WEBVTT - #241 Jason Flom with Jerome Loach

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<v Speaker 1>On the night of January tenth, two thousand and nine,

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<v Speaker 1>forty three year old Jerome Loach was performing as one

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<v Speaker 1>of the leads in a church play in South Philadelphia.

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<v Speaker 1>At the same time, police were responding to a home

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<v Speaker 1>invasion in West Philadelphia in which two men forced themselves

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<v Speaker 1>into a home at gunpoint, confronting three women. Nothing was

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<v Speaker 1>stolen and no one was hurt. As police arrived, they

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<v Speaker 1>saw two men running away and arrested Sophie Batt and

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<v Speaker 1>Jesse Higgins. One of the victims, stated that there was

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<v Speaker 1>a third man involved in In Batt's original statement, he said

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<v Speaker 1>that he didn't know the person, but under threat of

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<v Speaker 1>deportation and other charges by investigators, Fat changed his story

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<v Speaker 1>to say that the third man was his employer at

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<v Speaker 1>a barber shop, Jerome Loach. Jerome was arrested when charged

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<v Speaker 1>with forty two counts, but prior to trial, Bat recanted

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<v Speaker 1>his identification, citing pressure from investigators. Despite this, the prosecution

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<v Speaker 1>read Bat's prior statement to the jury in light of

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<v Speaker 1>the actual exculpatory phone records. An investigator misled the jury

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<v Speaker 1>with fabricated phone records to tie Jerome into the crime.

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<v Speaker 1>When the defense failed to present Jerome's alibi or to

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<v Speaker 1>expose the fake phone records. Jerome was convicted and sentenced

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<v Speaker 1>to twenty five to fifty years. Jerome was able to

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<v Speaker 1>win an evidentiary hearing in which he was able to

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<v Speaker 1>present his alibi and expose the fraudulent phone records, proving

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<v Speaker 1>both ineffective assistance of counsel and prosecutorial misconduct, ultimately setting

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<v Speaker 1>himself free after a decade in prison. This is romful conviction.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to ronful Conviction. I'm your host, Jason Flomm.

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<v Speaker 1>Today's episode would actually be better as a comedy if

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<v Speaker 1>it wasn't so incredibly sinister and if the consequences were

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<v Speaker 1>so terror of this ridiculous frame job. And when I

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<v Speaker 1>say that, I'm talking about Jerome Loach. So, Jerome, first

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<v Speaker 1>of all, welcome to wrongful Conviction. I'm sorry you're here,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm happy you're here.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, and the audience will allow me to come

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<v Speaker 2>before y'all and share my story.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Jerome, you grew up in Philadelphia, is that right?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, sir?

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<v Speaker 1>Feel listen, what was your life like growing up and

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<v Speaker 1>what were your interactions with law enforcement before this crazy day?

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<v Speaker 2>Essentially, I grew up in a single parent household. My

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<v Speaker 2>father passed away when I was about ten years old.

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<v Speaker 2>That left my mother to raise six children. I took

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<v Speaker 2>to the streets at of every young age. I wound

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<v Speaker 2>up getting caught up in little nicknacked crimes, nothing serious,

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<v Speaker 2>but just getting caught up with the wrong crowd.

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<v Speaker 3>All my other.

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<v Speaker 2>Siblings they wound up growing up to become successful entrepreneurs, ministers.

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<v Speaker 2>My brother, he went on his served twenty five years

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<v Speaker 2>in the army, and so I was the only one

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<v Speaker 2>that made that wrong turn.

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<v Speaker 3>I was young at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>I served my time, and during my incarceration, I went

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<v Speaker 2>to the University of Pittsburgh, went to college.

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<v Speaker 3>I wound up getting a couple of trades.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the main trade was in barbering, and I

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<v Speaker 2>wound up getting my license. I transformed that and wound

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<v Speaker 2>up getting my manager's license, and so when I come

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<v Speaker 2>back home, I wound up getting into real estate and

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<v Speaker 2>opening up a barbershop. Once I opened up the barbershop,

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<v Speaker 2>I felt the need to want to give back, and

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<v Speaker 2>so those individuals that was returning home, ex offenders and

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<v Speaker 2>things of that nature who had the barbered license, I

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<v Speaker 2>would hire them at my barbershop, you know, give them

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<v Speaker 2>like a second chance, like I got a second chance,

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<v Speaker 2>try to get their life in order and doing this.

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<v Speaker 2>One individual that I wind up hiring was an individual

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<v Speaker 2>by the name of Sophie fat And this is how

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<v Speaker 2>this story in my life began to take a change.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it adds a layer of tragedy to this awful

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<v Speaker 1>injustice because it impacted you and your family, but also

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<v Speaker 1>the opportunities that you were providing for people who really

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<v Speaker 1>needed those opportunities. Let's go back to the case itself.

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<v Speaker 1>So at nine point fifteen on January tenth, two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and nine, the Philadelphia Police responded to a report of

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<v Speaker 1>a home invasion in the Cobbs Creek neighborhood of West Philadelphia. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>three women were in the house, and they said that

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<v Speaker 1>a man knocked on their door pretending to be a

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<v Speaker 1>pizza delivery guy. He and another man forced their way

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<v Speaker 1>in at gunpoint. But here's where it gets really weird, right.

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<v Speaker 1>They asked one of the women where her boyfriend was.

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<v Speaker 1>She said she didn't know, and soon they left without

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<v Speaker 1>taking anything, sort of apologetically, from what I understand, they

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<v Speaker 1>were like, you know, sorry, we bothered you. Type of

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<v Speaker 1>thing I mean, And in the end, nobody was hurt

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<v Speaker 1>and nothing was stolen. Okay, very unusual set of circumstances here.

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<v Speaker 1>So then police approached the he Wow. So they saw

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<v Speaker 1>two guys running away, and they arrested two guys, a

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<v Speaker 1>guy named Sophie Fat and Jesse Higgins. They recovered a

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<v Speaker 1>bandana and a gun holster from Higgins at a tourist

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<v Speaker 1>revolver from an alley where Higgins was found running. The

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<v Speaker 1>women identified both of the guys as the home invaders

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<v Speaker 1>and said that they're in the invasion. This is an

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<v Speaker 1>important point. Higgins would perceive a call and turned to

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<v Speaker 1>Fat and said let's go right before they left Esventually,

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<v Speaker 1>they were both charged with Berkeley conspiracy from at Berkeley

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<v Speaker 1>So one of the women said there was a third person,

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<v Speaker 1>a black man in his twenties, about six feet tall,

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<v Speaker 1>with the tan jacket and jeans, who got away. Now.

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<v Speaker 1>She told police that one of the other women might

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<v Speaker 1>have known this man, implying that the home invasion had

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<v Speaker 1>been a setup. Sophie Fatt made a statement to Detective

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<v Speaker 1>John Druding on January eleventh that he didn't know who

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<v Speaker 1>this third man was besides that his nickname was Rome. So, Jerome,

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<v Speaker 1>did you match the description of that person in any

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<v Speaker 1>meaningful way?

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<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, no, I'm about twice that age number

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<v Speaker 2>at that particular time. I'm mid forties, my built, everything

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<v Speaker 2>was totally opposite. Nothing about her description match me. And

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<v Speaker 2>we know that to be true because afterwards, a year

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<v Speaker 2>or so later, when my picture was given to all

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<v Speaker 2>the victims, they all said they couldn't identify me, that

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't know who I was. Sophie Fat, in his

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<v Speaker 2>original statement, he never said that there was three people

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<v Speaker 2>that came in the house. He said that it was

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<v Speaker 2>another person that was involved in the planning, and that

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<v Speaker 2>this person came to the house but never came in

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<v Speaker 2>the house. Sophie Fat also stated that he was upstairs

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<v Speaker 2>and he came downstairs and that's when the second person, Jesse,

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<v Speaker 2>said we have to go. Sophie Fat never claimed in

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<v Speaker 2>his first statement that he heard.

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<v Speaker 3>A phone call. He's seen a phone call, none of that.

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<v Speaker 1>And Jesse, of course versus Jesse Higgins, who was Sophie

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<v Speaker 1>Vatt's co defendant. And in October of that year it

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<v Speaker 1>had been ten months since the crime, Sophie Fatt made

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<v Speaker 1>a deal with prosecutors, and this happens again and again,

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<v Speaker 1>where people receive almost an offer they can't refuse in

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<v Speaker 1>exchange for implicating basically anybody else. So in this new statement,

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<v Speaker 1>Fat now said that you, Jerome, were involved in the

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<v Speaker 1>invasion and were the person he had previously identified as Rome.

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<v Speaker 1>He said that you persuaded him to commit the home

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<v Speaker 1>invasion to pay off a debt, and that you had

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<v Speaker 1>been there during the robbery, had given Fat, who posed

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<v Speaker 1>as a pizza deliverer, a gun, and had texted Higgins

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<v Speaker 1>during the crime. So what do you think caused him

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<v Speaker 1>to finger you? I mean, other than the obvious, which

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<v Speaker 1>was that he had to pick someone out if he

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to take some of the heat off of himself.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't know what was in Fat's mind, but

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<v Speaker 2>what I do know is that Fat came under a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of pressure from the police officers. They was threatening

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<v Speaker 2>with deportation, they was threatening with fifty years, all types

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<v Speaker 2>of stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>And yeah, it's sad because you were a guy who

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<v Speaker 1>had given Fat an opportunity working in your barbershop. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's almost like a Shakespearean twist to this whole thing

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<v Speaker 1>for him to come forward and implicate you. So this

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<v Speaker 1>crazy case began under the district Attorney Lynn Abraham, who

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<v Speaker 1>was wrapping up a very checkered twenty year tenure, to

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<v Speaker 1>say the least. But her successor was the newly elected

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<v Speaker 1>Seth Williams, and when he picked up this case, he

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<v Speaker 1>decided to make it an example of how tough on

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<v Speaker 1>crime he was. And so, jero on December nineteen, two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand and nine, you were charged with forty two counts

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<v Speaker 1>related to the incident, including two counts of robbery and

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<v Speaker 1>single counts of criminal conspiracy, burglary, falls and prisonment, terroristic

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<v Speaker 1>threats at attempted theft. But neither fat nor Higgins had

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<v Speaker 1>been charged with the majority of these alleged crimes. And

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<v Speaker 1>then you were arrested January fourth, twenty ten. But here's

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<v Speaker 1>the thing. We haven't even scratched the surface on this insanity,

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<v Speaker 1>because what adds another huge layer to all of this

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<v Speaker 1>is your alibi. Your airtight alibi. I mean, in a

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<v Speaker 1>world of alibis, yours was truly top tier. If someone

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<v Speaker 1>could get convicted with an albi like yours, then nobody

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<v Speaker 1>is saved from this. So tell us what you were

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<v Speaker 1>doing at exactly the time that this crazy situation was unfolding.

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<v Speaker 2>At the time that this whole thing was unfolding, I

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<v Speaker 2>was performing in a play called Clean Up Your Own Mess.

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<v Speaker 3>It was a church play.

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<v Speaker 2>And it had two viewings, one on the afternoon and one

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<v Speaker 2>doing an evening.

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<v Speaker 3>In time, I'm one of the lead characters in this play.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, billboards, paste ubs, everything showing that I'm at

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<v Speaker 2>this play.

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<v Speaker 3>And while was at this play, this crime was going on.

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<v Speaker 1>So how many people were there?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we looking at over one hundred people, so

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<v Speaker 2>that was there at this play.

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<v Speaker 1>So again, there's not too many cases I've ever heard

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<v Speaker 1>of where you have over one hundred alibi witnesses. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>your first attorney didn't even investigate the albi, right, which

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<v Speaker 1>would not be a difficult alibi to investigate. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>you throw a stick out there and you'd hit one

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<v Speaker 1>of the witnesses, so you replaced her, and the new

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<v Speaker 1>attorney said he would investigate it and presented a trial.

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<v Speaker 1>But as the case approached the time of trial, that

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<v Speaker 1>attorney told you and your family that he couldn't present

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<v Speaker 1>his alibi defense because the first attorney failed to give

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<v Speaker 1>adequate notice to the court. I mean, it's just unbelievable.

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<v Speaker 1>But there you were heading into your trial, and there's

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<v Speaker 1>yet another statement from Sophie Fatt. Please tell us about that.

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<v Speaker 2>So once he gave his statement, a month later he

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<v Speaker 2>gave another state and guess what. It exonerated me of

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<v Speaker 2>everything before I even go to trial. Before anything happens,

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<v Speaker 2>he said, hey, hold up, I lie. This man never

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<v Speaker 2>had nothing to do with this case. I made it

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<v Speaker 2>up because I was trying to get a better deal.

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<v Speaker 2>And so when we go to trial, he takes the

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<v Speaker 2>stand and he told them over after he was badgered

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<v Speaker 2>by the DA, he said, listen, this man ain't had

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<v Speaker 2>nothing to do with this case.

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<v Speaker 3>I lied, And they didn't want to believe that.

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<v Speaker 2>They went so far as to say that I may

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<v Speaker 2>have gotten somebody to get at him. Well, that didn't work,

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<v Speaker 2>because he wound up saying, hey, I'm the leader of

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<v Speaker 2>an Asian gang.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm not afraid of none of this.

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<v Speaker 2>He hasn't been threatened, that no one had been approached.

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<v Speaker 3>They didn't want to believe that.

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<v Speaker 1>So two of the women testified and didn't identify you.

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<v Speaker 1>Fat came clean and said that you had nothing to

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<v Speaker 1>do with this, that he had lied previously, because he

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<v Speaker 1>was threatened with deportation. And then Higgins, who pleaded guilty,

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<v Speaker 1>didn't testify at all, So the prosecutors had basically nothing

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<v Speaker 1>to go on at this point, so they had to

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<v Speaker 1>make up something, right, and that's where these phantom phone

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<v Speaker 1>records come in. We've been doing this show for over

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<v Speaker 1>five years, two hundred and fifty episodes or whatever. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think I've ever heard this one. Just follow along

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<v Speaker 1>with me for a second here. Okay, So prosecutors used

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<v Speaker 1>phone records to try to show that you were involved, right,

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<v Speaker 1>What they actually showed was that you weren't involved. The

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<v Speaker 1>original records they suppeeded in two thousand and nine were

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<v Speaker 1>almost completely exculpatory for you. Higgins's phone showed no local

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<v Speaker 1>calls at all on the day of the crime, so

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<v Speaker 1>that blows it up right there. Then the police assumed

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<v Speaker 1>that the records were wrong, so they weren't introduced into evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>Let me just say that again. Police assumed that the records,

0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.920
<v Speaker 1>which weren't wrong because they couldn't have been wrong, were wrong.

0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.560
<v Speaker 1>Then they used a digital tool called a universal Forensic

0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.400
<v Speaker 1>Extraction device to get records directly from the phone. But

0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.679
<v Speaker 1>this also showed no calls or text between Higgins and

0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:19.760
<v Speaker 1>you on the day of the crime, So okay, again,

0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.440
<v Speaker 1>should be case closed, But nope. So this is where

0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:28.320
<v Speaker 1>Detective Christopher ten Kellowix ended up going into Higgins's phone

0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.520
<v Speaker 1>and looking at the call log. Now a trial, he

0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 1>testified as an expert in digital forensics, said that he

0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:38.160
<v Speaker 1>quote manually extracted twenty five calls between the phone allegedly

0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.839
<v Speaker 1>belonged to Higgins and a phone registered to Loach's wife.

0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.199
<v Speaker 1>He manually extractedly, but I'm trying to figure out what

0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.000
<v Speaker 1>that means. He also said he found a text from

0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:49.200
<v Speaker 1>the Loach phone to the Higgins phone, made a few

0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.800
<v Speaker 1>hours before the home invasion, and this info was contained

0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:57.120
<v Speaker 1>in a quote unquote supplemental report that Detective tank Kellowick's

0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:02.400
<v Speaker 1>attached to the uped report. So, I mean, drum, what

0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:03.000
<v Speaker 1>the hell.

0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:05.320
<v Speaker 3>Man this here?

0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:09.640
<v Speaker 2>It pains me to talk about it a lot of times. Essentially,

0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:13.600
<v Speaker 2>what happened was that because the young lady said that

0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.480
<v Speaker 2>there was a phone call, they needed something to corroborate that.

0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.800
<v Speaker 2>They then got Sophie Fat and then instead of Sophie

0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Fat saying that it was a phone call, he slips

0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:27.800
<v Speaker 2>and say that it was a text message and it's

0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:28.600
<v Speaker 2>on record now.

0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:33.040
<v Speaker 3>Has that never came out, I probably still would be

0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:34.560
<v Speaker 3>doing fifty years in prison.

0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Detective John Juden, he was the lead detective on this

0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:45.400
<v Speaker 2>case and he was the one who obtained the phone

0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:49.360
<v Speaker 2>records a year before I even got arrested Sophie Fat

0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:53.800
<v Speaker 2>and mister Higgins was already convicted a year before me.

0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.240
<v Speaker 3>And so Judy goes on this stamp.

0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:02.320
<v Speaker 2>He's talking insane things about the phone records. So we

0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:05.600
<v Speaker 2>had to get what he said then in compare to

0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:09.200
<v Speaker 2>what he's saying a year later now. And so when

0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.760
<v Speaker 2>he got the phone records back then, he said that

0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:19.400
<v Speaker 2>there was no local phone calls on mister Higgins's phone records.

0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:24.120
<v Speaker 2>He then looked at Sophie fat phone records and there

0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:27.920
<v Speaker 2>was again no phone calls between.

0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:29.920
<v Speaker 3>Us, so that was a problem.

0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:35.080
<v Speaker 2>He then turned around and he got with a detective

0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.000
<v Speaker 2>named Christopher tink Kellowists.

0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:40.760
<v Speaker 3>He was a detective.

0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:46.560
<v Speaker 2>Who moonlighted as an expert in forensics. Mister tank Kelligish

0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.440
<v Speaker 2>had the phone records from AT and T and Sprint,

0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:54.840
<v Speaker 2>both of these phone companies basically said there is no

0:15:55.200 --> 0:16:00.280
<v Speaker 2>phone calls during this time period. That equates it's the

0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Loaches phone to these phones.

0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.720
<v Speaker 3>None. Not only that, the phone company.

0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:12.040
<v Speaker 2>Said this phone itself do not have the capabilities to

0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:17.200
<v Speaker 2>make texts, but they withheld all of that. Tank Calliquish said,

0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:21.000
<v Speaker 2>let's use a universal for rigic distraction device. This is

0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.960
<v Speaker 2>the device that FBI and everybody else uses to extract

0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:28.360
<v Speaker 2>information from phones and computers. And he plugged that into

0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:33.880
<v Speaker 2>the phone and in two minutes it extracted no phone calls.

0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:38.240
<v Speaker 2>And this is what tank Calliquish testified to after the

0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.160
<v Speaker 2>report that none of this stuff was.

0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:40.960
<v Speaker 3>In that phone.

0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.600
<v Speaker 2>He then picked up the phone a day two days later,

0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:49.440
<v Speaker 2>and miraculously he sees twenty five phone calls and a

0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:53.080
<v Speaker 2>text message all around the time of this crime.

0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.640
<v Speaker 1>So he saw twenty five calls that AT and T

0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.960
<v Speaker 1>had the incontroversial evidence never happened, and a text mess

0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.040
<v Speaker 1>since that AT and T said the phone was incapable

0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.280
<v Speaker 1>of sending. I mean, this is this is really dark stuff.

0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:12.080
<v Speaker 2>And it gets crazier because we say Higgins phone, well

0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:13.440
<v Speaker 2>that was a lie.

0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:14.880
<v Speaker 3>It wasn't even his phone.

0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:19.280
<v Speaker 2>Sprint wind up sending records saying that Higgins never owned

0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.760
<v Speaker 2>the phone, that this phone that they looking at belongs

0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:28.320
<v Speaker 2>to someone else, and they misrepresented the facts, They concealed

0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:33.160
<v Speaker 2>the evidence, you know, and they made it all appear

0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:37.400
<v Speaker 2>to be something that it wasn't. Sprint records came back

0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.800
<v Speaker 2>and said those was no twenty five calls at and

0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.480
<v Speaker 2>T said, those wasn't twenty five calls at and T

0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:49.040
<v Speaker 2>said that phone can't even text. But that's where when

0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.159
<v Speaker 2>you say manually extract.

0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:53.879
<v Speaker 3>That sounds real technical.

0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.040
<v Speaker 2>But all he did was picked the phone up and

0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:01.520
<v Speaker 2>looked at it, a phone that supposedly been sitting in

0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:06.280
<v Speaker 2>evidence for over a year. So you saying that every

0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:11.920
<v Speaker 2>other police officer or detective before tank Calibers who had

0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.840
<v Speaker 2>that phone looked at this phone and they didn't see

0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:19.920
<v Speaker 2>none of this because Detective Judie said that in order

0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:23.240
<v Speaker 2>for him to get the phone number from that phone,

0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.439
<v Speaker 2>he had to turn it on and look through the phone,

0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.800
<v Speaker 2>and he said he could not find nothing in the phone.

0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.159
<v Speaker 1>That's because there was nothing in the phone. And it

0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.960
<v Speaker 1>still gets crazier from here, because the police also had

0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.919
<v Speaker 1>mister Fatt's phone records which showed a call at one

0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:41.879
<v Speaker 1>twenty two and nine oh seven to the phone registered

0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.400
<v Speaker 1>to your wife, right, because he was somebody who worked

0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:46.600
<v Speaker 1>for you and you knew him right, but equally important,

0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.359
<v Speaker 1>the phone continued to be used after fats arrest at

0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.760
<v Speaker 1>nine to twenty pm on January tenth, two thousand and nine.

0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.240
<v Speaker 1>So Detective Drudien testified that Fat would have had his

0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.159
<v Speaker 1>phone confiscated upon arrest. Of course he would, and he

0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:02.080
<v Speaker 1>was unable to explain these additionalks. That's crazy. So the

0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.560
<v Speaker 1>prosecutor closed by referencing the text from you to Higgins

0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.680
<v Speaker 1>and said that the phone records showed a coordinated effort

0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.960
<v Speaker 1>by the three of you. Loach Batten Higgins. He said,

0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.800
<v Speaker 1>quote at nine oh seven pm, the robbery is underway.

0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.160
<v Speaker 1>Sophie Fat is in the middle of this robbery. Who

0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.359
<v Speaker 1>does he call? He calls the defendant. Why would he

0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:21.920
<v Speaker 1>do that? Ladies and gentlemen, There were twenty five phone

0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:23.560
<v Speaker 1>calls that day. Now, I don't know about you, but

0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:25.680
<v Speaker 1>I can't remember the last time I called someone twenty

0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:28.280
<v Speaker 1>five times in a day. The only way that's happening,

0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.600
<v Speaker 1>something very important must be happening. Think about it. Something

0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:33.919
<v Speaker 1>in your life. You know a baby, you know a

0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.200
<v Speaker 1>job promotion, you get on the phone, you keep calling people. Well,

0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.960
<v Speaker 1>this robbery is important it's important to the defendant, it's

0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:44.200
<v Speaker 1>important to fat and Higgins. End quote. What a steaming

0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.840
<v Speaker 1>pile of bullshit that is. Oh my god, that's the

0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.280
<v Speaker 1>quote from the closing argument. What is wrong with these people?

0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.800
<v Speaker 1>So during deliberations, jurors asked to review the cell phone

0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.399
<v Speaker 1>records for Higgins. Prosecutors told the judge that they didn't

0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:02.200
<v Speaker 1>have the actual record us to supplemental report, So they

0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:07.639
<v Speaker 1>withheld the real records, they substituted this quote unquote supplemental report,

0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.240
<v Speaker 1>and that was what was given to the jurors. I

0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.840
<v Speaker 1>actually feel sick for the jurors because they were sitting

0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.480
<v Speaker 1>there having no ability to make a decision based on facts.

0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:20.760
<v Speaker 2>You absolutely hit it on the nail. I do not

0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:25.119
<v Speaker 2>fuck the jury. They only go on what's presented before them.

0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:29.560
<v Speaker 2>And the jury acts three times. We want to see

0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:34.040
<v Speaker 2>those phone records from Sprint. And that's when the DA said, yeah, no,

0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.159
<v Speaker 2>we don't have those, and the judge was kind of

0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.280
<v Speaker 2>like taking a back, like, huh, well, what was.

0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:40.280
<v Speaker 3>We using during the trial.

0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.800
<v Speaker 2>He said, oh, that was a report that was prepaid

0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:44.880
<v Speaker 2>by the detective.

0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:46.919
<v Speaker 3>And the judge said, well, they don't want to see that.

0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.680
<v Speaker 2>They want to see the actual phone records, and so

0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.920
<v Speaker 2>they asked the jury, listen, we don't have the phone records.

0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:55.320
<v Speaker 2>Do y'all want to see the report? That's the only

0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.840
<v Speaker 2>thing we have. And the jury took this and they

0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.600
<v Speaker 2>convicted me. I do not falk the jury for what

0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.159
<v Speaker 2>they did because they only went on what was resented

0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:05.400
<v Speaker 2>before them.

0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.959
<v Speaker 1>So the jury convicted you of criminal conspiracy on May

0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:12.000
<v Speaker 1>twenty seven, twenty eleven, but it quitted you on all

0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.840
<v Speaker 1>the other charges. So that moment when the jury came

0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.720
<v Speaker 1>back in, I mean, you had seen what these people

0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.439
<v Speaker 1>were capable of, and you'd been through a lot of

0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:24.199
<v Speaker 1>insanity already. Did you still hold out hope that you

0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:26.880
<v Speaker 1>were going to be exonerated and the truth would come out?

0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.159
<v Speaker 1>And what was it like to find out that you

0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:31.840
<v Speaker 1>were going to prison for fifty years?

0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:34.920
<v Speaker 2>I honestly believe I was going to be exonerated because

0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:38.120
<v Speaker 2>I knew I was innocent. But when that verdict came back,

0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:40.919
<v Speaker 2>it took everything out of me. The only way that

0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.680
<v Speaker 2>I can explain it, and my soul was stripped when

0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:47.520
<v Speaker 2>they gave me fifty years.

0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:50.720
<v Speaker 3>I couldn't believe it. I said, I know my life

0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.919
<v Speaker 3>ain't going in like this is y'all kidding me? Like,

0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:56.080
<v Speaker 3>wake me up? Is this a nightmare?

0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.159
<v Speaker 2>I went in fighting because I said, if I'm going

0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:16.840
<v Speaker 2>to die in here, I'm going to die fighting. And

0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:20.040
<v Speaker 2>twice my life almost came to it end while being

0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:25.760
<v Speaker 2>in prison. The psychological and physical torture that I experienced

0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:30.359
<v Speaker 2>while being incarcerated. I am subjected to being in the

0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:34.119
<v Speaker 2>cell by myself because the psychological issues that I have

0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:38.000
<v Speaker 2>been dealing with, PTSD and things of that nature. And

0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:42.440
<v Speaker 2>one day I fell out and myself out completely nine

0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:44.480
<v Speaker 2>ten o'clock at night, I have to be rushed to

0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:48.199
<v Speaker 2>the hospital. Outside hospital in which I stayed for a

0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:52.199
<v Speaker 2>few days, my blood pressure shot to the roof. I

0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:55.080
<v Speaker 2>can recall the doctor said, why is your blood pressure

0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:58.440
<v Speaker 2>so high? I said, why did y'all convict me? That's

0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:02.280
<v Speaker 2>why my blood pressure is so high. And so another

0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:05.440
<v Speaker 2>incident is when I couldn't walk no more than a

0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:08.520
<v Speaker 2>hundred feet before I would pass out, and no one

0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:11.199
<v Speaker 2>could understand why. I wind up being admitted to the

0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:14.760
<v Speaker 2>hospital for a couple of weeks. This time I wind

0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:17.879
<v Speaker 2>up learning that I have a severe case of a needing.

0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:19.960
<v Speaker 2>So now I have to take medication for the rest

0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:22.240
<v Speaker 2>of my life to help me throughout the day.

0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:24.439
<v Speaker 3>And so all these things.

0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:28.800
<v Speaker 2>That I have been experienced with distress and loss of

0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:32.880
<v Speaker 2>loved ones and things this nature like it just tormented

0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:36.480
<v Speaker 2>me beyond torment. I can't describe it now. I don't

0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:39.679
<v Speaker 2>wish this on my worsest enemy. What they've done to me,

0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:40.280
<v Speaker 2>you know.

0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:44.000
<v Speaker 1>I can't even imagine. But during this time, you're also

0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:47.840
<v Speaker 1>pursuing your claims of innocence, and Michael Pelegi began representing

0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:49.840
<v Speaker 1>you after you had filed pro sae emotions and I

0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:52.800
<v Speaker 1>know you had appealed the conviction arguing that a potential

0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:55.320
<v Speaker 1>juror had been dismissed due to his race, that that's

0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:57.840
<v Speaker 1>out of court statement was too unreliable to be admitted

0:23:57.840 --> 0:23:59.680
<v Speaker 1>to evidence. Sounds like you became a pretty good lawyer

0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:02.000
<v Speaker 1>in Print and yourself, and in fact, you went so

0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:03.800
<v Speaker 1>far and I loved this part of the story to

0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:08.840
<v Speaker 1>send a subpoena to Higgins's phone company Sprint, including one

0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:11.399
<v Speaker 1>way you referred to yourself as the law office of

0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:13.760
<v Speaker 1>Jerome Loja. I love that.

0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:19.760
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's how the phone records began to unravel. What

0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:23.280
<v Speaker 2>I did was I had the love of my family

0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:26.680
<v Speaker 2>still out here in society still to this day, and

0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:31.639
<v Speaker 2>my brother went down to city Hall and for five

0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:35.800
<v Speaker 2>dollars he got me some subpoenas from the courthouse and

0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:38.960
<v Speaker 2>sent them back up to the prison and I filled

0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:42.840
<v Speaker 2>those subpoenas out and I subpoenaed the phone company. Well,

0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:46.880
<v Speaker 2>they thought I was working with the DA's office, and

0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:51.760
<v Speaker 2>they wind up sending me the phone records saying that

0:24:52.119 --> 0:24:55.200
<v Speaker 2>mister Higgins doesn't have a.

0:24:55.359 --> 0:24:57.800
<v Speaker 3>Phone registered to them.

0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:01.400
<v Speaker 2>That blew my mind because all through my trial transcripts,

0:25:01.440 --> 0:25:04.960
<v Speaker 2>that's all they talked about is that the police subpoena

0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:08.439
<v Speaker 2>mister Higgins's phone records. So I said, well, hold on,

0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:11.480
<v Speaker 2>if they don't have no phone records for mister Higgins,

0:25:11.480 --> 0:25:14.560
<v Speaker 2>then who is these phone records? So then I had

0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:18.280
<v Speaker 2>to do another subpoena, and this time I subpoena the

0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:21.240
<v Speaker 2>name that was used for this phone and they wound

0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:24.840
<v Speaker 2>up coming back to a female and I said, wow,

0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:28.760
<v Speaker 2>they had this and they didn't tell me. And that's

0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:33.479
<v Speaker 2>when I started learning about the twenty five phone calls

0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:38.720
<v Speaker 2>that never existed, the text messages that never existed. It like,

0:25:38.880 --> 0:25:42.720
<v Speaker 2>everything began to unravel from that point.

0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:44.840
<v Speaker 1>So they were making up calls from a phone that

0:25:44.880 --> 0:25:49.600
<v Speaker 1>didn't exist. I mean, the layers of misconduct is a

0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:52.399
<v Speaker 1>word I'm going to use, but it's stronger than that.

0:25:52.720 --> 0:25:55.879
<v Speaker 1>And what eventually happened is that after all of this

0:25:55.960 --> 0:25:59.040
<v Speaker 1>stuff came to light, prosecutors tried to push back. They

0:25:59.080 --> 0:26:02.720
<v Speaker 1>said that You're claims were speculative, but the state said

0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:05.320
<v Speaker 1>it would not oppose an evidentiary hearing about whether the

0:26:05.359 --> 0:26:08.440
<v Speaker 1>trial attorney was ineffective for failing to secure the testimony

0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:12.440
<v Speaker 1>of alibi witnesses. The little victory there At the hearing,

0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:17.480
<v Speaker 1>your lawyer, Pelegi, presented evidence of your incredibly powerful alibi,

0:26:17.920 --> 0:26:20.640
<v Speaker 1>including the playbill that mentioned your role in the production

0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:22.840
<v Speaker 1>that was distributed to the one hundred plus people who

0:26:22.920 --> 0:26:25.760
<v Speaker 1>attended the show at the church. So there was literally

0:26:26.160 --> 0:26:28.600
<v Speaker 1>a zero percent chance you could have been in both

0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:31.320
<v Speaker 1>places at the same time. And so on July twenty

0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:34.520
<v Speaker 1>four to twenty twenty, Judge Tracy roman Brandeis vacated your

0:26:34.560 --> 0:26:36.719
<v Speaker 1>conviction in order the new trial. She said that your

0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:40.360
<v Speaker 1>attorneys had been ineffective and that the state had engaged

0:26:40.400 --> 0:26:43.320
<v Speaker 1>in misconduct by failing to disclose accurate phone records. So

0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:45.640
<v Speaker 1>this is not me saying, and this is the judge

0:26:45.680 --> 0:26:49.560
<v Speaker 1>and prosecutors with the DA's Conviction Integrity Unit under the

0:26:49.600 --> 0:26:52.800
<v Speaker 1>Great Larry Krasner, agreed that there were problems with the conviction,

0:26:53.400 --> 0:26:55.240
<v Speaker 1>but they still didn't want to dismiss the case. Yet

0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:57.520
<v Speaker 1>they offered you a deal to plead guilty, to reduce

0:26:57.600 --> 0:27:00.439
<v Speaker 1>charge and become eligible for parole. Now I know you

0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:02.879
<v Speaker 1>turned it down, but did you even give it a

0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:05.120
<v Speaker 1>second thought. That's a hard decision to make, right.

0:27:05.640 --> 0:27:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, my lawyer, he fought with me, you know, he

0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:14.639
<v Speaker 2>was very concerned about me just getting out like not

0:27:14.840 --> 0:27:18.120
<v Speaker 2>during the fifty years. And he was doing what any

0:27:18.200 --> 0:27:20.720
<v Speaker 2>lawyer would do and say, hey, listen, this may be

0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:21.280
<v Speaker 2>a good one.

0:27:21.280 --> 0:27:25.600
<v Speaker 3>We can roll the dice and things can have bad luck. Again.

0:27:26.240 --> 0:27:29.560
<v Speaker 2>I didn't think twice because if you won't convict me,

0:27:29.880 --> 0:27:32.560
<v Speaker 2>then you're gonna have to do this again, because I

0:27:32.600 --> 0:27:36.240
<v Speaker 2>didn't do this, and I'm ready to prove my innocence.

0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:40.240
<v Speaker 2>I think that he saw that and he was convinced,

0:27:40.680 --> 0:27:41.960
<v Speaker 2>and he gave me.

0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:44.600
<v Speaker 3>His full support and said, well, let's move forward. And

0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:45.600
<v Speaker 3>we moved forward.

0:27:46.080 --> 0:27:50.080
<v Speaker 2>The judge came back and said there was a constitutional

0:27:50.200 --> 0:27:54.480
<v Speaker 2>violation in this man's case. There was a serious, egregious

0:27:54.560 --> 0:27:58.480
<v Speaker 2>Brady violation, y'all withheld these records. And not only that

0:27:58.800 --> 0:28:03.520
<v Speaker 2>this man had a fight alibi defense woo.

0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:05.000
<v Speaker 3>That sent me to the moon.

0:28:05.560 --> 0:28:10.359
<v Speaker 2>The main thing that I think that was so telling

0:28:11.000 --> 0:28:15.320
<v Speaker 2>was how the judge came back with the Brady claim

0:28:15.600 --> 0:28:19.800
<v Speaker 2>in the violation of the constitutional right, that this was

0:28:19.840 --> 0:28:23.400
<v Speaker 2>an unfair trap, that they can seal those phone records,

0:28:23.600 --> 0:28:28.280
<v Speaker 2>that they misrepresented those records. I think that she really

0:28:28.520 --> 0:28:31.960
<v Speaker 2>gave me what I would consider justice.

0:28:32.200 --> 0:28:36.760
<v Speaker 1>Wow. Listen, it's a beautiful ending to a truly miserable story.

0:28:36.800 --> 0:28:39.400
<v Speaker 1>And of course, on June twenty fourth, twenty twenty one,

0:28:40.040 --> 0:28:43.040
<v Speaker 1>almost a year later, the state of Pennsylvania dismissed the charges,

0:28:43.120 --> 0:28:47.560
<v Speaker 1>stating that the prosecutors had admitted that they had insufficient

0:28:47.600 --> 0:28:50.240
<v Speaker 1>evidence to move forward with a retrial. He had already

0:28:50.240 --> 0:28:53.360
<v Speaker 1>been released on house arrestenced the judge's decision. But now

0:28:53.480 --> 0:28:57.160
<v Speaker 1>you're a free man. And on July thirteenth, twenty twenty one,

0:28:58.160 --> 0:29:00.280
<v Speaker 1>you follow a lawsuit against the City of philed you

0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:03.720
<v Speaker 1>as well as against Detective tech Kelowitz and Detective Druding

0:29:03.800 --> 0:29:07.400
<v Speaker 1>in the US District Court seeking compensation for your wrongful

0:29:07.400 --> 0:29:11.600
<v Speaker 1>conviction and Jerome, let's talk about that, because to this date,

0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:16.320
<v Speaker 1>you've received exactly zero dollars in compensation. Is that right?

0:29:17.200 --> 0:29:22.320
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I have you seved no compensation whatsoever. They kicked

0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:25.520
<v Speaker 2>me out the prison and said, and you is you

0:29:25.560 --> 0:29:29.440
<v Speaker 2>got out of here after decade or more being incarcerated,

0:29:29.600 --> 0:29:33.479
<v Speaker 2>losing all my finances, lost property, things of that nature.

0:29:33.920 --> 0:29:37.760
<v Speaker 2>And now my family has put together go fund me

0:29:38.080 --> 0:29:41.360
<v Speaker 2>to help me try to rebuild my life. So the

0:29:41.400 --> 0:29:44.000
<v Speaker 2>only thing now that I have gone for me to

0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:47.320
<v Speaker 2>help me at this particular time, it's a go Fundme

0:29:47.440 --> 0:29:49.960
<v Speaker 2>page that people, if they want, they can support me.

0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:52.520
<v Speaker 1>So we're going to have the go fund me linked

0:29:52.560 --> 0:29:55.440
<v Speaker 1>in our episode bio. Please take a moment right now,

0:29:55.520 --> 0:29:58.120
<v Speaker 1>don't wait. If you got anything you can spare, that

0:29:58.200 --> 0:30:01.280
<v Speaker 1>would help a lot to to make it through the

0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:05.520
<v Speaker 1>next phase before Jerome hopefully wins this civil trial. But

0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:08.320
<v Speaker 1>that's not a certainty. So please go to the blink

0:30:08.320 --> 0:30:10.480
<v Speaker 1>of our bio, click on the GoFundMe, and join me

0:30:10.640 --> 0:30:13.440
<v Speaker 1>and our team in donating to help Jerome and his family.

0:30:14.200 --> 0:30:17.880
<v Speaker 1>So listen, you're a strong man, and I know you're

0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:21.760
<v Speaker 1>a great example of the power of human redemption. You're

0:30:21.800 --> 0:30:24.920
<v Speaker 1>a courageous guy. And I know I speak for our

0:30:25.000 --> 0:30:27.280
<v Speaker 1>audience and our whole team here at Ronful Conviction when

0:30:27.280 --> 0:30:29.480
<v Speaker 1>I say that you have all of my respect for

0:30:29.600 --> 0:30:32.600
<v Speaker 1>standing strong and for being here with us today and

0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:37.320
<v Speaker 1>sharing your story so eloquently and powerfully. So now we

0:30:37.440 --> 0:30:40.120
<v Speaker 1>have the closing of the show, which is my favorite

0:30:40.120 --> 0:30:42.680
<v Speaker 1>part of the show and everybody knows it by now,

0:30:43.360 --> 0:30:45.840
<v Speaker 1>and the reason is because it's called closing arguments and

0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:48.560
<v Speaker 1>it works like this. I thank you again for being

0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:51.200
<v Speaker 1>here and sharing your story. And then I'm going to

0:30:51.280 --> 0:30:54.120
<v Speaker 1>turn my microphone off, kick back in my chair with

0:30:54.120 --> 0:30:56.360
<v Speaker 1>the headphones on, and leave your mic on so you

0:30:56.440 --> 0:30:59.920
<v Speaker 1>can share with us any other thoughts you have about

0:31:00.000 --> 0:31:02.120
<v Speaker 1>out whatever else you want to talk about.

0:31:02.760 --> 0:31:05.640
<v Speaker 2>I would like to take this opportunity to once again

0:31:05.760 --> 0:31:10.000
<v Speaker 2>thank you Offer Conviction Podcasts for allow me this opportunity

0:31:10.080 --> 0:31:13.400
<v Speaker 2>to come before this audience. One of the things that

0:31:13.840 --> 0:31:18.320
<v Speaker 2>I will hope that anyone who's listening will begin to

0:31:18.440 --> 0:31:24.960
<v Speaker 2>do is focusing on phone records. Phone records is so

0:31:25.240 --> 0:31:31.040
<v Speaker 2>very important and if you don't understand how this goes,

0:31:31.280 --> 0:31:35.680
<v Speaker 2>you need to start learning about phone records. They can

0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:40.480
<v Speaker 2>be manipulated, they can be altered, changed, you got to

0:31:40.600 --> 0:31:42.480
<v Speaker 2>make sure that.

0:31:42.600 --> 0:31:46.120
<v Speaker 3>When going in that courtroom, when a DA.

0:31:46.080 --> 0:31:50.000
<v Speaker 2>Or your lawyer or whoever it is talk about phone records,

0:31:50.280 --> 0:31:54.440
<v Speaker 2>they have to authenticate those phone records.

0:31:54.920 --> 0:31:57.800
<v Speaker 3>Make sure that those phone records are accurate.

0:31:57.840 --> 0:32:03.760
<v Speaker 2>And it's not a they poor being disguised as phone records.

0:32:03.960 --> 0:32:08.560
<v Speaker 2>There's a big distinction with certification of phone records coming

0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:12.120
<v Speaker 2>directly from the phone company and those records that are

0:32:12.200 --> 0:32:18.239
<v Speaker 2>being developed and created by detectives or officers who are

0:32:18.440 --> 0:32:21.600
<v Speaker 2>moonlighting as expert witnesses.

0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:28.320
<v Speaker 3>They still may have a gender. Thank you and God bless.

0:32:34.320 --> 0:32:37.240
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

0:32:37.280 --> 0:32:41.000
<v Speaker 1>thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,

0:32:41.040 --> 0:32:44.480
<v Speaker 1>and Kevin Wartis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music

0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:47.320
<v Speaker 1>in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

0:32:47.320 --> 0:32:51.040
<v Speaker 1>composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram

0:32:51.080 --> 0:32:55.360
<v Speaker 1>at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and

0:32:55.440 --> 0:32:58.560
<v Speaker 1>on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava

0:32:58.600 --> 0:33:01.800
<v Speaker 1>for Good. On all three platforms. You can also follow

0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:06.120
<v Speaker 1>me on both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason flam Ravel.

0:33:06.120 --> 0:33:08.600
<v Speaker 1>Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcasts and

0:33:08.680 --> 0:33:16.680
<v Speaker 1>association with signal Company Number one