WEBVTT - Part One: Indymedia: How Lefty Techies and Journalists Reinvented the Internet 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:04.280 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:06.800 Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:10.600 your weekly podcast that whenever there's bad things happening, there's 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:15.240 people trying to do good things, including not introduced their 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.919 podcast badly. I am your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and this 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:22.160 week my guest is Sarah Marshall. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:23.680 Hi. How are you? Hi? 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:26.600 I'm so happy to be here. I like how you 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:28.800 started that off big and then he got it nice 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:33.280 and small. You know this week, Sarah Marshall, that's true. 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:35.760 It's an intimate salon. 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.879 Inviting people to get a little closer to the Yeah. 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:42.040 Well, I've been watching a lot of Kathy Griffin's specials 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.400 because I realized how much I missed Kathy Griffin. And 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.480 she had like nineteen Bravo specials in the two thousands. 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.680 Do you know who that is? Magbie, Nope, no idea. 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.080 She was on Suddenly Susan in the nineties. 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:55.880 Magpie also doesn't know what that is. 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:57.680 I've heard of it. I don't know what it is. 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:00.880 Well, I have this thing called suddenly, so you put 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:03.520 on pasta salad always makes me think of Suddenly Susan. 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:06.080 But Kathy Griffin is a stand up comedian. Does this 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:09.760 thing where she like will start kind of like speaking quieter, 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.520 and she's like while doing a giant show on a 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:14.680 giant theater, and she's like, I'm talking like this because 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:17.480 this is GISs between you and me before like a 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:21.039 particularly juicy piece of celebrity gossip. So like, we're talking 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.760 like this because this GISs between us and all the 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:26.920 people listening as well the guests, between all of us, 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:28.480 no one else. 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:30.640 No one else can listen except for the people who 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:34.080 are currently listening. Don't tell your friends about this podcast 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:35.959 because they can't hear it. 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.760 We really need to keep this in a tight intimate circle. 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:42.520 Yeah, I got to keep them numbers down. 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.840 That's what keeps That's what no one ever says on 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.080 a podcast. I want you to go out and rate 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:53.720 my podcast. Go ahead and give me a one star rating. 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:55.280 I hate it when people are like, give us a 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.400 five star rating, because that's presuming that the person listening 0:01:58.600 --> 0:01:58.920 liked it. 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:01.680 What if they didn't, I know, although it is a 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:03.120 good reason to do it at the end of the episode, 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:04.680 So at the beginning of the episode, because by the 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:06.200 end of the episode, if you may get that far, 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:07.320 you probably don't hate it. 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.760 Like I probably liked it if I listened for this 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:10.320 whole hour. 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.560 Yeah, although I say that is if I don't regularly 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.160 listen to podcasts that I do not like at all, 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.840 because I pick a like new interest like every month. 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:21.639 I mean, you can tell by the theme of this 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.520 podcast that I like new interests. And then I'm like, 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:29.400 I need to know everything about r ving or sailboats 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.320 or I don't know those are two recently, and then 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:34.120 I listen to all the podcasts about them, and I 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.240 don't like most of them. 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.160 Yes, because it's hard to find something that's on both 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:41.680 a topic you like and you like the person doing it. 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.000 I think, I know. Yeah, And if you're listening and 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:46.720 you're one of those people who kind of hates me 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:51.400 and just likes my content, I'm not sorry, nice, but 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:53.799 I do have a producer. I'm Sophie. 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.920 Hi, Sophie, Hi, Mike Pie Hi, Sarah, Hi, Sophie. 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:00.960 Nice to be here with you wearing your hat that 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:02.120 says potatoes. 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.040 I am. I know, it's so good. Everyone sends me 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.320 potato memes all the time and it's great, But Sophie's 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:09.079 the real. 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:10.160 A potato head. 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.320 Yeah, that's the word I was thinking you are, and. 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:15.919 I am too. It's a very pre potato group today. 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:16.360 Yeah. 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:20.320 Yeah, I had potatoes and couscous for lunch. Oh nice. 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:23.440 It was just sort of random storre fry food and 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:24.079 it was so good. 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:28.000 I had several mini croissants that I got discounted at 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:28.600 fred Meyer. 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.560 I like croissants, Sophie, did you have a starch for 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:33.320 lunch today? 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:38.240 I had two Italian sausages and an apple sauce. 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.680 Oh. I think you're the healthiest of the three of 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:43.360 us right now, you're the one. 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.040 Yeah. 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:52.440 Well. We also have an audio engineer named Eva hi 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:57.000 Eva Hiva hi Eva, and our theme music was written 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:02.640 forced by unwoman and you have unwittingly come in in 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.400 the middle of me. It's not a series, but it's 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.520 kind of a series. I've been talking a lot about 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.480 the alter globalization movement of the late nineties and early 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.920 oughts for the past couple months because I've been talking 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:18.880 a lot about the sort of protest infrastructure that people built, 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.320 and so I've been focusing on various groups that came 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:27.839 together to create the modern protest infrastructure, and specifically this 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:32.200 grand movement of movements that relied on decentralized organizing I'm 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:33.800 going to do this long build up before I give 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:37.440 you the topic. And the movement of movements especially kind 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:41.040 of came from decentralized organizing techniques developed by the Zapatistas 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.240 in Chiapus, Mexico, as well as anarchist traditions, and they 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:49.800 challenged neoliberalism and the challenge the way that structural adjustment 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:53.120 programs are destroying country's economies and basically just destroying the 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.520 global self. We talked about how the Zapatistas in Mexico 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:00.360 broke from traditional leftist organizing by introducing indigenous ae ideas 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:04.000 around decentralization and bottom up democracy, and we talked about 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.920 how they started to organize various grassroop groups and movements 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:10.039 from around the world to call for a movement against neoliberalism. 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.320 And what we're going to talk about today is one 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.240 of the mechanisms by which they were able to do 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:16.920 some of that organizing. But I'm still not going to 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:18.320 tell you what we're going to talk about yet. I'm 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:20.680 building it up as if it's like this dramatic reveal, 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:24.119 but I love it. We also talked about the Black 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:27.080 Bloc protesters that started in Germany and spread across Europe 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.159 to the rest of the world, how they provided an 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:33.760 alternative to the existing dichotomy with like either regimented nonviolence 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.359 on one side or like armed guerrilla movements on the 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.760 other side. We talked about the National Lawyer's Guild, and 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:42.640 we talked about street medics and maybe I'm just listening 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:43.839 to all these things because if you like come in 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:45.680 on just this one, they're like, oh wow, all those 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.800 things sound great too. We also talked about street theater 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.240 and giant puppets. But this week we were going to 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:58.080 talk about yet another component of the successful protests, independent media. 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:03.000 This week are going to talk about the decentralized grassroots 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:07.599 collective of independent journalists fundamentally changed our media landscape forever, 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.640 sometimes in ways that made it much worse. This week 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.880 we are talking about indie media I N D Y Media. 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:19.960 You ever heard of them? Hmmm, excellent? Then this will 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.560 be fun. I'm excited. This is the Independent Media Center 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:26.479 or the IMC as no one remembers it. If people 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:28.600 remember it at all, they remember it as indie media, 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.960 spelled with the Y. This is still around, but in 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:38.320 a much diminished form, but its impacts are outsized. I 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.760 am going to draw a direct link from indie media 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.520 to Twitter and therefore the destruction of all of our brains. 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.640 That's my plan today. Oh well, you ever heard of 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.880 Twitter's sorry, that sounded terrible. Certain you've heard of Twitter. 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:52.919 It is like, don't you feel though that Twitter, like, 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.400 even when it was at its biggest, felt a little 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.080 bit too quaint in a way because it was based 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:03.159 on words, you know, like you could feel it being 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:05.520 the last big thing based on sentences. 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.320 Oh interesting, Like it was doomed because it's not going 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.080 to be because the next one was photo and the 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:12.239 next one after that was video. 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.600 Just yeah, this feeling of like this is sort of 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:20.480 like the last gasp of language based sort of viral 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:24.280 media online or language based social media as opposed to 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.080 image based, because you could get really big on Twitter 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.320 as an ugly person, is what I'm really saying here. 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:34.840 That's true, and those doors aren't open anymore. 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:39.280 I hate every single time I have to do video 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.760 for something. Every single time someone's like, hey, can you 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:45.480 promote this thing that you're doing? Sent just just really quick, 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:47.360 just send us a sixty second video of it. And 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.320 I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a that's a real quick. 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.400 You're like, are you telling me to act like a 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.559 normal person? Who's you know, impression of a normal person. 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:57.880 People won't pick apart until I want to leave this 0:07:58.000 --> 0:07:59.800 industry forever. Like that's going to take me. 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.160 I know, I know, I have to either wear makeup 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:06.120 or not. I have to think about it. I gotta 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:08.920 cut my fucking bangs. I gotta like figure out my 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:11.760 lightning and backdrop. It is. 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.560 It's a whole production to be a person. 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.760 It really is, well, especially to be like a similacro 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:19.960 of a person on the internet. Being a person's fine. 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.240 I'll go out in public. Public is fine. It's the 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:23.520 Internet that's a problem. 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:25.840 Well, And you know what I think about with that 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.200 is Nicole Kidman and To Die For. Yeah, you know, 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.320 she plays this character who's like a product of like 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.959 tabloid media and nineties TV news, and she's got this 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:38.640 speech about how like if everyone were on TV, then 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:40.840 everyone would be paved better because we would all be 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.760 being watched all the time. But also if everyone's on TV, 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.720 then who's gonna watch us? And it's like that's what 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:48.520 we're doing right now. 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:53.040 Yeah, that's that's the present. Although I feel like instead 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:55.800 it's just like we've created like weird micro celebrity culture 0:08:55.960 --> 0:09:00.160 and I don't know, I mean not that podcasting me 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.360 into it. But at least it's just my voice. That's 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:03.000 how I feel. 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:08.000 About it, exactly. At least you're not performing in more 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:12.200 ways than the way that you consented to. Maybe that's 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:12.920 appealing to me. 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:16.560 Yeah. All I have to do is get on Mike, 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:19.760 pretend like my day has been wonderful and have energy 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:21.000 for a little while. 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:23.760 That's all I gotta do, or at least pretend like 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.520 my day hasn't been distractingly bad. 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.679 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, And I actually had a nice day 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:33.040 to day, although literally all of my day today was 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:38.959 writing this script to finishing this script. But it was 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:39.560 a nice day. 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.440 But if that's a nice day, Benny, I'm extra excited 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:43.959 for it. 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:45.800 It was a like moment where I was explaining to 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:47.679 someone the thing that I've researched, and I've been like, 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.120 I'm going to explain a really niche topic. I'm glad 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:54.720 I have a good guest. The short version of indie 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:59.400 media is that, basically in the late nineties, at the 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.560 Big Seattle protests against the World Trade Organization November nineteen 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:08.000 ninety nine, people were like, we actually need a media infrastructure, 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.960 We need a structure of independent media. And it actually 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.400 comes out of not just like random people who want 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:19.360 to post conspiracy theory stuff though we'll get to that later, 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:23.640 but it comes out of like people who are journalists 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:26.320 who are like, the existing infrastructure is not going to 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:28.280 work for what we're going to try and do. They 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.120 got together with a bunch of techies and they created 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:37.800 what's not the first status update based website, but the 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:43.280 first big one, the first idea that people can be like, oh, 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.680 this is what happened today, and people can all post 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:51.679 that and share that and see that, and that allowed 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:56.240 the protest movement to accomplish amazing things. It also allowed 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.480 that protest movement to not be disappeared as much by 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:03.960 mainstream media, and it led to a lot of knock 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.240 on effects, and not like an indirect way. I'm going 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:08.880 to like name specific people who are the through line 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:12.720 between the modern social media landscape and this thing that 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:16.520 was put together for some protests. That's the basic idea 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:21.160 of indie media. I love it. Yeah, Indie media was 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:26.120 like my political awakening in a lot of ways. When 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.120 I was a teenager. I was an art student, and 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.040 I was brand new to politics, and I was living 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:33.920 in New York City, and I walked in off the 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.920 street to an Indie Media New York meeting and I 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.440 got to play this like tiny minor part in running 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.720 a newspaper, like a print newspaper that's still around today, 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.439 and join a video collective of people putting together video. 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.800 I just spent all of this time talking trash on video, 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:54.760 but I absolutely well, I didn't worry as much about 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.480 how I looked when I was nineteen years old. A 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:02.480 year later, I was living in Portland, Oregon, and I 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.960 was essentially working full time with the indie media video 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:10.000 collective there. In exchange for shooting and editing videos and 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.080 helping run events, I was given a room in a 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:16.240 tiny apartment over an auto shop, and less than a 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.880 year after dropping out of art school, a film I 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.160 edited sold out a movie theater, and I was giving 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.760 talks at universities to students that were older than me. Wow, 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.680 So I'm really fond of indie media, or I'm really 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.480 fond of what it was in two thousand and two. Man, 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.920 But what is it? Where did it come from? I 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.839 know that you want context. So one of the things 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.520 that comes up all the time when I'm researching this shit, 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.520 and I suspect we didn't talk about what you do. 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:47.679 Oh yeah, you run a podcast called You're wrong about 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:52.120 I Do. You're right about that? Sorry? Oh shit, Oh no, 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:57.160 you're allowed to make terrible jokes about That's true. That's 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:57.840 how that works. 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.480 If you listen to podcast, people have probably like bothered 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:03.400 you about it at some point, and if you're like me, 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.160 then you haven't listened to it, because at some point 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.600 in twenty twenty one you were like, stop bringing this 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.600 show up, is what I would assume. And so either 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:13.520 you have or you haven't listened to it, And if 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.520 you haven't listened to it, then like, look, I'm not 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.320 gonna persuade yet. You get to decide what you do 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:20.200 with your own time. 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:20.880 It's fine. 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.679 But it started off as a show about misremembered history 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.840 and sort of classic tabloid narratives like Tiny Harding and 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.160 Lorraina Bobbitt and stories that we. 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:31.640 Sort of. 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.560 That people sort of like kind of could remember but 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.520 would often sort of remember through USNL parodies, which is 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:40.600 certainly how I learned history. And now it's kind of 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:44.160 expanded into like, you know, I like to talk about 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:48.520 things through that lens of historical misunderstanding and misremembering and 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.040 sort of how the truth gets obscured. But also it's just, 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.200 you know, a show about stuff I find interesting. And 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.040 so our most recent episode that we just put out 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.520 this week is on the history of the Corn Maze. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:01.240 That was so fun for me to do. 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:03.800 You do love corn? That's cool. 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.360 I love Coorn, and I'm okay with mazes. I mainly 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.160 love corn and I had I'm Chelsea Webber Smith who 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.760 loves mazes, and so that even doubt a good fit. 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:17.840 Yeah, that is good. So do you run across this 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.520 thing where people have an idea about how people were 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.560 in the past, and how ideas that we take for 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.720 granted right now people think just like have been around 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:29.600 forever and are actually reasonably new. 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.120 Yeah, I mean, I think one of the really interesting 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.880 sort of aspects of history and historian ship I guess 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:39.920 to me is like things that are way newer than 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.120 we would think, and things that are way more timeless 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.320 as human behavior than we would think, you know, because 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:47.280 I think both of those things occur. 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:49.760 The example that I'm going to use in this script 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.200 although it's not totally related. Is that the idea of 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:57.280 being a homosexual or of being a heterosexual about one 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:58.800 hundred to one hundred and fifty years. 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.800 Old, right, I know, And that's the kind of thing 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.640 that like feels shocking, but also when you think about it, 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:10.280 you're like, hmm, yeah. 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.560 No, totally. The first time someone was like, being straight 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:14.840 a is about one hundred year old idea, I was like, 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:17.600 there's no way that's true. And then I read about 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:19.480 it and I was like, oh, yeah, no, that kind 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:20.720 of makes sense actually. 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:22.400 And then you're like, of course straightness is a new 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:24.360 concept because it's just so weird. 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:25.440 Yeah. 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:28.360 Absolutely, If it were innate, it wouldn't be so hard 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:29.760 to make people, do you know? 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.800 Yeah, totally. If the gender binary is so obvious and natural, 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:35.680 then why do we need laws to enforce it. 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.680 It's a great question. There aren't any laws enforcing gravity, interestingly. 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:45.840 Enough, Yeah, yeah, totally. All objects must fall down. Yeah no, 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:52.479 one's like damn you birds except hunters maybe, but yeah. 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.920 So another idea that is about as old is the 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.320 idea of being gay or straight is the idea of 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:00.920 journalistic objectivity. 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:03.680 Oh boy, yeah, I guess that makes sense. 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.680 The idea that a journalist presents the facts and not 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:11.080 opinions is brand new in the grand scheme of things. 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.160 Yeah see, and I never thought about that. But then 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.520 you're like, yeah, how long of journalists even existed? 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:19.480 For not that long? Yeah no, I don't I know 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.120 about the journalistic objectivity. But now I'm like, I wonder 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:25.520 how long our concept of journalism? I wonder how that is? 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:27.920 Right, or just like you know, if you look at 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:30.800 like the Great you know what like all these dead 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.120 guys who like in cells like to have is their 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.560 profile pictures for some reason, right, like all the dead Greeks. 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.600 I don't know how that happened. But like herodotus, it's like, 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.640 what's history about? It's like, well, you just make stuff 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.760 up mainly, and then you sort of, yeah, it's fun. 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:47.480 Yeah, we start. 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.600 To care about accuracy and academia probably not that long ago. 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.560 Well, what's interesting is the idea of journalistic objectivity. It's 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:58.760 not as like a one sided thing as I actually 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:00.760 kind of would have expected going into this, because it's 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:03.560 not like before this everyone just lied for fun, right, 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.639 But if you go back into the New York Times 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.000 archives and read their nineteenth century reporting, which I've had 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.400 to do a bunch of times for the show. Nay, yeah, 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:17.479 it is blatantly opinionated. And the thing is is that 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:21.280 New York Times is one of the main places that 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:25.840 the concept of objective journalism comes from, just decades elating. 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.040 And now they've come full circle. So that's really good. 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:31.080 Well, that's part of the danger. It's actually part of 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:33.239 why endi media exists, right, is that you have this 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.160 thing where like, oh, we're the objective people. So when 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.679 they have an obvious bias, it's not presented as an 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.639 obvious bias, right, It's presented as the objective truth unless 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.240 it's on the opinion page, you know, which is why 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:50.879 the Onion is the only true newspaper. All journalism is 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:54.560 still biased. Some journalists hide that bias, some journalists try 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.720 to counteract their own biases, and others are a little 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:03.000 bit more blatant about their bias. But journalistic objectivity didn't 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.320 become the standard because it was like better or more moral. 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:09.000 It was because it's sold better. 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.360 Wow, Okay, that's interesting. I would not have thought that. 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.600 I wouldn't have thought it either, and it doesn't always 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.439 sell better, but it was able to stand out in 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.119 the field, because in the eighteen nineties you have a 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.480 lot of like yellow journalism, which is basically tabloid journalism. 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.160 It's the journalism of scandal and half lies and full 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:32.679 lies scandal. That is how if I was a yellow journalist, 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.760 I would tell you that that's how it's pronounced because 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:36.919 it sounds better, it might sell more. 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:38.679 No, you don't have to tell the truth. Yeah, and 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.280 this is like, how important was Hurst in the history 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.120 of yellow journalism. He's like, based on my seventh grade education, 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.159 I assume, So, okay, it's good to know that the. 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:53.000 New York Journal I think was his paper. And yeah, 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:56.360 pullets are in Hurst. Wait, pullets are in Hurst. They 0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:02.000 think we're not. Oh we not. No, it's crazy. We 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.080 did a whole episode. I'm no, I don't think you 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:06.960 were the guests. No, but I was cheering from afar. 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:09.680 We did a whole two parter on the actual newsy strike. 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:11.359 If anyone wants to go back and hear. 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.560 Yeah, everybody should. I mean, it's very inspiring to me. 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.480 How in the actual history you're like, oh, they actually 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:21.679 did like terrify all these industries who were like, oh no, 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.640 we can't let children get this many ideas about labor unions. 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:26.800 This could really screw us. 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:28.680 Yeah, and that's actually a lot of I mean when 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.520 I think back of like twentieth century journalism that claims 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.560 to be very objective and then I see its lies, 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:38.000 it's very rarely that I'm like, ah, they printed things 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:41.640 that were untrue, but instead by like choosing where their 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:44.800 focus is. I'm like, when labor history is written out 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:46.719 of history, you're like, oh, yeah, there's probably some protests 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.960 here and there, you know, And then you're like, oh, 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.840 protest and disruption is like the engine of progress. 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:56.960 Yeah, and that the reaction against it is like the 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:59.479 driving force shaping the world we now live in. 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:00.000 Yeah. 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.399 Absolutely, Yeah, and that like the crime of like lying 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:07.159 by omission is actually seems a lot more serious in 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:07.760 many ways. 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:10.840 Yeah, because it's harder to fact check, right, because you're like, well, 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:12.120 I guess everything you wrote is true. 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.040 God, Yeah, because you can't fact check. Leaving stuff out 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:18.200 of the record, it's just like, well, we had limited space, 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:19.800