WEBVTT - The War on Trans People: Part 2, TERF Island 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:07.760 Welcome dick had happened Here? A podcast about the war 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:12.480 against trans people. I'm your host Christopher Wong. In February, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.280 a camp of indigenous and ecological protesters attempting to stop 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:19.439 the Thacker Past lithium mine in Nevada was thrown into 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:24.440 chaos over an unexpected issue, transphobia. Two of the camp activists, 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:26.720 including a man who had volunteered to act as an 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.720 attorney for the group, revealed to be members of another 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:35.040 organization called Deep Green Resistance or DGR. Nominally, Deep Green 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:39.360 Resistance is an ecological organization dedicated to destroying industrial society 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.240 to preserve the environment through promoting the destruction of damns 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:46.080 and other infrastructure. Deep Green Resistance found little success on 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.720 this front, but they have been much more successful in 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:52.839 spreading the other core of their ideology, miligiant, ruthless and 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:57.400 fanatical transphobia. When the indigenous protesters at Thacker Pass discovered 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.000 the twos membership in DGR and the result in transphole, 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:04.120 they were furious. Falk, the d g R lawyer who 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.920 had offered to represent the protesters, was kicked off the case, 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.600 and the presence of the two d g R members 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.559 was used by Lithium America as a weapon against the protesters. 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.840 This is a familiar cycle for Deep Green Resistance. Soon afterwards, 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:21.160 founding in two thousand eleven, the group fully embraced radical feminism, 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:23.720 staking out a position in an old debate inside the 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:27.199 feminist movement raging since the nineteen seventies over whether trans 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:31.360 women are in fact women. These feminists, used the term 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:35.880 loosely here became known as trans exclusionary radical feminists or turfs. 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:39.640 Through heroes were people like Janis Raymond, author of the 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:44.960 vehemently Transphobicscreed the Transsexual Empire. Raymond, whose BaFL influence we 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.760 will return to next episode, was largely ran out of 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:49.960 the mainstream American feminist movement with the rest of her 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.800 TURF companions. A similar fate would befall Deep Green Resistance. 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:58.400 Ecological activists in groups like Earth First, Green Peace, the 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:02.040 i w W, and the a Green Anarchist Movement. Sists 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.960 and trans alike ran d g R out of the 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.840 ecological left for the transphobia and waged an incredibly successful 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:13.960 no platforming campaign against DRS founders Derrek Jensen and Leary Keith. 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:16.959 Driven from the left, so thoroughly. They were reduced to 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:19.680 slinking into protest camps in secret, only to be expelled 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:23.760 upon discovery. Members of Deep Groom Resistance moved right and 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.280 increasingly to other countries to seek an audience for the 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:30.320 transphobic bile. Leary Keith founded a turf organization called the 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:34.520 Women's Liberation French or Wolf. More on them later. This 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.440 brings us a turf extraordinaire, Jennifer Billock, but it had 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.480 been a member of Deep Green Resistance in charge of 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.240 booking appearances for Derrick Jensen. The successive and no platform 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:46.360 in campaign waged by the left convince her that trans 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:50.000 people were secretly backed by a conspiracy of billionaires. This 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.560 idea spread like wildfire across the UK and as well 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:57.960 discussed next episode Mexico. To understand what happened in the UK, 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.280 we spoke with christa Peterson graduate student at USC who, 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.520 at significant personal cost, confronted the rise and spread of 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:09.360 transphobia and the English speaking world. Krista, Welcome to the 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:11.919 show and thank you for joining us. Hi, thank you. 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:16.480 I guess I wanted to start with Jennifer Billick and 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:21.000 talking a bit about how how how she sort of 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:28.040 moved into increasingly increasingly transphobic territory, and I guess how 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.680 she started moving into the sort of follow the money 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:36.280 conspiracy theories that she's been peddling for the past several 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.520 years now. Yeah, So I give you her narrative of 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.600 this UM, which is that in two thousand thirteen, I 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.520 think she was supposed to be on a panel UM 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:55.640 about bank transpeople UM that was canceled because of pushback UM, 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:58.240 and then because of that she thought what is the 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:02.760 big force behind this and got into it from there UM. 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:07.160 But she has really I think you know that Deep 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:11.200 Green Resistance was kind of into UM focusing on trans 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:15.760 people for a while, but she really has gone from 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.800 an environmental activist as someone who's just solely focused on 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:23.320 treads people. It's basically all she is ever talking about UM, 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:28.840 and she's kind of she started as opposing this kind 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:33.240 of existential threat UM that was real, which was ecological 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:37.120 destruction to common UM, and she has kind of maintained 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:40.440 that tenor in the shift where now she's portraying this 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.200 as an existential threat but instead of quite a change, 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.320 it's trans people. So the way she got into the 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:50.040 money UM, she's just a very prolific, kind of at 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.960 home researcher um. And she kind of had this anti 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:58.440 corporate mindset going in from her background, and she she 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:02.680 produces a lot of research. There's not that many people 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.560 in the gender critical movement are really producing a lot 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:09.080 of original content, and so when someone is there's really 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.120 they can get a lot of uptake from that. Um. 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.320 Her main her first thing was actually a Federalist article 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:22.640 about who are the rich white men institutionalizing transgender ideology? Um, 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.120 And just by being a pretty big platform, I think 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.359 that got some big initial distribution and I think that 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:33.239 was how people initially started seeing her kind of beyond 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:37.719 the deep green resistance type audience. Yeah. And now, I 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.120 mean that's one of the things that that's been very 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:42.200 interesting to be studying this is that you see this 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:46.680 a lot. You see a lot of people who we're 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.440 sort of run out and left by their transphobia, like 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.880 pivoting really hard right and then using right wing media 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:57.000 platforms and using sort of also writing political backing to 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:01.719 start pushing this stuff. And I think, yeah, Bill looks 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:06.800 an interesting example to me because yeah, she is she 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:09.320 talking a bit about this more. I mean, she has 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:13.240 this weird because she she has two weird angles. She 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:17.040 has the weird trans humanism angle, and then she has 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:23.120 this like incredibly like when becomes like an increasingly anti 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:28.000 semitic angle. Yeah, so where she so she's following the 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:30.760 money is the original thing? Where she follows the money too, 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:35.240 is um trans rights are a conspiracy to usher and 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:39.360 trans humanism. Um. So her thing is she often says 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.360 transgender is an ad campaign for trans humanism. This is 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.400 a quote to get people comfortable with actual emerging with 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:50.080 machines slash air ai, there must be a complete dissociation 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.440 for biological reality. So I just you see this a 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.000 lot with conspiracy theories. I think where you have this 0:06:56.080 --> 0:07:00.440 kind of like metaphorical goal right where it's all about 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.599 getting people to dissociate from their bodies. It's like not 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:06.680 very clear what that looks like when an actual causal level, 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.880 but that's that's the big goal, right, um, and they 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.600 need a big goal. It's there's kind of this mysterious 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.880 part of this supposed conspiracy um that is trans rights, 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.800 which is like what is this for? Right? They lots 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.480 of people now are accepting that there's like this big 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:30.680 dark money pushed behind it, um, which raises a question, 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:34.800 why what what is this doing? Um, and the answers 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:39.600 are kind of cookie right, So this one has caught 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:44.640 on more than I would have expected. It's really weird, 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:50.200 so they kind of walk into it slowly, right, They 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.440 start off and it's I think there's something weird with 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:58.680 trans rights, and they have it's very common for them 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:02.840 to think that their opponents don't really believe their beliefs. 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.880 Something is up for some reason. All these people are 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:11.040 supporting trans reads when they know it's bad that you 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.000 need you need something to go in there to explain why. 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:19.520 And this is a narrative that fits with Billick's worldview. 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.040 You know, you can see how some with her background 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:25.840 would get here. It's kind of unusual for all these 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:30.239 ladies from the UK now to believe that trans people 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:34.280 are trans human conspiracy, but they needed something to go 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.840 there as the goal. They picked it up. Yeah, I 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.520 guess I guess we should get into Mom's net a 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:46.880 little bit because most it's a really weird, like specifically 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:51.920 UK thing that I don't know if there's like there's 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:54.120 not really an American equivalent to it, Like I guess 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.040 it's like it's like it's like what if you took 0:08:56.080 --> 0:09:01.040 the worst parts of Facebook ends next door I guess us. Yeah, 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:03.280 can you talk a little bit about like what Mom's 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.520 net is and how this stuff sort of sort of 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:09.000 seeping into it. Yeah, So this is part of this 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.640 bigger question, which is why in the UK has taken 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.520 off so much in the way it has a big 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.439 part of that story is Moms, that which is a 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:23.640 website for moms um to ask kind of parenting questions UM. 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.600 And it's really widely used, I think, especially amongst kind 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:33.520 of like white, upper middle class educated population. A lot 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:35.480 of people are on moms and it's kind of a 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.640 trusted website for a lot of familial type things like 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:40.880 advice about what to do when your kid has life, 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:45.960 things like that, and Moms has become just like the 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:49.840 main infection point I think in the gender critical movement 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:54.199 the UK with why it happens more generally, do you 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:55.800 have to look at it as kind of part of 0:09:55.840 --> 0:10:00.439 this global resurgence and fascism around the same time it 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:05.320 it's like the mids on um, you know, like the 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.000 most obvious instances of that have the kind of traditional 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:12.160 fascist targets and ideals. UM. I think what's essential is 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.199 this kind of logic that you really see in the 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.959 gender critical movement also, which as you have this kind 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.280 of background climate of anxiety and fear, then you get 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:24.560 this narrative that's minorities are rising up against you. You've 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.959 lost something, your identity used to give you a special 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:30.360 status and now they're taking it from you and you 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.280 have to fight back. Um. And it's how they've kind 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:36.439 of switched out, like what the big identity is, who 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.440 the minorities are, what the special status is with this 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.520 more feminist thing, But it really does have that kind 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:48.280 of internal logic in the same way. Um. And I 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:52.319 think you just had this kind of moment globally where 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:55.240 you have the kind of background emotional state that was 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:59.640 ripe for fascism a lot of ways, and then this 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:04.240 aology it's just infectious in that way. And then in 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.640 Moms Night it was able to catch it really provide 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:12.640 right over this place where really grow into this kind 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:18.920 of unusual demographic group for a kind of fascist movement. Yeah, 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.240 I mean I think there's there's there's an interesting I 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:23.040 think there's the other interesting thing to me about it 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.440 is like I don't know, I've been thinking about this 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:29.720 a lot in terms of yeah, why why specifically the 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:34.760 UK and why the US doesn't have this? And I mean, 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:37.160 I mean, you know, I mean, I guess one one 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.560 explanation for it partly is like the US is so 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.120 much more religious than the UK is, and a lot 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.200 of these people sort of would have been evangelicals in 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:49.840 like in the US. But but yeah, I think the 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:54.960 months that angles interesting to me in that it really 0:11:55.000 --> 0:12:01.160 seems like because there's so few people publishing anything that's 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:05.120 even remotely tangible, like a very very small number of 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.600 actors were able to very quickly radicalize people. And I think, 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:12.079 I don't know, and I think it's interesting that like 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.320 like people like Jesse Son gall like I think, wind 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.000 up being much more influential in the UK than they 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:19.640 are in the US, even til they're getting sort of 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:26.959 published in these US publications, because there's sort of I 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.200 don't know, I guess there's there's this like hunger for 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:31.800 it on Mom's night, like for for anything that sort 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:33.679 of supports his worldview in a way that there's kind 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.240 of wasn't in the US. I think part of why, 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.560 like the y UK question, there's some part of it 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:44.679 that's just kind of by chance moms that existed was 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.520 a place where it could really take off. I think 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:51.200 also to some extent, like you're a litt I think 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.120 kind of part of the relevant group in the US 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:00.640 is like a little more inoculated against this stuff. I 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.360 mean that it doesn't really have the same initial appeal 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:08.280 among women who would like to construe construe themselves as 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:12.439 feminists because many many Americans see anti trends stuff and 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.840 immediately um connected to like the religious right. So it 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:20.160 doesn't you don't really get the initial way into it 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:24.000 where you know, you come across this thing presenting trans 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:28.120 people as encroaching on your space and taking something from you. 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.160 And for us, we see that and it's like, oh yeah, 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:34.760 bathroom bill laws really just had this a few years ago, 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:38.120 and it was this right wing religious thing. We know 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:40.800 what this is. The UK has kind of had a 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:45.080 more prominent turf activision for a little while and that 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.960 Julie Bendel's kind of long ben a thing there, um, 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.640 but it wasn't really catching in the same way it 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.599 is now really caught. Yeah, I guess, I mean, what 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:56.120 are the other things that I was talking I had 0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:00.920 an interesting conversation that sadly didn't wind up getting recorded. 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.920 But what was talking with some Mexican feminists like trans 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:05.360 feminist about this, and one of the things they were 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.160 saying was the way like talking about the way like 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.079 intersectionality is a framework and the fact that there is 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.199 there was an incredibly strong black feminist current in the 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:19.120 US insulated like the main line of of American feminism 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.720 from this stuff in a way that didn't really happen 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:25.240 in the UK because like the Black feminist movement there 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:30.000 is just not as strong and not as sort of mainstream, 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:32.600 and that has this knock on effect. I guess we're 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:37.960 like you get you know, without an intersectionality framework, is 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:40.920 it's easier to have this sort of like totalizing like 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.360 identity of like the woman as like a thing that's 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:47.160 just one object that you can like pin down to 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:50.000 biological barkers instead of having to sort of like look 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:54.480 at all of the different actual relations that are going on. Yes, 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.840 so my read on them is that most of them 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.640 are not really we're not pre existing feminists. Um, there 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:05.360 were not people who are very interested in women's rights, 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.760 And then kind of took this turn my pressures that 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:12.080 they're largely people who really started identifying as feminists once 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.600 that that could be a guys to kind of take 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.880 things out on trans people. Um and I think probably 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.800 why it was able to get so big on Mom's Net. 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:26.440 So eventually the women's rights for my Mom's Net, which 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:28.680 is just one of the sub boards, in addition to 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:32.920 all the childcare stuff, just became almost all anti trans stuff. 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:37.480 And so that is partially this stuff was popular. Um. 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.000 But I also I think that you know, normal mainstream 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.120 feminist stuff wasn't as popular, and they weren't getting a 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:47.520 lot of engagement on normal important feminist issues, um and 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.360 instead this was what their user base was really going for. 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:56.400 It's really striking I think how those exceptions. Um. But 0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.720 in general, the big gender critical people talk very very 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:04.720 little about all feminist issues. This is d thing they 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.200 care about all the time. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely a 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.440 pouting what turfs where it's like yeah once once once, 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:12.200 you're a turf, Like this is the only thing you 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.720 care about, Like you don't you don't do Yeah. I 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:16.600 mean I guess like one of one of the we'll 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.160 talk more about this in the next episode, but one 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:26.120 of the sort of big like flagship things in like 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.080 with the UK and Ireland was like a bunch of 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:33.400 the Turfs getting extremely mad at the at at these end, 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.160 at the at the pro like at the pro abortion 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:42.160 activists in UH in Ireland because they weren't being Turfs, 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.000 and so know, the Turfs were like, no, no, no, 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.640 we're gonna like try to sabotage this, the actual feminist 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.520 movement trying to get access to abortions because we're Turfs 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:58.160 and they're not. Yeah, they can be really vindictive against 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:01.800 women who they say are selling out women's rights by 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.679 focusing on anything other than the tiny present of the 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.400 population that is trands is v one issue you're allowed 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:11.720 to focus on. And if you say, like no, please 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.399 please leave us alone, we're focusing on something else, really 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:27.879 do not take that well. I guess the everything I 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.760 wanted to ask about was because I think that everything 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:32.879 that happened in the UK that only really started happening 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:37.200 in the US like pretty recently and even then was 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:41.320 kind of like it was an event in like a 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:43.600 way that I don't know how much it was in 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:48.040 the UK. Is the extent to which like people like J. 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:49.960 K Rowling and like the sort of the sort of 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:55.080 mainstream of British famous people and like the British British 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.639 journalists stuff like that, like like start started rallying around 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:03.520 this stuff. Yeah, this is It's been wild for me 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:07.679 seeing I don't think super highly of the American media, 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:11.480 but seeing how much worse the British media is really well, 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.200 they just have been publishing stuff things like The Times 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.320 of London have been the worst with more conservative Eletto 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:22.560 especially back but even you know, like The Guardian has 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.639 in some BBC since some uh, these things are just 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:31.680 kind of like demonstrably false coverage of transmit stuff. It 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:36.720 just gives a lot of credence to this transphobic movement. Um. 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:42.120 It's kind of this like near blackout of in serious 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:46.679 consideration of what trans people are experiencing, um and what 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:50.840 their actual position on this stuff is. It's just really grim. 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.320 I think I think part of it is maybe that 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.160 moms that did have this reach to a lot of 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.120 people who are like professionals. They're audience is pretty professional, 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.280 and it was it's kind of trusted website where this 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.520 got normalized a lot. The last thing I wanted to 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:11.639 talk about before um we go to break is do 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:15.240 you want to talk about Kathleen Stock and that whole 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:20.800 thing a little bit. Yes, okay, Also we should talk about, uh, 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.520 we should connect Billick too. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah we 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.600 should we should do that first. Yeah, and so that 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.800 is there was you know Mom's that started. Um. I 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.000 think the initial narrative was kind of trans people are 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:38.720 being really unreasonable, they're really demanding, they're infringing on our status. 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:43.040 This is the thing that was more localized about this 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.640 group that it was easy to cast as unreasonable. Um, 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:48.600 and they were able to take kind of a victim's 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:52.040 stance relative to them. And then it just kind of 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:54.439 kept escalating, right, it just kind of fu it too, 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.880 more and more of this kind of content and then 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:01.800 eventually there yeah, there really was a great site is 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:07.720 kind of anti trans content, and it just got increasingly conspiratorial. 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.920 I think so people at this point, I think almost 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.360 everyone in the gender critical movement thinks that there's dark 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.800 money behind trans rights and they think it's like some 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:23.399 kind of AstroTurf movement for who knows what. Lots of 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:27.919 them will say the goal is like selling you know, 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:38.679 hormones and surgery to people. What it's funding, you know, 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:43.200 a global conspiracy. It's like pretty expensive and how it's 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:50.119 like the most plausible way to get an audience for 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:54.800 this kind of thing. Um. But Jennifer Billick is what 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:57.680 a relatively few people get doing this kind of deep 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:01.720 research UM. And so it's just kind of of the 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:04.320 kind of thing they were looking for. And they have 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:12.840 pretty minimal bullshit filters about what they're willing to see UM. 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:18.400 And this is just pretty rare that they we'll see 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:19.879 a source that seems to be on their side and 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.760 be like, no, there's something wrong with us. Um. And 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:27.600 so she increasingly got fans and a lot of people 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:31.000 hear her stuff secondhand. I think they're not directivating her, 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.479 but people are repeating her on so much of her 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:38.040 stuff now is part of the just the background of 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:42.160 this movement. Like there's this woman, Martin Rothblatt Um who's 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:46.480 it's kind of a random rich woman who was she 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:52.240 was involved in kind of early trans rights activism UM 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:54.959 and I kind of moved on and got interested in 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:58.520 trans humanism stuff instead. She's like kind of a stratulating 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:03.199 um and she is interested in trans humanism stuff and 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:07.560 rich um and is not the architect of the transference movement. 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:11.600 But now you know, they just all, I think that 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:15.200 this person has central role UM and when you see 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.760 them talking about her, it is Jennifer Billock's influence, and 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:22.480 they just don't have they're they just don't have many 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:29.919 defenses against kind of increasingly radicalized stuff. And when I 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:35.320 started kind of looking into Jennifer and I started seeing 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:38.879 her and get you know, when you see people talking 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:45.240 about a conspiracy of people like George Soros, Jennifer Prinsker Jewish, 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:51.399 Roth Blatt is also Jewish. Ye, there there's a red flag, 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.639 and in conspiracy spaces just kind of tends towards anti 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:58.760 Semitism if you're not on the lookout for and if 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:02.439 you're not defend against it. And Billicks not and she 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:08.040 has gotten increasingly into the anti Semitic side of things 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:14.600 UM up to the point where she was boosting Keith Woods, 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:19.000 who is just a Nazi. His content that was largely 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.800 inspired by her work UM about the Jews behind the 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:28.800 transgender movement UM and just taking kind of going from 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.320 stet of non explicit anti Semitic conspiracy theory where you 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:36.479 have this group of people who happened to be largely 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:41.400 filled with Jewish people kind of orchestrating this global conspiracy 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:45.760 to explicitly naming the jew and saying no, this is 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:49.800 a Jewish movement. Um and yeah, and she just like 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:53.760 followed it all the way. Um. And there was some 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:57.399 and I started making a big deal about this. You know, 0:23:57.440 --> 0:24:02.400 there's some pushback from the general critical of met um 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:06.320 but largely and they think I'm like a bad faith 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:10.000 acting right, I'm the enemy. It's they're not gonna take 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:15.520 anything I say really seriously. Um. But also it was 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:18.159 really struck by how some of them were arguing with 0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:22.560 me about this Keith Woods video that was, you know, 0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:26.359 about how this was just a Jewish pot and why 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:29.880 the Jewish religion would inspire you to do something like this. 0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:32.960 And they say, no, this is ananti Semitic there's nothing 0:24:33.000 --> 0:24:36.800 you know, it's just it's very interesting, it's about Judaism 0:24:36.840 --> 0:24:39.719 because they already believed all the background stuff, right, they 0:24:39.720 --> 0:24:42.920 thought that there was in fact this conspiracy that's populated 0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:45.199 by people who happened to be Jewish, and so then 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:49.440 when you take the explicit step, it's they're like, well, yeah, 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:52.240 there's an interesting question, right, why are all these people 0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:59.120 Jewish interest going all the way. But it's just and yeah, 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:02.040 it's just in general the movie is just really not 0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:04.800 have good defenses against this kind of stuff at all. 0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:08.800 And yeah, that's kind of conspiratorial stuff will take you 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:12.119 there if you don't have defenses against it. It's just 0:25:12.160 --> 0:25:16.600 a very old road that comes in exactly that direction 0:25:16.960 --> 0:25:19.000 and is ready for you if you start getting into 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:21.439 this stuff and aren't watching out for it. Yeah, all right, 0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:23.560 so let' let's let's let's let's let's talk about Kathleen 0:25:23.640 --> 0:25:33.760 Stock philosophies horror Child. Oh no, I mean not just Kathleen, 0:25:33.760 --> 0:25:36.760 but you have. One of the things that is noteworthy 0:25:37.960 --> 0:25:40.320 about the movement I think is you have these this 0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:44.560 unusual prominence of academics, one of them being Kathleen Stock, 0:25:44.600 --> 0:25:48.160 maybe the most prominent being Kathleen Stock, Um, but also 0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:51.560 like Rosa Freeman and Selena's Odd and you have this 0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:56.840 kind of academic face of it. And it's very interesting 0:25:56.960 --> 0:25:59.480 I think how that works UM, and that these people 0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:05.320 are in generally not doing kind of substantive research on 0:26:06.520 --> 0:26:11.480 anything relayed to this UM. Instead, what I see is, 0:26:11.920 --> 0:26:14.960 you know, stuff starts out in the community. Um, it's 0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:18.840 like on Mom's ned, it's on Twitter, and then Kathleen 0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:22.000 Stock picks it up, right, she is getting her stuff 0:26:22.160 --> 0:26:25.600 kind of from mom's ned and stuff, and then just 0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:28.760 legitimizing it. Right, It's like, oh, this is what these 0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:34.200 fancy professors think. And then centrally their role is claiming 0:26:34.640 --> 0:26:36.960 that there are all these serious issues, you know, on 0:26:37.000 --> 0:26:40.280 the basis of their academic status, um, and saying that 0:26:40.560 --> 0:26:42.520 trans people aren't willing to discuss it. You know, trans 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:45.639 people are shutting down debate, they're being silenced. Um. It 0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:49.680 gives it this legitimacy that the movement I think really 0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:55.399 capitalizes on. Yeah, which I think with Stock in particularly, 0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:59.800 you know there part part of what's happening is like 0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:03.960 the anti transmitment kind of like moves between different conservative 0:27:04.000 --> 0:27:06.240 panics and so like like the modern one they're on 0:27:06.240 --> 0:27:08.720 the state of the children panic. But when Stock was 0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:11.679 sort of like getting big and you can see this 0:27:11.720 --> 0:27:15.439 with the end of her career arc uh she'll get 0:27:15.480 --> 0:27:17.280 to in a second, but she was big on the 0:27:17.320 --> 0:27:22.640 whole sort of like like conservative callus canceled, like college 0:27:22.640 --> 0:27:26.480 free speech crisis, like can't I guess, sort of cancer 0:27:26.520 --> 0:27:29.840 culture also, but yeah, she was really big on the 0:27:29.880 --> 0:27:32.399 on the whole, like, yeah, the conservatives are being silence 0:27:32.520 --> 0:27:33.840 or like I don't even sort of like I think 0:27:33.880 --> 0:27:38.640 she was kind of doing the like liberal centrist thing, 0:27:38.840 --> 0:27:42.000 but but she was. Yeah, she she was doing all 0:27:42.000 --> 0:27:44.719 these censorship claims and then turning around and just actually 0:27:44.720 --> 0:27:51.280 censor people. And it was yeah, yeah, I gave a 0:27:51.320 --> 0:27:57.320 talk at Sussex Cathlete University that I believe she tried 0:27:57.359 --> 0:28:04.399 to have canceled. Come on. It was just kind of 0:28:04.400 --> 0:28:09.000 interesting because I initially this talk was kind of scheduled 0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:11.520 as a protest at the same time as one of 0:28:11.560 --> 0:28:14.280 her as a talk she was going to give on 0:28:14.320 --> 0:28:17.160 a related topic, um, And then she canceled her talk. 0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:19.840 So I thought she might come to mind, right, like 0:28:20.160 --> 0:28:22.400 free to bay, like ask me questions, and I was like, okay, 0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:27.399 but of course she didn't, right. Instead, I tried to 0:28:27.920 --> 0:28:32.080 just get it shut down. But I think this is yeah, 0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:34.919 it's one kind of the cancel culture thing is kind 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:37.440 of one element, but I think it's really central and 0:28:37.480 --> 0:28:41.040 a lot of their stuff, um, and that the kind 0:28:41.040 --> 0:28:43.080 of in the background of other stuff is like, you know, 0:28:43.160 --> 0:28:47.280 somehow the consensus has been controlled, and like it's the 0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:51.160 result of like the truth not being heard and people 0:28:51.240 --> 0:28:54.120 not considering all these important things that they need to 0:28:54.120 --> 0:28:58.840 consider kind of from care for trans youth too, you know, 0:28:58.880 --> 0:29:01.920 trans woman being able to the bathroom kind of across 0:29:01.960 --> 0:29:05.440 all this, they're running this narrative that the truth has 0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:09.600 been silenced and you know, trance people are being unreasonable 0:29:09.600 --> 0:29:11.600 and have shut it down. I think that is a 0:29:11.720 --> 0:29:20.800 pretty foundational and the other overall narrative they've built. Yeah, 0:29:20.880 --> 0:29:25.680 and it you see this as like, this is one 0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:29.600 of the ways they try to I guess, rest the 0:29:29.600 --> 0:29:35.440 batchel of authority back from literally every actual medical group 0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:39.400 who all agree that you should actually let kids transition 0:29:39.440 --> 0:29:42.080 and you should let adults transition, and that this is 0:29:42.120 --> 0:29:47.520 in fact good and like a thing that medically is 0:29:47.520 --> 0:29:51.960 is like and then like I said, yeah, I mean 0:29:52.000 --> 0:29:54.320 this isn't this is a huge deal. But so, like 0:29:55.120 --> 0:29:58.200 Catholt Sock is a philosopher, right, and so she started 0:29:58.200 --> 0:30:00.440 off her first thing was like, so thing is a 0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:05.160 fund in academic philosophy. Academic philosophers aren't debating whether trans 0:30:05.160 --> 0:30:07.800 women or women in the way that they should. This 0:30:07.920 --> 0:30:11.520 idea that the debates being silenced in philosophy, you know, 0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:15.800 like doesn't have really important consequences. I think the idea 0:30:16.040 --> 0:30:21.720 that like all of mainstream research on trans healthcare and 0:30:21.760 --> 0:30:23.920 like what is in the good and the best interests 0:30:23.960 --> 0:30:29.520 of trans kids. Being able to diligitimize that is really serious, right, 0:30:29.880 --> 0:30:33.240 that it just has these tremendous consequences. I think they've 0:30:33.240 --> 0:30:38.360 been able to be pretty effective on that too. Yeah, 0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:40.560 and that's been really scary in a lot of ways 0:30:40.600 --> 0:30:44.440 because you see like the arguments of these people pioneered 0:30:44.560 --> 0:30:47.800 and the sort of the techniques and the groups that 0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:51.960 they're part of like wind up being core parts of 0:30:52.280 --> 0:30:54.920 the anti trans push in both the UK and the US. 0:30:55.880 --> 0:31:00.680 And yeah, that's extremely scary. It's really scary, right, I mean, 0:31:00.720 --> 0:31:05.040 it's just it's just awful, Like these are their children 0:31:05.640 --> 0:31:09.719 and for them to become the focus of this kind 0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:14.560 of hate movement is just horrifying. And it's just often 0:31:14.600 --> 0:31:20.440 the you know, the history of healthcare for general conforming 0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:24.880 kids is really grim, and it's like they are just 0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:29.320 pushing to kind of go back there and it's just ghastly. 0:31:30.680 --> 0:31:42.360 It's really horrifying to see. Yeah, I guess I think 0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:46.200 that's a that's a good point. We can Okay, this 0:31:46.200 --> 0:31:49.040 is probly should probably be the second ad break, but yeah, 0:31:49.120 --> 0:32:03.320 do you know what else's horrifying ads and we're back. Um. 0:32:03.480 --> 0:32:06.600 What one of the scariest parts I think of what 0:32:06.720 --> 0:32:08.960 was happening in the UK was the extent to which 0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:15.520 I mean not just mainstream British media gets involved in this, 0:32:15.600 --> 0:32:18.040 but I mean literally the BBC, which is which is 0:32:18.080 --> 0:32:19.960 the you know this, this is this is the state 0:32:20.040 --> 0:32:29.320 media organization right starts to just push unbelievably transphobic articles 0:32:29.320 --> 0:32:32.520 out as just regular contents. Um. I think I think 0:32:32.520 --> 0:32:38.440 the probably the most famous one is Yeah, in in October, 0:32:39.360 --> 0:32:47.880 BBC publishes this article that's called We're being pressured into 0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:54.160 sex by some trans women. That is just an just 0:32:54.160 --> 0:33:02.600 just an absolutely appalling display of transfer be a. Um, yeah, 0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:07.080 can you talk a little bit about that? And so 0:33:07.160 --> 0:33:10.840 the this article was framed around the question is a 0:33:10.920 --> 0:33:13.400 lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex 0:33:13.440 --> 0:33:16.640 with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being 0:33:16.680 --> 0:33:20.240 pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners. Um. 0:33:20.320 --> 0:33:25.360 And so the the over arching perspective in the piece 0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:28.200 that you get is that this is a significant problem 0:33:28.240 --> 0:33:33.680 among lesbians. They're experiencing sexual pressure from trans women. Um. 0:33:33.800 --> 0:33:39.280 The reporting strategy that the reporter used was you know, 0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:44.880 just soliciting this one kind of particular narrative from lesbians 0:33:44.880 --> 0:33:47.720 who said that they had had these kind of experiences 0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:50.640 with trans women. Um. The people who are quoted in 0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:54.760 the article who aren't anonymous are gender critical people, right, 0:33:54.800 --> 0:33:58.200 They're like Rose of Don Debbie Hayden. And then there's 0:33:58.280 --> 0:34:03.560 these anonymous women who we don't know who they are. Um, 0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:05.960 but it's not they didn't go and approach you know, 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:11.040 normal mainstream let's be an activists or lesbian organizations to 0:34:11.120 --> 0:34:15.000 see what they were experiencing the community. Right, there's kind 0:34:15.040 --> 0:34:19.600 of no perspective just from any kind of mainstream lesbian 0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:21.799 or at all. That that was one of the things 0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:24.320 that like sort of haunting about this, Like this journalist 0:34:24.360 --> 0:34:25.680 is working on this for age, like I think it 0:34:25.760 --> 0:34:30.200 was like and like like she was specifically trying to 0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:32.440 find this people, these people like people who like had 0:34:32.480 --> 0:34:36.680 to experienced a specific thing and like no normal but 0:34:36.800 --> 0:34:39.919 she couldn't find normal people because it's not a thing. 0:34:40.320 --> 0:34:43.640 And so she she after like many many years, she 0:34:43.680 --> 0:34:47.200 was able to find like a couple of examples, like 0:34:47.239 --> 0:34:52.160 a few examples and mostly from yeah, just open transpops. 0:34:52.600 --> 0:34:55.319 And the article is just like so conceptually sloppy that 0:34:55.360 --> 0:35:00.239 it doesn't distinguish, you know, theoretical discourse about whether you know, 0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:03.719 it's transphobic to just say out of hand you never 0:35:03.800 --> 0:35:07.000 date a trans woman. It doesn't distinguish this from sexual abuse. 0:35:07.520 --> 0:35:10.319 It just kind of takes for granted that they're just 0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:15.000 saying in kind of an abstract theoretical context. Um, that's 0:35:15.000 --> 0:35:18.400 some's like just saying that you won't ever sleep with 0:35:18.440 --> 0:35:22.480 a trans woman. Saying that that is transphobic, is itself 0:35:22.560 --> 0:35:28.400 treated as akin to pressuring someone into sex, right like that, Yeah, 0:35:28.600 --> 0:35:33.240 journalism that doesn't distinguish between just a conversation about sexual 0:35:33.280 --> 0:35:37.160 issues and sexual abuse is just disastrous. There's just something 0:35:37.160 --> 0:35:40.719 serious about this piece, and it's just kind of throughout 0:35:40.760 --> 0:35:43.719 it it's just yeah, like like one of your things 0:35:44.440 --> 0:35:48.600 about this is so they found like a survey, right, 0:35:49.600 --> 0:35:53.640 the journalists went looking for a survey about like like 0:35:53.719 --> 0:35:57.640 what percentage of lesbians have like encountered this encountered this pressure, 0:35:58.320 --> 0:36:02.200 and the only thing they could find was, well, okay, 0:36:02.239 --> 0:36:04.040 the only thing they could find that would like support 0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:07.560 their actual claim was this this pole from this group 0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:11.120 called Get Out the l which is just like a 0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:14.720 group that whose entire purpose is just being anti trans 0:36:14.800 --> 0:36:17.880 people and trying to get rid of them. Yeah, and 0:36:17.920 --> 0:36:19.040 it was just it was just like it was it 0:36:19.080 --> 0:36:22.560 was like a Twitter poll, right, it was like they're 0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:26.240 they're they're publishing as as statistical evidence for their claim 0:36:26.320 --> 0:36:29.400 a Twitter poll from a from a turf group and 0:36:29.440 --> 0:36:32.040 trying to like claim this is serious journalism, and it's 0:36:32.080 --> 0:36:35.880 just yeah, I mean so literally, on the page of 0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:39.560 the statistics they cite in this report, the report approvingly 0:36:39.680 --> 0:36:44.000 cites Janice Raymond saying about all trans sexuals rape women's 0:36:44.040 --> 0:36:46.840 bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact. 0:36:47.480 --> 0:36:49.879 And so like, are we talking about metaphors here? Are 0:36:49.880 --> 0:36:57.319 we talking about sexual abuse? It's just sick. And so 0:36:57.360 --> 0:37:00.680 one of the people who was in a you in 0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:06.480 this um was Lily Cade, who was an adult performer, 0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:11.560 and again throughout this just a trans woman saying that 0:37:11.600 --> 0:37:15.160 the way someone is treating her in a sexual context 0:37:15.200 --> 0:37:19.920 is transphobic, is itself treated as sexually abusive? Um, So, 0:37:20.200 --> 0:37:27.040 Lily Cade, you know, she refused to I think initially 0:37:27.080 --> 0:37:31.280 she refused to be in a scene with a trans woman. 0:37:31.840 --> 0:37:35.200 The later on also refused to um shoot a trans 0:37:35.239 --> 0:37:37.440 woman at all Um when she was working as a 0:37:37.440 --> 0:37:41.960 producer Um. So they kind of get a quote from Lily, 0:37:42.600 --> 0:37:46.960 you know, saying something about women being pressured into sex 0:37:47.360 --> 0:37:51.960 by trans women. And it turns out that Lily Cade 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:54.279 was pushed out of the adult industry because she's like 0:37:54.280 --> 0:37:59.120 a serial rapist, right, So this is there source on 0:37:59.200 --> 0:38:04.600 whether is this problem for assist woman is herself as 0:38:04.600 --> 0:38:07.320 this woman who is a serial rapist, right, And they're 0:38:07.760 --> 0:38:13.560 using this person to portray trans woman as the victimizers 0:38:13.600 --> 0:38:19.080 and it's just so grim. Yeah, just much. It is 0:38:19.120 --> 0:38:21.400 just like haunting. Like one of the other things that 0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:23.279 came out was like part of the stories that they 0:38:23.280 --> 0:38:26.040 said that like no prominent trans women would speak with 0:38:26.080 --> 0:38:28.839 them for the story, and then a prominent trans woman 0:38:28.880 --> 0:38:30.880 was like, no, you guys interviewed me and then didn't 0:38:30.880 --> 0:38:34.399 include it in the article. Yeah. So this was one 0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:37.760 of the people who really Kate had had a conflict 0:38:37.800 --> 0:38:42.120 with was Chelsea Powe Um, another woman and portant who 0:38:42.160 --> 0:38:46.640 had asked if Lily Um she could work really his 0:38:46.680 --> 0:38:49.560 company and Lily said no because she was trans. So 0:38:49.640 --> 0:38:55.759 they talked Chelsea was is a reasonably prominent person Um, 0:38:55.800 --> 0:38:59.080 and they interviewed her didn't include her in the article. 0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:03.160 She says that she told them that Lily had this 0:39:03.800 --> 0:39:09.680 predatory past. They also didn't say anything about that. And 0:39:09.760 --> 0:39:12.400 so we have the situation where we have this person 0:39:12.920 --> 0:39:17.640 who is this this woman who the author has been 0:39:17.680 --> 0:39:22.600 told is a serial sexual predator being presented as kind 0:39:22.600 --> 0:39:27.959 of an authority on women's sexual victimization, supposedly by trans woman. 0:39:28.840 --> 0:39:34.319 She is the victimized, and not only is she a 0:39:34.400 --> 0:39:38.480 serial sexual predator, but she's like specifically attacked people in bathrooms. 0:39:39.040 --> 0:39:44.040 But she's like the famous fearmongering transphobic thing is that 0:39:44.239 --> 0:39:48.799 trans people are going to attack you in the bathrooms. 0:39:49.280 --> 0:39:55.719 Your sources attacks people in bathrooms, and there's just very 0:39:55.719 --> 0:40:00.600 little interest like how women are actually victimized and by who. Yeah, 0:40:00.880 --> 0:40:03.359 and I think like that that's amused to disturbing party here. 0:40:03.400 --> 0:40:06.480 It's like, this isn't just like a negligency of reporting 0:40:06.520 --> 0:40:10.279 thing here. This is just malice. Like if if you 0:40:10.320 --> 0:40:12.319 are told and the thing, it's like it's not it's 0:40:12.320 --> 0:40:15.800 not like it was hard to like find out that 0:40:15.800 --> 0:40:17.799 that you know, it's okay, So someone someone tells you 0:40:17.840 --> 0:40:21.160 that someone else is an abusive, right, it's like okay, 0:40:21.239 --> 0:40:24.279 Like maybe you're a journalist, maybe you're going to be like, oh, 0:40:24.320 --> 0:40:28.160 I should check this out. Like Lily Cage assaulted so 0:40:28.200 --> 0:40:30.520 many people and like rape so many people that like, 0:40:31.400 --> 0:40:35.239 just scrolling through Twitter, I found multiple people who have 0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:37.680 been abused by her, Like this was this was not 0:40:37.719 --> 0:40:40.120 something that was like like she she'd admitted it in public. 0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:41.879 This is not something that was like hard to find, right, 0:40:41.960 --> 0:40:45.120 And and I just want to underline that, which is 0:40:45.120 --> 0:40:49.279 that Willy Kay, after these accusations really got going, she 0:40:49.360 --> 0:40:54.239 did like publicly and she did not deny, and then 0:40:54.280 --> 0:40:57.480 she retired from porn. Yeah, and and and you know, 0:40:57.560 --> 0:41:01.040 and this is something like the BBC does this. They 0:41:01.239 --> 0:41:03.520 do this weird backtracking at this article comes out, everyone 0:41:03.560 --> 0:41:07.400 gets exurely mad at them. But they they refused to 0:41:07.480 --> 0:41:09.719 release the like the tape of the interview they had 0:41:09.760 --> 0:41:11.680 to with Chelsea Poe, which you know, would have proved 0:41:11.680 --> 0:41:14.479 that Chelsea Poe did in fact tell them that Lily 0:41:14.560 --> 0:41:16.800 k was a rapist, and they published the story anyways, 0:41:16.840 --> 0:41:19.520 and there's there's so much of this stuff was like yeah, 0:41:19.520 --> 0:41:24.080 like the they the way they backtrack about it, the 0:41:24.120 --> 0:41:27.160 way that also like so the two places where this 0:41:27.200 --> 0:41:30.600 thing the story Ran was the BBC in Britain, and 0:41:30.840 --> 0:41:33.960 they syndicated it out to Brazil and a few of 0:41:34.000 --> 0:41:37.440 the places that were like that are incredibly transphobic, and 0:41:37.520 --> 0:41:40.760 it ran like and this so just like right in Brazil, 0:41:40.840 --> 0:41:42.880 like ran as a bunch of mainstream news headlines like 0:41:42.920 --> 0:41:44.800 where like news stories and in the major newspapers like 0:41:44.880 --> 0:41:47.759 ran this, and it was I don't know, like there 0:41:47.920 --> 0:41:50.160 there's there's there's this extent to which, yeah, like you're 0:41:50.200 --> 0:41:56.359 watching British state media decide that they actively just want 0:41:56.360 --> 0:41:58.320 to go to war on trans people and they literally 0:41:58.400 --> 0:42:03.279 just do not care that like they are, you know, 0:42:03.480 --> 0:42:07.200 publishing little rapists. And then yeah, I just just the 0:42:07.200 --> 0:42:11.040 BBC's policy, you know is when we interview those responsible 0:42:11.080 --> 0:42:14.760 for ani social behavioral crime, it may cause distress to victims, 0:42:14.880 --> 0:42:18.160 and we should contact victims and advise them of our plans, 0:42:19.560 --> 0:42:21.959 you know what, are viewing criminals. Care must be taken 0:42:21.960 --> 0:42:24.240 to minimize potential of stress this may cause to victims 0:42:24.280 --> 0:42:30.640 of the crime. They they didn't see Lily as this 0:42:30.640 --> 0:42:33.839 is applying to her, right, This is uh, this woman 0:42:33.960 --> 0:42:37.440 who they have been told is a sexual predator. You 0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:41.000 can find this information. I found it pretty quickly all 0:42:41.040 --> 0:42:44.279 of these victims talking about it, her acknowledging it, and 0:42:44.320 --> 0:42:49.560 they didn't identify this this woman as a predator with 0:42:49.680 --> 0:42:53.520 victims who would be like very plausibly upset by seeing 0:42:54.480 --> 0:43:01.120 their rapists treated as an authority sexual abuse, right, And 0:43:01.239 --> 0:43:03.439 this is kind of pervasive, I think in the gender 0:43:03.480 --> 0:43:07.920 critical movement right where if any of you are out there, 0:43:07.960 --> 0:43:11.000 I'm sure you're thinking, women can't be rapists. Rape requires 0:43:11.040 --> 0:43:14.279 a penis, which is in the UK, it's kind of 0:43:14.280 --> 0:43:16.880 a you know, most femin is considered this a pretty 0:43:16.880 --> 0:43:20.080 reactionary way to define righte where it has to be 0:43:20.880 --> 0:43:26.279 um penetration with a penis, and this isn't reflective of 0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:31.040 you know, how women experience sexual assault that it's just 0:43:31.200 --> 0:43:36.880 kind of totally other category UM. And most countries feminism 0:43:37.040 --> 0:43:41.080 consider it quite important that you don't kind of treat 0:43:41.120 --> 0:43:46.360 this as this like categorically different offense um. But the 0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:50.320 gender critical really pushes this perspective where it is literally 0:43:50.320 --> 0:43:54.960 impossible for women too to commit ray, you know. And 0:43:55.080 --> 0:44:00.839 this is they think that when they a brief period 0:44:00.880 --> 0:44:05.480 where they thought that they had identified like that every 0:44:05.560 --> 0:44:08.080 rape that was recorded as committed by a woman was 0:44:08.440 --> 0:44:12.520 trans woman because they thought that it required ipdes and 0:44:12.560 --> 0:44:15.200 they thought that that was the only way that's possible, 0:44:15.280 --> 0:44:17.759 and so you can actually be convicted of it if 0:44:17.800 --> 0:44:20.640 you were aiding and abetting. I think they thought that 0:44:20.680 --> 0:44:22.480 they had all of these and they just have this 0:44:22.560 --> 0:44:27.160 overall perspective where it is literally impossible for you know, 0:44:27.239 --> 0:44:31.200 they say a woman meaning the assist woman to commit 0:44:31.280 --> 0:44:35.360 a sexual offense, and in doing this they create cover 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:41.600 for sis woman predators. Like it creates this context where 0:44:42.400 --> 0:44:48.680 that their victimization just disappears. People can't even acknowledge it. 0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:52.640 And yeah, and like I think like the the extent 0:44:52.719 --> 0:44:56.839 to which this whole movement is built on violence, and 0:44:56.960 --> 0:44:59.120 it is built any and there are so many people 0:44:59.120 --> 0:45:01.719 that that the general to go people work with your abusers. 0:45:02.320 --> 0:45:05.319 There are you know, and I don't know, like I 0:45:05.320 --> 0:45:07.440 want to come back to like the last piece of 0:45:07.480 --> 0:45:09.600 the Lily Kid thing, which is that after this article 0:45:09.640 --> 0:45:12.680 came out, the BBC initially basically didn't do anything right 0:45:12.680 --> 0:45:17.120 even after the rape out. Yes, yeah, and then Lily 0:45:17.280 --> 0:45:24.120 K published one of like one of the most transphobic 0:45:24.160 --> 0:45:26.600 things I've ever encountered in my life, like a a 0:45:27.760 --> 0:45:34.680 just this it gets called a manifesto, Like I don't 0:45:34.239 --> 0:45:37.880 think like a manifesto. It was terrified. Yeah, like she 0:45:37.880 --> 0:45:42.440 she's she she's explicitly like like like name specific trans 0:45:42.440 --> 0:45:45.440 women that she wants lynched. Like there's a bunch of 0:45:45.440 --> 0:45:48.440 stuff about the people she wants raped. She wants like 0:45:48.480 --> 0:45:51.360 she wants all trans people to die. Uh, there's a 0:45:51.400 --> 0:45:54.080 there's a bunch of there's like weirdly racist stuff. There's 0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:57.440 like I mean, it's it's it's just it's it's it's 0:45:57.160 --> 0:45:59.600 it is a document that calls for genocide. And the 0:45:59.640 --> 0:46:03.040 part where it's calling for genocide probably isn't, like line 0:46:03.080 --> 0:46:05.279 for line, the most disturbing part of it, because the 0:46:05.320 --> 0:46:12.640 individual threats are like so graphic. And I was terrified 0:46:12.680 --> 0:46:16.279 when I mentioned I was the person who, you know, 0:46:16.320 --> 0:46:19.680 initially dug up the sexual abuse allegations. And when I 0:46:19.719 --> 0:46:23.319 did it, I knew it would kind of it would 0:46:23.320 --> 0:46:25.640 throw a match into her life. I thought that they 0:46:25.640 --> 0:46:27.799 hadn't you know, they were there, they were visible, you 0:46:27.800 --> 0:46:30.560 could find them. But when it had happened, she had 0:46:30.600 --> 0:46:35.800 not really been in the mainstream. I and so I know, 0:46:35.920 --> 0:46:38.600 if it's got an uptake, it would make it bigger. 0:46:39.120 --> 0:46:42.960 And what had and I said, and then you know, 0:46:43.040 --> 0:46:48.200 this woman is posting this terrifying manifest It read like, yeah, 0:46:48.800 --> 0:46:53.719 she shooting someone. Now. It was just so it was 0:46:53.760 --> 0:46:57.000 just terrified. It was like something to be written, you know, 0:46:57.200 --> 0:47:02.600 immediately before someone goes to shoot someone. It was until 0:47:02.640 --> 0:47:06.560 she's tweeting it and tagging the BBC in it. Yeah, 0:47:06.600 --> 0:47:09.920 and like that that finally, like one of the most 0:47:09.920 --> 0:47:12.480 disturbing things I've ever read in my life. Like that 0:47:12.600 --> 0:47:15.840 was finally the thing with the BBC was like, uh, 0:47:15.840 --> 0:47:19.440 maybe we should do something about this. It was just 0:47:19.560 --> 0:47:24.399 so so little, right, this is they took her out 0:47:24.400 --> 0:47:28.080 of the article. Um, they added an update and says, 0:47:28.560 --> 0:47:31.040 we have updated this article published last week to remove 0:47:31.080 --> 0:47:33.960 a contribution from one individual in light of comments she 0:47:34.000 --> 0:47:35.919 has published on a blog post in recent days which 0:47:35.920 --> 0:47:38.480 we have been able to verify. We acknowledge that an 0:47:38.480 --> 0:47:41.200 admission of inappropriate behavior by the same contributor should have 0:47:41.200 --> 0:47:47.200 been included in the original article. So this is yeah, 0:47:47.200 --> 0:47:51.120 there's kind of erased her. Right, So they didn't acknowledge 0:47:51.200 --> 0:47:53.799 that they had included this person in the article who 0:47:53.920 --> 0:47:58.120 just published this genocidal ran. Right, So one of their 0:47:58.160 --> 0:48:03.600 sources is the person who is advocating for killing trans people. 0:48:03.880 --> 0:48:06.840 That is important, right, That is pretty to this narrative 0:48:06.840 --> 0:48:11.960 they're pushing. And they also are not saying, you know, 0:48:12.040 --> 0:48:15.320 they should have we acknowledged that an admission of inappropriate 0:48:15.400 --> 0:48:18.480 behavior should have been included in the original article. It 0:48:18.640 --> 0:48:23.080 really changes the overall narrative of the article. Right, if 0:48:23.160 --> 0:48:27.719 you acknowledge this sis woman is a serial pro Right, 0:48:27.800 --> 0:48:31.600 the overall picture is like six women are at risk 0:48:31.640 --> 0:48:36.600 from trans women and it's a reality check, right to hear. No, 0:48:36.800 --> 0:48:42.600 in fact, this woman who were presenting as like victimized 0:48:43.480 --> 0:48:45.840 is one of the women who's preying on people, and 0:48:45.880 --> 0:48:52.600 she's not a trans woman. And it's just they just, 0:48:53.160 --> 0:48:56.440 you know, even after this responded in a way that 0:48:56.640 --> 0:48:59.520 protected the narrative of the piece, right, they were they 0:48:59.560 --> 0:49:03.600 weren't going to let in anything that acknowledge this. The 0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:07.759 people they're finding with this position are transphobic. This person 0:49:07.920 --> 0:49:11.840 was very red and that it just says, you've removed 0:49:11.880 --> 0:49:16.040 the contribution in light of comments she has published. What 0:49:16.160 --> 0:49:21.359 kind of what do they about? It's serious, right, it's 0:49:21.360 --> 0:49:25.840 seriously not acknowledge that one of their sources is a 0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:32.880 violent transfer. Yeah, this is how I found out that 0:49:32.960 --> 0:49:35.920 she was alive, also them saying that they had been 0:49:35.920 --> 0:49:37.920 able to verify it before that, I had been like, 0:49:38.040 --> 0:49:41.399 she's not very online in a lot of cases. Um, 0:49:42.280 --> 0:49:45.920 so I was really where I didn't know how long 0:49:46.000 --> 0:49:49.120 it was going to be before you know, there's confirmation 0:49:49.239 --> 0:49:51.960 that like in fact that like Kate had not just 0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:57.279 shot someone and herself. Yeah, this was it was just 0:49:57.560 --> 0:50:06.399 really it's manifest. It was terrified. I don't know, it's 0:50:06.440 --> 0:50:11.440 just awful. Yeah, And I think you know, one of 0:50:11.560 --> 0:50:15.960 the things that that's happening here is you get to 0:50:16.080 --> 0:50:19.239 see there's a couple of like there's a couple there's 0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:21.759 like layers at which this stuff operates. So you have 0:50:22.040 --> 0:50:24.880 you know, you have your BBC running diligitimization, right, but 0:50:24.920 --> 0:50:26.360 then you have the stuff beneath it, which is just 0:50:26.400 --> 0:50:29.200 apritly genocidal. And I think, you know, and sometimes like 0:50:29.280 --> 0:50:32.000 with the Lily caide, like if you're going to be 0:50:32.080 --> 0:50:34.120 a turf lily kid kind of blew it right because 0:50:34.160 --> 0:50:38.640 like you can't like okay, like that. You can be 0:50:38.840 --> 0:50:41.640 really really transphobic in a lot of in a lot 0:50:41.719 --> 0:50:44.520 of ways, but like you know, actively calling people to 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:47.640 get lynched is a thing that like even like transphobs 0:50:47.680 --> 0:50:53.439 are are normally like wait what why are you? Yeah? Yeah, 0:50:54.000 --> 0:50:56.719 but but I don't think like that. The mainstream church 0:50:56.760 --> 0:51:00.080 movement is not in a place where you conduced off 0:51:00.239 --> 0:51:04.560 like that. But in some ways I think, you know, 0:51:04.840 --> 0:51:08.520 the stuff that's more moderate is more dangerous. The last 0:51:08.520 --> 0:51:12.160 thing I want to talk about is a document called 0:51:12.200 --> 0:51:17.040 the Decoration on Women's Sex Based Rights, which was was 0:51:17.120 --> 0:51:21.960 put together by a bunch of URF activists, fairly prominently 0:51:22.040 --> 0:51:27.960 featuring arch Australian turf Sheila Jeffreys. But yeah, can you 0:51:28.040 --> 0:51:30.200 can you talk a bit about like what this is? 0:51:30.480 --> 0:51:34.160 And yeah, so this is a document that basically all 0:51:34.880 --> 0:51:38.400 of the gender critical organizations and that you people have signed. 0:51:38.719 --> 0:51:41.759 I mean, it is extreme, right. It calls for trans 0:51:41.840 --> 0:51:46.840 women to be banned from all women's spaces, including toilets, 0:51:47.280 --> 0:51:50.520 which you know, if if we can't go to the bathroom, 0:51:50.560 --> 0:51:53.160 they can't participate in society. Right. It's just like a 0:51:53.239 --> 0:51:56.239 basic need people to have to exist in public um. 0:51:56.880 --> 0:52:00.080 And that it bands all it has to be at 0:52:00.120 --> 0:52:04.920 all internationally recommended healthcare for trans children. UM. It has 0:52:05.000 --> 0:52:09.200 to legally protect deliberate mis gender ing, um, which would 0:52:09.960 --> 0:52:15.200 you know allow you to be just treated with such 0:52:15.360 --> 0:52:20.279 hostility at work, just in public. This is a just 0:52:20.400 --> 0:52:22.960 kind of a threat assault on trans people's ability to 0:52:23.080 --> 0:52:27.400 exist with dignity and society, just live normal lives. And 0:52:29.400 --> 0:52:33.040 you know a lot of general critical people will say 0:52:34.040 --> 0:52:39.400 will portray themselves, you know as only opposing advances for 0:52:39.480 --> 0:52:42.640 trends rights, you know, as not wanting trends rights to 0:52:42.680 --> 0:52:45.920 be rolled back. But with this document calls for is 0:52:46.000 --> 0:52:48.840 like basically every right trans people have to exist in 0:52:48.880 --> 0:52:52.680 their genders, in particular trans women and especially turgis trans women, 0:52:53.000 --> 0:52:55.239 um to just take it all back right and leave 0:52:55.280 --> 0:52:59.320 them with basically nothing. Yeah, yeah, like like they have 0:52:59.440 --> 0:53:02.160 this whole thing but like basically like they want to 0:53:02.280 --> 0:53:07.200 erase the concept of gender identity from law, which is 0:53:07.800 --> 0:53:10.719 like the thing that does is it eliminates all trans 0:53:10.800 --> 0:53:14.360 people from like, it eliminates trans people as a thing 0:53:14.440 --> 0:53:18.080 that the law recognizes exists and things should have protections. 0:53:19.520 --> 0:53:23.239 It's like it's it's it is, you know, like it 0:53:24.000 --> 0:53:26.040 is the legal genocide of trans people like that that's 0:53:26.160 --> 0:53:30.400 that's that's what it is. It's yeah, so they've basically 0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:35.120 all signed this, you know, it is a yeah, it's 0:53:35.200 --> 0:53:39.600 this is not at all. Uh. French document positions itself 0:53:40.000 --> 0:53:44.680 as like, you know, the demands kind of of this 0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:52.799 movement and it's extreme. Um. The organization's spokeswoman is Karadinsky UM, 0:53:53.880 --> 0:53:58.040 who uses almost all of her public appearances. She has 0:53:58.160 --> 0:54:00.600 a number of times been on Tucker Carl said, Um, 0:54:00.800 --> 0:54:03.920 she boost Jennifer Billick all the time. She I think 0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:09.359 it's her biggest supporter. UM and was formerly the chair 0:54:09.920 --> 0:54:15.080 of Wolf, which is Lear Keith's organization. UM. So she 0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:18.920 is front is what stands for it is a cool 0:54:19.040 --> 0:54:21.480 name for an organ that sucks, and they should get 0:54:21.480 --> 0:54:26.520 it back to someone better. Yeah. So this is I 0:54:26.560 --> 0:54:34.400 mean general you see the American turfs kind of in 0:54:34.520 --> 0:54:40.560 this more radical direction. UM also especially explicitly collaborating with 0:54:40.640 --> 0:54:44.600 the right. UM. And here they've made this document that 0:54:44.719 --> 0:54:49.600 just purports to and everyone has signs kind of purples 0:54:50.200 --> 0:54:56.720 direct the overall agenda to one that just leaves trance 0:54:56.760 --> 0:55:00.360 people with just no protections at all. Yeah. And I 0:55:00.440 --> 0:55:02.879 think I think it's you know, the reason I think 0:55:02.880 --> 0:55:04.400 this is in a lot of ways like what ads 0:55:04.400 --> 0:55:08.600 silarly cave things. Again, it's in this like it's not 0:55:08.719 --> 0:55:11.800 actually in legal ees because none of these people are lawyers, 0:55:12.360 --> 0:55:17.120 and oh, Solay said, how how did an actual law 0:55:17.160 --> 0:55:19.000 I mean, okay, I shouldn't be asking how did an 0:55:19.000 --> 0:55:21.560 actual lawyer produce this because I've met lawyers and they're 0:55:22.520 --> 0:55:25.839 they're not they are not as smart and above board 0:55:25.920 --> 0:55:28.520 as they protect yourself to people. Yeah, like this stuff 0:55:28.600 --> 0:55:31.000 isn't making legal arguments. Like one of one of the 0:55:31.080 --> 0:55:33.120 things that they they've like I guess the whole sort 0:55:33.120 --> 0:55:35.520 of gender critical like church movements invented is like this 0:55:36.239 --> 0:55:39.120 this concept of sex based rights, which is not a 0:55:39.239 --> 0:55:44.680 thing like yeah, like like like they all think that 0:55:44.760 --> 0:55:47.000 there's like rights that you have because of your sex, 0:55:47.160 --> 0:55:50.560 and no, this doesn't exist. They completely made this up. 0:55:50.640 --> 0:55:53.239 They keep on like referring to it as if it's 0:55:53.280 --> 0:55:55.640 like a concept that exists in the law. Like none 0:55:55.680 --> 0:55:58.480 of this stuff like in terms of legally is it's 0:55:58.560 --> 0:56:01.359 like it's not thing. It's it's it's, it's, it's, it's 0:56:01.520 --> 0:56:04.359 it's a jumble of words. Yeah, I know. You really 0:56:04.400 --> 0:56:08.320 see as the movements go, they really have really robust 0:56:08.400 --> 0:56:11.279 movement discipline and kind of taking up these terms and 0:56:11.320 --> 0:56:13.080 then saying them all the time as though it's a 0:56:13.120 --> 0:56:15.320 thing everyone's familiar with. One of them is always like 0:56:15.360 --> 0:56:18.400 women's sex based rights, women's sex based rights, like what 0:56:19.640 --> 0:56:25.440 people's rights are based on their sex. This is kind 0:56:25.440 --> 0:56:27.480 of like a whole thing we're doing with fetism. You know. 0:56:27.520 --> 0:56:30.719 It was like, you don't have special rights based on 0:56:30.880 --> 0:56:36.200 being a man, And it turns out that like supposedly 0:56:36.239 --> 0:56:38.279 a law we've thought that you have special rights for 0:56:39.440 --> 0:56:43.480 if you're a woman, to exclude whoever you want to exclude. 0:56:43.520 --> 0:56:49.360 I guess it's yeah, it's just goofy. Yeah, but but 0:56:49.480 --> 0:56:51.560 I think, like it's weird, but it's like it's also 0:56:52.000 --> 0:56:54.640 it has this function, which is that the sort of 0:56:54.760 --> 0:56:57.879 like and like okay, so like I don't My guess 0:56:57.960 --> 0:56:59.560 is that most of the people who have signed this 0:56:59.600 --> 0:57:03.560 document have not read it because you know. But but 0:57:03.719 --> 0:57:06.200 you know, like I think the thing that it does 0:57:06.440 --> 0:57:09.919 is it gives them this this legitimization. It gives their 0:57:09.960 --> 0:57:14.799 goal of exterminating trans people this sort of legal jargon apparatus. 0:57:14.840 --> 0:57:17.520 They can hide behind it like, oh, it's actually from 0:57:18.120 --> 0:57:21.360 the u N and we're basing it on international law 0:57:21.480 --> 0:57:26.240 and that. And the organization used to have this fancy name, 0:57:26.280 --> 0:57:30.360 which was the Women Human Rights Campaign UM and they 0:57:30.480 --> 0:57:34.480 have now dropped that, possibly for legal reasons, but it 0:57:34.640 --> 0:57:39.920 sounds good, right. The websites polished and it seems like 0:57:42.480 --> 0:57:46.560 feel thing. And the they really try to take this 0:57:46.640 --> 0:57:50.880 phrase to and using it just kind of sneak everything. 0:57:51.200 --> 0:57:54.520 And so they'll ask people questions like, well, what about 0:57:54.520 --> 0:57:56.600 women's sex based rights? These are the thing I've never 0:57:56.640 --> 0:58:00.440 heard about before in my life, and but people just 0:58:00.520 --> 0:58:03.360 get on board and I don't really know what's happening. 0:58:03.400 --> 0:58:07.920 And they've Another thing they do is they always portray 0:58:08.360 --> 0:58:13.720 like bathrooms as sex segregated spaces, and every bathroom I've 0:58:13.720 --> 0:58:15.760 ever been and since women on the door and it 0:58:15.840 --> 0:58:20.000 seemed like female bathroom. But they're like, this is like 0:58:20.680 --> 0:58:25.800 sentence is based on sex, not gender. Just making these 0:58:25.840 --> 0:58:30.480 assertions and they have a lot of assertions. Yeah, yeah, 0:58:30.520 --> 0:58:33.000 I think I think that's a good place to wrap up. 0:58:33.040 --> 0:58:42.920 I guess they have a lot of assertions. Yeah, I 0:58:42.960 --> 0:58:48.880 guess they've just underwriting again, what a serious kind of 0:58:48.880 --> 0:58:51.520 attack on trans people's right. So this is right, and 0:58:51.680 --> 0:58:54.240 this is calling for things that would make it very 0:58:54.360 --> 0:58:59.800 hard for trans people to exist. And it's really scared 0:59:00.000 --> 0:59:02.600 watch that. I think I watch it kind of progress 0:59:02.920 --> 0:59:07.320 across this movement and be boosted. It's awful. Yeah, And 0:59:08.440 --> 0:59:10.800 next episode we are going to take a much deeper 0:59:10.880 --> 0:59:14.280 dive into some of the people who signed this document, 0:59:14.560 --> 0:59:18.960 and we are going to see what happens when this 0:59:19.160 --> 0:59:24.120 kind of bloodless but genocidal, legalistic rhetoric makes it into 0:59:24.160 --> 0:59:26.560 the hands of people who are not afraid to do 0:59:26.640 --> 0:59:34.320 physical violence. And it is worse. It is going to 0:59:34.480 --> 0:59:40.360 go worse than you're probably imagining. Just to underline said 0:59:40.400 --> 0:59:44.280 earlier that Jennifer Billicks stuff is, you know, just widely 0:59:44.720 --> 0:59:50.040 now accepted within this movement, and her stuff is portraying 0:59:50.320 --> 0:59:53.760 trans people and trans writs as existential immediate threat. Right, 0:59:53.840 --> 0:59:59.360 she portrays she often says that doctors are like butchering children, right, 0:59:59.560 --> 1:00:02.720 is there making children too slaves? It's stuff that, if 1:00:02.800 --> 1:00:05.280 it was true, would call for kind of an extreme 1:00:05.400 --> 1:00:09.720 level of resistance. And that's kind of what this stuff 1:00:09.760 --> 1:00:12.880 functions to do. Right. If you are accusing people of 1:00:13.160 --> 1:00:18.040 these really extreme offenses and of hurting and threatening all 1:00:18.080 --> 1:00:21.880 of these people, what that motivates is extreme responses and 1:00:22.200 --> 1:00:27.440 volive responses. And Billy herself is sometimes engaged in violent rhetoric, 1:00:28.880 --> 1:00:33.080 but I think many of us who have been following 1:00:33.520 --> 1:00:37.360 this movement are just kind of waiting afraid because that's 1:00:37.400 --> 1:00:39.480 just where it looks like it's going in the US 1:00:39.520 --> 1:00:43.400 and the UK too, kind of like hard to it's 1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:47.400 just so scary, right and like you know, they're mapping 1:00:47.440 --> 1:00:51.240 out where the gender clinics are and it's it's scary 1:00:51.360 --> 1:00:54.680 because where rhetoric like this goes is to a violent 1:00:54.880 --> 1:00:59.800 place and it's hard to see it letting up right now. Yeah, 1:01:00.280 --> 1:01:03.720 and yeah, that is that is the subject of tomorrow's episode, 1:01:03.800 --> 1:01:06.160 which yeah, in which a bunch of people will start 1:01:06.160 --> 1:01:08.680 attacking gender clinics and a bunch of trans people are 1:01:08.760 --> 1:01:13.040 going to get violently assaulted by turfs who are directly 1:01:13.080 --> 1:01:17.720 affiliated with Sheila Jeffreys and our followers of Jennifer Billi 1:01:18.880 --> 1:01:24.000 So Greg, Yeah, Krista, thank thank you for coming on 1:01:24.080 --> 1:01:28.560 and doing this. Yeah, yeah, this has been It could 1:01:28.560 --> 1:01:31.920 happen here. Uh you can find us at happened here 1:01:32.000 --> 1:01:34.960 pot on Twitter and Instagram. We are also there is 1:01:35.000 --> 1:01:39.000 other stuff that we do at the Cool Zone and yeah, 1:01:39.200 --> 1:01:41.439 go go fight for the rights of trans people before 1:01:41.440 --> 1:01:47.960 they ceased to exist. 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