Speaker 1: Welcome to What Goes Up, a weekly markets podcast. UM
Speaker 1: Veldona Hi across Acid reporter with Bloomberg, and I'm Mike Reagan,
Speaker 1: a senior editor at Bloomberg, and this week on the show,
Speaker 1: cryptocurrencies have had an awful year. The major coins have
Speaker 1: all had in value or worse as the Federal Reserve
Speaker 1: hikes interest rates and froth leaves the most speculative corners
Speaker 1: of the market. At the same time, retail investors have
Speaker 1: bailed and there are no signs that they're making a comeback.
Speaker 1: We'll get into it with a pro who trades crypto
Speaker 1: on a daily basis. But first, Mike, I wanted to
Speaker 1: ask you a question. I'm wondering if you have ever
Speaker 1: been in a book club? As Pavis used to say, data,
Speaker 1: if I wanted to read, I'd go to school. No,
Speaker 1: no book clubs for me. Now. I I have never
Speaker 1: been in a book club. I feel like it's a
Speaker 1: lot of high pressure to actually read the book. You know.
Speaker 1: If there was like a cliffs Cliff Notes club, I
Speaker 1: would join maybe, But um, how about you? Have you
Speaker 1: ever been in a book club? Of course, I'm in
Speaker 1: multiple book clubs right now, multiple book clubs how many
Speaker 1: book clubs can one woman join? I'm in like two
Speaker 1: or three. I want to say they're small sometimes like
Speaker 1: sometimes it's just me and one other person. Part of
Speaker 1: my reason for never joining is a book club is
Speaker 1: I've never been invited to join a book club. So
Speaker 1: I'm not even gonna ask you if you'll invite me
Speaker 1: to one of your multiple book clubs considering Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: not inviting and there's no way, there's absolutely no way.
Speaker 1: There's no room for me in any of your multiple
Speaker 1: book clubs. Consider it. I can't even get into your
Speaker 1: professional network on LinkedIn. I assume I'll never get into
Speaker 1: a La book Yeah no, no Lincoln invitation for your
Speaker 1: notebook club for you. And actually I have a story
Speaker 1: for you. I met with some students the other day
Speaker 1: at the journalism school I went to, and I was
Speaker 1: talking to them about Bloomberg and what it's like working there.
Speaker 1: And afterwards, a bunch of them adam me on LinkedIn,
Speaker 1: and last night I logged in and I accepted all
Speaker 1: of them. So students get in mere students, not actual
Speaker 1: and maybe they'll join my book club too. Yeah that's
Speaker 1: not even that's like LinkedIn fraud. They're not even part
Speaker 1: of your professional network. They are just students. Anyway. Well,
Speaker 1: I've I've got news for you and that next week,
Speaker 1: returning the podcast into our own little book club, So
Speaker 1: you better make some room for your multiple book clubs
Speaker 1: to read. Uh. The Paul Volker Memoirs A great time
Speaker 1: to talk about Paul Vulcar Uh with the inflation flight
Speaker 1: going on, the former Federal Reserve chair. Our own colleague
Speaker 1: Christine Harper, one of my buddies at Bloomberg, actually helped
Speaker 1: him write the memoirs, so we're gonna have her on
Speaker 1: to discuss his fight against inflation in the eighties and
Speaker 1: how it relates to today. So like it or not,
Speaker 1: we're in our own little book club here, Bildono. That's
Speaker 1: actually a very very good tease and a good segue
Speaker 1: for the guests that we have on this week. We
Speaker 1: have Michael Safi. He's the managing partner at Dexterity Capital,
Speaker 1: which is a crypto proprietary trading firm. He's joining us
Speaker 1: this week. Michael, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Great to see you both. So, Michael,
Speaker 1: maybe you can just start with telling us about Dexterity
Speaker 1: and what it means to be running a proprietary trading firm. Sure, Well,
Speaker 1: the short version of Dexterity Capital is where a proprietary
Speaker 1: trading firm. We specialize in high frequency trading of market
Speaker 1: neutral algorithmic strategies for cryptocurrency assets. So there's about a
Speaker 1: team of seventeen of us and together we trade a
Speaker 1: few billion dollars worth of crypto per day. Ue we
Speaker 1: treated over one point two trillion, which made us one
Speaker 1: of the biggest traders of cryptocurrency in the world. So
Speaker 1: that's the very brief version of what we're doing out there.
Speaker 1: Market neutral. An interesting time to be market neutral. Michael considered,
Speaker 1: I feel like we've been so range bound in crypto
Speaker 1: at least the last I don't know, six months or so.
Speaker 1: How do you explain this, uh, this tight range around
Speaker 1: twenty thousand in bitcoin and sort of every other coin
Speaker 1: major coin at least kind of falling in place and
Speaker 1: being ranged bound? What what what explains that in your opinion? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean there's a few factors, as we all know,
Speaker 1: with the FED raising rates, money is tightened up, and
Speaker 1: with the kind of big controversies we've had in crypto
Speaker 1: around the terror crash and around the Celsius collapse, retail
Speaker 1: has kind of fled the market. So what's happened in
Speaker 1: recent months is we're seeing a lot more institutional flow
Speaker 1: than we did over the course of the past five years. Now,
Speaker 1: institutional players are smart, So when we might have been
Speaker 1: playing checkers two years ago, we're playing chess now. And
Speaker 1: when you're playing chess, things tighten up, and these guys
Speaker 1: are keeping kind of things in the same range while
Speaker 1: we kind of do price discovery but still try to
Speaker 1: make a good profit. Maybe you can just talk a
Speaker 1: little bit more about the crypto winter, and you just
Speaker 1: mentioned the FED et cetera and some of the other
Speaker 1: factors that have been behind the draw down that we've
Speaker 1: seen this year. And another thing that's been happening in
Speaker 1: crypto is that the major cryptocurrencies at least have been
Speaker 1: trading in the same way that US stocks have, in
Speaker 1: particular tech stocks. So can you talk about that and
Speaker 1: what some of the factors are behind the draw down? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think you know, with institutions coming in, they're
Speaker 1: playing by the rules they've always played by. So you know,
Speaker 1: we're crypto native Dexterity never traded equities is always traded crypto,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of what we were raised on, so
Speaker 1: to speak, over the course of our five year history.
Speaker 1: But as institutions have come in, they're bringing in the
Speaker 1: strategies they adopt in mainstream markets and equities markets in
Speaker 1: f X, so I think part of what we're seeing
Speaker 1: is that as equities Bitcoin drops and they kind of
Speaker 1: stick together. And it's because the same strategies are being
Speaker 1: enacted by a big players in the institutional world across
Speaker 1: both asset classes. I'm kind of fascinated with the idea
Speaker 1: of high frequency trading in crypto, Michael, because you know,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm an older gentleman, so shall we say,
Speaker 1: you know, I remember the old flash boys days in
Speaker 1: the backlash and sort of a lot of the focus
Speaker 1: of HFT in equities and traditional futures markets, uh, was
Speaker 1: on that idea of latency. You know, if you could
Speaker 1: co locate your machine right next to the matching engine
Speaker 1: at the exchange, you could be the first in and
Speaker 1: first out of every trade. I don't get the impression
Speaker 1: that that's at all factor and crypto at all. Correct
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong. Maybe it is, but you know,
Speaker 1: I'm curious what sort of the traditional HFT strategies. What
Speaker 1: the kind of compare and contrast is between crypto h
Speaker 1: f T and that old school low latency you know,
Speaker 1: venue arbitrage type of h f T that was so
Speaker 1: famous in the flashboy days. Yeah, it was still kind
Speaker 1: of funny talking about crypto n h f T because
Speaker 1: the real flashboys HFT you're talking nanoseconds to microseconds latency,
Speaker 1: and in crypto you don't really get there, you know,
Speaker 1: the differences co location is the exception. Most of the
Speaker 1: major exchanges in the world are all in a WS
Speaker 1: so it's not like I can go buy a machine
Speaker 1: and put it right next to theirs and try to
Speaker 1: minimize the length of my cable down to one meter
Speaker 1: instead of two to be faster. So it's fundamentally different.
Speaker 1: And there's two types of latency to think about. There's
Speaker 1: internal and external. So external is that a w S
Speaker 1: layer I want to submit in order, I've got to
Speaker 1: send it through a bunch of machines across the world
Speaker 1: and try to hit the receiving exchanges exchange as fast
Speaker 1: as I can. Um that's something these days that's on
Speaker 1: the order of milliseconds, And that's true whether you're Citadel
Speaker 1: or whether you're Dexterity. And it's an interesting problem still
Speaker 1: as solved when you talk about all these institutions entering
Speaker 1: into the market, is how much of their strategies are
Speaker 1: are sort of HFT based as well? Is it is it?
Speaker 1: You know, are we really in a speed battle at
Speaker 1: this point among the big traders of the crypto industry?
Speaker 1: Not yet, but we're getting there and we can see
Speaker 1: it now, and part of it is exchanges themselves maturing.
Speaker 1: So we talked about latency, but it's also once I
Speaker 1: sent a trade to an exchange, how are they going
Speaker 1: to process it? And it's getting there first actually gonna
Speaker 1: matter now in traditional markets definitely, but with crypto exchanges
Speaker 1: there's this thing called jitter or is that this kind
Speaker 1: of moment as orders arrive, how fast do they process them?
Speaker 1: Do they queue them up properly? Do they do them
Speaker 1: first come, first serve? And in the past they really didn't,
Speaker 1: so whether I was a hundred milliseconds or a hundred
Speaker 1: and ten million sseconds to get my message out didn't
Speaker 1: matter much. They're improving, though, and this is going to
Speaker 1: enable guys like the Citadels and the Jumps to the
Speaker 1: world to get better. And it also means internal latency matters.
Speaker 1: Because you talk about being in the traditional close to
Speaker 1: the machine, that's not all that matters. It also matters
Speaker 1: how fast you process information you receive from an exchange
Speaker 1: and how fast you make a decision to send a
Speaker 1: message back out. And while we didn't think about that
Speaker 1: too much in the past because it just didn't matter
Speaker 1: with the big guys in, we have to think about
Speaker 1: that now we have to think about arctic to trade
Speaker 1: or internal latency. So we're at the beginnings of this
Speaker 1: kind of arms race to be faster, to be smarter,
Speaker 1: to really win. Yeah, And is there a risk that
Speaker 1: as more and more sophisticated players like this uh sort
Speaker 1: of dominate the volume in crypto? Is there any worry,
Speaker 1: any concerned that you might scare scare away the retail
Speaker 1: investors and traders And you know, do you really need
Speaker 1: them in the market to sort of optimize your your strategies,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, do you need that
Speaker 1: unsophisticated mom and pop trader to to kind of give
Speaker 1: you the best opportunities? Yeah? I think you know, the
Speaker 1: key about retail treaders is they're not price sensitive the
Speaker 1: way institutions are. So institutions will care about a single
Speaker 1: bit a hundred of a hundred will care about that, right,
Speaker 1: but an institution, but a retail treader, they're not bothered
Speaker 1: if they pay one penny or two pennies on top
Speaker 1: of ten dollars to get a trade done. Um, So
Speaker 1: when retail goes, it ends up being just a most
Speaker 1: institutional players scrapping over a tiny little sliver. So having
Speaker 1: retail of the market it's not great right now. But
Speaker 1: because crypto is so unique, because there's new products that
Speaker 1: people don't fully understand, because there's models that haven't been
Speaker 1: developed for decades, like indratify, there's lots of opportunity to
Speaker 1: kind of find alpha. Michael, can you talk a little
Speaker 1: bit more about the involvement of the retail investor because
Speaker 1: obviously we had them involved in when prices were going
Speaker 1: up and everything was great, and so this year really
Speaker 1: we've had the retail investor retreating. I'm wondering if you
Speaker 1: think the retail investor will be staging a comeback or
Speaker 1: if we need the retail investor to really be coming
Speaker 1: back for prices to start to recover. I think we
Speaker 1: do need retail to come back. And the truth is
Speaker 1: crypto is not just supposed to be another speculative asset.
Speaker 1: It's supposed to have cases, it's supposed to change the
Speaker 1: way finance works, and that ultimately relies on retail. Now,
Speaker 1: cryptos had this long journey of trying to find products fit.
Speaker 1: Really what does it matter to the everyday person to
Speaker 1: be using or smart contract or any of these things,
Speaker 1: and were still not there yet. So you know what
Speaker 1: really excited sparked the last bull run? I mean there
Speaker 1: were a number of factors, but a key factor was
Speaker 1: there was lots of cool new projects with unique applications
Speaker 1: that people wanted to try, many of them financial and
Speaker 1: many of them gaming, some things, other things. But without
Speaker 1: that excitement, it's just speculation. So without retail that's excited
Speaker 1: about product fit, it's not gonna be much fun. And
Speaker 1: what is it that would sort of help bring them
Speaker 1: back in? What would it be that we need to
Speaker 1: see maybe some development or something that you can imagine
Speaker 1: that would help them come back into the market. Right,
Speaker 1: FOMO is very important. I think I think I'll point
Speaker 1: to two major categories. You know, One is n f
Speaker 1: T S, which I'm a skeptic of everything. I was
Speaker 1: a skeptic a bit point from day one. UM, and
Speaker 1: so n f T is always kind of seemed fine
Speaker 1: to me. But there is some attraction there. Maybe it's
Speaker 1: because I'm from the last generation, but I don't like
Speaker 1: collecting things I can touch. It turns out a lot
Speaker 1: of younger people do, UM, so they might be value
Speaker 1: and n f T s there, especially if they're tied
Speaker 1: to access. You can get into this club, you have
Speaker 1: these rights. That's an interesting thing. UM. And the same
Speaker 1: with gaming. You know, we've seen loot boxes in traditional gaming,
Speaker 1: you know, buying player cards for FIFA or you know
Speaker 1: v bucks for Fortnite. Bringing that onto the blockchain has
Speaker 1: interesting applications, but it has to be done right, and
Speaker 1: it has to be away consumers can use. This is
Speaker 1: the key problem with crypto. It's a pain to use,
Speaker 1: and no one's really cracked that UI problem yet. I
Speaker 1: think once that's solved it gets much easier to be
Speaker 1: excited about it and retail come back. Well, let's talk
Speaker 1: about that UI issue, because I'm interested. You know, how
Speaker 1: you approach um this fragmented all over the world crypto industry.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't even know what the latest count is.
Speaker 1: What is it like ten fifteen thousand different coins going around?
Speaker 1: You know? So does a firm like your yours you
Speaker 1: just focus on the the majors or are you dabbling
Speaker 1: out into the defy world? You know? How do you
Speaker 1: decide what the trade? Yeah, you know, our bread and
Speaker 1: butter as a high frequency trading firm is high volume.
Speaker 1: So obviously the highest volumes are immediately going to be BTCNA.
Speaker 1: Now what's the flavor of the week is a question
Speaker 1: were always asking because coin x, y Z might be
Speaker 1: having all kinds of volume for reasons that we don't
Speaker 1: really care about. Were in hf T shop, But it's
Speaker 1: very much data and data out. I've seen volume spike
Speaker 1: over there, I see numbers of my back tests that
Speaker 1: are promising. I'm going to go trade that. I don't
Speaker 1: really care what it is. So that's really what we
Speaker 1: succeed at. We look for high volume spikes and activity
Speaker 1: and go trade there as fast as we can. Um
Speaker 1: That being said, sometimes their opportunities and defy. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: interesting signals coming from that part of the world, but
Speaker 1: it's not dexterities kind of center of excellence. Can you
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about what specifically you guys do,
Speaker 1: because you and I have talked in the past about
Speaker 1: market neutral strategies, which we mentioned earlier in the show.
Speaker 1: So layout for us, what is that, what you guys
Speaker 1: are doing, what you're utilizing, what what a market neutral
Speaker 1: strategy really is, And then also tell us how you
Speaker 1: guys are holding up this year and how market neutral
Speaker 1: strategies are holding up this year. Yeah, and you have
Speaker 1: a high like kind of finance. One on one level
Speaker 1: of market neutral strategy is one where you're indifferent to
Speaker 1: the price direction of the assets you're trading. So Dexterity
Speaker 1: doesn't care put Point goes up or down in terms
Speaker 1: of its piano. What we care about is volatility and
Speaker 1: activity and pricing inefficiencies. That's what we really look for,
Speaker 1: and that's what makes us market neutral. And it's kind
Speaker 1: of a few flavored strategies that work like this. You've
Speaker 1: heard of the basis trade, maybe maybe you've heard of
Speaker 1: statistical arbitrage strategies or market making strategies. These are all
Speaker 1: strategies that generate alpha, but at the same time, the
Speaker 1: price of the underlying doesn't really matter to you whether
Speaker 1: it goes up or down, And the good thing about
Speaker 1: market neutral is that whether it's rain or shine, you're
Speaker 1: doing okay. You're printing money and things are going the
Speaker 1: right way. You have a very high sharp strategy. Um.
Speaker 1: The downside is when there's a bull run like there
Speaker 1: wasn't up till at the beginning of this year, Um,
Speaker 1: you're not getting those outsize asymmetric gains of somebody who
Speaker 1: just goes leopard long. The good news is when Celsius
Speaker 1: falls down and so does bitcoins price, you don't get
Speaker 1: hurt either. So that's our goal is to kind of
Speaker 1: be be ready for any market. Can you maybe give
Speaker 1: us an example of a strategy or a trade you
Speaker 1: have utilized recently and talk a little bit more specifically
Speaker 1: about what returns actually look like. If somebody is running
Speaker 1: a good market neutral strategy this year, what do those
Speaker 1: returns look like? Because obviously within crypto everything else has
Speaker 1: been just suffering so much. I think you know. The
Speaker 1: example I used for a typical stat our strategy is
Speaker 1: one inequities. Let's say you buy some uh Coca Cola stock,
Speaker 1: and you see your Coca Cola stock pops ten percent,
Speaker 1: but PEPSI doesn't. Now they're not the same thing coke
Speaker 1: and pepsi. But whatever is good for coke is probably
Speaker 1: good for pepsi. So maybe you sell all your coke,
Speaker 1: you spend that the proceeds it's to buy some pepsi,
Speaker 1: and you wait and if things go right, it also
Speaker 1: goes up ten. And now you've kind of made this
Speaker 1: stat art strategy where you've traded two things that aren't fungible,
Speaker 1: but it was a good signal that you're going to
Speaker 1: make money. It's a bit more sophisticated in that simple example.
Speaker 1: In the real world, and in crypto, you have a
Speaker 1: lot of different products that are margin in different assets.
Speaker 1: So the price of bitcoin in us D tether is
Speaker 1: going to be different than the price of bitcoin in
Speaker 1: us D. They're not fungible, they're not the same product,
Speaker 1: but they're highly correlated, so there might be opportunities there. Um.
Speaker 1: So that's a very simple example of stat art strategy
Speaker 1: that makes sense um in terms of returns. One of
Speaker 1: the problems of being a prop shop is a very
Speaker 1: defensive of what our returns are. UM. But I can
Speaker 1: tell you that if you're doing north, you're probably doing
Speaker 1: it right. But you can get better than that. Wow,
Speaker 1: North I'll take that in this market for sure. That's yeah, Mike.
Speaker 1: I'm curious how you see uh, the market structure in
Speaker 1: crypto evolving. You know, it strikes me as it's probably
Speaker 1: a tough time to be in exchange. You're tougher than
Speaker 1: it was. Volumes are low, prices are low. As you said,
Speaker 1: you're you're losing that retail uh interest. Um are we
Speaker 1: do for sort of a replay of what we saw
Speaker 1: in the equities market where there was a lot of
Speaker 1: consolidation of exchanges and a lot of sort of efforts
Speaker 1: to uh figure out ways to bring in more revenue
Speaker 1: for exchanges, either by selling data or you know, selling
Speaker 1: co location services that sort of thing. Obviously, as you said,
Speaker 1: you can't really co locate in the cloud. But you know,
Speaker 1: walk us through how you see the sort of the
Speaker 1: market structure and the big players evolving from here. Given
Speaker 1: this this sort of lackluster year we've had had in
Speaker 1: crypto um or the boom times over, you know, is
Speaker 1: it is it's sort of a time for belt tightening
Speaker 1: among the major players, and we could see you know,
Speaker 1: a different crypto market structure at the other end of this.
Speaker 1: You know, I think there's two major camps amongst the
Speaker 1: crypto exchanges right now. And keep in mind crypto emerged
Speaker 1: from a type of rebellion. There was a lack of
Speaker 1: trust and institutions people want to have. Didn't trust banks.
Speaker 1: They want to control their own assets, and so a
Speaker 1: lot of the guys who founded the big exchanges have
Speaker 1: that kind of mavericky kind of ideology. Um And you know,
Speaker 1: for Dexterity, the reason we started in crypto was because
Speaker 1: the barriers to entry much lower. I didn't have to
Speaker 1: pay a million dollars a month in data from twelve
Speaker 1: exchanges to get it going. I didn't have to pay
Speaker 1: for co location. I didn't have to buy a microwave tower,
Speaker 1: right And I think some founders of cryptic changes love that.
Speaker 1: That's what they want to see as a level playing field.
Speaker 1: But you can't buy your way in. You have to
Speaker 1: be smarter. And there's other exchanges that are saying the
Speaker 1: TRAFFI market descry five model makes sense, and that's exactly
Speaker 1: where we should go. So I think some exchanges dogmatically
Speaker 1: will say, no, we don't want to sell data, No
Speaker 1: we don't want to sell cola. That's not the world.
Speaker 1: We want the future to be and there are others
Speaker 1: that will say, yeah, this makes perfect sense, and I
Speaker 1: want to kind of limit all the small guys and
Speaker 1: have five major counterparties. Who are you know, the brand
Speaker 1: name h F T s and institutional traders in the world. Um,
Speaker 1: and that's what life should look like. It's hard to
Speaker 1: say who's gonna win. The pessimist Simmy says attracted by guys,
Speaker 1: But as someone who came as an outsider into crypto
Speaker 1: and into finance, I really hope it's the guys who
Speaker 1: are more altruistic and want to see a different financial
Speaker 1: world going forward. Can you talk a bit more about
Speaker 1: the state of play for exchanges right now, because if
Speaker 1: we have people trading less, if if volumes are much lower,
Speaker 1: what does that mean, what does it mean for exchanges
Speaker 1: and can they still continue to make money in this
Speaker 1: environment a fewer people are trading? You know? I think
Speaker 1: what the interesting thing about criptual exchanges is you know
Speaker 1: exactly how much money they're making because their fees are
Speaker 1: public and their volumes are public, and it's not a
Speaker 1: black box. Um. They are the exchange and broker combined.
Speaker 1: So at a minimum, you know what their basic exchange
Speaker 1: fees are and then they have lots of other things
Speaker 1: going on the side, O, t C, d C, what
Speaker 1: have you. Um, the kind of big leading exchanges, they're
Speaker 1: still doing great. I'm not really worried about them. It's
Speaker 1: as you go into those two two and tier three
Speaker 1: exchanges you have to wonder what's going to happen. UM. Now,
Speaker 1: for them, exit kind of can make sense, but only
Speaker 1: if it's the right kind of exit. Now for a
Speaker 1: big exchange, you know, flow comes organically. It's very easy
Speaker 1: for me to trade from Exchange A. Could drop Exchange
Speaker 1: A and start trading on Exchange B. So there's no
Speaker 1: point in buying exchange being necessarily unless they have a
Speaker 1: unique geographical positioning where they've got a user base that
Speaker 1: the big exchanges don't have. So I do expect big
Speaker 1: exchange just to purchase small exchanges that have geographic strength.
Speaker 1: And also exchanges have licenses, and you see an ft
Speaker 1: X and coin base both do this. Coin Base for
Speaker 1: example buying fair x, so they could get that Future's
Speaker 1: license in the US. UM. That's where I see consolidation
Speaker 1: making sense. UM. And in terms of revenue, yeah, they're
Speaker 1: gonna have to get creative, and doesn't mean buying data maybe, um,
Speaker 1: but today, looking at their exchange fees, I think the
Speaker 1: big guys are fine. You know, Michael, It's funny when
Speaker 1: Viltata booked you for this podcast a few weeks ago,
Speaker 1: I think the last thing I ever imagined we'd discuss
Speaker 1: would be Kim Kardashian. But uh, here we are, you know,
Speaker 1: uh SEC dropping a bombshell this week, finding uh Kim
Speaker 1: Kardashian for her uh being a crypto influencer on social
Speaker 1: media without disclosing she was being paid. But I look
Speaker 1: at that action and I really have to scratch my
Speaker 1: head because here, you know, Gary Geintsler of the SEC
Speaker 1: is coming out and basically saying there's these tens of
Speaker 1: thousands of tokens we consider securities. Um. And if you
Speaker 1: read between the lines, the unspoken part is, well, we're
Speaker 1: gonna let all these on you know, unregistered securities be,
Speaker 1: but we're gonna go after the Kim Kardashians of the
Speaker 1: world for shilling them on social media, which, you know,
Speaker 1: it makes me wonder about, you know, is there a
Speaker 1: message from the regulation standpoint of something like that that, look,
Speaker 1: these things are here to stay, whether or not they
Speaker 1: are registered securities. Were not um that the sort of
Speaker 1: horses out of the barn and and the regulators are
Speaker 1: trying now to just uh deal with the market as
Speaker 1: it is rather than blow it up or you know,
Speaker 1: make it start from scratch. But for a guy like you,
Speaker 1: I wonder how much does it matter regulation? I mean,
Speaker 1: is it is it a major risk to you? Or
Speaker 1: is it the type of thing like you know, you'll
Speaker 1: you'll keep dancing while the music is playing and if
Speaker 1: they you know, if the crackdown comes, you'll you'll you'll
Speaker 1: figure out a second career choice. You know, how how
Speaker 1: are you thinking about it all? You know what I mean? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I think you know I'm an explawyer, actually believe
Speaker 1: it or not. But don't worry. I'm much better now.
Speaker 1: And the way, you know, the way regulators have to
Speaker 1: work with crypto, it's so hard. I do not envy them,
Speaker 1: because you've got this borderless asset that's taken off while
Speaker 1: the world was on fire, there were so many things
Speaker 1: happening in the world, and you've had COVID and wars
Speaker 1: and how do you actually worry about regulating crypto of
Speaker 1: all things? And it's stuck up on and it gut big.
Speaker 1: So now they've got this borderless thing and how they
Speaker 1: control it. So you're right. The opinions and the actual
Speaker 1: letners we've seen and they're kind of they're kind of
Speaker 1: hard to read because they don't dictate general rules. They
Speaker 1: indicate them. But I do feel this kind of a
Speaker 1: a difficulty, and how do you make rules for something
Speaker 1: that's so borderless and that's just going to jurisdiction hop
Speaker 1: as need be. Um? Now, do I worry about that?
Speaker 1: A lot? Of course I do, because we need to
Speaker 1: trade these things. The good news is the big exchanges
Speaker 1: out there are also very worried about this, and they're
Speaker 1: getting proactive. Um. Even if you're ask me three years ago,
Speaker 1: it was wild West and I won't mention any names
Speaker 1: by name, but you know them. They were definitely taking
Speaker 1: some chances with the regulators and now they're trying to
Speaker 1: rectify their ways and get into a position where they're
Speaker 1: offering is compliant with the relevant jurisdictions they participate in.
Speaker 1: And so you know, my hope is that we're going
Speaker 1: to get there in time and the regulators won't really
Speaker 1: knock anybody out, and I think that's what they're doing.
Speaker 1: People are cooperative with regulators now, and they're trying to
Speaker 1: find a framework that works because everyone knows this isn't
Speaker 1: going away anymore. Cryptos here to stay. Whether it's a
Speaker 1: chillion dollar asset clus or not, it's pretty darn sticky. Um.
Speaker 1: So that's my expectation is they're going to have to
Speaker 1: kind of struggle to give kind of really clear opinions,
Speaker 1: but they'll get there eventually working with the relevant parties.
Speaker 1: But what does regulation actually look like? Because I've been
Speaker 1: covering crypto for the last four and a half years,
Speaker 1: I feel like at least once a week somebody tells
Speaker 1: me that regulation is coming, regulators are going to crack down,
Speaker 1: and that actually it's going to be good for the
Speaker 1: crypto space. But I feel like a very squashy subject.
Speaker 1: So what does regulating the crypto markets actually look like? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I think I think the problem is that in regulation,
Speaker 1: you have existing frameworks for trap FI and the traditional
Speaker 1: thing you want to do is just apply that to crypto,
Speaker 1: and it's clear it doesn't work. And we saw this
Speaker 1: in the early Internet days when you talked about regulating
Speaker 1: media and you just couldn't do it the same way
Speaker 1: because Internet was borderless, So it's not clear to me
Speaker 1: what the end state is and I don't know if
Speaker 1: it means luciening of certain restrictions in the traditional world
Speaker 1: or tightening in crypto. I think it really could go
Speaker 1: either way. Um, but it's really hard to say. It
Speaker 1: was a problem I count solve. I would go do
Speaker 1: it and hopefully make a lot of money doing it,
Speaker 1: but it's a hard one. How did uh? Was the
Speaker 1: the ethery emerge a good trading opportunity for you guys?
Speaker 1: You know, being high fregnacy trader is what we worry
Speaker 1: about is edge cases, and the merge is an edge
Speaker 1: case in that what's going to happen is trading activity
Speaker 1: going to go through the roo roof or exchange is
Speaker 1: going to explode, you know what could go wrong? And
Speaker 1: we didn't know, and we're conservatives, so we played it safe.
Speaker 1: Now we lost our machines like hawks, um, and we
Speaker 1: just kind of navigated it in a very safe way.
Speaker 1: That being said, there were definitely others who were making
Speaker 1: use of this moment to kind of find ways to
Speaker 1: generate alpha, and I think that the big trade everyone
Speaker 1: was doing, and it appeared in the funding rates on
Speaker 1: perpetual softs of either was simply buying spot either going
Speaker 1: short on the perpetual and then acting that fork because
Speaker 1: when the merge went through, if you were holding any eat,
Speaker 1: you also got e W a proof of workings. So
Speaker 1: now you have two coins, the second one kind of free,
Speaker 1: and then you go dump that as soon as you can.
Speaker 1: And there was a race among exchanges to see you
Speaker 1: could list at first and open up deposits and withdraws
Speaker 1: because they wanted to get the fees off of all
Speaker 1: that dumping. And that's exactly what we saw. We didn't partake,
Speaker 1: but it was you know, it's a fund trade to
Speaker 1: run if that's your kind of thing. Yeah, So I
Speaker 1: get the impression you are mainly trying to profit off
Speaker 1: of price appreciation or depreciation going longer short, not getting
Speaker 1: involved in the yield farming. Uh, you know the terra
Speaker 1: dollar and and Celsius is of the world. Is that
Speaker 1: is that a safe assumption? And and how do you
Speaker 1: you know, how do how does yield farming and that
Speaker 1: whole end of the industry fit into your your strategies
Speaker 1: if it does at all? Yeah, you know, it's not
Speaker 1: something we do much of. Um, and there's there's kind
Speaker 1: of a reason. Now now they can be very profitable
Speaker 1: on a lot of people that are very successful doing it.
Speaker 1: But the thing about and this come almost almost comes
Speaker 1: down to dogma about dexterity, is that we're just a
Speaker 1: bunch of nerds and we really like hard problems, and
Speaker 1: so h f T is a super hard problem. You
Speaker 1: bang your head against the wall for three months until
Speaker 1: you have the Eureka moment and you're rushed with dopamine.
Speaker 1: And that's what I'm looking for, and that's what my
Speaker 1: team is looking for. Your farming school um, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't have the same kind of characteristics of that difficult
Speaker 1: problem solving, at least for us, So it's not something
Speaker 1: we do. I think one thing in defense that would
Speaker 1: be interesting to do that we don't do is MTV
Speaker 1: or minor extraction value, which has to do with optimizing
Speaker 1: your trades on chain, in particular on the ethereum chain,
Speaker 1: to kind of make alpha based on the fact you
Speaker 1: can see what's coming, because if someone summits an order
Speaker 1: on chain, you've got a good fifteen seconds to react
Speaker 1: to it before it actually gets action, and you can
Speaker 1: try to run kind of front run it in a
Speaker 1: very legal and compliant way because it's all public, it's
Speaker 1: not proprietary information. So MTV is cool. Lots of interesting
Speaker 1: problems there. It's like planning poker with your cards up
Speaker 1: and still trying to win um. But we don't do
Speaker 1: that now. Sadly, we just don't have the badly and
Speaker 1: Michael just to to go back to markets again. I'm
Speaker 1: wondering how you guys think about the crypto winter and
Speaker 1: how long that might actually last, because I read a
Speaker 1: lot of notes about what's going on in crypto markets.
Speaker 1: One of the themes that people have been focusing on
Speaker 1: recently is that long term holders really have just been
Speaker 1: sitting on their holdings and their coins really aren't moving
Speaker 1: all that much, and so the thought there is that
Speaker 1: maybe they're just waiting, waiting out and waiting for things
Speaker 1: to get a little bit worse before they actually start
Speaker 1: to get better. So how are you thinking about the
Speaker 1: crypto winter winter and how long it might potentially drag out?
Speaker 1: For Yeah, one of the benefits of being marketing trill
Speaker 1: is I don't have to worry about that a lot.
Speaker 1: Whether it's six months or two years or even longer,
Speaker 1: we're still going to be okay. But I do think
Speaker 1: about it because it's a lot more fun when there's
Speaker 1: a lot of activity, when people are excited about it
Speaker 1: and we're discovering what crypto is actually for in the world. Um. So,
Speaker 1: you know, it's something that I wish I could tell
Speaker 1: you how long it's going to beat last. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but I think a lot of holdlers have said, I've
Speaker 1: seen this before. This has been happening for ten years.
Speaker 1: We've been through cycles, and each dip is bigger than
Speaker 1: the prior, and each wave forward is bigger than the prior.
Speaker 1: And I know a lot of people who are betting
Speaker 1: on that. Um, there's some things this is the last
Speaker 1: one because we've got to a point where the maturity
Speaker 1: of the market is so great and the institutional participation
Speaker 1: has ramped up that after the next bull run there
Speaker 1: might not be another one as it kind of falls
Speaker 1: in line with traditional finance. But it remains to be seen,
Speaker 1: you know, Michael, It's it's fascinating. You know, we talked
Speaker 1: about sort of this range bound market in the major
Speaker 1: cryptos traditional effects markets, though I've been anything but range
Speaker 1: bound this year. You know, we've got this unre letting
Speaker 1: dollar strength, uh week pound. I'm sorry to bring that up.
Speaker 1: I know that's probably sore subject for a guy guy
Speaker 1: based in London, uh hero, I mean, does that influence
Speaker 1: this this false totally in the tradfi traditional uh FX market,
Speaker 1: you know, is there an opportunity there for you? You You know,
Speaker 1: are you trading stable coins against one one another that
Speaker 1: type of thing. Yeah, and it's it's an interesting thing
Speaker 1: because crypto can be margin in anything. So there's certainly
Speaker 1: pairs that our margin in GDP and the pairs margin
Speaker 1: in dollars and margin and stable coins. So they're definitely
Speaker 1: our opportunities there. It was moving so fast and so furious,
Speaker 1: and it's really an area that hasn't been explored in
Speaker 1: the past because FX was relatively stable for the major
Speaker 1: pairs for a long time. Um, So they're definitely were
Speaker 1: opportunities there. Um. But as you said, I'm a Londoner.
Speaker 1: I want things to get back to normal. So my
Speaker 1: hope is things stabilized and we'll just trade group and Michael,
Speaker 1: I think early in the show you mentioned the basis trade,
Speaker 1: which was a really popular trade with institutions a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago. So I'm just taking this opportunity while
Speaker 1: I have you here too, very selfishly ask you what
Speaker 1: are some of the quirky things that are happening in
Speaker 1: crypto markets right now? Maybe something that's going on a
Speaker 1: trade or something that we should all be paying attention to.
Speaker 1: If I could, if I could butt in, you know,
Speaker 1: the non nerds among us might not know exactly what
Speaker 1: the basis trade is. I of course know exactly what
Speaker 1: it is, but maybe some of our listeners maybe start
Speaker 1: off explaining what that is. Michael, Sure, when you've got
Speaker 1: a future product and the underlying spot product, so let's see,
Speaker 1: you've got a BTC spot and you've got a BTC future,
Speaker 1: they'll converge upon the delivery date of that future. So
Speaker 1: by going short on one and long on the other
Speaker 1: based on where the prices are, you know the price
Speaker 1: is going to converge. So you've locked in your profit
Speaker 1: the day you actually make the trade, but then you
Speaker 1: have to wait for the convert it to happen. Whenever
Speaker 1: that future contract is going to settle, you close all
Speaker 1: your positions and you've made your money and you're happy.
Speaker 1: So that's what the basis trade is. And if you
Speaker 1: look back in Q one, crypto basis trades were just
Speaker 1: all the rage because the numbers were well out of whack.
Speaker 1: Things were so frothy, and the futures price of crypto,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's difficult to make sense of it.
Speaker 1: You know, the fruitures price of a barrel of oil
Speaker 1: makes sense because it costs money to keep oil in
Speaker 1: someplace for a quarter before you deliver it. There's a
Speaker 1: cost to carry Crypto there's no cost to carry. So
Speaker 1: the futures price is always kind of an interesting thing
Speaker 1: to look at. What does that yield curve look like? UM,
Speaker 1: So that trade was kind of big then, but really
Speaker 1: in mid kind of settled down. There's still people running it,
Speaker 1: but it's not the biggest yields out there these days.
Speaker 1: But to get to Veldana's point, is there anything sort
Speaker 1: of new and exciting that to replace that? You know,
Speaker 1: there's some opportunities I'll talk about that we're not doing. UM.
Speaker 1: But one of the side effects of the crypto kind
Speaker 1: of downturn is that there were lots of twos that
Speaker 1: were ing on treasuries that are kind of in distress UM.
Speaker 1: And it's almost like a distress asset market where if
Speaker 1: you can persuade enough voters in a dow. And just
Speaker 1: to back up, a dow as a decentralized autonomous organization,
Speaker 1: if you own sub cooin, you can vote on propositions
Speaker 1: that dictate how the data hates. So a lot of
Speaker 1: these dows are distressed, and the prices of these dolls
Speaker 1: are beneath the treasury value. And so the game then is, hey,
Speaker 1: can I convince the rest of the dow to liquidate
Speaker 1: the treasury and then pay it out? And if I
Speaker 1: do that, the liquidation value is going to be greater
Speaker 1: than the price I'm paying of the token. And that's
Speaker 1: because crypto prices are sometimes a ration, and sometimes they
Speaker 1: don't trust the people running the dough. So that's an
Speaker 1: interesting trade We've seen happen a few times over the
Speaker 1: course of the past few months. So one of the
Speaker 1: things that I've been writing about recently are the different
Speaker 1: narratives that are in the crypto space. So, for example,
Speaker 1: one of the narratives is that bitcoin is an inflation hedge.
Speaker 1: Another is that it's a store of value, ETCeteras. Who
Speaker 1: hear you hear about these narratives quite a bit, But
Speaker 1: really the narratives have quieted down this year as prices
Speaker 1: have been crashing, So what is what do you think
Speaker 1: is the narrative right now? If I go on Twitter,
Speaker 1: for example, I see a lot of tweets that say
Speaker 1: one bitcoin equals one bitcoin, which is which has just
Speaker 1: become this sort of crypto meme. So is that one
Speaker 1: of the narratives? What are what are the things that
Speaker 1: are people talking about are latching onto while we're having
Speaker 1: this very bad year for prices, you know, it's hard.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us are waiting for a
Speaker 1: good narrative because narratives are what drive bull markets, and
Speaker 1: I can't say there's a great narrative right now. I
Speaker 1: think one thing to consider those that with institutions coming
Speaker 1: in in size, with h f T players coming in, UM,
Speaker 1: they're learning a lot about what this beast crypto is
Speaker 1: and how it's fundamentally different and how this technology, whether
Speaker 1: it's in crypto or in other kind of places even
Speaker 1: traify it's probably the future UM and so for them
Speaker 1: they are kind of learning how do we how do
Speaker 1: we like tackle this? And so if you're an hf
Speaker 1: T shop from trad fi, you have great latencies. You
Speaker 1: know how to work a fixed connection, which is the
Speaker 1: standard connection among exchanges can trad five. Crypto is weird.
Speaker 1: You have really unique connections to every exchange and everyone
Speaker 1: is different, and you win by finding nuances in the
Speaker 1: integrations the A p I s with each exchange. So
Speaker 1: that's something. Dexterity is really good at UM. You know,
Speaker 1: we're not going to have the same ticket ray to
Speaker 1: hit it up. They're going to beat us there. But
Speaker 1: in terms of connectivity, we spent five years building it
Speaker 1: and figuring it out. So I think, you know, I
Speaker 1: can't say a narrative is going to drive bitcoin. I
Speaker 1: think in amongst institutions, there is a narrative of how
Speaker 1: do they figure out this new asset class and how
Speaker 1: do they solve problems that they haven't solved before. Mike,
Speaker 1: typically we use crypto examples and the craziest things we
Speaker 1: saw in markets. So happy we were able to devote
Speaker 1: this entire episode to talking about some of the things
Speaker 1: that are going on on there. And Michael, I hope
Speaker 1: you came prepared with something. I'll let you go first
Speaker 1: with whatever it is that was the craziest thing that
Speaker 1: you saw in markets this week? Okay, brilliant. Uh, Well,
Speaker 1: as you know, I only read and only watch Bloomberg
Speaker 1: every mole and then something of course because I'm a
Speaker 1: good citizen. Um. But now and again something just cross
Speaker 1: my desk from the publication. And this one had to
Speaker 1: do with Chippotle, which was doing a proof of steak
Speaker 1: the meat position, and so they were running a promotion
Speaker 1: and they were saying, we'll give you off because that's
Speaker 1: how much you power, you say, by not using proof
Speaker 1: of work and instead using proof of steak, we'll give
Speaker 1: you that off a steak bowl. Um, if you use
Speaker 1: tool I think it's called flexa to pay with your ease.
Speaker 1: And so this journalists have gone to try to do
Speaker 1: that and guess to Chipotle and they've got no idea.
Speaker 1: And he says, well, here's the tweet. Look at my
Speaker 1: tweet and they're like, okay, well there's a QR cod
Speaker 1: when you're out, let's scan that. And then an error
Speaker 1: shows up in the terminal and they're like, you know what, man,
Speaker 1: just just take it and leave. You don't to pay,
Speaker 1: And so it was it was a dred percent off.
Speaker 1: So he did really well. But it highlights the really
Speaker 1: the problem with crypto. It's it's not there yet in
Speaker 1: terms of being super usable by the everyday person. And
Speaker 1: that's where we gotta get. That's pretty good proof of
Speaker 1: proof of steak. That Chinese place, Chinese takeout has to
Speaker 1: have proof of walk then, but it's called the sweat point.
Speaker 1: You can use that. Well, that's a good one, Michael, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can't prepared. I like that. Okay. For my craziest thing,
Speaker 1: it's actually not at all markets related, but I'm giving
Speaker 1: myself a pass because I'm hosting the show. So there's
Speaker 1: a farmer in upstate New York near Buffalo, and he
Speaker 1: had set out to grow the heaviest pumpkin in all
Speaker 1: of New York State, and he actually ended up with
Speaker 1: a national championship winning pumpkin. His giant pumpkin clocked in
Speaker 1: at two thousand, five hundred fifty four pounds, which is
Speaker 1: above the previous record of two thousand five eight pounds.
Speaker 1: And what the farmers had to do to keep it growing,
Speaker 1: which is so interesting to me, is they gave it
Speaker 1: fertilizer and help and warm castings whatever that was, and
Speaker 1: chicken refuse, which sounds disgusting, in tons of water. And
Speaker 1: there was a really great quote in the article for
Speaker 1: about this pumpkin. I think it was maybe in the
Speaker 1: Guardian or something, but it said the farmers said all
Speaker 1: the animals and cutters seemed to love this pumpkin more
Speaker 1: than anything in the world. They all want to eat
Speaker 1: on it. And I have some cats and try to
Speaker 1: come and try to scratch it. They think it's a
Speaker 1: big couch. So this was my favorite story that I
Speaker 1: saw this week, and I just wanted to use the
Speaker 1: opportunity to talk about it. That's hilarious. Two thousand, two
Speaker 1: thousand plus pounds of a well, it makes me think
Speaker 1: of I went to UH College in in the state
Speaker 1: of Delaware. I went to the finest university in the
Speaker 1: state of Delaware. I will I will tell you and
Speaker 1: UH in Delaware what they do after Halloween every year,
Speaker 1: as they have something called pumpkin chunkin, which is where
Speaker 1: you build a catapult and you load on your pumpkins
Speaker 1: and the goal is to see who can chuck their
Speaker 1: pumpkin the furthest from the catapult. So I feel like
Speaker 1: if you could do that with this pump you could
Speaker 1: like take out the Russian Army with this thing, if
Speaker 1: if you had a alright, pretty good stiff competition this week,
Speaker 1: I think I don't know I might have to. I
Speaker 1: might have to give it to proof ofstake. I think
Speaker 1: that's my favorite of the week. I'll concede defeat well,
Speaker 1: rare rare time when I'm actually defeated, Rarey rare, Michael,
Speaker 1: I'll concede defeat. But I'll give you mine. Uh. Mine
Speaker 1: is themed appropriately for you too. They're both British related,
Speaker 1: both have a little London connection, and one includes a
Speaker 1: very nerdy book for you old on us. So two
Speaker 1: things going up for auction. One is uh, David Bowie's
Speaker 1: Space Shoot Space Suit Um from the nineteen video for
Speaker 1: Ashes to Ashes is up for auction from prop Store
Speaker 1: Auctions later in the year. This is a story courtesy
Speaker 1: of the Daily Mail, so that's one item going up
Speaker 1: for auction. The other item is a Jane Austin book,
Speaker 1: uh unique first edition of Emma. Now that and the
Speaker 1: story's courtesy of the Telegraph. So one item is yet
Speaker 1: to go up for auctions. So we only have the
Speaker 1: estimated price for that. But we do know that the
Speaker 1: Jane Austen book did sell, by the way, but by
Speaker 1: an American who insisted that at stay in England, so
Speaker 1: it's going to a museum. Uh. Very nice gesture there
Speaker 1: from some rich American, But Michael, I regret to inform
Speaker 1: you you're now contestant on a game show. We call
Speaker 1: the prices precise, and so I need you to guess,
Speaker 1: not the prices right. We're playing the price is precise,
Speaker 1: not the prices right. Yes, yes, any lawyers out there
Speaker 1: for Bob Barker who are listening, this is completely different.
Speaker 1: So I need you to guess which one is a
Speaker 1: higher value and and give me give me a pound
Speaker 1: figure for that value. Will Donna as tradition, you start,
Speaker 1: is it David Bowie's space suit from the video for
Speaker 1: Ashes to Ashes in Night? Or is it that first
Speaker 1: unique first edition of Emma by Jane Austen, I will
Speaker 1: say includes a handwritten from the author message inside it's
Speaker 1: it's definitely the space suit. I'm going with seventy five
Speaker 1: thousand pounds seventy British pounds. Michael. Uh, Let's see how
Speaker 1: your valuation skills are. What do you think which ones higher?
Speaker 1: And what's your your dollar, your pound figure on on it?
Speaker 1: Now you can find out why remarking neutral, it's like
Speaker 1: can never gisces of things. But we'll give it a
Speaker 1: shot and Honestly, they'll donna. You just betrayed your book clubs.
Speaker 1: So I'm really ashamed of you. Anyway, I invite you
Speaker 1: from from my book clubs. You're you're not invited. You're
Speaker 1: no longer invited from to my book clubs. Well, you're
Speaker 1: not invited to my Bowie David Bowie club. No, I'm kidding,
Speaker 1: you're invited. You're invited. I'll clock at at a hundred
Speaker 1: and thirty three thousand pounds because that's what I would
Speaker 1: pay for it. Okay, it's a tough one to referee
Speaker 1: because the Jane Austen book wins three seventy five thousand pounds.
Speaker 1: For the Jane Austin book. Bowie Space suit has not
Speaker 1: yet gone off for auction, so it could go higher,
Speaker 1: but they only expected to fetch eighty one thousand pounds.
Speaker 1: I think the bottom line is you both lose and
Speaker 1: I win. I don't know that's the only that's all
Speaker 1: your fair resolution I can come up with. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I thought you were letting Michael win this week. Well
Speaker 1: he he wins the craziest thing, Uh word, I win.
Speaker 1: I win the prices prices per sype because as we know,
Speaker 1: I have to win something. I have to stroke my
Speaker 1: eagle egoes somehow, somehow in this I'll let you do
Speaker 1: the introduction, and he did very well. They'll down a congratulations.
Speaker 1: I think that's about all the time we have thought.
Speaker 1: Join us for our book club next week. Uh, Michael
Speaker 1: suff I greate to catch up with you and hear
Speaker 1: all about h f T trading and crypto. Fascinating stuff. Michael,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. We were so happy
Speaker 1: to have you on the show. All right, thanks a lot,
Speaker 1: great to speak of you both. That's it for the
Speaker 1: show this week. Don't forget to tune into Bloomberg Crypto,
Speaker 1: a daily Bloomberg I Heeart podcast. You can find it
Speaker 1: on the terminal or wherever you download your podcasts. What
Speaker 1: Goes Up. We'll be back next week. We love it
Speaker 1: if you took the time to rate and review the
Speaker 1: show on Apple podcast so more listeners can find us.
Speaker 1: And you can find us on Twitter, follow Mike Reagan
Speaker 1: at at reag Anonymous, I'm at at Bildonna Hirach and
Speaker 1: you can also follow Bloomberg podcast at at Podcasts. What
Speaker 1: Goes Up is produced by Stacy Wong. Thanks so much
Speaker 1: for listening and we'll see you next week. An