1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: Hi, it's Erica. This is the second part of a 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: special guest series for The Turning. If you missed part one, 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: I want to jump in and tell you about a 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: new book called The Swans of Harlem. Five Black Ballerinas, 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: fifty years of sisterhood and their reclamation of a groundbreaking history. 6 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: In it, writer Karen Balby records the largely forgotten histories 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: of five black ballerinas who changed the art form today. 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: In our second of the series, Karen speaks with former 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: ballerina Sila Rohan. 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: In every possible way. Sila Rohan was an unlikely ballerina. 11 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: As a child, she survived polio and the temporary loss 12 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 2: of her legs. Dance was essential to her healing and 13 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 2: to her life as an artist. When she first joined 14 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 2: the Dance Theater of Harlem, Sheila was a twenty seven 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: year old mother of three young children. She had long 16 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 2: since put away her point shoes. It was her sister, 17 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: Nannette Bearden, who saw the notice in the New York 18 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 2: Times that Arthur Mitchell was looking for black, classically trained dancers, 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: and she convinced her baby sister to make the trek 20 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 2: from Staten Island up to Harlem. Under the tutelage of Mitchell, 21 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 2: Sheila would travel the world, performing on the grandest of stages. 22 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 2: Now in her eighties, she continues to challenge expectations of 23 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 2: what a dancer looks like. Welcome Sheila, Hey, Karen, Sheila, 24 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 2: your journey to becoming a professional ballerina began in such 25 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 2: dramatic fashion. You were diagnosed with polio at seven years old. 26 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 2: Can you just tell me a little bit about being 27 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: in a house of seven sisters and losing control of 28 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: your legs? 29 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 3: Well, yes, I get you could imagine how traumatic it 30 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 3: was for my mother and my sisters. I'm even thinking 31 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 3: now that I was younger than seven. The polio epidemic 32 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 3: was already in the environment at that time. I remember 33 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 3: it started. I had a terrible headache. I had been ill, 34 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 3: like say a flu or a cold or something, so 35 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 3: I was at home. I remember I called out to 36 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 3: my sister to tell her that I had a pain 37 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 3: in my head. Then I really started feeling ill, and 38 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 3: of course they called a doctor. I don't remember going 39 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 3: to the hospital, but he diagnosed me. And I keep 40 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 3: the memory of when I overheard a conversation between my 41 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 3: mother and the doctor and he said you never know 42 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 3: how these things go. He said she could be crippled. 43 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 3: And when I heard that, I just was determined. 44 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 4: No. 45 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 3: I had decided in my little mind that that was 46 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 3: not going to happen. And I recommend that to everyone. 47 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,399 Speaker 3: And I said, no, I am not going to be crippled. 48 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 3: I think my body just took it from there. 49 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: And you do regain use of your legs. The braces 50 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 2: come yeah, and the doctor says to your mother, what. 51 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: I need exercise? He recommended exercise classes to build muscles. 52 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 4: In my legs. 53 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 3: And then the only exercise we knew or the dance studios. 54 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 3: I guess maybe nowadays I would take gymnastics or go 55 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 3: to the gym, but then it was danced. So we 56 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 3: found a studio, but it was a neighborhood school, ballet, 57 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 3: tap and contemporary. 58 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: Your mother was keeping food on the table for seven girls. 59 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: Was dance classes a luxury? Did she have the money 60 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: to pay for those classes? 61 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 3: My sister Nannett and also Evelyn, they were the two 62 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 3: oldest sisters and they were working. They were able to 63 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 3: scrape together the money. But then you know what was 64 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,799 Speaker 3: the five dollars? You know, back then we took forties 65 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 3: We took me that in nineteen forties and fifties. 66 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 4: But even so, you know, if you. 67 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 3: Only had twenty dollars, five dollars is a lot. So 68 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 3: but they managed, yes, and I went there for quite 69 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 3: a while. 70 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 2: Chila, you quickly outgrow your neighborhood Staten Island Studio, and 71 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: the teacher says you deserve better training. Your sister, Nanette, 72 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: who's married at this point to the famous artist RAMAYR. Bearden, 73 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: says she'll pay for you to take classes in Manhattan. 74 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: Can you talk about the support she showed you as 75 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: a young artist. 76 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 3: From the very beginning when we started making the trips 77 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 3: into Manhattan. And she was excited as I was. She 78 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 3: was very pleased because she loved dance herself. I think 79 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 3: she wanted to be a dancer. 80 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 4: You know. 81 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 3: She would buy my point shoes, my tights, and my 82 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 3: you know, my leotade and my little skirts. 83 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 2: And it's not just that she was sort of funding 84 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: your dance education. She was taking you to see the ballet. 85 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, wasn't she. 86 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, my first New York City ballet, Nutcracker, we went 87 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 3: to see. 88 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was wonderful. 89 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, what was that like? Sitting in the audience and 90 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 2: seeing professional ballet. 91 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it was like, how could I even think 92 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 3: about doing the ballet? Being on stage and looking like that? 93 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 3: What do I have to do to get there? 94 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 4: To attain this? Yeah? 95 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 2: Do you have a sense at this point in your 96 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,559 Speaker 2: training that there is a place for a young black 97 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 2: ballerina on a stage like that? 98 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 4: Not ballet? 99 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 3: I mean I've seen other dances, like on Broadway and 100 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 3: in other dance companies. Modern dance company like Martha Graham 101 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 3: always had black dancers, but not really for myself. I 102 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 3: think I didn't believe that I could attain the level 103 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 3: of excellence that has to be done, and then what 104 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 3: for Who's going to hire me? So I was doing 105 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 3: it much because the love of it at that time. 106 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 3: I wasn't thinking career. I know my sister Nanet was. 107 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 3: I see that later on. I see that she was 108 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 3: trying to build me up to get me to be 109 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 3: a dancer period, not just the ballerina. 110 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 2: What did you love about it? What about the art 111 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: form spoke to you? 112 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 3: The way that classical ballet creates and interprets movement. I 113 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 3: love the lines, the graceful arms, just the technique itself. 114 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 3: Trying to learn the purouettes and holding the arab esque, 115 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 3: and every day you were working towards something. Every day 116 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 3: you want to get your leg higher, you want to 117 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 3: get your muscles stronger, and later on you have to 118 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 3: learn to listen to the music. As you get older 119 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 3: and the training advances, you learn. Well, they did pour 120 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 3: the bra because of this. You put some meaning to it, 121 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 3: but it was just the challenge of learning and wanting 122 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 3: to express yourself with this technique. Are my toes? And 123 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 3: then they didn't end. Were you to soften up the shoe. 124 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 3: They just put your foot in there, laced them up 125 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 3: and expected the shoot to break in As you work. 126 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: Your education, your dance education is interrupted when you're eighteen 127 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: and you and your childhood sweetheart get pregnant and you 128 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: realize you're going to have your first child. How sad 129 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: were you to lose those saturdays in a studio. 130 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 3: Yes it was sad, but I was trying to accept it. 131 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 3: You know that happened, and now I'm doing this. 132 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: After your son. You have two daughters. You've largely hung 133 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 2: your point shoes up because of the demands of motherhood, 134 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 2: but you're still very much dancing and you're deep into 135 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: an art scene in Staten Island. Can you tell me 136 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 2: a little bit about that. 137 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 3: A group of us, always involved in the theater, dance, singers, musicians, 138 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 3: we came together and we barred, okay, we poor people artists. 139 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 3: You would bother my child will take dance class and 140 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: you would do the pottery. And we had that going on. 141 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 3: And so I met artists from all over all races black, White, Asian, Spanish, 142 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 3: and I guess it was the late fifties or so 143 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 3: sixties we created the Brothers and Sisters United, which was 144 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 3: our acknowledgement of the civil rights movement. You know, it 145 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 3: was a whole revolution to know you as blackness back 146 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 3: to Africa? Who are we and why are we here? 147 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 3: So Brothers and Sisters United, that's what that company was about. 148 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 4: And we were all young, you know. 149 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 3: We had a director and we had a choreographer, but 150 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 3: we all really didn't know what we were doing, but 151 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 3: we were doing it. Yeah, And we did one performance 152 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 3: at Lincoln Center. They used to put up this platform 153 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 3: around the fountain, and we managed to get a booking there, 154 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 3: so it was a big deal for us. And we 155 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 3: did our program which was about slavery. Was that kind 156 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 3: of a story of song and dance and music. Yeah, 157 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 3: it was a community endeavor. We didn't make any money. 158 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 3: We didn't have any money. You know, you went out 159 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 3: of pocket most of the time to do things. But 160 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 3: that's how we started. We also had, which was a 161 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 3: most spiritual endeavor, was the universal Temple of the arts. 162 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 3: And they were painters and musician writers. So we also 163 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 3: would just gather together to try to find out who 164 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 3: am I. It was that sixties, you know, who am I? 165 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 3: Where are we? Where are we going? You know that 166 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 3: type of thing. 167 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: Those are the great questions posed by. 168 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 3: Art, and it was a wonderful time. It was a 169 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 3: wonderful time. It was some awakenings at that time. 170 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're deeply part of this local arts scene. You're 171 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: a twenty seven year old mother of three, a very 172 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: full life. And Nanette calls like she always does, and 173 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 2: she tells you about a man named Arthur Mitchell auditioning dancers. 174 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: Can you just tell me about that? Call? 175 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 3: My sister mine it. She was a woman about town. 176 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 3: She had a lot of connections and contacts. So she said, 177 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 3: someone told me about Arthur Mitchell starting a program. That's 178 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 3: what I thought. It was a program up in Harlem, 179 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: and I, you know, I was like, well, now do 180 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 3: I want to go? Traveling way up there? But anyway 181 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 3: I went. I went to the audition. 182 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: Did you know it was an audition for classical dancers? 183 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 3: Yes, I knew he was looking for ballet. And I 184 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 3: didn't know who Arthur Mitchell was. We didn't have Google then. 185 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 3: But Nanette knew of him. She knew of him and 186 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 3: his story. And so I went and I passed the audition. 187 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 3: You know, he told me to come back. 188 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 2: You didn't tell Arthur that you were a twenty seven 189 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 2: year old mother of three? What did you tell him? 190 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 4: I don't remember ever. 191 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 3: You know, it wasn't like you sat down to an interview. 192 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 3: It was very informal. He said, you you, you, you 193 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 3: come back, you know, And I didn't speak on it. 194 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 3: It wasn't an issue right then. I just lied. 195 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 2: What was obvious in the ballet world that told you 196 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 2: you don't announce yourself as a mother of three children 197 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: to a director? 198 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 3: Why, oh well no, well then he would have just 199 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 3: said goodbye. I'm almost like automatically, I mean, what are 200 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 3: you doing here? You know, if I had already made 201 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 3: a name for myself and was a well known dancer. 202 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 3: Maybe you'd get an audition, but no, that was unheard of. 203 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 2: To the point that when your kids would come to 204 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 2: the school on Saturdays, they were told to refer to 205 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: you as their aunt. 206 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 3: Yes, we made a game of it, the daughter of 207 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 3: a deeply practical immigrant mother who wasn't convinced that giving 208 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 3: up your part time. 209 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: Job that paid a reliable salary for some ballet company 210 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 2: was a good idea. Your husband thought there was beauty 211 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 2: in your decision. It is very notable that in the 212 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: late sixties you have a husband that says, go pursue 213 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 2: your dream. I'll figure it out with the kids. We'll 214 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 2: figure it out with the kids. Can you talk a 215 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 2: little bit about his support of your life as a dancer. 216 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 3: In Devas on Staten Island, the brothers and Sisters United 217 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 3: and whatever he was a part of he was always 218 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 3: he was a part of this community, and he knew 219 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 3: me in a sense that this is what I did. 220 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 3: This was just what I did, anything to do with 221 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 3: the theater and getting people together and dance and all that. 222 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 3: So no, he didn't object at all. You know, it 223 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 3: was hard on us because a little bit of stipend 224 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 3: that I got it was like carfare and lunch money. 225 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 3: It wasn't really you know, anything you could depend on. 226 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 3: But we made it through. 227 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 4: We managed. 228 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: Tell me about that first year at Dance Theater of Harlem. 229 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 2: Arthur Mitchell is mustling together this company. He's training you 230 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: all to be unified and performance ready. What was the pace, like, 231 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: how hard were the days? 232 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 3: Whooa, yes, because we started at nine, so you know, 233 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 3: my day started at seven, getting up tall nine with 234 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 3: exercise classes. We would have body conditioning and pilates, then 235 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 3: company class and then hours of rehearsal and then you 236 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 3: break and then you would have to come back in 237 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 3: the evening to dance. So it was very vigorous. 238 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: Tell me about racing for the Staten Island ferry at 239 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: the end of a long night. 240 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And if you missed that boat, you know, 241 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 3: you wait another half hour, and after like eleven or so, 242 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 3: you waited an hour, you know. 243 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: And talking with the other Swans during the reporting of 244 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: this book, they talk about going to clubs afterwards or 245 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 2: getting together for drinks. You had a very different life. 246 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 2: You were rushing home to see if there was food. 247 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 3: For school lunches the next day, homework and all of that. 248 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a lot of juggling and a lot 249 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 2: of sacrifice you're making. What made it all worth it? 250 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 2: Why did you want to be a part of the 251 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: dance Theater of Harlem? What was it giving you? 252 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 3: Well, I found out, we found out that author Mitchell 253 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 3: really had a vision. He talked to us about the 254 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 3: civil rights movement and how we are a part of 255 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 3: that change in the country. He would speak to us 256 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 3: about how blacks weren't accepted in the theater, how jobs 257 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 3: are very scarce, and he was very fortunate that balance 258 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 3: sheet picked him out. But that's one out of a thousand, 259 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 3: you see. So after a while it became I'm a 260 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 3: part of something. It's not just I'm out there trying 261 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 3: to audition and trying to be in somebody's company. 262 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 4: We were hard at something. 263 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: Tell me about why. A year into the company's life 264 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 2: you decide I've got to tell Arthur Mitchell, I have 265 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 2: kids at home. 266 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 3: I guess it became like an issue. We were progressing 267 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 3: move up to a certain level, and he was preparing, 268 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 3: you know, for touring. Well, I didn't know how it 269 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 3: was going to go, and I was trying to prepare 270 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 3: myself to accept whatever happened, But he just said, you 271 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 3: should have told me. I could have given you a 272 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 3: little bit more money than you were making, so long 273 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 3: as it doesn't interfere with the work we're doing. Then 274 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 3: he was fine with it. 275 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 2: And sure enough you saw a little bump in your page. 276 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, right, a little bumpy. 277 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 3: But he didn't change towards me. I was still a 278 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 3: part of the group. I still got corrections and he 279 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 3: still you know, noticed me. It's not like, oh well, 280 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 3: I'd just write her off, you know. No. 281 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 2: In conversations, some of the women expressed having this very 282 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: complicated relationship with mister Mitchell that was kind of like 283 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 2: a father figure persona in their lives, and they were 284 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 2: so sensitive to his approval and craved his approval and 285 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: were flattened by his disapproval. It seemed like you had 286 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 2: a slightly more mature relationship with him. What was the 287 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 2: dynamic between you and Arthur and what do you think 288 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 2: accounted for it? You're not holding him up on a high. 289 00:19:55,160 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 3: I think he respected me and that I, you know, 290 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 3: was a mother, and that I was still trying to 291 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 3: work at my craft and I did try to hold 292 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 3: my own I was always trying to get better and 293 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 3: working and taking my correct so and I was a 294 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 3: part of the group. 295 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 2: He didn't hold the same power over you. 296 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 3: Well, I think it's because I was more mature, had 297 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 3: a husband, you know. Yeah, I was a little afraid 298 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 3: of him. Like if he would yell at you for 299 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 3: something you were doing wrong, or something happened on stage, 300 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 3: of course I would feel something. But some of the 301 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 3: girls would get devastated, you know, to the point of tears. 302 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 3: But I just think because I was a little older, 303 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 3: he didn't hit under my skin. Yeah, it's more I 304 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 3: felt bad for the others when it happened to the 305 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 3: other ladies, I felt for them that they had to 306 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 3: go through it. 307 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. 308 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 2: Do you remember a moment of witnessing him just tearing 309 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 2: a ballerina up? 310 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 3: Well, I guess tearing him up is kind of harsh, 311 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 3: but yeah, you know you'd hear things like, yeah, you're 312 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 3: getting fat. You couldn't do that step because your thighs 313 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 3: are too big, you know, ugly. 314 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 4: Thing, you know, mean things. 315 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 3: You didn't take that correction I gave you last time, 316 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 3: so you're stupid. He could be very mean. As I 317 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 3: did find out that he wasn't the only one that 318 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 3: this was like, how they are an ego. You know, 319 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 3: this is my company and you. 320 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 4: Just do as I say. Yeah. 321 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 3: He's the boys too, especially the men. He really gave 322 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 3: it to them. 323 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 324 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 2: Did you have a specific role in the company in 325 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: which people thought of you as a soft place to land? 326 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 2: Would people turn to you as for a source of comfort? 327 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 4: I think so yes. 328 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 3: I think I was like Auntie, Yeah, Auntie. Walter Rains 329 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 3: and I were the oldest in the company at that time, 330 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 3: so we were like Marvin Pop. 331 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. 332 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 2: Can you talk about the magic of the life what 333 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: Dance Theater of Harlem gave you in terms of taking 334 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 2: you around the world. 335 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 4: The first trip to Europe when we went to Italy. 336 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 3: Before that, we had did the Caribbean and that was 337 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 3: good because I had never traveled and that was wonderful. 338 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 3: But then to go to Europe, to go to Italy 339 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 3: and Amsterdam and some of the places, you know, like 340 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 3: that was really overwhelmed. 341 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 4: I couldn't believe it. You know, it's just me and 342 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 4: I really hear. 343 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 2: And audiences loved you all. 344 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:16,959 Speaker 3: Oh, they loved us encore after on, Like it was 345 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 3: really amazing. I remember thinking, well, are they serious? We 346 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 3: can't be that good. I mean, what's so good about 347 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 3: us that they're raving like this? 348 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 4: You know, I can't believe it. 349 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, but we were proud of what we were doing, 350 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 3: and we were loving what we were doing. Even though 351 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 3: it was hard, I was glad I was doing it. 352 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 3: I felt fortunate that I've had this opportunity to do 353 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 3: it for however long it lasts. 354 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 2: Why did you leave the company when you did? 355 00:23:55,040 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 3: Because the work, the scheduling, the touring, it became too 356 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 3: much for me. The children were getting older. 357 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 2: You know, were you heartbroken to leave? 358 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 3: I won't say heartbroken. It was sad to leave the company, 359 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 3: and also my friends because they were also my family. 360 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 3: But as you know, I didn't really leave because I 361 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 3: stayed and I worked in the school. He was building 362 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 3: a school then, so I became a teacher. I started 363 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 3: with the little ones, and then I still took company class, 364 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 3: and I acted as an alternate if someone was out 365 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 3: with the women, and I was always allowed to, you know, 366 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 3: watch rehearsals, and so I was around all the time, 367 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 3: so to speak. 368 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 2: Dancers often talk about how their careers are famously short. 369 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 2: But one of the things I love most about your 370 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 2: life is that your big role came to you at 371 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 2: fifty when you were cast in Gordon Parks film, Martin. 372 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 2: Can you share what it was like to put point 373 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 2: shoes back on at fifty years old? 374 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, but you know, I'd known dancers, and even 375 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 3: now with everyone knowing so much about the physical body 376 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 3: and what it can do, there are dances fifty or 377 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 3: so in dance companies. They may be in the core, 378 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 3: they may be demi soloists, but it happens. Maybe back 379 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 3: then it didn't, Yeah, Sheila. 380 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 2: When you're in your seventies, you join a dance group 381 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 2: called the five plus Ensemble for dancers over the age 382 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: of fifty who still have the juice to perform. I 383 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 2: wonder if you could just talk about the feeling of 384 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 2: taking the stage for a performance at seventy five as 385 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: opposed to a nervous young woman at twenty. 386 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 3: When you're younger, it's like I want to please a choreographer. 387 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 3: I want to do the best I can in this 388 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 3: part so that I can be a good part of 389 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 3: this production. It's always someone other than you outside of you. 390 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 3: Am I doing? 391 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 4: It's right? 392 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 3: What do I have to do next? Now that I'm older? 393 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 3: It's just a pleasure to be here. This is who 394 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 3: I am, This is my expression. I offer it to 395 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 3: you and hope that you can get something out of it. 396 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 3: Just look, just listen, just enjoy or not. 397 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 398 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 2: The filmmaker Gabrie Christa saw one of those performances of 399 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 2: the five plus ensemble and she told me it struck her. 400 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 2: Why don't we see more older people on stage? Because 401 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 2: this is where the power is. This is performers at 402 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 2: peace and at home with their bodies. And she made 403 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 2: a beautiful short film about you called Sheila last year, 404 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 2: and it's such an ode to your form. Just to 405 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 2: see you sitting in a leotard and then standing up 406 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: and dancing. There's so much history in your body and 407 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 2: your movements. What is your relationship with your body at 408 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: eighty two and have you been at peace with the 409 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 2: aging process? 410 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 4: Yes, I believe I am. I still do exercise yoga, 411 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 4: I no longer do a bar no, and. 412 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 3: I'm very happy and appreciative that I was able to 413 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 3: do or I did for so long. It helped me 414 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 3: to know myself and it filled that creative need. When 415 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 3: we came together for the ensemble, I wasn't even nervous 416 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 3: about performing, whereas you know other time throughout my whole career, 417 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 3: I was a nervous type of person. But yeah, like 418 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 3: you say, more at peace and unfortunate that I managed 419 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 3: to get here, because I can imagine there are other 420 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 3: dancers and stuff who are very frustrated careers were cut 421 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,479 Speaker 3: short or they had an injury that they had to 422 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 3: deal with. All Now I have to teach because I 423 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 3: can't dance. You know, you go through all of that, 424 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 3: and I'm good. 425 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 2: Sheila, You and the four other Swans started the one 426 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty second Street Black Ballet Legacy Council in 427 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: twenty two because you were tired of your legacies being 428 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 2: forgotten by history. Since then, you've met every Tuesday afternoon 429 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,479 Speaker 2: without fail. I've been lucky to sit in on several 430 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 2: of those meetings, and there was something so beautiful and 431 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 2: consistent about the way you women would come together. Last 432 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,479 Speaker 2: year you lost Gail McKinney Griffith, one of the founding 433 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 2: members of the one hundred and fifty second Street Black 434 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 2: Beallet Legacy Council and a founding member of Dance Theater 435 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 2: of Harlem. I'm just wondering how comforting it is to 436 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 2: you to have been in such close communion with her 437 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 2: over the last few years. 438 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 3: Gail was always a light in our lives. Everyone will 439 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 3: say that to you. Let's just she was so her 440 00:29:52,600 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 3: passing is big. That she's not here with us. Latched 441 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 3: onto the word, well, the meaning of sisterhood. That's who 442 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 3: we are. We're not just an alumni group coming together 443 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 3: for memoirs. We've known each other so long and we 444 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 3: got to know each other again. 445 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: Does it provide any comfort to know that she put 446 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 2: her story down on record. 447 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 3: Oh, yes, yes it does, because I want everyone to 448 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 3: know her. She was an angel. She was human, you know, 449 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 3: ups and downs, in and outs, but basically essence, she 450 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 3: was an angel. 451 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, just using your wisdom and your wide lens, what 452 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: would you what would you say to young dancers who 453 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: had all of the ambition and the hunger starting their careers. 454 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 2: How would you counsel them to hold onto themselves like 455 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 2: you really did yourself. 456 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 3: You have to try to know yourself, really try to 457 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 3: grow up inside, because putting a dance on the stage 458 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 3: has obstacles. You see, it's not just the creative spirit 459 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 3: and the creative source. See that's in you. But then 460 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 3: you have to deal with business. You have to deal 461 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 3: with a production and that's not always a creative spiritual environment. 462 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 3: So you have to create that and have that and 463 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 3: build that within yourself. No one doesn't want to see 464 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 3: you dance. That's their problem, you see. You have to 465 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 3: try to know yourself as best you can and be 466 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 3: able to deal with the obstacles and the criticisms and 467 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 3: the on equality of what happens in the theater. I mean, 468 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 3: it's worldwide and in some way you may make a change. 469 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 3: These young dancers now they may make a big change 470 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 3: in the theater. This could be a revolution for them, evolution, 471 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 3: you see, to make that change because we see there 472 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 3: are more black dances that we get to see, and 473 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 3: you see how fabulous they are. See Alvin Elliot has 474 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 3: some of the to me, the greatest dancers in the world, 475 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 3: and that includes Russia. 476 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 4: You know, the French. 477 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 3: But we need to be used and it's coming because 478 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 3: nobody wants to put up with that foolishness anymore. I 479 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 3: think it's just now. It's still a problem. It's still 480 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 3: a problem, but don't let it stop you because like 481 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 3: we just said, a change is coming. You're going to 482 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 3: be part of that change. So have faith in your 483 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 3: artistic abilities. You know that you've been gifted with it' 484 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 3: to gift. 485 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 2: Thank you, Sheila, thank you so much for this conversation 486 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 2: and for all our conversations, and mostly thank you so 487 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 2: much for the example of how one can be an 488 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 2: artist in this world. 489 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 3: And thank you Karen for for telling our stories. 490 00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 4: Thank you very much. 491 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: That was Sheila Rohan talking with Karen Balbi, the author 492 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 1: of The Swans of Harlem, which is available wherever books 493 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: and audio books are sold. And remember keep an eye 494 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: out for season three of The Turning and thanks for listening.