1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: Body Bus, But Joseph's gotten more. Do you ever think 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: about the term gradication? I have, you know, a couple 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: of points along the continuum in my journey. I think 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: most of us think about it when we have some 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: kind of you know, animal population that's creating havoc, or 6 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 1: maybe some type of we'd want to eradicate it, get 7 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: it away, because for whatever reason, we perceive that thing 8 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: to be bad. But when that term is applied to 9 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: a group of people, specifically to a family, it takes 10 00:00:52,400 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: on a much more sinister meaning. Today, I've got an 11 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: update for you, an update in regards to a case 12 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: that I have been covering now low these many years, 13 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: I guess since twenty seventeen, maybe even sixteen. What I'm 14 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: talking about is the piked and massacre and one of 15 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: the principles involved in that case one Billy Wagner, the 16 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: patriarch of the family. And what has come to light 17 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: in the last few days, although not necessarily shocking, I 18 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 1: can say, is someone that has followed this case, it's 19 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: less than satisfied. Coming to you from the studios at 20 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, this is Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 21 00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: is Bodybags Dave, I have drug you down rabbit hole, 22 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: haven't I brother this case? And you know the thing 23 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: about it is, anytime I talk about the Piked and Masker, 24 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: I'm still amazed to this day that so few people 25 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: are familiar with it, you know, even though you know 26 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: it has been a podcast from my friends at Tate 27 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: and Katie Studios, the number one podcast for a while 28 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: in the country, and I participated in a television program 29 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: on Oxygen in regards to it in twenty twenty three. 30 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: But still not a lot of people know about it. 31 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: It hasn't gotten into the bloodstream, if you will, I 32 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: think in the true crim community the way other cases 33 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: have that in some cases only involve a single victim, Dave, 34 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: We're talking about an entire family here. We're talking about 35 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: a family of a eat that were brutally butchered on 36 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 1: one night in four separate locations. And still to this day, 37 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: after all these years, I still can't get my mind 38 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: around it how anybody could do this. But just so 39 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: folks understand this, and I didn't think I'd ever used 40 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: this term. This octuple homicide is the largest mass murder 41 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: in the history of Ohio, the largest Ohio has been 42 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: around for a long time, and there's been a lot 43 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: of violence that's come out of Ohio. Murder Inc. Was 44 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: based out of Cleveland, Dave, so you know, back during 45 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: the gangster days, you know, And this is the largest 46 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: mass homicide trial or case in Ohio history. 47 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: You mentioned that it goes back to twenty sixteen. This 48 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: didn't happen just yesterday. It happened in twenty sixteen, and 49 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: it took two years before they ever affected an arrest. 50 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 2: But how is it that you have eight members of 51 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 2: one family the road new family in a very specific 52 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: area that get wiped out in an overnight period of 53 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 2: time on April twenty first, twenty second, twenty sixteen, they 54 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: get totally destroyed. It wasn't by fire, it wasn't by flood, 55 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 2: it wasn't by earthquake. How were these people killed and 56 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 2: in what order were they? Do we know who did this? 57 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: Yeah? And yeah we yeah, we actually do because of 58 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: the testimony of Jake that was offered up Jake Wagner, 59 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: he he you know, he allocuted it to this essentially, 60 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't a pure allocution like BTK did, but it 61 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: was him laying out the timeline and laying down everything 62 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: that it had happened before, during, and after, and you know, Dave, 63 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: you were talking about and I appreciate your kind words 64 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: about you know me, you know, running my mouth all 65 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: over the place about forensics and whatnot. But I actually 66 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: kind of went into default mode when I began to 67 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: look at this case or cases so many years ago, 68 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: and began and to think about the military at that 69 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: moment in time more than I ever did about about forensics, 70 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: because I was thinking who could who could actually pull 71 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: something and the execution of this case, Who who in 72 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: the world could actually pull this thing off? And for 73 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: a long time, I think that many people and I'm 74 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: not talking about law enforcement here, I'm just talking about 75 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: many people out there that were casual observers. I thought 76 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: that this was probably a cartel hit because the scene 77 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: had to be pulled off with a certain amount of synchronicity, 78 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: you know, because you've got four separate scenes in one night, 79 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: and there two of the scenes are immediately side by side. 80 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: The senior Roading, the dad of the Roading family, theatri 81 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: there patriarch, if you will, you know he he essentially 82 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: was killed in his trailer along with you know, his 83 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: cousin who was actually staying there with him, and that 84 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: would be Gary, and Gary had would come in and 85 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: do day labor with Christ this at this kind of 86 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: campground he worked at. They'd push dirt around and you know, 87 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: do landscaping, all that sort of thing. They were killed first, 88 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: and then of course the trailer of Clarence Frankie Rodin, 89 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: who was twenty years old. This is the son of 90 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: Chris Roadin senr. His trailer was immediately a next door, 91 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: you know to Chris Senior's trailer. And just as an aside, 92 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: as we've talked about before, these trailers were actually removed 93 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: from the scene, which something I've never seen. This is 94 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: another first for me. 95 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 2: You're gonna have to come back to that in just 96 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 2: a minute. After you lay out the rest, we'll come 97 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 2: back to why the trailers. 98 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm one of the most poignant things, I think, 99 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: particularly as as a papa. Now, that always just brought 100 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: a tear to my eye every single time I've been there. 101 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: I've seen this and it's still there. They've got those 102 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: old wooden steps that are you know, prefabed, that are 103 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, you push them up to the main entrance 104 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: of the trailer. Trailers up on blocks, and Dave, you 105 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: know there's still children's toys sitting after all these years. 106 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: I was up there in two in in twenty twenty three, 107 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: I think was the last time I was up there, 108 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: and Daved, those those plastic toys were still sitting on 109 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: the stoop seven years. Yeah. Yeah, that those babies had 110 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: played played with, you know, in that house, and or 111 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: one of the children, because you remember the one child 112 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: that was the child of Frankie Roaden and Hannah Gilly. 113 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: That's that's the young child. I think he was three 114 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: or four. He came to the door when the the 115 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: aunt came by to check check and find out where 116 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: everybody was. And the little boy came up to the door, 117 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: you know, opened the door for his aunt and looked 118 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: at her and said, Mommy and daddy playing in zombie 119 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: and uh they were dead in the bed and there 120 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: was a baby in between them, uh, still alive, you know, 121 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: covered uh covered in his parents' blood. You know, the 122 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: little boy had been sleeping on the sofa in the 123 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: front room, and so you know, geographic geographic proximity. Going 124 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: back to my point about the military, the scene had 125 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: it it smacked of almost this military precision or an 126 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: attempt at military precision with uh, the proximity to Chris 127 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: seniors trailer, Frankie's trailer, and then you know, back down 128 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: the road. It it's roughly it's with yeah, it's it 129 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: feels like a good strong driver from from from the 130 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: White Tea's on a golf course, uh, to Dana's to 131 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: Dana's house. Now, this is a house that Chris Senior 132 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: had built for his ex wife. That's kind of relationship 133 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: they had. And it was again it was a mobile 134 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: home or modular home that had had add ons done 135 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: to it in the yard, was neat as a pen, 136 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: unlike Chris's, by the way, that had old junked out 137 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: cars in it and everything. Dana's house was beautiful though 138 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: had a standalone garage. Uh, it had been added on 139 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: to you. You had you know, three more deceased in 140 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: that house, uh, including including a baby that was not 141 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: deceased but still alive that Jake later said that he 142 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: was afraid the baby was going to uh to starve death. 143 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: So he this is so bad to say, but he 144 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: had actually bows the breast of of Hannah Roading and 145 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: placed the baby adjacent to her breast so the child 146 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: could suckle during the night. He said, I didn't think 147 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: that star. Yeah, yeah, it's it's the ultimate in in 148 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: in callousness. And then of course, you know later on Kenneth, 149 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: Kenneth Roading is found some distance away. So you know, I. 150 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 2: Guess, wasn't he wanted one of the guys that came 151 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: in and was like he had a little camper trailer. 152 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, he did, and he had he had his own 153 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: little you know, this whole thing they thought was drug 154 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: related going on, and he did. I mean, Chris had 155 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: a bigger one. You know, he had the the I 156 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: guess you could call him hothouses that were out back 157 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: of his structure. But he was you know, he was 158 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: accused of other nefarious things I think including uh, cock 159 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: fighting or you know, dog fighting or something like that. 160 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: And and this is not granted the amount of weed 161 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: that that Chrisine was growing would not be considered by 162 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: the DEA has grown for personal consumption. This is something 163 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: you're going to sell. Uh. With Kenneth, he was different. Uh, 164 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: you know, he had like a few plants out there 165 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: adjacent to you know what the Brits call a caravan. 166 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's like a little camper that he had 167 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: he had put steps out out of and he was 168 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 1: just living. He's a single guy living in this trailer. 169 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: And he had kids too, but they didn't live there 170 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: with him. He was a day laborer. You know. He's 171 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: a hard working kind of salt of the earth kind 172 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: of guy. But they they went in, the perpetrators went 173 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: in this case in order to you know, eradicate the 174 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: whole family. And of course we all know the same 175 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: stems from child custody issue involving you know, Jake and 176 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 1: Hannah Rodent. Uh. 177 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 2: I think the bear's backing up a little bit Joe, 178 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 2: because but those were not as familiar as Joe and 179 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: some of the people who have been covering this case 180 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 2: since it happened. We've actually been covered bring the Canvas 181 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 2: Mom story, which was a double homicide and it was 182 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 2: because of a custody issue of children. And this one is, uh, 183 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: this story in its nutshell when you mentioned the drugs, 184 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: because I remember when we first started covering it looking 185 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: at all the different things this could have been. You 186 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: don't have eight people of one family getting wiped out 187 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: for no reason there, you know, And it's usually further 188 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 2: beyond something that you would see locally. This is somebody 189 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 2: brought you know, you to be get Dick to be 190 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 2: as cold blooded as this. You can't have a relationship 191 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 2: with these people. That's what they were thinking. What they 192 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 2: found out is that the Wagoners were in fact that 193 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 2: cold blooded. And I think you said something to me 194 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 2: earlier today when we were talking about this, that the 195 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 2: puppet master of all of this, yeah, actually created it. 196 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: Here's what we're going to do. Jake and his Jake 197 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: was eighteen and Hannah May Roden was thirteen when they 198 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 2: began dating. All right. They guy had a baby when 199 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 2: she was fifteen. Now, the families were just fine with 200 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 2: them being together and being a couple and having a 201 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: baby at that age. But Hannah Mae Rodin had her 202 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 2: fill of Jake, didn't want him anymore, wanted other guys, 203 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 2: and she had a baby with another man. Jake didn't 204 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: like that. He still loved Hannah May. When Hannah May 205 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 2: still wouldn't take him back even after she dumped the guy, 206 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 2: she ends up dating another man, has a baby with 207 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 2: this guy. Yeah, it's Jake was in love and his 208 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 2: mama wanted her grand baby. 209 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that something Dave, you know you talk we 210 00:13:55,160 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 1: were talking about you know, the Kansas mamas. Oh, and 211 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: it would seem not the patriarch, but the matriarch in 212 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: both of these scenarios, were you know behind this. Angela uh, 213 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: you know, kind of pulled the strings through the planning. 214 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: You know, bought the infamous shoes from Walmart of all 215 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: places to go in and you know, furnish for her boys, 216 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: for her husband and her two sons to. 217 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: Wear Angelat shoes for them to walk into the home 218 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 2: so they wouldn't be leaving prints of their own. 219 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, because you know, we have wear patterns and 220 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: forensics that we look at and you you you're you know, pronate, superinnate. 221 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: You know, the way your your foot strikes the ground 222 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: is unique to you. And if you don't, if if 223 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: you're these things are fresh off the shelf and you 224 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: put them on for this one event, you're not going 225 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: to have those unique marketings. Again, this goes to planning. 226 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: It goes to planning. It's thoughtful, you know, they're thinking, 227 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: thinking things through here. And I don't know that Billy 228 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: who is on trial or will be on trial in January, 229 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: who has been accused in this case, and allegedly, you know, 230 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: one of the driving forces behind this. I don't know 231 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: that he had as much to do with this as 232 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: Angela did as the impetus behind it. Angela is a 233 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: very interesting character because she would if any of these 234 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: if any of these people were involved in a relationship 235 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: at all, any of her boys. George resisted this, but 236 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: Jake would submit, and he would have these women, these girls, 237 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: if you will, that they'd have to surrender passwords. You know, 238 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: she would have to have access to these girls, uh, 239 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: social media accounts. You know, when the the Rodents ran 240 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: off to Alaska, Jake got involved with a woman up there, 241 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: and she, you know, she escaped, and literally it is 242 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: framed that way that she escaped. Angela had demanded all 243 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: of her social media contacts and she was living with them, 244 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: and you know, Jacob said, listen, if you don't submit, 245 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: you're going to die. And that's that's how chilliness is. 246 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: So even in the wake, even in the wake of 247 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: of the butchery that they've already committed down in Ohio, 248 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: they haven't changed their tune. And you just said. 249 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 2: That Angela Wagner, Yeah, the matriarch of the Wagner clan, yes, 250 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: orchestrates everything the death of eight people, the Rodent family. 251 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: They did leave three children alive in the massacre that night, 252 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 2: but Angela Wagner goes to the store and buys the 253 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 2: shoes so that as they walk through the crime scene 254 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 2: and blood, knowing they're going to be tracking blood, that 255 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 2: they won't leave tracks that can be Actually you can 256 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 2: tell that the guy limps on his left leg or something. 257 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 2: They then they, being the Wagner family led by matriarch Angela, 258 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 2: they head up to Alaska. Are they they're hiding out 259 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 2: during the investigation. Why were they up in Alaska? 260 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: Well, they went up there, you know, and the police 261 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: have been tracking on the entire time. They went up 262 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: there to get away from from the stir that had 263 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: been created, you know, and that they they were falsely accused. Yeah, 264 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: they were lamenting the fact that they were falsely accused. 265 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: They just wanted to go up there and start a 266 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: new life. It's not like they moved to another country, 267 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: you know. They went to Alaska to get up there. 268 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe they they thought that that could 269 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: be validated as opposed to, you know, flying off somewhere 270 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: that didn't have an extradition treaty. They could still give 271 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: the appearance that they were just trying to get away. Wow, 272 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: And you know, they had gone up there and established 273 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: a you know, kind of a life up there. It's 274 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: it's hard going up there if you don't know anybody, 275 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: and you don't have any marketable skills when you get. 276 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: Up there except for growing weed and making moonshine and 277 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 2: killing people. 278 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well yeah, and I don't know about the moonshine 279 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: part of it, but yeah, growing weed and in dealing 280 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: with this level of violence, and now you're going to 281 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: support an entire family up there, and you know, things 282 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: just didn't I don't. I think the wheels fell off 283 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: and they wound up coming back to coming back to Ohio. 284 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: I am kind of left with this on Jake though. 285 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 2: So Jake and Hanname have a baby. Hannime moves on 286 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: to other men, and Angela once her granddaughter son rather, 287 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 2: she wants that grand baby Jake's son or daughter? Is 288 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: it a boyar girl? I'm getting confused. I got confused 289 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 2: to her. 290 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: It's a daughter, all right. 291 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 2: So Angela Wagner wants her granddaughter, and Hannah may Rodin 292 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: has now moved on she's two men removed from dating 293 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 2: Jake when she was thirteen and fourteen and fifteen, and 294 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 2: after the destruction of the Rodent family in Ohio in 295 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 2: Pike County, Ohio, Angela Wagner, Billy Wagner and the whole 296 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 2: team head up north to Alaska where they try to 297 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 2: establish whatever and Jake falls for a local girl in Alaska. 298 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 2: She is then having to submit to Angela's control to 299 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 2: the point where Jake tells her either you do it 300 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 2: or you die, and she's able to escape the klan 301 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 2: and they move back to Ohio. 302 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: Is that fairly close to what happened? That's yeah. And 303 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: so the way that happened with this young lady, she 304 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: had actually gone to a parking lot at a shopping 305 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: center and escaped after getting a message out to a 306 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: relative who picked her up and spirited her away. And 307 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: you know this is you know, I don't know. You 308 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,719 Speaker 1: begin to think about how dark this whole thing is, 309 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: and you think about the level of evil that's involved here, 310 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: and you want to hold somebody responsible. But here's the thing, Dave, 311 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: you know, and you know, looking at this case, I 312 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: think that you know, for what does remain of the 313 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: road and family. Maybe at this point they're just they're 314 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: ready to be done with it. Maybe at this point, 315 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: you know, they want to see justice served in whatever 316 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: manner is going to come about. But I do know this, 317 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner, who is the patriarch of the Wagner family, 318 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: he is going to stand in court, He's going to 319 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: appear in court. He's going to listen to all of 320 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: these witnesses be paraded off that stand over and over 321 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: and over again. But he's not going to have to 322 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: pay the ultimate price here. But I don't know, maybe 323 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: there's some comfort in the fact that, you know, he's 324 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 1: got eight murder charges hanging over his head, including I 325 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: think twenty two other you know charges including weapons I think, 326 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: and falsification and all kinds of other stuff. He's going 327 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: to not see the light of day. But here's the thing, 328 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: even at the conclusion of that, Angela Wagner is only 329 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: going inside for thirty years, only going inside for thirty years. 330 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: And she cut that deal Billy, her husband, who you know, 331 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: they were to say estranged was probably an understatement, but 332 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: still within that nuclear family, as weird as it was, 333 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: they had a life together with their kids. One kid 334 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: George was essentially non compliant, but he was drawn back 335 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: into this and participated that night back in April of 336 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. Jake, who winds up being the major trigger 337 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: puller in this case and who literally shot the mother 338 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: of his child right in the face. He's in for life. 339 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: But Billy, it remains to be seen what shall happen 340 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: with this man. But I know this, there's never, you know, 341 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: getting the Rodents back. There's never reclaiming that Bucolic life 342 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: that they had up there in that beautiful area of Ohio. 343 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: And for the children that are left behind, it's going 344 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: to be something that will be spoken of and whispers 345 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,239 Speaker 1: for years and years and years to come. Kids up 346 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: in that region one hundred years from now, we'll sit 347 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: around campfires on camping trips and tell ghost stories about 348 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: the wagoners and the roads because it has scarred that community. 349 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: We might not know much about it in the news 350 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: all over the country, but it has left a deep scar. 351 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: They entered into a let's face it, it's a criminal conspiracy. 352 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: You've got Angela and you've got her husband, and the 353 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: other two George and and Jake, and then there's two 354 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: other peripheral family members that were charged with making false statements. 355 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: But the four that you know are really you know, 356 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: kind of focused on here, you know, had a hand 357 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: in this. Now, Angela obviously didn't go out that night. 358 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: Guess where she was. She was back at her house 359 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: taking care of Sophia, the four year old was in 360 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: her care that night, Jake's daughter that he had had 361 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: with Hannah Rodin. And interestingly enough, that child had been 362 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: spirited out of that home because that same night when 363 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: they descended upon Dana's house where Hannah Rodin was staying, 364 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: that's her mama's house, along with her sixteen year old brother, 365 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: who was also executed in that same house. Sophia would 366 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: have been in that house as well with her baby sibling, 367 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: and that child conveniently was not there. That child was 368 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: in possession of Angela Wagner that night. So it was 369 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: all planned out. It was all planned out, and the 370 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: prize was Sophia. But yeah, I mean, at the end 371 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: of the day, Billy went out with his two sons 372 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,959 Speaker 1: to perpetrate this crime. They'd even created a false bed 373 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: in the back of a pickup truck so that you 374 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: could not see occupants of that vehicle that it would 375 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: just give the appearance that there was only one person 376 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: rolling up. He went up onto Chris Senior stoop drew 377 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: him to the door to talk to him under the 378 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: pretense of a business arrangement. And you know, George the 379 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: son was supposed to have let loose with the SKS 380 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: shoulder fired weapon, and he froze. And it's at that 381 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: moment time that Jake takes over. Jake takes over and 382 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: he beginst fire and he and his father went into 383 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: that trailer and executed. As a matter of fact, Billy 384 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: was heard to say, through tears, I've just killed my 385 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: best friend. And their bodies were drug their bodies being 386 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: Chris Senior and his cousin. We're both drug back into 387 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: that back bedroom from the front and then covered with 388 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: bedclothes back there in the back. And then they go 389 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: on to the next trailer and wipe out that family. 390 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 2: His best friend, Chris. They drag Chris and who it 391 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: was the who else was in there? 392 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it was. It was actually his cousin, Garrett, 393 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: who worked with Chris on a regular basis. He would 394 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: come in now he lived part of the time down 395 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 1: in Kentucky. You know, both these families had had relations 396 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: in Kentucky because we're we're not right on the Ohio River, 397 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: but we're within ninety miles of it. It's an easy trip. 398 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: You've got people that that crossed the river regularly up 399 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: into Ohio from this region. And it's appalation. Don't make 400 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: no mistake about it. When you see it. It looks 401 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: it all looks the same, you know, Kentucky, Northern Kentucky, 402 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: and southern Ohio down in that portion of the country 403 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: looks a lot, you know, it looks looks virtually the same, 404 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: low lying green rolling pastures and low lying hills and 405 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And people are isolated down there. 406 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: That was one of the things about this case, Dave, 407 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: was the fact that that, you know, there was a 408 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: lot of talk of drug cartels and all these sorts 409 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: of things in the beginning, and you would specifically have 410 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: to know the inner workings of these families and what 411 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: their attachments would be to an organization that had come 412 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: up out of the south, you know, like out of Mexico. 413 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: We're going to take our pound of flesh and my 414 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: and I've heard other people say this all right. Now, 415 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: Granted I've never worked for the dea. I've worked drug 416 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: hits before, organized drug hits, and everybody in the house 417 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: got killed. My understanding is is that if it if 418 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: it had been a drug cartel that had perpetrated this, 419 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: there would not have been anybody that survived. And that 420 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: gives you real insight into this, that they would kill 421 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: all of the adults but spare the babies. Well, why 422 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: would you do that? Why would you spare the babies? 423 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: In this case, You've got two or three children, now, 424 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: you know Frankie had two children. He had a very 425 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: young child that actually still slept into bed with he 426 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: and his wife, Hannah, Hannah Gilly. And then you had 427 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: their other child, little boy that was sleeping on the 428 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: sofa that arguably bore witness to this. He probably saw 429 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: them come through the house, but they were not going 430 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: to subject that child to testimony on the stand. 431 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 432 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: And Sophia, Sophia who was in the care of her grandma, 433 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: she was four at that time, Dave. That was in 434 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. So now she's you know, she's in a 435 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: spot now in her life and she's being taken care of, 436 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: but she's in a spot in her life where she 437 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: knows things she's heard things, and you know, thinking that 438 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: she's still living there and that she hasn't been sanitized 439 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: by moving her away, you know, and every relation she's 440 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: ever known is forgotten. She's going to hear about this 441 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: and this is going to mark her for life. But yeah, 442 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: Billy Billy led the charge on this. He was all 443 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: in on planning. You know. I went by their house 444 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: by the way, by the the the Wagoner home, and 445 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: it's this kind of I don't know how to describe 446 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: it to you. It's kind of an old. It looked 447 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: like a two story old Victorian style home that had 448 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: pasture land around it. It's it would be an enviable home, 449 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, if you didn't know what had occurred there. 450 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: So Billy didn't have a trailer. 451 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: Uh, Billy Billy did, uh, And he had essentially moved 452 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: away from the family, but they would all gather there. 453 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: So he and Angela were kind of on the outs 454 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: by this point in time, but they were still in 455 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: this confederacy together. And here's another little factory that you 456 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: know that I may have failed to mention. According to 457 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: what I have heard, Billy's rather simple minded, and Angela 458 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: ruled the roost when it came to him, and she 459 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: loved and adored baskets. And forgive me if I've already 460 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: told the story, but I was fascinated by this and 461 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: kind of gives you an insight in the psychology. I 462 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: think Billy was famous for his temper, flying off the handle, shouting, 463 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: you know, screaming, threatening, breaking things, all that sort of thing. 464 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: And every time he would have a fight with Angela, 465 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: he would go out and he would buy her a basket. 466 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: And guess what Angela would do. She would take that 467 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: basket into her kitchen and place it on the wall. 468 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,959 Speaker 1: And from what I understand, within that kitchen, adjacent to 469 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: the little table that they all sat around and planned 470 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: this horrific act acts, the walls were festooned with baskets, 471 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: each basket being emblematic of some kind of fight that 472 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: both Billy and Angela had had at some point in time. 473 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: You know, look, man, the psychopathology in this thing runs 474 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: so deep. I don't know that we could even begin 475 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: to plumb the depths of it. 476 00:31:53,680 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: Wow, Joe, that's so unhealthy. My gosh, you know, it's 477 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 2: so weird. I don't have the vocabulary, you know, but yeah, 478 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 2: it's earlier we were talking about the trailers, and we 479 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 2: were also talking about in this particular case, for the 480 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 2: first time in your career, you know, they actually sealed 481 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 2: up the trailers and moved them to a building so 482 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 2: they could take them indoors so they could study the 483 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 2: actual crime scenes because all of these murders took place 484 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 2: inside the homes, right inside the trailers. 485 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so there was nobody that was Yeah. 486 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 2: They're wrapping up the crime scene and taking it to 487 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 2: the lab pretty much. 488 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: Yeah minus minus the bodies. Right, And just so you know, 489 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: these trailers had been here, and I urge anybody could 490 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: look this up. Look up the images and you'll see 491 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. They're they're out there. All you 492 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: got to do is, you know, put in you know 493 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: wagoner crime scene, you know, a road and family crime scenes, 494 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: and you'll see these these dwellings that are there. And Dave, 495 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: these things have been they've been hardened in in these locations. 496 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: You know, they're plumbs. This is not like an RV trailer. 497 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: These are mobile homes and they've been there for years. 498 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: They had to go to great links to get these 499 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: things mobile again. And then on top of that, not 500 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: just to get the mobile but to get them out. 501 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking right now of Frankie's trailer and 502 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: Chris Seniors trailer because they're they're cluttered with cars, car parts, 503 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: all kinds of junk out in the yard. They had 504 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: to hook these things up, get them road ready in 505 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: order to tow them out of these locations, to take them. 506 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: The place that they took them to looked to me 507 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: like an old blimp hanger. It was big, you know, 508 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: it was that size. And I don't know how much 509 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: more you could study these things there. First off, if 510 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: you're trying to pull bullet trajectories on the scene. As 511 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: you well know, mobile home is not like a stick 512 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: built home. It moves back and forth. So just a 513 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: few millimeters of movement in the scene as it's going 514 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: down the road. And you don't know how sound these 515 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: things are anyway, because they've been in place for years. 516 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 1: It's going to throw it off, you know, throw your 517 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: measurements off. So I never could really understand what the 518 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: rationale was for securing the scenes and why they would 519 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: do that. It didn't necessarily make sense to me at 520 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: the time. It's still to a great degree doesn't make sense, 521 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: and it doesn't have to make sense to me. It's 522 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: just it was an odd thing. I've never seen it happen. 523 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: And look, I've worked I've worked a lot of homicides 524 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: and mobile homes over the years. I never recall ever 525 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: removed a mobile home from a crime scene at all. 526 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: And but it's just it's kind of bizarre. It's one 527 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:11,919 Speaker 1: of those little little instances with with these cases that's 528 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: such an oddity compared to all other things. You know 529 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: that you work in what we might call them doing 530 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: air quotes here, you know, in the in normal circumstances. 531 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: There are really no normal circumstances in any death investigation. 532 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: But this one, as you you know, I think you 533 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: would you would admit, is it's kind of over the top. 534 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: And then to have the the mobile homes removed, you 535 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: have to get them road ready. That means you're cutting power, 536 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: you know, you're disconnecting the plumbing, you know, everything that 537 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: goes along with this, and then getting all of that 538 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: debris out of the way to pull it down a 539 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: road and Dave this road that these homes were on 540 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: the three primary scenes. And then you've got the brothers 541 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: that's seven miles away, Dave. This is farming roads. Uh there, 542 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: it's it's blacktop. But we the production team and I 543 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: when we were going out there to shoot on site, 544 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: we had to pull over in order to let other 545 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: traffic come through. So you can imagine if some guy 546 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: in springtime's coming through there with his tractor, you know, 547 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 1: there's not a lot of room. If some guy's hauling 548 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: a plow behind, you know, his his John Deere, you know, 549 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: going down the road, you might even have to back 550 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: up in some spots. So it's just the idea of 551 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: pulling these very delicate structures down the road and turning 552 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: those really tight curves to get it to this location. 553 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: I just hope and I guess they did an effective job, 554 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: because you know Georg's Georgia's case saw conviction. I'll be 555 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: interested to see how this is approached in Billy's case. 556 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: And by the way, we have no idea where this 557 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: case is going to be tried yet. We know that 558 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,240 Speaker 1: it's going to be tried in January, but we don't 559 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,399 Speaker 1: know where it's going to be tried because the judge 560 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: hasn't named it yet. 561 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 2: The one fascinating thing that you brought up that I'm 562 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 2: at first I thought that's a cool idea to take 563 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 2: the trailers in. Okay, in my mind, that's what I 564 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 2: was thinking, and that's why I asked you about it. 565 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 2: I didn't realize the movement. I didn't think about the 566 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 2: movement of the walls and things like that that are 567 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 2: that are built to move like that. So you can 568 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 2: tow a trailer and put it in it's called the 569 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 2: mobile home. You can move them. There's not a thing 570 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 2: in the world that they could not have done in 571 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 2: terms of sealing up the crime scene out at the location. 572 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 2: They you know, they could have done all of it 573 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 2: out there on site without moving a thing. And I 574 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 2: wonder what they're I wonder what the explanation is. Now, 575 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 2: I'm curious. Now I'm curious. I thought it was a 576 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 2: great idea first. Now I'm like, that was not smart. 577 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I don't know, and I don't know 578 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: if it's going to make a dime's worth of difference, 579 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: you know, going down the road, but it's certainly something. Look, 580 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,280 Speaker 1: I tell you this here Jacksonville State. When I'm lecturing 581 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: and I'm talking about crime scene and investigation, this case 582 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: will be cited. And no, I mean just from the 583 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: perspective of just teaching young minds that want to go 584 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:16,839 Speaker 1: into forensics field for forensics in particular, what do you 585 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: guys think about this? Tell me, you know, tell me 586 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: the upside and the downside relative to this, and what 587 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: do you see or problems that you might that you 588 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: might incur? And is is I guess the big question is, 589 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: you know, you always have to take it on balance 590 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: relative to what are you gaining by doing this? Is 591 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: there something that you're going to gain by removal of 592 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 1: these structures to another location? And look, I mean I've 593 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: you know, I've cut the walls out of houses, I've 594 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: taken up carpet flooring, taking appliance as we do that 595 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: all the time, particularly when cases of dismemberment or you know, 596 00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: something like that, you know, and that happens. You know, 597 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: back to the Kansas Moms, they brought those that freezer 598 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:08,359 Speaker 1: you know, into the m's office there in Oklahoma City. Yeah, 599 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: I mean you've got to do that. We're talking about home, right, 600 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 1: homes plural, Yeah, not just freezer. We're talking about homes. 601 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: And Angela's house was kind of interesting because it appeared 602 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: more to me like a modular home, like it was 603 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: and I think maybe my eyes were deceiving me, because 604 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: there were add ons to it to give it the 605 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: appearance of like a home, you know, with like an 606 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: a frame roof on the backside of it and that 607 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: sort of thing, and then a garage that's off to 608 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: the sandalon garage. So yeah, this case, this case is 609 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: fascinating in that sense. I'm going to be fascinated to 610 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 1: watch beginning in January as to how they're going to 611 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 1: utilize this evidence in the presentation of the defense of Billy. 612 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 1: Are they going to try to attack it anyway? Because look, 613 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: they've they've had an opportunity to learn the process, the forgiving, 614 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: the defense has had an opportunity to learn about this case. 615 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: Is there a chance that he could wiggle off the 616 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: hook here? Yeah, I suppose there is, but probably not. 617 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: Uh And I think again, I know I'm kind of 618 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,879 Speaker 1: all over the board here, but I think again, this 619 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: goes to why they want to move the trial. They're 620 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: saying that it's it's too too many people have heard 621 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: about this case in Pike County. Pike County is a 622 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: tiny place. Too many people have heard about it that 623 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: would be on the jury. And as you well know, 624 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: you know, you go to you know, you go to 625 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: small rural home, rural town or county, and uh, everybody's 626 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: met you at one point in time, you know, and 627 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 1: many people are kin to one another. You know, they 628 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: talk about that what's that old game six degrees separation, 629 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: you know from Kevin Bacon or whatever it was. There's 630 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: fewer than six degrees of separation here. You know, we're 631 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: just talking about a couple degrees of separation. And that's 632 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,319 Speaker 1: going to be you know, the dynamic that they're looking at. 633 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: That's why the judge agreed to change venues here. Why 634 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: they're going to move to thing, I just don't know. 635 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if they're going to move it to 636 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 1: a county of equivalent side and demo size in demographic 637 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: Are they going to take it up the road to 638 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: Columbus or are they going to go all the way 639 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: over to Cincinnati? Uh to facilitate this. Columbus is not 640 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: that far. Cincinnati is a couple of hours. When I 641 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: flew in. Every time I flew in, I flew into Columbus, 642 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: which is north north of Pike County, and you know, 643 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: just took a car south. Cincinnati is a bit more 644 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: of a push. And so when judges do these sorts 645 00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: of things, they they have to take into to account 646 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: a lot. First off, are you gonna be able to 647 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: get the witnesses there? Do they have the means to 648 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: get there? And then if they have to be there 649 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: multiple days, can you house these people? And so it's 650 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: a it's a huge expense. They spent more what's his name, 651 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,879 Speaker 1: I think DeWine is the was the attorney general at 652 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: that time. He's now the governor. They had to draw 653 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: in resources in order to facilitate the processing of all 654 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 1: of this evidence. This has cost a state an incredible 655 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: amount of money over all these years. I'm Joseph Scott 656 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body