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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abusive power you'd like to share,

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Speaker 1: leave us a message on our hotline number at five

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Speaker 1: one three nine hundred two nine five five four.

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Speaker 2: Sheet us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat purse.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived.

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Speaker 4: To you, I never had a live.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to trust Me. The podcast about.

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Speaker 1: Colds, extreme belief and the abusive power from two farm

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Speaker 1: girls who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc and

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Speaker 1: I am Megan Elizabeth. I really am a farm girl.

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Speaker 1: Are you a farm girl?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, I'm from Kansas. It's kind of farming, but

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Speaker 3: now cools enough.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest and next week's guest is Sinasta Colucci. He

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Speaker 1: is a former member of hippie Christian fundamentalist group Twelve Tribes.

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Speaker 1: The group owns a chain of restaurants called the Yellow Deli.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you've eaten at it, We're going to talk all

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Speaker 1: about it. So today he's going to tell us about

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Speaker 1: how he grew up in Detroit, sometimes going without eating,

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Speaker 1: and how he found twelve tribes when looking to live

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Speaker 1: and work on a farm through a regular program that

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Speaker 1: helps workers find farms to work out, and then how

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Speaker 1: he joined the community despite their talk about the end times.

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Speaker 2: We'll also talk about how he was given a new

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Speaker 2: name and had to sleep in quarters with other single men,

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Speaker 2: the controversy about the practice of child training, how they

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Speaker 2: had to give their assets to the group, and how

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Speaker 2: the group was preparing the one hundred and forty four

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Speaker 2: thousand for the end of the world.

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Speaker 1: Love Sinasta before we dive in, Megan, just the what's

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Speaker 1: your coldies thing?

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Speaker 2: I have a really good one, and I mean that

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Speaker 2: as it's kind of bad, but it's good, Okay.

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Speaker 4: See.

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Speaker 2: So Pat Robertson, you know the seven hundred Club, Well

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Speaker 2: he's come out of the woodwork to say that Putin

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Speaker 2: is being controlled by God. This isn't about Ukraine. He

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Speaker 2: is bringing about the armageddon and the end of times.

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Speaker 2: This is actually about Israel. So he is on national

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Speaker 2: television telling old people.

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Speaker 1: This, Oh my gosh, yeah, wait, it's because of God,

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Speaker 1: because why because it's just.

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Speaker 2: You know, the end times are supposed to happen now,

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Speaker 2: which is also you know, it's just so funny though, right,

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Speaker 2: no one can help but see the world through their

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Speaker 2: very small lens. So it's so interesting. As they get

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Speaker 2: older and older and older, they're like, the world is ending,

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Speaker 2: because it's like, no, your world is ending.

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Speaker 3: You're about to die. Yeah, we're fine.

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Speaker 1: Actually, it's so terrifying to me how anytime something catastrophic

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Speaker 1: or horrible or disastrous happens or evil in this case,

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Speaker 1: people who have this apocalypse mentality and are waiting for

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Speaker 1: the end times see it as a good thing because

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Speaker 1: it's a sign that Jesus is gonna come back. Like, right,

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Speaker 1: that is so so, so so dangerous, like because no,

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Speaker 1: like you're not going to take action. I mean not

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Speaker 1: that guy's pat Robertson is saying action, but like collectively

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Speaker 1: as a framework, it's so dangerous because that is going

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Speaker 1: to lead to inaction absolutely and all kinds of preventable

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Speaker 1: death and disaster.

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Speaker 2: I remember like getting really upset about the rainforest getting

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Speaker 2: cut down in third grade and crying and crying and crying,

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Speaker 2: and my dad being like, Megan, Jesus is going to

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Speaker 2: come back to the earth before anything happens like it's okay,

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Speaker 2: it's just this way of like completely turning off to

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Speaker 2: the needs of our planet. And right even it's a

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Speaker 2: third grader, I was like, now.

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Speaker 1: A good third grader. I don't know that I would

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Speaker 1: have identified that. I was like, oh my god, I

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Speaker 1: can't wait over the Second Coming. Although our church was

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Speaker 1: not as focused on like I think, we still didn't

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Speaker 1: think disaster was a good thing, Like.

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Speaker 3: I still yeah, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, we still like wanted to like help people who

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Speaker 1: were hurting and stuff, right.

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Speaker 3: Just in Mormonism, regular Mormonism.

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Speaker 1: But that leads me to mine, which is just that, oh,

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Speaker 1: Putin is a fucking cult leader.

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Speaker 3: And it is so scary for people who are.

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Speaker 1: Listening in the future and don't know exactly where we're

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Speaker 1: at in the news cycle right now, like this is

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Speaker 1: the week that the invasion of Ukraine has begun. Today

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Speaker 1: now they are like missiles being launched into all of

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Speaker 1: these cities. People are dying, and it is all because

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Speaker 1: Putin has decided that he gets to have Ukraine and

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter who has to suffer as a result. And

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Speaker 1: what's interesting is I've seen some like snippets and tweets

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Speaker 1: about just like what the Russian state media is saying

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Speaker 1: about it, and the propaganda is chilling. I mean it's

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Speaker 1: talking about how he's actually trying to stop the war

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Speaker 1: and Ukraine are the bad guys, and like they don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily have access to a wide range of alternative media.

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Speaker 1: So I'm sure there's so many people in the country

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Speaker 1: who are just taking this in. They're like, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: totally right, because their whole lives are being controlled because

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Speaker 1: authoritarian regimes are just larger cults. Yeah, information control, behavior control,

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Speaker 1: thought control, and the fact that Trump, oh god, it's

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Speaker 1: just I can never this fucking guy. Did you see

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Speaker 1: what he said about these decisions Putin has made.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that they're brilliant.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's called him very savvy and a genius. As

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Speaker 1: people homes are destroyed, as people are fleeing for their lives,

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Speaker 1: as people that fuck fucking six year old child was

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Speaker 1: killed the other day, Like, yeah, real genius. These fucking guys,

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Speaker 1: all the evil guys banded together, which is always interesting

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Speaker 1: to me because I'm like, sorry, I'm rambling, but you

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Speaker 1: know what, fuck it. I'm like, so you guys band together,

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Speaker 1: and then what's the plant? Like you all want to

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Speaker 1: be the ultimate power and be the dominant one. So

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Speaker 1: your plan is to what like dominate everyone else. But

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Speaker 1: then you're just gonna have to fight each other, like

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Speaker 1: there's no version of this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's survivor, you know. Like they're like fine,

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Speaker 2: and then when it gets to the three of us,

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Speaker 2: we'll fight it out. Then they'll be two of us

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Speaker 2: and we'll fight it out, and then they'll be.

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Speaker 3: One of us.

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Speaker 1: It's like you're enabling these villains in other countries and

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Speaker 1: giving them more power. Anyway, it doesn't matter. He's not

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Speaker 1: a president right now. Hopefully he won't be again. He's

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Speaker 1: gonna run again next time. We'll see, hopefully he doesn't win.

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Speaker 1: You guys, I'm stressed.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is another thing.

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Speaker 2: Pat Robertson said he one hundred percent would be re

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Speaker 2: elected president and five years from the day the world

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Speaker 2: would end. So pat Robertson loves saying that the world's

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Speaker 2: gonna end, loves making predictions that have no basis in reality.

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Speaker 2: He's never like sorry, that was wrong. He just steamrolls

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Speaker 2: on like nothing was ever said. He's said the world

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Speaker 2: would end multiple times.

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Speaker 1: But I wish I had the confidence of an evangelist.

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Speaker 1: Preacher or really anyone who predicts a doomsday like I

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Speaker 1: wish I could just go about the world with that

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Speaker 1: kind of confidence, you know, yeah, it's gonna happen. No,

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Speaker 1: well it didn't happen, but that's fine because it's just

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Speaker 1: because it got moved. I know, this kind of confidence

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Speaker 1: in myself.

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Speaker 3: Oh oh yeah, that'd be really great.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, it's fucking devastating, and obviously we stand with Ukraine

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Speaker 1: and fucking man. It is heartening though to see how

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Speaker 1: hard they're fighting back, how much everyone is banded together,

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Speaker 1: and how even you know, there are protests within Russia

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Speaker 1: against the war.

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Speaker 3: So hopefully this doesn't end in just complete and utter

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Speaker 3: disaster for everyone. We'll see, we'll see anyway.

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Speaker 1: So Sinasta, Sanasta is so sweet and I think you

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Speaker 1: guys are going to really enjoy this interview, although also

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Speaker 1: be saddened a little bit. Okay, here we go, right, Welcome,

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Speaker 1: Sanasta Kulucci. Thank you so much for being.

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Speaker 4: Here with us, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we first talked about twelve tribes on the

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Speaker 1: show because of the Marshall fire in Colorado. If anyone

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Speaker 1: didn't hear that episode, apparently, like so there was that

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Speaker 1: big fire that recently happened in Boulder County and there

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Speaker 1: was an investigation going on. I think it's still ongoing,

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Speaker 1: but part of it started. It seemed on Twelve Tribes property,

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Speaker 1: and Twelve Tribes was then the rabbit hole we kind

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Speaker 1: of went down. And that is a group that you

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Speaker 1: used to be a member of.

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Speaker 4: Correct, Yes, that's right.

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Speaker 2: Cool?

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Speaker 3: So how did you join this group? How did you

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Speaker 3: hear about it? How old were you? What was the deal?

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Speaker 4: Okay, I had just turned twenty one, so it was

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Speaker 4: the spring of two thousand and five, and I was

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Speaker 4: looking online for a community. It was kind of a

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Speaker 4: big deal back then, they call them intentional communities. My

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Speaker 4: goal was to find a place where they grow their

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Speaker 4: own food because I was really attracted to that type

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Speaker 4: of lifestyle. I wanted to be a farmer. At the time,

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Speaker 4: I was actually living in Detroit and I was working

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Speaker 4: at a fast food restaurant. So you can imagine with

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Speaker 4: my limited income and my location, it wasn't likely that

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Speaker 4: I was going to have my own farm right. Also,

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Speaker 4: I had just met my dad for the first time

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Speaker 4: only two years prior to that, and he believed that

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Speaker 4: it was close to the end of the world. He

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Speaker 4: talked about armageddon a lot and the apocalypse, and he

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Speaker 4: told me that a safe place to be would be

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Speaker 4: in a community where they grow their own food. Wow.

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Speaker 1: And so you were like nineteen when he's telling you that,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, that sounds right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the concept sort of appealed to me. So that's

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Speaker 4: what I was searching for.

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Speaker 3: Why a farmer, Why did that appeal to you?

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Speaker 4: I guess just the whole aspect of self sufficiency, sustainability.

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Speaker 4: I had a negative experience in college. I was completely broken.

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Speaker 4: Some days I just didn't even eat. So maybe food

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Speaker 4: scarcity contributed to the way I was thinking about it.

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Speaker 4: I just thought it'd be great if I had my

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Speaker 4: own farm and I never had to worry about being

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Speaker 4: hungry again.

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Speaker 3: And your mom was not religious, correct?

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Speaker 4: Correct? Yeah, she had been raised Catholic and at a

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Speaker 4: certain point rebelled against Catholicism. She didn't even really talk

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Speaker 4: about it. I just know that she rejected that belief

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Speaker 4: and God was never even a word that was spoken

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Speaker 4: in our household growing up.

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Speaker 3: So your dad was he a particular religion.

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Speaker 4: No, he basically created his own thing. He was raised

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Speaker 4: Jehovah's witness and later became like a sort of a

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Speaker 4: rastafari and he has long dreadlocks, but he kind of

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Speaker 4: has his own thing which is like a mix between

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Speaker 4: the two. It's very individualistic. He thinks he's going to

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Speaker 4: be a king of one of the tribes. Wow in

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Speaker 4: the next age.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: So your dad's got his own sort of extreme belief

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Speaker 1: going on there. So twelve tribes a little bit of background,

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Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

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Speaker 1: Was founded in nineteen seventy two. I read that the

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Speaker 1: guy had founded it was a high school guidance counselor

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Speaker 1: and former Carnival Barker named Jean Spriggs, and he basically

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Speaker 1: claimed that he was seeking the restoration of the truest

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Speaker 1: form of Christianity. And somehow, I'm unclear on how it

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Speaker 1: flourished so easily, but I read that several thousand communal

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Speaker 1: society across the US and abroad sprung up. And then

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Speaker 1: also they opened a number of locations of this restaurant

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Speaker 1: called the Yellow Deli.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I'd say, what contributes to the initially the fast

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Speaker 4: growing numbers. I think they've sort of tapered off now,

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Speaker 4: But what contributed to it? Was that they always wanted

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Speaker 4: to appeal to pretty much everybody. So they present themselves

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Speaker 4: as hippies to hippies, they present themselves as Christian to

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Speaker 4: the Christians. And during that time in the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 4: there was a lot of so called Jesus freaks literally

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Speaker 4: what they called themselves, people that were communally minded. They

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Speaker 4: were a lot like hippies, but they had this whole

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Speaker 4: Christian perspective and they were crazy about Jesus, so they

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Speaker 4: called themselves Jesus freaks. So a lot of those types

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Speaker 4: of people were coming into the community during that time

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Speaker 4: and became the original leaders of the community, which I said,

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Speaker 4: plural leaders. That's another big contributing factor is that Yonik

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Speaker 4: was always wanting to sort of delegate authority and he

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Speaker 4: would always say, you know, I'm I'm not the king,

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Speaker 4: I'm not. He wanted there to be lots of leaders.

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Speaker 3: That's interesting, that's unique, right, So.

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Speaker 4: I think that might have also contributed to the growth

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Speaker 4: of the community.

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Speaker 3: Wow, that's so smart.

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Speaker 2: You build a deli and you make it seem cool

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Speaker 2: for everyone who doesn't like food and something that appeals

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Speaker 2: to you.

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Speaker 1: Brilliant, who doesn't like food and something that appeals to me.

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Speaker 3: If you don't, you're the only ones.

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Speaker 1: No, Yeah, so it sounds like it's really just a

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Speaker 1: part of this movement in the seventies. There are so

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Speaker 1: many communal groups at that time, and yeah, it's so

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Speaker 1: interesting that like combination of the hippie lifestyle and the

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Speaker 1: sort of Christian framework, because they seem.

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Speaker 3: So opposite of each other.

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Speaker 1: But there certainly were a ton of groups that really

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Speaker 1: combined those things. So by the time you joined, you

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Speaker 1: joined in two thousand and five, I did you find it?

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Speaker 4: So I found the community online. There's actually a program

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Speaker 4: that helps young people like me connecting young people that

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Speaker 4: want to work on farms with the farmers themselves. It's

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Speaker 4: called Willing Workers on Organic Farms. They have a website,

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Speaker 4: and I'm not completely sure about this, but they might

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Speaker 4: have since then removed the Twelve Tribes from their website.

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Speaker 4: So I saw them on that site. I got their

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Speaker 4: email address. They have their own website themselves, which I've

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Speaker 4: heard a rumor that they've taken it down ever since

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Speaker 4: this whole controversy with the fires in Colorado. But they

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Speaker 4: did have a website at that time, and there were

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Speaker 4: email addresses for every community. I got in touch with

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Speaker 4: the community in New York. They have a farm in

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Speaker 4: Bellows Falls. It's called the Basin Farm, and that was

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Speaker 4: where I originally thought I would like to go to.

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Speaker 4: When I got in touch with them, I told them

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Speaker 4: I'm in Michigan. They said that the Midwest would be

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Speaker 4: a better option for me, and that maybe the farm

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Speaker 4: in Missouri, so a little bit closer. As it turns out,

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Speaker 4: they have each tribe is broken down by region, so

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Speaker 4: like they wanted me to stay in my region, as

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Speaker 4: it turns out. So then I got a hold of

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Speaker 4: someone at the Missouri Farman started emailing him.

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Speaker 1: So there is a website twelve Tribes dot org. I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at it right now. It's still it says yeah,

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Speaker 1: it says who you are. There's the people being gathered.

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Speaker 1: The image on the homepage, it's an illustration.

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Speaker 3: I'm not trying to be judgmental.

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Speaker 1: But it really looks like it's out of the movie Midsomar.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying, but it sounds like a really noble idea.

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Speaker 1: Communal living sounds very appealing to me. Growing your own

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Speaker 1: food sounds very appealing to me. All these things, like

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Speaker 1: I absolutely get why you'd want to live in a

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Speaker 1: situation like this. I can't believe you just like googled

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Speaker 1: it and like.

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Speaker 3: Found your group.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you basically like just move there, Like how

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Speaker 1: does it work?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I started talking to a man that called himself

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Speaker 4: Ben Shimone. As it turned out, that wasn't his real name.

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Speaker 4: His real name was Scott. But when you join the community,

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Speaker 4: they give you names. They give you a new name

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Speaker 4: red flags a Hebrew name, So Ben Shimone means son

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Speaker 4: who hears. Started emailing him and he invited me to

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Speaker 4: come visit. Within a few weeks, I was on a

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Speaker 4: Greyhound bus, got a one way ticket. I had left

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Speaker 4: my apartment in Detroit. Another man picked me up at

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Speaker 4: the Greyhound station. It wasn't Ben Schimone. It was a

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Speaker 4: man named David.

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Speaker 1: Can you just describe for us, Like basically, the deal

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Speaker 1: is that you work the farm and you get room

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Speaker 1: and board and you get everything taken care of in

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Speaker 1: terms of like your needs mett yes, and do you.

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Speaker 3: Get paid additionally, Like if you need stuff.

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Speaker 4: No, no, no pay.

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Speaker 3: What if you like need clothes or what if you

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Speaker 3: want to go buy a book or something?

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Speaker 4: The clothes would be a yes. They provide you with

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Speaker 4: your basic needs. They don't encourage people to read outside literature,

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Speaker 4: and if there's anything they do want you to read,

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Speaker 4: they'll tell you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So tell us about those first weeks. Was it exciting,

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Speaker 1: like did you make friends?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 3: What was that like?

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Speaker 4: Yes, I was very excited. I felt like I had

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Speaker 4: found my people, and I liked the fact that they

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Speaker 4: put me to work right away because at that time

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Speaker 4: it was like I needed my life to have purpose

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Speaker 4: and I needed to feel like I wasn't just mooching

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Speaker 4: off of somebody. I knew how that had felt in

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Speaker 4: the past, and I hated that feeling. I liked to

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Speaker 4: be productive and feel like I'm contributing to the group.

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Speaker 3: Who did you feel like you had mooched off of before?

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Speaker 4: For a year before college, I was living with my

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Speaker 4: mom's friend in ann Arbor. She actually got evicted from

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Speaker 4: her apartment and we were having to go to her friends,

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Speaker 4: people I didn't even know, stay at their homes and

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Speaker 4: we would bounce from house to house like every week.

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Speaker 4: And I was still finishing high school. I was really

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Speaker 4: small and scrawny. I looked like I was twelve, and

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Speaker 4: when I went into places to apply for work. People

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Speaker 4: had really laughed at me. So I didn't find any

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Speaker 4: work that whole year, and I was bouncing around from

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Speaker 4: place to place, basically living out of the suitcase. Wow.

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Speaker 4: I just felt bad like I wasn't contributing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my gosh, well this is important context, Anasta.

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Speaker 4: Visit my books, by the way.

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Speaker 3: We will shout your book out.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: What is it called again, let's just shout it out

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Speaker 3: right now.

354
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Speaker 4: Called better than a Turkish prison. What I learned from

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Speaker 4: life in a religious cult?

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Speaker 3: Nice? Awesome? Okay.

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Speaker 1: So you were living this sort of like unstable really

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Speaker 1: life and you get to this place and you're like,

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Speaker 1: I have a home. I can contribute, like I have

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Speaker 1: some direction now basically, And I.

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Speaker 4: Learned all about farming, which was exciting. My first night there,

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Speaker 4: I got to milk the goats. As it turned out,

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Speaker 4: Ben Shimone was the gardener, and he taught me all

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Speaker 4: about gardening, and they assigned him as my shepherd, which

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Speaker 4: is somebody that guides you. So he was like my

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Speaker 4: mentor from then on.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting, like an AA sponsor, but like a cult sponsor.

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Speaker 3: So was he a single brother as well?

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Speaker 2: I was, yes, Okay, So can you tell us a

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Speaker 2: little bit about what it means to be a single

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Speaker 2: brother and what that looked like.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so they have things divided for the sake of order. Obviously,

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Speaker 4: single men and single women are so upgraded. We have

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Speaker 4: separate rooms, and would we would all the single brothers

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Speaker 4: would sleep together in the same room, the single sisters

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Speaker 4: would sleep together in the same room, and the married

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Speaker 4: people would each get their own rooms, all for the

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Speaker 4: sake of order, and you know, fulfilling biblical law about

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Speaker 4: the sanctity of marriage and all that.

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Speaker 1: I kind of want just more of a picture of life,

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Speaker 1: like we were a lot of the people young.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there were a lot of children that were born

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Speaker 4: and raised within the community, a lot of young adults

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Speaker 4: that had grown up there and lived there their entire lives.

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Speaker 4: And those people were the most impressive people to me.

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Speaker 4: I was more impressed with them than anyone I had

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Speaker 4: ever met in my life. They were all excellent musicians,

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Speaker 4: They were all very very friendly, sociable. I mean, they

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Speaker 4: lived with like a ton of other people their whole lives,

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Speaker 4: and they grew up being raised by these like lots

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Speaker 4: and lots of different parental influences and just being constantly

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Speaker 4: taught and motivated. The children never have like playtime. There's

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Speaker 4: never just you don't see a kid just sitting on

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Speaker 4: his tablet or you know, having time alone. They're always

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Speaker 4: with an adult learning something, learning how to cook, learning

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Speaker 4: how to garden, how to milk the goats. They're always

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Speaker 4: being taught something. It was pretty much mandatory that the

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Speaker 4: kids at some point learn an instrument. The boys were

400
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Speaker 4: encouraged to learn guitar. The girls had their choice of, like,

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Speaker 4: I don't know violin, and that just happens to be

402
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Speaker 4: my favorite instrument. I know. There were a lot of

403
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Speaker 4: girls that in the earlier days learned piano. But Yo,

404
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 4: Nate started having a problem with piano. It's an obscure

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Speaker 4: Bible reference, but he called it a Nicolatin instrument. The

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Speaker 4: Nicolatins are referenced in the Book of Revelation, and they

407
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Speaker 4: were the ones that wanted to be like the pompous leaders.

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Speaker 4: So he felt like the piano was overpowering, like leading

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Speaker 4: the orchestra too much or whatever.

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Speaker 3: The Book of Revelation is what this is A lot

411
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Speaker 3: based on chrag, A.

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Speaker 4: Lot of it, yes, because they believe that we're in

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Speaker 4: the in times and it's their job to bring about

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Speaker 4: the end.

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Speaker 1: So when you, like first got there, were they talking

416
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Speaker 1: to you about their sort of belief system from the beginning.

417
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Speaker 4: That picked me up from the bus station. He had wild,

418
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Speaker 4: frizzy hair, it was like grayish black and out of

419
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Speaker 4: control beard and the ponytail. He looked at me and

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Speaker 4: his eyes kind of flickered and he had this weird,

421
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Speaker 4: creepy smile across his face, and he said, we're in

422
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Speaker 4: a covenant to die to ourselves. And he started telling

423
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Speaker 4: goodness all about the end of the world and what

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Speaker 4: it says in the Book of Revelation. And I didn't

425
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Speaker 4: understand anything he was saying, Like, I was like, what's

426
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Speaker 4: that mean? I thought, is this a suicide pack? What's

427
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 4: he talking about? And then he starts talking about the

428
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Speaker 4: male child. We're raising the male child. He had just

429
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Speaker 4: gotten done telling me about his son. His son's name

430
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 4: was Hananel, and so he's going on and on about

431
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Speaker 4: the male child. I think he's talking about his son,

432
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Speaker 4: but really he's talking about the Book of Revelation. The

433
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Speaker 4: one hundred forty four thousand that are sent out to

434
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Speaker 4: be slaughtered to the twelve tribes believe is also the

435
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 4: male child from the Book of Revelation, where it talks

436
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Speaker 4: about a woman who is pregnant and standing on the

437
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,439
Speaker 4: moon clothed with the sun, and then it says she

438
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Speaker 4: gives birth to a male child and then has to

439
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Speaker 4: protect the male child fleet to the wilderness where she's

440
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Speaker 4: being pursued by the beast. So it's this whole like

441
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 4: really symbolic, illustrative thing. And the Book of Revelation it's

442
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 4: referring to a generation of pure children that they're going

443
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:34,119
Speaker 4: to raise.

444
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,640
Speaker 3: Is it like the rerising of Christ?

445
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 4: It's like right before icee icee, So they're going to

446
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 4: send out their own children, all males for some reason,

447
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 4: like in pairs of two from each community. Right in

448
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 4: the Book of Revelation it talks about twelve thousand from

449
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,919
Speaker 4: each tribe. So that means they would have to have

450
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 4: six thousand communities in each tribe and send out two perfect, sinless,

451
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 4: spotless males from each of those communities in each tribe.

452
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,399
Speaker 4: So the total sent out would be one hundred and

453
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:05,199
Speaker 4: forty four thousand.

454
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 1: Is that like Jehovah's witnesses and that it's like the

455
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 1: number of chosen people?

456
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 3: One hundred forty four thousand.

457
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 4: Except that in this case, they believe that that's the

458
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 4: number of martyrs that they're gonna send out at the cool.

459
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 2: So they made the Book of Revelations even scarier, which

460
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 2: is hard to do.

461
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, so there's Yeah, they're sending out their own children to.

462
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 3: Be that's exciting.

463
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 4: Wow.

464
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 3: Okay, what does that look like exactly?

465
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 4: So what it looks like exactly is that those children

466
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 4: would go out and start preaching the gospel and be

467
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 4: a distraction while the other community members flee to the wilderness,

468
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 4: to a place prepared for them by God.

469
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:40,120
Speaker 3: Wow.

470
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 4: As it says in the Book of Revelations, So while

471
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,880
Speaker 4: the beast is pursuing them, the one hundred forty four

472
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 4: thousand distract. Basically, they believe the whole world will be

473
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 4: evil led by the Antichrist and the one hundred forty

474
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 4: four thousand. Their mission is to find, like any good

475
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 4: people left that will listen to the gospel.

476
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Oh and what did you think of that

477
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 1: when you heard that?

478
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 4: Oh? I had already heard all that crazy stuff in

479
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 4: so I don't know it, just like okay.

480
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 1: Cool, yeah, I mean, well, the number stuff was already

481
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 1: there in Jeovah's witnesses beliefs, and you know, he obviously

482
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: had some apocalyptic beliefs. What else were some of the

483
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 1: general teachings and lifestyle stuff.

484
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 4: Well, that one was a big focus because they used

485
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 4: that vision in their daily life as like they had

486
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 4: a big focus on training the children. So child training

487
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 4: was a big aspect.

488
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 3: Like to be martyrs.

489
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 4: Well, they teach the children that their purpose is to

490
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 4: be rulers. That's their eternal purpose, to be kings and

491
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 4: queens of the universe.

492
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 1: Wow, so they would all be kings and queens. I'm

493
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: just trying to understand they would all be kings and

494
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: queens of the universe or is it like Mormonism where

495
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: they would each kind of have their own world.

496
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, each would have their own world and then galaxy

497
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 4: and then it just keeps spreading it.

498
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,360
Speaker 2: That's right, so many confused messages. You're a martyr and

499
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 2: you're a king and queen.

500
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, because you get raised up again when you're sacrificed

501
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 4: to God. He doesn't just write, right.

502
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: If you live the hard test life on Earth, then

503
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 1: you'll be rewarded basically with the world.

504
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

505
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: That's very similar to LDS Police, which is what I

506
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: was raised as you know, I grew up thinking, yeah, well,

507
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: one day I get to be God too. That'll be

508
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: exciting when I have my own world.

509
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 2: Were the weddings like in your book, I was reading

510
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 2: that they're quite the experience.

511
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 4: Yes, So the weddings are designed to be what the

512
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 4: Twelve Tribes calls a pre enactment, not a re enactment,

513
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 4: but a play that pre enacts what they believe will

514
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 4: happen in the end of days, including the male child.

515
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 4: I got to actually play the male child. Not going

516
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 4: to recreate that, but you just run in and you scream,

517
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 4: and you've got a bloody t shirt and you scream

518
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 4: master as you're like clutching your chest. Oh my god,

519
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 4: it's very busy. It's like it's a crazy play. Is

520
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 4: what they put on for a wedding. And the groom

521
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 4: is the king. He represents Yashuah Yashua is what they

522
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 4: call Jesus of the Bible. Okay, they call the Savior Yashua.

523
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 4: They believe that was his actual Hebrew name. Okay, so yeah,

524
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 4: the groom represents Jesus or Yashua's the Twelve Tribes. So

525
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 4: he's basically pretending to be Jesus throughout the wedding, and

526
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 4: the bride is pretending to be the twelve tribes.

527
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 1: Okay, so you have Jesus, you have twelve tribes, and

528
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: then the man child are all the martyrs.

529
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they get a single brother to play the

530
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 4: male child, and then you have there's a point in

531
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 4: the wedding where the king calls for his bride, and

532
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 4: that's a really beautiful part where it's like what you

533
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 4: would expect at a wedding, Like the groom is on

534
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 4: the stage and he calls for his bride and she

535
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 4: comes running to him like that's not too out there,

536
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 4: and so they joined together. And then there's a dance

537
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 4: afterwards called the Victory Dance, and it's like victory over

538
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 4: the enemies. This is where starts getting really weird. They

539
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 4: have like some sort of round thing. It's a round,

540
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 4: spinny thing with the names of different enemies hanging from it.

541
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 4: The groom is supposed to tear down the enemies one

542
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 4: by one. WHOA. So you have names like selfishness, greed,

543
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 4: all these like really crazy stuff you wouldn't normally see

544
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 4: that in a wedding. There's one that says hatred or envy.

545
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 4: I don't know, it's just like all the sins and

546
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 4: he's just tearing down all these enemies. You know, pride

547
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 4: is a big one. They tell you to deal with

548
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 4: your pride, and you know they consider that to be

549
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 4: a big enemy.

550
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 3: So it's like a play.

551
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, And they invite guests people that have no idea.

552
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: This is their first sight, just ran right, so they're like, oh,

553
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to a wedding by a.

554
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 4: Lot of outside right to the wedding to witness play. Yeah.

555
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 2: Has anybody joined from coming to the wedding because you

556
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 2: wrote that people sometimes really liked it.

557
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, some people were very touched by

558
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 4: witnessing a wedding and would join afterwards.

559
00:26:59,000 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 3: Wow.

560
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: So can you talk to us about some of the

561
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: recruitment tactics.

562
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 4: Yeah. So my favorite one is there's three big buses

563
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,719
Speaker 4: that they built. There's the Peacemaker, Peacemaker two, and then

564
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 4: the Hippie Bus. The Peacemaker buses are like double decker

565
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 4: they're painted really beautifully like Aisian maroon. The inside is

566
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 4: all decked out in wood and upholstered really nicely. The

567
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 4: Hippie bus is just an old school bus that they

568
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 4: painted to look like a hippie bus. It's not like

569
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 4: flowers and little birds and peace signs, different designs that

570
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 4: you would expect to see on a hippie bus. It's

571
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 4: really colorful. So they take those buses to different events, concerts, festivals,

572
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 4: Grateful Dead shows. Before Yo Nick died, he was obsessed

573
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 4: with Bob Dylan, And this was towards the end of

574
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 4: my time in the Twelve Tribes. It was only a

575
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 4: few years before he died. He suddenly became obsessed with

576
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 4: Bob Dylan, and he was convinced that Bob Dylan was

577
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 4: going to be saved and become a member of the

578
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 4: Twelve Tribes. So he started sending out people.

579
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 3: Wow, the concerts.

580
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 4: Wherever he went, the Twelve Tribes were stocking here.

581
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 3: Oh my god, a.

582
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 4: Free paper into his hands. So like wherever he went,

583
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 4: Nate would send out the local community there to go

584
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 4: to the Bob Doan. Yeah. Sometimes they bring their buses.

585
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 3: Wow.

586
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: It's fascinating how groups will, like their leaders, will latch

587
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: onto some celebrity off in a musician that they think

588
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: is going to like be a part of their future.

589
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: Like we've had groups where they believe that Delly Parton

590
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: was destined to become a member. I know of a

591
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,959
Speaker 1: group where they think the Queen is going to come

592
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: visit them, like it's it's really really interesting. And also

593
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: whoever they pick is super interesting. Bob Dylan makes sense,

594
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: I guess in this case, I like, I get how

595
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: he would seem to.

596
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 3: Be aligned somehow. I don't know.

597
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.

598
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 3: Is it hard to leave? Do they let people leave easily?

599
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 4: It's very difficult to believe. When you join, you're told

600
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 4: to give up all your possessions. If you own a house,

601
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 4: you give it up. The community now owns, not like

602
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 4: as soon as you pishit them. But once you're baptists,

603
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 4: if you've heard the Gospel and they convince you to

604
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 4: be baptized, it's you're making a covenant for Wow, and

605
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 4: you do as they say, and you give up all

606
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 4: your possessions, as it says in the Book of Acts

607
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 4: to the apostles, which are the leaders of the community.

608
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 2: That's what the religion I was raised was based on

609
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 2: that exact thing. So it's very interesting that the two

610
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: went in such separate directions.

611
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: You didn't have anything to really sign over to them

612
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: when you first joined, though, right yeah.

613
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 4: Yeah. It was like, what am I giving like, because

614
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 4: they would teach you that whatever you give up you

615
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 4: get a hundred times. They get that from the Book

616
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 4: of Luke, and I'm like, what am I going to

617
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 4: get a hundred times? Yeah?

618
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: Right, So there are a few things that people kind

619
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: of see as red flags in this group. And I

620
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: saw you did a sort of an ama on Reddit

621
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: and one of the things that came up was this

622
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: doctrine of a small read like rod to punish children.

623
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: And you were kind of saying, and you can say

624
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: it in your own words, but you were kind of saying, like,

625
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: while that is not great, I would say that abusive

626
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: children is not like the big takeaway from the group.

627
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 3: Can you kind of talk more about that?

628
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 4: So, in hindsight, what I would say was abusive was

629
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 4: more psychological. I still to this day, I believe that

630
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 4: a lot of the accusations against them were exaggerated. I'm

631
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 4: not trying to defend them, I'm just trying to tell

632
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 4: it like it is. Yes, I do have criticisms for

633
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 4: them too, but you hear all these horror stories like

634
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,479
Speaker 4: children getting beaten with wooden mallets and just children getting beaten,

635
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 4: bloody and when you read media stories about the Twelve Tribes,

636
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 4: it's stuff that you would never see in one of

637
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 4: their communities. Like, if it happened at all, it was

638
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 4: on an individual ley. This isn't something that they were taught.

639
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 4: What they were taught, very specifically, was the proverbs. There's

640
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 4: one proverb that says, fully is bound up in the

641
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 4: heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives

642
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 4: it far from him. You know, spare the rod, spoil

643
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 4: the child. That's the one everyone knows. It says, don't

644
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 4: be afraid to beat your child. If you beat them,

645
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 4: you'll save their soul from death. If you beat them,

646
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,719
Speaker 4: they will not die. So they are taught those things.

647
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 3: My parents said that all the time.

648
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 4: They're also instructed how to do it to be a

649
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 4: you know, spanking on the bottom with a flexible, thin

650
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 4: wooden rod. Now what I currently believe this wasn't what

651
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 4: I believed at the time. Obviously I took in like

652
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 4: everything they told me, and I went with it. What

653
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 4: I currently believe is the consensus among psychologists that spanking

654
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 4: a child damages them psychologically. I don't believe that the

655
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 4: way the Twelve Tribes do it, or the way they're

656
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 4: taught to do it. If they do it right, I

657
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 4: don't believe that it causes lasting physical harm. The worst

658
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 4: I've seen was little like I hate to sound like

659
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 4: I'm cruel and like I don't care. I'm just like

660
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 4: trying to bring the truth. Like compare to the exaggerations,

661
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 4: I've seen little red marks, like little red lines, not

662
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 4: like broken skin or anything, but like little red marks

663
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 4: that go away after a little while. I also don't

664
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 4: like what they spank children for. That part is also cool.

665
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 4: I believe they'll spank them for just playing. Oh really,

666
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 4: because a child is supposed to be focused all the time,

667
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 4: they call it. They call it dissipating. If a child's playing,

668
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 4: telling jokes and laughing excessively, they'll call it foolishness. So

669
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 4: they're really really strict about it. So that's why I

670
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 4: say that the most abuse within the communities is psychological,

671
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 4: not physical. I've witnessed a lot of psychological.

672
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: Right, So they're basically teaching kids that fun is bad.

673
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 4: One is bad. Yeah, you're being raised to be royalty.

674
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 4: M you wear a diadem after you're baptized, which signifies

675
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 4: that you're going to have a crown. Placed on you're

676
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 4: going to be a king or a queen, so you're

677
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 4: being raised as such. You can't just be a commoner

678
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 4: just playing like a common child.

679
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 3: That's really sad.

680
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: I appreciate the distinction you're making because when people sensationalize

681
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: occult a group, it tends to take the focus away

682
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: from the psychological abuse, and then it just really becomes

683
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: all about someone being physically harmed, which obviously should never

684
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: ever happen, but the more lasting damage tends to be

685
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: in the psychological realm exactly. So, I personally do not

686
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: think anyone should spank their child, and definitely not hit

687
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: them with an instrument.

688
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 3: I think that is wrong.

689
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 4: That's what I believe now is thinking damage as a child.

690
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 4: So rightologically I do not spank my child. I have

691
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 4: an eight year old son. I've definitely changed my opinion since.

692
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: Right, but it breaks my heart though that a kid

693
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: would just be literally being a kid. Play is so

694
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: important for a development into a human like I can't

695
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: imagine the lasting damage that would do if you get

696
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: punished every time you just like experience joy. Basically, it's

697
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: really sad, right, did you have any romantic interests?

698
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 4: A few times the first time. It was after I'd

699
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 4: been there for two years, when I get the facts straight.

700
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 4: There was a festival and people came through from California.

701
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 4: One of them was Medviser. He was like a tribal leader.

702
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 4: He was kind of like Yo Nick's right hand man,

703
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 4: but he hadn't been there since the beginning. He was

704
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 4: quite a bit younger than Yo Nicks, so Yoonick kind

705
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 4: of took him on mentored him, and he became a

706
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 4: tribal leader for the West Coast. He came through with

707
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 4: his family and his oldest daughter. He had adopted her.

708
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 4: She was mixed like me. I believe she was nineteen

709
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 4: at the time. If I had been there two years,

710
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 4: I would have been twenty three. And when I saw her,

711
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 4: I just thought she was beautiful. And after they had

712
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 4: been there a day or two, I started having thoughts

713
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 4: about like, could this be my wife? Because you know,

714
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 4: at that time I had a very religious mentality, and

715
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 4: they teach you that God will provide you with a

716
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 4: wife if you're faithful, right, so I had. I started

717
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 4: having a lot of deep thoughts about being a husband

718
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 4: and a father, and so then I eventually worked up

719
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 4: the nerve to go to Mevesara directly and talk to him.

720
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 4: I later got corrected for that because apparently that's not

721
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 4: the right chain of command. You're supposed to go to

722
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 4: your shepherd first, and then they go to your heads

723
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 4: of households, and then they ask the father of the

724
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 4: girl you're asking about.

725
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: Wow, I can't believe you made that mistake, Sanasta, But.

726
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was horrible with me to go to the

727
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 4: father of the girl.

728
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 3: I was interested in, and was she interested in you?

729
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 4: I asked about her and yeah, I asked about her,

730
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 4: and he gave us permission to write letters to each other.

731
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 4: They eventually they went back to California and I was

732
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 4: still in Missouri.

733
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 3: M And do girls get to say and would they marry?

734
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 4: I don't really know it, Like, I don't know if

735
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 4: anybody really gets to say, because it's like the married

736
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 4: couples that have been there the longest, they make up

737
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 4: what's called the social leaders, Like they have social meetings

738
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 4: in each community and they actually decide who to put together.

739
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 3: Wow, Okay, it's weird.

740
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 4: So they can tell you like if you can and

741
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 4: can't get married, who you can marry. And as a

742
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 4: single brother, you're always told like, well, I said this already,

743
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 4: that God will provide you, you'll be given a wife.

744
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 4: So it's sort of like a possession. They even refer

745
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 4: to it as like your most prized person. Oh God,

746
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 4: So it's like this thing that towards the end of

747
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 4: my time in the community, that was one of the

748
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 4: things that really bothered me, like, how can you treat

749
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 4: a human being like a possession to be given to say? Right,

750
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 4: but that's how you're taught to look at women. As

751
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 4: a single brother, I didn't feel like they had to

752
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 4: say in it.

753
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 3: Could you tell us? I don't know, you might be uncomfortable,

754
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 3: but you did write about it.

755
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: But just what they would encourage the single guys to

756
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 2: do after showers.

757
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 4: Right before, Lets be clear about that. It was before shower. Yeah,

758
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 4: they encouraged the single men to masturbate, and it was

759
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 4: every few days, you're supposed to masturbate to control your urges.

760
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they don't think it's a sign. That's usual surprise.

761
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 4: With my limited experience in religion, I had a view

762
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 4: of what I thought was holy and unholy, and my

763
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 4: impression of masturbation was that it was entirely unholy. So

764
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 4: when I found out that they do that. Actually, my

765
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 4: first reaction was wait, Ben Shimon, like I thought him

766
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 4: as this man of God. Like They're like, yes, everybody does.

767
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 4: And I'm like, what about y'all They're like, yeah, he

768
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 4: did that.

769
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 3: Wow, they told you that Jesus.

770
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 4: Man, and he was. He was tempted as a man,

771
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 4: so he would have had to.

772
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 2: But you just weren't supposed to think about anything sexual.

773
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 2: You were just supposed to let your mind go blank.

774
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 4: It was supposed to be a mechanical release, right, a

775
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 4: mechanical release. Don't think Yeah, so you're sitting there in

776
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 4: the shower going don't think about don't think about.

777
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, fascinating. Did you have internet? Did I ask

778
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 3: you this? Already? Was there internet there?

779
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 4: Some of the leaders could, Some people were appointed to

780
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 4: use the Internet, and a lot of those men, surprise,

781
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 4: got caught looking.

782
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 3: At Oh I'm shot.

783
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 4: One of them. I never used the computer.

784
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: You mean men look at porn.

785
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 4: But to be clear, I never mastered the art of

786
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 4: mechanical release. Just to be clear on that that one

787
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 4: I was not ever able to do. Obviously the thoughts.

788
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, because you're a human being.

789
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: I also saw something I read it about but WI

790
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: and how even that was dictated?

791
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 3: Can you tell us what that was?

792
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 4: Okay, these are the two things they always quote me

793
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 4: on in the media. Any story you see with my

794
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 4: name on it, it's gonna be like, yes, Anasta says and

795
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 4: masturbations NASA said about wiking. Sorry, like, those are the

796
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 4: two things that. Yes, there's a teaching on every aspect

797
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 4: of life, including how to wipe your butt so as

798
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 4: to use the least amount of toilet paper to be efficient,

799
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 4: to help your community save money. It was all about,

800
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 4: you know, efficiency. You're supposed to use no more than

801
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 4: four squares toilet paper, so you fold four squares into

802
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 4: one square. You wipe, you fold, you wipe again, you

803
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 4: fold again, and you've got this tiny little square when

804
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 4: you're done, that's just covered in poop.

805
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

806
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 4: That's how you're supposed to wipe you up. If you're

807
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 4: using more than four squares, you're in sin. You're going

808
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 4: against the anointing. That's what they call it. They call

809
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 4: the teachings the annoy.

810
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 3: Gonna lie, guys, I am living in sin in that case.

811
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: Okay, guys, stay tuned next week for the rest of

812
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: his story. But anyway, Meggott, Yes, would you join twelve?

813
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: You know, it seems fun to farm, but no. I

814
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: also it's too constrictive and it just sounds absolutely awful.

815
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: But I can see being drawn to the farming aspect

816
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: of it, or living off your own land or something

817
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: like that. So I get how he got there, but personally,

818
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: I don't think I could stay for more than a minute.

819
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: I don't see you doing a lot of manual labor. No,

820
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: I mean, you're right, I don't see myself doing a

821
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: lot of manual labor either, But I do, Like always

822
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: in the back of my head, I kind of am

823
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: just always going through my life thinking, well, it's cool

824
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 1: because when i live in a cabin somewhere and I'm

825
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: growing my own food and I'm off the grid, everything

826
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:48,919
Speaker 1: will be fine.

827
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 3: I'll be able to take care of myself, right.

828
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: Like that's like sort of just always lingering there in

829
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: the back of my brain somewhere, I'm like, well, I

830
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 1: do desperately want to have at least own a cabin.

831
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'll live in it, but I

832
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: do want to have a cabin, and I love the

833
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 1: idea of sustainable living. I'm like very freaked out about

834
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: climate change, I'm very freaked out about the state of

835
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: the world in general and being reliant on oil and

836
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: all kinds of things that make me just want to

837
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 1: like go off the grid. I don't think I could

838
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: do it for any length of time, but I do

839
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: see the appeal of a situation like this, especially if

840
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: it involves there's a community there, like commune living. I

841
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: actually do find very appealing in theory. I don't think

842
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 1: in practice I would be able to stay for longer

843
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 1: than a week, but in theory it's usually nice.

844
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

845
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 2: I mean I live with four people right now, like

846
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: in a house, and I would call that community living,

847
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with it, so I.

848
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: Do like, yeah, yeah, you guys. Megan's living situation is

849
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: so fun. She lives with four people, four four boys. Yeah,

850
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: and they're all creative and they all just like make

851
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: music together and like film video together and just collaborate all.

852
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: It's like, it's the dream if you're going to have roommates.

853
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,720
Speaker 1: If you have to have roommates, that's the best version

854
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: of it.

855
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 2: This makes me want to live communally for ever. But yeah,

856
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 2: it's just how strict the environment got as soon as

857
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: you got to the farm.

858
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 3: I hate it.

859
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: I hate it, well primarily the fact that they had

860
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 1: to sign their assets away is like, that's the biggest

861
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: red flag right there. Yeah, anyway, we will talk more

862
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: about it next week.

863
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 4: Be sure.

864
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 3: Well, I can't wait.

865
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: Remember to have a fabulous week and to follow your gut,

866
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: watch out for red flags, and never ever trust me

867
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 2: my