1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and it is a Saturday, so it's 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: time for another episode from the vault. This is going 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: to be part one of our series on oil and 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: Troubled Water. This originally published on July twentieth, twenty twenty three. 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: It's a part one of two and it gets into 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: the fascinating interactions between oil and water and how it's 8 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: factored into practices as diverse as divination, rituals and attempts 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: to calm the sea with oil. So, without further ado, 10 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 1: let's jump right in. 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,200 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: is Robert. 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 3: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: We have a fun journey to tell take you on 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: in the next couple of episodes, probably going to be 17 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: a two parter, but who knows. We never know. We 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: don't know what the future is going to bring. But 19 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: this is one that on the surface of things, you 20 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: might think, oh, well, oil and water, how interesting could 21 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: that get? But it gets pretty interesting because you know, 22 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: we're going to get into divination, We're going to get 23 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: into the idea of pouring storm oil into the sea 24 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: to calm turbulent waters. There's a lot to talk about here, 25 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: but at the very base level, oil and water two 26 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: things that famously don't mix. You've probably observed varying levels 27 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: of the interaction before. Perhaps you've just seen like a 28 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: film of oil on the surface of a puddle, or 29 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: you've observed the separation of cooking oil combined with another 30 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: liquid in a mixing bowl. It instantly catches the eye. 31 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say it necessarily always captures the 32 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: human imagination, but there is something about it that you 33 00:01:59,360 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: can't help but know. 34 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 3: Did you ever have one of those toys when you 35 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 3: were a kid where there is I actually don't know 36 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 3: what liquids they use in these, but presumably it's water 37 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 3: and then some kind of lipid based colored liquid, maybe 38 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 3: like red or blue, that bubbles through the water and 39 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 3: maybe spins a little pin wheel or something. 40 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I know what you're talking about. I 41 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: do remember these. They're really fun for a brief period 42 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: of time, and then they go into the junk drawer. 43 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 3: Well, maybe I'm just easily amused. I remember turning mine 44 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 3: over and over a lot. 45 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean it's memorable. I'm not saying it's forgotten. 46 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: That it certainly ends up in the toy chest. 47 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 3: I bet that one's really fun when it breaks. That'd 48 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 3: be a great origin story for like a long dormant 49 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 3: virus or something, the dangerous microorganism encased within the item 50 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 3: of power. 51 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: What strange oil did they end up using. Yeah, well 52 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: it's not just children, It's not just the inner child 53 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: as well. Humans have interactions of oil and water intriguing 54 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: since ancient times. And yeah, indeed it does trace back 55 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: into the realm of ancient magic and divination. You know, 56 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: various tales and we'll touch on some of these of 57 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: like ancient kings and so forth, seeking out the word 58 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: and the wisdom of diviners who use various methods to 59 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: sort of reach into the murky future and make sense 60 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: of the strange shapes there. Now, divination is, of course 61 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: the attempt to seek guidance concerning the future and decisions 62 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: that impact future events. As we've discussed in the show before. 63 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: You can certainly think of it as a as the 64 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: right of supernatural guidance, which it is, but especially in 65 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: the ancient context too, we might think of it as 66 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: well as a means of sort of generating a randomized 67 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: direction that is weighted by belief for superstition. You know, 68 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: if presented with two choices, all things being equal, you know, 69 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: flip a coin, but not a trivial coin, not a 70 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: completely trivial coin, because this coin is weighted supernatural belief. 71 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: But then also you keep it from being just you know, 72 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: completely random, because it also entails an art of interpretation. 73 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: It's not just a coin anyone can flip and anyone 74 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: can read. You need a specialist who's going to read 75 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: the coin, read whatever it is you're reading, and perhaps 76 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: too you know, read the client, read the patron and 77 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: or the you know, the larger events going on and 78 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: so so, yeah, there's a there's an art to divination 79 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: as well. 80 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 3: So it's often interesting when you think about a lot 81 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 3: of the stories of what the interpreter does. I mean, 82 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 3: there are some cases where they get real specific about things, 83 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 3: but most of the time it seems like they are 84 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 3: adding in ambiguity that makes it harder to falsify the prediction. 85 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, sort of the you know, there's obviously an art 86 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: to the cold read, and you know, there's a level 87 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: of manipulation to carrying it out as well. And also 88 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: there's a lot of self preservation, especially when you're dealing 89 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: with you know, dark and gloomy kings and ancient times. 90 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: If you want to be a diviner that lives a 91 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: long life, or even a reasonably long life, you do 92 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: have to read the room and figure out exactly what 93 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,119 Speaker 1: kind of message you're going to relay to the ruler. 94 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 3: Look, I always said there would be a decisive victory. 95 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 3: I didn't say which side would get. 96 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: So there are various methods of divination that have been 97 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: used over the years. We talked about about many on 98 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: the show before in the past, and we're going to 99 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: touch on several different ones here, but specifically concerning oil 100 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: and water divination, this is what the ancient Greeks would 101 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: come to call lacanamancy, the use of oil poured into 102 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: a basin of water to tell the future. 103 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, so the name lacanomancy comes from the Greek lakane, 104 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 3: meaning bowl. So this is lacanomancy meaning bowl divination. And 105 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 3: in the literature, yeah, it seems most often to refer 106 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 3: to omens in mixtures of oil or water, either in 107 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 3: a bowl or in a cup and could apparently be 108 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 3: done either way, maybe by I think more often by 109 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 3: pouring oil into water, but maybe also by pouring water 110 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 3: into oil. Though there are some other definitions for this 111 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 3: word that seem to overlap with the concept of hydromancy, 112 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 3: meaning divination through water. And since the name only means bowl, 113 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 3: like the name doesn't mean oil, I guess it could 114 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 3: also involve these other things, like you have a bowl 115 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 3: of water and you drop gems in it and see 116 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 3: what they do to get your omen, or you drop 117 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 3: gold or silver coins in, or you like move, you know, 118 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 3: move the water around and see which way the ripples go. 119 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 3: There are a number of ways of doing this, but 120 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 3: the oil and water one seems to have been prominent 121 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 3: in the ancient Near East. 122 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, this this lines up with what I was 123 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: reading as well. I was looking at a book from 124 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one titled Oracles and Divination, and in particular, 125 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: there's a section in it by O. R. Gurney that says, yes, 126 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: these these practices, they tended to involve a bowl or 127 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: a basin of some sort, and yes, one would either 128 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: pour oil into water or water into oil, and the 129 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: oil would cause various shapes on the surface of the water, 130 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: and these would be used through the diviner's art or 131 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: the barus art. I believe barrou is the term in 132 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: ancient Babylon to predict the future. There is also a 133 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: variation called al romance, which used flour instead of oil. 134 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: So you know, take heart, if you're out of oil 135 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: and you have some flour on hand, you can also 136 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: go with that. 137 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 3: Method make you the loosest of dose. 138 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: Now. Gurney also mentions that there now are slash were 139 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this is like the current count. 140 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: This is again a text from eighty one the six 141 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: known surviving tablets from ancient Mesopotamia dealing with oil omens, 142 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: and the author includes a couple of examples here that 143 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to read. So these would be different nuggets 144 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: of wisdom to help you the diviner interpret what's happening 145 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: in the bowl. Quote. If from the middle of the 146 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: oil two drops come out, one big, the other small, 147 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: the man's wife will bear a sun for a sick man, 148 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: he will recover. And then the next one here concerns 149 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: the use of flower instead of oil. If the flower 150 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: in the east takes the shape of a lion's face, 151 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: the man is in the grip of a ghost of 152 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: one who lies in the open country. The sun will 153 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,719 Speaker 1: consign it, the ghost to the wind, and he will 154 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: get well. 155 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 3: Oh wow, that's creepy. So wait, flower forms a lion's face. 156 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: Does that mean the ghost of one who lies in 157 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 3: the open country? Does that mean a ghost of someone 158 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 3: who didn't receive a proper burial? 159 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: Would that be? That was what it made me think of. 160 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: I'm not certain, and the author doesn't go into detail 161 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: on this, but yeah, it made me think of other 162 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: superstitions we've discussed from other traditions involving the unburied or 163 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: the improperly buried dead. 164 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 3: This was a subject often of great concern in the 165 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 3: literature and folklore of the ancient world, that like people 166 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 3: like not getting a proper burial was really something you 167 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 3: didn't want. 168 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, another form of divination that he mentions is lebanomancy, 169 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: which is divination by smoke from throwing cedar shavings on 170 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 1: an incense burner. And this would be kind of similar, 171 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: like you throw the wood shavings on their smoke billows up, 172 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: and however the smoke is moving, what shapes it seems 173 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: to be forming. That is the basis of your vision 174 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: of the future. M Now, he writes that the use 175 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: of entrails and a sacrificed animal would become more popular, 176 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: but oil, flower and smoke based divination would remain a 177 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: cheaper option, but also still one that would be invoked 178 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: and used by various important individuals, including kings, such as 179 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: when cassite Ogham the Second, he says, prayed to the 180 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: god Shamish by oil before setting out on a quest 181 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: to reclaim stolen statues of Marduk and Sarpanitum. 182 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 3: It's interesting that you mentioned lacanamancy as a cheaper alternative 183 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 3: to reading omens in the entrails of sacrificed animals. I 184 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 3: came across that exact same claim and some other sources. 185 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 3: I don't know if they're citing from a common source 186 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 3: that says that, but yeah, that is interesting obviously. So 187 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 3: I guess the benefit of reading the entrails of a 188 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 3: sacrificed animal is you're almost like, you know, you're paying 189 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 3: for the really high price ticket for your message from 190 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 3: the gods, Like you're taking a good animal, getting it sacrificed. 191 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 3: I suppose at the altar of the god you're asking 192 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 3: for the answer from and then its entrails will tell 193 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 3: you something. And the budget option, yeah, is just a 194 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 3: little bit of olive oil and some water or some 195 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 3: flour or something like that. 196 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I'm just guessing here. I mean, maybe that's 197 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: not always available. Maybe sometimes the old ways are thought 198 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: the best, or maybe sometimes you have a situation where 199 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: even a king is getting a second or third opinion 200 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: on a matter, and it's like, well, okay, what do 201 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: the Lacinda mancers have to say about this? Maybe they'll 202 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: give me the answer that I want to hear now. 203 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: The author here Gurney, goes on and mentions that there's 204 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: also a form of Lacando mancy that was used by 205 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: the Hittites that involved a basin or a tub filled 206 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: with water. Certainly, but instead of adding oil or flour, 207 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: you would add what might be a snake or possibly 208 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: an eel, and its movements in the enclosed space of 209 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: the tank would foretell the future. And it does not 210 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: in this case sound like the animal was sacrificed. It's 211 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: just about you put the animal in there, watch it 212 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: swim around. How does it behave its movements are going 213 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: to reveal what the future holds? For us now I 214 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: was looking at concerning this topic appears in the Influence 215 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: of surface films on interfacial flow Dynamics from nineteen ninety 216 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: seven by Sean Patrick McKenna, and this author writes that 217 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: lacana manci is, of course one of the forms of 218 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,119 Speaker 1: divination practice during the eighteenth century BCE in the Hamarabi 219 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: ruled Old Babylonian Empire, and points out, Yeah, there's several 220 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: tablets of the time period unearthed in the nineteenth and 221 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: twentieth centuries that list examples of the kind of mancy 222 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: and guides for interpreting what's going on in the water. 223 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: This author also shares some examples translated from these tablets. 224 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: A few of these include the following. If the oil sinks, 225 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: then rises and spreads around the water for the campaign, 226 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: unfavorable consequences for the sick divine punishment. If the oil 227 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: splits in two for the campaign, both camps should march 228 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: together for the sick death. If a drop emerges in 229 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: the east and remains stationary for the camp pain booty 230 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: for the sick recovery. If two drops emerge, one large, 231 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: one small, a male child will be born for the 232 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: sick recovery, if the oil fills the bowl for the sick, 233 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: death for the campaign, defeat for the leader. 234 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 3: This last one actually raises questions for me, because the 235 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 3: question is if the oil fills the bowl. Knowing what 236 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 3: we know about the physics of oil and water today, 237 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 3: I mean, I think what will pretty much always happen 238 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 3: is that over time, any oil in the water will 239 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 3: spread out as far as it can, and so it 240 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 3: will pretty much always spread to fill the surface of 241 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 3: water in a bowl. So it takes time for it 242 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 3: to do that. So maybe you've got to put a 243 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 3: time limit on it. Otherwise it's always going to be 244 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 3: death or defeat for the leader. I would think. 245 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there has to be an immediacy to this. 246 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: And obviously, if you especially if you don't have a 247 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: steady hand, all of your divinations can't be you know, 248 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 1: death for the sick and defeat for the leader of 249 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: an army. That's going to be bad for business, I think. 250 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 3: But it's interesting to see the pairings of the different 251 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 3: interpretations with like the two different kinds of battles, the 252 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 3: battle for health within the body, in the battle you know, 253 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 3: for the in the military campaign going on for the King. 254 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 3: So some of these pairings make sense to me, like 255 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 3: unfavorable consequences for the military campaign with divine punishment for 256 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 3: the sick death and defeat death and defeat booty and recovery. 257 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 3: That peering makes sense. The one I was confused about 258 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 3: is if the oil splits in two, that means for 259 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 3: the sick death for the campaign, both camps should march together. 260 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm maud you exactly sure what to make of 261 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: that either. 262 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, though, I like that because that's not just stating 263 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 3: an outcome, that's giving advice. 264 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, obviously another issue that all this raises is 265 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: you know, what what kinds of oil are you using 266 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: in what kinds of water? You know, there could conceivably 267 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: be differences in the reaction that takes place. Well, one 268 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: source I looked at this is from D. Tabor. This 269 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: is from nineteen eighty Babylonian Lacanomancy, an ancient text on 270 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: the spreading of oil on water, and in that the 271 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: author suggests that the water here is likely rain water 272 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: and the oil is some manner of vegetable oil. I 273 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: found that interesting, like the rain water, especially because on 274 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: one hand, okay, I guess this is going to be 275 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: how you're going to obtain the purest water that is 276 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: also free of any oils that might, you know, otherwise 277 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: contaminate it. And then on the other hand, there is 278 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: something kind of supernatural to it as well, like this 279 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: is the water that came from the sky, from the 280 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: realm of the gods, and therefore I can imagine that 281 00:15:50,680 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: playing a role in all of this as well. Now, 282 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: another interesting thing that came up in one of these 283 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: sources is they pointed this out Joe, that apparently in 284 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: the Old Testament, in Genesis forty four five, there is 285 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: a reference to lacanamancy. There's a there's a bit that goes, 286 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: is not this it in which my Lord drinketh, and 287 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: whereby indeed he divineth he have done evil in so 288 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: doing so? 289 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 3: This is a very interesting case. I think this is 290 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 3: not necessarily a reference to lacanomancy, though that is a 291 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 3: good candidate for what it is referring to. It is 292 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 3: definitely referring to a form of divination, which means I 293 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 3: think maybe this is a good time for a digression 294 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 3: on references to divination in the Bible. And here I 295 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 3: have to apologize because I got seriously over zealous in 296 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 3: pursuing this digression, which is only lightly related to the 297 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 3: topic to begin with, So please bear with me, but 298 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 3: I think it's interesting subject. So there are actually a 299 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 3: lot of references to divination in the Bible. The Hebrew Bible, 300 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 3: or what Christians would call the Old Testament, contains references 301 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 3: to a bunch of different methods of divination. First of all, 302 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 3: there is actually a divination method officially sanctioned by the 303 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 3: Torah and by the priest class in the Bible, which 304 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 3: is known as the Urim and Thummim, which seems to 305 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 3: have been some other kind of object. It's like a 306 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 3: pair of objects worn on the ceremonial breastplate of the 307 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 3: high priest. And while the exact form of these objects 308 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 3: and the procedure for using them is not certain, it 309 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 3: seems they would essentially be used for casting lots of 310 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 3: some kind by the high priest in order to receive 311 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 3: answers from God, possibly answers to yes or no questions 312 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 3: about what would happen in the future, will we be 313 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 3: successful in battle and so forth, or answers to questions 314 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 3: about the guilt or innocence of an alleged sinner. Sometimes 315 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 3: They're represented as like gems that flash with a divine 316 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 3: light in order to project messages. I think there were 317 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 3: some interpretations in the later rabbinical literature like this, but 318 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 3: I think that's all sort of like later writers speculating 319 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 3: on what these original passages in the scriptures meant. 320 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: Now the urim and thummim here, if I'm correct on this, 321 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: this is this kind of often depict that is kind 322 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: of a multi code, like you said, crystal plate that 323 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: is worn from the neck. And I remember as a child, 324 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: I would experience a certain amount of excitement and maybe 325 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: a little bit of confusion because at the time I 326 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: would have my Star Wars books on one hand, and 327 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 1: then I would have, you know, some of these illustrated 328 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: like Old Testament stories books on the other and these 329 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: looked kind of these made me think of the chest 330 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: plate of Darth Vader. 331 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, well, the chess plate of Darth Vader, 332 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 3: Like it's got all the little tic TACs and stuff 333 00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 3: on it. 334 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: Red lights and all, and oftentimes these illustrations you see 335 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: some sort of like red gems in there as well. 336 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think what it does, what is clear 337 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 3: is that these objects are linked to the breastplate of 338 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 3: the high priest in some way, like it said that 339 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 3: maybe they are put in or put on the breastplate, 340 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 3: but it's not exactly clear what they are. But what 341 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 3: is clear is that they are somehow used in an 342 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 3: officially in bounds divination process. This is what the followers 343 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 3: of the God of Israel were supposed to use for 344 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 3: divination purposes if they needed to. But the Hebrew Bible 345 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 3: also contains numerous references to other forms of divination, such 346 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 3: as necromancy. This is apparently a big concern in the 347 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 3: era of the Mosaic Law, and despite its modern interpretation 348 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 3: as a kind of evil sorcery used for like calling 349 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 3: up armies of undead skeleton soldiers and zombie swarms to go, 350 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 3: you know, get your paladins. Originally necromancy meant communication with 351 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 3: the dead for the purpose of divination, not raising zombie soldiers. 352 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: Now, to be clear, even in like the modern dungeons 353 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: and Dragons eccusage of necromancy, yes, there's a lot of 354 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: calling up the dead and using all sorts of you know, 355 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: weird spectral hands and so forth. There is still a 356 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: little bit of talking to the dead, though they keep 357 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: it real a little bit there, and we see a 358 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: bit of that in the recent Dungeons and Dragons movie. 359 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: There's a whole scene of speaking with the dead and 360 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: trying to gain wisdom from them. 361 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's played mostly for comedy, I recall. Yeah, 362 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 3: like they have a fixed number of questions they can 363 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 3: ask and so forth. Yeah, So that's what necromancy means 364 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 3: in this context, though it's not. Yeah, it's not the 365 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 3: zombie soldiers. It's the talking to the dead for the 366 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 3: purposes of gaining hidden information or knowing the past or 367 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 3: knowing the future. Anyway, in the Mosaic law there are 368 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 3: general prohibitions against divination and wizardry and magic of all forms, 369 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 3: but one of the forms of divination that is specific 370 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 3: called out in these verses is necromancy. Also, there is 371 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 3: a very famous story in the Bible about a consultation 372 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 3: with a dead prophet. This is in First Samuel chapter 373 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 3: twenty eight, where Saul, the King of Israel, famously he 374 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 3: goes to a village called Indoor to meet with a 375 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 3: wise woman or a witch who can speak to the dead. 376 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 3: And this is significant in the story because Saul has 377 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 3: condemned witchcraft and has previously banished all the wizards and 378 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 3: fortune tellers from Israel. But then he's facing a military 379 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 3: conflict with another nation, with the Philistines, and he wants 380 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 3: to know what he should do, and apparently he tries 381 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 3: to get an answer from the sanctioned methods of information. 382 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 3: He tries to consult the Urim and Thumim, he tries 383 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 3: to have a dream from God or get some kind 384 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 3: of direct revelation, and nothing ends up with no guidance 385 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 3: and has no idea what to do from any of 386 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 3: the official channels, so he goes rogue. He violates his 387 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 3: own edict. He puts on a disguise and seeks out 388 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 3: a necromancer to speak to the dead prophet Samuel. He 389 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 3: wants to get Samuel's advice on what he should do, 390 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 3: and this does not go well, so he does go 391 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 3: to the woman in disguise. She figures out it's Saul 392 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 3: by the way. She's like, oh, wait a minute, you 393 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 3: said we're not allowed to do this, and he's like, 394 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 3: oh no, don't worry about it. I need you to 395 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 3: talk to Samuel. So she raises Samuel from the grave. 396 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 3: I think she can see him, but Saul can't, and 397 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 3: he's trying to talk with him, and Samuel just does 398 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 3: not help. He seems to be kind of irritated for 399 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 3: being woken up from the sleep of death, and then 400 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 3: he condemns Saul for his treachery. And then Samuel tells 401 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 3: him that his army is going to be defeated and 402 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 3: he will lose his kingship, and Samuel is right. The 403 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 3: army is defeated and Saul falls on his own sword 404 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 3: and dies. And this story seems to, at least in part, 405 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 3: emphasize how you really shouldn't go off trail on divination methods. 406 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, stick to the to the legal methods. Don't go 407 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: into a legal divination. 408 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 3: By the way, if you've never seen it, everyone should 409 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 3: look up William Blake's painting of Saul and the Spirit 410 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 3: of Samuel and the Witch of Indoor. 411 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: Brilliant, brilliant. Yeah, I mean all of Blake's illustrations. Those 412 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: hand colored illustrations are always so great. This one's no exception. 413 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: By the way, The Witch of Indoor would also come 414 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: to play a part in the nineteen eighty five film 415 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: The Battle for Indoor. Weird how cinema listeners may remember 416 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: no real connection to the Biblical account other than other 417 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: that we're dealing with a moon of indoor and there 418 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: is a witch on it. 419 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 3: You were also not supposed to divine the future with 420 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 3: the help of Wilford Brimley. But anyway, so that's a 421 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 3: story from the Bible from after the delivery of the 422 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 3: Mosaic Law, which contains all of these prohibitions against divination 423 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 3: in general, presumably with the exception of the urim and 424 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 3: thumim and the prohibitions against necromancy in particular. But there 425 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 3: are also interesting references to divination from before the law 426 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 3: when it seems to have different connotations. So one of 427 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 3: these that occurs here is the example you raised earlier. 428 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 3: This is where we're coming back to La canamancy. This 429 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 3: is the story of Joseph in the Book of Genesis, 430 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 3: which is a long and complicated story, so I'll try 431 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 3: to do the very condensed and simplified version. Joseph is 432 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 3: one of the twelve sons of the biblical patriarch Jacob, 433 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 3: and Jacob in the story shows favoritism toward him over 434 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 3: his other brothers, even buying him a splendid coat of 435 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 3: many colors. They made a musical about it. 436 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, classic story. 437 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 3: But his brothers, who are less favored by their father, 438 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 3: become very jealous, so one day they conspire, they beat 439 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 3: him up, they trap him in a well, and they 440 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 3: sell him into slavery, where he ends up being transported 441 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 3: to Egypt. But they take Joseph's coat to their father, 442 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 3: covered in the blood of a goat, and convince him 443 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 3: that Joseph was killed by a wild animal. 444 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: Again children's story. I remember reading it alongside My Star 445 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: Wars as a child. 446 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 3: But in Egypt, Joseph does pretty well. He manages to 447 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 3: rise from lowly servitude and at one point he's imprisoned, 448 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 3: he manages to rise out of that to the rank 449 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 3: of the pharaoh's most senior lieutenant. He's like the number 450 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 3: two in Egypt. And the way he does this is 451 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 3: by showing a talent for divination. He is able to 452 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 3: interpret the omens of the future in dreams, and by 453 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 3: correctly analyzing pharaoh's dreams, he brings great prosperity to Egypt 454 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 3: at a time of famine for all the surrounding nations. 455 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 3: And actually, since it matters to my interpretation of this 456 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 3: story in a minute, the specific way this works is 457 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 3: that the pharaoh dreams of seven fat cows that are 458 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 3: eaten they're like swallowed up by seven lean cows, and 459 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 3: seven rotten stalks of grain that consumes seven good stalks 460 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 3: of grain, and Joseph realizes that this means they're going 461 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 3: to be seven years of good crops followed by seven 462 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 3: years of famine, and so to anticipate the famine, the 463 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 3: Egyptians must ration their good crops and store up extra 464 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 3: grain during the years of abundance. Joseph's prediction or his 465 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 3: interpretation of the dream comes true, and so later suffering 466 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 3: from famine like all of the surrounding nations are, Joseph's 467 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 3: brothers come to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, whom 468 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 3: they do not recognize. They don't know it's him, and 469 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 3: then they have several interactions actually, but in the last 470 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 3: one in secret, Joseph hides his silver cup in the 471 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 3: grain bag carried by his youngest brother Benjamin. He then 472 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 3: arranges to have his youngest brother caught quote stealing the 473 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 3: cup again he actually actually planted it on him, and 474 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 3: then demands Benjamin be given to him as a slave 475 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 3: as punishment, and instead their older brother Judah asks that 476 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 3: he be made a slave in Benjamin's play, and this 477 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 3: causes Joseph to break down in tears. He reveals his identity, 478 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 3: he forgives his brothers, and the family is reunited and 479 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 3: allowed to relocate to a fertile part of Egypt. But 480 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 3: it is the part of the story about the silver 481 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 3: cup that relates to divination. So when Joseph's steward finds 482 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 3: the silver cup hidden in Benjamin's sack, he says, just 483 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 3: as Joseph commands him to. He says, why have you 484 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 3: repaid evil for good? Is not this the one from 485 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 3: which my lord drinks and with which he indeed practices divination? 486 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 3: You have done evil in so doing. Now. Of course, 487 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 3: it doesn't say exactly what kind of divination he does 488 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 3: in the cup, So it could be a form of hydromancy, 489 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 3: where you would, you know, put water in the cup 490 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 3: or some liquid and drop coins or gems or other 491 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 3: objects into the water and see what they do. It 492 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 3: could be maybe used for a form of scrying, since 493 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 3: it's silver. Scrying is reading the future in reflection, and 494 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 3: a shiny surface such as a silver cup. Often a 495 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 3: crystal ball is used for scrying, but based on a 496 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 3: lot of the commentaries. I found a good candidate for 497 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 3: what is being described here is lacanomancy, where he would be, 498 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 3: you know, dropping oil into water or doing one of 499 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 3: the other things we've been talking about. But in any case, 500 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 3: I think this passage is interesting because I think the 501 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 3: staging of the theft of the silver cup used for 502 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 3: divination is supposed to be interpreted as more profound than 503 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 3: like mere burglary of an expensive cup. This is the 504 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 3: cup in which Joseph receives omens about the future, and 505 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 3: if you remember the earlier part of the story, correctly, 506 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 3: interpreting omens about the future is how Joseph rose to 507 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 3: his position of prominence in the first place. It was 508 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 3: the dream interpretations, you know, the Fadoleine cows and so forth. 509 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 3: And it's also how Egypt is currently in a good 510 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 3: position with this grain surplus during years of famine. So 511 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 3: in a way, I think with that gloss, it makes 512 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 3: sense to wonder if stealing Joseph's divination cup in the 513 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 3: story is kind of an espionage caper. It would be 514 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 3: like stealing the codes to the nuclear arsenal in a 515 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 3: modern spy thriller. This is a piece of supernatural technology 516 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 3: that helps give Egypt its strategic advantage over other nations. 517 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: Hmmm, that's fascinating. So I'm a little out of practice 518 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: with this particular Bible story. But Joseph frames one of 519 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: his brothers for stealing. 520 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 3: It, but then he undoes it. 521 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, he does it when another for his youngest brother. Yea, 522 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: his youngest brother is then fingered for the crime, and 523 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: he's like, oh, I didn't want to enslave him. He 524 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: wanted to enslave them both. 525 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, he didn't want to enslave any 526 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 3: of them. I think I think he wanted to test them. 527 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 3: It's one of those kind of stories. I think. So 528 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 3: he plants that, Yeah, he frames his youngest brother, who 529 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 3: he loves, for the crime. Then he says, I'm gonna 530 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 3: make him a slave, and then because the older brother 531 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 3: is like no, no, no, take me instead. Then I 532 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 3: think that that softens his heart and he forgives his 533 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 3: brothers for what they did to him. 534 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: Replicated family dynamic anyway you cut it, Yes, But to 535 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: your point, yeah, this is not just any cup or 536 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: any silver cup. This isn't is this isn't an artifact 537 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: of the art of divination that Joseph practices. So this 538 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: is this is vital, this is this has strategic importance 539 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: for the Egyptians. 540 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 3: Yes, and in this specific story, it is divination in 541 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 3: particular that has made Egypt prosperous. And so anyway, thinking 542 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 3: about the idea of dropping oil and water in a 543 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 3: cup or a basin to receive messages from from the 544 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 3: heavens or from the gods. You know, while even mundane 545 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 3: objects were often used for divination in the ancient world, 546 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 3: it seems clear to me why the behavior of oil 547 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 3: on water could inspire a kind of oracular fascination. Like 548 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 3: there's that sense of strangeness and wonder about it that 549 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 3: actually I found to be captured quite well in a 550 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 3: passage in a letter written by Benjamin Franklin in the 551 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 3: year seventeen seventy three. We're going to get more into 552 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 3: Benjamin Franklin, I think in the next part in this series. 553 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 3: But I wanted to read this passage because it articulates 554 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 3: the kind of amazing weirdness here when you really pay 555 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 3: attention to it. So Franklin's writing to somebody named William 556 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 3: Brownrigg in November seventeen seventy three, and he says, in 557 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 3: these experiments. One circumstance struck me with particular surprise. There 558 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 3: was the sudden, wide, and forcible spreading of a drop 559 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 3: of oil on the face of the water, which I 560 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 3: do not know that anybody has hitherto considered. If a 561 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 3: drop of oil is put on a polished marble table 562 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 3: or on a looking glass that lies horizontally, the drop 563 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 3: remains in place, spreading very little. But when put on water, 564 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 3: it spreads instantly many feet around, becoming so thin as 565 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 3: to produce the prismatic colors for a considerable space, and 566 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 3: beyond them so much thinner as to be invisible except 567 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 3: in its effect of smoothing the waves. Now, as I said, 568 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 3: we'll come back to Benjamin Franklin in the next part 569 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 3: of the series. But while I don't know if he 570 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 3: was the first person to notice the way that oil 571 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 3: spreads over the water, I actually somewhat doubt that he 572 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 3: definitely was not the first person to notice these other 573 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 3: strange properties, like the prismatic colors that tend to shine 574 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 3: out from oil spreading over a pool of water, And 575 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 3: he was certainly not the first person to notice the 576 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 3: apparent ability of oil to somehow soothe the chop of 577 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 3: threatening waters. 578 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was the thing that drew us into 579 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: this topic initially, because I know, for my part anyway, 580 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: I don't think i'd come across this before, this idea 581 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: of oil being used to calm storm waters, because I mean, 582 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: it just sounds so completely magical, and it will continue 583 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: to sound completely magical while also having a basis in 584 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: fact in science to at least a limited degree. So 585 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: the accounts that we have dealing with this with this idea, 586 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: these come from far after the time of ancient Babylon. 587 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: One of the earliest, if not the earliest. It seems 588 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: to go back to the writings of Aristotle. Aristotle lived 589 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: three eighty four through three point twenty two BCE, and 590 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: these a lot of his writings are generally just attributed 591 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: to three point fifty BCE. So Aristotle brings this up 592 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: in problems or Problemata physica, asking why is it that 593 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: the sea, which is heavier than fresh water, is more transparent? 594 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: Is it because it's fattier composition? Now, oil poured on 595 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: the surface of water makes it more transparent, and the 596 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: sea having fat in it is naturally more transparent. 597 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 3: Uh huh, okay, several things. 598 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: There's also a part in I was looking up oil 599 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 1: in various of these ancient writings, and I noticed in meteorology, 600 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: Aristotle also points out that oil contains air. So there's 601 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, mixed information here. 602 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 3: Purely speculating here that this could be totally wrong. But 603 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 3: I wonder if he's tempted to think that because oil 604 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 3: floats on the top of water, therefore like air rises 605 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 3: like bubbles through the water. 606 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: M Yeah, that sounds likely. All right. I think we're 607 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: gonna come back to Aristotle, but we're going to skip 608 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: ahead now to another favorite source on the show, and 609 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 1: that is, of course Roman historian Plenty of the Elder, 610 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: who lived twenty three or twenty four CE through seventy nine. See. 611 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: I have to say Plenty talks a lot about oils 612 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,240 Speaker 1: in the natural history. Like if you just start searching 613 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: for searching up the word oil, you're going to find 614 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: him mentioning all sorts of medicinal oils. Uh. There's also 615 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: a section titled waters which serve as a substitute for oil, 616 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: concerning waters that emit light and heal wounds. So a 617 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: lot in there for oil fans to consume and to 618 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 1: try to make sense of he's in generally a big 619 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: fan of oils, and he busts this out in Book two, 620 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: chapter one oh six. There's a whole info dump regarding 621 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: wisdom concerning the water, and he says everything is soothed 622 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: by oil and that this is the reason why divers 623 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: send out small quantities of it from their mouths, because 624 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: it's smooth any part which is rough and transmits the 625 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: light to them. M okay, So I think this is 626 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: tying in with what we were talking about earlier with 627 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: Aristotle as well, and I've seen this particular bit translated 628 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 1: as sprinkled from the mouth as well, so I believe leave. 629 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: The scenario here is that Plenty is sharing something that 630 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: he has heard or read regarding free divers carrying some 631 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: small quantity of oil in their mouths during the dive 632 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: and spitting it out to make the surrounding water more 633 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: visible during the dive while they're, you know, looking for 634 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: something like a molluskh. Now, this the quote I read 635 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:27,760 Speaker 1: is from the Mayoff translation of Plenty, and he notes 636 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: in the notes for this that while this would be 637 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: proven to be correct, the effect is greatly exaggerated both 638 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: here and elsewhere. So keep that in mind. As we're 639 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,919 Speaker 1: going here, we're dealing with, you know, second and third 640 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: hand accounts of these things that the definitely seem to 641 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: have a certain basis in fact, but also are greatly 642 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: exaggerated in the retelling. 643 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 3: Okay, well, I imagine we'll return to the mechanics of this, 644 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 3: if possible, in the next episode. But do you have 645 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 3: any idea how exactly this would work that would make 646 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 3: the water more visible? 647 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: What's my understanding that that what we're dealing with here 648 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: is that, Yeah, the idea is that oil will sort 649 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: of smooth out the surface of troubled water, but that 650 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: it will also smooth things out underneath the water, and 651 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 1: if you are free diving looking for again, you know, 652 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: fish or shells or what have you, that some small 653 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: amount of oil released into that water would make it 654 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: clearer and easier to see these things and or allow 655 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: light to filter down more effectively. Again, we'll get into 656 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 1: the actual science of this probably in the next episode, 657 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: and we have to keep in mind that again we're 658 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,439 Speaker 1: doing probably the second or third hand information here. I'm 659 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 1: guessing here this is something that Plenty had had heard 660 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: regarding some free diving people, and even though he would 661 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,919 Speaker 1: have certainly been familiar with ships and all. I don't 662 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,479 Speaker 1: remember in reading anything that indicated that he himself would 663 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: have any firsthand experience with diving underneath the water. Now, 664 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: another author who gets into some of this is Plutarch, 665 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,959 Speaker 1: who have forty six through one nineteen CE. He also 666 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: references Aristotle in Causes of Natural Phenomena, and according to 667 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: Heinrich Hunifus in Oil Untroubled Waters a historical survey, this 668 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: is likely referencing a lost portion of Aristotle's Problemata reads 669 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: as follows. This is from Plutarch. What is the reason 670 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 1: for the clearness and calm produced when the sea is 671 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: sprinkled with oil? Is it as Aristotle says that the 672 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: wind slipping over the smoothness so caused makes no impression 673 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: and raises no swell? Or does this plausibly explain the 674 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: external phenomena? Only they say that when divers take oil 675 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: into their mouths and blow it out in the depths, 676 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 1: they get illumination and can see through the water. Surely 677 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: it is impossible to adduce slipping of the wind in 678 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: the cause there. Consider, then, whether the oil does not, 679 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: by reason of its density, push and force aside the sea, 680 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: which is earthy and irregular. Subsequently, when it flows back 681 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: to its former position and draws together, intermediate passages are 682 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: left in it, which offer transparency and clear visibility to 683 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:09,879 Speaker 1: the organs of sight. 684 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting. So again I wonder if I'm understanding 685 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 3: Plutarch right here, But it sounds like maybe he's saying that, 686 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 3: like when oil is spit out under the water, it 687 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 3: kind of clears channels in the water. I wonder if 688 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 3: that would work by like attracting particles in the water 689 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 3: that would be making the water cloudy into the oil, 690 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 3: and then dragging them away with it as the oil rises. 691 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure. I couldn't find much information on 692 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: this particular detail of the scenario. Maybe I'll find something 693 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: for the next episode. But yeah, it's like you'd have 694 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: to put ourselves in the like in the position of 695 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: an ancient free diver who's you know, I assume, not 696 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,359 Speaker 1: using any kind of covering for their eyes. I did 697 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: run across some mentions of these practices where they talk 698 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: more like they were putting the oil in their eyes, which, 699 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: again I don't know how that's factoring into the sort 700 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: of telephone game of you know, second third and fourth 701 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: hand reporting on this during ancient times, in addition to 702 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: translation errors. All right, but in this we've touched on 703 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: this other big area, something that we're going to have 704 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: a lot more to discuss in the next episode as well, 705 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: and that is, Hey, if you dump some quantity of oil, 706 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: and the quantity seems to vary tremendously, if you dump 707 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: that into a stormy sea, well that's just going to 708 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: smooth everything out, smooth sailing thanks to the oil. 709 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 3: Okay, what do we have any stories about how this works? 710 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 1: We do. We have a pretty good story here, and 711 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: it comes to us from the English monk Bead, who 712 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: lived somewhere around six seventy two or six seventy three 713 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: through seven thirty. 714 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 3: Five, often known as the Venerable Bead. It's good if 715 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 3: you can get venerable attached to your name. 716 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: Yes. So the year here that he's talking about is 717 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: six fifty one, and King Oswig sometimes it's spelled Oswig 718 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,720 Speaker 1: of Northumbria sends out a priest to bring his bride 719 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,720 Speaker 1: home from Kent, and one Bishop Aiden blesses the priest 720 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 1: and gives him some holy oil and tells him, when 721 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: you set sail, you're going to encounter some really stormy weather. 722 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 1: There's going to be some high winds, so remember to 723 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: pour this oil that I'm giving you into the sea, 724 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: and that's gonna calm everything out. And this is later 725 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: described as a flask, so I'm assuming we're talking about 726 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: a magic potion quantity of oil here, rather than say, 727 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: a barrel of oil. So Bed claimed that everything happened 728 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,959 Speaker 1: as the bishop said it would. When the storms came, 729 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: the priest poured the flask of holy oil into the 730 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: sea and the storm died down. And Bid insisted that 731 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: the miracle was no mere fable, that he had heard 732 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: it from reliable sources close to the matter, so you know, 733 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: he was like, this works. This is not a tall tale. 734 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 1: This is reality. Also worth noting by the way that 735 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: Osweg or Oswig was said. It was said that he 736 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: and his queen had been gifted multiple holy relics, including 737 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: a cross with a key to it made from the 738 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: chains of the apostles Peter and Paul. 739 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, as much as this does just sound like 740 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 3: a standard magical item legend, I think whether or not 741 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 3: the story is plausible actually maybe more a matter of 742 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 3: degree rather than just like it could happen or it couldn't. 743 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 3: I don't know about using oil to stop a storm. 744 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 3: But in the next episode we're going to end up 745 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 3: exploring some surprising grains of truth in this kind of legend. 746 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you might be surprised too. It just what 747 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 1: kind of legs this idea had concerning the idea that, yeah, 748 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: you might want to have some oil on hand in 749 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 1: case the water gets choppy. 750 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 3: So maybe we got to call it there for today, 751 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 3: but we'll be back next time to talk about pouring 752 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 3: oil on the seas. 753 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, this one was more in depth than I expected, 754 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: and you never expect it, but Ben Franklin often does 755 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: show up. This is not the first episode where you 756 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: don't expect Ben Franklin, but here he comes sauntering up 757 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: with his weird energy and strange ideas, becoming a part 758 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,280 Speaker 1: of the story of a particular invention or natural phenomena 759 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: or what have you. 760 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:18,720 Speaker 3: So tune in next time. 761 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to listen to 762 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, well you'll 763 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:25,879 Speaker 1: find them on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Those are the core 764 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 1: episodes and the Stuff to Blow your Own podcast feed 765 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,440 Speaker 1: listener mail on Monday. On Wednesday, a short form artifact 766 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: or monster effect. On on Fridays, we set aside most 767 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on 768 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema. 769 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If 770 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 3: you would like to get in touch with us with 771 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,120 Speaker 3: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 772 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 3: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you 773 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,840 Speaker 3: can email us at contact stuff to Blow your Mind 774 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 3: dot com. 775 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 776 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 777 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 2: or wherever you listening to your favorite shows.