1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heeart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed as 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today's guest is 10 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: Dmitri Gainness. Dmitri, I have to say, among all our guests, 11 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: he's got to have one of the most fascinating lives 12 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: I have ever encountered. I've known Dmitri felt fifteen years. 13 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: We've been friends for quite a while. If you look 14 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: around on what these are the labels you see to 15 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: describe Dmitri, right, you know, activist, anarchist, community organizer, poet 16 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: and musician. The face for many people of I be 17 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: gained treatment. He's a harm reduction worker, he's a drug 18 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: positive form activist. He's a former heroin and cocaine addict. Uh, 19 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: you know, spiritual healer in the weaky tradition. What can 20 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: I say? Dmitri, thanks so much for coming on Psychoactive. 21 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: I think when you and I first met it must 22 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: have been a fifteen years ago, you know, And I've 23 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: been intrigued by I be Gain since the nineteen nineties. 24 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: And then I meet you and you're this charming guy, 25 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: and you explained to me what you're up to and 26 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 1: you're doing, and how it worked for you and all 27 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: this sort of stuff. For those of our listeners who 28 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: don't know, there many people have been addicted to heroin 29 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: other drugs who have just found I began like a 30 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: miraculous cure for them. And then I remember you were 31 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 1: speaking at the two thousand and seven Drug Policy Alliance 32 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: Biennial down in New Orleans. You've given this talk to 33 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: the people away, and I put you up on the 34 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: closing planary and you blew people away again. So with 35 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: I be Game, which I really you know, you moved 36 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: beyond in many ways, But just tell me about your encounter, 37 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: what I be Gain and why this plays such a 38 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: pivotal role in your life for so many years. Sure, 39 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: when we met, I was probably a few years off 40 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: of heroin. And I don't like to use the word 41 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: clean because it connoucts that you know that I was dirty, 42 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: But I begain. I guess I'll just started at sort 43 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: of the beginning of the end of my relationship with 44 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,239 Speaker 1: cocaine and heroin. I was a twenty year I V. 45 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: Drug user, and what started as exploration fun and also 46 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 1: a way to anesthetize my pain took over my life, 47 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: and so I was really sort of towards the end 48 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: of my rope. I went from being an activist and 49 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: an artist and a musician to living in my parents 50 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: basement back and Detroy, to move back from New York 51 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: and doing about two worth of heroin and cocaine today. 52 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: I was on the method of program as well at 53 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: the same time, and I was just waking up every 54 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: day and wanting to kill myself. I was parking cars, 55 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: I was a valet, and I was hustling in various 56 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: different ways to make that too in her books. But 57 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,959 Speaker 1: I've known about I began through the work of activists, 58 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: the work of Dana Biu actually the mad Plastizer, the 59 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: yippie pot activists who will not shut up about ibergine, 60 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: and so I'm back in Detroit in my parents basement. 61 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: My common law wife had died pregnant. My world was 62 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: getting smaller and smaller, and I saw no way out, 63 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: and I reached out actually to Dana, and he hooked 64 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: me up with a few people, and I found myself 65 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: in Holland, just outside of Amsterdam. My family cobbled every 66 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: dime they could get together. They were going through some 67 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: financial issues at the time. And I got there and 68 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: I worked with Sarah Glatt in her farmhouse outside of 69 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: Holland with five kids running around. So I went from 70 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: the streets of Detroit to like, you know, fucking windmills, 71 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: you know, But I took it. It was an incredibly 72 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: difficult experience. I began comes from Eboga. The second layer 73 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: of his root part produces this like psychedelic sawdust. You 74 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: gotta like eat spoonfuls sometimes spoonfuls of sawdust that tastes 75 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: like battery acid. Basically, it's the most bitter, bitter stuff 76 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: in the world. It was incredibly difficult. It was three days. 77 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: There was tons of nausea, tons of vomiting, an incredible 78 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: cathartic visual experience where I saw my past, I saw 79 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: things that were done to me things I did to 80 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: other people, And there was no moment where I just 81 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 1: saw heroin is done. But three days later I came 82 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: out of it with no desire to use, and I 83 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: had no desire to use the entire time that I 84 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: was under that very difficult experience. And from then I 85 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: haven't had a desire to use heroin or cocaine or 86 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: used problematically. I haven't used problematically in going on twenty 87 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: years until next year. Now, I gotta say, I thought 88 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: that's the way it works with everybody, and I found 89 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: out something very different. I should also say this not 90 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: only to see my past. And this is the weird 91 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: ship Ethan, and there's gonna be some weird shack. I 92 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: saw my future. I actually saw that. For instance, I'll 93 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: give you an example that I was going to be 94 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: on this American Life talking about ibergaine, and then you 95 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: didn't actually foresee being on this aide man. No, that 96 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: was those were later d M T experiences, just sitting 97 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 1: out of my apartment smoking it. But you know, the 98 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: whole time, I was burning to bring this to people 99 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: I wanted for folks that didn't have the kind of 100 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: access that I had, and My family weren't rich at all. 101 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: It took them a lot to get me there. But 102 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: for folks that didn't have, you know, a couple of 103 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: thousand bucks to have this experience, Folks who couldn't leave 104 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: because maybe they're undocumented, or maybe they couldn't leave because 105 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: of a record, or you know, they had three kids 106 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: or whatever it was. I was burning with the desire 107 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: to bring that to people and bring awareness. Can you 108 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: just explain to our listeners what is I began? I 109 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: began comes from Iboga, and Iboga is a plant that 110 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: grows in central West Africa, primarily Gabon, that has been 111 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: used for thousands of years, first by Pygmy people and 112 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: then by Bantu people who migrated into the rainforest the 113 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: equatorial rainforest of Gabon, and it's been used at like 114 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: a central sacrament, much like peyote or ayahuasca is used 115 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: in those places. The spiritual technology religion that grew up 116 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: around it is called wheat Wheaty is an ancestral religion 117 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: and animist religion. Wheaty became your practice fifteen twenty years ago, 118 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: right Dmitri, in which you've used to help people heal 119 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: when they're struggling and just say more about that. Sure. 120 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: I mean, look, I'm a Greek boy from Detroit that 121 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: found his way to Gabon. I think I was the 122 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: first iby game provider ever to be initiated. I was 123 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: coming back to the source of my healing. And I 124 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: would walk into a village and I would tell the 125 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: elder I was healed a boga saved my life, and 126 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: she would look at me and sort of like cast 127 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: her hand through the whole village like, yeah, it saved 128 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: us all, you know. So there was this recognition we 129 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: were in the same space. We had gone through this 130 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: difficult process and it had changed our life. What I 131 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: saw there was the performing arts as healing arts around 132 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: dance and music, where multigeneration people would gather and in 133 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: a very sophisticated and thoughtful way and minister this drug 134 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: that every member of the community took, from the baby 135 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: to the old people. There was African music, which is 136 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: trance music. There was dancing, There was healing, and everyone 137 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: had a job, whether it was building the fire, a 138 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: ministering the medicine, leading the ceremony, cooking the food, shaking 139 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: a rattle, dancing, singing. So it was this mutual cooperation 140 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: and participation, and I realized saying all this the view 141 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: that is cultural appropriation, but on a very personal level, 142 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: it was a fucking mind blow. And this is after 143 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: I was detox and I was administering this stuff and 144 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: sort of a secular sort of as an act of 145 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: radical service. But suddenly I had this idea that all 146 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: these elements that have been so important to me, music 147 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: and song and and coming together could be a part 148 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: of the detox. And that was a journey. I went 149 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 1: back to Gabon six or seven times and was initiated 150 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: in other deeper levels of breaty. I got to say, 151 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,599 Speaker 1: I'm a very bad student, but I'm really grateful for 152 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: my teachers and my family there. I ultimately I saw 153 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: that I could draw on my own belief system and 154 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 1: could incorporate aspects of what I learned there, but I 155 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: couldn't ever truly be a part of that as a 156 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: as a Greek boy from Detroit. So I am an 157 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 1: incredible gratitude to the Breety for teaching me so much. 158 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: It's still a part of my life. The way that 159 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: it was brought into the United States, or at least 160 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: made aware to all kinds of people was through its 161 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: anti addictive properties, which was first discovered by my teacher 162 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: and our dear friend, the late Howard lots Off, who 163 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: has a nineteen year old college student who had a 164 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: morphine habit consumed it in sort of a early sixties 165 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: Lower East Side drug scene and realize that he no 166 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: longer was physically dependent on opiates. It eliminates or mitigates withdrawal, 167 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: and most people who use opiates heroin oxycotton, et cetera. 168 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: I began as a hydrochloride just to be crude, as 169 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: coca leaf is to cocaine, right. So it's this white 170 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: powder that can be put in a small capsule and 171 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: you lose some of the properties, but it's a little 172 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: bit more immediate, or a lot more of immediate, and 173 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: doesn't last as long. The reason it's preferred in detoxes, 174 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: like someone detoxing from heroin cannot really eat that much 175 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: of boga or it's very difficult and you might throw 176 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: it up before you get to the point where it's beneficial. 177 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: It's used in the West for detox but I have 178 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: to say that in terms of like small doses, what 179 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: they call the hunter's dose is amazing, great for hanging out, 180 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: great for dancing, great for sex, and also for people 181 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: who aren't addicted, if they want to have an experience, 182 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: a boga is incredible. You talk about microdocing, Yeah, microdocing, 183 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: this whole thing with microdocy kind of to be laughing, 184 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: I say, you don't want to feel it, Like what 185 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: the funk? I don't want to feel it. I want 186 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: to feel my drugs. But yeah, micro docing, and that's 187 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: been used traditionally for thousands of years. They call it 188 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: a hunter's dose because you can go sit in the 189 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: woods and just you know, wait for the possum to 190 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: come by or the porcupine. So all this time that 191 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: you're doing these ivy game sessions, I mean, just explain. 192 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: So what's it like. I haven't done a detox in 193 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: many years. You know, I've done some group stuff that 194 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: wasn't around detox. I used to, you know, work in 195 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: Washington Square Park or Union Square and I have people 196 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: meet me. We do an assessment to see if they 197 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: are healthy enough. Because there are cardio complications that can 198 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: happen with people whose hearts aren't ready for it. There 199 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: might be medical reasons not to do it. There might 200 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: be interactions with other drugs there on. So it's a 201 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: very high threshold compared to all other psychedelics, not only 202 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: in that it's that there could be a medical event, 203 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: but also you need help standing up, walking to the bathroom, 204 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 1: sitting down are very deep. It's a very very heavy experience. 205 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: People get really freaked out about it. Done in a 206 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: medically supportive, not medicalized, but medically supportive setting, it can 207 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: be fairly safe. So what would happen is someone would 208 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: come in about ten to twelve hours without their opiates, 209 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: so they're at the very beginning of withdrawal. And the 210 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: really interesting thing to those of us who are opiate 211 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: users or people who had a dependency on them, was 212 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: that you would take a small amount sort of a testos, 213 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: and you would give it to someone who's just starting 214 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: to feel a withdrawal, just to see how it would 215 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: work with them, and within an hour they're not feeling 216 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: the withdrawal and they're not tripping. Now, there's a bunch 217 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: of different ways of a ministering it, but I'll just 218 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: tell you the old school way of doing it. After 219 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: they would go through that bit and they're not in withdrawal, 220 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: we would begin by doing what we would call a 221 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: flood dose, a series of capsules over the course of 222 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: an hour, and that experience asked anywhere from eight to 223 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: twelve hours, and it may be accompanied by intense vomiting, 224 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: but not vomiting from withdrawal, and most people have gone 225 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: through it can tell the difference. Once you've asked them 226 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: were you and withdraw The answers no, they were vomiting 227 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: because like iowasca and payote, there is a nausea your 228 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: body is rejecting it. That could go on for eight 229 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: to twelve hours. Now, if you were detoxing, that would 230 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 1: be sort of the end of your experience and you 231 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: would go into this period which they called the gray day, 232 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: which would be anywhere from another twelve to forty eight hours. 233 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: We're just sort of laying around, sort of waiting to 234 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: process the experience but also to get your body back. 235 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: So for the prison who's coming in for detox, you 236 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: are asked to take more because your withdrawal will start 237 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: to come back. So over the course of several days 238 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: you're giving booster doses and it might take three to 239 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: four to five days for someone to come out of 240 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: the experience completely. Holding that space is the most intense 241 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: experience that I've ever experience, and I did it hundreds 242 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: and hundreds of time. You have to be in there, 243 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: why people are suffering, why people are processing, why people 244 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: are vomiting, why people might want to start to use 245 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: again or questioning why they use again, And it's an 246 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: incredibly sacred space. And the gift of I begain, I believe, 247 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: but the gift of all psychedelics is that bit is 248 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: incredibly inefficient that we have to spend that much time 249 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: with somebody, but that's where all the magic happens. That's 250 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: where what we might call healing happens because we get 251 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: to honor somebody. So it's it's that place where I 252 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: call it's the exactitude of the inefficiency of poetry that 253 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: happens in those spaces. And that could take days and days, 254 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: and that's just a matter of sitting with people and 255 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: being with them and honoring them. How do you keep 256 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: people safe in the midst of experiences like that. I 257 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: got to say that my early year and a half 258 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: year that I was doing it, it wasn't safe because 259 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: I wasn't doing it with a medical professional in a 260 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: supportive role. So you know, monitoring the heart. You cannot 261 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: go to leap on this. You need to be with 262 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: someone seven. So those early years where maybe a year 263 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: and a half ro I was doing it on my 264 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: owner with other addicts or drug users was dangerous. And 265 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: after an incident in Canada where where someone almost died, 266 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: I was thinking about stopping, but I didn't and I 267 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: never did it without medical professionals. Again, what we did 268 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: was we blended the ceremony in with the medicine, so 269 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: the doctors were dancing with us. We'll be talking more 270 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: after we hear this ad. So the question I want 271 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: to ask you, because you're experience and a lot of 272 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: other of the psychelics as well, what is it that 273 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: distinguishes I Begained from the others. I mean, people talk 274 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: about l S D and and psilocyte peyote is giving 275 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: this kind of deep spiritual insight that can help trans 276 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: form your life. But is there something else going on 277 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: with I Begain, you know, biochemically in the body that's 278 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: causing people to lose their dependence on these substances. I 279 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: can't tell you what's happening other than experiencing it myself 280 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: and seeing it and hundreds of people. I think I 281 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: did over five detoxes. And when you're saying detox, by 282 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: the way, you're talking about sitting with somebody for Oftentimes 283 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: each detox might be two or three days, and sitting 284 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: with somebody right at least three days, three to four days. Yeah, 285 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: I spent I spent years in hotel rooms, cleaning up, 286 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: cleaning up vomit with folks and going through similar processes 287 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: that I went through. Here's the thing. I can't tell 288 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: you what it's doing. I can tell you what I've seen. 289 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: I can tell you why it's different. Sure, you can 290 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: take LSD or mushrooms and have what we call the 291 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: spiritual mystical experience that might give you some insight into 292 00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: your problematic behaviors. I begain into ups the physical dependency 293 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: on opiates and opioids with significantly reduced withdrawal or without 294 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: withdrawal at all. And you know there's plenty of scientists 295 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: that will dispute that. But if you were to give 296 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: a hardcore junkie like me ahead of acid basically twelve 297 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: hours later, I'd want to kill you because I would 298 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: be tripping, begging for some dope. And that's not the 299 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: experience with most people going through Ivy Gaine. There there 300 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: is a cessation of the dependency. You don't need the 301 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: fucking hit in three or four days. Now do people 302 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: go back to it? Yes, the majority do. But what 303 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: I saw personally, what happened with me was so transformative. 304 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: I was using about a hundred fifty dollars with the 305 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 1: heroine a day and on a hundred milligrams of methodone, 306 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: and four days later I had a pocket full of money, 307 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,959 Speaker 1: and I was on the outskirts of Amsterdam and I 308 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: didn't have a desire to use. Now that's what happened 309 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: with me. Again, I think that might be about the 310 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: It doesn't happen with everybody, and I think that's where 311 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: the big problem was with I began advocates and with 312 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,239 Speaker 1: psychedelic advocates in general. Yeah, actually, let's just back up 313 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: here a moment, because your life is actually pretty interesting 314 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: before all this stuff that happens when I began, and 315 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: I was just reading up. But you're born in sixty 316 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: two in Detroit, like a kind of working class Greek, 317 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: second generation whatever family, right, you know, you're you're a 318 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: kind of not so white white guy in a mostly 319 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: black city. You get involved in a band. What leisure 320 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: class I think it's called that actually gets a fair 321 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: amount of renown and you're the frontman for it, you know, 322 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: making up poetry and singing on stages and and meanwhile 323 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: you're also doing hero on a lot of time. And 324 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: you're actually being a fairly successful guy for quite a 325 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: number of years, right before things start to fall apart. Yeah, 326 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: I don't know how successful we were. I think artistically 327 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: we're very successful. But yeah, I was a creative person. 328 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I came to New York as 329 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: a young person, and you know, the habit grew and 330 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: I grew. But you know, it's the thing about especially opioids, 331 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a beautiful grace period and sometimes it 332 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 1: could last for a very long time, but that grace 333 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: period can be very beneficial. For me. It was a 334 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: faustian deal. It took a lot more in the end 335 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: than it gave. But yeah, my life was pretty interesting. 336 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: The thing is that I was playing nightclubs when I 337 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: was fourteen and fifteen and the early punk days in Detroit, 338 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: and then came to the New York when I was 339 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: like nineteen. I lived in the Chelsea Hotel and this 340 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: whole sort of world of the Hotel Chelsea that have 341 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: been going on for a hundred years. I became involved 342 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: in that, and then politics and art and music on 343 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: the Lower East Side, and you know, for a while 344 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: it was great. And I don't want to talk bad 345 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: about heroin. It's like distasteful. It's like talking bad about 346 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: your ex wife. But I can't be that idealistic about 347 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: it either. You know, if you're nodding out, you know, 348 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: at like an important let's say, meeting with the record 349 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: company guy, it's not a good look, right, I mean, 350 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: it's a good look until it's not um. And so yes, 351 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: most of the harm um from heroin is because of 352 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 1: its illegality, but as we know from you know, oxycotton 353 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: and other drugs, there's other stuff going on there too 354 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with the illegality. Then the 355 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: thing is it's diminishing. There seems to be some sweet 356 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: spot that you hit and then you can't get to 357 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: where you were, and and then it becomes this drag 358 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: about this maintenance thing. And so when you were doing 359 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: the methan on, where you getting that from a clinic 360 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 1: or getting it on the streets? I was I was 361 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: getting it from the clinic that you were still doing 362 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: the heroin on top of the messing on. Yeah, it's 363 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: totally possible. I mean, look, it gave me my wake up, 364 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, which was awesome. Here's the thing about the 365 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 1: maintenance personally, and and from my observation, I was still 366 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: seeking an outside euphoria so I could do enough air 367 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: wine I get at night really high. But then I 368 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: was mixing in benzos and I was seeking that sort 369 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: of extreme euphoria in our world to say anything bad 370 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: about these things, and is you know, sacrilegious. Oh no, 371 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 1: I mean if people got all sorts of use it 372 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: on method on from the good the bad like it 373 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: for a while this and that. I mean, the science 374 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: is there that huge numbers of people have benefited by 375 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: making the switch, but we also that for a lot 376 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: of people haven't only worked that well. The matter clinic 377 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: was right up the street from the from the police 378 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,719 Speaker 1: academy that we were clearly junk, and it got to 379 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: the point where I had psychosis. I would think I 380 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: was being followed. I would stand by a window and 381 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: look out for hours I was. I mean, I did 382 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: crazy shit. I mean it's weird though if you think about, right, 383 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: because I mean, what we know right, no matter what 384 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: the intervention, right, whether it's going cold Turkey or doing 385 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: method on or buprenorphreen or iby gain or psychedelics, or 386 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: falling in love or finding a job or you know, 387 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: drinking green tea. I mean, people have every different method 388 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: for trying to finally put some kind of problematic relationship 389 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: with drugs behind them. But it's also true that, you know, 390 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: there's a kind of double edged saying about almost the 391 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: placebo effect of these things that if you believe in 392 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: the treatment, it's more likely to work. I was at 393 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: a Psycholis conference a few weeks ago and I saw 394 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: Matt Johnson. You know, it's been a long time psychological 395 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: researcher at Johns Hopkins and he just got the first 396 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: chair and Psychedelic Studies and we're chatting and I was 397 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: telling him I was thinking about doing a show on 398 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 1: the placebo effect. And he said, Ethan, sometimes I think 399 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: about psychedelics as placebo's on steroids. Yeah, and I've seen 400 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: that work in the I begat space in particular because 401 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: it has this thing, this miraculous alchemy that happens with 402 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: some people, but also other things are happening that aren't emphasized. 403 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: People might contact a family member that they haven't talked 404 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: to in years and years. You know, they might go 405 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: back to school, they might change the way they use drugs. 406 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: They might just have a couple of days where they're 407 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: just honored. I'm a big proponent of placebo. I think 408 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: placebo is where it's at. I mean, you know, you 409 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: hear people talking about it, Well, that's just the placebo effect. 410 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: And you know, to me, that's like the most interesting 411 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: ship is the way what is that? That's the instant 412 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: in ship, right, And that goes to like this idea 413 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: of creating space, a space in which you can explore 414 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: problematic relationships. You can explore depression or or or or 415 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: deep rumination, you can explore relationships. And creating space and 416 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: accelerating that placebo effect is to me, what's the most 417 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: interesting thing about all of this. And that's what I've 418 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: been doing all my life is creating space, particularly around 419 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: people who use drugs. Have been a bartender, I've ran 420 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: after hours clubs, I work in needle Exchange, and I 421 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 1: hold space in the psychedelic set. So to me, the 422 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: placebo stuff, that's a great idea. That's the most interesting 423 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: thing to me. You know, it is also something about 424 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: your journey to that your life is, in many respects 425 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: committed to harm reduction. You've been deeply invested in the 426 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: harm reduction space. At the same time, you've talked a 427 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: lot about the powerful, important role that twelve steps and 428 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: the twelve steps consciousness and meetings have played for you, 429 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: and people off times think that those two things are 430 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: at odds, and there's certain elements of the philosophies that 431 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: are odds, but by and large, there's a kind of 432 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: common philosophy right around around recognizing and cultivating and embracing 433 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: the inherent dignity in every human being. For you, coming 434 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: out of that I began thing in two thousand two three, 435 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: beginning to become somebody's given sessions, were both these things 436 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: well integrated for you? The whole twelve step thing and 437 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: the harm merction thing was at a matter of time. 438 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: To me, it was. But let me just tell you. 439 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: Let's say I'm injecting cocaine and heroin. I'm on the 440 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: Lower East Side of New York. My life is spinning 441 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: out of control. I'm still in the band, but I'm 442 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: psychotic a lot of the time. And I'm at a 443 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: point in my life where I'm not very much communication 444 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: with my family. I just lost another girlfriend, another job, 445 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: I'm hustling, and I go to the corner of Avenue 446 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: A and First Street, which was a very different corner then, 447 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: and that's where I would buy my syringes. That you're 448 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: go there and there'll be you know, many women out 449 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 1: there selling syringes. And this is at a time when 450 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: we were losing a lot of our family members to 451 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: AIDS actually, and so I remember going on there to 452 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: buy one for a dollar or two dollars, and I 453 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: see this little table set out there, and there's these 454 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 1: mostly men, mostly queer men, and I get choked up 455 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: when I talked about it. They were there giving out syringes, 456 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: which was illegal to do at that time. They were 457 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: passing out syringes and information about injection. And I walked 458 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: into the table and one of them gave it to me. 459 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: I can remember his face as an older guy, and 460 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: I said how much and he said free, and then 461 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 1: he said, we want you to be safe. Ethan that 462 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: epoch at that time, that to me, it such a 463 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: mind blow for me that someone would risk their freedom 464 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: because they cared about me. The thing about I began 465 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: to me, and the thing about that gesture, and the 466 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: thing about twelve steps. I go back to the Christ's 467 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: story and the story of the leopard. The leopard was 468 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 1: a social outcast, was contagious, was in danger and a shame. 469 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: Christ stops and heals the leopard. Now is that a 470 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 1: public health story about leprosy? To me, what it is 471 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: is that Divinity loved the outcast. Divinity loved the untouchable. 472 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 1: And so whether it's taking time to sit with somebody 473 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: while they go through a detox or handing that that needle, 474 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: that's about love. That's about communal love in action. And 475 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: to me, there's nothing more power. For that's where the 476 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: placebo lies, right and I was seen and what happened 477 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: in the either game space after a while, and then 478 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: the other medicines at work with psilocybin and m d 479 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,360 Speaker 1: n A. What we try to do is honor someone 480 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: just like we honor them at a twelve step meeting, 481 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: or honor them when they come into a harm reduction facility. 482 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: Hopefully this is what we do. It's I think, in 483 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: some ways to me, it's the most important thing. Of course, 484 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: we don't want people to become sick or overdose, of 485 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: course we don't. But that act is so revolutionary, you know, 486 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: I'll tell you to me sometimes when I hear you 487 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: talking about this stuff, you remind me of when I 488 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: think about some of the most talented body workers I know, 489 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, the ones who are studying a half dozen 490 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: a dozen different modalities and then integrating all together. And 491 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: the way you talk about helping people heal seems the 492 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: same sort of thing. You know, you're bringing from twelve steps, 493 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: you're bringing from harm reduction, you're bringing from wheat T, 494 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: you're bringing from iby game, you're bringing from the psychalities, 495 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: you're bringing from a sense of community. It's all about 496 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: helping people and understand that people. Each person's got their 497 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: own journey and that what worked for you may not 498 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: work for others. I mean, is that a fair description 499 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: of of how you do what you do now? And 500 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: think about it. First of all, when people come to me, 501 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: and I've been working primarily with M D M A 502 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: and psilocybin and sound by the way which we can 503 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: get to when they come to me like, yeah, I've 504 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 1: been doing this, I've been doing this almost twenty years, right, 505 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: and so I know a few things, but what I'm 506 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: listening for is that wisdom that brought them to me 507 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: in the first place, and that's what I'm following. And 508 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: the idea is as someone who's played in nightclubs in 509 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,719 Speaker 1: bands for years, someone who's worked in the harm reduction space, 510 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: and that somebody who is a trained ritualist. What I'm 511 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: looking for is how we can co create a container 512 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: what I call radical hospitality, just that we're there for 513 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: you and we're going to hold you in all you 514 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: unless you start to get into a discursive place or 515 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: a self harming place. We're gonna hold you and honor 516 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: your sacred individuality because it's a big fucking deal. It's 517 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: a big deal when you come to take a journey, 518 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: and that's how we look for it. We're marking the day. 519 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: It's going to be different for Ethan today because we're 520 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: marking it and we're there to show up holy and 521 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: with all the skill. The thing that's guiding us is 522 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: the ethos, which is self love and acceptance. It's really 523 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: about improvisation. You can have a formula, but if somebody, 524 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,719 Speaker 1: you know, we had somebody the other day, brilliant guy. 525 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: He talked for eight hours straight. Now I could tell 526 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: him to let go to you know, go to your breath. 527 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: But after a while, that's what needs to happen. So, 528 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: you know, one and I just followed him. We followed 529 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: him with the music, we followed him with our heart. 530 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: We listened because that's what needed to happen. So it's 531 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: got to be an improvisational while ty to it. And 532 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: that's where all the training and the thousands and thousands 533 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: of hours with people come into play, because then you 534 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: can shift and you're not so attached to dogma or 535 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: a template. Let's take a break here and go to 536 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:28,479 Speaker 1: an ad. You know, there's one other moment in your life, 537 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,239 Speaker 1: right ten years ago where you get set up and 538 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: the d e a bus you and you know, you 539 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: go through a couple of years, a hell, did it 540 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: change in ways what you do, how you think about 541 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: what you do? Did it change it? Yeah? You don't 542 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: don't want to get busted again? Yeah, I'm do what 543 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: it is Jamaica, man, it's Costa Rica. There's that, you know. 544 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I found this quote from you where you say, 545 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: you know they the cop they took away my magic powder. 546 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: So I thought they were my enemy, but now I 547 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: realized we were dancing together. Even the arrest was part 548 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: of my initiation. It was a blessing, pretty generous statement. 549 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: But I guess you still believe that I I do. 550 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: You know, that affected me in a lot of ways. 551 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: First of all, like when you read it on like 552 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: you know, a blurb, like you know, you read it 553 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: on Wikipedia or something makes it seem like not a 554 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,479 Speaker 1: big deal, you know, for those that have been through it. 555 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: And I've been arrested several times before, but I was 556 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: never facing anything real, you know. I mean I might 557 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: have spent a week bouncing around or ten days bouncing 558 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: around New York City system, which is not pleasant, but 559 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: I never had that sort of existential threat, just sort 560 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: of damocles just hanging over me for two years. What 561 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: it did for me, it is because I became so 562 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: identified with Iby Game. I became the Iby Game poster boy. 563 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: And you know, the Buddha says that all identity is pain, 564 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: and it became painful for me, and my life was 565 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: totally consumed. It was one you know what usually happens. 566 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: One cop gets a bug up their ass and I'll 567 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: just say this that that. What I learned is that 568 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: they took my magic powder away, right, And I was 569 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: just there without a boga and who was I? What 570 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: was my purpose? And I had this opportunity that Carlino 571 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: Lopez who was running New York harm Reduction Educators at 572 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: the time, and Brian Murphy was a therapist there and 573 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: still like you amazing therapist, amazing psychedelic and harm reduction therapist. 574 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: They invited me to come in and just sort of 575 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: hang out, you know, So I would do that and 576 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: then they offered me this job and I sort of 577 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: joined the team. Initially, I didn't even know what my 578 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: fucking job was. It was like, I don't know, shaman 579 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: at large or something. I've never identified as a fucking shaman. 580 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: But it was kind of like just go and do 581 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: like weird ship with people, right, And what ended up 582 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: happening is Brian had this little meditation group where he 583 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: would shake a rattle and people would go and meditate, 584 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: and some of them were pharmacological challenge so the meditation 585 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: would be deep, basically on a no and I'm like, well, 586 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: let me bring another rattle, and we brought another rattle, 587 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: and I brought another rattle like, well, this guy plays drums, 588 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: and what happened. It became a weekly ritual for ten 589 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: years at Marie where every Thursday at we would gather 590 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: with drums and incense and sage and rattles and an 591 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: altar that was constantly changing and being built by the 592 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: participants who came in there, and we would spend time 593 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: drumming and singing and then talking. But what I learned 594 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: from the Buety and what I learned from twelve Steps, 595 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: is that everybody was participating. Everybody was contributing, either by singing, 596 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: telling the story, talking about themselves, dancing, and some of 597 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: these things turned into these incredible spiritual parties. And from 598 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: that we began to form and co create with the community, 599 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: this holistic space that we didn't have any money for. 600 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: We didn't have a mandate. Management never told us go 601 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: ahead and create a holistic space. But eventually, just through 602 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: I would say spirit, we started doing full body acupuncture 603 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: massage that weekly ritual. Brian and I would do these 604 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: shamanistic interventions one on ones, which were just amazing sometimes, 605 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: and we started bringing gongs and singing bowls and chai chi, 606 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: and we've co created with the community this incredible healing 607 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: space in the middle of all the other great things 608 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: that NAIRI does, which is you know, case management and 609 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: needle exchange and a safe pace for drug users and 610 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: sex workers where we just see people as human beings 611 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 1: that coming in with spirit. And all of that came 612 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: because the d A arrested me and stopped me from 613 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: doing that. That community during my trial. To me, it 614 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: was the thing that sustained me. And without that community, 615 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: and I don't mean just my co workers, I mean 616 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: the people, the drug users and the people who are 617 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: living in the homeless shelf of the people that you 618 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: know I became very close with. Without them, I don't 619 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: know where I would have been. Yeah, you know you 620 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: mentioned in music, explain more about this healing role of sound. 621 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: You know, lou Reid said my life was saved by 622 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: rock and roll, right, And that's true for me. Music 623 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: has always been healing from me, has always been a 624 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: refuge for me. But vibration and the immersion in vibration 625 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: in sound can deepen any experience. Particularly what I discovered 626 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: and others have discovered, is the psychedelic experience. So when 627 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: you come in to a session or ceremony with me 628 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: and the stuff we're doing. In Jamaica it's mushrooms, but 629 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,760 Speaker 1: in some other locations I've done the combination of mushrooms 630 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: and m d M A. Coming into that space, the 631 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: idea is that you would get comfortable, put on the 632 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: eyemask and allow these vibrations to center you. And much 633 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: like meditation, if you get in a discursive space, if 634 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: you get into space of a mind wandering, you bring 635 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: yourself back to the sound and allowing that sound to 636 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: deepen the journey. The only thing I'm interested in, Ethan, 637 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: really interested is space. Another childhood hero of mine said 638 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: space is the place that Sunraw. As a disciple of 639 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: sun Raw, I embrace that. And the idea is whether 640 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: it is the space in an after hours club or 641 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: a ceremony at a harm reduction center in East Harlem, 642 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: or a twelve step space, the idea is you're creating 643 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: room around yourself, room to be with others, and then 644 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: space around the quote unquote problem or the issue. What 645 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: psychedelics delivered most consistently is that space in order to 646 00:36:54,560 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: give one perspective and maybe increased curiosity, and so owned 647 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: is an important part of that. So this thing I'm 648 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,760 Speaker 1: reading about that you're started up now with some colleagues 649 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: the Cardia Institute, which looks like your big new venture 650 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: coming up. Is that basically what it's all about? The 651 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 1: stuff you're talking about now, combining these uh you know, 652 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: programs outside the US using psilocybin or m D m 653 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: A or maybe even iby gain more together with sound 654 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: with creating space, is that the essence of it? First 655 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,800 Speaker 1: of all, we're not using iby gain uh not yet anyways. Um. 656 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: I've tuned up with Ross ellen Horn's therapist and and 657 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: sociologists because we share a similar idea around improvisation. As 658 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 1: a therapist, he recognizes the most important thing is to 659 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: be a tuned to be improvisational, so we share that. 660 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: We share that idea. We know people are hurting, but 661 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: sometimes the labels and the diagnosis is are harmful, and 662 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: so the idea is how much curiosity can we create, 663 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: how much improvisation can happen between the spaceholder and the participant. 664 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: So we've teamed up with Ross and then for me, 665 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: for a guy who has been like in the underground, 666 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: who barely graduated from high school to be involved in 667 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: this project, it's kind of like a fucking miracle, and 668 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: the idea is that we're gonna have a space in 669 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: Jamaica where we'll be doing retreats and also offering ketamine 670 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 1: using the same ethos, with live music for each person, 671 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: and not only offering it to people paying you know 672 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: the price were you know that's there's no sliding scale, 673 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: there's free, and there's whatever the prices, and we're gonna 674 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 1: be teaming up with New York harm reduction educators um 675 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: UH in the Holistic Department to offer these services to 676 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: that population. I mean, I'm so encouraged by this explosion 677 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: of interest and excitement about psychelics and therapy, and I realized, 678 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: you know, you've written some powerful stuff saying let's not 679 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: take this too fall, let's not get carried away by 680 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: our own rhetoric, let's understand the risks here. But I 681 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: also see ways in which the popularization of this is 682 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,720 Speaker 1: kind of educating tens of millions of people and opening 683 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: up a greater understanding. And some of that I think 684 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: may well read down to the benefit of people who 685 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 1: keep doing it traditionally outside the medicalized system, with practitioners 686 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: and therapists who are not licensed but who are highly 687 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: talented and very focused on helping people. Maybe I'm just 688 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: being optimistic. I think it's I think it's possible, But 689 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: we have to recognize that the tendency for capitalists is 690 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: to consume and to grow, and so we have to 691 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: recognize that what's really encouraging about or gone to me, 692 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 1: is that once we decriminalize it will take away those penalties. 693 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,359 Speaker 1: Some of the efforts of the sixties to sort of 694 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: radicalize the use of psychedelics in a group space. I 695 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,919 Speaker 1: think we could do that really deliberately, and to use 696 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: psychedelics as an organizing tool of consciousness, raising, you know, 697 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: consciousness about how we treat each other, class consciousness. I 698 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: think that's really exciting. I couldn't agree more. I mean, look, 699 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: you know, people say that doses, the poison right and 700 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: the drugs set and setting are pivotal how we experience drugs, 701 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,839 Speaker 1: and I think maybe many of us are overly optimistic 702 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 1: that psychedelics can have this sort of revolutionary effect in 703 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: terms of opening up people to what we need to 704 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: do to save the planet and to turn politics in 705 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: the right direction. Yet, as I think you've written about, 706 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: there are all sorts of ways in which pernicious groups 707 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: and the state have used drugs, including psychedelic ones, for 708 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: you know, evil purposes as well. So I've loved this conversation. 709 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: It's a little like sitting in my living room and 710 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,720 Speaker 1: having the same conversation, which hopefully we'll be doing before long, 711 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, and maybe with some of the people you 712 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 1: mentioned on on our conversation here. So I just want 713 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: to I want to thank you very very much. I 714 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: want to wish you all the best on on the 715 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: next journeys of your life as you get going with 716 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: this institute. I think, I think your commitment and your passion, 717 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: and your your lovable way of communicating this stuff, and 718 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: your courageousness and sense of adventure you know, have been 719 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: ever really played it in spiring role in both the 720 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: broader harm reduction and drug policty reform worlds and beyond. 721 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: So for all of that, thank you, Thanks you. I 722 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: love you do and I and and thank you for 723 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: all your working and for standing by me when I 724 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,360 Speaker 1: when I really needed it. So thank you. Psychoactive is 725 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,839 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's 726 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Katcha Kumkova 727 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 1: and Ben Cabrick. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, 728 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams 729 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick for I Heart Radio, and me Ethan Naedelman. 730 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Belusian and a special thanks 731 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: to a Vivit Brio, Seph Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Beatty. 732 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,240 Speaker 1: If you'd like to share your own stories, comments, or ideas, 733 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: please leave us a message at eight three three seven 734 00:41:54,120 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: seven nine sixty. That's one eight three three Psycho zero. 735 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,799 Speaker 1: You can also email us as Psychoactive at protozoa dot 736 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: com or find me on Twitter at Ethan Natalman. And 737 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 1: if you couldn't keep track of all this, find the 738 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:17,399 Speaker 1: information in the show notes. Next week, we'll be talking 739 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 1: about vaping and the cigarettes with Matt Culley, an activist 740 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: and entrepreneur in the world of vaping. It's good to 741 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 1: remember that this is not just a nicotine product. The owners, 742 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 1: the business owners themselves view this as a life saving products. 743 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,359 Speaker 1: They feel like it's saved their lives and they feel 744 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: like it's saving their customers lives. Subscribe to Psychoactive now 745 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: see it, don't miss it.