WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 29 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.079 there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:27.800 can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:32.640 here a podcast where we talk about things falling apart, 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:38.080 and this week we're talking about our ability to have 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:44.880 things that that don't get co opted by fascists falling apart. Garrison, Hello, 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:49.040 take us, take us away. Yes, So today we're going 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.040 to talk about kind of why maybe it's great not 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:56.240 to see any aesthetic ground to fascists anytime it's uncomfortable 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:01.520 to do. So we've brought on someone who I found 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:04.640 on Twitter who wrote a very very great article about 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:08.000 some kind of ongoing debate and drama around like anarchists 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:13.840 symbols um and fascists trying to use symbols um. But 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:18.119 I'm we are talking to a black ram. Hello, Hey, 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.399 I was I was things I'm I'm I'm actually I'm 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.360 actually doing okay, I've been I've been looking forward to 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:27.160 this chat for a while. So yes, if, um, if 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:29.440 people are unfamiliar, it looks like the past few weeks 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.760 people have really freaked out about an eight pointed star. 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:37.840 People really really seem concerned about it. Um. Yeah, this 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:39.880 has a lot tied in with what's been happening in 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:43.640 Ukraine because, as always happens when there's a new story 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:46.880 that has anything to do with the far right, um, 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.720 people got acquainted with some symbols that they had not 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.800 been aware of before, particularly the san and rad, which 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.320 is a common symbol that you'll see on members of 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:58.640 the as Off Battalion kind of some other far right 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.280 organization in Ukraine as well as elsewhere. You know, the 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.760 christ Church shooter wore a son and rad, and then 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:09.000 they started identifying all sorts of things that they felt 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:12.040 looked like son and rad's everywhere on the internet, and 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:14.400 things kind of spiraled from there. Well, and I think 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:16.639 there's actually a little bit more to it than that. Well, 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:18.960 we're gonna get into we're gonna get into black Ram's 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.040 article here shortly. But yeah, I kind of first one 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.120 just briefly go through. I think why it's this kind 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:26.520 of why this debate happened now, because the debate has 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.840 happened before, but it's never gotten this like intense. A 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.160 big part of this his tied to Russia's invasion of 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.960 Ukraine and everyone wanting to play like where's Waldo with 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:39.600 symbols being like can you spot the son and red 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:41.920 on the on the pictures of the as Off Battalion 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.640 UM and I think the other so like so everyone's 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.240 already kind of looking for symbols as like a fun game. 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.160 But the other thing that's kind of happening is because 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:54.280 of the Russia Dugan connection. Of Dugan's like a political 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.040 fascist writer who's a very influential inside Russia. UM. But 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.359 because of the Russia Dugan connection, some people are now 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:06.440 seeing Dugan's symbol, the Uration Square for the first time, right, 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:11.639 And now that they've seen the square, they're seeing anarchists 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:14.639 using the Chaos Star, which looks a little similar. They're 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.800 they're not the same, but they're because they just because 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.400 they just learned about the Uration Square, now they're seeing 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:24.079 the Chaos Star and they've never really noticed the castAR before. 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:26.760 Maybe they're they just don't really care about what symbols 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:30.600 random people use. But now that they see the uration 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.280 symbol and they see the chaostar, they're making this connection 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:35.280 here and they think this is a new development, right. 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.160 They think this is like like they're they're asking themselves like, 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.840 why are anarchists suddenly using this fascist symbol um, which 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.000 they either think to themselves or they think out loud 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.240 on Twitter dot com. Uh, which is really rich because 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.640 I mean, anarchists have been using the chaost are longer 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.920 than Dugan has been using his Uration square. And if 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.440 you have been watching anarchists for any amount of time 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:58.240 on the internet, I know you you would have seen 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.920 them using the chaos star. Uh. It's not it's not 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.680 a new development by any means. But because everyone's trying 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.360 to like wear's Waldo and oh sent their way through 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:10.400 the war, they're they're kind of drawing these false connections, 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.160 which is kind of unfortunate because because there is actually 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:16.000 some interesting things to talk about in terms of how 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:20.839 Doogan did kind of base his design off of Michael 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.719 Moorecox Chaos Star and a whole bunch of stuff around, 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.359 like why anarchists use the chaos star and you know, 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:28.800 there's a whole there's there's a nice debate to be 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:32.680 had there around fascists always in asserting themselves in these 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.080 subcultures and trying to gain ground, whether it be like 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:38.159 the punk scene, the industrial music scene, uh, you know 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.440 online gaming, right, fascists always trying to do this. Just 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:43.960 often we want to we try to push back on that, right, 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.800 like Nazia punks fuck off. But it seems specifically with 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.080 the Chaos Star, a whole bunch of people just want 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.000 to cave and let them kind of take this symbol, 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:55.880 which is I know, I think not not a not 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.520 a great instinct um, but to to kind of kind 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.280 of talk about this and other kind of background stuff, 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:05.479 like I said, we brought on a black ram Hello 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.320 to help to help talk about this. So yeah, what 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:10.800 kind of prompted you to write your article? I guess, uh, 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.839 you know, watching this debate kind of go down, what 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.400 what kind of actually just like what was what was 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:18.560 the straw that broke the camel's back? And being like, Okay, 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.200 now I need to write like a decently long article 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:24.880 on this topic. I think I've said this on like 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.359 on the on Twitter a little while before writing the 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:34.880 actual article, But I think the the spark was a 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.359 friend from a guy you may or may not have 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.360 seen him around. He's like somebody who's like, well demn 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.520 Stock but but but he has like anarchists leading on 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.320 his bio, which I guess sort of which I guess 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.680 sort of communicates the idea that he would probably like 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:54.200 anarchism if he did not consider it to be impractical. Sure. Yeah, 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:58.000 but anyways, I actually I kind of wavered on the 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.039 idea of covering it at all. I thought it would 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.719 I thought it would only go for like a few days, 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.960 and it was sort of a Johnny come Lately by 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.719 maybe a day or so, admittedly, but the figured it 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.880 would be sort of ephemeral. But there's things I sort 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.320 of kept seeing. But in the midst of writing it, 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.279 there was like some tanking who went even fervor and 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:23.240 made the link to the Chaos Star and I think 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:26.080 it was the logo of the Sith Empire from certain 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:31.839 Star Wars media. We'll talk about that like it's it's like, well, 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:34.520 it's like, well, one has six lines and they're not 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.960 even arrows. They're just like blocks in like a sort 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:42.279 of hexagonal shape. But it's like the same guys really 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.200 like the idea that the logo of the Ukrainian Armed 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:49.640 Forces is actually the iron cross. Yeah. A big chunk 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.479 of this, I think kind of the prehistory of why 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:56.240 this became such a specific problem started with kind of 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.599 Unite the Right in the period after that, where you 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:00.760 had all these new fascist groups on the ground of 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.480 the United States and they all had their symbols, and 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:05.280 you know, I was a part of this to to 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:09.200 to the degree that there's some culpability here. Um, a 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.280 number of researchers, including myself, we're warning people like, hey, 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.240 there's some like symbols that people are are taking to 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:20.040 right wing gatherings and they're claiming to be normal conservatives, 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.200 and these are these are symbols of groups like the 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.920 Phineest Priesthood or groups like different kind of fascist organizations, 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.680 and you might not be aware of them, and so 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:30.360 you should know what kind of these, you know, the 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.200 Khakistan flag or whatever means, because people are trying to 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:37.480 kind of signpost their sympathy to these extreme groups. And 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:41.400 that I think that was important because those people were 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:45.520 legitimate problems, and um, they were trying to kind of 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:50.840 stealthily hide they're very radical right wing sympathies behind some 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:54.720 like obscure images. But the problem is that it got 0:07:54.720 --> 0:08:00.000 a lot of people looking not just looking for fascist 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.320 symbols and everything, but also looking for the clout that 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.040 comes from like pointing something like that out. And I 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.400 think that's that's kind of the root of a lot 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.800 of these these problems. And it's not surprising that it 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:15.080 happened with Dugan's symbol that there's no absolutely not um 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:17.560 because it does, like, again, if you're just like kind 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.040 of a casual observer, it does look a lot like 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.360 the chaos star and it makes its point and star 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.680 with arrows, yeah, and it makes If you know anything 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:29.640 about Dugan's philosophy, Alexander Dugan is a essentially a Russian 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:33.959 political theorist and author. Um. There's a lot that's kind 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:36.360 of said about how close he is to Putin. He 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.480 certainly was at one point closer to Putin. There's a 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:41.520 lot of debate as to whether or not Putin kind 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:45.120 of saw him as more of like a useful uh 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.920 person to kind of a useful propaganda Oregan, or whether 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:50.800 or not he really bought into what Dugan was saying. 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:55.000 But Dugan is and was a really big advocate of 0:08:55.040 --> 0:09:00.760 like what he called like multipolar um international politics, multipolarity, 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:03.680 which is this idea that like the United States should 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:07.200 not be a the hegemonic power in the world right, 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:09.080 which it kind of was after the fall of the 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:11.319 Soviet units. This idea that there should be a bunch 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:15.360 of equivalent powers um, which is number one. You can 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.120 see how a lot of folks on the left would 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:20.240 be drawn in by that, even if they weren't particularly 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:22.920 fans of putin just the idea that like, oh well, yeah, 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:25.560 it's it's been a problem that the United States, it's 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.559 this massive hegemonic power. Perhaps it would be better if 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.840 there were a bunch of equivalent powers um. And and 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:33.880 it's one of those things where there's a logic to that, 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.800 but it does kind of require ignoring all of the 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.520 times in the past when we had a multipolar world 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:44.040 and there was tremendous violence. There's a root error in 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.680 this sort of pathway which sort of like refuses to 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.839 deal with imperialism as a global system. Yeah. The reason 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.000 that's a hang up is because once you once you 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:57.520 think of imperialism as a global system, you you then 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.080 have to move on to the idea that it a 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:04.320 global system that then has to be dismantled globally. Yeah, 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.840 you can't quite do that with capita because it implicates 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.160 nations that are supposed to serve as like moments of 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:15.560 world historic progress against like hegemonic capitalism, and it is 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.120 one of those spooks of the mind that people kind 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.679 of have to do away with well, which the Adicist 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:24.920 movement sort of does pretty successfully, because that mostly comes 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:27.600 from the fact that it starts off from the position 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:31.280 of like the state as an actual sort of structural presence. 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:35.320 It's sort of funny that, like the Marxist argument is 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.240 usually down to like hyper focus on the state and 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.680 hierarchy is idealist, which is odd when you consider that 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.600 hierarchy and the state are very much material in the 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:50.080 same way that capitalism itself is. So it's like it's 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:55.040 it feels more like a sort of argument that's like, well, 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:59.880 my materialism is the materialism, Your materialism is in fact 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:04.880 a form of idealism. I think with with that, we're 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.160 gonna go on a quick a quick quick head break, 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:10.440 and then we're gonna come back. And I think we 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.199 should probably now talk about like the origins of the 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:17.880 Chaos Star and and Michael Moorecock and discordionism um, and 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:19.560 then we'll kind of get into the kind of current 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.520 current debate on it. Uh some more so anyway, here's 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:26.959 here's here's some here's some ads for your ears coming 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:32.199 in through the ear waves. Oh yeah, yeah, it's time. 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:40.040 It's time to talk about more time for more so. Um, 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.160 I guess, uh black Crab you you actually did a 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:45.920 pretty good insistinct kind of things on how the Chaos 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.439 Star came into being, initially via Michael Moorecock. Do you 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:51.920 want it to just like as brief briefly talk about 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.680 kind of how he came up with the symbol for 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:59.320 his books and stuff. Okay, so full disclosure, I haven't 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:04.560 really read books themselves. I've read some Michael Moorecock. A 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.040 lot of what a lot of my familiarity from him 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.040 is pretty secondhand. One of the main things of that 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:14.439 is Serifungal being like this, this sort of eighties band 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:18.200 that I sort of think back to. Their whole vibe 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:22.440 is more Cox works. But but but anyways, the reason 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.959 why the Chaos Star is the shape that it is 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.760 is because what it's supposed to represent is meant to 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:33.560 extend outward endlessly. Yeah, the counter symbol for order is 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:38.640 a single a single upward pointing arrow voted with Funny enough. 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.480 When I thought about that, I thought about the twas 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.880 room or like tear. It doesn't really have to say meaning, 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.760 but it's like upward pointing arrow in a symbolic context. 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.680 That's the other example I have. But but that upward 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:56.800 pointing arrow significies a straight and narrow expression of where 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:01.680 possibility goes, where potential sort of goes, which create structure. 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.960 The other the chaos Star, by contrast, has like the 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.120 eight directions are meant to represent all directions in a 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:13.319 circular sort of space, like a compass of sorts, and 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.760 the energy and the potential and possibility goes out and 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:20.880 all of them. We have no set path, no definite limit, 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.280 no boundaries. It just goes. It just sort of goes 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.960 out there. It's little wonder why the chaos magic movement 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.240 embraced it for a very similar set of reasons. Yes, 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:34.640 it's even because even though it is kind of a 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.320 myth that there's absolutely no rules in chaos magic, what 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:43.199 is true is that you can explore very a very 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:47.160 very broad and like almost limitless range of like practical 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:51.480 possibilities within that movement and that sort of within that 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.679 sort of frame. It's a it's a very like post structuralist, 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.760 post modern view of it. But this modern is how 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.319 I've heard it described. And kind of getting back to 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:03.400 the like what Morecock was in brief, because I do 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:05.000 you think we need to kind of give an overview 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:08.840 of who he is. Um, he's still alive. Um, last 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.319 I checked. At least he's alive. I I heard him 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.640 talking at an anarchist sci fi conference a few weeks ago. 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.800 If you didn't immediately know who he was, he is 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.840 the most influential fantasy author you have not heard of? 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.480 He he he is like a George RR. Martin level 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.480 of influence, if not significantly more so. Like he's he 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:30.640 some people will say he's the most influential fantasy author 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:35.280 since Tolkien. UM. And among his you've you've noted the 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:37.200 band Sirith Ungle if you've, if you've been a fan 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:41.200 of of any of the Warhammer games. Um, he's a 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.920 huge influence on that because the thing that he created 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:47.520 was kind of the the concept of chaos as a 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.880 sort of religious entity. And I'm not going to get 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:51.840 into like the depths of the lore in his books, 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:53.120 but a lot of it is about kind of the 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:57.760 struggle between order and chaos um and so the Chaos 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:03.400 Star he he created that specifically like for this kind 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:08.240 of theological like conflict that occurs throughout his books, and 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.320 it became the symbol of like one of the sides 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.560 in Warhammer, and this very like there's tens of thousands 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.120 of people who have the Chaos star tattooed on them, 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:21.400 not because of Warhammer, but or not because of any 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:23.800 political reason or because of chast Mensic, because they were 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:28.120 fans of like Warhammer forty or whatever. And it's interesting 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:30.520 because in the same time, when I first got into 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:35.760 anarchist political theory before long before I considered calling myself one, 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:37.800 it was because I came across a book published by 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.680 A k press Um I think I bought it in 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:44.040 two thousands seven called No Gods, No Masters, and it 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.480 was it's a collection. A lot of people have a 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:48.800 copy of this book in in their house if they're 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.920 into anarchist theory. It's like a collection of early anarchists, 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.320 like people like Prudon essays on like the kind of 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.400 the first wave of anarchist political theory and it has 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.640 a chaos star on the cover. UM because number one 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.720 Michael Moorecock identify is an anarchist. Um is a is 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:09.080 a uh like as a like is both an author 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:13.040 and someone who identifies as an anarchistic and yeah politically, 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:18.360 and so his books had were particularly popular among anarchists, um, 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:20.520 who don't always get a lot of chunks of pop 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:25.840 culture to themselves. UM. And so he's he's. It was 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:30.040 kind of from the beginning, both this nerdy fantasy symbol 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:32.560 that you could see, you could you could put alongside 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.200 a bunch of different ships from the Lord of the Rings. 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:35.760 Not that I love the Lord of the Rings, but 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.600 like you could see it as like like like somebody 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.560 having a tattoo in Elvish. But it also took on 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.520 almost immediately this dual meaning where it was actually representing 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.440 aspects of anarchist political theory, and so it was put 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:52.320 in printed on like books that were about political theory 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:54.480 and had nothing to do with fantasy. So it's I 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.480 can't actually I cannot actually think of another symbol with 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.760 a similar pedigree. It's it's a really pretty unique case. 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.000 It is. It is because it's it's less of like 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.560 an anarchist symbol, but more a symbol created and used 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:09.639 by anarchists. Like it was like it was, it was, 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:11.760 it was, it was invented by an anarchist. It was. 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.440 It was a symbol invented by an anarchist to represent 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:18.160 something in fiction that had such resonance that people adopted 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.480 it as an actual political symbol. Yeah. It honestly, it 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:25.399 honestly doesn't require that much reach to see why people 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.200 who would why people who like the idea of there 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:32.280 being no hierarchy and no state, even if not total freedom, 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.240 there's still like the most range that you could get 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.640 that results in that negation. It doesn't take a lot 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:42.919 of elaboration to see why the symbol expressly meant for 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.600 the symbol of chaos would gain traction. Absolute. Absolutely, Yeah. 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.760 I was talking with Margaret Keilnjoy about this a while ago, 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.679 and she was like, yeah, like if you were in 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:53.359 the two thousands and then you were like a traveling 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:58.040 crust punk, at least like people would have chaostar tattoos, 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:01.080 because that's because that's like it's a yeah, expanding out 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:04.440 in all directions, you know, you're those the single arrow 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.200 is law and order. Instead, we're expanding out every in 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.040 every possible way. Yeah, I mean I have a cast 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:15.240 tattooed on me and I it's it's it's for primarily 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.240 ideological reasons, as opposed to the fact that I spent 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:23.840 my entire child with playing Warhammer of so, so yeah, 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.320 it's I think now, so it is worth mentioning. So 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.520 the cas star was invented in the sixties by Michael Morcock. 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.720 Of course there is There's been other eight pointed stars 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.119 over the course of thousands of years of history. Of 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.240 course it is it is. It is like a broad 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:40.879 like geometrical shape. Every kind of star has meant something, yes, 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:45.120 but the specific design was was made by Michael Morcock um. 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:47.560 And then because of because of more cocks like anarchist 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.640 tendencies in fiction, his work was used or at least 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:52.840 appreciated by a lot of the Discordians, which is also 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:56.000 popular around the sixties a lot of the situationists um. 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.520 And then as the Discordian situationist movement kind of morphed 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:03.480 and started to kind of intermingle with parts of occultism, 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.200 we have the chaos magic movement starting in the late seventies, 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.920 which started also using the the Chaos Star, which makes 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:12.960 sense because like what Robert you you were talking about 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:16.360 how it's like it's like it's almost like personifying chaos 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.240 as like a thing to worship um, which is actually 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:22.119 a big part of early chaos magic text is is 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.760 like like reveling in the idea of like chaos is 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:27.919 like a primordial god, which there's there's a lot of 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:31.320 primordial gods um in like the actual world, you know, 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.560 like if you look like through through histories of various cultures, 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.399 like chaos is one of the original primordial gods. So 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:39.280 it is there's a big part of that in early 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.320 chaos magic books about kind of looking at chaos as 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:45.439 this like this very ancient force that should be kind 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.600 of respected, and I think that that is of that 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:50.960 is a big part of why the chaos magicians started 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.000 using uh, the the Star. I mean, obviously there's a 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.840 lot of crossover between like sci fi writers like Robert 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.000 Anton Wilson Um and Michael Moorecock who then Robert Anton 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.719 Wilson was very influential in the chaos magic movement, so 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:04.720 you can see how this gets carried over from like 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:07.680 anarchist sci fi to chaos magic, and then because it's 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:09.879 in chaos magic, it gets way more visibility. So then 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:13.120 it starts then he starts seeing it inside more more 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:17.840 like underground anarchist scenes um. And then so around around 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.560 this time, Dugan was starting his political career, and he 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:22.080 was he was u was dabbling in a lot of 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.280 various like occult circles himself. Right now, he's he's more 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.720 of like a traditionalist, like a more like a Christian traditionalist. 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:31.280 That is kind of his primarily. That is like, is 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:35.240 that is his primary kind of a cult interest as 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.320 long as it can be called a cult. Yeah, it's 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:40.960 it's it's not it's not worth getting too much into 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.879 the weeds on on doing at this point, I think people, 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:45.560 I think it's it's it's worth it. Like like he 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.240 like he because he obviously did rip the he did 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.240 take inspiration from the Chaos Star to make his own 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.280 version of it. He's certainly because he was in those 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:58.720 same circles, a cultic leanings and and a degree of knowledge. 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.120 I think again, with a lot of things, a lot 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:04.320 of things about Dugan are overstated, including his closeness to 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:07.680 putin because he's this really easy in part because he's 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:10.560 like so prolific, and and there's a lot available on 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:12.840 him in English. It's really easy to kind of tie 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:17.480 everything happening in Russia to do him to him. Um. Yeah, 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:19.400 and I think that's kind of a degree of what's 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.840 happening here. There's a website I've forgotten the name of, 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:25.320 but I think it had like a bunch of like 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:30.200 online reproduction of Dugan's various writings from the nineties, all 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:33.800 sorts of weird shit about occultism and Yeah, and yet 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:38.159 I do think that there's a very obvious gulf between 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:42.720 the Dugan of that weird eccentric, like esoteric Nazi sort 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:46.720 of phase of like his relative youth versus today where 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:52.080 he frames his entire rationale for multiplorality as a kind 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:56.600 of Christian a Christian crusade against the hegemony that he 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:02.200 legitimately believes to be a Satanic fire. Yes, basically said that, 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.199 and it's not the only thing he considers satanic, like 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:08.480 like we should point out that like one of the 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:11.520 one of the main forces that were that we're going 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:15.400 like against pussy Riot, where Eurasianists at that of that time, 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:18.639 and he called them like devils and witches and taught 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:22.080 his followers to show up with pitchforks. People in the 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:25.000 West don't really understand them. So you get guys like 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:29.840 when you get both Alexander Reid Ross describing him as 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:33.240 an adherent of chaos magic and some guy from the 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:36.240 National Review referring to him as the leader of a 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:41.640 satanic cult somehow. Yeah, and and boy, I mean, there's 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.919 a long history of people liking to flat liking to 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:50.520 flatten um fascist movements with an occultic tradition to just Satanism. 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:53.560 We're not gonna talk about that at length, but it 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:56.919 whenever whenever you hear people talking about a problem and 0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:59.480 like they reduce it to its satanists, you should be 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:02.520 a little on edge because usually they're wrong or at 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:06.399 least incomplete um and they just have have kind of 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:09.399 over Anyway, we don't need to get terribly into that. 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:11.080 The only the only person I wanted to bring that 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:13.320 up is because like this is around the same time 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:16.480 that people that are fascists, we're trying to enter in 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:19.119 a lot of different politicals, like some cultures, whether it 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:23.240 be like the punk scene and industrial music, um, including 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:26.640 like the the occulture, because that that is like their 0:23:26.680 --> 0:23:30.359 primary means, right, Like they try to like they are 0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:32.640 an aesthetic driven movement, they try to cop to any 0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:35.800 aesthetic and use it for their own gains and to 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:38.960 to kind of overlook the anarchist origins of this thing 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:41.840 just because fascists tried to cop it at some point. 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:43.679 I think it's very silly, because then, like, what are 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:45.880 you going to throw away all punk music like come 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:49.600 up or even like or even like crosses like, yeah, 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:54.600 a fascist still used variations of Christian crosses that still 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:59.520 have essentially political Christian meanings. But I'd probably still assume 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:03.280 that the majority of religious fascists do lean on some 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:07.080 kind of Christianity, And to the extent that there's neopagans involved, 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:10.680 there's sort of a minority. There's a couple of things 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:12.600 that this is. Like. One of them would be kind 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:15.119 of in the United States, fascist co option of of 0:24:15.480 --> 0:24:18.480 the flag of the United States, which we can talk 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:20.880 a lot about like the fact that the United States 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:24.480 is an imperialist power um and the genocide is done 0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:29.320 on under that flag without while still acknowledging that attempts 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:32.159 by fascist movements to co opt it as a purely 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:36.199 fascist symbol are problematic. In part because that symbol, the 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:38.479 United States flag, has a lot of power to a 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:41.199 lot of people. And so if you if the fascists 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:46.119 kind of co opted totally, um, that's a harmful thing. 0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:48.160 That's a thing that can like allow them to get 0:24:48.200 --> 0:24:51.200 their brain worms into more people. Which doesn't mean like 0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:53.960 you should take and wave the US flag, but it 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:57.280 does mean that, like it's just a matter of don't 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:01.919 you don't have to let them take the ground, you know. Um. 0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:04.719 And I think on a kind of a different angle. 0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:07.520 One of the things I think about a lot is, uh, 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:10.639 the first time I went to India, seeing especially in 0:25:10.680 --> 0:25:13.880 a large parts of India, you'll see swastika's hanging over 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:16.440 the doors of many, many houses all over the place. 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:20.040 You'll see them hanging from cars. They're they're constant things. 0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:24.000 And it's only unsettling if you have allowed yourself to 0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:27.200 forget that the swastika is a symbol that the Nazis 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:30.560 stole from another culture, co opted and invested with a 0:25:30.600 --> 0:25:36.479 new meaning. Jan yeah, yeah, And why should people in 0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:39.399 other parts of the world, who have been using it 0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:41.840 for a totally different purpose for thousands of years, why 0:25:41.840 --> 0:25:43.400 should they be like, well, I guess we don't get 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:47.800 this now. It's like in India has had to deal 0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:51.960 with their own fashion. Yes, and and and there's I 0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:55.040 mean again, we're delving into a lot of very deep 0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:56.720 topics because there's a lot to be said about how 0:25:56.800 --> 0:25:59.520 the fact that the Nazis took the swastika lead to 0:26:00.040 --> 0:26:03.160 degrees of sympathy within areas of Indian culture that allowed 0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:06.200 some fascist ideology to creep in. And like that's also 0:26:06.280 --> 0:26:09.159 tied to the fact that both the Nazis and a 0:26:09.200 --> 0:26:11.840 lot of Indian nationalists were fighting against the British Empire. 0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:17.760 It's all very complicated, right. They're guys, guys like vds 0:26:17.840 --> 0:26:21.840 of Our Care did who were founders of the Hinduva movement, Yeah, 0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:25.520 did openly praise Hitler. Oh yeah, Yeah. It's kind of 0:26:25.560 --> 0:26:27.840 easy for some people to think of it as entirely 0:26:27.880 --> 0:26:31.679 motivated by religion, but his whole concept of nationhood is 0:26:31.880 --> 0:26:35.359 entirely racial. Yeah. It says himself that it has nothing 0:26:35.400 --> 0:26:40.640 to do with religion. So yeah, and it's it's it's 0:26:40.640 --> 0:26:42.919 one of those things. If you actually want to understand 0:26:43.000 --> 0:26:45.720 things and engage with them in a useful area, you 0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:48.719 have to understand that history and grapple with it without 0:26:48.800 --> 0:26:52.200 like looking at a year old Hindu temple and going, well, 0:26:52.240 --> 0:26:58.320 I guess they were Nazis hash hash hashtag problematic. Yeah, ugly. 0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:02.320 The last thing actually want to talk about is how 0:27:03.280 --> 0:27:06.080 how how the kind of debate around symbols US to 0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:09.040 symbols has just kind of morphed into just fast jacketing 0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:13.440 anarchists in general and worrying about like, oh, the fascists 0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:16.840 are secretly infiltrating the anarchists and they're gonna turn anarchists 0:27:16.840 --> 0:27:19.040 into fascists. Just pretty silly, because I mean, if you're 0:27:19.040 --> 0:27:21.160 gonna I you're gonna turn anyone into fascists. Think anarchists 0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:23.080 are one of the hardest people to do to do 0:27:23.119 --> 0:27:24.919 that too. This is this is there's a lot of 0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:28.159 other people it's way easier to convince to become fascists 0:27:28.160 --> 0:27:33.200 than when anarchists go fascists they pretty hard well, yeah, 0:27:33.480 --> 0:27:38.400 but they the type of like fear mongering around it 0:27:38.440 --> 0:27:42.199 is still it's really frustrating because like I'm looking at 0:27:42.200 --> 0:27:45.320 all these I'm looking at all these tanky's like fast 0:27:45.359 --> 0:27:48.120 jacketing anarchists for using us for using a symbol created 0:27:48.119 --> 0:27:51.600 by anarchists which has been used by anarchists for decades, right, um, 0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:54.600 But then you also have like Tanky superstar Kalin Malplin 0:27:54.880 --> 0:27:58.720 regularly hanging out with like like Melvin regularly hangs out 0:27:58.720 --> 0:28:01.359 with dougod Of. And then you have someone who's like 0:28:01.359 --> 0:28:04.520 another like pretty like popular, like like tinky influencer like 0:28:04.760 --> 0:28:09.600 Ben Norton who openly uses Dugan's multipolar theory. Right, and 0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:11.720 so if if if, if you're looking for the most 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:16.480 visible example of fascist nationalist rhetoric trying to enter into leftism, 0:28:16.520 --> 0:28:19.600 you should look at like the growing like patriotic communists, 0:28:19.680 --> 0:28:25.399 you know, people people like patriotic socialists, but yeah, the 0:28:25.480 --> 0:28:28.480 idea is basically the same. But yeah, it's like people 0:28:28.480 --> 0:28:32.119 like Peter Coffin and this like growing like patriot communist 0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:35.679 socialist kind of live streamer grifft um, which is like 0:28:35.920 --> 0:28:39.280 because like the easiest entry on the left for fascism 0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:42.800 is informs of nationalist authoritarian communism. Right, It's like you 0:28:42.800 --> 0:28:44.520 know that that's that that is how you get like 0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:47.960 national socialism. Right. Uh. It's like they just had this 0:28:48.040 --> 0:28:50.720 like super cringe e Nauz Bill convention just a few 0:28:50.720 --> 0:28:53.960 weeks ago with with some of the best moments on 0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:57.560 until Will Smith slapped that guy. Yeah, but like you know, 0:28:57.600 --> 0:28:59.960 you have you have like Coffin and Malpin hanging out 0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:02.720 and like Mopid regularly regularly hangs out with Doo Good. 0:29:02.760 --> 0:29:04.480 It's like, if you're gonna lift, if you want to 0:29:04.520 --> 0:29:07.440 be watching out for like a fascist creep, maybe you 0:29:07.440 --> 0:29:09.640 should direct it towards the people and just like doing 0:29:09.640 --> 0:29:11.960 it out in the open and not fast jacketing like 0:29:12.120 --> 0:29:14.200 queer anarchists who have been doing the thing that they've 0:29:14.240 --> 0:29:16.360 been doing for like decades. I guess one of the 0:29:16.400 --> 0:29:20.560 last things I bele mention is, uh, the hilarious incidents 0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:23.960 with the Sith Empire thing of people just fully of 0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:27.440 like fully getting consumed by their own brain worms and 0:29:27.480 --> 0:29:30.720 trying to insist that a Star Wars symbol uh is 0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:35.960 secretly uh fascist chaos star um and then doing the 0:29:36.000 --> 0:29:40.080 same thing to the Warhammer symbol um it is it 0:29:40.200 --> 0:29:44.680 is in in. I mean it's funny because like in 0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:48.160 Star Wars it is a fascist symbol, right, that is, 0:29:48.200 --> 0:29:50.320 that's not a fascist symbol in the real world, but 0:29:50.360 --> 0:29:52.680 it is within the world of of Star Wars that 0:29:52.800 --> 0:29:55.040 is absolutely a fascist. It's also it's also not a 0:29:55.120 --> 0:29:58.080 chaos star. It's not a chaos star. Uh. And in 0:29:58.160 --> 0:30:00.240 Warhammer it is a chaos star, but it's not a 0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:03.719 fascist symbol. It's actually an anti fascist symbol. Within the 0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:08.040 World War you can basically argue that, yeah, because it is. 0:30:08.080 --> 0:30:10.080 It is just frustrating looking at all these people being 0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:12.000 like trying to play trying to play the Wears Waldo 0:30:12.080 --> 0:30:15.840 game just to all like dunkan anarchists, and it's just 0:30:16.000 --> 0:30:18.480 kind of shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the history of 0:30:18.520 --> 0:30:22.320 anarchists culture um, and the history of like anti fascist anarchists. 0:30:22.520 --> 0:30:26.120 You know, most of the anti fascists that I know 0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:29.240 use the chaos star because it's because it's a red symbol. 0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:33.760 It looks rad, it looks cool. Um. And Yeah, trying 0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:36.600 to like in insisting that we must see this ground 0:30:37.040 --> 0:30:40.280 and let fascists use anything that they think is esthetically cool. 0:30:40.680 --> 0:30:42.760 I think is is a first of all, like a 0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:45.160 losing battle to actually just like to just just to 0:30:45.320 --> 0:30:48.280 to to start that now, I think is you would 0:30:48.320 --> 0:30:51.320 have some pretty bad implications for fascism and its use 0:30:51.440 --> 0:30:54.120 of aesthetics. You don't have to give them things just 0:30:54.160 --> 0:30:57.080 because they want to take those things. It makes sense 0:30:57.120 --> 0:30:59.800 that you would see like tankyas do it, because then 0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:03.120 with your tankie you could basically get into a position 0:31:03.200 --> 0:31:08.080 where you can basically discard all sorts of symbolisms and 0:31:08.240 --> 0:31:12.320 just replace everything with like old like Soviet symbology or 0:31:12.360 --> 0:31:15.720 so which is which is obviously not tied to eddie 0:31:15.720 --> 0:31:21.280 a trocity stead of happens, right, Oh, oh it's dentally. 0:31:21.440 --> 0:31:25.240 Don't ever tell them about Georgia. Yeah, don't don't tell 0:31:25.280 --> 0:31:31.960 them about Georgia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Ukraine, that giant lake that 0:31:32.040 --> 0:31:34.360 was like the largest lake in Europe that they turned 0:31:34.400 --> 0:31:36.960 into a pile of poison. You know. Don't mention a 0:31:37.000 --> 0:31:41.160 few things, and Trotsky would be proud considering he wanted 0:31:41.200 --> 0:31:44.880 to turn mountains into like city structure. I mean that 0:31:44.880 --> 0:31:47.960 that actually is one of the things I think Trotsky 0:31:48.600 --> 0:31:53.080 was on the right ball about more ministrits, more minisirats. 0:31:53.160 --> 0:31:57.000 Let's tear it up some mountains. So any any any 0:31:57.080 --> 0:32:01.920 final thoughts on our lovely circular the chaos a chaos star. 0:32:02.680 --> 0:32:06.040 I'm thinking I'm thinking of a quote from like, uh, 0:32:06.360 --> 0:32:09.440 what was his name, Pablo Freer Day. I hope I've 0:32:09.440 --> 0:32:13.040 gotten that name right. A quote I've seen going around 0:32:13.040 --> 0:32:14.920 that I think goes around something to the effect that 0:32:15.240 --> 0:32:18.520 when the point of education isn't liberation, the goal is 0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:22.840 to become the oppressor. Um. You could sort of usually 0:32:23.040 --> 0:32:26.560 that quote is like relevant to like the material processes 0:32:26.600 --> 0:32:31.000 of like being inculcated into a capitalist system. So so 0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:32.640 so you can kind of make the most sense of 0:32:32.680 --> 0:32:36.720 it as basically like you are educated to become a 0:32:36.800 --> 0:32:41.080 boss instead of wanting to abolish all bosses vot. But 0:32:41.080 --> 0:32:43.440 but on but on a micro level, you can sort 0:32:43.480 --> 0:32:47.040 of apply it to the to the ways in which people, 0:32:47.200 --> 0:32:50.880 even in like radical spaces sort of to sort of 0:32:50.920 --> 0:32:54.320 become like self styled cops as it were. That I 0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:57.160 think is a phenomenon that a lot of the unarcho 0:32:57.280 --> 0:33:01.240 nihilist tendency sort of responds to. Anyway, this is coming 0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:04.680 from a perspective that is sort of flirtatious towards an 0:33:04.760 --> 0:33:09.040 arco nihilism, but not necessarily. But it's like you could 0:33:09.520 --> 0:33:12.480 a lot of the interactions with like they like certain 0:33:12.480 --> 0:33:16.320 people demonstrate that. There are some instances of it where 0:33:16.360 --> 0:33:20.960 I think I can't quite tell if it's po or not. Um. 0:33:21.000 --> 0:33:24.000 Somebody I s s somebody posted like a photo of 0:33:24.040 --> 0:33:27.240 themselves with like a like a jacket and they had 0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:30.840 like the upside down cross and the inverted pedogram on board, 0:33:30.880 --> 0:33:35.600 and somebody someone, somebody with like basically no followers who 0:33:35.680 --> 0:33:40.200 somehow blew somehow blew up when they posted that photo 0:33:40.680 --> 0:33:43.360 next to like a Nazi uniform to try and compare 0:33:43.440 --> 0:33:47.560 to the inverted cross to a swastika or no not, 0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:50.240 if not a swastika, then like maybe some other part 0:33:50.240 --> 0:33:53.040 of the jacket and the pentagram to like the arm 0:33:53.120 --> 0:33:56.400 band or something like yeah, yeah, And I think I'm 0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:59.720 still not sure if that was entirely serious. See, that's 0:33:59.800 --> 0:34:02.680 that's the thing is, like we have to be careful, 0:34:02.720 --> 0:34:06.440 like I don't like anarchist in fighting. It's rarely useful, um, 0:34:06.760 --> 0:34:09.719 and we have to be quick to be watchful for 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:11.640 like how much of it is just people trolling or 0:34:11.640 --> 0:34:14.879 people trying to prompt in fighting just for the sake 0:34:14.880 --> 0:34:18.120 of infighting. Right, So if if like I tried for 0:34:18.160 --> 0:34:20.160 a long time to not engage in this debate because 0:34:20.239 --> 0:34:22.719 I don't like talking about this, like I don't like 0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:24.960 in fighting with anarchists. I don't like I don't like 0:34:25.239 --> 0:34:29.000 having these types of debates. So hopefully the next time 0:34:29.040 --> 0:34:30.920 this debate starts. We don't need to because we can 0:34:30.960 --> 0:34:32.600 just we can just point to how this last one 0:34:32.600 --> 0:34:36.200 went and say, no, look, we clearly demonstrated that this 0:34:36.239 --> 0:34:38.040 has a this has a long history of use by 0:34:38.080 --> 0:34:41.680 anarchists and invented by anarchists, and not starting, not starting, 0:34:42.200 --> 0:34:45.120 and not start the debate again because we we don't 0:34:45.200 --> 0:34:46.640 we we don't need to do it, and there's no 0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:48.839 telling if people are doing it sincerely or people doing 0:34:48.840 --> 0:34:51.040 it ironically, or people just doing it just to get 0:34:51.080 --> 0:34:54.279 you know, people upset um. And I mean like if 0:34:54.280 --> 0:34:57.040 you want to look at anarchists and look at I 0:34:57.120 --> 0:34:59.920 where where is right wing people whereas fascist trying to 0:35:00.120 --> 0:35:03.200 kind of blended with anarchists, Like look at like books right, 0:35:03.520 --> 0:35:06.439 look at and d caps right. These people who try 0:35:06.440 --> 0:35:09.040 to claim to be anarchists are very bad and actually 0:35:09.040 --> 0:35:11.600 blending in because they can't help themselves when they start 0:35:11.640 --> 0:35:14.960 talking about like the validity of anarcho capitalism or the 0:35:15.040 --> 0:35:18.080 validity of like small nation states like it's it is, 0:35:18.200 --> 0:35:22.000 it is. It is hard. It's hard to actually infiltrate anarchists. 0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:24.200 This is the thing that the FBI has said multiple 0:35:24.360 --> 0:35:27.200 multiple times. It's hard to actually do so whenever fascists 0:35:27.200 --> 0:35:30.000 try to blend in whether they're boogloo boys, they can't 0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:32.960 help but use their old like boogaloo symbols. They can't help, 0:35:33.000 --> 0:35:35.640 but just like like give hints. It is it is 0:35:35.680 --> 0:35:39.040 astonishing how how bad they are at this thing. So 0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:42.320 also bad at like the protection that they claimed to offer, 0:35:42.480 --> 0:35:44.840 Like there was a there was an article from like 0:35:44.960 --> 0:35:48.399 last year going over oh we're going over well, part 0:35:48.400 --> 0:35:51.000 of it mentioned that they were basically at this like 0:35:51.080 --> 0:35:54.879 purported protests that they were supposed to offer protection from, 0:35:54.920 --> 0:35:56.719 and most and most of what they did was get 0:35:56.800 --> 0:36:00.000 drunk and like this on the sidewalks. The boogloo boys, 0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:02.319 I've seen it, actual protests who are like with like 0:36:02.320 --> 0:36:04.800 with like cops stacking protesters, the bogle of voice of 0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:10.239 the first ones to run because their cowards. Yeah, all right, 0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:14.399 well I guess where can where can people bay? Where 0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:16.000 can people find in you on line? Where can people 0:36:16.400 --> 0:36:19.600 read your read your article like chaos Nihilism and the 0:36:19.640 --> 0:36:24.279 Way of No Surrender WordPress? Basically, um I could I 0:36:24.320 --> 0:36:27.320 call it a site left the rotical domain, but the 0:36:27.719 --> 0:36:30.200 but the link goes like my thoughts born from fire 0:36:30.280 --> 0:36:34.399 dot WordPress dot com. I actually try I actually try 0:36:34.520 --> 0:36:36.680 changing the U r L once I changed it to 0:36:36.719 --> 0:36:39.040 a left the radical domain I think in two Bells 0:36:39.040 --> 0:36:43.080 of thirteen fourteen, but I figured that doing so would 0:36:43.080 --> 0:36:45.520 funk up all of the stats and whatever, so I 0:36:45.560 --> 0:36:48.520 just didn't bother. Well, thank thank you so much for 0:36:48.880 --> 0:36:52.600 kind of writing, I would say, probably the most definitive 0:36:52.640 --> 0:36:54.839 stance on this debate at the moment, which we can 0:36:54.840 --> 0:36:59.680 always point point back to whenever this inevitably comes up again, 0:36:59.680 --> 0:37:02.920 and like a year or two, because I've seen it. 0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:05.200 I've seen it come up like every every few years. 0:37:05.239 --> 0:37:07.640 You see it. So thank you, thank you for that, 0:37:07.680 --> 0:37:10.960 and thank you for coming on. Um yeah, if you 0:37:10.960 --> 0:37:13.200 want to follow follow us, you can do it at 0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:15.200 the thing, you know, the thing, you know what our 0:37:15.239 --> 0:37:18.279 Instagram had happened here pod and cool Zone Media. You 0:37:18.280 --> 0:37:22.120 can look at my unhinged chaos tweets at Hungry bow Tie. 0:37:22.560 --> 0:37:28.160 Um yeah, nothing is true and everything is permitted. Also 0:37:28.320 --> 0:37:30.959 at a skatinus is where I go to like sort 0:37:30.960 --> 0:37:35.560 of ramble about politics and occasionally the occult and other things. 0:37:36.280 --> 0:37:38.120 We do. We do. We do love a good we 0:37:38.160 --> 0:37:40.920 do love a good ramble. All right, that that that 0:37:40.920 --> 0:37:59.399 doesn't for us today, Uh, funk fascists, Nazi punks, fuck off, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. 0:38:02.000 --> 0:38:05.239 Welcome to it could happen here the only podcast where 0:38:05.239 --> 0:38:09.040 the hosts asks all listeners and guests to provide their 0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:14.759 Social Security number and bank account number, routing number, all 0:38:14.800 --> 0:38:18.600 that good stuff. UM. This is a podcast about how 0:38:18.680 --> 0:38:21.279 things aren't always great, uh, and maybe are kind of 0:38:21.280 --> 0:38:24.480 falling apart a little bit. And and it has also 0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:29.000 not been, for the most part, a podcast about the 0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:32.920 expanded war in Ukraine. UM, for a variety of reasons. 0:38:33.200 --> 0:38:36.360 We have done some coverage of that, but we've focused 0:38:36.400 --> 0:38:40.800 specifically on stories of individual people and and that's generally 0:38:40.800 --> 0:38:43.800 where I feel like our strength is as a program. 0:38:43.840 --> 0:38:46.359 But people have been repeatedly requesting we do a little 0:38:46.360 --> 0:38:48.640 bit of a bigger picture look at what's gone on 0:38:48.719 --> 0:38:51.759 in that conflict, and so I have brought Aram Chambanian 0:38:52.280 --> 0:38:55.640 into the studio. Aram, how are you doing, buddy? Oh? 0:38:55.719 --> 0:38:57.960 Not too bad man? How you doing today? Fine and 0:38:58.040 --> 0:39:01.799 dandy like sour candy. Now, would you describe kind of 0:39:01.880 --> 0:39:05.560 your your who you are and what you do and 0:39:05.560 --> 0:39:09.120 why why you're you're someone people should listen to when 0:39:09.160 --> 0:39:12.160 we're talking about a conflict like this, because you are 0:39:12.239 --> 0:39:15.000 one of the people who when everyone was like, there's 0:39:15.040 --> 0:39:18.759 no way Russia will invade, was was saying, well, maybe 0:39:19.200 --> 0:39:23.120 it might happen. Yeah, I mean, um well, I think 0:39:23.280 --> 0:39:25.319 one of the things that that sets me aside from 0:39:25.320 --> 0:39:27.080 a lot of other analysts out there is that I 0:39:27.120 --> 0:39:29.239 never thought I would become an analyst, and I never 0:39:29.280 --> 0:39:32.040 thought that I would do this. Um. I it wasn't 0:39:32.080 --> 0:39:34.160 set in stone from me. From the beginning. I thought 0:39:34.160 --> 0:39:35.920 I was going to be like a high school history teacher. 0:39:36.000 --> 0:39:38.920 And so I've always studied the world in terms of 0:39:38.920 --> 0:39:41.520 reading books on different conflicts around the world, and and 0:39:41.560 --> 0:39:44.920 I've tried to keep appraised on where these books have 0:39:45.040 --> 0:39:46.960 led to. Right, So if I read a book about 0:39:47.160 --> 0:39:50.200 the Second Congo War, it makes sense to then follow 0:39:50.320 --> 0:39:52.920 current events that are related to what happened after the 0:39:52.960 --> 0:39:56.239 Second Congo War. As a result, I followed things going 0:39:56.280 --> 0:40:00.200 on in Ukraine starting with year am I done? Um 0:40:00.200 --> 0:40:02.319 and elsewhere in the world, But but Ukraine has been 0:40:02.360 --> 0:40:06.160 one that I've focused on pretty heavily because um there's 0:40:06.160 --> 0:40:09.160 been a lot of information about Ukraine ever since because 0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:12.240 of how late the war happened in terms of human history, 0:40:12.400 --> 0:40:16.560 and in terms of recent conflicts, isn't that long ago? 0:40:17.160 --> 0:40:20.839 UM and so uh, I started following it back then. 0:40:20.960 --> 0:40:25.360 And I think that if you combine modern open source tools, 0:40:25.600 --> 0:40:29.200 modern technology, some of the stuff that organizations like Belling 0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:32.960 Cat can do with traditional research and and and knowledge 0:40:33.040 --> 0:40:35.319 some of the stuff that I've done in school, you 0:40:35.400 --> 0:40:39.879 have a really powerful tool to combat disinformation. UM. And 0:40:39.920 --> 0:40:41.120 I think that's one of the best tools we have 0:40:41.160 --> 0:40:45.320 to combat disinformation is wedding oh sent with traditional research UM. 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:49.440 And Yeah, when it comes to open source intelligence, UM, 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:52.560 the Ukrainian War is actually kind of one of the 0:40:52.680 --> 0:40:55.319 It's not the conflict where that really started to become 0:40:55.320 --> 0:40:57.239 a thing. That would probably be the Libyan Civil War 0:40:57.360 --> 0:41:01.040 when when that UM big and to be something people 0:41:01.040 --> 0:41:03.880 were talking about in a big way. But the Ukrainian 0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:08.080 the invasion of Ukraine by Russia in particular in two 0:41:08.080 --> 0:41:12.560 thousand fourteen, UM is really where open source intelligence kind 0:41:12.560 --> 0:41:16.399 of came into its own in a really widely known way. 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:20.600 That's when Belling Cats reporting on the downing of MH 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:22.520 on seven like went out, and that was kind of 0:41:22.560 --> 0:41:28.000 like the first first really huge international story involving like 0:41:28.080 --> 0:41:32.840 open source intelligent cracking a case. Um, and now since 0:41:32.960 --> 0:41:37.239 the expanded invasion of Russia back in February, we've kind 0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:40.800 of entered and again this isn't really where this period started, 0:41:40.840 --> 0:41:43.759 but this has been kind of we've seen an explosion 0:41:43.880 --> 0:41:46.040 of what I think would be fair to call open 0:41:46.080 --> 0:41:52.600 source intelligence disinformation. Um. Yeah, you want to talk a 0:41:52.640 --> 0:41:54.799 little bit about kind of some of the stuff that 0:41:54.840 --> 0:41:57.240 you've seen, because there's there's a number of accounts claiming 0:41:57.280 --> 0:42:00.640 to be doing os and on the Ukrainian war, um, 0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:04.279 and boy howdy, they are not all giving out good information, 0:42:04.360 --> 0:42:07.279 and it can be difficult for people to tell what 0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:09.719 they should trust because if you're if you're kind of 0:42:09.760 --> 0:42:13.319 just scanning over it, bad ocean or even outright fake 0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:16.879 ocean can look very similar to good ocean, right and 0:42:16.880 --> 0:42:19.120 and so I would put a lot of the ocean 0:42:19.200 --> 0:42:24.839 community into four rough categories. Uh there's uh osan analysts 0:42:24.840 --> 0:42:27.520 and those are pretty rare. Those are the kind of 0:42:27.520 --> 0:42:30.239 people who combine what they're seeing in real time on 0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:33.600 social media with a background of knowledge in the area. 0:42:33.680 --> 0:42:37.160 So like a Ukraine regional expert combining that with what 0:42:37.200 --> 0:42:40.400 they're seeing happen in Ukraine. That's an ocean analyst. There's 0:42:40.440 --> 0:42:43.879 some Twitter accounts that are more ocean aggregators. They don't 0:42:43.920 --> 0:42:46.279 really have much analysis that put into what they're what 0:42:46.280 --> 0:42:49.200 they're producing, but they spit out a lot of information 0:42:49.360 --> 0:42:51.680 in real time, and so if you follow the right 0:42:51.760 --> 0:42:54.640 ones that use the right sources, you can get some 0:42:54.719 --> 0:42:57.759 pretty decent information from them. Then there's more of the 0:42:57.840 --> 0:43:00.840 misinformation aggregators, which are accounts that just kind of spread 0:43:00.840 --> 0:43:03.520 whatever they see without regards to whether it's true or not. 0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:09.600 Um they'll sensationalized stories. You know, if there's the uh 0:43:09.680 --> 0:43:12.360 a rare command and control plane takes off somewhere in 0:43:12.360 --> 0:43:15.560 America that's known as the doomsday plane during the Cold War, 0:43:15.840 --> 0:43:17.799 they'll tweet out the doomsday plane is in the air. 0:43:17.920 --> 0:43:21.160 Doesn't mean the clear war right, And they're not doing 0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:23.400 it to be hurtful, they're doing it for likes. And 0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:27.080 then there's disinformation aggregators who are deliberately out there trying 0:43:27.080 --> 0:43:30.439 to sow discord and so problems. And those are four 0:43:30.480 --> 0:43:32.520 categories that I've seen all of them develop in their 0:43:32.560 --> 0:43:36.080 own ways in the last ten years. UM. I think 0:43:36.120 --> 0:43:40.040 the best best example of that final category, there's an 0:43:40.040 --> 0:43:43.520 account on Twitter called s MM Syria and If you 0:43:43.560 --> 0:43:46.360 look at the account, it looks almost identical to the 0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:50.680 os CES Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine. It takes the 0:43:50.719 --> 0:43:52.640 same kind of graphics and it has the same kind 0:43:52.640 --> 0:43:57.080 of terminology, but it's an assaddist disinformation outlet and so 0:43:57.280 --> 0:44:00.040 but they've woven their way into if you just like 0:44:00.120 --> 0:44:02.440 a casual glance at the war in Syria, you might 0:44:02.520 --> 0:44:05.879 believe that it's a valid source. And that's the kind 0:44:05.920 --> 0:44:08.800 of more malicious disinformation that I'm talking about, where like 0:44:09.120 --> 0:44:11.799 they know what they're doing and they're trying to confuse people, 0:44:12.480 --> 0:44:15.160 and it's there's you know, I think one of the 0:44:15.239 --> 0:44:20.080 best examples of something that really struck me recently as 0:44:20.160 --> 0:44:22.600 problematic in in the war in Ukraine, as you've got 0:44:22.640 --> 0:44:26.520 a video going around um of that purports to show 0:44:26.800 --> 0:44:32.200 Ukrainian soldiers shooting captured Russian soldiers um which is a 0:44:32.239 --> 0:44:35.480 war crime. And uh, I think credible people within the 0:44:35.560 --> 0:44:38.839 Ocean community have said this is something that desperately needs 0:44:38.880 --> 0:44:42.560 to be investigated more seriously. This this like is very 0:44:42.960 --> 0:44:45.239 has a very good chance of being legitimate and people 0:44:45.239 --> 0:44:48.280 should be looking into this. Whereas you've also seen folks 0:44:48.320 --> 0:44:52.560 who kind of reflectively jumped to defend Ukraine against these 0:44:52.560 --> 0:44:56.360 allegations putting out what I think is fairly shoddy ocean 0:44:56.640 --> 0:44:59.360 claiming to show like issues with the video and stuff, 0:44:59.400 --> 0:45:02.719 and it's like circling blurry sections of the video and 0:45:02.880 --> 0:45:04.799 saying like this is you know, looks like it could 0:45:04.800 --> 0:45:07.040 be edited, or this doesn't look credible, and it is 0:45:07.120 --> 0:45:09.799 the kind of thing. I think One reason people can 0:45:09.840 --> 0:45:12.400 get tripped up by that is prior to the invasion 0:45:12.440 --> 0:45:15.080 of Ukraine, there were some Russian false flag events that 0:45:15.200 --> 0:45:18.720 involved like cadavers, bodies that had been autopsy and stuff, 0:45:18.719 --> 0:45:21.000 which was broken down by people like Elliot Higgins at 0:45:21.040 --> 0:45:23.520 Belling cat Um and one of the things that again 0:45:23.640 --> 0:45:25.719 if you're just kind of looking at the surface level, 0:45:26.040 --> 0:45:28.560 you can see like, oh, well that those were videos 0:45:28.640 --> 0:45:31.359 that were faked, and so these like the o cent 0:45:31.480 --> 0:45:33.960 around this people like pointing out different sections of the 0:45:34.040 --> 0:45:37.920 video looks the same. Some of the differences are for example, Um, 0:45:38.239 --> 0:45:41.479 when they were analyzing the bodies and those those false 0:45:41.520 --> 0:45:47.560 flag footage, they brought in actual you know, corpse cutter ruppers, morticians, yes, 0:45:47.760 --> 0:45:50.400 to analyze like the cuts in the in the skulls 0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:53.040 and whatnot, as opposed to again just kind of a 0:45:53.080 --> 0:45:55.400 guy circling aspects of a video and being like this 0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:58.239 doesn't seem right, and it's like, um, but you can 0:45:58.320 --> 0:46:00.320 I can see why people get tripped up by it, 0:46:00.480 --> 0:46:02.840 and it it is important not to get tripped up 0:46:02.880 --> 0:46:06.080 by that kind of stuff because um, war crimes are bad, 0:46:06.480 --> 0:46:08.759 I think is a general attitude that we we both 0:46:08.840 --> 0:46:12.560 share um and and should be investigated regardless of like 0:46:12.719 --> 0:46:15.879 whether or not they're being done by the side who's 0:46:15.880 --> 0:46:18.600 also towing Russian tanks away with tractors. That you're you're 0:46:18.640 --> 0:46:20.879 on the side of right, like right, And I think 0:46:20.920 --> 0:46:24.080 that that's that's exactly an important distinction to because like, 0:46:24.680 --> 0:46:26.920 there are certain claims that have come out from the 0:46:27.040 --> 0:46:29.839 Ukrainian side, certain statements that have come out that as 0:46:29.920 --> 0:46:33.360 an osan analyst, I could probably look into more and 0:46:33.560 --> 0:46:36.160 maybe poke holes and stuff like the number of kills 0:46:36.280 --> 0:46:40.560 that the ghost of keys, right, Okay, maybe it's not 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:42.600 thirty kills or whatever it is that people are saying, 0:46:42.760 --> 0:46:47.680 maybe he's not really, but that's not harmful as much 0:46:47.800 --> 0:46:50.960 as did these guys shoot people in the legs? Right? Right? 0:46:51.040 --> 0:46:54.360 So one of those bears examination just because of the 0:46:54.480 --> 0:46:56.840 nature of the claim. The other one maybe we can 0:46:56.920 --> 0:46:59.600 examine it after the war when it's not it doesn't 0:46:59.640 --> 0:47:03.320 really matter. If there is a Ukrainian ace fighter pilot 0:47:03.360 --> 0:47:05.920 who's dropped a bunch of a crazy number like obviously 0:47:05.920 --> 0:47:08.520 in a military sense of Russian jets are being down to, 0:47:08.640 --> 0:47:11.600 that doesn't matter. But like from the perspective of people 0:47:11.719 --> 0:47:15.640 just kind of observing this war as as news consumers, 0:47:15.719 --> 0:47:18.480 it doesn't really matter, whereas whether or not a country 0:47:18.560 --> 0:47:22.080 gets away with a war crime absolutely matters, and people 0:47:22.120 --> 0:47:24.680 are treating it with the same reflective handwave as they 0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:28.440 do when they accept these ghost of Kiev yes myths. Right, 0:47:28.600 --> 0:47:30.440 they're saying like, well, no, but I want the Ukrainian 0:47:30.480 --> 0:47:32.960 side to win this war, so we can't even look 0:47:33.000 --> 0:47:35.120 into any claims of war crimes. And that's just not 0:47:35.160 --> 0:47:38.280 how it's supposed to be. Like you condemn the crimes 0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:41.760 up front, and you investigate and you try to move forward, 0:47:41.880 --> 0:47:44.320 and that's how we prove that we're better than the 0:47:44.400 --> 0:47:47.919 opposing side. Like that's that's been the rule in this war, 0:47:48.080 --> 0:47:50.000 and it's been the rule in war's past. You know, 0:47:50.320 --> 0:47:52.680 you you prove that you're better than your opponents by 0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:56.839 being more decent. Yeah, and it's it's I have seen 0:47:56.920 --> 0:47:59.960 some really unsettling logic from some people along the line 0:48:00.160 --> 0:48:03.400 of like, well, these were artillerymen who have been you know, 0:48:03.520 --> 0:48:06.919 shelling civilian areas, so why shouldn't they be be shot 0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:09.239 in the leg? And the answer is because, like that's 0:48:09.320 --> 0:48:12.480 number one, it is a war crime to shoot captured prisoners. 0:48:12.640 --> 0:48:14.800 Likely that that is a thing that we as a 0:48:15.040 --> 0:48:18.920 as a species have attempted to make illegal um and 0:48:19.239 --> 0:48:20.920 problems and ought to be it is a thing that 0:48:21.080 --> 0:48:22.759 like should not be done. And there's actually of a 0:48:22.800 --> 0:48:25.840 wide variety of like tactical reasons why it's bad for Ukraine. 0:48:26.120 --> 0:48:29.360 If Russian soldiers believe they will be shot after being captured, 0:48:29.440 --> 0:48:31.839 it makes, among other things, it makes soldiers less likely 0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:35.640 to turn themselves in. UM. One of the wiser decisions 0:48:35.719 --> 0:48:37.799 that the Ukrainian government has made in this war has 0:48:37.880 --> 0:48:42.920 been really deliberately pushing um the idea that like, hey, Russians, 0:48:43.000 --> 0:48:46.719 if you surrender, will pay you, you can get Ukrainian citizenship, 0:48:46.880 --> 0:48:49.280 Like bring in your tanks, you know, land your planes 0:48:49.360 --> 0:48:51.600 or whatever, like, well, you know, we'll make it worth 0:48:51.680 --> 0:48:55.920 your while. Um, which is a lot which is potentially 0:48:56.000 --> 0:48:59.319 a force multiplier, right, UM, If Russian soldiers think when 0:48:59.360 --> 0:49:01.600 I get captured, they will shoot me. Then they will 0:49:01.640 --> 0:49:04.000 fight to the death, and Ukraine will lose more people 0:49:04.520 --> 0:49:07.439 in that fight, as opposed to if Russian soldiers think, well, ship, 0:49:07.520 --> 0:49:10.000 I could actually have a pretty decent life if I 0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:12.319 just turned myself into these guys and refused to fight. 0:49:12.719 --> 0:49:15.800 That means less people you have to fight. Um. So 0:49:15.920 --> 0:49:18.920 it it does. It does really matter whether or not 0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:23.320 this is happening. Um. And it's also just like on 0:49:23.400 --> 0:49:25.520 a moral level, you you shouldn't accept it. And I 0:49:25.600 --> 0:49:27.640 see some really I think one of the things that 0:49:27.880 --> 0:49:31.520 I find so unsettling about that logic like these are uh, 0:49:31.920 --> 0:49:35.120 these are you know, artillerymen who have been targeting civilian areas. 0:49:35.120 --> 0:49:37.920 Why shouldn't they be shot? Um, it's not that much 0:49:37.960 --> 0:49:40.120 of a leap to like some other ship we saw 0:49:40.200 --> 0:49:43.520 people saying in Vietnam, you know, these villages are harboring insurgents. 0:49:43.560 --> 0:49:45.800 Why shouldn't we treat them like the enemy? You know, 0:49:45.960 --> 0:49:49.040 Like all of this logic leads to people getting murdered 0:49:49.040 --> 0:49:53.000 who don't deserve to get murdered, and that is bad. Right. 0:49:53.120 --> 0:49:55.520 There's the snowball effect, the slippery slope effect with the 0:49:55.600 --> 0:49:57.080 moral side of it, and then like you're saying the 0:49:57.120 --> 0:49:59.120 practical side of it. I mean, if you look at 0:50:00.040 --> 0:50:02.560 part of the reason members of ISIS fought so hard 0:50:02.600 --> 0:50:06.400 in places like most of which because once you're in 0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:09.040 that organization, your options are a bullet or like a 0:50:09.200 --> 0:50:12.279 desert cell. If you're lucky, they're not going to treat 0:50:12.320 --> 0:50:14.920 you well and reintegrate you into society. Come on, like, no, 0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:17.279 that's not how it works, so you fight like hell, 0:50:18.120 --> 0:50:20.959 you know that's that's a very basic rule. That's pretty 0:50:20.960 --> 0:50:24.400 easy to understand, I would think. So that's why this 0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:26.800 needs to be looked into. And if it's proven false, 0:50:28.120 --> 0:50:30.439 if it's proven it to not be a correct true video, 0:50:30.960 --> 0:50:32.880 that just strengthens the Ukrainian side. But if it is 0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:35.000 proven to be true, it's something that needs to be investigated. 0:50:35.040 --> 0:50:37.160 It can't be overlooked. It can't be swept under the 0:50:37.239 --> 0:50:39.680 under the rug. Just because we we want one side 0:50:39.719 --> 0:50:41.880 of this war to come out on top doesn't mean 0:50:41.920 --> 0:50:45.520 that we have to ignore you're committing Like one, A 0:50:45.840 --> 0:50:48.879 good rule of thumb to approach a war from when 0:50:48.920 --> 0:50:52.200 you're trying to analyze it is that there there has 0:50:52.280 --> 0:50:54.560 never been a side in a war who have not 0:50:54.719 --> 0:50:58.600 committed war crimes. Um. So that should always be on 0:50:58.640 --> 0:51:00.640 your mind when you're trying to evaluate the reality of 0:51:00.680 --> 0:51:02.040 a war crame. It doesn't mean every claim of a 0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:04.560 war crime is true. That would be a very silly 0:51:04.600 --> 0:51:06.440 way to translate that. But it does mean that when 0:51:06.840 --> 0:51:09.040 there is a claim that the side you support has 0:51:09.080 --> 0:51:11.719 been responsible for a war crime, your default should be 0:51:12.040 --> 0:51:15.080 this is not impossible, and I should I should proceed 0:51:15.160 --> 0:51:17.239 from the area that this could have happened, and and 0:51:17.360 --> 0:51:21.040 it should be analyzed without reflectively dismissing it, and also 0:51:21.120 --> 0:51:23.640 without saying that like war crimes committed by a group 0:51:23.719 --> 0:51:26.080 of soldiers in a single part of a theater necessarily 0:51:26.200 --> 0:51:29.800 mean that the the war itself is being prosecuted in 0:51:29.840 --> 0:51:33.080 a criminal level by that government. Um. Because for example, well, 0:51:33.080 --> 0:51:36.360 I mean I was about to say U. S. Soldiers 0:51:36.360 --> 0:51:38.880 committed war crimes in World War Two, but actually the 0:51:38.960 --> 0:51:40.920 prosecution of that war was criminal in a lot of 0:51:40.960 --> 0:51:47.960 fundamental ways. But it does. That doesn't mean that like 0:51:48.160 --> 0:51:51.520 your granddad committed war crimes because other U. S. Soldiers 0:51:51.560 --> 0:51:56.799 who were in the field executed captured German POW's you know, um, Yeah, 0:51:57.239 --> 0:51:59.000 which I think is something people have an easier time 0:51:59.080 --> 0:52:01.879 understanding and it's not a war. They feel the need 0:52:01.960 --> 0:52:05.719 to have a series of character or less takes on 0:52:05.920 --> 0:52:09.880 in Twitter. Yeah, it's That's the weirdest thing about about 0:52:10.200 --> 0:52:13.880 the social media age and and kind of sent in general, 0:52:14.040 --> 0:52:17.279 is that while it does make it very accessible and 0:52:17.400 --> 0:52:21.960 easy for anybody to get involved in investigating these crimes 0:52:22.000 --> 0:52:24.920 and these events, it also means that everybody thinks they 0:52:24.920 --> 0:52:28.080 have an opinion that matters on it and uh and 0:52:28.280 --> 0:52:30.799 and in that sense, they muddy the waters. They they 0:52:31.360 --> 0:52:34.520 a lot of people can can imitate the ocent look 0:52:34.600 --> 0:52:38.000 pretty well. They can circle things in pictures that look similar, 0:52:38.200 --> 0:52:40.600 or as we saw in Syria, a lot they'd take 0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:44.160 two pictures of two totally different dudes and say these 0:52:44.200 --> 0:52:46.160 are the same guy, they're both members of Al Nustra 0:52:46.560 --> 0:52:49.760 are something like that, and they would compare the eyes 0:52:49.800 --> 0:52:51.680 and compare the chins and stuff, and it looks kind 0:52:51.680 --> 0:52:54.520 of like a belling cat image, but it wasn't right. 0:52:56.560 --> 0:52:59.600 That's the danger here is that like everybody can can help, 0:52:59.680 --> 0:53:01.919 but every what he can hurt now too, Yeah, yeah, 0:53:01.960 --> 0:53:05.920 And it's one of those things, every every aspect of 0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:09.320 this cuts both ways, because like the thing people started saying. Rightfully, 0:53:09.400 --> 0:53:12.600 so after the invasion or the expanded invasion I should 0:53:12.640 --> 0:53:15.399 say of Ukraine by Russia is like, well, now all 0:53:15.440 --> 0:53:17.919 of these people who were experts in whatever the last 0:53:17.960 --> 0:53:19.960 big story was are going to become experts on the 0:53:20.080 --> 0:53:22.880 Ukrainian conflict, right, which is absolutely a thing that happened. 0:53:22.880 --> 0:53:24.480 You get all of these people who I think are 0:53:25.239 --> 0:53:28.680 pretty bad journalists and reporters who suddenly like rushed to 0:53:28.880 --> 0:53:30.880 to have their commentary on this thing that they have 0:53:30.920 --> 0:53:34.320 ignored for the last eight years. Um. But at the 0:53:34.400 --> 0:53:37.200 same time, it's to talk about Belling Cat. The founder 0:53:37.280 --> 0:53:39.960 of Belling Cat, my old boss, Elliott Higgins, was like 0:53:40.200 --> 0:53:43.480 literally an unemployed dude sitting on his couch when he 0:53:43.560 --> 0:53:47.160 started analyzing war footage um and is now one of 0:53:47.320 --> 0:53:50.800 the most respected conflict analysts in the world. UM. And 0:53:50.920 --> 0:53:53.480 that is a thing the Internet has made possible. UM. 0:53:53.560 --> 0:53:56.880 I think a great example would be the Caliber Obscura Twitter, 0:53:57.000 --> 0:53:59.480 which is just like a dude in the UK who 0:53:59.600 --> 0:54:04.760 has an almost impossible ability to recognize firearms and pieces 0:54:04.800 --> 0:54:08.960 of firearms and so just analyzes people send him footage 0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:10.880 from all over the planet and he'll say, like, these 0:54:10.880 --> 0:54:12.480 are these guns? And this is where they came from. 0:54:12.560 --> 0:54:14.840 And this is uh, this one is like looks like 0:54:14.920 --> 0:54:18.279 this kind of gun, but it's actually, um, a fake 0:54:18.360 --> 0:54:20.640 one that's being made locally in this country, and it 0:54:20.760 --> 0:54:22.120 is supposed to look like this. And you can tell 0:54:22.160 --> 0:54:25.759 because like, um, that's not a person who Caliber did 0:54:25.840 --> 0:54:29.000 not like go to some sort of fancy gun school. 0:54:29.080 --> 0:54:32.200 They just are Uh. I mean, it's definitely not right 0:54:32.200 --> 0:54:34.239 to call them an amateur because quite frankly, I don't 0:54:34.280 --> 0:54:37.319 know any people who are working at institutes and better 0:54:37.400 --> 0:54:40.560 at the thing that Caliber does than Caliber is right, Um, 0:54:40.600 --> 0:54:42.640 But they did just start as a person on Twitter. 0:54:42.800 --> 0:54:45.440 You know. Well, that's the thing about this, this is 0:54:45.520 --> 0:54:48.919 that you get people who were not kind of born 0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:51.280 with an idea that they were going to become analysts 0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:54.120 and in this field. And so you have people like 0:54:54.400 --> 0:54:56.680 both of both of the people you mentioned, whom I 0:54:56.840 --> 0:54:59.080 I know personal I don't know Elliott personally, but I 0:54:59.160 --> 0:55:02.239 remember him for our days are shared days on a 0:55:02.360 --> 0:55:06.800 comedy website together. It's the website that show remained nameless, 0:55:08.560 --> 0:55:13.120 right Um. And then and then you know, uh, Caliber 0:55:13.160 --> 0:55:15.200 and I have talked on Twitter a bunch, and you 0:55:15.239 --> 0:55:17.080 know we're friends there and it's just interesting to see that, 0:55:17.120 --> 0:55:20.400 like both of them are very real people behind like 0:55:20.560 --> 0:55:24.799 their professional personality and their their expertise, they're also down 0:55:24.880 --> 0:55:27.680 to earth, real people, which is rare in this field 0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:30.480 because a lot of people are kind of elitist. Um 0:55:30.680 --> 0:55:34.520 and and and yeah Gatekeeper and neither of them are 0:55:34.640 --> 0:55:37.080 about that. They're both all about like getting as many 0:55:37.120 --> 0:55:40.319 people doing this as possible because more eyes are better, Like, yeah, 0:55:40.960 --> 0:55:43.040 Elliott is is uh, I mean, the whole reason my 0:55:43.160 --> 0:55:45.920 career with Belling Cat existed is because, like I emailed 0:55:45.960 --> 0:55:47.480 him out of the blue one day and said, hey, 0:55:47.520 --> 0:55:50.360 I've been noticing this weird thing in videos of fascists 0:55:50.960 --> 0:55:52.960 talking to cops. Can I write a thing for you? 0:55:53.200 --> 0:55:55.640 And he was just like okay, And and that was 0:55:55.880 --> 0:55:57.960 I mean, like that was how that started. Um And 0:55:58.080 --> 0:56:00.719 he's I've met him since a couple at times, and yeah, 0:56:00.760 --> 0:56:04.360 it is a very I think is very informed. Because 0:56:04.440 --> 0:56:06.600 of the fact that he did not come from sort 0:56:06.600 --> 0:56:10.240 of this big institutional background. UM has has a humility 0:56:10.520 --> 0:56:14.439 with which he approaches his investigations that, uh, I think 0:56:15.239 --> 0:56:17.480 is one of the things you should look for in 0:56:17.600 --> 0:56:20.880 trying to decide whether or not open source intelligence that 0:56:20.920 --> 0:56:23.879 you're seeing on Twitter. Whatever is credible is how how 0:56:24.760 --> 0:56:28.319 how conclusive are they stating their claims? Are? How many 0:56:28.400 --> 0:56:30.800 times do they offer only a single possibility for what 0:56:31.000 --> 0:56:33.960 something is? Like? Um, you know, there's a number of 0:56:34.000 --> 0:56:36.279 things you can do. I think at this point we 0:56:36.280 --> 0:56:39.600 should probably move to a separate area of discussion, which 0:56:39.680 --> 0:56:46.840 is how's the how's this war going? Who, who's who's winning? What? Um? Well, so, 0:56:47.000 --> 0:56:51.040 I I made a statement on my Facebook page, my 0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:53.919 personal Facebook page, three weeks ago, and I still feel 0:56:53.960 --> 0:56:57.040 confident in that statement, and that is that well, Ukraine 0:56:57.120 --> 0:57:00.839 has yet to win this war. Sha has already lost. 0:57:01.040 --> 0:57:04.400 They've already lost their objectives, They've already lost what they 0:57:04.560 --> 0:57:06.239 what their goals were. And at this point it's a 0:57:06.320 --> 0:57:09.400 face saving venture on the Russian part. But a raum um. 0:57:10.239 --> 0:57:14.279 Russia carried out a cutting faint action to distract while 0:57:14.320 --> 0:57:17.080 they while they took the East by burning a fifth 0:57:17.120 --> 0:57:20.040 of their general staff and all of their armored vehicles. 0:57:20.680 --> 0:57:23.400 It was a cunning fat Yeah I saw someone on 0:57:23.520 --> 0:57:29.200 Twitter positive actually uh a move to use up all 0:57:29.200 --> 0:57:35.440 of Ukraine's ammunition. Brilliant, Yeah, just very very zab Brannigan logic. 0:57:35.880 --> 0:57:41.440 Half of Vladimir Putin. Ukrainians have a preset kill limit 0:57:41.480 --> 0:57:44.479 and once they hit ten generals, the army will shut down. 0:57:46.760 --> 0:57:48.480 But no, the war is not going well for Russia. 0:57:48.960 --> 0:57:51.120 Um and that's not to say that it's going great 0:57:51.160 --> 0:57:54.960 for Ukraine either, but no one needs to do less 0:57:55.040 --> 0:58:01.200 well to succeed here. Yes, it's a I mean because 0:58:01.240 --> 0:58:02.920 one of the things that is a black box, right. 0:58:03.040 --> 0:58:05.800 I do think because there was a lot of discussion 0:58:05.880 --> 0:58:08.040 earlier in the ward, particularly like how credible are these 0:58:08.120 --> 0:58:10.920 numbers that the Ukrainian government is putting out for for 0:58:11.040 --> 0:58:14.520 dead and for destroyed vehicles? And I think the oceans 0:58:14.960 --> 0:58:18.160 out there, like the verified vehicle casualties and stuff that 0:58:18.160 --> 0:58:21.040 we can verify, means that like obviously the Ukrainian government 0:58:21.160 --> 0:58:24.080 is patting their numbers, but not by as much as 0:58:24.160 --> 0:58:27.280 a lot of people might have, like it's not wildly off. 0:58:28.360 --> 0:58:31.080 Saw their first casualty account. I think first casual account. 0:58:31.080 --> 0:58:35.920 I think it was like day two or three, and 0:58:36.000 --> 0:58:38.080 then like all of the western and held me. Yeah, 0:58:38.520 --> 0:58:44.360 actually yeah, it's probably about two Oh my god. Wow. Yeah. 0:58:44.960 --> 0:58:47.320 In perspective for some people who may not that number 0:58:47.400 --> 0:58:50.640 may not jump out to them. We lost you know, 0:58:51.160 --> 0:58:54.360 just shy of three thousand soldiers killed during the Iraq Wars. 0:58:54.440 --> 0:58:57.120 So yeah, two thousand in a couple of days is 0:58:57.280 --> 0:59:00.480 an extraordinary number of losses. Yeah. And of course the 0:59:00.520 --> 0:59:02.520 black box here we don't have nearly as good an 0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:05.320 information on is what kind of casualties is the Ukrainian 0:59:05.400 --> 0:59:08.320 military suffered and what kind of civilian casualties have been suffered? 0:59:08.480 --> 0:59:13.640 And um, Obviously civilian casualties nearly always take much longer 0:59:13.760 --> 0:59:16.240 to get, um to the extent that it's ever. I 0:59:16.320 --> 0:59:19.720 think we have a better chance of getting objective civilian 0:59:19.800 --> 0:59:22.280 casualties for this because, unlike a lot of other conflicts, 0:59:22.400 --> 0:59:27.160 these civilians being killed, our civilians under the ages of 0:59:27.240 --> 0:59:30.440 a government that is a functional state, as opposed to Syria, 0:59:30.520 --> 0:59:34.400 for example, where the there's basically the only people with 0:59:34.440 --> 0:59:36.760 an interest in accurately reporting the death count are a 0:59:36.880 --> 0:59:42.280 number of different non governmental organizations. Um, because the people 0:59:42.440 --> 0:59:44.440 being are being killed by one government or the other, 0:59:44.560 --> 0:59:46.960 right including like this is this was the same thing 0:59:47.080 --> 0:59:49.760 like in Iraq. The civilians who died in Mosel were 0:59:49.800 --> 0:59:54.600 technically under the Iraqi governments. You know, whatever. Protection seems 0:59:54.640 --> 0:59:56.600 like the wrong word to say, but I can tell 0:59:56.640 --> 0:59:59.919 you from my experience there, there was no We still 1:00:00.040 --> 1:00:02.560 do not have anything that approaches a credible civilian death 1:00:02.680 --> 1:00:05.720 count for for that conflict, um and probably never will 1:00:06.440 --> 1:00:09.680 right and and on that note, on the civilian casualties note, 1:00:10.520 --> 1:00:14.560 we were talking earlier about what how you can identify 1:00:14.640 --> 1:00:16.840 a credible ostan account versus a one that you probably 1:00:16.840 --> 1:00:18.920 shouldn't give too much credence to. And one of the 1:00:18.960 --> 1:00:22.240 best ways to do that, honestly is is, ah, look 1:00:22.280 --> 1:00:25.960 at their their morals. I guess if they're ever posting 1:00:26.080 --> 1:00:29.760 and celebrating the death of civilians anywhere, you should probably 1:00:29.880 --> 1:00:33.560 disregard them. Like, yeah, I'll never see Elliott Higgins being like, yeah, 1:00:33.680 --> 1:00:36.280 suck at people of belowgrad like you got hit with 1:00:36.320 --> 1:00:38.520 a missile, Like it's not it's you know, it's not 1:00:38.520 --> 1:00:41.200 gonna happen. Yeah, it's not. It's the same thing as like, 1:00:42.200 --> 1:00:48.320 I get why people celebrate h, you know, battlefield victories. Obviously, 1:00:48.400 --> 1:00:51.439 I don't think, especially if you're literally a Ukrainian living, 1:00:51.840 --> 1:00:53.919 you know, in the area affected, I don't think there's 1:00:53.920 --> 1:00:59.720 anything morally wrong with celebrating opposing soldiers being defeated. But 1:01:00.080 --> 1:01:03.600 I am I continue to be deeply unsettled by footage 1:01:03.920 --> 1:01:08.080 celebrating things like the destruction of armored personnel carriers full 1:01:08.120 --> 1:01:11.919 of nineteen year old kids, um, even though a non 1:01:12.160 --> 1:01:15.560 insignificant number of those nineteen year old kids are accessories 1:01:15.600 --> 1:01:18.600 to war crimes. Right, Like, it doesn't mean like I'm 1:01:18.840 --> 1:01:21.320 broadly okay with it. I do. I do feel a 1:01:21.360 --> 1:01:25.000 lot better about celebrating losses of special forces units like 1:01:25.040 --> 1:01:28.360 the vdv UM that have been heavily involved in war 1:01:28.480 --> 1:01:30.800 crimes around the world, like that I have less kind 1:01:30.840 --> 1:01:34.520 of an issue with. But and I felt that personally. 1:01:34.640 --> 1:01:37.840 You know, I'm Armenian and during the Carback War, it 1:01:37.960 --> 1:01:40.760 was just day, every day I would wake up to 1:01:41.320 --> 1:01:44.800 dozens of videos of Armenian conscripts and soldiers being blown 1:01:44.920 --> 1:01:47.920 up and hunted from the air, and people on Twitter 1:01:48.040 --> 1:01:50.360 cheering for it because they were, for one reason or another, 1:01:50.440 --> 1:01:52.840 on the ZERI side. And like, I get it, you know, 1:01:53.000 --> 1:01:55.320 like you were saying, you want to cheer your battlefield victories, 1:01:56.120 --> 1:01:59.120 and I understand that from people who live on the 1:01:59.160 --> 1:02:03.080 battlefield and live near the battlefield, I get it. It's 1:02:03.120 --> 1:02:06.640 happening to you, to people thousands of miles away cheerleading 1:02:06.680 --> 1:02:09.720 on the internet. What the hell is wrong with you? Yeah, 1:02:09.920 --> 1:02:12.320 maybe don't do that. Maybe don't do that, like you 1:02:12.680 --> 1:02:14.840 what the hell? Like you know, those are real people 1:02:15.120 --> 1:02:18.040 in that video that never did anything to you. And 1:02:18.160 --> 1:02:19.840 this is not like a sporting event where like they 1:02:19.880 --> 1:02:21.200 go home at the end of the day and they've 1:02:21.280 --> 1:02:24.080 just lost, like they're dead even when they do. Like, 1:02:24.240 --> 1:02:28.000 I've spent a huge amount of my career talking directly 1:02:28.120 --> 1:02:30.400 face to face with victims of ISIS, Right, I have 1:02:30.520 --> 1:02:34.640 been to like eight or nine refugee camps in two 1:02:34.920 --> 1:02:38.360 countries at this point, specifically for that were in addition 1:02:38.440 --> 1:02:41.760 to days spent on the refugee trail in between Hungary 1:02:41.800 --> 1:02:45.800 and Serbia talking to two Syrians and talking to um 1:02:46.240 --> 1:02:49.760 um people who had like fled the region. Uh. But 1:02:49.880 --> 1:02:53.040 at the same time, I can't help but like, like 1:02:53.160 --> 1:02:55.480 I've literally been under fire by ISIS and then had 1:02:55.520 --> 1:02:58.040 those ISIS guys gotten killed, and I have celebrated and 1:02:58.160 --> 1:03:01.200 cheered when that's happened. Um, And I'll never forget we 1:03:01.280 --> 1:03:03.400 were embedded with this mortar team and we were under 1:03:03.440 --> 1:03:06.920 fire from this sniper and the mortar team. I forget 1:03:07.000 --> 1:03:08.640 you can. In the article I wrote on it, I 1:03:08.760 --> 1:03:10.280 list the exact number of rounds fired, but it was 1:03:10.280 --> 1:03:12.840 like nine or ten something like that, where they're gradually 1:03:12.920 --> 1:03:16.400 walking in mortars until they get this guy um. And 1:03:16.800 --> 1:03:19.200 obviously we like cheered when they fucking killed this dude 1:03:19.240 --> 1:03:21.200 because he was shooting at us. And I remember, like 1:03:21.320 --> 1:03:24.080 kind of on our way out away from the front, 1:03:24.280 --> 1:03:28.520 my fixer Sangar was like, how many rounds did they 1:03:28.600 --> 1:03:30.080 drop before they got him? And I was like, I 1:03:30.080 --> 1:03:31.200 don't know. I think it was like nine or ten. 1:03:31.240 --> 1:03:32.960 I've got the footage somewhere, and he was like, I 1:03:33.040 --> 1:03:38.640 wonder what else they hit and and sang sangarsa Uhum 1:03:38.840 --> 1:03:41.200 like was born and raised in mosle Um, And it 1:03:41.320 --> 1:03:43.520 was one of those things we spent the very next day. 1:03:43.560 --> 1:03:46.480 We were like talking to people fleeing their homes and stuff. 1:03:46.560 --> 1:03:49.080 And not only did we we like see some of 1:03:49.160 --> 1:03:52.520 those people who lost family members too misses both by 1:03:52.720 --> 1:03:56.080 Iraqi forces and by coalition aircraft and stuff, but like 1:03:56.200 --> 1:03:58.880 we came upon this dead ices fighter in a fighting 1:03:58.920 --> 1:04:01.560 position where you could he he had been in there 1:04:01.640 --> 1:04:04.080 with his wife for days, and he had been wounded 1:04:04.120 --> 1:04:06.680 two or three days before he got killed, and you 1:04:06.720 --> 1:04:09.240 could see the evidence of the first aide she had 1:04:09.320 --> 1:04:10.720 done on him, and it was one of those things. 1:04:10.800 --> 1:04:12.760 I guess I could try to make the case that like, well, 1:04:12.800 --> 1:04:15.320 maybe she was a captive and didn't want to do it, 1:04:15.440 --> 1:04:18.120 but quite frankly, everything I saw in there makes me 1:04:18.240 --> 1:04:21.200 believe like she cared deeply for him and stayed with 1:04:21.320 --> 1:04:23.960 him until the bitter end, trying to keep him alive 1:04:24.040 --> 1:04:26.680 and fighting. Um. And that doesn't mean he's not like 1:04:26.800 --> 1:04:28.640 a monster, and it doesn't mean he shouldn't have been 1:04:28.760 --> 1:04:31.120 killed because he's a fucking dashi who was in the 1:04:31.200 --> 1:04:34.720 middle of doing enabling a series of terrible things. But 1:04:34.800 --> 1:04:38.280 he's also like, you can't you can't ignore the humanity 1:04:39.000 --> 1:04:42.280 of of somebody when you have seen that element of 1:04:42.400 --> 1:04:45.800 what what happens in the conflict, and that has stayed 1:04:45.880 --> 1:04:49.280 with me quite a bit ever since. Yeah, and it's 1:04:50.480 --> 1:04:53.920 it's one of those things. And you gotta you gotta 1:04:53.960 --> 1:04:57.479 remember that the majority of young men of fighting age 1:04:57.480 --> 1:05:01.000 around the world who joined a military or armed organization 1:05:01.120 --> 1:05:03.320 or an insurgent group, whatever it may be, they do 1:05:03.520 --> 1:05:06.160 so typically because it's whomever is in charge of the 1:05:06.240 --> 1:05:09.240 area they're growing up in. Right, You don't join the 1:05:09.320 --> 1:05:11.560 Russian Army because you wait all the options, and the 1:05:11.600 --> 1:05:14.040 Brazilian Army offer some good aid, you know, some good 1:05:14.240 --> 1:05:16.760 healthcare packages. And I looked at the Italian Army, but 1:05:16.800 --> 1:05:18.240 really I want to go with the Russian. No, you 1:05:18.320 --> 1:05:21.840 go with wherever you were born, yeah, whether, And you know, 1:05:21.920 --> 1:05:23.920 and I was talking to my roommate about this last night. 1:05:24.280 --> 1:05:26.760 We were watching this footage from the flood of nineties 1:05:27.040 --> 1:05:29.240 here in Oregon, you know, and it's this National Guard 1:05:29.280 --> 1:05:31.920 a helicopter where they're pushing bales of hay out of 1:05:31.920 --> 1:05:34.360 the back of the helicopter down to cows stranded out 1:05:34.360 --> 1:05:37.240 in your tillamook. And so depending on when you join 1:05:37.280 --> 1:05:39.800 the National Guard, you either fed cows hey from a 1:05:39.880 --> 1:05:44.640 helicopter or deployed to Irock. That's the luck of the draw, right, 1:05:44.920 --> 1:05:48.400 That's not fair. No, they don't deserve to die any 1:05:48.440 --> 1:05:49.840 more than the guys dropping the hay out of the 1:05:49.880 --> 1:05:55.200 helicopter did, right. But people get yeah, they get carried 1:05:55.240 --> 1:05:57.800 away with like turning it into a sport almost, and 1:05:57.880 --> 1:05:59.320 they forget that there's people on the other end, and 1:05:59.360 --> 1:06:02.040 that like, well, some of them are threats and they 1:06:02.080 --> 1:06:05.000 may need to be dealt with. It's like, you know, 1:06:05.880 --> 1:06:08.440 a bear comes at you in the woods. You shoot it, 1:06:08.560 --> 1:06:10.640 you don't, you don't skin it and make fun of it, 1:06:10.880 --> 1:06:15.560 like yeah, you know, I go kill its kids. You know, 1:06:15.720 --> 1:06:17.480 that's not that's not how it works, you know. So 1:06:17.760 --> 1:06:20.439 like yeah, yeah, don't don't be don't be a piece 1:06:20.480 --> 1:06:24.320 of ship, Like don't don't don't don't lose your humanity, um, 1:06:24.600 --> 1:06:26.760 because I mean, one of the things that makes it 1:06:26.840 --> 1:06:29.840 easy to lose your humanity is that like videos of 1:06:29.880 --> 1:06:32.960 ship getting blown up looks dope, right like it it does. 1:06:33.000 --> 1:06:35.000 It looks cool to watch things get blown up. That's 1:06:35.040 --> 1:06:37.440 in fact, I suspect how a lot of people who 1:06:37.560 --> 1:06:40.320 become very good oh since investigators part of what draws 1:06:40.360 --> 1:06:41.760 them in. It's just like I'm sure that was a 1:06:41.800 --> 1:06:44.680 part of why Caliber started obsessively researching guns. Is like 1:06:44.760 --> 1:06:47.760 their neat guns are neat. You know, weapons are interesting. 1:06:47.880 --> 1:06:52.320 People are inherently interested in in weaponry. Um, which is 1:06:53.320 --> 1:06:55.280 not a good thing. It's just the thing, you know. 1:06:55.400 --> 1:06:56.840 It's not a bad thing either. It's just like a 1:06:56.960 --> 1:07:00.120 thing human beings will always be interested in. But as 1:07:00.160 --> 1:07:04.800 warfare is as natural to us as eating and fucking. Um, well, 1:07:04.840 --> 1:07:07.160 you're talking about the mortars, right, the mortars walking in 1:07:07.240 --> 1:07:09.920 And there's this video on YouTube of made by an 1:07:09.920 --> 1:07:14.720 American Navy attack squadron of them dropping bomb after bomb 1:07:14.840 --> 1:07:18.160 on targets and muzzle and and and uh rocca places 1:07:18.200 --> 1:07:21.080 like that, and it's set to the Devil's going to 1:07:21.160 --> 1:07:23.200 cut you down, And every time there's a beat in 1:07:23.280 --> 1:07:25.600 the music, and you see a bomb drop, and some 1:07:25.680 --> 1:07:27.960 of these bombs it's like four bombs dropping at a time, 1:07:28.040 --> 1:07:30.560 dropping an eight story building. And so I'm sure there 1:07:30.640 --> 1:07:32.440 was a guy inside there with a weapon, but like 1:07:32.800 --> 1:07:34.680 you want to tell me there wasn't anybody else in 1:07:34.760 --> 1:07:37.880 that eighth story building, And like, okay, yeah, you're celebrating 1:07:37.880 --> 1:07:39.720 the death of the combatant there, but like also all 1:07:39.760 --> 1:07:42.760 those other people are being celebrated indirectly, and so like 1:07:43.080 --> 1:07:45.760 you gotta remember that, like these bombs explode and they 1:07:45.800 --> 1:07:47.800 take out a large area, and these fights are happening 1:07:47.840 --> 1:07:50.720 in cities a lot of the time. Yeah, the weaponry 1:07:50.840 --> 1:07:55.120 that the United States uses is more precise than something 1:07:55.200 --> 1:07:58.520 like a barrel bomb, but not by as midy orders 1:07:58.560 --> 1:08:02.600 of magnitude as you would hope. Um. And and precision 1:08:02.680 --> 1:08:07.920 doesn't precision matters, Yes, it's not a non important an 1:08:08.080 --> 1:08:11.160 important thing, but Ultimately, it doesn't matter if your missile 1:08:11.240 --> 1:08:13.600 went right into that living room full of civilians and 1:08:13.640 --> 1:08:15.680 blew them all up, or if you leveled the block 1:08:15.800 --> 1:08:18.840 and maybe you know, killed them indirectly. Like you gotta 1:08:18.880 --> 1:08:21.320 know what you're hitting. The target is what really matters, right, 1:08:21.600 --> 1:08:23.040 So it doesn't matter if you can hit the target, 1:08:23.040 --> 1:08:24.960 you gotta make sure it's the right target. And that's 1:08:25.040 --> 1:08:27.000 where we're starting to have issues now, is like we 1:08:27.080 --> 1:08:29.880 can hit targets really well, we just aren't always sure 1:08:29.920 --> 1:08:32.720 that it's the right yes, as opposed I mean, and 1:08:32.880 --> 1:08:35.560 and you are seeing. So let's let's talk about we 1:08:35.680 --> 1:08:40.320 we started this chatting about Ukrainian potential Ukrainian war crime. Um, 1:08:40.479 --> 1:08:44.120 what we have absolute documentation of a tremendous amount of 1:08:44.200 --> 1:08:48.120 war crimes on behalf of the Russian UH invaders, including 1:08:48.200 --> 1:08:50.680 a thing that they have done repeatedly in Syria, which 1:08:50.760 --> 1:08:55.040 is the targeting of hospitals and medical facilities, um with 1:08:55.320 --> 1:08:58.200 with terrible civilian casualties as a as a result. And 1:08:58.280 --> 1:09:00.719 this is something that the New York Times actually published 1:09:00.760 --> 1:09:03.639 an incredible article based on a mix of O cent 1:09:03.880 --> 1:09:06.479 and like I'm not entirely sure how they got them, 1:09:06.560 --> 1:09:10.040 but combat flight recorders, like the audio that these these 1:09:10.120 --> 1:09:13.360 Russian fighter pilots were sending back and forth to command 1:09:13.400 --> 1:09:16.639 as they attacked hospitals in Syria. Um, so we actually 1:09:16.640 --> 1:09:19.120 have a tremendous amount of detail about like what it 1:09:19.320 --> 1:09:22.599 looks like inside the cockpit and in like the control 1:09:22.680 --> 1:09:25.600 room and whatnot, as air strikes are being ordered on 1:09:25.760 --> 1:09:28.840 medical facilities. I really recommend people check that article out. 1:09:29.520 --> 1:09:33.120 Um it's it's pretty harrowing. Ship. But UM, yeah, are 1:09:33.160 --> 1:09:35.320 you are you surprised at all by kind of what 1:09:35.520 --> 1:09:37.800 you are what you've seen so far in behalf of 1:09:37.840 --> 1:09:40.760 the Russian forces in Ukraine. No, no, not even not 1:09:40.840 --> 1:09:43.760 even the slightest, Because I followed the war and in 1:09:44.000 --> 1:09:47.000 Syria rather closely. And uh, I mean there was a 1:09:47.040 --> 1:09:49.320 point when they had to stop marking the hospitals with 1:09:49.439 --> 1:09:52.520 hospital marketings because the Russians would target them so consistently. 1:09:52.880 --> 1:09:55.000 The United Nations had to stop giving the Russians the 1:09:55.080 --> 1:09:57.519 coordinates of the hospitals and in Aleppo because they kept 1:09:57.560 --> 1:10:02.040 getting targeted. Um. There was an AID convoy that was struck, 1:10:02.200 --> 1:10:05.200 I believe by Syrian aircraft, but it was the targeting 1:10:05.280 --> 1:10:07.720 was given to them by Russian aircraft. Um. It was 1:10:07.760 --> 1:10:10.040 just an AID convoy coming into Aleppo, a United Nations 1:10:10.080 --> 1:10:12.760 and Aid convoy, and it was bombed and strafe repeatedly 1:10:12.880 --> 1:10:16.160 for you know, several hours. Um. Things like that that 1:10:16.320 --> 1:10:20.240 happened so regularly in Syria to the relative silence of 1:10:20.320 --> 1:10:23.400 the rest of the world. Um, that led me to 1:10:23.439 --> 1:10:25.760 believe that when they go into Ukraine, they're not going 1:10:25.800 --> 1:10:29.400 to be any gentler. Um. A lot of people suspected 1:10:29.439 --> 1:10:33.160 early on that, like, well, they it's harder to demonize 1:10:33.160 --> 1:10:34.960 people who look like you, so they're not going to 1:10:36.040 --> 1:10:39.200 have as much of an easy time demonizing Ukrainians. And 1:10:39.560 --> 1:10:42.320 I think there has been some degree of difficulty with that, 1:10:42.760 --> 1:10:44.439 at least in terms of some of the conscripts on 1:10:44.439 --> 1:10:46.920 the Russian side. But the other thing we're seeing is that, 1:10:47.000 --> 1:10:49.360 like a lot of these a lot of people seem 1:10:49.439 --> 1:10:53.800 to genuinely believe the mission of denazifying Ukraine. And so 1:10:54.360 --> 1:10:59.439 if that's what you believe you're doing, then the bombing 1:10:59.760 --> 1:11:02.439 does surprised, It doesn't become a surprise. Right. If you 1:11:02.560 --> 1:11:04.920 think that you're going into Ukraine to suppress it and 1:11:05.000 --> 1:11:07.879 occupy it, then bombing city city is full of Russians, 1:11:07.960 --> 1:11:10.920 Russians and Russian speakers seems like a bad idea, but 1:11:11.040 --> 1:11:14.479 if you believe that they're all Nazis, then it makes 1:11:14.960 --> 1:11:17.240 sense that you might just blow them up because they're 1:11:17.240 --> 1:11:19.080 all the enemy. I'm not saying I'm not condoning it. 1:11:19.160 --> 1:11:20.920 I'm saying no, But I mean that is literally what 1:11:21.040 --> 1:11:23.719 the US government in the British government did in World 1:11:23.760 --> 1:11:29.320 War you know exactly. There have been claims made that 1:11:30.120 --> 1:11:33.439 what Russia is doing in places like mary A Pole 1:11:34.280 --> 1:11:37.759 amounts to an active genocide. Um, what is your opinion 1:11:37.800 --> 1:11:45.760 on that? Genocide is a big word. It's yeah, but 1:11:45.960 --> 1:11:47.400 you know, it has a lot of meaning behind it, 1:11:47.439 --> 1:11:50.160 in the sense that like, just because somebody is killing 1:11:50.240 --> 1:11:52.479 large numbers of people and doing so in heinous ways 1:11:52.560 --> 1:11:54.760 does not make it a genocide. You have to an 1:11:54.760 --> 1:11:57.720 attempt to destroy culture and destroy heritage and things of 1:11:57.800 --> 1:12:01.680 that nature. Um, as it stands, I would say that 1:12:01.800 --> 1:12:05.800 it looks likely that there are signs of potential genocide 1:12:06.360 --> 1:12:08.599 in Mariable. I am not confident enough to come out 1:12:08.600 --> 1:12:11.840 and say that I conclusively think it's happening, but the 1:12:11.920 --> 1:12:14.320 way that it looks like the the city is being 1:12:14.439 --> 1:12:18.719 deliberately targeted to either force the entire population to flee 1:12:19.240 --> 1:12:22.680 or to radicalize them one way or the other. Is 1:12:23.520 --> 1:12:27.760 it goes beyond military target you know. I think the 1:12:27.880 --> 1:12:32.120 thing that were that I that is the most like 1:12:32.560 --> 1:12:36.800 troubling potential sign of an intention of genocide is the 1:12:37.000 --> 1:12:40.960 reports that the Russian government has been evacuating civilians that 1:12:41.040 --> 1:12:43.400 they have in parts of Mariopole. They have captured two 1:12:43.640 --> 1:12:47.000 places in Russia, which is this is a misconception. You 1:12:47.040 --> 1:12:49.280 don't have to just be killing people, as you stated, 1:12:49.280 --> 1:12:51.519 it's an attempt to destroy a culture, which you can 1:12:51.600 --> 1:12:53.479 do by killing, but you can also do by things 1:12:53.600 --> 1:12:58.479 like separating moving people, like forced migration and whatnot. Like 1:12:58.680 --> 1:13:00.840 there's aspects of that at again, look at like the 1:13:00.920 --> 1:13:03.240 genocide of the Native Americans in the United States. It 1:13:03.320 --> 1:13:05.320 was not all straight up killing. A lot of it 1:13:05.479 --> 1:13:09.000 was forced migration, um, which is an act of genocide 1:13:09.040 --> 1:13:11.360 as well. Um. And that's the kind of thing where 1:13:11.400 --> 1:13:14.080 I'm I'm kind of waiting for more reporting on that 1:13:14.800 --> 1:13:17.320 to the to see here exactly what's happening in the 1:13:17.360 --> 1:13:19.439 extent to what's happening, But that really troubles me in 1:13:19.600 --> 1:13:22.800 terms of potential signs of a genocide. Yeah, and when 1:13:22.840 --> 1:13:25.439 they when they coined the term genocide after World War Two. 1:13:26.080 --> 1:13:29.240 It was it was with reference to the Holocaust, but 1:13:29.720 --> 1:13:32.920 but what they had in mind was the Armenian genocide. Yeah, 1:13:33.920 --> 1:13:36.800 when it when they when they drafted these words, and 1:13:37.720 --> 1:13:40.160 because it was beyond just sheer number of people killed, 1:13:40.160 --> 1:13:42.919 if we're talking sheer number of people killed, the Nazis 1:13:43.000 --> 1:13:46.519 also killed six million other people in addition to the 1:13:46.560 --> 1:13:48.960 six million Jews they killed. The reason we talked about 1:13:49.000 --> 1:13:51.880 the Jews is one, six million is a lot of people. 1:13:52.200 --> 1:13:54.960 And two it was a deliberate attempt to destroy their 1:13:55.120 --> 1:13:59.720 entire culture. You make them have never existed, and that's 1:13:59.840 --> 1:14:03.000 very different and very scary. Dying is also very bad, 1:14:03.680 --> 1:14:05.599 the idea of dying and then all of the people 1:14:05.640 --> 1:14:07.880 who were like you just don't exist anymore, and all 1:14:07.920 --> 1:14:12.760 your books and your literature are gone. Like that's that's monstrous. Yeah, 1:14:13.080 --> 1:14:16.639 And that's why there's a difference between genocide and mass killing. Yeah, 1:14:16.760 --> 1:14:19.080 And it's it's the difference. Like we talked about US 1:14:19.120 --> 1:14:21.160 war crimes in World War Two, of which there were many, 1:14:21.200 --> 1:14:24.160 including the fire bombing of Dresden. I would argue, but 1:14:24.280 --> 1:14:26.760 it's not an act of genocide because when they fire 1:14:26.840 --> 1:14:31.200 bombed Dresden. It was certainly um the killing of civilians 1:14:31.280 --> 1:14:35.200 without particular regard to the direct military efficacy of the action, 1:14:35.280 --> 1:14:37.799 But it was not an attempt to destroy German culture 1:14:37.920 --> 1:14:41.360 or obliterate the German people. And you brought up the 1:14:41.479 --> 1:14:44.080 Armenian genocide. Well, we'll talk about this at some point 1:14:44.240 --> 1:14:47.040 behind the bastards, but you mentioned that that was kind 1:14:47.080 --> 1:14:50.799 of what the people when the term genocide was invented, 1:14:51.439 --> 1:14:53.880 that was what people were looking at, even though it 1:14:53.960 --> 1:14:55.720 was kind of a direct response to the Holocaust. It's 1:14:55.720 --> 1:14:59.520 also worth noting that like when the Nazis planned the Holocaust, 1:14:59.640 --> 1:15:03.160 they to the Armenian genocide as a model. Um Hitler's 1:15:03.240 --> 1:15:06.479 literal statement was when people when he was asked during 1:15:06.560 --> 1:15:08.720 like one of his his dinners with a bunch of 1:15:08.920 --> 1:15:13.200 Nazi officials, like what what about kind of the international 1:15:13.320 --> 1:15:15.880 reaction to what we're planning to do? He was like, well, 1:15:15.880 --> 1:15:18.560 who remembers the Armenians? You know? Like that was his 1:15:18.760 --> 1:15:20.240 That was his attitude, is like, we'll get away with 1:15:20.320 --> 1:15:23.439 it because nobody did anything during this genocide, right and 1:15:23.600 --> 1:15:27.160 and and I think while I would hesitate to call 1:15:27.320 --> 1:15:31.200 the entire war in Ukraine and genocide. Yes, as of yet. 1:15:31.680 --> 1:15:33.840 I would say that there's a similarity between the Armenian 1:15:33.920 --> 1:15:38.120 genocide and and how that led to the Holocaust. There's 1:15:38.120 --> 1:15:40.799 a similarity between the Russian war crimes committed in Syria 1:15:41.120 --> 1:15:43.559 and how that led to the war crimes being committed 1:15:43.600 --> 1:15:45.800 in Ukraine, in the sense that if the world had 1:15:45.800 --> 1:15:49.800 stood up earlier, we would not be seeing this now. Yeah. 1:15:50.800 --> 1:15:53.439 The problem is the world looked the other way when 1:15:53.479 --> 1:15:57.919 the Russians bombed hospitals in Syria, when they repeatedly bombed hospitals. 1:15:57.960 --> 1:16:01.320 In fact, the world didn't just look away. A lot 1:16:01.400 --> 1:16:04.320 of people in the West mocked it. I'm sure you've 1:16:04.360 --> 1:16:06.200 heard it as often as I have. The last Hospital 1:16:06.280 --> 1:16:09.080 and Aleppo joke, right where, oh they're bombing the lost 1:16:09.200 --> 1:16:11.880 last hospital and Aleppo again. Well, the reason that happened 1:16:11.960 --> 1:16:13.720 is because when you bomb the hospital, they build a 1:16:13.760 --> 1:16:16.200 new one, and then it gets bombed again three days later, 1:16:16.280 --> 1:16:18.479 so they've bombed the last one again. So it wasn't 1:16:18.479 --> 1:16:20.519 a joke. It was just a tragedy that kept playing 1:16:20.520 --> 1:16:23.920 out that people couldn't really fathom, so they mocked, right. 1:16:24.000 --> 1:16:25.960 And so when that's the attitude of a lot of 1:16:26.000 --> 1:16:28.400 the world, it's no surprise that what's what's happened in 1:16:28.520 --> 1:16:32.400 Ukraine as has run out of control? M hm, Where 1:16:32.400 --> 1:16:34.040 do you think we go from here? What are you 1:16:34.080 --> 1:16:36.840 what are you expecting to kind of see next within 1:16:36.960 --> 1:16:39.759 this conflict? You know, the most recent kind of reporting 1:16:39.840 --> 1:16:42.599 is that Russia's pulling. Russia's framing it is they're pulling 1:16:42.680 --> 1:16:46.080 back from Kiev to to focus on other fronts. Uh. 1:16:46.200 --> 1:16:48.679 The Ukrainian side is saying like, well, they've been defeated 1:16:48.760 --> 1:16:50.639 around Kiev and they're pulling back. What do you think 1:16:50.680 --> 1:16:53.040 kind of we're seeing next? What is your opinion on 1:16:53.160 --> 1:16:55.760 kind of the next stages here? So I think it 1:16:55.840 --> 1:17:00.160 really depends on Vladimir Prutin's power and how long he 1:17:00.280 --> 1:17:03.800 remains in a position of unchecked power. I'm not saying 1:17:04.040 --> 1:17:06.960 necessarily he will fall from power. I'm saying that how 1:17:07.040 --> 1:17:09.679 long can he go as the only guy calling the shots? 1:17:09.760 --> 1:17:12.920 Because as it stands right now, it doesn't look like 1:17:13.280 --> 1:17:15.320 he's the same Vladimir Putin that we were used to 1:17:15.400 --> 1:17:17.640 dealing with. It seems like something may have changed with him. 1:17:18.320 --> 1:17:22.599 And that's a wild card because if if Vladimir Putin 1:17:22.680 --> 1:17:24.760 wants to continue to escalate here he can continue to 1:17:24.800 --> 1:17:27.040 do so because he may not be getting the same 1:17:27.080 --> 1:17:29.200 reporting that we are about the condition of his army. 1:17:29.720 --> 1:17:31.519 He may think his army is doing better than they're 1:17:31.560 --> 1:17:34.160 doing and that they actually are just repositioning. So if 1:17:34.240 --> 1:17:36.439 that's the case, there's a chance to he'll escalate against 1:17:36.680 --> 1:17:40.240 potentially in NATO country. I find that unlikely, but there's 1:17:40.240 --> 1:17:42.360 still a chance for it. I think what's more likely 1:17:42.479 --> 1:17:44.880 is that we're going to see the Russian military refocused 1:17:45.000 --> 1:17:48.599 efforts in the east, in in Donetskan Luhansk, with an 1:17:48.600 --> 1:17:50.960 attempts to create a land bridge to Crimea through the 1:17:51.000 --> 1:17:55.120 area through Mariopol Melitopa area UM and I think they're 1:17:55.120 --> 1:17:56.760 going to try to rucify the area as much as 1:17:56.840 --> 1:17:59.920 possible and remove as many of the Ukrainians as possible 1:18:00.520 --> 1:18:03.120 UM one way or the other. And I don't know 1:18:03.160 --> 1:18:05.400 if they'll be successful in that, but I think simultaneously 1:18:05.400 --> 1:18:06.720 while they do that, they're going to try to tie 1:18:06.800 --> 1:18:09.080 down and destroy as much of the Ukrainian military as 1:18:09.120 --> 1:18:12.160 possible UM, which will be difficult because the units in 1:18:12.200 --> 1:18:16.000 the east are Ukraine's best equip units. So I don't 1:18:16.080 --> 1:18:18.720 know how this ends. I don't see a reasonable end 1:18:18.760 --> 1:18:21.840 to this insight, but that's just because there's too many 1:18:21.880 --> 1:18:24.960 variables at the moment. I do think one thing that's 1:18:25.000 --> 1:18:28.440 kind of worth looking at this war in a historical context. 1:18:29.479 --> 1:18:31.519 A number of comparisons have been made to both of 1:18:31.560 --> 1:18:34.439 the world wars here, um, I think the thing that 1:18:34.600 --> 1:18:37.320 it most reminds me of is World War One, not 1:18:37.880 --> 1:18:40.720 in that it's a conflagration on that scale or in 1:18:40.840 --> 1:18:43.519 that um it's a similar war in terms of the combat, 1:18:44.040 --> 1:18:47.160 but it is an example of the first big war 1:18:47.600 --> 1:18:50.360 that utilizes a variety of weapons and tactics that have 1:18:50.520 --> 1:18:54.960 been battlefield tested in a series of smaller wars, right, um, 1:18:55.280 --> 1:18:58.040 And I think we are seeing in Ukraine for the 1:18:58.120 --> 1:19:01.920 first time the actual will. I think one thing that 1:19:02.000 --> 1:19:04.280 we have seen is that drones. And I'm not talking 1:19:04.320 --> 1:19:06.000 about the big ones here. You know, they get a 1:19:06.000 --> 1:19:07.599 lot of the bay rock tar and stuff like get 1:19:07.680 --> 1:19:11.040 that gets a lot of attention, but like small the 1:19:11.200 --> 1:19:13.559 kind of drones anyone listening to this could pick up 1:19:13.600 --> 1:19:17.479 and buy today, right, Those drones, I think are proving 1:19:17.560 --> 1:19:20.600 to be a game changer on a tactical level, in 1:19:20.680 --> 1:19:23.479 a similar manner to the machine gun in in the 1:19:23.560 --> 1:19:27.000 turn of the last century. Before the last century. Yeah, 1:19:27.080 --> 1:19:30.960 with the drones, I've often machine guns are good good comparison. 1:19:31.040 --> 1:19:33.680 I've often thought of it as like the airplane, and 1:19:33.800 --> 1:19:36.160 that we had airplanes and we haven't had combat airplanes. 1:19:36.240 --> 1:19:38.120 Before World War One, we didn't have very many of 1:19:38.200 --> 1:19:40.519 them because nobody really realized the utility of them in war. 1:19:41.040 --> 1:19:43.040 And then as the war got closer and then the 1:19:43.080 --> 1:19:45.880 war started, countries started to slowly build up these small 1:19:45.920 --> 1:19:47.920 fleets of aircraft, and then by the end of the war, 1:19:48.800 --> 1:19:50.760 everybody had an air force. I think we see the 1:19:50.760 --> 1:19:52.800 same thing with these small consumer drones, is that like, 1:19:53.280 --> 1:19:56.360 by the end of this war or whatever conflagrations are 1:19:56.400 --> 1:19:59.360 coming after it, every military in the world is going 1:19:59.400 --> 1:20:02.800 to have little little you know, phantom phantom threes or whatever, 1:20:02.920 --> 1:20:06.320 basically for every infantry squad. One of the things that's 1:20:06.320 --> 1:20:09.840 so wild is that if if you again, if you're 1:20:09.840 --> 1:20:13.599 sitting here right now, have not an insignificant amount of money, 1:20:13.640 --> 1:20:17.360 let's say three to four thousand dollars and the enough 1:20:17.560 --> 1:20:23.080 mechanical like competence to carry out modest repairs on your 1:20:23.120 --> 1:20:28.120 own car, you could, with things entirely available over the shelf, 1:20:28.600 --> 1:20:32.120 build a weapon system capable of disabling a variety of 1:20:32.240 --> 1:20:35.360 armored vehicles at night. You know, like you that that 1:20:35.520 --> 1:20:38.280 is a thing that individual people, You could do that 1:20:38.439 --> 1:20:39.760 and you can have it up and running in a 1:20:39.840 --> 1:20:43.719 matter of days. I just I'm imagining the next protest 1:20:43.840 --> 1:20:48.720 in unnamed city. Yeah, and a consumer drone flies over 1:20:48.800 --> 1:20:50.640 the police line and drops a little thing on him. 1:20:50.640 --> 1:20:55.760 This is bang. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like there's a 1:20:55.840 --> 1:20:59.799 lot of people, even even as as influential and meaningful 1:20:59.840 --> 1:21:01.720 as they've been on the battlefield in Ukraine, I think 1:21:01.720 --> 1:21:04.320 people still are kind of slow to understand the extent. 1:21:04.439 --> 1:21:06.439 Like there's one of the wildest stories that's come out 1:21:06.479 --> 1:21:09.439 of it is that the Ukrainian military has a an 1:21:09.520 --> 1:21:14.800 outfit of civilian drone operators using hacked and home built 1:21:14.920 --> 1:21:18.800 drones to attack Russian forces at night. UM and they 1:21:18.880 --> 1:21:22.000 have been The documented of efficacy of their raids has 1:21:22.040 --> 1:21:24.840 been significant, And I can I can remember spending a 1:21:24.880 --> 1:21:27.920 brief period of time with an Iraqi military unit that 1:21:28.080 --> 1:21:30.120 was just using d g I phantoms that they had 1:21:30.200 --> 1:21:33.840 rigged to drop what were since essentially mortar shells with 1:21:33.880 --> 1:21:36.599 shuttlecocks on them from a height. UM, and they were 1:21:36.760 --> 1:21:39.479 very effective at killing people. UM. As isis, drones were 1:21:39.520 --> 1:21:42.920 effective at sort of spotting, you know, mortars for folks well. 1:21:42.920 --> 1:21:44.400 And one of the things I saw I SIS used 1:21:44.400 --> 1:21:47.760 their more their drones for great effect wasn't so much 1:21:47.960 --> 1:21:50.680 to kill large numbers of enemy soldiers. It was to 1:21:50.760 --> 1:21:53.360 do the same thing that American predator drones and report 1:21:53.439 --> 1:21:56.160 drones had done for for decades by that point the 1:21:56.320 --> 1:21:58.439 terror groups, which is let them know you can't gather 1:21:58.560 --> 1:22:01.240 in large numbers. Yeah, if you gather in large numbers 1:22:01.240 --> 1:22:03.040 of your target. And so you saw a Rocky soldier 1:22:03.120 --> 1:22:04.800 saying no more than two or three in a group, ye, 1:22:05.080 --> 1:22:06.720 any more than that will get targeted, you know, And 1:22:06.880 --> 1:22:10.120 so they flipped the equation basically yep, and don't I 1:22:10.200 --> 1:22:13.560 mean I one of the reasons why I I have 1:22:13.720 --> 1:22:16.799 a general policy heavily informed by my time in Mozle 1:22:16.920 --> 1:22:20.080 that the last place I want to be in a 1:22:20.439 --> 1:22:24.040 anywhere near a war zone is an armored vehicle. Um. 1:22:24.479 --> 1:22:28.240 Because that's really unless you are in something that's heavily 1:22:28.320 --> 1:22:32.000 up armored, like an im wrap. Little bombs dropped by 1:22:32.080 --> 1:22:34.559 drones can do significant damage to something like a humpy 1:22:34.720 --> 1:22:36.960 and that's exactly what you target. You don't target a 1:22:37.040 --> 1:22:40.240 Toyota Corolla with a drone like that, unless you specifically 1:22:40.320 --> 1:22:42.639 know an individuals in that Corolla that you want to kill. 1:22:43.280 --> 1:22:46.240 But you may just behind the lines see a target 1:22:46.280 --> 1:22:49.240 of opportunity in an armor see an armored lightly armored vehicle, 1:22:49.320 --> 1:22:52.200 and drop a immunition on it. And that's one of 1:22:52.240 --> 1:22:54.519 the things this is done. There's a lot of talk 1:22:54.640 --> 1:22:57.920 prior to the expanded Russian invasion about how immediately Russia 1:22:58.000 --> 1:23:00.040 was going to get air superiority, and that's obviously a 1:23:00.120 --> 1:23:03.000 bigger story than just drones. There's a lot of factors 1:23:03.080 --> 1:23:06.360 and why Russia. It's probably accurate to say they have 1:23:06.479 --> 1:23:09.040 superiority in a number of parts of the war, but 1:23:09.120 --> 1:23:11.320 they don't have supremacy like that. It's not like an 1:23:11.320 --> 1:23:14.559 absolute matter. And part of that is because, um, it's 1:23:14.600 --> 1:23:18.320 not really possible to at this moment. Someday, I suspect 1:23:18.360 --> 1:23:21.040 there will be more effective ways of stopping drones and 1:23:21.840 --> 1:23:25.519 at like a theater level. Um, maybe, but it certainly 1:23:25.560 --> 1:23:29.040 hasn't happened yet. Yeah. Yeah, And and that's the thing. 1:23:29.120 --> 1:23:31.040 You know, there's there's the drones, and then there's also 1:23:31.479 --> 1:23:34.000 on the Ukrainian side, they you know, I think they 1:23:34.120 --> 1:23:37.920 recognize that air force against air force, the Russians have 1:23:37.960 --> 1:23:41.680 a numerical superiority. So you can deny the Russians air 1:23:41.760 --> 1:23:45.439 supremacy by shooting down their planes with man pads. You 1:23:45.520 --> 1:23:47.559 don't have to have an air force to deny your opponent. 1:23:48.600 --> 1:23:50.400 You just have to dine them the ability to freely 1:23:50.439 --> 1:23:53.320 operate in your airspace. And this is one of those things. 1:23:53.400 --> 1:23:55.880 There's been a lot of talk about a no fly zone, um, 1:23:56.080 --> 1:23:58.120 which I tend to think would be a bad idea 1:23:58.200 --> 1:24:00.360 in the traditional sense in terms of like the US 1:24:00.880 --> 1:24:03.920 and NATO sending in planes to down Russian planes over Ukraine. 1:24:03.920 --> 1:24:06.439 There's a number of reasons why that's concerning. But you 1:24:06.560 --> 1:24:09.360 can effectively establish a no fly zone by shipping in 1:24:09.400 --> 1:24:13.800 a funckload of man pads exactly. Yeah, And I'm not 1:24:13.920 --> 1:24:16.200 against that. I think in terms of what kind of 1:24:16.640 --> 1:24:20.719 what kind of armed arms support is ethical to provide, 1:24:21.360 --> 1:24:25.320 giving people the ability to stop planes from bombing cities 1:24:25.600 --> 1:24:28.120 is broadly speaking, one of the most ethical things you 1:24:28.200 --> 1:24:31.559 can do in terms of shipping munitions around the world, right, 1:24:31.640 --> 1:24:34.360 and the other advantages that man pads. I'm sure somebody 1:24:34.400 --> 1:24:37.960 could turn it into a lethal ground weapon, but they're 1:24:38.000 --> 1:24:42.559 pretty hard to yeah, use against ground targets, against houses, 1:24:42.600 --> 1:24:45.560 things like that, not really what they're designed for. So 1:24:46.400 --> 1:24:51.560 it's not like just handing over, you know, some indiscriminate 1:24:51.600 --> 1:24:54.200 weapon to the Ukrainians to use against Russian cities. You're 1:24:54.280 --> 1:24:57.719 you're giving them a weapon that's specifically used against military aircraft. 1:24:57.920 --> 1:25:00.520 Like most man pads can't reach the altitude the airliners 1:25:00.520 --> 1:25:04.400 are out even so yep, so I think that's probably 1:25:04.520 --> 1:25:07.080 what we want to talk about today. Um, you wanna 1:25:07.600 --> 1:25:09.639 plug your plug ables, tell people where they can find 1:25:09.680 --> 1:25:13.120 you in your analysis out in the wild. Yeah, so 1:25:13.479 --> 1:25:15.759 you can. You can follow me on Twitter. My handle 1:25:15.880 --> 1:25:20.240 is at Shabanian Rum and uh I work I published 1:25:20.240 --> 1:25:23.000 occasionally with the New Lines Institute. Uh so you can 1:25:23.040 --> 1:25:24.880 see my work there as well. And I have a 1:25:24.960 --> 1:25:27.920 website that I seldom update, the Folded Gap dot com 1:25:28.479 --> 1:25:31.800 um hasn't been updated and probably eight months now because 1:25:31.880 --> 1:25:35.360 I've been tired. But um, yeah, those are the places 1:25:35.400 --> 1:25:38.200 to find me and uh d m s are open 1:25:38.240 --> 1:25:40.000 on Twitter. So if you ever have questions or anything 1:25:40.040 --> 1:25:41.840 like that, let me know. I'm happy to talk with 1:25:41.840 --> 1:25:44.439 anybody who's got questions on these kind of things. Hell yeah, 1:25:44.840 --> 1:25:50.120 well that's gonna be us. So you know, enjoy this 1:25:50.520 --> 1:25:54.320 analysis of the of the war in Ukraine. Um, before 1:25:54.400 --> 1:25:57.320 we return you to your regularly scheduled multi part series 1:25:57.400 --> 1:26:00.439 on Nazi cat girls. Uh. The primary focus of this 1:26:00.560 --> 1:26:21.760 podcast money money. This is welcome, Dick had happen here? 1:26:22.000 --> 1:26:24.439 It is me, Christopher Long. Uh, this is a This 1:26:24.560 --> 1:26:27.360 is a podcast about things falling apart, things putting back 1:26:27.360 --> 1:26:29.760 together again. And also today it's just about money. Um. 1:26:30.680 --> 1:26:32.639 And also well, okay, it is not just about money. 1:26:32.680 --> 1:26:37.799 It is about money and is about seemingly seemingly esoteric 1:26:38.479 --> 1:26:41.400 arguments about the nature of money that actually turned out 1:26:41.439 --> 1:26:44.040 to be extremely important for any post revolutionary society or 1:26:44.040 --> 1:26:48.200 even just this society. So yeah, and and joining joining 1:26:48.240 --> 1:26:50.559 me to talk about this are Kyle Flannery and Steve 1:26:50.680 --> 1:26:53.280 manned where the co editors of Strange Matters magazine, which 1:26:53.320 --> 1:26:55.479 is a new workers co op that's in the middle 1:26:55.479 --> 1:26:58.479 of a fundraising drive. So yeah, go Stworth the magazine. 1:26:58.600 --> 1:27:01.880 And uh, even Kyle, welcome to the show. It's great 1:27:01.880 --> 1:27:04.719 to be here, Chris, thanks for having us. The basis 1:27:04.760 --> 1:27:07.320 of this interview is a piece that is coming out, 1:27:07.439 --> 1:27:09.720 actually when is it coming out that that's a good 1:27:09.800 --> 1:27:12.800 question that I should probably have asked of this. Um, 1:27:13.160 --> 1:27:16.559 let's see, it will come out later this month. Okay, Yeah, 1:27:16.720 --> 1:27:19.200 there'll be out later this month. That is about the 1:27:19.320 --> 1:27:22.360 history of money and what money is. So I guess 1:27:22.400 --> 1:27:25.840 we can we can start there, which is, yeah, can 1:27:25.920 --> 1:27:29.759 can you walk us through a bit about the debate 1:27:29.880 --> 1:27:33.360 over what money is and how sort of various people 1:27:33.439 --> 1:27:36.479 have gotten parts of it wrong and parts of it right. Sure. 1:27:36.920 --> 1:27:41.799 I got into this debate as a economics graduate student 1:27:41.960 --> 1:27:45.920 in eleven and a book that really kind of shaped 1:27:46.160 --> 1:27:49.320 my initial understanding was David Graeber's Depth the First five 1:27:49.400 --> 1:27:55.479 Thousand Years and yeah, it's excellent. Um it's it's very long, 1:27:55.560 --> 1:27:58.760 and it's a bit scattered, but I love what he 1:27:58.840 --> 1:28:01.920 put together with it. And um, so he kind of 1:28:01.960 --> 1:28:07.320 introduced me to ideas of from a school of economic 1:28:07.439 --> 1:28:10.640 thought called chartile is UM and chartial is M is 1:28:10.760 --> 1:28:14.960 kind of the theoretical forbear of M M T and 1:28:15.280 --> 1:28:19.160 m M T is, which is modern monetary theory is 1:28:19.240 --> 1:28:21.920 kind of in the news now as a theory which 1:28:22.000 --> 1:28:25.360 is saying, like, okay, if you if you're a government 1:28:25.840 --> 1:28:29.880 that issues its own money, its own currency, that is 1:28:29.960 --> 1:28:32.439 not really backed by anything. It's not backed by any 1:28:32.520 --> 1:28:37.080 other currency or any other commodity. Then you don't really 1:28:37.400 --> 1:28:40.240 face a financial limit as far as how much you 1:28:40.320 --> 1:28:42.920 can produce. You you're the sole source of that money, 1:28:43.520 --> 1:28:47.120 and you can spend it into existence, spend by buying 1:28:47.240 --> 1:28:51.680 things the money into existence, and people will accept it 1:28:51.760 --> 1:28:54.240 to the extent that they either need it or they 1:28:54.320 --> 1:28:58.640 want it. And that's one theory that's kind of in 1:28:58.680 --> 1:29:02.120 the air now. But chartali is Um, over a hundred 1:29:02.200 --> 1:29:06.559 years before this, is putting out very similar ideas around 1:29:06.760 --> 1:29:10.120 money that is um created by states in order to 1:29:10.400 --> 1:29:15.080 martial physical resources. They call it biophysical resources, which is 1:29:15.200 --> 1:29:22.599 just a fancy word of meaning all of the material, people, techniques, um, 1:29:22.840 --> 1:29:28.320 physical processes that are required to create economic activity. So 1:29:29.040 --> 1:29:31.120 to the extent that people either need or want your 1:29:31.160 --> 1:29:34.600 money UM, you can use it as a social technology 1:29:34.720 --> 1:29:38.560 sort of to marshal those resources into action, and you 1:29:38.720 --> 1:29:43.240 being a state, chartali is Um says, so from Chartalism 1:29:43.280 --> 1:29:45.800 we got m MT. But David Graverer's book is about 1:29:45.800 --> 1:29:48.680 a lot more than just Churtleism and MT, So it's 1:29:48.680 --> 1:29:52.320 about the origins of money, and origins of money, it 1:29:52.439 --> 1:29:55.640 turns out, are at least five thousand years ago. As 1:29:55.680 --> 1:30:00.960 the title says, UM, there are examples of UM early 1:30:01.040 --> 1:30:07.240 accounting systems that are where people are just UM. Rather 1:30:07.320 --> 1:30:10.240 than there being a circulating medium of exchange type money 1:30:10.400 --> 1:30:13.519 like a coin or something or a daughter bill, there 1:30:13.560 --> 1:30:16.280 were just records of what people own and what people 1:30:16.360 --> 1:30:20.600 owe and their debts and credits against each other. And 1:30:21.760 --> 1:30:26.840 it was in early Mesopotamia there. So we have these 1:30:26.880 --> 1:30:32.040 early accounting systems that yield more advanced credit systems over time, 1:30:32.360 --> 1:30:36.000 that are ruled by temples UM, which are sort of 1:30:36.040 --> 1:30:38.519 proto states in a way in terms of like they 1:30:38.600 --> 1:30:42.919 administer the flow of goods and services through their territory 1:30:43.120 --> 1:30:48.080 and between their territory and another temple's territory using their 1:30:48.160 --> 1:30:53.440 domestic money, but also international money. International money was facilitated 1:30:53.520 --> 1:30:58.320 through trade networks. Trade networks use things like UM. They 1:30:58.400 --> 1:31:01.639 needed to convert between a domestic money and international money. 1:31:02.920 --> 1:31:06.639 And Gregory goes through these like wonderful examples of UM, 1:31:06.840 --> 1:31:11.040 silver and other medals being used as like international means 1:31:11.080 --> 1:31:16.000 of payment. UM. That's sort of our term in our 1:31:16.080 --> 1:31:20.160 piece basically, which is covering them foreign exchange. But UM. 1:31:21.160 --> 1:31:23.320 He says, like in order to get from the domestic 1:31:23.400 --> 1:31:26.479 money into the international money. UM. You need to have 1:31:26.800 --> 1:31:31.760 these linkages of experts in the temple and the trade 1:31:31.840 --> 1:31:36.800 networks to get together and make um credit instruments which 1:31:36.920 --> 1:31:41.479 knit them together into this trade network. And from there 1:31:41.760 --> 1:31:44.599 we go into UM. I don't want to spend too 1:31:44.680 --> 1:31:47.000 much time on the history, but we go from there 1:31:47.120 --> 1:31:54.439 to situations thousands of years later, we get coins. Coins 1:31:54.720 --> 1:32:02.080 are being minted by starting in the fulle six hundred BC. 1:32:02.720 --> 1:32:08.040 I want to say, Carl, yeah, that that sounds about right. 1:32:08.160 --> 1:32:12.120 So um the first I someone can correct me if 1:32:12.160 --> 1:32:14.640 I'm wrong. But I've been doing some homework on this 1:32:14.800 --> 1:32:16.840 because I've been on a few podcasts and there's like 1:32:17.040 --> 1:32:22.200 like numismatists in the comments and whatnot. But um, the 1:32:22.400 --> 1:32:26.880 first okay, the first mixed gold and silver coin was 1:32:27.280 --> 1:32:32.639 sometime in the seventh century BC, and the first gold 1:32:32.720 --> 1:32:35.560 coin was not long after. I think it was like 1:32:35.960 --> 1:32:41.040 they were both Lydian kings, like one after another. Anyway, 1:32:41.040 --> 1:32:42.840 I just wanted to hit that because someone said I 1:32:42.880 --> 1:32:49.080 got wrong earlier. But um uh, these coins were kind 1:32:49.080 --> 1:32:54.200 of the first widely used sort of retail means of 1:32:54.320 --> 1:32:58.599 settling debts, like at the point of sale between people. 1:32:59.040 --> 1:33:01.280 So it wasn't just an accounting system. It was an 1:33:01.280 --> 1:33:04.160 elaborate credit system with no circulating means of payment. It 1:33:04.280 --> 1:33:08.640 was a circulating money. Now and it's getting around um 1:33:09.040 --> 1:33:13.960 based on military conquest. Military conquest in the excellent age 1:33:14.520 --> 1:33:17.920 spread the use of coins much wider than the domestic 1:33:18.000 --> 1:33:20.960 spheres in which they were first minted. Yeah, and I 1:33:21.240 --> 1:33:23.439 think we should like just just to talk about it 1:33:23.439 --> 1:33:26.439 about like roughly when this is like you know like 1:33:26.479 --> 1:33:27.960 if if if you go back, I mean this this 1:33:28.080 --> 1:33:30.840 is slightly later, but one of the huge sort of 1:33:30.960 --> 1:33:34.360 like like the periods where like the entire Mediterraneans using coinage, 1:33:34.439 --> 1:33:36.040 right is you know you're this this is this is 1:33:36.080 --> 1:33:38.160 when you're dealing with you're sort of like classical Greek 1:33:38.320 --> 1:33:40.120 like you have you have your gree your Greeks and 1:33:40.200 --> 1:33:41.960 your Persians, and you have your sort of like Athens 1:33:42.000 --> 1:33:45.840 and sparta Um and that those guys are very much uh, 1:33:46.160 --> 1:33:49.320 they're engaged in this thing that Graver calls the the 1:33:49.400 --> 1:33:54.599 military industrial coinage slavery complex, the military industrial coinage complex. Yeah, 1:33:54.800 --> 1:33:56.439 and I yeah, I think he has slavery on the 1:33:56.520 --> 1:33:58.599 end because it's yeah, it's it's this giant sort of places, 1:33:58.720 --> 1:34:02.240 giant warfare system. Right, these are like like Athens is 1:34:02.240 --> 1:34:04.559 an empire, right, they run around, they steal, they see 1:34:04.640 --> 1:34:07.160 people's gold, this golden silver byance, and they like have 1:34:07.320 --> 1:34:09.320 slaves that work in this this whole sort of light 1:34:10.720 --> 1:34:13.479 like this. Yeah, you get the system of empire that 1:34:13.720 --> 1:34:17.120 is like what the actual ages sort of defined by. Yeah. Yeah, 1:34:17.200 --> 1:34:21.439 And it's like whereas previously, like so precious medals did circulate, 1:34:21.520 --> 1:34:23.720 but they weren't in coin form, and they were more 1:34:24.040 --> 1:34:27.639 as like a bulk means of payment stored from one 1:34:27.680 --> 1:34:30.519 temple to the next, almost as if they are central banks, 1:34:30.560 --> 1:34:35.000 but central banks don't exist yet, and actual actual age 1:34:35.080 --> 1:34:39.360 coinage system gave rise to the more much more sophisticated 1:34:39.439 --> 1:34:43.559 medieval coinage system. And I'm going breezily through this because um, 1:34:43.680 --> 1:34:47.920 there's a lot there, but several years, there's several thousands 1:34:48.000 --> 1:34:50.400 years they're passing in a few minutes here, so um, 1:34:50.680 --> 1:34:57.160 bear with me. But there are there now in the Mediva, 1:34:57.400 --> 1:35:00.040 Medieval and Renaissance times, not only do we have the 1:35:00.080 --> 1:35:03.479 coin is circulating, but we also have credit instruments um 1:35:03.960 --> 1:35:11.559 which uh are being submitted, transferred, transmitted rather between banks uh, 1:35:12.720 --> 1:35:17.639 between banks in different countries and territories that are saying, hey, 1:35:17.880 --> 1:35:21.759 you don't even need to based on what is written 1:35:21.800 --> 1:35:24.439 on this piece of paper, I already know you're good 1:35:24.479 --> 1:35:28.280 for it. I will dispense with the coins uh that 1:35:28.600 --> 1:35:31.360 I have in my bank because this paper signifies that 1:35:31.479 --> 1:35:34.880 they you're good for it, basically, and so that greatly 1:35:35.200 --> 1:35:40.479 speeds things up in terms of UM settling commerce debts 1:35:41.320 --> 1:35:47.560 and and uh settling bills between different UM states. So 1:35:48.840 --> 1:35:50.760 but going through all this history, the point of it 1:35:50.960 --> 1:35:53.960 is that at every at every sort of step of 1:35:54.040 --> 1:35:56.479 the way, you see, okay, there's a lot of different 1:35:56.520 --> 1:35:59.960 types of money. They're circulating and they're being exchanged against 1:36:00.040 --> 1:36:02.599 one another, and there also seems to be a domestic 1:36:02.680 --> 1:36:08.320 sphere and international sphere. The international means of payment, which 1:36:08.439 --> 1:36:11.920 is a analytic category that um I and my co 1:36:12.080 --> 1:36:16.120 author John Michael Cloone thought up, is kind of sort 1:36:16.160 --> 1:36:21.960 of sets the tune as far as what uh, what 1:36:22.360 --> 1:36:25.840 kind of hierarchy of money, if you will, develops in 1:36:26.160 --> 1:36:30.080 each of these ages. So like in the prior to 1:36:30.120 --> 1:36:33.600 the Axle Age, there were both there was bulk settlements 1:36:33.720 --> 1:36:36.639 from one temple to the next in terms of silver 1:36:36.920 --> 1:36:40.360 although it wasn't coins, it was just UM like bullion 1:36:40.840 --> 1:36:44.880 basically UM, and then and then later it was coins, 1:36:44.920 --> 1:36:47.280 and then later it was bills of exchange, and then 1:36:48.800 --> 1:36:54.160 after a while there emerged gold standards UM that existed 1:36:54.200 --> 1:36:58.960 between nations, and they had central banks eventually, which UM 1:36:59.200 --> 1:37:02.360 hoarded goal old not because not just because they are 1:37:02.439 --> 1:37:06.000 fetishizing it or something something basic like that, but rather 1:37:06.200 --> 1:37:10.280 because it was the established international means of payment. And 1:37:11.240 --> 1:37:13.840 if you either you need that or you need something 1:37:13.920 --> 1:37:18.120 that is easily transferable into that in order to conduct 1:37:18.200 --> 1:37:23.560 your trade, especially if you're developing country or um A 1:37:23.880 --> 1:37:29.439 otherwise like an upstart state of some type. Now today 1:37:29.600 --> 1:37:34.000 we're in a dollarized world. The dollar is the international 1:37:34.080 --> 1:37:39.519 means of payment from one onwards the M M T story, Yeah, 1:37:39.560 --> 1:37:43.560 I mean that's basically true. The E then the for 1:37:44.240 --> 1:37:47.880 the US government as the issuer the sole issue of 1:37:48.000 --> 1:37:50.680 the dollar, which is a fiat currency which is not 1:37:50.800 --> 1:37:53.960 backed by anything UM. Yeah, you can make as much 1:37:54.000 --> 1:37:56.560 of that as what you want. You could make, you 1:37:56.640 --> 1:38:00.760 can create and spend into existence as need dollars as 1:38:00.840 --> 1:38:04.559 the US government wants, and then delete it from existence 1:38:04.640 --> 1:38:08.759 by taxing it away. And that makes perfect sense totally 1:38:08.760 --> 1:38:12.200 acknowledged that. But there's some problems nonetheless in terms of 1:38:12.280 --> 1:38:16.759 how they apply that into a more general theory, because 1:38:16.800 --> 1:38:19.680 it's like, can you, okay, you can make as much 1:38:19.720 --> 1:38:22.439 of your own money, what about other types of money 1:38:23.120 --> 1:38:27.680 from the perspective of a US state craft interested individual, 1:38:27.920 --> 1:38:32.880 Like why would you care about other people's money? Basically, 1:38:33.000 --> 1:38:35.720 if you're just the full sole source of the of 1:38:35.800 --> 1:38:38.320 the US dollar, which happens to also be the international 1:38:38.360 --> 1:38:42.439 means of payment, of course you wouldn't are if you're like, say, 1:38:42.560 --> 1:38:50.200 to Tunisia. The Tunisian dollar is accepted almost nowhere as payment. Yeah, 1:38:50.280 --> 1:38:51.840 And and one one of the big things, I mean, 1:38:52.000 --> 1:38:54.360 it's not the soul driver and people start for emphasize this. 1:38:54.439 --> 1:38:56.880 I'm going to caveat this immediately because people will yell 1:38:56.920 --> 1:38:58.080 at me. But like, one of one of the very 1:38:58.080 --> 1:39:00.840 important things about the dollar is that the dollar is 1:39:00.880 --> 1:39:04.280 what you can buy oil in. And this is extremely 1:39:04.320 --> 1:39:06.880 important because if you are a society in the world, 1:39:07.160 --> 1:39:11.560 you need oil. Um, this is basically universally true. And 1:39:11.800 --> 1:39:14.680 and this you know, but and the fact that you 1:39:14.760 --> 1:39:16.160 need to buy oil, and and the fact that you 1:39:16.160 --> 1:39:17.320 need to buy a lot of other things that are 1:39:17.360 --> 1:39:20.280 manufactured in the US means you have to find some 1:39:20.400 --> 1:39:23.360 way to get U S dollars. Now, again, the US doesn't. 1:39:23.360 --> 1:39:24.920 This doesn't matter for the U S because we can 1:39:24.960 --> 1:39:28.439 just make them. Well okay, a, this is another thing. 1:39:29.240 --> 1:39:32.840 This stuff gets very weird and convoluted very quickly. Um. 1:39:32.960 --> 1:39:37.680 But the essentially the US can just sort of make 1:39:37.840 --> 1:39:40.559 this money technically speaking as a federal reserve. And there's 1:39:40.600 --> 1:39:44.840 all of this just incredibly convoluted finance stuff. But yeah, 1:39:44.880 --> 1:39:46.760 the the US like doesn't the US does not have 1:39:46.920 --> 1:39:48.840 to worry about obtaining U S dollars. You could just 1:39:48.920 --> 1:39:51.760 do it. But you know, yeah, if if you're if 1:39:51.800 --> 1:39:53.720 you're if you're I don't know if true Trenisia, if 1:39:53.760 --> 1:39:57.519 you're Denmarks an example, Yeah, den Mark. Yeah, like you 1:39:57.760 --> 1:39:59.400 you you need to find a way to get US 1:39:59.439 --> 1:40:01.200 dollars because you need to have stuff, you need to 1:40:01.320 --> 1:40:04.280 use US dollars to buy it. Mhm. Yeah. And so 1:40:04.479 --> 1:40:07.400 in our national context, this is after all of the 1:40:07.479 --> 1:40:10.800 history I just went through, since about or so when 1:40:10.880 --> 1:40:13.439 we went off the gold standard. Um, we have a 1:40:13.520 --> 1:40:17.320 system of central banks dominated by the dollar, and the 1:40:17.439 --> 1:40:25.519 dollar represents about of settlement of all trade and the 1:40:25.640 --> 1:40:29.879 next five or so currencies are plus the US account 1:40:30.000 --> 1:40:34.080 for like a d of all trade, so there's really 1:40:34.240 --> 1:40:38.679 just a few currencies which dominate everything, with the US 1:40:38.760 --> 1:40:43.240 being outsized among them. And when you look at the 1:40:43.320 --> 1:40:47.200 historical record, this is like very similar to other forms 1:40:47.240 --> 1:40:49.800 of international means of payment, where it's like, okay, I 1:40:49.840 --> 1:40:51.599 either need to have the one that's at the top, 1:40:52.200 --> 1:40:56.920 or failing that, one of the other sort of reserve currencies, 1:40:57.160 --> 1:41:00.639 even though that that that terminology didn't really exists prior 1:41:00.680 --> 1:41:05.960 to about eighty years ago. Um. But yeah, so like 1:41:06.080 --> 1:41:08.120 if you don't if it's not gold, then okay, it's 1:41:08.120 --> 1:41:10.800 the US dollar, So we need dollars or we either 1:41:10.920 --> 1:41:13.120 need to be printing dollars because we're the U S 1:41:13.240 --> 1:41:16.000 or for not them, then we need to get into 1:41:16.120 --> 1:41:18.599 either U S Dollar or the yen or the euro 1:41:18.920 --> 1:41:23.280 or one of the major trading currencies. And um, like China, 1:41:25.120 --> 1:41:28.120 China does a lot of trade with the US and 1:41:28.800 --> 1:41:32.799 they sell things to us, We give them dollars. They're rational, 1:41:33.040 --> 1:41:36.160 they put their dollars into treasuries to gain a little 1:41:36.160 --> 1:41:38.240 bit of a return instead of just holding the dollars 1:41:38.320 --> 1:41:40.800 themselves for no return. Do we explain I guess what 1:41:40.880 --> 1:41:44.320 a treasury is because yeah, sorry, Uh, the treasury bill 1:41:44.680 --> 1:41:47.040 is if you receive dollars, you can use them to 1:41:47.120 --> 1:41:49.880 purchase what's called a treasury note or a treasury bill 1:41:50.400 --> 1:41:52.800 and notes too. So if you ever hear something to 1:41:52.840 --> 1:41:55.240 talk about tea notes, that that's what this is. Yeah. 1:41:55.320 --> 1:41:57.680 So it's a way to learn. It's like moving from 1:41:57.720 --> 1:42:00.760 your checking to your savings account essentially. So if you 1:42:00.840 --> 1:42:03.439 have just dollars in a bank, it doesn't earn hardly anything. 1:42:03.760 --> 1:42:05.560 If you're in a saving if you go into the 1:42:05.640 --> 1:42:08.800 savings account, which is basically the treasury the treasury bills, 1:42:09.000 --> 1:42:11.720 you'll learn a little more and you'll learn dollars. You 1:42:11.760 --> 1:42:15.320 won't earn reminity from them. You'll learn more dollars and 1:42:15.439 --> 1:42:18.800 dollars for the international means of payments. So that's good. Yeah. 1:42:18.840 --> 1:42:21.920 So so like basically like there's the US government puts 1:42:21.920 --> 1:42:23.800 out a bond and like you buy it and then 1:42:24.640 --> 1:42:26.880 when when whatever it like expires or there's like a 1:42:26.960 --> 1:42:29.200 ten year team note that people talk about that's like 1:42:29.880 --> 1:42:32.120 years you buy it and yeah, it'll give it'll give 1:42:32.120 --> 1:42:34.720 you like a certain amount of dollars like later on 1:42:34.840 --> 1:42:37.519 that is more than what you paid for it HM exactly, 1:42:37.720 --> 1:42:39.519 So you'll learn a little bit of interest over time, 1:42:39.920 --> 1:42:41.840 and then you may earn like a little lump sum 1:42:41.920 --> 1:42:47.360 when it matures in in the future. So China has 1:42:47.720 --> 1:42:50.840 tons of dollars. It's part of a huge strategy that 1:42:50.960 --> 1:42:55.599 they have in order to manage their foreign their foreign 1:42:55.640 --> 1:42:59.800 currency reserves or what's called for X. So for X 1:43:00.120 --> 1:43:03.280 is the that's the term. We're going to use a 1:43:03.320 --> 1:43:07.400 lot um. That just is the foreign currency reserves you 1:43:07.520 --> 1:43:10.400 have on hand in order to pay for things that 1:43:10.520 --> 1:43:15.080 are only available for sale in currencies that you can't 1:43:15.120 --> 1:43:17.639 make yourself. Okay. So you know you have this question 1:43:17.720 --> 1:43:19.519 of like why do we care about this? Right, Like 1:43:19.880 --> 1:43:21.679 why do we people who want to make the world 1:43:21.720 --> 1:43:25.960 better care about this? And the answer is, okay, take 1:43:26.040 --> 1:43:29.759 take take your hypothetical scenario, your your Your hypothetical scenario 1:43:30.080 --> 1:43:33.679 is the scenario in which like a a a bunch 1:43:33.720 --> 1:43:36.559 of workers in alliance with like tribal confederations have taken 1:43:36.680 --> 1:43:39.360 Vancouver Island, right, and they've set up a new They've 1:43:39.360 --> 1:43:40.880 they've set up a new government that they have worked 1:43:40.920 --> 1:43:44.120 out sovereignty arrangements. Things have happened. You now have a 1:43:44.200 --> 1:43:47.000 new you have you have a new sort of entity 1:43:47.120 --> 1:43:51.560 that that is in Vancouver Island. Um. Yeah, so so 1:43:51.760 --> 1:43:56.760 immediately you have you have both you have both resources 1:43:56.800 --> 1:43:59.240 and you have problems. Right. You have a certain amount 1:43:59.240 --> 1:44:02.680 of resources that on Vancouver Island, right, you have you know, 1:44:02.800 --> 1:44:05.560 you have like you have literally like what what you 1:44:05.680 --> 1:44:06.960 have the things that are on the island. Right. You 1:44:07.040 --> 1:44:10.280 have cars, you have like probably some yaches you've managed 1:44:10.320 --> 1:44:13.519 to like steal you have you know, you have you 1:44:13.560 --> 1:44:17.920 have shops, you have production facilities, you have extremely large 1:44:18.000 --> 1:44:26.880 number of very good Chinese restaurants. Uh you have trees. Trees, yeah, 1:44:26.920 --> 1:44:30.040 you know restaurants. I mean also it's true like I yeah, 1:44:30.080 --> 1:44:32.360 my my my family spent a lot of time like 1:44:32.479 --> 1:44:36.639 specifically going going to Vancouver Island just to eat Chinese food. Uh. Yeah, 1:44:36.720 --> 1:44:38.479 you know, and say say like, let' let's say you've 1:44:38.479 --> 1:44:40.360 taken Vancouver Island and you you expand out and you 1:44:40.439 --> 1:44:42.920 now have like a swath of Canada, right that that 1:44:43.080 --> 1:44:44.639 is that is that is now sort of been liberated, 1:44:44.720 --> 1:44:46.479 and you know, you have you have you have a 1:44:46.520 --> 1:44:48.640 lot of resources. You have sort of timber, you have 1:44:49.880 --> 1:44:52.400 I don't know, maybe you have coal, maybe you have 1:44:52.680 --> 1:44:54.360 other stuff you have, you have, and you also have 1:44:54.400 --> 1:44:59.400 a lot of people and yeah, you have a lot 1:44:59.439 --> 1:45:01.519 of labor and and those people have a lot of skills, 1:45:01.640 --> 1:45:04.439 they have a lot of education, they have like you know, 1:45:04.560 --> 1:45:06.240 they have, they have, they have, they have a belief 1:45:06.280 --> 1:45:08.439 that you can make the world a better place. And 1:45:08.640 --> 1:45:12.200 I think this is where you know, this is this 1:45:12.360 --> 1:45:15.799 is the arena in which MMT can sort of explain 1:45:15.920 --> 1:45:20.800 what you're doing next. Mhm Yeah. So you have this um, 1:45:21.479 --> 1:45:24.680 you have a territory, this undergone revolutionary change, and you 1:45:24.760 --> 1:45:29.599 have biophysical resources that are in it and biophysical resources 1:45:29.680 --> 1:45:34.400 that could be in it. And you have and you 1:45:34.479 --> 1:45:37.280 also have the social technology of money. Some of the 1:45:37.320 --> 1:45:40.080 money you can just make yourself. Other moneys you cannot 1:45:41.200 --> 1:45:44.519 um M m T in the is applicable in the 1:45:44.600 --> 1:45:47.760 sense that it says in this scenario. I think the 1:45:47.840 --> 1:45:50.840 most the way MMT is most acclicable is to say 1:45:51.880 --> 1:45:56.639 everyone can be employed. Who wants to be employed, Yeah, 1:45:56.680 --> 1:45:58.880 there's they're the One of their principal ideas is a 1:45:58.960 --> 1:46:01.639 job you're in a federal job guarantee. And it could 1:46:01.640 --> 1:46:06.040 be applied just as easily conceptually in this situation. It says, 1:46:07.479 --> 1:46:12.439 UM there's nothing preventing a revolutionary government of some type, um, 1:46:12.640 --> 1:46:15.840 not necessarily a states, but any any non state type 1:46:15.880 --> 1:46:20.360 of administration from setting up something sort of like a 1:46:20.479 --> 1:46:24.640 central bank to make its own money, to martial domestic resources, 1:46:24.800 --> 1:46:30.000 domestic in terms of within its own territory, and to 1:46:30.680 --> 1:46:34.040 get everyone everyone who wants to be employed, to be 1:46:34.160 --> 1:46:37.200 employed and to be paid for their work. Like not 1:46:37.360 --> 1:46:40.560 to be too vulgar, but like why why this is 1:46:40.600 --> 1:46:43.519 stuff is important? This monetary theory in this history is like, 1:46:43.960 --> 1:46:47.080 people want to be paid for their work. They're not 1:46:47.200 --> 1:46:50.120 going to go inviter things. They want to get paid. Yeah, 1:46:50.160 --> 1:46:52.479 And I think this is something that like you know, 1:46:52.520 --> 1:46:54.080 if if if if you look at sort of like 1:46:54.560 --> 1:46:56.679 the thing that gets held up was like the classic 1:46:56.720 --> 1:46:59.160 example of an anarchist revolution, right is is what happens 1:46:59.200 --> 1:47:02.519 in Spain necinety six. And if if if you look 1:47:02.560 --> 1:47:07.559 at what they do right like very almost immediately after 1:47:07.600 --> 1:47:10.080 the revolution, what happens is you have basically like a 1:47:10.240 --> 1:47:13.280 union of all of the bank workers, and those guys 1:47:13.360 --> 1:47:15.840 take over all the banks, um, and you you have 1:47:15.960 --> 1:47:18.439 you have the individual work like workers in different unions 1:47:18.439 --> 1:47:20.800 starts seizing, they start seasing the factories that start seizing 1:47:20.880 --> 1:47:23.880 like the trains. And once they've done that, they start 1:47:24.000 --> 1:47:27.000 just pulling all of their resources into you know, like 1:47:27.080 --> 1:47:29.240 in into like they have they they now have this 1:47:29.439 --> 1:47:31.080 like they have they have the banking union. The banking 1:47:31.160 --> 1:47:33.080 union is is that the sort of sexual body that 1:47:33.200 --> 1:47:36.160 has resources that can distribute it. And you know what 1:47:36.320 --> 1:47:38.680 what what MMT is essentially saying is like, yeah, so 1:47:40.040 --> 1:47:43.000 as long as what you're moving around is the resources 1:47:43.040 --> 1:47:45.560 that you have in your territory, like you can just 1:47:45.840 --> 1:47:48.360 create money in order to do that, and you can 1:47:48.439 --> 1:47:50.280 sort of you know, and you can use this to 1:47:50.320 --> 1:47:51.880 get people to do certain things. And like you know, 1:47:52.000 --> 1:47:56.479 the Catalonians, like they they the equals if one's wages, 1:47:56.560 --> 1:47:58.280 for example, I mean, it would be better if we 1:47:58.320 --> 1:48:01.000 equalize everyone's wages. I do agree with that. Yeah, well, 1:48:01.160 --> 1:48:02.920 you know, I mean they did do with a lot 1:48:02.960 --> 1:48:05.080 of other stuff that's like okay, so like they get 1:48:05.200 --> 1:48:07.400 rid of a lot of jobs that are like sort 1:48:07.439 --> 1:48:10.120 of managerial stuff or like just bullshit jobs they just 1:48:10.200 --> 1:48:12.439 kind of eliminate and yeah, and you know, and this 1:48:12.600 --> 1:48:15.360 this frees up people to like do stuff that actually 1:48:15.439 --> 1:48:18.160 matters and is real instead of sort of dislike this 1:48:18.240 --> 1:48:23.120 sort of bureaucratic hierarchy that's above them. And yeah, but 1:48:23.240 --> 1:48:24.519 and I think the other thing they do that's that's 1:48:24.600 --> 1:48:27.120 very important for our sort of scenario for us talking 1:48:27.120 --> 1:48:29.960 about money is that like they they immediately start like 1:48:30.200 --> 1:48:34.280 they start seizing gold and they start seizing you know, 1:48:34.360 --> 1:48:37.360 like they start seasing foreign currency. And yeah, and I 1:48:37.400 --> 1:48:38.880 think that this this is where we can get into 1:48:38.920 --> 1:48:41.840 where where I guess MP doesn't work because m T 1:48:42.800 --> 1:48:47.559 like it's it's it's it doesn't. It doesn't really think 1:48:47.720 --> 1:48:50.920 much about the fact that like, Okay, you have Vancouver Island, 1:48:51.000 --> 1:48:54.320 you have a part of like Canada, right, there is 1:48:54.400 --> 1:48:58.760 a lot of resources that you don't have. Absolutely, Yeah, 1:48:58.800 --> 1:49:03.759 that's that's that's gonna be a lot of why foreign 1:49:03.800 --> 1:49:09.160 exchange matters so much as that, you know, you inevitably 1:49:09.240 --> 1:49:13.719 you think, what if we just made an autartic society. 1:49:13.920 --> 1:49:17.160 That's sorry, that's a little I probably jump got a 1:49:17.160 --> 1:49:19.360 little bit there. What if we just made everything ourselves? 1:49:19.439 --> 1:49:23.880 What if we made a society that was fully economically independent. Um, 1:49:24.360 --> 1:49:27.000 that's what autarchy tends to be used to mean. And 1:49:27.160 --> 1:49:32.080 the answer to that is because that sucks. The problem 1:49:32.120 --> 1:49:35.559 with it is that it sucks like you, you don't 1:49:35.760 --> 1:49:38.560 want to be trying to manage an autartic society on 1:49:38.800 --> 1:49:45.439 multiple grounds, uh, not least of which is that I mean, 1:49:45.479 --> 1:49:48.160 we've we've we've seen societies try to do it, and uh, 1:49:48.439 --> 1:49:51.479 you know, we me, me and Steve could go for 1:49:51.600 --> 1:49:54.479 hours and hours and hours talking about historical precedents of 1:49:54.560 --> 1:49:57.439 previous economic systems, many of which did try to be autartic, 1:49:57.520 --> 1:49:59.920 because that was something that monarchy has liked a lot, 1:50:00.360 --> 1:50:03.800 was the idea that their their kingdom could be fully independent. 1:50:04.040 --> 1:50:07.479 Because the thing is that when you're economically independent, that 1:50:07.560 --> 1:50:10.360 means that you've got a certain amount of security, of 1:50:10.439 --> 1:50:13.439 international security. Uh. And there's kind of a trade off 1:50:13.560 --> 1:50:16.400 where the more stuff that you're reliant on importing, the 1:50:16.520 --> 1:50:19.280 more vulnerable you are to the people you're importing and 1:50:19.560 --> 1:50:25.040 screwing you. But it's just so massively difficult to be 1:50:25.240 --> 1:50:28.200 a good producer of every possible good. Yeah, and and 1:50:28.280 --> 1:50:30.080 this and this is this is true even if you 1:50:30.200 --> 1:50:32.760 have an annoyance amount of resources, like I think, you know, 1:50:32.800 --> 1:50:34.639 we can talk about one case study of this, which 1:50:34.720 --> 1:50:37.639 is socialist period China, and you know, social spirit China. 1:50:39.200 --> 1:50:42.960 They they have they they they're they're getting resources, and 1:50:43.080 --> 1:50:45.160 especially the early periods, you're getting some resources from like 1:50:45.240 --> 1:50:47.519 Hong Kong, they're getting some stuff from the Soviets. But 1:50:48.120 --> 1:50:52.720 you know they get into like Mao famously does not 1:50:52.880 --> 1:50:55.280 like markets. Um, this is a this is the thing 1:50:55.320 --> 1:50:57.360 that is known about Mao, and so Mao is like, Okay, 1:50:57.400 --> 1:50:59.040 We're like no, we're going to shut off the sort 1:50:59.080 --> 1:51:01.639 of like ket system that we that we've been running 1:51:01.640 --> 1:51:05.160 sort of through Hong Kong. And then you know, China 1:51:05.200 --> 1:51:08.680 have been getting technology transfers and aid from the USSR. 1:51:08.880 --> 1:51:10.599 But you know, the US are in China got into 1:51:10.600 --> 1:51:12.680 a bunch of political fights and the US are like 1:51:12.720 --> 1:51:16.000 pulls out all of advisors and you know China, China 1:51:16.120 --> 1:51:18.360 has an enormous amount of resources, right, they have a 1:51:18.439 --> 1:51:22.280 large population, they have they have just an enormous geographic mass, 1:51:23.479 --> 1:51:27.960 and so they basically try to you know, build into 1:51:28.000 --> 1:51:29.720 target society and they try to sort of just okay, 1:51:29.760 --> 1:51:31.720 well we'll just what does martial our resources and we'll 1:51:31.760 --> 1:51:33.360 just sort of like, well, we'll plan a way out 1:51:33.400 --> 1:51:34.600 of it. And they run into this problem, which is 1:51:34.640 --> 1:51:36.320 that there is actually things that they need from other countries, 1:51:36.360 --> 1:51:39.320 which is technology, and they hit this thing I've talked 1:51:39.360 --> 1:51:42.400 about before, which is, uh, like they basically get this bottle, 1:51:42.439 --> 1:51:44.280 this production bottleneck where it's like, well, okay, so in 1:51:44.400 --> 1:51:46.639 order to produce more industrial goods, than need more food. 1:51:47.400 --> 1:51:49.120 But the problem is, in order to produce more food 1:51:49.160 --> 1:51:52.120 to support a large urban population, uh, you need more 1:51:52.120 --> 1:51:54.519 industrial goods, right, You need your like fertilizers, need your 1:51:54.560 --> 1:51:57.720 tractors and need stuff like that, and you know, and 1:51:58.240 --> 1:52:00.200 once they're cut off from sort of the rest of 1:52:00.240 --> 1:52:01.880 the world from through Hong Kong, and for the U. S. 1:52:01.960 --> 1:52:05.000 S R. They don't have what they you know, they're 1:52:05.000 --> 1:52:06.760 they're sort of they're sort of scrambling to figure out 1:52:06.800 --> 1:52:09.519 how we do this. And their solution is a greatly forward, 1:52:10.200 --> 1:52:13.160 which is essentially we're we're we're gonna just bust through 1:52:13.200 --> 1:52:14.679 this whole thing, and we're gonna do it by forcing 1:52:14.720 --> 1:52:18.559 everyone to work for like an absolutely enormous like increase 1:52:18.600 --> 1:52:20.160 in hours. Right Like, We're we're gonna we're gonna have 1:52:20.160 --> 1:52:22.759 peasants working in the fields literally until they collasse some exhaustion, 1:52:23.400 --> 1:52:25.080 and it just doesn't work. It is a it is 1:52:25.160 --> 1:52:28.640 a epocal failure. There are millions of people die from 1:52:28.680 --> 1:52:32.519 famines and you know, and the sort of the response 1:52:32.600 --> 1:52:36.360 to this is that, like is that China eventually ends 1:52:36.439 --> 1:52:39.200 up like winds up opening its economy again. Yeah and 1:52:39.400 --> 1:52:40.880 yeah and yeah, and like you know, and this is 1:52:40.920 --> 1:52:44.240 the thing, like if if China, which has like just 1:52:44.560 --> 1:52:47.800 just an astounding breath of natural resources, can't pull this off, 1:52:48.200 --> 1:52:53.000 like it's probably just not a good idea because it's like, yeah, well, 1:52:53.080 --> 1:52:55.160 I mean we even have like a very you know, 1:52:55.240 --> 1:52:59.160 a very contemporary example that you know, makes they will 1:52:59.280 --> 1:53:01.040 make certainly makes my blood, boy, and I'm sure we 1:53:01.040 --> 1:53:04.920 will make some of the listeners blood boil. The vaccines, uh, 1:53:05.120 --> 1:53:10.280 you know, the realistically, you know, the the coronavirus is 1:53:10.400 --> 1:53:13.320 fund is a more or less is an incredible threat 1:53:13.360 --> 1:53:15.559 to basically adding every state on the planet at this point. 1:53:16.080 --> 1:53:22.280 And the really really chemical and biomedical research is done 1:53:22.320 --> 1:53:25.080 in just a handful of places on the planet. Uh. 1:53:25.560 --> 1:53:29.920 And there have been attempts to create vaccines outside of 1:53:30.000 --> 1:53:33.800 those places, and they have been somewhat successful, but it 1:53:33.960 --> 1:53:37.880 has been difficult, and most places are just not in 1:53:37.960 --> 1:53:44.000 a position to create a to develop their own competing technology. Uh. 1:53:44.120 --> 1:53:48.480 And even China struggled with creating their own competing vaccination technology. 1:53:48.479 --> 1:53:52.120 And I'm not at all a bio biology expert, understand 1:53:52.200 --> 1:53:56.360 it's a not quite a sufficient vaccine, the sinovac. But 1:53:57.400 --> 1:53:59.559 at the end of the day, this is like South 1:53:59.600 --> 1:54:02.080 Africa not developing their own independent vaccine. That's a quite 1:54:02.120 --> 1:54:06.040 sophisticatedicated economy. All of all the very South American countries 1:54:06.080 --> 1:54:08.800 could have pulled their resources together in theory, but it's 1:54:08.880 --> 1:54:12.879 so hard to turn a dime and develop from scratch 1:54:12.960 --> 1:54:18.120 a primary research industry. Uh, it's so difficult, and it's 1:54:18.160 --> 1:54:20.880 so not worth it. It's you know, if you have 1:54:21.240 --> 1:54:25.479 trade relations with a country that has technology developments in 1:54:25.560 --> 1:54:28.040 a field that you really care about, it's just not 1:54:28.840 --> 1:54:32.080 really worth it. Like we don't the United States doesn't 1:54:32.080 --> 1:54:34.960 really compete with several sort of forms of Japanese technology 1:54:35.040 --> 1:54:40.080 because it's just not worth the bother. Uh. Just let 1:54:40.560 --> 1:54:43.600 Korea and Japan handle that for US, and we buy 1:54:43.640 --> 1:54:46.280 it and they accept our our four x they accept 1:54:46.320 --> 1:54:50.720 our dollars. But you know, let's say you're the Philippines, Yeah, 1:54:51.720 --> 1:54:54.480 how are you going to get those? And uh, this 1:54:54.680 --> 1:54:57.720 is this is now international trade and international politics. And 1:54:58.680 --> 1:55:02.200 if we're creating our now independent Vancouver Island, we have 1:55:02.280 --> 1:55:05.960 now entered into this territory, we have now entered into 1:55:06.360 --> 1:55:11.040 international politics and international trade. Yeah, and and this this 1:55:11.160 --> 1:55:13.920 is an arena that's fraud in a lot of ways 1:55:14.040 --> 1:55:16.240 because it's it's you know, as you've sort of been 1:55:16.240 --> 1:55:18.080 talking about, right, it's it's not just that you need. 1:55:19.520 --> 1:55:21.360 It's not sing that you need for XP. It's like example, 1:55:21.400 --> 1:55:23.880 like you know, if you have you have your sort 1:55:23.920 --> 1:55:27.240 of like you know, you you you you have your 1:55:27.280 --> 1:55:31.040 new society and like Vancouver, right mack you violence, you 1:55:31.120 --> 1:55:32.960 know you need the thing you need mostly is dollars. 1:55:34.280 --> 1:55:39.240 And this is this is a real problem because this 1:55:39.440 --> 1:55:42.760 requires you to have something that you can turn into dollars. 1:55:43.960 --> 1:55:45.760 And you know, okay, so you're you're going to have 1:55:45.920 --> 1:55:49.360 some amount of dollars that are just there right from 1:55:49.400 --> 1:55:51.720 from when you see society. There's there's assets you can 1:55:51.760 --> 1:55:53.520 sort of just sell off that like okay, like do 1:55:53.600 --> 1:55:56.040 we really need this yacht? Like okay, we can, we 1:55:56.080 --> 1:55:57.600 can we can sell this for some amount of dollars. 1:55:58.480 --> 1:56:03.360 But this becomes a real economic problem because you need 1:56:03.440 --> 1:56:07.440 to produce something that you can exchange for dollars, and 1:56:07.640 --> 1:56:10.120 you know, there's there's a pretty good chance that like 1:56:10.600 --> 1:56:12.760 whatever sort of new currency whatever new sort of like 1:56:12.920 --> 1:56:16.880 MMT currency that's like, oh, it's it's controlled because we're producing. 1:56:16.920 --> 1:56:19.360 It moves our resources around. We can make a bustment 1:56:19.400 --> 1:56:21.840 as we want, Like yeah, you have to actually be 1:56:21.840 --> 1:56:24.920 able to look convert that into dollars. And you know 1:56:25.360 --> 1:56:27.280 why why does the U? Y is the US going 1:56:27.320 --> 1:56:30.920 to want your currency? Yeah, it's a bit dialectical because 1:56:31.000 --> 1:56:33.839 you have to. Okay, you have your m m T currency, 1:56:33.960 --> 1:56:37.320 which domestically is accepted because of text receive ability or 1:56:37.400 --> 1:56:42.520 something uh or or national fervor if you will to 1:56:42.840 --> 1:56:50.440 um create a new democratic confederalists society um, and that's 1:56:50.440 --> 1:56:52.880 accepted there. But yeah, you need US sellars. So like 1:56:54.440 --> 1:56:56.400 you need us sellars. But why do you need them? 1:56:56.880 --> 1:57:00.480 Partly because like you eventually want to not need them. Yeah, 1:57:01.000 --> 1:57:03.400 and so you have what you can You have assets 1:57:03.520 --> 1:57:06.480 right now that you can just sell, so that's one way, 1:57:06.800 --> 1:57:08.920 but long term you can't do that. So you need 1:57:09.000 --> 1:57:12.839 to have cash flow over the long haul that allows 1:57:12.920 --> 1:57:17.360 you to buy what are called capital goods, which are 1:57:18.560 --> 1:57:21.920 is a fancy term for machines that make machines or 1:57:22.080 --> 1:57:25.480 machines that make some sort of like in product, which 1:57:25.560 --> 1:57:27.720 is a physical thing. It's not like a service or something. 1:57:29.040 --> 1:57:36.600 And um, you want to classic like really classic economic 1:57:36.680 --> 1:57:41.200 development advice that is actually pretty good is you want 1:57:41.280 --> 1:57:44.120 to move up what's called a value chain and eventually 1:57:44.360 --> 1:57:47.720 be not producing, um, just like a stable crop or something, 1:57:47.880 --> 1:57:52.160 but doing really innovative advanced technology things later on. So 1:57:52.320 --> 1:57:54.480 you like, here's where I am, here's what I have, 1:57:55.560 --> 1:57:59.280 Here's what I could have. Though, how do I get there? Um, 1:57:59.600 --> 1:58:02.200 part of of part of the formula to get there 1:58:02.520 --> 1:58:06.640 is yes, acquiring for X, but it's other things like saying, 1:58:07.240 --> 1:58:11.440 how do I cultivate political alliances that will yield trade 1:58:11.480 --> 1:58:14.520 partners such that I have a stable flow of for 1:58:14.880 --> 1:58:18.640 X and uh, maybe even technology transfers you know, or 1:58:18.720 --> 1:58:22.000 something down the line which could be a game changer. Um, 1:58:22.320 --> 1:58:25.160 you need to have an education system. Like if you're 1:58:25.280 --> 1:58:29.280 a fan of the economist Torstin Veblen, he thought like 1:58:29.440 --> 1:58:32.400 in his mind he thought the economic development was ultimately 1:58:32.560 --> 1:58:36.320 from the human intellect and like everything was downstream of that. 1:58:37.200 --> 1:58:40.320 So like you need to have money to um, you 1:58:40.360 --> 1:58:42.120 can use your m M T money to create a 1:58:42.200 --> 1:58:45.680 basic education system and you can augment it with buying 1:58:45.880 --> 1:58:49.800 importing things that you can't yet make and using it 1:58:49.920 --> 1:58:52.800 to create like a university or something which can do 1:58:53.440 --> 1:58:58.080 R and D work. Um, you have to you have 1:58:58.200 --> 1:59:02.040 to find tools to get enough of the money that 1:59:02.160 --> 1:59:05.160 you can't just infinitely produce for X in order to 1:59:05.800 --> 1:59:10.280 augment what your society can produce beyond what initially could 1:59:11.000 --> 1:59:14.200 and show essentially that you, okay, I can make a 1:59:14.280 --> 1:59:19.560 better mouse trap like I. I don't need to. I 1:59:19.640 --> 1:59:24.360 don't need donations from well meaning imperial powers or something. 1:59:24.880 --> 1:59:27.680 We're building what we need in order to move up 1:59:27.720 --> 1:59:30.959 the value chain and then build out our productive capacity 1:59:31.720 --> 1:59:34.680 in such a way that, um, it doesn't leave anyone behind. 1:59:34.880 --> 1:59:38.360 Everyone is everyone's employed because we're doing the classic M 1:59:38.440 --> 1:59:40.680 M T stuff on the home front, such as a 1:59:40.800 --> 1:59:45.560 job guarantee, but we're also doing the international economic development 1:59:45.680 --> 1:59:51.520 stuff of assiduationally monitoring our foreign foreign currency reserves and 1:59:51.640 --> 1:59:54.280 then using them to import things that we cannot yet 1:59:54.360 --> 1:59:59.400 make but can make things internally and then have a 2:00:00.880 --> 2:00:04.440 a snowballing effect as far as being able to sell 2:00:04.680 --> 2:00:09.160 even higher value things which UM to our trade partners 2:00:09.560 --> 2:00:12.920 who are hopefully share our values of like democratic confederalism 2:00:13.080 --> 2:00:17.640 or whatever you whatever you're chosen guidelines are yeah, and 2:00:17.920 --> 2:00:22.040 this is something that like, this is something that that 2:00:22.120 --> 2:00:25.480 becomes very difficult in like the current market. You know, 2:00:25.760 --> 2:00:27.200 this is this is to some extent like why the 2:00:27.280 --> 2:00:29.360 Cold War went the way it did, right, which is 2:00:29.480 --> 2:00:32.800 that you know, once once you have the Zinosovie explant, 2:00:32.800 --> 2:00:34.640 and once you have like you have Chinese and Russian 2:00:34.640 --> 2:00:38.160 troops killing each other on the border um China, it 2:00:38.880 --> 2:00:41.440 like enters the situation where it's like, well, okay, so 2:00:42.320 --> 2:00:44.960 we still want to do economic developments, but we've lost 2:00:45.160 --> 2:00:46.960 the Soviet unions as a typology as a way to 2:00:47.000 --> 2:00:48.720 get to knowledgy transfers, and their solution to that was 2:00:48.760 --> 2:00:51.440 to ally with the U S. And this is like 2:00:53.880 --> 2:00:55.680 it works out for the Chinese economy. It is an 2:00:55.680 --> 2:00:59.760 apocal disaster for like literally everyone else on earth because 2:01:00.200 --> 2:01:02.480 it means that capitalism is the thing that wins the 2:01:02.560 --> 2:01:04.400 Cold War. And and this means that like you know, 2:01:04.480 --> 2:01:06.040 I mean like if you look if you look at 2:01:06.120 --> 2:01:10.440 how you know, like the things that China are doing 2:01:10.600 --> 2:01:12.440 in order to be able to get technology transfers for 2:01:12.480 --> 2:01:16.520 the US. It's like like there's so there there are 2:01:16.640 --> 2:01:20.760 joints like Chinese CIA like operations inside of China that 2:01:20.840 --> 2:01:23.000 are like monitoring Soviet missile site. So there's just like 2:01:23.400 --> 2:01:26.120 CIA app post just like in China that are just 2:01:26.400 --> 2:01:29.560 you know, doing spying. Like for for the U. S. Government. 2:01:29.760 --> 2:01:34.600 There's like they invade Vietnam, which is you know, and 2:01:34.640 --> 2:01:36.520 it's such as the invade neenomen's like they've made Vietnam 2:01:36.600 --> 2:01:38.600 and then they fight this like this really you know, 2:01:39.240 --> 2:01:41.240 the immediate war just last that long, but they fight 2:01:41.320 --> 2:01:43.520 this like horrible border war that goes on for like 2:01:43.600 --> 2:01:47.440 a decade that kills enormous numbers of people, and you know, 2:01:47.560 --> 2:01:49.320 and the end result of this is like yeah, like 2:01:49.400 --> 2:01:51.120 you know, trying to get the signalogy transfers and they 2:01:51.160 --> 2:01:55.960 developed economy, but everyone else on Earth, yeah, because is 2:01:56.040 --> 2:01:58.720 like everyone who's ever tried to be a labor organizer 2:01:58.880 --> 2:02:03.040 in like you know, and like how Salvador gets murdered 2:02:03.120 --> 2:02:07.840 by a bunch of fascists and every development econ is 2:02:07.960 --> 2:02:11.160 so fucking frustrating because every single step of the way, 2:02:11.800 --> 2:02:14.520 there's like there's like a really razor thin line between 2:02:14.680 --> 2:02:18.040 risk and reward at every step of the way. And 2:02:18.160 --> 2:02:22.720 so like imperial powers will dangle technology transfers or extended 2:02:22.760 --> 2:02:28.000 trade agreements on some favorable terms in exchange for allowing 2:02:28.080 --> 2:02:30.640 them to just like go to war with your neighbors, 2:02:30.840 --> 2:02:37.120 like or rope you into it, or or extract resources 2:02:37.160 --> 2:02:41.600 that would be value for you later in your development phases. Yeah. Actually, 2:02:41.720 --> 2:02:44.000 uh this leads to me, um, you know, going to 2:02:44.120 --> 2:02:47.320 our hypothetical here thinking about Vancouver Island, the People's Republic 2:02:47.400 --> 2:02:50.400 of Vancouver Island, and we can kind of talk about 2:02:50.440 --> 2:02:52.320 some of development traps because that's kind of what I'm 2:02:52.600 --> 2:02:55.360 was turning through my head right now because I'm looking 2:02:55.360 --> 2:02:58.360 at the Wikipedia page for Vancouver Island. Is that incredibly 2:02:58.400 --> 2:03:02.600 deep research, and so what they listen under the economy 2:03:02.800 --> 2:03:08.000 is there's a tech sector, logging, fishing, tourism, and food um. 2:03:08.440 --> 2:03:10.400 And so you know we're talked first about like you 2:03:10.440 --> 2:03:12.760 could like sell off like the yachts and the cars 2:03:12.840 --> 2:03:15.600 and stuff like that. Uh, and that's I don't even 2:03:15.600 --> 2:03:17.160 know if that counts as a sector of the economy 2:03:17.200 --> 2:03:22.640 at that level. That's a yeah, you can start sale. 2:03:24.120 --> 2:03:26.480 But you know, logging and fishing, those are those are 2:03:26.480 --> 2:03:29.960 pretty solid primary sector economies, you know, you know, to 2:03:30.760 --> 2:03:33.240 that describe the terminology, you know, they've got this. This 2:03:33.400 --> 2:03:35.520 is part of that hierarchy that Steve was talking about 2:03:35.560 --> 2:03:38.680 that you know, the chain of development, and a primary 2:03:38.760 --> 2:03:43.320 sector is like a basic extractive element of your economy 2:03:43.800 --> 2:03:49.879 a mine, uh, logging, phishing, food production, you know, basic goods. 2:03:50.320 --> 2:03:52.400 And then you know, you talk about a secondary development, 2:03:52.480 --> 2:03:54.720 which is like manufacturing in the territiary, which is you 2:03:54.760 --> 2:03:58.040 know services. Those are kind of your basic Those are 2:03:58.120 --> 2:04:00.120 usually considered like sectors of the economy, but in a 2:04:00.120 --> 2:04:03.680 way they kind of correspond to development um and they 2:04:03.760 --> 2:04:06.800 require different amounts of developments. And you know the thing 2:04:06.840 --> 2:04:11.200 about primaries that everybody needs those things, Like unless people 2:04:11.360 --> 2:04:14.280 just stop using wood for construction, which we are very 2:04:14.360 --> 2:04:16.520 far from doing. We still use a lot of wood 2:04:16.560 --> 2:04:19.440 for construction. Uh, your logging industry is going to have 2:04:19.520 --> 2:04:24.000 buyers um until people stop buying eating fish. Your fishing 2:04:24.040 --> 2:04:27.200 industry is going to have buyers. Yeah, up to a 2:04:27.400 --> 2:04:31.440 really ludicrously bottomless reserve. But you're gonna be stopped on 2:04:31.440 --> 2:04:34.800 that secondary industry until you have capital. Like I don't 2:04:34.840 --> 2:04:36.360 mean just like the sense of having a lot of money, 2:04:36.440 --> 2:04:40.320 but you know the right money, and well, you need capital. 2:04:40.400 --> 2:04:43.120 Production need capital, you need the machine, you need, you 2:04:43.160 --> 2:04:48.000 need major factories, you need your need yeah. Uh, and 2:04:48.520 --> 2:04:52.240 wealthy countries partly in order to maintain their powers they 2:04:52.520 --> 2:04:55.800 have they they want to be the only seller of 2:04:55.840 --> 2:04:58.280 capital kids. Yeah, and and they're gonna be very withholding 2:04:58.280 --> 2:05:01.880 about it. Like a really good example for right now, 2:05:02.040 --> 2:05:04.000 I like all of the inflation stuff going on, like 2:05:04.080 --> 2:05:09.040 the chip shortage. Yeah, so the machines that make the 2:05:09.200 --> 2:05:12.920 machines that make the chips, Holy sh it, those are 2:05:13.040 --> 2:05:15.960 like those are they only make like fifty of those 2:05:16.000 --> 2:05:20.600 a year? Yeah, and it's all two companies. Yeah, you know, 2:05:21.920 --> 2:05:23.480 the thing with the thing with the chip shortage. Right. 2:05:23.480 --> 2:05:26.760 It's also like so if you can be like the 2:05:26.920 --> 2:05:28.480 people who do that, that gives you a lot of 2:05:28.560 --> 2:05:31.560 economic power. Like this is this is one of Taiwan's things, right, 2:05:31.640 --> 2:05:33.560 which is that like you know, it's like, okay, so 2:05:33.600 --> 2:05:35.600 why hasn't Taiwan just sort of been bowled over by 2:05:35.880 --> 2:05:37.920 by China? And like, I mean, there's a lot of 2:05:38.000 --> 2:05:40.160 sort of geopolitical reasons for them. It's also partly it's 2:05:40.200 --> 2:05:42.680 just that like, yeah, like Taiwan has this enormous chipmaking 2:05:42.760 --> 2:05:46.480 industry and it's incredibly advanced, and you know, it has 2:05:46.600 --> 2:05:49.000 like you know this this is I think and everything 2:05:49.080 --> 2:05:51.120 that that that's a real problem for sort of revelation 2:05:51.280 --> 2:05:54.200 society doing this is that like yeah, like Taiwan's chip 2:05:54.320 --> 2:06:00.240 making economy, like it's not like people like fall in 2:06:00.360 --> 2:06:04.000 like vats of chemicals like a lot, like there's a 2:06:04.080 --> 2:06:06.000 lot of there's a lot like just horrible sort of 2:06:06.080 --> 2:06:08.000 labor application. And then this comes back to even you're 2:06:08.000 --> 2:06:10.080 sort of like like you know, if you're talking about 2:06:10.080 --> 2:06:14.240 your your sort of primary primary sector stuff in the economy, 2:06:14.280 --> 2:06:16.400 which is that like okay, well yeah, I mean like 2:06:16.480 --> 2:06:18.160 oils particularly example of this, but like you know, same 2:06:18.200 --> 2:06:20.080 with timber, and same same with fishes, like these are 2:06:20.120 --> 2:06:24.880 extractive industries, and this becomes a real problem for a 2:06:25.000 --> 2:06:27.600 lot of your sort of like newly revolutionary developing societies 2:06:27.680 --> 2:06:30.960 because you get this tension between um like and you 2:06:31.080 --> 2:06:33.320 see this a lot in Latin America's like this is 2:06:33.360 --> 2:06:35.480 there's a huge tension like this Simplivia for example, he 2:06:35.480 --> 2:06:37.880 se as an Ecuador two where like you have different 2:06:37.920 --> 2:06:40.840 factions of do you have different factors of the political 2:06:40.880 --> 2:06:42.920 movements where you have people who are like okay, yeah, 2:06:43.000 --> 2:06:46.080 I'm I'm okay with just like you know, building these 2:06:46.160 --> 2:06:49.560 highways through indigenous land or just like doing massy forestation 2:06:49.840 --> 2:06:53.240 or like doing doing open pit mining, and those people 2:06:53.280 --> 2:06:55.040 will be like, those people will be leftist right there. 2:06:55.200 --> 2:06:56.480 People are like, Okay, well we need to do this 2:06:56.560 --> 2:06:58.160 because we need to like you know, this is an 2:06:58.200 --> 2:06:59.960 antipoverty measure. We have to be at the value chain, 2:07:00.080 --> 2:07:02.400 we have to increase your production. But then you know 2:07:02.520 --> 2:07:06.160 you have the indigenous people who's like, homes these are right, Yeah, yeah, 2:07:06.520 --> 2:07:10.680 you can rationalize, yeah, the intellectual backing. Yeah, and like 2:07:10.720 --> 2:07:12.960 and this this happens like in in China too. There's 2:07:13.000 --> 2:07:16.360 like like a lot of the interstation has been absolutely devastating, 2:07:16.520 --> 2:07:19.560 like and and and this this becomes a real like 2:07:19.880 --> 2:07:23.880 the fact that you need for REX becomes this like 2:07:24.200 --> 2:07:28.040 incredible trap that that you you sink into because it's like, 2:07:28.800 --> 2:07:31.480 on the one hand, like, yeah, like there are resources 2:07:32.520 --> 2:07:34.720 that you need in order to have a function anxiety, 2:07:34.800 --> 2:07:37.080 but it's also that that you can't get in your territory. 2:07:37.120 --> 2:07:40.320 But also like the cost of getting that for REX 2:07:40.440 --> 2:07:43.680 is enormous and and a lot of times it's it's 2:07:43.720 --> 2:07:47.120 it's it's a it's something that just simply destroys the 2:07:47.120 --> 2:07:49.760 revolutionary project. Well it hit me when I looked at 2:07:49.800 --> 2:07:55.400 this list of Vancouver's economic sectors was uh, you know, 2:07:55.480 --> 2:07:57.520 tourism being listed among the big ones in my mind 2:07:57.560 --> 2:08:01.680 immediately into Cuba two pre revolution, precastro Cuba, and your 2:08:01.720 --> 2:08:04.600 precast Cuba has all these things going for it. Off 2:08:05.080 --> 2:08:07.240 when you're when you're looking at from like a developmental standpoint, 2:08:07.240 --> 2:08:09.760 you know, it's got this like very good productive base 2:08:10.200 --> 2:08:15.200 of primary resources like sugar. Uh. It has great relations 2:08:15.240 --> 2:08:20.920 with the United States of America, particularly through the mafia. Uh. Yeah, wonderful, right, 2:08:21.640 --> 2:08:26.200 it has, Uh, the tourism industry is very successful. It's 2:08:26.240 --> 2:08:29.480 producing manufactured cigar, so it even has a secondary industry bridge, 2:08:30.040 --> 2:08:33.760 but is still absolutely failing to develop in a way 2:08:33.800 --> 2:08:36.760 that is meaningful for the people living in Cuba. You know, 2:08:36.960 --> 2:08:41.240 pre pre castro Cuba was a nightmare for most people. Uh. 2:08:41.680 --> 2:08:45.880 And that's you know that, that's like Steve said, you know, 2:08:45.960 --> 2:08:50.520 there's this razor thin thing between risk and reward. And 2:08:51.640 --> 2:08:53.800 during that, you know, during the fourties and fifties in Cuba, 2:08:54.680 --> 2:08:56.480 it was just it just made so much sense to 2:08:56.600 --> 2:09:03.640 just stick with this impoverty, extractive tourists, heavy mafia friendly economy. 2:09:03.800 --> 2:09:06.000 And yeah they were friends with the US. They could 2:09:06.000 --> 2:09:10.960 have gone technology transfers in principle, but were they actually 2:09:11.000 --> 2:09:13.920 going to h And I's something we have to think 2:09:13.920 --> 2:09:16.400 about with our our people's republic of Vancouver Island, is 2:09:16.440 --> 2:09:18.840 you know, yeah, like people are going to want our logs, 2:09:18.880 --> 2:09:21.280 people are gonna want our fishing. American tourists are going 2:09:21.320 --> 2:09:24.000 to come here and go whale watching and that's gonna 2:09:24.120 --> 2:09:25.680 bring in forex. But are we gonna be able to 2:09:25.800 --> 2:09:30.040 like leverage that and how leg Yeah? Yeah, And I 2:09:30.160 --> 2:09:32.200 kind of want to move the conversation to like I 2:09:32.280 --> 2:09:35.000 think people might be listening and saying like, Okay, yeah, 2:09:35.000 --> 2:09:36.880 I can see why far actually be important, but like, 2:09:37.120 --> 2:09:41.760 what are the specific ways in which we can acquire 2:09:41.840 --> 2:09:44.920 it but also manage it? And it's like, okay, well 2:09:46.600 --> 2:09:54.520 without which we want without tell being socialists who want democracy? Um, okay, 2:09:55.040 --> 2:09:59.560 So I think if we're I'm I'm picturing some sort 2:09:59.560 --> 2:10:03.000 of a sim Belie structure taking shape because I'm a 2:10:03.080 --> 2:10:09.720 lipsock Libertrian socialist. Um and uh it could be something else, 2:10:09.960 --> 2:10:13.960 but any case, Uh, I think they should appoint fifty 2:10:14.120 --> 2:10:16.160 or so people, some of them experts, some of them 2:10:16.240 --> 2:10:22.320 not two examine. They should do a thorough economic analysis 2:10:22.360 --> 2:10:25.720 of the entire island, and you should do it on 2:10:25.800 --> 2:10:29.360 the basis of here are the assets we have, Here's 2:10:29.360 --> 2:10:32.080 where we want to go in terms of assets, how 2:10:32.120 --> 2:10:34.840 do we get from here to there? And one of 2:10:34.920 --> 2:10:36.760 the assets that you have is, okay, we have so 2:10:36.880 --> 2:10:39.280 many U S dollars, we have so many Canadian dollars, 2:10:39.720 --> 2:10:43.320 we have reserve balances. So we need to import things. 2:10:44.320 --> 2:10:47.000 We can make some of it ourselves. We need to 2:10:47.080 --> 2:10:50.440 buy the rest of it. We can't buy all of 2:10:50.520 --> 2:10:53.240 it now. We need to cash flow some of this. 2:10:53.640 --> 2:10:58.440 We need to We need to do export led growth. 2:10:59.080 --> 2:11:02.600 As the developed the classic development ECON people would say, 2:11:03.000 --> 2:11:06.200 where we say, we have some industries where we can 2:11:07.280 --> 2:11:10.240 gradually and consistently ramp up to the point that they 2:11:10.320 --> 2:11:12.640 give They give us the types of money which we 2:11:12.760 --> 2:11:16.120 need in order to input capital goods. The machines that 2:11:16.160 --> 2:11:21.480 build machines two, buy them, learn how to use them 2:11:22.520 --> 2:11:27.520 and maintain them, and then build more ourselves. Ideally and 2:11:27.840 --> 2:11:31.880 over the course of say, basically, I'm basically suggesting that 2:11:32.080 --> 2:11:37.120 Vancouver Island should have a ten year plan. They should 2:11:37.120 --> 2:11:40.640 have a ten year plan for further economic development, and 2:11:41.120 --> 2:11:45.640 it should be as democratically decided upon as possible within 2:11:45.720 --> 2:11:48.160 the limits of like Okay, there's some experts which will 2:11:48.200 --> 2:11:52.720 obviously be needed and not everyone can do that. But um, 2:11:53.560 --> 2:11:57.960 whatever assembly structure you have should be given oversight ultimately 2:11:59.080 --> 2:12:03.120 and you should say, um, just be really frank with it, 2:12:03.320 --> 2:12:07.800 Like we have these are biophysical resources. Now in ten 2:12:07.920 --> 2:12:11.440 years they should be this in order to get there, 2:12:11.560 --> 2:12:14.160 each year, these things need to happen. We have to 2:12:14.200 --> 2:12:17.520 have this much foreign currency, we have to have this 2:12:17.760 --> 2:12:22.800 many workers involved in this industry. Um, we can change 2:12:22.840 --> 2:12:25.800 things along the way, but we're constrained by these factors 2:12:26.480 --> 2:12:31.680 where like we need trade partners, we need uh two 2:12:33.160 --> 2:12:36.960 reverse engineers, some technology that we've acquired or something in 2:12:37.160 --> 2:12:40.960 order to to educate ourselves on how to create chips 2:12:41.080 --> 2:12:46.360 or something in the future. UM yeah, there's like there 2:12:46.360 --> 2:12:50.080 should be like an extremely vigorous discussion of what assets 2:12:50.120 --> 2:12:52.560 do we have, what do we need, what's our goal 2:12:53.240 --> 2:12:56.920 and then thread together a development plan from there and 2:12:57.040 --> 2:12:59.880 then use your m m T money to marshal the 2:13:00.040 --> 2:13:02.880 resources that you currently have and that you need for 2:13:03.000 --> 2:13:08.200 like the next year, say domestically, while monitoring and augmenting 2:13:08.880 --> 2:13:14.240 your foreign currency reserves and um, using the tools of 2:13:14.440 --> 2:13:19.040 monetary policy to safeguard those reserves and economize on them 2:13:19.240 --> 2:13:22.160 in order to import what you can't yet make so 2:13:22.240 --> 2:13:25.200 that you can make it in the future. I think 2:13:25.240 --> 2:13:28.240 the thing that we should learn from the fact that 2:13:28.360 --> 2:13:31.960 like a lot of these projects haven't worked is well, 2:13:32.000 --> 2:13:34.480 I think it's twofold. One is that you have okay, 2:13:34.520 --> 2:13:40.080 there there there's constant sort of like there's traps you 2:13:40.160 --> 2:13:42.640 have to avoid that have to do with like, for example, 2:13:42.720 --> 2:13:45.680 like who actually has access to the forex because this 2:13:45.840 --> 2:13:47.560 is what this is a way that like you know, 2:13:47.680 --> 2:13:51.200 and also like because it's it's very very easy to 2:13:51.280 --> 2:13:54.520 like access to sort of like incidentally redeveloped ruling classes 2:13:54.560 --> 2:13:56.400 when you're trying to do playing technology stuff and when 2:13:56.400 --> 2:13:58.800 you're trying when you're dealing with enormous amounts of foreign currency, 2:14:00.040 --> 2:14:02.440 and this is a problem and you know. And in 2:14:02.560 --> 2:14:04.440 the second problem has to do with sort of like 2:14:06.360 --> 2:14:08.360 how how how do you make sure that your economy 2:14:08.480 --> 2:14:12.040 essentially doesn't end up as a resource colony and this 2:14:12.200 --> 2:14:13.760 has this has other components and you know, and I 2:14:13.840 --> 2:14:16.600 think I think this is something that like like there 2:14:16.760 --> 2:14:19.120 is a lot that can be done if you control 2:14:19.440 --> 2:14:24.480 like a regid of territory but there's there's political limits 2:14:24.520 --> 2:14:26.120 on it. And the political limits have to do with 2:14:27.240 --> 2:14:30.960 you know, who actually controls the sort of like vast 2:14:31.000 --> 2:14:35.560 majority of resources and technology. And the only way to 2:14:35.800 --> 2:14:38.400 really deal with that is that like, you know, you 2:14:38.520 --> 2:14:41.480 can't you can't sort of have like you if if 2:14:41.560 --> 2:14:43.839 if you want to actually have sort of long term stability, 2:14:43.880 --> 2:14:46.120 you can't just have your sort of like your your 2:14:46.280 --> 2:14:49.120 like libertary and social counsels in one country. I guess 2:14:49.160 --> 2:14:50.800 it's a it's a thing that has to like keep 2:14:50.880 --> 2:14:54.520 moving and keep spreading because otherwise it becomes it becomes 2:14:54.560 --> 2:14:58.000 just increasingly difficult, and you come under increasing pressures, you know, 2:14:58.280 --> 2:15:00.600 for you know, in order to do things that you 2:15:00.840 --> 2:15:02.040 be that you need to do in order to make 2:15:02.040 --> 2:15:03.800 sure people don't starve, in order to make sure that 2:15:03.960 --> 2:15:06.240 people have educations, to make sure that people you know, 2:15:06.280 --> 2:15:08.160 are able to sort of live with their lives, and 2:15:08.200 --> 2:15:09.600 also like in order to make sure that you don't 2:15:09.640 --> 2:15:12.960 just annihilate the annihilate the entire environment doing this, because 2:15:12.960 --> 2:15:15.160 that's something that happens a lot when in these developmental 2:15:15.320 --> 2:15:19.200 estates is that like, you know, you get you you 2:15:19.280 --> 2:15:21.240 know you you you get groups who are like come 2:15:21.280 --> 2:15:23.120 in the power and are like, well, okay, we're like 2:15:23.120 --> 2:15:25.080 we're gonna be an ecological regime, and then you know, 2:15:25.400 --> 2:15:27.000 they wind up having to they wind up doing oil 2:15:27.040 --> 2:15:31.560 extraction and like well prepit mining, because that's you know, 2:15:31.640 --> 2:15:34.760 that that's the easiest way to to get money. And 2:15:34.840 --> 2:15:41.800 I think I think, like I I think it's it's 2:15:41.920 --> 2:15:44.920 valuable that like, these are things that if you're serious 2:15:44.920 --> 2:15:48.320 about taking power, you have to think about. But I 2:15:48.520 --> 2:15:51.120 also think it's it's important to keep in mind just 2:15:52.440 --> 2:15:56.720 the the inherent limits that you have if you're just 2:15:56.800 --> 2:16:00.440 sort of if you're if you're completely isolated, like if 2:16:00.480 --> 2:16:02.680 you're a completely isolated referee street movement in one place, 2:16:02.720 --> 2:16:04.680 it doesn't have people where that you can you know, 2:16:05.400 --> 2:16:08.880 give stuff to and move stuff around between. Yeah, I mean, 2:16:08.960 --> 2:16:11.320 it's it's it's always been kind. I mean, that's that's 2:16:11.360 --> 2:16:14.080 been like a kind of inevitable thing that like, you know, 2:16:14.840 --> 2:16:19.240 there are there are communes in my extended family. You know, 2:16:19.280 --> 2:16:22.440 I've got members of my family who live on you know, 2:16:22.920 --> 2:16:29.640 those little farm communes, and they're not fully economically independent. Um, 2:16:29.760 --> 2:16:31.640 and I'm sure that we could find people who would 2:16:31.640 --> 2:16:33.200 be willing to say, oh, you know this is like, 2:16:33.920 --> 2:16:36.480 this is totally fake. This is not a real commune 2:16:36.520 --> 2:16:41.280 because they you know sell uh, you know, sell sunflower 2:16:41.360 --> 2:16:46.680 seeds at the farmers market and stuff. Uh. And that's 2:16:46.920 --> 2:16:49.200 kind of the unfortunate. That's kind of like the tough 2:16:49.280 --> 2:16:57.920 reality that unless you managed to create a truly global revolution, 2:16:57.959 --> 2:16:59.680 as I said, unlet's until you've got like two thirds 2:16:59.720 --> 2:17:04.400 of the population under your umbrella. Uh, you're going to 2:17:04.440 --> 2:17:07.000 have foreign relations and you're going to have foreign trade, 2:17:08.400 --> 2:17:12.520 which is going to uh, it's going to be it's 2:17:12.520 --> 2:17:14.520 going to be difficult to manage. You know, you're going 2:17:14.600 --> 2:17:15.840 to have to be both. You're going to have to 2:17:15.920 --> 2:17:18.400 have like a you know, a diplomatic core. That's something 2:17:18.440 --> 2:17:20.920 we're barely mentioning here, but like we're gonna need to 2:17:21.000 --> 2:17:23.840 have diplomats coming out of this council if we're talking 2:17:23.879 --> 2:17:27.480 about them having relations with the US and Canada. Uh, 2:17:27.640 --> 2:17:29.760 and you're negotiating these trade deals. You know, these trade 2:17:29.840 --> 2:17:33.560 deals don't happen out of nowhere. Um. And you know, 2:17:33.640 --> 2:17:35.800 we kind of brushed this aside, but it's a it's 2:17:35.800 --> 2:17:37.720 a bit of as a bit of a misperception that 2:17:37.760 --> 2:17:42.560 people tend to have that the United States is pro 2:17:42.840 --> 2:17:45.680 free trade in like an extreme sense that like any 2:17:45.720 --> 2:17:48.080 trade of the United States is done without any tariffs. 2:17:48.440 --> 2:17:53.160 Oh dead, No, I don't think that you if you 2:17:53.320 --> 2:17:56.760 believe that without having done a lot of research, I 2:17:56.840 --> 2:17:58.880 do not think that that is an absurd thing to believe, 2:17:59.040 --> 2:18:04.040 because that is the propaganda that is passed along in 2:18:04.240 --> 2:18:09.720 common knowledge. A very quick examination of how trade works 2:18:09.800 --> 2:18:13.800 between international actors will reveal that there are thousands and 2:18:13.879 --> 2:18:16.320 thousands and thousands of tariffs active all the time in 2:18:16.480 --> 2:18:19.720 every trade to Yeah, and like the like the big 2:18:19.800 --> 2:18:22.680 one with the US agricultural subsidies, which are just it 2:18:22.840 --> 2:18:25.040 is it is it is illegal to have them. We 2:18:25.200 --> 2:18:28.920 have like just in just like billions and billions of 2:18:28.920 --> 2:18:33.080 billions of dollars agricultural subsidies that have producing cheap food. 2:18:33.200 --> 2:18:35.280 That's like we're not even good at making it. Like 2:18:35.480 --> 2:18:38.960 it's it's a complete disaster. It Let mean this like this, 2:18:39.160 --> 2:18:42.280 this is just single handedly annihilated the economies of like 2:18:42.640 --> 2:18:44.960 enormous swass of the globe because because no one can 2:18:45.000 --> 2:18:47.080 compete with withoth American agri culture subsidies. And it's you know, 2:18:47.200 --> 2:18:48.840 and and but like when when you join the free 2:18:48.879 --> 2:18:50.960 trade system, like that's one of the carve outs. That 2:18:51.080 --> 2:18:52.680 was that's that's that's in the w t O is 2:18:52.760 --> 2:18:55.760 you can't have uh subsidies for for your culture programs 2:18:55.920 --> 2:18:59.520 except for the US and it's it's great and I 2:18:59.600 --> 2:19:01.680 mean food one dies. Well, there's all sorts of like 2:19:01.760 --> 2:19:05.200 weird technical ways that you can create pseudo subsidies, you know. Uh. 2:19:05.640 --> 2:19:10.280 You know, Italy very famously has a price floor on wine. Uh. 2:19:10.520 --> 2:19:13.800 And this means that you know, if you if you 2:19:13.879 --> 2:19:17.120 make a bottle of wine that nobody would buy for 2:19:17.200 --> 2:19:19.280 the minimum price, the government will buy it off of 2:19:19.320 --> 2:19:21.680 you for that price. And so there there are wineries 2:19:21.680 --> 2:19:24.040 in Italy that just produced wine at such a this 2:19:24.200 --> 2:19:26.080 so bad nobody would buy nobody you would have to 2:19:26.120 --> 2:19:29.039 pay people to drink it. But the government just buys 2:19:29.080 --> 2:19:31.400 it at this minimum set price and then throws it 2:19:31.520 --> 2:19:35.000 enough in a giant Olympic swimming pool that uh to 2:19:35.120 --> 2:19:40.200 go rot uh And like there are yeah, there there there. 2:19:40.280 --> 2:19:43.560 The trade is, you know, there's a lot more complex. 2:19:44.200 --> 2:19:46.440 The free trade is kind of a meth at the 2:19:46.480 --> 2:19:52.520 international level. Uh. It is at it's at the most cynical. 2:19:52.720 --> 2:19:56.000 Free trade as a doctrine is a cudgel used by 2:19:56.080 --> 2:19:58.880 more powerful countries that they impose that you have to 2:19:58.920 --> 2:20:01.280 do free trade with um and that they get to 2:20:01.320 --> 2:20:05.280 do protract and trade with you. Well, it's a it's well, firstly, 2:20:05.360 --> 2:20:09.120 like you mentioned, it's a myth. And historically speaking, we 2:20:09.280 --> 2:20:13.200 had like, we had infant industries in this country that 2:20:13.320 --> 2:20:18.440 we're highly protected from the verily earliest days through most 2:20:18.520 --> 2:20:21.480 of the nineteenth century and into this one century, and 2:20:21.680 --> 2:20:26.199 we had uh, we had expert lead growth from infant 2:20:26.280 --> 2:20:30.959 lead for infant industries in the US. And that's precisely 2:20:31.080 --> 2:20:34.200 the opposite advice we now turn around and give via 2:20:34.480 --> 2:20:38.600 our imperial like apparatus from the I m F and 2:20:38.680 --> 2:20:42.920 the World Bank to developing counts and like countries. Countries 2:20:43.120 --> 2:20:45.880 that that examined what the US was telling them to 2:20:45.959 --> 2:20:48.920 do and did the opposite. Are the ones that succeeded. Yes, 2:20:49.200 --> 2:20:53.000 like South Korea said no, funk that, and there they 2:20:53.040 --> 2:20:55.760 went up the value chain and they did all of 2:20:55.800 --> 2:20:59.400 the things that we said Vancouver Island should do basically, yeah, 2:20:59.400 --> 2:21:01.720 except except not being evil. They did not do that. 2:21:02.160 --> 2:21:05.440 They were evil. They were evil for a time, and 2:21:05.480 --> 2:21:08.880 they were dictatorial, but in terms of their economic development 2:21:08.959 --> 2:21:11.840 plan divorced from political reality, which is probably naive of 2:21:11.920 --> 2:21:14.640 me to say, um, they took the opposite advice of 2:21:14.680 --> 2:21:18.080 the I m F in terms of that narrow scope. Well, yeah, 2:21:18.360 --> 2:21:20.360 I think the other thing that's kind of important here 2:21:20.400 --> 2:21:21.960 that I haven't really touched on yet, is it, like 2:21:22.800 --> 2:21:24.200 so part part of part of what was going on 2:21:24.320 --> 2:21:26.480 with with South Korea's economy is that South Korea's economy 2:21:26.560 --> 2:21:29.280 was was a war economy, and it was a war 2:21:29.320 --> 2:21:31.360 economy designed to build I mean, originally just it was 2:21:31.440 --> 2:21:33.800 it was war economy because they were finding a war, right, 2:21:33.879 --> 2:21:36.320 But then it became this i mean ess central access 2:21:36.320 --> 2:21:38.040 of sort of the corruction of the Korean War, and 2:21:38.080 --> 2:21:41.880 that it became this access that like it became a 2:21:42.000 --> 2:21:44.400 huge part of the American sort of arms industry in 2:21:44.560 --> 2:21:46.600 in Vietnam. And this is the sending that Japan has 2:21:46.640 --> 2:21:49.320 this too, where both these economies are like a huge 2:21:49.360 --> 2:21:50.920 part of the reason why they're able to develop is 2:21:50.959 --> 2:21:53.760 because they get enormous amounts of just money and the 2:21:54.080 --> 2:21:56.880 guaranteed contract and stuff like that from American military development. 2:21:56.920 --> 2:21:58.880 And this is a this is another really big problem 2:21:59.600 --> 2:22:03.160 for like you're sort of free state that like you've 2:22:03.200 --> 2:22:05.400 created like whatever you're sort of like Council Republic, you're 2:22:05.440 --> 2:22:08.720 like if on the zone, you're like indigenous confederation. Is 2:22:08.800 --> 2:22:14.640 that like you need weapons and the people who make 2:22:14.720 --> 2:22:19.640 guns are like the US and Russia And this is 2:22:19.680 --> 2:22:21.320 a really you know and and you know, we've we've 2:22:21.360 --> 2:22:25.080 been talking on this show about about producing like three 2:22:25.160 --> 2:22:28.600 D point weapons, but I mean, you know, in terms 2:22:28.640 --> 2:22:31.360 of things like you know, you're like artillery, right, like 2:22:31.840 --> 2:22:33.680 k of your mortars and like things like that, were like, 2:22:33.760 --> 2:22:35.800 you know, you you can't. You can't three D prints 2:22:35.959 --> 2:22:39.920 the best of my knowledge, And I'm like ent sure 2:22:39.920 --> 2:22:43.040 about this that like unless you had extremely advanced facilities, 2:22:43.040 --> 2:22:44.920 and even then it's not clear. Like I I like, 2:22:45.879 --> 2:22:47.640 I don't think anyone on Earth has ever pred three 2:22:47.680 --> 2:22:50.680 D printed like an anti aircraft rocket, like you can 2:22:50.720 --> 2:22:52.640 you can you know, you can't make you can't make stingers, 2:22:52.680 --> 2:22:54.039 you can't make man pads. You can't make like anti 2:22:54.080 --> 2:22:57.120 tank anti aircraft weapons. Not to get too much into it, 2:22:57.240 --> 2:23:00.280 but like the way in which Ukraine is fighting like 2:23:00.440 --> 2:23:05.080 Russian tanks and it's very specifics is kind of encouraging. Actually, yeah, 2:23:05.160 --> 2:23:08.280 but like because you feel like the like specific yeah, 2:23:08.320 --> 2:23:10.360 I mean there's only a few companies for making the 2:23:10.400 --> 2:23:13.920 components for these things. Yeah, it's a problem. And that's 2:23:13.959 --> 2:23:18.720 that's like the personnel launched the in law or whatever things. Yeah, 2:23:18.840 --> 2:23:21.360 like the anti taking and takers like if you can 2:23:21.440 --> 2:23:24.840 get them, they're effective and they do they do stuffing 2:23:26.400 --> 2:23:29.200 from by the US or the UK. Yeah, yeah, and 2:23:29.320 --> 2:23:31.760 that's that's that's a huge problem if you're you know, 2:23:32.040 --> 2:23:35.280 not trying to like be a political colony of these 2:23:35.280 --> 2:23:37.240 two things. And and this this is another trap that 2:23:37.360 --> 2:23:40.200 you see, like you see did Cares especially falling into, 2:23:40.280 --> 2:23:42.880 which is that that they you know, Okay, so like 2:23:42.920 --> 2:23:44.880 on the one hand, yeah, you do need weapons, right, 2:23:44.959 --> 2:23:47.360 like you you need you need some kind of military complex, 2:23:47.560 --> 2:23:49.800 and you need arms order to make sure that like 2:23:50.520 --> 2:23:52.560 you know, you're not like the US doesn't rull tanks 2:23:52.600 --> 2:23:56.240 across the border. But simultaneously, like there's there's a thing 2:23:56.320 --> 2:23:59.000 that happens a lot with this is happticularly with Petro States, 2:23:59.040 --> 2:24:02.880 where you know, okay, so the the the the US 2:24:03.000 --> 2:24:05.040 is like, okay, so we need this oil, right, and 2:24:05.280 --> 2:24:06.400 how how do you how do you deal with the 2:24:06.440 --> 2:24:08.120 sort of balance payments ephas And the answer is we 2:24:08.160 --> 2:24:10.840 just sell them like a hundred billion tanks and we 2:24:11.000 --> 2:24:12.920 just like we just like dump f thirty fives on them, 2:24:13.640 --> 2:24:15.560 and you can get into these scenarios where like you 2:24:15.680 --> 2:24:18.560 get these like because I mean, the problem with weapons, 2:24:18.640 --> 2:24:19.920 right it is like okay, so you need them to survive, 2:24:19.959 --> 2:24:22.200 but they also they don't produce anything, right, in fact 2:24:22.240 --> 2:24:24.160 that they're sort of they're sort of net economic negatives 2:24:24.160 --> 2:24:25.720 because the only thing you could do with a gun 2:24:26.040 --> 2:24:27.760 is I mean, I guess you could technically hunt, but 2:24:27.840 --> 2:24:29.720 like you know that the thing you're doing with the 2:24:29.760 --> 2:24:32.760 weapon is destroying value. Yeah yeah. And I mean and 2:24:32.920 --> 2:24:36.000 then they were crying maintenance. Yeah yeah, Like these things 2:24:36.040 --> 2:24:39.080 are substantial net negatives. Yeah, and and and you know, 2:24:39.120 --> 2:24:41.400 and and countries get sucked into these traps. Were like 2:24:42.200 --> 2:24:44.960 you know, okay, we're just gonna keep buying American weapons 2:24:45.080 --> 2:24:47.879 because of security or like uh we we we want 2:24:47.920 --> 2:24:49.920 to invade some other country. You're like, well, you know, 2:24:49.959 --> 2:24:51.920 and you see this so hew weaponry to like back 2:24:51.920 --> 2:24:53.720 back when that was the thing and today modern Russian 2:24:53.760 --> 2:24:56.120 trap wheny where it's like you can you can get 2:24:56.240 --> 2:24:58.560 funneled into these traps were like the ruling class of 2:24:58.640 --> 2:25:01.160 your society just decides it's the thing that it wants 2:25:01.200 --> 2:25:03.800 to spend his four X on his weapons, and you 2:25:03.920 --> 2:25:06.280 have to be very very like you have to be 2:25:06.520 --> 2:25:08.240 you know, and this is the thing that happens like 2:25:10.400 --> 2:25:12.880 like Evner Hoax for example, famously like makes just a 2:25:12.920 --> 2:25:16.039 bunch of bunkers, right and like militarized society and it's like, well, 2:25:17.000 --> 2:25:19.480 you know, part of this is just Hoax being extremely weird, 2:25:19.560 --> 2:25:25.520 but like, yeah, you have to be very careful when 2:25:25.560 --> 2:25:28.360 your society that is genuinely under threat that you're not 2:25:28.600 --> 2:25:32.480 sort of like just throwing all of your resources into 2:25:32.959 --> 2:25:35.520 into stuff like that where you know, it doesn't it 2:25:35.520 --> 2:25:38.440 doesn't pre us anything, but you know, and yeah, also 2:25:38.480 --> 2:25:41.720 I mean this is it is a need like like 2:25:42.280 --> 2:25:48.280 whatever the Vancouver Economic Planning whatever group should like one 2:25:48.400 --> 2:25:52.119 of one of the objectives would frank would be military 2:25:52.480 --> 2:25:56.240 of course, Yeah, um you need to. I don't know 2:25:56.320 --> 2:25:58.200 if you could get your hands on in laws or 2:25:58.280 --> 2:26:02.720 man pads or anything like that, but you, um, I 2:26:02.800 --> 2:26:07.240 think you would be foolish frankly not too distribute and 2:26:07.320 --> 2:26:11.960 train on weapons and stuff like that. Yeah, and that yeah, yeah, 2:26:12.000 --> 2:26:13.200 like I think I think like, yeah, it's like you 2:26:13.280 --> 2:26:14.280 have to use some of it for that and it 2:26:14.400 --> 2:26:16.520 sucks because this is something that like this, this sucks 2:26:16.520 --> 2:26:22.280 you into the arms complex, right, Yeah, Rose is using 2:26:22.520 --> 2:26:30.000 its oil revenues um to fund its expenditure almost is 2:26:30.760 --> 2:26:33.800 at least like in the last time I checked, was 2:26:34.840 --> 2:26:39.160 to defense forces. Yeah, and like and a lot of that, 2:26:39.360 --> 2:26:44.560 a lot of that came from dollars, euros and turkishly 2:26:44.680 --> 2:26:48.640 right that they required to oil. Yeah, and like this 2:26:48.800 --> 2:26:50.120 and this is the thing that like, yeah, this, this 2:26:50.200 --> 2:26:51.720 is this is a problem if you're into your revolution 2:26:51.800 --> 2:26:54.040 society surrounding people who just literally want to murder you, 2:26:54.480 --> 2:26:56.360 or it's like stuff like this winds up happening and 2:26:56.400 --> 2:26:59.000 you wind it like I don't blame them, Yeah, it's 2:26:59.000 --> 2:27:04.680 like it's obviously it's like reality. Yeah, And I think 2:27:04.720 --> 2:27:06.680 that's a you know that that that's a good example 2:27:06.760 --> 2:27:09.680 of like what happens if the revolution doesn't spread and 2:27:09.760 --> 2:27:11.760 if you get sort of like you get isolated, contained 2:27:11.800 --> 2:27:13.960 by imperial powers who just want to murder to you, 2:27:14.600 --> 2:27:19.720 is that you wind up, like you basically you want, 2:27:19.760 --> 2:27:22.600 you wind up fighting an endless war against both the 2:27:22.640 --> 2:27:24.800 proxy forces and the real forces of RBS that are 2:27:24.840 --> 2:27:28.440 significantly large and more powerful than you. And yeah, and 2:27:28.480 --> 2:27:30.120 there's a lot of times there's not much you can 2:27:30.160 --> 2:27:32.600 do about it. But it's like I think, you know, 2:27:32.720 --> 2:27:35.039 in terms of like like in the school of high principle, 2:27:35.120 --> 2:27:37.360 like this is why internationalism is important. I mean yeah, 2:27:37.360 --> 2:27:39.560 And of course obviously the other answer is, you know, 2:27:39.640 --> 2:27:42.880 selling out on the revolution and you know, we we we. 2:27:43.640 --> 2:27:45.640 You know that there's the example that people didn't think 2:27:45.640 --> 2:27:48.560 about of Serritza. You know, Sursa gets elected on all 2:27:48.600 --> 2:27:50.920 these like radical promises for Greece and then just doesn't 2:27:50.920 --> 2:27:53.200 do any of them. Um. And then you can look 2:27:53.240 --> 2:27:57.160 at say Nepal, and you know, the communist one in Nepal, 2:27:57.480 --> 2:28:01.120 and then they establish a government that's functionally you know, 2:28:01.680 --> 2:28:04.920 it's a liberal government. My my, my, my. My favorite 2:28:05.000 --> 2:28:08.880 Nepal fact is that, Okay, so Nepol has like seventeen 2:28:09.000 --> 2:28:11.840 different like Maoist factions, but the guy ahead of of 2:28:12.080 --> 2:28:15.800 the of the largest Maoist faction, uh yeah, I think 2:28:15.800 --> 2:28:17.920 it's him. Is he's the one who now lives in 2:28:18.040 --> 2:28:19.600 the mansion of the guy who used to be the 2:28:19.680 --> 2:28:25.160 Nepalese head of security. And it's like, uh, we've well 2:28:25.240 --> 2:28:27.720 this is this, this has gone great. We've we've changed 2:28:27.800 --> 2:28:33.360 the person in the mansion kind of yeah. And I 2:28:33.440 --> 2:28:37.200 mean the and you know, uh, not too surprisingly. You know, 2:28:37.280 --> 2:28:40.280 the second leader a couple about a year ago, Karen 2:28:40.520 --> 2:28:42.680 was on the verge of declaring a new people's war 2:28:42.720 --> 2:28:47.760 against the Maoist faction. Yeah, Maoist war against the malice. 2:28:47.920 --> 2:28:50.840 Like yeah, I mean that's you know, you you you 2:28:51.000 --> 2:28:56.960 end up. It's yeah, it's it's tricky to try to 2:28:57.120 --> 2:29:00.160 like game it out, so to speak, because you know, 2:29:00.320 --> 2:29:06.080 my I maybe I'm just squeamish. I am hoping for 2:29:06.200 --> 2:29:08.800 things to not happen with the river of blood. Yeah, 2:29:09.959 --> 2:29:12.200 in life, I hope that, uh, I hope that we 2:29:12.280 --> 2:29:16.200 don't get rivers of blood. Um oh, plan plan for 2:29:16.240 --> 2:29:19.800 war so you get you get peace. Yeah. Yeah, but 2:29:19.920 --> 2:29:21.280 you like, like like Chris has said, you know, you 2:29:21.320 --> 2:29:24.680 can get trapped into like that that escalating security dilemma. Uh. 2:29:24.800 --> 2:29:26.760 And of course, you know, investing in security doesn't actually 2:29:26.800 --> 2:29:29.400 necessarily to security. We have you know, over a century 2:29:29.440 --> 2:29:32.760 of looking at Latin American countries that investments in the 2:29:32.800 --> 2:29:35.760 military is just investments in the next civil war. Yeah, 2:29:36.320 --> 2:29:39.120 or you get cooled, and then that's that's another problem. Like, 2:29:39.520 --> 2:29:41.640 like I mean, it's weird because it's like it's a 2:29:41.640 --> 2:29:44.160 double edged strey because like the twenty century, like there's 2:29:44.160 --> 2:29:47.440 all there's a lot of like socialistic governments that come 2:29:47.480 --> 2:29:51.600 into power just from military coups, but also like probably 2:29:51.680 --> 2:29:54.920 more of those governments like get overthrown by their own coups. 2:29:55.000 --> 2:29:58.000 And it's yeah, there's there was one lesson I learned 2:29:58.120 --> 2:30:03.440 from playing Tropical It's good if you've tried to invest 2:30:03.600 --> 2:30:05.560 more in your No matter how much you invest in 2:30:05.640 --> 2:30:07.920 your military, it only will ever get you up to 2:30:08.879 --> 2:30:15.680 surviving a coup. Yeah, don't have colonels and don't have generals. Yeah, 2:30:16.320 --> 2:30:21.560 then then you get captain's cups. It's always colonels. Yeah, 2:30:21.560 --> 2:30:24.040 there's always colonels. It's because they're like passed up for 2:30:24.240 --> 2:30:28.240 general ship by the next administration or something. Yeah. Again again, 2:30:28.320 --> 2:30:31.119 sometimes sometimes you do get like stumes as you get 2:30:31.200 --> 2:30:33.120 like your pinochet, and so sometimes you do get your 2:30:33.160 --> 2:30:36.280 captain's cups, and it's like this is a that goes 2:30:36.440 --> 2:30:41.200 that's ambition right there when the cap is the government. Yeah. Well, 2:30:41.320 --> 2:30:45.959 once your captains of hit fucket mode, it's a bad Yeah, 2:30:46.520 --> 2:30:49.160 that's indicative of like bigger, deeper problems. Yeah. Well, I 2:30:49.240 --> 2:30:51.160 think like the baths are an interesting example of this 2:30:51.240 --> 2:30:53.440 because like, okay, like the Baptists were never like good, 2:30:54.120 --> 2:30:58.119 but like, you know, the Bathists like originally like we're 2:30:58.400 --> 2:31:01.520 kind of a mass movement, but then and increasingly, like 2:31:01.640 --> 2:31:03.480 over time, as as they consult their power to the 2:31:03.520 --> 2:31:07.160 military sort of revolutions, like it becomes increasingly just the 2:31:07.240 --> 2:31:10.119 Baptists are powerful because they have control of like various 2:31:10.120 --> 2:31:12.600 portions of the military, and you know, and like the 2:31:12.720 --> 2:31:15.080 the the end result of this is like instead of 2:31:15.120 --> 2:31:17.560 having revolutions like you just get you just get all 2:31:17.600 --> 2:31:19.680 political power has nothing to do with whatever is happening 2:31:19.680 --> 2:31:21.360 in the street. You get these giant protests that are 2:31:21.400 --> 2:31:22.640 like we want to go back to being part of 2:31:22.640 --> 2:31:26.160 the United the the United Republic, and it just doesn't 2:31:26.200 --> 2:31:28.920 matter because the actual political power is just what happens 2:31:28.959 --> 2:31:32.880 when the army fights itself. And yeah, I think like 2:31:35.120 --> 2:31:37.120 there's no easy solution to that other than just like 2:31:37.520 --> 2:31:40.560 don't have an armed body that's separate from just the 2:31:40.680 --> 2:31:44.760 masses of people, which is difficult to do, but also 2:31:44.920 --> 2:31:48.760 like or just armed the people somewhat. Yeah, and and 2:31:49.120 --> 2:31:53.360 you know, it's means of violence should be more evenly distributed. Yeah, 2:31:54.400 --> 2:31:56.160 I will say that was I guess part of why 2:31:56.200 --> 2:31:58.520 the scenario we had started off with like you've declared 2:31:58.560 --> 2:32:00.520 that people's republic, because the question how you get that 2:32:00.560 --> 2:32:06.400 people's republic feels like that's of your podcast podcast episodes. Yeah, yeah, 2:32:06.760 --> 2:32:09.080 you know, we've done, we've done, we've done, just like 2:32:09.240 --> 2:32:12.080 a miracle has occurred, but like a revolution has occurred 2:32:12.440 --> 2:32:15.680 and then I don't know, they like or something like 2:32:16.640 --> 2:32:17.880 as I like to say, it's good to have a 2:32:17.959 --> 2:32:20.680 plan for it if you win. Yeah, well, and I 2:32:21.040 --> 2:32:24.600 like to win and then fumble once you've already gotten Yeah, 2:32:24.640 --> 2:32:26.520 and this this this is something that like that actually 2:32:26.520 --> 2:32:29.520 does happen a lot, which is like you get into that, 2:32:29.600 --> 2:32:35.160 you get into these revolutionary like moments, but then there's 2:32:35.240 --> 2:32:38.560 just sort of like no like no one has any 2:32:38.560 --> 2:32:40.200 idea what to do next, and so they sort of 2:32:40.280 --> 2:32:43.160 bungle it or you know, you get into scenarios, yeah, 2:32:43.240 --> 2:32:46.119 or you get too revolution scenarios where like nobody's thought 2:32:46.200 --> 2:32:49.080 about what happens next, and that that's that's another way 2:32:49.120 --> 2:32:50.600 that like, yeah, these things class at the time, and 2:32:50.600 --> 2:32:53.120 that's another way you get like you know, this this 2:32:53.240 --> 2:32:56.320 isn't somethings like the whole of the sort of like 2:32:56.400 --> 2:32:58.440 the trial and error of the point of the twentieth century, 2:32:58.480 --> 2:33:00.200 which most of which is sort of and in an 2:33:00.320 --> 2:33:03.560 error is that, you know, a bunch of people were 2:33:03.560 --> 2:33:05.360 experimenting and a lot of stuff they tried didn't work, 2:33:05.879 --> 2:33:07.800 and there are lots of reasons for that. But you like, 2:33:08.120 --> 2:33:10.040 you have to in order to win, you have to 2:33:10.080 --> 2:33:13.480 actually be serious about taking power, and you have to 2:33:13.560 --> 2:33:16.640 be you know, you have to be thinking strategically and 2:33:17.120 --> 2:33:19.760 have a like, have at least a vision of what 2:33:19.879 --> 2:33:22.520 you're going to do before you like you know, like 2:33:23.000 --> 2:33:26.040 before things happen, because otherwise there's just sort of like 2:33:26.320 --> 2:33:27.760 you know, because you just you just get sort of 2:33:27.840 --> 2:33:30.680 mass confusion and yeah, and say what say what you 2:33:30.760 --> 2:33:32.440 all about the fascists they know what they're gonna do 2:33:32.480 --> 2:33:36.320 when they see its power. They're not confused about it. There. 2:33:36.480 --> 2:33:39.840 Their problems are what you do after. Yeah, they're not 2:33:39.920 --> 2:33:42.520 confused about that those first like hours when things start 2:33:42.600 --> 2:33:45.040 out the way. I hope that nothing we've said. I 2:33:45.040 --> 2:33:47.000 hope that nothing we've said on this podcast kind of 2:33:47.320 --> 2:33:49.320 makes people think like, oh, they so they have like 2:33:49.440 --> 2:33:52.920 one weird trick basically to like secure secure your power, 2:33:54.720 --> 2:33:57.200 um and like and that and that we aren't like 2:33:57.360 --> 2:34:02.119 singularly focused on acquiring for X or something. Also, it's 2:34:02.160 --> 2:34:07.120 just like it's an important lever too to have at 2:34:07.160 --> 2:34:09.920 your disposal. Like, well, number one, you should know that 2:34:09.959 --> 2:34:12.680 it's important. Number two, you should have tools in place, 2:34:12.720 --> 2:34:18.480 such as like running a running a fixed extra fixed 2:34:18.480 --> 2:34:20.480 exchange rate or something to make it a bit easier 2:34:20.560 --> 2:34:23.640 to acquire for X on the whole, or doing capital 2:34:23.720 --> 2:34:26.680 controls or doing price controls or something like that. And 2:34:26.800 --> 2:34:29.920 you should have these tools in mind in order to 2:34:30.040 --> 2:34:34.720 get from year one to year ten in terms of 2:34:34.800 --> 2:34:37.480 your biophysical resources, like here's what we have, here's what 2:34:37.560 --> 2:34:40.840 we need, and you know, some of that could be military, 2:34:40.959 --> 2:34:43.360 some of that could be economic, and some of that 2:34:43.400 --> 2:34:48.800 could be political. And um, no, one like I don't 2:34:48.800 --> 2:34:51.720 know the answers. We don't know the answers, but um, 2:34:52.560 --> 2:34:54.879 at each step of the way, you need to find 2:34:54.959 --> 2:34:57.800 groups of people who can come together and think objectively 2:34:57.800 --> 2:35:03.400 about them. Yeah, I I want. Yeah, it's not that 2:35:03.440 --> 2:35:06.880 I think that there is an answer. I'm kind of 2:35:06.959 --> 2:35:10.160 thinking about almost a little bit parallel to like, we 2:35:10.320 --> 2:35:13.000 know that if we create our you know, if if 2:35:13.520 --> 2:35:16.200 socialist managed to sees any amount of power they're going 2:35:16.280 --> 2:35:20.000 to reform whatever health care system they're currently existing in. Uh. 2:35:20.640 --> 2:35:22.920 We know this is going to be better, because it 2:35:22.920 --> 2:35:26.080 would be hard for it to be worse. Uh. But 2:35:27.959 --> 2:35:30.920 you know that's making a good hospital system is not 2:35:31.080 --> 2:35:34.200 the entire thing that makes a revolution happen. It is 2:35:34.240 --> 2:35:35.680 just one of those things that you need to do 2:35:35.800 --> 2:35:40.920 and you need to think about it. And my objective here, 2:35:41.120 --> 2:35:44.480 and it's a lot of my objective with you know, 2:35:44.600 --> 2:35:49.640 making this whole magazine project, is that my socialism means 2:35:49.680 --> 2:35:53.000 that we all we have say over our lives. You know, 2:35:53.160 --> 2:35:55.760 that's fundamental to me, that we have say over what 2:35:55.959 --> 2:35:58.039 we do with our lives. And I want to make 2:35:58.120 --> 2:36:01.240 sure that the people who are in this with me, 2:36:01.320 --> 2:36:03.800 which is hopefully everybody. I am an optimist. I'm hoping 2:36:03.840 --> 2:36:07.000 that everybody is with me on creating a better socialist world, 2:36:07.280 --> 2:36:10.440 that all of us are at least somewhat informed about 2:36:10.480 --> 2:36:13.920 the decisions we're making. I'm not actually economically trained, you know, 2:36:14.000 --> 2:36:16.720 I'm I I've learned this stuff as I've gone. It's 2:36:16.720 --> 2:36:22.879 not insurmountable. Ah, and uh, it's you know, I would 2:36:22.959 --> 2:36:25.280 want the decision about how do we make a socialist 2:36:25.360 --> 2:36:28.280 economy you know, the core of socialism worker control of 2:36:28.320 --> 2:36:31.400 the means of production that the people involved. Again, hopefully 2:36:31.400 --> 2:36:37.480 everybody uh has you know, at least has an inkling 2:36:37.520 --> 2:36:39.240 of what's going on. I don't want people to be 2:36:40.120 --> 2:36:43.760 confused and baffled by the decisions being made on their behalf. That's, 2:36:43.920 --> 2:36:47.800 you know, a fundamental evil of a capitalist system. We 2:36:47.879 --> 2:36:49.920 don't know what the fun decisions are being made for 2:36:50.160 --> 2:36:54.400 us by powerful people. Well, part of the part of 2:36:54.440 --> 2:36:57.160 the problem comes back to education, because like people are 2:36:57.560 --> 2:37:03.400 um the rois of hogged. They've hearted the knowledge of 2:37:03.640 --> 2:37:06.880 how to plan in certain respects, and I think socialists 2:37:07.640 --> 2:37:10.520 socialists will sometimes look at the body of knowledge in 2:37:10.680 --> 2:37:15.320 terms of planning and economy and say, like, well, because 2:37:15.520 --> 2:37:17.320 they are the only ones who know how to do that, 2:37:17.600 --> 2:37:21.160 the knowledge itself is tainted, and like, I don't need 2:37:21.200 --> 2:37:24.080 to learn this because it's evil. Basically, I don't need 2:37:24.120 --> 2:37:27.280 to learn how to manage a currency board or do 2:37:27.520 --> 2:37:34.160 forex management because that's money and that's evil stuff. Yeah, 2:37:34.240 --> 2:37:36.320 I hope, I hope. What we've described so far says 2:37:36.400 --> 2:37:38.440 like I don't know if it's evil or not, but 2:37:38.600 --> 2:37:42.800 it's important and it should be. I think I honestly 2:37:42.879 --> 2:37:46.280 think you're going to probably probably fail if you don't 2:37:47.000 --> 2:37:50.160 consider these things at each step of the way. Yeah, 2:37:50.360 --> 2:37:53.800 and and even in your like one of the things 2:37:53.879 --> 2:37:56.720 that that you see a lot with socialist countries is 2:37:57.000 --> 2:37:59.360 they have basically have like a firewall, right where they 2:37:59.480 --> 2:38:01.680 try to keep a separation between the parts of their 2:38:01.720 --> 2:38:05.320 economy that like are planned and the parts of their 2:38:05.360 --> 2:38:11.800 economy that like are about moving forwards around. And I think, like, okay, 2:38:11.840 --> 2:38:15.840 like there are varying degrees of effectiveness of this, but 2:38:15.959 --> 2:38:18.640 like this is like even even if you're like, okay, 2:38:18.760 --> 2:38:20.680 like we want to get rid of the economy, right, 2:38:20.760 --> 2:38:21.960 like we want to get rid of labor, We want 2:38:21.959 --> 2:38:23.280 to get rid of all the stuff as a concept, 2:38:23.400 --> 2:38:28.920 like you're gonna have to deal like until until you 2:38:29.120 --> 2:38:32.280 like win, right like until until you've like until you've 2:38:32.600 --> 2:38:38.600 raised a flag over like New York, Berlin, Shanghai, like 2:38:39.160 --> 2:38:41.640 a New Delhi at the same time, right like you're 2:38:41.680 --> 2:38:43.680 you're gonna be you're gonna have to be dealing with 2:38:43.800 --> 2:38:48.879 this stuff. And how how you do that and how 2:38:49.000 --> 2:38:51.440 quickly you're able to figure this out, how quickly you're 2:38:51.560 --> 2:38:53.480 you're able to implement, and how quickly you're able to 2:38:53.600 --> 2:38:58.120 sort of like seize control of and use the resources 2:38:58.160 --> 2:39:01.400 that you have in order to advanta your political object use. 2:39:02.120 --> 2:39:03.880 You know that that that that's going to be one 2:39:03.959 --> 2:39:05.800 of the things that tourms whether or not your revolution 2:39:05.840 --> 2:39:09.840 survives no matter what it's fighting for. Mm hmm. Like 2:39:09.959 --> 2:39:14.760 in addition to all the military stuff, um, military and economic, 2:39:15.040 --> 2:39:18.960 I think you have to just say, like you have 2:39:19.000 --> 2:39:21.320 to get to a point economically and militarily and all 2:39:21.360 --> 2:39:23.240 their other stuff to where you can just say to 2:39:23.440 --> 2:39:26.720 international powers like I don't need to make some moral 2:39:26.800 --> 2:39:29.160 claim to you, I've built a better mouse trap. I'm 2:39:29.160 --> 2:39:31.440 going to let the people decide. And it's like it 2:39:31.600 --> 2:39:36.560 just shows people living freely together, uh and enjoying a 2:39:36.680 --> 2:39:40.320 good standard of living and they don't need to exploit 2:39:40.360 --> 2:39:44.720 each other to get it. And like for not everyone, 2:39:45.480 --> 2:39:48.000 but many people, that will be really appealing. And you 2:39:48.080 --> 2:39:51.480 have to have like, uh, well more than just a 2:39:51.520 --> 2:39:54.400 diplomatic corps, you have to have like an entire like 2:39:54.520 --> 2:39:58.600 a full court international push to say like it's just 2:39:58.720 --> 2:40:03.280 a better mass trap. It's like it's, um, I don't 2:40:03.360 --> 2:40:07.039 need to focus on moral claims about like well it's 2:40:07.080 --> 2:40:10.240 better because you should just care about people because of like, 2:40:11.000 --> 2:40:14.240 you should care about people more than capitalism permits because 2:40:14.280 --> 2:40:17.800 it's just morally right. Um, that may be the case. 2:40:18.080 --> 2:40:19.960 But also people want to get paid and they want 2:40:20.000 --> 2:40:22.400 to be treated well and have a decent standard of 2:40:22.440 --> 2:40:24.720 living at the same time, and we can do it. 2:40:24.959 --> 2:40:28.879 So here's so here's how like you've you've shown them 2:40:28.959 --> 2:40:33.640 specific steps you've taken, and you've shown them the material 2:40:33.760 --> 2:40:39.320 standard of living that is shared democratically, and um, it's 2:40:39.360 --> 2:40:42.440 not just like a state giving handing things out to people. 2:40:43.320 --> 2:40:48.720 It's like a a um, true industrial democracy where it's 2:40:48.760 --> 2:40:52.119 like you you get plugged in, you make decisions along 2:40:52.160 --> 2:40:59.520 the way, and um, yeah, basically that Yeah, I think 2:40:59.560 --> 2:41:02.360 I think I think that's a pretty good note to 2:41:02.840 --> 2:41:06.040 to end on as a a a thing that we 2:41:06.200 --> 2:41:08.640 want and things that are going to have to be 2:41:09.640 --> 2:41:13.600 components of it. And also I guess thinking about you know, 2:41:13.959 --> 2:41:17.880 like rejecting theories about money as incomplete that don't deal 2:41:17.959 --> 2:41:20.200 with the fact that you don't have all the resources 2:41:20.280 --> 2:41:23.040 in your country and you in fact indeed other things 2:41:23.120 --> 2:41:27.880 to acquire them that you cannot simply create into existence. Yeah, 2:41:28.120 --> 2:41:30.600 do you too have anything else you want to say 2:41:30.879 --> 2:41:33.560 before I guess you move into plugs. I mean, like 2:41:33.720 --> 2:41:36.800 like I said, I mean, I you know, we we 2:41:36.959 --> 2:41:38.720 This might have sounded like a whole bunch of you know, 2:41:38.840 --> 2:41:43.039 high minded, theoretical egghead crap, but again I am I'm 2:41:43.080 --> 2:41:46.840 not formally educated on this stuff. This is stuff that 2:41:47.280 --> 2:41:50.920 I have learned and participated in as a socialist first 2:41:50.959 --> 2:41:54.840 and foremost. And it's been driven uh from the get go, 2:41:54.920 --> 2:41:58.880 at least for me, from um, a really fundamental desire 2:41:59.000 --> 2:42:02.640 for ecal for egalitarianism, and for people having a say 2:42:02.680 --> 2:42:06.160 in their own lives. And I hope that the people, 2:42:06.800 --> 2:42:10.240 uh who have stuck with us through this, who didn't 2:42:10.240 --> 2:42:14.320 know these concepts before, feel a little bit more equipped 2:42:14.360 --> 2:42:19.400 to participate in a discussion about, um, how you would 2:42:19.400 --> 2:42:21.680 handle these things. And as as I kind of alluded to, 2:42:21.800 --> 2:42:23.520 this scale is all the way down to you know, 2:42:24.720 --> 2:42:28.240 twelve hippies on a farm. Uh, you know this, This 2:42:29.200 --> 2:42:30.800 the scales all the way up until you've got a 2:42:30.920 --> 2:42:36.480 total total global communism pretty much anything below that. This 2:42:37.040 --> 2:42:42.080 this this principal scale, and I I hope that people 2:42:42.240 --> 2:42:48.080 feel um more able and more willing to engage both 2:42:48.160 --> 2:42:50.000 first of all, you know, to to tell liberals to 2:42:50.400 --> 2:42:53.920 you know, shut the funk up that I should have 2:42:54.000 --> 2:42:56.879 a say over how I participate in the economy, even 2:42:56.959 --> 2:42:59.160 when that's things like for X that seemed very abstract 2:42:59.240 --> 2:43:03.160 and far away. I am, I'm a person who's affected 2:43:03.160 --> 2:43:04.680 by this. Therefore I've got a stake there for my 2:43:04.800 --> 2:43:08.200 opinion matters. Uh, and that you you can get there, 2:43:08.440 --> 2:43:10.760 you can learn, and you should be allowed to participate 2:43:10.840 --> 2:43:15.360 in that. And yeah, this is what I'm trying to create, 2:43:15.440 --> 2:43:18.520 is you know that socialists do not feel like they can. 2:43:18.879 --> 2:43:20.560 Those are just get brow beaten out of the room 2:43:20.640 --> 2:43:23.640 of a discussion because some liberal nerd pushed up their 2:43:23.640 --> 2:43:25.560 glasses a whole bunch and spun their bow tie and 2:43:25.640 --> 2:43:30.040 then sense of bullshit, like you know, you it is 2:43:30.120 --> 2:43:35.120 your life, and ah, you have a right to have 2:43:35.200 --> 2:43:37.920 an opinion on it. And this is not an insurmountable 2:43:38.000 --> 2:43:40.440 thing too, It's it's hard. I want to be clear here. 2:43:40.520 --> 2:43:42.120 This is hard, and I want but I want you 2:43:42.200 --> 2:43:47.000 in the discussion. Well so, yeah, so I guess speaking 2:43:47.080 --> 2:43:50.360 speaking of things that people are involved in, I can. 2:43:50.400 --> 2:43:54.520 I can do transitions like this because I'm a professional. Um, yeah, 2:43:54.560 --> 2:43:55.680 do you do, you too? Want to talk a bit 2:43:55.680 --> 2:43:59.280 about your magazine. Sure. Like we mentioned at up top, 2:43:59.480 --> 2:44:02.520 we're uh. Kyle and I are both co editors of 2:44:02.640 --> 2:44:05.520 Strange Matters magazine, and we're in the middle of a 2:44:05.560 --> 2:44:08.800 fundraiser right now, and you can find the fundraiser at 2:44:08.840 --> 2:44:12.640 the r L tiny url dot com slash Strange Matters 2:44:13.240 --> 2:44:17.160 no no dashes or anything um. You can also follow 2:44:17.280 --> 2:44:23.080 us on Twitter at Strange Underscore Matters. And the magazine 2:44:23.120 --> 2:44:27.360 itself is going to be a We're a literary magazine, 2:44:27.680 --> 2:44:32.359 and each issue we're publishing in both prints and digital. 2:44:33.720 --> 2:44:38.200 And the print issue one is about three pages, and 2:44:38.280 --> 2:44:41.880 it's split in a half between the front pages which 2:44:41.959 --> 2:44:49.000 is um topics like economics, philosophy, politics, um more technical fields, 2:44:49.320 --> 2:44:55.280 and then the back pages is art um uh like 2:44:55.440 --> 2:45:03.720 culture reviews, um apology, anthropology like uh more, sir. We 2:45:04.440 --> 2:45:06.440 we kind of attached it to the word meaning like 2:45:06.640 --> 2:45:12.000 meaning development, and and there's a middle resting spot which 2:45:12.080 --> 2:45:14.600 is actually called the phuton, which is a play on 2:45:14.680 --> 2:45:18.360 the word fujutan, which is like kind of a resting 2:45:18.440 --> 2:45:21.240 spot between those two halves where there's going to be 2:45:21.400 --> 2:45:26.840 short pieces of usually humorous nature, and overall it's going 2:45:26.959 --> 2:45:31.360 to cover a wide range of topics and you can 2:45:31.400 --> 2:45:33.879 find out more of us. You can find out more 2:45:33.920 --> 2:45:37.360 about us on our fundraiser on our website Strange Managers 2:45:37.440 --> 2:45:39.440 dot co op. We've got a couple of articles already 2:45:39.480 --> 2:45:42.720 off on Strange Matters dot co op. We have a 2:45:43.280 --> 2:45:46.560 Steve wrote an amazing piece explaining of some very uh 2:45:46.879 --> 2:45:49.680 in very layman's terms of arguments about what inflation is 2:45:49.800 --> 2:45:51.440 and why we should care about it. You know they're 2:45:51.480 --> 2:45:55.560 quite good, yeah, very relevant. Right now, we have a 2:45:56.240 --> 2:46:02.600 truly delightful review of very contemporary, very recently made cyberpunk 2:46:02.640 --> 2:46:07.240 works by Elizabeth Sanderford, author of Neo Reaction of Bassilisk, 2:46:07.280 --> 2:46:09.160 which anybody who listens to this podcast needs to read 2:46:09.200 --> 2:46:12.720 New Reaction of bass Lisk uh, and she did as 2:46:12.760 --> 2:46:15.280 the wonderful favor of doing a pop culture review for us. 2:46:16.520 --> 2:46:20.400 We've yeah, we've also got a work by the editors 2:46:21.000 --> 2:46:25.959 Words for Our Present Reality about what how how can 2:46:26.120 --> 2:46:28.960 we discuss what actually exists in the world and what 2:46:29.120 --> 2:46:33.040 are the shortcomings with our current just like the basic 2:46:33.160 --> 2:46:35.600 levels of our discourse, and how can we advance beyond 2:46:36.840 --> 2:46:39.320 beyond this difficulty? And it's you know, it's something that 2:46:39.360 --> 2:46:41.880 sounds like it's supposed to be this very high level philosophy, 2:46:41.959 --> 2:46:44.600 but we've been I think, uh, I don't want to 2:46:44.600 --> 2:46:46.200 take too much credit for this, because I was not 2:46:46.360 --> 2:46:48.680 the main writer on it. Uh. I think that we've 2:46:48.720 --> 2:46:53.760 successfully managed to bring it down to a to a 2:46:53.879 --> 2:46:56.960 lower brow level, uh, you know, to a to a 2:46:57.120 --> 2:47:00.280 level that doesn't require you to have eighteen letter after 2:47:00.360 --> 2:47:04.320 your name of various college degrees. We also managed to 2:47:04.400 --> 2:47:08.480 publish a piece by a Russian dissidents, And I'm very 2:47:08.520 --> 2:47:10.720 excited for the works that people are going to see 2:47:10.720 --> 2:47:12.160 in the future from us. We've got a history of 2:47:12.240 --> 2:47:17.360 black cooperative movements. We've I wrote a nice little diddy 2:47:17.400 --> 2:47:21.560 about colonialism in modern board games. Uh. I'm I'm very 2:47:21.600 --> 2:47:23.320 excited for people to get the chance to read these 2:47:23.440 --> 2:47:25.240 and uh you know, it's all kind of in the 2:47:25.320 --> 2:47:33.920 service of I was creating a more almost democratizing the 2:47:34.040 --> 2:47:38.040 socialist world and making it, making it meaningful, making it useful, 2:47:38.160 --> 2:47:41.760 and also making it pleasurable for people to be socialists 2:47:42.000 --> 2:47:46.160 and to fight for a freer and more equitable world. Yeah, 2:47:46.280 --> 2:47:47.840 do you two? Do you two want people to find 2:47:47.879 --> 2:47:51.880 you on social media? And if so, where, Okay you 2:47:51.920 --> 2:47:55.120 can say no to this. People do sometimes because first 2:47:55.400 --> 2:47:58.720 hell sight. Okay, well I don't have social media, so 2:48:00.120 --> 2:48:03.200 your is not really on social media. I am on 2:48:03.480 --> 2:48:07.600 some social media, so you can find You can find 2:48:07.680 --> 2:48:11.320 me at at kept him in Whackham and I'll spell 2:48:11.400 --> 2:48:14.680 that out because it's kind of confusing at C A 2:48:15.000 --> 2:48:22.040 p M in w A C c M spelling your 2:48:22.040 --> 2:48:29.360 own nat name. Um. Yeah, so strange matters is our 2:48:29.480 --> 2:48:32.680 our campaign will run through this month and it's going 2:48:32.760 --> 2:48:36.280 pretty good so far. But we can use uh, every 2:48:36.320 --> 2:48:38.760 little bit of support goes a long way, so yeah, 2:48:39.120 --> 2:48:42.440 find find us at our website and also the fundraiser. Yeah, 2:48:42.480 --> 2:48:45.000 we're not getting paid. Just to be clear, this is 2:48:45.120 --> 2:48:47.240 the we We need to pay the authors, we need 2:48:47.320 --> 2:48:49.200 to pay for the printers. But you know this is 2:48:49.280 --> 2:48:51.600 not us trying to make a quick book. This is 2:48:51.760 --> 2:48:54.480 us trying to make sure we we are not willing 2:48:54.520 --> 2:48:59.240 to accept paying our writer's substandard. We're going to pay 2:48:59.280 --> 2:49:03.039 our writers higher than market rate as on principle, because 2:49:03.080 --> 2:49:04.920 we think the market rate is just too low. It 2:49:05.080 --> 2:49:09.160 really is. Yeah. And um oh and by the way, 2:49:09.800 --> 2:49:13.240 we're I think I mentioned it, but we're our workers cooperative, 2:49:13.360 --> 2:49:16.440 so we're a d percent worker own in control. There's 2:49:16.520 --> 2:49:20.640 no there are no levels of employment or ownership. We're 2:49:20.680 --> 2:49:27.560 all horizontal. Yeah yeah, so yeah, go go check our 2:49:27.640 --> 2:49:31.280 change matters. Um. Yeah, thank thank you too, both for 2:49:31.480 --> 2:49:34.400 thank you both for joining us. It was a wonderful time. Chris, 2:49:34.560 --> 2:49:37.400 thank you, thank you for having us. Yeah, and if 2:49:37.400 --> 2:49:40.200 you want to find more of us, Uh, we're at 2:49:40.360 --> 2:49:44.039 Happens your pod on Twitter, Instagram. I keep saying Instagram. 2:49:44.080 --> 2:49:47.800 I've never actually I'm not on Instagram. So I've been 2:49:47.840 --> 2:49:51.280 told we have one. I've never interacted with it. Uh yeah, 2:49:51.440 --> 2:49:55.920 and uh, cools and media. It has our other shows. 2:49:56.080 --> 2:50:00.200 Go listen to them. Uh, they're good and we work 2:50:00.240 --> 2:50:21.280 a lot on them. By Oh, it could happen here, 2:50:21.879 --> 2:50:27.440 and it's currently happening there there being Ukraine, which is 2:50:27.920 --> 2:50:32.039 in the midst of an invasion by the Russian government. 2:50:32.200 --> 2:50:34.640 I'm Robert Evans. This is a podcast about bad things 2:50:34.920 --> 2:50:37.640 and how to make them better, joined as often by 2:50:37.720 --> 2:50:41.760 Garrison and Chris, my co hosts, and we are talking 2:50:41.879 --> 2:50:46.640 about some of the advice, good and bad, that's been 2:50:46.680 --> 2:50:50.480 going around on social media about how to disable and 2:50:50.560 --> 2:50:53.000 destroy armored vehicles. This is something we've kind of waited 2:50:53.040 --> 2:50:55.440 to do until the conflict was a little bit more 2:50:55.480 --> 2:50:57.880 of a mature state. But in brief, if you have 2:50:58.000 --> 2:51:01.320 been following what's been happening in Russia through the lens 2:51:01.400 --> 2:51:03.240 of social media or what's pepping at Ukraine through the 2:51:03.320 --> 2:51:05.240 lens of social media, one thing that has happened is 2:51:05.600 --> 2:51:07.879 in the early stages of the invasion, a whole bunch 2:51:07.959 --> 2:51:12.280 of people flocked, particularly to Twitter, but also not this 2:51:12.400 --> 2:51:14.199 did not just stay on Twitter. There were a large 2:51:14.320 --> 2:51:17.440 number of mainstreams news articles published on the subject of 2:51:17.480 --> 2:51:20.199 the things people were saying to talk about different ways 2:51:20.240 --> 2:51:25.200 civilians could disable Russian armored vehicles or otherwise stymy and 2:51:25.360 --> 2:51:30.160 thwart the progress of Russian military units through their cities. Um. 2:51:30.280 --> 2:51:32.439 And this has been accompanied by things like the Ukrainian 2:51:32.480 --> 2:51:35.800 government giving out information on how to make molotov cocktails 2:51:35.840 --> 2:51:37.880 we talked about this in our Molotov Cocktail episode, and 2:51:37.920 --> 2:51:41.480 putting out really neat infographics on where to throw molotov 2:51:41.560 --> 2:51:44.280 cocktails to disable armored vehicles. Um. But it's also come 2:51:44.320 --> 2:51:46.720 with a lot of bad advice that I don't want 2:51:46.800 --> 2:51:50.280 people who are maybe looking at the potential of urban 2:51:50.360 --> 2:51:53.879 combat happening in their future to take away from this conflict, 2:51:53.920 --> 2:51:55.560 because there's also a lot of disinfos, So that's what 2:51:55.560 --> 2:51:59.080 we're talking about today. Yes, and I guess one of 2:51:59.120 --> 2:52:03.360 the first places to probably discuss this urban combat idea 2:52:03.920 --> 2:52:06.680 is they probably the guy who's tried to make kind 2:52:06.720 --> 2:52:08.720 of a career and of talking about urban combat, which 2:52:08.720 --> 2:52:12.640 would be who wrote a relatively viral Twitter thread on 2:52:12.720 --> 2:52:15.280 this topic, and it's been writing about this thing for 2:52:15.400 --> 2:52:20.040 the past few years. Um, he's a he's the the 2:52:20.200 --> 2:52:23.640 chair of Urban Warfare Studies at West Points Modern War 2:52:23.760 --> 2:52:26.720 Institute and served for like a quarter of a century 2:52:26.760 --> 2:52:31.640 as an infantry soldier, including two deployments into Iraq. And yeah, 2:52:31.680 --> 2:52:33.440 the past few years, he's tried to kind of make 2:52:33.480 --> 2:52:35.360 a name for himself as the guy who writes about 2:52:35.480 --> 2:52:40.560 urban combat. And obviously since this was happening largely when 2:52:40.640 --> 2:52:44.440 Russian started invading Kiev, John Spetzer put put together some 2:52:44.520 --> 2:52:47.040 of his thoughts that went pretty viral on this on 2:52:47.120 --> 2:52:50.080 this said topic. Yeah, and it's it's frustrating. You've got 2:52:50.160 --> 2:52:52.000 a quote in here from one of the articles about 2:52:52.040 --> 2:52:53.640 he was giving out that says some of his advice, 2:52:53.680 --> 2:52:56.720 which is preparing simple Molotov cocktails. It's already being seen 2:52:56.760 --> 2:52:58.960 on the streets of Kiev, which is kind of framing 2:52:59.040 --> 2:53:04.640 it as if Spin Sir advised the Ukrainians. Absolutely not true. 2:53:04.720 --> 2:53:07.320 Before he made that thread, the government was urging people 2:53:07.800 --> 2:53:11.760 to rest. And also, like Molotov cocktails got their name 2:53:11.840 --> 2:53:15.000 from people in Finland not super far from Ukraine resisting 2:53:15.040 --> 2:53:17.640 the Russian military in a very similar way to add 2:53:17.640 --> 2:53:20.880 they're being used by Ukrainian civilians. Now, um what I 2:53:21.080 --> 2:53:23.200 I believe what John Spencer did. He's a guy with 2:53:23.280 --> 2:53:27.760 some qualifications. Um, certainly like not a random person. We'll 2:53:27.800 --> 2:53:30.720 talk about random people giving advice to on Twitter. But 2:53:31.080 --> 2:53:34.400 he's also all None of his advice is new, none 2:53:34.400 --> 2:53:37.959 of it is from him, none of it is counter intuitive. 2:53:38.080 --> 2:53:40.280 A good deal of it is bad, And most of 2:53:40.360 --> 2:53:42.440 what he said that is good is just him pulling 2:53:42.520 --> 2:53:46.199 things from US military combat manuals and from Ukrainian military 2:53:46.280 --> 2:53:49.760 combat manuals and then putting it up in social media 2:53:49.800 --> 2:53:51.920 in order to go viral and try to get another 2:53:52.000 --> 2:53:55.760 book deal by making it look as if he is 2:53:55.920 --> 2:53:58.400 giving advice that is being adopted in real time, which 2:53:58.480 --> 2:54:00.680 is not what is happening. I mean, Like a good, 2:54:00.760 --> 2:54:03.840 good instance of this is yeah claiming that they're making 2:54:03.920 --> 2:54:06.520 Mulotov cocktails due to his advice. I mean, there's a 2:54:06.600 --> 2:54:09.280 picture in that very article that was taken before he 2:54:09.320 --> 2:54:12.280 even posted that thread. So it's like, no, they're they're 2:54:13.000 --> 2:54:15.080 people know how to make Multov cocktails. That's not hard 2:54:15.120 --> 2:54:17.160 to find out. In a lot of cases, the Ukrainian 2:54:17.640 --> 2:54:20.040 Ukrainian government was giving out instructions on how to do it. 2:54:20.360 --> 2:54:21.680 And I mean, and if you if you look at 2:54:21.680 --> 2:54:24.600 this picture, um, it looks very similar to a lot 2:54:24.680 --> 2:54:28.840 of a lot of like the the almost like small 2:54:29.120 --> 2:54:33.200 defensive weapons factories that we saw across the States. We 2:54:33.240 --> 2:54:36.880 would often see just collections of bottles, uh, just ready 2:54:36.920 --> 2:54:39.000 to be thrown, all kind of laid out in in 2:54:39.200 --> 2:54:42.080 in in milk crates, very similar to this photo. Now 2:54:42.160 --> 2:54:45.560 there was there was less actual Mulotov cocktails, but the 2:54:45.680 --> 2:54:47.520 way that this is whole, the way this all set 2:54:47.560 --> 2:54:51.560 up looks looks very similar to any kind of insurgency 2:54:51.640 --> 2:54:54.960 tactics of being like, yeah, there's gonna be spontaneous on 2:54:55.000 --> 2:54:57.200 the ground organizing because people are just kind of naturally 2:54:57.720 --> 2:55:00.480 gifted at that. And on a on an object ti level, 2:55:00.560 --> 2:55:03.800 Molotov cocktails have a place on an urban battlefield. They 2:55:03.840 --> 2:55:08.320 can be useful weapons for disabling armored vehicles, for causing distractions, 2:55:08.440 --> 2:55:12.960 for injuring and even sometimes killing soldiers. They are they 2:55:13.000 --> 2:55:15.560 are capable of doing that, and they that's part of 2:55:15.600 --> 2:55:18.840 why the Ukrainian government put out these guides showing like 2:55:18.959 --> 2:55:20.760 where to huck the sons of bitches in order to 2:55:20.800 --> 2:55:24.440 disable you know, transports and armored vehicles and whatnot. Now 2:55:25.000 --> 2:55:29.160 that said, attempting to attack a military column with a 2:55:29.240 --> 2:55:34.560 molotov cocktail in most circumstances is very close to suicidal, 2:55:34.640 --> 2:55:36.600 and I've watched a number of videos of Ukrainians do it. 2:55:36.600 --> 2:55:38.840 In the times that seemed to be most successful is 2:55:38.920 --> 2:55:41.680 when you have areas where the Russians are attempting to 2:55:41.800 --> 2:55:46.600 establish control, You have small groups of vehicles that are 2:55:46.680 --> 2:55:51.240 moving down residential streets, you have a significant amount of traffic, 2:55:51.360 --> 2:55:56.040 of civilian traffic occurring alongside those military convoys, and as 2:55:56.160 --> 2:55:59.280 they passed the convoy, a civilian hucks a molotov, or 2:55:59.360 --> 2:56:02.120 as they pass of building, a civilian hucks a molotov 2:56:02.800 --> 2:56:06.240 um And those seem to be, broadly speaking, the situations 2:56:06.280 --> 2:56:08.000 in which people have kind of gotten away with it. 2:56:08.520 --> 2:56:10.680 We don't have any kind of I'm not aware of 2:56:10.720 --> 2:56:14.200 any kind of solid UH overarching analysis of all of 2:56:14.240 --> 2:56:17.960 the use of molotovs in this but that is broadly speaking, 2:56:18.120 --> 2:56:21.880 a potentially effective way to use a molotov cocktail UH 2:56:22.000 --> 2:56:25.760 in order to degrade military capacity of an occupier. What 2:56:26.000 --> 2:56:28.480 doesn't work and what Spencer and a number of other 2:56:28.520 --> 2:56:31.840 people suggested is HU can paint at tanks or other 2:56:31.959 --> 2:56:35.720 armored vehicles. And that may be surprising to a lot 2:56:35.800 --> 2:56:38.160 of people. I think there's a lot of folks who 2:56:38.959 --> 2:56:42.400 want to believe this UH, want to believe that that 2:56:42.560 --> 2:56:46.560 that could really work, because it's like you walk ship right, 2:56:46.680 --> 2:56:48.560 it feels like the kind of thing in surgeon should 2:56:48.600 --> 2:56:53.080 be doing. Yes, But here is the thing. When you 2:56:53.440 --> 2:56:56.000 have police officers who are tear gassing an area and 2:56:56.080 --> 2:56:57.560 you huck a bunch of paint and you get it 2:56:57.600 --> 2:57:00.600 over their face masks and they cannot see, it reduces 2:57:00.640 --> 2:57:03.320 their ability to tear gas you for a while. It 2:57:03.400 --> 2:57:06.520 makes them uncomfortable, it makes them have less fun, and 2:57:06.600 --> 2:57:09.240 it damages gear. When you huck a bunch of paint 2:57:09.280 --> 2:57:12.600 at an armored vehicle, the armored vehicle will return fire 2:57:12.720 --> 2:57:16.000 with a fifty caliber mounted Dashka or some other similar 2:57:16.080 --> 2:57:18.840 gun which fires bullets. That are large enough to take 2:57:18.959 --> 2:57:21.160 chunks the size of your head out of concrete, and 2:57:21.240 --> 2:57:23.800 you will be torn apart in your organs, liquefied in 2:57:23.840 --> 2:57:27.080 a hail of metal. Um. Meanwhile, the paint that you 2:57:27.160 --> 2:57:30.800 are attempting to throw at that vehicle is almost certain 2:57:30.879 --> 2:57:33.680 to have no impact on it. Um. Not only are 2:57:33.720 --> 2:57:36.120 you unlikely to get close enough to use the paint, 2:57:36.160 --> 2:57:38.760 because you have to be considerably closer to do that 2:57:38.920 --> 2:57:41.400 than you have to with a molotov in most situations, 2:57:41.800 --> 2:57:45.680 but also tanks are built with the understanding that it 2:57:45.800 --> 2:57:47.960 is possible that one or more of the ways in 2:57:48.040 --> 2:57:52.200 which they see will be obstructed. Tank drivers are trained 2:57:52.320 --> 2:57:55.920 to drive blind. There are ways of utilizing tanks when 2:57:56.000 --> 2:57:58.240 vision is obstructed, because in the kinds of fights that 2:57:58.360 --> 2:58:00.720 tanks are built to get into, they are often in 2:58:00.840 --> 2:58:05.000 situations where there was so much smoke around the exactly 2:58:05.360 --> 2:58:08.360 that there is effectively zero visibility, which is why when 2:58:08.400 --> 2:58:11.560 Spencer started talking about people throwing paint at tanks, a 2:58:11.640 --> 2:58:14.640 number of tank drivers came out and said, that's actually 2:58:14.720 --> 2:58:17.960 horrible advice, like, they don't work that way, And I 2:58:18.080 --> 2:58:20.720 was I was chatting with a couple of people. Um, 2:58:20.840 --> 2:58:23.480 there was one fellow former Green brand name Mike Nelson, 2:58:23.520 --> 2:58:26.320 who was posting about Spencer and very angry that he 2:58:26.440 --> 2:58:29.840 was basically copying material directly from stuff published by the 2:58:29.920 --> 2:58:33.600 Ukrainian government, and then like getting up anytime journalists or 2:58:33.680 --> 2:58:37.400 media figures would comment about Ukraine, would like there's a 2:58:37.480 --> 2:58:40.560 nasty post here where Anne Cabrera, who I think is 2:58:40.640 --> 2:58:43.240 some sort of reporter, was like, I feel heartsick upon 2:58:43.280 --> 2:58:45.360 the latest news out of Mariopol. My god, just like 2:58:45.480 --> 2:58:49.359 expressing hard and human terry and tragedy. And Spencer posts 2:58:49.480 --> 2:58:52.040 a link to his personal website and says me too, 2:58:52.440 --> 2:58:54.240 not sure if you saw my MANI manual for the 2:58:54.320 --> 2:58:57.800 Urban Defender, but it is available in English and Ukrainian. Yeah, 2:58:58.040 --> 2:59:01.600 it's it's so like anyway grifty ship like that. But 2:59:02.120 --> 2:59:04.520 because that it is all that's very different than also 2:59:04.640 --> 2:59:07.880 like throwing paint at like a squad car or like 2:59:08.080 --> 2:59:10.840 a riot like a riot truck that's coming through because 2:59:10.840 --> 2:59:12.760 if obscure their vision, the worst that they can do 2:59:12.879 --> 2:59:14.880 is crash into a wall. They're not going to start 2:59:14.959 --> 2:59:20.520 firing uh massive explosion rounds from a central Uh. Yeah, 2:59:20.879 --> 2:59:23.680 so they they do not like for one thing, the 2:59:24.080 --> 2:59:27.000 like the police as bad as they can be. Their 2:59:27.120 --> 2:59:30.960 default when they come under any kind of like attack 2:59:31.320 --> 2:59:35.119 is not to start firing machine guns wildly in all directions, 2:59:36.080 --> 2:59:41.160 which Russian not yet at least um. But you know, 2:59:41.240 --> 2:59:43.840 the other thing, I was chatting with Matthew Mora, who's 2:59:43.879 --> 2:59:46.560 a is has been one of the guys who's biling 2:59:46.600 --> 2:59:49.080 ailing get Spencer on Twitter. Matthew was a Marine Corps 2:59:49.080 --> 2:59:52.200 tank commander and was blown up in Afghanistan. So he 2:59:52.400 --> 2:59:54.480 was in a tank that was attacked several times and 2:59:54.520 --> 2:59:58.480 eventually destroyed. UM, So he's he has some firsthand knowledge 2:59:58.480 --> 3:00:00.600 about what works and does not work a against tanks. 3:00:01.040 --> 3:00:02.800 And one of the things he pointed out is that 3:00:03.200 --> 3:00:05.960 the people who destroyed his tank put together I don't know, 3:00:06.640 --> 3:00:10.920 hundred two hundred dollars worth of various accelerants and random 3:00:11.000 --> 3:00:13.520 scrap metal and made a bomb that destroyed an Abrams 3:00:13.560 --> 3:00:17.640 tank that works a lot better than paint. And it's 3:00:17.720 --> 3:00:20.280 it's the kind of thing where I think one of 3:00:20.320 --> 3:00:22.680 the things that's frustrating here is you've got a lot 3:00:22.720 --> 3:00:25.600 of these like American kind of military academic guys and 3:00:25.640 --> 3:00:28.400 I know Spencer served, but that doesn't necessarily mean much 3:00:28.440 --> 3:00:30.880 that doesn't mean just being deployed to Iraq doesn't mean 3:00:30.920 --> 3:00:33.879 you did anything. But they were deployed and maybe they 3:00:33.920 --> 3:00:36.920 did see urban combat. But I have watched United States 3:00:36.959 --> 3:00:40.800 soldiers in an intense urban combat environment UH, and most 3:00:40.879 --> 3:00:43.320 of what they did was be inside of m wraps 3:00:43.680 --> 3:00:46.440 because it's very hard to blow those up. While the 3:00:46.520 --> 3:00:48.600 Iraqi military did a great deal of the fighting, and 3:00:48.640 --> 3:00:51.440 when US soldiers did engage in fighting, they did so 3:00:51.640 --> 3:00:55.840 with absolute air supremacy and with artillery supremacy UM. Which 3:00:55.879 --> 3:00:57.680 isn't to say that it wasn't dangerous, but it is 3:00:57.680 --> 3:01:01.160 a profoundly different situation than engaging in urban combat when 3:01:01.200 --> 3:01:03.480 the airspace is contested and when you do not have 3:01:03.680 --> 3:01:08.520 artillery supremacy. So what does that mean in terms of 3:01:08.600 --> 3:01:12.480 like what can people actually take away that's useful from 3:01:12.520 --> 3:01:16.240 this um? Well, on an individual level, something have been 3:01:16.560 --> 3:01:22.160 extremely effective. Ukrainian territorial defense militias have been very effective 3:01:22.200 --> 3:01:25.840 at doing things like picking up small arms, going out 3:01:25.920 --> 3:01:30.440 in small patrols into UH rural environments around the area 3:01:30.480 --> 3:01:34.199 where Russian troops are moving in small convoys, and oftentimes, 3:01:34.720 --> 3:01:36.480 because of the way the advance went, you would have 3:01:36.560 --> 3:01:39.879 a single or a couple of Russian munition trucks essentially 3:01:39.920 --> 3:01:43.400 alone and unsupported, trying to find their way around. Um. 3:01:43.600 --> 3:01:46.400 You had civilians doing stuff like turning signs around, like 3:01:46.560 --> 3:01:49.840 removing signs, which they were instructed to by the areas 3:01:50.000 --> 3:01:52.480 creating officials as well. Yes, yes, and which I'm sure 3:01:52.520 --> 3:01:54.400 some people just started doing because it seemed like a 3:01:54.440 --> 3:01:57.480 good idea. UM. But that sort of ship causes them 3:01:57.520 --> 3:02:00.080 to burn fuel, causes them to abandon vehicles. You had 3:02:00.200 --> 3:02:03.800 these kind of independent groups of farmers towing away abandoned vehicles. 3:02:04.280 --> 3:02:10.160 You had small raiding parties attacking convoys and attacking isolated units. 3:02:10.840 --> 3:02:14.240 You had cases where you know, Russian military units early 3:02:14.320 --> 3:02:17.160 in the fight would get into Kiev uh kind of 3:02:17.240 --> 3:02:20.680 on accident and be ambushed by territorial defense units and 3:02:20.760 --> 3:02:23.680 wiped out. And those are all very effective examples of 3:02:24.080 --> 3:02:29.280 of decentralized kind of ground up resistance against a major 3:02:29.400 --> 3:02:31.560 military force. Now, one thing we don't know that is 3:02:31.600 --> 3:02:34.520 important if you think about the potential that you might 3:02:34.600 --> 3:02:36.240 have to endure something like this, is we have no 3:02:36.400 --> 3:02:38.560 idea what the casualties were like among those kids. It 3:02:38.680 --> 3:02:42.360 is a total black box, and it's it's probable that 3:02:42.520 --> 3:02:45.840 part of why Russian forces did the war crime they 3:02:45.879 --> 3:02:48.760 did in Bucca Um was because they had an attitude 3:02:48.760 --> 3:02:52.080 that all civilians were insurgents, which is, you know what 3:02:52.240 --> 3:02:54.400 happens when you have kind of a people's war, which 3:02:54.400 --> 3:02:58.440 doesn't justify an active genocide, um, but it is something 3:02:58.520 --> 3:03:00.680 people should keep aware of. When you start fucking with 3:03:00.800 --> 3:03:04.200 the signs and ambushing the convoys and throwing molotovs, one 3:03:04.280 --> 3:03:06.360 of the things that will happen is it will accelerate 3:03:06.480 --> 3:03:09.040 the violence that is being done. Yeah, and it makes 3:03:09.080 --> 3:03:14.000 to the civilian justified target in some you know propaganda lens, Yeah, exactly. 3:03:14.080 --> 3:03:17.040 And that doesn't mean like it's you should resist if 3:03:17.120 --> 3:03:20.000 you are invaded, um. But these are things that also 3:03:20.040 --> 3:03:22.760 should be noted is this is what happens when you resist, 3:03:22.959 --> 3:03:25.280 right that This is what a modern war of this 3:03:25.400 --> 3:03:28.320 type looks like. Other things that I'm not sure if 3:03:28.320 --> 3:03:31.120 they've been effective, but they're certainly not bad strategies is 3:03:31.200 --> 3:03:33.960 the construction of a lot of vehicle barriers tank traps. 3:03:35.160 --> 3:03:39.440 Next is the barricade thing, both than what we've been 3:03:39.600 --> 3:03:42.920 kind of seeing or speculated about in the East and 3:03:43.000 --> 3:03:46.000 then how we've seen you know, barricade set ups a 3:03:46.080 --> 3:03:48.600 lot in the past few years in various resistance movements 3:03:49.000 --> 3:03:52.320 to you know, a variety of success levels and non 3:03:52.400 --> 3:03:57.280 success levels. Yeah, and and and these are like you know, barriers, 3:03:57.320 --> 3:03:59.960 tank traps of a very long history and in warfare. 3:04:00.040 --> 3:04:02.440 So they absolutely can be and have been effective many 3:04:02.480 --> 3:04:04.280 many times on the battlefield. So this is not an 3:04:04.320 --> 3:04:07.080 area of does this thing work? But it is a 3:04:07.160 --> 3:04:09.480 question of like and and this is something we just 3:04:09.560 --> 3:04:12.440 don't seem to have perfect data on did it Did 3:04:12.520 --> 3:04:15.520 it particularly play a role in what's happening here? And Um, 3:04:16.040 --> 3:04:18.400 that's harder to tell. Um. And it's probably going to 3:04:18.480 --> 3:04:21.160 be different, you know, depending on the tactical in an 3:04:21.280 --> 3:04:23.600 area you're talking about, which kind of like theater you're 3:04:23.600 --> 3:04:27.600 talking about. But um, you know one thing that's like 3:04:27.760 --> 3:04:30.720 the way in which these kind of barriers, hedgehawgs and 3:04:30.920 --> 3:04:34.400 like whatnot work, is there there an area denial tool. 3:04:34.520 --> 3:04:37.960 It's like an area denial tool four vehicles, um. And 3:04:38.040 --> 3:04:41.480 it makes military units slow down, it makes them take 3:04:41.520 --> 3:04:44.400 more time in clearing area. Um they have to tow 3:04:44.560 --> 3:04:47.640 things away or blow them up. Um. And they also 3:04:47.720 --> 3:04:49.800 can provide, depending on the type of thing, cover for 3:04:49.879 --> 3:04:53.200 infantry and in urban combat situations, which obviously can cut 3:04:53.360 --> 3:04:55.879 both ways a little bit. But there's a reason why 3:04:55.959 --> 3:04:58.240 you see these kinds of things in every conflict and 3:04:58.280 --> 3:05:01.320 also a reason why p will put them up in protests. 3:05:01.520 --> 3:05:03.960 It can be very useful to deny the vehicles of 3:05:04.040 --> 3:05:07.440 the enemy access to an area temporarily, and a big 3:05:07.560 --> 3:05:11.200 pile of metal always does that of the time. It 3:05:11.320 --> 3:05:14.280 requires something to deal with it. Yeah, that was something 3:05:14.360 --> 3:05:17.280 that was very kind of considered when there was an 3:05:17.320 --> 3:05:20.920 increase in like vehicular attacks, uh during like a lot 3:05:20.920 --> 3:05:24.280 of vehicles running into a massive, massive marches, there was 3:05:24.400 --> 3:05:27.879 definitely a concerted effort to try to block off streets 3:05:28.520 --> 3:05:30.720 where stuff is happening, whether that be like you know, 3:05:31.080 --> 3:05:34.240 corkers for marches of people who specifically block off the 3:05:34.400 --> 3:05:36.800 sides of streets with their own cars to follow the 3:05:36.840 --> 3:05:39.960 march around, or you know, less less effective arricades like 3:05:40.040 --> 3:05:41.760 throwing a chain like fence in the middle of the street, 3:05:42.080 --> 3:05:45.119 which is I guess better than nothing sometimes but also 3:05:45.200 --> 3:05:47.800 maybe not the most effective thing. Yeah, in terms of 3:05:47.920 --> 3:05:50.960 trying to like build layered barricades, that's not just you know, 3:05:51.120 --> 3:05:54.800 one flimsy wall, but it's a series of things that 3:05:54.920 --> 3:05:58.800 can compress down. And when you're talking about barricades in 3:05:59.040 --> 3:06:01.920 a kind of militant situation, there's there's broadly speaking, going 3:06:02.000 --> 3:06:05.280 to be two purposes. One of those purposes is to 3:06:06.440 --> 3:06:09.800 create a to add to the friction that you are 3:06:09.800 --> 3:06:12.560 attempting to create for the enemy. And that's that's all 3:06:12.680 --> 3:06:16.440 insurg All insurgent warfare is about creating friction, right, because 3:06:16.520 --> 3:06:21.600 friction degrades assets. It's over time. It it called basically like, okay, 3:06:21.640 --> 3:06:23.040 so say you've blocked off a bunch of roads and 3:06:23.080 --> 3:06:26.960 you've added fifteen twenty miles to the transport distance that 3:06:27.040 --> 3:06:30.160 this convoy has to go. Well, generally speaking, in the 3:06:30.240 --> 3:06:33.119 case of war, when you're talking about war, it's assumed 3:06:33.160 --> 3:06:35.640 that about one mile is in terms of wear and 3:06:35.720 --> 3:06:39.480 tear like tins plus miles um. Because of how much 3:06:39.520 --> 3:06:42.600 more difficult the strain on vehicles is in those situations. 3:06:42.800 --> 3:06:45.240 So you've added a great deal more strain on the vehicles. 3:06:45.280 --> 3:06:47.080 That increases the chance that one of them is gonna 3:06:47.120 --> 3:06:48.920 blow a tire, one of them gonna crack an axle, 3:06:49.120 --> 3:06:50.640 one of them is going to have an engine block 3:06:51.040 --> 3:06:54.640 go like blow or whatever, um, Which means over time, 3:06:54.720 --> 3:06:56.400 if you're doing this a bunch. If you're setting up 3:06:56.440 --> 3:07:00.160 barricades and you're effectively increasing or all the amount of 3:07:00.240 --> 3:07:02.560 travel time or at least the amount of idoling time 3:07:02.600 --> 3:07:05.080 that forces have to go in by a significant amount. 3:07:05.560 --> 3:07:09.160 Your guaranteeing a certain number of those vehicles are going 3:07:09.240 --> 3:07:11.320 to break or be rendered inoperable in that time. And 3:07:11.400 --> 3:07:14.000 you're also the other thing that they do is they 3:07:14.120 --> 3:07:18.640 allow you to deny area and funnel the enemy into 3:07:18.840 --> 3:07:22.520 a specific into a place more advantageous for you, right, 3:07:22.600 --> 3:07:24.200 And this can be advantageous if you're trying to set 3:07:24.280 --> 3:07:26.280 up an ambush, if you're just trying to buy time 3:07:26.360 --> 3:07:29.000 for forces to move back to a better position. Um, 3:07:29.520 --> 3:07:31.960 it can you know, there's a number of uses for it. 3:07:32.040 --> 3:07:34.880 But if you set up a series of obstacles like 3:07:35.000 --> 3:07:36.720 this and guarantee that they're going to have to find 3:07:36.760 --> 3:07:39.520 an alternate route, and you know, broadly speaking, because it's 3:07:39.560 --> 3:07:42.280 your terrain, what kind of route they're going to take, um, 3:07:42.480 --> 3:07:44.680 then you could do stuff like drop throw a drone 3:07:44.720 --> 3:07:47.119 at them, or if because of the damage you've done 3:07:47.160 --> 3:07:49.200 to the roads and the difficulty of how difficult you 3:07:49.280 --> 3:07:50.840 made it to advance, they wind up just parked for 3:07:50.920 --> 3:07:53.480 a long time. That's also a great situation to bomb 3:07:53.520 --> 3:07:56.040 people with a drone, which is by far the most 3:07:56.080 --> 3:08:00.680 effective weapons unit that we have seen built civilians in 3:08:00.720 --> 3:08:03.400 this war. By the way, UH, it's not molotovs, it's 3:08:03.400 --> 3:08:07.959 certainly not paint. It is UH civilian volunteers who put 3:08:08.080 --> 3:08:12.920 together combat drones using generally d j I drones that 3:08:13.040 --> 3:08:18.200 they have upgraded with thermal imaging cameras in order to 3:08:18.280 --> 3:08:20.800 see at night. And they have used three D printed 3:08:20.879 --> 3:08:23.440 parts in order to drop bombs from UM and they 3:08:23.520 --> 3:08:27.520 have done carried out for weeks now hundreds of extremely 3:08:27.640 --> 3:08:30.720 successful night time raids on Russian positions. This has been 3:08:30.720 --> 3:08:32.400 effective for a couple of reasons. One of them is 3:08:32.440 --> 3:08:37.360 that the Russian military does not widespread half effective night vision. UM. 3:08:37.720 --> 3:08:40.320 We don't need to get The reasons for this are complicated, 3:08:40.400 --> 3:08:43.000 based in a mix of like appropriations, corruption, issues with 3:08:43.080 --> 3:08:46.120 the technologies they do have, YadA, YadA, YadA, but they 3:08:46.200 --> 3:08:49.080 do not have the capacity in large scale to carry 3:08:49.080 --> 3:08:52.600 out operations at night to the extent that the Ukrainians do. UM. 3:08:52.760 --> 3:08:56.080 And so you get when nighttime comes these forces that 3:08:56.160 --> 3:08:59.480 were advancing in places like Kiev clustering up and huddling 3:08:59.560 --> 3:09:02.160 for the night, and then these hunter killer drones would 3:09:02.200 --> 3:09:04.720 sneak in at night and they are impossible to fucking 3:09:04.760 --> 3:09:07.200 see in daytime. I can tell you from experience. At night, 3:09:07.520 --> 3:09:11.760 their ghosts just dropping bombs on on armored vehicles and 3:09:12.000 --> 3:09:15.280 on groups of soldiers. Um and these you know what 3:09:15.480 --> 3:09:17.640 you have seen with these units which have been integrated. 3:09:17.680 --> 3:09:20.200 They are like started out as civilian volunteer groups. They 3:09:20.240 --> 3:09:23.400 have been integrated into the military to a significant extent. 3:09:23.800 --> 3:09:26.560 And I think what you do have Some of this 3:09:26.760 --> 3:09:28.640 is conjecture on my part, but you've had a lot 3:09:28.640 --> 3:09:31.880 of Russian officers in generals killed generally because they have 3:09:31.959 --> 3:09:35.320 been communicating over open phone lines. And I suspect some 3:09:35.480 --> 3:09:37.520 of what's been going on is when they figure out 3:09:37.520 --> 3:09:39.120 where one of these guys is, they send some of 3:09:39.160 --> 3:09:41.240 these fucking drone units and to blow them up, because 3:09:41.240 --> 3:09:43.600 it's not hard if you know where someone is to 3:09:43.720 --> 3:09:46.160 kill them with the drone. In this way, I think 3:09:46.200 --> 3:09:48.000 the other thing to talk about in terms of you know, 3:09:48.120 --> 3:09:52.320 building obstacles, building barricades is the whole cover versus concealment 3:09:52.360 --> 3:09:54.240 thing where a lot of people think that if they 3:09:54.320 --> 3:09:57.960 hide behind a barricade, there now impervious, which obviously isn't 3:09:57.959 --> 3:10:00.520 true if a drone is gonna get you, and obviously 3:10:00.680 --> 3:10:03.640 isn't true for a large a large number of the 3:10:03.640 --> 3:10:08.600 ammunitions that get fired, whether they be bullets or tank grounds. Yeah, yeah, 3:10:08.680 --> 3:10:11.400 I mean it's and I think that's something In videos 3:10:11.440 --> 3:10:15.280 I have watched of Russian soldiers responding to contact, you 3:10:15.360 --> 3:10:18.680 have seen a lot of people in ambushes that they 3:10:18.760 --> 3:10:22.720 lost hiding behind vehicles, UM, which if it's an armored vehicle, 3:10:22.959 --> 3:10:25.560 definitely can protect you from small arm fire. But if 3:10:25.600 --> 3:10:29.000 somebody shoots that vehicle with a with a javelin, you 3:10:29.080 --> 3:10:31.959 may find yourself next to a cooking off tank. UM. 3:10:32.400 --> 3:10:36.560 And I have seen it like people hiding behind fucking fences, 3:10:36.680 --> 3:10:40.280 which is terrible to hide behind, UM, failing to go 3:10:40.400 --> 3:10:43.760 to ground, which is always your best bet is to 3:10:43.840 --> 3:10:45.879 kind of get behind a burm or something, get loaded 3:10:45.879 --> 3:10:48.480 the fucking ground. And it's It's interesting to me a 3:10:48.560 --> 3:10:51.120 lot of the worst videos of responding to contact that 3:10:51.160 --> 3:10:53.600 I've seen on the Russian side have been there. The 3:10:53.879 --> 3:10:57.000 Ross Guardia units. I'm not great at pronouncing Russian, but 3:10:57.080 --> 3:11:01.480 they are essentially police special forces units that actually makes sense. 3:11:02.400 --> 3:11:05.600 They have every video I've seen of these guys handle 3:11:05.720 --> 3:11:08.760 being ambushed very poorly because they're not trained for that. 3:11:08.840 --> 3:11:11.560 They're trained to go bust into a house and arrest somebody, 3:11:11.680 --> 3:11:14.720 you know, like this is not where they're what they're 3:11:14.760 --> 3:11:18.480 supposed to be doing. The other thing that Spencer really 3:11:18.520 --> 3:11:22.720 focuses on is this whole like um sniper idea of 3:11:23.120 --> 3:11:26.640 of being afraid of someone, of someone just cutting you 3:11:26.720 --> 3:11:29.800 down from above, which obviously kind of is you know, 3:11:30.040 --> 3:11:32.160 more of a thing with the drone stuff as well, 3:11:32.560 --> 3:11:35.440 but this idea of not even being good at firearms, 3:11:35.520 --> 3:11:37.879 but just having the threat of taking fire from somewhere 3:11:37.879 --> 3:11:40.920 as you can't see in terms of like knowing your 3:11:41.040 --> 3:11:44.600 terrain better than whatever invading force does and knowing how 3:11:44.680 --> 3:11:47.879 to set up spots where it's it's less you're less 3:11:47.920 --> 3:11:52.920 likely to get shelled. Um, I mean yeah, and that's 3:11:53.040 --> 3:11:55.440 that's very I mean, this is very basic and old 3:11:56.080 --> 3:12:01.000 military doctrine. But this is like, you know, the ways 3:12:01.360 --> 3:12:03.840 a sniper can work in a deservein environment is you 3:12:03.920 --> 3:12:06.000 have a large number of guys and they are trying 3:12:06.080 --> 3:12:09.720 to move to a specific area and if they take fire, um, 3:12:10.760 --> 3:12:14.199 that limits their options from forward movement unless they're willing 3:12:14.280 --> 3:12:16.720 to just risk getting hit, and generally they're not, and 3:12:16.800 --> 3:12:19.680 then you find yourself kind of holding up for time 3:12:19.760 --> 3:12:22.600 to take out the sniper, which can be uninvolved in 3:12:22.680 --> 3:12:25.879 difficult process for just a single sniper. And yeah, that's 3:12:25.920 --> 3:12:27.640 definitely a thing like that. You don't have to be 3:12:28.120 --> 3:12:32.560 the fucking of Chris Kyle in order to effectively work 3:12:32.640 --> 3:12:35.200 in that kind of situation. Now, what makes that effective 3:12:35.200 --> 3:12:38.800 Because if you just have a sniper attacking police officers 3:12:38.920 --> 3:12:43.080 or soldiers in an urban environment, generally speaking, there exists 3:12:43.200 --> 3:12:45.880 the ability to deal with that pretty fucking quickly. But 3:12:46.000 --> 3:12:49.839 if you have small units of snipers kind of oftentimes 3:12:49.920 --> 3:12:52.840 just like civilians with hunting rifles who are doing that 3:12:53.000 --> 3:12:56.760 within the context of soldiers also being resisted by other 3:12:56.920 --> 3:13:00.680 soldiers and dealing with like an active combat environment, then yeah, 3:13:00.720 --> 3:13:03.519 a handful of people with rifles can be a significant 3:13:03.560 --> 3:13:06.280 force multiplier. It's a lot extra to deal with, and 3:13:06.360 --> 3:13:09.000 I suspect ship like that has been part of why 3:13:09.640 --> 3:13:13.320 you have seen cities like Mariopold resists so long under 3:13:13.400 --> 3:13:18.600 overwhelming forces that there's a pretty wide, comprehensive amount of 3:13:19.400 --> 3:13:23.320 resistance going on in those areas um And yeah, a 3:13:23.400 --> 3:13:27.119 single person if they're not like the only person engaging 3:13:27.400 --> 3:13:30.320 with the enemy in that in that area, UM, can 3:13:30.400 --> 3:13:32.520 make it a lot harder for them to effectively respond 3:13:32.520 --> 3:13:35.840 to contact. I think the last thing I wanted to 3:13:35.879 --> 3:13:39.240 kind of get into today is the whole I mean, 3:13:39.720 --> 3:13:42.080 this kind of ties into the weaponized on reality aspect 3:13:42.600 --> 3:13:45.600 of being like all of these people who are giving 3:13:46.320 --> 3:13:48.320 you know, I just listened advice on Twitter dot com, 3:13:48.440 --> 3:13:51.120 whether they be John Spencer, whether they be you know, 3:13:51.600 --> 3:13:54.880 the wife of a former marine, whether they be tank 3:13:55.000 --> 3:13:58.119 mechanics whatever, like everyone's everyone's doing this now, and it's 3:13:58.120 --> 3:14:00.640 all seen as like completely valid. Right, We're giving instructions 3:14:00.680 --> 3:14:03.440 on how to do urban insurgency online, um, and this 3:14:03.640 --> 3:14:07.680 is totally fine. Yet when you know, when information from 3:14:07.840 --> 3:14:11.800 Hong Kong gets used in protest kind of uh propaganda 3:14:12.000 --> 3:14:17.080 for urban insurgency instructions, then it's like international like organized 3:14:17.360 --> 3:14:20.320 like terrorism. Yeah. Yeah, if you're telling people had to 3:14:20.480 --> 3:14:24.040 use fucking laser pointers, yeah, it's like the selective thing. 3:14:24.160 --> 3:14:26.280 How but you're like, Okay, we're allowed to tell people 3:14:26.320 --> 3:14:29.680 how to do urban insurgency right now, but when this 3:14:29.840 --> 3:14:32.280 is over or in the past, it's it's it's not allowed. Right, 3:14:32.320 --> 3:14:34.800 you have John Spencer, who I doubt would be giving 3:14:34.879 --> 3:14:37.560 I doubt was a big fan of any Black Lives 3:14:37.600 --> 3:14:43.119 Matter demonstration just but but I mean, I certainly doubt 3:14:43.200 --> 3:14:46.560 was giving people instructions and how to disable bearcats. Yeah, 3:14:46.720 --> 3:14:48.360 I don't think he was giving instructions and how to 3:14:48.400 --> 3:14:52.240 ambush police officers or anything like that. So you have 3:14:52.320 --> 3:14:55.680 this whole coalition of people on Twitter dot com giving 3:14:55.760 --> 3:14:59.200 all this advice out how to do urban insurgency and whatever. Well, also, 3:14:59.360 --> 3:15:02.840 you know, when ever something is happening like that where 3:15:02.879 --> 3:15:05.480 they live, it is that that is obviously bad and 3:15:05.520 --> 3:15:08.520 obviously not a good thing, whether you know, for you know, 3:15:08.600 --> 3:15:11.600 you could talk about whatever like ideological drive people have, 3:15:12.080 --> 3:15:13.680 but I think this is just an interesting thing worth 3:15:13.720 --> 3:15:16.160 talking about in terms of how we will offer we 3:15:16.200 --> 3:15:18.240 will view. You know, this type of discussion of urban 3:15:18.240 --> 3:15:20.520 insurgency is always like a bad thing, all right. It's 3:15:20.520 --> 3:15:22.640 always this thing that like terrorists do you're helping, you know, 3:15:22.760 --> 3:15:25.800 you're you're always you're mooting for the destruction of civilization 3:15:25.879 --> 3:15:28.119 or whatever, um. And then it just takes a few 3:15:28.200 --> 3:15:30.480 things for you get you know, an instructor at West 3:15:30.520 --> 3:15:33.760 Point to start, you know, posting threads to help sell 3:15:33.800 --> 3:15:37.080 his new book on these very same topics. Yeah, I 3:15:37.120 --> 3:15:39.200 mean there's I think a little degree to which I 3:15:39.280 --> 3:15:41.720 might push back on some of that, not necessarily, Spencer, 3:15:41.800 --> 3:15:44.119 But I can't remember during like the Fed War in Portland, 3:15:44.200 --> 3:15:46.280 which was the probably the part of Portland that like 3:15:46.400 --> 3:15:48.120 most people are aware of, when you had a bunch 3:15:48.120 --> 3:15:51.119 of federal agents snatching people, it was the most warlike 3:15:51.240 --> 3:15:54.879 part of the you you had for this brief period 3:15:54.920 --> 3:15:57.720 of time a lot of folks because I took part 3:15:58.240 --> 3:16:01.720 giving out advice on Twitter to respond to and handle 3:16:01.800 --> 3:16:05.600 police munitions. Um that when I think that certainly went 3:16:06.120 --> 3:16:09.879 more viral than it would have gone in a different 3:16:09.920 --> 3:16:12.840 sort of situation. Um And I think you do have. 3:16:13.280 --> 3:16:14.800 I think part of what you're seeing in Ukraine, and 3:16:14.840 --> 3:16:16.360 this is just sort of a general thing that happens 3:16:16.400 --> 3:16:21.600 online is when something a news moment, blows up in 3:16:21.680 --> 3:16:24.120 a way that is like big enough it disrupts the 3:16:24.240 --> 3:16:26.720 norms and suddenly for a while you can talk about 3:16:26.800 --> 3:16:29.680 things like how to disable government armored vehicles and fight 3:16:29.920 --> 3:16:33.000 like you know, the reality suddenly becomes so much bigger, 3:16:33.360 --> 3:16:37.360 and what is what is acceptable discourse suddenly expands out 3:16:37.879 --> 3:16:40.040 much bigger than what it usually tells. It becomes a 3:16:40.080 --> 3:16:42.480 lot more permeable. And I do think broadly, Like we're 3:16:42.480 --> 3:16:46.000 shooting on Spencer here because he's frustrating to me. Um, 3:16:46.120 --> 3:16:48.880 but I do think that, like, really really broadly. Um, 3:16:49.440 --> 3:16:51.280 it's good when stuff like it's good for people to 3:16:51.400 --> 3:16:54.520 think about. Even if I don't, I certainly don't. I 3:16:54.600 --> 3:16:57.039 certainly do not want there to be I don't want 3:16:57.120 --> 3:17:00.000 anyone listening to this who has not experienced urban warfare 3:17:00.160 --> 3:17:03.040 to experienced urban warfare. I will absolutely I will. I 3:17:03.120 --> 3:17:06.320 will say that right now. But it is not bad 3:17:06.720 --> 3:17:09.160 for people to be thinking about and talking about the 3:17:09.200 --> 3:17:12.320 ways in which a civilian population can do damage to 3:17:12.440 --> 3:17:16.880 an invading organized military force. That's not a bad discourse 3:17:16.959 --> 3:17:20.240 to exist, and it's not bad for people to be 3:17:20.440 --> 3:17:23.720 thinking in this way. And it's not bad for the 3:17:24.760 --> 3:17:28.920 people who are potentially in power to have that in 3:17:29.040 --> 3:17:31.960 the back of their heads, you know. Yeah, I mean, like, 3:17:32.160 --> 3:17:34.560 the one of the first things you sent me when 3:17:34.560 --> 3:17:36.520 I started working for it could happen here was the 3:17:37.360 --> 3:17:40.360 was the city is not neutral peace? Um on Urban 3:17:40.680 --> 3:17:47.440 combat is hard. Um. Yeah, it's definitely. It's the thing that, Yeah, 3:17:47.560 --> 3:17:49.400 it's it's always it's it's worth thinking about, but you 3:17:49.400 --> 3:17:51.920 don't want to. We're not trying to wish on anybody. 3:17:51.959 --> 3:17:53.800 And I think you can. You can look at all 3:17:53.840 --> 3:17:57.040 of like the weirdos on the internet who have like 3:17:57.600 --> 3:17:59.680 you know this, you know this is some degree of 3:17:59.760 --> 3:18:01.120 like not sees who have done this, but also just 3:18:01.200 --> 3:18:04.240 like random other people who have flown to Ukraine to 3:18:04.440 --> 3:18:07.400 help join fight off the Russians because they think it's 3:18:07.400 --> 3:18:08.720 going to be cool and they'll be able to work 3:18:08.760 --> 3:18:11.240 with the Azov Batalion or something, who then get stationed 3:18:11.280 --> 3:18:14.320 to basically be cannon fodder because they're this like twenty 3:18:14.400 --> 3:18:17.160 year old from America who's never actually held a gun before. 3:18:17.400 --> 3:18:20.240 I hope that one's true. It is just like a 3:18:20.360 --> 3:18:22.560 post because if it's true, then it means that someone 3:18:22.640 --> 3:18:25.400 in the Ukrainian government is consciously making the choice to 3:18:25.520 --> 3:18:28.000 use one of the Azov veterans as cannon fodder, which 3:18:28.040 --> 3:18:31.600 is funny, funny, extremely funny. If it's happening, right, we don't, 3:18:31.760 --> 3:18:35.920 that's not that's not confirmed. Certainly, a percentage, probably not 3:18:36.000 --> 3:18:38.680 an insignificant percentage of dudes who have done shown up 3:18:38.720 --> 3:18:40.400 to do this have like been like, oh my God, 3:18:40.480 --> 3:18:43.000 what the fuck? Um, some of them I'm sure just 3:18:43.040 --> 3:18:44.840 didn't have much experience. I'm sure some of them were 3:18:44.920 --> 3:18:48.080 dudes who had experience being on the side with overwhelming 3:18:48.120 --> 3:18:51.440 air power. Um, and we're like, oh fuck, but you 3:18:51.560 --> 3:18:54.280 also do It's fair to note like the stories of 3:18:54.360 --> 3:18:57.960 people like having like freaking out go viral. Um. There's 3:18:58.000 --> 3:19:00.840 plenty of videos of like mixed foreign or units in 3:19:01.000 --> 3:19:04.120 heavy combat, including a bunch where you can hear US 3:19:04.200 --> 3:19:07.360 and British dudes. Finally, like, because a lot there's a 3:19:07.400 --> 3:19:10.720 lot of people who have legitimate, like hard combat experience 3:19:10.760 --> 3:19:13.000 who have have volunteered to go do this. Yeah. The 3:19:13.200 --> 3:19:15.600 one thing I also do find kind of uncomfortable is, 3:19:16.400 --> 3:19:18.800 I mean, no, it's not super unlike what what what 3:19:18.879 --> 3:19:20.320 we're doing now that we're trying to come at it 3:19:20.360 --> 3:19:25.120 from a more uh like critical standpoint, but like Americans 3:19:25.200 --> 3:19:27.600 who maybe have gone to a protest or two but 3:19:28.040 --> 3:19:31.480 no real experience, just going on Twitter dot com and 3:19:31.640 --> 3:19:35.240 talking about how they think beating an army is best done, 3:19:35.440 --> 3:19:37.760 how that works. Yeah. Well, and like you know, if 3:19:37.800 --> 3:19:41.680 if you look at like the okay, like the times 3:19:41.800 --> 3:19:44.400 that like the US has actually attempted to fight its 3:19:44.440 --> 3:19:47.880 own Army, right, Like the last time this happened was 3:19:48.040 --> 3:19:51.080 the L L A. Riot and ninety two and they 3:19:51.200 --> 3:19:56.119 got their ship pushed in like it it went really 3:19:56.280 --> 3:19:58.520 really badly for the people on This was really ugly. 3:19:58.600 --> 3:20:00.640 There was a lot of bodies. Yeah, and like and 3:20:00.720 --> 3:20:02.280 you know, and part part of what you know, and 3:20:02.360 --> 3:20:04.800 I will say, like part of what's I guess you 3:20:04.879 --> 3:20:06.320 still about this is like yeah, this is I mean, 3:20:06.400 --> 3:20:07.760 this is the thing that is I mean I wasn't 3:20:07.800 --> 3:20:10.880 alive for it, but like at like Robert, you were 3:20:10.879 --> 3:20:14.120 alive for that, like like that that that is a 3:20:14.240 --> 3:20:16.920 thing like in living memory. The Army has been deployed 3:20:17.400 --> 3:20:19.600 on American soil and one of the things that went 3:20:19.680 --> 3:20:23.920 wrong is that the people on the ground had basically 3:20:23.959 --> 3:20:25.760 no time. And this is something you can read from 3:20:25.879 --> 3:20:28.640 from like the Army's accounts of this, is that like 3:20:28.800 --> 3:20:30.879 the people that they were dealing with had no tactical 3:20:30.920 --> 3:20:32.760 experience what wherever they did it, they had no conception 3:20:32.800 --> 3:20:35.560 of tactics, and the Army was able to very quickly 3:20:35.600 --> 3:20:38.520 crush them. And you know, if if you don't want 3:20:38.560 --> 3:20:40.600 that to happen to you, yeah, like that there there 3:20:40.680 --> 3:20:43.720 there is a way which is stuff is important to 3:20:43.800 --> 3:20:46.480 be thinking about. But also like dear God, that is 3:20:46.640 --> 3:20:52.240 the worst ship, Like yeah you that here. Here's what's 3:20:53.040 --> 3:20:57.560 what's important to understand about that anytime you are dealing 3:20:58.320 --> 3:21:03.960 with any kind of conflict, like physical conflict that involves 3:21:04.080 --> 3:21:06.760 violence and and that can be as narrow as like 3:21:06.840 --> 3:21:09.760 a protest, you know, where people are squaring off with 3:21:09.840 --> 3:21:14.320 the cops, or an actual like full on military conflict, 3:21:15.480 --> 3:21:18.960 the winner is the person who is most disruptive to 3:21:19.160 --> 3:21:24.840 the enemies. Ode loop, right, um, observe, orient, decide act. 3:21:25.080 --> 3:21:26.959 That's the loop that you go through when you are 3:21:27.000 --> 3:21:28.760 trying to decide how to act in any kind of 3:21:28.800 --> 3:21:32.400 a kinetic situation UM on the streets and a protest. 3:21:32.520 --> 3:21:34.280 One of the things where I where we have all 3:21:34.360 --> 3:21:38.600 seen people be the most successful against cops is when 3:21:38.640 --> 3:21:40.879 you change the rules on them. Is when they are 3:21:40.920 --> 3:21:43.680 in a situation they did not anticipate being in, because 3:21:43.720 --> 3:21:45.640 they tend to freak out and they tend to respond 3:21:45.720 --> 3:21:48.480 and effectively, right, you do not want to if you 3:21:48.560 --> 3:21:50.840 see them preparing to act in a certain way because 3:21:50.840 --> 3:21:54.000 they believe you were doing a specific thing, you ideally 3:21:54.120 --> 3:21:56.200 do not then do the thing they are preparing for 3:21:56.400 --> 3:21:58.400 because that is a situation which you're gonna wind a 3:21:58.440 --> 3:22:01.480 battering yourself against a riot line. Right. Um, that's what 3:22:01.640 --> 3:22:04.119 the that's the core of the move be like water 3:22:04.280 --> 3:22:06.600 thing from Hong Kong, is the idea that do not 3:22:06.840 --> 3:22:09.240 engage them in a way they are prepared for, and 3:22:09.320 --> 3:22:11.240 that that that is a that is a piece of advice. 3:22:11.320 --> 3:22:14.200 Broadly speaking, that's just as true in a war as 3:22:14.240 --> 3:22:17.200 it is in a protest situation. On their own terms. 3:22:17.480 --> 3:22:20.680 What this also means is that you don't want to 3:22:20.720 --> 3:22:24.680 be playing by a set of rules that are ineffective 3:22:24.720 --> 3:22:26.840 in the situation you're getting into. So like when you 3:22:26.959 --> 3:22:30.280 had protesters in in l A engaging with the military, 3:22:30.680 --> 3:22:32.480 they were playing by the rules of how do you 3:22:32.640 --> 3:22:36.439 deal with cops and suddenly they were dealing with soldiers 3:22:36.920 --> 3:22:41.039 and boy, howdy are the rules different? You know? Um? 3:22:41.879 --> 3:22:46.800 And likewise, the Russian military was trained and blooded to 3:22:46.920 --> 3:22:50.600 a large extent in conflicts in places like Syria, where 3:22:50.840 --> 3:22:55.320 again they had air supremacy, Um, they had artillery supremacy. 3:22:55.600 --> 3:22:58.920 They were backing the state that was fighting against these insurgents, 3:22:59.360 --> 3:23:02.959 and so they're soldiers gained the combat experience they had 3:23:03.360 --> 3:23:07.879 with every advantage in their pocket. Um. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian military, 3:23:08.040 --> 3:23:10.720 if you're talking really about like because we've talked about 3:23:10.760 --> 3:23:12.680 a lot of little things that have maybe had an 3:23:12.680 --> 3:23:14.320 impact on the conflict here, and they're one of the 3:23:14.360 --> 3:23:16.920 things that's had the biggest impact on how the Ukrainian 3:23:17.000 --> 3:23:21.080 military has responded and and comported itself in this war 3:23:21.200 --> 3:23:24.800 so far versus the Russian is for years eight years 3:23:24.840 --> 3:23:28.560 since this conflict started, the Ukrainian military has developed a 3:23:28.920 --> 3:23:32.680 posture of having soldiers sign up for these brief contracts, 3:23:32.920 --> 3:23:36.160 sending and rotating them through the battleground and the dawn 3:23:36.240 --> 3:23:39.000 boss so that when this war started, they had a 3:23:39.200 --> 3:23:41.879 huge number, more than anyone else in Europe, of combat 3:23:42.000 --> 3:23:45.560 veterans who got their experience fighting against a peer adversary 3:23:45.720 --> 3:23:48.520 when they did not have supremacy and artillery or air 3:23:48.600 --> 3:23:52.160 support when they engaged them um. And then the Ukrainian 3:23:52.240 --> 3:23:56.560 military very intelligently spread these guys out amongst their their 3:23:56.760 --> 3:23:58.760 their units, which is what you want to do. Any 3:23:58.840 --> 3:24:01.039 military is going to want to spread out your veterans 3:24:01.040 --> 3:24:02.840 among units, because you're not everyone's not going to be 3:24:02.879 --> 3:24:04.640 a combat veteran, but you want some guys who know 3:24:04.800 --> 3:24:07.160 what it's like to be shot at and every kind 3:24:07.200 --> 3:24:09.039 of unit that might get shot at because they stiff 3:24:09.080 --> 3:24:11.400 in the back of everybody else. And this is what 3:24:11.600 --> 3:24:14.039 So again, when when the war started, to get back 3:24:14.040 --> 3:24:17.320 to what I'm saying, the Russian military entered preparing for 3:24:17.560 --> 3:24:20.560 a police action like the ones they carried out in Czechnia, 3:24:21.040 --> 3:24:23.920 um like what they did have done for Assad in Syria, 3:24:24.280 --> 3:24:26.760 and they got a war, and the Ukrainians came into 3:24:26.800 --> 3:24:30.880 that fight prepared for a war. So you you, I 3:24:31.000 --> 3:24:32.640 think one of the things that is important when you 3:24:32.720 --> 3:24:35.800 look at consider any kind of possibility of being involved 3:24:35.959 --> 3:24:38.880 in a conflict is you want to know what are 3:24:38.959 --> 3:24:43.560 the rules your opponent is going in ready to abide by, right, 3:24:43.600 --> 3:24:45.600 what are the things they are expecting to happen, What 3:24:45.800 --> 3:24:48.160 is kind of the rubric with which they are looking at, 3:24:48.240 --> 3:24:52.280 what they expect to occur in this conflict? And by god, 3:24:52.400 --> 3:24:55.119 you want to be going in there with a different one, 3:24:55.400 --> 3:24:58.480 you know, um And that again, depending on how you 3:24:58.560 --> 3:25:00.240 do it, that can go badly or that can go 3:25:00.360 --> 3:25:02.320 really well, because like I said, if you're if you're 3:25:02.360 --> 3:25:04.320 going and prepared to fight cops and you wind up 3:25:04.320 --> 3:25:08.480 dealing with soldiers, that's not great. Um. But if you 3:25:08.920 --> 3:25:12.280 have prepared, if you are able to kind of lock 3:25:12.360 --> 3:25:14.880 your enemy into the kind of conflict that they're not 3:25:15.240 --> 3:25:19.480 ready to face, um, then generally speaking you'll win. We 3:25:19.560 --> 3:25:22.040 have twenty years of experience in the War on Terror 3:25:22.120 --> 3:25:25.040 of more or less that going down. Yeah, there's a 3:25:25.120 --> 3:25:26.880 there's a there's a good example of this also with 3:25:27.920 --> 3:25:30.160 the like with the i d F s a war 3:25:30.160 --> 3:25:31.879 against hes Blo in two thousand and six, where it's 3:25:31.920 --> 3:25:34.560 like the IDEF is a really good army, but they'd 3:25:34.600 --> 3:25:36.920 spent like I don't know, like they spent like forty 3:25:37.080 --> 3:25:40.360 years basically just sort of like, yeah, they've been about 3:25:40.400 --> 3:25:43.080 forty years doing police actions. Yeah, and then they run 3:25:43.120 --> 3:25:45.520 into Hesbla and they expect Hesbah is going to just 3:25:45.720 --> 3:25:47.360 you know, they've made Lebanon jails and six and their 3:25:47.360 --> 3:25:49.520 expectations that Hesblah is going to go to ground, They're 3:25:49.520 --> 3:25:51.880 gonna do a guerrilla war and instead has blood like 3:25:52.360 --> 3:25:54.000 when they go into bunkers. But they stand in fight 3:25:54.080 --> 3:25:56.800 and the id F gets smashed and like you know, 3:25:56.920 --> 3:25:58.840 they pull out and they spend a bunch of time 3:25:58.879 --> 3:26:00.760 just like murdering people from the air. But like they 3:26:00.760 --> 3:26:03.760 don't win the war. And like like that that happens 3:26:03.800 --> 3:26:06.720 a lot, especially with these armies that are used to dealing, 3:26:06.879 --> 3:26:08.520 used to doing these sort of police action things, and 3:26:08.560 --> 3:26:11.960 they losed enemies that like the fact that the I 3:26:12.040 --> 3:26:14.960 d F Lost Award has blood is like by like 3:26:15.120 --> 3:26:17.960 balance of forces. It's like this is inconceivable, Like how 3:26:18.040 --> 3:26:19.920 on earth did they possibly lose this? But it's like, yeah, 3:26:20.040 --> 3:26:23.720 this stuff happens because they weren't like, yeah, they they 3:26:23.959 --> 3:26:25.600 were they were doing they were doing this police action thing, 3:26:25.640 --> 3:26:28.199 and they weren't used to They hadn't fought an enemy 3:26:28.240 --> 3:26:29.680 that was actually going to stick in and fight them 3:26:29.720 --> 3:26:32.520 since like the seventies. Yeah, I mean a lot of 3:26:32.640 --> 3:26:38.200 the great defeats in military history because a force came 3:26:38.280 --> 3:26:40.920 into a situation expecting a different kind of fight than 3:26:41.000 --> 3:26:43.000 what they got. That was a part of what happened 3:26:43.040 --> 3:26:45.600 to Napoleon when he invaded Russia, right, and the Russians 3:26:45.840 --> 3:26:48.120 did not respond the way that he expected a state 3:26:48.200 --> 3:26:51.840 to respond to having their capital occupied, um, and effectively 3:26:51.959 --> 3:26:53.520 kind of starved him out. There was other ship going 3:26:53.560 --> 3:26:57.640 on there. Attrician had really depleted the French military before 3:26:57.720 --> 3:27:00.640 it got there. But but yeah, um, yeah, how how 3:27:00.680 --> 3:27:02.160 I went on how I would want to wrap up 3:27:02.200 --> 3:27:05.040 this is basically saying like and all of that stuff 3:27:05.080 --> 3:27:08.160 regarding how this war has really prompted a lot of 3:27:08.680 --> 3:27:12.760 things that were seemingly more unexpected and seemingly thought to 3:27:12.840 --> 3:27:16.600 be previously more impossible. UM in terms of how fast 3:27:17.160 --> 3:27:20.240 both rhetoric around these these types of conflicts can spread 3:27:20.360 --> 3:27:23.160 and more and the role in which like disinformation and 3:27:23.240 --> 3:27:26.640 misformation is used for you know, both both sides to 3:27:26.840 --> 3:27:29.480 to to gain digging ground on the other and how 3:27:30.520 --> 3:27:32.120 you know, relating back to it could happen here is 3:27:32.320 --> 3:27:34.960 MS in terms of like the urban crumbles or like 3:27:35.080 --> 3:27:38.720 you know, the small small like urban collapses, um, and 3:27:38.920 --> 3:27:43.160 you know, escalating escalating like inter inter country conflict in 3:27:43.280 --> 3:27:47.240 various places around the world. How fast certain things can 3:27:47.320 --> 3:27:49.560 happen that we once thought are kind of more impossible 3:27:49.680 --> 3:27:52.960 or improbable at the very least. You know, how how 3:27:53.040 --> 3:27:56.000 fast you can get people giving advice on how to 3:27:56.120 --> 3:27:58.800 take out armored vehicles on Twitter dot com. How fast 3:27:58.840 --> 3:28:01.000 you can get you know, people like people who are 3:28:01.080 --> 3:28:04.400 you know, seemingly are part you know, seemingly not not 3:28:04.520 --> 3:28:08.120 tied to certain just certain like ideas or theologies giving 3:28:08.160 --> 3:28:11.320 out you know, information on types of types of ways 3:28:11.400 --> 3:28:16.000 to resist invading or oppressing forces. It is it is 3:28:16.000 --> 3:28:19.879 an interesting kind of It's like case studies the wrong 3:28:19.920 --> 3:28:22.959 word because it is it's it's obviously having horrible effects 3:28:23.040 --> 3:28:26.280 with you know, thousands and thousands of people being slaughtered um, 3:28:26.879 --> 3:28:29.880 but it is it is intriguing to watch, how, you know, 3:28:30.120 --> 3:28:32.920 in terms of like the microcos of macrocosm idea of 3:28:34.080 --> 3:28:37.840 of eventually you know, conflict, if conflict breaks out in 3:28:37.920 --> 3:28:39.640 other places around the world, and next in the next 3:28:39.680 --> 3:28:42.560 few years, how are current like social media landscape, How 3:28:43.280 --> 3:28:47.800 are kind of rules around like urban conflict, like urban 3:28:47.879 --> 3:28:50.120 conflict and all of these things kind of interact with 3:28:50.160 --> 3:28:53.720 each other and how we view Yeah, what is what 3:28:53.959 --> 3:28:56.080 is likely and what we you know, who who you're 3:28:56.080 --> 3:28:58.400 going to predict is gonna do X thing based on 3:28:58.800 --> 3:29:03.119 people invading a city that it's not theirs? Yeah, um, 3:29:03.520 --> 3:29:05.440 I mean I think in terms of stuff that that 3:29:05.560 --> 3:29:09.880 people can take out of this, you know, without necessarily 3:29:09.959 --> 3:29:12.680 needing to prepare to fight in an urban insurgency. One 3:29:12.720 --> 3:29:17.000 of them is that anytime big ship happens and and 3:29:17.120 --> 3:29:18.920 more big ship is going to keep happening for us, 3:29:18.959 --> 3:29:21.720 you have a window of opportunity through which you can 3:29:21.800 --> 3:29:24.320 get things across to people that they would not normally 3:29:24.400 --> 3:29:28.440 listen to. UM. And that is a really important time, 3:29:29.040 --> 3:29:31.920 and it helps to think about the kind of situations 3:29:32.000 --> 3:29:34.320 that might occur in the kind of things that you 3:29:34.400 --> 3:29:36.600 want to push out into the world. UM. Because this 3:29:36.760 --> 3:29:38.680 is this is is true with climate change as it 3:29:38.800 --> 3:29:41.080 is with war. Right, We're going to have more disasters, 3:29:41.400 --> 3:29:45.120 and when those disasters hit, it will be easier to 3:29:45.320 --> 3:29:48.600 get people to talk about radical solutions to things like 3:29:48.720 --> 3:29:51.520 climate change, and it will be easier to do things 3:29:51.600 --> 3:29:54.160 like get out in the fucking streets and get large 3:29:54.200 --> 3:29:57.640 groups of people agitated. You know, we're we're at some point, 3:29:58.200 --> 3:30:01.640 fucking God willing, we will have of the climate change 3:30:01.680 --> 3:30:05.560 equivalent to what happened in where something so terrible and 3:30:05.640 --> 3:30:07.440 fucked up happens that a lot of people take to 3:30:07.440 --> 3:30:11.840 the streets, and hopefully we will succeed to a greater 3:30:11.959 --> 3:30:15.520 extent in forcing actual change than maybe we did in 3:30:17.720 --> 3:30:20.680 But but that's that's something like that could very well happen. 3:30:20.800 --> 3:30:22.280 And so that's one of the lessons I think you 3:30:22.320 --> 3:30:24.640 can take out of this again without sort of obsessing 3:30:24.720 --> 3:30:29.040 over military technology or getting into gunfights with fucking soldiers 3:30:29.240 --> 3:30:34.240 is Ukraine is hard evidence that that is the way 3:30:34.280 --> 3:30:37.280 the media environment works. You get these moments where you 3:30:37.360 --> 3:30:40.920 can really push some wild ship to people. That's that's 3:30:40.959 --> 3:30:44.400 why I like the whole uprising or insurrection model more 3:30:44.480 --> 3:30:48.800 than the revolution model, because the uprising model posits that basically, 3:30:49.000 --> 3:30:51.800 you have you know, base base society based reality, you know, 3:30:51.920 --> 3:30:54.920 always at like the base side level, then uprising happens. 3:30:54.959 --> 3:30:57.199 It's like it's like shooting up onto a graph. Suddenly, 3:30:57.320 --> 3:31:00.440 so many things that are outside the normal way that 3:31:00.560 --> 3:31:03.640 we view you know, systems, the governance systems of you know, 3:31:03.760 --> 3:31:06.160 social control. So many things become so much more possible 3:31:06.200 --> 3:31:08.680 in this like heightened place. Um. And that's what the 3:31:08.800 --> 3:31:11.879 uprising does. It gets things that were suddenly that were 3:31:11.959 --> 3:31:14.600 once so far away and once just only in the imagination. 3:31:15.000 --> 3:31:18.199 It almost it makes them so much closer. Right. There's 3:31:18.240 --> 3:31:20.600 this feeling in like July during the height of the 3:31:20.640 --> 3:31:23.360 fed war, being like so many things feel possible in 3:31:23.440 --> 3:31:26.680 this one moment, nothing is true and all is permitted, 3:31:26.920 --> 3:31:30.200 Like you can you can get away with some ship. Yeah, 3:31:30.440 --> 3:31:33.400 And so using the uprising model, yeah, it can really 3:31:34.120 --> 3:31:36.360 and or or the or the instruction model like it 3:31:36.400 --> 3:31:39.640 can really it can really make things feel so much 3:31:39.760 --> 3:31:42.760 more possible than what they usually feel like. And that 3:31:42.920 --> 3:31:45.560 there's you know, brief moments in time where massive social 3:31:45.680 --> 3:31:48.039 change can happen, and you know you have to learn 3:31:48.080 --> 3:31:50.400 how to recognize when this moment are happening and then 3:31:50.560 --> 3:31:56.880 organize effectively when they do happen. Yeah, yep, well I 3:31:57.000 --> 3:32:00.520 believe that does it for us today. Um yeah, we 3:32:00.600 --> 3:32:02.720 when we've been wanting to talk about this topic for 3:32:02.720 --> 3:32:04.480 a while in terms of you know, one of the 3:32:04.760 --> 3:32:08.800 very first things that's not happening was various governments giving 3:32:08.879 --> 3:32:11.800 guides out on where to attack armored vehicles with ball tops. 3:32:11.840 --> 3:32:13.920 We're like, oh wow, this is this is intriguing to 3:32:14.000 --> 3:32:17.240 have a government giving out instructions. Um, this is probably 3:32:17.280 --> 3:32:19.920 has some implications on how we view you know, uh, 3:32:20.560 --> 3:32:23.600 collapse in the in a in a general concept. So yeah, Ever, 3:32:23.680 --> 3:32:25.440 since that's not happening, we wanted to talk about it. 3:32:25.640 --> 3:32:28.360 So yeah, it certainly leaves us with a lot to 3:32:28.360 --> 3:32:30.480 think about. And I didn't get to go on my 3:32:30.640 --> 3:32:33.800 rant about the structure of the Russian military visa VI 3:32:33.879 --> 3:32:35.640 their lack of an n c O COREP. But maybe 3:32:35.640 --> 3:32:37.520 we'll talk about that in the future. I'm sure we'll 3:32:37.560 --> 3:32:42.320 have enough time to talk about this in the future. Uh. Well, everyone, 3:32:42.680 --> 3:32:46.080 h I don't know, do do something productive? Yeah, do 3:32:46.200 --> 3:32:49.959 do something productive. I don't charge armored vehicles. Don't charge 3:32:50.080 --> 3:32:54.640 armored vehicles with paint. Maybe think about the different things 3:32:54.920 --> 3:32:58.000 you would like to get a bunch of people suddenly 3:32:58.160 --> 3:33:02.080 radicalized on Twitter to do in the immediate wake of 3:33:02.160 --> 3:33:05.000 a horrible climate disaster in which large numbers of folks 3:33:05.040 --> 3:33:07.640 are suddenly willing to take to the streets seemingly overnight. 3:33:07.720 --> 3:33:11.760 Maybe thinking about that and and trying to talking with 3:33:11.840 --> 3:33:14.400 your buddies about it, and being like, hey, if everybody 3:33:14.440 --> 3:33:17.000 gets out in the streets again, what kind of information 3:33:17.080 --> 3:33:18.920 do I want to spread? What would be good to 3:33:19.000 --> 3:33:21.560 get people talking about in that instance when they're suddenly 3:33:21.640 --> 3:33:24.120 listening for I don't know about two weeks. It feels 3:33:24.120 --> 3:33:29.200 like you get about two weeks to honestly, Yeah, Well, 3:33:29.879 --> 3:33:32.440 in the wake of the new I PCC report, we 3:33:32.520 --> 3:33:34.119 have what we should certainly have a lot to think about. 3:33:35.080 --> 3:33:55.959 All right, Bye bye, it's goblin mode. Welcome to Happen 3:33:56.080 --> 3:33:59.320 here a podcast that is today in goblin mode. Uh, 3:34:00.000 --> 3:34:01.520 you know what it's about you've her to say it 3:34:01.640 --> 3:34:06.240 like about twenty million times. But yeah, I'm your host, 3:34:06.320 --> 3:34:10.320 Christopher Wong and uh with me today we have Juniper, 3:34:10.440 --> 3:34:16.120 who is a really twitter ship post extraordinary extraordinaire, on 3:34:16.320 --> 3:34:18.960 to discuss language, media, culture, of the nature of reality, 3:34:19.000 --> 3:34:23.199 and Goblin Mode. Junifer, Welcome to the show. Hiy, how's 3:34:23.240 --> 3:34:26.039 it gone. It's going good. It's going much better. Since 3:34:26.080 --> 3:34:31.200 Goblin rode ceased control of the world, we are now 3:34:31.320 --> 3:34:36.600 living in the age of Mode. And Drew mar Show 3:34:36.680 --> 3:34:42.959 said this morning, apparently it's quite a time. I didn't 3:34:43.000 --> 3:34:47.280 realize just posting would like just posting would influence so 3:34:47.400 --> 3:34:50.080 much around me. I guess it's been an interesting time 3:34:50.200 --> 3:34:52.480 for sure. Yeah. So, so I wanted to talk to 3:34:52.560 --> 3:34:56.840 you about sort of the absurdity that is Goblin Mode. Um, 3:34:57.080 --> 3:34:58.840 and I want to hold off on talking about what 3:34:58.879 --> 3:35:01.360 Goblin Mode like is isn't for a bit because I 3:35:01.400 --> 3:35:03.920 think that's actually, weirdly the less interesting part. And I 3:35:04.000 --> 3:35:07.280 want to start with instead the story of how Goblin 3:35:07.320 --> 3:35:11.440 Mode became like a thing and why I am reading. Uh. 3:35:13.280 --> 3:35:15.320 I keep I keep like, every every time I look 3:35:15.320 --> 3:35:18.160 for more Goblin Mode headlines, there's more goblin mode headlines 3:35:18.720 --> 3:35:23.560 like the I think my favorite so far is from Bloomberg. 3:35:23.680 --> 3:35:26.960 It's a dieselent. Diesel prices have gone goblin mode. Forget 3:35:27.080 --> 3:35:30.280 crude oil. This could be the real energy emergency. Yeah, 3:35:30.360 --> 3:35:32.080 that that is by far one of my favorites to 3:35:32.520 --> 3:35:35.600 uh the full headline too, if you search for that 3:35:35.760 --> 3:35:39.000 one is it's what you said, but then it adds 3:35:39.040 --> 3:35:44.360 on thanks to the Ukraine War. An official Bloilberg headline 3:35:44.440 --> 3:35:48.640 with goblin mode and the Ukraine word. I gotta that's 3:35:48.640 --> 3:35:53.040 just by part of my favorite one amazing. The other 3:35:53.080 --> 3:35:55.840 part of three that's extremely funny is that so the 3:35:56.080 --> 3:35:59.119 people who are doing these articles, I keep getting asked, 3:35:59.160 --> 3:36:01.320 so someone someone's asking like an intern to find a 3:36:01.400 --> 3:36:03.680 picture of a goblin, and they keep posting pictures of orcs, 3:36:04.280 --> 3:36:10.840 which is like enormously funny to me. Okay, so I'm 3:36:10.840 --> 3:36:12.920 not sure what they're searching to get those. I don't know. 3:36:13.280 --> 3:36:18.680 It's really incredible, Okay, So yeah, I guess I should. 3:36:18.680 --> 3:36:20.840 So we should start from the beginning of this story, 3:36:21.000 --> 3:36:23.800 which is, yeah, can you talk about your ship post 3:36:23.959 --> 3:36:26.440 and uh, what you were thinking at the time when 3:36:26.480 --> 3:36:29.879 you made a ship post that randomly like has has 3:36:29.920 --> 3:36:36.960 had months long ripple effects on the world. Sure, I 3:36:37.879 --> 3:36:41.200 think you were right though, like the post itself, and 3:36:41.360 --> 3:36:44.160 that's like the least interesting part of all of goblin 3:36:44.240 --> 3:36:47.600 mode in my opinion as well, Like just seeing the 3:36:47.680 --> 3:36:50.160 ripple effect is what's been super interesting and really funny 3:36:50.200 --> 3:36:55.080 to me. But um sure yeah the post. Um basically, 3:36:55.200 --> 3:36:58.760 I think it was like the day that um what 3:36:59.200 --> 3:37:02.640 Kanye West and Julia Fox, which there's a quick note, 3:37:02.680 --> 3:37:05.280 I've never heard of Julia Fox before any of this. 3:37:05.920 --> 3:37:08.840 So I like sometimes if like you know, Twitter is 3:37:08.879 --> 3:37:11.520 all talking about one thing, the most recent thing being 3:37:11.640 --> 3:37:14.040 like the Will Smith slap, like everyone's talking about that. 3:37:14.560 --> 3:37:16.760 So whenever like some like big event like that is 3:37:16.840 --> 3:37:19.120 happening and everyone's posting about it, I try to like 3:37:19.320 --> 3:37:22.240 think of some creative different posts I can do, you know, 3:37:22.400 --> 3:37:24.760 just to get in on the the discourse or whatever 3:37:24.800 --> 3:37:28.040 you wanna call it. So I just I really don't 3:37:28.080 --> 3:37:30.640 know what compelled me to make a fake headline, But basically, 3:37:30.720 --> 3:37:33.120 I just I just decided to search. I think I 3:37:33.160 --> 3:37:34.840 was driving home from work and I just decided to 3:37:34.879 --> 3:37:38.720 search like Kanye West, Julia Fox, and I just found 3:37:38.800 --> 3:37:41.800 the first headline and I just edited it to say, um, 3:37:42.160 --> 3:37:46.200 Kanye West doesn't like it when Julia Fox goes goneling basically, 3:37:46.240 --> 3:37:47.720 and that's why they broke up. That was that was 3:37:47.760 --> 3:37:51.119 the whole lessons of the of the post itself. Um, 3:37:51.320 --> 3:37:54.640 and I really didn't think too deeply about it beyond 3:37:54.840 --> 3:37:58.320 just making the post, and it just it caught fire 3:37:58.440 --> 3:38:00.520 with like I guess what we would probably all normally 3:38:00.760 --> 3:38:04.400 normally Twitter like people that aren't even like necessarily leftists 3:38:04.520 --> 3:38:07.480 or anything like us. Um, it just really caught a 3:38:07.520 --> 3:38:11.280 hold with the whole of Twitter and pretty much like 3:38:11.600 --> 3:38:13.200 most of the people that saw it. You can you 3:38:13.240 --> 3:38:15.400 can go back and check the replies. Most people think 3:38:15.440 --> 3:38:20.560 it's real at the time and replying about all things 3:38:20.560 --> 3:38:23.160 it's real, and no one, like hardly anyone verified it. 3:38:23.520 --> 3:38:26.440 It was like kind of insane to see yeah and 3:38:27.000 --> 3:38:30.000 just just cost yeah, I think it's funny because again, 3:38:30.080 --> 3:38:31.600 like you could very you could you could just google 3:38:31.720 --> 3:38:34.320 this right, Like you can just google it and it'd 3:38:34.320 --> 3:38:35.560 be like, oh, wait, hol on, this isn't real. But 3:38:35.640 --> 3:38:41.160 like no one did that, and it was like, yeah, 3:38:41.280 --> 3:38:43.760 like you could have just easily searched the main part 3:38:43.760 --> 3:38:45.840 of the headline, like Kanye West to Julia Fox. It 3:38:45.959 --> 3:38:49.600 was literally the second or third headlines you can have 3:38:49.720 --> 3:38:52.440 found the same website, same author, but seeing that it 3:38:52.560 --> 3:38:56.680 wasn't the correct headline. Although that does remind me when 3:38:57.120 --> 3:39:00.480 there was the initial article about my post um, I 3:39:00.600 --> 3:39:04.840 forget who wrote it at this point, I think I was, Yes, 3:39:04.959 --> 3:39:08.400 that's right, it was the focus they they they for 3:39:08.520 --> 3:39:11.080 some reason, it made the assumption when they decided when 3:39:11.120 --> 3:39:15.000 they decided to talk about my tweet that the website, 3:39:15.800 --> 3:39:19.720 like the headline that I made made up the original 3:39:19.840 --> 3:39:23.080 website like edited that part out. So they thought that 3:39:23.200 --> 3:39:26.800 my headline was real, but it was just and taken away. 3:39:27.120 --> 3:39:31.200 And so that also affected what some people thought about 3:39:31.240 --> 3:39:33.080 it too, Like they thought a lot of people thought 3:39:33.120 --> 3:39:35.600 it was really real. That's that's what's insane to me 3:39:35.640 --> 3:39:39.240 about this. Yeah, and like you and like like Vogue 3:39:39.360 --> 3:39:41.400 like picked this up. This was just like a thing 3:39:41.959 --> 3:39:44.920 that that like everyone believes us real. Everyone was just 3:39:45.000 --> 3:39:48.920 reporting on it as news and there's so much like 3:39:49.879 --> 3:39:53.120 there's so much like incredible stuff about this, like part 3:39:53.160 --> 3:39:58.400 of it, you know, so what if the articles that 3:39:58.600 --> 3:40:00.960 that gets published about this after so like there's this 3:40:01.000 --> 3:40:03.400 initial period where everyone is running around going like oh 3:40:03.480 --> 3:40:06.280 my god, it was goblin Mode, and then Julia Fox 3:40:06.560 --> 3:40:09.640 has to make a statement that's like, no, there was 3:40:09.720 --> 3:40:13.080 no goblin Mode. No one said this. Yeah, yeah, that's 3:40:13.160 --> 3:40:16.320 That's the interesting about the evolution of goblin Mode, like 3:40:16.600 --> 3:40:20.400 stemming from my post specifically, is at first the coverage 3:40:20.440 --> 3:40:23.120 was talking about whether my post was real or fake 3:40:23.240 --> 3:40:26.959 and talking about that aspect of it. But as time 3:40:27.000 --> 3:40:29.200 has gone on, it's kind of evolved away from that. 3:40:29.320 --> 3:40:31.920 Like you you won't see any goblin Mode article talk 3:40:32.000 --> 3:40:35.400 about the original like Julia Fox tweet that jump started 3:40:35.440 --> 3:40:38.279 this whole thing anymore. It's kind of like shifted away 3:40:39.160 --> 3:40:42.640 from that initial that initial post, which I found really 3:40:42.680 --> 3:40:46.640 interesting that that's what sustaining this. I feel like, yeah, 3:40:46.879 --> 3:40:51.800 I wanted to read a uh, I wanted to read 3:40:52.200 --> 3:40:54.680 a passage from one of the art I don't know 3:40:54.680 --> 3:40:57.920 why I'm calling it a passage. It's just like a sentence, 3:40:58.240 --> 3:41:00.440 but read part of one of the art goals that 3:41:00.520 --> 3:41:02.520 that came from up from the the initial search, which 3:41:02.600 --> 3:41:06.360 is from the streetwear company called high Snobby. Don't tell 3:41:06.400 --> 3:41:10.080 me if I'm like pronouncing that wrong. Uh well, okay, 3:41:10.120 --> 3:41:12.040 that's not not to Twitter. If I'm pronouncing that wrong. 3:41:12.280 --> 3:41:18.760 My Twitter is at I right, okay, yell there, Um yeah, 3:41:18.879 --> 3:41:21.160 but I want I want to read this quote because 3:41:21.160 --> 3:41:23.400 I think it's interesting. So the article, they have this 3:41:23.480 --> 3:41:25.640 whole thing that's like, Okay, they get to the denial, 3:41:25.760 --> 3:41:27.560 they post your tweet about like, oh my god, I 3:41:27.560 --> 3:41:29.320 can't believe Julia Fox had to respond to this, and 3:41:29.360 --> 3:41:32.320 then they say, I'm not saying Fox was lying, but 3:41:32.440 --> 3:41:35.959 wearing a borderline not suited for work dress, a purse 3:41:36.040 --> 3:41:39.160 trimmed and human DNA and d I y I make 3:41:39.240 --> 3:41:41.880 up to an Oscar's after party? Is goblin mode to 3:41:41.959 --> 3:41:45.800 a t? And I think this brings up an interesting question, 3:41:46.200 --> 3:41:49.080 which is to what extent was goblin mode real in 3:41:49.160 --> 3:41:51.920 the first place before You're sort of mean to went 3:41:52.040 --> 3:41:58.360 went viral? So like the phrase itself, you mean yeah, yeah, 3:41:58.440 --> 3:42:02.000 like I want part of the phrase existed before my post. Yeah, 3:42:02.080 --> 3:42:05.000 And I think it was also like what were you thinking, Like, 3:42:05.120 --> 3:42:07.400 did you have like a conception of what goblin mode 3:42:07.720 --> 3:42:13.440 like was before he made the post? So so the 3:42:13.600 --> 3:42:16.320 only thing I had in my mind at that point. Um, 3:42:16.640 --> 3:42:19.920 it's it stems from specifically, Um, do you do you 3:42:20.000 --> 3:42:24.360 know the user on Twitter hottie pants? Do you happen 3:42:24.360 --> 3:42:29.080 to know that guy, I don't think so now he 3:42:29.200 --> 3:42:31.600 goes by I think his ad is like punished Pants 3:42:31.680 --> 3:42:35.040 or something like that. But anyways, he around that time, 3:42:35.080 --> 3:42:37.360 he was posting a lot about like goblins. He was 3:42:37.480 --> 3:42:39.760 He would post a lot about like goblin time and 3:42:39.840 --> 3:42:41.480 like it's oh, it's goblin time, and he would just 3:42:41.520 --> 3:42:43.560 make like a bunch of just like posts like that. 3:42:44.040 --> 3:42:46.000 So goblins were on my mind at that point. And 3:42:46.080 --> 3:42:49.560 then I forget his user name, but his um I 3:42:49.640 --> 3:42:54.120 think his user name is um uncontrolled. I for I 3:42:54.160 --> 3:42:56.560 forget his user I'll have to tell you afterwards or something. 3:42:57.120 --> 3:42:58.800 I I don't remember off the top of my head, 3:42:59.200 --> 3:43:01.720 but he he may a post that went viral, uh, 3:43:02.000 --> 3:43:05.560 something to the effect of like um, your honor UM. 3:43:06.040 --> 3:43:07.720 I was going goblin mode at that time, you know 3:43:07.800 --> 3:43:11.280 that format that's like you're in the court, but excuses like, oh, 3:43:11.360 --> 3:43:13.840 I'm going goblin mode. It really in my head. That's 3:43:13.879 --> 3:43:17.360 really the only reference I had, So I didn't make 3:43:17.440 --> 3:43:19.240 up the phrase. A lot of people think I made 3:43:19.280 --> 3:43:22.640 up the phrase goblin mode, which I definitely did not. Um, 3:43:23.840 --> 3:43:26.039 but I think just there was a lot of people 3:43:26.080 --> 3:43:28.400 posting about about goblins around that time, like early in 3:43:28.440 --> 3:43:31.720 mid March, and I just in my mind, I was like, oh, 3:43:31.760 --> 3:43:34.520 you know, I'm just gonna say Goblin Mode on this 3:43:34.879 --> 3:43:37.360 this ship post Aboulia Fox. I don't. I really don't 3:43:37.400 --> 3:43:39.600 know why. It's just the first thing that popped in 3:43:39.680 --> 3:43:41.920 my head. And whenever something pops in my head, like 3:43:42.160 --> 3:43:44.119 a tweet idea, and I laughed myself. I'm like, okay, 3:43:44.160 --> 3:43:46.320 I should post it. I don't know, and it seemed 3:43:46.360 --> 3:43:50.440 to work. Did you end up so one of these things? 3:43:50.480 --> 3:43:52.040 What are these things? I think is really interesting? Is 3:43:52.120 --> 3:43:55.080 that right? So okay, so you have you have your 3:43:55.120 --> 3:43:57.960 first wave of like it's the goblin Mode thing, and 3:43:58.000 --> 3:43:59.720 then you have your second wave articles that are trying 3:43:59.720 --> 3:44:03.200 to blaine what goblin Mode is. And I was I 3:44:03.280 --> 3:44:05.440 was wondering if if you'd see if you'd actually even 3:44:05.600 --> 3:44:07.880 seen the post. I just like I linked to the 3:44:08.000 --> 3:44:11.320 chat um. There was like like the thing I'd seen 3:44:11.360 --> 3:44:15.240 from goblin Mode before thislike all started, was just like Reddit. 3:44:15.320 --> 3:44:17.840 It was someone on Twitter had a tweet that went 3:44:17.920 --> 3:44:20.600 viral about goblin Mode and it was about just like 3:44:20.760 --> 3:44:22.560 someone It was about this Reddit post of like someone 3:44:22.640 --> 3:44:28.080 creeping around their house and pretending acting like a goblin. Yes, yes, 3:44:28.560 --> 3:44:31.040 So I didn't see that until I made my post, 3:44:31.520 --> 3:44:34.800 like in my initial because I think someone linked it 3:44:34.920 --> 3:44:37.120 under my post and I was like, oh, Ship, this 3:44:37.160 --> 3:44:38.920 is just like a thing, Like this is actually like 3:44:39.000 --> 3:44:41.080 a thing. And then I started popping off more because 3:44:41.120 --> 3:44:43.560 people saw that reply. I'm real like, oh, Ship, this 3:44:43.720 --> 3:44:46.600 is like actually a thing. And to my surprise, that 3:44:46.680 --> 3:44:49.320 like totally worked out for me, like everything kind of 3:44:49.400 --> 3:44:53.360 just came together and it really insane fashion. Oh that's 3:44:53.360 --> 3:44:55.640 another tweet to the one that you linked the That's 3:44:55.680 --> 3:44:57.600 when I was going, that's when I was in goblin mode. 3:44:57.879 --> 3:45:00.880 That came before my tweet too. Had you had you 3:45:01.000 --> 3:45:05.160 seen that one before you made it? I followed her, 3:45:06.240 --> 3:45:08.480 I followed Telgore. I might have seen it. I don't remember. 3:45:08.560 --> 3:45:12.039 I remember the other one I was referencing before. Um, 3:45:12.320 --> 3:45:14.440 I might have seen that one now, yeah, like I 3:45:15.000 --> 3:45:16.960 I think like that. That was what was interesting to 3:45:17.000 --> 3:45:20.640 me about this was that, like the moment it went viral, 3:45:21.120 --> 3:45:24.920 there was this whole sort of like attempt because there 3:45:24.959 --> 3:45:26.880 was an attempt to figure out what it is, and 3:45:26.920 --> 3:45:29.360 then there was an attempt to like back project a 3:45:29.440 --> 3:45:31.280 history on it, and so you get a lot of 3:45:31.320 --> 3:45:32.600 these articles and you get a lot of people like 3:45:32.760 --> 3:45:34.160 I don't know, like I would talk to people about 3:45:34.200 --> 3:45:36.520 this and they would like, you know, okay, so they 3:45:36.520 --> 3:45:38.200 do this thing or it's like okay, so they go 3:45:38.320 --> 3:45:40.960 to know your meme, they look at the Google trends, 3:45:41.200 --> 3:45:44.840 and then like the people sort of like, you know, okay, 3:45:44.879 --> 3:45:47.200 Like there was an urban Dictionary thing from like two 3:45:47.280 --> 3:45:49.320 thousand nine that was like a completely like a weird 3:45:49.320 --> 3:45:52.120 sex thing. It was like completely unrelated to this, but 3:45:52.200 --> 3:45:56.480 it was interesting to me the way that people like, Okay, 3:45:56.520 --> 3:45:59.840 so you have this thing that goes viral, right, and 3:46:00.160 --> 3:46:03.480 like you're just sucking around like there's no act, Like 3:46:03.560 --> 3:46:08.680 it's just sounds cool. But then like yeah, there's an 3:46:08.680 --> 3:46:11.160 extent which it becomes this like you know, it gets 3:46:11.200 --> 3:46:13.640 into the sort of like viralty machine, and so you 3:46:13.720 --> 3:46:16.080 have all these journalists who like have to cover it 3:46:16.280 --> 3:46:18.120 right because like, you know, the the way the journalism 3:46:18.160 --> 3:46:21.520 bottle works is okay, so you have this trend, right, 3:46:22.000 --> 3:46:24.160 people can see it trending. You see something on Twitter, 3:46:25.040 --> 3:46:27.520 you do like four sets of Googles, and you write 3:46:27.520 --> 3:46:30.560 an article about it, and it's like, well, okay, because 3:46:30.560 --> 3:46:32.680 they're trying to you're trying to capitalize on on the 3:46:32.720 --> 3:46:34.720 clicks as fast as possible. So when someone googles what 3:46:34.840 --> 3:46:36.560 is goblin mode, it's like, okay, your thing comes up. 3:46:37.160 --> 3:46:39.080 But it's interesting because it's like it's like they have 3:46:39.160 --> 3:46:42.800 to fill the content in because there isn't any Yeah. Yeah, 3:46:42.840 --> 3:46:45.440 that's what what was interesting about the specific that first one, 3:46:45.520 --> 3:46:47.680 the focus article, it was just a lot of like 3:46:47.840 --> 3:46:51.800 filling in where there was really nothing. Yeah, and that's 3:46:51.840 --> 3:46:54.360 what's interesting about that. Yeah. And then and then like 3:46:54.480 --> 3:46:57.280 after that, like all the other articles are like you 3:46:57.360 --> 3:46:59.120 get to see this proliferation sort of of how the 3:46:59.160 --> 3:47:01.760 media works where it's okay, so you have the initial article, 3:47:01.800 --> 3:47:04.400 the initial article google some stuff and it's basically just 3:47:04.480 --> 3:47:07.280 making it up because they're they're trying to like give 3:47:07.360 --> 3:47:09.960 coherence or like give am meeting to an empty signifier. 3:47:10.040 --> 3:47:12.800 And then after that, it's like all of the other 3:47:12.920 --> 3:47:16.040 articles are just copying off of the first article, and 3:47:16.160 --> 3:47:19.440 you get this like Ora boris of like everyone just 3:47:19.600 --> 3:47:21.520 is repeating the same thing over and over again, and 3:47:21.560 --> 3:47:24.160 none of them seem to understand that, like it was 3:47:24.879 --> 3:47:27.120 not that the thing that they originally talking about was 3:47:27.200 --> 3:47:34.560 just kind of like that's really all it was, and 3:47:35.760 --> 3:47:38.160 it's it is interesting to see how it is just 3:47:38.280 --> 3:47:41.480 able to proliferate off of as you as you were saying, 3:47:41.520 --> 3:47:44.560 they just google search urban, they find an urban dictionary, 3:47:44.600 --> 3:47:47.600 and it's like my article urban dictionary is is a 3:47:47.640 --> 3:47:52.120 good source. Yeah, and like I think this this is 3:47:52.240 --> 3:47:53.640 I mean, I think there's there's like a few interesting 3:47:53.680 --> 3:47:57.040 things here, one of which is about how yeah, like 3:47:57.080 --> 3:47:59.000 I had this before, Like I'm not sure if I 3:47:59.000 --> 3:48:00.840 actually talked about this on the show. So the day 3:48:00.879 --> 3:48:04.760 of the Atlantis shooting, Garrison and I spent a lot 3:48:04.840 --> 3:48:07.720 of time trying to like track down the shooter, and 3:48:08.320 --> 3:48:10.200 there was there was this like fake Facebook post that 3:48:10.280 --> 3:48:13.360 was going around and you know, Garrison I has spent 3:48:13.400 --> 3:48:14.600 like a lot of time looking for this guy and 3:48:14.640 --> 3:48:16.600 we okay, well we realized that this guy just doesn't 3:48:16.600 --> 3:48:19.040 have a Facebook, right, and so we were like so 3:48:19.160 --> 3:48:20.560 like I was like look at this, Like I saw 3:48:20.640 --> 3:48:21.920 his fake Facebook post and I was like, oh, this 3:48:22.040 --> 3:48:26.680 is fake. And then like a bunch of a bunch 3:48:26.760 --> 3:48:28.840 of like a bunch of like actual journalists like found 3:48:28.959 --> 3:48:31.160 you know people because journalists have been passing around the 3:48:31.200 --> 3:48:34.120 fake Facebook post as like this is a suppost alleged 3:48:34.160 --> 3:48:35.400 to be a thing, and then and then suddenly they 3:48:35.440 --> 3:48:37.080 were like, oh, hey this is fake. Hey you can 3:48:37.120 --> 3:48:40.160 see all these things like oh look, it's like uh, 3:48:41.640 --> 3:48:46.440 you know, like there was like the it was pretty 3:48:46.480 --> 3:48:48.400 clear of it, like his face had been copied and 3:48:48.440 --> 3:48:51.080 pasted into like a thing that's it was supposed to 3:48:51.120 --> 3:48:52.680 look like a Facebook post because there was all these 3:48:52.720 --> 3:48:54.240 like minor details about that, which is wrong, and it 3:48:54.320 --> 3:48:57.440 was like, okay, so this isn't real. But the media 3:48:57.520 --> 3:49:00.440 cycle of it was like all of these people saw 3:49:00.600 --> 3:49:02.960 my Twitter post that was like this is fake, and 3:49:03.000 --> 3:49:04.600 then they just wrote a story off of it and 3:49:04.680 --> 3:49:06.640 like never mentioned that that that they literally got it 3:49:06.760 --> 3:49:11.200 from like me fucking around on Twitter. Like it's like 3:49:13.000 --> 3:49:14.760 and it's like and it's like you look at this 3:49:14.800 --> 3:49:20.400 stuff and the extent to which these people are just 3:49:21.200 --> 3:49:22.680 like these people who are journalist, who are you know, 3:49:22.680 --> 3:49:25.520 supposed to people journalists are just like woefully unprepared. Even 3:49:25.560 --> 3:49:28.680 people even who people who are extremely online like wind 3:49:28.800 --> 3:49:35.200 up being woefully unprepared to deal with like anything, like 3:49:35.520 --> 3:49:38.040 they're woefully unprepared to deal with anything of any complexity 3:49:38.200 --> 3:49:44.280 or deal or like figure out that they're being like hoaxed. Yeah, yeah, no, 3:49:44.400 --> 3:49:46.600 you're you're you're really right about that. I mean, I 3:49:46.640 --> 3:49:48.640 mean I think this it's I don't know what I 3:49:48.680 --> 3:49:52.240 would call this phenomena, but there's definitely something there where 3:49:52.280 --> 3:49:55.840 it's like they we'll see something like I don't know, 3:49:55.960 --> 3:49:58.960 and I don't know what it is about specifically Twitter 3:49:59.120 --> 3:50:01.040 that like I feel like it's where a lot of 3:50:01.200 --> 3:50:04.240 people get news just in general, but I feel like 3:50:04.240 --> 3:50:06.760 a lot of journalists just assume anything that they see. 3:50:07.280 --> 3:50:10.840 Maybe I'm over generalizing, but if they see something on Twitter, 3:50:11.480 --> 3:50:14.200 even if it's like a joke, like they'll just assume 3:50:14.280 --> 3:50:16.600 it's real or something I'm not. I'm not entirely sure. 3:50:16.800 --> 3:50:19.360 Like it's super easy to make a fake post. I 3:50:19.440 --> 3:50:21.520 do it all the time. I make all sorts of 3:50:21.760 --> 3:50:23.960 like fake fake things. Most of them are more obvious 3:50:23.960 --> 3:50:27.280 than Goblin But I guess, but I don't know that 3:50:27.400 --> 3:50:31.240 they're I don't want to say journalists are too trusting. Yeah, well, 3:50:31.280 --> 3:50:34.960 and but I will say, like there are times where 3:50:34.960 --> 3:50:37.480 there's genuine Like when when you first started posting the 3:50:37.600 --> 3:50:40.440 headlines of like the actual Twitter articles that were about 3:50:40.440 --> 3:50:42.240 Goblin mode, I like I didn't do about it looking 3:50:42.400 --> 3:50:45.040 up because I just assumed they were fake. Yeah, it 3:50:45.200 --> 3:50:48.960 was like a lot of people told me, Like I 3:50:49.040 --> 3:50:52.560 think specifically, the the one that like most of my 3:50:52.680 --> 3:50:55.320 followers realized that they weren't fake anymore was the one 3:50:55.400 --> 3:51:00.240 that was like, um as a disabled uh them in 3:51:00.640 --> 3:51:05.760 goblin mode. This goblin mode trend is really problematic, and 3:51:05.920 --> 3:51:08.240 people people decided to look that one up and we're like, oh, 3:51:08.320 --> 3:51:10.120 it's real. And then everyone was like, wait, we're all 3:51:10.160 --> 3:51:11.920 these other ones that you were posting real And I'm 3:51:11.920 --> 3:51:19.440 like they were all real, Julia Foxlan real. It was 3:51:20.800 --> 3:51:23.440 agencies have been all these news organizations. I've been writing 3:51:23.440 --> 3:51:28.040 all this insane shit about nothing. Yeah, and there's there's 3:51:28.160 --> 3:51:30.000 you know, I mean, I think that this one is 3:51:30.040 --> 3:51:31.920 funny just because like yeah, I mean like it's goblin 3:51:31.960 --> 3:51:34.280 mode right, like it's it's it's it's just funny, like 3:51:34.360 --> 3:51:36.160 there's no like you know. But but I mean, I 3:51:36.200 --> 3:51:38.280 think that there's an interesting thing that happens with with 3:51:38.440 --> 3:51:41.200 the specifically the disabilities one, because the disabilities one isn't 3:51:41.600 --> 3:51:45.160 like it's basically about something completely different that the Goblin 3:51:45.240 --> 3:51:47.480 mode things spawned, which is that like, like the the 3:51:47.600 --> 3:51:50.760 other thing that happened with Goblin Mode. Was that Okay, 3:51:50.800 --> 3:51:53.280 So people saw Goblin Mode and then physicularly on like 3:51:53.360 --> 3:51:55.920 TikTok Um. I don't I don't know if they knew 3:51:55.960 --> 3:51:59.880 where it came from, but like people like people turn 3:52:00.120 --> 3:52:02.920 just gobblin mode into an actual thing where like it 3:52:03.040 --> 3:52:06.640 became this thing about like I like, I I think 3:52:06.640 --> 3:52:09.400 I think this is also influenced by like some of 3:52:09.480 --> 3:52:11.800 the like ship post answers that you gave the media 3:52:11.880 --> 3:52:14.200 people that were like gobblin Boe could be whatever you want. 3:52:15.080 --> 3:52:17.880 It's when you aren't awake of the padel or like 3:52:17.960 --> 3:52:20.240 you're not doing your makeup in the pandemic or whatever. 3:52:20.880 --> 3:52:27.200 Like yeah, but but but it's interesting that field like that. 3:52:27.760 --> 3:52:30.160 I really don't know if the TikTok's thing came before 3:52:30.240 --> 3:52:35.400 or after. I think it's after. Yeah, from what I've seen, 3:52:35.840 --> 3:52:38.080 it's it seems like it actually became a thing after. 3:52:38.200 --> 3:52:40.000 And that was really interesting to me too, because it 3:52:40.120 --> 3:52:44.840 was like it's this way in which, like you know, okay, 3:52:44.920 --> 3:52:48.920 so you start running into these sort of like fundamental 3:52:49.000 --> 3:52:51.800 problems about the nature of reality where it's like, okay, 3:52:51.840 --> 3:52:54.960 so we made this thing that is fake, right, but 3:52:55.120 --> 3:52:58.680 then it became real because enough enough people believed it 3:52:58.800 --> 3:53:01.960 was real that it turned into a thing that people 3:53:02.000 --> 3:53:03.640 actually use to describe stuff. And then you know that 3:53:03.720 --> 3:53:05.880 that's how you get to like you get a bunch 3:53:05.920 --> 3:53:08.960 of people complaining about how like there was an article 3:53:09.040 --> 3:53:12.320 that was like the Great resignation and going Goblin mode 3:53:12.400 --> 3:53:14.280 or like the two great threats to employers as they 3:53:14.320 --> 3:53:19.520 try to force people back to work. Like yeah, it's 3:53:19.600 --> 3:53:24.560 it's like the goblin mode, like self manifested into reality. 3:53:24.720 --> 3:53:26.880 Like I feel like a lot of journalists are saying, 3:53:27.000 --> 3:53:29.560 like people being lazy and like, you know how the 3:53:30.000 --> 3:53:32.280 whole meme of like, oh, no one wants to work anymore. 3:53:32.680 --> 3:53:34.080 I feel like a lot of people are trying to 3:53:34.160 --> 3:53:36.800 like attributing like oh, not wanting to work and being 3:53:36.880 --> 3:53:40.480 lazy to goblin mode, and it's it's self manifested through 3:53:40.520 --> 3:53:42.920 the media or TikTok or whatever whatever it might be. 3:53:43.480 --> 3:53:46.520 I actually don't know, but it's it's become a thing 3:53:46.640 --> 3:53:49.760 now and in a really strange way. Yeah, yeah, And 3:53:49.880 --> 3:53:51.280 I think I think this is like this is an 3:53:51.320 --> 3:53:53.160 interesting way of looking like, you know, like this was 3:53:53.280 --> 3:53:57.080 the whole sort of like like in in terms of 3:53:57.200 --> 3:54:02.200 like okay, in so far as posting can actually affect reality, 3:54:02.360 --> 3:54:04.760 which it can, but not as much as people seem 3:54:04.800 --> 3:54:07.360 to think, like there are there are there are people 3:54:07.400 --> 3:54:10.560 who like seem to think that like the three letter 3:54:10.600 --> 3:54:12.880 agencies care what they post on Twitter, which is like 3:54:13.720 --> 3:54:15.280 it's like no, no, no, hold on, hold on if 3:54:15.320 --> 3:54:18.280 if we post correctly interventions, it won't happen. It's like 3:54:19.400 --> 3:54:22.360 if you've seen the c I A like like like 3:54:22.480 --> 3:54:25.960 there's there's this whole thing where it's like you know, 3:54:25.960 --> 3:54:28.800 I mean this, it's okay, this this is gonna be 3:54:28.920 --> 3:54:30.760 the like someone's gonna pull this out of context and 3:54:30.880 --> 3:54:32.560 be like, hey, look at Don Chris is but like 3:54:32.600 --> 3:54:33.760 you know, like this is this is kind of what 3:54:33.800 --> 3:54:35.640 happened with Trump, which like this is this isn't like 3:54:35.720 --> 3:54:37.360 what the meme magic was like if if you just 3:54:37.520 --> 3:54:40.080 meme something long enough, you can kind of turn it 3:54:40.120 --> 3:54:43.160 into reality by just sort of convincing enough people that 3:54:43.320 --> 3:54:45.880 it's real, that it and and you know and once 3:54:45.880 --> 3:54:48.080 you've done that, like you you have effectively made the 3:54:48.160 --> 3:54:52.640 thing real. Right. It was interesting about this one is 3:54:52.840 --> 3:54:54.120 it's just like it's like a lot of people like 3:54:54.160 --> 3:54:55.840 do that on purpose, right, Like this is how this 3:54:55.920 --> 3:54:57.560 is like there's a lot of propaganda stuff that works 3:54:57.600 --> 3:54:58.840 like this or like, you know, this is like what 3:54:58.960 --> 3:55:02.440 the meme before jan Trump bullshit was, Like you just 3:55:02.560 --> 3:55:06.680 this like completely like as a joke on accidents. Yeah, 3:55:06.720 --> 3:55:08.360 I didn't. I didn't intend this. I just mean I 3:55:08.720 --> 3:55:10.800 just wanted to make a one off joke. Yeah, I 3:55:10.840 --> 3:55:12.880 didn't think that would happen. But if you're you're you're 3:55:12.920 --> 3:55:15.200 totally right about the whole, Like I don't. I don't 3:55:15.200 --> 3:55:17.360 know how much like the Trump magic was really a 3:55:17.480 --> 3:55:21.160 self manifestation of him kind of just winning the election 3:55:21.240 --> 3:55:24.120 and keep becoming popular with a certain people. But it 3:55:24.200 --> 3:55:28.040 definitely feels like like that self manifestation of like posting 3:55:28.360 --> 3:55:31.640 to a certain extent really can become real if it 3:55:31.760 --> 3:55:33.880 just like hits a certain ziteguist of some sort and 3:55:34.080 --> 3:55:36.200 like they just didn't. I think a crucial part of 3:55:36.280 --> 3:55:37.680 it is it needs to get picked up by the 3:55:37.760 --> 3:55:42.240 media and taken seriously by journalists specifically, because the thing 3:55:42.320 --> 3:55:44.880 that really, uh, I feel like broke the camel's back 3:55:45.040 --> 3:55:48.960 for Goblin about specifically was the first journalist that reached 3:55:48.960 --> 3:55:51.640 out to me because she she wanted to interview me 3:55:51.800 --> 3:55:54.680 about the whole. The whole experience, like and and her 3:55:54.720 --> 3:55:56.840 coverage of it was about the whole fake mame thing 3:55:56.880 --> 3:55:59.360 and then how it became sort of a thing in 3:55:59.760 --> 3:56:05.440 that aspect um, and then um from there, they all 3:56:05.960 --> 3:56:08.680 a lot of different journalists and websites referred back to 3:56:08.800 --> 3:56:11.120 that article, and now it seems to be the one 3:56:11.240 --> 3:56:14.720 that everyone's referring to now is the Guardian article about 3:56:14.760 --> 3:56:17.000 it that seems to be like the media's favorite piece 3:56:17.040 --> 3:56:19.280 about it, which is the one that talks more about 3:56:19.320 --> 3:56:22.680 it being like a lifestyle trend. And I think that's 3:56:22.720 --> 3:56:25.600 where it really went off, is when like some people 3:56:27.120 --> 3:56:29.920 took in the TikTok aspect of it and kind of 3:56:29.960 --> 3:56:32.480 manifested it that way. I think it's a couple of 3:56:32.520 --> 3:56:35.320 interesting political consequences of this, one of which is that like, 3:56:36.760 --> 3:56:39.880 like Twitter as a platform isn't really I mean, since 3:56:39.920 --> 3:56:42.360 Trump got banned, it's kind of like it hasn't really 3:56:42.520 --> 3:56:47.800 been where most like stuff is happening, like TikTok is exploding. 3:56:48.080 --> 3:56:49.920 I mean, you still have like the boomers on Facebook, 3:56:50.080 --> 3:56:52.440 Like it hasn't like it hasn't been the sort of 3:56:52.480 --> 3:56:55.240 like driving force of politics that normally is. But the 3:56:55.360 --> 3:56:56.840 one thing that it has is that all of the 3:56:56.920 --> 3:57:00.400 journalists are still on there, and that means that yeah, 3:57:00.400 --> 3:57:02.280 like there's all these weird political consequences. Were like, yeah, 3:57:02.280 --> 3:57:04.840 you can sort of like like you can just sort 3:57:04.880 --> 3:57:09.080 of will things into existence by convincing journalists that it's real. 3:57:10.120 --> 3:57:13.960 And that's I think really scary in a lot of ways, 3:57:14.720 --> 3:57:16.720 because you know, like the people who are really really 3:57:16.720 --> 3:57:18.560 good at the sort of manipulation are right wingers, and 3:57:18.640 --> 3:57:21.440 right wingers could have sort of like like I don't know, 3:57:21.520 --> 3:57:23.560 like I people are probably mad about me for this, 3:57:23.640 --> 3:57:25.160 but like one of the things that I remember from 3:57:25.240 --> 3:57:29.840 like God was just two dozen sixteen. It was like 3:57:29.920 --> 3:57:34.600 there was this whole discourse about like, uh, like there's 3:57:34.600 --> 3:57:36.560 a bunch of like all a bunch of people are 3:57:36.600 --> 3:57:38.720 really mad about like there being a black stonone trooper 3:57:38.800 --> 3:57:45.480 and Star Wars, yeah, the whole Yeah, it's interesting about it. 3:57:45.560 --> 3:57:48.840 Was like yeah, I think I think that was just yeah, yeah, 3:57:49.080 --> 3:57:50.680 there there. There's the thing that was interesting about it 3:57:50.760 --> 3:57:53.240 was like so I know people who like who like 3:57:53.760 --> 3:57:55.800 looked into it beforehand, and it was like the only 3:57:55.840 --> 3:57:58.240 people who were talking about this it was like people 3:57:58.280 --> 3:58:00.520 who were confused because they thought that Star Troopers were 3:58:00.520 --> 3:58:03.920 all clones and we're like wait, why wait? And then 3:58:04.040 --> 3:58:05.680 and the other thing there are other group of people 3:58:05.680 --> 3:58:09.360 who were mad about this was storm Front, and store 3:58:09.440 --> 3:58:12.680 Front was able to like turn this into like like 3:58:13.040 --> 3:58:15.080 a discourse, like they able to they were able to 3:58:15.080 --> 3:58:16.840 convince journalists like this was a real thing that like 3:58:16.880 --> 3:58:18.560 a significant number people are mad about, and then it 3:58:18.640 --> 3:58:20.480 like actually turned into a thing that a stnificant number 3:58:20.480 --> 3:58:22.080 of people are were mad about. Because you can sort 3:58:22.080 --> 3:58:24.760 of just like like you you can start these like 3:58:25.200 --> 3:58:26.840 panics and like this is one of the things we're 3:58:26.840 --> 3:58:29.560 talking about in our trans episodes where like, you know, 3:58:30.920 --> 3:58:34.640 a fairly small network of well funded people can cause 3:58:35.480 --> 3:58:39.880 like enormous swass of the US to just lose their 3:58:40.000 --> 3:58:44.320 ship and get extremely violence and get like you know, 3:58:44.400 --> 3:58:47.280 and and the specific thing they're mad about changes like 3:58:48.080 --> 3:58:52.480 pretty frequently. But you can just sort of like if 3:58:52.480 --> 3:58:54.360 if you're able to manipulate the media well enough and 3:58:54.440 --> 3:58:55.960 you you know that there's other ways to do this, 3:58:56.120 --> 3:58:57.960 Like you know, you could do it by like weird memes. 3:58:58.040 --> 3:59:00.800 You can do it by you know, being the cops 3:59:00.880 --> 3:59:03.120 are just like having press releases that you send out, 3:59:03.280 --> 3:59:04.440 you can have you can do it through like these 3:59:04.480 --> 3:59:07.560 sort of like astro turf, Like I don't know you 3:59:07.640 --> 3:59:09.920 have like an astro turf intellectual, like what's his name, 3:59:10.000 --> 3:59:13.760 Margaret Upo, But it's it's it's interesting to me that 3:59:13.880 --> 3:59:17.760 like they all seem to work, like the pathway through 3:59:17.800 --> 3:59:19.720 it all seems to be very similar. Which is what 3:59:19.880 --> 3:59:21.520 you do is you convince aboutch of media people or 3:59:21.520 --> 3:59:24.880 something is real, and then once once they start taking 3:59:24.920 --> 3:59:29.760 it seriously, it sort of manifests itself into reality. Yeah, 3:59:29.800 --> 3:59:32.840 I know that, that is what I realized what was happening, 3:59:33.080 --> 3:59:35.240 Like I one of my initial points that I was 3:59:35.280 --> 3:59:38.680 trying to make after um, the whole goblin thing, after 3:59:38.760 --> 3:59:41.200 the first article came out, I was like, it really 3:59:41.280 --> 3:59:44.880 made me realized, like how potent fake I hate saying 3:59:44.920 --> 3:59:48.360 this phrase just because it's become such like a nothing 3:59:48.440 --> 3:59:50.840 sort of phrase, but like fake news is how how 3:59:50.960 --> 3:59:54.400 easy it is to just like instead of goblin mode. 3:59:54.480 --> 3:59:56.680 I decided like maybe let's say I'm like a crazy 3:59:56.800 --> 4:00:00.520 right winger and I had this weird digeist moment causing 4:00:00.560 --> 4:00:02.800 a panic about like trans people, and I made like 4:00:02.880 --> 4:00:06.000 a fake tweet like that you would we see that 4:00:06.120 --> 4:00:08.920 happened all the time, like trans people people, A lot 4:00:08.960 --> 4:00:11.560 of people hate us, um, and it would be super 4:00:11.640 --> 4:00:15.120 easy put it in the right community. UM, make this 4:00:15.240 --> 4:00:18.760 fake tweet or a fake headline, and people right wing 4:00:18.840 --> 4:00:22.040 or specifically will go wild and it'll really influence the discourse. 4:00:22.080 --> 4:00:24.000 I mean, look at the current I mean it's it's 4:00:24.040 --> 4:00:26.720 kind of over now. But the last it it was 4:00:26.800 --> 4:00:30.720 last week, the swimmer, the trans swimmer, that one, the 4:00:30.760 --> 4:00:34.800 women's competition. I mean, the amount of vitriol that was 4:00:35.120 --> 4:00:37.800 able to be created over that. Just imagine what, like, 4:00:37.880 --> 4:00:40.640 as you said, like a well funded height network of 4:00:41.840 --> 4:00:44.200 um but I don't know, but for lack of a 4:00:44.240 --> 4:00:47.600 better phrase, like fake news creators, just all they would 4:00:47.640 --> 4:00:49.480 need to do is put something out on Facebook, the 4:00:49.520 --> 4:00:53.520 boomers see it, and then it's over. Yea, what what? What? 4:00:53.680 --> 4:00:55.600 What are the things I learned about? Like, well, I 4:00:55.720 --> 4:00:59.520 was doing research for Weirdly an episode about Reverend Moon. 4:00:59.720 --> 4:01:02.240 Was that like people figured so this is sort of 4:01:02.280 --> 4:01:03.960 like this is like how Republicans came to power, Like 4:01:04.000 --> 4:01:05.280 that they figured out you could do shoot like this, 4:01:05.400 --> 4:01:09.080 and like Rubber Fiugieri like in like in like the 4:01:09.360 --> 4:01:12.240 sixties figured out that like if you just if you 4:01:12.440 --> 4:01:17.080 sent like you could just send letters to like they work. 4:01:17.080 --> 4:01:18.480 I guess they weren't even boomers that if you just 4:01:18.520 --> 4:01:21.200 send letters to old people that would say stuff like 4:01:21.760 --> 4:01:24.720 planned parenthood is harvesting baby fetuses, you could just get 4:01:24.760 --> 4:01:27.800 the really mad and it's like and it's funny because 4:01:27.800 --> 4:01:29.440 you know in the citties like he's he's doing this 4:01:29.520 --> 4:01:32.840 like by mail, right, like he is mailing you a 4:01:33.000 --> 4:01:40.760 chain letter. It's just stuff. Yeah, it became just like yeah, yeah, 4:01:40.880 --> 4:01:42.800 it's like he's just like it's it's weird because you 4:01:42.800 --> 4:01:45.120 can watch them invent this and then it's like, oh, yeah, 4:01:45.160 --> 4:01:49.680 this guy was funded by like a weird cult guy 4:01:49.760 --> 4:01:51.760 who was trying to take over the world, who was 4:01:52.120 --> 4:01:55.320 being backed by the Korean CIA, and it's like, I 4:01:55.360 --> 4:01:58.640 don't know, it gets into this, Yeah, it all sort 4:01:58.680 --> 4:02:01.960 of comes back into this weird thing where yeah, I 4:02:02.000 --> 4:02:03.960 mean I like one of one of the what the 4:02:04.120 --> 4:02:06.240 political transformations I've had since I started working here was 4:02:06.320 --> 4:02:08.440 like I didn't take like it's sort of a similar 4:02:08.440 --> 4:02:09.520 to what you were saying, Like I didn't take the 4:02:09.600 --> 4:02:12.400 like weaponized unreality like fake new stuff like that seriously. 4:02:12.480 --> 4:02:16.200 And then it was like you cover it every day 4:02:16.280 --> 4:02:19.680 and it's like, oh my god like the like the weird, 4:02:19.800 --> 4:02:22.800 like like watching like four Chan like invents the I 4:02:22.800 --> 4:02:28.840 actoually don't know if it's portunately was one of watching 4:02:28.920 --> 4:02:31.600 like just weird right wing like message boards invent like 4:02:31.760 --> 4:02:35.920 the Ukrainian biolab thing, which like grand Mean Wall now 4:02:35.960 --> 4:02:38.960 tweets about and like like like the like the official 4:02:39.000 --> 4:02:41.720 state media of Russia and China are like talking about 4:02:41.760 --> 4:02:45.800 these bio labs and it's like it's turned into this 4:02:45.960 --> 4:02:49.080 weird like like thing where like yeah, like like actual 4:02:49.200 --> 4:02:55.880 countries with like nuclear weapons are like basically using ship 4:02:56.000 --> 4:02:59.000 posters as like as like a way to do propaganda, 4:02:59.000 --> 4:03:03.400 and it's it's just like really the weird. I don't know, 4:03:03.800 --> 4:03:07.200 it's this really weird and incredibly disturbing media space to 4:03:07.240 --> 4:03:10.520 live in. Yeah, it's it's like a it's a weird 4:03:10.600 --> 4:03:14.760 synthesis of ship posters just posting online to like whatever audience, 4:03:15.080 --> 4:03:17.520 and I guess like media of some sort and not 4:03:17.960 --> 4:03:20.320 maybe not like um in the in the case with 4:03:20.400 --> 4:03:23.520 the biolot I don't know too much about that, especially 4:03:23.560 --> 4:03:25.680 cause I'm black by gun Greenwald, so I don't see 4:03:25.680 --> 4:03:30.560 a lot of stuff. But you know, it's it's interesting 4:03:30.640 --> 4:03:33.760 how how kind of interlocked there. And and to your 4:03:33.800 --> 4:03:36.720 point about the earlier about the whole Trump me magic thing, 4:03:37.240 --> 4:03:39.440 like I didn't take that too seriously at the time, 4:03:40.080 --> 4:03:43.200 Like in I was like, Oh, all these silly right 4:03:43.240 --> 4:03:47.040 wingers making these means like this isn't gonna do anything, 4:03:47.240 --> 4:03:48.680 Like I I don't. I really don't know if it 4:03:48.720 --> 4:03:52.120 really had an effect, but I mean it's we can't 4:03:52.160 --> 4:03:55.200 really ignore the power of that. Just simply manifesting something, 4:03:55.320 --> 4:03:58.600 even if it's artificial, can actually have a hole about 4:03:58.640 --> 4:04:02.560 certain people. Um as we were saying with the mailing letters. 4:04:03.200 --> 4:04:06.640 I mean, if you just say enough, if you say 4:04:06.760 --> 4:04:09.400 something enough to the right type of person, they'll just 4:04:09.520 --> 4:04:12.040 believe it. I mean, it's it's not hard to lie 4:04:12.080 --> 4:04:14.320 to people as horrible as those to say. It's really 4:04:14.360 --> 4:04:16.920 not that hard to lie to people. Yeah, Like I 4:04:17.000 --> 4:04:19.560 mean that's the whole sort of like everyone yelling groomer 4:04:19.800 --> 4:04:22.280 like constantly about trans people. It's like, yeah, they just 4:04:22.800 --> 4:04:24.720 lied over and over again. And like half the people 4:04:24.760 --> 4:04:27.360 who were like saying this stuff are actually pedophiles. And 4:04:27.400 --> 4:04:30.760 it doesn't matter because you know, if you just like 4:04:30.960 --> 4:04:33.080 do this ship over and over again, you get these 4:04:33.200 --> 4:04:37.200 you get just get these like hate bobs and it's yeah, no, 4:04:37.360 --> 4:04:40.600 the right wing, right wing or specifically are phenomenal at 4:04:40.720 --> 4:04:45.320 creating hate mobs. Yeah, it's kind of incredible to witness. 4:04:45.360 --> 4:04:47.960 It's it's really scary, but it's it's an incredible thing 4:04:48.040 --> 4:04:50.040 to see. There's not really an equivalent, i would say, 4:04:50.040 --> 4:04:53.880 on the left in the way that um even maybe 4:04:54.040 --> 4:04:56.680 in liberals there's an equivalent, but like on the on 4:04:56.760 --> 4:04:58.520 the left, there's not really like an equivalent to like 4:04:59.200 --> 4:05:05.240 some like mob in that way. Yeah, yeah, I mean 4:05:05.320 --> 4:05:08.080 I think that's you know, like, Okay, there's always an 4:05:08.120 --> 4:05:10.480 extent to which like these stuff the stuff has like 4:05:10.680 --> 4:05:14.040 material constraints, Like you know, I thought to talk about 4:05:14.080 --> 4:05:16.880 like constantly on this show, the fact that like this 4:05:17.120 --> 4:05:18.840 is like this is the stuff that the DEO cons 4:05:18.880 --> 4:05:20.960 believed and then they ran into the material constraints of 4:05:20.960 --> 4:05:23.680 the Iraq War and their entire project imploded. And like, 4:05:24.200 --> 4:05:25.680 I mean, I think one of the reasons why this 4:05:25.800 --> 4:05:29.840 is easier for the right is that like there's the 4:05:30.080 --> 4:05:32.120 there there's a there's a there's there's a there's always 4:05:32.320 --> 4:05:35.600 a political base for them that is there that they 4:05:35.640 --> 4:05:38.000 can access fairly easily, which is okay, they they they 4:05:38.240 --> 4:05:42.000 have access to like you know that they have access 4:05:42.000 --> 4:05:45.920 to like a vast swath the petit boars. Well, they 4:05:45.920 --> 4:05:47.760 have access to a bunch of of white business owners. 4:05:47.840 --> 4:05:51.960 They have access to like this sort of like this 4:05:52.120 --> 4:05:54.160 like white professional class. They have access to this sort 4:05:54.160 --> 4:05:56.960 of like white gentry e class, and like those people 4:05:57.960 --> 4:06:02.320 can very easily be of like whipped into a frothing rage. 4:06:02.360 --> 4:06:04.440 And like part of it is because like that that's 4:06:04.560 --> 4:06:06.640 essentially that's just what they're That's what their class interest is, 4:06:06.880 --> 4:06:09.280 that's what they're sort of like like their status, the 4:06:09.800 --> 4:06:13.640 racial hierarchy like brings them to do already. And you 4:06:13.680 --> 4:06:16.480 could sort of like you know, if you just shovel 4:06:16.560 --> 4:06:18.120 a bit of coal on it, you can you can 4:06:18.160 --> 4:06:21.400 you can make the fire go absolutely. And I mean 4:06:22.160 --> 4:06:24.080 it's talked about a lot, I'm sure, but like the 4:06:24.640 --> 4:06:28.760 one thing that is really powerful is Fox News. Fox 4:06:28.840 --> 4:06:31.040 News will pick up literally anything like I saw I 4:06:31.120 --> 4:06:34.120 saw a post on Twitter just the other day, screenshot 4:06:34.440 --> 4:06:37.960 or just just a picture of Fox News and they 4:06:38.080 --> 4:06:42.320 they cited the lives of TikTok Twitter account talking about 4:06:42.520 --> 4:06:45.440 school classrooms. It's like, what is that like not like 4:06:45.560 --> 4:06:47.600 the right wingers will just take the source of a 4:06:47.720 --> 4:06:51.560 random Twitter user that has a take that takes messages 4:06:51.680 --> 4:06:54.520 from random people that message them and then that's their news. 4:06:54.920 --> 4:06:57.080 Like that is just insane to to to to to 4:06:57.480 --> 4:06:59.040 be fair to Fox News, which is not a thing 4:06:59.120 --> 4:07:01.960 I will ever say a and uh, it wouldn't It 4:07:01.960 --> 4:07:04.680 wouldn't surprise me if that whole thing like because so 4:07:04.840 --> 4:07:06.560 the I don't know if you saw this the lives 4:07:06.560 --> 4:07:08.840 of TikTok person is like, is that that thing is 4:07:08.920 --> 4:07:12.120 run by an old Bush administration person? I did not 4:07:12.240 --> 4:07:14.840 know that. Yeah, so it wouldn't. I mean, Okay, like 4:07:15.080 --> 4:07:17.200 the there there there's probably a three and four chance 4:07:17.240 --> 4:07:19.400 that they just saw someone who's like trying to own 4:07:19.440 --> 4:07:20.920 the libs on TikTok. But there's like a one in 4:07:21.000 --> 4:07:23.880 four chance that like all the old like Bush network 4:07:23.960 --> 4:07:26.800 people like know each other and that's why they're promoting it. 4:07:27.960 --> 4:07:29.920 That's that's a good point. That's a good point. I 4:07:30.000 --> 4:07:35.160 mean that, well maybe I don't know, like it's it's 4:07:35.240 --> 4:07:37.120 it's one of those things where it's like it becomes 4:07:38.200 --> 4:07:42.400 I don't know, it becomes really difficult to to know 4:07:42.640 --> 4:07:47.360 the extent to which the beliefs. Yeah, well how organized 4:07:47.360 --> 4:07:48.880 they are into the extent to which they believe what 4:07:48.920 --> 4:07:51.880 they're saying, because part of that, like that becomes like 4:07:51.920 --> 4:07:53.880 you know, if if, if you know who's behind that, 4:07:54.000 --> 4:07:55.920 it becomes easier to sort of be like, oh yeah, 4:07:55.920 --> 4:07:57.280 we're just sort of playing a game. But it could 4:07:57.280 --> 4:07:59.760 also just be like, no, this is this is content 4:07:59.800 --> 4:08:02.240 that we like, uh, we were all too lazy to 4:08:02.280 --> 4:08:04.880 go or just message the person to see who they are, 4:08:05.360 --> 4:08:09.480 Like I mean, they had the specifically in this case, 4:08:09.560 --> 4:08:12.680 the lives of TikTok Lady. They had her like on 4:08:13.440 --> 4:08:17.400 TALX news once talking oh yeah yeah, referenced her multiple times, 4:08:17.440 --> 4:08:22.360 so they have to know her. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's that. 4:08:22.480 --> 4:08:24.200 That's another technique that they do a lot, which that 4:08:24.640 --> 4:08:26.480 they take someone who is like you know, like a 4:08:26.600 --> 4:08:29.800 like an old part like who's literally a Republican operative, right, 4:08:30.680 --> 4:08:33.040 and just laundered them as an actress. Actually, the funny 4:08:33.080 --> 4:08:35.880 part is you see like like the New York Times 4:08:35.960 --> 4:08:37.680 and Ship like all the main street outlets do the 4:08:37.760 --> 4:08:41.040 same thing too, where it's like yeah, well, well, like 4:08:41.840 --> 4:08:44.160 any time you see an article that is like I 4:08:44.320 --> 4:08:46.080 was a Democratic voter, but I'm going to vote for 4:08:46.080 --> 4:08:49.280 the Republicans nine times out of ten that person is 4:08:49.280 --> 4:08:51.280 a Republican operative and if you google their name and 4:08:51.440 --> 4:08:54.320 look hard enough, you can just find it. And it's like, 4:08:57.200 --> 4:09:00.720 and that's the only thing that other thing was like 4:09:00.720 --> 4:09:03.440 I don't know whether they whether they're just lazy and 4:09:03.520 --> 4:09:06.760 don't check, or whether they're just sort of like doing 4:09:06.920 --> 4:09:11.320 this kind of like I don't know that what what 4:09:11.480 --> 4:09:15.280 what whe whether they're doing this on purpose? Because I 4:09:15.320 --> 4:09:17.040 mean that you know, That's that's the thing with journalism, 4:09:17.120 --> 4:09:20.440 Like it's it's difficult to like, when someone screws something up, 4:09:20.440 --> 4:09:22.440 it's it's difficult to determine a lot of times whether 4:09:22.480 --> 4:09:25.960 it's malice or whether it's they're just the only research 4:09:26.000 --> 4:09:31.640 they did was they googled something. Yeah, I feel like 4:09:32.000 --> 4:09:34.400 in the realblem that we're talking about right now, it's 4:09:34.440 --> 4:09:37.120 like right wingers, I think a lot of it. Obviously 4:09:37.160 --> 4:09:40.960 it's pretty malicious a lot of the times. But in 4:09:41.120 --> 4:09:43.880 terms of like the whole goblin mode situation where that 4:09:44.000 --> 4:09:47.680 that stemmed off just from like random like Guardian whatever articles, 4:09:47.680 --> 4:09:50.880 I think I think that was just more of like, oh, 4:09:51.000 --> 4:09:53.560 let's kind of trying to explain this thing that is 4:09:53.600 --> 4:09:57.520 apparently now a trend and we're manifesting it in real time. Yeah, 4:09:57.640 --> 4:10:00.720 I do think there's like this distinct in between. Next, 4:10:01.040 --> 4:10:04.240 I feel there's no like like with God, there's there's 4:10:04.240 --> 4:10:08.080 no nefarious aspect of it, but that like technique can 4:10:08.200 --> 4:10:10.960 be used in a very nefarious way, and I think 4:10:11.000 --> 4:10:15.120 that manifests in the most easy to waste, the easiest 4:10:15.360 --> 4:10:18.840 to see ways in right wing media. Yeah, I do 4:10:18.960 --> 4:10:21.880 want to also mention that, like the Yeah, I I 4:10:22.400 --> 4:10:24.680 think I said briefly, like the people who do this 4:10:24.840 --> 4:10:29.520 the most often are cops, Like the cops. And if 4:10:29.640 --> 4:10:31.560 if you see a story about the police in a 4:10:31.640 --> 4:10:34.560 manship newspaper and you see the same story in another paper, 4:10:34.680 --> 4:10:37.840 it's because they're basically printing a press release. And you know, 4:10:37.920 --> 4:10:40.160 I mean this this gets used to like launder just 4:10:40.560 --> 4:10:45.240 straight up police lies about shootings they manufactured, like the 4:10:45.480 --> 4:10:49.160 entire crime wave thing, like the whole thing about people 4:10:49.240 --> 4:10:52.560 taking boxes off of trains. It's like, yeah, you look 4:10:52.640 --> 4:10:54.080 into it and it's like, yeah, there's these like the 4:10:54.440 --> 4:10:58.120 there's the sort of like shadowy police networks of people 4:10:58.160 --> 4:11:00.840 who are basically running I mean they have enormous budgets 4:11:00.840 --> 4:11:02.840 to do this too, Like they have these enormous um 4:11:04.320 --> 4:11:08.680 like departmental like public outreach budgets, and those public outreach 4:11:08.720 --> 4:11:13.240 budgets are basically them running information ops on us, which 4:11:13.320 --> 4:11:18.000 is incredibly fun. You know that that is absolutely like 4:11:18.080 --> 4:11:20.840 a real phenomena. I I don't know too much about 4:11:20.880 --> 4:11:22.720 it specifically in cops, but I know, I know the 4:11:22.720 --> 4:11:25.640 White House does that all the time, where it's like, oh, 4:11:25.720 --> 4:11:28.120 there's a White House leap and it's like, oh, no, 4:11:28.320 --> 4:11:32.280 they wanted people to see this. This is entirely intentional. Yeah, 4:11:32.320 --> 4:11:34.240 they try a balloon stuff a lot, and that's I 4:11:34.280 --> 4:11:40.160 don't know, and like that this is this is goblin mode. 4:11:40.240 --> 4:11:42.680 Is like the fun version of looking at how all 4:11:42.800 --> 4:11:46.400 this stuff works. But this stuff happens with stuff that 4:11:46.600 --> 4:11:51.880 is extremely deadly and has real world consequences. And yeah, 4:11:52.080 --> 4:11:54.080 it's it's some It's something we need to be thinking 4:11:54.160 --> 4:11:58.320 about and trying to I don't know if used for 4:11:58.440 --> 4:12:00.800 good is the right thing, but like it's something that 4:12:00.920 --> 4:12:05.200 we need to be really conscious of as we're dealing with, 4:12:06.240 --> 4:12:10.240 you know, a bunch of fascists trying to murder everyone. Absolutely, 4:12:10.320 --> 4:12:12.720 I mean that that's been the most interesting thing about 4:12:12.800 --> 4:12:16.360 this to me is watching Like I hate calling it this, 4:12:16.520 --> 4:12:18.000 but just for lack of a better word, kind of 4:12:18.080 --> 4:12:22.480 like goblin mode is like being manufactured, like manufacturing consent 4:12:22.560 --> 4:12:25.000 in real time, like from the genesis of my post, 4:12:25.320 --> 4:12:27.800 watching it in real time, seeing all these articles come 4:12:27.840 --> 4:12:29.960 out and kind of all tie into each other and 4:12:30.080 --> 4:12:31.840 refer back to each other. It's been it's been kind 4:12:31.840 --> 4:12:36.520 of eye opening about this topic that I think a 4:12:36.600 --> 4:12:38.360 lot of leftists kind of know a lot about, like 4:12:38.440 --> 4:12:42.760 in terms of like medium manipulation and you're it's you're 4:12:42.840 --> 4:12:45.760 right when you said it's like the fun version of that. Yeah, 4:12:45.880 --> 4:12:47.920 and it has been the fun version of it. But 4:12:48.080 --> 4:12:49.880 deep down it's like, oh, this is kind of like 4:12:50.840 --> 4:12:53.880 watching like how they did like they this might be dramatic, 4:12:53.960 --> 4:12:56.520 but like how they did the Iraq War in real time, 4:12:56.840 --> 4:13:01.440 Like this is on some level that's very similar media strategy. 4:13:02.040 --> 4:13:03.800 And I think, I mean, I think I think there's 4:13:04.760 --> 4:13:07.320 specifically gobler mode. I think there's because because like the 4:13:07.360 --> 4:13:10.640 Iraq War, there's a lot of malice there and but 4:13:10.800 --> 4:13:12.400 but in this one, it's like, yeah, like that, you know, 4:13:12.960 --> 4:13:16.880 not all of the media, like all of them, like okay, 4:13:17.720 --> 4:13:20.720 in order for something that's completely fake to get traction, 4:13:21.200 --> 4:13:24.800 it doesn't require everyone involved being malicious. What it requires 4:13:24.960 --> 4:13:27.000 is one person saying a thing and then a bunch 4:13:27.000 --> 4:13:29.200 of journalists being too lazy to actually look into something, 4:13:29.280 --> 4:13:31.840 and that just you know, basically reprinting the article, but 4:13:31.960 --> 4:13:36.040 like rewriting a few things, which happens constantly, and yeah, 4:13:36.080 --> 4:13:39.120 and and that, like you know, the thing I think 4:13:39.120 --> 4:13:41.480 that's scary about that is it reduces the number of 4:13:41.560 --> 4:13:44.240 actors who actually have to be involved in a thing 4:13:44.840 --> 4:13:47.840 for it to just sort of like take off like this, 4:13:48.800 --> 4:13:52.760 which yeah, because like I think like there's there's an 4:13:52.800 --> 4:13:57.040 extent to which okay, like it rocks, Like something on 4:13:57.160 --> 4:14:01.840 that scale is pretty rare because it requires, like in 4:14:01.920 --> 4:14:05.720 an enormous amount of buying from a lot of people. 4:14:06.400 --> 4:14:09.760 But there's lots of small examples of this stuff that 4:14:09.880 --> 4:14:13.720 just happened sort of constantly and that stuff like yeah, 4:14:13.720 --> 4:14:15.520 I mean, you know, as we've been talking about like that, 4:14:15.640 --> 4:14:17.920 that that kind of thing with small numbers actors and 4:14:18.000 --> 4:14:22.120 then people just sort of lazily reprinting articles like that stuff. Right. 4:14:22.200 --> 4:14:24.120 I mean, I think the best example of this is currently, 4:14:24.160 --> 4:14:26.040 at least just in my mind, because I am trans, 4:14:26.240 --> 4:14:29.480 the the whole trans panic that's happening right now. I 4:14:29.600 --> 4:14:31.720 think that's a really good example of it is just 4:14:31.800 --> 4:14:35.120 where like some website will print this certain thing and 4:14:35.240 --> 4:14:41.600 then it becomes a hysterical panic talking about it. Yeah, 4:14:41.600 --> 4:14:43.280 Like I think that the best. The most recent example 4:14:43.360 --> 4:14:45.520 that was that spa where it was like some person 4:14:45.840 --> 4:14:49.800 claimed like made it made a bunch of claims where 4:14:49.800 --> 4:14:53.440 they were like they might have seen a trans person maybe, 4:14:54.080 --> 4:14:57.720 and it turned into just like literally mobs showing up 4:14:57.800 --> 4:15:00.880 at this spa, like anti trans bobs, like a bunch 4:15:00.960 --> 4:15:04.400 of fascists showing up, a bunch of like like yeah, 4:15:04.480 --> 4:15:10.200 and that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's that affects reality. Yeah, 4:15:11.400 --> 4:15:13.840 that really affects people. Yeah. And and like the the 4:15:13.960 --> 4:15:15.440 the other one, the other one that that we've talked 4:15:15.480 --> 4:15:18.160 about in the trans episodes is people to people are 4:15:18.200 --> 4:15:21.080 starting to do this kind of stuff with ginger clinics, 4:15:21.160 --> 4:15:24.760 and it's you know, yeah, it's like yeah, like that 4:15:24.880 --> 4:15:27.520 that's only a matter of time before they start killing people, 4:15:28.160 --> 4:15:33.760 Like yeah, yeah. The media can easily whip someone into 4:15:33.920 --> 4:15:36.200 frenzy to do that. I mean we've seen that in 4:15:36.280 --> 4:15:38.640 the past with I think, as you referenced before, like 4:15:38.720 --> 4:15:42.000 the whole like abortion whole, like in the nineties and 4:15:42.080 --> 4:15:45.120 early two thousands, the whole abortion panic. Yeah, I mean 4:15:45.200 --> 4:15:47.320 we saw we saw people die over stuff like that. 4:15:47.800 --> 4:15:52.720 It's yeah, bombings like and you know. And the other 4:15:52.800 --> 4:15:55.320 thing is that like they're winning, like they are on 4:15:55.480 --> 4:15:59.440 the verge of after this like half a century long battle, 4:15:59.520 --> 4:16:01.480 like they are on the verge of over turning ro 4:16:01.600 --> 4:16:05.040 he weighed. Yeah, yeah, like you know that. And that's 4:16:07.120 --> 4:16:10.280 I think a really grim thing for the left where 4:16:10.320 --> 4:16:14.280 it's like, like, what one of the asymmetries here is 4:16:14.440 --> 4:16:17.960 that like if a leftist like assassinated the head of 4:16:18.040 --> 4:16:22.040 Ice right like they were, like I would be in 4:16:22.160 --> 4:16:24.960 prison in like a day and a half. There'd be 4:16:25.040 --> 4:16:29.040 like fifteen people who be shot in police raids. Like yeah, 4:16:29.120 --> 4:16:30.400 but you know, but like when when the right wing 4:16:30.480 --> 4:16:33.240 just like it does terrorism, like just murders abortion right 4:16:33.280 --> 4:16:38.240 as it works, And that's a really grim asymmetry. But 4:16:38.640 --> 4:16:43.280 it's sort of the reality of the situation that Brian right, 4:16:43.880 --> 4:16:46.440 And yeah, that reminds me of the This is a 4:16:46.520 --> 4:16:48.880 while ago. This was during the Black Lives Matter protests. 4:16:48.880 --> 4:16:52.120 I don't even remember why he was on the fed's radar, 4:16:52.440 --> 4:16:54.600 but there was the dude I think in Portland, and 4:16:54.720 --> 4:16:56.960 there was like a there was like a raid and 4:16:57.040 --> 4:17:00.240 they just shot the dude in the remember that. Yeah, yeah, 4:17:00.240 --> 4:17:02.240 I mean it happened again in Uh. Yeah, they just 4:17:02.320 --> 4:17:04.600 murdered him. And then like it happened again with Winston 4:17:04.640 --> 4:17:09.280 Smith in uh in Minneapolis where like the like the 4:17:09.360 --> 4:17:11.480 cops were mad at him because he was like he 4:17:11.600 --> 4:17:13.760 was one of the leaders of what's happening in Minneapolis 4:17:13.880 --> 4:17:18.160 and they just walked up and shot him. Yeah and yeah, 4:17:18.640 --> 4:17:23.800 and it's it's it is a really bleak look at 4:17:25.640 --> 4:17:28.000 you know, how this country actually works, which is not 4:17:28.320 --> 4:17:30.640 really what I expected this episode to be. Ending up. 4:17:31.520 --> 4:17:33.200 I just like, we'll do a fun episode about Goblin 4:17:33.280 --> 4:17:34.720 Bode and now it's like, yeah, he was the state 4:17:34.880 --> 4:17:38.040 just assassinating people and they're gonna keep doing it. And 4:17:38.120 --> 4:17:40.440 also they're gonna like to start bombing abortion not well, 4:17:40.480 --> 4:17:42.400 I mean to keep bombing abortion clinics and start bombing 4:17:42.440 --> 4:17:45.600 gender clinics, and it's like that doesn't actually happen, but 4:17:45.800 --> 4:17:49.040 but yeah, I think it was our point was that 4:17:49.120 --> 4:17:51.560 it was like we've seen that happen in the past. Yeah, 4:17:52.960 --> 4:17:58.120 of the reactionary media feeling the hysteria through it doesn't 4:17:58.120 --> 4:18:00.800 even matter if it's real or fake stories that's that's 4:18:00.840 --> 4:18:02.520 the main issue is it can be totally fake and 4:18:02.760 --> 4:18:08.440 it'll it'll just fuel hysterics against anyone, any any target. Yeah, 4:18:08.520 --> 4:18:12.480 that's just like yeah, like what the we should probably 4:18:12.560 --> 4:18:14.800 close out. But like the one that's been fun for me, 4:18:14.960 --> 4:18:17.720 and by fun, I mean dear God, has been the 4:18:18.560 --> 4:18:22.200 fucking the Wuhuan biolab ship, which was like literally like 4:18:22.440 --> 4:18:24.800 like literally this this was this like literally this whole 4:18:24.880 --> 4:18:27.320 thing was a psi oup by Steve Bannett who was like, 4:18:27.400 --> 4:18:28.920 this is how we can have Trump win the election 4:18:29.120 --> 4:18:33.360 by by by uniting everyone in like anti Asian hate, 4:18:33.960 --> 4:18:36.360 and like it worked. Like well, I mean, okay, he 4:18:36.480 --> 4:18:39.200 he lost the election, but like you know, all like 4:18:39.280 --> 4:18:45.720 eventually this is this just like completely crank, like absolutely batship. 4:18:45.840 --> 4:18:48.000 All the people who are advocating for it are like 4:18:48.760 --> 4:18:51.560 like they like they're like mushroom scientists or they're like 4:18:51.760 --> 4:18:55.480 people who like you know, like like they're they're like weird. 4:18:55.520 --> 4:18:58.520 I ever met In Truthers, Like all these people, you know, 4:18:58.640 --> 4:19:00.920 like were were legitim mice by the media and like 4:19:01.080 --> 4:19:05.240 that had that had an enormous impact on the last 4:19:05.400 --> 4:19:07.960 sort of two years of anti ation violence. Like that's 4:19:08.680 --> 4:19:10.560 like that that's the thing that way to get as 4:19:10.600 --> 4:19:12.920 bad as it did. And again, it is just completely fake. 4:19:13.000 --> 4:19:15.800 There's nothing, it's it's there. They're just they're just you know, 4:19:16.520 --> 4:19:19.000 like a bunch of fascists made up a lie about 4:19:19.760 --> 4:19:21.840 a plague so that they could try to win an 4:19:21.880 --> 4:19:25.040 election by like burdering Asian people. And yeah, yeah, and 4:19:25.160 --> 4:19:27.520 it's it's that. That's the interesting thing is that if 4:19:27.600 --> 4:19:30.520 you look at um, like poles about like, oh, how 4:19:30.560 --> 4:19:32.880 do you feel about China, Like you go back even 4:19:32.920 --> 4:19:35.880 just four years ago, most people were like, I don't 4:19:35.920 --> 4:19:38.880 have exact numbers on my head, um, but most people 4:19:39.000 --> 4:19:41.720 it was like maybe split like oh, like China is 4:19:41.760 --> 4:19:44.040 kind of scary, or like China, China is okay. But 4:19:44.120 --> 4:19:46.040 like most Americans at this point, even like a lot 4:19:46.120 --> 4:19:49.120 of liberals do not like China. Like it's like even 4:19:49.200 --> 4:19:52.040 the rest like China. It's like it was just manifested 4:19:52.120 --> 4:19:55.759 through the whole maybe not all through the whole Buhanu 4:19:56.200 --> 4:19:58.520 lab but just the last few years and years of 4:19:59.200 --> 4:20:05.280 both by the government and Trump's government ratcheting hard against China, 4:20:05.440 --> 4:20:09.240 and just like anti China or even anti Chinese like 4:20:09.360 --> 4:20:12.520 people sentiments. Yeah, and there's an interesting thing there too, 4:20:12.560 --> 4:20:14.960 where it's like, okay, so for the first about so 4:20:15.080 --> 4:20:17.840 that this pivot starts when which when Trump starts a 4:20:17.880 --> 4:20:21.240 trade war, right, and there's this interesting thing where it's 4:20:21.320 --> 4:20:24.360 like for the first about two years of it, it 4:20:24.520 --> 4:20:26.400 was like the views about China were changing, but the 4:20:26.400 --> 4:20:29.880 actual level of anti Asian violence wasn't doing much. But 4:20:29.960 --> 4:20:31.640 then when COVID hit, it was like you know it 4:20:31.880 --> 4:20:33.800 was it was it was kind of like an abstract thing, right, 4:20:33.880 --> 4:20:35.240 it was like, okay, well we don't like China, but 4:20:35.360 --> 4:20:39.760 like there was nothing that there wasn't like a super 4:20:40.520 --> 4:20:45.040 strong like the thing you could point to to directly 4:20:45.120 --> 4:20:47.280 tie it to Asian people. And then the moment the 4:20:47.360 --> 4:20:49.280 moment the pandemic started and then the moment that like 4:20:49.320 --> 4:20:52.120 Wuhan shit started, it was like suddenly there was like 4:20:52.160 --> 4:20:54.200 a concrete thing that you could point to, and it 4:20:54.280 --> 4:20:56.880 was that was like, hey, look it's the Chinese people. 4:20:57.040 --> 4:20:59.880 The they're they're they're they're spreading the plague, they benefactured 4:20:59.920 --> 4:21:02.520 the played a lab is because they're dirty. Like the 4:21:02.680 --> 4:21:06.200 moments became that was when everything just like all the 4:21:06.320 --> 4:21:08.800 tax skyrockety like that. That's that's that's when like everything 4:21:08.920 --> 4:21:15.160 just sort of like really like kicked off, and that 4:21:15.440 --> 4:21:18.320 was like hysterics. That was like the targeted hysteria of 4:21:21.560 --> 4:21:23.720 I would say, yeah, yeah, and it's well, you know, 4:21:23.880 --> 4:21:26.600 the fun thing I'm bracing for is like, yeah, this 4:21:26.600 --> 4:21:28.960 looks like it's gonna be the Democrat strategy two as 4:21:28.960 --> 4:21:32.280 well as Republican strategy, and it's like, oh, hey, more 4:21:32.360 --> 4:21:34.040 of us are gonna die. This is gonna be fun. 4:21:34.760 --> 4:21:41.040 So yeah, yeah, yeah, it's kind of scary. Yeah, this 4:21:41.160 --> 4:21:43.680 just started out as a fun episode. But yeah, it's 4:21:43.760 --> 4:21:47.400 how kind that was fun, So I guess it was 4:21:47.440 --> 4:21:49.720 still a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah. Do you have 4:21:49.760 --> 4:21:51.280 anything else that you want to say or do you 4:21:51.360 --> 4:21:53.840 want to tell people where to find you? Um? I 4:21:53.880 --> 4:21:56.480 don't really have anything to say necessarily. All I really 4:21:56.560 --> 4:21:59.080 do on the internet, at least like my my whole 4:21:59.120 --> 4:22:02.240 internet in that prevate presence right now is just on Twitter. UM. 4:22:02.520 --> 4:22:06.600 If you want to follow me, it's um at meAll meu. UM. 4:22:07.200 --> 4:22:09.280 I don't know if you'll have like that link or anything. 4:22:09.640 --> 4:22:12.160 It's kind of hard to spell with the last the 4:22:12.360 --> 4:22:15.680 whole MEU it's i'm eu w. But that's really all 4:22:15.720 --> 4:22:18.280 I have is just my Twitter. Yeah, that's all. That's 4:22:18.320 --> 4:22:22.000 all I really do online. I mean, it is extremely funny, 4:22:22.000 --> 4:22:25.320 and every once in a while you create Goblin Mode 4:22:27.240 --> 4:22:32.960 as an actual thing, which is Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, 4:22:32.960 --> 4:22:35.320 I have a good time on Twitter people. People complain 4:22:35.320 --> 4:22:38.280 about that website a lot. But yeah, since I joined 4:22:38.320 --> 4:22:40.560 the like twenty nineteen or whatever, I haven't looked back. 4:22:40.600 --> 4:22:42.440 It's it's a lot of fun about a lot of 4:22:42.480 --> 4:22:45.760 cool people. Yeah, I've known of you for a while, 4:22:45.920 --> 4:22:51.160 but it's nice to actually talk to you. You too, Yeah, yeah, 4:22:51.240 --> 4:22:54.680 it was. It was a good time. Yeah, So go 4:22:54.920 --> 4:23:01.200 Goblin Mode. Don't let the fascist murder trans people. H Yeah. Yeah, 4:23:01.880 --> 4:23:05.240 this is manning. It happen here. You can find us 4:23:05.280 --> 4:23:12.840 on Twitter, Instagram at happen here pod. Uh. Yeah, have fun, 4:23:13.400 --> 4:23:19.160 find cool trinkets suppressed the turfs gotta you gotta have 4:23:19.240 --> 4:23:22.000 the trinkets. You gotta find the that's what Goblin knows 4:23:22.040 --> 4:23:34.440 all about getting trinkets. That's right, all right, by folks. Hey, 4:23:34.600 --> 4:23:37.680 we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 4:23:37.720 --> 4:23:40.320 now until the heat death of the universe. It could 4:23:40.320 --> 4:23:42.640 happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For 4:23:42.800 --> 4:23:45.520 more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website, cool 4:23:45.560 --> 4:23:47.520 zone media dot com, or check us out on the 4:23:47.600 --> 4:23:50.280 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 4:23:50.280 --> 4:23:53.240 to podcasts. You can find sources for It could happen here, 4:23:53.320 --> 4:23:56.720 updated monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. 4:23:57.000 --> 4:23:57.760 Thanks for listening.