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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: I struggle to see this as a doctor Jackel and

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Speaker 2: mister Hyde situation of the two faces. You know, one

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Speaker 2: is public facing and is good, you know, serves other people,

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Speaker 2: and then the other kind of lurks about in the dark.

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Speaker 2: I think ultimately people are so complicated. You don't know

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Speaker 2: what's going on behind closed doors. People aren't what they seem.

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Speaker 1: Meg Edwards lives in Whitechapel, the East End of London.

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Speaker 1: She takes me on a tour of her neighborhood, the

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Speaker 1: same neighborhood where Jack the Ripper murdered his victimsy.

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Speaker 3: You're right in eastern London and you're.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, East End.

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Speaker 2: So we actually point out the only clue that Jack

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Speaker 2: the Ripper left was right outside this door. Yeah, well

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Speaker 2: kind of fell into a bit of a Victorian crime center.

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Speaker 2: So this the bit that's painted gray there, that's where

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Speaker 2: he left his only clue, which was a well physical clue,

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Speaker 2: a bit of an apron that was stained in blood.

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Speaker 5: Was it a victim was found here?

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Speaker 6: Now, victim was found around the corner, and then he walked.

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Speaker 2: This way and this is where he left his only

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Speaker 2: clue and a pretty anti semitic message written in blood

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Speaker 2: across the wall. So yeah, this is this is my home.

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Speaker 1: I've always loved experiencing a place like this, standing in

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Speaker 1: the spot where one of the stories I've heard about

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Speaker 1: for as long as I can remember actually took place.

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Speaker 1: It truly brings it all to life.

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Speaker 3: Now, how far is the jack ober for epicenter and

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Speaker 3: where people feel like it's the most important area.

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Speaker 2: It's right here, right these streets, so that the street

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Speaker 2: that were literally we live on and then we've got

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Speaker 2: this street was an important one.

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Speaker 4: Brick lane is a couple of lanes that way?

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Speaker 1: Why did you choose around here?

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Speaker 2: This is what I is fascinating because this area was

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Speaker 2: for it was a slum. It was a really really

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Speaker 2: poor area with lots of boarding houses.

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Speaker 3: So this is the city of London and this is

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Speaker 3: not obviously Kensington, Chelsea.

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Speaker 6: You're in Kensington. Yeah, very different, right? What are the

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Speaker 6: main differences? Would you say?

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Speaker 5: Uh?

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Speaker 1: I mean less stork alleys.

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Speaker 3: Even walking to your flat, I was like whoa. I

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Speaker 3: was very well aware that I was the only woman

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Speaker 3: with loads of construction workers everywhere, And I don't think

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Speaker 3: you ever feel particularly alone in Kensington. Yeah, everybody well,

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Speaker 3: right off of High Street, Kensington.

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Speaker 2: So I also think it's so different here on a

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Speaker 2: weekend because this is the financial district just in there.

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Speaker 2: So during the week therah lots of white men and

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Speaker 2: suits walking around, and then on the weekend not even

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Speaker 2: a coffee shop is open.

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Speaker 1: This is also the same neighborhood where John Toll spent

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Speaker 1: much of his time. There was a Quaker meeting house nearby,

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Speaker 1: and there was also the apothecary where Tall bought medicines

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Speaker 1: and poison, and it was also home to the coffee

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Speaker 1: shop that he headed to the morning after he murdered

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Speaker 1: his mistress, Sarah Hart.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't unusual for people with highest standings to come

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Speaker 2: around this area, but there was a massive contrast between

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Speaker 2: the intense poverty that was around here.

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Speaker 1: Would the Quaker meeting house would.

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Speaker 2: Be there of this, so the Quaker meeting house was

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Speaker 2: originally somewhere else, and then during the Great Fire of London,

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Speaker 2: which was sixteen sixty six something like that, it was

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Speaker 2: burned down along with you know, a large percentage of London,

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Speaker 2: and then it moved to They got a bit of

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Speaker 2: money and they set it up here I don't know

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Speaker 2: why they set.

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Speaker 4: It up here.

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Speaker 2: Quaker community obviously was very small, and it was shrinking

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Speaker 2: as well in John's time, which.

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Speaker 4: Is perhaps another part of where his arrogance came from,

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Speaker 4: thinking that he was.

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Speaker 2: One of the few important people and that he could

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Speaker 2: never be banished because they the pool was shrinking quite

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Speaker 2: significantly and they were concerned about that.

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Speaker 1: Megan, I worked to find each of the old addresses,

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Speaker 1: starting with the Quaker meetinghouse.

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Speaker 3: What do you think.

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Speaker 4: It was literally where we are standing now, But I'm

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Speaker 4: just trying to.

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Speaker 3: Cross Quaker's house.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was literally across their own from where he lived.

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Speaker 5: Can you google her.

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Speaker 2: I'm just intrigued whether that was there at the time.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so this was here, so he he ran right

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Speaker 3: over here, he walked over here.

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Speaker 6: This was the meeting house.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, so you think it's right here, then the apothecary.

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Speaker 2: Right, So if we turn left, just across here will

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Speaker 2: be where the apothecary sound.

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Speaker 6: So it is.

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Speaker 4: This building here opposite Boots. The one just here is

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Speaker 4: where the apothecary was.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, the new, brand new, swanky building there was where

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Speaker 2: the apothecary was at the big.

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Speaker 6: Eighty nine bishops.

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Speaker 1: Gate, okay, and then the coffee house. Remember the morning

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Speaker 1: after the murder, after he had taken the train from

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Speaker 1: Slough to central London. This is where he had come.

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Speaker 2: His The Jerusalem Coffee House, which is where he went

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Speaker 2: to a lot is kind of in that cluster of

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Speaker 2: buildings there. It's not there anymore, but it was down

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Speaker 2: an alleyway, so that's where apparently he was quite a.

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Speaker 6: Lonesome person in there.

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Speaker 2: It was a lot of people meeting and chatting and

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Speaker 2: doing business and he would kind of sit on his

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Speaker 2: own reader's papers, show face a bit, which doesn't surprise me.

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Speaker 1: Actually, And this is where the Metropolitan Police finally tracked

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Speaker 1: down John Tall in eighteen forty five.

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Speaker 2: It's reminiscent, especially being around this area and in Whitechapel

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Speaker 2: and East London of the time. It's just before Jack

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Speaker 2: the Ripper. It's got very weirdly Sweeny Todd vibes. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: he definitely does. He does become part of that wider

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Speaker 2: narrative of seemingly trustworthy men who in the shadows and

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Speaker 2: in the dark, do very bad things.

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Speaker 1: Police in London in eighteen forty five accused John Tall

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Speaker 1: of murdering Sarah Hart, the mother of his two children,

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Speaker 1: said that Tall left her on the floor of her

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Speaker 1: cottage in salt Hill, dead from prussic acid poisoning, while

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Speaker 1: their son and daughter slept in the next room. John

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Speaker 1: Tall had almost escaped on the train from Slough to Paddington,

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Speaker 1: but the police were able to receive his description thanks

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Speaker 1: to the electric telegraph. And now that man who professed

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Speaker 1: to be a pious, devoted Quaker was in jail awaiting trial.

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Speaker 1: His defense attorney was a man named Fitzroy Kelly. You'll

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Speaker 1: hear more about him. Shortly, as Kelly met with his client,

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Speaker 1: he explained to Tall that doctors had found a fatal

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Speaker 1: dose of prussic acid and Sarah Hard's body, that they

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Speaker 1: knew he had bought two bottles and he had brought

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Speaker 1: them with him to Slough the night of her death.

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Speaker 1: That seems pretty damning, I asked author Carrol Baxter if

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Speaker 1: Tall immediately confessed at that point.

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Speaker 7: Oh no, no, not at all. He pleaded not guilty

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Speaker 7: to the crime.

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Speaker 1: So there would be a murder trial, a very famous

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Speaker 1: one because it featured the details of an illicit affair,

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Speaker 1: illegitimate children, a double life, and an unwonted troublesome lover.

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Speaker 1: The Victorian press loved it. I asked crime historian Angela

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Speaker 1: Buckley about how the trial would be conducted.

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Speaker 8: It was actually tried in Aylesbury as part of the assizes,

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Speaker 8: and they were the biggest regional courts.

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Speaker 1: Would this have been a jury trial, Yes.

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Speaker 8: It would have been a jury So they took place

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Speaker 8: twice a year in the county town.

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Speaker 5: So twice.

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Speaker 9: They only meet twice a year.

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Speaker 6: To do trials.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 10: Do you just sit in jail for six months if

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Speaker 10: if you're.

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Speaker 8: A lucky yees Usually they usually took place in yeah,

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Speaker 8: March in October, So if you were yeah, absolutely, you'd

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Speaker 8: be yeah completely.

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Speaker 1: As the prosecutor and the defense attorney reviewed the case,

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Speaker 1: each side had to pick a strategy. The crown believed

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Speaker 1: that it had enough evidence to prove that Sarah Hart

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Speaker 1: had become a threat to John Tall's life as a Quaker.

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Speaker 1: She had demanded more money, more time, and she was

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Speaker 1: tired of hiding in a cottage. The narrative was compelling,

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Speaker 1: but Angela Buckley says that this was essentially a circumstantial case.

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Speaker 8: I say it was pretty typical in early policing and

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Speaker 8: in detective practice at the time, there's very much the

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Speaker 8: reliance on circumstantial evidence, particularly things like his clothing. Also,

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Speaker 8: I read that they found some paper with his handwriting

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Speaker 8: on some Bible verses in Sarah Hart's cottage. The witness statements,

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Speaker 8: they're absolutely key to policing at this time.

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Speaker 1: So this was becoming a stronger case even without a

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Speaker 1: witness who saw him pour the poison in his beer.

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Speaker 8: You know, they knew about his movements, the presence of

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Speaker 8: the prussic acid, which seems to eventually been conclusive.

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Speaker 1: But the chain of custody of that poison was a problem.

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Speaker 1: How to prove that he gave her the poison, that

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Speaker 1: she didn't just take it herself.

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Speaker 8: Of course, without DNA testing of modern methods, there is

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Speaker 8: actually no proof of him putting the poison into the

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Speaker 8: receptacle and handing her the poison chalice as it were.

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Speaker 1: Fingerprints on the beer glass might have been useful, but

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Speaker 1: fingerprinting would not be used in forensics for another twenty

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Speaker 1: years or so. Even then, John Tall could claim that

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Speaker 1: he and Sarah did drink together, then he left, and

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Speaker 1: then she took her own life. Prosecutors struggled to piece

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Speaker 1: together the case, and the huge amount of media attention

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Speaker 1: didn't help. The press was enamored with the story.

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Speaker 8: I think because of who he was, because he was

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Speaker 8: well known in terms of that he was middle class.

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Speaker 8: You know, had he been a guy from the slums

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Speaker 8: somewhere that nobody knew, you know, in the middle of London,

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Speaker 8: nobody would have ever found him. But the fact that

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Speaker 8: he was known, he was a respected man in his community,

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Speaker 8: was a member Quakers.

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Speaker 1: And true crime was big news, especially in the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 8: This is unusual, this kind of crime, and it was

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Speaker 8: all very much sensationalized by the press. But yeah, I

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Speaker 8: think people lived in a state of fear, so you know,

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Speaker 8: that didn't help.

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Speaker 1: As John Tole sat in court, he listened to his

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Speaker 1: defense attorney, Fitzroy Kelly. Megah Edward says that Kelly was

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Speaker 1: clever and he would likely be a good asset for Tall.

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Speaker 2: Fitzro Kelly is John Toole's defense lawyer. He is also

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Speaker 2: a Tory politician and a judge. He was well respected.

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Speaker 2: He was quite on the scene as it were.

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Speaker 1: Kelly assured him that all of the Crown's evidence was

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Speaker 1: circumstantial and weak. He said. They couldn't place the prussic

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Speaker 1: acid with him directly.

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Speaker 7: They found it in her body, they didn't find it

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Speaker 7: in her home.

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Speaker 5: They didn't find any on him.

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Speaker 1: The Crown called several witnesses to the stand to fit

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Speaker 1: its story that Tall carried poison to Sarah Hart's house

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Speaker 1: that day.

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Speaker 7: They had the report from a pharmacist that he had

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Speaker 7: come in on that day, again identified because of his

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Speaker 7: Quaker attire. They had the report from the pharmacist said

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Speaker 7: he'd gone into the pharmacy that day and got a

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Speaker 7: file of prussic acid. He went into the pharmacy again

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Speaker 7: the next day and said that he had dropped and

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Speaker 7: broken it and got another one.

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Speaker 1: A friend of Sarah Hart's also took the stand. That

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Speaker 1: friend told the court that several months before, Sarah had

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Speaker 1: been sick after drinking porter after a visit from Tall.

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Speaker 1: This revelation was startling. Still, his wife, Sarah Applebee, stood

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Speaker 1: by him, and that brings us to another question about

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Speaker 1: his first wife, Mary. She was dying of tuberculosis, and

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Speaker 1: before Tall hired Sarah Hart, he himself was treating Mary.

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Speaker 1: I asked Hall's great great granddaughter, Hillary Fox if she

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Speaker 1: had ever been suspicious considering John Tall's history.

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Speaker 9: You were saying a couple of things about that had

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Speaker 9: not really heard. You thought that there was research that

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Speaker 9: the potential was that he might have wanted to rid

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Speaker 9: himself of Mary.

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Speaker 11: Well, it's only that there are hints about in various research.

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Speaker 11: Because she became ill and he was treating her. She

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Speaker 11: wasn't Quaker, which is what she wanted in the end,

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Speaker 11: So he may have been giving us completely the wrong things.

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Speaker 11: We never know about that.

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Speaker 1: Hillary's theory could be true. Perhaps he really did have

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Speaker 1: an affair with Sarah Hart before Mary died. John Tall

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Speaker 1: was sneaky and opportunistic for sure, but he also brought

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Speaker 1: Mary back and forth between England and Australia when he

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Speaker 1: didn't have to crime story and Nell Darby has studied

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Speaker 1: the case. She says that John Tall seemed to really

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Speaker 1: love his first wife.

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Speaker 12: When she died, there was a notice in the Quaker

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Speaker 12: publication where I think he wrote it.

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Speaker 1: Tall wrote in the death notice that Mary had put

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Speaker 1: up with a lot from him.

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Speaker 12: He's had this stressful life, not through any fault of

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Speaker 12: her own, but because he's put her through all this

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Speaker 12: stress and she's stuck by him. And kind of supported him.

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Speaker 12: And it's unusual for me to read something that's kind

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Speaker 12: of seems so genuinely moving. So either he was a

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Speaker 12: very good actor, or he did have a lot of

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Speaker 12: love and respect for her, but then obviously didn't find

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Speaker 12: that again afterwards.

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Speaker 1: By the time John Tall married Sarah Appleby, he was

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Speaker 1: several years into his affair with Sarah Hart. So he

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Speaker 1: might have been happily married to Mary, but he was

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Speaker 1: never faithful to his second wife. Despite it all, Sarah

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Speaker 1: Appleby must have really loved him, or at least she

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Speaker 1: was a steadfast Quaker who demonstrated the Quaker tenant that

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Speaker 1: Tall never did. After the Crown prosecutor concluded his case,

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Speaker 1: Fitzroy Kelly stood up from the table. So if I

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Speaker 1: were him, or if I were the defense attorney, I

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Speaker 1: would say, even if they were able to prove that,

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Speaker 1: I would say, she asked me to get it for her.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea why you can't prove that I

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Speaker 1: put it in her drink or did anything. I had

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Speaker 1: just told her I was never going to marry her.

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Speaker 1: I also told her I wasn't going to be able

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Speaker 1: to give her any more shot support. She was suicidal,

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Speaker 1: I left and that's the last time I saw her.

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Speaker 1: That's the perfect defense. You cannot disprove that in any way.

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Speaker 7: There's no witnesses, absolutely, And the fact that he was

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Speaker 7: dressed in his quake agum.

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Speaker 5: He was going out in daylight.

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Speaker 7: Wasn't like he was going there at ten o'clock at

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Speaker 7: night when no one was around.

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Speaker 5: He wasn't sneaking around. He had the money on him.

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Speaker 7: This there was a very strong offense if fitzro Kelly had.

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Speaker 1: Used it, but Kelly didn't use it because John Toll

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Speaker 1: had changed his story to investigators.

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Speaker 7: Now, John Tole didn't help himself because he did end

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Speaker 7: up admitting to having been at her place that day

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Speaker 7: and that she took something. He said she took something

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Speaker 7: and threw herself on the ground and he left in shock.

289
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Speaker 7: So he probably shouldn't have made that a mission.

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Speaker 8: There wasn't much of a defense really, but they still

291
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Speaker 8: had to kind of prove or try to prove that

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Speaker 8: he had committed the murder.

293
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Speaker 1: Now, fitzroy Kelly had to explain how Sarah Hart got

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Speaker 1: that prussic acid in her system because Toll says that

295
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Speaker 1: he never gave her any of it. That would have

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Speaker 1: been suspicious.

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Speaker 7: Well, that was admission made under the other lawyers, who

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Speaker 7: basically skidaddled when they realized it was going to trial.

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Speaker 7: It is rather extraordinary that this man, who was so

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Speaker 7: highly esteemed should make such a poor showing in terms

301
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Speaker 7: of the defense.

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Speaker 1: Here's why Carol says that Fitzroy Kelly did not do

303
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,919
Speaker 1: well in court. He had to admit that Tall was

304
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,000
Speaker 1: in the cottage, but admitting that Tall gave her the

305
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,200
Speaker 1: proseic acid would have sealed his client's fate. So how

306
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:13,120
Speaker 1: did she get it?

307
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:18,760
Speaker 2: She had eaten apple pips, which contain apple seeds, sorry

308
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:23,119
Speaker 2: apple seeds for Americans, the things you find in the

309
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Speaker 2: core of an apple. That, yeah, that's what she'd They

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Speaker 2: contain very very small amounts of cyanide, and that she

311
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Speaker 2: had eaten enough of them to kill herself.

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Speaker 1: What she took her own life by eating apple seeds?

313
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Speaker 1: I asked boys and expert doctor Neil Bradbury about all

314
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Speaker 1: of this.

315
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Speaker 13: Sanide is obviously a favorite of Agatha Christie and is

316
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:50,159
Speaker 13: something that I think most people have heard about. Interestingly,

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Speaker 13: most of us eat cyanide every day. Cyanide is found

318
00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:00,719
Speaker 13: in apple pips, for example, and anytime we swallow apple pips,

319
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Speaker 13: we are ingesting a small amount of cyanide.

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Speaker 1: It turns out that this story is famous not just

321
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:11,480
Speaker 1: because of the telegraph. It's famous for Fitzroy Kelly's dubious defense.

322
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Speaker 13: There is a story that is associated with a defence

323
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Speaker 13: lawyer who used that defense that the murder victim had

324
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Speaker 13: in fact died not from poisoning and being poisoned with

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Speaker 13: cyanide that had been put into a beer bottle, but

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Speaker 13: had in fact inadvertently died from eating apples and swallowing

327
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Speaker 13: the seeds of apples.

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Speaker 1: That might make sense. Most people would have apples handy,

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Speaker 1: and if Sarah Hart knew that eating them might have

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Speaker 1: been fatal, she could have consumed them out of despair.

331
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Speaker 1: I suppose this defense could have created reasonable doubt, But

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Speaker 1: Neil Bradbury says that no, the apple pip defense was

333
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Speaker 1: not reasonable at all.

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Speaker 13: It was determined that you did need several fouls of

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Speaker 13: apple seeds or apple pips to succumb to cyanide poisoning.

336
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Speaker 13: The defense attorney at the time was Sir Fitzroy Kelly,

337
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,439
Speaker 13: who after this case became known as apple Pips Kelly

338
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Speaker 13: for his failed defense of his client for cyanide poisoning

339
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:21,320
Speaker 13: apple pips.

340
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Speaker 1: Kelly. What an embarrassing nickname for an esteemed attorney. Anyway,

341
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,359
Speaker 1: the discovery that it would take thousands of apple pips

342
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,120
Speaker 1: to kill Sarah Hart might have sealed John Toll's fate.

343
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Speaker 2: It just made a laughing stock of the case a

344
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Speaker 2: little bit, which is a shame because I think up

345
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Speaker 2: until that point, just on paper at least, not judging

346
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,960
Speaker 2: on John Tall's character or how he appeared in court,

347
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Speaker 2: it was fairly tight.

348
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Speaker 6: I think there was every chance that he could have

349
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Speaker 6: got off with it.

350
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Speaker 1: Both John Toll and his attorney might have doomed him.

351
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Speaker 1: He didn't take the stand because the law in those

352
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Speaker 1: days forbade accused persons to testify on their own behalf.

353
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Speaker 1: It was assumed that they would say anything, including why,

354
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Speaker 1: to secure an acquittal. Fitzroy Kelly finally reached the end

355
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,679
Speaker 1: of his argument. He hoped to leave the jury with

356
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 1: feelings of empathy for John Tall. He read aloud a

357
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Speaker 1: letter written from John Tall's wife to him the same

358
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Speaker 1: day as the murder. Sarah Appleby wrote, my loved one,

359
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Speaker 1: the year has opened with a lovely day. I hope

360
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Speaker 1: it is an omen of the future which awaits us.

361
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 1: Fitzroy Kelly scanned the jury and asked, could any man,

362
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Speaker 1: after receiving such a letter commit an act which would

363
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:45,959
Speaker 1: make his wife a widow? Now each side had rested

364
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 1: their case, and the question to the jury seemed simple.

365
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,360
Speaker 1: Was Sarah Hart's death the result of suicide or murder?

366
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Speaker 1: The jury discussed the case and quickly reached a verdict.

367
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 1: John Tall stood at the table as the judge read

368
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 1: it aloud. He braced himself. He seemed concerned. Was it

369
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 1: murder or suicide? Murder? Said the jury. John Tall had

370
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,920
Speaker 1: killed Sarah Hart on New Year's Day in eighteen forty five.

371
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,879
Speaker 1: John Tall was shackled and taken away to await the gallows.

372
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Speaker 1: Murder was an automatic death sentence, and there was little

373
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Speaker 1: hope for Toll.

374
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Speaker 7: Now he has found guilty and sentenced to death. And

375
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Speaker 7: because there is no criminal appeals court, the only thing

376
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Speaker 7: they can do is.

377
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Speaker 5: Petition the Queen.

378
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Speaker 1: Do they do that?

379
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 7: They do his defense barristers petition the Queen, The Quakers,

380
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 7: petition the Queen.

381
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Speaker 5: Even the foreman of.

382
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 7: The jurytion the coin for not his the overturning of

383
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 7: his sentence, but reprieved to life transportation. They were happy

384
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 7: to send him out to the colonies and dump their

385
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,639
Speaker 7: problems on the colonies, send him back where he came from.

386
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Speaker 1: Just like they did when he forged that check decades earlier.

387
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Speaker 1: So did they set aside the death sentence.

388
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 5: Despite money and power.

389
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 7: The fact that he was a returned convict probably told

390
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 7: against him. So there was going to be no reprieve,

391
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 7: and one that has to question whether an ordinary citizen

392
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 7: might have had a better result from all his petitions

393
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 7: or all the petitions sent in his name.

394
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,400
Speaker 2: His track record was objectively bad. He was not someone

395
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 2: that the Quaker Church or the British upper class Victorian

396
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 2: society wanted to put on a pedestal. That track record

397
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 2: probably led to a bet of an assassination of character

398
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 2: in court. That pad, with the unfortunately ludicrous defense that

399
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,360
Speaker 2: ended up being the apple pep story, made the circumstantial

400
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 2: evidence seem overwhelmingly compelling.

401
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 1: John Tall had proven that he was not able to

402
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: be reformed. Behind the mask was hidden a selfish coward,

403
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 1: a monster who murdered the mother of his children. But

404
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 1: that revelation seems unbelievable to some current members of the family,

405
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: like Hillary's twin brother.

406
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 6: The whole thing circumstantial.

407
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 2: I do think that there's some whispers in the family

408
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 2: now that he was innocent.

409
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: Hillary's brother has been suspicious of the verdict because something

410
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: interesting happened after the verdict. John Tall reportedly confessed, but

411
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: it was never made public.

412
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 11: I'm not sure he's convinced that because there was never

413
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 11: a confession publicly found, because the man he wrote whatever

414
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 11: he wrote down to prison chaplain would never hand it over.

415
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 2: Thing that we have our newspaper articles, a number of

416
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: them which say that John Toall wrote a full confession

417
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 2: admitting to the murder of Sarah Hart and also the

418
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 2: attempted murder of Sarah Hart three months earlier in September,

419
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 2: that he gave this to a reverend just before he

420
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 2: was hanged, and it was his only wish that this

421
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: was not released to the public, and the reverend, for

422
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 2: one reason or another, abided by that John's wishes. It

423
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 2: was never released, it was never shown, No one knows

424
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: where it was. It's supposedly a written confession.

425
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 1: Hilary Fox's brother says that a public confession instead of

426
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: a rumored private one, could actually have convinced him of

427
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: John Tall's guilt because aside from that, the evidence wasn't

428
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 1: all that compelling. Hillary disagrees that.

429
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 11: Maybe it's been a question about maybe he didn't do it,

430
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 11: but I'm afraid the evidence is pretty conclusive. I think

431
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 11: he admitted it to Sarah, at least she when he

432
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 11: was found guilt, she realized that he must have done it,

433
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 11: and it was a great shock to her because she

434
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 11: should buy him all the work.

435
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: His wife, Sarah Appleby, was obviously stunned. How could she

436
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 1: accept that her husband not only had a mistress but

437
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 1: also had children with her and then killed her, and

438
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 1: then she had to deal with the realization that he

439
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: had planned it. Angela Buckley and Meg Edwards say that

440
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: would be hard for a wife to accept.

441
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 8: I kind of think as well that if he'd gone

442
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 8: there and they'd had an argument and suddenly he'd been

443
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 8: triggered more, I don't think he would have poisoned her.

444
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Speaker 8: I think he would have hit her over the head

445
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 8: with something or grabbed a sharp knife.

446
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: But he didn't. He premeditated her murder. He must have

447
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 1: hoped that would mean it was less detectable either way,

448
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: whether he had committed violence through force or through poison.

449
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 1: This was a case of domestic violence.

450
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 8: And there are so many of those in the nineteenth century,

451
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 8: and I studied many of them, and it's very.

452
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 6: Rare poisoning case.

453
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 8: They usually a razor, a knife, hammer, I mean, horrible cases.

454
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 8: But it's usually whatever is to hand is the murder weapon.

455
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 8: It's very unusual for it to be poison because that's

456
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 8: just hard to do, isn't it.

457
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 2: At this further moment, well, I don't think it was

458
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 2: a moment of madness. I don't think it was descent

459
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: into madness. I think it was almost like a business transaction.

460
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: She no longer served a purpose to him. She was

461
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 2: getting a bit too dangerous. The thing that made most

462
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 2: sense to him was to get rid of him. He

463
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 2: thought we'd be able to slip away into the night

464
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 2: and never be found again.

465
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: But it's this explanation that makes John Tall so much

466
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: more sinister. We all lose our temper, we all act

467
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: towards people in the heat of the moment in ways

468
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: we regret later, But very few of us coolly concoct

469
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: a plan to take someone out, prepare each step, and

470
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: then actually go through with it. When John Tall killed

471
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 1: Sarah Hart. He had revealed the kind of person that

472
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: he really was, and likely who he had always been,

473
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: no matter what kind of clothes he wore. On March

474
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: twenty eighth of eighteen forty five, John Toll was led

475
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: to the gallows before a crowd of more than two

476
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: thousand people.

477
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 7: The lead up to the gallows, the jail governor said

478
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 7: he was the most extraordinary man.

479
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 5: They all ended up loving him in.

480
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 7: The jail, which is against I guess it comes back

481
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 7: to that charm question which he raised, which I'd never

482
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 7: really thought about before.

483
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 9: People liked him.

484
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 7: He had something in him that meant people liked him,

485
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 7: and he was very kind to everyone, and he thanked people,

486
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 7: and they really wanted him to get a reprieve Because

487
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 7: of this.

488
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 1: He never referred to Sarah Hart's death while he was

489
00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: in jail awaiting execution.

490
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 7: It's as if he had the ability to push that

491
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 7: sort of thing completely aside and keep on with his life.

492
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 5: It was very strange.

493
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: As John Tall stood on the platform of the gallows,

494
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: overlooking the large crowd, he began to whisper to the executioner.

495
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 7: When he was up alone on the gallows and wanting

496
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 7: to pray and the executioner just kept him lifting them

497
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 7: up and said, no need for that at this point.

498
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 7: And he was trying to drop and pray and raise

499
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 7: his hands to the prey, and he was crying out

500
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 7: to God.

501
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: Toall's vulnerability seemed to incense the crowd.

502
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 5: It was awful, absolutely awful.

503
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 7: So the executions in those days were called the hanging matches.

504
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 5: It rather than reminds me of the movie Hunger Games.

505
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 7: Everyone went to watch these hanging matches from all over

506
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 7: the country. It was a live entertainment reality TV show.

507
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: So what did they want to see.

508
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 7: They wanted a good execution. They wanted someone tough. They

509
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 7: wanted someone make these, you know, throw away humorous lines

510
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 7: to the crowd, or they wanted them to confess, or

511
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 7: they wanted something. But instead they had this tiny man

512
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 7: they're trying to pray, beseeching God to forgive him and

513
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 7: all of that.

514
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 5: And then, of.

515
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 7: Course the execution itself didn't quite go to play.

516
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: That's an understatement. When the hangman was given the signal,

517
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: he released the platform beneath Tole's feet and he dropped,

518
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: but not far.

519
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 6: Enough, so the length of the rope was wrong.

520
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 2: All the calculations were just a little bit off, and

521
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: what should have been a very quick method of death

522
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: became quite the public spectacle, which it was certainly set

523
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 2: up for as well. There are lots of people in Square,

524
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: and it took a very long time for him to die.

525
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: John Hall was swinging below and struggling to breathe.

526
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 2: I think people were pulling on his legs in the end,

527
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: just to just a deerman. It did, It did, which

528
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: is horrific, absolutely horrific, and not what anyone deserves.

529
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 6: Obviously.

530
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: Even so, after an extended time, John Tall was finally dead.

531
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: It took a while for him to die, just like

532
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: Sarah Hart's painful death by poisoning. Ironic. The legacy he

533
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: left behind is complicated. He had a successful, productive life

534
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: in a penal colony, an unlikely place for anyone to thrive.

535
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: Tall started the Quaker community there, which inevitably helped so

536
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: many people. He created much needed pharmacies, he expanded his businesses,

537
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: he helped create a supportive community. And yet John Tall

538
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: was a killer, a shyster, a cheater. Maybe not a

539
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: bad person to the core, but someone who consistently did

540
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: bad things while simultaneously aspiring to appear pious. He supposedly

541
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: confessed to a reverend before his hanging, trying to atone

542
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: for his sin, but he was shunned by the Quakers

543
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: at the end. They had no empathy for him. I

544
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: asked Geryl Fox about that confession, the one that was

545
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: never made public.

546
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 14: Maybe had a conscience, It could have been a conscience,

547
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 14: But I don't think when people get into that state

548
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 14: they have a conscience. I think they're just single minded

549
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 14: and they just focus on what they're doing without realizing

550
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 14: the consequence of people around and the effect other people

551
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 14: seeing it. Well, you tell one like you end up

552
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 14: with dozens of lies to cover the lies that you've

553
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 14: covered in front of them, and so it goes on.

554
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 14: It's very, very difficult to analyse.

555
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: Meg Edwards also considers John Tall a bit of a mystery.

556
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: I don't believe that he was calculating from such a

557
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: young age to see the only thing in Quakerism is

558
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: a good cover. I think it was a way of life.

559
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 2: I think it was something that really appealed to him.

560
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,719
Speaker 2: Increasingly as the years went on, it started to twig

561
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 2: a little bit that actually this is quite a good

562
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:23,959
Speaker 2: cover for certain things.

563
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: Mega Edwards thinks that John Toall's story is worth remembering,

564
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: even if it ended sadly for so many people.

565
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 2: He was almost definitely well in terms of being caught

566
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: the first Quaker to commit a murder, So this just

567
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 2: wasn't something that was seen before him. So I think

568
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: there was definitely an element of arrogance in him, that

569
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: this was a gonna, yeah, save him.

570
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: The life of a man with a double life is

571
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: always complicated and often ends in misery. Was John Tall

572
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: drawn to the Quakers for redemption of a troubled soul

573
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: or were they protection for an evil heart? Hillary Fox

574
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: and Edwards aren't sure.

575
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 11: I think he was a very complicated, multifested character. I

576
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 11: really do. Maybe the poverty he was born into, not

577
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 11: having guidance when he was young, who knows, But it

578
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 11: is a shame because he didn't need to do all

579
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 11: this poisoning. It was a great shame.

580
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 5: Really.

581
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 2: It is such an interesting thing that he's so self

582
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: sabotaging all the time, and he makes the same mistakes

583
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 2: over and over again. And I think that's the best

584
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 2: shown in the fact that this, yeah, wasn't the first

585
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 2: major crime he committed. I don't think it's reasonable for

586
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: us to say that he was entirely driven by business

587
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: and entirely driven by things that made sense to him,

588
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 2: because a lot of his actions don't make sense at all.

589
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: We will never know what John's Hall was thinking during

590
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: all of this. But Sarah Hart's murderers sped up the

591
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: use and presence of a technology that would later become

592
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: essential in society. So there was a broader cultural silver

593
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: lining that out of the story. But Sarah Hart's life

594
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: certainly wasn't worth sacrificing. And there's more than one victim

595
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: in this story because her murder had a ripple effect

596
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: across both families.

597
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 2: There's more than one victim in this story. There's a

598
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 2: whole host of victims, his children as well. And then

599
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 2: those ripple effects that go throughout society of the people

600
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 2: who have to look after the children who are left behind,

601
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 2: and then that generational trauma that kind of passes down

602
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 2: through the families. Sarah Hart, she's a voice that's been lost.

603
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 2: There's no way of finding that back apart from chloring

604
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: back things like her writing, filing and official you know,

605
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: there's a tiny glimpse of the kind of person that

606
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,919
Speaker 2: she was. And I think Reframing the narrative to recognize

607
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 2: the women who were victims of domestic violence is incredibly important,

608
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 2: but is a very very difficult task.

609
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: Sarah Hart had spent almost a decade living in the

610
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: shadows with her children, probably partially ashamed and likely very angry.

611
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: When she finally demanded more rights, John Tall killed her.

612
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: Meg Edward says that clearly Sarah deserved better.

613
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 2: I can't help but think she had a really sad life.

614
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: I think, aside from the murder, she gave up everything

615
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 2: to be the other woman, and to be the secret woman,

616
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 2: and to sit at home all day with two young

617
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: children waiting for this man that presumably she trusted and

618
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 2: presumably she loved, to come and make sure that you

619
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: know she's taken care of emotionally and financially.

620
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 6: I think that's a very sad life.

621
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: She was clearly a savvy woman and someone who had

622
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 2: a self respect to want more for herself, and that

623
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: was completely ripped from her.

624
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: Meg believes that Taul's wife, Sarah Appleby, likely suspected that

625
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,240
Speaker 1: her husband was guilty.

626
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 2: She stood by his side, judging by her later actions

627
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: and also from all accounts, the kind of person that

628
00:35:58,200 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 2: she was.

629
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 6: I'm leaning towards the.

630
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 2: Fact that she knew that he did it, and that

631
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 2: she was doing what she needed to do as a

632
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: wife to stand by her husband.

633
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 6: But I do think she I think she knew. I

634
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 6: think she knew he was guilty.

635
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: Hillary says that Sarah Appleby was an extraordinary woman, especially

636
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: in contrast to her husband.

637
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 11: Obviously not proud that he's a relation, but he was

638
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 11: just a relation by chance. And the other side of

639
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 11: the coin with Sarah's family, they were very honest, god

640
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 11: fearing people and made good after the hanging, moving to

641
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,439
Speaker 11: a new area, and she set up her oldest son

642
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 11: with a farm and they all lived there, and all

643
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 11: the descendants worked hard, did well, and more honest and

644
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 11: lived as quake shit.

645
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 10: So he didn't seem to affect. Obviously, there's shame and

646
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 10: the loss of a father and the loss of a

647
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 10: husband when he happened, But ultimately his wife and his

648
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 10: children moved on and created their own They didn't.

649
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 11: She must have been a very strong woman. She didn't

650
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 11: let it blight her life. She was a cunny lady.

651
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 11: She invested it well. How her family after that thrived.

652
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: I love finding the good in these stories. The good

653
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: people who ultimately do the right thing. And luckily we

654
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 1: have one Sarah Appleby Tall.

655
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:34,280
Speaker 2: So Sarah Tall financially supported the two children, Alfred and Sarah.

656
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: Make says that Sarah Hart's daughter died at a young age,

657
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: but Alfred was last seen on the senses as being

658
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: sixteen or seventeen.

659
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: She sent them money the rest of their life, which

660
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: is I just feel very sad about that. To have

661
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 2: her life was undoubtedly completely turned on its head. To

662
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: be walking around with a convicted murderer and a hanged

663
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: murderer as your husband, and then to go out of

664
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: your wa to pay for his illegitimate children to you know,

665
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 2: not be lost to history or sent to a workhouse

666
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 2: or worse in those days is amazing.

667
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 9: It's an extraordinary bit of history because they're just very

668
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 9: many people who would do that, And what a wonderful

669
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 9: foundation for the family to be built upon.

670
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, I think that's perhaps that's where the fascination

671
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: and the separation of this story for the family now

672
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 2: comes from, and that he was one part of the pun.

673
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: But he was one rotten apple amongst a bunch of

674
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: probably genuinely very good people, very philanthropic people and devout

675
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: Quakers as well, not just opportunists, and I think that

676
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 2: those qualities immensely outshadow the murder and the darkness that

677
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: he bought there.

678
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this season of tenfold More Wicked

679
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: On Exactly Right. We're going on on hiatus, but check

680
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: back next Monday for the trailer for our new season

681
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: of Wicked Words. As always, thanks for coming back each week.

682
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: We love our listeners. If you love a good, real

683
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Speaker 1: ghost story, my audio book The Ghost Club is available

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your audiobooks. I can't wait to tell

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Speaker 1: you the real story about the world's most famous ghost hunter,

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Speaker 1: who was the head of the world's most famous ghost

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Speaker 1: club and how he investigated England's most famous haunted house.

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Speaker 1: Please also check out my book All That Is Wicked,

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Speaker 1: which is a deep dive into the criminal mind. This

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Speaker 1: has been an exactly right tenfold more Media production Producers

691
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: Jason Whaling, Alexis and Morosi and Natalie Wrinn. Editors Jason

692
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: Whaling and Kate Winkler Dawson. Researcher Kate Winkler Dawson, sound

693
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,520
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Speaker 1: a historical crime that could use some attention, especially if

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