1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for tune into Tech Stuff. If you don't recognize 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: my voice, my name is Oz Valoshin, and I'm here 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: because the inimitable Jonathan Strickland has passed a baton to 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: Cara Price and myself to host Tech Stuff. The show 5 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: will remain your home for all things tech, and all 6 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: the old episodes will remain available in this feed. Thanks 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: for listening. 8 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 2: Guess what, Oz? 9 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: What's that? Man? Gush? 10 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 2: Well, I am. 11 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 3: Super excited to do this crossover episode with you, but 12 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 3: before we get. 13 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: Started, maybe we should tell everyone what's. 14 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: Going on here one hundred percent. 15 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 2: So we are both podcast hosts. 16 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 3: I do part time Genius, a ridiculous general knowledge show 17 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 3: that tackles some of the world's most important questions. I'd 18 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 3: have to say things like what's the story behind dogs 19 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 3: playing poker? Why does Liechtenstein export so many false teeth? 20 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 3: And you are the brand new co host of Tech Stuff. 21 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 3: It is a wildly popular show about the latest technology 22 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 3: and what it says about us as humans. But I 23 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 3: feel like we should let people in on a little secret. 24 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 3: We are also busy partners. A few years ago we 25 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 3: founded the company behind both our shows, which is called Kaleidoscope. 26 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 4: That's right. 27 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: We spend an awful lot of time together, but never 28 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: recording a podcast together until now, which is kind of crazy. 29 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 2: That is true. 30 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: So today we're producing a little bit of a network 31 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: effect where we're doing a crossover between two Kaleidoscope shows, 32 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: part Time Genius and tech stuff. 33 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm so excited about this. 34 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 3: And you know, we were having I think it was 35 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 3: burgers and drinks with our palkate and she came up 36 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 3: with a perfect topic for us both, which is luddites. 37 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 2: So what do you know about luddites. 38 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about luddites. I know, I 39 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: hear that word all the time, and I associate it 40 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: with England in the past and today with people who 41 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: are kind of branded as technophobes. 42 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 43 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 3: I mean, I feel like we refer to my mom 44 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 3: as a Luddite a lot and half for a while, 45 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 3: because you know when she told my dad like, oh, 46 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 3: I need to check my email, and what that meant 47 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 3: was he had to go into her email print out 48 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 3: a stack of email. 49 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 4: Print it. I love it. 50 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: That's that's real Bussif story, and that's the Atco vibes. 51 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: I love it. 52 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: She is kind of the CEO or family. 53 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 3: But uh, you know, so, I feel like most people 54 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 3: probably think ludite means anti tech or being against adopting 55 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 3: new technologies, but weirdly, that couldn't be further from the 56 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 3: historical truth. So the best description is that the Luddites 57 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 3: were a worker's rights movement and these guys were your countrymen, specifically. 58 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 2: As your countrymen. 59 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 3: So they loosely formed in the early eighteen hundreds in 60 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 3: northern towns and villages in England. And at the time 61 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 3: the wool and textile trade was the most important industry 62 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 3: in Britain. 63 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: It employed almost. 64 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: A million people, which is remarkable, right, and and textile 65 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 3: weavers were the largest single group of workers in the 66 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 3: country for over a century. People were really well employed, 67 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 3: and some of them even worked from home. And something 68 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,839 Speaker 3: cropped up called the gig mill, And this is where 69 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 3: things get icy, right. 70 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 2: The gig mill was a wooden. 71 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 3: Machine that napped up the wool or the cotton into 72 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: a softened fabric, and these mills started cropping up with 73 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 3: remarkable pace. So basically, entrepreneurs use these mills to build 74 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: factories and put hundreds of thousands of workers out of work. 75 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 3: They brought in unpaid child labor, and they pushed families 76 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 3: to the brink of starvation. 77 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: Well, I am having an association here, which is a 78 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: William Blake poem and also Britain's most famous him Jerusalem, 79 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: which the choruses, And did those feet in ancient times 80 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: walk upon England's mountains green? And did the countenance shine 81 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: forth upon these dark satanic mills? 82 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: Dark satanic mills, dark satanic mills. 83 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, William Blake took up his pen, but I think 84 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: others took up more aggressive mesitch forks. 85 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so you're exactly right. 86 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 3: Like the workers or organized and bands of dozens of 87 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 3: them would go out at night. They covered their faces 88 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 3: with coal or with mass and they were armed with 89 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 3: blacksmith hammers, and they'd actually break the machines right and weirdly, 90 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 3: each group leader went by the same name, General Lud. 91 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 3: Now the attacks were often prefaced with a note or 92 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 3: a letter pinned to the door of the mill with 93 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 3: a warning, if you do not pull down your frames, 94 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 3: my company will visit and destroy them, signed Ned Lud. 95 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: So this is the we are anonymous, we are legion 96 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century. 97 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 3: Completely who was Ned Lud though, so ned Lud was 98 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 3: not a real person. He was a fictional character based 99 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 3: on a myth about an apprentice who smashed his boss's 100 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 3: device and then fled to Sherwood Forest, which I'm sure 101 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: most of our listeners know from Robinhood. It's the wooded 102 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 3: area where all those merry men took refuge, and it's 103 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 3: not a coincidence that ned Lud was also set to 104 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 3: reside there, considering the spirit of you know, righteous rebelliousness. Anyway, 105 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 3: the movement grew pretty quickly, and before long there were 106 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 3: about fifty machines a week that were getting destroyed, and 107 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 3: the raids definitely got bigger and weirder as they went along. 108 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 3: So many of these Ludites would pull stockings over their 109 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 3: faces during the night raids. One account talked about a 110 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 3: dude wearing a bloody mask made from a calf skin 111 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 3: to disguise himself. Some of the Ludites wore costumes, and 112 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 3: a few of the largest bands were led by men 113 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 3: in drag who called themselves General Lud's wife. 114 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: Isn't that incredible? 115 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 4: Incredible? 116 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 3: So there are in fact famous illustrations from the time 117 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 3: of Ludite leader's in dress with factories burning in their background. 118 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 3: Supposedly it was an homage to the women who had 119 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 3: also lost their jobs of yarn spinning to automation, so 120 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 3: it was kind of in solidarity with them. Anyway, words 121 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 3: spread about the machine breakers and their cause became really 122 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 3: really popular. As you can imagine, basically everyone knew who 123 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 3: was involved, and sometimes these raids even began occurring in 124 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 3: full daylight, but no one talked, like the villagers did 125 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 3: not snitch. 126 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: Wow, that's amazing. So it was like almost like an 127 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: open secret who was involved. 128 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, but they were still pretty cautious. So the Luddites 129 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 3: had all these codes and handshakes to protect themselves. Like 130 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 3: if you were going to a meeting at a local pub, 131 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 3: there was a process, right, So first you'd make eye 132 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 3: contact with a Luddite guard who was posted across the room. 133 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 2: Then you'd make a coded hand gesture. 134 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 3: The guard would sort of keep a straight face, keep 135 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 3: their cool, they might even look bored, take a drink, 136 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 3: but then they would suddenly return the gesture. And then 137 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 3: you'd actually head into the back, maybe up a narrow 138 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 3: staircase to a smaller room, and then you'd have to 139 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 3: say a password, and the password was win work, So 140 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 3: you'd say that to a guard and then finally you'd 141 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 3: get into the secret meeting. 142 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: That's incredible. So it's almost like a Masonic vibe as well. 143 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 1: But what I mean how they looked upon by the 144 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: broader British society and how much damage did they do? 145 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 3: I mean they did a lot of damage. Account from 146 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 3: the time. This is from the Leeds Mercury. It reported 147 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 3: that since the commencement of the Luddite system in Nottingham, 148 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 3: forty two lace frames and five hundred and forty four 149 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: plain silk and cotton stalking frames have been destroyed and 150 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 3: that amount to about thirteen four hundred pounds in eighteen 151 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 3: eleven prices or about sixteen million dollars today. 152 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 4: Wow. 153 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: Well, no wonder they were catching Peel's attention. 154 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the Luodites in the early nineteenth century weren't 155 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 3: so much anti technology as really they wanted a humane 156 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 3: adaptation of technology, and that's I think where some of 157 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 3: this distinction comes in. 158 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: Well, I'm definitely fascinated by everything you're saying, mangsh But 159 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: I guess if we really want to dig into the 160 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: understanding of the Luddite movement, there's someone we should talk 161 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: to Brian Merchant, who wrote an incredible four hundred page 162 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: book about it. It's called Blood in the Machine, The 163 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: Origins of the Rebellion against Big Tech, and lucky for us, 164 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: we managed to get him on the line to talk 165 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: about it. Let's dive in. I know, Manga Shonn'm very 166 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: excited to talk about the book, not in the Machine, 167 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: But maybe a good place to start would be why 168 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: did you decide to spend so much time writing a 169 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: four hundred page book about the Luddites. 170 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a couple different answers to that, and the 171 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 4: first is that I had sort of spent a long 172 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 4: time as a tech journalist. So you hear it the 173 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 4: term lutite, it's this derogatory term, and I had just 174 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 4: kind of integrated this term ledite. Oh, someone who hates technology, 175 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 4: someone who gets angry when they have to use a 176 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 4: new technology, make them want to smash their phone, or 177 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 4: you know, just against progress. And so the minute that 178 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 4: it became clear to me that that was in no 179 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 4: way the truth, sort of like all of my you know, 180 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 4: journalistic instincts kicked in and there's nothing that a journalist 181 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 4: likes to do more than to overturn an assumption. Right, 182 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 4: So like I spent I spent like the nerdiest labor 183 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 4: day weekend of my life, just like reading academic journal 184 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 4: articles about the Ledites. And I was a reporter for 185 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 4: Vice at the time, so I wrote this piece called 186 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 4: You've got the Luddites all wrong, because it was clear 187 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 4: to me that they're not backwards, they're not anti progress, 188 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 4: they're anti bosses using technology to sort of exploit them, 189 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 4: to grind their livelihoods away. And so like that sort 190 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 4: of key insight stuck with me because that was over 191 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 4: ten years ago. So it was really at the same 192 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 4: time that we started seeing more of the fallout from 193 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 4: the labor forces at Amazon, the warehouse workers who were 194 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 4: working and often really degrading and inhuman conditions. When it 195 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 4: started to be clear that Uber, after initially seeming to 196 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 4: be this great thing, was starting to squeeze its drivers, 197 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 4: and we had stories about drivers who couldn't afford rent 198 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 4: were sleeping in their cars. So this was all before 199 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 4: the AI boom and the fear that AI was going 200 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 4: to replace our jobs. But there's all these examples of 201 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 4: ways that tech was really being used to hurt people, 202 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 4: or it was having a deleterious effect on their lives. 203 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 4: And then that kind of collided with this thinking about 204 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 4: the Luddites, and I said, maybe this is a good 205 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 4: lens to sort of look at these emergent resistances to technology. 206 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 4: Maybe we should understand more about why people have real issues, 207 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 4: real complaints about some of the forces that technology is 208 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 4: unleashing on their lives. 209 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 3: I also love that though you figured this out over 210 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 3: labor Day, right. 211 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 2: There's something so funny about that. But take us into this. 212 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: Can you situate us in the history event year. 213 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 3: I think it's the eighteen hundreds, Yorkshire, Northern Nish, England. 214 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 3: Can you paint a picture of the times that we're 215 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 3: talking about. 216 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 4: So this is the very beginning days of the Industrial Revolution. 217 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 4: It's not yet quite at the point where if you 218 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 4: just kind of close your eyes and you say, like 219 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 4: peak Industrial Revolution and you're imagining like the billowing smoke 220 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 4: and like the coughing children working in factories. We're not 221 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 4: quite there yet. That is beginning to take shape. So 222 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 4: there have been a number of mechanical innovations. So you 223 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 4: had like the steam engine that's allowing for new sources 224 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 4: of power. You have water power coming onto the scene, 225 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 4: and then you have basically all of these inventions that 226 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 4: allows the work of weaving a garment to be done 227 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 4: by one person instead of say six, so it can 228 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 4: automate this task to a great degree. You still need 229 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 4: a worker to run the machine to make sure it's 230 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 4: not screwing up, but it is speeding up the process 231 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 4: by which you can produce goods. And industrialists and factory 232 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 4: owners realize that they can start buying these machines, machines 233 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 4: like the gig mill, the shearing frame that automate different 234 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 4: parts of the clothing trade, and that they can organize 235 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 4: them into an early sort of version of the factory. 236 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 4: This is like the late seventeen nineties early eighteen hundreds 237 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 4: that I'm talking about here. It's in the midlands of England, 238 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 4: around Nottingham and Yorkshire, and so you have workers who 239 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 4: are used to working at home with their families running 240 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 4: the machine. They're not anti technology, they're really good technicians 241 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 4: technologists in their homes, but they start to see the 242 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 4: emergence of the factory. 243 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: Who who are the innovators behind these kind of proto factories. 244 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 4: The most famous is there's a man named Richard Arkwright 245 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 4: and he's generally considered to be the father of the factory. 246 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 4: You can go in these buildings today and kind of 247 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 4: see for yourself really awful working conditions. There's no ventilation. 248 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 4: There are multiple stories, up to six stories, so it's noisy, 249 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 4: and it's just sort of churning out the yarn, right, 250 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 4: that used to be spun by hand. And so Arkwright 251 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 4: really kind of helped automate away the first sort of 252 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 4: rung of cloth workers. Arkright figured out a way to 253 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 4: sort of make an astonishing volume of yarn. 254 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 2: Right. 255 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 4: I opened the book, in fact, with one of the 256 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 4: inventors who will later invent the power loom pouring like 257 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 4: this factory, and they're all ruminating all and is sort 258 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 4: of contemporary or saying, well, it's one thing to make yarn, 259 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 4: that was just that's just women's work. It's another altogether 260 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 4: to automate like weaving a finished garment, like that's skilled labor, 261 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 4: that'll never happen. And then he sets about trying to 262 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 4: do it. 263 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: I think you called arc Right the first startup founder 264 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: to launch a unicorn company, which I love. But how 265 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: did the Luddites start to fight back? I mean, what 266 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: kind of early industrial action did they take. 267 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 4: So basically arc rights blueprint spreads around the country. People 268 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 4: recognize that you can sort of concentrate labor, and before 269 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 4: long this method of industrialization starts to lower prices and 270 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 4: the artisan workers, the skilled workers, who are still the 271 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 4: largest industrial base of worker in England at the time, 272 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 4: England was a cloth producing country. It exports it all 273 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 4: over the world, so you have more workers doing this 274 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 4: than ever. And they start to see this work basically 275 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 4: being transferred from that domestic system where they're working at 276 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 4: home into the factory system where they're either going to 277 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 4: have to compete on price they have to start working 278 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 4: for less, or they have to go work in the 279 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 4: factory where it's just a very dehumanizing and often dangerous 280 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 4: place to work. So they start to form different modes 281 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 4: of resistance. And first they go to Parliament and say, hey, 282 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 4: these industrialists are using machinery that violate these number of 283 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 4: rules on the books, like we have laws that say 284 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 4: how long you have to be an apprentice for we 285 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 4: have laws that say how many threads have to go 286 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 4: into a certain garment for it to be sold on 287 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 4: the market. And they're just laughed out of Parliament time 288 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 4: and time again saying all we want is a minimum wage, 289 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 4: or maybe we could figure out a way to get 290 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 4: attacks on the output that they're making that can sort 291 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 4: of for social benefits, because they're just sort of tearing 292 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 4: up the social contract. And this isn't the twenty first century. 293 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 4: We don't have a globalized economy. I can't go get 294 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 4: a job at Starbucks. Pretty much. Weaving is the only 295 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 4: thing I know how to do. So you throw us 296 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 4: a bone. Parliament does not, so they box them out 297 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 4: for like ten years of fighting, and we get to 298 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 4: eighteen o nine they tear up all the rules altogether. 299 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 4: Now it's the working class pitted against these new industrialists. 300 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 4: It's illegal toform unions. There's no recourse at all, there's 301 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 4: no democracy. So you have a really volatile situation. And 302 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 4: finally there's the crop failure and then some intense tariffs 303 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 4: placed on exports during the Napoleonic War, and people are 304 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 4: quite literally going without food. The Luddites would often say, 305 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 4: you know, the factory owners have stolen our bread, because again, 306 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 4: to them, it didn't look like the complex machinations of 307 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 4: a globalized economy. It looked like they had a job, 308 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 4: they got a fair wage, and then one day somebody 309 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 4: built a giant factory started selling crappier stuff, taking away 310 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 4: their market share, and now that guy had money. It 311 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 4: didn't look complicated to them. It looked like theft, and 312 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 4: it felt like theft. So it just all goes up 313 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 4: in flames. The Leddites emerged. They say, you've left us 314 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 4: no choice. They organized this gorilla rebellion to fight back. 315 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 2: Coming up, we meet some of the main characters in 316 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: this Ledite movement. Stick with us. 317 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 3: And welcome back to the crossover between part time genius 318 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 3: and tech stuff, where we're talking to the wonderful author 319 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 3: Brian Merchant. So could you tell us a little bit 320 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 3: about George Meller and his role in. 321 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 4: All of this. Yeah, So, George Meller is the Ledite 322 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 4: that I focus on the most in the book, and 323 00:16:55,080 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 4: we sort of follow his reluctance to take up hammer, 324 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 4: so to speak. But he's watching the first sort of 325 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 4: uprising happen, which happens in Nottingham. What they do is 326 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 4: they first send letters to the owners of the obnoxious 327 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 4: machines and they say, your factory has three hundred power 328 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 4: looms and it's putting twelve hundred of our brothers out 329 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 4: of work. Take down those machines, or you'll get a 330 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 4: visit from ned Lud's army. Ned Lud is this apocryphal 331 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 4: figure who was supposed to have sort of rebelled against 332 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,239 Speaker 4: his master, but they use him as this avatar. They 333 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 4: sign these letters ned Lud, you know you're going to 334 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 4: get a visit from ned Lud's army. And then sure 335 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 4: enough a lot of factory owners do. Ned Lud's army 336 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 4: shows up with hammers in hand. They hold up an 337 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 4: overseer at gunpoint, and they sneak into the factory and 338 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 4: they smash the machines, but only the machines that are 339 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 4: taking jobs and tearing up the social contract, just those 340 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 4: that are sort of transferring wealth into the hands of 341 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 4: the factory owner away from them. So it was a 342 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 4: very pointed tactic, and people love them. At the time. 343 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 4: People cheered the Luddites in the street. Magistrates would come 344 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 4: out and just kind of watch it happen. The factory 345 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 4: owners would be going, what are you gonna do something 346 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 4: about this, buddy, and they and they're like, well, they 347 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 4: kind of have a point. So at first the Luddites 348 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 4: were super popular. They were winning. They won concessions. A 349 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 4: bunch of factory owners said, I don't want any part 350 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 4: of this. Just you know, we'll raise the prices again, 351 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 4: we'll stop using these machines. You guys win. So for 352 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 4: at least six months or so, it worked to some extent. 353 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 4: And so George Meller is up in the West Riding, 354 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 4: which is these days a few hours north of Nottingham, 355 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 4: and he's reading about this in the newspaper and he's saying, 356 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 4: these guys have it right. This is what we should 357 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 4: be doing locally, because prices are flowing here right in 358 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 4: our town, in Huddersfield, which is the broader area that 359 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 4: George Miller and his cohort worked, and they had been 360 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 4: watching their wages go down, their coworkers literally starving, sometimes 361 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 4: quite desperately. So conditions were extremely dire. And in the book, 362 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 4: I'd chart George Miller's sort of ambivalence to full throated 363 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 4: embrace of this idea of Luddism, of becoming a Luddite, 364 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 4: and then he becomes the local sort of ned lud 365 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 4: or General Luod, leading other workers into battle against the 366 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 4: men that are quite literally causing them to starve. 367 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: One of these is William Horsfall, right. 368 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 4: Yes, William's Horsefall is one of the two most hated 369 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 4: factory owners in town, and in part because he was 370 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 4: just like he was so unabashed to the point where 371 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 4: you know, like as he would ride between his factories 372 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 4: into town, little children would up and taunt him and say, 373 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 4: you know, the Ludites are going to get you, and 374 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 4: he'll try to whip them with a horse whip. He 375 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 4: was just like a classic like sort of villain, twhirling villain, 376 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 4: like you really like these things that His quote was 377 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 4: like I look forward to the day when I like 378 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,719 Speaker 4: ride up to my saddle girths in Luddite blood. So 379 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 4: he's gone, wow, yeah, So he's taunting them. He's sort 380 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 4: of also turning his factory into a fortress, so he's 381 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 4: hiring mercenaries. So should the Luddites attack him, they you know, 382 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 4: he would gun them down before they got there, or 383 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 4: pour boiling oil on their heads. Things like we would 384 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 4: you know, associate with an assault on a castle in 385 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 4: medieval times or something. But it's an extreme case because 386 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 4: you got to remember that, like this is on the 387 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 4: front lines of just industrial capitalism. This is just taking 388 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 4: shape right now, and no one really knows what to 389 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 4: make of it. A lot of factory owners were like, ah, like, 390 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 4: I'm really torn, But if I don't buy automating machinery, 391 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 4: then my neighbor will and he'll buy more of it 392 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 4: and I won't be able to compete. Then in some 393 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 4: factory in er say I'm out of the game. I 394 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 4: don't want to contribute to the ruination of working men's lives. 395 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 4: I give up. I'm out. Others, you know, continue to 396 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 4: try to do it the old way and buy from 397 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 4: the the weavers who work at home, but it really 398 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 4: sort of ultimately everybody has to compete with men like horsefall. 399 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 3: So one of the things we were interested in was 400 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 3: like how the Loveites aren't just this group of people 401 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 3: with the mallets to break up these machines, but that 402 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 3: they were actually kind of savvy with pr as well. 403 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, is that something you could talk about. 404 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, of course they were savvy in a way that 405 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 4: we might recognize today. The entire sort of construction of 406 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 4: their movement and the way that they sort of chose 407 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 4: to go about building Luddism is really interesting, and it's decentralized. 408 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 4: It's almost meme based, right. So you have this figure 409 00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 4: ned lud who is made up almost certainly, and you 410 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 4: have a set of tactics that can be replicated or emulated. 411 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 4: Where you write a threatening letter, you make sure it's 412 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 4: like posted out on the door, so it's like written 413 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 4: up in the newspapers, or people see it and talk 414 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 4: about it, and it causes a stir and you build 415 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 4: up this sense that your movement could be anywhere. Right, 416 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,479 Speaker 4: that's not your real names aren't attached to it. These 417 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 4: letters are showing up anywhere, and it's it's replicable because 418 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 4: if you're in a completely different part of the country 419 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 4: and you have the similar grievances or ones that you 420 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 4: want to address through. This means you can just become 421 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 4: a lot ofite. Right. You don't have to have this 422 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 4: central planning committee. You can just gather your men in 423 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 4: a pub as they did at the time, and you 424 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 4: can write your own letters. And so that's exactly what happens. 425 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 4: It happens around Manchester and in different parts of Nottinghamshire 426 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 4: and all these different parts of the Midlands of England. 427 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 4: So they lot is them just kind of explodes. 428 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: I remember when I first moved to New York, it 429 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: was a time of occupyable street, and there's this like 430 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: very exciting feeling in the street downtown that like people 431 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: are taking the streets and that like the authorities didn't 432 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: know what to do. And then like a few days 433 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: past and the authorities decided to basically make their tactics 434 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: much more harsh, and then occupied wool Stream was over right. So, 435 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: and it makes me think a little bit about the 436 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: Battle of wolfitz Mill in your in your book. 437 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's an analogy I was thinking about a lot too, 438 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 4: and Black Lives matter, where you can basically take the 439 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 4: core ideas and the core grievances and then they mobilize 440 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 4: them because you didn't need sort of, you know, an 441 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 4: approval structure where you have like a hierarchy and leadership 442 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 4: that has to be consulted before you move on. But yeah, 443 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 4: as you said, the ludites run into real trouble when 444 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 4: a few things happen, and that's when the state makes 445 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 4: it a crime punishable by death to break a machine. 446 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 4: So now if you break a machine, you can be 447 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 4: strung up and you can be hung. And they've sent 448 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 4: tens of thousands of troops to occupy the districts where 449 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 4: ludism is going on, the state has it is the 450 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 4: largest domestic occupation military occupation of England in history, with 451 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 4: just at one point north of thirty thousand troops stationed 452 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 4: just to fight the Luteddites. And then you finally have 453 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 4: sort of this license given by the state for industrialists 454 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 4: to fight fire with fire. Basically until this point, the 455 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 4: Luddites are not violent except against machines. They are breaking 456 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 4: the machines as this labor tactic, as this strategy. But 457 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 4: with the law passed, with the army there and with 458 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 4: the mercenaries there, factory owners are basically given license to 459 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 4: shoot back. And so that's what really happens at this 460 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 4: famous Battle of ratholds Mill, when it's supposed to be 461 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 4: sort of the crowning achievement of the Luedtite movement. At 462 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 4: that point point, George Miller is helping to lead this effort. 463 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 4: He's gathered over one hundred Ledtites and they're just going 464 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 4: to go and attack Raffold's Mill, and little do they 465 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 4: know that this factory too, has been turned into a 466 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 4: military fortress. So they get there and guards open fire. 467 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 4: A bunch of Ledites are gunned down. They can't get inside. 468 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 4: They basically have to call a retreat, and somewhere between 469 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 4: three and four Ltedites are believed to have died, possibly 470 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 4: even many more. But it's a big disaster. And one 471 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 4: of George Miller's sort of close friends, somebody who he 472 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 4: had sort of talked into joining the Ledite movement, is 473 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 4: one of the men who was gunned down, a young apprentice, 474 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 4: and it kind of sends George Miller off the deep 475 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 4: end and he sort of you know, breaks bad as 476 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 4: it were, and he goes and assassinates the other factory owner, 477 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 4: William Horsefall in cold blood. 478 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: Fascinating. It was hostel basically thought that he'd won and 479 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: ventured out of the factory fortress and Mellow was lying 480 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: in wait or how did this happen? 481 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean basically Horsefall was he was never afraid, 482 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 4: he was never cowed. Really, so it really does speak 483 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 4: again this sort of this tech titan mindset where like 484 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 4: you have to say, you know, people be damned, I 485 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 4: don't care if they hate me, I don't care if 486 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 4: it's even dangerous for me to be in the public. 487 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 4: I'm going to sort of run rough shot over these 488 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 4: norms and standards and just show that you know, I 489 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,719 Speaker 4: believe what I'm doing is right, is justified, just kind 490 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 4: of like arc right back in the day. He had 491 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 4: also had to accept being despised by a lot of people. 492 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 4: So Horsefall was just he he had gone out and 493 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 4: was had a drink and was riding home. And they 494 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 4: knew the route that he took from the cloth market 495 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 4: where he would sell his goods back to his factory 496 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 4: and his home. So they yeah, they lay in wait, 497 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 4: and they ambushed him on the way and they gunned 498 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 4: him down. 499 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 2: Tell us about this trial with about horse Fall. 500 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 4: Yeah. So again another indicator of how sort of widely 501 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 4: liked the Luddites were is that for a long time, 502 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 4: well both liked and feared, you should say, they would 503 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 4: nobody would inform on them like they would. There would 504 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 4: be entire towns where most people, most working people would 505 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 4: know exactly who was involved right in a in a 506 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 4: factory raid, who smashed the factory owners automating machinery last night? 507 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 4: Who was behind this? No one would say a word. No, 508 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 4: the authorities could not get anybody to come forward. And 509 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 4: so it was the same with uh with the case 510 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 4: of Horsefall. When the authorities started making the rounds and 511 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 4: sort of pulling everybody in and interrogating them. Nobody, nobody 512 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 4: said anything for months and months and months. So it 513 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 4: finally took the authorities basically putting a huge sort of 514 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 4: bounty or promising a big payment for anybody who brought 515 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 4: in information. And then one of the mothers of one 516 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 4: of the men sort of George enlisted to go kind 517 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 4: of assassinate Horsefall, said you got to take this, and 518 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 4: then sort of went and told the magistrate that it 519 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 4: was George, and they and it finally flipped him. So 520 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 4: it took a long time before they could even get him, 521 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,479 Speaker 4: you know, you get him behind bars. But you know, 522 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:32,959 Speaker 4: once they did, I think it was understood that this 523 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,959 Speaker 4: would make a good sort of show trial, right, so 524 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 4: it was going to be George and a few of 525 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 4: his compadres who were believed to be there when they 526 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 4: when they assassinated Horsefall. But then it was going to 527 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 4: be another round of like over a dozen just ludites 528 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 4: who had have been involved in sort of the factory 529 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 4: strikes and breaking machines more broadly, so I think the 530 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 4: state understood that this was their best chance at making 531 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 4: this very unsympathetic. The trial is is packed it's it's 532 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 4: like a big sort of media event, and you know, 533 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 4: the state uses it to make this case not just 534 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 4: about George and the assassination, but of Luddism more broadly. 535 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 4: So this is where for the one of the first 536 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,719 Speaker 4: times you have this equation of Luddism to sort of 537 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 4: backwards looking, to being dumb, to being oh, these these 538 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 4: deluded men. Of course, it's left out of the equation 539 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 4: that they're that they're starving, that their families can't eat, 540 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 4: that that many of them were involved in reform protest 541 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 4: movements for decades, or trying to get things done the 542 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 4: right way before it got to this point. All of that, 543 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 4: of course, is out the window. It's just like, look 544 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 4: at this, Look at these Luddites who are willing to 545 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 4: do violence because they hate machines so much. 546 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: So the state is not is not just wanting to 547 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: convict George and his compadres, is really looking to sort 548 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: of use this trials and opportunity to win the battle 549 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: of ideas and to smear the Labdite movement in a 550 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: way that I guess with quite effective. 551 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 4: Ultimately. Yeah, that's right, And at the time, a lot 552 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 4: of newspapers are still financed by the monarchy, by its 553 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,719 Speaker 4: prince regent is running the country at the time, and 554 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 4: he does his office does issue a lot of propaganda 555 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 4: about the Luedites, you know, from the beginning, off and on, 556 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 4: and then really seizes this moment to again, yeah, equate 557 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,959 Speaker 4: the Lueddites as dummies, as malcontents, as backwards looking destroying 558 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 4: that which they do not understand a lot of the 559 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 4: key ingredients that would sort of be stamped on history. 560 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 4: As the Luddites as we understand them today. 561 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: What happened to the actual Luddites? To George and co. 562 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 4: They're hung, right, They're hung publicly, Yeah, outside of the 563 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 4: walls of York Castle. And it's a spectacle. You know, 564 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 4: it's an event like this is what happens when you 565 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 4: turn against progress. And then even more notable shortly after that, 566 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 4: they have the trial of the Ludites just strictly for 567 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 4: machine breaking and they're all hung too, you know, over 568 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 4: a dozen people. You know, once again just sort of 569 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 4: underlining the fact that this is what will happen to 570 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 4: you if you oppose the machinery of the state, of 571 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 4: this approach that we have taken to industrialization. Because the rich, 572 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 4: the elite in England at the time really liked industrialization obviously, 573 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 4: like they when factories are built on their lands, that's 574 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 4: more taxes, more income. They benefit from that, it contributes 575 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 4: to the war effort. In their eyes, they can produce 576 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 4: a great deal more So they have an interest in 577 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 4: sort of defending this centralized industrial approach that the Luod 578 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 4: height'es threatened. So this sort of version of Luddism as 579 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 4: backwards looking is therefore sort of entered into the history 580 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 4: books and it has remained as such ever since for 581 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 4: two hundred years. 582 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 3: It is it is crazy to think that like in 583 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 3: the beginning there were offering ideas, trying to propose reforms. 584 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 3: They were like you know, targeting just these specific machines, 585 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 3: and then you know they become the enemy. 586 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 2: Of the state. 587 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 3: But where does the Lutti movement go, Like does it 588 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 3: peter out? 589 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 2: Like do they have any wins in this whole process? 590 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, I want it just for one second to what 591 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 4: you just said there. I think it's really interesting that 592 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 4: they did, like they proposed even something that would sort 593 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 4: of like that that sounds today like something that like 594 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 4: Andrew Yang or Bill Gates has said, you know, tax 595 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 4: like the productivity of the machines a little bit. 596 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 2: Like the robot tax. 597 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 4: The robot tax, it would work the same way. They 598 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 4: had the same idea. These are not radical, you know, 599 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 4: Bill Gates is hardly a radical. It was they were. 600 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,239 Speaker 4: They really did try in good faith to sort of 601 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 4: suggest ways to build a better runway to the future 602 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 4: rather than one where just a handful of rich is 603 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 4: get to get to hoard all the gains from it 604 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 4: at everyone else's expense, and they just well, leudism is 605 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 4: what it came to. So the trials are in eighteen thirteen. 606 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 4: There are sort of more sporadic sort of ebbs and 607 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 4: flows of leutism until about eighteen nineteen, but by far 608 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 4: the most explosive years of Lettism are eighteen eleven eighteen twelve, 609 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 4: and then sort of when it's crushed in eighteen thirteen. 610 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 4: But importantly, there are some Luedites who, for instance, were 611 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 4: a sort of lutites by night and then reform politicians 612 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 4: or reformers by day, and so that sort of thread continues, 613 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 4: and it feeds into the broader workers movement, people who 614 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 4: are fighting for the right to collectively bargain to repel 615 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 4: these acts that prevented them from forming unions that were 616 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 4: on the books and so ie it's sort of take 617 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 4: on more of a political character. But the broader tail 618 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 4: or legacy of Leutism is this transference into the reform 619 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 4: movement where people actually do finally win concessions, the right 620 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 4: to unionize, the right to fight for better conditions. It 621 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 4: sort of segues in even to the right to vote. 622 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 4: So Luedtites are really vital in activating sort of a 623 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 4: political consciousness. There's a famous book called The Making of 624 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 4: the English Working Class by E. P. Thompson, and his 625 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 4: whole sort of meaty middle of the book is all 626 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 4: about the Luttites because it's this explosive, catalyzing event that 627 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 4: gets workers from all over the country to sort of 628 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 4: go like, hey, this is kind of happening in my 629 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 4: industry too. It has the same broad shape, like I have, 630 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 4: like the same grievances against my boss and the way 631 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,359 Speaker 4: he's using machinery, and they're fighting back in this way, 632 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 4: and I can kind of imagine myself doing that. So 633 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 4: he argues that it really just sort of forms class 634 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 4: consciousness when for one of the first times. 635 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 3: Coming up lessons we can learn from the Luddites to 636 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 3: stick with us. Welcome back to Part Time Genius and 637 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 3: Tech Stuff, our first crossover episode where we're talking to 638 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 3: the wonderful writer Brian Merchant all about Ludites. 639 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 2: Let's get back into it. 640 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: On the very first page of the book, you write, quote, 641 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: this could be today, and you ask the reader to quote. 642 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 1: Imagine millions of ordinary people plagued by a fear that 643 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: technology is accelerating out of control. They worry that machines 644 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 1: are coming to take away their jobs up in the 645 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: order of their lives. Inequality is rempant, and power is 646 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: wielded by those commanding wealth and new technologies. You don't 647 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: need a great imagination to picture the scene. How do 648 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: you understand what's happening right now today through the lens 649 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 1: of your work on the Luddites. 650 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the corollaries are so stark that you 651 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,439 Speaker 4: barely do need any imagination at all to see them. 652 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 4: I mean, it's just right there, especially with generative AI 653 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 4: and the way that it's being used in a lot 654 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 4: of creative industries right now. But more broadly, there's a 655 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 4: ton of anxieties around AI and what it's going to 656 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 4: mean for the broader economy and for working people. It's 657 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 4: almost to a t. You can kind of go down 658 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 4: the list of things that are happening and it's like, well, 659 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 4: they had these machines and they could create stuff that 660 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 4: was cheaper but not really better. You had to have 661 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 4: people to like sort of go oversee the output to 662 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,439 Speaker 4: make sure you could still use it. But you could 663 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 4: still make enough of a case that you can de 664 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 4: skill or sort of move work away from this column 665 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 4: of skilled workers and put it over here in this column. 666 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 4: So when you're looking at you know, artists or illustrators 667 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 4: or copywriters or a lot of creative workers who are 668 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 4: seeing the impacts already of generative AI on their livelihoods, 669 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 4: like this is the form it's taking, right. It's not 670 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 4: that it's being automated away completely, but the fear is 671 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 4: just that it's kind of a wrecking ball to the 672 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 4: norms and standards of their of their livelihoods, and that 673 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 4: suddenly somebody who has access to mid journey and no 674 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 4: training as an artist at all can kind of, you know, 675 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 4: if a company wants to, you know, take the risk 676 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 4: running a foul right now of copyright law or whatever 677 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 4: things that are still undecided, they can they can do 678 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 4: that instead they can produce output if they need images 679 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,479 Speaker 4: for their you know, PowerPoint slides or for their their 680 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 4: magazines or whatever whatever it may be. 681 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: Who are the who are the Latites of today? I mean, 682 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: is it Mangish's mother who who requires their emails to 683 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: be printed out? Is Itoni? Is it Christian Small's the 684 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: Amazon factory worker who led that industrial action? I mean, 685 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: who in this respectrum do you identify than new Ludites. 686 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think of those three options, Christian Smalls is 687 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 4: the closest, although he is also I think, just a 688 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 4: very traditional and effective union organizer. About a lot of 689 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 4: the grievances that Amazon workers have do come from the 690 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 4: company's insistence on, you know, using technological tools to sort 691 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 4: of surveil them or sort of like gamify their workplace. 692 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 4: They have to be so productive, you know, all the 693 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 4: stories about how long they have to complete a task. 694 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 4: You know, drivers that are peeing in bottles because they 695 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 4: don't want to get docked for stopping when they're delivering 696 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 4: a package. So those are all sort of technologically motivated. 697 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 4: But I would say the Ludites of today are are 698 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 4: largely but not entirely, people who see AI or technologies 699 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 4: creeping into their workplaces and are willing to sort of 700 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 4: refuse the way that it's being deployed against them. So 701 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 4: the most powerful example, I think are the writers and 702 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 4: actors in Hollywood who really took a stand in twenty 703 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,400 Speaker 4: twenty three against the way that the studios were hinting 704 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 4: that they wanted to use AI, which is to write 705 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 4: scripts or to generate scripts and then have writers rewrite 706 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 4: them for less money, less fees, less intellectual property, thus 707 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 4: again not necessarily eliminating the role of the writer, but 708 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 4: degrading it significantly. You have nurses who are fighting hospitals 709 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 4: that sort of want to deploy AI in the similarly 710 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 4: top down way, with you know, executives saying well, AI 711 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 4: should be used for this and this and this, instead 712 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 4: of saying, nurses, how would you find AI useful? In 713 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,280 Speaker 4: which context might you want to use this now? Instead, 714 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 4: it's like, you must use AI to make this diagnosis. 715 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 4: If you do it incorrectly, then we can penalize you. 716 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 4: And the nurses are looking at this and saying this 717 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 4: is going to be a nightmare. It is a nightmare 718 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 4: because it's taking more time to get medicine to patients 719 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 4: who need it, and I can't overwrite it because it's 720 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 4: built in. It's Again, it's the issue always when it's 721 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 4: top down, when the technology is rammed through by management 722 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 4: or thrust upon working a population who has no real 723 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,839 Speaker 4: democratics say, and how it's then used. So I've talked 724 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 4: to nurses, educators who are seeing AI handed down by 725 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 4: administrators to put into the classrooms. And again, usually the 726 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 4: issue isn't just that the AI exists, it's the way 727 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 4: that bosses are forcing people to use it that they 728 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 4: don't like. So I think as some of the objectives 729 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 4: of AI companies become a little more pointed, as they 730 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 4: try to infiltrate further into workplaces and people feel the 731 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 4: heat more, I do think with it we'll start to 732 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 4: see even more resistance there. 733 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 3: I think that's what was so eye opening about all 734 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 3: this was that Luddites really weren't against progress or technology, 735 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 3: but really the social costs that we're coming from this. 736 00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 3: But ever since writing this book, and I'm sure talking 737 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 3: with friends and stuff, has anyone taken up the term 738 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 3: lu A as a badge of honor besides me? 739 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 4: Uh, yeah, there are It's like the rested development. There 740 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 4: are dozens of us dozens, but no there I think 741 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,919 Speaker 4: it's you are seeing it pop up more and more. 742 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 4: There are a number of of podcasts and cultural figures 743 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 4: and people who identify more directly with the Luttites. It's hard. 744 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 4: It's hard to overcome that to you know, it's and 745 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 4: I think a lot of people are kind of wondering 746 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 4: whether do we just reclaim the term outright? Do we 747 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 4: say what we're doing is something different? But like no, I, 748 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 4: since I've written this book, I think not a day 749 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 4: goes by where somebody tags me in some thread or 750 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,800 Speaker 4: sends me some message that today I found out the 751 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,760 Speaker 4: Luddites kick ass, or today I found out the Ludites 752 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 4: were awesome. And it's it's happening all the time. Artists, writers, librarians, archivists, journalists, 753 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 4: people are you know, sort of at least recognizing, you 754 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,959 Speaker 4: know that the Luddites were right at least to have 755 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 4: a wide range of grievances. You know, there can be 756 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,399 Speaker 4: disagreement about their tactics, but their critique what they were 757 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 4: angry about. I think seeing what we're seeing and right 758 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 4: now it looks a lot like AI is going to 759 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 4: be unleashed by a handful of extremely large companies that 760 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 4: are more than likely to pocket most of the games. 761 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 4: Then it's not hard to see, you know, where where 762 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,720 Speaker 4: the grievances is. I think again, most Ludites even today 763 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,959 Speaker 4: are not just like, no, AI smash it, I hate 764 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 4: it all. But it's like, we absolutely have to make 765 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 4: sure that this technology is not just primarily exploiting people 766 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 4: for the benefit of a few execs in Silicon Valley, right, 767 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 4: And I think that that is something that just kind 768 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 4: of intuitively is seen by more people now, and so 769 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,879 Speaker 4: when they hear the lud eight story, it's like, oh, yeah, 770 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 4: well that's not all that different than us today, So 771 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,799 Speaker 4: maybe I am a lotite. 772 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Brian, Yeah, my pleasure. If you 773 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 1: want to hear more from Brian, I'm sure have him 774 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: back on tech stuff really soon. And he also has 775 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 1: his own brand new podcast. 776 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:13,919 Speaker 4: Check it out. 777 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: It's called System Crash. 778 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 3: I actually love System Crash and I've been binging it 779 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,320 Speaker 3: this week. But that's it for today's Part Time Genius. 780 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:22,720 Speaker 1: And today's tech stuff for this week. 781 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 3: If you like what you hear, hit us up on 782 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 3: Twitter or Instagram, or drop us a line in the 783 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 3: Apple Reviews. Also you can check out Kaleidoscope's other shows, 784 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,320 Speaker 3: and if you have a great ludight fact we missed 785 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 3: or have a topic you want us to cover, be 786 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 3: short of writers about those two 787 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: And thank you so much for listening to both Part 788 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: Time Genius and Tech Stuff