13,400
Speaker 1: this version of their reality. Now, um, I kind of

3824
03:39:13,520 --> 03:39:17,560
Speaker 1: let's move on next to um, the next kind of

3825
03:39:17,560 --> 03:39:20,120
Speaker 1: cult aspect, the leadership induces feelings of shame and or

3826
03:39:20,160 --> 03:39:22,600
Speaker 1: guilt in order to influence and control members. And you're

3827
03:39:22,600 --> 03:39:27,600
Speaker 1: talking you've litten down here, toxic masculinity and the warrior mindset. Yeah. Um,

3828
03:39:27,640 --> 03:39:29,760
Speaker 1: do you have any kind of like case examples of

3829
03:39:29,800 --> 03:39:32,960
Speaker 1: how that that actually looks of like kind of using

3830
03:39:32,959 --> 03:39:34,840
Speaker 1: shame or guilt to people who aren't kind of in

3831
03:39:34,920 --> 03:39:39,480
Speaker 1: the this quote quote unquote warrior mindset. H Yeah, I

3832
03:39:39,480 --> 03:39:42,360
Speaker 1: mean it happened a lot. Um, there was a lot

3833
03:39:42,360 --> 03:39:44,840
Speaker 1: of Monday night quarterbacking that would happen, especially with the

3834
03:39:44,879 --> 03:39:48,680
Speaker 1: advent of like cameras and things becoming more popular. Uh

3835
03:39:49,240 --> 03:39:51,440
Speaker 1: I love my body camera. That was my little best friend.

3836
03:39:51,560 --> 03:39:54,200
Speaker 1: But we would go you know, you go back and

3837
03:39:54,200 --> 03:39:57,400
Speaker 1: you'd watch videos of incidents and things, and if somebody

3838
03:39:57,560 --> 03:40:00,280
Speaker 1: wasn't like engaging fast enough, they would get real did

3839
03:40:00,360 --> 03:40:03,000
Speaker 1: hard like haze and you know, made fun of and

3840
03:40:03,040 --> 03:40:06,600
Speaker 1: mocked it. And when you were in this, you know,

3841
03:40:06,879 --> 03:40:09,720
Speaker 1: we're a family mindset, and you're you know, we're we

3842
03:40:09,879 --> 03:40:11,760
Speaker 1: got each other's backs and we only understand each other,

3843
03:40:11,800 --> 03:40:13,600
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you're on the outside

3844
03:40:13,640 --> 03:40:18,280
Speaker 1: because you dared to have even a remotely moderate to

3845
03:40:18,400 --> 03:40:21,800
Speaker 1: liberal position on anything, or you didn't jump in on

3846
03:40:21,840 --> 03:40:23,640
Speaker 1: the you know, the the ass beating on something to

3847
03:40:23,840 --> 03:40:28,160
Speaker 1: fast enough, they turn on you fast. Like. The only

3848
03:40:28,200 --> 03:40:31,240
Speaker 1: thing I could compare it to is like you know

3849
03:40:31,480 --> 03:40:35,080
Speaker 1: every eighties and like nineties military movie or or you

3850
03:40:35,080 --> 03:40:37,200
Speaker 1: know nerds movie where people just haze the ship out

3851
03:40:37,200 --> 03:40:40,360
Speaker 1: of each other, and it's that that dude brow everyone's

3852
03:40:40,360 --> 03:40:44,160
Speaker 1: got a our wire sun tattoo on their bicep, just

3853
03:40:45,040 --> 03:40:48,720
Speaker 1: rampant everywhere. I mean, it permeated the whole place. That

3854
03:40:48,800 --> 03:40:50,200
Speaker 1: drove me that that was one of the things that

3855
03:40:50,200 --> 03:40:51,960
Speaker 1: really drove me next, because I've never been that kind

3856
03:40:52,000 --> 03:40:57,200
Speaker 1: of guy. I've always been a a more of a

3857
03:40:57,200 --> 03:41:00,400
Speaker 1: a de escalation person and a book reader. And then

3858
03:41:00,400 --> 03:41:03,160
Speaker 1: I think it helps explain a lot why you see

3859
03:41:03,200 --> 03:41:05,000
Speaker 1: some of these videos where it's just like why did

3860
03:41:05,000 --> 03:41:06,640
Speaker 1: they go to zero to ten from zero to tend

3861
03:41:06,720 --> 03:41:08,879
Speaker 1: so fast with well, because somebody's gonna make fun of

3862
03:41:08,879 --> 03:41:12,080
Speaker 1: them and call them names if they don't go hard enough,

3863
03:41:12,080 --> 03:41:14,400
Speaker 1: fast enough on somebody when they do certain things like

3864
03:41:14,600 --> 03:41:17,320
Speaker 1: and yeah, the zero to a hundred thing also ties

3865
03:41:17,360 --> 03:41:20,080
Speaker 1: into that whole, that whole hyper vigilance thing that always

3866
03:41:20,120 --> 03:41:25,360
Speaker 1: being um a compressed spring, and then it ties back

3867
03:41:25,400 --> 03:41:28,360
Speaker 1: into that warrior mindset of like they tell you flat

3868
03:41:28,360 --> 03:41:30,680
Speaker 1: out like if anyone ever attacks you, they're trying to

3869
03:41:30,720 --> 03:41:33,320
Speaker 1: kill you. It's it's there's there's no offens or, but

3870
03:41:33,520 --> 03:41:35,000
Speaker 1: you need to act like they're trying to kill you,

3871
03:41:35,080 --> 03:41:37,080
Speaker 1: because it goes back to the whole I'm going home

3872
03:41:37,240 --> 03:41:40,000
Speaker 1: at the end of the shift kind of thing. And

3873
03:41:40,080 --> 03:41:43,480
Speaker 1: once once that's ingrained itself into like your muscle memory,

3874
03:41:43,480 --> 03:41:46,160
Speaker 1: and that becomes the reflex, that becomes the thought that

3875
03:41:46,280 --> 03:41:50,360
Speaker 1: passes in front of your mind when a critical incident happens,

3876
03:41:51,240 --> 03:41:52,920
Speaker 1: then that's how you're gonna act, and you're gonna do

3877
03:41:53,040 --> 03:41:54,720
Speaker 1: and you're gonna go from zero to a hundred because

3878
03:41:54,720 --> 03:41:57,760
Speaker 1: you're going to assume that any little furtive movement movement,

3879
03:41:57,800 --> 03:42:02,640
Speaker 1: which god, there's that language furtive movement UM, any little

3880
03:42:02,680 --> 03:42:05,039
Speaker 1: movement that someone makes, like that's that's a green light.

3881
03:42:05,080 --> 03:42:08,800
Speaker 1: That's an excuse that I can end whatever interaction I'm

3882
03:42:08,840 --> 03:42:12,600
Speaker 1: having with this person with violence because they flinched enough

3883
03:42:12,600 --> 03:42:17,800
Speaker 1: where I think, Okay, I got this, Yeah, Jesus. Now

3884
03:42:18,360 --> 03:42:20,640
Speaker 1: one of the next ones you have here is talking

3885
03:42:20,640 --> 03:42:23,160
Speaker 1: about recruitment, which obviously COLT STU, but also like it's

3886
03:42:23,160 --> 03:42:26,200
Speaker 1: a job and jobs do this constantly recruiting. I'm kind

3887
03:42:26,200 --> 03:42:30,480
Speaker 1: of wondering because you've you've listed here things like Explorer programs,

3888
03:42:30,480 --> 03:42:32,600
Speaker 1: which are like r OTC or the Boy Scouts kind

3889
03:42:32,600 --> 03:42:35,600
Speaker 1: of these different one of which Kyle Rittenhouse did like

3890
03:42:35,640 --> 03:42:38,560
Speaker 1: ways in which kind of people get onboarded. I'm wondering

3891
03:42:38,640 --> 03:42:41,400
Speaker 1: sort of what how you see how you see police

3892
03:42:41,400 --> 03:42:44,760
Speaker 1: recruitment as kind of different in a fundamentally cult your way.

3893
03:42:44,800 --> 03:42:49,960
Speaker 1: Then you know, every job has to bring in new people, right, like, yeah,

3894
03:42:49,959 --> 03:42:52,840
Speaker 1: it's it's it didn't used to be this way. But

3895
03:42:52,879 --> 03:42:55,000
Speaker 1: I think in the in the two thousands, especially when

3896
03:42:55,240 --> 03:42:58,680
Speaker 1: numbers staffing numbers really started to drop because it's I

3897
03:42:58,680 --> 03:43:00,480
Speaker 1: don't know if they've just realized it isn't worth it

3898
03:43:00,520 --> 03:43:03,120
Speaker 1: or they found somewhere better to get paid. But employment's

3899
03:43:03,120 --> 03:43:05,560
Speaker 1: gone down for law enforcement, and so recruitment goes up

3900
03:43:05,600 --> 03:43:09,959
Speaker 1: in response. But now they have a more active role

3901
03:43:09,959 --> 03:43:12,520
Speaker 1: in most places where it's almost on part of the military.

3902
03:43:12,920 --> 03:43:15,520
Speaker 1: They'll go to job fairs they go to high school

3903
03:43:15,560 --> 03:43:19,039
Speaker 1: career days. Um, they didn't used to do that stuff.

3904
03:43:19,040 --> 03:43:21,760
Speaker 1: And when they do, they'll they'll find someone to like

3905
03:43:22,280 --> 03:43:25,360
Speaker 1: pull stuff out of the pulp cultures thatitgeist what we know?

3906
03:43:25,400 --> 03:43:30,480
Speaker 1: What cool? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, what can we what can

3907
03:43:30,480 --> 03:43:33,240
Speaker 1: we cash in on to try and draw these kids in,

3908
03:43:33,280 --> 03:43:36,480
Speaker 1: because just like the military, cops are looking to pull

3909
03:43:36,520 --> 03:43:41,199
Speaker 1: in disenfranchised kids who probably aren't going to go to college,

3910
03:43:41,680 --> 03:43:45,440
Speaker 1: don't think it's an option. And here's this job. All

3911
03:43:45,480 --> 03:43:48,720
Speaker 1: you need is a high school diploma. Here's the health insurance.

3912
03:43:48,760 --> 03:43:52,120
Speaker 1: Here's the retirement package, which is trash. But you're seventeen.

3913
03:43:52,160 --> 03:43:53,560
Speaker 1: You don't know that, you don't know how to read

3914
03:43:53,600 --> 03:44:01,640
Speaker 1: all this, but it looks real. Goal Yeah yeah, um yeah,

3915
03:44:01,680 --> 03:44:03,840
Speaker 1: they explore stuff. I mean you're familiar with that. So

3916
03:44:04,080 --> 03:44:05,640
Speaker 1: but yeah, they get little kids to go out and

3917
03:44:05,720 --> 03:44:08,320
Speaker 1: you know, the little baby cops and it's I mean,

3918
03:44:08,360 --> 03:44:10,200
Speaker 1: it's it's one of those things like some of this

3919
03:44:10,280 --> 03:44:14,359
Speaker 1: is so much deeper than even the the individual departments

3920
03:44:14,400 --> 03:44:16,800
Speaker 1: or any choice made by the police. Because like, as

3921
03:44:16,800 --> 03:44:18,320
Speaker 1: a kid, some of the first toys I had were

3922
03:44:18,320 --> 03:44:21,880
Speaker 1: cop toys, right, like everything every boy, I think, like, yes,

3923
03:44:22,000 --> 03:44:23,840
Speaker 1: some of the first what you're gonna get badge a gun,

3924
03:44:23,959 --> 03:44:26,320
Speaker 1: you're gonna play detective. You're gonna be watching cops shows,

3925
03:44:26,320 --> 03:44:28,680
Speaker 1: You're gonna be watching movies where cops are the And

3926
03:44:28,760 --> 03:44:32,600
Speaker 1: that's I mean that that's a bigger subject than today.

3927
03:44:32,640 --> 03:44:35,600
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, no, that is like what the one

3928
03:44:35,600 --> 03:44:38,800
Speaker 1: of the most prevalent forms of media that's instilled in

3929
03:44:39,120 --> 03:44:42,600
Speaker 1: young uh boys, I guess yeah. You know what else

3930
03:44:42,680 --> 03:44:47,440
Speaker 1: is instilled in young boys the love of capitalism and

3931
03:44:47,520 --> 03:44:51,440
Speaker 1: products and specifically products and services. Find a child and

3932
03:44:51,560 --> 03:44:55,720
Speaker 1: whisper the names of our sponsor into their ears, preferably

3933
03:44:55,760 --> 03:44:59,039
Speaker 1: a child that's yours. Hopefully know any child, any child

3934
03:44:59,120 --> 03:45:02,000
Speaker 1: throw something so there, parents look away and then leaned

3935
03:45:02,040 --> 03:45:06,680
Speaker 1: down and whisper better. You only counts if you get caught.

3936
03:45:07,240 --> 03:45:11,000
Speaker 1: We're back, um. And your next point was the group

3937
03:45:11,080 --> 03:45:14,400
Speaker 1: is preoccupied with making money, which is a huge thing

3938
03:45:14,520 --> 03:45:18,120
Speaker 1: for cults. Um, not all of them. There are some,

3939
03:45:18,520 --> 03:45:20,560
Speaker 1: like you know, there there are some cults that were

3940
03:45:20,560 --> 03:45:25,600
Speaker 1: shall we say pure um, but they're nearly We're like

3941
03:45:25,640 --> 03:45:29,199
Speaker 1: hey man Manson, just it was all about the music

3942
03:45:29,320 --> 03:45:33,360
Speaker 1: and the Heaven's Gate was a pure cult. Yeah, yeah,

3943
03:45:33,400 --> 03:45:38,640
Speaker 1: Heaven's Gate. It certainly wasn't just the money for Heaven's

3944
03:45:40,200 --> 03:45:45,760
Speaker 1: But yes, cops. Cops have civil acids forfeiture, which they

3945
03:45:45,800 --> 03:45:48,840
Speaker 1: just took a hundred thousand dollars from someone in Dallas. Yeah,

3946
03:45:49,000 --> 03:45:51,640
Speaker 1: and the person did not get charged with anything, um,

3947
03:45:51,680 --> 03:45:56,880
Speaker 1: which is usually the case. Yeah. But but I mean yeah,

3948
03:45:56,920 --> 03:45:59,320
Speaker 1: like you have written here that like the main the

3949
03:45:59,360 --> 03:46:02,080
Speaker 1: main ways just increasing their budget as much as possible,

3950
03:46:02,200 --> 03:46:04,440
Speaker 1: which you have. Most police departments right now have the

3951
03:46:04,440 --> 03:46:08,920
Speaker 1: biggest budget they've ever had. UM. Specifically in like main

3952
03:46:09,040 --> 03:46:13,360
Speaker 1: cities we have, they're they're the most funded department, um

3953
03:46:13,440 --> 03:46:15,920
Speaker 1: in in for the whole city. There's there's this there's

3954
03:46:15,920 --> 03:46:18,080
Speaker 1: this great gag in the opening episode of a show

3955
03:46:18,120 --> 03:46:22,959
Speaker 1: called Ugly Americans that's about trying to rere financialize the

3956
03:46:22,959 --> 03:46:26,160
Speaker 1: city's budget. And they have like like a social spending

3957
03:46:26,240 --> 03:46:28,920
Speaker 1: and cop budget and they take like all of social

3958
03:46:28,920 --> 03:46:31,039
Speaker 1: spending and move it over and leave this one tiny

3959
03:46:31,080 --> 03:46:33,039
Speaker 1: sliver and they're like, oh there, that's better. That will

3960
03:46:33,040 --> 03:46:36,560
Speaker 1: solve all the problems. Um. It's it is a better

3961
03:46:36,680 --> 03:46:39,640
Speaker 1: sketch than what I explaining it just like this sounds

3962
03:46:39,680 --> 03:46:44,080
Speaker 1: not funny, but the sketch is actually pretty good. But yes,

3963
03:46:44,160 --> 03:46:46,320
Speaker 1: and and it is and it is relatively accurate in

3964
03:46:46,400 --> 03:46:48,960
Speaker 1: terms of just moving all the funding from social programs

3965
03:46:49,040 --> 03:46:53,400
Speaker 1: over into law enforcement. Yeah. So there's uh there, you know,

3966
03:46:53,440 --> 03:46:56,680
Speaker 1: there's everyone gets their financing different ways. There's county, there's stayed,

3967
03:46:56,720 --> 03:46:59,199
Speaker 1: there's their city. But a common thing that would happen

3968
03:46:59,440 --> 03:47:04,320
Speaker 1: was the uh law enforcement agencies would try to take

3969
03:47:04,360 --> 03:47:08,199
Speaker 1: anything that they could under the umbrella of law enforcement.

3970
03:47:08,240 --> 03:47:10,199
Speaker 1: So if it was like, hey, we want to have more,

3971
03:47:10,560 --> 03:47:13,400
Speaker 1: you know, security equipment at the high school, and then

3972
03:47:13,480 --> 03:47:14,879
Speaker 1: the cops will be like, no, no no, no, no, no,

3973
03:47:15,080 --> 03:47:18,520
Speaker 1: give us that money. We'll give you another another officer

3974
03:47:18,600 --> 03:47:21,440
Speaker 1: on campus. Or they want to hire something for the part,

3975
03:47:21,480 --> 03:47:23,320
Speaker 1: you know, and we want to install lights the city

3976
03:47:23,360 --> 03:47:25,000
Speaker 1: park to increase security. No no no, no, no, no, no no,

3977
03:47:25,160 --> 03:47:27,039
Speaker 1: you just give us that money. We'll make sure our

3978
03:47:27,080 --> 03:47:32,320
Speaker 1: guys patrol it more. Mm hmm. So they actively try

3979
03:47:32,400 --> 03:47:36,280
Speaker 1: to just like coach money from everybody else. Yeah, I mean,

3980
03:47:36,280 --> 03:47:37,920
Speaker 1: and you you can see this in a lot of

3981
03:47:37,920 --> 03:47:40,680
Speaker 1: towns where like the number one use of public funds

3982
03:47:40,720 --> 03:47:44,200
Speaker 1: is the police. I mean, it's it's all over the

3983
03:47:44,240 --> 03:47:48,880
Speaker 1: country at this point. Um, yeah, that makes sense. Uh.

3984
03:47:49,040 --> 03:47:52,560
Speaker 1: So members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time

3985
03:47:52,600 --> 03:47:56,400
Speaker 1: to the group and group related activities. Um, yeah, because

3986
03:47:56,400 --> 03:47:58,320
Speaker 1: you have written here four years with no days off,

3987
03:47:58,360 --> 03:48:01,000
Speaker 1: but scored a satisfactor told to put in more time

3988
03:48:01,040 --> 03:48:04,920
Speaker 1: outside of work. Yeah. So, like I said, our emails

3989
03:48:04,920 --> 03:48:07,920
Speaker 1: were always sounds so much like MLM shit it is.

3990
03:48:08,200 --> 03:48:10,640
Speaker 1: It is they they every time you're going for an evail,

3991
03:48:10,640 --> 03:48:13,720
Speaker 1: they negg you, like no matter what are Our scoring

3992
03:48:13,800 --> 03:48:17,280
Speaker 1: system was one to ten. Um, nobody ever got higher

3993
03:48:17,320 --> 03:48:20,200
Speaker 1: than a six. Maybe I think I saw like one

3994
03:48:20,280 --> 03:48:22,920
Speaker 1: or two sevens in my entire time there. And when

3995
03:48:22,920 --> 03:48:25,720
Speaker 1: I became a supervisor, I asked the brass I'm like, hey,

3996
03:48:25,720 --> 03:48:28,280
Speaker 1: I want to give this guy this this upper grade

3997
03:48:28,280 --> 03:48:30,960
Speaker 1: of like an eight or nine, and he told me flat,

3998
03:48:31,000 --> 03:48:32,760
Speaker 1: because no, we don't do that, Like, no one's allowed

3999
03:48:32,760 --> 03:48:34,200
Speaker 1: to get higher than a seven. And if you want

4000
03:48:34,200 --> 03:48:36,800
Speaker 1: a seven, you're gonna have to like write a novel

4001
03:48:36,840 --> 03:48:41,720
Speaker 1: about how great this person is to get them this rating. Um,

4002
03:48:41,800 --> 03:48:44,120
Speaker 1: it was just yeah, it was. It was consistently just

4003
03:48:44,120 --> 03:48:46,520
Speaker 1: pinning you down. The four years no dated off. So yeah,

4004
03:48:46,520 --> 03:48:49,920
Speaker 1: I did h four years straight without calling in sick once,

4005
03:48:50,000 --> 03:48:54,240
Speaker 1: like I took vacations. But um, when I went in

4006
03:48:54,280 --> 03:48:56,240
Speaker 1: from my email and he slides me a thing that says.

4007
03:48:56,280 --> 03:48:58,600
Speaker 1: It says attendance satisfactory. And I was like, what are

4008
03:48:58,640 --> 03:49:00,840
Speaker 1: you talking about? I was like, I haven't taken a

4009
03:49:00,879 --> 03:49:02,440
Speaker 1: day a sick day in four years. You know, I

4010
03:49:02,720 --> 03:49:04,800
Speaker 1: have three kids. How do you think I managed that?

4011
03:49:04,920 --> 03:49:10,000
Speaker 1: Like I've sacrificed to be here that much. And his

4012
03:49:10,120 --> 03:49:12,000
Speaker 1: response was well like, yeah, but I never see you

4013
03:49:12,040 --> 03:49:14,960
Speaker 1: at barbecues, I never see you at the union meetings.

4014
03:49:15,000 --> 03:49:17,720
Speaker 1: I never see you at the fundraisers for the sheriff's reelection,

4015
03:49:19,200 --> 03:49:22,320
Speaker 1: even though it's blatantly against policy and illegal to do.

4016
03:49:23,240 --> 03:49:24,840
Speaker 1: And I told him that in his response was, what

4017
03:49:24,840 --> 03:49:26,160
Speaker 1: are you gonna do? Tell on me? Are you're gonna

4018
03:49:26,160 --> 03:49:31,440
Speaker 1: tell Jesus? Yeah? That makes sense? Yeah, yeah, I mean

4019
03:49:31,520 --> 03:49:35,120
Speaker 1: who are you going to tell that? Who are to? Yeah?

4020
03:49:35,480 --> 03:49:39,400
Speaker 1: And it is it's also just like this. It isolates

4021
03:49:39,440 --> 03:49:41,360
Speaker 1: you from other people. It stops you from knowing folks

4022
03:49:41,400 --> 03:49:44,680
Speaker 1: that aren't cops. And it's yeah, it's a lot like

4023
03:49:44,720 --> 03:49:46,520
Speaker 1: what your up line is gonna tell you if you're

4024
03:49:46,560 --> 03:49:49,560
Speaker 1: selling mary kay that that that that ties into the

4025
03:49:49,680 --> 03:49:52,360
Speaker 1: that ties into the next point. Members are encouraged to

4026
03:49:52,560 --> 03:49:55,560
Speaker 1: or required to live and or socialize only with other

4027
03:49:55,640 --> 03:49:57,520
Speaker 1: group of members um and you say this is like

4028
03:49:57,520 --> 03:50:00,440
Speaker 1: part of the hyper vigilance isolate isolation cycle. But I

4029
03:50:00,480 --> 03:50:03,200
Speaker 1: also see this in terms of like something I uh

4030
03:50:03,840 --> 03:50:06,800
Speaker 1: get into for fun, is I join like a wife

4031
03:50:06,880 --> 03:50:12,120
Speaker 1: of cops um Facebook groups just because it's fast just

4032
03:50:12,200 --> 03:50:14,520
Speaker 1: to have all of just to have all of these

4033
03:50:14,560 --> 03:50:17,840
Speaker 1: like cops spouses in a Facebook group, and it's super Yeah,

4034
03:50:17,840 --> 03:50:20,520
Speaker 1: Like it's it's a really interesting like culture of like

4035
03:50:20,840 --> 03:50:23,000
Speaker 1: just associating with other people on the job. You know,

4036
03:50:23,080 --> 03:50:25,920
Speaker 1: there's like cop barbecues like you mentioned and all this

4037
03:50:26,000 --> 03:50:28,480
Speaker 1: kind of stuff where it's like we're the only ones

4038
03:50:28,520 --> 03:50:31,200
Speaker 1: that can understand you. So we're gonna build like this

4039
03:50:31,320 --> 03:50:34,200
Speaker 1: like you know, force field around all of us and

4040
03:50:34,240 --> 03:50:37,120
Speaker 1: we can be together as a family and keep out

4041
03:50:37,120 --> 03:50:43,240
Speaker 1: everyone else because we're the ones that really know what's up. Um. Yeah,

4042
03:50:43,240 --> 03:50:47,040
Speaker 1: it seems uh, I mean for some people who are

4043
03:50:47,080 --> 03:50:50,120
Speaker 1: really into it, I guess that is you know, that's

4044
03:50:50,160 --> 03:50:53,200
Speaker 1: how humans socialize in some ways. So like, you know,

4045
03:50:53,200 --> 03:50:55,680
Speaker 1: for people who think being cops are good and quote

4046
03:50:55,720 --> 03:50:58,440
Speaker 1: unquote enjoy it, I'm sure they have a decent time

4047
03:50:58,480 --> 03:51:01,880
Speaker 1: hanging out with their cop buddies, right, Um, And I'm

4048
03:51:01,920 --> 03:51:06,000
Speaker 1: sure the cops spouse facebook groups I'm sure they have

4049
03:51:06,040 --> 03:51:09,880
Speaker 1: a good time laughing about whatever viral video there is

4050
03:51:09,920 --> 03:51:12,520
Speaker 1: of someone using too much force, you know who, who

4051
03:51:12,520 --> 03:51:15,320
Speaker 1: knows what? Like how how they actually think about those

4052
03:51:15,320 --> 03:51:18,760
Speaker 1: types of very isolated environments, because you know, it's it's

4053
03:51:18,760 --> 03:51:21,040
Speaker 1: about fend find you know, it's it's almost like it's

4054
03:51:21,080 --> 03:51:24,280
Speaker 1: it's extending out into like fandom rules where you're associating

4055
03:51:24,280 --> 03:51:27,200
Speaker 1: with other people the same way fandoms work, which is

4056
03:51:27,360 --> 03:51:33,880
Speaker 1: very just very similar to to how cults work. Um so, yeah, yeah,

4057
03:51:33,920 --> 03:51:38,000
Speaker 1: it's an armed, militant fandom. And your last point here,

4058
03:51:39,000 --> 03:51:41,280
Speaker 1: the most loyal members, the true believers, feel there can

4059
03:51:41,320 --> 03:51:43,600
Speaker 1: be no life outside the context of the group. They

4060
03:51:43,600 --> 03:51:45,520
Speaker 1: believe there is no other way to be, and often

4061
03:51:45,520 --> 03:51:47,920
Speaker 1: fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave or

4062
03:51:47,960 --> 03:51:53,160
Speaker 1: even consider leaving the group. Yeah, so I put in

4063
03:51:53,240 --> 03:51:57,960
Speaker 1: the note of just self expantiory. But yeah, it's me

4064
03:51:59,720 --> 03:52:05,480
Speaker 1: quit was weird. I knew I needed to do it,

4065
03:52:05,560 --> 03:52:08,800
Speaker 1: but I I had a massive existential crisis of identity

4066
03:52:09,120 --> 03:52:13,440
Speaker 1: and of of logistical things, but a lot of it

4067
03:52:13,520 --> 03:52:15,240
Speaker 1: was it was tied to my identity, and it was

4068
03:52:15,400 --> 03:52:19,400
Speaker 1: it was letting go of something that was like a

4069
03:52:19,400 --> 03:52:25,800
Speaker 1: core pillar of my personality and it really freaked me out.

4070
03:52:25,800 --> 03:52:30,200
Speaker 1: And I think that if I was more inside the group,

4071
03:52:30,240 --> 03:52:31,480
Speaker 1: and I was more like one of the guys, a

4072
03:52:31,560 --> 03:52:33,960
Speaker 1: golden boy or something like, I probably would have never left.

4073
03:52:34,720 --> 03:52:37,200
Speaker 1: If I was, if I was getting that constant reinforcement

4074
03:52:37,360 --> 03:52:40,000
Speaker 1: of the good boy feelings, I don't think I would

4075
03:52:40,000 --> 03:52:46,000
Speaker 1: have quit. Um. But after I did quit, that actually

4076
03:52:46,680 --> 03:52:49,440
Speaker 1: kicked off a cascade of people around my same age

4077
03:52:49,440 --> 03:52:52,600
Speaker 1: and within my same seniority level in looking at their

4078
03:52:52,680 --> 03:52:54,720
Speaker 1: job and looking at what it was doing to them

4079
03:52:54,760 --> 03:52:59,160
Speaker 1: psychologically and physically and with their families, and thinking to themselves,

4080
03:52:59,360 --> 03:53:02,000
Speaker 1: I can and leave that. That is how cult, How

4081
03:53:02,000 --> 03:53:05,120
Speaker 1: that is how leaving cults work. Yeah. Yeah. And so

4082
03:53:05,280 --> 03:53:07,400
Speaker 1: once I left, a bunch of other guys were like, oh,

4083
03:53:07,240 --> 03:53:09,560
Speaker 1: I don't have to do this until I'm fifty five.

4084
03:53:10,840 --> 03:53:13,040
Speaker 1: I can I can go start another career somewhere else.

4085
03:53:13,080 --> 03:53:15,680
Speaker 1: I can go start another retirement plan at a different place.

4086
03:53:17,480 --> 03:53:21,360
Speaker 1: And I just it felt great to see other people

4087
03:53:21,520 --> 03:53:24,280
Speaker 1: tear away and do that. But at the same time,

4088
03:53:24,360 --> 03:53:27,520
Speaker 1: I know for some of that it hurt mhm really

4089
03:53:27,560 --> 03:53:30,320
Speaker 1: bad to leave that behind. Because once you're once you

4090
03:53:30,400 --> 03:53:35,040
Speaker 1: are out, UM, you are kind of out. Even if

4091
03:53:35,040 --> 03:53:36,880
Speaker 1: you leave amicably like hey, I just want to go

4092
03:53:36,960 --> 03:53:40,280
Speaker 1: do something else with my life, you're no longer in

4093
03:53:40,320 --> 03:53:42,680
Speaker 1: those people's minds anymore because you're not part of the team,

4094
03:53:42,720 --> 03:53:44,880
Speaker 1: you're not in the club, you're not in the family anymore.

4095
03:53:45,480 --> 03:53:50,720
Speaker 1: You're that guy that used to be here. And I

4096
03:53:50,760 --> 03:53:54,000
Speaker 1: guess kind of at the conclusion of this and this

4097
03:53:54,040 --> 03:53:55,560
Speaker 1: is you know, when you when the question is like,

4098
03:53:55,560 --> 03:53:58,120
Speaker 1: how do you de radicalize get people out of colts?

4099
03:53:58,120 --> 03:54:00,720
Speaker 1: How do you like, no one has good answer to that,

4100
03:54:00,800 --> 03:54:02,800
Speaker 1: So I don't think we should expect you to suddenly

4101
03:54:02,840 --> 03:54:06,400
Speaker 1: have like here's how to here's how to convince everybody

4102
03:54:06,560 --> 03:54:08,760
Speaker 1: to stop doing this, because we can't do that for

4103
03:54:08,840 --> 03:54:12,560
Speaker 1: fucking Q and on, like de radicalization of the people

4104
03:54:12,600 --> 03:54:14,800
Speaker 1: who say they're involved in it are fucking drifting, like

4105
03:54:14,880 --> 03:54:17,040
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a big mess of a of a

4106
03:54:17,120 --> 03:54:19,920
Speaker 1: fucking field in the first place. But I am wondering,

4107
03:54:19,960 --> 03:54:22,520
Speaker 1: do you have some insights into like, yeah, how then

4108
03:54:22,600 --> 03:54:26,800
Speaker 1: do we de radicalize these people? Uh? Like I don't

4109
03:54:26,840 --> 03:54:29,200
Speaker 1: think there is Like I don't think there is a

4110
03:54:29,240 --> 03:54:32,440
Speaker 1: cookie cutter answer for like pulling people out. Um, you know,

4111
03:54:32,480 --> 03:54:34,600
Speaker 1: we can't bag them in a white vand and take

4112
03:54:34,680 --> 03:54:38,440
Speaker 1: them to a hotel. Uh. The only thing I can

4113
03:54:38,480 --> 03:54:41,360
Speaker 1: think of that would actually change the culture is a

4114
03:54:41,480 --> 03:54:46,880
Speaker 1: huge shift in our national culture around like mental health

4115
03:54:47,000 --> 03:54:51,720
Speaker 1: and toxic masculinity and you know, wrapping your identity into

4116
03:54:51,800 --> 03:54:54,080
Speaker 1: into your job because it's not just cops that do this'

4117
03:54:54,480 --> 03:54:57,920
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's like that is that is America now?

4118
03:54:58,720 --> 03:55:00,840
Speaker 1: Is that is like hustle culture and that is what

4119
03:55:00,880 --> 03:55:05,440
Speaker 1: the idea of a career is my name and I

4120
03:55:05,480 --> 03:55:08,920
Speaker 1: am a blank Like that career career comes from the

4121
03:55:09,520 --> 03:55:12,400
Speaker 1: word that means like careening, Like you are going full

4122
03:55:12,480 --> 03:55:15,560
Speaker 1: force into this thing that is that is what you

4123
03:55:15,600 --> 03:55:18,880
Speaker 1: are doing now. That is your existence, is your career.

4124
03:55:19,200 --> 03:55:22,640
Speaker 1: You're going at it um that is that is what

4125
03:55:22,680 --> 03:55:27,120
Speaker 1: this whole country is built on. Uh. So getting out

4126
03:55:27,120 --> 03:55:29,280
Speaker 1: of that for a lot of people, for just regular jobs,

4127
03:55:29,320 --> 03:55:32,920
Speaker 1: it's difficult. Now adding on the idea that you are

4128
03:55:33,400 --> 03:55:37,320
Speaker 1: the thing that holds society together, that is that that

4129
03:55:37,400 --> 03:55:40,320
Speaker 1: has a whole other level of complexity, like psychologically for

4130
03:55:40,360 --> 03:55:44,600
Speaker 1: the person inside it um. Because I'm sure like telemarketers,

4131
03:55:44,720 --> 03:55:46,800
Speaker 1: if you can get really into it and make money,

4132
03:55:46,960 --> 03:55:49,000
Speaker 1: sure that can be a career. But you know, you're

4133
03:55:49,000 --> 03:55:52,320
Speaker 1: not holding society together and like that's not that's not

4134
03:55:52,640 --> 03:55:55,880
Speaker 1: that's not a delusion that you have and nobody outside

4135
03:55:55,920 --> 03:56:03,320
Speaker 1: shares has There's there's no there, there is there's no

4136
03:56:03,400 --> 03:56:07,600
Speaker 1: thin telemarketing line of supporting you. So it is it

4137
03:56:07,760 --> 03:56:10,720
Speaker 1: is different for like police specifically, even more so than

4138
03:56:10,760 --> 03:56:13,480
Speaker 1: like firefighters or like E. M. T. S. UM. This

4139
03:56:13,960 --> 03:56:17,560
Speaker 1: particular fandom that's developed around police and and and like

4140
03:56:17,640 --> 03:56:22,200
Speaker 1: the the incredible self importance that they is that is

4141
03:56:22,240 --> 03:56:26,280
Speaker 1: cultivated um to. Yeah, like the idea of I'm doing

4142
03:56:26,320 --> 03:56:31,200
Speaker 1: this to maintain reality is like a very like big

4143
03:56:31,240 --> 03:56:33,520
Speaker 1: thing to tell yourself and get getting out of that

4144
03:56:33,560 --> 03:56:38,960
Speaker 1: seems uh challenging. Yeah, it really is. It's like it's

4145
03:56:38,960 --> 03:56:41,360
Speaker 1: almost it's almost worse than most like churches in a

4146
03:56:41,400 --> 03:56:45,600
Speaker 1: sense because in this version it's so it's so materialized.

4147
03:56:45,680 --> 03:56:48,080
Speaker 1: It's it's it is, Yeah, it's it's it's right in

4148
03:56:48,160 --> 03:56:49,320
Speaker 1: front of you. I can reach out and touch it

4149
03:56:49,320 --> 03:56:51,520
Speaker 1: because I'm part of society. But if I'm not here

4150
03:56:51,600 --> 03:56:54,920
Speaker 1: and we're not here, you know, anarchy the bad guy

4151
03:56:55,040 --> 03:56:57,200
Speaker 1: that the way people think the word means, you know,

4152
03:56:57,240 --> 03:57:00,320
Speaker 1: everything's gonna catch fire, and the only reason people are

4153
03:57:00,320 --> 03:57:02,040
Speaker 1: good to each other is because the law makes them

4154
03:57:02,040 --> 03:57:03,960
Speaker 1: be that way and all that kind of toxic bs.

4155
03:57:05,280 --> 03:57:07,480
Speaker 1: So the only thing I can think of to be

4156
03:57:07,520 --> 03:57:11,000
Speaker 1: like to help de radicalize people is it's almost like

4157
03:57:11,280 --> 03:57:13,920
Speaker 1: treating someone in your family that listens to too much

4158
03:57:13,960 --> 03:57:17,000
Speaker 1: Q and on is to you know, if you know

4159
03:57:17,080 --> 03:57:18,920
Speaker 1: a cop or you have a friend that used to

4160
03:57:18,920 --> 03:57:21,080
Speaker 1: be a cop, and he ever like reaches out to you,

4161
03:57:22,400 --> 03:57:25,800
Speaker 1: maybe with like kid gloves, kind of be like, hey,

4162
03:57:26,240 --> 03:57:30,920
Speaker 1: how you doing just small things because that could maybe

4163
03:57:31,120 --> 03:57:33,880
Speaker 1: lead to him putting them putting something on their shelf.

4164
03:57:34,000 --> 03:57:35,760
Speaker 1: Just like when people get out of religions and things,

4165
03:57:36,400 --> 03:57:39,040
Speaker 1: they'll often reach out to people and be like, hey,

4166
03:57:39,840 --> 03:57:44,760
Speaker 1: this is such a fucking it kind of means something

4167
03:57:44,800 --> 03:57:46,840
Speaker 1: if he's going outside of the group. And so yeah,

4168
03:57:46,960 --> 03:57:50,960
Speaker 1: maybe recognize that, like you have an opportunity. Yeah, if

4169
03:57:51,040 --> 03:57:52,440
Speaker 1: if a cop reaches out to you, it's just like

4170
03:57:52,480 --> 03:57:54,680
Speaker 1: someone in a religious institution. They're reaching out to you

4171
03:57:54,720 --> 03:57:58,360
Speaker 1: because they feel safe talking to you because you're not

4172
03:57:58,360 --> 03:58:00,440
Speaker 1: going to turn them in your It's not gonna have

4173
03:58:00,440 --> 03:58:07,560
Speaker 1: any uh immediate impact on their life right now. Yeah

4174
03:58:07,600 --> 03:58:12,200
Speaker 1: that makes sense. Um, All right, well, Alexander, anything else

4175
03:58:12,200 --> 03:58:15,840
Speaker 1: you wanted to get into I mean I could talk

4176
03:58:15,880 --> 03:58:17,840
Speaker 1: about this kind of stuff for days and days and

4177
03:58:17,880 --> 03:58:20,920
Speaker 1: hours and hours, the whole hyper vigilance cycle, and like

4178
03:58:20,960 --> 03:58:22,640
Speaker 1: I said, I've read a bunch of books on it.

4179
03:58:22,680 --> 03:58:26,200
Speaker 1: I really tried to get training on just the hyper

4180
03:58:26,240 --> 03:58:28,680
Speaker 1: vigilance cycle. Like well, if you ask most cops about

4181
03:58:28,720 --> 03:58:30,400
Speaker 1: hyper vigilance, they would just look at you and be like,

4182
03:58:30,440 --> 03:58:32,160
Speaker 1: I don't even know what that means what you're talking about,

4183
03:58:32,880 --> 03:58:34,440
Speaker 1: which is why I used to I used to give

4184
03:58:34,480 --> 03:58:37,880
Speaker 1: this book, the Emotional Survival Bout for law enforcement. I

4185
03:58:37,880 --> 03:58:40,760
Speaker 1: would I gave it to new hires, and some of

4186
03:58:40,760 --> 03:58:44,120
Speaker 1: those new hires didn't come back, and I'm fine with that.

4187
03:58:44,440 --> 03:58:49,040
Speaker 1: Yeah that's good. Yeah. Some of them looked at it

4188
03:58:49,080 --> 03:58:51,040
Speaker 1: and we're like, no, I'm not signing up for this

4189
03:58:51,160 --> 03:58:53,440
Speaker 1: because you you really don't know what you're signing up

4190
03:58:53,440 --> 03:58:55,520
Speaker 1: for the real stuff that you're signing up for until

4191
03:58:55,520 --> 03:59:02,160
Speaker 1: you're in it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean also like a

4192
03:59:02,240 --> 03:59:09,880
Speaker 1: cult um Yeah yeah, well all right, uh, Alexander, thank

4193
03:59:09,880 --> 03:59:11,880
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on and for sharing this

4194
03:59:11,960 --> 03:59:13,760
Speaker 1: with us. I think it's a useful look behind the

4195
03:59:13,800 --> 03:59:19,440
Speaker 1: curtain um that that folks need um and this has

4196
03:59:19,480 --> 03:59:24,120
Speaker 1: been it could happen here you can find Garrison on

4197
03:59:24,160 --> 03:59:27,720
Speaker 1: the internet. Go go, go track down Garrison's fake Facebook account.

4198
03:59:27,760 --> 03:59:30,440
Speaker 1: You know what goes do that you can't? You can?

4199
03:59:30,800 --> 03:59:33,480
Speaker 1: I I have, I have made up possible specifically for

4200
03:59:33,520 --> 03:59:39,160
Speaker 1: this reason, a cop wife group with Harrison joined me

4201
03:59:39,760 --> 03:59:44,880
Speaker 1: and Vanessa so we could discuss our husband's careers. Hey,

4202
03:59:44,920 --> 03:59:47,760
Speaker 1: for all you know, you may cause the de radicalization

4203
03:59:47,800 --> 03:59:51,400
Speaker 1: of the cop Yeah. That, or Garrison just gets really

4204
03:59:51,480 --> 03:59:54,240
Speaker 1: weirdly into role playing as the wife of like a

4205
03:59:54,320 --> 04:00:01,240
Speaker 1: career episode is over. We are done. This is I

4206
04:00:01,280 --> 04:00:21,720
Speaker 1: am pulling the plug. Harrison starts the episode. I don't

4207
04:00:21,720 --> 04:00:23,960
Speaker 1: trust Robbert to me, you want me to start, I

4208
04:00:23,960 --> 04:00:26,600
Speaker 1: don't trust Robbert. Today. It's time, Garrison, it's time for

4209
04:00:26,640 --> 04:00:30,240
Speaker 1: you to learn. Wow, my advice is a tonal shrieking.

4210
04:00:30,400 --> 04:00:32,720
Speaker 1: I am not doing that. Everyone's gonna be like, oh,

4211
04:00:32,920 --> 04:00:38,560
Speaker 1: Garrison's just copying Robert's tone and cadence. You mean you

4212
04:00:38,560 --> 04:00:41,000
Speaker 1: mean they're making sounds with my mouth. Yeah, that's that's

4213
04:00:41,000 --> 04:00:46,440
Speaker 1: how that's how, that's how communication works. Start the episode

4214
04:00:46,440 --> 04:00:50,200
Speaker 1: with that and trigger everybody like me. You use a microphone,

4215
04:00:50,320 --> 04:00:57,520
Speaker 1: it's very real. Yeah, you Steve, we're a recording. Let's

4216
04:00:57,600 --> 04:01:02,160
Speaker 1: let's do this Hey, time for stories we love We

4217
04:01:02,200 --> 04:01:05,640
Speaker 1: love stories here Attika Happen here pod the podcast about

4218
04:01:05,680 --> 04:01:08,040
Speaker 1: how things are kind of falling apart and too maybe

4219
04:01:08,120 --> 04:01:11,000
Speaker 1: some ways to put them back together. Um, I'm Garrison.

4220
04:01:11,080 --> 04:01:15,360
Speaker 1: I'm starting this episode today. I'm not sure why hungover

4221
04:01:16,040 --> 04:01:18,840
Speaker 1: Robert is real hungry because I didn't trust Robert to

4222
04:01:18,880 --> 04:01:22,320
Speaker 1: do his job today. But I trust you, Garrison. You

4223
04:01:22,320 --> 04:01:24,120
Speaker 1: didn't really not trust me to do my job. I

4224
04:01:24,160 --> 04:01:27,800
Speaker 1: know that's that's fun. Um. We also we also have

4225
04:01:27,880 --> 04:01:38,720
Speaker 1: Christopher here, hey, and and we have uh writer Rebecca Campbell. Hello, hey,

4226
04:01:40,320 --> 04:01:44,240
Speaker 1: and uh, what why don't you briefly explain who who

4227
04:01:44,320 --> 04:01:48,800
Speaker 1: you are and what what's what's going on today? Okay,

4228
04:01:48,880 --> 04:01:52,000
Speaker 1: while I'm a Canadian writer and sometimes I'm a teacher,

4229
04:01:52,080 --> 04:01:54,720
Speaker 1: but mostly I just write really sad stories about climate

4230
04:01:54,800 --> 04:02:01,360
Speaker 1: change and coasts and aies and near future stuff like that. Um.

4231
04:02:01,400 --> 04:02:04,200
Speaker 1: This story I'm reading is called thank You from Your Patients.

4232
04:02:04,240 --> 04:02:06,800
Speaker 1: It came out and reckoning for I guess last year.

4233
04:02:07,160 --> 04:02:10,320
Speaker 1: And uh, it's based on my partner's time when he

4234
04:02:10,360 --> 04:02:12,920
Speaker 1: was working in a call center and the kind of

4235
04:02:13,040 --> 04:02:15,240
Speaker 1: nightmares stories that I heard from them every time he

4236
04:02:15,280 --> 04:02:18,360
Speaker 1: came home from work. But It's also about me being

4237
04:02:18,400 --> 04:02:20,080
Speaker 1: on the other side of the country from the part

4238
04:02:20,160 --> 04:02:21,600
Speaker 1: of the world that I love the most, which is

4239
04:02:21,640 --> 04:02:26,240
Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest. Um. And you know, watching Fukushima a

4240
04:02:26,240 --> 04:02:29,160
Speaker 1: few years ago, and watching wildfires a few weeks ago,

4241
04:02:30,000 --> 04:02:33,960
Speaker 1: and um, being separated from the things that are important

4242
04:02:33,960 --> 04:02:38,160
Speaker 1: to you, um as they're all falling apart. Well, I'm

4243
04:02:38,200 --> 04:02:41,160
Speaker 1: just excited that this podcast is now two fifths Canadian,

4244
04:02:41,400 --> 04:02:45,360
Speaker 1: So that's that's the main thing I'm excited about. Uh no,

4245
04:02:46,000 --> 04:02:48,880
Speaker 1: oh my god, I just Tim Horton's cup just appeared

4246
04:02:48,920 --> 04:02:53,160
Speaker 1: next to me. It's terrible donut I have. I do

4247
04:02:53,240 --> 04:02:57,200
Speaker 1: have a Tim Hortons kept in my kitchen. Um do. Anyway,

4248
04:02:57,760 --> 04:03:01,280
Speaker 1: let's uh, let's let's let's start at this. Start this, uh,

4249
04:03:01,520 --> 04:03:05,040
Speaker 1: start this reading. Let's eat this popsicle stand as they

4250
04:03:05,080 --> 04:03:11,920
Speaker 1: say a thing, Let's continue, Let's let's eat this. Okay,

4251
04:03:12,600 --> 04:03:17,840
Speaker 1: thank you for your patients. I'm lucky because they replaced

4252
04:03:17,880 --> 04:03:19,680
Speaker 1: a bunch of chairs last month and I got a

4253
04:03:19,720 --> 04:03:22,360
Speaker 1: new one. A good chair is important when you spend

4254
04:03:22,360 --> 04:03:24,480
Speaker 1: ten hours a day in a cubicle talking to strangers

4255
04:03:24,520 --> 04:03:28,160
Speaker 1: about their problems. I've been here three years and worked

4256
04:03:28,160 --> 04:03:30,960
Speaker 1: on most of Western Morgan's Services, which means I can,

4257
04:03:31,320 --> 04:03:33,800
Speaker 1: with no thought, help Grandma set up her WiFi, or

4258
04:03:33,800 --> 04:03:37,040
Speaker 1: troubleshoot banking software, or set up your cell phone plan,

4259
04:03:37,240 --> 04:03:39,160
Speaker 1: or help you with some app designed to find your

4260
04:03:39,200 --> 04:03:43,080
Speaker 1: soulmate that nevertheless fills you with hopelessness. I can't help

4261
04:03:43,080 --> 04:03:48,120
Speaker 1: you with the hopelessness. It's nonstandard. But I'm Western Morgan's floater,

4262
04:03:48,280 --> 04:03:50,720
Speaker 1: and Jordi or Kirsty just dropped me where the calls

4263
04:03:50,720 --> 04:03:53,440
Speaker 1: are heavy or turnover as high. On Twitter, I can

4264
04:03:53,480 --> 04:03:56,640
Speaker 1: answer questions within five seconds of some asshole in Toronto

4265
04:03:56,720 --> 04:03:59,680
Speaker 1: saying what the fuck my TV doesn't see the house network,

4266
04:04:00,040 --> 04:04:03,320
Speaker 1: and I respond, I'm sorry to hear that Toronto asshole.

4267
04:04:03,400 --> 04:04:06,360
Speaker 1: Let's see if I can help. I'm impossible to rile

4268
04:04:06,440 --> 04:04:10,200
Speaker 1: because I've heard everything, every possible stupid question, every strange

4269
04:04:10,240 --> 04:04:15,000
Speaker 1: request regarding lapsed policies and mispayments, every paranoid rand, every

4270
04:04:15,040 --> 04:04:18,040
Speaker 1: sort of impotent rage. The management is shitty and the

4271
04:04:18,080 --> 04:04:23,200
Speaker 1: customers are irritable. But there's beauty and problem solving. The

4272
04:04:23,280 --> 04:04:25,760
Speaker 1: really bad stuff started at the end of last month,

4273
04:04:25,800 --> 04:04:27,720
Speaker 1: when I had to do on one on one majority

4274
04:04:27,840 --> 04:04:30,440
Speaker 1: team lead for the floor. I've been fielding a bunch

4275
04:04:30,440 --> 04:04:33,240
Speaker 1: of questions regarding a recent patch that had broken everything.

4276
04:04:33,360 --> 04:04:36,000
Speaker 1: I had this rhythm, hitting my thirty second age t

4277
04:04:36,520 --> 04:04:40,160
Speaker 1: and typing without thinking, Mark here, how can I help you?

4278
04:04:41,120 --> 04:04:43,880
Speaker 1: But one on one is mandated interruptions. So I listened

4279
04:04:43,880 --> 04:04:48,400
Speaker 1: to Geordy brainstorm about improving morale. They stopped having barbecues

4280
04:04:48,440 --> 04:04:50,760
Speaker 1: because it was too expensive, even when the burgers were

4281
04:04:50,800 --> 04:04:53,960
Speaker 1: sawdust and soy. Also, no one wanted to be outside

4282
04:04:54,000 --> 04:04:56,640
Speaker 1: because Detroit was still burning, and the PPM up to

4283
04:04:56,720 --> 04:05:02,800
Speaker 1: something like Beijing. Listen to this Western Morrigan idol. Jordi

4284
04:05:02,880 --> 04:05:05,960
Speaker 1: told me we judge three of the top right calls,

4285
04:05:06,040 --> 04:05:07,920
Speaker 1: and we have a thing, and someone walks away with

4286
04:05:07,960 --> 04:05:12,080
Speaker 1: a Timmy's gift card like fifty bucks. Jordy said that

4287
04:05:12,120 --> 04:05:15,480
Speaker 1: like it was a good thing. What about a key fob?

4288
04:05:15,560 --> 04:05:18,120
Speaker 1: I asked, we can't get out with what without one?

4289
04:05:18,160 --> 04:05:21,440
Speaker 1: After hours? But only management could hold or the winner

4290
04:05:21,440 --> 04:05:24,160
Speaker 1: gets to wear Jane's or keep their phone for a shift.

4291
04:05:24,840 --> 04:05:27,400
Speaker 1: That didn't rate an answer. The most frustrating thing about

4292
04:05:27,440 --> 04:05:30,000
Speaker 1: Western Morrigan is that team leads have to hold your

4293
04:05:30,040 --> 04:05:34,200
Speaker 1: phone like you're an untrusted teenager who's been grounded. I

4294
04:05:34,240 --> 04:05:36,840
Speaker 1: feel like I'm lost in a cave or a space station.

4295
04:05:37,640 --> 04:05:39,680
Speaker 1: When I do a lot of overtime, I arrived when

4296
04:05:39,680 --> 04:05:41,560
Speaker 1: it's dark, and I leave when it's dark. And while

4297
04:05:41,680 --> 04:05:44,520
Speaker 1: sometimes I go around the corner for coffee or McNuggets,

4298
04:05:45,120 --> 04:05:48,160
Speaker 1: it always feels like I'm just visiting the world. I

4299
04:05:48,200 --> 04:05:50,680
Speaker 1: don't know what's happened, if a government's fall on or

4300
04:05:50,720 --> 04:05:53,960
Speaker 1: if an ice shelf has collapsed, if Detroit is burning again,

4301
04:05:54,080 --> 04:05:56,840
Speaker 1: or maybe California or the Great Lakes are dying at

4302
04:05:56,840 --> 04:05:59,440
Speaker 1: a slightly faster rate than they were before I left

4303
04:05:59,440 --> 04:06:04,160
Speaker 1: for work, never knowing what's going on outside. I sit

4304
04:06:04,200 --> 04:06:08,240
Speaker 1: in my good chair and say that sounds frustrating to everyone,

4305
04:06:08,520 --> 04:06:11,560
Speaker 1: no matter who's talking or what they want. Let me

4306
04:06:11,600 --> 04:06:15,760
Speaker 1: see if I understand your problem, you could judge, Jordy,

4307
04:06:15,840 --> 04:06:19,920
Speaker 1: Stead said, still talking about Morrel. You're impartial. You hate everyone.

4308
04:06:20,680 --> 04:06:23,680
Speaker 1: I don't hate everyone, Geordy, I said, reflexively, though, to

4309
04:06:23,720 --> 04:06:27,200
Speaker 1: be fair, I hate a lot of people here. After

4310
04:06:27,280 --> 04:06:30,040
Speaker 1: my mandated fifteen minutes with Jority, I saw that Misty

4311
04:06:30,120 --> 04:06:32,400
Speaker 1: had a problem with my documentation, which has been rough

4312
04:06:32,440 --> 04:06:35,320
Speaker 1: since they changed policy on me. She's in the Philippines,

4313
04:06:35,360 --> 04:06:37,840
Speaker 1: where most of the real work happens. Upper management is

4314
04:06:37,840 --> 04:06:40,440
Speaker 1: all in India. They only have us because they need

4315
04:06:40,560 --> 04:06:43,640
Speaker 1: Canadian accents on the phones and they get tax breaks

4316
04:06:43,640 --> 04:06:46,320
Speaker 1: bringing jobs to one of the more desolate parts of

4317
04:06:46,320 --> 04:06:49,720
Speaker 1: the country down when from Detroit Rampant West Nile and

4318
04:06:49,800 --> 04:06:52,960
Speaker 1: ninety percent of the province's heavy metals processed at the

4319
04:06:53,040 --> 04:06:56,400
Speaker 1: plant out by the ball. Seventy percent of the baby's

4320
04:06:56,400 --> 04:06:58,880
Speaker 1: born here or girls. Something to do with residual b P.

4321
04:06:59,040 --> 04:07:03,120
Speaker 1: A misty is on the other side of the Pacific

4322
04:07:03,240 --> 04:07:06,360
Speaker 1: in Lagazpi. But you think she was right here considering

4323
04:07:06,360 --> 04:07:10,680
Speaker 1: how aggressively she organizes us. Your ship at filling out

4324
04:07:10,720 --> 04:07:12,960
Speaker 1: forms mark the right up is going to kill your rank.

4325
04:07:13,840 --> 04:07:16,720
Speaker 1: We're stack ranked. Every shift it gets you points you

4326
04:07:16,760 --> 04:07:19,760
Speaker 1: can redeem. You can redeem, which honestly is worth it

4327
04:07:19,840 --> 04:07:23,200
Speaker 1: for the grocery store gift cards. Just tell me what

4328
04:07:23,240 --> 04:07:27,880
Speaker 1: I did wrong. Lagazpi, we were in the middle of

4329
04:07:27,880 --> 04:07:30,600
Speaker 1: a rough month. The flu hit everywhere at once, and

4330
04:07:30,640 --> 04:07:32,320
Speaker 1: no one could afford to lose the work, So we

4331
04:07:32,360 --> 04:07:35,000
Speaker 1: had a bunch of people come in sick coughs and

4332
04:07:35,120 --> 04:07:37,640
Speaker 1: juicy sneezes all over the floor, and half the time

4333
04:07:37,880 --> 04:07:40,320
Speaker 1: you got on the elevator and everyone was gray faced

4334
04:07:40,320 --> 04:07:44,280
Speaker 1: and weaving. I came in over the weekend to cover

4335
04:07:44,400 --> 04:07:46,760
Speaker 1: mobile because they lost half their staff, so i'd been

4336
04:07:46,760 --> 04:07:49,200
Speaker 1: on for eight days by Monday, when Jordy was manic

4337
04:07:49,240 --> 04:07:51,440
Speaker 1: trying to call people in so he wouldn't have to

4338
04:07:51,480 --> 04:07:54,440
Speaker 1: go on the phones. He always says when we're smoking outside,

4339
04:07:54,440 --> 04:07:56,600
Speaker 1: and he's pointedly not looking at the place where the

4340
04:07:56,640 --> 04:07:59,520
Speaker 1: jam building used to be. It's not the extra fifty

4341
04:07:59,520 --> 04:08:01,720
Speaker 1: cents and hour. It's the fact I don't have to

4342
04:08:01,760 --> 04:08:07,160
Speaker 1: deal with people. He hated taking calls. He offered me overtime,

4343
04:08:07,200 --> 04:08:09,440
Speaker 1: so I started coming in at six and leaving at ten,

4344
04:08:09,640 --> 04:08:12,480
Speaker 1: and I didn't even notice the weekend. I do remember

4345
04:08:12,560 --> 04:08:15,800
Speaker 1: going home those nights and thinking how hollow my room

4346
04:08:15,880 --> 04:08:18,200
Speaker 1: felt with my roommates playing Call of Duty in the

4347
04:08:18,240 --> 04:08:21,520
Speaker 1: living room, and how my body seemed to vibrate caffeine

4348
04:08:21,560 --> 04:08:25,760
Speaker 1: maybe your pseudophedan. I heard phantom time warnings and chimes,

4349
04:08:25,800 --> 04:08:27,720
Speaker 1: and when I closed my eyes I could see the

4350
04:08:27,760 --> 04:08:31,640
Speaker 1: screen and call after call flooding the queue. By Saturday,

4351
04:08:31,680 --> 04:08:34,360
Speaker 1: Western Morgan was a haunted house, but I still wasn't sick.

4352
04:08:36,000 --> 04:08:38,720
Speaker 1: That sounds frustrating. Let me see if I can help.

4353
04:08:41,920 --> 04:08:44,600
Speaker 1: I was dealing with this woman on Vancouver Islands who

4354
04:08:44,640 --> 04:08:47,520
Speaker 1: couldn't generate invoices. We've been at it for two hours

4355
04:08:47,560 --> 04:08:49,640
Speaker 1: and I could feel her getting upset when I told

4356
04:08:49,640 --> 04:08:51,640
Speaker 1: her to wipe the whole system and start again. I

4357
04:08:51,640 --> 04:08:53,640
Speaker 1: could help her with that, but she was like, no,

4358
04:08:53,720 --> 04:08:55,760
Speaker 1: we'll lose two weeks of work. There's nothing I can

4359
04:08:55,760 --> 04:08:59,640
Speaker 1: say to that, so we keep troubleshooting, even though it's pointless. Okay,

4360
04:08:59,680 --> 04:09:01,600
Speaker 1: I said it. You can go back to your root

4361
04:09:01,640 --> 04:09:06,080
Speaker 1: invoice and try. Oh, she said what, And that was it.

4362
04:09:07,040 --> 04:09:09,120
Speaker 1: I didn't hear anything but the line itself, which just

4363
04:09:09,160 --> 04:09:11,600
Speaker 1: went dead, that kind of absence you get when someone

4364
04:09:11,640 --> 04:09:16,320
Speaker 1: hangs up on you. Are you there, ma'am? I called back,

4365
04:09:16,360 --> 04:09:18,840
Speaker 1: but I got a reorder tone, not voice mail or

4366
04:09:18,880 --> 04:09:21,600
Speaker 1: an old fashioned busy signal, but the one that means

4367
04:09:21,640 --> 04:09:26,440
Speaker 1: the whole system is busier, blocked or down. I dropped

4368
04:09:26,440 --> 04:09:28,960
Speaker 1: out of the queue then, which you're not supposed to do, obviously,

4369
04:09:29,000 --> 04:09:31,240
Speaker 1: and went looking for Jordy, who was chatting with Kirsty

4370
04:09:31,240 --> 04:09:34,400
Speaker 1: about Western Morgan idol. I asked if they knew anything,

4371
04:09:34,440 --> 04:09:36,000
Speaker 1: but of course they didn't, And when I asked if

4372
04:09:36,000 --> 04:09:37,520
Speaker 1: I could at least grab my phone to see what

4373
04:09:37,560 --> 04:09:40,200
Speaker 1: was happening. Kirsty did a kind of elementary school teacher

4374
04:09:40,320 --> 04:09:46,560
Speaker 1: sigh documentation for three eight zero your overdue mark call

4375
04:09:46,640 --> 04:09:51,440
Speaker 1: you dropped. I saw that explanation happening across the board.

4376
04:09:51,480 --> 04:09:55,480
Speaker 1: Looks like the problems at their end. I didn't find

4377
04:09:55,520 --> 04:09:58,280
Speaker 1: out until Moe came back from Break Street. Wet in

4378
04:09:58,320 --> 04:10:00,400
Speaker 1: the way you are if you run out into that

4379
04:10:00,520 --> 04:10:02,720
Speaker 1: rain blowing in from Detroit because you don't want it

4380
04:10:02,760 --> 04:10:05,440
Speaker 1: to touch your skin, saying earthquake on the West coast?

4381
04:10:05,600 --> 04:10:08,880
Speaker 1: You know anyone out there? I thought about the woman

4382
04:10:08,920 --> 04:10:11,080
Speaker 1: trying to get the invoice together for a tiny order

4383
04:10:11,080 --> 04:10:14,840
Speaker 1: of sea salts from some equally tiny place on Vancouver Island.

4384
04:10:15,000 --> 04:10:19,200
Speaker 1: Her business so miniscule it's still fit into our cheapest subscription.

4385
04:10:20,560 --> 04:10:23,560
Speaker 1: In my unsubmitted documentation for Misty, I had written that

4386
04:10:23,600 --> 04:10:26,720
Speaker 1: her voice sounded like a hopeful but slightly overwhelmed great

4387
04:10:26,760 --> 04:10:31,080
Speaker 1: aunt trying to make the remote control work. No one,

4388
04:10:31,120 --> 04:10:34,120
Speaker 1: how bad like nine point six, the worst since forever,

4389
04:10:34,240 --> 04:10:38,440
Speaker 1: like for hundreds of years, Jesus, I said, Jesus, Jesus,

4390
04:10:39,520 --> 04:10:42,840
Speaker 1: I've had similar moments on calls when they're shooting. Happened

4391
04:10:42,840 --> 04:10:45,480
Speaker 1: in Montreal, not view Ma real, but the one where

4392
04:10:45,480 --> 04:10:48,360
Speaker 1: the kids ran downtown from McGill and the photographer caught

4393
04:10:48,360 --> 04:10:50,520
Speaker 1: the girl as the bullet tour at her right kneecap.

4394
04:10:51,720 --> 04:10:53,600
Speaker 1: I was on the line with this dick wad and

4395
04:10:53,640 --> 04:10:57,320
Speaker 1: a coworking place on Maisonneuve, who was talking, who was

4396
04:10:57,320 --> 04:11:00,280
Speaker 1: asking to talk to my supervisor. Then midwhile and he

4397
04:11:00,360 --> 04:11:03,640
Speaker 1: stopped talking like he suddenly didn't care about my attitude.

4398
04:11:03,800 --> 04:11:06,840
Speaker 1: I could hear his phone pinging, sir, are you there?

4399
04:11:08,040 --> 04:11:09,720
Speaker 1: Can you hear that it's happening on the street. I

4400
04:11:09,720 --> 04:11:13,440
Speaker 1: can see a faint popping voice raised and doors slammed.

4401
04:11:13,520 --> 04:11:17,000
Speaker 1: Then he cut the call. I kept in the queue,

4402
04:11:17,480 --> 04:11:20,760
Speaker 1: helped someone update. I did a subscription renewal. The next person, though,

4403
04:11:21,160 --> 04:11:23,520
Speaker 1: needed a backup and that took forever. So we chatted

4404
04:11:23,560 --> 04:11:27,080
Speaker 1: about hockey until she said, did you hear about Montreal? No, ma'am,

4405
04:11:27,280 --> 04:11:30,120
Speaker 1: I said, thinking about the sound I maybe heard before

4406
04:11:30,160 --> 04:11:34,760
Speaker 1: his phone cut. Firecrackers, backfires. Some guy shot up the

4407
04:11:34,760 --> 04:11:37,560
Speaker 1: whole downtown. I think it was terrorists, who knows FLQ

4408
04:11:37,800 --> 04:11:40,320
Speaker 1: or Muslims, maybe Red Power fifty dead, but it was

4409
04:11:40,360 --> 04:11:44,520
Speaker 1: going up every single time ever fresh the page. She

4410
04:11:44,600 --> 04:11:46,880
Speaker 1: kept going on like this while we did a backup,

4411
04:11:47,040 --> 04:11:49,240
Speaker 1: and then I made sure everything worked. And it had

4412
04:11:49,280 --> 04:11:51,240
Speaker 1: been like three hours at that point, and I kept

4413
04:11:51,240 --> 04:11:53,440
Speaker 1: thinking of the guy and his silence and what was

4414
04:11:53,480 --> 04:11:55,360
Speaker 1: going on in the streets while we talked about his

4415
04:11:55,400 --> 04:11:58,640
Speaker 1: log in and how unprofessional I was. I don't have

4416
04:11:58,680 --> 04:12:00,880
Speaker 1: any friends in Montreal. I there wants to drink when

4417
04:12:00,920 --> 04:12:03,320
Speaker 1: I was eighteen. But that's it. I just had that

4418
04:12:03,400 --> 04:12:06,360
Speaker 1: guy and the thump of footsteps fleeing the coworking space.

4419
04:12:07,720 --> 04:12:09,920
Speaker 1: When I took my break, the rain was falling again,

4420
04:12:10,040 --> 04:12:12,640
Speaker 1: the faintly gray kind that runs down the sidewalks and

4421
04:12:12,680 --> 04:12:15,040
Speaker 1: the gutters, and when it builds up enough you can

4422
04:12:15,040 --> 04:12:18,320
Speaker 1: see it's a little milky because it's full of ash.

4423
04:12:18,480 --> 04:12:20,760
Speaker 1: If you think too hard about what's running into your

4424
04:12:20,760 --> 04:12:24,320
Speaker 1: eyes as you stand outside smoking until your pack is empty,

4425
04:12:24,600 --> 04:12:26,880
Speaker 1: you go eat a twenty four box of tim Bits

4426
04:12:27,000 --> 04:12:29,360
Speaker 1: or six Big Max, or you stop for one beer

4427
04:12:29,360 --> 04:12:31,360
Speaker 1: on the way home and only leave when they push

4428
04:12:31,360 --> 04:12:34,760
Speaker 1: you out the door. Jordy was outside. I gave him

4429
04:12:34,800 --> 04:12:37,240
Speaker 1: a cigarette, even though he doesn't smoke either, and he said,

4430
04:12:37,640 --> 04:12:39,680
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to be getting cleaner. Wasn't it supposed

4431
04:12:39,680 --> 04:12:42,640
Speaker 1: to get cleaner? He grew up in Detroit, though he

4432
04:12:42,720 --> 04:12:46,400
Speaker 1: was already over here when it burned last year. Maybe

4433
04:12:46,400 --> 04:12:49,040
Speaker 1: it's safer. The ham is worse. I thought the ham

4434
04:12:49,120 --> 04:12:50,520
Speaker 1: was supposed to go away. When they send in the

4435
04:12:50,560 --> 04:12:55,280
Speaker 1: cleanup cruise. We watched the warm, ash colored water run

4436
04:12:55,320 --> 04:12:58,240
Speaker 1: down the gutters until it was ankle deep. This city

4437
04:12:58,480 --> 04:13:01,280
Speaker 1: is a wetland, and there isn't far for water to go,

4438
04:13:01,400 --> 04:13:04,080
Speaker 1: so it ends up in people's basements. All that ashy,

4439
04:13:04,160 --> 04:13:08,520
Speaker 1: bony water running through foundations and drains, A constant trickle

4440
04:13:08,600 --> 04:13:11,280
Speaker 1: in the background, sort of like the faint pop you

4441
04:13:11,400 --> 04:13:13,200
Speaker 1: might hear while you're on the phone with a guy

4442
04:13:13,240 --> 04:13:17,680
Speaker 1: from Montreal wants to talk to your manager. Does it

4443
04:13:17,840 --> 04:13:23,720
Speaker 1: feel Jordy said, and lit another cigarette. What Jordy? I

4444
04:13:23,760 --> 04:13:28,240
Speaker 1: hate how often he doesn't finish his sentences. Does it

4445
04:13:28,240 --> 04:13:30,400
Speaker 1: feel like it's happening more now? The sort of thing.

4446
04:13:32,480 --> 04:13:34,840
Speaker 1: I dropped my smoke into the rain water and I shrugged.

4447
04:13:34,840 --> 04:13:36,560
Speaker 1: Then I said I wish I knew what to tell you,

4448
04:13:36,800 --> 04:13:38,800
Speaker 1: which wasn't a real answer, and I used my tech

4449
04:13:38,840 --> 04:13:42,080
Speaker 1: support voice when I said it, because I didn't want

4450
04:13:42,120 --> 04:13:46,360
Speaker 1: to have that conversation. On my first break after the earthquake,

4451
04:13:46,400 --> 04:13:48,920
Speaker 1: I smoked and watched the rain and videos on my phone.

4452
04:13:48,960 --> 04:13:51,840
Speaker 1: Someone live streaming the moment it hit bored talk about

4453
04:13:51,880 --> 04:13:54,520
Speaker 1: food or weather, than a strange look on their face,

4454
04:13:54,760 --> 04:13:59,160
Speaker 1: their eyes dart upward. Then the phone falls overhead footage

4455
04:13:59,160 --> 04:14:04,360
Speaker 1: from helicopters of downtown Vancouver, all those green towers swaying

4456
04:14:04,400 --> 04:14:07,600
Speaker 1: and falling, and the bridge swinging until the cable snap

4457
04:14:07,640 --> 04:14:11,600
Speaker 1: like rubber bands, the worst in recorded history, worse probably

4458
04:14:11,640 --> 04:14:14,840
Speaker 1: than the last mega thrust in seventeen hundred. I just

4459
04:14:14,920 --> 04:14:17,280
Speaker 1: kept thinking of that woman and the sort of quiet

4460
04:14:17,280 --> 04:14:21,400
Speaker 1: shock in her voice, her Oh is that? And then nothing,

4461
04:14:22,600 --> 04:14:24,560
Speaker 1: And I was standing out in the rain, still warm,

4462
04:14:24,720 --> 04:14:26,440
Speaker 1: when it occurred to me that I might have heard

4463
04:14:26,440 --> 04:14:29,240
Speaker 1: her last words. I kept thinking about the texture of

4464
04:14:29,280 --> 04:14:32,120
Speaker 1: the silence after the call dropped, and what had happened

4465
04:14:32,160 --> 04:14:34,360
Speaker 1: the moment after that, if that had been the worst

4466
04:14:34,400 --> 04:14:37,440
Speaker 1: of it, the shock of the whole world rumbling, or

4467
04:14:37,480 --> 04:14:39,400
Speaker 1: if it had been worse for her after that or

4468
04:14:39,520 --> 04:14:44,600
Speaker 1: right now or tomorrow. I only had ten minutes because

4469
04:14:44,600 --> 04:14:47,320
Speaker 1: call volume was increasing, My throat started to tickle. In

4470
04:14:47,360 --> 04:14:50,280
Speaker 1: the world just suddenly out of nowhere started to look glassy.

4471
04:14:50,640 --> 04:14:52,680
Speaker 1: The light thick from the ceiling squares, and my skin

4472
04:14:52,760 --> 04:14:55,080
Speaker 1: prickled when I ran my hands over my arms, which

4473
04:14:55,080 --> 04:14:58,280
Speaker 1: were covered with goose bumps. The floor was nearly empty

4474
04:14:58,320 --> 04:15:01,240
Speaker 1: except for Gjority running around super rising and not taking calls,

4475
04:15:01,240 --> 04:15:03,680
Speaker 1: and the cue was packed. My first call was round

4476
04:15:03,680 --> 04:15:06,800
Speaker 1: way north along the coast, Prince Rupert, a woman calling

4477
04:15:06,800 --> 04:15:09,480
Speaker 1: about a password reset. I want Mark, she said, he

4478
04:15:09,480 --> 04:15:12,800
Speaker 1: helped me before. Can I talk to Mark? While I

4479
04:15:12,880 --> 04:15:15,960
Speaker 1: was documenting, I thought, fuck it, I'm gonna tell Misty

4480
04:15:16,080 --> 04:15:18,080
Speaker 1: what the old woman told me while we were waiting

4481
04:15:18,080 --> 04:15:20,760
Speaker 1: for the password reset email about how when you're that

4482
04:15:20,800 --> 04:15:23,200
Speaker 1: far north you don't notice time passing, and you feel

4483
04:15:23,200 --> 04:15:26,360
Speaker 1: good in an unimaginable way in summer, luminous and hopeful,

4484
04:15:26,800 --> 04:15:29,000
Speaker 1: and how in winter all you want to do is

4485
04:15:29,080 --> 04:15:31,400
Speaker 1: die and drink yourself into a coma, so you know,

4486
04:15:31,440 --> 04:15:38,360
Speaker 1: it balances out. After that, I reopened three zero. An

4487
04:15:38,400 --> 04:15:41,680
Speaker 1: elderly woman I wrote on a phone trying to print

4488
04:15:41,720 --> 04:15:44,840
Speaker 1: invoices for locally produced sea salt, looks over at the

4489
04:15:44,920 --> 04:15:47,480
Speaker 1: rack of glass jars in which she keeps her stock

4490
04:15:47,600 --> 04:15:51,000
Speaker 1: because she hears a rattle, then another. Then she says, oh,

4491
04:15:51,200 --> 04:15:54,280
Speaker 1: is that and nothing else, because at that moment, the

4492
04:15:54,280 --> 04:15:58,880
Speaker 1: force of rashimas lit the Cascadius abduction zone on which

4493
04:15:58,960 --> 04:16:01,280
Speaker 1: Vancouver Island rest. It's like a cork in a bottle.

4494
04:16:02,000 --> 04:16:07,080
Speaker 1: Centuries of continental tension released. I type that, then I

4495
04:16:07,160 --> 04:16:09,840
Speaker 1: hit send. Then I added a secondary note on her file.

4496
04:16:10,120 --> 04:16:15,040
Speaker 1: At PST A nine point eight hit the Cascadia subduction zone,

4497
04:16:16,760 --> 04:16:19,000
Speaker 1: and Misty was right there on chad Hive, not telling

4498
04:16:19,040 --> 04:16:21,880
Speaker 1: me it was inappropriate. She wrote, rest their souls. And

4499
04:16:21,920 --> 04:16:24,720
Speaker 1: I was comforted by those temporary words, which surprised me.

4500
04:16:26,320 --> 04:16:30,040
Speaker 1: My grandparents were in MINDA now in the nine earthquake,

4501
04:16:30,560 --> 04:16:36,080
Speaker 1: you got anyone there? No? I heard the hum from Detroit.

4502
04:16:36,320 --> 04:16:39,280
Speaker 1: It was somehow a relief to know that. Across the world,

4503
04:16:39,480 --> 04:16:43,520
Speaker 1: Misty was in a similar room among people evaluating documentation

4504
04:16:43,600 --> 04:16:46,320
Speaker 1: for apps and I s p s and accounting software,

4505
04:16:46,560 --> 04:16:49,320
Speaker 1: people saying that must be frustrating. Let's see if I

4506
04:16:49,320 --> 04:16:53,040
Speaker 1: can help. Something occurred to me. Do you hear anything

4507
04:16:53,080 --> 04:16:56,680
Speaker 1: about tsunamis no word so far? Do you have your

4508
04:16:56,720 --> 04:16:59,800
Speaker 1: phone so you can get the alerts they let us

4509
04:16:59,800 --> 04:17:01,960
Speaker 1: know we're so bad. I'm taking calls so I won't

4510
04:17:02,000 --> 04:17:05,880
Speaker 1: be fixing your dog until tomorrow. I wondered if Kirsty

4511
04:17:05,880 --> 04:17:07,880
Speaker 1: would let us know or if she would dither about it,

4512
04:17:07,960 --> 04:17:10,000
Speaker 1: until all we could do was climbed to the top

4513
04:17:10,000 --> 04:17:12,240
Speaker 1: floor of the building and watch a way consume what

4514
04:17:12,320 --> 04:17:15,560
Speaker 1: was left of Detroit before it swamped us to five

4515
04:17:15,600 --> 04:17:17,600
Speaker 1: more calls, and I refilled my water bottle, the one

4516
04:17:17,600 --> 04:17:20,200
Speaker 1: with the slogan on it, fueling small Business with the

4517
04:17:20,240 --> 04:17:23,960
Speaker 1: tools to succeed that some now lost Western Morgan contract

4518
04:17:23,960 --> 04:17:26,400
Speaker 1: brought in. And I was looking at my skin reflected

4519
04:17:26,440 --> 04:17:28,000
Speaker 1: in the sink, which was the color of those pale,

4520
04:17:28,080 --> 04:17:30,920
Speaker 1: lumpy smokers you see outside the entrance, the color of

4521
04:17:30,920 --> 04:17:34,560
Speaker 1: a raw filet o fish. I felt adrenalized, like a

4522
04:17:34,640 --> 04:17:37,720
Speaker 1: moment before it'd been terrified, but I could not remember

4523
04:17:37,760 --> 04:17:40,480
Speaker 1: how or why. I wondered what it was doing to

4524
04:17:40,560 --> 04:17:44,000
Speaker 1: me inside all those cells now remade into virus factories,

4525
04:17:44,240 --> 04:17:46,680
Speaker 1: turning to goog and mah and sloughing off while the

4526
04:17:46,760 --> 04:17:49,840
Speaker 1: virus proliferated through my system, and I left traces of

4527
04:17:49,840 --> 04:17:53,040
Speaker 1: it on everything I touched. The water ran over the

4528
04:17:53,040 --> 04:17:56,000
Speaker 1: top of the bottle clear. So far, the ash hasn't

4529
04:17:56,000 --> 04:17:58,680
Speaker 1: worked its way in through the city's water system, or

4530
04:17:58,720 --> 04:18:01,360
Speaker 1: maybe it has, and it is invisible like the micro

4531
04:18:01,440 --> 04:18:06,720
Speaker 1: plastics in the lake so you're gonna judge it was Jordy,

4532
04:18:07,320 --> 04:18:09,120
Speaker 1: We're gonna do it next week. I was thinking, that's

4533
04:18:09,120 --> 04:18:11,200
Speaker 1: at a time limit, like five minutes, you and me

4534
04:18:11,200 --> 04:18:12,960
Speaker 1: and Kirsty judge it. I'll grab a fifty for the

4535
04:18:13,040 --> 04:18:17,360
Speaker 1: Jimmy's card too, man, I said. Georgie just stared at me.

4536
04:18:17,480 --> 04:18:19,320
Speaker 1: You're getting sick. You know what you need to do.

4537
04:18:19,920 --> 04:18:22,440
Speaker 1: He went on about ekenesia and flu effects, and I

4538
04:18:22,440 --> 04:18:24,960
Speaker 1: thought about the tsunami that was or was not traveling

4539
04:18:25,000 --> 04:18:28,280
Speaker 1: across the Pacific, or just hammer your system with antioxidants

4540
04:18:28,320 --> 04:18:31,640
Speaker 1: to take a double dose of night quell. Without thinking,

4541
04:18:31,720 --> 04:18:34,280
Speaker 1: I pulled my phone out of my pocket. You know

4542
04:18:34,360 --> 04:18:37,240
Speaker 1: you can't have that anywhere on the floor. I was

4543
04:18:37,280 --> 04:18:40,280
Speaker 1: already googling Pacific Tsunami Alert and it was rolling rainbows

4544
04:18:40,320 --> 04:18:42,360
Speaker 1: and I stared at it so hard that it seemed

4545
04:18:42,360 --> 04:18:44,520
Speaker 1: to take over the whole world. And then I shivered.

4546
04:18:44,560 --> 04:18:47,440
Speaker 1: But Jordy was still talking, don't make me write you up.

4547
04:18:47,440 --> 04:18:49,960
Speaker 1: I don't want to deal with it, okay, I said.

4548
04:18:50,800 --> 04:18:53,080
Speaker 1: It's about privacy for our users. They need to know

4549
04:18:53,120 --> 04:18:56,840
Speaker 1: that they can trust our integrity, our word, and our system.

4550
04:18:56,920 --> 04:18:58,880
Speaker 1: The poster on the far side of the break room,

4551
04:18:58,920 --> 04:19:02,440
Speaker 1: said integrity ward and system. I saw that the alert

4552
04:19:02,520 --> 04:19:04,960
Speaker 1: had been issued for Japan. That's when he took my phone.

4553
04:19:05,400 --> 04:19:07,240
Speaker 1: You fucked the dog. I have to write you up.

4554
04:19:07,280 --> 04:19:10,240
Speaker 1: I don't want to write you up Japan. In six hours,

4555
04:19:10,360 --> 04:19:13,960
Speaker 1: eight pm, i'd still be on. Then, while very far away,

4556
04:19:14,120 --> 04:19:16,520
Speaker 1: a wave crested on the sea coast, filling the river

4557
04:19:16,560 --> 04:19:25,720
Speaker 1: basins and the car parks. I know you don't have

4558
04:19:25,760 --> 04:19:28,120
Speaker 1: to surrender your phone, even if they can require you

4559
04:19:28,160 --> 04:19:30,280
Speaker 1: to leave it at home. I know they're not supposed

4560
04:19:30,280 --> 04:19:32,400
Speaker 1: to lock you in either, or let you smoke within

4561
04:19:32,480 --> 04:19:34,920
Speaker 1: three ms of the door, even when the ashes falling.

4562
04:19:35,560 --> 04:19:37,600
Speaker 1: They're not supposed to pay you in points. You can

4563
04:19:37,640 --> 04:19:40,360
Speaker 1: then exchange for grocery store gift cards, which you need

4564
04:19:40,400 --> 04:19:43,520
Speaker 1: because the new minimum wage wasn't even covering rent. But

4565
04:19:43,600 --> 04:19:47,440
Speaker 1: I needed a job. The next call I got was

4566
04:19:47,480 --> 04:19:49,960
Speaker 1: farther south, closer to the epicenter. The first thing I

4567
04:19:49,960 --> 04:19:52,280
Speaker 1: did was asked about the earthquake. Oh, we felt it,

4568
04:19:52,360 --> 04:19:54,720
Speaker 1: and there's a tsunami warning. But we're far enough inland

4569
04:19:54,760 --> 04:19:57,440
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be tsunami warning. So when I go try

4570
04:19:57,480 --> 04:20:01,160
Speaker 1: to log in tsunami, I keep getting the same error.

4571
04:20:01,320 --> 04:20:03,680
Speaker 1: It says, my accounts frozen. What does that mean? I

4572
04:20:03,760 --> 04:20:05,920
Speaker 1: need to do some invoices, And yeah, I just got

4573
04:20:05,920 --> 04:20:07,800
Speaker 1: the text like half an hour ago. Landfall is like

4574
04:20:07,840 --> 04:20:11,480
Speaker 1: an hour. The account was frozen due to misspayments. So

4575
04:20:11,520 --> 04:20:14,000
Speaker 1: I pointed that out and the guy insisted no. He

4576
04:20:14,200 --> 04:20:16,200
Speaker 1: set up an automated transfer, and he kept me on

4577
04:20:16,240 --> 04:20:18,400
Speaker 1: the line while he chatted with the banks tech support

4578
04:20:18,480 --> 04:20:21,080
Speaker 1: on another line to sort out the direct deposit, and

4579
04:20:21,120 --> 04:20:24,040
Speaker 1: then I reactivated his account. All this time, the tsunami

4580
04:20:24,080 --> 04:20:27,200
Speaker 1: traveling towards the coast or the shallower bottom would raise

4581
04:20:27,240 --> 04:20:29,800
Speaker 1: the waves height by narrowing its length. Because the last

4582
04:20:29,800 --> 04:20:31,880
Speaker 1: time I'd been outside, I'd looked at a gift on

4583
04:20:31,920 --> 04:20:35,560
Speaker 1: Wikipedia that demonstrated how tsunami's crest as they traveled through

4584
04:20:35,560 --> 04:20:39,360
Speaker 1: shallow waters. The last thing he said wasn't thanks, it

4585
04:20:39,520 --> 04:20:41,840
Speaker 1: was there. It is. The tide's going way out. I

4586
04:20:41,880 --> 04:20:44,720
Speaker 1: hope everyone's out of downtown. Then he was gone, and

4587
04:20:44,760 --> 04:20:47,120
Speaker 1: I can imagine it, the water running away from the

4588
04:20:47,160 --> 04:20:50,280
Speaker 1: shore like a huge exhalation, and then collecting into a

4589
04:20:50,400 --> 04:20:54,400
Speaker 1: rising wave that would destroy them all the tsunami warning

4590
04:20:54,520 --> 04:20:57,320
Speaker 1: I wrote in chat hive, hoping Misty was there. Kirsty

4591
04:20:57,440 --> 04:21:00,640
Speaker 1: responded instantly, that is not appropriate chat hive for important

4592
04:21:00,640 --> 04:21:03,880
Speaker 1: work stuff. We haven't heard anything, but we were swamps,

4593
04:21:03,880 --> 04:21:06,480
Speaker 1: so who knows what's going on outside. Chat Hi channel

4594
04:21:06,520 --> 04:21:09,840
Speaker 1: will only be used for appropriate business related business. Maybe

4595
04:21:09,880 --> 04:21:12,680
Speaker 1: you should get out chat hi channel will only be

4596
04:21:12,760 --> 04:21:18,280
Speaker 1: used for appropriate business related business. I've been there for

4597
04:21:18,320 --> 04:21:20,880
Speaker 1: sixteen hours, and I couldn't remember the last time I

4598
04:21:20,920 --> 04:21:23,360
Speaker 1: slept a full night at home when I hadn't been

4599
04:21:23,400 --> 04:21:25,840
Speaker 1: buzzed on cold pills and exhaustion and the sound of

4600
04:21:25,880 --> 04:21:29,640
Speaker 1: call of duty from the living room. That week when

4601
04:21:29,640 --> 04:21:32,880
Speaker 1: I did sleep, I kept saying, this is Mark from Magnicore,

4602
04:21:33,160 --> 04:21:35,600
Speaker 1: or this is Mark from wherever I am right now,

4603
04:21:35,760 --> 04:21:38,080
Speaker 1: and heard explosions and the way voices carry over for

4604
04:21:38,120 --> 04:21:40,640
Speaker 1: the river from Detroit, the screams and the crowds and

4605
04:21:40,640 --> 04:21:43,960
Speaker 1: the gunshots. Or maybe I was never actually asleep. Maybe

4606
04:21:44,000 --> 04:21:46,600
Speaker 1: I was just off my head. I shouldn't have washed

4607
04:21:46,600 --> 04:21:48,440
Speaker 1: the pills down with beer. But there's that thing that

4608
04:21:48,520 --> 04:21:50,600
Speaker 1: happens when you stop in for a beer after work,

4609
04:21:50,640 --> 04:21:52,840
Speaker 1: and the inertia of the whole thing, the job, the

4610
04:21:52,840 --> 04:21:54,720
Speaker 1: shitty beer, and the fact that a person brings you

4611
04:21:54,760 --> 04:21:57,240
Speaker 1: food even if you can't afford it it sticks you

4612
04:21:57,280 --> 04:21:59,920
Speaker 1: to your seat. It was bad last summer when we

4613
04:22:00,000 --> 04:22:01,760
Speaker 1: couldn't afford to run the A C. But the bar

4614
04:22:01,800 --> 04:22:03,560
Speaker 1: on the way home could and it was full of

4615
04:22:03,600 --> 04:22:07,000
Speaker 1: familiar guys, broke and lonely and trying to avoid looking

4616
04:22:07,000 --> 04:22:09,400
Speaker 1: at what was left of the Detroit skyline, or the

4617
04:22:09,440 --> 04:22:12,160
Speaker 1: gray green clouds boiling to the north, and the hail

4618
04:22:12,480 --> 04:22:16,280
Speaker 1: and the lightning storms every afternoon like clockwork. The summers

4619
04:22:16,280 --> 04:22:19,160
Speaker 1: are definitely hotter, and the mosquitoes are definitely worse. And

4620
04:22:19,240 --> 04:22:21,760
Speaker 1: the last summer I noticed that the birds don't sing anymore,

4621
04:22:22,040 --> 04:22:27,640
Speaker 1: all their whistles and like video game lasers. I stepped

4622
04:22:27,640 --> 04:22:30,560
Speaker 1: outside for another cigarette and realized the door had been locked.

4623
04:22:30,600 --> 04:22:32,240
Speaker 1: And I don't have a fall because I don't rate

4624
04:22:32,280 --> 04:22:35,560
Speaker 1: a fob. Jordy was there too, setting up his stupid

4625
04:22:35,600 --> 04:22:38,080
Speaker 1: Western Morgan idol piles a bright pink and green and

4626
04:22:38,120 --> 04:22:40,960
Speaker 1: blue post it not it's all over his desk. I

4627
04:22:41,000 --> 04:22:43,320
Speaker 1: need to go out. The doors are locked for the night.

4628
04:22:43,560 --> 04:22:46,480
Speaker 1: I need to go out. We lost another girl from online.

4629
04:22:46,480 --> 04:22:48,120
Speaker 1: You'll have to take over social media if we lose

4630
04:22:48,120 --> 04:22:51,680
Speaker 1: anyone else. Take your break here. I just kind of

4631
04:22:51,760 --> 04:22:53,840
Speaker 1: stared at him, and my skin prickled, like all the

4632
04:22:53,840 --> 04:22:55,760
Speaker 1: suit of a phedron I had taken had rushed to

4633
04:22:55,800 --> 04:22:58,640
Speaker 1: the surface and was blasting every single nerve ending in

4634
04:22:58,640 --> 04:23:03,000
Speaker 1: my body. I need to go outside. You can't, like

4635
04:23:03,240 --> 04:23:07,480
Speaker 1: you physically can't. I kind of stood there, and I'm

4636
04:23:07,520 --> 04:23:10,160
Speaker 1: ashamed to say I wanted to cry, like a little

4637
04:23:10,200 --> 04:23:12,320
Speaker 1: kid who isn't allowed to use the bathroom, who just

4638
04:23:12,360 --> 04:23:14,600
Speaker 1: wants to sit with his dad but keeps getting dragged

4639
04:23:14,640 --> 04:23:18,440
Speaker 1: away by unfamiliar relatives. The kind of crying you see

4640
04:23:18,480 --> 04:23:20,640
Speaker 1: on the bus at rush hour when some little kid

4641
04:23:20,680 --> 04:23:22,800
Speaker 1: coming back from the mall loses it and lies in

4642
04:23:22,840 --> 04:23:25,480
Speaker 1: the aisle wailing, cramming road salt in his mouth, and

4643
04:23:25,520 --> 04:23:29,480
Speaker 1: you just think you and me both. I didn't actually cry.

4644
04:23:29,560 --> 04:23:32,560
Speaker 1: I hate myself because I just said begging, can I

4645
04:23:32,600 --> 04:23:36,200
Speaker 1: please have my phone back? Please? Jordy looked at me

4646
04:23:36,240 --> 04:23:37,720
Speaker 1: like I was an idiot him in the middle of

4647
04:23:37,720 --> 04:23:40,360
Speaker 1: all the post it notes that read congratulations and You're

4648
04:23:40,400 --> 04:23:44,280
Speaker 1: a winner and Western Morgan idol. I didn't say anything.

4649
04:23:44,320 --> 04:23:47,240
Speaker 1: I left at first. I just sat in the lunch room,

4650
04:23:47,280 --> 04:23:50,720
Speaker 1: shivering and nauseated, staring at the plastic solo cup left

4651
04:23:50,800 --> 04:23:53,600
Speaker 1: over from the barbecues they used to give before the ash.

4652
04:23:53,880 --> 04:23:56,120
Speaker 1: There will be worst moments in my life, no doubt,

4653
04:23:56,160 --> 04:23:59,000
Speaker 1: more pain, more sadness, But I can't imagine anything so

4654
04:23:59,120 --> 04:24:04,200
Speaker 1: wide rangeing in its desolation as that moment. The only

4655
04:24:04,280 --> 04:24:06,400
Speaker 1: thing I could focus on was telling miss Ty to

4656
04:24:06,440 --> 04:24:08,960
Speaker 1: get her phone back and watch the horizon and be

4657
04:24:09,040 --> 04:24:13,920
Speaker 1: ready to escape. A girl from online staggered through, sweating

4658
04:24:13,920 --> 04:24:15,720
Speaker 1: and pale, and I knew that Jordy would be there

4659
04:24:15,760 --> 04:24:18,560
Speaker 1: in a minute to ask for another eight hours overnight

4660
04:24:18,600 --> 04:24:21,840
Speaker 1: answering stranger's questions so perfectly that they treat me like

4661
04:24:21,840 --> 04:24:26,840
Speaker 1: a shitty customer service AI built to serve. There aren't

4662
04:24:26,840 --> 04:24:28,520
Speaker 1: a lot of choices in life, are there. You can

4663
04:24:28,560 --> 04:24:30,720
Speaker 1: choose to have kids or not, to leave your hometown

4664
04:24:30,800 --> 04:24:32,960
Speaker 1: or not, or to stay in a terrible job you

4665
04:24:33,000 --> 04:24:36,200
Speaker 1: are for some reason, very good at. But other than that,

4666
04:24:36,400 --> 04:24:39,600
Speaker 1: what is there? Just a lot of compliance and non compliance.

4667
04:24:40,560 --> 04:24:43,400
Speaker 1: This moment didn't feel like a choice. I said to

4668
04:24:43,440 --> 04:24:45,200
Speaker 1: the girl, we need to get out of here, and

4669
04:24:45,240 --> 04:24:47,480
Speaker 1: she nodded. Then we headed down to the lobby. The

4670
04:24:47,480 --> 04:24:49,400
Speaker 1: doors were locked and no one caring a key was

4671
04:24:49,440 --> 04:24:51,960
Speaker 1: in the building, and the girl just looked bad. But

4672
04:24:52,040 --> 04:24:54,280
Speaker 1: when I went to the fire escape she still said no, no,

4673
04:24:54,320 --> 04:24:57,800
Speaker 1: we're not supposed to. We need to get out. They'll

4674
04:24:57,840 --> 04:25:00,560
Speaker 1: fire us. And I could hear of the fear in

4675
04:25:00,600 --> 04:25:03,480
Speaker 1: her voice, and I wondered how badly she needed this job,

4676
04:25:03,720 --> 04:25:05,560
Speaker 1: that she was here in the middle of the night,

4677
04:25:05,640 --> 04:25:09,200
Speaker 1: so sick she could hardly stand. Tell them I did it,

4678
04:25:09,240 --> 04:25:12,400
Speaker 1: I said, and hit the bar, only it didn't move

4679
04:25:12,480 --> 04:25:15,920
Speaker 1: because the fire escape was locked too. The next thing

4680
04:25:15,960 --> 04:25:18,080
Speaker 1: I did was stupid, but I don't know what else

4681
04:25:18,080 --> 04:25:19,880
Speaker 1: I could have done. I walked back to the lobby

4682
04:25:19,920 --> 04:25:21,720
Speaker 1: and picked up a garbage can and began slamming it

4683
04:25:21,760 --> 04:25:24,800
Speaker 1: into the glass door behind me. She was coughing and

4684
04:25:24,800 --> 04:25:27,600
Speaker 1: coughing and said maybe stop, stop, but so faintly I

4685
04:25:27,640 --> 04:25:30,240
Speaker 1: could ignore it. Then we were out, and she was

4686
04:25:30,280 --> 04:25:33,240
Speaker 1: staggering towards the emergency room on wilette and I was

4687
04:25:33,280 --> 04:25:36,200
Speaker 1: alone in the rain water the same temperature as my blood.

4688
04:25:36,840 --> 04:25:39,240
Speaker 1: Then I went looking for a pay phone, because the

4689
04:25:39,280 --> 04:25:41,120
Speaker 1: only way to sort this out was to call in,

4690
04:25:41,680 --> 04:25:44,760
Speaker 1: but I couldn't remember which of Western Morgan's departments Misty

4691
04:25:44,840 --> 04:25:47,040
Speaker 1: was assigned to. So when I finally found the city's

4692
04:25:47,160 --> 04:25:50,280
Speaker 1: last pay phone in the bus depot, I called them all.

4693
04:25:50,320 --> 04:25:52,880
Speaker 1: All the sad voices of men and women here and

4694
04:25:52,960 --> 04:25:57,120
Speaker 1: on the other side of the world. Welcome to Caiphus

4695
04:25:57,280 --> 04:26:01,920
Speaker 1: Business Systems. Jane speaking, Can I help you? Welcome to

4696
04:26:01,960 --> 04:26:06,520
Speaker 1: Tesla Mobility. Can I help you? Welcome to Roscommon Account Services.

4697
04:26:06,640 --> 04:26:10,760
Speaker 1: Welcome to Lighthouse Mobility. I'm looking for Misty, she helped

4698
04:26:10,800 --> 04:26:13,680
Speaker 1: me before. I'm sure I can help you. What's your

4699
04:26:13,760 --> 04:26:16,960
Speaker 1: user number, Misty, Misty knows, I said, my voice, queer

4700
04:26:17,040 --> 04:26:19,920
Speaker 1: less and elderly. Put on Misty. I could hear the

4701
04:26:20,000 --> 04:26:23,240
Speaker 1: exhaustion in his silence than the compliance. One moment, I'll

4702
04:26:23,240 --> 04:26:27,880
Speaker 1: transfer you. Hey, Misty, I said, Misty, Misty, you need

4703
04:26:27,920 --> 04:26:33,240
Speaker 1: to get to high ground. What who is this? Just promise, kay,

4704
04:26:33,720 --> 04:26:36,760
Speaker 1: there's no tsunami warning. It's on its way. It's passing

4705
04:26:36,840 --> 04:26:40,880
Speaker 1: Japan and Hawaii. It hit the Allusians California. I hope

4706
04:26:40,920 --> 04:26:43,320
Speaker 1: she didn't mistake me for what I felt like right then,

4707
04:26:43,600 --> 04:26:47,040
Speaker 1: a crazy old man, mad with loneliness, longing to hear

4708
04:26:47,080 --> 04:26:48,840
Speaker 1: a voice in the void, even if it was only

4709
04:26:48,880 --> 04:26:51,200
Speaker 1: to harangue them for the weakness of their service and

4710
04:26:51,240 --> 04:26:57,040
Speaker 1: the terrible nature of their product. Mark another six hours

4711
04:26:57,040 --> 04:26:59,720
Speaker 1: to landfall. I know you'll still be on shift. Promise.

4712
04:27:01,880 --> 04:27:04,400
Speaker 1: I waited for her to disconnect, which was okay because

4713
04:27:04,440 --> 04:27:07,040
Speaker 1: at least I told her then. I think maybe she

4714
04:27:07,120 --> 04:27:10,560
Speaker 1: said thank you, Mark, or maybe it was just the

4715
04:27:10,600 --> 04:27:13,240
Speaker 1: noise in my head. I held the line another moment

4716
04:27:13,280 --> 04:27:16,240
Speaker 1: that hung up. I felt okay because I got through,

4717
04:27:16,280 --> 04:27:18,840
Speaker 1: because I wasn't in a cubicle anymore, because I could

4718
04:27:18,840 --> 04:27:21,400
Speaker 1: walk home and enjoy the silence before call of duty,

4719
04:27:21,400 --> 04:27:24,440
Speaker 1: marathons in the living room, enjoy the ashy rain falling

4720
04:27:24,480 --> 04:27:31,600
Speaker 1: across my slowly cooking skin. I walked home, Misty. I

4721
04:27:31,680 --> 04:27:36,640
Speaker 1: walked home, hoping. Misty said thank you Mark. It felt

4722
04:27:36,680 --> 04:27:38,520
Speaker 1: like I was slipping through a gap in the world

4723
04:27:38,640 --> 04:27:42,360
Speaker 1: between noises, kind of silent passage, the way kids slip

4724
04:27:42,360 --> 04:27:46,360
Speaker 1: along the abandoned rail easements in town below grade, the

4725
04:27:46,440 --> 04:27:49,800
Speaker 1: corridors of grass and rats and squirrels and birds. Between

4726
04:27:49,840 --> 04:27:53,560
Speaker 1: the noise of the phones and call of duty, between heartbeats,

4727
04:27:53,680 --> 04:27:56,800
Speaker 1: between crusting waves, The silence you hang on too for

4728
04:27:56,840 --> 04:27:59,320
Speaker 1: just a moment when someone hangs up before you go

4729
04:27:59,400 --> 04:28:02,480
Speaker 1: on to the next call, because there is temporarily a

4730
04:28:02,560 --> 04:28:06,320
Speaker 1: respect from the tyranny of the queue. The silence after

4731
04:28:06,360 --> 04:28:08,760
Speaker 1: a bullet connects or a wave hits on the other

4732
04:28:08,800 --> 04:28:12,080
Speaker 1: side of the world. I just hope harder and harder

4733
04:28:12,120 --> 04:28:15,000
Speaker 1: and harder that Misty would insist they unlocked the doors

4734
04:28:15,080 --> 04:28:17,720
Speaker 1: and break the windows, and they would escape before the

4735
04:28:17,760 --> 04:28:22,120
Speaker 1: wave arrived to wash the rest of us away. I

4736
04:28:22,160 --> 04:28:24,320
Speaker 1: don't know how to add a clapping sound effect without

4737
04:28:24,320 --> 04:28:29,520
Speaker 1: it just sounding horrible in the audio. Airhorns, you know what,

4738
04:28:29,720 --> 04:28:34,760
Speaker 1: danial Um already straight seconds of air horns or or

4739
04:28:35,080 --> 04:28:38,480
Speaker 1: or not? Um. I think the air horns are good.

4740
04:28:38,720 --> 04:28:42,480
Speaker 1: I was beautiful. Yeah, that was wonderful. It's really incredible,

4741
04:28:43,080 --> 04:28:50,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, and particularly relevant now. Yeah yeah unfortunately,

4742
04:28:50,960 --> 04:28:53,800
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, it with what happened Yeah, yeah, that is

4743
04:28:54,280 --> 04:28:57,640
Speaker 1: extra extra thou the whole time, what happened in the

4744
04:28:57,680 --> 04:29:05,960
Speaker 1: past week. Yeah yeah, that is a It sucks hm.

4745
04:29:08,040 --> 04:29:12,560
Speaker 1: If people want to find more of your work, or

4746
04:29:12,600 --> 04:29:18,560
Speaker 1: if there's anything you'd like to plug, now is the time, okay. UM.

4747
04:29:18,600 --> 04:29:22,520
Speaker 1: I have a website. It's called where is here dot

4748
04:29:22,560 --> 04:29:28,760
Speaker 1: c a UM, and I have jeez links to a

4749
04:29:28,760 --> 04:29:30,920
Speaker 1: bunch of my different short stories there. I have a

4750
04:29:31,040 --> 04:29:33,640
Speaker 1: novella coming out next year. A few years ago I

4751
04:29:33,640 --> 04:29:38,200
Speaker 1: post relished a novel. Um. But if you're interested in

4752
04:29:38,480 --> 04:29:41,400
Speaker 1: the climate change stuff, there's probably one I'd recommend called

4753
04:29:42,040 --> 04:29:45,480
Speaker 1: um an Important Failure that was in Clark's World. It's

4754
04:29:45,480 --> 04:29:48,880
Speaker 1: available to read online. It's been translated into Polish. It's

4755
04:29:48,880 --> 04:29:51,840
Speaker 1: in a couple of different collections. Um And, if I'm

4756
04:29:51,840 --> 04:29:58,400
Speaker 1: allowed to brag, which it won the the the Sturgeon

4757
04:29:58,400 --> 04:30:03,560
Speaker 1: Award last year, which is a science fiction award handed

4758
04:30:03,560 --> 04:30:07,360
Speaker 1: out by UM, an academic organization in the US. So,

4759
04:30:08,160 --> 04:30:10,280
Speaker 1: and it's about it's about climate change. It's all set

4760
04:30:10,280 --> 04:30:14,840
Speaker 1: on Vancouver Island, in Vancouver. I've heard you. I've heard

4761
04:30:14,880 --> 04:30:20,360
Speaker 1: you also have stories about ghosts. Yes, I have a

4762
04:30:20,440 --> 04:30:24,840
Speaker 1: genre I'm trying to establish that I call obstetrical horror

4763
04:30:25,120 --> 04:30:29,200
Speaker 1: that I started writing when I was pregnant. Yeah, giving

4764
04:30:29,280 --> 04:30:32,920
Speaker 1: birth is just such body horror. So ghosts, childbirth, all

4765
04:30:32,960 --> 04:30:36,040
Speaker 1: that stuff. Yeah, I read a lot about ghosts as well.

4766
04:30:36,080 --> 04:30:37,320
Speaker 1: You can find, like I say, a lot of that

4767
04:30:37,360 --> 04:30:40,160
Speaker 1: stuff on my website and links to anything that's available

4768
04:30:40,200 --> 04:30:42,240
Speaker 1: for free online. So yeah, where is here? Dot c

4769
04:30:42,400 --> 04:30:46,520
Speaker 1: A And I'm on Twitter a um at Canadianist, but

4770
04:30:47,080 --> 04:30:49,800
Speaker 1: I don't really use it that much. So I am

4771
04:30:49,840 --> 04:30:55,240
Speaker 1: excited for the combination of climate change fiction with horror fiction.

4772
04:30:56,080 --> 04:30:59,080
Speaker 1: Um And. By excited, it's like half half actually excited,

4773
04:30:59,240 --> 04:31:02,880
Speaker 1: half dreading because a lot of it's gonna probably be

4774
04:31:02,920 --> 04:31:05,560
Speaker 1: horrible in terms of people being like, you know, what's

4775
04:31:05,680 --> 04:31:11,080
Speaker 1: scary climates change, and you're like, okay, but yeah, but

4776
04:31:11,560 --> 04:31:13,800
Speaker 1: oh sorry, go on. I don't know, but I think

4777
04:31:13,800 --> 04:31:16,960
Speaker 1: there definitely is a good way to combine the the

4778
04:31:17,120 --> 04:31:19,680
Speaker 1: essential elements of both of those things to something that

4779
04:31:19,720 --> 04:31:23,080
Speaker 1: actually is really impactful that plays on human fears and

4780
04:31:23,120 --> 04:31:25,800
Speaker 1: emotions and how we can get over those fears and

4781
04:31:25,840 --> 04:31:30,280
Speaker 1: move towards something useful. Yeah, and it's also that horror

4782
04:31:30,360 --> 04:31:33,040
Speaker 1: going back for well however long you want to, we've

4783
04:31:33,040 --> 04:31:35,560
Speaker 1: been telling stories has given us a series of structures

4784
04:31:35,560 --> 04:31:39,440
Speaker 1: to kind of process that. UM. And I think that's

4785
04:31:39,440 --> 04:31:42,520
Speaker 1: really valuable that their patterns we can use to work through.

4786
04:31:42,640 --> 04:31:45,280
Speaker 1: And I mean writing climate change fiction. For me, I

4787
04:31:45,360 --> 04:31:49,480
Speaker 1: just finished another novella UM that's specifically about like near

4788
04:31:49,520 --> 04:31:53,240
Speaker 1: future stuff and about the wildfires a lot um. But

4789
04:31:53,800 --> 04:31:55,920
Speaker 1: you know, having a story to tell about it as

4790
04:31:55,920 --> 04:31:58,000
Speaker 1: a way of processing all the research I was doing,

4791
04:31:58,280 --> 04:32:01,960
Speaker 1: UM was really valuable. It's it's super useful. Yeah, and

4792
04:32:02,040 --> 04:32:04,920
Speaker 1: just um, I mean, you can call it therapeutic if

4793
04:32:04,920 --> 04:32:06,080
Speaker 1: you want, but I don't think it's that. I think

4794
04:32:06,080 --> 04:32:09,120
Speaker 1: it's organizing information in your head that is just simply

4795
04:32:09,200 --> 04:32:12,040
Speaker 1: too large for you to actually grasp. I mean I

4796
04:32:12,080 --> 04:32:15,040
Speaker 1: can't actually grasp this stuff, but no you can't. It's

4797
04:32:15,080 --> 04:32:21,360
Speaker 1: it's too bad. Yeah, exactly, exactly trying to mean, Yeah,

4798
04:32:21,400 --> 04:32:24,640
Speaker 1: horror does that probably better than almost any other genre. Yeah,

4799
04:32:24,760 --> 04:32:28,920
Speaker 1: I mean look what it horror does with adolescent anxieties

4800
04:32:29,240 --> 04:32:32,360
Speaker 1: or um, you know, all sorts of different the fear

4801
04:32:32,400 --> 04:32:34,520
Speaker 1: of dying, the fear of aging, if your illness, and

4802
04:32:34,520 --> 04:32:37,240
Speaker 1: stuff like that. So yeah, I think we have structures

4803
04:32:37,240 --> 04:32:41,080
Speaker 1: in place with horror fiction, um, and with sort of

4804
04:32:41,080 --> 04:32:43,880
Speaker 1: science fiction horror that kind of are gonna let us

4805
04:32:44,200 --> 04:32:47,680
Speaker 1: start to process things that are otherwise just too intellectual

4806
04:32:48,240 --> 04:32:51,200
Speaker 1: or not intellectual. But to abstract it's too it's too Yeah,

4807
04:32:51,240 --> 04:32:53,520
Speaker 1: abstractors I think is the right term, because I mean, like,

4808
04:32:54,280 --> 04:32:57,640
Speaker 1: I guess my fear of that is that, like climate change,

4809
04:32:57,720 --> 04:33:01,600
Speaker 1: fiction is just gonna resort to like the disaster story

4810
04:33:01,920 --> 04:33:05,440
Speaker 1: and it has very like glamorized weird versions of like

4811
04:33:05,480 --> 04:33:12,040
Speaker 1: apocalypses and disasters and like collapse and very like big

4812
04:33:12,160 --> 04:33:15,400
Speaker 1: ways that impact everything around you, when in actuality, the

4813
04:33:15,400 --> 04:33:18,120
Speaker 1: effects that they have are very localized and small and

4814
04:33:18,120 --> 04:33:21,600
Speaker 1: are still horrifying, but the way that they're framed is

4815
04:33:21,600 --> 04:33:23,640
Speaker 1: always frustrating in films, and you look at like, you know,

4816
04:33:23,680 --> 04:33:27,800
Speaker 1: a typical like you know, like apocalypse themed movie, I

4817
04:33:27,840 --> 04:33:32,759
Speaker 1: think is I'm afraid that the bigger you know, if

4818
04:33:32,800 --> 04:33:35,879
Speaker 1: you turn turn talking about like big movies, how it's

4819
04:33:35,919 --> 04:33:37,919
Speaker 1: going to frame in that way instead of these more

4820
04:33:38,000 --> 04:33:40,880
Speaker 1: kind of personal stories of like the horror of being

4821
04:33:40,880 --> 04:33:43,880
Speaker 1: trapped inside a warehouse as a tornado comes and you're

4822
04:33:43,919 --> 04:33:46,919
Speaker 1: not allowed to leave, which is a way more horrifying

4823
04:33:47,200 --> 04:33:51,000
Speaker 1: than oh, look, all of New York City is crumbling

4824
04:33:51,160 --> 04:33:54,840
Speaker 1: because of this pseudami, which is so big and like possible,

4825
04:33:54,960 --> 04:33:57,960
Speaker 1: I guess, but like that's so big you can't feel that.

4826
04:33:58,320 --> 04:34:01,040
Speaker 1: And what's more like gonna happen is people getting trapped

4827
04:34:01,080 --> 04:34:03,280
Speaker 1: in buildings and not being allowed to leave. And that's

4828
04:34:03,600 --> 04:34:07,800
Speaker 1: that's that's like, that's actual horner. Yeah. And it's intimate too,

4829
04:34:07,840 --> 04:34:11,280
Speaker 1: write like it's not it's not in distant idea, it's intimate.

4830
04:34:11,320 --> 04:34:14,400
Speaker 1: It's the particular consequence of something for a community, for

4831
04:34:14,440 --> 04:34:17,960
Speaker 1: an individual, for relationships, And if I can go on

4832
04:34:17,960 --> 04:34:22,040
Speaker 1: on this um there's an entire genre of apocalyptic fiction

4833
04:34:22,040 --> 04:34:23,640
Speaker 1: that kind of comes out of the early Cold War,

4834
04:34:24,040 --> 04:34:28,080
Speaker 1: and they're always these weirdly cozy apocalypse is where one

4835
04:34:28,200 --> 04:34:32,480
Speaker 1: white guy survives and in the new world he builds

4836
04:34:32,600 --> 04:34:35,960
Speaker 1: this kind of feudal fantasy. So I've actually this one

4837
04:34:36,040 --> 04:34:39,280
Speaker 1: filled The Last Babylon, where a character says, of these

4838
04:34:39,280 --> 04:34:42,480
Speaker 1: two spinster ladies that were miserable before the nuclear war.

4839
04:34:43,000 --> 04:34:45,399
Speaker 1: After the nuclear war, they're really happy because their lives

4840
04:34:45,400 --> 04:34:48,560
Speaker 1: have meaning now. And it's this, it's those are the

4841
04:34:48,560 --> 04:34:51,560
Speaker 1: apocalyptic stories that we've had. We need a new kind

4842
04:34:51,640 --> 04:34:53,560
Speaker 1: of story, a new kind of horror that I think,

4843
04:34:54,240 --> 04:34:56,600
Speaker 1: um that does exactly what you're talking about, that doesn't

4844
04:34:56,840 --> 04:35:01,520
Speaker 1: default to that weird heroism and one surviving kind of thing.

4845
04:35:02,160 --> 04:35:06,200
Speaker 1: There's a wonderful Corey doctor short story that that I

4846
04:35:06,240 --> 04:35:10,840
Speaker 1: think pivots off that idea nicely. Um in his his book, Uh,

4847
04:35:11,960 --> 04:35:18,200
Speaker 1: What is Unauthorized Toast? I think Bread an Authorized Bread

4848
04:35:18,240 --> 04:35:20,199
Speaker 1: is one of the stories in it, but the book

4849
04:35:20,280 --> 04:35:23,240
Speaker 1: is has a different it's a collection of his short stories.

4850
04:35:23,280 --> 04:35:26,560
Speaker 1: But there's um a post apocalyptic story that kind of

4851
04:35:26,600 --> 04:35:29,759
Speaker 1: follows a bunch of tech bros trying to do the

4852
04:35:29,759 --> 04:35:33,960
Speaker 1: traditional like survive the the apocalypse makes everything, you know

4853
04:35:34,360 --> 04:35:36,120
Speaker 1: better for me. I get to be a cool warlord

4854
04:35:36,160 --> 04:35:40,120
Speaker 1: thing and it's it's good. It doesn't end well for them.

4855
04:35:40,240 --> 04:35:44,640
Speaker 1: Um yeah, I I think the I think the thing

4856
04:35:44,800 --> 04:35:48,320
Speaker 1: that is important to do is like focus on the

4857
04:35:48,360 --> 04:35:52,040
Speaker 1: horror of the little things, like the little things on

4858
04:35:52,120 --> 04:35:54,000
Speaker 1: like a global scale. Like, like, the thing that is

4859
04:35:54,040 --> 04:35:57,320
Speaker 1: so frightening about climate change is that all of these

4860
04:35:57,520 --> 04:36:00,840
Speaker 1: the terrible things it's bringing are going to hit the

4861
04:36:00,880 --> 04:36:03,719
Speaker 1: same way mass shootings do, where it is a calamity

4862
04:36:03,840 --> 04:36:08,960
Speaker 1: for a community and people fifty miles away try to

4863
04:36:09,000 --> 04:36:12,680
Speaker 1: pretend it didn't happen and get to doing like their

4864
04:36:12,720 --> 04:36:16,440
Speaker 1: their daily stuff, Like that's what's that's what's so scary

4865
04:36:16,480 --> 04:36:18,719
Speaker 1: about it. It's not like you said, it's not the

4866
04:36:18,759 --> 04:36:21,520
Speaker 1: buildings in New York collapsing from a tidal wave. It's

4867
04:36:21,560 --> 04:36:23,600
Speaker 1: the birds stop singing and you still have to go

4868
04:36:23,640 --> 04:36:26,440
Speaker 1: to work. I'm I'm I'm writing a script right now

4869
04:36:26,520 --> 04:36:30,880
Speaker 1: for probably the show about how climate change is hard

4870
04:36:30,880 --> 04:36:33,200
Speaker 1: to think about because because how how big it is.

4871
04:36:33,640 --> 04:36:36,520
Speaker 1: And one of like the models that I'm trying to

4872
04:36:36,560 --> 04:36:39,040
Speaker 1: draw a comparison from is like it's almost like climate

4873
04:36:39,120 --> 04:36:41,400
Speaker 1: changes is like a type is like a type of

4874
04:36:41,400 --> 04:36:44,920
Speaker 1: Cathulhu in terms of the way it affects you, but

4875
04:36:45,440 --> 04:36:48,879
Speaker 1: you'll probably get by it's it can affect your neighbors,

4876
04:36:48,880 --> 04:36:50,720
Speaker 1: and you can watch it and you can watch it

4877
04:36:50,720 --> 04:36:54,040
Speaker 1: have other people, But like, it doesn't mean that your

4878
04:36:54,160 --> 04:36:56,040
Speaker 1: life is going to end this way because it's so

4879
04:36:56,200 --> 04:36:58,720
Speaker 1: it's so big and uncaring. It can attack so many

4880
04:36:58,720 --> 04:37:03,200
Speaker 1: places at once, but you don't know how like how

4881
04:37:03,240 --> 04:37:06,160
Speaker 1: big this effects are and how and what what what

4882
04:37:06,160 --> 04:37:09,680
Speaker 1: what the scale of them will be on your local area.

4883
04:37:10,120 --> 04:37:12,040
Speaker 1: So it's like this, it's this thing that is way

4884
04:37:12,040 --> 04:37:15,320
Speaker 1: more existential than anything else because it it does not

4885
04:37:15,520 --> 04:37:17,800
Speaker 1: it does not care, it has it has no morality.

4886
04:37:18,080 --> 04:37:20,480
Speaker 1: It's it's not it's not out to get you specifically.

4887
04:37:20,800 --> 04:37:24,360
Speaker 1: It's this weird, this weird thing that's just getting imposed

4888
04:37:24,400 --> 04:37:28,080
Speaker 1: upon us now. And that type of horror in fiction,

4889
04:37:28,240 --> 04:37:30,160
Speaker 1: I think is something that at least I want to

4890
04:37:30,200 --> 04:37:32,560
Speaker 1: explore in my next few years of writing. And I'm

4891
04:37:32,600 --> 04:37:35,120
Speaker 1: excited to read other people's work who kind of covered

4892
04:37:35,160 --> 04:37:39,680
Speaker 1: that similar side of horror and combining with like climate

4893
04:37:39,759 --> 04:37:43,079
Speaker 1: change and the small ways it's going to start affecting

4894
04:37:43,200 --> 04:37:49,640
Speaker 1: us in places around the world. I think, um that

4895
04:37:50,160 --> 04:37:52,400
Speaker 1: what you said and isn't isn't there someone you talks

4896
04:37:52,400 --> 04:37:57,600
Speaker 1: about the Catholic scene, I don't know. Yeah, that's Donna Harroway,

4897
04:37:57,800 --> 04:38:01,520
Speaker 1: Donna Harroway, that's it. Yeah. Um. But but also just

4898
04:38:01,600 --> 04:38:04,720
Speaker 1: how weak some of our previous narratives like you can't

4899
04:38:04,840 --> 04:38:09,880
Speaker 1: you can't bring in you new Judeo Christian apocalypse is

4900
04:38:10,160 --> 04:38:12,080
Speaker 1: to this kind of thing because we can't. There's not

4901
04:38:12,200 --> 04:38:14,320
Speaker 1: you can't. We can't have that kind of moralizing in

4902
04:38:14,360 --> 04:38:17,800
Speaker 1: it um that we need. And that's honestly, Catholo is

4903
04:38:17,840 --> 04:38:21,520
Speaker 1: really handy for that cosmic horror because it forces you to,

4904
04:38:21,600 --> 04:38:24,520
Speaker 1: as you say, face something on an existential level, um,

4905
04:38:24,560 --> 04:38:26,840
Speaker 1: that how you feel and who you are and your

4906
04:38:26,840 --> 04:38:30,440
Speaker 1: individual experience does not matter. So it's like a lot

4907
04:38:30,480 --> 04:38:33,360
Speaker 1: of people, like you know us, we're watching what's happening

4908
04:38:33,400 --> 04:38:36,520
Speaker 1: in Kansas right now, and like I'm not in Kansas.

4909
04:38:36,640 --> 04:38:39,200
Speaker 1: I don't know anyone in Kansas. I'm looking at this

4910
04:38:39,320 --> 04:38:42,919
Speaker 1: calamity and it's so distant from me, but yet it's

4911
04:38:42,919 --> 04:38:48,320
Speaker 1: also very close. And that's a weird feeling to deal with. UM.

4912
04:38:48,360 --> 04:38:51,960
Speaker 1: And I can see, oh yeah, corporations are contributing to

4913
04:38:52,000 --> 04:38:55,080
Speaker 1: this specifically like climate change as in general, but like

4914
04:38:55,240 --> 04:38:58,280
Speaker 1: Amazon trapping people inside inside inside these warehouses. It's like,

4915
04:38:58,840 --> 04:39:01,480
Speaker 1: I can there's way used to fight extensions of this,

4916
04:39:01,880 --> 04:39:05,759
Speaker 1: but you can't fight it. You can only fight its extensions.

4917
04:39:06,240 --> 04:39:08,960
Speaker 1: And that's and yeah, it's it's it's a super it's

4918
04:39:08,960 --> 04:39:13,200
Speaker 1: a super interesting thing that I'm gonna I think, Yeah,

4919
04:39:13,240 --> 04:39:15,280
Speaker 1: we are going to see you know this, this idea

4920
04:39:15,360 --> 04:39:17,800
Speaker 1: get dealt with more and more as these things start

4921
04:39:17,880 --> 04:39:22,800
Speaker 1: happening more and more. Um, and yeah, I mean climate change,

4922
04:39:22,800 --> 04:39:29,239
Speaker 1: cosmic corps, maybe maybe the way to go. Yeah, yeah,

4923
04:39:29,280 --> 04:39:31,880
Speaker 1: I think that's I think that's a good line to

4924
04:39:32,040 --> 04:39:35,080
Speaker 1: end on, or at least a good thought to end on. Well,

4925
04:39:35,080 --> 04:39:37,840
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Rebecca for coming on and sharing

4926
04:39:37,880 --> 04:39:40,960
Speaker 1: your story. Would you mind plugging your website one last

4927
04:39:41,000 --> 04:39:45,880
Speaker 1: time since we extra like fifteen minutes? No, no, no, no,

4928
04:39:46,160 --> 04:39:52,320
Speaker 1: that's that's that's good. People may not have noted it

4929
04:39:52,440 --> 04:39:55,960
Speaker 1: last time before the conversation. We should give them another chance. Okay,

4930
04:39:56,000 --> 04:39:59,000
Speaker 1: So the website is where is here? Dot c A.

4931
04:39:59,759 --> 04:40:02,800
Speaker 1: It's O w h E R I s H E

4932
04:40:03,040 --> 04:40:06,760
Speaker 1: r E dot c A. Excellent. All right, Well, thank

4933
04:40:06,800 --> 04:40:12,920
Speaker 1: you very much, Rebecca. Um, until next time, everybody lose

4934
04:40:12,960 --> 04:40:17,720
Speaker 1: your mind with the cosmic horror, something something, anything, any

4935
04:40:17,759 --> 04:40:21,000
Speaker 1: kind of cosmic harror that consus you to to your

4936
04:40:21,120 --> 04:40:24,800
Speaker 1: your mind to scramble and you to begin worshiping in

4937
04:40:24,880 --> 04:40:27,040
Speaker 1: the dark corners of the world. Any anything that does

4938
04:40:27,080 --> 04:40:30,400
Speaker 1: that is good. So well, thank you so much for

4939
04:40:30,440 --> 04:40:34,120
Speaker 1: having me. It's an absolute pleasure, very very happy to

4940
04:40:34,160 --> 04:40:56,200
Speaker 1: have you. It could happen here to welcome the Evans

4941
04:40:56,280 --> 04:41:01,880
Speaker 1: Robert podcast. End of the World and beginning of news. Yeah.

4942
04:41:02,320 --> 04:41:06,680
Speaker 1: I think we did it right. Evans, Evans Robert. Who's

4943
04:41:06,720 --> 04:41:11,080
Speaker 1: here with us? That would be killed Joy, Margaret and

4944
04:41:11,200 --> 04:41:15,640
Speaker 1: Victorman Sophie. I like this m keeping Victim Comma Sophie,

4945
04:41:15,680 --> 04:41:20,920
Speaker 1: kill Joy Comma Margaret, Um Margaret common as I could

4946
04:41:20,919 --> 04:41:28,200
Speaker 1: also attorney's general you kill Joy's Margaret. One of my

4947
04:41:28,280 --> 04:41:33,600
Speaker 1: hobbies is anytime I pluralize something, attorneys generally it Um, Margaret.

4948
04:41:33,680 --> 04:41:35,840
Speaker 1: How are you? How are you doing on this beautiful

4949
04:41:36,200 --> 04:41:41,000
Speaker 1: December day. I'm good. I just got my booster shot

4950
04:41:41,040 --> 04:41:44,480
Speaker 1: and the negative effects haven't kicked in yet. That's good. Um.

4951
04:41:44,480 --> 04:41:47,240
Speaker 1: How does it feel to have, like as your internet

4952
04:41:47,240 --> 04:41:49,840
Speaker 1: sped up now that I have a boost? Yeah, I'm

4953
04:41:49,840 --> 04:41:54,960
Speaker 1: making the same fight that everybody makes because it's easier

4954
04:41:54,960 --> 04:41:57,120
Speaker 1: than thinking about the fact that, oh, Macron looks like

4955
04:41:57,160 --> 04:42:00,480
Speaker 1: it's going to be a real, real, right mare, and

4956
04:42:00,520 --> 04:42:03,800
Speaker 1: the world's never going to go back to you know,

4957
04:42:03,840 --> 04:42:06,080
Speaker 1: it's not going back to normal. I miss It's it's

4958
04:42:06,120 --> 04:42:08,919
Speaker 1: being able to walk into a bar and not worry

4959
04:42:08,960 --> 04:42:11,840
Speaker 1: that I was going to catch a new variant of

4960
04:42:11,840 --> 04:42:19,840
Speaker 1: a plague. Yeah, yeah, that's a yeah. Yeah, how are

4961
04:42:19,880 --> 04:42:25,120
Speaker 1: you doing with the plague? I live completely alone and isolated,

4962
04:42:25,280 --> 04:42:28,600
Speaker 1: so which I you know, I'm not sure this is

4963
04:42:28,600 --> 04:42:30,240
Speaker 1: how I would have built my life if I hadn't

4964
04:42:30,280 --> 04:42:33,640
Speaker 1: done it during a plague. Yeah, I mean, well, I

4965
04:42:33,720 --> 04:42:38,840
Speaker 1: dream about interacting with humans. Yeah, just like hugging a

4966
04:42:38,919 --> 04:42:42,039
Speaker 1: person that that you don't know all that well and

4967
04:42:42,200 --> 04:42:46,359
Speaker 1: it not being like involving both of you risking your life.

4968
04:42:46,480 --> 04:42:52,880
Speaker 1: It's like a blood pact. Yes, we're going, Doug, and

4969
04:42:52,919 --> 04:42:56,399
Speaker 1: if we wind up in how we'll scream at Satan together. Um,

4970
04:42:56,600 --> 04:43:01,760
Speaker 1: come hug. You have written another story. I mean you

4971
04:43:01,759 --> 04:43:03,480
Speaker 1: wrote this a while ago, as you did with the

4972
04:43:03,520 --> 04:43:05,600
Speaker 1: last one. But we're doing We decided we one of

4973
04:43:05,640 --> 04:43:07,120
Speaker 1: the things we wanted to do to close this year

4974
04:43:07,120 --> 04:43:10,719
Speaker 1: out was a little bit more fiction, because fiction I

4975
04:43:10,759 --> 04:43:19,360
Speaker 1: think plays an underappreciated role in revolutionary practice in kind

4976
04:43:19,400 --> 04:43:24,239
Speaker 1: of every aspect of being someone who envisions the different world.

4977
04:43:24,520 --> 04:43:27,079
Speaker 1: Um so we we've always I mean, it could happen here.

4978
04:43:27,120 --> 04:43:29,160
Speaker 1: From the beginning, there was always a strong kind of

4979
04:43:29,840 --> 04:43:35,400
Speaker 1: um uh focus on fiction. Um and I'm really happy

4980
04:43:35,520 --> 04:43:39,079
Speaker 1: to be presenting another one of your stories today. Thanks.

4981
04:43:40,080 --> 04:43:44,480
Speaker 1: You want to introduced this piece, sure. This piece is

4982
04:43:44,480 --> 04:43:46,759
Speaker 1: called The Free Yorks of Cascadia. It was first published

4983
04:43:46,759 --> 04:43:49,360
Speaker 1: in Fantasy and Science Fiction, which is the name of

4984
04:43:49,360 --> 04:43:52,520
Speaker 1: a magazine. And this one was also really important to

4985
04:43:52,520 --> 04:43:54,480
Speaker 1: me because Fantasy and Science Fiction F and s F

4986
04:43:54,600 --> 04:43:56,440
Speaker 1: was one of the magazines that my my dad had

4987
04:43:56,480 --> 04:43:59,520
Speaker 1: a subscription to. Yeah, they go this a while. Yeah,

4988
04:44:00,000 --> 04:44:03,640
Speaker 1: this was a very um uh and it was a

4989
04:44:03,720 --> 04:44:07,200
Speaker 1: very important piece for me that it got published there. Yeah,

4990
04:44:07,240 --> 04:44:13,280
Speaker 1: that's awesome. Um well, let's uh, let's let's let's take

4991
04:44:13,320 --> 04:44:18,640
Speaker 1: a take a hop in a publicly funded bus and

4992
04:44:19,040 --> 04:44:22,919
Speaker 1: roll down to Storytown. Speaking of taking one's life in

4993
04:44:22,919 --> 04:44:27,239
Speaker 1: one's hands. The story is called The Free Orcs of Cascadia.

4994
04:44:28,800 --> 04:44:30,680
Speaker 1: You all know the first part of the story, the

4995
04:44:30,720 --> 04:44:33,600
Speaker 1: song ended in blood. It was two years ago in

4996
04:44:33,640 --> 04:44:37,200
Speaker 1: the summer. Rick Green, the singer of Goblin Forest crooned

4997
04:44:37,200 --> 04:44:40,360
Speaker 1: in his osbornesque voice to fifteen thousand Goblin metal fans.

4998
04:44:41,240 --> 04:44:43,760
Speaker 1: A short man wearing green body paint and brown leather

4999
04:44:43,800 --> 04:44:46,960
Speaker 1: stepped out from backstage, drew a sword and cut the

5000
04:44:47,000 --> 04:44:50,440
Speaker 1: singer down from behind. The last lyrics, Green Ever sang

5001
04:44:50,480 --> 04:44:53,440
Speaker 1: where take me back, take me back, take me back

5002
04:44:53,440 --> 04:44:56,919
Speaker 1: to the Misty Mountains. The man with the sword, of course,

5003
04:44:56,960 --> 04:44:59,800
Speaker 1: was Golf and Bull, the rhythm guitarist for Crumpatool. The

5004
04:45:00,000 --> 04:45:02,400
Speaker 1: been an act. He and his bandmates escaped in the

5005
04:45:02,480 --> 04:45:06,360
Speaker 1: ensuing chaos and remain at large to this day. Neither

5006
04:45:06,400 --> 04:45:08,759
Speaker 1: band has released a song or played a show Since

5007
04:45:09,200 --> 04:45:11,480
Speaker 1: the rest of Goblin Forest decided to call it quits.

5008
04:45:11,520 --> 04:45:14,640
Speaker 1: Without Green and crimp Atool, no one knew what happened

5009
04:45:14,680 --> 04:45:18,440
Speaker 1: to Crimpatool. Fans deserted the genre in droves, and overnight

5010
04:45:18,440 --> 04:45:21,079
Speaker 1: Goblin Medal went from stadium rock fad to a niche

5011
04:45:21,120 --> 04:45:25,160
Speaker 1: interest of the obscure Canadian orc cults were originated. It

5012
04:45:25,240 --> 04:45:28,160
Speaker 1: was no longer hip to be Green. If Golf and

5013
04:45:28,200 --> 04:45:30,360
Speaker 1: Bull had been trying to take the Goblin Medal throne,

5014
04:45:30,640 --> 04:45:35,360
Speaker 1: as it were, he failed spectacularly. Rumors have flown about

5015
04:45:35,400 --> 04:45:38,280
Speaker 1: motives and locations, but there have been no arrests and

5016
04:45:38,320 --> 04:45:41,080
Speaker 1: no public statement from the band. All we've had to

5017
04:45:41,120 --> 04:45:46,480
Speaker 1: work with were rumors until now. Earlier this month, Orc

5018
04:45:46,560 --> 04:45:49,360
Speaker 1: folk act uls Ereth listed Golf and Bull as the

5019
04:45:49,400 --> 04:45:52,039
Speaker 1: harpist in their liner notes of the single The Gray

5020
04:45:52,080 --> 04:45:55,600
Speaker 1: Fog of a Ruined Forest. Lsyth was as obscure as

5021
04:45:55,600 --> 04:45:59,000
Speaker 1: Crimpatool was infamous. The band had never done an interview,

5022
04:45:59,120 --> 04:46:02,240
Speaker 1: not even a photos shoot. Like everyone else these days

5023
04:46:02,240 --> 04:46:07,919
Speaker 1: in countercultural music, their videos featured only masked performers. I've

5024
04:46:07,960 --> 04:46:10,680
Speaker 1: been casually obsessed with post civilization culture ever since the

5025
04:46:10,680 --> 04:46:13,840
Speaker 1: Communicate from the Junkyard Rats of the Rust Belt, and

5026
04:46:13,880 --> 04:46:16,520
Speaker 1: I've been covering music of pretty much every secessionist movement

5027
04:46:16,520 --> 04:46:19,840
Speaker 1: and subculture I could sink my teeth into since after

5028
04:46:19,880 --> 04:46:21,920
Speaker 1: I saw those liner notes, I put out feelers to

5029
04:46:22,040 --> 04:46:24,320
Speaker 1: friends and friends of friends, and I waited, and last

5030
04:46:24,320 --> 04:46:26,720
Speaker 1: week I was invited to go to an Orc village

5031
04:46:26,800 --> 04:46:30,600
Speaker 1: hidden away in the burned forests of Cascadia. I was

5032
04:46:30,640 --> 04:46:32,560
Speaker 1: invited to be the first person to tell Golf and

5033
04:46:32,600 --> 04:46:37,120
Speaker 1: Bull's story hell Fire Harriet Exclusive. Usually I post full

5034
04:46:37,160 --> 04:46:39,480
Speaker 1: interviews for everyone, but reserve my travel diary for the

5035
04:46:39,520 --> 04:46:42,240
Speaker 1: patrons of my blog. This time, though, I'm foregoing that

5036
04:46:42,320 --> 04:46:44,760
Speaker 1: this story is too important, so I've interspersed to the

5037
04:46:44,800 --> 04:46:48,080
Speaker 1: two below. All I knew before I went with what

5038
04:46:48,160 --> 04:46:51,079
Speaker 1: everyone else knew. Three years ago, a bunch of metal

5039
04:46:51,080 --> 04:46:53,600
Speaker 1: heads and hippies and burners and nerds all decided to

5040
04:46:53,680 --> 04:46:56,320
Speaker 1: dress up like orcs and goblins, and some of them

5041
04:46:56,320 --> 04:46:58,840
Speaker 1: took it too far and decided to distance themselves from

5042
04:46:58,880 --> 04:47:02,600
Speaker 1: the rest of society. They got really famous one summer,

5043
04:47:02,759 --> 04:47:05,560
Speaker 1: then that fame died in a single bloody act, and

5044
04:47:05,600 --> 04:47:07,760
Speaker 1: who knows what kind of weird ship they're up to. Now,

5045
04:47:08,919 --> 04:47:11,120
Speaker 1: Before you get worried, no, I will never offer a

5046
04:47:11,160 --> 04:47:14,280
Speaker 1: platform to a fascist. Fascist. Fascism, as it turns out,

5047
04:47:14,400 --> 04:47:16,880
Speaker 1: is the furthest thing from golf and Ball's mind. What

5048
04:47:17,000 --> 04:47:20,880
Speaker 1: he's into is a lot weirder than that. Still, it's

5049
04:47:20,919 --> 04:47:23,079
Speaker 1: sort of lucky that I survived to write this story.

5050
04:47:25,320 --> 04:47:29,440
Speaker 1: So you killed a guy, Yeah, I killed a guy.

5051
04:47:30,080 --> 04:47:32,120
Speaker 1: We stared in silence at one another for a while.

5052
04:47:32,480 --> 04:47:34,759
Speaker 1: He wore rawhide and fur, and not much of either.

5053
04:47:35,160 --> 04:47:37,040
Speaker 1: He wasn't painted up, but his skin was sort of

5054
04:47:37,120 --> 04:47:40,440
Speaker 1: natural olive. His lower teeth were filed down to fangs

5055
04:47:40,480 --> 04:47:43,920
Speaker 1: like any serious works. There was still something unassuming about

5056
04:47:44,000 --> 04:47:48,120
Speaker 1: him that I have a hard time describing. You're waiting

5057
04:47:48,160 --> 04:47:50,560
Speaker 1: for me to tell you about it, aren't you. The

5058
04:47:50,600 --> 04:47:53,960
Speaker 1: interview was not off to a good start. Are you

5059
04:47:54,000 --> 04:47:57,280
Speaker 1: worried about how your words will sound in court? I

5060
04:47:57,400 --> 04:47:59,920
Speaker 1: killed Rick Green on stage with a sword in front

5061
04:47:59,919 --> 04:48:02,760
Speaker 1: of thousands of witnesses. Talking to the media isn't going

5062
04:48:02,800 --> 04:48:04,960
Speaker 1: to make anything worse for me at this point, and

5063
04:48:05,000 --> 04:48:07,160
Speaker 1: I don't respect the authority of the US government to

5064
04:48:07,200 --> 04:48:09,759
Speaker 1: hold me accountable for my actions. I will not go

5065
04:48:09,840 --> 04:48:13,560
Speaker 1: to court. So why do you do it? The old

5066
04:48:13,600 --> 04:48:17,120
Speaker 1: world is dying My world, the Free Orcs of Cascadia.

5067
04:48:17,320 --> 04:48:19,440
Speaker 1: We're not going to replace the old world, but we

5068
04:48:19,480 --> 04:48:22,240
Speaker 1: will be part of its replacement. In order to do that,

5069
04:48:22,320 --> 04:48:25,239
Speaker 1: we have to take ourselves seriously. An element of that

5070
04:48:25,280 --> 04:48:27,920
Speaker 1: struggle is the struggle to create meaning, to create a

5071
04:48:27,919 --> 04:48:31,399
Speaker 1: new sacred. I killed Rick Green because he was defiling

5072
04:48:31,520 --> 04:48:36,640
Speaker 1: something meant to be sacred. How so we share an aesthetic,

5073
04:48:36,840 --> 04:48:39,320
Speaker 1: but he didn't understand what it meant to be an orc.

5074
04:48:40,680 --> 04:48:43,680
Speaker 1: You killed him because he was a poser. I guess

5075
04:48:43,680 --> 04:48:47,480
Speaker 1: you could put it like that. So the lesson here is,

5076
04:48:47,919 --> 04:48:52,520
Speaker 1: don't be a poser. Don't be a poser. You heard

5077
04:48:52,520 --> 04:48:54,960
Speaker 1: it here first. Kids, don't be opposer, or golf and

5078
04:48:55,040 --> 04:48:59,120
Speaker 1: ball will literally murder you. They picked me up in

5079
04:48:59,120 --> 04:49:01,560
Speaker 1: the parking lot of girl This re outlet in northeast Portland.

5080
04:49:02,000 --> 04:49:04,600
Speaker 1: That's a mundane detail, I suppose, but perhaps the single

5081
04:49:04,600 --> 04:49:06,960
Speaker 1: most remarkable thing about my trip was the ever present

5082
04:49:07,040 --> 04:49:10,560
Speaker 1: contrast between mandanity and the bizarre. I bought a case

5083
04:49:10,560 --> 04:49:14,120
Speaker 1: of coconut water while we waited. Works might like coconut water.

5084
04:49:14,560 --> 04:49:17,560
Speaker 1: Who doesn't like coconut water? They showed up in a

5085
04:49:17,600 --> 04:49:20,040
Speaker 1: mid teens Honda Civic Sedan, and I've been hoping for

5086
04:49:20,080 --> 04:49:23,200
Speaker 1: something out of Mad Max. The two women who got out,

5087
04:49:23,200 --> 04:49:26,200
Speaker 1: one cis one trans, both white, were dressed in clean

5088
04:49:26,240 --> 04:49:28,880
Speaker 1: gray tank tops and leggings like half the women who

5089
04:49:28,880 --> 04:49:31,480
Speaker 1: live in Portland. To be honest, I only noticed them

5090
04:49:31,520 --> 04:49:33,559
Speaker 1: in the parking lot at all because the trans woman

5091
04:49:33,640 --> 04:49:37,040
Speaker 1: was cute. Hell Fire this this woman asked. She was

5092
04:49:37,080 --> 04:49:39,680
Speaker 1: tall and severe, with the fierce but almost trustworthy look

5093
04:49:39,680 --> 04:49:42,239
Speaker 1: of a loan shark, or, as it turned out, an

5094
04:49:42,320 --> 04:49:46,600
Speaker 1: Orchis enforcer. That's me, I said, Fenrik. This this woman

5095
04:49:46,640 --> 04:49:49,040
Speaker 1: offered her name, but no handshake. Fist bump or hug.

5096
04:49:49,680 --> 04:49:53,440
Speaker 1: I nodded. Norinda, the trans woman said, like a lot

5097
04:49:53,480 --> 04:49:55,759
Speaker 1: of trans women these days, she didn't bother to feminize

5098
04:49:55,759 --> 04:49:58,800
Speaker 1: her voice. Her name sounded familiar, but I couldn't place it.

5099
04:49:59,640 --> 04:50:01,880
Speaker 1: How is this going to work? I asked. We're going

5100
04:50:01,919 --> 04:50:03,719
Speaker 1: to drive around back where no one can see us.

5101
04:50:03,720 --> 04:50:06,240
Speaker 1: Fenric said, We're going to take your phone and laptop

5102
04:50:06,280 --> 04:50:08,160
Speaker 1: and any electronics and put them in a fara day

5103
04:50:08,160 --> 04:50:10,320
Speaker 1: in the car. Then we're going to put you in

5104
04:50:10,360 --> 04:50:12,960
Speaker 1: the trunk and drive out to the forest. Will provide

5105
04:50:13,000 --> 04:50:15,360
Speaker 1: you with a recorder and notebook when we arrive. You'll

5106
04:50:15,360 --> 04:50:18,320
Speaker 1: get your stuff back when we leave. I nodded, I'd

5107
04:50:18,320 --> 04:50:21,440
Speaker 1: pretty much expected this. Do you need to use the bathroom?

5108
04:50:21,480 --> 04:50:24,880
Speaker 1: Nor Into asked, have any medical conditions we should know about? No,

5109
04:50:25,080 --> 04:50:27,720
Speaker 1: and no, I said, either of you want a coconut water?

5110
04:50:30,840 --> 04:50:33,759
Speaker 1: Goblin Forests sang in English, but Crimptool's lyrics were all

5111
04:50:33,759 --> 04:50:37,920
Speaker 1: in Tolkien's Black Speech. Dark speech. Are lyrics were in

5112
04:50:38,120 --> 04:50:41,919
Speaker 1: dark Speech. Tolkien referred to the language as black speech.

5113
04:50:42,640 --> 04:50:45,320
Speaker 1: Token meant well, but he was about the most influential

5114
04:50:45,440 --> 04:50:49,440
Speaker 1: unconsciously racist author of the twentieth century. All his villains

5115
04:50:49,480 --> 04:50:52,280
Speaker 1: were either Green or Middle Eastern. When you engage with

5116
04:50:52,280 --> 04:50:55,120
Speaker 1: the work of historical authors, especially when you make derivative

5117
04:50:55,120 --> 04:50:57,920
Speaker 1: works a century later, you have to adapt to one's

5118
04:50:57,960 --> 04:51:01,800
Speaker 1: own social context. Calling the language black speech today is

5119
04:51:01,880 --> 04:51:05,879
Speaker 1: at best wildly misleading. Its name is a translation anyway,

5120
04:51:06,000 --> 04:51:10,000
Speaker 1: It's possible that dark speech is just as accurate. Besides,

5121
04:51:10,240 --> 04:51:13,360
Speaker 1: Token didn't write the language. He only wrote like sixteen

5122
04:51:13,360 --> 04:51:16,840
Speaker 1: words or something. We wrote the rest. Most of us

5123
04:51:16,840 --> 04:51:19,320
Speaker 1: prefer to translate the name of it as dark speech,

5124
04:51:20,440 --> 04:51:24,440
Speaker 1: since where murderers PC, my status as a person who

5125
04:51:24,440 --> 04:51:27,480
Speaker 1: has ended the life of another person carries no implications

5126
04:51:27,520 --> 04:51:30,239
Speaker 1: about my personal ethics other than that I clearly believe

5127
04:51:30,240 --> 04:51:33,200
Speaker 1: there are circumstances under which it's okay to kill someone.

5128
04:51:35,680 --> 04:51:38,360
Speaker 1: Imagine being at the Renaissance Fair when the apocalypse hits

5129
04:51:38,800 --> 04:51:41,640
Speaker 1: and you're stuck trying to recreate society, surrounded by swords

5130
04:51:41,640 --> 04:51:44,240
Speaker 1: and minstrels and these and thous. You know how that

5131
04:51:44,280 --> 04:51:46,360
Speaker 1: sounds like either heaven or held, depending on who you

5132
04:51:46,400 --> 04:51:49,640
Speaker 1: are and also who you're stuck there with. That was

5133
04:51:49,680 --> 04:51:52,840
Speaker 1: my first impression of the village of Graymorrow. The fires

5134
04:51:52,840 --> 04:51:55,480
Speaker 1: out west have burned forest after forest and small town

5135
04:51:55,560 --> 04:51:57,680
Speaker 1: after small town. And no one tries to deny that

5136
04:51:57,680 --> 04:51:59,960
Speaker 1: pretty much every bioregion on the planet is going through

5137
04:52:00,040 --> 04:52:04,240
Speaker 1: transformation right now. It's in the worst spots, these dead ecologies,

5138
04:52:04,240 --> 04:52:07,280
Speaker 1: that the post civilization movement has found its roots, like

5139
04:52:07,360 --> 04:52:11,360
Speaker 1: wild flowers growing up between paving stones or rat's hiding

5140
04:52:11,400 --> 04:52:13,480
Speaker 1: in the walls. I guess, depending on who you ask,

5141
04:52:15,040 --> 04:52:17,480
Speaker 1: Gray Morrow sits in the scorched graveyard of a Douglas

5142
04:52:17,520 --> 04:52:20,000
Speaker 1: Fir forest, halfway up a mountain, occupying the remains of

5143
04:52:20,040 --> 04:52:23,680
Speaker 1: an evacuated town. Slab foundations are all that remain of

5144
04:52:23,720 --> 04:52:27,000
Speaker 1: the original structures. A seasonal creek runs through what was

5145
04:52:27,040 --> 04:52:29,040
Speaker 1: recently a river bed at the edge of the village,

5146
04:52:29,400 --> 04:52:32,280
Speaker 1: and long abandoned train tracks skirt the ridge above town.

5147
04:52:32,960 --> 04:52:35,240
Speaker 1: Even armed with all of that information, you'd still have

5148
04:52:35,240 --> 04:52:39,359
Speaker 1: at least seventy or eighty possible spots to search. Satellite

5149
04:52:39,360 --> 04:52:42,040
Speaker 1: imagery would help, of course, I can't imagine that the

5150
04:52:42,040 --> 04:52:44,000
Speaker 1: Big Six texts or the U. S Government don't know

5151
04:52:44,000 --> 04:52:47,560
Speaker 1: where Gray Morrow is. The residents of Gray Morrow in general,

5152
04:52:47,600 --> 04:52:50,120
Speaker 1: and Golf and Bole in particular, had an awful lot

5153
04:52:50,160 --> 04:52:53,960
Speaker 1: to lose by letting me write this report. Nourenda let

5154
04:52:53,960 --> 04:52:55,600
Speaker 1: me out of the trunk, and she smiled when she

5155
04:52:55,640 --> 04:52:58,480
Speaker 1: saw me. Her bottom teeth were filed. That should have

5156
04:52:58,480 --> 04:53:01,000
Speaker 1: been unnerving, but I've always been a sucker for face

5157
04:53:01,040 --> 04:53:03,720
Speaker 1: tattoos or anything that really shows someone is going for broke.

5158
04:53:04,440 --> 04:53:07,960
Speaker 1: Fenric just stared at me severe. Being severe was pretty

5159
04:53:08,000 --> 04:53:10,200
Speaker 1: much her thing, as far as I could tell. She

5160
04:53:10,240 --> 04:53:13,800
Speaker 1: took a sip from her coconut water. Three other cars

5161
04:53:13,800 --> 04:53:16,720
Speaker 1: filled a makeshift parking lot. The village itself was surrounded

5162
04:53:16,720 --> 04:53:19,080
Speaker 1: by a wall built from black and logs, set upright

5163
04:53:19,120 --> 04:53:22,520
Speaker 1: and buried in the ruins of the road. My escorts

5164
04:53:22,520 --> 04:53:25,400
Speaker 1: had changed clothes and route. Fenric looked like a bandit

5165
04:53:25,440 --> 04:53:28,280
Speaker 1: out of Skyrim, complete with iron pauldron on one shoulder

5166
04:53:28,360 --> 04:53:31,160
Speaker 1: and a hand axe strapped to her belt. I won't

5167
04:53:31,240 --> 04:53:33,960
Speaker 1: lie it was a good look. I'm no fashion reporter,

5168
04:53:34,000 --> 04:53:35,840
Speaker 1: but I figured half the magazines in New York would

5169
04:53:35,840 --> 04:53:37,440
Speaker 1: love to get someone out here and take pictures of

5170
04:53:37,520 --> 04:53:41,120
Speaker 1: orcs like her. Nornda wore a simple, modest dress of

5171
04:53:41,200 --> 04:53:45,280
Speaker 1: undyed wool. Imagine a Viking kindergarten teacher who also wears

5172
04:53:45,320 --> 04:53:47,960
Speaker 1: a rather large dagger horizontally on her belt at the

5173
04:53:48,000 --> 04:53:51,600
Speaker 1: small of her back. My crushing on her intensified. She

5174
04:53:51,720 --> 04:53:54,520
Speaker 1: handed me a spiral notebook and an old fashioned digital recorder,

5175
04:53:54,640 --> 04:53:59,000
Speaker 1: and we walked into the village. A lot of people

5176
04:53:59,040 --> 04:54:01,640
Speaker 1: say that you killed Rick Green because you're jealous of

5177
04:54:01,640 --> 04:54:05,280
Speaker 1: Goblin Forest's success. That the orci Is Code insisted that

5178
04:54:05,320 --> 04:54:07,280
Speaker 1: if you wanted the throne, you had to kill the

5179
04:54:07,320 --> 04:54:11,399
Speaker 1: reigning monarch. Golf and Bull stopped fidgeting and stared directly

5180
04:54:11,440 --> 04:54:16,079
Speaker 1: at me, his dark brown eyes boring into me. That's bullshit.

5181
04:54:17,080 --> 04:54:22,080
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's like three layers deep of bullshit. He

5182
04:54:22,160 --> 04:54:24,560
Speaker 1: was still staring at me. I was starting to regret

5183
04:54:24,560 --> 04:54:27,919
Speaker 1: this line of questioning. Okay, to start, there are pretty

5184
04:54:28,000 --> 04:54:30,559
Speaker 1: much two ways to interpret the Orcis Code of Honor.

5185
04:54:30,720 --> 04:54:34,160
Speaker 1: It's not written down anywhere, but there's some strong central themes,

5186
04:54:34,200 --> 04:54:38,360
Speaker 1: like an interdependence between individual sovereignty and collective identity. We

5187
04:54:38,480 --> 04:54:42,640
Speaker 1: value strength, but the idea is that everyone develops their

5188
04:54:42,640 --> 04:54:45,399
Speaker 1: own strengths, whatever they may be, for the benefit of all.

5189
04:54:45,680 --> 04:54:47,720
Speaker 1: One should be as self reliant as one is able

5190
04:54:47,759 --> 04:54:49,800
Speaker 1: to be, both for one's own sake and again for

5191
04:54:49,840 --> 04:54:53,960
Speaker 1: the community's sake. I cared deeply about this. That same

5192
04:54:54,000 --> 04:54:57,960
Speaker 1: basic idea, though, can be interpreted two different ways. So

5193
04:54:58,040 --> 04:55:00,960
Speaker 1: there's a split in the arc community. Damn right, there's

5194
04:55:01,000 --> 04:55:03,520
Speaker 1: a split. The free Orcs are matriarchal and the or

5195
04:55:03,600 --> 04:55:07,800
Speaker 1: Seene are patriarchal. Golfin Bill produced a cigarette from god

5196
04:55:07,840 --> 04:55:10,840
Speaker 1: knows where, considering how little he was wearing, and lit

5197
04:55:10,880 --> 04:55:13,440
Speaker 1: it with a lighter from the same mysterious origin. It

5198
04:55:13,560 --> 04:55:18,560
Speaker 1: wasn't tobacco, it wasn't weed. Maybe mugwart. The matriarchal way

5199
04:55:18,560 --> 04:55:22,359
Speaker 1: of interpreting those tenants is roughly anarchist. It's anti authoritarian,

5200
04:55:22,440 --> 04:55:25,520
Speaker 1: an anti nationalist. At the very least. We respect the

5201
04:55:25,560 --> 04:55:29,040
Speaker 1: wisdom of elders, children and women self identifying women. But

5202
04:55:29,080 --> 04:55:31,759
Speaker 1: the hierarchy is anything but rigid, and the guidelines are

5203
04:55:31,759 --> 04:55:35,240
Speaker 1: anything but laws. Most importantly, our sense of community or

5204
04:55:35,320 --> 04:55:39,280
Speaker 1: tribe is fluid. Gray Morrow is a free Orc village.

5205
04:55:39,919 --> 04:55:42,800
Speaker 1: Go fifteen miles southeast and you'll find a larger village

5206
04:55:42,919 --> 04:55:47,160
Speaker 1: lonely mountain there or seen. The patriarchal way of interpreting

5207
04:55:47,240 --> 04:55:51,720
Speaker 1: Orchish tenants is roughly fascistic. Authority is absolute. Rank within

5208
04:55:51,759 --> 04:55:55,120
Speaker 1: the hierarchy effects every aspect of one's own life. It's

5209
04:55:55,120 --> 04:55:59,200
Speaker 1: not racialized, but it's nationalistic. There are very specific considerations

5210
04:55:59,200 --> 04:56:02,160
Speaker 1: of who is isn't a part of any given social grouping,

5211
04:56:02,400 --> 04:56:05,800
Speaker 1: and definitions of strength tend to skew toward boring ship

5212
04:56:06,040 --> 04:56:10,080
Speaker 1: like physical size and power. So you tell any doubters

5213
04:56:10,120 --> 04:56:12,320
Speaker 1: that you weren't trying to claim the goblin throne because

5214
04:56:12,440 --> 04:56:15,640
Speaker 1: your faction of Orcs doesn't work that way. No orci

5215
04:56:15,680 --> 04:56:18,800
Speaker 1: Is culture works that way. Even those fascistic ships don't

5216
04:56:18,840 --> 04:56:21,240
Speaker 1: work that way. Among the or Seen. If you kill

5217
04:56:21,280 --> 04:56:23,880
Speaker 1: your superior, people aren't going to just suddenly start kissing

5218
04:56:23,880 --> 04:56:26,640
Speaker 1: your ass. They will literally flee you and turn your

5219
04:56:26,680 --> 04:56:29,640
Speaker 1: skin into a battle flag. You advance and rank by

5220
04:56:29,680 --> 04:56:33,840
Speaker 1: demonstrating your capacity to lead. This isn't some fucking Hollywood bullshit.

5221
04:56:34,200 --> 04:56:37,160
Speaker 1: Evil is a lot more banal than that. I didn't

5222
04:56:37,200 --> 04:56:39,200
Speaker 1: have the heart or maybe the courage to tell him

5223
04:56:39,240 --> 04:56:42,400
Speaker 1: that to me too, pretty much, any outsider Hollywood bullshit

5224
04:56:42,480 --> 04:56:45,480
Speaker 1: is exactly what the whole place looked like. When you

5225
04:56:45,520 --> 04:56:48,160
Speaker 1: say battle flag, what do you mean? Who do they do?

5226
04:56:48,200 --> 04:56:52,680
Speaker 1: Battle with? Us? The free Orcs? Are you at war

5227
04:56:53,400 --> 04:56:56,720
Speaker 1: for the very soul of our culture? How did that start?

5228
04:56:57,520 --> 04:57:01,520
Speaker 1: When I cut down Rick Green, the Mountain King? You

5229
04:57:01,640 --> 04:57:03,680
Speaker 1: killed him because he was the leader of a rival faction.

5230
04:57:03,720 --> 04:57:06,400
Speaker 1: Then not because he was a poser. They weren't a

5231
04:57:06,480 --> 04:57:09,240
Speaker 1: rival faction until I killed him, but sure he was

5232
04:57:09,320 --> 04:57:13,200
Speaker 1: a poser though all fascists opposers. Did you go on

5233
04:57:13,200 --> 04:57:17,440
Speaker 1: tour with Goblin Forest specifically to murder him? Yeah? Probably?

5234
04:57:18,440 --> 04:57:21,160
Speaker 1: What do you mean probably? That's a very specific question

5235
04:57:21,200 --> 04:57:24,440
Speaker 1: about a very specific intention. I mean, I guess I

5236
04:57:24,440 --> 04:57:26,800
Speaker 1: had been thinking about killing him for a while. It

5237
04:57:26,880 --> 04:57:31,399
Speaker 1: was premeditated, and it wasn't you know, No, I don't know,

5238
04:57:31,560 --> 04:57:34,960
Speaker 1: because I've never killed anyone. So it's like I've known

5239
04:57:35,040 --> 04:57:37,560
Speaker 1: Rick Green almost five years. He and I and maybe

5240
04:57:37,600 --> 04:57:40,520
Speaker 1: thirty other people. We started this whole thing, Goblin Metal

5241
04:57:40,560 --> 04:57:43,160
Speaker 1: of the Orcs, all of that. Rick Green has always

5242
04:57:43,160 --> 04:57:45,759
Speaker 1: been a fucking bastard. I figured I'd probably kill him

5243
04:57:45,800 --> 04:57:48,040
Speaker 1: one day for being kind of a Nazi or whatever.

5244
04:57:48,520 --> 04:57:50,800
Speaker 1: Then we go on tour together and I tell myself, Hey,

5245
04:57:50,880 --> 04:57:53,120
Speaker 1: if this goes badly, I can always just kill him

5246
04:57:53,160 --> 04:57:56,480
Speaker 1: on stage. You've got to understand Orcus culture wasn't even

5247
04:57:56,560 --> 04:57:59,240
Speaker 1: a year old at that point. We weren't split into

5248
04:57:59,240 --> 04:58:01,360
Speaker 1: the Free Orcs and the oar Seene yet. There were

5249
04:58:01,400 --> 04:58:04,480
Speaker 1: only maybe five villages total. We were just starting to

5250
04:58:04,560 --> 04:58:07,000
Speaker 1: explore what it meant to be ourselves, what kind of

5251
04:58:07,000 --> 04:58:09,800
Speaker 1: culture we could build. Then, while we were on tour,

5252
04:58:10,120 --> 04:58:13,920
Speaker 1: I hear he's got himself crowned the mountain king. And

5253
04:58:13,960 --> 04:58:15,920
Speaker 1: this isn't a game. I don't know how to get

5254
04:58:15,960 --> 04:58:18,640
Speaker 1: that through to you or your readers. This is our life.

5255
04:58:18,880 --> 04:58:20,480
Speaker 1: It's one thing to put on a silly hat and

5256
04:58:20,480 --> 04:58:22,960
Speaker 1: pretend to tell people what to do in some larp somewhere.

5257
04:58:23,200 --> 04:58:27,359
Speaker 1: But Rick Green had gotten himself corornated for real dictator

5258
04:58:27,560 --> 04:58:30,759
Speaker 1: over actual people. So I killed him. The Free York

5259
04:58:30,840 --> 04:58:33,200
Speaker 1: split off the oar seen closed ranks, and we've been

5260
04:58:33,200 --> 04:58:37,280
Speaker 1: at war ever since. Am I safe here? He didn't

5261
04:58:37,320 --> 04:58:39,560
Speaker 1: answer me at least he didn't stare me down again.

5262
04:58:40,040 --> 04:58:43,080
Speaker 1: He just looked off into the distance, maybe towards lonely mountain.

5263
04:58:45,080 --> 04:58:47,280
Speaker 1: I've been to LARPs before, where when you show up,

5264
04:58:47,280 --> 04:58:49,400
Speaker 1: they make you put on garb. That is to say,

5265
04:58:49,440 --> 04:58:52,040
Speaker 1: they make you wear period appropriate clothes, or whatever weird

5266
04:58:52,080 --> 04:58:55,720
Speaker 1: interpretation of period appropriate that particular group of Larbers had

5267
04:58:55,720 --> 04:58:58,680
Speaker 1: come up with. As I met the denizens of the village,

5268
04:58:59,720 --> 04:59:02,239
Speaker 1: they all came out to the parking lot to introduce themselves.

5269
04:59:02,560 --> 04:59:04,880
Speaker 1: I realized they didn't insist on anything like that because

5270
04:59:05,280 --> 04:59:08,120
Speaker 1: they weren't LARPing. Pretty much every one of them was

5271
04:59:08,200 --> 04:59:11,000
Speaker 1: dressed like either a Viking reenactor or fantasy game villain,

5272
04:59:11,440 --> 04:59:14,880
Speaker 1: but it wasn't an act. About thirty adults and eight

5273
04:59:14,960 --> 04:59:17,560
Speaker 1: kids lived there, running the age gamut from six months

5274
04:59:17,640 --> 04:59:21,039
Speaker 1: to seventy eight years. They told me their names and pronouns.

5275
04:59:21,080 --> 04:59:23,160
Speaker 1: About a third told me she a third he in

5276
04:59:23,160 --> 04:59:25,920
Speaker 1: the third day. Many of them were white or past

5277
04:59:25,960 --> 04:59:29,360
Speaker 1: as such, but a significant minority were black. Nourenda told

5278
04:59:29,400 --> 04:59:32,200
Speaker 1: me later their Orc villages with substantially higher proportions of

5279
04:59:32,200 --> 04:59:34,520
Speaker 1: people of color. That might be true, but I got

5280
04:59:34,520 --> 04:59:36,800
Speaker 1: the impression she said it to convince herself or me

5281
04:59:37,200 --> 04:59:40,800
Speaker 1: that the free Orcs aren't a specifically white phenomenon. No One,

5282
04:59:41,080 --> 04:59:43,680
Speaker 1: no one decent, likes looking around their community or scene

5283
04:59:43,680 --> 04:59:48,440
Speaker 1: and seeing only white faces smiling back. After everyone introduced themselves,

5284
04:59:48,480 --> 04:59:51,120
Speaker 1: immediately forgot all their names. There are only so many

5285
04:59:51,160 --> 04:59:53,960
Speaker 1: fantasy names like Lazarre and Demolin that you can hear

5286
04:59:54,000 --> 04:59:57,640
Speaker 1: before they all just sound the same. Nourenda and Fenrik

5287
04:59:57,720 --> 04:59:59,440
Speaker 1: flanked me as we walked through a gate in the

5288
04:59:59,480 --> 05:00:02,960
Speaker 1: wall into village. It's strange to say village in America.

5289
05:00:03,040 --> 05:00:05,759
Speaker 1: We don't really have villages here, but in some ways

5290
05:00:06,080 --> 05:00:09,680
Speaker 1: Graymorrow isn't the United States. And to be certain, it

5291
05:00:09,800 --> 05:00:12,759
Speaker 1: was a village, maybe ten or fifteen houses crowded together

5292
05:00:12,840 --> 05:00:16,359
Speaker 1: along either side of a single potholed street. Two architectural

5293
05:00:16,400 --> 05:00:19,680
Speaker 1: styles reigned, junkyard shacks built out of railroad cars in

5294
05:00:19,720 --> 05:00:24,040
Speaker 1: regular cars, and traditional American log cabins, many of them

5295
05:00:24,040 --> 05:00:26,840
Speaker 1: were adorned with solar panels. At the end of the street,

5296
05:00:26,919 --> 05:00:30,039
Speaker 1: near the black Palisade, the beginnings of a stone tower

5297
05:00:30,120 --> 05:00:33,320
Speaker 1: stood fifteen feet high. I wasn't sure if I was

5298
05:00:33,320 --> 05:00:36,040
Speaker 1: impressed or not. On one hand, the village couldn't have

5299
05:00:36,040 --> 05:00:37,760
Speaker 1: been around longer than three or four years, and they

5300
05:00:37,800 --> 05:00:40,720
Speaker 1: had already done so much. On the other hand, it

5301
05:00:40,840 --> 05:00:43,880
Speaker 1: was filthy. Everyone was filthy. I'm kind of obsessed with

5302
05:00:43,919 --> 05:00:45,759
Speaker 1: the post civilization movement, so I wish I could tell

5303
05:00:45,759 --> 05:00:49,199
Speaker 1: you everyone looked well fed and happy. They didn't people

5304
05:00:49,240 --> 05:00:51,360
Speaker 1: looked proud, and they didn't look miserable. But there was

5305
05:00:51,360 --> 05:00:54,120
Speaker 1: an intensity in everyone's eyes you simply could not mistake

5306
05:00:54,200 --> 05:00:58,320
Speaker 1: for happiness. A trash pile needed attending near the front gate,

5307
05:00:58,360 --> 05:01:00,800
Speaker 1: and some of the animal hides stretched tanning had begun

5308
05:01:00,840 --> 05:01:03,680
Speaker 1: to rot. Everything looked like it was about to fall apart,

5309
05:01:03,720 --> 05:01:07,760
Speaker 1: both physically and metaphorically. What now, I asked, when we

5310
05:01:07,800 --> 05:01:10,440
Speaker 1: reached the central square, a stone cobbled chunk of what

5311
05:01:10,560 --> 05:01:13,400
Speaker 1: had been once an intersection, now decorated with poorly tended

5312
05:01:13,400 --> 05:01:17,400
Speaker 1: gardens and rustic benches of dubious quality. You're here to

5313
05:01:17,440 --> 05:01:20,440
Speaker 1: interview golfen Ball or you're not, Fendrick asked, I am

5314
05:01:20,840 --> 05:01:24,160
Speaker 1: golf Ball doesn't live here. I waited for her to elaborate.

5315
05:01:24,600 --> 05:01:26,480
Speaker 1: Golfing Bull lives in the forest with the rest of

5316
05:01:26,520 --> 05:01:28,840
Speaker 1: his band. He's on his way. You'll meet him a

5317
05:01:28,840 --> 05:01:31,120
Speaker 1: bit outside of town. I'll take you to him when

5318
05:01:31,160 --> 05:01:34,920
Speaker 1: he gets there. Someone near the gates shouted, and both

5319
05:01:34,919 --> 05:01:38,120
Speaker 1: of my escorts flinched bodily and turned to look. It

5320
05:01:38,200 --> 05:01:40,800
Speaker 1: was just a kid chasing another kid with a wooden sword.

5321
05:01:41,640 --> 05:01:45,040
Speaker 1: Fenrick and Narindo were on edge. Something was about to happen.

5322
05:01:47,400 --> 05:01:50,200
Speaker 1: Tell me about your new band, Ulcerreth. What does the

5323
05:01:50,280 --> 05:01:54,080
Speaker 1: name mean? Alsrith is the dark speech word for the

5324
05:01:54,080 --> 05:01:56,320
Speaker 1: phase of the moon on the last night before the

5325
05:01:56,360 --> 05:01:59,760
Speaker 1: new moon, the last sliver of light. Ulsareth is a

5326
05:01:59,759 --> 05:02:03,000
Speaker 1: whole le day, a day of self reflection. Our band's

5327
05:02:03,080 --> 05:02:07,160
Speaker 1: music attempts to capture that spirit of self reflection. On Alcareth,

5328
05:02:07,320 --> 05:02:09,920
Speaker 1: we listen to our naysayer and think about ourselves and

5329
05:02:09,960 --> 05:02:15,840
Speaker 1: our community your naysayer. Free Orchish villages don't have leaders,

5330
05:02:16,000 --> 05:02:19,520
Speaker 1: We have naysayers. Two years ago we tried rotating leadership.

5331
05:02:19,680 --> 05:02:23,400
Speaker 1: It was ineffectual. We didn't need leaders. We stuck with

5332
05:02:23,440 --> 05:02:25,759
Speaker 1: it anyway, because we felt like we had to, because

5333
05:02:25,759 --> 05:02:28,080
Speaker 1: those were the rules we had come up with. Then

5334
05:02:28,120 --> 05:02:31,240
Speaker 1: one person said, basically, this is bullshit. We don't need

5335
05:02:31,280 --> 05:02:33,520
Speaker 1: someone to tell us what to do. We need someone

5336
05:02:33,560 --> 05:02:35,800
Speaker 1: to tell us what to stop doing. We need someone

5337
05:02:35,840 --> 05:02:38,520
Speaker 1: to tell us what we're doing wrong. Every new moon,

5338
05:02:38,600 --> 05:02:41,880
Speaker 1: every village picks a new naysayer. That person spends the

5339
05:02:41,880 --> 05:02:45,399
Speaker 1: month picking up heart group structures, observing what's happening, being critical.

5340
05:02:45,800 --> 05:02:49,039
Speaker 1: On Alsaret, we fast and listen to the naysayer. They

5341
05:02:49,040 --> 05:02:52,840
Speaker 1: don't offer solutions necessarily, but instead bring our problems to light.

5342
05:02:53,840 --> 05:02:57,720
Speaker 1: Does that work surprisingly well, except about a third of

5343
05:02:57,759 --> 05:03:00,480
Speaker 1: the naysayers end up leaving after their month. Some go

5344
05:03:00,560 --> 05:03:02,640
Speaker 1: to other villages, some good to live in the forest,

5345
05:03:02,759 --> 05:03:06,800
Speaker 1: like Narinda Alsyreth singer did, but most leave the woods.

5346
05:03:06,960 --> 05:03:11,480
Speaker 1: As we put it, most go back to civilization. That's

5347
05:03:11,480 --> 05:03:13,600
Speaker 1: why Noriinda's name sound of familiar when she didn't she

5348
05:03:13,640 --> 05:03:16,400
Speaker 1: introduced herself. To be honest, I saw your name list

5349
05:03:16,480 --> 05:03:18,320
Speaker 1: in the liner notes and didn't pay much attention to

5350
05:03:18,320 --> 05:03:21,280
Speaker 1: the rest. That's an argument for me to take my

5351
05:03:21,360 --> 05:03:24,759
Speaker 1: name off our next release. If there is one, why

5352
05:03:24,800 --> 05:03:26,640
Speaker 1: did you put it there in the first place, Why

5353
05:03:26,640 --> 05:03:28,560
Speaker 1: did you agree to this interview? And what do you

5354
05:03:28,560 --> 05:03:33,440
Speaker 1: mean if there is one? I told you we're at war. Yeah,

5355
05:03:33,759 --> 05:03:37,560
Speaker 1: we're losing that war. He took a deep breath, trying

5356
05:03:37,560 --> 05:03:39,680
Speaker 1: to keep himself calm. He didn't strike me as a

5357
05:03:39,720 --> 05:03:41,960
Speaker 1: man who was afraid to cry, but he was clearly

5358
05:03:42,040 --> 05:03:45,720
Speaker 1: trying to keep his composure. There's no way that Gray

5359
05:03:45,800 --> 05:03:47,919
Speaker 1: Morrow would have let you talk to me here if

5360
05:03:47,919 --> 05:03:50,240
Speaker 1: any of us thought that Gray Morrow had a future.

5361
05:03:50,640 --> 05:03:52,039
Speaker 1: There's no way I would have talked to you at

5362
05:03:52,040 --> 05:03:53,640
Speaker 1: all if I thought I was going to be alive

5363
05:03:53,720 --> 05:03:57,640
Speaker 1: to see another alterra. Why are you losing? Why are

5364
05:03:57,640 --> 05:04:01,600
Speaker 1: you going to die? It's not a question of military efficacy,

5365
05:04:01,720 --> 05:04:03,760
Speaker 1: or of bravery or strength or any of that ship.

5366
05:04:04,040 --> 05:04:07,200
Speaker 1: It's just a question of numbers or seen society. As

5367
05:04:07,240 --> 05:04:10,440
Speaker 1: a military society, every member fights as far as we

5368
05:04:10,480 --> 05:04:14,440
Speaker 1: can tell, they've got fiftundred warriors. We've got five hundred,

5369
05:04:15,600 --> 05:04:18,920
Speaker 1: so use guerrilla tactics. Golf and bull shook his head.

5370
05:04:20,000 --> 05:04:23,160
Speaker 1: Striking Rick Green down from behind was a cowardly action.

5371
05:04:23,440 --> 05:04:26,000
Speaker 1: I can justify it almost by the fact that Green

5372
05:04:26,080 --> 05:04:29,160
Speaker 1: had declared himself my monarch. But the or Seen warriors

5373
05:04:29,160 --> 05:04:31,800
Speaker 1: are my peers. They would not stalk me in the night.

5374
05:04:32,240 --> 05:04:36,720
Speaker 1: I will not stalk them. That sounds, I know how

5375
05:04:36,759 --> 05:04:40,800
Speaker 1: it sounds. So this interview I want to be remembered.

5376
05:04:40,919 --> 05:04:43,520
Speaker 1: I want the free Orcs of Cascadia to be remembered.

5377
05:04:43,759 --> 05:04:45,559
Speaker 1: I put my name on the liner notes so that

5378
05:04:45,600 --> 05:04:49,040
Speaker 1: someone like you, an anti fascist music blogger, would talk

5379
05:04:49,080 --> 05:04:51,600
Speaker 1: to me. I leveraged my own infamy to draw attention

5380
05:04:51,640 --> 05:04:55,600
Speaker 1: to what we're doing, what we've done. I fucking hate

5381
05:04:55,600 --> 05:05:00,800
Speaker 1: the tragic utopian trope. What like seriously like fuck you? Okay,

5382
05:05:00,840 --> 05:05:02,280
Speaker 1: I know I'm here as a journalist, but I'm not

5383
05:05:02,320 --> 05:05:05,320
Speaker 1: gonna write your fucking obituary. I don't think I've ever

5384
05:05:05,360 --> 05:05:08,840
Speaker 1: turned on an interview subject like that before. I get it.

5385
05:05:08,919 --> 05:05:11,480
Speaker 1: Hopeless causes are beautiful, but as I understand it, the

5386
05:05:11,520 --> 05:05:13,960
Speaker 1: whole goddamn point of holding onto your honor more firmly

5387
05:05:14,280 --> 05:05:16,080
Speaker 1: than your life is because the world is a better

5388
05:05:16,120 --> 05:05:20,120
Speaker 1: place for everyone if more people did that, right, Okay,

5389
05:05:20,600 --> 05:05:22,399
Speaker 1: the world isn't a goddamn better place if you let

5390
05:05:22,400 --> 05:05:24,480
Speaker 1: your subculture. And I'm sorry, I know it's very serious

5391
05:05:24,480 --> 05:05:26,160
Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to downplay it, but that's what

5392
05:05:26,200 --> 05:05:29,840
Speaker 1: this is, A musical subculture be taken over by fucking Nazis.

5393
05:05:30,440 --> 05:05:32,120
Speaker 1: And I respect that you're going to fight them for it.

5394
05:05:32,280 --> 05:05:34,919
Speaker 1: That's cool. But if you consider buying some guns, maybe

5395
05:05:34,919 --> 05:05:37,280
Speaker 1: a few drones. They'll come in here with spears, right,

5396
05:05:37,320 --> 05:05:40,800
Speaker 1: and you'll fight them off with other spears. It's man,

5397
05:05:40,840 --> 05:05:43,000
Speaker 1: there are fucking Nazis everywhere. If you don't give a

5398
05:05:43,000 --> 05:05:45,560
Speaker 1: shit about going to jail or dying, then fucking shoot

5399
05:05:45,560 --> 05:05:48,560
Speaker 1: the Nazis. We're trying to kill you. You You don't understand,

5400
05:05:49,200 --> 05:05:53,880
Speaker 1: You're fucking right, I don't, if I'm being honest. Most

5401
05:05:53,880 --> 05:05:55,600
Speaker 1: of the time I was waiting, I spent flirting with

5402
05:05:55,680 --> 05:05:58,600
Speaker 1: Norenda and avoiding talking to Fenrich Horenda asked me to

5403
05:05:58,680 --> 05:06:01,280
Speaker 1: keep our conversation off the wreck heard. We didn't talk

5404
05:06:01,320 --> 05:06:04,200
Speaker 1: about Gray Morrow or the orc thing much anyway. Everything

5405
05:06:04,200 --> 05:06:06,080
Speaker 1: I learned about the village and its culture, I learned

5406
05:06:06,080 --> 05:06:09,719
Speaker 1: by observation. Only an elderly man came by and offered

5407
05:06:09,759 --> 05:06:13,320
Speaker 1: us cold tea and wooden mugs steeped BlackBerry leaves sweetened

5408
05:06:13,360 --> 05:06:16,000
Speaker 1: with juice from the berries. He said, no caffeine, no

5409
05:06:16,080 --> 05:06:20,120
Speaker 1: other particularly strong medicinal effects. The three of us took

5410
05:06:20,160 --> 05:06:22,239
Speaker 1: cups from his bladder, and he continued down the street

5411
05:06:22,280 --> 05:06:26,040
Speaker 1: passing out drinks. No one else approached us. I watched

5412
05:06:26,040 --> 05:06:28,200
Speaker 1: people go about their lives, though the tension in the

5413
05:06:28,200 --> 05:06:31,000
Speaker 1: air was thick. I saw a few people look at

5414
05:06:31,040 --> 05:06:33,719
Speaker 1: cell phones and spent a not inconsiderable amount of time

5415
05:06:34,040 --> 05:06:36,400
Speaker 1: trying to decide if that was hypocritical and or bad

5416
05:06:36,440 --> 05:06:39,480
Speaker 1: ops SEC. Eventually I gave up because frankly, it wasn't

5417
05:06:39,520 --> 05:06:41,480
Speaker 1: my business, and one of the most interesting things about

5418
05:06:41,480 --> 05:06:44,000
Speaker 1: all the post civilization groups is all the bits and

5419
05:06:44,000 --> 05:06:47,919
Speaker 1: pieces they choose to carry over from mainstream culture. Finally,

5420
05:06:48,200 --> 05:06:52,800
Speaker 1: after an hour, Fenric stood up come with me. I

5421
05:06:52,880 --> 05:06:54,640
Speaker 1: followed her to the other side of town and through

5422
05:06:54,640 --> 05:06:57,320
Speaker 1: a smaller gait. On the other side, a box truck

5423
05:06:57,360 --> 05:06:59,480
Speaker 1: that had seen better days sat on a road that

5424
05:06:59,520 --> 05:07:02,280
Speaker 1: had to We skirted around the truck and up into

5425
05:07:02,320 --> 05:07:06,480
Speaker 1: the black forest. The scorched hills looked more like meadows

5426
05:07:06,480 --> 05:07:09,480
Speaker 1: than forests, with green grass and undergrowth broken only by

5427
05:07:09,520 --> 05:07:12,840
Speaker 1: black spikes of burned trees. We followed the path this

5428
05:07:12,840 --> 05:07:15,719
Speaker 1: way and that, and soon I was lost. Soon after

5429
05:07:16,160 --> 05:07:19,440
Speaker 1: fog set in, I was further through the looking glass

5430
05:07:19,440 --> 05:07:22,320
Speaker 1: than I had realized. I imagined us lost a mile

5431
05:07:22,400 --> 05:07:24,080
Speaker 1: from a town full of people who gave a double

5432
05:07:24,120 --> 05:07:26,079
Speaker 1: meaning to the word stranger, and probably at least an

5433
05:07:26,080 --> 05:07:29,440
Speaker 1: hour's drive from civilization. My guard hadn't shown me much

5434
05:07:29,440 --> 05:07:30,760
Speaker 1: in the way of kindness, and I was on my

5435
05:07:30,800 --> 05:07:32,640
Speaker 1: way to meet someone I knew to be a murderer.

5436
05:07:33,360 --> 05:07:34,960
Speaker 1: It's the kind of shift I live for. If I'm

5437
05:07:34,960 --> 05:07:37,640
Speaker 1: being honest, I love my stupid, fucking weird job in

5438
05:07:37,680 --> 05:07:40,480
Speaker 1: the stupid fucking weird world we live in. Thank you,

5439
05:07:40,640 --> 05:07:42,720
Speaker 1: my readers, for making that possible for me. Be sure

5440
05:07:42,759 --> 05:07:44,360
Speaker 1: to check out my Patreon page if this is the

5441
05:07:44,360 --> 05:07:46,640
Speaker 1: first thing you've read by me. Lots of members only

5442
05:07:46,680 --> 05:07:48,840
Speaker 1: content over there, including a few snippets of orc song

5443
05:07:48,880 --> 05:07:52,480
Speaker 1: from Narinda. The only thing I saw in the distance

5444
05:07:52,520 --> 05:07:55,000
Speaker 1: was a single black spire, thicker than the dead snags

5445
05:07:55,000 --> 05:07:57,640
Speaker 1: around me. As we approached it came into focus as

5446
05:07:57,640 --> 05:08:00,600
Speaker 1: a boulder jutting up into the sky like an angry finger.

5447
05:08:01,120 --> 05:08:02,840
Speaker 1: Sitting at the base of it was a short man

5448
05:08:02,919 --> 05:08:06,559
Speaker 1: with a sword across his lap, golfing bull. I'll leave

5449
05:08:06,600 --> 05:08:09,320
Speaker 1: you to to it, Fenrick said. She left me alone

5450
05:08:09,360 --> 05:08:12,160
Speaker 1: with an armed murderer. I sat down across from him,

5451
05:08:12,240 --> 05:08:14,800
Speaker 1: took out the notebook and recorder, and asked him questions.

5452
05:08:16,800 --> 05:08:21,320
Speaker 1: All right, convince me we can't fight them dishonorably, because

5453
05:08:21,320 --> 05:08:24,440
Speaker 1: you can't protect an idea by defiling that idea. We

5454
05:08:24,480 --> 05:08:26,360
Speaker 1: don't want them to destroy our way of life, but

5455
05:08:26,360 --> 05:08:28,879
Speaker 1: we don't want to destroy our way of life ourselves either.

5456
05:08:30,280 --> 05:08:32,520
Speaker 1: The basic problem with your scene is that they're interpreting

5457
05:08:32,520 --> 05:08:36,240
Speaker 1: your code of honor to mean might makes right. Yeah. Yes.

5458
05:08:37,360 --> 05:08:39,640
Speaker 1: By facing them an open battle and nobly dying or

5459
05:08:39,640 --> 05:08:42,760
Speaker 1: whatever your goddamn planet is, you're just letting them make

5460
05:08:43,040 --> 05:08:46,280
Speaker 1: m right. You're letting their superior numbers dictate what your

5461
05:08:46,280 --> 05:08:49,320
Speaker 1: cultures to look like. It's like majority voting, but even

5462
05:08:49,400 --> 05:08:52,919
Speaker 1: dumber because more people die. I expected him to double

5463
05:08:52,919 --> 05:08:55,840
Speaker 1: down on his position. Most men would. What do you

5464
05:08:55,880 --> 05:09:00,440
Speaker 1: suggest instead, Fuck? I don't know. Don't be here when attack,

5465
05:09:00,600 --> 05:09:03,079
Speaker 1: go somewhere else. Stay on the move, build your strength.

5466
05:09:03,400 --> 05:09:05,759
Speaker 1: Oh ship, That's what Rick Green was doing, wasn't it.

5467
05:09:07,919 --> 05:09:12,120
Speaker 1: Huh Goblin Forest singing in English, a stupid name like

5468
05:09:12,240 --> 05:09:14,720
Speaker 1: Rick Green. All that ship was designed to make Goblin

5469
05:09:14,720 --> 05:09:17,400
Speaker 1: metal more palatable to the masses, to get fans, to

5470
05:09:17,480 --> 05:09:24,200
Speaker 1: get recruits for his stupid, fucking fashy goals. Yep, do that.

5471
05:09:24,320 --> 05:09:26,480
Speaker 1: I mean, don't become fascists or change your name or

5472
05:09:26,520 --> 05:09:28,480
Speaker 1: make your music worse. Everyone knows Goblin Forest and have

5473
05:09:28,560 --> 05:09:31,920
Speaker 1: shipped on Crimpot School. Just don't be obscure for the

5474
05:09:31,919 --> 05:09:34,640
Speaker 1: sake of being obscure. Fucking advertise you have a decent

5475
05:09:34,640 --> 05:09:37,680
Speaker 1: thing going here. People are abandoning mainstream society left and right,

5476
05:09:38,000 --> 05:09:40,880
Speaker 1: no political pun intended. Make it easier for them to

5477
05:09:40,919 --> 05:09:42,640
Speaker 1: get here. Make it so that when you fight the

5478
05:09:42,640 --> 05:09:46,400
Speaker 1: fashion your epics swords and spears Viking deathmatch, you win

5479
05:09:47,120 --> 05:09:48,960
Speaker 1: better Yet, make it so they don't even want to

5480
05:09:49,000 --> 05:09:51,480
Speaker 1: funk with you because they know they'll lose. I don't

5481
05:09:51,520 --> 05:09:55,320
Speaker 1: know whether that would work, Yeah, but dying doesn't work either.

5482
05:09:56,400 --> 05:09:58,800
Speaker 1: The Eark way of life isn't meant to be some revolution.

5483
05:09:59,000 --> 05:10:01,280
Speaker 1: It's not meant to supply it the mainstream. It will

5484
05:10:01,280 --> 05:10:04,239
Speaker 1: never appeal to the mainstream, not without losing its soul.

5485
05:10:04,600 --> 05:10:08,640
Speaker 1: Would you live like this? Would you want to? You're right,

5486
05:10:09,000 --> 05:10:11,759
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with you weird subcultures, but I wouldn't want

5487
05:10:11,800 --> 05:10:14,320
Speaker 1: to live like you. We both stared at each other

5488
05:10:14,320 --> 05:10:19,200
Speaker 1: in silence. It wasn't an uncomfortable silence. We're both just thinking, okay,

5489
05:10:19,400 --> 05:10:21,520
Speaker 1: scrap that. You're never going to get big numbers. You

5490
05:10:21,520 --> 05:10:23,720
Speaker 1: don't need big numbers. You don't want big numbers. You

5491
05:10:23,759 --> 05:10:29,360
Speaker 1: don't need recruits, you need allies. What would that look like? God,

5492
05:10:29,400 --> 05:10:32,199
Speaker 1: damn dude, all orchishmn note, actually listen to women's ideas.

5493
05:10:32,200 --> 05:10:34,520
Speaker 1: I'm used to guys just talking over me or shutting

5494
05:10:34,520 --> 05:10:38,160
Speaker 1: down completely. If I get mad free orci ish men,

5495
05:10:38,240 --> 05:10:42,440
Speaker 1: I would hope know how to listen. Guns break the

5496
05:10:42,440 --> 05:10:45,600
Speaker 1: spell and the spill you're casting here. It's powerful, it's good.

5497
05:10:45,759 --> 05:10:48,640
Speaker 1: So no guns. Other people have guns, though, Let those

5498
05:10:48,680 --> 05:10:51,640
Speaker 1: people stand guard or make their arm presence. Note outside

5499
05:10:51,759 --> 05:10:55,280
Speaker 1: or seen camps, other people have access to, say, dock scene,

5500
05:10:55,320 --> 05:10:56,960
Speaker 1: how many recruits are the or scene going to get?

5501
05:10:57,000 --> 05:10:58,920
Speaker 1: If every time some want to be forced Nazi dude

5502
05:10:59,000 --> 05:11:01,680
Speaker 1: joins someone to as his mother what they're about for

5503
05:11:01,759 --> 05:11:03,920
Speaker 1: access to the media. How many recruits are going to

5504
05:11:04,000 --> 05:11:06,480
Speaker 1: join if everyone knows the or sene or poser is

5505
05:11:06,480 --> 05:11:09,040
Speaker 1: putting out substandard water and down goblin metal just to

5506
05:11:09,040 --> 05:11:11,400
Speaker 1: try and lure an impressionable military aged men to fight

5507
05:11:11,440 --> 05:11:15,760
Speaker 1: their holy war. You'll write those stories. I'm not gonna

5508
05:11:15,759 --> 05:11:18,440
Speaker 1: write you any propaganda, but sure I'll tell the truth.

5509
05:11:19,160 --> 05:11:23,000
Speaker 1: How do we get allies? But at another single, maybe

5510
05:11:23,000 --> 05:11:25,120
Speaker 1: a full length? The gray Fog of a Ruined Forest

5511
05:11:25,160 --> 05:11:28,120
Speaker 1: was the best ship of hurtin years. You're redefining folk music,

5512
05:11:28,120 --> 05:11:30,720
Speaker 1: just like you redefined metal without ship like that, and

5513
05:11:30,720 --> 05:11:33,640
Speaker 1: I'll cover it. Talk to more press, maybe someone other

5514
05:11:33,680 --> 05:11:35,680
Speaker 1: than you. Not everyone's going to be sympathetic to what

5515
05:11:35,720 --> 05:11:38,160
Speaker 1: you did, even if that fucking guy was a fucking

5516
05:11:38,160 --> 05:11:42,040
Speaker 1: tree Nazi hunting horn cut through the fog and through

5517
05:11:42,040 --> 05:11:45,320
Speaker 1: our conversation, and my subject's face fell into despair for

5518
05:11:45,360 --> 05:11:50,720
Speaker 1: a half second before determination took over. What's that? Interviews

5519
05:11:50,800 --> 05:11:53,480
Speaker 1: over and I thought there would be more time another day.

5520
05:11:53,520 --> 05:11:55,560
Speaker 1: At least we have to get you out of here.

5521
05:11:58,240 --> 05:12:01,079
Speaker 1: Turns out Fenrik had taken us on a purposefully circatuitous

5522
05:12:01,160 --> 05:12:03,440
Speaker 1: route into the woods. It wasn't a quarter of a

5523
05:12:03,480 --> 05:12:06,079
Speaker 1: mile straight downhill before golf and Bull and I reached

5524
05:12:06,080 --> 05:12:09,480
Speaker 1: the box truck at the back entrance to Graymorrow, Norinda

5525
05:12:09,520 --> 05:12:11,920
Speaker 1: and Fenric stood there talking with a kid, maybe fifteen,

5526
05:12:11,960 --> 05:12:14,520
Speaker 1: who was out of breath. She was dressed in scraps

5527
05:12:14,560 --> 05:12:16,960
Speaker 1: of fur and leather and cloth, like you might imagine

5528
05:12:16,960 --> 05:12:19,480
Speaker 1: a medieval beggar. It wasn't until I noticed all the

5529
05:12:19,480 --> 05:12:21,879
Speaker 1: twigs and sticks and moss tangled up in the fabrics

5530
05:12:21,919 --> 05:12:25,800
Speaker 1: I recognized it as camouflage. I saw about thirty the scout,

5531
05:12:25,880 --> 05:12:30,080
Speaker 1: for that's what she was said about. Fenrick asked, exactly

5532
05:12:30,120 --> 05:12:32,800
Speaker 1: thirty ten with pikes, ten with tower, shields and swords,

5533
05:12:32,840 --> 05:12:35,960
Speaker 1: five archers, two scouts to command, one non combatant. I'd

5534
05:12:35,960 --> 05:12:39,079
Speaker 1: guess a surgeon, but I couldn't promise how far away

5535
05:12:39,080 --> 05:12:42,720
Speaker 1: I asked. Fenrick glared at me for interrupting. Five miles

5536
05:12:42,759 --> 05:12:45,760
Speaker 1: Norenda said probably three and a half by now downhill.

5537
05:12:46,160 --> 05:12:47,800
Speaker 1: We have time to get you out with the children

5538
05:12:47,840 --> 05:12:51,720
Speaker 1: and the elders. The scout had just run five miles

5539
05:12:51,840 --> 05:12:54,320
Speaker 1: uphill because she was too stubborn to use a walkie

5540
05:12:54,320 --> 05:12:57,919
Speaker 1: talkie or a cell phone. We should evacuate everyone. Golfen

5541
05:12:57,960 --> 05:13:01,840
Speaker 1: Bull said what Fenrick asked. We've got walls and almost

5542
05:13:01,880 --> 05:13:04,919
Speaker 1: even numbers. Fuck them, this is our home. I wanted

5543
05:13:04,919 --> 05:13:06,880
Speaker 1: to shout at her. I wanted to shake her, to

5544
05:13:06,919 --> 05:13:09,200
Speaker 1: tell her this wasn't a fucking game, that it wasn't

5545
05:13:09,240 --> 05:13:12,080
Speaker 1: the twelfth century, and that killing people or dying over

5546
05:13:12,120 --> 05:13:15,440
Speaker 1: some squatted chunk of nowhere was somewhere between stupid and reprehensible.

5547
05:13:16,000 --> 05:13:19,320
Speaker 1: It didn't, though I'm a good journalist, This isn't the

5548
05:13:19,320 --> 05:13:21,400
Speaker 1: place for us to debate this, Nerenda said, and all

5549
05:13:21,440 --> 05:13:23,040
Speaker 1: four of them walked through the gate and left me

5550
05:13:23,080 --> 05:13:26,880
Speaker 1: standing by the truck. That was why the gardens were untended,

5551
05:13:26,880 --> 05:13:28,759
Speaker 1: and with the trash was piled up and the hides

5552
05:13:28,800 --> 05:13:32,080
Speaker 1: were left to rot. They were expecting this. They'd lost

5553
05:13:32,160 --> 05:13:33,960
Speaker 1: their will to pretend like their lives were going to

5554
05:13:33,960 --> 05:13:38,120
Speaker 1: continue to progress forward. I'm not the first to suggest

5555
05:13:38,120 --> 05:13:41,520
Speaker 1: that nihilism is the dominant effect of society today, with

5556
05:13:41,600 --> 05:13:44,680
Speaker 1: climate change destroying communities and bioregions all over the map,

5557
05:13:45,120 --> 05:13:47,919
Speaker 1: with the economic crisis deepening and the wealth gap widening,

5558
05:13:48,280 --> 05:13:50,080
Speaker 1: I think all of us are guilty of forgetting to

5559
05:13:50,160 --> 05:13:52,720
Speaker 1: tend our gardens. All of us have a hard time

5560
05:13:52,720 --> 05:13:54,720
Speaker 1: figuring out why it matters whether or not we deal

5561
05:13:54,720 --> 05:13:58,160
Speaker 1: with our trash. All of us have proverbial or literal

5562
05:13:58,280 --> 05:14:01,560
Speaker 1: Nazis marching on us. The Nazis the free orcs A

5563
05:14:01,600 --> 05:14:05,800
Speaker 1: Cascady are dealing with are the literal variety. Some cosplain

5564
05:14:05,880 --> 05:14:08,640
Speaker 1: fascist was about to stick a sword between Norinda's ribs

5565
05:14:09,240 --> 05:14:12,280
Speaker 1: by ale rose in my throat. I don't know. I

5566
05:14:12,320 --> 05:14:14,400
Speaker 1: believe in love at first sight or any of that ship,

5567
05:14:15,040 --> 05:14:18,760
Speaker 1: but I just couldn't handle the idea. I fucking hate honor.

5568
05:14:19,200 --> 05:14:22,239
Speaker 1: I will never be an orc. I got lost running

5569
05:14:22,240 --> 05:14:25,120
Speaker 1: through solutions to the problem of hypothetical arrows and swords

5570
05:14:25,120 --> 05:14:28,520
Speaker 1: that were going to interfere with Nourinda's continued existence. Most

5571
05:14:28,520 --> 05:14:31,160
Speaker 1: of those solutions involved AsSalt rifles, which I didn't have

5572
05:14:31,200 --> 05:14:34,880
Speaker 1: access to. Cars, though were available. What's thirty warriors of

5573
05:14:34,960 --> 05:14:37,680
Speaker 1: medieval armor versus one station wagon driven by an angry

5574
05:14:37,720 --> 05:14:39,840
Speaker 1: woman with a lead foot. I put the odds in

5575
05:14:39,880 --> 05:14:43,640
Speaker 1: my favor. I wasn't going to do it, though. Instead

5576
05:14:43,759 --> 05:14:46,800
Speaker 1: I waited to evacuate. I don't think that speaks well

5577
05:14:46,800 --> 05:14:50,600
Speaker 1: of me. Individually and in groups, people came out through

5578
05:14:50,600 --> 05:14:52,840
Speaker 1: the gate and loaded bags and baskets onto the back

5579
05:14:52,880 --> 05:14:55,960
Speaker 1: of the truck. Noarinda returned with a simple backpack sewn

5580
05:14:56,040 --> 05:14:59,280
Speaker 1: from raw hide. Most of her belongings were probably wherever

5581
05:14:59,360 --> 05:15:01,440
Speaker 1: she engulf Am Bull and the rest of Alstreth lived.

5582
05:15:01,919 --> 05:15:05,880
Speaker 1: She handed me my phone. I didn't have service. I

5583
05:15:05,919 --> 05:15:08,920
Speaker 1: wondered whether or not she engulfing Bullward dating It wasn't

5584
05:15:09,080 --> 05:15:11,520
Speaker 1: relevant to the present moment exactly, but my mind always

5585
05:15:11,560 --> 05:15:13,360
Speaker 1: is a way of thinking about bullshit to avoid thinking

5586
05:15:13,400 --> 05:15:17,720
Speaker 1: about impending doom. Another important effect of our generation distract

5587
05:15:17,800 --> 05:15:21,040
Speaker 1: ourselves with disaster with petty things like love and jealousy.

5588
05:15:22,240 --> 05:15:23,640
Speaker 1: I don't know what you said to Golf and Bullner

5589
05:15:23,680 --> 05:15:26,120
Speaker 1: and said, but whatever it was worked. He just convinced

5590
05:15:26,120 --> 05:15:30,600
Speaker 1: everyone to evacuate everyone, I asked, shocked, everyone except him

5591
05:15:30,680 --> 05:15:34,480
Speaker 1: and Fenrik and Gorn. Which one's Gorn, the man who

5592
05:15:34,520 --> 05:15:37,240
Speaker 1: brought us tea? Do you remember him? He's old as ship, though,

5593
05:15:37,280 --> 05:15:41,080
Speaker 1: I said, because I have no fucking manners or common sense. Yeah,

5594
05:15:41,160 --> 05:15:43,480
Speaker 1: he's old as ship. He's a linguist by training. His

5595
05:15:43,560 --> 05:15:46,000
Speaker 1: main hobby is writing morbid poetry and dark speech, and

5596
05:15:46,480 --> 05:15:48,080
Speaker 1: when he can't figure out how to say something, he

5597
05:15:48,160 --> 05:15:50,560
Speaker 1: just makes up new words. He developed about a third

5598
05:15:50,600 --> 05:15:53,040
Speaker 1: of the language. Did all that ship before orc culture

5599
05:15:53,120 --> 05:15:56,079
Speaker 1: was even around he's also a widower three times over.

5600
05:15:56,480 --> 05:15:58,720
Speaker 1: He doesn't give a shit about dying. His last chat

5601
05:15:58,759 --> 05:16:02,680
Speaker 1: book was called Soon I will return to the earth. Oh,

5602
05:16:03,680 --> 05:16:05,960
Speaker 1: Gorn is going to die today. Golf and Bull and

5603
05:16:06,040 --> 05:16:08,040
Speaker 1: Fenric they're going to hold the wall as long as

5604
05:16:08,120 --> 05:16:10,640
Speaker 1: they can and then fall back to the woods. And you,

5605
05:16:10,840 --> 05:16:13,880
Speaker 1: I asked, I'm driving us out of here to another village.

5606
05:16:14,040 --> 05:16:17,600
Speaker 1: Then I'll take you home after that. I don't know, girl,

5607
05:16:18,040 --> 05:16:19,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. If I signed up for this, I

5608
05:16:19,640 --> 05:16:21,760
Speaker 1: might leave the woods go back to being a vet tech.

5609
05:16:22,640 --> 05:16:25,079
Speaker 1: I just nodded. I was too biased to offer objective

5610
05:16:25,120 --> 05:16:28,079
Speaker 1: life advice. Oh, and Golf and Bull said to give

5611
05:16:28,120 --> 05:16:30,440
Speaker 1: you this, he said, it's in case he dies. He says,

5612
05:16:30,520 --> 05:16:32,760
Speaker 1: you're right. You shouldn't have to write his obituary. So

5613
05:16:32,880 --> 05:16:35,879
Speaker 1: we wrote his own. She handed me a piece of paper.

5614
05:16:36,720 --> 05:16:38,480
Speaker 1: I piled into the back of the box truck with

5615
05:16:38,560 --> 05:16:41,840
Speaker 1: forty other people, many of them in tears, many of

5616
05:16:41,880 --> 05:16:45,720
Speaker 1: them in shock, and we drove away from Graymorrow. None

5617
05:16:45,759 --> 05:16:49,040
Speaker 1: of the three free Orc survived the battle. Gorn died

5618
05:16:49,160 --> 05:16:52,080
Speaker 1: and paled on a spear while holding the gate. Fedric

5619
05:16:52,160 --> 05:16:54,000
Speaker 1: was killed by an arrow that struck her in the back.

5620
05:16:54,080 --> 05:16:56,840
Speaker 1: Of the neck as she and golfing Bull ran golf

5621
05:16:56,880 --> 05:16:59,800
Speaker 1: and Bull Fenric's lover turned and stood his ground over

5622
05:16:59,840 --> 05:17:02,960
Speaker 1: her body. I didn't know any of that yet. I

5623
05:17:03,000 --> 05:17:06,480
Speaker 1: found out when Norinda found out two days later. Maybe

5624
05:17:06,520 --> 05:17:08,400
Speaker 1: all three of them would have survived if I hadn't

5625
05:17:08,440 --> 05:17:11,480
Speaker 1: interfered and they'd all fought with equal numbers, Maybe more

5626
05:17:11,520 --> 05:17:14,079
Speaker 1: of them would have died. Maybe I can forgive myself.

5627
05:17:14,560 --> 05:17:18,000
Speaker 1: Maybe there's nothing to forgive. In the back of the truck,

5628
05:17:18,360 --> 05:17:20,000
Speaker 1: by the light coming in through a crack in the

5629
05:17:20,080 --> 05:17:24,480
Speaker 1: steel wall, I read golf and Bull's note all my life.

5630
05:17:24,520 --> 05:17:26,880
Speaker 1: I didn't give a shit about anything. I liked weed

5631
05:17:27,000 --> 05:17:29,480
Speaker 1: and metal in whatever counterculture trend was big in a

5632
05:17:29,560 --> 05:17:31,920
Speaker 1: given year, but my heart wasn't in it. I just

5633
05:17:32,040 --> 05:17:35,840
Speaker 1: went through the motions until I became an orc, saying

5634
05:17:35,880 --> 05:17:37,759
Speaker 1: I'm an orc and meaning it. Isn't like a trans

5635
05:17:37,880 --> 05:17:40,240
Speaker 1: man saying he's a man and meaning it. Gender is

5636
05:17:40,240 --> 05:17:43,280
Speaker 1: a social construct that goes back as far as I understand,

5637
05:17:43,440 --> 05:17:46,280
Speaker 1: to the beginning of humanity. There has always been gender,

5638
05:17:46,360 --> 05:17:48,480
Speaker 1: and there have always been people who transgress the roles

5639
05:17:48,480 --> 05:17:51,360
Speaker 1: assigned to them at birth. An orc is a social

5640
05:17:51,520 --> 05:17:54,160
Speaker 1: construct that we just fucking made up. I mean, I

5641
05:17:54,240 --> 05:17:56,240
Speaker 1: guess the Orc is an archetype too, but it's a

5642
05:17:56,320 --> 05:18:00,000
Speaker 1: fantasy archetype. We know what to make believe. Make believe.

5643
05:18:00,000 --> 05:18:02,960
Speaker 1: Eve is what gave my life meaning. I promise you

5644
05:18:03,080 --> 05:18:05,120
Speaker 1: that for me. The day we decided we were works

5645
05:18:05,200 --> 05:18:07,600
Speaker 1: was the first day that the sun shone benevolence upon

5646
05:18:07,680 --> 05:18:10,320
Speaker 1: the world. It was the first day that color radiated

5647
05:18:10,360 --> 05:18:12,720
Speaker 1: from everything I saw. It was the first day that

5648
05:18:12,840 --> 05:18:15,239
Speaker 1: the rain on my roof tapped out codes of meaning.

5649
05:18:15,640 --> 05:18:18,400
Speaker 1: It was the first day of my life, my real life,

5650
05:18:19,160 --> 05:18:21,680
Speaker 1: my first Also, I fell in love with the world.

5651
05:18:22,440 --> 05:18:25,760
Speaker 1: Everyone finds meaning in different ways. I found meaning by

5652
05:18:25,800 --> 05:18:28,160
Speaker 1: believing in some ship we made up and letting that

5653
05:18:28,320 --> 05:18:32,960
Speaker 1: be real. I was born Jason Sanchez. I died gulfing bull.

5654
05:18:33,560 --> 05:18:38,120
Speaker 1: I'm not sorry. That was great that I mean, not

5655
05:18:38,240 --> 05:18:43,640
Speaker 1: my narration, the story. The story, not my narration. H

5656
05:18:44,919 --> 05:18:47,160
Speaker 1: the second way finished. We all just got that little

5657
05:18:47,200 --> 05:18:51,880
Speaker 1: smirk on our face, like that was delightful. Yeah, Margret,

5658
05:18:51,919 --> 05:18:56,480
Speaker 1: you're the best. Yeah, I mean, if I were going

5659
05:18:56,560 --> 05:19:00,280
Speaker 1: to be an Orc, there would be rifles but its

5660
05:19:00,320 --> 05:19:06,040
Speaker 1: own problems. Yeah, this is absolutely this is like a

5661
05:19:06,160 --> 05:19:07,960
Speaker 1: really good example of what I mean that when I

5662
05:19:08,040 --> 05:19:11,400
Speaker 1: write utopian fiction or like fiction about other societies. I'm

5663
05:19:11,480 --> 05:19:13,960
Speaker 1: not saying, hey, everyone go do this, or like this

5664
05:19:14,160 --> 05:19:16,760
Speaker 1: is what people should do. No, I mean I liked that.

5665
05:19:16,919 --> 05:19:19,080
Speaker 1: I like I like that I've had that experience in

5666
05:19:19,280 --> 05:19:22,160
Speaker 1: other cultures, you know, places like slab City and different

5667
05:19:22,280 --> 05:19:24,320
Speaker 1: kind of encampments and whatnot that I've spent a lot

5668
05:19:24,360 --> 05:19:26,440
Speaker 1: of time and as a journalist where it's like I'm

5669
05:19:26,480 --> 05:19:29,800
Speaker 1: fascinated by and I respect aspects of this, but like,

5670
05:19:30,520 --> 05:19:33,040
Speaker 1: I also think some of these things are that you're

5671
05:19:33,080 --> 05:19:35,680
Speaker 1: doing or dumb or I don't understand why you do it,

5672
05:19:35,800 --> 05:19:38,680
Speaker 1: or this isn't like you know, but you don't your

5673
05:19:38,720 --> 05:19:43,160
Speaker 1: notes don't matter. You know, that's not your job, although

5674
05:19:45,520 --> 05:19:48,720
Speaker 1: actually having an impact in that way is is kind

5675
05:19:48,759 --> 05:19:52,480
Speaker 1: of Yeah, I don't know. Somebody go somebody go make

5676
05:19:52,480 --> 05:19:56,040
Speaker 1: an work village. Yeah, yeah, I'll go out there, I'll

5677
05:19:56,080 --> 05:19:59,560
Speaker 1: report on it. We'll go. It'll be fine. Don't take

5678
05:19:59,560 --> 05:20:01,360
Speaker 1: the banda all sort of though I already stole that.

5679
05:20:03,680 --> 05:20:08,960
Speaker 1: There's a number of dope band names in here. All right,

5680
05:20:09,040 --> 05:20:11,200
Speaker 1: people should make orc folk. I'd be really excited to

5681
05:20:11,280 --> 05:20:20,320
Speaker 1: hear make orc folk abandon civilization to live as fantasy. Creatures, um,

5682
05:20:21,800 --> 05:20:26,840
Speaker 1: fight fascists, all that good stuff. Yeah, Margaret, is there

5683
05:20:26,919 --> 05:20:30,880
Speaker 1: anything you'd like to plug? Well? I do have a

5684
05:20:30,919 --> 05:20:33,440
Speaker 1: new book out, or a reprint of an older book

5685
05:20:33,520 --> 05:20:36,240
Speaker 1: called A Country Ghost that is a more directly utopian book.

5686
05:20:36,880 --> 05:20:39,520
Speaker 1: It's out from a K Press, came out last month,

5687
05:20:39,919 --> 05:20:44,280
Speaker 1: and um, I think that's it. That's the main thing. Oh,

5688
05:20:44,320 --> 05:20:46,200
Speaker 1: you can support me on Patreon, although it's no longer

5689
05:20:46,240 --> 05:20:48,960
Speaker 1: supporting me on Patreon. It's supporting a publishing thing that

5690
05:20:49,080 --> 05:20:51,560
Speaker 1: I'm starting back up with people called Strangers and a

5691
05:20:51,640 --> 05:20:55,600
Speaker 1: Tangled Wilderness. And it will publish fiction and memoir and

5692
05:20:55,680 --> 05:20:57,960
Speaker 1: like the kind of like more culture side of radical

5693
05:20:58,040 --> 05:21:01,640
Speaker 1: politics and less the like theory and stuff. What's the

5694
05:21:01,680 --> 05:21:06,079
Speaker 1: patreon Patreon dot com slash Strangers in the Tangled Wilderness

5695
05:21:06,120 --> 05:21:08,760
Speaker 1: because why would I pick short names for things? Don't

5696
05:21:08,800 --> 05:21:13,000
Speaker 1: do that? Yeah, and we have we have a live

5697
05:21:13,080 --> 05:21:17,000
Speaker 1: show coming up right, Robert, uh that doesn't sound like us.

5698
05:21:17,200 --> 05:21:20,320
Speaker 1: It's a virtual live show of for Behind the Bastards

5699
05:21:20,400 --> 05:21:26,960
Speaker 1: put our Friend prop that's on Thursday February. Allegedly moment

5700
05:21:27,000 --> 05:21:30,760
Speaker 1: House dot com slash Behind the Bastards. I can't confirm

5701
05:21:30,880 --> 05:21:35,640
Speaker 1: or deny that. Okay, you're getting a lawyer on here

5702
05:21:35,680 --> 05:21:40,000
Speaker 1: before you can. Sure, Yeah, let's get Moira on the

5703
05:21:40,080 --> 05:21:42,919
Speaker 1: horn and where come on the horn and tell us

5704
05:21:42,960 --> 05:21:47,360
Speaker 1: if we're actually doing this thing? That? Yeah? Are we also?

5705
05:21:47,480 --> 05:21:51,560
Speaker 1: Are we alive? That's another question? How I texture that

5706
05:21:51,680 --> 05:21:54,960
Speaker 1: most days? Um? All right, well, thank you Margaret, and

5707
05:21:55,080 --> 05:21:57,520
Speaker 1: thank you all for tuning in in the first year.

5708
05:21:58,000 --> 05:22:07,240
Speaker 1: Of the rest of the next year. Ya hey, we'll

5709
05:22:07,280 --> 05:22:10,320
Speaker 1: be back Monday with more episodes every week from now

5710
05:22:10,440 --> 05:22:13,680
Speaker 1: until the heat death of the Universe. It Could Happen

5711
05:22:13,720 --> 05:22:16,000
Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more

5712
05:22:16,080 --> 05:22:18,840
Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone

5713
05:22:18,880 --> 05:22:20,720
Speaker 1: media dot com, or check us out on the I

5714
05:22:20,840 --> 05:22:24,080
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

5715
05:22:24,680 --> 05:22:26,759
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

5716
05:22:26,880 --> 05:22:30,320
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks

5717
05:22:30,360 --> 05:22:30,840
Speaker 1: for listening.