1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 3 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 2: is Robert. 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And today on Stuff 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 3: to Blow Your Mind, we are going to be talking 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 3: about an animal. About the horned lizard or Frenosoma, a 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 3: genus of lizard native to North America, also known as 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 3: horned toads or horny toads. From what I've been reading, 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 3: I think the people in the biological sciences prefer the 10 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,959 Speaker 3: more accurate lizard appellation because they are certainly not toads, 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 3: though there are reasons for calling them toads, mainly that 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 3: they look like toads. 13 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 2: Now, we're going to probably try and stick to horned lizard. 14 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: I'm probably going to say horned lizard because I like 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 2: using the more antiquated term and it sounds more demonic. 16 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: But we also might say horny toad, horned toad, horn toad, 17 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: and so forth. Throughout the episode. 18 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 3: Horned Lizard makes me think learned lizard. You know, doesn't 19 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 3: it suggest a kind of wisdom? 20 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, sometimes lizards can appear quite wise, so I buy. 21 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 3: That, And in fact, you might even think about some 22 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 3: of the species of horned lizards as especially wise or 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 3: discerning among the reptile kind, because they, as we get 24 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 3: into later in this episode, they have some anti predator 25 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 3: strategies that really require snap judgment calls about say what 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 3: type of predator you're dealing with? 27 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 2: That's right, And I don't know if we'll get into 28 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: it in this episode or the next, but among the Navajo, 29 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 2: among the Dne people, they're sometimes called grandfather so I 30 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 2: think there is often that vibe of maybe sort of 31 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: wisdom and power to them. 32 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 3: Though I have to admit I did come to this 33 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 3: topic through more base and if you know us predictable routes. 34 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 3: So my window into talking about horned lizards was the 35 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 3: fact that for sci fi horror nerds like us, it's 36 00:01:58,800 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 3: alien summer. Would you have. 37 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, it's been an alien summer for me. We've 38 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: been chatting about alien movies and the upcoming alien movie. 39 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: So yeah, there's a lot of excitement in the air. 40 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a new alien movie coming out in theaters 41 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: later this week, Alien Romulus. Of course, there's no guarantee 42 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 3: ahead of time it's going to be good. I don't 43 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 3: think they've even released the critics embargo yet, But I'm 44 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 3: just recklessly letting myself get excited regardless. Tempering expectations is 45 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 3: for the week. 46 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: That's right, Say yes to Xenomorph and then figure the 47 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: rest out later. 48 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 3: You know, if I'm disappointed, I'm disappointed, It'll be okay. 49 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 3: So we've had Aliens on the brain for a few 50 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 3: months here, and we've covered a couple of Aliens copycat 51 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 3: movies on Weird House Cinema. We'll probably do at least 52 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:43,679 Speaker 3: one more. I think that's right. 53 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: We also had a seven part Monster Fact series on 54 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 2: the various creatures and organisms of the alien universe, with 55 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: part seven publishing this week. 56 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 3: M hmm. But so we've got all this excitement running 57 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 3: through us, and I was looking to find some real 58 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 3: world biology to cover that had parallels in a and 59 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 3: we've already done a lot of topics along these lines 60 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 3: in the past, and the idea of the xenomorph's weaponized 61 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 3: blood took hold. So in the Alien movies, if you 62 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 3: haven't seen them, the creature in these movies has extremely 63 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 3: potent acid for blood, which appears to serve as a 64 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 3: defense strategy. So if you cause injury to one of 65 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 3: the xenomorphs, you are likely to get some of its 66 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 3: blood on yourself or on your critical infrastructure, such as 67 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,839 Speaker 3: the inside of your spacecraft hull, and that blood will 68 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 3: burn through bodies and space ships alike. So, as observed 69 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 3: by the characters in the first movie, there's real danger 70 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 3: in injuring the creature. How do you fight it? 71 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: That's right. It's also worth pointing out that there is 72 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: at least some acid fluid as projectile in the xenomorph world. 73 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: The most, I would say, I guess the key example 74 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: would be in nineteen seventy nine's Alien the first film, 75 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: as we see that emergent face hugger seem to use 76 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: acidic secretions to burn through Caine's helmet in order to 77 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: access his face. Now, naturally, given that certain wounds, especially 78 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: lethal wounds to a Xenomorph, could result in a jet 79 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: of acidic blood, we could easily classify that as a 80 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: form of defensive spray. And then in Alien three and 81 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: Alien Resurrection, the third and fourth movies in the franchise, 82 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: we actually see Xenomorphs using an offensive acid spray attack, 83 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: And of course this has also been used to various 84 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 2: effect in Alien video games. For ranged enemies, as well 85 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 2: as in alien comic books and so forth. Also worth 86 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 2: pointing out that, given our current Mortal Kombat discussions on 87 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: Weird House Cinema, the acid spit is one of the 88 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 2: signature moves of the green clad Ninja reptile. 89 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 3: Is it really a spit because the animation looks to 90 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 3: me more like projectile vomit. 91 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: I think it depends. At least in the first game. 92 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,799 Speaker 2: He was in Mortal Kombat too, he would definitely spit. 93 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 2: I don't. It was like a kind of a sound 94 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 2: over and over again, and I think it got a 95 00:04:58,760 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: little more vomity later. 96 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 3: Okay. Now, of course, it's fairly common in the natural 97 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 3: world to find animals that produce some kind of toxic 98 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 3: defensive fluid that they use to protect themselves against predators 99 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 3: or attack prey. But what seemed less common, though perhaps 100 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 3: more common than you would think, was that the defensive 101 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 3: fluid in question was actually the animal's own blood. 102 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 2: That's right, because part of the logic here, of course, 103 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: is we tend to think vampire like when we think 104 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: about an organism's blood. Right, It's part of the prize, 105 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: It's part of the predator's claim. So broadly, speaking, it would, 106 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 2: on the surface anyway, seem illogical to think that a 107 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: predator could be harmed by the blood of its prey. 108 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 3: But here is where the horned lizard comes in. If 109 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: you know one thing about the horned lizard, it is 110 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 3: probably that these various species of lizards have a defensive 111 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 3: adaptation of squirting blood out of their eyes. 112 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: That's right. They're kind of internet famous for this, a 113 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 2: lot of clips, a lot of animations and videos. I 114 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 2: should also add that if you know one thing, you 115 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 2: should probably know two things. Also, that they're to some 116 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: extent horned up right, because right, tall them horned lizards, right. 117 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 3: But while lots of animals are spiky or horned in 118 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 3: some way, I would say that the blood squirting out 119 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 3: of the eyes is such a shocking behavior, such a 120 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 3: bizarre and seemingly rare adaptation, that you would almost have 121 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 3: to wonder if it's not real, Like is that something 122 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 3: people just made up? Or does that really happen? And 123 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: according to the author of a book that I'm going 124 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 3: to cite in this episode, reports of it have sometimes 125 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 3: in the past been dismissed as tall tales. But they're 126 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 3: not tall tales. The horn Blizzard's weaponized blood is absolutely 127 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 3: real and it is the subject of some interesting scientific investigation. 128 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 2: So this is going to be really fun to get 129 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 2: into now. When we were doing our pre research, though, Joe, 130 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 2: you brought up a resource that we've looked to in 131 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 2: the past, and that's the California herbs dot com website, 132 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 2: where they have a wonderful I mean, it's not just 133 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: about this, but they have a huge listing of various 134 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: herp appearances in various films, many of which are very 135 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: much in the domain of weird house cinema meaning reptiles, yes, yeah, yeah, 136 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 2: for herpetologist cinema files. And they have a list there 137 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: that you shared with me of horned lizards in movies, 138 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: and there are a few that I was familiar with, 139 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: you know, because they're pretty popular films. I think what 140 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: Outlaw Josie Wales is on there. 141 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but the wldye there are apparently a number 142 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 3: of you know, westerns I guess where there are horned lizards, 143 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 3: which makes sense because you know, you find a lot 144 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 3: of these several of these species are very common in 145 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 3: the American Southwest. 146 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: But also Jo Roowski's Holy Mountain is included there. His 147 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 2: film from nineteen seventy three that does have a very 148 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: memorable hert scene, though it may contain shots of actual 149 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 2: herbs exploded with fireworks, so you know, go into that 150 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: one with a certain amount of caution. But it's I mean, 151 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 2: it's holy mountains, so I'd advise a great deal of 152 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: content consideration before you watch it. Anyway, It's a it's 153 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 2: kind of a titan of surreal cinema and an important 154 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: film when you're looking at weird psychotronic pictures and you know, 155 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: Mexican cinema certainly cinema of the nineteen seventies. 156 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 3: But it is not for everyone. Yeah, that's not movie 157 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 3: Night with the grandparents. 158 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe the scene in question. It's been a 159 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: long time since I've seen it, and I have only 160 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: seen it like used to. The only way you could 161 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 2: watch it would be like a rip of a Japanese 162 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: laser disc. And they're much better sources for it available now. 163 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 2: But there is an extended scene where the conquest of 164 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: Mexico is recreated with like frogs and toads and lizards 165 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 2: standing in for the various actors and sides in this conflict. 166 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 3: I did not remember that detail there's a lot I've 167 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 3: forgotten about Holy Mountain. 168 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 2: So I would say cameo appearance by the horned lizard. Now, 169 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 2: it's worth noting at the top here that we're not 170 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 2: dealing with a single species when we're discussing horned lizards, 171 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: but rather an entire genus of North American lizards, and 172 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 2: that's Phinosoma, including some twenty one species which range as 173 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 2: far north as parts of Canada and on the southern 174 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 2: end range all the way through Mexico and into Guatemala. 175 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: And of these again, somewhere around twenty one species, at 176 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: least eight species squirt blood from the eye region. So 177 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 2: just an example of range here, there's the greater short 178 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 2: horned lizard or hernandez is short horned lizard, and it 179 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 2: can be found as far north as southern Saskatchewan and 180 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 2: Alberta and south into the Texas Panhandle in central Mexico. 181 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: And this is one of the species of bloodshooters. 182 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. But as you said, Rob, the various 183 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 3: species of horned lizards can be found all over the 184 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 3: western part of North America, from down to southern Mexico, 185 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 3: all the way up to the southern part of Canada. 186 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 3: And you can look up maps that show you sort 187 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 3: of different estimated ranges of the different species. But yeah, 188 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 3: you'll find them all throughout the arid and semi arid 189 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 3: regions of the North American West. Here, I think it 190 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 3: would be a good place to introduce one of my 191 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 3: major sources for this episode, which is a book called 192 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: Introduction to Horned Lizards of North America by Wade C. Sherbrook. 193 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 3: This was published by University of California Press in two 194 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 3: thousand and three, and the author, Wade Sherbrooke, was director 195 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 3: of the Southwestern Research Station of the American Museum of 196 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 3: Natural History, and so one of the questions Sherbrooke addresses 197 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 3: in the introduction of this book is why are horned 198 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 3: lizards commonly referred to as toads, horned toads, horny toads. Well, 199 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 3: they really do kind of look like toads. They tend 200 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 3: to have a wide body when viewed from above, especially 201 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 3: in certain defensive postures where they sort of flatten and 202 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 3: widen their bodies out to to sort of turn their 203 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 3: backs into a shield. They tend to for lizards have 204 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 3: a short, blunt snout which can resemble a toad's head, 205 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 3: and they also have an awkward walking gait. They tend 206 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 3: to have a camouflaged appearance which helps them blend into 207 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,479 Speaker 3: their often sandy or gravelly surroundings, and this can resemble 208 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 3: the model color patterns and bumpy texture you would see 209 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 3: on the backs of some toads, so in lots of 210 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 3: different ways they look like toads, and this led to 211 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 3: the name of their genus. Frinosoma means toad body phrenos 212 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 3: as toad and soma, of course means body, toad body, 213 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 3: total toad body to add to the toad comparisons to 214 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 3: make them even more of a toad body. You can 215 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 3: observe how they eat. Now. The different species of horned 216 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 3: lizards have some different different diets. Some are more taking 217 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 3: what they can get than others, but some are quite 218 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 3: specialized to eating insects and specifically ants, specifically even more 219 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: harvester ants. And if you watch the horned lizards eat 220 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 3: harvester ants when they specialize in this food source, they 221 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 3: have a kind of a sticky flicking tongue action, much 222 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 3: like we associate with toads and frogs. I was reading 223 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 3: in one part of the Sherbrook book about how exactly 224 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 3: it is that these horned lizards can eat these incredibly 225 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 3: venomous ants, and apparently they have a strategy of like 226 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 3: flicking them into the mouth and then as they swallow 227 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 3: the ant, the ant becomes covered in this layer of 228 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 3: mucus that comes out of glands in the lizard's throat, 229 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 3: and this coating of mucus surrounds the ant as the 230 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 3: ant is digested and essentially disables it from biting or 231 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 3: stinging the lizard from the inside until it is well 232 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 3: dead and able to be digested. And these lizards have 233 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 3: to eat a lot of these ants because ants are 234 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 3: not super nutritious like they've got There's not a lot 235 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 3: of meat on that bone. It's mostly bone. 236 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 2: That's right. Like For instance, one of the other big 237 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: ant eaters out there is of course the mammalian ant eater, 238 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: and they are known to eat tons of ants and termites, 239 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 2: seen estimates of like thirty thousand ants and termites a day. 240 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: But even that is still a low calorie diet, and 241 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 2: it's one of the reasons that we think that ant 242 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 2: eaters have one of the lowest mammalian body temperatures. But 243 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 2: in terms of the the what we're dealing with here, 244 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 2: the horned lizards consumption of ants. I found an interesting 245 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 2: article that answers the question, well, how do they eat 246 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 2: them safely? This was from two thousand and eight published 247 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: in the journal jazz A by Sherbrooke and Schwink. And 248 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: the answer is in the title Horned lizards incapacitate dangerous 249 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: ant prey with mucus. And we've already touched on like 250 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: the main aspect of this, but they provide one more 251 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: little detail that I really like. They're write quote. We 252 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 2: show that they're derived feeding kind of mattics are associated 253 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 2: with unique mucus secreting phar angel papilia that apparently serve 254 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: to immobilize and incapacitate dangerous ants as they are swallowed 255 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: by compacting them and binding them in mucus trans And 256 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: then they later add the detail. Ants extracted from fresh 257 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 2: killed horned lizard's stomachs are curled ventrally into balls and 258 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: bound in mucus. 259 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 3: Take an ant as you as you're swallowing it, coat 260 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 3: it with slime, and wadd it up into a ball 261 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 3: so that you can digest it without it getting into 262 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 3: trouble inside your digestive tract. That's right, roll them up, 263 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 3: all right, So that is horned lizards as predators. But 264 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 3: I wanted to focus for the majority of today's episode 265 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 3: on horned lizards as prey because it is, of course 266 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 3: in their role as prey and in their anti predator 267 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 3: defense strategies that we see the jets of blood emerge 268 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 3: from the eyes. So here I want to go back 269 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 3: to that book I mentioned by Wade Sherbrook. He has 270 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 3: an excellent section in this book called the Enemies and Defense, 271 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 3: which sort of covers a nearly comprehensive list of different 272 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 3: sort of predator prey relationships between horned lizard species and 273 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 3: the predators that target them, and the strategies they have 274 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 3: for resisting these predators. So, as we alluded to earlier, 275 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 3: horned lizards are of course covered in spikes and scales. 276 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 3: This is a pretty sophisticated armor defense. If you've never 277 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 3: seen what a horned lizard looks like, by the way, 278 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 3: you should look one up. I mean, first of all, 279 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 3: they are beautiful, but this will give you a better 280 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 3: idea of what we're talking about. As we continually reference 281 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 3: the armor moving on, they tend to have spikes and 282 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 3: scales along different parts of their bodies, such as sort 283 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 3: of spiky flank protrusions running down the lateral sides of 284 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 3: the body, but then also sometimes some kind of bumpy 285 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 3: or tough coverings on the back, and then especially bony 286 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 3: spike protrusions around the crown of the head. So some 287 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 3: of the spiky looking things, usually the smaller ones, are 288 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 3: just more modified scales, but the spikes around the head 289 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 3: are actually like hard, sharp bony spikes now covered in 290 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 3: spikes and scales as they are. You might not think 291 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 3: that a horned lizard would look very appetizing, but you 292 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 3: know out here in the arid and semi arid regions 293 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 3: of the American West, many predators will take whatever they 294 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: can get, and so horned lizards are indeed a prey 295 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 3: animal to many species of predators. Juveniles are the most 296 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 3: vulnerable to predation. They're smaller and they have less developed armor, 297 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 3: so many are eaten between the time they hatch from 298 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 3: their eggs and the first hibernation. But Sherbrooke in this 299 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 3: chapter gets into a list of different predators, and the 300 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 3: first one I want to look at is his section 301 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 3: on the long nosed leopard lizard or the Gambelia whizly zennii. 302 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 3: These are worth looking up a picture of as well, 303 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 3: because while they're not very interesting in terms of shape, 304 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 3: they're just sort of like larger looking predatory lizards. They 305 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 3: do have a truly leopard looking coloration pattern. 306 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, they're quite quite fetching in their own right. 307 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 3: So these lizards will frequently attack and eat horned lizards, 308 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 3: especially juveniles, and the general strategy here is not super complicated. 309 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 3: It is to bite them near the head and then 310 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 3: swallow them whole head first. You know, this is just 311 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 3: me reasoning from the pictures, but the sort of backwards 312 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 3: pointing orientation of the head spikes, because they sort of 313 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 3: extend backward from the head like a crown, it makes 314 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 3: it seem like it would probably be easier to swallow 315 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 3: a horned lizard head first rather than tail first. Like 316 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 3: if you went backwards, I would think the spikes would 317 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 3: would be more likely to catch like hooks in the 318 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,479 Speaker 3: lining of the throat and the digestive system. But it 319 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 3: also seems like eating one of these things head first 320 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 3: would be a very no going back scenario. You know, 321 00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 3: once you start eating a big one, you're committed. 322 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you can't put it in reverse. 323 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 3: Sherbrooke says in the book about defensive strategies that when 324 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 3: attacked by a leopard lizard a horned lizard, and again, 325 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 3: defensive strategies vary somewhat by species, so we'll be speaking 326 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 3: in some generalities here, but the horned lizard will often 327 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 3: try to defend itself by flattening out its back into 328 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 3: a wide shield shape so it wants to look as 329 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 3: wide as possible, and then tilting and orienting its armored 330 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 3: shield back toward the predator. And again, Adults with well 331 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 3: developed armor are much less vulnerable to leopard lizards. Now, 332 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 3: the next category is birds. A number of different birds 333 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 3: prey on horned lizards. Sherbert mentions hawks such as the 334 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 3: red shouldered hawk or Boeo lineatus, but also smaller birds 335 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 3: like the prairie falcon, the American kestrel, and the loggerhead shrike. 336 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 3: Predatory birds with powerful talons and beaks have an advantage 337 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 3: when preying on these lizards because they have the ability 338 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 3: to tear the lizard apart and eat it piece by piece, 339 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 3: making it a somewhat easier proposition to consume that this 340 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 3: spiky animal as opposed to an armored adult that needs 341 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 3: to be swallowed whole. However, it does still come with risks. 342 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 3: Sherbrooke mentions one case of a red shouldered hawk that 343 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 3: was found dead after having eaten a couple of Texas 344 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 3: horned lizards. Apparently one of the horns had pierced through 345 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 3: the hawk's throat from the inside. Oh, and I can't 346 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 3: help but apply like a human level of grossed out 347 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 3: to this. Like I know it's just part of their, 348 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 3: you know, their way of making a living, But I 349 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 3: cannot imagine eating something this spiky. 350 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 2: And it's like a like a like a wheat then, 351 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 2: except even worse. 352 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, Oh, it's like you know, you ever think 353 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 3: when you're like eating a tortilla chip and you don't 354 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 3: chew it upright and you get a shard caught in 355 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 3: your throat. Yep, okay. Another bird that preys on these 356 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 3: animals is the greater road runner or Geocossics californian us. 357 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 3: The greater roadrunner has an interesting strategy where it grabs 358 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 3: the horned lizard by a leg or by the tail 359 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 3: with its beak, and then it whips them up in 360 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 3: the air and slams them back down against the ground repeatedly, 361 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 3: so it is beating the lizard against the earth, using 362 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 3: centrifugal force to smash it dead. Basically, it bashes it 363 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 3: and bashes it until it is dead and busted up, 364 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 3: and this allows the roadrunner to take its time orienting 365 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 3: the lizard so it can be swallowed whole head first. 366 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 3: Rabbie attached to a picture for you of the Greater 367 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 3: Roadrunner trying to get this whole lizard into its mouth 368 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 3: head first that I don't know how this is going 369 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 3: to happen. This is just a photo from the book. 370 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 3: It's not animated, but I believe in you. 371 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, roadrunners are such interesting, weird 372 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 2: creatures in their own ride. I don't feel like the 373 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 2: cartoons properly prepared as for the reality only seen. I've 374 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: only seen them in the wild, I think one or 375 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 2: two times while out in the Arizona. But it's like 376 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: it's like seeing like the ghost of a dinosaur run by. 377 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 2: It's pretty neat. 378 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah. And of course, in the case of 379 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 3: the roadrunner swallowing it headfirst once again, keeps the horns 380 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 3: pointed away from the bird's vital organs. It's going down 381 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 3: the digestive tract. 382 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 2: Clever girl. 383 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, okay. So another bird predator, Chihuahuan ravens or 384 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 3: corvas crypto. Lucus Sherbrook says that these birds, they've got 385 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 3: an interesting difference here. They bring dead horned lizards to 386 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 3: their nests to feed their young, but the ravens render 387 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 3: them safe by not feeding them to their young hole, 388 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 3: but instead ripping them open and only feeding the soft 389 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 3: innerds to the hatchlings, so only guts for the children, 390 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 3: and then the carcass with the hard parts is discarded. 391 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 2: All right, Well that's not surprising. I'll leave it to 392 00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 2: the ravens to intelligently dissect before eating. To the end. 393 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 3: They're like a tourist at a beach restaurant picking the 394 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 3: meat out of a crab. They're getting all the juicy 395 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 3: bits and not swallowing the hard parts. Of course, snakes 396 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 3: are a major predator of these lizards. Various species of 397 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 3: snakes prey on them, killing them either with venom or 398 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 3: with constriction, and then in all cases, swallowing them whole. Snakes, 399 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 3: like birds, do incur some risk by attempting to swallow 400 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 3: a horned lizard. Sometimes the horns rip them open from 401 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 3: the inside, and a crucial factor seems to be just 402 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 3: the relative sizes of the snake in the lizard. The 403 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 3: snake it's hungry, but it can't get too greedy. It 404 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 3: has to know its limits. And so I guess there 405 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 3: are cases where a snake might be sort of driven 406 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 3: near starvation and it's pushing the boundaries of like, is 407 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 3: this thing so big it's gonna kill me to eat it? 408 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 3: I'm gonna roll the dice. Now, that's not all the 409 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 3: potential predators of horned lizards, but I'm gonna come back 410 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 3: to one more major category in a minute when we 411 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 3: get to the blood squirting. So there's another interesting framework 412 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 3: that Sherbrook introduces in this chapter where he's talking about 413 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 3: the different levels of defense that a prey animal can 414 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 3: deploy when trying to survive against predators. And the three 415 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 3: layers of defense he talks about are first of all, 416 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 3: avoid being seen, second, avoid being caught, and third be 417 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 3: difficult to eat or appear dangerous to the predator. And 418 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 3: you could sort of paraphrase these as one hide, two, 419 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 3: run in three fight. Horned lizards are not very good 420 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 3: at number two. They're not very good at running away. 421 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 3: There are some exceptions, such as when facing off against 422 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 3: certain snakes venomous snakes like the diamondback rattle snake. Sometimes 423 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 3: in facing off against one of those, the lizard will 424 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 3: just run away, But in most cases it's not going 425 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 3: to be great at trying to outrun predators, and they've 426 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 3: got kind of short limbs and awkward movements. So mostly 427 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 3: horned lizards excel at number one and number three avoiding 428 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 3: being seen in the first place. And then if they 429 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 3: really if they're cornered and they're caught and they can't 430 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 3: hide anymore, they resist being eaten somehow by a combination 431 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 3: of morphological and behavioral defenses. So we'll look at number 432 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 3: one first, the hiding part. Horned lizards are masters of camouflage, 433 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 3: and Sherbrooke has an interesting side note about how we 434 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 3: often don't appreciate how effective a wild animal's camouflage actually 435 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 3: is because most people, you know, if you're not like 436 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 3: living out in the wilderness, most of the time you're 437 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 3: going to see any of these wild animals, it's in 438 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 3: some form of media that is designed to help you 439 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 3: see the animals, such as like a picture in a 440 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 3: book or foot in a documentary where the whole point 441 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 3: is that you're supposed to be able to see it, 442 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 3: And so this kind of we kind of underappreciate how 443 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 3: effective natural camouflage strategies are because if we were just 444 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 3: walking around in the environment, we likely might go right 445 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 3: by animals of this type and never see them, so 446 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 3: we wouldn't even know that we'd miss them. 447 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 2: That's a great point. 448 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so horned lizards are very good at hiding. 449 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 3: They hide themselves with a couple of strategies. They hide 450 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 3: by disrupting predator search routines for both shape and color, 451 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,719 Speaker 3: so their coloration tends to mimic the patterns of gravelly, 452 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 3: sandy or grassy grounds where they live, and the pigment 453 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 3: in their skin tends to match the color of the 454 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 3: local soil or whatever the background is. So, for example, 455 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 3: horned lizards that live in areas with redder soil will 456 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 3: be redder in color and so forth. Also in the 457 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 3: domain of color, they have patterns of what is called 458 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 3: disruptive color. This is found in many animals where varied 459 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 3: color patterns make it harder to pick out the outline 460 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 3: of an object against the background. This is also one 461 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 3: of the main principles behind human tactical camouflage. Some of 462 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 3: their hiding strategies are more obvious, like in some cases, 463 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 3: if there is a predator around, they might increase their 464 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 3: hiddenness by ducking underneath something so they can run under 465 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 3: a shrub or a rock or some of their groundcover. 466 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 3: But another thing they do often is if a predator 467 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 3: is nearby, they can flatten their bodies against the ground. 468 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 3: And this especially helps protect against, say, the visual detection 469 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 3: by birds, because this flattening prevents them from casting a shadow, 470 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 3: which if they did cast a shadow, would reveal their outline. 471 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 3: So if you can't see the outline of the creature, 472 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 3: it disrupts the predator's shape recognition. And the horned lizard's 473 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 3: lateral body spikes also help disrupt shape recognition by interfering 474 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 3: with the casting of a shadow. Now, in order for 475 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 3: a lot of these hiding strategies to be effective, the 476 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 3: horned lizard needs to remain motionless, which it does much 477 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 3: of the time. It pays to be sedentary if you're 478 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 3: one of these buddies, and it also helps that you 479 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 3: know as ectotherms, they need to spend a lot of 480 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 3: time absorbing sun anyway. Because their body temperature is dependent 481 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 3: on the surrounding environment, they don't generate their own body 482 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 3: heat through metabolism. Now, one defensive strategy that Sherbrook talks about, 483 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 3: which in a kind of embarrassing way ping done some 484 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 3: like video game playing styles I'm familiar with, is that 485 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 3: if startled, the horned lizard will often run as fast 486 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 3: as it can a short distance and then suddenly stop 487 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 3: and freeze. Why would it do that? That doesn't seem 488 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 3: to make a lot of sense, but it does actually 489 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 3: if you read it explained. So the lizard usually can't 490 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 3: run very fast, very far, but the main purpose of 491 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 3: it seems to be too quickly re enter stealth mode, 492 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 3: so you run a short distance and then freeze in 493 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 3: order to once again blend into the surroundings and hopefully 494 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 3: disappear from the predator's vision. This makes me think of 495 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 3: various I don't know, like Batman video games and stuff 496 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 3: where the bad guys see you and this like oh oh, 497 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 3: I need to run to the opposite side of the 498 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 3: room and hide, and then they'll all be like where'd 499 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 3: he go? 500 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 2: Or like a metal gear game where you just immediately 501 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: put a box over your body and then they're looking 502 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 2: right at you and maybe they won't see it. 503 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 3: Huh. 504 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 2: But you know, I have to say I only have 505 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 2: human eyes. I don't have the eyes of an eagle, 506 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 2: and they're not even great human eyes. But you know, 507 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 2: there have been times where I've been watching an animal 508 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 2: in the wild that is really good at its camouflage, 509 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 2: and you know, either it will be the situation of 510 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 2: looking right at it and not seeing it until there 511 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: is movement, or the reverse kind of looking at it 512 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,959 Speaker 2: in movement and then the second it stops, I cannot 513 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 2: see it anymore. I know it is there, but I 514 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 2: cannot actually see it. It's just based on the memory 515 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 2: of what just happened. 516 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 3: So yeah, that's how it works for predators also. I 517 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 3: mean it's again we underappreciate how effective camouflage can be 518 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 3: because we're so trained on this, like media that shows 519 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 3: you this is where it is, look right here. But okay, 520 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 3: let's say all of that has failed. Your invisibility camouflage 521 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 3: stealth mode has failed. You're a horned lizard and you're 522 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 3: cornered by a predator that definitely knows you're here. Here, 523 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 3: we get to the active defense strategies where you try 524 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,959 Speaker 3: to make yourself look difficult to eat or dangerous to 525 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 3: the predator. Now, the range of behaviors described in Sherbrook's 526 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 3: book here are surprisingly diverse. I wouldn't have expected this 527 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 3: many different things to be on the record, but Sherbrook 528 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 3: lists a number of them, just in respond to the 529 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 3: presence of humans. To read from a paragraph here quote 530 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 3: in an almost comic antic one horned lizard raised itself 531 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 3: high on all four legs, lowered its head, and in 532 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 3: a series of hops, approached its tormentor like a charging bull. 533 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 3: On another occasion, a horned lizard charged and bit a 534 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 3: person's boot. Normally they do not bite when captured by hand, 535 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 3: but some struggle an attempt to thrust their horns into 536 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 3: the flesh of their captor. Now that's kind of interesting, though. 537 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 3: There are also reports that a good number of these lizards, 538 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 3: if picked up and handled and sometimes rubbed or stroked, 539 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 3: they will become immobile. And this could be some kind 540 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 3: of death feigning strategy as seen in some prey animals. 541 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 3: You might wonder, like, why would it be advantageous for 542 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 3: a prey animal to pretend to be dead when it 543 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 3: has been gripped by a predator. There could be different explanations, 544 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 3: but I think it's generally understood that if you pretend 545 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 3: to be dead, you can wait for the predator to 546 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 3: relax its grip focus in order to have a moment 547 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:08,479 Speaker 3: to escape other defensive behaviors. When cornered, sometimes a horned 548 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 3: lizard will inflate its body, going to puffer fish mode. 549 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 3: This will certainly make it look harder to swallow, and 550 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 3: maybe actually be harder to swallow. Remember, predators can die 551 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 3: from eating a horned lizard that is too big, so 552 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 3: you want the predator to be wondering if you are over. 553 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 2: The line look more difficult to eat. 554 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 3: Another strategy is the backshield thing I talked about earlier. 555 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 3: So you can sometimes flatten your back into a round 556 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 3: shield and then tilt and orient your back towards the predator. 557 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 3: This makes you look big, but also makes you look 558 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 3: difficult to eat. But apparently in other cases they'll do 559 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 3: the opposite. They'll quickly just turn and face a predator 560 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 3: head on. Sometimes they hiss like a snake. This could 561 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 3: be a signal to convey danger and aggression. Sometimes they'll 562 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 3: kind of vibrate their tails. Now there's some other predator 563 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 3: defense strategy stuff that we might come back to in 564 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 3: part two. But I want to get to the blood 565 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 3: squirting here because this is the main event for me. 566 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 3: Sometimes when a horned lizard is threatened, it will blast 567 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 3: a jet of its own blood out of its eyes 568 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 3: toward the attacker. Now, again, Rob, I think you mentioned 569 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 3: this earlier. Not all horned lizard species have been observed 570 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 3: to do this. At the time of Sherbrook's book, he 571 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 3: did say that most species were known to be blood squirters, 572 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 3: the majority, where I think maybe there might be more 573 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 3: different species identified now, so it might not be the 574 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 3: majority at this point. 575 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 2: I believe that's the case, but we can look again 576 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 2: at that data before we come back with part two 577 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 2: and clarify if we need to. 578 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 3: Okay, well, certainly some species do this, now, they don't 579 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 3: do it every time they're threatened. It seems like a 580 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 3: fairly specialized behavior. Sherbrook says that among two species, Texas 581 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 3: horned lizards and regal horned lizards, blood jetting happened during 582 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 3: four to six percent of human captures. So that's not 583 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 3: most of the time. You know, it's like one in 584 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 3: twenty times. It sounds nuts. So it was indeed sometimes 585 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 3: believed to be a myth, but it is real. So 586 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 3: Sherbroch writes that, you know, if a lizard is about 587 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 3: to squirt blood out of its eyes, you're going to 588 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 3: see this. In preparation, the lizard arches its back and 589 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 3: it closes its eyes, and the lids around the eyes 590 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 3: become visibly swollen, like you can see that something is 591 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 3: building up there. And then suddenly a thin stream of 592 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 3: blood jets out of one or both eyes, and it 593 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 3: can be shot in either direction, forwards or backwards. This 594 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 3: blood spray can reach a distance of about six feet, 595 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 3: and the jet lasts for about one second per blast, 596 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 3: though the lizard can usually do it again if the 597 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 3: threat persists, so it's not just like one and done. 598 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 3: You can blast more than once six feet. 599 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 2: That is crazy considering the size of these creatures. 600 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 3: They're a little things, aren't they. Yeah. So does the 601 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 3: lizard lose a lot of blood from this? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, 602 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 3: it does, but it usually recovers if it escapes the situation, 603 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 3: so it's not like a lethal amount of blood loss, 604 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 3: but it it does lose a serious amount. 605 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,280 Speaker 2: Better than losing all the blood and the body as well. 606 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 3: That's right, so research has shown that the horned lizards 607 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 3: are able to do this via a mechanism that rapidly 608 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 3: increases blood pressure in chambers within the head. So the 609 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 3: way it works is that blood flows into the head 610 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 3: via the arteries, but then the lizards have a set 611 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 3: of muscles that they can use to squeeze closed the veins, 612 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 3: leading blood back out of the head. So when they 613 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 3: squeeze these muscles, blood flows into the head but not out, 614 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 3: and excess build up of blood flows into the ocular sinuses. 615 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 3: These are voids within the facial tissue around the eye socket, 616 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 3: and this manifest tests externally as bulging eyelids. Eventually, the 617 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 3: pressure becomes so great that the capillaries in these sinuses burst. 618 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 3: Blood is rapidly released and escapes through the easiest route 619 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 3: to the surface, through the eye and the tear duct, 620 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 3: and here you get the blood jets. Now there's a 621 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 3: sentence in Sherbrook's book that I love. There's like, oh, 622 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 3: there's such a story behind this, and no description of 623 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 3: what this means. Sherbroke writes, quote, humans sampling the blood 624 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 3: sprayed do not taste anything strongly objectionable. 625 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 2: That statement raises a number of questions, who methodology past 626 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 2: history with the sampling of lizard blood? Yeah, and I 627 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 2: mean one of the key questions though that arises from this, 628 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 2: is of course that in a lot of the literature 629 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 2: the reason cited for the blood spurning is that there 630 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 2: is something objectionable about the taste or sensation of this 631 00:35:59,239 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 2: creature's blood. 632 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 3: Well, I think there is, but maybe not perceptible to humans. 633 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,240 Speaker 3: So what is the point of the blood squirting? Well, 634 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 3: according to Sherbrook, a clue comes down to the relatively 635 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 3: selective employment of this defensive behavior against only certain predators 636 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 3: we mentioned it only happens in like four to six 637 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 3: percent of human captures. The lizard usually does not squirt 638 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 3: blood out of its eyes at other predators we've mentioned earlier, 639 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 3: like birds, leopard lizards, snakes. So who do they use 640 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 3: it against? Dogs? Wild cannids such as the coyote and 641 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 3: the kit fox or Vulpius Macrotis any type of dog 642 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 3: attacks a horned lizard, Here come the blood jets. When 643 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 3: any of the sprayed blood gets into a dog's mouth. 644 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,280 Speaker 3: Sherbrooke says that you can usually see the dog showing 645 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 3: obvious displeasure with the taste, like shaking its head back 646 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 3: and forth, sometimes chewing or wiping its mouth on grass, 647 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,720 Speaker 3: as if trying to get the taste out of its mouth. 648 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 2: Oh wow, no, this yeah, this makes a lot of 649 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 2: sense then. I mean, we've talked before about how dogs 650 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 2: their sense of smell and therefore their sense of taste 651 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 2: is just in a realm, so far beyond human levels 652 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 2: of taste and scent that it's just a different, a 653 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,240 Speaker 2: different universe. 654 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 3: Sherbroke writes, quote, clearly there is some chemical component of 655 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 3: the blood that causes dog family members goosetatory or taste distress. 656 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 3: The blood never harms them, but it certainly suggests to 657 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 3: them that a different meal would be more palatable. How 658 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 3: fortunate for the horned lizard to be able to deliver 659 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 3: that message before being severely bitten and tasted. And Sherberke 660 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,240 Speaker 3: notes that there are some other lizards, not horned lizards, 661 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 3: that have occasionally been seen bleeding lightly from the eyes 662 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:55,919 Speaker 3: under stress, and he speculates that perhaps something like this 663 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 3: was an early stage in the evolution of this more 664 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 3: elaborate defensive measure, maybe slight bleeding from the eyes under stress, 665 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 3: and then horned lizard ancestors have blood that is for 666 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:13,240 Speaker 3: some reason distasteful to canids. Sometimes that gross blood makes 667 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 3: a predation attempt stop, and then there's evolutionary incentive to 668 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 3: bleed more and more of it preemptively to make the 669 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 3: predation attempt stop earlier and earlier before major injury has occurred, 670 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 3: until you end up with six foot jets of eyeblood. 671 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 2: It's like really aggressive free samples in the mall food court. Yes, 672 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 2: but instead of trying to bring certain customers in, you're 673 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 2: trying to convince them this food is not for you. Here, 674 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 2: have a taste. 675 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 3: But so why is this blood apparently distasteful to canids 676 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 3: to dogs? 677 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 2: So it seems like the main hypothesis, based on what 678 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 2: I was looking at, is that it comes down to 679 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 2: what these creatures eat. What the horned lizards eat, they 680 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 2: eat copious amounts of ants, and those ants contain formic acid. 681 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 2: So apparently previously researchers thought that the acidity was more 682 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 2: of a glandular product, but now we understand that it's 683 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 2: the blood, Like that's what's shooting out. There's nothing being 684 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 2: added to the blood. The blood in and of itself 685 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 2: is supposed to have this formic acid quality. 686 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 3: That's right. Sherbrooke makes this point in the book that 687 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 3: it was once thought that maybe there were glands around 688 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 3: the eyes adding something to the blood before it gets 689 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,879 Speaker 3: blasted out, but they said no, there's no evidence of that. 690 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 2: Interesting side note, I've already mentioned another big time ant consumer, 691 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 2: the giant anteater of Central and South America. That is 692 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 2: a creature that cannot produce its own stomach acid apparently, 693 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 2: and instead depends on formic acid from its prey. 694 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 3: Wow. 695 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't know that. Another interesting fact concerning horned 696 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 2: lizards here, they apparently don't eat fire ants. Fire Ants are, 697 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 2: of course invasive ants from South America beyond the southern 698 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 2: limits of the horned lizard's range. They often they're really 699 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 2: more of a threat to horned lizards because they can 700 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 2: push out native ant species that the horned lizard depends on, 701 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 2: while also provoking human inhabitants to deploy anti ant measures 702 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 2: that you know, just don't discriminate. So all of this 703 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 2: plays a role in the habitat loss and decline of 704 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 2: various horned lizard species. 705 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd read that as well. Many horned lizard populations 706 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 3: throughout the throughout North America have been in decline in 707 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 3: recent decades, and yeah, fire ants are implicated as part 708 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,240 Speaker 3: of the picture for why that's happening. 709 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 2: A related question that I didn't even think to ask 710 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 2: what I just saw come up when I was searching 711 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 2: around for answers on this, people ask, well, can't we 712 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 2: get some ant eaters and some armadillos in on these 713 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,399 Speaker 2: fire ants, as these creatures do eat fire ants. And 714 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 2: the answer there is no, not really, because like an 715 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 2: ant eater eats a lot of ants, but it has 716 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 2: to go in like in quick bursts, because it's not 717 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 2: immune to the bites, and so it's got to get in, like, 718 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 2: you know, eat a bunch of ants and get out 719 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 2: of there before it gets too painful. And they're not 720 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 2: going to finish off a colony, like they're not going 721 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 2: to eat it down to the queen, you know, they're 722 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:09,399 Speaker 2: not going to eat it down to the last ant. 723 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 2: It's like a devastating raid. But then they have to 724 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 2: move on, so it's not going to like wipe out 725 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 2: populations necessarily. M But yes, it seems like the consumption 726 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 2: of ants is key, and I think we're gonna go 727 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 2: ahead and close out this episode, but we're gonna be 728 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,840 Speaker 2: back on Thursday. We're gonna get into various other angles 729 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 2: concerning the horned lizard and also some of the traditions 730 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,279 Speaker 2: surrounding it, including again I teased out some Navajo traditions, 731 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 2: and there there is one story we're going to come 732 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 2: back to about the Holy Toad who eats ants that 733 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 2: give him power. Whoa which is correct? The research they're 734 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,240 Speaker 2: looking at here absolutely correct. 735 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 3: I can't wait. 736 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 2: All right, Well, we're going to go and close it out, 737 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 2: but in the meantime, go ahead and write in with 738 00:41:55,719 --> 00:42:01,399 Speaker 2: your observations concerning the horned lizard. You've seen them out 739 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 2: in the wild, you've studied them, write in. We'd love 740 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,799 Speaker 2: to hear from you. We'll come back with part two 741 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 2: on Thursday. A reminder that that's when our core episodes 742 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 2: published Tuesdays and Thursdays every week and the Stuff to 743 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind podcast feed, where we are primarily a 744 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 2: science and culture podcast. We do a short form episode 745 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 2: on Wednesdays, and on Fridays we do Weird House Cinema. 746 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 2: That's when we set aside most of our serious concerns 747 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 2: to just talk about a weird film. 748 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer jj Posway. If 749 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 3: you would like to get in touch with us with 750 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 3: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest topic 751 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 3: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 752 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 3: email us at contact stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 753 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 754 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 755 00:42:53,120 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.