1 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know 3 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: probably because it's uncomfortable to know. If you can die 5 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: before you die, then you can really live. There's a 6 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: wisdom at death's door. I thought I was insane. Yeah, 7 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: and I didn't know what to do because there was 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: no Internet. I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: like everything is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. 10 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: I'm a human first and a licensed therapist second. And 11 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: right now I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope 12 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: encourage you to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: and the world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy. Okay, 14 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: we have a new Monday episode of You Need Therapy podcast. 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: I'm Kat. If you are new here, I am a therapist, 16 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: and at the beginning of every episode, I like to 17 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: remind everybody that, although that is what I do, this 18 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: podcast does not serve as a replacement or a substitute 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: for actual mental health services. But I still hope it 20 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: helps in some way wherever you are So today we're 21 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: back with the third part of our four part series 22 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: on John Gottman's four Horsemen. If you are like, what 23 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: is that, I highly recommend you going back a couple 24 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: weeks to the first episode we did on criticism and 25 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: then the next episode we did on contempt, and listening 26 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: to those first before you carry on with this episode. 27 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: But I'm at the boss of you, so if you 28 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: just want to listen to this one and then go back, 29 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: that's also cool. This week we're going to talk about defensiveness, 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: and before we get into that, I do want to 31 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: do a little recap. So, like I said, we did 32 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: criticism and contempt. Criticism is an attack on your partner's character, 33 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: and we also looked at the antidote, so what do 34 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: we do to move away from that kind of conflict management? 35 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 1: And the antidote for criticism is gentile startup. And then 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: the second horseman, like I said, is contempt, which is 37 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: a way to belittle somebody, specifically your partner in these conversations. 38 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: And the antidote for that is building a culture of 39 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: appreciation and respect. And now it's time to get to 40 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: the third horseman, defensiveness. So defensiveness is defined as self 41 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: protection in the form of righteousness or proclaiming victimhood in 42 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,679 Speaker 1: an attempt to avoid a perceived attack on oneself. Now, 43 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: many people become defensive when they're being criticized. The problem 44 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 1: with doing that is that being defensive never really ends 45 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: up being very successful. It often escalates the problem and 46 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: brings up new ones and the perceived criticism is an 47 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: actually always real criticism. But before we all start getting 48 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: defensive about being defensive, because some of people might be thinking, well, 49 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: I don't do that, or I was justified when I 50 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: was defensive, I think it's important to just acknowledge and 51 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: admit that we've all been here before. It is a 52 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: natural human reaction at times when we feel threatened. Not 53 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: very helpful, but still it can feel very normal and 54 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: it can feel very appropriate in the moment. So I 55 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: just want to throw it out there. We all do this. 56 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: I do this. I'm going to give you examples of 57 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: how I do this in my own current relationship. We 58 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: are not criticizing anybody right now for doing this at 59 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: any point in their life. We just want to talk 60 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: about it so we can look at better ways to 61 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: actually get our needs met. So becoming defensive is a 62 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: way to protect our ego. It pops up when our 63 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: sense of self feels like it's being attacked, even if 64 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: it's not, and in relational conflict, it often becomes present 65 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: as a response to a moment in time where we 66 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: feel like we're being unfairly accused of something. We might 67 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: be accused of something that feels unfair and we don't 68 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: notice it all the time consciously, but when we end 69 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: up becoming defensive, we often take the role of a 70 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: victim when we're not a victim, and we do a 71 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: lot of blaming, turning the tables, a lot of stuff 72 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: that as you're listening, you're probably like, well, that doesn't 73 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: sound very helpful. Also, I want to acknowledge that sometimes 74 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: we are, like you, literally are unjustly accused of something. 75 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: And I don't want to send the message that when 76 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: we're accused of something, it's always not true. Sometimes it 77 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: is not fair the things that people are saying to us, 78 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: or think people are getting things wrong. What message I 79 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: want to send is that by pushing blame on somebody else, 80 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: that's not solving the problem. So, yes, we can be 81 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: unjustly accused of something, but flipping the blame might not 82 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: be the road that we need to take to actually 83 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: get whatever need is needing to be met in that moment, 84 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: and just yelling it's not my fault it doesn't really 85 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: help that either. Like I said, defensiveness often just escalates 86 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: the perceived attack rather than de escalating it. And we 87 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: know we're all about de escalating some of the tension 88 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: in relationships. We want to move from a escalated point 89 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: and kind of work our way down. And in the 90 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: other episodes we talked about how all of this is 91 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: not about how do we get conflict out of your relationship? No, 92 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, we need conflict. It actually can be 93 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: very helpful. However, what we need to work on is 94 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: how we can manage it better. So how can we 95 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: take this escalated event and de escalate in a way 96 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: that brings us closer together versus defies us further apart 97 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: Because a lot of times when we do end up 98 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: being defensive, what we do is we send the message 99 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: to the other person that we don't care. We might 100 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: invalidate their problems or their concerns. They end up feeling 101 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: attacked and very misunderstood. That's just no boy, no. When 102 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: we're trying to de escalate. Now in our current climate, 103 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: there is a lot of defensiveness popping up all around us, 104 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: and I'm going to give relational examples, but in this moment, 105 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 1: really taking into account specifically what happened last week in 106 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: Nashville with the school shootings, I thought it might be 107 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: helpful to talk about how this is showing up politically 108 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: and culturally as well in our social circles, because it's 109 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: not great. And I've talked before on here about the 110 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: trouble with these two polar opposite parties who both think 111 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: that they're all right and the other one it's all wrong. 112 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: And it was actually Sean A. Niquest who first brought 113 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: up how this black and white way of thinking is 114 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: tearing people and communities apart. And in the aftermath of 115 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: what happened in Nashville last week, which I assume everybody knows, 116 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: there was a school shooting that old three nine year 117 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: olds and then three people that worked at this school 118 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: and traumatized hundreds of people, if not thousands, living in 119 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: this area. And it's again another event that builds on 120 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: the hundreds of other events that are happening in our country. 121 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: And since then, specifically, I've been seeing this more because 122 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: I live in natural and so I'm seeing more conversations 123 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: with people in my community and stuff like that. But 124 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: I've seen an uproar in defensiveness, criticism, and contempt all 125 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: of them, and it is very overwhelming, and it also 126 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: causes an extreme delay in any kind of helpful action. 127 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: People on either side of the argument around specifically gun 128 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: control and gun laws are consistently consistently showing up very defensive, 129 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: and sometimes to me, it feels like we're playing ping 130 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: pong into like the abyss. We're like actually just like 131 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: losing the ball, and then we're starting over and we're 132 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: playing ping pong and we're losing the ball again, but 133 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: like nobody's winning, nobody's losing it, just we're stuck here. 134 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: And trust me, I get the defensiveness. I totally get it. 135 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: People are scared, people are terrified. On both sides. However, 136 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: we're dividing ourselves deeper and deeper and deeper versus coming 137 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: together and making positive impact because I imagine we all 138 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: want to feel safer in our communities. Now, when someone 139 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: states something about gun laws, the immediate reaction can often 140 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 1: look like this. Guns don't kill people. People kill people, 141 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: and we have a mental health crisis on our hands. 142 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 1: And they are immediately washing guns of any responsibility as 143 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: if they don't play a role in the situation at all, 144 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: and then turns the focus on something completely different. It 145 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: feels like a distraction, it feels like an avoidance, and 146 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: it's very invalidating of the initial comment or the initial 147 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: thing that somebody might have said or spoken about. You 148 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: don't have to completely agree with somebody to acknowledge reality. 149 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: You don't have to completely agree with somebody to acknowledge 150 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: your part in something or somebody's part in something. And 151 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: that's something I really want people to hear is by 152 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: not being defensive of what you're not doing, is just 153 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: blindly agreeing with what whatever people say. But we don't 154 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: have to create a senseless story that guns don't play 155 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: a role in the death of humans during mass shootings 156 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: to express that there are other things at play and 157 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: doing so isn't helping anybody, And it's not helping people 158 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 1: understand your side and how you feel. It's not helping 159 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: people change sides and start to agree with you. It 160 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: just is creating more rage, more frustration, more anger, out 161 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: of the deflection in the invalidation, Like it feels very 162 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: invalidated when you just push that aside and then move 163 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: to this other thing. And so people might be wondering, well, 164 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: what do people say if they don't agree, Well, you 165 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: could say, you know what, I want this to stop too. 166 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: I want to protect our children too. I want to 167 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: save human life, and I want to make human lives 168 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: a priority as well. Yes, our gun laws are making 169 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: these tragedies too easy to develop and to happen. I 170 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: also think our mental health crisis adds to the problem 171 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: as well. And so what are your thoughts on how 172 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: we can both work on both of these issues instead 173 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: of just focusing on one or the other. I mean, 174 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: guys could imagine if that's how we responded to people 175 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: that we said like, yes, I hear your concern with 176 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: innocent lives being taken, and I hear the reality of 177 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: how this is adding to the problem and playing a 178 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: role in this issue. I see this as well. How 179 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: can we both address these things? How can we both 180 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: get our needs met here? How can we stop looking 181 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: at one thing and pointing the blame at one item 182 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: and look at these things as a whole. What can 183 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: we do to work together. I mean, just imagine if 184 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: we hurt each other out, if we took responsibility to 185 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: facts and then we talked about a solution. It feels 186 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 1: silly to say, just imagine because it shouldn't be that easy. 187 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: And we can start doing this with people. We can 188 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: start doing this in our conversations with our friends, their family, 189 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: and then bring these into larger conversations with the community, 190 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: with the government. With all of that, and so I 191 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: know people might be thinking, oh, Catherine, you, why do 192 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: we have to talk about politics on here? Because this 193 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: isn't a solely political issue. This is an issue of humanity, 194 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: and it's an issue with how we respond to people 195 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: when we're scared, and when we feel like people aren't 196 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: hearing us, we get defensive when we try to make 197 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,719 Speaker 1: our issue louder. You know, there is room for more 198 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: than one person to talk. So I want to encourage that. 199 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: And it doesn't have to be I'm going to ignore 200 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: your issue because I want my issue to have attention. 201 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: I want to acknowledge that there are more than one 202 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: issues at play here, and I want us both to 203 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: have a chance to be heard. Imagine that. So I 204 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: said I'd give examples in relational conflict, and so we're 205 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: going to do that as well. And I can actually 206 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: give you an example of something that I did this week. 207 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: I was defensive with my now fiance Patrick about a 208 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: week ago I got engaged. I was very shocked, very surprised. 209 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: And since the night that we got engaged, Patrick has 210 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: been pushing me to get my ring insured. Literally he 211 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: put on my finger and I was like, okay, we 212 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: gotta get this insured, as you should. And so I 213 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: emailed my insurance agent on Monday morning, and he was 214 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: actually on vacation, said he would have a coworker take 215 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: care of it, and I didn't hear back from him. 216 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: And so Patrick said, forty five more times have you 217 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: done this? Have you done this? Have you done this? 218 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: He kept asking, and I think one day, I don't 219 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: know if it was ones Ara Thursday, he said, hey, 220 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: just I want to remind you to email them again 221 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: if you haven't heard back, and I think I replied, 222 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: I don't know, like verbade him what it was, but 223 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: something like I've been so busy and I already emailed 224 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: him once and I kind of snapped back at him. 225 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: And this is not an extreme example, but I did 226 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: want to give you like smaller examples too, because sometimes 227 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: we only look at this is in extreme and we 228 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: can do this in just daily life. And I realized 229 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: in that moment I felt a little attacked when he 230 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: was just actually reminding me to do something. He wasn't 231 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: attacking me, he wasn't criticizing me. He just was reminding 232 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: me about something that he was anxious about. And I 233 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: could have said, you know what, I totally forgot to 234 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: email him again, thank you for the reminder. I've been 235 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: really busy and it wasn't at the top of my brain. 236 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: And I also acknowledge that you have a lot of 237 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: anxiety about this, and I don't want to ignore that 238 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: it is an important thing to you, and so let 239 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: me write it down so then tomorrow I won't forget. 240 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: No fight, There's no reason to scream there. He wasn't 241 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: being mean, he wasn't calling me lazy, he wasn't doing 242 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: any of that. And so if I could have just 243 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: said that, he could have said, Wow, okay, I appreciate 244 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: you taking that seriously. It is important to me. If 245 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: you want, I can send you a reminder text tomorrow. 246 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: Now when we show up defensive, our in quotes excuses. Honestly, 247 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: you can tell our partner that we actually don't take 248 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: their concern seriously, like I wouldn't be taking I'm so busy. 249 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: It's as if Patrick's concern for this expensive item that 250 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: he bought doesn't matter, and it's stupid, and I have 251 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: better things to do, and I don't ever want to 252 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: send my partner that message. And so it's really important 253 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: to take responsibility for our part of the street. There 254 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: another thing I don't know why why I do know why. 255 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to use the example of eating popsicles because 256 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: that's something that I do often. I really like having 257 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: popschools in the fridge. And so imagine if I said 258 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: something to Patrick, like, hey, did you eat the last popsicle? 259 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: And he said, why does it matter? You never told 260 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: me those were just for you. What do we need 261 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: to start labeling our food? I mean, honestly, I'm the 262 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: one that does the grocery shopping. And you can see 263 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: here if this was my partner, if this is Patrick, 264 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: he would be which she would never do this or 265 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: he has not done this and can't say he would never. 266 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: But they don't only respond defensively, but they reverse the 267 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: blame like you never told me, an attempt to avoid 268 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: fault and also play this victim role of now I'm 269 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: a victim of you being mad at something. But you 270 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: can't be mad at something because I didn't know, and 271 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: it's your fault for not telling me this when I 272 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: was just wondering if he ate the popsicle? Doesn't mean 273 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: I was mad, doesn't mean I was upset. Nothing. So 274 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: instead a non defensive response where you could take some 275 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: responsibility for your part, which doesn't even mean that it's bad, 276 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: and also understand the perspective of the person could be yeah, 277 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: I did eat the last popsicle? Were you craving one too? 278 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: You know what, we can make sure to put an 279 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: extra box on the list this week because we do 280 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: both like to eat those boom. Sounds so simple, right Again, 281 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: It's funny because all of these things they sound very simple. 282 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: But when we have a fragile ego for whatever reason, 283 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: when we are protecting our self esteem, when we don't 284 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: want to be in trouble, if any of that stuff 285 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: feels a little wobbly, defensiveness is something that can pop 286 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: up really easily. Again, self protection, So what I think 287 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: is really important to wonder when we're showing up this way, 288 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: is what else is going on around me? Of the 289 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: bagel story? Right, I was so upset. It wasn't about 290 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: the bagel. There's a lot of other things going on 291 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: in that moment that led me to be upset and 292 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: to cry. And I know I'm overwhelmed with life. When 293 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm juggling a lot of tasks, I 294 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: can get defensive rather than asking for help and admit 295 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: that I've taken on too much. And what I want 296 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: people to know is it's okay to mess up. It's 297 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: okay to get things wrong, and it's okay to say, hey, 298 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: I need some help. And in a healthy relationship, the 299 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: reality of all of those things, messing up, getting things wrong, 300 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: and needing help is not going to threaten a relationship. 301 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: The threat if I need help, that a relationship is 302 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: going to be in danger does not exist in a 303 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: healthy relationship. And when you feel that way, when you 304 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: think that there is a threat in a healthy relationship 305 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: when you need help or when you got something wrong, 306 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: something else is happening in that moment, whether it's within 307 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: you or within that relationship. And I also think when 308 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: being defensive becomes part of our relationshi an all like cycle, 309 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: like conflict cycle, you can have something to do with 310 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: us the person that's being defensive really shoving things down 311 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: that you might want to say. So what am I 312 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: holding back? Because then it feels like this bubbled up 313 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: response when we just can't take it anymore. And if 314 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 1: we've been super resentful about something that a partner has 315 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: said or done throughout I don't know, days, weeks, months, years, 316 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: but then he points out in a healthy way something 317 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: that we've done, we can end up overreacting with a 318 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: laundry list of things like oh, yeah, well you did 319 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: this and this and this and this and this and 320 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: this and this, when really he's just like, hey, did 321 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: you switch the laundry or do I need to restart 322 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: the laundry again? So I kind of m getting ahead 323 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: of myself. But let's move in to the good part 324 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: of this podcast and or these episodes in this series. 325 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: The antidote. So, like I said, the goatman's have offered 326 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: us an antidote to each one of these horsemen to 327 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: help us get out of these unhealthy cycles in relational 328 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: conflict areas. So for criticism, like I said, it's the 329 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: gentle startup. For contempt, it's building a culture of appreciation 330 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: and respect. And now for defensiveness, it is instead of 331 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: victimizing yourself or reversing the blame, take responsibility, which I've 332 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: kind of been saying and alluding to throughout this super 333 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: simple take responsibility. When we are defensive, we are sending 334 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: the message it's not me, I'm not the problem, which 335 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: in turn shifts the blame towards the other person that 336 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: the conflict is with. And there is usually something that 337 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: we can take responsibility for, even if we didn't do 338 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: something malicious, or we didn't do this thing on purpose, 339 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: and even if we don't think it's a big deal, 340 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: there's usually something we can take responsibility for on our 341 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 1: side of the street. This doesn't mean you're accepting blame 342 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: for something you didn't do. You're accepting responsibility for what 343 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: you did do. And it doesn't have to be all 344 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: or nothing right. It doesn't have to be it's my 345 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: fault or your fault. This allows some wiggle room and 346 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: some gray area into the conversation. And owe what a 347 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: world we would live in if we could invite some 348 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: gray area into conversations. So here's an example, let's say 349 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: somebody is nervous about being late. So let's say somebody 350 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: says person one and the complex says, oh, we're gonna 351 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: be late. I wish we didn't have to get gas 352 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: on the way, And then the other person comes in 353 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,239 Speaker 1: with this defensiveness, Well, it's not my fault we're going 354 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: to be there late. You always wait till the last 355 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 1: second to get ready, And I would have gotten gas 356 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: before if I knew you would be running late in 357 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: the first place. Again, I mean, we've started a whole 358 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: fight on the way to maybe a really nice event 359 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: or dinner or anything. And what would happen if somebody said, oh, 360 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: we're gonna be late, I wish we didn't have to 361 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: get gas on the way, and then the person said back, 362 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: you know what, I hate being late too. I could 363 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: have made sure that there was gas in the tank earlier, 364 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: and next time I'm going to check with you on 365 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,239 Speaker 1: how you're doing on getting ready in case I need 366 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: to go out and get gas before it's time to go. 367 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: By taking responsibility for our PA part of the conflict 368 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: not checking the car to see if there need to 369 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,719 Speaker 1: be gas put in it, and not ignoring the partner's concern. Right, 370 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: you both don't want to be late. You're not saying 371 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: I don't care, You're saying I don't like this either. 372 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: We can both do better. We can work together on 373 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: this and you know, compromise, be a team. And because 374 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: I love a list, I think lists make things digestible 375 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 1: for people. I have a couple small tips to help 376 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: in times where defensiveness feels like the right way to 377 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: go or the way that I just want to jump 378 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: into naturally. So One, instead of looking at being right, 379 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 1: prioritize understanding your partner. So try to understand them versus 380 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: argue with them and get them to change their mind too. 381 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: If you notice that you want to defend yourself, acknowledge that, 382 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: Acknowledge that I want to defend myself, and maybe take 383 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: a break. Three, you can clarify what you hear before 384 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: you respond. Often we hear somebody attacking us when they're not. 385 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: And I've said that a couple times throughout this episode. 386 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: What would happen if you said, I hear you saying 387 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: it's my fault we're late. Am I getting that right? 388 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: Or I hear you saying that I'm lazy for not 389 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: calling the bank today, Is that what you said? So 390 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: then we can clarify what the person is really saying 391 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: and avoid these perceived attacks that aren't really attacks. And 392 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: your partner could say back, oh my gosh, no, I 393 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: know you've had a lot to do today, so I 394 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: was just checking in to see if you need a 395 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: reminder or No, I'm not calling you lazy. I just 396 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: noticed that. Like I keep thinking about this, I'm really 397 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: anxious and if it's something that you don't have time for, 398 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: I'm happy to do it. You are working together on 399 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: a team, and you're hearing each other and going back 400 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: to the first one, focusing on understanding each other versus 401 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: being right. The fourth thing you can do is focus 402 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: on understanding your partner that was the first one right 403 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: and owning our behavior. You can end a sentence with 404 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: I didn't do it, or oh I forgot again, or dang, 405 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: I hate being late too. You don't have to give 406 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: an excuse right out of the gate when you start 407 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: talking about it. More an excuse might not come up, 408 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: but you can in the understanding each other that might 409 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: show up, but are allowed to own your behavior and 410 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: put a period there. That really really feels so validating. 411 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: When our partners do that, and you can think of 412 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: examples when that's happened with you, when you've said, oh, 413 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: I mean just going off the late thing. Oh, I'm 414 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: so anxious. I hate being late. It feels so good 415 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: when I'm in that with my partner. My partner can say, yeah, 416 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: I hate being late too. Hopefully we can get some 417 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: minutes back on the drive instead of yeah, I hate 418 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: being late too, and you took too long to get ready. 419 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: That doesn't feel very good. And then the last thing 420 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: I want to offer as a little tip is allow 421 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: yourself to mess up, allow yourself to say I'm sorry, 422 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: and allow yourself to try again. So let's say this 423 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: goes to like, allow yourself to mess up, so you're 424 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: allowed to take responsibility for what you did and own 425 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: your behavior. But also in these moments, if you start 426 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: being defensive, allow yourself to mess up and say I'm sorry, 427 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: I need to try that again. I was being really defensive. 428 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: I can tell you guys, I do that all the 429 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: time because I do have this knee jerk reaction sometimes 430 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: to be like, oh, it was my fault or snap back, 431 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: and like I did with the situation with the insurance 432 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: with my ring. Often pretty soon after it happens, I say, oh, okay, 433 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: I'm sorry I was so snappy. You're right, I need 434 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: to do that, And then wow, he can have some 435 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: understanding from me and we can both be in it together. Beautiful. 436 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: So there, you guys have it. The third Horseman defensiveness. Remember, 437 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: these are things that we do not really want to 438 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: engage routinely in when we are having conflict. It doesn't 439 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: help actually manage the conflict well, and oftentimes just escalates 440 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: it and moves it to the next horseman, which we 441 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: really don't want to just walk through all these We 442 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: want to notice that we're in it and then kind 443 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: of find our way to walk out a different door. 444 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: So I hope this was helpful. I don't know if 445 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: you guys have been anticipating this episode because I took 446 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 1: a little break and did two other episodes in between 447 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: the other two. But I promised that we would get 448 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: back to it, and we did. So next week we're 449 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 1: going to round this out with the final horseman, stonewalling, 450 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 1: which is one that is very popular as well, even 451 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: if you don't know what stonewalling is. So there's a 452 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: little teaser keep you on your toes for next week's episode. 453 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: As always, you can email me with any questions, concerns, thoughts, 454 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: feedback Catherine at You Need Therapy Podcast dot com. We 455 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: do couch talks on Wednesday. That is where I answer 456 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: your questions that you send to me, and you can 457 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: send questions to that email Catherine at you Need Therapy 458 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: Podcast dot com. You can follow me at Kat dot 459 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: defata and at you Need Therapy Podcast. And I hope 460 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: you guys have the day you need to have. I'll 461 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: talk to you guys on Wednesday.