1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 2: Let me tell you we have a new star. A 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 2: star is born. 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,239 Speaker 3: Elon humped up on Mars Jus and Kennemy. He is 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 3: the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. Probably 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 3: his whole life is from a position of insecurity. I 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 3: feel for the guy. 8 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 4: I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does. 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 1: But those two percent that are nasty, they are out 10 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: in four post. We were meant for great things in 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: the United States of America, and Elon reminds us of that. 12 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 2: I'm very disappointed in Elan. 13 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 3: I've helped Elon a lot. 14 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 4: At Welcome to Elan and Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 15 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 4: It's Tuesday, September ninth. I'm your host, David Popatoppolos. Okay, 16 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 4: So Elon, it appears, just may have himself a new 17 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 4: Tesla package. I'm I mean a very very big pay package. 18 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 4: If all goes well, and you know, every home in 19 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 4: America has an optimist robot wiping baby bottoms and a 20 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 4: driverless car to parked in the driveway, and Tesla's stock 21 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 4: is worth many times more than it is today, well, 22 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 4: then the package could be worth one trillion dollars. Max, 23 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 4: that's that's trillion with the T. Yeah, I'm getting this right. 24 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 5: I mean, if it's wiping the baby bottoms though, that's 25 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 5: a trillion dollar opportunity right there. 26 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 4: Okay, you know that guy, that's co host Max Chafkin. Now, 27 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 4: all the package needs is shareholder approval. The vote comes 28 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 4: at the company's annual shareholder meeting on November sixth. We'll 29 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 4: look ahead to that vote and break down the inns 30 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 4: and the outs and the whys of the package the 31 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 4: Tesla board is proposing. And also at that meeting, less 32 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 4: dramatic perhaps, but also very important, shareholders will vote to 33 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 4: determine if Tesla should start investing in Elon's AI company XAI. 34 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 4: Will be joined a little later by Bloomberg Tech reporter 35 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 4: Kurt Wagner at the sci Us that potential Tesla XA ideal. 36 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 4: But first for Elon's payday. Sitting here with me is 37 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 4: that guy, Max. Hey, Max, Hey, David, and over in 38 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 4: Oakland Bloomberg's top muscologist, Dana Hall. Dana Hello, Hey, Hey, okay, 39 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 4: so but wait a minute, by the way, Max, congratulations, 40 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 4: you have big book news today. 41 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 5: Yep, that's right, David and listeners. The paperback of my 42 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 5: book The Contrarian, which is a biography of Peter Teal, 43 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 5: is out today as we're recording this Tuesday, September ninth. 44 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 5: I actually originally wrote it in twenty twenty one, but 45 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 5: I updated it for the paperback. I wrote a new 46 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 5: essay trying to kind of make sense of Elon and 47 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 5: how he related to some of the stuff I wrote 48 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 5: about back then. And yeah, I wrote a whole whole 49 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 5: new essay about it. Basically, the argument in it, I'll 50 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 5: keep the Church Sweet, is that Peter Teal's kind of 51 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 5: activism and advocacy and waste and his money became kind 52 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 5: of a model for Elon during the last election cycle. 53 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 5: So hopefully it's something for people listen to this podcast. 54 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 2: I've read it. 55 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 5: I'd really appreciate it if you checked it out and 56 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 5: review it. 57 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: And so, oh, I already read it. 58 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 4: Do I need to reread it? 59 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? You do from cover to cover? 60 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 4: Jeez, Okay, then I shall excellent. Congratulations again, Max, very cool. 61 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 4: All right, So Dan, before we talk about this new 62 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 4: or potentially new Musk pay package, let's just step back 63 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 4: a little for a minute and talk about the old 64 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 4: Musk pay package, the one that ran into trouble in 65 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 4: Delaware court. 66 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: What exactly is the status of that? Is it totally dead? 67 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: Mostly dead? 68 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 5: What? 69 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 3: No, not at all? So the Delaware Chance recurt struck 70 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 3: down the pay package. Tesla appealed the pay package to 71 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 3: the Delaware Supreme Court. Oral arguments for that are in October. 72 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 3: In the interim, Tesla has already awarded Musk like a 73 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 3: third of that twenty eighteen pay package, as like a hedge, 74 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 3: depending on which way where it goes. But then you know, 75 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 3: in Elon's mind, he still hasn't been paid, and he 76 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 3: would like very much like to get paid, particularly if 77 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 3: they want him to stick around. So this is a 78 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 3: new it's like the go forward pay package. Like, forget 79 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 3: about Delaware, forget about twenty eighteen. That's all up in 80 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 3: the courts. How do we incentivize Elon to stick around 81 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 3: for this new wave of growth which he sees as 82 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 3: all being about optimism and robotics at AI. 83 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 5: But to Dana's point, Tesla very much still plans to 84 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,679 Speaker 5: give him that money, that old pay package. 85 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: What was that old one worth? 86 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: I mean, it was like fifty billion dollars at the time. 87 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 4: Jump change. 88 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 3: Max. 89 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, but it's fluctuated a bit because it's the 90 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 5: it reflects the stock press under So so fifty ish billion, 91 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 5: give or take, still significantly smaller, I think if my 92 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 5: math is right, then one trillion. 93 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 2: Yes, So, Dana, here's the thing. 94 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 4: When he had that package, and as you always reminded us, 95 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 4: and as Max is doing again, so now there was 96 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 4: no like truly set number on it because the value 97 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 4: of the package, that old package fluctuated with the value 98 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 4: of the stock and some other things. But that package 99 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 4: was deemed, if I'm remembering correctly, totally unprecedented and slightly 100 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 4: inconceivable to us mere masses. So how do we go 101 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 4: from a number that already seemed large to a number 102 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 4: that seems inconceivable. Why did the board feel obligated to say, hey, Elon, 103 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 4: here's up to potentially one trillion. 104 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 3: Dollars because Elon threatened to quit. So here's the thing 105 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 3: that you need to understand about Elon and Max and 106 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 3: I have talked about this a lot. Like money alone 107 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 3: does not motivate Elon. 108 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 5: He is already the. 109 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 3: Richest person in the world. What motivates him is really 110 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,919 Speaker 3: huge Swinging from the fence's goals that everyone thinks is 111 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 3: crazy and control, and what he wants is a bigger 112 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 3: stake in Tesla. He wants twenty five percent. So the 113 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 3: new pay package is a series of twelve trenches, and 114 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: it's like a video game, like as you hit these milestone, 115 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 3: you unlock a trnch, and the tronch is both market 116 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 3: cap which goes up with these you know, the first 117 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 3: tronch you have to hit two trillion dollars, the second 118 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 3: tronch is two point five trillion, all the way up 119 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 3: to the over eight trillion dollar mark. But you also 120 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: have to hit operational milestones that have to do with 121 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 3: revenue and like products like robotaxis, FSD, take rate, all 122 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 3: this other kind of stuff. And with each tranch that 123 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 3: Elon unlocks, presumably I mean shareholders win too, right, Like 124 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 3: if the company goes for me worth a trillion dollars 125 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 3: to over eight trillion, everybody wins. That is the premise 126 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 3: of the pay package. And with each trnch, Elon gets 127 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: more stock, which gives him more control. So conceivably, by 128 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 3: the end of this he'll be a trillionaire and I'll 129 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 3: have a twenty five percent stake in the company. 130 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 5: I would amend what Dana said just slightly, which is 131 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 5: to say, I agree with her that Elon does not 132 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 5: care about money really, but he does care about really, 133 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 5: really large amounts. And I think Dana's right, like a 134 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 5: big part of this, like the money is part of it. 135 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 5: And of course he has big plans, right he wants 136 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 5: to colonize Mars. He can definitely find a use White 137 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 5: Baby trillion dollars. But also like, this is a way 138 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 5: I think to take the focus away from Tesla's current issues. 139 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 5: And I went back to look at the context of 140 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 5: that twenty eighteen award, because you're right, David, like at 141 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 5: the time there were headlines like this is the biggest 142 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 5: this is like more money than anyone could could conceivably 143 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 5: be and the headlines were very similar. But on the 144 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 5: other hand, like, if he were to do this, it 145 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 5: would be like an amazing, unprecedented amount of growth. Now, 146 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 5: what was happening in early twenty eighteen when that award 147 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 5: was made, Well, Tesla was basically in crisis. They were 148 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 5: frantically struggling to produce Model three Sedans. They were in 149 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 5: what Elon you know, would took to calling quote unquote 150 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 5: production hell, this all kind of seems quaint, but at 151 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 5: the time it didn't seem totally clear that he was 152 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 5: going to figure out a way to like actually mass 153 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 5: produce this car and do so profitably. And as Dana remembers, well, 154 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 5: they were short sellers who were convinced the company was 155 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 5: going out of business, and this was kind of a 156 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 5: way back then to say, Okay, let's ignore the problems 157 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 5: for a second and think about what the future could 158 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 5: look like. And I think that's what's happening again. This 159 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 5: is a way, in addition to incentivize must to keep 160 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 5: them from quitting, to from the point of view of 161 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 5: a lot of Tesla investors, to pay them what is worth. 162 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 5: It's a way to change the channel and to create 163 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 5: some sort of defined goals. Elon loves talking about these 164 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 5: kind of abstract, far off goals, stuff like optimize wiping 165 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 5: baby butts without a clear timeline for doing so. But 166 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 5: now look, we have a timeline. Sort of yeah. 167 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 4: I mean, there is seemingly a somewhat fantastical quality to 168 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 4: it all, and the changing the narrative thought is an 169 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 4: interesting one, although I guess it's not super intuitive to me, 170 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 4: And yet I look at the stock price, and the 171 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 4: stock price Loan and Behold is grinding ever higher? Is 172 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 4: that I don't I know, you don't follow every twist 173 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 4: and turn of the stock price. But is some of 174 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 4: that rebound in the stock predicated on the fact that 175 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 4: it looks like the board has Elon signed on for 176 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 4: the long haul? 177 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 3: I think so, I mean, that's always you know, they're 178 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 3: sort of in this like mutually assured chokehold right where 179 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 3: like the board needs Elon, Elon threatens to quit, the 180 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 3: board tries to appease him. He is the sort of 181 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 3: singular person who's got the vision of the company. He's 182 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 3: been the CEO since two thousand and eight. But another 183 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 3: way to think about the pay packages is if the 184 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 3: twenty eighteen package was described as like a moonshot that 185 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 3: everyone thought was crazy, like he did actually achieve all 186 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 3: the milestones and then some So now they're sort of 187 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 3: re upping the same conceit, although now it's like a 188 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 3: Mars shot and we're talking trillions not billions. And Musk 189 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 3: has always said that he thinks that there's a path 190 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 3: for Tesla to be the most valuable company in the world, 191 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 3: and if that's what it takes to motivate him. I 192 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 3: think the board has made the deduction like, well, why not, 193 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 3: let's do whatever we can to motivate it and Wall 194 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 3: win in the process. And I think that this will 195 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 3: easily pass at the shareholder meeting on November sixth, And 196 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 3: clearly there's gonna be like a whole campaign to get 197 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 3: people engaged with shareholders, particularly the retail fan base. And yeah, 198 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 3: it's like unprecedented incorporated America. But but Elon is an 199 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 3: unprecedented figure. 200 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 4: That's I was going to ask you that, so you 201 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 4: see it totally sailing through, Max, you as well. This 202 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 4: is like a ninety nine to one vote. 203 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, this is like Vladimir Putin's Latimer reelection. Yes, it's 204 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 5: going to pass. This is a huge amount of money. 205 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 5: And if you're if you're mad about inequity in the world, 206 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 5: there are lots of reasons to sort of think this 207 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 5: is a bad idea. I mean, it is kind of 208 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 5: funny that like Elon Musk has spent the last I 209 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 5: don't know a year or so, like just unbelie alienating 210 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 5: his customers, like just totally taking essentially like a boring 211 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 5: company flamethrower to his existing business. And the board has 212 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 5: turning around thanking him and going to write him like 213 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 5: a gigantic check. But as Danna says, what they're doing 214 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 5: is saying, hey, if you can back up these these 215 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 5: very brand statements that you've been making, Yeah, sure, we'll 216 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 5: pay you. There's one thing I don't did Dana mention 217 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 5: that that there's a succession planning part of this as well? 218 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 5: I don't know that, like the latter tranches. 219 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 4: With one of his kids, require him to. 220 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 5: Come up with a succession plan and for the board 221 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 5: to approve it. I think that also does kind of 222 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 5: answer some of the concerns that you were seeing even 223 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 5: from Tesla bulls around the time when Elon was kind 224 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 5: of at his most erratic earlier. 225 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 2: This my money's on X. 226 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 4: If that's what they're he's grooming him at a young age, 227 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 4: just get him, get him right there within twenty five 228 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 4: years actually running the show. 229 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: All right? 230 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 4: So Dan, it sails through a November sixth in the 231 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 4: shareholder meeting. Is there potentially any other court obstacles to 232 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 4: overcome on this one too? Just like the prior one 233 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 4: or the fact that Tesla is now domicile in Texas 234 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 4: means that are no longer domicile than Delaware means nah, 235 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 4: it's the core problems are a thing of the past. 236 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that now that they are you know, 237 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 3: legally domiciled in Texas, it will be much harder to 238 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 3: bring a lawsuit, in part because there's also like the 239 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 3: shareholder that brought the lawsuit in Delaware was like it 240 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 3: was like a pocket plainiff, right, Like it's you know, 241 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 3: basically the way these things work is you have plainiffs 242 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 3: attorneys who like find a plaintiff to bring suit, and 243 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 3: the plaintiff might own like ten shares. It's gonna be 244 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 3: much harder to do that in Texas, and you have 245 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 3: to have a larger shareholder. So I just think that 246 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 3: they moved to Texas for a reason and they've got 247 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 3: a very favorable court system there. The proxy also has 248 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 3: some interesting language about how Muscus to quote unquote like 249 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 3: wind down his political work within a reasonable timeframe, but 250 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 3: it doesn't exactly specify what that means, Like does that 251 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 3: mean he can no longer like fund you know, candidates 252 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 3: and like elections. Does it mean that he has to 253 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 3: stop like, you know, ripping on politics on X Like 254 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 3: It's very ill defined. 255 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean he's been doing a lot of politicking 256 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 5: over the last last couple of days even so I know, 257 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 5: so I don't know. 258 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 4: But is that just can eat politic abroad or is 259 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 4: it just domestic politics or all politics? I mean, can you, 260 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 4: I don't know, go on and on about UK politics 261 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 4: as long as you don't mention US politics, Hey. 262 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 5: Dana, just question the political thing? Is that this proposal 263 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 5: for political neutrality or that's a different No, it's separate, Okay, Okay. 264 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 3: There's a sharel of our resolution about political neutrality that 265 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 3: the Tesla board is urging everyone to vote know on. 266 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 3: But within the proxy itself there's language about how they 267 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 3: would like Musk to wind down his political activities in 268 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 3: a reasonable fashion. 269 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 4: Dana, before we move on to Tesla and Xai, anything 270 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 4: else we need to know about this package. 271 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 3: I just would really encourage all listeners of the show 272 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 3: and investors to actually read the proxy. It's over three 273 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 3: hundred pages long. Three board members are up for reelection, 274 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 3: there are sixteen resolutions. It's a big package. If you're 275 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 3: an investor, you really need to read the proxy. 276 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 4: You know, Max is funny. The other day, I think 277 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 4: when we had talked about a similar musk package. But 278 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 4: if Elon's worth one trillion dollars, come on, you can't 279 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 4: tell me that I'm not worth a billion. That I 280 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 4: don't I'm not one one thousandth right as good as Elon. 281 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: Give me a give me a give me a billion. 282 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: Misplayed this negotiation. 283 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 5: You gotta spend uh, you gotta start a political party, 284 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 5: spend months fighting with the president. There's just a lot 285 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 5: of lot of you haven't done that. Elon has done that. 286 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 4: That fine, pam, Okay. So we're now joined by Bloomberg 287 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 4: Ace Tech reporter Kurt Wagner. Kurt, Hello, and Kurt, by 288 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 4: the way, no hard feelings. I think the last time 289 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 4: I introduced you, it got you know, I kind of 290 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 4: got in your face. 291 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: You're good with that. We're good, We're cool. 292 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, who's talking to me about your name against sir? 293 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 2: Of course we're good. 294 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: We're always good on this pod. Yeah, that's all good. 295 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 4: Welcome back, Hurt. So listen, we just talked about the 296 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 4: pay package, which will be voted on at the shareholder 297 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 4: meeting and no members six and then shareholders are also 298 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 4: going to vote on whether Tesla should go ahead and 299 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 4: invest in Xai tell Us a little bit about what 300 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 4: this investment would look like. 301 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: So Xai is Elon Musk's ai startup. It's been around 302 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: for a little over two years now, and it's been 303 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: raising money like crazy because the company is out buying 304 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: all these expensive GPUs and data centers and trying to 305 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: keep pace with the open aies of the world, the 306 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: Googles of the world on the ai race, and so 307 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: Elon has been fundraising heavily. He has talked publicly on 308 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: several occasions on his x account about the idea of 309 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: Tesla becoming an investor in Xai. But you know, instead 310 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: of just simply making that decision himself, he says, we 311 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: are going to put this to a shareholder vote, and 312 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: so that is what will happen in November, is that 313 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: the shareholders will decide should they essentially encourage the board 314 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: to invest in Xai. Now, there's a few things I 315 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: would point out, at least my interpretation of the proxy. 316 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: The first is that they're not stipulating a dollar amount. 317 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: They would leave that up to the board. Whatever the 318 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: board deems appropriate would be sort of the decision here. 319 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: But second, I my understanding, if you go to page 320 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: one seventy six of the proxy. I'm sure everybody has 321 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: been scouring this thing. It seems that this is a recommendation. 322 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: It is not a binding vote. So even if shareholders 323 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: say yes, we should invest inn XA, or even know 324 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: we should not, those are just recommendations from shareholders. My 325 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: understanding is that the board can make this decision one 326 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: way or the other on its own, regardless of the 327 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: outcome of. 328 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 4: The vote, So non binding. In other words, to eat right. Indeed, 329 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 4: even if shareholders this doesn't seem terribly likely, but shareholders 330 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 4: say no, we're not going for this, the board just says, hey, no, 331 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 4: we're going to do it anyways. 332 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: That's my understanding. You know, it says that it's a 333 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: non binding vote and that the board will continue to 334 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: invest in AI based on its fiduciary responsibility. So in theory, 335 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: even if shareholders say, please, don't do this, but the 336 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: board believes it's in the best interest of shareholders. Okay, 337 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: My again reading of it is that they can kind 338 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: of make the decision they want, right. 339 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 4: So Max, I ask you, sir, is this a bailout 340 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 4: for Xai and Albatross going forward for Tesla or a 341 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 4: great opportunity because what's hotter in the world, my friend 342 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 4: than Ai. 343 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 5: I mean it could be either, right, and I think 344 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 5: if you're looking at Tesla like a normal company, this 345 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 5: would be insane. I mean, you have a CEO who 346 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,959 Speaker 5: is ostensibly working on AI, the hottest industry there is, 347 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 5: who has a side project started this other ostensibly maybe 348 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 5: competing AI thing, kind of started. 349 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 2: Poaching competing with Tesla. He's poaching employees. Xai is poaching 350 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 2: from Tesla. 351 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 5: Well, their employees have gone from Tesla at XAI. I 352 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 5: don't think Elon Musk would would do something as as 353 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 5: ruthless as try to try to poach employees from one. 354 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 2: Company to the other. 355 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 5: But I'm just saying, like from a normal perspective, like 356 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 5: this is crazy. It raises so many different issues. From 357 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 5: an Elon in perspective, I hate to say it, but 358 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 5: it's totally normal. This is just like this is like 359 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 5: Elon being Elon. He in so many different ways, doesn't 360 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 5: operate as if these companies are separate. I'm sure that 361 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 5: we're good reasons in his mind to create Xai as 362 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 5: a separate and he allows it to raise money, you know, 363 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 5: on private markets take advantage of this boom and venture 364 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 5: capital like you can probably compensate these AI engineers in 365 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 5: ways that are are helpful if you're especially if you're 366 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 5: trying to recruit from some of the other privately held 367 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 5: AI companies. So so, I don't know, I mean, it 368 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 5: seems like this could turn into an albatross at the time. 369 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 5: I think in retrospect, Tesla's purchase of Solar City, which 370 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 5: Elon Musk also co founded. 371 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was gonna go there. So now that you've 372 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 4: jumped the shark, so tell us remind us a little 373 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 4: bit about the Tesla Solar City saga from years ago. 374 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 5: Well, right, So, so Elon Musk started this solar company, 375 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 5: Solar City, that went public and then ran into a 376 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 5: lot of issues. Basically, it's its main business, which was 377 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 5: installing solar panels, became less and less profitable, and Tesla 378 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 5: eventually bought it in what, at the time to some 379 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 5: critics looked like a bailout. I think in retrospect it 380 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 5: does look that way, because Tesla has not done as 381 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 5: much with solar than as I think some some sort 382 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 5: of solar fans, you know, would have hoped. I think, 383 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 5: you know, we could look back at this that way. 384 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 5: On the other hand, you know, if when the singularity 385 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 5: comes and when we're all praying to our robot gods 386 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 5: and they're not already Yeah, not me, but I know 387 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 5: that I understand that some are. But you know, maybe 388 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 5: this will look like a smart move if Tesla's in 389 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 5: the AI business, Elon Musk is somewhat distracted, has this 390 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 5: other AI company. I do get the argument that even 391 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 5: if you're just a Tesla shareholder being totally kind of 392 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 5: rational about this, that you would just say it'd be 393 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 5: better if these were one thing. 394 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: Dnaholl what say you? 395 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 3: Well, this is where related party transactions get super interesting 396 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 3: because you have to remember that Xai is a customer 397 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 3: of Tesla. Tesla sells their megapacks, which are the batteries 398 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 3: that power utilities, you know, the big energy storage product 399 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 3: that Tesla is banking on to Xai. This data center 400 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 3: in Memphis that Xai is building is like now filled 401 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 3: with megapacks. And so there's a lot of ways in 402 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 3: which the companies are already overlapping with each other. Groc 403 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 3: is now being integrated into Tesla's cars. So I guess 404 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 3: I'm curious for Kurt, like, do you think there's do 405 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 3: you think that Tesla would buy Xai or would like 406 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 3: which vehicle is more important to elon going forward? 407 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 4: Before you answer that question, Kurt, I will say, right, 408 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 4: so you have Xai buys x right, indeed, now does 409 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 4: Tesla buy Xai or to I mean, like one fish 410 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 4: keeps eating the other, what's the next fish to get 411 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 4: consumed here? 412 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: I think it really depends on the amount of money invested. 413 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: We saw SpaceX, for example, already invest in Xai, and 414 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: I believe it was a two billion dollar investment. In 415 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: the world of tech right now, and certainly in the 416 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: world of AI, that's relatively small, right. This is not 417 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: a massive we are chaining ourselves to this company forever 418 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: and if they go down, we go down with them 419 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: kind of situation. And so if that's what we see 420 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: from Tesla, is you know, hey, here's two billion dollars, 421 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: here's five billion dollars. Other than the fact that it's 422 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: a massive conflict of interest, I think we probably all 423 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: agree this same person running two companies. I don't think 424 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: it's that dramatic of an idea to say, hey, there's 425 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: this up and coming AI startup, let's pick our horse here. 426 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: If they decide to go the opposite, and I think 427 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: Xai is raising money somewhere around two hundred billion dollars 428 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: or something like that. So if Tesla were to try 429 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: to swallow this whale hole, that is where I think 430 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: things become incredibly not only you know, probably inappropriate if 431 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: you're a Tesla shareholder, but become much more potentially damaging 432 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: for Tesla too, because now all of a sudden, you 433 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: are in that situation where if Xai goes down, you're 434 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: probably going to have a meaningful decline with it. And 435 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 1: so until we know the investment amount, it's a little 436 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: bit hard for me to say whether this is like 437 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: the worst idea or the best idea ever. We have 438 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: heard Elon say he doesn't believe Tesla should buy Xai. 439 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: Now we all know that Elon's saying one thing doesn't 440 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: necessarily make it so, But as far as what he 441 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: has said publicly, he sees this as an investment, not 442 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: an acquisition, And I think until we know the dollar amount, 443 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: we kind of have to reserve a little bit. 444 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 3: And he did a poll a while back where he 445 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 3: floated the idea of was it wasn't it five billion? 446 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 3: But then the I think it was five billion, and figure. 447 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 2: But then what were what were the pole results? It's 448 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 2: like flat putin. 449 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: Well, you'd be shocked, David to learn that the pole 450 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: that Elon put out on X was in favor of 451 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: such a thing. So I'm sure that's surprising. 452 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 5: Even at two billion or five billion or whatever. Sure, Like, 453 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 5: what's the argument for a Tesla shareholder that this is 454 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 5: a good use of their cash because like they could 455 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 5: also invest in open Ai or Anthropic or one. 456 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 2: Of the other. 457 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 5: I don't understand, except like, what's gonna make our CEO happy? 458 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 5: And he's gonna he's gonna baby be happy, like if 459 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 5: a happy Elon is a happy Tesla, Like. 460 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 4: I mean, like, what's going to go out and sink 461 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 4: money at the Sam Altman's company. Come on, he'll be 462 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 4: He'll go around Poudy phase for months. 463 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 1: Two things, one part of the investments, like, yes, could 464 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: they invest two billion dollars in open Ai they I'm 465 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: sure sureholders would. But the open ay is not going 466 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: to take Elon in Tesla's money, right, So okay, So 467 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: some of these avenues are close to them. But the 468 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: thing you just said actually in Elon Inc. In the 469 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: world of Elon, is a real thing, like do you 470 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: keep Elon happy, do you keep him motivated? Do you 471 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: keep him feeling like, yeah, spending money on and time 472 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: on his Ai startup? That does not benefit a Tesla shareholder. 473 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: And so if you're sitting there saying, hey, I think 474 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 1: Xai and everything Elon touches is going to go from 475 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: two hundred billion to a trillion, then you're a shareholder 476 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: saying this is my chance to five x my my 477 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: investment in Xai. So again, these are all hypothetical, but 478 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: you have to and I know you know this, Max, 479 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: but if you are an Elon fan and Elon stan 480 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: and investor, this is the way you think of it 481 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 1: is that you are building and buying into the world 482 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: of Elon Musk. And that's what makes sense, I think 483 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: to a lot of people. 484 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 4: All Right, Dane, so you told us the Musk pay 485 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,959 Speaker 4: package totally sales through November six, So too, then does 486 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 4: does this one? Whether it turns out to be exactly 487 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 4: binding or not, this one gets thumbs up from shareholders. 488 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 3: As well, I think. So, I mean Elon has signed 489 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 3: that he approves it, and we have to remember that 490 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 3: Tesla has a very engaged shareholder base. Retail investors actually 491 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 3: do vote their shares. You know, the board will be 492 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 3: doing a lot of discussions with the big institutional investors, 493 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 3: and I'm sure they'll be campaigns around these various items 494 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 3: that will be before everyone. 495 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 5: I mean, if you do think about the challenges that 496 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 5: some of these AI companies face, which is that, like 497 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 5: it's not clear that the returns from using large language 498 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 5: models are awesome. You also wonder, like how easy is 499 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 5: it going to be for them to say, like double 500 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 5: sales from where they are now. Like, obviously a lot 501 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 5: of big companies are purchasing licenses for large language models. 502 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 5: This is potentially a growth field, Like if you buy 503 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 5: into the idea that Elon's going to put a million 504 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 5: starts on a million optimizer year or whatever, like this 505 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 5: is definitely perhaps a more promising growth channel than like 506 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 5: Rock's current like number one revenue stream, which is I 507 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 5: think memes. 508 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, that's a big that's a big business. 509 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: Soon to be video games, and I think like an 510 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: AI movie. 511 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 4: So for posterity, here here's my call. Right Indeed, Xai 512 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,199 Speaker 4: bought X, Tesla will at some point in the not 513 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 4: so distant future buy XAI SpaceX, then buys Tesla and 514 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 4: then the last one. The US government buys the whole thing, 515 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 4: buy SpaceX. 516 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: For fifty dollars the Russian nestindl of Ink. 517 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 4: All right, let's sen Kurt stick with us for a 518 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 4: second here, because we're actually this is a little gift 519 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 4: that we were handed. In a story from Politico yesterdays, 520 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 4: I feel like we have another. Cage match is still 521 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 4: a thing, Max. We haven't done a cage match in 522 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 4: a long long time. But you remember the Scott Bess 523 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 4: and Elon musk Uh streaming match where apparently there was 524 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 4: even maybe a little there was a little freakus. 525 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 2: There was a little altercation, a little rough housing. 526 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 5: There are some reports of a shove, I believe maybe 527 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 5: like a physical alter It depends on who you're who 528 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 5: you're listening to. I think Steve Bannon mentioned a physical something, 529 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 5: a physical present. 530 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 2: Elon is a big guy. Yeah, he's a pretty big. 531 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 4: Guy too, And apparently at one point bessn't the Treasury secretary. 532 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 4: This is back when Elon was in Washington twenty four 533 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 4: to seven, back in the winter and early spring. Best 534 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 4: In at one point it said to musk as they 535 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 4: were going nose to nose about some some point or another. 536 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 2: You you you now. 537 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 4: At the time, we all thought and assumed it was 538 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 4: just Musk that like, you know, obviously Musk. 539 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 2: Had just brought it out of it, brought it out 540 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 2: of him Ian. 541 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 4: I think the Atlantic wrote that, you know, Musk brought 542 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 4: it out of this mild mannered billionaire. Turns out, we 543 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 4: find out this week Scott Bessen is no mild mannered billionaire. 544 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 4: He and Bill Poulty, right of of now rising fame, 545 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 4: head of the Federal Housing Finance Agency and a and 546 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 4: a prominent Trump loyalist, went toe to toe themselves just 547 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 4: the other day, with Bessen getting in Poultice's face and 548 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 4: saying to him, why the are you talking to the 549 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 4: president about me? He likes the word I'm noticing here, 550 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 4: I'm gonna punch you in your face, So. 551 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 5: The same phrase basically. 552 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 4: So kind of yes, the same word at least. So 553 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 4: what I'm thinking is it's either the best in Musk. 554 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 4: One has to happen, because Besson still seems like he's 555 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 4: got some of these anger, some of the animosity I 556 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 4: feel like is still for Musk, or so we get that, 557 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 4: make that happen, or we go the three of them 558 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 4: are ringing. 559 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 5: So, Okay, I'm really glad you brought this up, David. 560 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 5: This really brings up a lot of important questions. I 561 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 5: think you're right that you could you could say, well, actually, 562 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 5: what we've learned is that Scott Beson is just like 563 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 5: a guy likes to pix it up, you know, who 564 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 5: can get physical, and that reputation of being mild mannered 565 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 5: was like not true all along, and we just you know, 566 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 5: we were lulled into that sense. But he has a 567 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 5: Southern accent, he's from like us. He seems like a 568 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 5: you know whatever. But anyway, I think what it could 569 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 5: be is that bessent't like essentially was transformed by this 570 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 5: experience with Musk. 571 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 2: Now, recall that I'm. 572 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 5: Joking mostly, but I do think you think about the 573 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 5: conflict between the two men, it was not clear to 574 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 5: me or I think to anyone else, that Bessnt prevails 575 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 5: in that conflict. Remember, Elon is Trump's number one donor. 576 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 5: He's like the the certified best friend. He's in family photos, like, like, 577 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 5: who is Scott Besson? Exactly right, He's a prominent hedge 578 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 5: fund guy, but certainly not as high profile as Elon Musk. 579 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 5: It would have been possible for Bessint to go toe 580 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 5: to toe with Elon Musk and for this to end 581 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 5: with bessentt in some kind of weird Oval office exit 582 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 5: with his own black eye, just like Elon had hot, 583 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 5: But instead it ended with Elon of Cour exiting the 584 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 5: Trump administration, essentially like Taylor. 585 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 2: Well, you're telling me best, I'm saying Bolden. 586 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 5: In Bolden, he has figured out like this is this 587 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 5: could be a way to take on. 588 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 4: Mosk and Bolden he turned Scott Besson into a different man. 589 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 4: Kurt Wagner, what say you? 590 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I mean, I feel like the least 591 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: qualified person to comment on this thing. But what I 592 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: will say is that we have seen instance defense several 593 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: instances here of Elon also sort of picking some fights 594 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: with people. So I think we just have two two 595 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: rowdy boys over there who are trying to who are 596 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: trying to show their uh this. 597 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 5: Is I mean, this gets this gets pretty far removed 598 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 5: from Elon, But I think this is an intelligent way 599 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 5: to deal with a rival in the Trump administration. And 600 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 5: that is what Scott Bessont learned in the Elon thing. 601 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 5: Because the way these feuds play out is in the media. 602 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 5: The way you get media attention is yeah, by like 603 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 5: a big room of people to reporters and and sam 604 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 5: f word, which I would never do. 605 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 4: I feel like Dana, this conversation is beneath Dana. 606 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 2: She's just she's written. 607 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: Over here, like breaking news or answers, embarrassing ourselves exactly. 608 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 4: Someone's got to work around here. All right, good stuff, Kurt, 609 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 4: thank you for joining. Thank you, Dana, Max brilliant as always. 610 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 5: Of course, always great to be with you, David and 611 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 5: Dana and Kurt. 612 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 4: This episode was produced by Stacy Wong and edited by Annamasirakas, 613 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 4: Blake Maples handles engineering, and Dave Purcell fact checks. Delon 614 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 4: Ink theme is written and performed by Taki Yasusau and 615 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 4: Alex Sugiurra. Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson. Sage Bauman 616 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 4: is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks to 617 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 4: our supporters Joel Weber and Brad Stone. 618 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 2: I'm David Papadopolis. 619 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 4: If you have a minute, rate and review our show, 620 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 4: it'll help other listeners find us. See you next week.