Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jemmy.
Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome the Mother Knows Death. On this week's
Speaker 2: External Exam, we will be having our most requested guests,
Speaker 2: my husband, doctor Gabriel, and Jemmy. Hi. Gabriel, welcome to
Speaker 2: the show. Hi.
Speaker 1: Hi, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 2: Is it weird for me to call you Gabriel because
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever called you by your first
Speaker 2: name in the past, only went in.
Speaker 1: Trouble, right, It's the weirdest part is doctor, just don't
Speaker 1: do that.
Speaker 2: Well, we're so proud of your accomplishment. So let's start
Speaker 2: off by talking about the awesome trip that we just took.
Speaker 2: Why do you want to tell everyone why we drove
Speaker 2: across the country for two weeks?
Speaker 1: Well, there was supposed to be just to culminate at graduation, right,
Speaker 1: Like that was the whole plan. Drive out and drive
Speaker 1: back and and like ultimately go to Los Angeles and
Speaker 1: graduate from school. But like, why do that without all
Speaker 1: the awesome stuff? You know?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was so much fun. So why don't you
Speaker 2: tell everybody what you graduated from? Why? Why were we
Speaker 2: going there? Where'd you go to school?
Speaker 1: So I was in an educational doctorate program at USC
Speaker 1: for organizational Change in leadership, sort of like the last
Speaker 1: the last degree conferral in the like a ten year process.
Speaker 1: There's a bachelor's in Public Safety administration, a master's in
Speaker 1: Emergency and Disaster Management, and the organizational Change in Leadership.
Speaker 1: So I just kind of like spread it out a
Speaker 1: little bit, and that's all like a reflection of like
Speaker 1: what I experienced at my job and what i'd like
Speaker 1: to try to like think about. So yeah, it was
Speaker 1: a program that I thought worked for me as a
Speaker 1: professional with like a job and a family that I
Speaker 1: could kind of do and then it just fit right,
Speaker 1: like it was doable. I mean, it was hard as shit,
Speaker 1: but it was it was doable.
Speaker 2: So that's one thing that I wanted to talk to
Speaker 2: you about, is when you go to school for something
Speaker 2: that's really hard and vigorous like this. One of the
Speaker 2: things that we always talk about as a couple is
Speaker 2: how important it is for each other to support each
Speaker 2: other and stuff we're seeing like all the time on
Speaker 2: the news right now. You know, our daughters are like
Speaker 2: major swifties, and all we hear about is Travis and Taylor,
Speaker 2: and you see all these news stories about how they're
Speaker 2: always supporting each other and going to each other's shows
Speaker 2: and concerts and stuff, and they make such a big
Speaker 2: deal about it news and I think it's so weird
Speaker 2: because that's what you're supposed to do when you're in
Speaker 2: a relationship with someone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like certainly it it's complex in a
Speaker 1: different way maybe for the people you mentioned than it
Speaker 1: is for us, but like like like being a normal
Speaker 1: person right where like I'm not flying to your.
Speaker 2: Engagement, You're definitely not a normal person, so just well
Speaker 2: neither am I.
Speaker 1: But you understand what I'm saying. It's just like it's home,
Speaker 1: it's under one roof, and it's just like the understanding
Speaker 1: of that, like I'm going to have to pick up
Speaker 1: X amount of weight while this clown is kind of
Speaker 1: like thinking or like sitting with these ideas over here,
Speaker 1: like he's kind of unavailable for X amount of hours
Speaker 1: a day or even years, right like, and like you've
Speaker 1: got to to kind of know that going into it.
Speaker 1: I swear I asked for permission to do it, right, like,
Speaker 1: even even with it, just like you know, try to
Speaker 1: be a gentleman about it, because like obviously it's going
Speaker 1: to put a big strain on on anyone's relationship. I
Speaker 1: would think, even in the way that like I, you know,
Speaker 1: like kind of push education or like academia on the
Speaker 1: guys I work with, and I will tell them, like,
Speaker 1: you know, and you and I talk all the time about, oh,
Speaker 1: like you're in a good position. You might not have children,
Speaker 1: or like you have where we look at it, like
Speaker 1: we have like all these other kind of responsibilities that
Speaker 1: tend to along with the education aspect, so like and
Speaker 1: everything that comes along with that, right, like mood swings,
Speaker 1: being pissy, just being like fried emotionally or like mentally,
Speaker 1: You've got to be ready to support that and kind
Speaker 1: of like give somebody a wide berth and I, you know,
Speaker 1: now maybe it's your turn. I'm going to push you
Speaker 1: to go back.
Speaker 2: So no, we always Well, let's let's talk about this
Speaker 2: a little bit, because I think that I would consider
Speaker 2: our relationship to be really good and strong now, but
Speaker 2: it wasn't always like that. So let's let's go back
Speaker 2: a little bit to when when we first met. Where
Speaker 2: do where do we meet? We both have kind of
Speaker 2: different stories about how.
Speaker 1: That went down, but I mean there are different stories
Speaker 1: but only mine's accurate. So yeah, I think if I
Speaker 1: remember correctly, certainly the wahwah thing. But like I was
Speaker 1: coming off shift and I lived not too far from one,
Speaker 1: so I would typically stop there every day as I'm
Speaker 1: coming out of work, coming out of the firehouse, like
Speaker 1: a mess of like maybe not sleeping or whatever, like
Speaker 1: ha been just gone fires or whatever, and and like
Speaker 1: getting a coffee and then.
Speaker 2: And then you saw me, and it was like slow
Speaker 2: motion and you were like, there's the girl my dreams
Speaker 2: in this giant like beam of light was over my head.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's that's fairly accurate, except for like
Speaker 1: what came.
Speaker 2: All after that, except for none of it.
Speaker 1: She might she might be the girl of my dreams,
Speaker 1: but she's like a crazy person.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: But but so like my take on that is I
Speaker 1: happen to just bullshit with you, like hey, uh, I
Speaker 1: thought you had a ring on or something, and I
Speaker 1: was just like, you have a sister or something like that,
Speaker 1: like just trying to make small talk.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had my I had my key ring around
Speaker 2: my hands because I was getting my cup of coffee,
Speaker 2: and he thought it was a wedding ring. And then
Speaker 2: he was like oh, are there any single girls like
Speaker 2: you who aren't married?
Speaker 1: No? You, it was something I have a sister, right,
Speaker 1: like no.
Speaker 2: But you said like are there any girls like you
Speaker 2: that aren't married or something like that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So so there's the whole like I'm not married response,
Speaker 1: and then I'm up against it like, oh, well, like
Speaker 1: now I guess I'm I'm sort of like stuck here
Speaker 1: with this conversation this guy. Yeah. So, so we bullshitted
Speaker 1: in the store and that kind of like spilled out
Speaker 1: into the parking lot, and then that became like a
Speaker 1: normal occurrence.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: It was like I would run into you there often.
Speaker 1: I felt like, you know here.
Speaker 2: Or there ye before every day exchanges.
Speaker 1: So having said that every day bit, I'd be remiss
Speaker 1: if I didn't bring in Maria's version of this. That
Speaker 1: was more or less like you saw me one day
Speaker 1: there that I didn't see you, and then like Maria
Speaker 1: was rushed every morning trying to get to school and
Speaker 1: like you were late to pick other people up and
Speaker 1: you were this or that, like as you were stalking
Speaker 1: me at the wah wah, like waiting for me to
Speaker 1: show up and get coffee. Like that was That's like my.
Speaker 2: Version I don't. I don't know if Maria ever collaborated
Speaker 2: that story.
Speaker 1: But well you don't on another podcast where like this
Speaker 1: can kind of like go down a rabbit hole on
Speaker 1: another thing or whatever. But like you asked Maria and
Speaker 1: see what she says, and I'm going to be like
Speaker 1: I'm winning.
Speaker 2: You have the story all wrong. Okay. So so the
Speaker 2: first day that we met, we exchanged numbers that day actually,
Speaker 2: and then we went out on a date a couple
Speaker 2: of days later. You didn't have a cell phone yet,
Speaker 2: so I called I had to call your house. Yeah, right,
Speaker 2: so I either had to call your house or email
Speaker 2: you email. So we went and we went on our
Speaker 2: first date, and if I thought it was pretty good.
Speaker 2: We went out to dinner, and then you drove us
Speaker 2: to Ocean City and and then we left and I
Speaker 2: and we like had to make out sessh. And then
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this guy is awesome. I was
Speaker 2: like s into him, and and then he, you know,
Speaker 2: just started being weird for like the next forever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but like till up until like right this very second, like.
Speaker 2: For like three whole years, just terrible, just we just
Speaker 2: couldn't get it together.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I was plenty together, but like you
Speaker 1: were in a big rush, like and I just was
Speaker 1: on my own timeline and kind of like you can
Speaker 1: even ask the cats at the firehouse, like, yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a few I would even say out loud, like these
Speaker 1: guys would hear me talk and be like, oh, this
Speaker 1: girl's rad, Like I think she's solid or whatever, like
Speaker 1: this could be it, Like I think I might have
Speaker 1: found her, and like she's exactly it, but like she's
Speaker 1: just in such a damn hurry to like you know, well.
Speaker 2: If I was so rad, why why not harry?
Speaker 1: Like because I just had like the terrible views on
Speaker 1: on like long term permanency and marriage, I guess stemming
Speaker 1: from my childhood.
Speaker 2: But like, oh, but now that you're getting it out,
Speaker 2: at least we know with the problem. Yeah, well but
Speaker 2: it so it was. It was rough for a couple
Speaker 2: of years. And that's one of the things that I
Speaker 2: wanted to talk about, was I feel like, I mean
Speaker 2: we've almost in July. We have met like sixteen years ago.
Speaker 2: That was a long time ago, a long time ago,
Speaker 2: and I think that it was a combination of like
Speaker 2: me trying to rush you and you not communicating your
Speaker 2: fears about things. That is why it took so long
Speaker 2: for us to like jive. And then when we finally
Speaker 2: communicated better and then we started really trusting each other,
Speaker 2: like telling each other our like deepest darkest secrets and stuff,
Speaker 2: that's when that's when things got really good between us.
Speaker 2: But it took a long time to get to that
Speaker 2: point for sure.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's easy for me to think about
Speaker 1: the idea of like mutual trust like in the firehouse
Speaker 1: or on the fire ground or something like that, like,
Speaker 1: but with the relationship, it just wasn't like it just
Speaker 1: wasn't like something that I was really looking at or
Speaker 1: like considering it all. So so like I feel like
Speaker 1: once I sort of took the principles of that from work,
Speaker 1: which is maybe reverse engineering it or whatever. But like
Speaker 1: once you understand that concept and the team idea and trust,
Speaker 1: like then it's sort of like all downhill from there,
Speaker 1: I guess.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that we that's our biggest thing
Speaker 2: is that we work as a team. One of the
Speaker 2: things that you always hear about your friends complaining and
Speaker 2: stuff relationships is like this one does too much, this
Speaker 2: one doesn't do enough. And you hear about like these
Speaker 2: male female roles and stuff, and Gabe and I are
Speaker 2: very like, like Gabe does all the laundry for our
Speaker 2: entire house, all the kids, me, everybody. I don't even
Speaker 2: really know how to work the washing machine, and I
Speaker 2: mow the lawn. But then we also do very traditional
Speaker 2: things like I cooked dinner every night and you I
Speaker 2: refuse to take out the trash unless you're at work,
Speaker 2: of course, but that's like not my job. So we
Speaker 2: were very good with those sort of yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean that the roles are sort of like it's
Speaker 1: like the off sideline in soccer, right, like it floats,
Speaker 1: like some days it's over here, some days it's over there,
Speaker 1: and like I have no problem kind of like like
Speaker 1: I think we just fell into roles like that where
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, it's obvious that like Nicole doesn't like
Speaker 1: to do laundry.
Speaker 2: Right, So like wait, why was it obvious?
Speaker 1: Well, because it just stacks off and then it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, and I know where this comes from, like
Speaker 1: actually had to. I probably not blast mom, mom or whatever,
Speaker 1: but you know how you two, you and Marie would
Speaker 1: always go on these tangents about the towels, right, And
Speaker 1: I used to think it was just so wild. I'm like,
Speaker 1: why would there ever be like a stack? So she
Speaker 1: tells me like and it was really interesting insight. She's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: we would just think that like it was one towel
Speaker 1: per shower, like and we would just throw them on
Speaker 1: the floor. And I'm thinking, like, well, that's what people do,
Speaker 1: like at the Hampton, right, like you use it once
Speaker 1: or you throw it down, and even the Hampton puts
Speaker 1: the signs up like hey, so we don't have to
Speaker 1: wash these repeatedly, like you know, you can dry this
Speaker 1: and use it again. Like I just I had this
Speaker 1: conversation with a towel with your middle child earlier. It's
Speaker 1: like so I'm like, oh so so like she just
Speaker 1: wants to stack it up and stack it up, and
Speaker 1: like there's going to have this like made idea like
Speaker 1: the maid will come and take care of it or
Speaker 1: somebody else. So I'm just like I'm taking care of
Speaker 1: that because if I don't, nobody's going to. And like
Speaker 1: that's what I mean. It just sort of like it
Speaker 1: becomes an understanding and like it's maybe not even verbal.
Speaker 1: It's like a non verbal thing and you figure it
Speaker 1: out and you just stort of like act accordingly.
Speaker 2: It's kind of funny how a lot of the problems
Speaker 2: that you have in your relationship as you get older
Speaker 2: are kind of stemmed from things that you grew up
Speaker 2: thinking was completely normal.
Speaker 1: As I have so many problems.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. But then when you really get to know
Speaker 2: your partner and you get and you get to kind
Speaker 2: of like dissect all that out and see like, well,
Speaker 2: why are they doing that? Well, like you were just
Speaker 2: describing with something simple like the towels, Like I don't know,
Speaker 2: I just thought that was normal kind of you know,
Speaker 2: I grew up like that. And and that's like when
Speaker 2: people say that you can't change in relationships and stuff,
Speaker 2: I totally disagree with that.
Speaker 1: I do too, And I think that like and I'm
Speaker 1: certainly no like relationship like guru or whatever, right, but
Speaker 1: like I think the thing with it that I would
Speaker 1: take away is like patience, right, Like you can't figure
Speaker 1: that out if you're just like willing to call it
Speaker 1: quits really quickly and be like you know what I'm
Speaker 1: done here, Like this is bullshit. There's something that really
Speaker 1: brought you to that person or kept you around that person, Like,
Speaker 1: then you've got to just start like navigating the stuff
Speaker 1: that you don't like. Just because you don't like X,
Speaker 1: Y and Z doesn't necessarily mean that you need to
Speaker 1: just call it quits, right, Like it's it takes work,
Speaker 1: like and you need to develop an understanding, and if
Speaker 1: you're like not spending time figuring that out and putting
Speaker 1: the energy into it, then like you're you're not going
Speaker 1: to get it back.
Speaker 2: Right Like, Yeah, and that could be said about lots
Speaker 2: of different aspects of life, like going to school and
Speaker 2: quitting like things.
Speaker 1: That's all connected.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like anything that's hard you have to work
Speaker 2: hard for, and a marriage is really hard work. I
Speaker 2: feel like now it's a lot easier for us because
Speaker 2: we kind of but I mean we've been together for.
Speaker 1: I think it is a lot of time. And to
Speaker 1: your point earlier, like it was very difficult at least
Speaker 1: for me, and I'm sure I drove you mad, but
Speaker 1: like for me personally, like it was hard because these
Speaker 1: are concepts and like things where like I just I
Speaker 1: never had that. There was never an example of that
Speaker 1: from my from my end, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: My parents were divorced when I was very young, and
Speaker 1: like it was just a constant battle between the two
Speaker 1: of them, and like, so that's what I knew, right,
Speaker 1: Like I didn't really know what the other side of
Speaker 1: that looked like. So if you're going to ever figure
Speaker 1: that out, you need to spend some time in that
Speaker 1: box and like trust the other person and like kind
Speaker 1: of get over yourself or whatever your weird ideas might
Speaker 1: be of like what a relationship is or should be.
Speaker 1: You know, if you don't know, you don't know.
Speaker 2: And I think for anybody that's that's in a situation
Speaker 2: where their partner grew up in a non traditional type
Speaker 2: of home without that, it's it's very it's very hard
Speaker 2: for me to think, like, if you don't one percent
Speaker 2: trust like your parents, how could you really trust anyone
Speaker 2: else in the world if your parents are your number
Speaker 2: one right people that you're supposed to trust. And for me,
Speaker 2: like I, you know, I grew up with my mom
Speaker 2: and dad were always there and stuff, so it was
Speaker 2: hard for me to grasp like why you were acting
Speaker 2: in certain ways. And then once we kind of got
Speaker 2: on board with that, I think it and and it
Speaker 2: also helps us with our kids now, like what we
Speaker 2: think is important for them, And the one of the
Speaker 2: biggest things is that we don't want to fight in
Speaker 2: front of them. We don't really fight because you just
Speaker 2: know that I'm always right.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we don't. I mean you get you
Speaker 2: get on my nerves for sure, and I get on
Speaker 2: your nerves.
Speaker 1: But I'm sure I get on everybody's right. Like I
Speaker 1: have that shirt somewhere that says I'm not for everyone,
Speaker 1: Like that's this is like very true, especially for you.
Speaker 1: But like like the fun thing is like in a
Speaker 1: way that you can leverage my job at least I
Speaker 1: disappear for a shift, right, so like or if I
Speaker 1: go work a mutually like whatever, like you'll get space.
Speaker 1: So like even if we're heated about something or you're
Speaker 1: super pissed, like you might give me the cold shoulder
Speaker 1: for upwards of a week, but at some point, like
Speaker 1: it works itself out, right, Yeah, I mean, I.
Speaker 2: Mean we were just together for like three weeks and
Speaker 2: it was kind of weird when you went to work.
Speaker 2: I was like, well, this is weird. You were around
Speaker 2: every single day, and it just it's just getting easier
Speaker 2: as it does. We learn.
Speaker 1: It's the one thing I would say, like, you know
Speaker 1: you're young, you think you get a career and everything
Speaker 1: just gets easier and you afford your bill whatever like.
Speaker 2: It.
Speaker 1: Like that's not true, Like things just keep getting more
Speaker 1: and more complicated or harder and harder. But when you
Speaker 1: do put the work in, I mean, the relationship itself,
Speaker 1: I think has gotten easier and easier, and like you know,
Speaker 1: and maybe some of the stuff that we'll discuss later
Speaker 1: like sort of plays into this, but but we'll get
Speaker 1: to that. I guess as far as like like jobs
Speaker 1: and like professional life impacting, yeah, you know, the home life.
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk a little bit about education, because you're
Speaker 2: super into academia now and you just got your doctorate.
Speaker 2: I'm super but you're but you you're you're forty eight
Speaker 2: and just got your doctorate right now, So clearly you
Speaker 2: had a huge life before being forty eight years old.
Speaker 2: You're a little bit older than the traditional student that
Speaker 2: goes right from high school. So let's talk about because
Speaker 2: this is something that I think would be encouraging because
Speaker 2: we have similar stories as to how we grew up
Speaker 2: and we were kind of marked as being like the
Speaker 2: dumb kid, and how we didn't really ever get pushed
Speaker 2: to go to college. And that's partially because our parents
Speaker 2: are from a blue collar background. And you know, my
Speaker 2: dad was a mechanic. My mom stayed home with us
Speaker 2: most of the time, and she didn't go to college
Speaker 2: until we were much older. Your your mom was a
Speaker 2: homemaker too, and then your dad was a fireman. So
Speaker 2: let's talk about when when you went to school, Like,
Speaker 2: you weren't really into school when you went to school, right,
Speaker 2: grade school?
Speaker 1: No, And they, like, to my father's credit, he worked
Speaker 1: multiple side jobs, right, so my sister and I could
Speaker 1: be afforded like a parochial school education, right, Like, they
Speaker 1: understood the importance of education, while they might not have
Speaker 1: understood the importance of like the things we already talked about,
Speaker 1: like not fighting in front of it, like you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like, but they did understand that to
Speaker 1: some extent, at least in that it was like like
Speaker 1: maybe the typical or the appropriately trending thing to do.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I wasn't a huge fan of school.
Speaker 1: Once I found a skateboard, Baseball went by the wayside,
Speaker 1: soccer went by the wayside, and and then like largely
Speaker 1: school or anything formal, right, like anybody telling me what
Speaker 1: to do, like I mean, walking down Sass Street, I
Speaker 1: think I might have been eleven years old. My father,
Speaker 1: we took me, We parked, We parked our truck at
Speaker 1: eleven's Philly fire department right there at South and whatever
Speaker 1: ninth maybe, And like I'm walking down the street as
Speaker 1: a very young kid, seeing people like sleeping in doorways
Speaker 1: and like sort of with this punk rock haircut and everything,
Speaker 1: I was just like, you know, the hell with every
Speaker 1: single person's rules. I'm just you know, doing whatever I want,
Speaker 1: which is like super liberating but also like really self
Speaker 1: destructive and kind of like childish in a way. But
Speaker 1: but like I got rooted in that, and and I'd
Speaker 1: circle back that, you know, eventually with this conversation. But
Speaker 1: I was happy to get out of school at eighteen.
Speaker 1: It was like I barely graduated high school. I was
Speaker 1: on the work release program. I got thrown out of
Speaker 1: a parochial school in my junior year and went to
Speaker 1: a public school, which probably helped me get a you know,
Speaker 1: a high school diploma. And like my last year. The
Speaker 1: only reason why I was able to pull that off
Speaker 1: because I probably would have dropped out like a boatload
Speaker 1: of my friends were doing and just you know, try
Speaker 1: to get a GD if that. But I was in
Speaker 1: a work release program. I went and I was a
Speaker 1: sandwich artist, you know, at subway around the corner from
Speaker 1: my home, and I did that, and doing that helped
Speaker 1: keep me in school, but getting me out at like
Speaker 1: noon every day where you know, I'd work a few
Speaker 1: hours at the job and then I can get on
Speaker 1: this skateboard and go like to Philly or whatever at skateboard.
Speaker 1: So twenty years goes by before I even consum are
Speaker 1: going back to school, right. I graduated high school in
Speaker 1: ninety four and i'd start Newman I think in fourteen,
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2: So and what was like, do you know what the
Speaker 2: final thing was that was like I have to do
Speaker 2: this now? Like what was the final push? Because we
Speaker 2: always hear about even friends of ours and also just
Speaker 2: people that message me on Instagram or people in the
Speaker 2: grosser room that they'll just say, I really feel like
Speaker 2: I want to do this, but they just they just
Speaker 2: don't have that thing that like pushes them to start.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'd consider myself to be like good at
Speaker 1: like usually good at finishing things. I start right and
Speaker 1: like once I'm interested in something, I'm as you will know,
Speaker 1: I'm like I'm all in on something like whatever that
Speaker 1: might be, even if it doesn't persist or last a
Speaker 1: long time, like I'm still all in while I'm actually
Speaker 1: doing it. And so like the academic thing, it it
Speaker 1: was maybe around twenty eleven, right, because like I said,
Speaker 1: I started Newman in twenty fourteen, but I probably started
Speaker 1: trying to go back to school sooner than that. So
Speaker 1: and like here's a loose bid on it. The City
Speaker 1: of Camden police department was being undone, so you get
Speaker 1: you get the governory. He comes in, he slashes state aid,
Speaker 1: so like the city and this is all very like summary, right,
Speaker 1: the transitional aid from the state to the city is
Speaker 1: like gone, like overnight, he shuts that off. And then
Speaker 1: like so the city has to make up huge budget holes, right,
Speaker 1: and like one of the ways they did that was
Speaker 1: by lanoff firemen and demoting firemen and or firefighters, right,
Speaker 1: and then they just completely disbanded like one hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty year old police force. I don't know how old
Speaker 1: they were at the time, but so the City of
Speaker 1: Candon police goes away and then like the next day
Speaker 1: it's Camden County Police. Right. So this is twenty eleven,
Speaker 1: and you know, I remember thinking. There was a lot
Speaker 1: of talk about like they're going to do that same
Speaker 1: exact thing with the fire department, you know, and I'm
Speaker 1: over here like I think everything's good. I'm like really
Speaker 1: getting into my job. I think I'm good at it.
Speaker 1: I enjoy doing it. I've taken tons and tons of
Speaker 1: like classes for hands on stuff, very tactical based things
Speaker 1: like learning how to do this or do that. And
Speaker 1: it just got to the point where like, hey, if
Speaker 1: they undid this fire department and like all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: they're going to be a county model tomorrow. Like what
Speaker 1: do I bring to the table, They're going to look
Speaker 1: at me on paper and be like, yeah, Like who's
Speaker 1: this cat? Like he nothing right, like barely graduated high school,
Speaker 1: is like good at his job, but like he's a
Speaker 1: sick time abuser, or he hasn't been around much, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Or he's just kind of like
Speaker 1: this insubordinate punk rock kid, like with a bunch of tattoos. Right,
Speaker 1: So so it was like a very deliberate move. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's going to happen for sure
Speaker 1: or not, but like let me kind of like dabble
Speaker 1: with this, so I head towards you know, like what
Speaker 1: most people in the fire service do. It was like
Speaker 1: in associates in fire science or something like that. So
Speaker 1: I'm immediately disgruntled. While I try to do that. I
Speaker 1: test into Candon County College and what do you know,
Speaker 1: they won't even put me in college classes, right, Like
Speaker 1: that wasn't unexpected on my part. But like I published
Speaker 1: articles in like Fire Engineering and Urban Firefighter magazine, Like
Speaker 1: I'm a published author in trade magazines, and you know,
Speaker 1: Candon County told me I had to go to like
Speaker 1: Writing Skills three or something instead of like college level courses, right,
Speaker 1: But I wasn't deterred, Like, so I start with these
Speaker 1: and then like at some point I promoted right now,
Speaker 1: and I'm skipping forward some years is twenty fourteen, I
Speaker 1: promote to captain and I get my first assignment as
Speaker 1: Engine eleven. And my friend Max stops by the firehouse
Speaker 1: and he's in Cohort one at Newman program, and he
Speaker 1: basically explains to me, like how he got in and
Speaker 1: how he took like is all this prerec stuff that
Speaker 1: he like had been doing with hands on classes and
Speaker 1: how they kind of like do that with the registrar
Speaker 1: and they'd like convert you know, hours of education into
Speaker 1: CEUs or whatever, and like I'm not going to go
Speaker 1: into depth on that, but I basically went to Newman.
Speaker 1: I met doctor Donnelley, and thank god, she kind of
Speaker 1: explained it to me and then sent me like immediately
Speaker 1: on the path home to like take these I had
Speaker 1: like a three inch stack of stuff, right, like just
Speaker 1: hours and hours and hundreds of hours of courses from
Speaker 1: like you know, the State's task Force for the user
Speaker 1: urban search and rescue work and like all the training
Speaker 1: and all the hands on stuff you'd put in, and
Speaker 1: they converted it and like I wound up being just
Speaker 1: shy in ninety credits through their matrix to get into
Speaker 1: that program. And so I did it, and then like
Speaker 1: I had to acquire a few things like what do
Speaker 1: they call that you might know? Is a clip? Does
Speaker 1: sound right? Is that the word? Like to to get
Speaker 1: like a couple of credits that I needed to like
Speaker 1: meet the ninety I was like around eighty six or
Speaker 1: something like with the way they converted it all, and
Speaker 1: then so I I start that program and then it
Speaker 1: was on like all of a sudden, I just found
Speaker 1: this thing where I'm like, oh, man like, and that's
Speaker 1: the difference in doing it as like a grown up,
Speaker 1: right as you're not a child anymore. Like you're not
Speaker 1: like being told to do this, Like it's intrinsic motivation
Speaker 1: and it's steering you to like be the best version
Speaker 1: of yourself. So it's not like and the sucks, I
Speaker 1: gotta go here. All I want to do is wright
Speaker 1: a skateboard. And now it's like no, Like, the stuff
Speaker 1: I'm learning right now is helping me better be better
Speaker 1: at work, like, and therefore I'm more affective with the
Speaker 1: people I'm around, and I'm more effective with the civilians
Speaker 1: in the city. Right, Like, it just it just starts
Speaker 1: to grow, and like your mind expands and you just
Speaker 1: start seeing things that were like completely lost to you,
Speaker 1: if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I feel the same way. Like it's
Speaker 2: you're doing something that you want to do, that you choose,
Speaker 2: that you're interested in. You're just not reading some stupid
Speaker 2: book because your teacher told you to. It's like all
Speaker 2: it's all about what you want and the same exact thing,
Speaker 2: like your your story could be the same as mine.
Speaker 2: It's just like a different field.
Speaker 1: That I want into Yeah, I don't think it is
Speaker 1: too much different. And like, from an artistic standpoint, I
Speaker 1: remember being turned on, like the one year we drove
Speaker 1: my friend Matt and Kevin and Ryan we drove to
Speaker 1: We started in San Diego and then headed up to
Speaker 1: San Francisco. This is not ninety seven or something, but
Speaker 1: it was all about skateboarding and Serge was with us,
Speaker 1: and like, I started reading on the Road and I
Speaker 1: was like, man like on the Road by Jack Harrowuth,
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm like.
Speaker 2: Which I hate, I wasn't going to go there, but.
Speaker 1: But like I'm like, man like, I had no idea
Speaker 1: that that like writing a book or reading a book
Speaker 1: could be like enjoyable like this, or could like make
Speaker 1: you think about life or existence in like a in
Speaker 1: a way you know, where where it was actually fun
Speaker 1: or cool, you know. And that's I think just something
Speaker 1: that a lot of people miss because maybe it is
Speaker 1: just because they're being told to do it, you know,
Speaker 1: or it's just kind of thrust upon them whether they
Speaker 1: like it or not, and until they find that one
Speaker 1: thing that makes it all click, whatever that might be,
Speaker 1: they miss they miss out on.
Speaker 2: I do think that I've seen a difference with a
Speaker 2: little bit of that with our kids going to school
Speaker 2: now that they are a little bit more open to
Speaker 2: them reading things that they're interested in and as well
Speaker 2: as audio books are a big thing that they're okay with.
Speaker 2: When when we were kids, remember it used to be
Speaker 2: able to get like a book on tape right at
Speaker 2: the library that was super frowned upon, like you were
Speaker 2: not It was like cheating if you read a book
Speaker 2: in that way. And now it's it's considered to be okay.
Speaker 2: Because I'm more of an audio learner, as you know,
Speaker 2: It's very hard for me to sit down and read
Speaker 2: a book, but I could listen to a book and
Speaker 2: get a lot out of it. And it's cool at
Speaker 2: least to see that the struggles that we went through,
Speaker 2: maybe the kids are progressing a little bit now with it.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think that would start with us
Speaker 1: and them seeing us do it or at least talking
Speaker 1: about it in a positive light, like I certainly never
Speaker 1: like like that was not the case at my house
Speaker 1: growing up as a kid. It was very you know,
Speaker 1: autocratic and authoritative. Yeah, right, So, so I think the
Speaker 1: example is obviously impacting them, like in a positive way.
Speaker 1: But but I definitely would agree. I felt like an
Speaker 1: audiobook was cheating. I felt like it wasn't like if
Speaker 1: you weren't sitting here stressing over the lines. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm the guy who would find himself having to read
Speaker 1: the same page three times to comprehend it, right, And
Speaker 1: that's like as I got more into education and understanding
Speaker 1: how you know, people's cognitive abilities differ and like how
Speaker 1: you know even trauma can impact that. It's it's hell
Speaker 1: to me understand that. Like, no, like audio books are great,
Speaker 1: like and now I'm the quote unquote nerd who will
Speaker 1: have the tangible book and listen to it on audible
Speaker 1: and then like get the book and highlight the stuff, right,
Speaker 1: So like I do it both ways. Like learning is
Speaker 1: amazing and that like in a meta kind of way,
Speaker 1: like if you learn how you learn personally, like you
Speaker 1: can really make like like fire for effect at that point,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when we were kids, so it was just
Speaker 2: like this is the way you learn. It doesn't matter
Speaker 2: like if you feel this way or whatever, Like we
Speaker 2: all just do one thing right, and it is changing.
Speaker 2: It's not fast enough, but it is a little good.
Speaker 1: It's not changing fast enough and it's largely still probably
Speaker 1: counterproductive in a way. But but there's people who are
Speaker 1: looking at that closely and doing a lot of really
Speaker 1: awesome work that I doubt we have the time to
Speaker 1: get into here, but like you know, I'll digress all
Speaker 1: day long, and I know, like Maria's got us on
Speaker 1: a tight time schedule here.
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Speaker 2: All right, let's talk about Since you were just talking
Speaker 2: about art and everything, I think that we're again in
Speaker 2: a similar situation that we both consider ourselves to be
Speaker 2: artists and very artistic people, but we have these professions
Speaker 2: like I have pathology and the world of medicine. And
Speaker 2: then you have firefighting, and both of those professions are
Speaker 2: not traditionally one that an artist would have. So what
Speaker 2: do you do to kind of like let out that outlet?
Speaker 2: I get through it with like writing and decorating our
Speaker 2: house and things like that, but like what do you
Speaker 2: do to get that out?
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like all I really do for
Speaker 1: an artistic outlet anymore is just photography. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, I do write quite a bit, and it'll
Speaker 1: be kind of fun to like not have to write
Speaker 1: academically anymore and like kind of develop some other stuff
Speaker 1: on my own that I that I'd prefer to do
Speaker 1: rather than what I should be doing. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: like artistically speaking, I'm obviously preferring art over science all
Speaker 1: day long. I'm sort of into that like lived experiences
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And I don't know, it's like when
Speaker 1: we met, I remember my basement had flowed, and like
Speaker 1: I had like a large show's worth of stuff floating
Speaker 1: around in my basement, and I, you know, all the
Speaker 1: stuff that I was making at the time, not photography obviously,
Speaker 1: but like I just was like, you know what, Like
Speaker 1: I think I salvaged a few things out of that
Speaker 1: and just kind of moved on from it, So like
Speaker 1: that was an outlet that I wish I could have
Speaker 1: kept all that and like worked harder sort of like
Speaker 1: figure all that out, but like I just basically left
Speaker 1: it there. It was like a really difficult time in
Speaker 1: my life that I just I guess I had to
Speaker 1: get over it, and I just sort of counted all
Speaker 1: that art where that expression is like a casualty of
Speaker 1: all that, like like we're hitting the reset button right now,
Speaker 1: and like all this stuff is just going with it.
Speaker 1: So basically it's just mostly photography now, but like obviously
Speaker 1: there's other stuff I do. I like going out and
Speaker 1: doing this and that. So that's the main thing.
Speaker 2: I think. One thing that you might not even realize
Speaker 2: is like it's the biggest art project that you've done
Speaker 2: in the past couple of years, is what you've done
Speaker 2: with your firehouse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I certainly would consider that in our project.
Speaker 1: Everybody that's stopped by friends of mine, but they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's like a museum in here.
Speaker 2: Whatever.
Speaker 1: It's like I do rather, that's a large compliment for me.
Speaker 1: And that's just you know, once you get started on something,
Speaker 1: you don't really realize like where it's headed or what
Speaker 1: it's going. It's kind of just like this thing that
Speaker 1: builds like daily and then there's like maybe lulls in
Speaker 1: it and then like explosions where it's like it's like right,
Speaker 1: And that's not obviously, that's not just me, Like there's
Speaker 1: several people there that have like absolutely been all in
Speaker 1: on that idea also, So I would never want to
Speaker 1: claim that as my own, but like the firehouse itself
Speaker 1: has been a bit of an artistic endeavor and sort
Speaker 1: of release, and I think it's awesome, Like it's it's
Speaker 1: a great place to go and work now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think just to explain to everybody what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about, like the firehouse was just a regular
Speaker 2: old firehouse, not too many things hanging up, and now
Speaker 2: it's he has collected all of these pics from guys
Speaker 2: that work there over the years and they're hung up
Speaker 2: all over the place. It's when you go visit now,
Speaker 2: it's there's something to do there, a lot to do
Speaker 2: to look and it's cool that you're bringing the history
Speaker 2: of the firehouse back and it's kind of on display
Speaker 2: in such a very visual appealing thing to look at.
Speaker 2: It looks awesome.
Speaker 1: There Yeah, I just think a lot of that was
Speaker 1: kind of missing. And you know, again with the whole
Speaker 1: thing we're speaking about on like letting the other side
Speaker 1: of your relationship kind of go and like find these things, right,
Speaker 1: like like how many hours did I go to city
Speaker 1: Hall and like pull up a journal and like have
Speaker 1: to read through it for hours to find like the
Speaker 1: one thing that I needed to do like a project, Right,
Speaker 1: So that maybe kind of plays into the relationship thing
Speaker 1: also that we were talking about earlier. But it's been
Speaker 1: really cool and I dig it, and I and hopefully
Speaker 1: everybody else that works there kind of digs it too.
Speaker 1: So that's like the benefit of it is that we
Speaker 1: all do it together. Everybody's tracking it. They're all very
Speaker 1: aware of our history and like what it means, and
Speaker 1: like it actually has a really positive impact when we
Speaker 1: go out on the street and do things. So it's
Speaker 1: like it looks cool, but it also has like a
Speaker 1: very sort of tangible byproduct.
Speaker 2: One of the things that we have in common, which
Speaker 2: you wouldn't necessarily think we would because we have two
Speaker 2: separate professions. But you see a lot of dead people
Speaker 2: at your job, and so do I obviously, so it's
Speaker 2: something that we can talk about. I think that maybe
Speaker 2: for an average fireman that's just married to someone that
Speaker 2: maybe isn't in a kind of field like mine, it's
Speaker 2: not something that they can go home and discuss like, oh,
Speaker 2: I found this decomposed guy floating in the river kind
Speaker 2: of thing and describing the smell and everything, whereas I'm
Speaker 2: like giving me more details I wanted to do. I
Speaker 2: want to know, so what kind of effect does it
Speaker 2: has to have some kind of effect on you seeing
Speaker 2: people in their worst situations.
Speaker 1: Not to cut you off, but I would make a
Speaker 1: couple of points on there, and like you know, unfortunately
Speaker 1: the fire service is sort of stuck in some old ways,
Speaker 1: at least from my perspective. Sometimes that the idea that
Speaker 1: like I would protect my family from like what I'm
Speaker 1: seeing and doing and like not telling them about it,
Speaker 1: I think is like the old idea of you don't
Speaker 1: need to know that, and like I got that, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to put that on my shoulders and just
Speaker 1: carry that weight and like kind of keep you ignorant
Speaker 1: to it, like deliberately, you know what I'm saying, Like
Speaker 1: you don't need to know.
Speaker 2: That, you don't write, which I know I know that
Speaker 2: there's some environment that do that.
Speaker 1: And a friend of mine had recently mentioned, like, you know,
Speaker 1: a family problem where they were sort of being told
Speaker 1: by their partner that they've changed and this and then
Speaker 1: and I mean, like, look, it's it's not it's not
Speaker 1: an easy thing to do or to deal with all
Speaker 1: the time, and it's I would imagine pretty different for
Speaker 1: every person to manage that. And it's not just that
Speaker 1: like maybe one of those things is just like the
Speaker 1: last straw, because something else in my life is like
Speaker 1: a really like a challenge, like and like to go
Speaker 1: back to what I was saying when I was having
Speaker 1: the problems when I you know what, it's a seven
Speaker 1: two thousand and six seven, you know, family deaths or
Speaker 1: people going away from your life, whether that was like
Speaker 1: you know, a parent or a grandmom or a girlfriend,
Speaker 1: whatever it might be. You know, and then that also
Speaker 1: has an impact. So like if you're kind of like
Speaker 1: already sort of down and then like you go to
Speaker 1: work and have to deal with something like it just
Speaker 1: it will quickly kind of like build, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, and like kind of cascade into this thing
Speaker 1: that you can't get out from under, if that makes sense,
Speaker 1: and to go back to the art thing. I remember
Speaker 1: I had this my friend Dennis McGrath who brought me
Speaker 1: to Ed Templeton's house, and I remember talking with Ed
Speaker 1: and he was like we were talking about photography, you know,
Speaker 1: and he's like I was, you know, I'm like trying
Speaker 1: to explain it to him, who like how I would delineate,
Speaker 1: like I try to keep my art and my career separate,
Speaker 1: you know, And he was just like, well, like, why
Speaker 1: would you do that? It seems like you're in a
Speaker 1: great place to make art, you know. And it was
Speaker 1: like it was the conversation that I needed to sort
Speaker 1: of realize that I could combine these passions of mine
Speaker 1: and sort of like get better at each, you know,
Speaker 1: like it wasn't like this crazy buying, you know, a
Speaker 1: binary thing. So so I had that conversation and then
Speaker 1: it was like that actually started helping me. I want
Speaker 1: to say that was in twenty eleven ish. It helped
Speaker 1: me just kind of understand not just like myself, but
Speaker 1: like my surrounding environment and how those things were going
Speaker 1: to impact other people. And to circle back to what
Speaker 1: I was saying about, you know, trying to keep things
Speaker 1: separate and this idea that the fire service would just
Speaker 1: be like we're just going to hold that in. Like
Speaker 1: I feel like it's like an antiquated idea of keeping
Speaker 1: things secret from like your spouse or your partner or
Speaker 1: your children. Like maybe the children I would still you know,
Speaker 1: they don't need to know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think sometimes we're talking and I'm.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, for sure, and and I'm just kind of
Speaker 1: like at this point, like I've kind of become an
Speaker 1: open book, so like I don't want to hide anything,
Speaker 1: but the idea that we would protect our spouse or
Speaker 1: our significant others from like what we're doing at work
Speaker 1: is not helpful. Like it's just it's like it's a
Speaker 1: really bad idea. I think if you're going to like
Speaker 1: just keep that bottled up and somehow like try to
Speaker 1: not have your partner be a part of that, and
Speaker 1: and like like to your to your point, it was
Speaker 1: kind of almost not fun, but like it was different
Speaker 1: to be able to discuss that with you and open
Speaker 1: up about it, you know, because not only did you
Speaker 1: have like a firm understanding of like you know, the
Speaker 1: forensic aspect of it or whatever was happening, you know,
Speaker 1: to the body or whatever else, but like you were
Speaker 1: just a good listener, and I feel like to talking
Speaker 1: about that or getting it out or getting it off of,
Speaker 1: you know, my shoulder, so to speak, it was just
Speaker 1: super helpful to help me, not like you know, crawl
Speaker 1: into a bottle over it or like dwell on it
Speaker 1: to the point where it was like debilitating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you've had a couple instances of like really
Speaker 2: terrible things happening at work or even with people you know,
Speaker 2: maybe at other jobs. Yeah, just because even though you
Speaker 2: don't necessarily work in the same city as some of
Speaker 2: these firemen, it's you're you're all kind of a big
Speaker 2: family and you all know each other, and it's a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, like like I've learned that a network is
Speaker 1: like really important, and I don't mean that in like
Speaker 1: like like a very sterile Like I've got a lot
Speaker 1: of good friends and other jobs, right, And then like
Speaker 1: if you're close with other people and they're experiencing things
Speaker 1: at their job that aren't you know, always going to
Speaker 1: be good, you can also have those conversations with them
Speaker 1: and sort of like help each other work their way
Speaker 1: through that. So obviously, like the bigger your network kind
Speaker 1: of gets, the more susceptible to those kinds of things
Speaker 1: you sort of become, especially when they're professionals and other
Speaker 1: fire departments that are busy going to fires or whatever.
Speaker 1: That might be New York City, it might be Baltimore
Speaker 1: or something like that, Philadelphia right over the bridge here.
Speaker 1: You have friends in these places and then like you
Speaker 1: see something terrible happening on the news, or like we're
Speaker 1: pretty quick with the phone and everything is so immediate,
Speaker 1: like you'll get a text, or like you might even
Speaker 1: be in an area where like even last fall, I
Speaker 1: was at an event and guy was there one minute
Speaker 1: and then a few hours later he's running a job
Speaker 1: or fireman or are losing their lives. So the more
Speaker 1: people you meet and the bigger you grow a network
Speaker 1: or like have friends in these places, like the more
Speaker 1: susceptible you are to that, which is you know, a
Speaker 1: good and a bad thing. You know, But at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, all you can do is kind
Speaker 1: of like be there for your friends and help try
Speaker 1: to get them through it.
Speaker 2: I know you've had a couple of situations with kids
Speaker 2: involved in these fires that you go to and stuff for.
Speaker 2: Do you think that they're like the hardest ones especially
Speaker 2: with with having little kids. I specifically remember one probably
Speaker 2: the one that I would think you would have you
Speaker 2: had the hardest time with when when our kids were
Speaker 2: around the same.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you never, kids are always the worst. And I
Speaker 1: can't imagine or be a firefighter anywhere who wouldn't tell
Speaker 1: you that, especially once you had their own children. But
Speaker 1: I think when they're there same age as your kids,
Speaker 1: it certainly hits home a little differently. And then when
Speaker 1: when it was your job to prevent that from happening,
Speaker 1: you know, that gets a little harder, like a harder
Speaker 1: pill to swallow, because you know, you're you're the you're
Speaker 1: the guy, right like you're the person in those places
Speaker 1: who are supposed to prevent that or stop that or
Speaker 1: you know, alter that course. And when you can't, it's
Speaker 1: just like it can be devastating on multiple fronts, you know.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean it's never good to crawl into it,
Speaker 1: like a really high heat love his situation, or a
Speaker 1: high heat like fire condition and like see it, you know,
Speaker 1: a kid the same age as your kids, like like expired.
Speaker 1: You know, so that that's never easy to deal with,
Speaker 1: and and you know it's it's adults aren't easier per se.
Speaker 1: It's it's maybe just like one less aspect that you
Speaker 1: that you would be able to kind of you know,
Speaker 1: like at least they were, you know, a little older,
Speaker 1: they had lived their lives. They were able to grow
Speaker 1: up and like enjoy lives or have their own children.
Speaker 1: Right like when you're a kid, you just you didn't
Speaker 1: get you didn't get a chance to like to live
Speaker 1: or experience life. Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 2: I think that's why it's important that you can talk
Speaker 2: to your family about that, because I know that some
Speaker 2: fire departments like offer help for things like that, but
Speaker 2: especially when you were going through that, Like I remember,
Speaker 2: we had to talk about it a lot, because it's
Speaker 2: just it's not something like you come home from work
Speaker 2: and talk about over coffee and it's done with. It's
Speaker 2: like nah, it takes months and years even to just
Speaker 2: really be able to move on from something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like I mean, collectively, the fire service I
Speaker 1: think has gotten quite a bit better at this, the
Speaker 1: amount of resources and the idea that that like that
Speaker 1: they need help because it's just like a relatively new thing.
Speaker 1: It sounds kind of crazy, but it's like a new thing.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, like we need help, right, like and
Speaker 1: and again going back to like you're the people who
Speaker 1: deliver the help, Like they call you when they're having
Speaker 1: their worst day, and then you go and solve that problem.
Speaker 1: So so that's one of the reasons why I think
Speaker 1: firefighters struggle with it so much. And it might just
Speaker 1: be one thing, like like maybe not everybody's working in
Speaker 1: like a really busy shop, but like in the course
Speaker 1: of a career, the one thing might be what undoes
Speaker 1: your entire career. Like, so so collectively, like I said,
Speaker 1: there's there's much better resources and much better awareness around it.
Speaker 1: I don't know that I would one hundred percent agree
Speaker 1: with all of it. Also, like I feel like there's
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of like an enabling aspect that
Speaker 1: like isn't probably something we would get into in this realm,
Speaker 1: but like I feel we're getting better at recognizing it
Speaker 1: and sort of supporting one another and kind of getting
Speaker 1: past this like machismo bullshit. Yeah, that sort of perpetuates
Speaker 1: this idea that like you can't talk about it or
Speaker 1: you you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like as with anything, there's going to be
Speaker 2: people that legitimately need it, and then people that abuse
Speaker 2: the system. So like that's just inevitably going to happen,
Speaker 2: because it happens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the fire service is certainly no different than than
Speaker 1: I mean, we're all human beings, right, So like that's
Speaker 1: not it. That's not like a firefighter thing, that's just
Speaker 1: human nature.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there just has to be like a certain
Speaker 2: level of like resilience you build up towards certain things.
Speaker 2: You can't just be coddled over every single right thing
Speaker 2: that happens.
Speaker 1: I mean personally, I'm personally, I'm way more interested in
Speaker 1: post traumatic growth and you know, yeah PTSD per se,
Speaker 1: and that's like maybe a new concept for some people,
Speaker 1: but that's, in my opinion, the direction we should maybe
Speaker 1: be moving in more so than helping everybody think that
Speaker 1: they're messed up and they have every right to be
Speaker 1: messed up. And like you know, when you lead people
Speaker 1: to that, you're certainly not leading them to answers right
Speaker 1: or to getting better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like well, okay, yes we can recognize
Speaker 2: this happened to you, but like now, what what are
Speaker 2: you going to do with that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Or more importantly, like put the front end in,
Speaker 1: put the front end work in, right, so that like
Speaker 1: this is like the left of bang thing for us,
Speaker 1: like get ahead of it before it happens, because like
Speaker 1: this is what happens at my job, right, Like it's
Speaker 1: not an unknown. So I think we need to get
Speaker 1: better at sort of being ahead of it.
Speaker 2: One thing that is really weird about being married and
Speaker 2: being with you for sixteen years is that I see
Speaker 2: you every single day and like I can't I don't
Speaker 2: like ever look at you and say, oh, you look old.
Speaker 2: You look like you're getting old, right, I mean I don't,
Speaker 2: I don't eat at all, but I'm just talking about
Speaker 2: you here, baby. But I feel but then like I'll
Speaker 2: look at pictures of the girls, even from when they
Speaker 2: were babies, and then I say, like, okay, Gabe looks
Speaker 2: like he's getting older just by looking at pictures you.
Speaker 2: Your hair was darker and you just like look different. Right.
Speaker 2: But one thing I definitely have noticed is you have
Speaker 2: changed so much since I met you. Just even talking
Speaker 2: about when I met you, it's just like I'm like,
Speaker 2: I like you so much more now than I did then.
Speaker 2: Like I was more like when I met you, I
Speaker 2: was just more like like that lust thing, you know,
Speaker 2: just like very like attracted to you and stuff but
Speaker 2: now it's just like you're just I just love you
Speaker 2: so much, like as a friend and as a person
Speaker 2: more because you're just like so much more of a
Speaker 2: decent human being than you were when I met you.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I just so. One of my questions is
Speaker 2: from you know, twenty four year old Gabe that started
Speaker 2: the fire department in nineteen ninety nine to almost forty nine,
Speaker 2: I say, almost fifty year old Gabe, is you know
Speaker 2: you're you've been you're almost ready. I mean technically you're
Speaker 2: eligible to retire really Soonmber, So what how what have
Speaker 2: how have you changed in the fire department, Because I
Speaker 2: don't know how much you really want to speak about that,
Speaker 2: like what you used to do and what you people
Speaker 2: thought of you, and how much you've progressed over the
Speaker 2: past twenty five years. You know.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's funny because every so often, like somebody
Speaker 1: who who I work with daily will hear a story
Speaker 1: about me or something from somebody from like twenty years ago, right,
Speaker 1: But like the thing I take from that is that
Speaker 1: that person doesn't know who I am to this day, right,
Speaker 1: Like they don't they don't we don't talk often. They
Speaker 1: don't know what work I've put in or how much
Speaker 1: I've changed or grown so so like to them, I'm
Speaker 1: very much still you know, the guy from two thousand
Speaker 1: and two, right, and.
Speaker 2: You're you're there's no trace of that in you anymore.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't, I wouldn't go quite that far. Every so
Speaker 1: often that will that.
Speaker 2: Will well yeah, yeah, when you like, I.
Speaker 1: Don't do that much around here, but at work, maybe
Speaker 1: that comes out a little bit more than it does
Speaker 1: on the home front. But largely you're accurate, like it's
Speaker 1: not that's like not a thing anymore because it's like
Speaker 1: and ever so often I'm like wait, like like bro stop,
Speaker 1: like that's not you anymore. You don't need to like
Speaker 1: do that. So even if it's like highly effective in
Speaker 1: some certain you know, kind of circumstances.
Speaker 2: Well, it shines through with how you raise your children
Speaker 2: sometimes well, the immaturity and the teaching them the burp
Speaker 2: and like spitballs in the restaurant.
Speaker 1: Fun, right, that's fun. Yeah, And at some point hopefully
Speaker 1: they'll realize that, like they you know, that he's kind
Speaker 1: of a clown for like letting me carry on like this.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I feel like I've certainly put the work
Speaker 1: in and and the biggest I guess the biggest aspect
Speaker 1: of that holds it like you have to recognize it.
Speaker 1: And I'd say, like that's where you obviously would come in,
Speaker 1: because like if you if you're not being held accountable
Speaker 1: or like nobody's like having like an honest conversation with you,
Speaker 1: then you're never even going to realize that like your
Speaker 1: behavior is not right, like right, like if that's using
Speaker 1: people or like just like being nonchalant about like relationships,
Speaker 1: you know, or whatever it might be. And that's where
Speaker 1: mentorship comes in, and like kind of kind of like
Speaker 1: getting what you need from people, and you have to
Speaker 1: you have to realize that this is a problem or
Speaker 1: have identified it before you can sort of like seek
Speaker 1: out like the appropriate help. Right if you're if you're
Speaker 1: gonna if you're going to be a better person or
Speaker 1: the best version of yourself, you know you need examples, right,
Speaker 1: Like you need people to aspire to be or like
Speaker 1: people that you can kind of look up to and emulate,
Speaker 1: and and like that might that might mean like not
Speaker 1: not having relationships with people that you know are no
Speaker 1: good for you, or or like not cutting people out
Speaker 1: of your life, but just kind of like not putting
Speaker 1: as much stock or time and energy into right like
Speaker 1: I can't support people who aren't going to support me,
Speaker 1: or I can't I can't go and do this anymore
Speaker 1: because this person is clearly on like you know, a
Speaker 1: whole other thing of like self destruction, Like this is
Speaker 1: not good for me. So you have to recognize when
Speaker 1: and where, Like I say this at work a lot,
Speaker 1: Like I go by two things like if you're the
Speaker 1: smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room,
Speaker 1: and it's like not an insult, but it's just like
Speaker 1: it's like an intrinsic Like I have to recognize that.
Speaker 1: And then if everyone in the in the room is
Speaker 1: an asshole, then then you're the asshole. Like those are
Speaker 1: two things that I sort of so I look to
Speaker 1: like think that way all the time, like what is
Speaker 1: this relationship going to do for me? Like who am
Speaker 1: I surrounding myself with? Like where do I want to go?
Speaker 1: Like like with very deliberate intent, you know, and like
Speaker 1: as far as growth is concerned, if you're surrounded by
Speaker 1: people who are only looking to hold you back or
Speaker 1: like do you know dumb shit for like lack of
Speaker 1: a better term, then then that's where you're going to
Speaker 1: be and like that's what you're going to do. And
Speaker 1: it's just the you got to make a conscious decision,
Speaker 1: like you're on a different path and like find who's
Speaker 1: going to help support that path.
Speaker 2: And we talk about all that that all the time too,
Speaker 2: about how people will say like, well you've changed and
Speaker 2: and and it's like and we we think that's a compliment,
Speaker 2: like you should change as you get older.
Speaker 1: Isn't that the point like to grow?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Like so so yeah, like I hear that a ton
Speaker 1: at my job, and I just you know, well this
Speaker 1: guy changed that, you know, they're different, they changed, And
Speaker 1: was like, well it's not bad. Like honestly, you should
Speaker 1: be willing and able to change your mind or orre
Speaker 1: to like pivot, you know what I'm saying. Like if
Speaker 1: you're not, then you're kind of doing it wrong.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're just like you're like al Bundy. We always
Speaker 2: talk about that, talking about talking about Polkai football, right,
Speaker 2: just like you just never you just never grow. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and when you grow, you change, and hopefully the person
Speaker 2: you're with is also growing and changing and you guys
Speaker 2: can kind of do it together.
Speaker 1: Instead of yeah, yeah, I mean like you feed off
Speaker 1: of that. You know, I don't want to be talking
Speaker 1: to you about what I was doing on a skateboard
Speaker 1: twenty five or thirty years ago, Like like that's cool
Speaker 1: in all, but like that's not If I'm kind of
Speaker 1: relying on that conversation, then like that's going to get
Speaker 1: old real quick. Like it's sort of like grow and
Speaker 1: progress and like talk about new things and like see
Speaker 1: what else is going on out there, and like in
Speaker 1: the relationship, if you're kind of fostering that and one another,
Speaker 1: then like the team goes that way, right, and and
Speaker 1: then your kids sort of emmul like that. Right. So
Speaker 1: let's talk.
Speaker 2: About your dissertation, because it was really awesome. I had
Speaker 2: to read it like five.
Speaker 1: Hundreds I still have to read it at least one
Speaker 1: more time before I can. Yeah, we have to.
Speaker 2: Just just briefly just tell us because I think a
Speaker 2: lot of people that might want to go to grad
Speaker 2: school they might not understand. Like like when you when
Speaker 2: you decided you were doing this doctorate program and you
Speaker 2: knew what the title of this major was, did you
Speaker 2: know right away, like, Okay, this is what I'm going
Speaker 2: to write my dissertation on. Because this is what I
Speaker 2: want to do.
Speaker 1: No, not not at all. And the cool thing about
Speaker 1: like research or even academics in general is that like
Speaker 1: there's like this nonlinear or you know, yeah, I go
Speaker 1: here and then like I meet the wall, and then
Speaker 1: like I or I learned something that disproves what I
Speaker 1: was thinking, and then like I have to kind of
Speaker 1: right and so and I like that, you know, it's
Speaker 1: one of the things I'd like about doing that kind
Speaker 1: of work. So I only recently named it, and loosely
Speaker 1: it's it's socio cultural human performance, and it's based upon
Speaker 1: like leadership and professional development for fire officers, fire company officers,
Speaker 1: and of course it's frame like so I'd be remiss
Speaker 1: if I didn't say that. Basically, my place that I
Speaker 1: work has sort of been been the reason for me
Speaker 1: to do any of this stuff. Right, I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't work in Baltimore, I don't work in New York City,
Speaker 1: I don't work in in Cherry Hill, like I don't,
Speaker 1: So I can only kind of navigate my academics with
Speaker 1: the organizational experiences that I have. Right, So, like all
Speaker 1: my work is about the place I'm in and and
Speaker 1: trying to seek understanding about about how to help make
Speaker 1: that better, and in this place, it's just extremely complex.
Speaker 1: So I think I had to sit with like a
Speaker 1: thirty year problem right to try to figure this out.
Speaker 1: And like along the way, all the stuff you figure out,
Speaker 1: just like we talk about growth, Like the stuff you
Speaker 1: figure out or the stuff you read about like just
Speaker 1: makes you a better person and a more understanding person.
Speaker 1: And like all these things that I'm working on that
Speaker 1: have nothing to do with the fire Service make me
Speaker 1: extremely better at the fire service, if that makes sense. So,
Speaker 1: like I was saying this earlier, like the fire science
Speaker 1: thing I started off with, I just think that's extremely
Speaker 1: narrow and like, if I want people to be better firefighters,
Speaker 1: it's like they're not going to stop in the middle
Speaker 1: of the fire floor and be like, oh, well, this
Speaker 1: is the part where the fire tetrahedron comes together. Like
Speaker 1: it just doesn't work like that, And god forbid they
Speaker 1: wanted to go on to another career or do something
Speaker 1: in retirement, Like the fire Service doesn't really assist you
Speaker 1: in doing that, Like they're very like, no, just stay
Speaker 1: in these like four walls right here, and you're going
Speaker 1: to be a better firefighter. And I just don't think
Speaker 1: that it works like that. I think that the work
Speaker 1: I did in my dissertation or my or my master's
Speaker 1: capstone or whatever just kind of broaden your horizons. And
Speaker 1: like when you broad in like that, you kind of
Speaker 1: you'll circle back to the place you're at and sort
Speaker 1: of identify issues and problems or you know, circumstances or
Speaker 1: frameworks or whatever it might be that are just you know,
Speaker 1: broken and or like not effective. And while that will
Speaker 1: maybe ruin your life, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: you can sit with it circumstances or problems and try
Speaker 1: to really identify how to fix them right. And like,
Speaker 1: I don't know that I answered your question because I
Speaker 1: didn't really speak.
Speaker 2: No, you do. And this is something that we talk
Speaker 2: about all time again a similar thing, because one thing
Speaker 2: that I remember, especially when I was working in the
Speaker 2: gross room a lot and stuff, was that just you know,
Speaker 2: working with a bunch of doctors and they just think,
Speaker 2: you know, oh, you've seen one thing, you see it all,
Speaker 2: and you you knew every You have some degree, and
Speaker 2: you and you read some books, and now all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, like that's all you have to do in life,
Speaker 2: and and and the Fire Service is kind of opposite
Speaker 2: that it's like not as strong academic. Oh, I've been
Speaker 2: to this many fires and I know everything. And like
Speaker 2: the perfect job ever, whether it's being a firefighter, whether
Speaker 2: it's being a PA or nurse anything in the world,
Speaker 2: is that you have book smarts and then you have
Speaker 2: job smarts, and it's this it's this beautiful marriage of
Speaker 2: of like how everything should be in the world would
Speaker 2: be a better place. We always say that, right, So
Speaker 2: I think you did, you answered it.
Speaker 1: That's I think. I mean, my my whole goal at
Speaker 1: my job is to sort of like be filthy and
Speaker 1: and like that's a term from baseball I've learned from
Speaker 1: like pictures got filthy stuff today, Like I think I
Speaker 1: have a lot of tactical street experience, right, but like
Speaker 1: I also want to marry that with academics and like
Speaker 1: like time spent in the box trying to solve a problem.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's what's been highly effective for me personally,
Speaker 1: at least I feel like it's been effective, and I
Speaker 1: hope other people would too. But yeah, I want to
Speaker 1: be filthy, Like I want to be the equal parts
Speaker 1: of like street smart and tactical skill sets and like
Speaker 1: deep thought and you know, the marrying of blue collar
Speaker 1: and white collar.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's it's just the only way to
Speaker 2: be because you can't, you know. And that is something
Speaker 2: that because we we grew up super super blue collar,
Speaker 2: like we barely know anybody that went to school.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean in our neighborhoods, I don't want
Speaker 1: to act like I'm not right, like I think we're
Speaker 1: still very hard working blue collar folks.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I would never want to like act like that's
Speaker 1: improper or not good.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and we I mean I think that I
Speaker 2: learned so many skills from my dad just being and
Speaker 2: that makes me a good PA on the job, right,
Speaker 2: even though I already had the academics to back it up.
Speaker 2: You know. It's like because trust me, I worked with
Speaker 2: plenty of doctors who did not know how to use
Speaker 2: any kind of street smarts to figure anything out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's not it's not like I'm sure
Speaker 1: we both know plenty of people with advanced degrees who
Speaker 1: are just you know, yeah we do, you know, so
Speaker 1: so like I would never even think, and you know,
Speaker 1: in the fire service, unfortunately, there's like that whole negative
Speaker 1: connotation to like you know, college boy or whatever, like
Speaker 1: like like Jaws, like Hooper, right, like Quin and Hooper.
Speaker 1: But but it doesn't have to be that way. Like
Speaker 1: learning is cool. Getting smarter can help you be more
Speaker 1: effective on the street, and like if you're like mission oriented,
Speaker 1: then that's what matters to at least when we're talking
Speaker 1: about like the fire service. That's that's all I really
Speaker 1: can relate to. Your thing is probably not much different
Speaker 1: in that you see people with advanced degrees and like
Speaker 1: they're just like very kind of like shut off to
Speaker 1: to like what you look like or your approach to
Speaker 1: things or.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they just think they don't have to work a.
Speaker 1: Degree higher than you or whatever it might be. It's
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of unfortunate, but like it when
Speaker 1: you do find the people that are rare and they're
Speaker 1: a little bit of each I think that they're the
Speaker 1: ones who are filthy at their chosen profession.
Speaker 2: I agree. Well, I think that we've let the people
Speaker 2: listening hear a lot about the inside of what we
Speaker 2: this is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I was a little surprised that I
Speaker 1: was requested, to be quite honest, you told me that
Speaker 1: I was like really like people on her thing give
Speaker 1: any shit about what I'm doing or what I'm talking about, Like,
Speaker 1: that's kind of news to me.
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think you're I think a
Speaker 2: lot of you know, you did podcast with Jason on
Speaker 2: Leadership under Fire. You've been on a couple of different.
Speaker 1: Podcasts, and we'll hopefully have another one of those coming
Speaker 1: up by the end of the summer. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people have listened to
Speaker 2: it and they just want to hear what you're doing.
Speaker 2: And I'm always saying, how awesome what you're doing is.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm like prob mama over here. But this
Speaker 2: is like a typical date night conversation Gabe and I
Speaker 2: would have.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the only thing missing is the Ethiopian.
Speaker 2: Shoes, the Ethiopian food and others. We're done, all right,
Speaker 2: We're done, all right. Well, thanks so much for being here, Vavi,
Speaker 2: you're the best.
Speaker 1: Appreciate all of you too.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Thank you for listening to Mother
Speaker 2: and Death. As a reminder, my training is as a
Speaker 2: pathologist's assistant. I have a master's level education and specialize
Speaker 2: in anatomy and pathology education. I am not a doctor
Speaker 2: and I have not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or
Speaker 2: alive without the assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show,
Speaker 2: my website, and social media accounts are designed to educate
Speaker 2: and inform people based on my experience working in pathology,
Speaker 2: so they can make healthier decisions regarding their life and
Speaker 2: well being. Always remember that science is changing every day,
Speaker 2: and the opinions expressed in this episode are based on
Speaker 2: my knowledge of those subjects at the time of publication.
Speaker 2: If you are having a medical problem, have a medical question,
Speaker 2: or having a medical emergency, please contact your physician or
Speaker 2: visit an urgent care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review,
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