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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello, Tim Harford here. Not long ago I popped

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Speaker 1: up on Jody Avegan's podcast This Day in Esoteric Political History,

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Speaker 1: and I thought i'd share that interview with you now.

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Speaker 1: This Day in Esoteric Political History is a short show.

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Speaker 1: It drops three times a week. It's really fun to

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Speaker 1: listen to. On the show, Jody and his co hosts

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Speaker 1: Nicole Hemmer and Kelly Carter Jackson take one moment, big

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Speaker 1: or small, often forgotten, from a specific day in US

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Speaker 1: political history, and they discuss how it might inform the

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Speaker 1: world we live in today. However, I managed to convince

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Speaker 1: them to go off peace and talk about a weird

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Speaker 1: moment from UK political history. I talked about the moment

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and two when the Northeastern English town

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Speaker 1: of Hartlepool was gearing up for a mayoral election and

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Speaker 1: they ended up voting in the local football clubs monkey

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Speaker 1: mascot to run their government. So I discuss how Hangus

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Speaker 1: the Monkey got elected and what happened to the man

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Speaker 1: inside the suit, Stuart Drummond when he got his hands

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Speaker 1: on the levers of power. Here's the episode. I think

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Speaker 1: you'll like it, and if you do, you can find

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Speaker 1: more episodes. Of this day in Esoteric Political History where

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to this day

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Speaker 1: in Esoteric political History from Radiotopia. My name is Jody Abragant.

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Speaker 1: This day, April twenty eighth, two thousand and two, in

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Speaker 1: the northeastern English town of Hartlepool, population about one hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand or so, a man by the name of Stuart

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Speaker 1: Drummond was about to be elected mayor. The election would

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Speaker 1: happen on May fourth, and that's when Drummond will become mayor.

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Speaker 1: Some notable things about Stuart Drummond. He was only twenty eighth,

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Speaker 1: pretty young. He had a degree in business and Languages

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Speaker 1: from the University of Salford. He'd worked at a call

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Speaker 1: center and on a cruise ship. All right, let me

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Speaker 1: to the chase. Here, I'm burning the lead. A little

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Speaker 1: bit about Stuart Drummond. Stuart Drummond was a monkey, or

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Speaker 1: at least he was a monkey mascot. He was the

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Speaker 1: guy in the costume at the local football club games.

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Speaker 1: The team's mascot was a monkey for reasons we'll get into.

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Speaker 1: And Stuart was inside that costume firing up the crowd.

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Speaker 1: And that was basically his only claim to fame. He

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Speaker 1: ran as a joke and he won as a joke,

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Speaker 1: and funnily enough, he actually became a pretty good mayor.

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Speaker 1: And there are some lessons in there, I would say

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Speaker 1: about democracy and political credentialism and the power of free

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Speaker 1: bananas as your platform. So let's talk about all of

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Speaker 1: this The Monkey Mayor of Hartlepool with our very special

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Speaker 1: guest back on the show, Tim Harford, undercover economist, host

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Speaker 1: of the wonderful show from Pushkin Cautionary Tales, and he

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Speaker 1: tells the story of the Monkey Mayor in the latest season. Tim,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show and congrats in the new season.

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Speaker 1: Thank you great to be back. What a wonderful introduction

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Speaker 1: to Stuart Drummond and the town that to the monkey

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Speaker 1: for a mayor. I love it. Yeah, no one says

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Speaker 1: his name, you know, they always say the monkey, so

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Speaker 1: I figured give Stewart. I also want to say, we'll

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Speaker 1: get into this story, but I also want to give

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Speaker 1: you kudos. Is this the first episode of Cashning Tails

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Speaker 1: in which you sing? I caught that and I appreciate

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Speaker 1: that well supposed. No, I actually sing a traditional folk

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Speaker 1: song from the northeast of England. I'm the accent is

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Speaker 1: not good, but I think I'm in tune, so that's something.

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Speaker 1: It's wonderful U And of course with us as always

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Speaker 1: are Nicole Haemer for Columbia and Kelly Carter Jackson, a

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Speaker 1: Wellesley host of opademics. Hello there, Hello, Jody, Hey there.

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Speaker 1: So Tim, you're gonna tell us the story of Stuart.

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Speaker 1: We're going to bring a little bit of other interesting

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Speaker 1: moments of joke candidates, animal candidates, and we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: some of the bigger lessons here. But I suppose we

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Speaker 1: should also lay out why is the monkey particularly important

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Speaker 1: in this town in northeast England of Hartletpool. So let

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Speaker 1: me take you back to the Napoleonic War, So we're

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Speaker 1: going back more than two hundred years. The story is

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Speaker 1: that while was at war with France on the northeast

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Speaker 1: coast of England, near the town of Hartlepool, a French

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Speaker 1: ship was wrecked and the sole survivor of the shipwreck

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Speaker 1: was a very small, hairy gentleman, in other words, a monkey,

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Speaker 1: And that the local folk of Hartlepool presumed, since they

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Speaker 1: had never seen a Frenchman, that this this is might

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Speaker 1: be what a Frenchman looked like, and they so they

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Speaker 1: quizzed the monkey, and the monkey just didn't respond in

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Speaker 1: any in any language they could understand, which makes sense

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Speaker 1: because none of them spoke French. And so in the

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Speaker 1: end they presumed, since the monkey was unable to defend

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Speaker 1: himself in English, they presumed the monkey was a French

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Speaker 1: spy and hung the monkey. That's the story, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the end of the episode. There no reason it's going

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Speaker 1: to follow up questions far too good to check. So

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Speaker 1: the this has just become a local tradition. So the

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Speaker 1: local towns near Hartlepool, they all tease the heart Pudlians

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Speaker 1: Hartlet Publians is the word for people from Hartlepool. They

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Speaker 1: all tease the Hartler Publians for being so dumb they

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Speaker 1: hung a monkey thinking he was a French spy. And

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Speaker 1: the Heartlet Publians have kind of embraced this, so they're

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like they're proud that maybe their

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Speaker 1: ancestors hung a monkey or maybe they didn't. Mean nobody

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Speaker 1: really knows. It's that they can get the joke. So

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Speaker 1: they've been on the joke. They're able to laugh at themselves.

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Speaker 1: There's a big, generous hearted people. That's the way the

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Speaker 1: hartle Pulians think about it. And so the monkey is

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Speaker 1: a tradition in the town of Hartlepool, and the local

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Speaker 1: soccer team has a mascot, of course, and of course

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Speaker 1: the mascot is a monkey, and the monkey is actually

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Speaker 1: called Hangus, so nor apostrophe Angus Hangers, you get it.

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Speaker 1: It's very funny. So yeah, so the monkeys the monkey

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Speaker 1: is big in Hartlepool, and hang Us the monkey, the

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Speaker 1: local soccer mascot, is a big character. So that sets

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Speaker 1: us up for the election of two thousand and two. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think that there's like another big step that

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Speaker 1: we have to explain, which is how Hangers went from

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Speaker 1: being a soccer mascot to becoming a candidate for office.

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Speaker 1: Because it wasn't it wasn't that this man ran under

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Speaker 1: his own name and just happened to be a mascot.

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Speaker 1: He ran as Hangers. That was the name on the ballot, right, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he ran as Hanger as the monkey. So mayors were

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Speaker 1: not really a thing in many English towns. There was

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Speaker 1: a reform introduced at the beginning of the twenty first century.

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Speaker 1: We're going to have more local democracy. That was the idea.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people didn't entirely take it seriously with

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Speaker 1: consequences that are going to become apparent. So Harletpool was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be electing a mayor. And Harletpool is one

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Speaker 1: of these, you know, it's like in the in the US,

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Speaker 1: you've got the you've got the deep blue States, you've

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Speaker 1: got the deep red States. Harletpool's a Labor party territory,

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Speaker 1: the left of center party. They always have a Labor

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Speaker 1: member of parliament. They always vote Labor, there's no doubt

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Speaker 1: about this. And against this backdrop, Stuart Drummond, the guy

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Speaker 1: and the monkey costume, goes to the chairman of the

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Speaker 1: football club and says, hey, why don't I run. It'll

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Speaker 1: raise the profile of the club. We can maybe raise

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Speaker 1: some money for charity. It'll be fun. He doesn't think

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Speaker 1: anyone's going to vote for him. Nobody thinks anyone's going

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Speaker 1: to vote for him. The bookies are offering odds of

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Speaker 1: I don't know, one hundred to one, I forget exactly,

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Speaker 1: but no, it was it four hundred one, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then it tumbles the four to one over the course

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Speaker 1: of election there, which is nice. Yeah. So as people

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Speaker 1: start to realize maybe they will actually vote for the monkey,

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Speaker 1: and well, you can see where this is going. They

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Speaker 1: vote for the monkey. So this is a guy who

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Speaker 1: he is literally a joke candidate and the joke is

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Speaker 1: on him. And he never thought he be elected, he

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Speaker 1: never wanted to be elected, and suddenly he was elected.

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Speaker 1: And so where do we go from there? So let's

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Speaker 1: stay in that moment because there's also a whole story

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Speaker 1: about the fact that he ends up I'll spoil it,

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Speaker 1: but you know, being a pretty good mayor, which is

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Speaker 1: an interesting thing we'll talk about. But you know, in

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Speaker 1: terms of kind of what this teaches us about democracy

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Speaker 1: and campaigns and so forth, I don't know, Kelly, do

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Speaker 1: you feel like this is a story of, well, it's

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Speaker 1: nice that we don't take politics too seriously or a

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Speaker 1: story of, oh no, this is what happens when we

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Speaker 1: don't take politics. I think it's a little bit of both.

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Speaker 1: I think that people wanted an opportunity to have some

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Speaker 1: fun because they did not think it would happen. But

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Speaker 1: what happens when everyone thinks something won't happen, it kind

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Speaker 1: of happens. And that's exactly you know, everyone went in

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Speaker 1: the box and sort of checked checked for this Hagas

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Speaker 1: and Hangus and it's like, you know, now you have

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Speaker 1: to sort of deal with the ramifications of it. But

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Speaker 1: in hindsight, you know, they do raise a lot of money,

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Speaker 1: it does raise a lot of attention, and Drummond turns

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Speaker 1: out to be not so bad. I think it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting question as to whether people voted and they never

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Speaker 1: thought it would actually result in the monkey guy being elected,

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Speaker 1: or whether they didn't care whether he was elected or

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Speaker 1: not because they didn't think the mayoral office was important.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't. It was the first time there

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Speaker 1: had been a mayoral election in the modern era, so

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Speaker 1: it's not clear whether whether it mattered, whether anybody thought

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Speaker 1: it mattered. So this is partly a story, I think

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Speaker 1: of of just people feeling disaffected with politics, like it

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Speaker 1: doesn't doesn't make any difference, We might as well vote

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Speaker 1: for the monkey who cares well to that end, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think one interesting data point here is that the

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Speaker 1: result of this election was very close. But you know,

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Speaker 1: he wins five thousand, six hundred and ninety six to

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Speaker 1: five one hundred and seventy four, and you know, a

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Speaker 1: town of one hundred thousand or so, So look at

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Speaker 1: the turnout, right, And so I think that that's part

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Speaker 1: of the lesson here is when you have such tiny turnout,

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Speaker 1: when politics is you know, treated as a sideshow or whatever,

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Speaker 1: people don't feel invested, then it just creates a vacuum

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Speaker 1: of sorts and this kind of thing can happen. And

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Speaker 1: it's worth pointing out that this wasn't just an honorary

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Speaker 1: position like this was somebody who was going to control

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Speaker 1: a staff of three thousand people of a budget of

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Speaker 1: like one hundred million dollars. This was position of leadership

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Speaker 1: which I would expect. He was a little goggle eyed

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Speaker 1: about whenever he learned that he was. He was, I mean,

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Speaker 1: in fairness to Stewart. When he realized what he'd accidentally done,

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Speaker 1: he could have said, actually I would I now withdraw.

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Speaker 1: He could have refused to take office, but he said, well, look,

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Speaker 1: I mean I've got to take responsibility for the consequences

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Speaker 1: of my own actions. And he's a young guy, but

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Speaker 1: he had had a degree in business, so he said, I, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess I'd better go to some evening classes take

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Speaker 1: some training. So he said, it was like taking six

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Speaker 1: master's degrees in six months. He aimed up he took

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Speaker 1: it seriously, and then when the lovely little touches, like

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Speaker 1: one of his pledges was free bananas for every child

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Speaker 1: at school, which is like, it's a joke because he's

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Speaker 1: a monkey, so free bananas. But then when you get selected,

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Speaker 1: he's like, well, actually, the kids should have fruit. That's

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Speaker 1: good for them. So he manages to get some funding

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Speaker 1: together and he fulfills that pledge, or at least each

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Speaker 1: child gets a piece of fruit, might not be a banana,

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Speaker 1: but gets a piece of fruit every day. So you know,

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Speaker 1: even the jokes turn into actually, that's a that's a

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Speaker 1: perfectly respectable policy. Yeah. I think it's two gentlemen's credit though,

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Speaker 1: that he actually takes it seriously and that he does

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Speaker 1: sort of say, okay, what do I need to do?

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Speaker 1: What do I need to learn? Because you can imagine

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Speaker 1: this could have with the wrong person or with a

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Speaker 1: different kind of character, could have gone in completely different

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Speaker 1: direction and could have abused their power, authority, or like,

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Speaker 1: you know, who knows what the outcome could have been.

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Speaker 1: But I appreciate the fact that he actually was like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, let's make the most of this. I

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Speaker 1: love that there's a little twist in the story as

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Speaker 1: well that the local member of Parliament is the equivalent

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Speaker 1: of a member of Congress. A local member of Parliament

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Speaker 1: in Hartlepool as a gentleman called Peter Mandelson, and Peter

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Speaker 1: Mandelson was a huge player in the Labor Party at

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Speaker 1: the time and very much representative of this idea that

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Speaker 1: the Labor Party, traditionally the party of the workers, like

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Speaker 1: the Democrats in the US, had become too metropolitan, too elitist.

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Speaker 1: Mandelson was from London. He's very obeying, he's very sophisticated,

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Speaker 1: very posh accent. And there's a there's a story about

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Speaker 1: Mandelsson which is probably about as true as the original

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Speaker 1: story of Hanging the Monkey that when he was taken

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Speaker 1: to a traditional Hartletpool fish and chip shop and served

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Speaker 1: mushy peas, and mushy peas is like mushy pieces is

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Speaker 1: a difficult thing to describe. To imagine a cross between

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Speaker 1: mash potatoes and peas and pure malt vinegar, that's the

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Speaker 1: best description I can. It's a really kind of sharp sour.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to describe. It's a very it's very traditional,

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Speaker 1: it's very distinctive of the area. Well, when when Mandelson

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Speaker 1: saw it he assumed it was guacamole, and and guacamole

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Speaker 1: was completely unknown in the UK at the time. That

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Speaker 1: was a super kind of, you know, fancy Mexican thing

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Speaker 1: that nobody knew about. So so with this this story

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Speaker 1: that he doesn't even know what mush ups are, he

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Speaker 1: thinks he thinks it's something that you should be getting

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Speaker 1: in a Mexican restaurant. But Mandelsson when he then meets

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Speaker 1: Stuart Drummond and he Mandelson is this this representative of

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Speaker 1: traditional power in the Labor Party and Drummond gets himself

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Speaker 1: elected instead of the Labor candidate for mayor. Mandelson comes

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Speaker 1: up to him and says, you've rid a laughing stock

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Speaker 1: of the town. How will any businesses invest in us

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Speaker 1: now that the whole world is laughing at us, just

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Speaker 1: made a joke out of us, And he's really He

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Speaker 1: rips into him, then asks him a few questions and

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Speaker 1: then he walks straight over to the TV cameras to

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Speaker 1: give an interview, and when the cameras are on, he's like,

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Speaker 1: oh no, not at aol. Stuart's a wonderful boy. He's

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Speaker 1: a very very intelligent young man. He speaks three languages.

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Speaker 1: He's trained in business. He really has the best interest

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Speaker 1: of the community at heart. It will be a terrific mayor.

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Speaker 1: And Stuart is watching this and goes, oh, okay, I

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Speaker 1: mean politics, now, this is how politics works. I just

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Speaker 1: love that kind of vignette of how it all sort

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Speaker 1: of goes behind the scenes. Right, Okay, let's take a

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Speaker 1: quick break and we will be right back. All right,

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Speaker 1: we're back with Tim Harford on this day in esoteric

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Speaker 1: political history. But also, you know, I think two thousand

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Speaker 1: and two it happens in this country as well. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're starting to see a moment where a laborer is

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Speaker 1: somehow starts to get painted as not the party of

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Speaker 1: the working class and more out of touch elites, you know.

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Speaker 1: And if it's not guacamole in the UK, here, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's the charge of lattes and hummus or whatever and

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Speaker 1: arugula you know, for for for liberal out of touch elites. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so I think there's that interesting dynamic, and that's

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Speaker 1: obviously that sort of populous strain continues to this day

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Speaker 1: in both countries. Um. The other part of this I

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Speaker 1: think is interesting and sort of marks it in a

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Speaker 1: particular moment, is I mean, no surprise, it's a joke campaign.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Drummond doesn't really campaign, he doesn't really do

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Speaker 1: like events, you know. I mean he's you know, he's

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Speaker 1: obviously a mascot and he's trying to raise a little awareness.

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Speaker 1: But but the media environment I think is important too.

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Speaker 1: That like that, you know, it's a it's a changing

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Speaker 1: media environment and one in which, because of just sort

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Speaker 1: of a changing media environment, a candidate can kind of

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Speaker 1: get their own earned press as opposed to having to

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Speaker 1: do the sort of traditional gate keeping avenues of campaigning.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm sure that's part of this story as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not the outrageousness of it, the fact that it

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Speaker 1: doesn't that, I mean, one is obviously there are many,

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Speaker 1: many differences. But I'm sort of reminded of you when

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump's to be president and everyone's like, it's crazy,

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Speaker 1: this is the reality TV star guy is going to

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Speaker 1: be president. Of course he's not going to be president.

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Speaker 1: It's ridiculous. But the sheer fact of it being absurd

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Speaker 1: means that it's a it's a huge news story. And

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Speaker 1: then suddenly people are taking him seriously as a candidate

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Speaker 1: because he's cut through all the noise. And obviously this

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Speaker 1: is a much smaller scale than Hartlepool and a very

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Speaker 1: different kind of candidate, but it's the same phenomenon, Like,

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Speaker 1: of course people are going to run stories about the

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Speaker 1: guy in the monkey suit running to be mayor. So

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Speaker 1: let's talk a bit about sort of joke candidates. And

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Speaker 1: we are to a list of animal candidates as well.

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Speaker 1: But do you know, do you know the name Susannah Salter?

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Speaker 1: Is that name ring a Belle? No. This is why

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Speaker 1: I come on this podcast, Jody, because I intend to

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Speaker 1: acquire an education in politics. Tell me about Susanna's Salter

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Speaker 1: was elected mayor of our Goal, Kansas in eighteen eighty seven,

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Speaker 1: the first woman elected mayor in the United States, and

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Speaker 1: her election was a joke. The men of the town

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Speaker 1: put her on the ballot to prove a point that

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Speaker 1: a woman could never get elected mayor of their town,

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Speaker 1: and lo and behold, she was elected mayor of the

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Speaker 1: town and the first woman mayor in the United States. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, these stunt candidacies sometimes lead to genuine you

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Speaker 1: knows jokes on you and she and she much liked Stuart,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of grew into the role. And that's

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Speaker 1: Another thing you sort of outline in your piece is

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Speaker 1: that like, sometimes the traditional politicians aren't the ones who

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Speaker 1: shoot are qualified, and sometimes, you know, just a person

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Speaker 1: seemingly randomly or jokily placed on the ballot can rise

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Speaker 1: to the occasion and they may be just as qualified

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Speaker 1: as as anyone else to run a town. I love that,

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Speaker 1: and it speaks to a very populist sentiment what you're saying, Jody, right.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's that famous line where William F. Buckley

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Speaker 1: Junior in the nineteen sixties says he the city be

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Speaker 1: run by the first one of the first two thousand

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Speaker 1: names in the Boston phone Book than by a professional politician.

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Speaker 1: And that idea that you know, this is a job

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Speaker 1: that anyone can do, and in fact, professional politicians are

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Speaker 1: the least qualified to do it is a strong sentiment

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Speaker 1: in a lot of different places. It's crazy to me, though,

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Speaker 1: like just thinking about the idea of not just anyone running,

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Speaker 1: but an animal running for office is something that blows

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Speaker 1: my mind. And so doing like this deep dive, I

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Speaker 1: found that there is a town called rabbit Hash, Kentucky

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Speaker 1: that has only ever had dogs for mayors, not rabbits,

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Speaker 1: not rabbits, the rabbits of the dogs are questions, so

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Speaker 1: many questions. I mean, it happens more than you would

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Speaker 1: It happens more than you would think in the US

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Speaker 1: that animals, whether it's it's dogs or cats, occasionally goats

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Speaker 1: get voted in as mayor because the mayor's office is

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Speaker 1: considered so you know, well, exactly like the people of Hartlepool,

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Speaker 1: right like it was considered symbolic or so warmless ceremonial

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Speaker 1: that you end up, you know, okay, fine, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have a mule who is the governor in Milton, Washington,

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Speaker 1: or I don't know, you have a cat who's the

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Speaker 1: mayor of a main Michigan. Masco the dog, a black

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Speaker 1: labrador waller makes elected to the mayor of Saul, California.

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Speaker 1: So of course the problem is then if if it

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Speaker 1: turns out that the office of the mayor isn't quite

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Speaker 1: as symbolic as people think, and it does actually matter,

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Speaker 1: then you have a problem. I'm recalling all the way

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Speaker 1: back Caligula, the Roman emperor, appointed his horse as a consul,

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Speaker 1: if I recall correctly, and that is that's partly this

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Speaker 1: idea that Caligula was mad but I think also the

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Speaker 1: fact that the consoles had some restraining power over the emperor.

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Speaker 1: If you appoint a horse and the horse is not

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Speaker 1: going to object to anything that you do, so you're

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Speaker 1: basically doing an end run around attempts at a balance

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Speaker 1: of power or separations of separation of power. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I do wonder whether whether sometimes this comes

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Speaker 1: back to white people where they think that the office

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Speaker 1: is a joke, and it says it's not a joke

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Speaker 1: at all. And and if you, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: elect a dog or a horse or whatever, then you

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Speaker 1: will suffer the consequences. Yeah, particularly if they're not well trained,

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Speaker 1: they'll abite you. That's true. True. The name of that

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Speaker 1: horse in catatus, which means good knowledge or gallop or swift, um,

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Speaker 1: good googly. I will say, you know, though, a lot

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Speaker 1: of these towns in the US, in particular, that elect animals. Um.

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Speaker 1: They do it when the mayor role is a ceremonial place.

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Speaker 1: And I would imagine that a lot of these towns

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Speaker 1: there's what's a lot of towns have it, which is

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Speaker 1: a city manager. And actually I think that's kind of

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Speaker 1: like part of this story as well, just sort of

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Speaker 1: what do we think of it. You were just saying

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Speaker 1: to him, you know, what do we think of the

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Speaker 1: role of mayor? And part of me almost thinks like

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Speaker 1: we're either at one extreme, which is like politics is

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Speaker 1: deadly serious and you need these, you know, career politicians

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Speaker 1: who who are good on TV and so forth to

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Speaker 1: do it, or it's all the way at the other end,

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Speaker 1: where this is a joke, you know. And to me,

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Speaker 1: the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, which is like,

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Speaker 1: this is a managerial job. And I think that Stuart

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Speaker 1: shows us that, you know, that he grows into the role,

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Speaker 1: he treats, takes it seriously, takes it as seriously as

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Speaker 1: he probably took his job at the call center or

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Speaker 1: on the cruise ship, and he just kind of goes

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Speaker 1: to work each day. And I do think like we've

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Speaker 1: lost the little sense of politics as a profession in

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Speaker 1: that sense. I think it's a really important idea and

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Speaker 1: somebody needs to be competent somewhere, right, unless we think

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Speaker 1: that all of politics is a joke, which it really isn't.

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Speaker 1: And I think we get into a very nasty situation

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Speaker 1: where it's not the same as electing animals. When you

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Speaker 1: when you elect a candidate because I'm a Republican and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to vote for Republicans, doesn't matter what. Or

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Speaker 1: I'm a Democrat, I'm going to vote for Democrats. When

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Speaker 1: when parties are so polarized, the quality of the candidates

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Speaker 1: potentially starts to really suffer. There's a classic paper in economics.

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Speaker 1: I'm just drawing a blank on the person who wrote it.

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Speaker 1: He want a Nobel prize, but that basically proves that.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's quite intuitive that the more polarized

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Speaker 1: you are, the easier it is to get away with

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Speaker 1: incompetence or corruption because it's you know, it's my party

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Speaker 1: right or wrong, and that's a bad situation to be

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Speaker 1: in m You know, it's interesting too. I teach an

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Speaker 1: American history survey course, and we talk about the rise

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Speaker 1: of black elected officials in like the sixties and the seventies.

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Speaker 1: When you get your first big black mayors like your

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Speaker 1: David Dinkins or your Harold Washington's or black y of

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Speaker 1: like these smaller towns, and oftentimes they're coming into office

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Speaker 1: when the cities are defunct or bankrupt or you know,

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Speaker 1: really in dire straits. And then there's this idea that's like, well,

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Speaker 1: they can't get any worse. So okay, I liked the blackmail,

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Speaker 1: you know, like that has sort of been like the

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Speaker 1: the some similar sentiments could have been made about Barack

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Speaker 1: Obama in there coming in two thousand and eight. But

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Speaker 1: like this idea of if things feel really bad or

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Speaker 1: if things are really bad, what do we lose by

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Speaker 1: electing someone who may feel like an outlier or risky?

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Speaker 1: Maybe not much? And is that then, so I can

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00:23:51,890 --> 00:23:53,810
Speaker 1: think of that going two ways. Is on the one hand,

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00:23:53,930 --> 00:23:58,210
Speaker 1: you and I've heard similar comments made about female CEOs.

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00:23:58,810 --> 00:24:00,250
Speaker 1: The woman always has to come in to clean up

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00:24:00,290 --> 00:24:05,450
Speaker 1: the mess. So on the one hand, these people from

429
00:24:06,050 --> 00:24:08,890
Speaker 1: disadvantaged groups who previously haven't had much access to power,

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00:24:09,290 --> 00:24:12,130
Speaker 1: they get put in office just at the moment when

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00:24:12,130 --> 00:24:15,730
Speaker 1: things are terrible. Does that mean that they end up

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Speaker 1: tarnished by the fact that things are so bad? Or

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00:24:18,850 --> 00:24:21,450
Speaker 1: is if there's regression to the mean, then maybe they

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00:24:21,530 --> 00:24:23,330
Speaker 1: just they just get the credit for the upswing. I

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00:24:23,370 --> 00:24:25,330
Speaker 1: don't I don't know how that works out. I'm sure

436
00:24:25,410 --> 00:24:28,970
Speaker 1: it's a mixed bag. Yeah, yeah, for sure, because it's

437
00:24:29,010 --> 00:24:32,690
Speaker 1: it's a matter of judging like success or failure on

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00:24:32,810 --> 00:24:35,570
Speaker 1: how on how they succeed or fail is not necessarily

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00:24:35,610 --> 00:24:38,850
Speaker 1: based on an even playing field, right, A couple of

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00:24:38,850 --> 00:24:40,690
Speaker 1: they're just tidbits worth worth thinking about. I mean, I

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00:24:40,730 --> 00:24:44,050
Speaker 1: do think this question of a joke candidate, and I

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00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:46,970
Speaker 1: you know, I just not to get to the big

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00:24:47,050 --> 00:24:50,250
Speaker 1: thing here, but you know, I do think like jokiness

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00:24:50,330 --> 00:24:52,490
Speaker 1: and politics right now, and the way that certain people

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00:24:52,650 --> 00:24:55,250
Speaker 1: kind of like play with oh, this is a joke.

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00:24:55,370 --> 00:24:57,330
Speaker 1: This is a joke, until then all of a sudden

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00:24:57,330 --> 00:24:59,330
Speaker 1: they decided it's deadly serious. You know, I think that

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00:24:59,450 --> 00:25:01,730
Speaker 1: that's it strikes me as one of the defining features

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00:25:01,730 --> 00:25:05,130
Speaker 1: in modern politics is that you know, people just like

450
00:25:06,130 --> 00:25:09,410
Speaker 1: say wild stuff on TV or they tweet wild stuff,

451
00:25:09,410 --> 00:25:11,170
Speaker 1: and then they can kind of backtrack and be like, oh, no,

452
00:25:11,250 --> 00:25:12,610
Speaker 1: it was just a joke. It was just a joke.

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00:25:12,690 --> 00:25:16,730
Speaker 1: And I just think like the way that jokiness has

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00:25:16,810 --> 00:25:19,290
Speaker 1: sort of infused its way through politics and it's very

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00:25:19,330 --> 00:25:21,890
Speaker 1: slippery and it's weaponized and so forth is really, um

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00:25:22,170 --> 00:25:23,690
Speaker 1: it's really kind of one of the defining features them

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00:25:23,730 --> 00:25:25,370
Speaker 1: out on politics. And you see those roots a little

458
00:25:25,370 --> 00:25:27,370
Speaker 1: bit in here as well, just even in you know,

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00:25:27,970 --> 00:25:29,810
Speaker 1: even in Star's decision to just say, like, oh, this

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00:25:29,930 --> 00:25:31,610
Speaker 1: is a place where I can be a little joking.

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00:25:32,050 --> 00:25:34,370
Speaker 1: One of the most effective politicians in the world going

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00:25:34,410 --> 00:25:38,450
Speaker 1: now is a professional comedian. Right, But then that's an

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00:25:38,450 --> 00:25:40,290
Speaker 1: example I think of growing and you know, people think

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00:25:40,330 --> 00:25:41,650
Speaker 1: he grew into the role. I mean, the mayor of

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00:25:41,690 --> 00:25:44,090
Speaker 1: Reikovic was a comedian as well who kind of decided

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00:25:44,090 --> 00:25:46,050
Speaker 1: to run as a joke and then got elected and

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00:25:46,250 --> 00:25:48,490
Speaker 1: has grown into the role and been fairly competent. So yeah,

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00:25:49,450 --> 00:25:54,050
Speaker 1: you know, sure, right exactly, Yeah, yeah, that's true. There

469
00:25:54,130 --> 00:25:56,930
Speaker 1: are also always quote unquote joke candidates in the US,

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00:25:56,970 --> 00:25:58,770
Speaker 1: and so I think it's worth just giving a shout

471
00:25:58,810 --> 00:26:02,210
Speaker 1: out to people like Vermin Supreme, you know, for Vermin

472
00:26:02,250 --> 00:26:06,130
Speaker 1: Supreme always floating around in the like New Hampshire primaries

473
00:26:06,250 --> 00:26:09,050
Speaker 1: as a Libertarian Democrat candidate where's like a big boot

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00:26:09,170 --> 00:26:11,170
Speaker 1: on his head, has a huge beard and a wizard

475
00:26:11,330 --> 00:26:15,610
Speaker 1: route but he's every is it every election? Um? These

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00:26:15,730 --> 00:26:18,770
Speaker 1: nuts ran in twenty twenties, you remember, got a fair

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00:26:18,930 --> 00:26:23,130
Speaker 1: number of writing votes. Um. And then to wrap it

478
00:26:23,210 --> 00:26:24,970
Speaker 1: all up and bring it all around back to the monkey.

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00:26:25,050 --> 00:26:28,450
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember this was another head

480
00:26:28,450 --> 00:26:32,490
Speaker 1: spinning moment in twenty sixteen, but Harambe the monkey who

481
00:26:32,650 --> 00:26:36,490
Speaker 1: was a very meme, who's very like a million writing

482
00:26:36,570 --> 00:26:40,730
Speaker 1: votes in twenty sixteen, so you know, thirty, there you go.

483
00:26:40,850 --> 00:26:44,530
Speaker 1: There you have your monkey, a monkey callback we're in trouble.

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00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:49,450
Speaker 1: It's not great. I think that might be well, yeah,

485
00:26:50,130 --> 00:26:54,330
Speaker 1: I want to just take it to a more enlightening

486
00:26:54,570 --> 00:26:59,290
Speaker 1: place or more encouraging place. Stewart enjoyed being mayor. Yeah,

487
00:26:59,650 --> 00:27:02,090
Speaker 1: and he ran again the end of his first term.

488
00:27:02,170 --> 00:27:04,850
Speaker 1: He ran again, and he ran not as hung as

489
00:27:04,930 --> 00:27:07,570
Speaker 1: the monkey. He ran as Stuart Drummond, like the guy

490
00:27:07,650 --> 00:27:10,490
Speaker 1: you accidentally elected mayor. He said, I'm serious this time,

491
00:27:11,130 --> 00:27:12,970
Speaker 1: would you elect me again? And he won with a

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00:27:13,010 --> 00:27:16,010
Speaker 1: bigger majority, and then he ran for a third term

493
00:27:16,010 --> 00:27:19,570
Speaker 1: and he won again. So he started as a joke,

494
00:27:19,610 --> 00:27:22,530
Speaker 1: but the people of Hartlepool obviously thought, actually, this guy's good,

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00:27:22,810 --> 00:27:25,170
Speaker 1: we'll have him again. And as you point out in

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00:27:25,210 --> 00:27:26,810
Speaker 1: your piece, which I think people, you know, people should

497
00:27:26,810 --> 00:27:28,290
Speaker 1: go listen because there's a lot more there. But there's

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00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:32,330
Speaker 1: there's something there about promotion and management and just sort

499
00:27:32,370 --> 00:27:34,690
Speaker 1: of saying like if you give people an opportunity, they

500
00:27:34,770 --> 00:27:36,850
Speaker 1: can they can grow into it. Yeah, there's a business

501
00:27:36,890 --> 00:27:40,250
Speaker 1: school literature which I which I discuss. Yeah, yeah, it's

502
00:27:40,250 --> 00:27:42,850
Speaker 1: a really really great episode. And of course to hear

503
00:27:43,130 --> 00:27:46,530
Speaker 1: more stories like that, you can go check out Cautionary

504
00:27:46,610 --> 00:27:50,530
Speaker 1: Tales wherever you get your podcasts, one of our favorite shows.

505
00:27:50,970 --> 00:27:53,210
Speaker 1: And Tim, thank you so much for doing this. This

506
00:27:53,370 --> 00:27:56,010
Speaker 1: was really really fun and congratulations on the new season.

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00:27:56,090 --> 00:27:58,410
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Pleasure, Nicole Hammer, thanks do you,

508
00:27:58,730 --> 00:28:03,610
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jennie Kelly, Carter Jackson, thanks to you, my pleasure. Um,

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00:28:03,970 --> 00:28:05,410
Speaker 1: you know, I only stood in the election for a

510
00:28:05,450 --> 00:28:07,330
Speaker 1: bit of for and a bit of a joke, and

511
00:28:07,610 --> 00:28:10,090
Speaker 1: you know, I've got a bit of publicity, and I thought,

512
00:28:10,130 --> 00:28:11,930
Speaker 1: well I might as well see it through. I never

513
00:28:11,970 --> 00:28:15,090
Speaker 1: studden an election before, and lo and Behold ended up winning,

514
00:28:15,170 --> 00:28:17,610
Speaker 1: but then went on to win two more terms. I

515
00:28:17,690 --> 00:28:19,690
Speaker 1: guess you can. You can effect what's happening locally a

516
00:28:19,770 --> 00:28:21,970
Speaker 1: lot more as an elected mayor because you're you're leader

517
00:28:21,970 --> 00:28:25,210
Speaker 1: of the council effectively, and you're the budget holder. You're

518
00:28:25,250 --> 00:28:27,170
Speaker 1: the one with the responsibility to spend the money, and

519
00:28:27,250 --> 00:28:28,850
Speaker 1: you're directly accountable for the public