1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:24,730 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Tim Harford and I'm Dan Snow and this 2 00:00:24,970 --> 00:00:28,770 Speaker 1: is a crossover episode of my podcast Cautionary Tales and 3 00:00:28,810 --> 00:00:31,410 Speaker 1: my podcast Dan Snow's History here. And I am absolutely 4 00:00:31,410 --> 00:00:34,170 Speaker 1: delighted to be sitting here in this little booth with you, Tim. 5 00:00:34,250 --> 00:00:36,490 Speaker 2: Because cautionary tails all the face snug, isn't it. It's 6 00:00:36,530 --> 00:00:38,570 Speaker 2: very snug. And we've both got long legs. And what 7 00:00:38,650 --> 00:00:40,490 Speaker 2: I love is, as a big fan of cautionary Tales, 8 00:00:40,690 --> 00:00:44,450 Speaker 2: it's all about disaster, which makes for great content, as 9 00:00:44,450 --> 00:00:46,290 Speaker 2: we know, but also things you can learn a huge 10 00:00:46,290 --> 00:00:50,410 Speaker 2: amount about human error catastrophe through time, through history. And 11 00:00:50,490 --> 00:00:52,690 Speaker 2: I reached out to you, as our American cousins say, 12 00:00:52,730 --> 00:00:54,410 Speaker 2: because I've got a story for you. And I've just 13 00:00:54,490 --> 00:00:56,930 Speaker 2: returned from a trip to Peru, and there's an extraordinary 14 00:00:56,970 --> 00:01:03,610 Speaker 2: tale about an Incan emperor, a Spanish conquistador and ruinous miscalculation. 15 00:01:02,970 --> 00:01:05,810 Speaker 1: All about ruinous miscalculations and cautionary tales. 16 00:01:05,810 --> 00:01:09,530 Speaker 2: And with absolutely gigantic consequences, which which is the best 17 00:01:09,610 --> 00:01:11,490 Speaker 2: kind of cautionary tell of the many I've listened to. 18 00:01:11,690 --> 00:01:14,330 Speaker 2: But first him, the deal is, you've got a story 19 00:01:14,330 --> 00:01:16,130 Speaker 2: for me. I need something from you, buddy. 20 00:01:16,850 --> 00:01:19,490 Speaker 1: I have got a story for you, and it's a 21 00:01:19,490 --> 00:01:21,610 Speaker 1: story we've told before in cautionary sales, but I wanted 22 00:01:21,610 --> 00:01:25,410 Speaker 1: to get your perspective on it as a brilliant historian 23 00:01:25,450 --> 00:01:28,410 Speaker 1: and explainer of history. We are going to go back 24 00:01:28,490 --> 00:01:32,570 Speaker 1: to northern France in thirteen forty six, where a motley 25 00:01:32,650 --> 00:01:35,570 Speaker 1: band of English invaders is about to go toe to 26 00:01:35,570 --> 00:01:39,530 Speaker 1: toe with King Philip's unparalleled killing machine. 27 00:01:40,290 --> 00:01:44,130 Speaker 2: So string your bows and strap into your arm of folks, 28 00:01:44,570 --> 00:02:10,010 Speaker 2: It's going to be a good one. We're in the 29 00:02:10,050 --> 00:02:14,850 Speaker 2: fourteenth century and the Kapetionian miracle has petered out. Tim, 30 00:02:14,850 --> 00:02:16,290 Speaker 2: do you know about the Competian miracle? 31 00:02:16,410 --> 00:02:18,810 Speaker 1: I feel I'm about to be told about the Kapetian 32 00:02:18,810 --> 00:02:19,730 Speaker 1: miracle that brilliant. 33 00:02:20,010 --> 00:02:22,490 Speaker 2: Yes, you are the Kapetian dynasty are They are the 34 00:02:22,570 --> 00:02:25,770 Speaker 2: ruling family of France, and they are kind of almost 35 00:02:25,890 --> 00:02:30,970 Speaker 2: unique in European history by successfully going father to son, 36 00:02:31,170 --> 00:02:35,290 Speaker 2: producing a faintly competent male air in every generation. 37 00:02:35,130 --> 00:02:37,410 Speaker 1: Which is obviously the only way you could possibly choose 38 00:02:37,410 --> 00:02:38,290 Speaker 1: a new leader, right. 39 00:02:38,250 --> 00:02:40,490 Speaker 2: Obviously no one, No one doubts that prime geniture. Of course, 40 00:02:40,570 --> 00:02:44,090 Speaker 2: any other systems of madness. The House of Cape goes 41 00:02:44,210 --> 00:02:47,570 Speaker 2: from strength to strength from the very late to tenth century, 42 00:02:47,610 --> 00:02:50,410 Speaker 2: so they kind of nine eighties all the way down 43 00:02:50,530 --> 00:02:53,010 Speaker 2: to the early fourteenth century father to son. You know, 44 00:02:53,050 --> 00:02:55,090 Speaker 2: you could contrast that, if you like, with Edward Confessor 45 00:02:55,170 --> 00:02:58,290 Speaker 2: ten sixty six dying without heirs. Henry the First doesn't 46 00:02:58,290 --> 00:03:00,330 Speaker 2: have any sons. As a civil war that follows. There 47 00:03:00,370 --> 00:03:04,090 Speaker 2: is a problem with sunlessness in these kind of medieval dynasties, 48 00:03:04,210 --> 00:03:08,490 Speaker 2: and the COMPETIONI miracle peters out as three hale and 49 00:03:08,690 --> 00:03:11,530 Speaker 2: hearty sons of King Philip the Fourth die one after 50 00:03:11,570 --> 00:03:13,730 Speaker 2: the other Bambang and one of their sons as well. 51 00:03:13,770 --> 00:03:16,530 Speaker 2: So you just get this complete exterminating event in the 52 00:03:16,650 --> 00:03:21,210 Speaker 2: Royal House of France. And guess who on paper is 53 00:03:21,250 --> 00:03:24,010 Speaker 2: the closest male heir to that last king. 54 00:03:24,530 --> 00:03:25,330 Speaker 1: King of England. 55 00:03:25,730 --> 00:03:28,610 Speaker 2: Shockingly the King of England, it's Edward the Third. And 56 00:03:28,650 --> 00:03:30,810 Speaker 2: it's this extraordinary thing that the English and French we 57 00:03:30,890 --> 00:03:33,050 Speaker 2: might say with the sort of greatest enemies. But our histories, 58 00:03:33,050 --> 00:03:35,570 Speaker 2: our stories are lineages that are totally intertwined with each other. 59 00:03:35,610 --> 00:03:37,930 Speaker 2: I think it's a great example. Ed With the Third's 60 00:03:38,570 --> 00:03:43,570 Speaker 2: mother famous from the film Braveheart. The famous document listeners 61 00:03:43,610 --> 00:03:46,210 Speaker 2: Tim was not expecting that one. Anyway, She's a princess 62 00:03:46,210 --> 00:03:48,970 Speaker 2: of France and married to Edward the second, so Edward 63 00:03:49,010 --> 00:03:51,810 Speaker 2: the third inherits royal blood via his French. 64 00:03:51,610 --> 00:03:54,090 Speaker 1: Mother, and he forms the opinion that he, in fact 65 00:03:54,170 --> 00:03:57,010 Speaker 1: is the rightful heir to the French throne. 66 00:03:57,090 --> 00:04:00,290 Speaker 2: That he argues that the French crown can pass through 67 00:04:00,290 --> 00:04:03,250 Speaker 2: the female, very progressive, and it was the opinion of 68 00:04:03,250 --> 00:04:05,690 Speaker 2: his cousins in France that it could not, and they 69 00:04:05,730 --> 00:04:07,370 Speaker 2: had to get They went back a bit further trace 70 00:04:07,410 --> 00:04:09,210 Speaker 2: their link to the throne. So you get the two 71 00:04:09,210 --> 00:04:13,170 Speaker 2: hours of Plantagenet and Valois are both fighting now for 72 00:04:13,210 --> 00:04:15,370 Speaker 2: the French crown. It becomes known as the one hundred 73 00:04:15,450 --> 00:04:17,730 Speaker 2: Years War. What do you think is going on here? 74 00:04:17,730 --> 00:04:21,210 Speaker 2: That these two families about to thrust their respective nations 75 00:04:21,210 --> 00:04:23,490 Speaker 2: into generations of warfare. 76 00:04:23,530 --> 00:04:26,650 Speaker 1: There's uncertainty, it's unclear who is the leader. The moment 77 00:04:26,690 --> 00:04:29,650 Speaker 1: you have uncertainty, you have something to fight over. As 78 00:04:29,690 --> 00:04:32,210 Speaker 1: long as it's clear who is the boss, who is 79 00:04:32,250 --> 00:04:35,570 Speaker 1: the king, there's no reason to go to war. The 80 00:04:35,650 --> 00:04:39,050 Speaker 1: whole thing is just caused by a lack of succession planning, 81 00:04:39,210 --> 00:04:41,410 Speaker 1: as we might say in the twenty first century, but 82 00:04:41,450 --> 00:04:45,290 Speaker 1: because of that, Edward the Third brings his force over 83 00:04:45,690 --> 00:04:49,810 Speaker 1: to France and starts rampaging around, causing travel and basically 84 00:04:49,890 --> 00:04:54,850 Speaker 1: trying to prove that Philip of Valois is incapable of 85 00:04:54,890 --> 00:04:56,890 Speaker 1: being the king of France because you can't protect his 86 00:04:56,930 --> 00:04:57,490 Speaker 1: own subjects. 87 00:04:57,490 --> 00:04:59,730 Speaker 2: So it's like William the Conqueror landing in Britain and 88 00:04:59,810 --> 00:05:02,730 Speaker 2: laying waste to parts of Sussex very deliberately. It's about 89 00:05:02,730 --> 00:05:06,290 Speaker 2: delegitimizing that the king. You're saying, A, he shouldn't be 90 00:05:06,330 --> 00:05:09,650 Speaker 2: on the throne, he's not legitimate, and b, by the way, useless. 91 00:05:09,650 --> 00:05:11,530 Speaker 2: And it strikes me that that this kind of twin 92 00:05:11,650 --> 00:05:12,810 Speaker 2: track approach, isn't it? 93 00:05:12,810 --> 00:05:15,130 Speaker 1: It is now. One thing I was curious about is 94 00:05:15,130 --> 00:05:19,250 Speaker 1: why it took the French so long to respond. Edward 95 00:05:19,330 --> 00:05:21,970 Speaker 1: and his fairly small army is just laying waste to 96 00:05:22,050 --> 00:05:25,890 Speaker 1: French cities, raping and pillaging, and the French don't respond 97 00:05:25,930 --> 00:05:26,410 Speaker 1: for a while. 98 00:05:26,410 --> 00:05:30,330 Speaker 2: In this medieval period, you can't really afford to keep 99 00:05:30,570 --> 00:05:33,330 Speaker 2: men in the field. But most importantly, Edward the third 100 00:05:33,330 --> 00:05:35,810 Speaker 2: and one a crushing naval victory at the start of 101 00:05:35,810 --> 00:05:38,530 Speaker 2: the Andreds War, and so you've got a flexibility conferred 102 00:05:38,530 --> 00:05:40,890 Speaker 2: by having naval superity, so you can land in normally 103 00:05:41,250 --> 00:05:44,290 Speaker 2: the Pader Calais, Gland, Brittany. It doesn't make sense trying 104 00:05:44,290 --> 00:05:46,530 Speaker 2: to gather up a huge army and keep them all 105 00:05:46,570 --> 00:05:48,290 Speaker 2: in one place. A They're going to get sick, They're 106 00:05:48,290 --> 00:05:50,730 Speaker 2: going to eat up supplies. That's just not how armies work. 107 00:05:50,730 --> 00:05:53,090 Speaker 2: You have to get aristocrats around the country to bring. 108 00:05:52,930 --> 00:05:53,770 Speaker 1: Levies with them. 109 00:05:53,810 --> 00:05:56,810 Speaker 2: It's kind of slow process, not one that lends itself 110 00:05:56,850 --> 00:05:58,690 Speaker 2: to All right, mate, you sit there on the beach 111 00:05:58,690 --> 00:06:00,570 Speaker 2: for the next two years and wait for Edward Plantagenet. 112 00:06:00,610 --> 00:06:00,970 Speaker 1: What the thing is? 113 00:06:01,050 --> 00:06:02,650 Speaker 2: They a bit like Xerxes against all the under the 114 00:06:02,650 --> 00:06:05,570 Speaker 2: great You wait until you build up an almost overwhelming force. 115 00:06:05,690 --> 00:06:08,850 Speaker 1: Yes, it certainly vastly outnumbers the English. 116 00:06:08,570 --> 00:06:11,810 Speaker 2: Eventually to what happens because the Battle of Cressey, it 117 00:06:11,810 --> 00:06:13,610 Speaker 2: seems like the French are sort of at the end 118 00:06:13,650 --> 00:06:15,610 Speaker 2: of a long day's march. They didn't need to fight 119 00:06:15,650 --> 00:06:18,770 Speaker 2: a battle at all. It's quite extraordinary. So the English 120 00:06:18,770 --> 00:06:21,370 Speaker 2: are outnumbered and they're far from home. The English do 121 00:06:21,490 --> 00:06:24,370 Speaker 2: have this one advantage, which is they choose the battlefield. 122 00:06:24,450 --> 00:06:28,170 Speaker 2: It is a gently sloping hill with a windmill at 123 00:06:28,170 --> 00:06:31,450 Speaker 2: the top and Edward the third takes up position in 124 00:06:31,490 --> 00:06:34,530 Speaker 2: the windmill so he can look over the battlefield. They 125 00:06:34,530 --> 00:06:37,170 Speaker 2: have thousands and thousands of longbow men as well as knights. 126 00:06:37,650 --> 00:06:39,890 Speaker 2: The English longbowmen have plenty of time to dig in, 127 00:06:40,170 --> 00:06:43,810 Speaker 2: they reinforce their position, and they just sit there I 128 00:06:43,810 --> 00:06:45,570 Speaker 2: don't know, eating their pork pie or whatever it is, 129 00:06:45,610 --> 00:06:47,250 Speaker 2: and waiting for the French to show up. And the 130 00:06:47,250 --> 00:06:51,330 Speaker 2: French army, which is probably three times bigger, many more nights, 131 00:06:51,970 --> 00:06:55,450 Speaker 2: shows up as the sun is setting behind the windmill, 132 00:06:56,010 --> 00:07:01,810 Speaker 2: and one of King Philip's advisors says, let's not attack now. 133 00:07:02,090 --> 00:07:05,890 Speaker 1: There's no hurry. We will be charging into the setting sun. 134 00:07:06,050 --> 00:07:11,010 Speaker 1: We haven't prepared. Let's all pray and feast and with 135 00:07:11,090 --> 00:07:13,850 Speaker 1: God's blessing, we will attack in the morning, which would 136 00:07:13,850 --> 00:07:17,770 Speaker 1: have been very good advice to take, and Philip tries 137 00:07:17,850 --> 00:07:20,690 Speaker 1: to take it. He orders his army to stop, and 138 00:07:20,730 --> 00:07:24,370 Speaker 1: they don't stop. And that was the first phenomenon that 139 00:07:24,410 --> 00:07:27,210 Speaker 1: I wanted to explore in Cautionary Tales, because why didn't 140 00:07:27,250 --> 00:07:30,490 Speaker 1: they stop wasn't so much that they directly disobeyed him. 141 00:07:30,930 --> 00:07:33,930 Speaker 1: It was an emergent phenomenon. Basically, what was happening is 142 00:07:33,930 --> 00:07:36,290 Speaker 1: that the men at the back didn't want to stop 143 00:07:36,410 --> 00:07:39,690 Speaker 1: until they had reached the front. They didn't want to 144 00:07:39,730 --> 00:07:42,010 Speaker 1: be accused of cowardice. And the men at the front 145 00:07:42,090 --> 00:07:43,530 Speaker 1: didn't want the men at the back to catch up 146 00:07:43,530 --> 00:07:46,770 Speaker 1: with them. They didn't want to be accused of dawdling themselves. 147 00:07:46,970 --> 00:07:49,770 Speaker 1: There's this sort of pressure where nobody wants to disobey Philip, 148 00:07:49,770 --> 00:07:51,530 Speaker 1: but at the same time, they're not stopping until they're 149 00:07:51,570 --> 00:07:53,970 Speaker 1: in the front rank. And if the whole army isn't 150 00:07:53,970 --> 00:07:56,210 Speaker 1: stopping until everyone's in the front rank, the whole army 151 00:07:56,250 --> 00:07:59,290 Speaker 1: isn't stopping. And what happens is, as the sun is setting, 152 00:07:59,690 --> 00:08:02,610 Speaker 1: the advanced ranks of the French forces arrive at the 153 00:08:02,650 --> 00:08:05,690 Speaker 1: bottom of this hill, milling around in full view of 154 00:08:05,730 --> 00:08:08,930 Speaker 1: the slightly bemused English archers who were standing there, going 155 00:08:09,130 --> 00:08:12,730 Speaker 1: what are they doing? At which point King Philip decides, look, 156 00:08:12,770 --> 00:08:15,930 Speaker 1: we're kind of committed. Now we're here, we have to attack. 157 00:08:16,130 --> 00:08:17,930 Speaker 1: And that's really where the French couples begin. 158 00:08:18,130 --> 00:08:24,250 Speaker 2: There are a bunch of lusty, praise hungry, wealth, hungry, egotistical, 159 00:08:24,890 --> 00:08:27,090 Speaker 2: insecure young men. They know the easiest thing to be 160 00:08:27,090 --> 00:08:28,410 Speaker 2: to do is charge at the enemy, because then no 161 00:08:28,410 --> 00:08:30,370 Speaker 2: one could doubt their manliness and their courage over that, 162 00:08:30,370 --> 00:08:33,810 Speaker 2: and they want to win glory. And actually, what great 163 00:08:33,810 --> 00:08:36,010 Speaker 2: commanders are able to do in great systems, great cultures 164 00:08:36,090 --> 00:08:38,330 Speaker 2: are able to get them to subordinate that urge and 165 00:08:38,370 --> 00:08:40,930 Speaker 2: do exactly what they're told. And you see time and again, 166 00:08:41,210 --> 00:08:45,050 Speaker 2: whether it's Sparta, whether it's Oliver Cromwell's roundheads, whether it's 167 00:08:45,050 --> 00:08:49,330 Speaker 2: Genghis Khans Mongols, it's the troops who subordinate that. It 168 00:08:49,370 --> 00:08:51,010 Speaker 2: might not make sense to them on the ground. The 169 00:08:51,050 --> 00:08:52,930 Speaker 2: enemy's right ahead of me and they're running away. Come on, 170 00:08:52,970 --> 00:08:55,050 Speaker 2: what's going on? But you have to assume the general's 171 00:08:55,050 --> 00:08:57,290 Speaker 2: got a better intelligence picture of the battlefielder in the 172 00:08:57,290 --> 00:08:59,650 Speaker 2: theater of war. And this is the problem with medieval 173 00:08:59,770 --> 00:09:02,090 Speaker 2: armies is there just isn't that culture. 174 00:09:02,210 --> 00:09:04,010 Speaker 1: I mean, there's an economic side to this, which is 175 00:09:04,010 --> 00:09:07,410 Speaker 1: that your shock troops and most important weapon in a 176 00:09:07,450 --> 00:09:12,930 Speaker 1: medieval battle is your fully armored knights. And they're also 177 00:09:12,930 --> 00:09:15,530 Speaker 1: the richest people on the battlefield. They're the richest people 178 00:09:15,530 --> 00:09:17,730 Speaker 1: in your country. So how do you get the richest 179 00:09:17,730 --> 00:09:20,690 Speaker 1: people in your country to put themselves absolutely on the 180 00:09:20,730 --> 00:09:23,530 Speaker 1: front line. It's a bit of a problem. You need 181 00:09:23,570 --> 00:09:25,730 Speaker 1: them because no one else can afford the armor, and. 182 00:09:25,650 --> 00:09:27,650 Speaker 2: Critically, you can't afford it, so you can't have a 183 00:09:27,650 --> 00:09:31,290 Speaker 2: big central state like the Roman Empire or the British Empire. Game, right, everyone, 184 00:09:31,450 --> 00:09:32,930 Speaker 2: You're all gonna be armed with the same kit, do 185 00:09:32,970 --> 00:09:34,130 Speaker 2: the same job, and do what you're told. 186 00:09:34,210 --> 00:09:36,890 Speaker 1: Yeah, So they have autonomy and you need to give 187 00:09:36,890 --> 00:09:40,610 Speaker 1: them an incentive to take risks. And that incentive comes 188 00:09:40,610 --> 00:09:43,530 Speaker 1: from culture, which is a culture where these men they 189 00:09:43,570 --> 00:09:47,330 Speaker 1: would rather die than be accused of cowardice, which is 190 00:09:47,370 --> 00:09:49,370 Speaker 1: great if you want people to fight bravely, but not 191 00:09:49,410 --> 00:09:51,690 Speaker 1: necessarily great if you want people to just hang back 192 00:09:51,690 --> 00:09:52,570 Speaker 1: and wait till tomorrow. 193 00:09:52,770 --> 00:09:55,490 Speaker 2: Your primary objective probably is not that of the King 194 00:09:55,610 --> 00:09:59,130 Speaker 2: of France. Your objective is I want to win honor 195 00:09:59,570 --> 00:10:03,290 Speaker 2: and fame and be the subject of praise poetry. That's 196 00:10:03,330 --> 00:10:05,010 Speaker 2: not a great way to organize an army. 197 00:10:05,010 --> 00:10:07,010 Speaker 1: I mean, we should be fair and say that it's 198 00:10:07,090 --> 00:10:10,810 Speaker 1: worked fine up until this point, and this battle is 199 00:10:10,850 --> 00:10:13,010 Speaker 1: the moment where the English find that the weak point 200 00:10:13,170 --> 00:10:16,690 Speaker 1: of the French military tactics and the French military equipment. 201 00:10:17,250 --> 00:10:19,370 Speaker 2: So speaking of tactics and equipment economics, you are the 202 00:10:19,410 --> 00:10:22,930 Speaker 2: man to talk about the longbow bows made of you, 203 00:10:23,450 --> 00:10:26,250 Speaker 2: not peculiar to England and Wales, but really adopted by 204 00:10:26,250 --> 00:10:28,930 Speaker 2: the English and Welsh in this period. Is that also 205 00:10:29,050 --> 00:10:31,050 Speaker 2: a reflection of culture and the economy, do you think? 206 00:10:31,130 --> 00:10:33,850 Speaker 2: Or was it just luck? Definitely not luck. The French 207 00:10:33,970 --> 00:10:37,890 Speaker 2: don't take the missile weapons seriously. They have Genoese mercenaries 208 00:10:38,370 --> 00:10:41,330 Speaker 2: with very powerful crossbows who they don't really understand, and 209 00:10:41,490 --> 00:10:43,290 Speaker 2: they don't respect the archer. The funny thing is the 210 00:10:43,290 --> 00:10:45,490 Speaker 2: English felt the same way. So the English used to 211 00:10:45,530 --> 00:10:47,890 Speaker 2: sing songs about how the archer was a coward who 212 00:10:47,970 --> 00:10:51,090 Speaker 2: dared not come close to his foe. And Edward iid 213 00:10:51,610 --> 00:10:55,490 Speaker 2: deliberately set out to change the culture. He decided he. 214 00:10:55,450 --> 00:10:57,290 Speaker 1: Was going to build his army around this long bow, 215 00:10:57,530 --> 00:10:59,730 Speaker 1: potentially a very powerful weapon, but you need to be 216 00:10:59,770 --> 00:11:02,330 Speaker 1: very skilled. So how do you get so many skilled longbowmen? 217 00:11:02,690 --> 00:11:06,250 Speaker 1: He made it compulsory to practice archery for two hours 218 00:11:06,250 --> 00:11:07,210 Speaker 1: after church on. 219 00:11:07,610 --> 00:11:09,050 Speaker 2: Band football for that period. 220 00:11:09,290 --> 00:11:11,770 Speaker 1: Yet, oh yes, if you're really saying no, archery is 221 00:11:11,770 --> 00:11:16,130 Speaker 1: more important than football, you are making very very strong 222 00:11:16,170 --> 00:11:19,250 Speaker 1: statement to the English and the Welsh. And so over 223 00:11:19,370 --> 00:11:21,770 Speaker 1: the course of years it becomes clear that the long 224 00:11:21,810 --> 00:11:24,490 Speaker 1: bow is very important that the longbow man is to 225 00:11:24,530 --> 00:11:27,850 Speaker 1: be respected, even though he is non noble, not a knight, 226 00:11:28,090 --> 00:11:30,210 Speaker 1: but is a very important part of the army. And 227 00:11:30,290 --> 00:11:34,570 Speaker 1: so you have a large, respected and very skilled forces 228 00:11:34,570 --> 00:11:37,130 Speaker 1: of long women who are deployed at Crecy. 229 00:11:37,490 --> 00:11:40,610 Speaker 2: And these can shoot fifteen arrows every minute. I have 230 00:11:40,690 --> 00:11:43,010 Speaker 2: not been able to achieve that rate rate of shooting. 231 00:11:43,050 --> 00:11:45,130 Speaker 1: But they have you practiced for two hours after church 232 00:11:45,210 --> 00:11:47,730 Speaker 1: every Sunday. I have not. So this is the setup. 233 00:11:47,810 --> 00:11:51,010 Speaker 1: The English longbomen are uphill, so they've got an extra 234 00:11:51,090 --> 00:11:56,850 Speaker 1: range advantage. They're dug in. Philip sends the Genoese crossbowman 235 00:11:57,250 --> 00:12:00,210 Speaker 1: out to fight. Just take out those English longwomen and 236 00:12:00,210 --> 00:12:03,730 Speaker 1: then we'll charge the crossbowman. We're supposed to be equipped 237 00:12:03,730 --> 00:12:06,410 Speaker 1: with this huge shield with a spike in the bottom, 238 00:12:06,410 --> 00:12:09,410 Speaker 1: and they would carry the shield out onto the battlefield, 239 00:12:09,410 --> 00:12:12,690 Speaker 1: the spike into the soft earth and crouch behind the 240 00:12:12,690 --> 00:12:15,570 Speaker 1: shield while loading the crossbow. Because the crossbers was very 241 00:12:15,610 --> 00:12:20,410 Speaker 1: powerful weapon, very sophisticated weapon, much feared, but slow to reload, 242 00:12:20,450 --> 00:12:22,970 Speaker 1: and ideally you reload it with your foot because that 243 00:12:23,370 --> 00:12:26,090 Speaker 1: gives you the fall. Quite vulnerable, are you You're quite vulnerable? 244 00:12:26,130 --> 00:12:28,730 Speaker 1: But not if you're behind your big shield. Well, remember 245 00:12:28,890 --> 00:12:31,530 Speaker 1: the French army arrived on the battlefield in some disarray 246 00:12:31,610 --> 00:12:34,330 Speaker 1: with a bit of a pile up, and the shields 247 00:12:34,330 --> 00:12:37,050 Speaker 1: are back in the baggage train. These mercenaries, they must 248 00:12:37,090 --> 00:12:39,770 Speaker 1: have been furious. They've been marching all day next to 249 00:12:39,810 --> 00:12:43,050 Speaker 1: these French knights who were in the saddle. They're tired, 250 00:12:43,130 --> 00:12:45,370 Speaker 1: they're hungry. Now they're cented to battle and they don't 251 00:12:45,370 --> 00:12:48,850 Speaker 1: even have their shields. So they march uphill to try 252 00:12:48,890 --> 00:12:51,250 Speaker 1: to take out the English longbowmen. And then there's a 253 00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:54,530 Speaker 1: bit of luck for the English. It's a sudden rain shower. 254 00:12:54,930 --> 00:12:58,250 Speaker 1: The English longbow is very easy to unstring, so they 255 00:12:58,330 --> 00:13:00,690 Speaker 1: quickly unstring it. They keep the strings under their hats. 256 00:13:00,730 --> 00:13:02,290 Speaker 1: Keep it under your hat, keep it under your hat. 257 00:13:02,530 --> 00:13:05,450 Speaker 1: The more sophisticated, more complex crossbow you can't do that. 258 00:13:05,810 --> 00:13:08,770 Speaker 1: So the genuine grosspermen their strings get wet, which makes 259 00:13:08,810 --> 00:13:12,570 Speaker 1: them loose and reduces the range. They're marching up hill. 260 00:13:12,970 --> 00:13:14,890 Speaker 1: The hill is now a bit soft because of all 261 00:13:14,890 --> 00:13:18,250 Speaker 1: that sudden downpour, and maybe they're a little shy to 262 00:13:18,290 --> 00:13:21,210 Speaker 1: get too close to the archers who have that height advantage. 263 00:13:21,490 --> 00:13:26,730 Speaker 1: They stop, they fire their first volley and fall slightly short, 264 00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:29,050 Speaker 1: and there is not a second volley. 265 00:13:29,650 --> 00:13:32,810 Speaker 2: No, because the English starts shooting their longbows and at 266 00:13:32,850 --> 00:13:34,050 Speaker 2: quite a long range as well. 267 00:13:34,210 --> 00:13:37,650 Speaker 1: Yeah, they just rain down these arrows. They're able to 268 00:13:37,690 --> 00:13:41,930 Speaker 1: fire with tremendous rapidity. And the crossbow men, who don't 269 00:13:41,930 --> 00:13:44,250 Speaker 1: have their shields, they just break and run. They've never 270 00:13:44,250 --> 00:13:46,570 Speaker 1: seen anything like this. They're running back down the hill. 271 00:13:47,210 --> 00:13:50,650 Speaker 1: And then some reports claim that King Philip was so 272 00:13:50,770 --> 00:13:53,450 Speaker 1: contemptuous of the cross bow men, powerful force who he 273 00:13:53,890 --> 00:13:56,610 Speaker 1: misused them completely. He was so contemptuous of them that 274 00:13:56,690 --> 00:13:59,330 Speaker 1: he ordered his knights to just charge straight through them 275 00:13:59,450 --> 00:14:01,770 Speaker 1: and attack them down. If they've got them away, and 276 00:14:01,970 --> 00:14:03,010 Speaker 1: attack the English. 277 00:14:03,210 --> 00:14:04,090 Speaker 2: Just engage the enemy. 278 00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:07,170 Speaker 1: Yeah, did not go well. 279 00:14:09,410 --> 00:14:11,890 Speaker 2: It's interesting, isn't it, through history, the sort of lack 280 00:14:11,970 --> 00:14:15,090 Speaker 2: of respect existing hierarchies have for kind of new technology, 281 00:14:15,170 --> 00:14:17,490 Speaker 2: new ways of doing things. I reminded that British admiral 282 00:14:17,570 --> 00:14:21,530 Speaker 2: who went to an early demonstration of submarines, and he 283 00:14:21,770 --> 00:14:25,570 Speaker 2: sputtered that it was underhand, unfair and damn done. English. 284 00:14:25,930 --> 00:14:30,330 Speaker 2: It's strange how blind we can be to engaging with 285 00:14:30,410 --> 00:14:31,770 Speaker 2: and using this new technology. 286 00:14:31,810 --> 00:14:35,010 Speaker 1: But they're also not very interested in the English longbowmen 287 00:14:35,090 --> 00:14:38,130 Speaker 1: who are mostly on their flanks. They want to make 288 00:14:38,170 --> 00:14:43,530 Speaker 1: contact with the English Knights because their honor cutting down 289 00:14:43,570 --> 00:14:45,450 Speaker 1: a bunch of peasants charge for the English knights, so 290 00:14:45,730 --> 00:14:49,210 Speaker 1: they just ignore the longbowmen who are raining down these 291 00:14:49,330 --> 00:14:52,570 Speaker 1: arrows from a defended position from either side and in front. 292 00:14:53,130 --> 00:14:57,210 Speaker 1: And remember the ground is soft, it's uphill. You've got 293 00:14:57,490 --> 00:15:01,250 Speaker 1: several thousand Jenuese crossbowmen trying to get off the battlefield, 294 00:15:01,770 --> 00:15:04,130 Speaker 1: and the horses are dying under this rain of arrows. 295 00:15:04,370 --> 00:15:06,650 Speaker 1: So the charge just breaks down in disworder. It's not 296 00:15:06,690 --> 00:15:09,250 Speaker 1: that thousands of French Knights are killed, but just the 297 00:15:09,250 --> 00:15:13,090 Speaker 1: they cannot sustain the momentum, and the few that reached 298 00:15:13,090 --> 00:15:15,850 Speaker 1: the English lines are thrown back and they have to 299 00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:19,450 Speaker 1: withdraw in disorder and put themselves together, and they decide 300 00:15:19,450 --> 00:15:20,290 Speaker 1: what to do next. 301 00:15:20,410 --> 00:15:24,170 Speaker 2: It's so interesting you say that, and how people, especially 302 00:15:24,170 --> 00:15:26,290 Speaker 2: at officers, especially the members of the League, how they 303 00:15:26,330 --> 00:15:30,690 Speaker 2: want to go to war. I'm reminded of the Spanish Armador, 304 00:15:30,730 --> 00:15:33,490 Speaker 2: when the British ships developed this idea of cannon staying 305 00:15:33,530 --> 00:15:35,810 Speaker 2: off Spanish ships and just blast them with cannon. Not 306 00:15:35,890 --> 00:15:38,530 Speaker 2: very gentlemanly, really. I remember reading about one Spanish officer 307 00:15:38,570 --> 00:15:40,850 Speaker 2: who would shout it stood in the rigging shout, brandishing 308 00:15:40,850 --> 00:15:43,130 Speaker 2: his sword and shouting at the English, calling them Lutheran 309 00:15:43,290 --> 00:15:46,370 Speaker 2: hens because they didn't come alongside and fight as you should, 310 00:15:46,410 --> 00:15:49,570 Speaker 2: hand to hand on each other's quarterdeck and the cannon 311 00:15:49,570 --> 00:15:52,250 Speaker 2: ball to the face and presume exactly presumably so in 312 00:15:52,290 --> 00:15:54,490 Speaker 2: the same way you know, early cavalryman didn't want to 313 00:15:54,490 --> 00:15:55,930 Speaker 2: go and fight in tanks like, no, it's not what 314 00:15:55,970 --> 00:15:57,450 Speaker 2: I've signed up. But it's not what my dad did, 315 00:15:57,490 --> 00:15:59,250 Speaker 2: it's not my older brothers have done. So your point 316 00:15:59,250 --> 00:16:02,010 Speaker 2: there is so fascinating. They don't, by the way, people 317 00:16:02,010 --> 00:16:04,330 Speaker 2: who are interested. There is also a cautionary tales about 318 00:16:04,330 --> 00:16:08,090 Speaker 2: how the British army invented blitzkrieg and then forgot all 319 00:16:08,090 --> 00:16:11,170 Speaker 2: about it. Tims, with most of my content, it's stolen 320 00:16:11,170 --> 00:16:13,050 Speaker 2: from stuff that you've done previously. But I just go 321 00:16:13,090 --> 00:16:16,770 Speaker 2: through your backhut re splicing it so Tim, the first 322 00:16:16,850 --> 00:16:20,530 Speaker 2: charge gets thrown back and then begins this absolute killing fields, 323 00:16:20,570 --> 00:16:25,250 Speaker 2: longbow arrows raining down, repeated French charges, chaos. 324 00:16:25,010 --> 00:16:28,770 Speaker 1: Because the French do it again and again and again 325 00:16:29,490 --> 00:16:32,930 Speaker 1: and again and again, and the same thing happens every time. 326 00:16:32,970 --> 00:16:35,330 Speaker 1: It's just getting more and more difficult. The battlefield is 327 00:16:35,330 --> 00:16:37,810 Speaker 1: gett muddier and muddier. Are the stories of French nights 328 00:16:37,850 --> 00:16:40,450 Speaker 1: drowning in their own helmets every time they try to 329 00:16:40,490 --> 00:16:43,050 Speaker 1: do it. There's more dead men and more dead horses 330 00:16:43,090 --> 00:16:46,330 Speaker 1: on the battlefield, and they're not really reaching the English. 331 00:16:46,370 --> 00:16:48,090 Speaker 1: I mean, occasionally there is a bit of a skirmish, 332 00:16:48,170 --> 00:16:50,410 Speaker 1: but fundamentally they're thrown back every single time, and every 333 00:16:50,450 --> 00:16:53,610 Speaker 1: single time with tremendous skill. They wheel around at the 334 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:57,010 Speaker 1: bottom of the battlefield. It's getting darker and darker. They think, well, 335 00:16:57,010 --> 00:16:58,970 Speaker 1: what should we do. Let's do it again. 336 00:16:59,010 --> 00:17:00,690 Speaker 2: But I bet that also that bit's important. I bet 337 00:17:00,730 --> 00:17:02,850 Speaker 2: it's not the king going right everybody. I bet it's 338 00:17:02,890 --> 00:17:06,170 Speaker 2: just sort of individual nobles going on my honor, follow me, 339 00:17:06,250 --> 00:17:09,010 Speaker 2: and then it's sort of that kind of chaotic, crumbling frontier. 340 00:17:09,130 --> 00:17:11,770 Speaker 1: I do this one famous example, which is the blind 341 00:17:11,850 --> 00:17:15,250 Speaker 1: King John. He's about fifty, he's lost his sight about 342 00:17:15,250 --> 00:17:18,970 Speaker 1: ten years previously, and he asks to be led into 343 00:17:19,010 --> 00:17:21,930 Speaker 1: battle even though he can't see, which I think is 344 00:17:22,130 --> 00:17:25,890 Speaker 1: a fantastic illustration of both the courage and the heroism 345 00:17:25,970 --> 00:17:28,330 Speaker 1: and just the stupid futility of it. Because of course 346 00:17:28,530 --> 00:17:31,490 Speaker 1: blind King John of Bohemia is immediately killed, and then 347 00:17:31,530 --> 00:17:33,970 Speaker 1: of course everyone sings songs about what a great hero 348 00:17:34,090 --> 00:17:36,570 Speaker 1: he was. But there we go. That's the French approach, 349 00:17:36,610 --> 00:17:37,330 Speaker 1: all summed up, and. 350 00:17:37,330 --> 00:17:39,610 Speaker 2: You can imagine him going forward with his little bodyguard, 351 00:17:39,730 --> 00:17:41,650 Speaker 2: and then other people think, oh, there's something else going on, 352 00:17:41,730 --> 00:17:43,890 Speaker 2: they join, and then everyone's like, oh, we're going up again. 353 00:17:43,970 --> 00:17:46,410 Speaker 1: I mean, it seems so stupid to us. But this 354 00:17:46,450 --> 00:17:48,650 Speaker 1: is where I got very interested in cautionary tales about well, 355 00:17:48,690 --> 00:17:51,330 Speaker 1: what is going on? This is the French military culture 356 00:17:51,610 --> 00:17:53,730 Speaker 1: of the time. What does it even mean to have 357 00:17:53,730 --> 00:17:56,530 Speaker 1: a culture? And of all places, I found an explanation 358 00:17:56,610 --> 00:17:59,490 Speaker 1: in the Harvard Business Review all about corporate culture and 359 00:17:59,490 --> 00:18:01,890 Speaker 1: how it worked. And one of the things they said 360 00:18:01,890 --> 00:18:03,890 Speaker 1: in this article that the culture is a thing that 361 00:18:04,130 --> 00:18:07,090 Speaker 1: you have in common with other people. It's everywhere in 362 00:18:07,130 --> 00:18:09,570 Speaker 1: a way that it means that you don't ness necessarily 363 00:18:09,610 --> 00:18:15,050 Speaker 1: see it, and it's not articulated. It's implicit rather than explicit. 364 00:18:15,570 --> 00:18:20,210 Speaker 1: It wasn't that the French Knights came up with the 365 00:18:20,250 --> 00:18:24,610 Speaker 1: wrong answers, is that they didn't even ask the questions, 366 00:18:25,210 --> 00:18:27,010 Speaker 1: why are we doing this? Why don't we just wait 367 00:18:27,050 --> 00:18:30,650 Speaker 1: till morning. The English are completely outnumbered. We're in France, 368 00:18:30,690 --> 00:18:35,290 Speaker 1: We're surrounded by friendly territory. Let's wait till dawn and 369 00:18:35,530 --> 00:18:38,050 Speaker 1: have another go, or maybe even just dismount and walk 370 00:18:38,130 --> 00:18:40,130 Speaker 1: up there. We could walk up there and kill them. 371 00:18:40,370 --> 00:18:43,210 Speaker 1: We've got such numerical superiority. But no, we have to ride, 372 00:18:43,250 --> 00:18:47,130 Speaker 1: we have to charge. And because of their culture, which 373 00:18:47,130 --> 00:18:49,490 Speaker 1: had served them very well up to that point, they 374 00:18:49,530 --> 00:18:52,530 Speaker 1: weren't even able to ask those questions, let alone come 375 00:18:52,610 --> 00:18:53,570 Speaker 1: up with the answers. 376 00:18:54,130 --> 00:18:57,850 Speaker 2: It's extraordinary. But the English are unable to turn this 377 00:18:57,890 --> 00:19:00,890 Speaker 2: sort of battlefield advantage. So this tactical success that there 378 00:19:00,970 --> 00:19:05,250 Speaker 2: unable to win. The third never becomes King of France. 379 00:19:05,570 --> 00:19:08,970 Speaker 1: He strolls off to Calais, which the English then hold 380 00:19:09,250 --> 00:19:12,770 Speaker 1: for many, many decades afterwards. But they don't hold much else. 381 00:19:12,930 --> 00:19:15,970 Speaker 1: I mean, the battle is a catastrophe for France, even 382 00:19:16,010 --> 00:19:19,850 Speaker 1: if it's not a particular triumph for the English, because 383 00:19:20,090 --> 00:19:22,490 Speaker 1: so many French nobles die on this battlefield. 384 00:19:22,610 --> 00:19:24,930 Speaker 2: It was one hundred years war. Ultimately, the English deal 385 00:19:25,050 --> 00:19:27,770 Speaker 2: is that Warrant and the French do adapt the culture changes. 386 00:19:27,930 --> 00:19:32,330 Speaker 2: They adopt gunpowder weapons a lot more so, perhaps crushing 387 00:19:32,330 --> 00:19:34,170 Speaker 2: defeat is where culture starts to change. 388 00:19:34,530 --> 00:19:38,130 Speaker 1: Culture can change, and it often changes with learning from 389 00:19:38,130 --> 00:19:39,530 Speaker 1: your mistakes. But it takes time. 390 00:19:40,250 --> 00:19:43,730 Speaker 2: Tim a man who's met and have made any mistakes, Thank. 391 00:19:43,490 --> 00:19:45,810 Speaker 1: You very much. But Dan, this was such fun. I 392 00:19:45,810 --> 00:19:49,370 Speaker 1: shall shall remind people that they can listen to the 393 00:19:49,370 --> 00:19:52,170 Speaker 1: Battle of Crecy in the caution Retales archives. And of 394 00:19:52,210 --> 00:19:56,010 Speaker 1: course the one or two listeners who have not yet 395 00:19:56,090 --> 00:19:58,930 Speaker 1: encountered Dan Snow's history hit well now they know that 396 00:19:58,970 --> 00:20:01,410 Speaker 1: they must subscribe and you can find it wherever you 397 00:20:01,450 --> 00:20:03,610 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. But we're not finished. We will be 398 00:20:03,690 --> 00:20:06,570 Speaker 1: back in just a moment after the break. And when 399 00:20:06,650 --> 00:20:11,210 Speaker 1: we return, we're shifting contents, we will be shifting centuries, 400 00:20:11,250 --> 00:20:14,450 Speaker 1: and Dan Snow, we'll be telling me another cautionary tale 401 00:20:14,530 --> 00:20:19,170 Speaker 1: about another mighty power that failed to comprehend its opponent. 402 00:20:20,210 --> 00:20:33,090 Speaker 1: Back soon we're back. I am sitting here with Dan Snow, 403 00:20:33,250 --> 00:20:37,730 Speaker 1: the historian, the host of Dan Snow's History Hit Now. Dan. 404 00:20:37,970 --> 00:20:41,490 Speaker 1: When Spanish conquistador has arrived in Peru in fifteen twenty six, 405 00:20:41,490 --> 00:20:43,090 Speaker 1: it was the beginning of the end for the Inca. 406 00:20:43,130 --> 00:20:46,530 Speaker 1: As you well know, a bloody pursuit of gold, fame 407 00:20:46,610 --> 00:20:49,650 Speaker 1: and fortune was rife with treachery and deceit, and within 408 00:20:49,690 --> 00:20:54,610 Speaker 1: a few short years the once thriving Incan Empire had 409 00:20:54,690 --> 00:20:58,850 Speaker 1: been decimated. Now, Dan, you've recently returned from a research 410 00:20:58,850 --> 00:21:02,730 Speaker 1: trip to Matcheu Picchu in Peru. Where should we start? 411 00:21:02,730 --> 00:21:04,930 Speaker 1: Should we start with the man at the helm of 412 00:21:04,930 --> 00:21:07,210 Speaker 1: this Brookly invasion, Francisco Pizari. 413 00:21:07,290 --> 00:21:10,530 Speaker 2: Oh, just a remarkable figure of We could go back 414 00:21:10,610 --> 00:21:15,050 Speaker 2: even further because actually the conquistors might have arrived in Peru, 415 00:21:15,130 --> 00:21:17,130 Speaker 2: but they're diseases had arrived earlier. And I think that 416 00:21:17,610 --> 00:21:20,090 Speaker 2: forms the absolute foundation for everything we're talking about here. 417 00:21:20,370 --> 00:21:24,010 Speaker 2: It's now thought that something like nine out of ten 418 00:21:24,210 --> 00:21:27,530 Speaker 2: Indigenous Americans, so that's people North and South American and 419 00:21:27,530 --> 00:21:32,170 Speaker 2: the Caribbean, they succumbed to European diseases small pox typhus 420 00:21:32,730 --> 00:21:36,450 Speaker 2: in the century or a couple of centuries after Christopher 421 00:21:36,490 --> 00:21:37,170 Speaker 2: Columbus arrived. 422 00:21:37,250 --> 00:21:39,530 Speaker 1: Yeah, so Columbus Columbus arrived in fourteen ninety two. We're 423 00:21:39,570 --> 00:21:43,730 Speaker 1: now talking about fifteen twenty six, so they've it's only 424 00:21:43,770 --> 00:21:45,050 Speaker 1: been thirty odd. 425 00:21:44,890 --> 00:21:47,770 Speaker 2: Years, but the disease have traveled faster than the Spanish. 426 00:21:47,890 --> 00:21:49,770 Speaker 2: As you can imagine, from person to person and. 427 00:21:50,410 --> 00:21:52,290 Speaker 1: We've had an illustration of holy that can happen. 428 00:21:52,330 --> 00:21:56,250 Speaker 2: We we certainly have. And the Spanish obviously the first 429 00:21:56,290 --> 00:21:58,290 Speaker 2: it's a little toe hold in the Caribbean, and then 430 00:21:58,370 --> 00:22:02,850 Speaker 2: it's it's islands, several islands, and then famously you get 431 00:22:02,930 --> 00:22:05,730 Speaker 2: Cortez who goes to Mexico and topples the Aztec Empire 432 00:22:05,730 --> 00:22:07,290 Speaker 2: at the beginning of the sixteenth century. And so the 433 00:22:07,290 --> 00:22:09,810 Speaker 2: Spanish tentacles are now extending out to the so called 434 00:22:09,810 --> 00:22:13,010 Speaker 2: New World, and Peru is a little bit later than that. 435 00:22:13,170 --> 00:22:16,730 Speaker 1: So tell me Francisco Pizarro, who was he Bizarro? 436 00:22:17,690 --> 00:22:20,290 Speaker 2: Well, he's the kind of man that you'd expect to 437 00:22:20,490 --> 00:22:26,250 Speaker 2: rise at a time of upheaval. That change represents huge 438 00:22:26,250 --> 00:22:29,010 Speaker 2: opportunity to people like him who are ambitious. He was 439 00:22:29,050 --> 00:22:31,130 Speaker 2: born in fourteen seventy eight. We think he was a 440 00:22:31,170 --> 00:22:33,890 Speaker 2: legitimate She was born to a woman, a very humble 441 00:22:33,930 --> 00:22:37,170 Speaker 2: birth that he's described as a swineherd. And he's a 442 00:22:37,170 --> 00:22:39,130 Speaker 2: man who therefore has got very little to lose. He 443 00:22:39,170 --> 00:22:42,370 Speaker 2: seeks the opportunity. If you're a settled our ascritcher, if 444 00:22:42,410 --> 00:22:44,370 Speaker 2: you're the Duke of Medina Sedoni, you don't tend to 445 00:22:44,490 --> 00:22:46,650 Speaker 2: take your life in your hands, cross the Atlantic and 446 00:22:46,690 --> 00:22:48,930 Speaker 2: try and hack out a life in the new World. 447 00:22:49,770 --> 00:22:52,970 Speaker 2: And so he goes with a bunch of other adventurers. 448 00:22:53,130 --> 00:22:58,010 Speaker 2: Really yeah, hard men, ambitious, nothing to lose, nothing to 449 00:22:58,010 --> 00:22:58,570 Speaker 2: get back for. 450 00:22:58,770 --> 00:23:01,770 Speaker 1: And he's not an official representative of the Spanish crown, 451 00:23:01,810 --> 00:23:04,370 Speaker 1: but he sort of has permission to go and have 452 00:23:04,450 --> 00:23:05,330 Speaker 1: a crack, doesn't he. 453 00:23:05,490 --> 00:23:10,050 Speaker 2: Yes, Spanish colonialism, even the Spanish it can't often afford. 454 00:23:10,130 --> 00:23:11,650 Speaker 2: It's not We're going to raise an army of ten 455 00:23:11,690 --> 00:23:13,450 Speaker 2: thousand men and a fleet of ships and send them 456 00:23:13,450 --> 00:23:15,890 Speaker 2: all under chosen officers, and everything will be done a 457 00:23:15,970 --> 00:23:19,250 Speaker 2: cooint to Spanish law. So you send out these ruffians 458 00:23:19,290 --> 00:23:22,370 Speaker 2: and if they're successful, the state will kind of backfill 459 00:23:22,410 --> 00:23:24,450 Speaker 2: it and move in afterwards. And if they disappear into 460 00:23:24,450 --> 00:23:26,930 Speaker 2: the wilderness the jungles of Central America, you go, well, 461 00:23:27,170 --> 00:23:30,370 Speaker 2: no great loss. And so he and his brothers put together. 462 00:23:30,530 --> 00:23:32,250 Speaker 2: He goes on in one of the first expeditions across 463 00:23:32,290 --> 00:23:34,930 Speaker 2: the Isthmus of Panama in fifteen oh two. And by 464 00:23:34,970 --> 00:23:37,690 Speaker 2: the fifteen twenties he's wealthy enough, he's got enough of 465 00:23:37,690 --> 00:23:40,490 Speaker 2: a reputation to gather a little band of follows. I mean, 466 00:23:40,490 --> 00:23:41,530 Speaker 2: it's not unlike the Vikings. 467 00:23:41,530 --> 00:23:43,570 Speaker 1: You could say he's got fewer than two hundred, hasn't Ye. 468 00:23:44,050 --> 00:23:47,250 Speaker 2: These are war bands. They're setting out from secure bases 469 00:23:47,250 --> 00:23:50,250 Speaker 2: on islands in Central America and other places, and they're 470 00:23:50,290 --> 00:23:51,570 Speaker 2: just seeing what they see. 471 00:23:51,690 --> 00:23:54,490 Speaker 1: But he has his sight set on a treasure city. 472 00:23:54,530 --> 00:23:57,050 Speaker 2: Yes, there's some idea rumors. There's rumors of a city 473 00:23:57,050 --> 00:23:58,930 Speaker 2: of gold in what we now call Peru. 474 00:23:59,010 --> 00:24:01,290 Speaker 1: Peru. We should say, for people who don't have the 475 00:24:01,290 --> 00:24:03,850 Speaker 1: Atlas to mind, is it's on the Pacific cases on 476 00:24:03,850 --> 00:24:04,930 Speaker 1: the west side of South America. 477 00:24:04,970 --> 00:24:07,450 Speaker 2: You've got it, the Spanish establishment, place like Columbia on 478 00:24:07,530 --> 00:24:09,610 Speaker 2: the on in the Gulf of Mexico. You go across, 479 00:24:09,690 --> 00:24:12,610 Speaker 2: and then he start looking down that west coast of 480 00:24:12,610 --> 00:24:15,370 Speaker 2: South America, that at the spine of the Andes. And 481 00:24:15,410 --> 00:24:17,410 Speaker 2: there were rumors, were rumors because there was a huge 482 00:24:17,410 --> 00:24:20,450 Speaker 2: amount trade and exchange in this period before the Europeans arrived, 483 00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:22,930 Speaker 2: and the rumors of the glittering civilization with lots of 484 00:24:22,970 --> 00:24:24,690 Speaker 2: gold and lots of silver, and. 485 00:24:25,170 --> 00:24:29,290 Speaker 1: The Incan civilization is indeed enormously impressive. 486 00:24:28,930 --> 00:24:32,650 Speaker 2: And it was enormously impressive, enormously sophisticated, but critically, not 487 00:24:32,690 --> 00:24:36,450 Speaker 2: only are they in the process of undergoing this extraordinary 488 00:24:36,490 --> 00:24:39,570 Speaker 2: mortality event that the Inca emperor, for example, dies and 489 00:24:39,610 --> 00:24:42,410 Speaker 2: his two sons are then thrown into civil war against 490 00:24:42,490 --> 00:24:45,370 Speaker 2: him another succession. Now that it's a big session crisis, 491 00:24:45,450 --> 00:24:48,210 Speaker 2: and so these two sons are fighting, and suddenly these 492 00:24:48,290 --> 00:24:51,050 Speaker 2: Europeans appear on the northern edge of the empire. Tiny 493 00:24:51,050 --> 00:24:53,250 Speaker 2: little band of soldiers, they can't do that much harm, 494 00:24:53,290 --> 00:24:57,050 Speaker 2: but the empire is in absolutely is wrestling with diseases. 495 00:24:57,370 --> 00:24:59,250 Speaker 1: I mean millions of people, I think millions of people. 496 00:25:00,210 --> 00:25:02,330 Speaker 2: Largest empire in the history of the Americas for the 497 00:25:02,410 --> 00:25:05,210 Speaker 2: rival of the Europeans. Are stretching from I think parts 498 00:25:05,210 --> 00:25:10,770 Speaker 2: of Columbia, southern Colombia down to Margentina and Chile, and 499 00:25:10,810 --> 00:25:16,130 Speaker 2: a remarkable empire, extraordinary road network. No written language, but 500 00:25:16,690 --> 00:25:17,690 Speaker 2: you must have done something on. 501 00:25:17,610 --> 00:25:21,170 Speaker 1: This to language. No, actually I studied at primary school. 502 00:25:21,690 --> 00:25:25,810 Speaker 1: Fascinating but also no horses. So it's an enormous civilization. 503 00:25:25,890 --> 00:25:29,210 Speaker 1: It's a very sophisticated civilization. But they're in crisis. They're 504 00:25:29,250 --> 00:25:32,810 Speaker 1: losing tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people 505 00:25:32,850 --> 00:25:35,170 Speaker 1: to small pox. They are in the middle of a 506 00:25:35,170 --> 00:25:37,970 Speaker 1: civil war. War. Pizar shows up up. 507 00:25:37,970 --> 00:25:40,530 Speaker 2: They've got other problems, which is they're enormous sophisticated, but 508 00:25:40,570 --> 00:25:43,970 Speaker 2: they lack gunpowder weapons. They lack horses, they lack beasts 509 00:25:44,010 --> 00:25:48,370 Speaker 2: of burden. The biggest domesticable animal in South America is Alarma, 510 00:25:49,130 --> 00:25:51,610 Speaker 2: and Alarma cannot carry nearly as much way as a horse. 511 00:25:51,770 --> 00:25:54,290 Speaker 2: They have no wheeled transport. That's what's so fascinating and 512 00:25:54,330 --> 00:25:56,730 Speaker 2: mind blowing about this place. They're capable of building fortresses, 513 00:25:57,010 --> 00:26:00,890 Speaker 2: enormous rocks, enormous stones, which which made the Spanish believe 514 00:26:00,890 --> 00:26:02,450 Speaker 2: when they first set eyes upon them they were the 515 00:26:02,450 --> 00:26:04,970 Speaker 2: work of angels. But Pertin, that's what you like talking about. 516 00:26:04,970 --> 00:26:06,930 Speaker 2: They also have a cultural problem. They're a way of 517 00:26:06,930 --> 00:26:09,050 Speaker 2: making war appears to be very different to the European 518 00:26:09,210 --> 00:26:11,810 Speaker 2: way of making war, and that is essential for the 519 00:26:11,810 --> 00:26:12,690 Speaker 2: story that comes next. 520 00:26:12,850 --> 00:26:17,050 Speaker 1: Yes, so Atahoulpa, the ruler of the Inca Empire, he 521 00:26:17,090 --> 00:26:21,290 Speaker 1: decides he's going to meet Pizarro. And I love the 522 00:26:21,290 --> 00:26:23,690 Speaker 1: way that you told the story in your podcast of 523 00:26:23,890 --> 00:26:27,010 Speaker 1: Adahopah showing up with his bodyguards and with his vast 524 00:26:27,170 --> 00:26:29,730 Speaker 1: army and with his enormous display of wealth. Well, as 525 00:26:29,730 --> 00:26:31,770 Speaker 1: I said, with the French knights. It wasn't that he 526 00:26:32,050 --> 00:26:34,090 Speaker 1: came up with the wrong answer. It's that there were 527 00:26:34,130 --> 00:26:37,930 Speaker 1: certain questions that he didn't even ask about what Bizarro 528 00:26:38,090 --> 00:26:39,650 Speaker 1: might do. So what did Bizarro? 529 00:26:39,730 --> 00:26:42,090 Speaker 2: It didn't occur to him. His own subjects were not 530 00:26:42,330 --> 00:26:43,770 Speaker 2: allowed to look him in the eye. He was the 531 00:26:43,850 --> 00:26:48,530 Speaker 2: ruler of a vast empire. He was a divine figure. Really, 532 00:26:48,530 --> 00:26:51,170 Speaker 2: it didn't occur to him that this ragged, sun burnt 533 00:26:51,290 --> 00:26:53,970 Speaker 2: joker with you know, a couple of hundred men behind 534 00:26:54,010 --> 00:26:56,610 Speaker 2: him would do something as audacious as what in fact 535 00:26:56,610 --> 00:26:59,450 Speaker 2: Pizarro does. You're meant to have a parley, there's meant 536 00:26:59,450 --> 00:27:01,090 Speaker 2: to be a discussion, a meeting, a sort of a 537 00:27:01,130 --> 00:27:04,730 Speaker 2: diplomatic moment, and bizarre just breaks all the rules. And 538 00:27:04,810 --> 00:27:07,690 Speaker 2: as Atowelpa and as Bizarro was sort of about to 539 00:27:07,730 --> 00:27:10,970 Speaker 2: meet in this town square, Bizarro's secreted away all his 540 00:27:11,050 --> 00:27:14,690 Speaker 2: horses and men and they all jump out, ambush, terrified. 541 00:27:14,690 --> 00:27:16,890 Speaker 2: If you've never seen for horses for US fourt against horses, 542 00:27:16,890 --> 00:27:18,130 Speaker 2: gunpowder weapons. 543 00:27:17,730 --> 00:27:18,970 Speaker 1: So terrifying. 544 00:27:18,970 --> 00:27:22,330 Speaker 2: Anyway, my kids love riding them and they scare me 545 00:27:22,410 --> 00:27:25,210 Speaker 2: to death. So yeah, you know, terrifying war horses charging 546 00:27:25,210 --> 00:27:27,810 Speaker 2: through these narrow streets, and there is this moment of 547 00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:32,210 Speaker 2: extraordinary chaos, and in that there is opportunity, and Pizarro 548 00:27:32,450 --> 00:27:38,130 Speaker 2: physically grabs the suppa Inca, grabs Atwhelpa, slaughters his men. 549 00:27:38,930 --> 00:27:44,170 Speaker 2: He's decapitated this mighty empire, like the Northern Barbarians seizing 550 00:27:44,170 --> 00:27:47,090 Speaker 2: the Emperor Augustus upon landing in Rome and holding into 551 00:27:47,170 --> 00:27:48,210 Speaker 2: ransom for the way. 552 00:27:48,130 --> 00:27:50,450 Speaker 1: I feel that if that happened to the Romans, yes, 553 00:27:50,530 --> 00:27:53,010 Speaker 1: the emperor was taking prisoners, somebody else would be in charge, 554 00:27:53,010 --> 00:27:55,250 Speaker 1: and the problem, perhaps because of the civil war, or 555 00:27:55,250 --> 00:27:59,130 Speaker 1: perhaps because such an occurrence has never struck them as possible. 556 00:27:59,410 --> 00:28:02,010 Speaker 1: There's no chain of command. It's not clear who's now 557 00:28:02,010 --> 00:28:05,210 Speaker 1: in charge, a little bit like Stalin's approach to government. 558 00:28:05,290 --> 00:28:08,650 Speaker 1: The power is concentrated remarkably in this one person in 559 00:28:08,690 --> 00:28:10,690 Speaker 1: this and is now a hostage if this one person, 560 00:28:11,930 --> 00:28:14,690 Speaker 1: and it fragments the empire. So some of these northern 561 00:28:14,690 --> 00:28:17,810 Speaker 1: groups take the opportunity to establish a bit more autonomy, 562 00:28:17,810 --> 00:28:19,850 Speaker 1: a bit more independence than they can adjoin Bizarro and 563 00:28:19,890 --> 00:28:22,090 Speaker 1: so yeah, we didn't like the incre anyway, and some 564 00:28:22,850 --> 00:28:25,770 Speaker 1: notables within the empire kind of go over to Bizaro, thinking, oh, well, 565 00:28:25,770 --> 00:28:28,650 Speaker 1: I can use these Spanish classic Miami's enemies, my friend. 566 00:28:29,010 --> 00:28:33,210 Speaker 1: They don't understand the existential threat that Pizarro represents because 567 00:28:33,210 --> 00:28:36,410 Speaker 1: they think it's just it's just one hundred and eighty guys. Guys, 568 00:28:36,690 --> 00:28:38,010 Speaker 1: we can get rid of them, event we can pay 569 00:28:38,050 --> 00:28:38,370 Speaker 1: them off. 570 00:28:38,610 --> 00:28:42,170 Speaker 2: They don't realize that there are just cities bursting with Europeans. 571 00:28:42,170 --> 00:28:44,250 Speaker 2: You know, the demographics is all wrong for this, and 572 00:28:44,490 --> 00:28:46,610 Speaker 2: they're able to transport across the Atlantic. They're able to 573 00:28:46,690 --> 00:28:48,530 Speaker 2: arrive in greater and greater numbers. You know, they're able 574 00:28:48,570 --> 00:28:52,810 Speaker 2: to supply gunpowder, weapons, horses, and a level required to 575 00:28:52,890 --> 00:28:54,810 Speaker 2: kind of topple the empire. The Inca and the peoples 576 00:28:54,810 --> 00:28:56,810 Speaker 2: of the Inca Empire can't get their heads around the 577 00:28:56,890 --> 00:28:57,890 Speaker 2: nature of this challenge. 578 00:28:58,050 --> 00:29:01,770 Speaker 1: Yes, we should talk about what happens to Atahoulpo himself, 579 00:29:01,810 --> 00:29:03,050 Speaker 1: which is rather sad. 580 00:29:03,370 --> 00:29:05,810 Speaker 2: Well, it's very sad, and he realizes that the Spanish 581 00:29:05,850 --> 00:29:07,810 Speaker 2: are obsessed with gold, and gold doesn't really have a 582 00:29:07,850 --> 00:29:11,130 Speaker 2: monetary value. In the Inca Empire, gold is a sort 583 00:29:11,170 --> 00:29:15,490 Speaker 2: of sacred material. It's a symbolic representation of the Sun 584 00:29:16,290 --> 00:29:19,810 Speaker 2: of divinity and Krikansha. In Cusca, the Inca capital, it's 585 00:29:19,850 --> 00:29:22,010 Speaker 2: the Temple of Gold. The walls were so coated with gold, 586 00:29:22,010 --> 00:29:24,050 Speaker 2: and there was lots of golden ornamentation in it, and 587 00:29:24,090 --> 00:29:26,410 Speaker 2: he offers it all to the Spanish and he says, 588 00:29:26,490 --> 00:29:28,690 Speaker 2: if I fill this room full of gold, will you 589 00:29:28,770 --> 00:29:31,010 Speaker 2: let me go? And it's estimated to be sort of 590 00:29:31,050 --> 00:29:33,530 Speaker 2: three hundred million dollars or something in today's money, but 591 00:29:33,610 --> 00:29:35,810 Speaker 2: it's a vast amount of gold and silver from around 592 00:29:35,850 --> 00:29:38,490 Speaker 2: the empire. He says, yeah, deal, He says deal, of course, 593 00:29:38,490 --> 00:29:40,530 Speaker 2: there's yeah, deal mate, Yeah, brilliant ive knows fault. Well, 594 00:29:40,530 --> 00:29:43,770 Speaker 2: he can't release the Inca emperor. Overnight, you know, Bizarro 595 00:29:43,850 --> 00:29:45,770 Speaker 2: becomes one of the richest men in the world. And 596 00:29:46,010 --> 00:29:48,850 Speaker 2: again they misunderstand that in the Inca world, lots of 597 00:29:48,890 --> 00:29:52,530 Speaker 2: warfare and lots of conflict is about capture and about 598 00:29:52,530 --> 00:29:55,490 Speaker 2: the obligations of the captor and the captured and giving 599 00:29:55,530 --> 00:29:58,610 Speaker 2: your word. And then the Inca would often expand their empire. 600 00:29:58,610 --> 00:30:01,250 Speaker 2: There was capture notables, the notables would swear allegiance and 601 00:30:01,290 --> 00:30:04,170 Speaker 2: there would be an exchange of kind of divine gifts 602 00:30:04,210 --> 00:30:06,650 Speaker 2: and things, and then the Inca would be happy for 603 00:30:06,690 --> 00:30:09,090 Speaker 2: that arrangement to exist. I mean, there was no sense 604 00:30:09,210 --> 00:30:12,730 Speaker 2: in which you needed to exterminate your enemy which is 605 00:30:12,730 --> 00:30:16,330 Speaker 2: what the Europeans are so good at and so as well. 606 00:30:16,610 --> 00:30:19,370 Speaker 2: Despite having given it a bizarre all this gold, he 607 00:30:19,770 --> 00:30:21,930 Speaker 2: is tried. He's put on trial for treason, you know 608 00:30:22,130 --> 00:30:24,890 Speaker 2: Spanish king, which are remarkable, and he's sentenced to being burnt. 609 00:30:25,370 --> 00:30:27,810 Speaker 2: He asked Bazara for mercy. He says, please don't burn me. 610 00:30:27,930 --> 00:30:31,130 Speaker 2: In the afterlife of the Inca require mummification take place. 611 00:30:31,330 --> 00:30:34,090 Speaker 2: Bizara relent, says fine, He garrots him. Then he burns 612 00:30:34,090 --> 00:30:34,770 Speaker 2: the cops. 613 00:30:34,530 --> 00:30:38,330 Speaker 1: Anyway, just in case there was any doubt that Bizarro 614 00:30:38,490 --> 00:30:39,410 Speaker 1: was not a nice man. 615 00:30:39,810 --> 00:30:44,050 Speaker 2: No, he terrible, the horrible person in many ways, very 616 00:30:44,090 --> 00:30:48,690 Speaker 2: effective unfortunately this example. But in fifteen thirty three there's 617 00:30:48,730 --> 00:30:50,210 Speaker 2: this moment. Actually a lot of people think that was 618 00:30:50,250 --> 00:30:52,450 Speaker 2: the great moment and it was all Spanish conquered after that. 619 00:30:52,530 --> 00:30:55,570 Speaker 2: But in fifteen thirty three there's a really interesting moment 620 00:30:55,610 --> 00:30:57,730 Speaker 2: that with Bazarro moves south with these indigenous allies. At 621 00:30:57,770 --> 00:30:59,490 Speaker 2: this point people who see advantage to the end of 622 00:30:59,490 --> 00:31:03,250 Speaker 2: the Inca, and they capture Cusco, the Inca capital, and 623 00:31:03,290 --> 00:31:06,890 Speaker 2: then fascinatingly, there is a battle that the Inca do 624 00:31:07,010 --> 00:31:09,530 Speaker 2: seem to get their heads around what's happening. Here and 625 00:31:09,570 --> 00:31:14,170 Speaker 2: despite succession, crisis, disease, fragmenting of their empire, they do 626 00:31:14,690 --> 00:31:16,410 Speaker 2: assemble a huge force. 627 00:31:17,530 --> 00:31:20,170 Speaker 1: Let's pause this conversation with Dan Snow for a moment. 628 00:31:20,450 --> 00:31:22,930 Speaker 1: Cautionary tales will be back after the break. 629 00:31:31,570 --> 00:31:34,410 Speaker 2: People focus traditionally on bizarre season out to Alper, but 630 00:31:34,450 --> 00:31:36,890 Speaker 2: I think this is really the most exciting and interesting moment, 631 00:31:36,930 --> 00:31:39,730 Speaker 2: and it's this battle for Cusco, and it's still a 632 00:31:39,810 --> 00:31:43,250 Speaker 2: very small number of Europeans. They've got indigenous allies, they've 633 00:31:43,250 --> 00:31:45,770 Speaker 2: got horses and guns, but importantly, if you again for 634 00:31:45,810 --> 00:31:48,490 Speaker 2: your listeners, they've got a culture of warfare that is 635 00:31:48,530 --> 00:31:51,450 Speaker 2: just fundamentally different. And I'm minded also of the Comanche 636 00:31:51,890 --> 00:31:54,370 Speaker 2: in North America. You think about moments in North America, 637 00:31:54,450 --> 00:32:00,130 Speaker 2: Indigenous Americans, they enjoy spectacular success over British Spanish colonial forces. 638 00:32:00,410 --> 00:32:03,210 Speaker 2: They kind of enjoyed their success own the battlefield, take 639 00:32:03,290 --> 00:32:05,210 Speaker 2: home some slaves, and go and celebrate and all disperse 640 00:32:05,250 --> 00:32:08,570 Speaker 2: their communities. What they don't do is what modern proto 641 00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:11,690 Speaker 2: industrial European armies are capable of doing, which is immediately 642 00:32:11,730 --> 00:32:13,690 Speaker 2: marched where the center of gravity of your enemy is 643 00:32:13,730 --> 00:32:17,890 Speaker 2: and slaughter everybody, and so their fields with salt you know, 644 00:32:18,050 --> 00:32:20,410 Speaker 2: we've won a big battle. We've won this battle on 645 00:32:20,410 --> 00:32:22,690 Speaker 2: the Monongehala River. We've won this battle here, just celebrate. 646 00:32:22,690 --> 00:32:25,970 Speaker 2: It's great. And yet Europeans they come back again and 647 00:32:26,010 --> 00:32:28,890 Speaker 2: again and again and again. And unless you kind of 648 00:32:29,250 --> 00:32:32,370 Speaker 2: march on Albany, murder everyone there and then march on 649 00:32:32,490 --> 00:32:35,130 Speaker 2: New York, and you cannot drive the English out of 650 00:32:35,130 --> 00:32:36,330 Speaker 2: New England, for example. 651 00:32:36,170 --> 00:32:36,530 Speaker 1: And New York. 652 00:32:36,810 --> 00:32:39,930 Speaker 2: So in the same way here, the Inca do get 653 00:32:39,970 --> 00:32:41,690 Speaker 2: to the point they build up this big army, but 654 00:32:41,730 --> 00:32:44,010 Speaker 2: then to our eyes they're just very, very poor, and 655 00:32:44,050 --> 00:32:45,770 Speaker 2: they're use to it. What they need to do it 656 00:32:45,890 --> 00:32:49,610 Speaker 2: just get into Cusco and attack Pizarro and his band 657 00:32:49,690 --> 00:32:51,570 Speaker 2: of Ruffians until they are all dead. 658 00:32:51,650 --> 00:32:53,610 Speaker 1: Because it's thousands and thousands. 659 00:32:53,410 --> 00:32:55,090 Speaker 2: Hundreds, we think it's one hundred thousands. 660 00:32:54,730 --> 00:32:56,890 Speaker 1: One hundred thousand against a few hundred, a few hundred. 661 00:32:56,970 --> 00:32:59,170 Speaker 2: They have got indigenous allies and they are important, but 662 00:32:59,610 --> 00:33:01,130 Speaker 2: in terms of the Europeans, we think it's just a 663 00:33:01,130 --> 00:33:03,530 Speaker 2: few hundred still. But again there's no sense of the 664 00:33:03,690 --> 00:33:06,530 Speaker 2: magnitude of what is about to happen to them. If 665 00:33:06,530 --> 00:33:08,850 Speaker 2: Europeans gain a toe hold in this part of them. 666 00:33:09,530 --> 00:33:14,090 Speaker 2: There are ships of reinforcements and priests and engineers and 667 00:33:14,130 --> 00:33:16,210 Speaker 2: soldiers and settlers who are about to arrive. 668 00:33:16,210 --> 00:33:18,970 Speaker 1: Rather than so rather than charging into Crisco and going 669 00:33:19,130 --> 00:33:22,050 Speaker 1: house to house. Yeah, well i'm sounding about the blood 670 00:33:22,090 --> 00:33:25,570 Speaker 1: first here. You know. That's that's what the Europeans would 671 00:33:25,570 --> 00:33:27,370 Speaker 1: have done if the tables were turned. They don't do that. 672 00:33:27,530 --> 00:33:28,730 Speaker 2: They do that, they spend They spend a lot of 673 00:33:28,770 --> 00:33:32,130 Speaker 2: time in religious observances. They know a hopeless situation when 674 00:33:32,170 --> 00:33:33,970 Speaker 2: they see what they think they do and expects bizarre 675 00:33:34,050 --> 00:33:35,730 Speaker 2: to come out and say, alright, yeah, you're right, lads, 676 00:33:35,890 --> 00:33:38,050 Speaker 2: I submit to you. We're going to go through a 677 00:33:38,130 --> 00:33:40,890 Speaker 2: kind of formal process of submission, and that's going to 678 00:33:40,970 --> 00:33:43,970 Speaker 2: confer obligations on me. This is how they would traditionally 679 00:33:43,970 --> 00:33:46,170 Speaker 2: do things. They don't realize that Bizarro is going to 680 00:33:46,210 --> 00:33:48,890 Speaker 2: fight the last man and the last bullet, and then 681 00:33:48,930 --> 00:33:50,450 Speaker 2: he's going to counter attack them, and then when they 682 00:33:50,530 --> 00:33:52,210 Speaker 2: knock him down, he's going to get up and fight again. 683 00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:54,650 Speaker 2: That's just not what they're expecting. But by this stage, 684 00:33:54,650 --> 00:33:59,570 Speaker 2: in fact, so when February fifteen thirty six and Pizarro 685 00:33:59,690 --> 00:34:02,810 Speaker 2: Francisco bar He's left it to his brothers, Hernando Gonzale 686 00:34:02,850 --> 00:34:06,570 Speaker 2: and Juan, so they're in charge of the defense of Cosco. 687 00:34:06,690 --> 00:34:08,450 Speaker 2: There is an attack into Cusco and there is some 688 00:34:08,570 --> 00:34:12,890 Speaker 2: house to house fighting. Their army's massive. European observer said 689 00:34:12,890 --> 00:34:15,410 Speaker 2: it was like a carpet of black on the hills 690 00:34:15,410 --> 00:34:17,170 Speaker 2: around Cusco during the day, and at night it's like 691 00:34:17,210 --> 00:34:20,410 Speaker 2: a starry sky from all the campfires. They enjoy enormous advantages, 692 00:34:20,530 --> 00:34:23,530 Speaker 2: but then critically the Inca, they've wasted time, and it 693 00:34:23,530 --> 00:34:25,690 Speaker 2: means that the Bazzar's brother Quan is able to use 694 00:34:25,730 --> 00:34:29,770 Speaker 2: that time. He's able to launch this extraordinary counter attack. 695 00:34:29,810 --> 00:34:32,930 Speaker 2: You never do this if you're wildly outnumbered in a 696 00:34:33,010 --> 00:34:35,930 Speaker 2: terrible position. The Ink would never expect this. He launches 697 00:34:35,970 --> 00:34:39,170 Speaker 2: his cavalry. They break out. So the Inker goes the 698 00:34:39,170 --> 00:34:41,770 Speaker 2: cavalry of all treat that they've disappeared, but he circles 699 00:34:41,810 --> 00:34:43,930 Speaker 2: them around and they attack the Spanish citadel on the 700 00:34:44,010 --> 00:34:50,490 Speaker 2: hilltop above Cousco. This beautiful, stunning hilltop, giant walls, hugely 701 00:34:50,530 --> 00:34:54,410 Speaker 2: powerful position, and the Spanish, to the absolute consternation of 702 00:34:54,450 --> 00:34:56,530 Speaker 2: the Inca, like launched an attack on this strong point. 703 00:34:57,130 --> 00:34:59,930 Speaker 2: Not unlike blitzkrieg that you've mentioned earlier. The Spanish are 704 00:35:00,010 --> 00:35:02,610 Speaker 2: very good at identifying the center of gravity, the kind 705 00:35:02,610 --> 00:35:05,090 Speaker 2: of cerebral cortex of the enemy, and just trying to 706 00:35:05,210 --> 00:35:07,690 Speaker 2: kill it repeatedly. And the incur have just got no 707 00:35:07,970 --> 00:35:10,010 Speaker 2: way of comprehending this, no way of dealing with it. 708 00:35:10,090 --> 00:35:12,210 Speaker 2: And the Spanish I have these technological advantages as well. 709 00:35:12,210 --> 00:35:15,210 Speaker 2: And so there's this huge battle that takes place in 710 00:35:15,210 --> 00:35:18,210 Speaker 2: the hills above Cusco, and Juan Bazar at this point 711 00:35:18,290 --> 00:35:21,610 Speaker 2: is mortally wounded, yes, smashed in the head with a 712 00:35:21,690 --> 00:35:25,330 Speaker 2: stone from a slinger. But the Spanish achieve enough of 713 00:35:25,330 --> 00:35:27,330 Speaker 2: a victory for the Inca to kind of withdraw and 714 00:35:27,370 --> 00:35:30,090 Speaker 2: think again, sometimes you don't know you're in an exponential fight, 715 00:35:30,130 --> 00:35:31,690 Speaker 2: and if you if you knew you're in one, you 716 00:35:31,690 --> 00:35:33,370 Speaker 2: would you would act a bit differently. So the inc 717 00:35:33,410 --> 00:35:35,410 Speaker 2: instead they kind of withdraw and think about how they're 718 00:35:35,410 --> 00:35:37,890 Speaker 2: going to do it. But by withdrawing it helped further 719 00:35:37,930 --> 00:35:42,050 Speaker 2: fragments their coalition. It further encourages the Spanish and their 720 00:35:42,050 --> 00:35:45,890 Speaker 2: indigenous allies. You're seeding the battlefield to the Spanish, and 721 00:35:45,930 --> 00:35:47,650 Speaker 2: of course what they should do. We just throw every 722 00:35:47,770 --> 00:35:51,570 Speaker 2: last man, every last stone, every last weapon club at 723 00:35:51,570 --> 00:35:52,690 Speaker 2: the Spanish. But they don't do that. 724 00:35:53,170 --> 00:35:55,970 Speaker 1: Culture, I think is fascinating. We don't know what. We 725 00:35:56,010 --> 00:35:59,530 Speaker 1: don't know. We don't discuss what it never occurred to 726 00:35:59,570 --> 00:36:02,370 Speaker 1: us to discuss. In the cautioning tale about the Battle 727 00:36:02,410 --> 00:36:06,210 Speaker 1: of Cressy, I reflected on my own profession, journalism, and 728 00:36:06,250 --> 00:36:09,050 Speaker 1: I saw a wonderful talk I thought it was wonderful 729 00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:11,810 Speaker 1: time by the editor in chief of the Washington Post, 730 00:36:11,890 --> 00:36:15,690 Speaker 1: Marty Barron, who great, great figure in journalism. This is 731 00:36:15,730 --> 00:36:18,010 Speaker 1: a few years ago, and he was reflecting on the 732 00:36:18,010 --> 00:36:21,130 Speaker 1: fact that Trump was portraying the media as the enemies 733 00:36:21,170 --> 00:36:24,930 Speaker 1: of the people, that the newspaper's business model was in 734 00:36:25,010 --> 00:36:29,290 Speaker 1: absolute crisis because of social media and Craigslist, so that 735 00:36:29,370 --> 00:36:32,130 Speaker 1: they were losing money. Many of the American people just 736 00:36:32,170 --> 00:36:35,410 Speaker 1: thought that newspapers such as the Washington Posts were fake news. 737 00:36:35,690 --> 00:36:38,450 Speaker 1: So nobody believes them. They're the enemies of the government, 738 00:36:38,570 --> 00:36:40,010 Speaker 1: and they're losing a massive amount of money. 739 00:36:40,010 --> 00:36:40,810 Speaker 2: Brilliant diagnosis. 740 00:36:40,850 --> 00:36:43,850 Speaker 1: It is brilliant diagnosis. What do we do? And Marty 741 00:36:43,890 --> 00:36:46,530 Speaker 1: Baron said, we need to do our job back to basics. 742 00:36:46,530 --> 00:36:49,290 Speaker 1: He cited the Washington Post principles from the nineteen thirties, 743 00:36:49,570 --> 00:36:52,210 Speaker 1: and at the time I thought, yes, stand up for 744 00:36:52,210 --> 00:36:55,890 Speaker 1: traditional journalism. And it was only afterwards I thought, this 745 00:36:56,050 --> 00:36:58,850 Speaker 1: is like the INCA, this is like the French Knights. 746 00:36:59,450 --> 00:37:02,170 Speaker 1: You are about to be wiped out. And what is 747 00:37:02,210 --> 00:37:05,730 Speaker 1: your response. Do exactly what we've been doing up till 748 00:37:05,770 --> 00:37:07,690 Speaker 1: now that has brought us to this moment of crisis. 749 00:37:07,730 --> 00:37:10,850 Speaker 1: Do it again. And so I think the important message 750 00:37:10,890 --> 00:37:13,770 Speaker 1: is it's not just about some medieval knights in armor. 751 00:37:14,010 --> 00:37:17,170 Speaker 1: It's not just about this amazing culture from South America 752 00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:20,490 Speaker 1: from centuries ago. It's about the way that we all 753 00:37:20,610 --> 00:37:22,810 Speaker 1: have our blind spots to do with the culture in 754 00:37:22,810 --> 00:37:23,530 Speaker 1: which we're raised. 755 00:37:23,930 --> 00:37:27,170 Speaker 2: Yes, I'm just really struck, and particularly as I get older, 756 00:37:27,210 --> 00:37:30,090 Speaker 2: I realized that the conservatism that can creep up on 757 00:37:30,130 --> 00:37:33,610 Speaker 2: you small sea, in middle and older age, and sometimes 758 00:37:34,170 --> 00:37:36,010 Speaker 2: in the face of a changing world. If you're a 759 00:37:36,010 --> 00:37:39,730 Speaker 2: World One general, if you are a German senior officer 760 00:37:39,730 --> 00:37:42,010 Speaker 2: in the Love Fatha during the Battle of Britain, if 761 00:37:42,010 --> 00:37:46,170 Speaker 2: you're a Japanese admiral, you have lived your whole life 762 00:37:46,330 --> 00:37:49,890 Speaker 2: living and breathing in an institution its value, absorbing its culture, 763 00:37:49,970 --> 00:37:55,330 Speaker 2: propagating its culture. That the idea of dismissing that, well, 764 00:37:55,330 --> 00:37:59,010 Speaker 2: it feels literally revolutionary and the extent to which people 765 00:37:59,010 --> 00:38:03,450 Speaker 2: would almost rather be defeated. They would almost rather die 766 00:38:04,090 --> 00:38:09,330 Speaker 2: on the battlefield than change. And it's easy to laugh 767 00:38:09,330 --> 00:38:11,290 Speaker 2: at that when you're a young history student, but the 768 00:38:11,330 --> 00:38:12,970 Speaker 2: older I get, the more I think, well, maybe that's 769 00:38:13,010 --> 00:38:13,570 Speaker 2: me as well. 770 00:38:15,090 --> 00:38:19,170 Speaker 1: I've been speaking to Dan Snow. Dan is the host 771 00:38:19,250 --> 00:38:22,490 Speaker 1: the creator of Dan Snow's History Hit. That is an 772 00:38:22,530 --> 00:38:25,610 Speaker 1: amazing show available wherever you get your podcast. Dan's recently 773 00:38:25,610 --> 00:38:29,690 Speaker 1: made a fantastic four part series on the INCA, which 774 00:38:29,690 --> 00:38:33,930 Speaker 1: you can find by searching Dan Snow's History Hit. Matthew Pitchew, 775 00:38:34,370 --> 00:38:36,370 Speaker 1: We'll be back again with another Cautionary Tales on our 776 00:38:36,370 --> 00:38:39,890 Speaker 1: regular schedule. Really, all that it falls to me to 777 00:38:39,890 --> 00:38:42,010 Speaker 1: say is Dan, thank you so much for joining us 778 00:38:42,010 --> 00:38:42,770 Speaker 1: in caution Me Tales. 779 00:38:42,890 --> 00:38:44,930 Speaker 2: I'm as a longtime fan. It's been a huge honor. 780 00:38:44,970 --> 00:38:45,730 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. 781 00:38:48,570 --> 00:38:50,850 Speaker 1: For a full list of our sources, please see the 782 00:38:50,850 --> 00:38:56,370 Speaker 1: show notes at Timharford dot com. Cautionary Tales is written 783 00:38:56,410 --> 00:38:59,650 Speaker 1: by me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. It's produced by 784 00:38:59,650 --> 00:39:03,490 Speaker 1: Alice Fines with support from Marilyn Rust. The sound design 785 00:39:03,610 --> 00:39:07,370 Speaker 1: and original music is the work of Pascal Wise. Sarah 786 00:39:07,490 --> 00:39:11,010 Speaker 1: Nix edited the scripts. It features the voice talents of 787 00:39:11,090 --> 00:39:15,970 Speaker 1: Ben Crowe, Melanie Gushridge, Stella Harford, Jammas Saunders and rufus Wright. 788 00:39:16,730 --> 00:39:19,610 Speaker 1: The show also wouldn't have been possible without the work 789 00:39:19,690 --> 00:39:25,170 Speaker 1: of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan Dilly, Greta Cohne, Vitel Millard, John Schnaz, 790 00:39:25,570 --> 00:39:30,530 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody and Christina Sullivan. Cautionary Tales is 791 00:39:30,530 --> 00:39:35,290 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded at Wardoor Studios 792 00:39:35,370 --> 00:39:38,610 Speaker 1: in London by Tom Berry. If you like the show, 793 00:39:39,050 --> 00:39:43,570 Speaker 1: Lee's remember to share, rate and review, tell your friends, 794 00:39:44,090 --> 00:39:46,010 Speaker 1: and if you want to hear the show ad free, 795 00:39:46,250 --> 00:39:49,290 Speaker 1: sign up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in 796 00:39:49,410 --> 00:40:21,850 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot Fm, slash Plus, inticlyty