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Speaker 1: Welcome dick had happened Here? A podcast about the war

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Speaker 1: against trans people. I'm your host Christopher Wong. In February,

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Speaker 1: a camp of indigenous and ecological protesters attempting to stop

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Speaker 1: the Thacker Past lithium mine in Nevada was thrown into

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Speaker 1: chaos over an unexpected issue, transphobia. Two of the camp activists,

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Speaker 1: including a man who had volunteered to act as an

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Speaker 1: attorney for the group, revealed to be members of another

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Speaker 1: organization called Deep Green Resistance or DGR. Nominally, Deep Green

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Speaker 1: Resistance is an ecological organization dedicated to destroying industrial society

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Speaker 1: to preserve the environment through promoting the destruction of damns

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Speaker 1: and other infrastructure. Deep Green Resistance found little success on

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Speaker 1: this front, but they have been much more successful in

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Speaker 1: spreading the other core of their ideology, miligiant, ruthless and

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Speaker 1: fanatical transphobia. When the indigenous protesters at Thacker Pass discovered

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Speaker 1: the twos membership in DGR and the result in transphole,

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Speaker 1: they were furious. Falk, the d g R lawyer who

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Speaker 1: had offered to represent the protesters, was kicked off the case,

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Speaker 1: and the presence of the two d g R members

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Speaker 1: was used by Lithium America as a weapon against the protesters.

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Speaker 1: This is a familiar cycle for Deep Green Resistance. Soon afterwards,

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Speaker 1: founding in two thousand eleven, the group fully embraced radical feminism,

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Speaker 1: staking out a position in an old debate inside the

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Speaker 1: feminist movement raging since the nineteen seventies over whether trans

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Speaker 1: women are in fact women. These feminists, used the term

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Speaker 1: loosely here became known as trans exclusionary radical feminists or turfs.

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Speaker 1: Through heroes were people like Janis Raymond, author of the

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Speaker 1: vehemently Transphobicscreed the Transsexual Empire. Raymond, whose BaFL influence we

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Speaker 1: will return to next episode, was largely ran out of

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Speaker 1: the mainstream American feminist movement with the rest of her

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Speaker 1: TURF companions. A similar fate would befall Deep Green Resistance.

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Speaker 1: Ecological activists in groups like Earth First, Green Peace, the

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Speaker 1: i w W, and the a Green Anarchist Movement. Sists

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Speaker 1: and trans alike ran d g R out of the

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Speaker 1: ecological left for the transphobia and waged an incredibly successful

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Speaker 1: no platforming campaign against DRS founders Derrek Jensen and Leary Keith.

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Speaker 1: Driven from the left, so thoroughly. They were reduced to

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Speaker 1: slinking into protest camps in secret, only to be expelled

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Speaker 1: upon discovery. Members of Deep Groom Resistance moved right and

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Speaker 1: increasingly to other countries to seek an audience for the

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Speaker 1: transphobic bile. Leary Keith founded a turf organization called the

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Speaker 1: Women's Liberation French or Wolf. More on them later. This

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Speaker 1: brings us a turf extraordinaire, Jennifer Billock, but it had

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Speaker 1: been a member of Deep Green Resistance in charge of

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Speaker 1: booking appearances for Derrick Jensen. The successive and no platform

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Speaker 1: in campaign waged by the left convince her that trans

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Speaker 1: people were secretly backed by a conspiracy of billionaires. This

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Speaker 1: idea spread like wildfire across the UK and as well

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Speaker 1: discussed next episode Mexico. To understand what happened in the UK,

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Speaker 1: we spoke with christa Peterson graduate student at USC who,

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Speaker 1: at significant personal cost, confronted the rise and spread of

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Speaker 1: transphobia and the English speaking world. Krista, Welcome to the

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Speaker 1: show and thank you for joining us. Hi, thank you.

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Speaker 1: I guess I wanted to start with Jennifer Billick and

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Speaker 1: talking a bit about how how how she sort of

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Speaker 1: moved into increasingly increasingly transphobic territory, and I guess how

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Speaker 1: she started moving into the sort of follow the money

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theories that she's been peddling for the past several

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Speaker 1: years now. Yeah, So I give you her narrative of

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Speaker 1: this UM, which is that in two thousand thirteen, I

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Speaker 1: think she was supposed to be on a panel UM

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Speaker 1: about bank transpeople UM that was canceled because of pushback UM,

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Speaker 1: and then because of that she thought what is the

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Speaker 1: big force behind this and got into it from there UM.

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Speaker 1: But she has really I think you know that Deep

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Speaker 1: Green Resistance was kind of into UM focusing on trans

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Speaker 1: people for a while, but she really has gone from

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Speaker 1: an environmental activist as someone who's just solely focused on

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Speaker 1: treads people. It's basically all she is ever talking about UM,

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Speaker 1: and she's kind of she started as opposing this kind

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Speaker 1: of existential threat UM that was real, which was ecological

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Speaker 1: destruction to common UM, and she has kind of maintained

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Speaker 1: that tenor in the shift where now she's portraying this

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Speaker 1: as an existential threat but instead of quite a change,

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Speaker 1: it's trans people. So the way she got into the

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Speaker 1: money UM, she's just a very prolific, kind of at

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Speaker 1: home researcher um. And she kind of had this anti

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Speaker 1: corporate mindset going in from her background, and she she

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Speaker 1: produces a lot of research. There's not that many people

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Speaker 1: in the gender critical movement are really producing a lot

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Speaker 1: of original content, and so when someone is there's really

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Speaker 1: they can get a lot of uptake from that. Um.

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Speaker 1: Her main her first thing was actually a Federalist article

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Speaker 1: about who are the rich white men institutionalizing transgender ideology? Um,

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Speaker 1: And just by being a pretty big platform, I think

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Speaker 1: that got some big initial distribution and I think that

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Speaker 1: was how people initially started seeing her kind of beyond

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Speaker 1: the deep green resistance type audience. Yeah. And now, I

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Speaker 1: mean that's one of the things that that's been very

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Speaker 1: interesting to be studying this is that you see this

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Speaker 1: a lot. You see a lot of people who we're

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Speaker 1: sort of run out and left by their transphobia, like

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Speaker 1: pivoting really hard right and then using right wing media

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Speaker 1: platforms and using sort of also writing political backing to

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Speaker 1: start pushing this stuff. And I think, yeah, Bill looks

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Speaker 1: an interesting example to me because yeah, she is she

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Speaker 1: talking a bit about this more. I mean, she has

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Speaker 1: this weird because she she has two weird angles. She

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Speaker 1: has the weird trans humanism angle, and then she has

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Speaker 1: this like incredibly like when becomes like an increasingly anti

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Speaker 1: semitic angle. Yeah, so where she so she's following the

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Speaker 1: money is the original thing? Where she follows the money too,

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Speaker 1: is um trans rights are a conspiracy to usher and

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Speaker 1: trans humanism. Um. So her thing is she often says

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Speaker 1: transgender is an ad campaign for trans humanism. This is

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Speaker 1: a quote to get people comfortable with actual emerging with

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Speaker 1: machines slash air ai, there must be a complete dissociation

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Speaker 1: for biological reality. So I just you see this a

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Speaker 1: lot with conspiracy theories. I think where you have this

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Speaker 1: kind of like metaphorical goal right where it's all about

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Speaker 1: getting people to dissociate from their bodies. It's like not

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Speaker 1: very clear what that looks like when an actual causal level,

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Speaker 1: but that's that's the big goal, right, um, and they

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Speaker 1: need a big goal. It's there's kind of this mysterious

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Speaker 1: part of this supposed conspiracy um that is trans rights,

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Speaker 1: which is like what is this for? Right? They lots

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Speaker 1: of people now are accepting that there's like this big

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Speaker 1: dark money pushed behind it, um, which raises a question,

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Speaker 1: why what what is this doing? Um, and the answers

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Speaker 1: are kind of cookie right, So this one has caught

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Speaker 1: on more than I would have expected. It's really weird,

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Speaker 1: so they kind of walk into it slowly, right, They

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Speaker 1: start off and it's I think there's something weird with

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Speaker 1: trans rights, and they have it's very common for them

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Speaker 1: to think that their opponents don't really believe their beliefs.

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Speaker 1: Something is up for some reason. All these people are

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Speaker 1: supporting trans reads when they know it's bad that you

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Speaker 1: need you need something to go in there to explain why.

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Speaker 1: And this is a narrative that fits with Billick's worldview.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can see how some with her background

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Speaker 1: would get here. It's kind of unusual for all these

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Speaker 1: ladies from the UK now to believe that trans people

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Speaker 1: are trans human conspiracy, but they needed something to go

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Speaker 1: there as the goal. They picked it up. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: guess I guess we should get into Mom's net a

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Speaker 1: little bit because most it's a really weird, like specifically

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Speaker 1: UK thing that I don't know if there's like there's

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Speaker 1: not really an American equivalent to it, Like I guess

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Speaker 1: it's like it's like it's like what if you took

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Speaker 1: the worst parts of Facebook ends next door I guess us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about like what Mom's

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Speaker 1: net is and how this stuff sort of sort of

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Speaker 1: seeping into it. Yeah, So this is part of this

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Speaker 1: bigger question, which is why in the UK has taken

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Speaker 1: off so much in the way it has a big

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Speaker 1: part of that story is Moms, that which is a

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Speaker 1: website for moms um to ask kind of parenting questions UM.

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Speaker 1: And it's really widely used, I think, especially amongst kind

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Speaker 1: of like white, upper middle class educated population. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people are on moms and it's kind of a

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Speaker 1: trusted website for a lot of familial type things like

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Speaker 1: advice about what to do when your kid has life,

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Speaker 1: things like that, and Moms has become just like the

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Speaker 1: main infection point I think in the gender critical movement

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Speaker 1: the UK with why it happens more generally, do you

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Speaker 1: have to look at it as kind of part of

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Speaker 1: this global resurgence and fascism around the same time it

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Speaker 1: it's like the mids on um, you know, like the

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Speaker 1: most obvious instances of that have the kind of traditional

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Speaker 1: fascist targets and ideals. UM. I think what's essential is

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Speaker 1: this kind of logic that you really see in the

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Speaker 1: gender critical movement also, which as you have this kind

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Speaker 1: of background climate of anxiety and fear, then you get

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Speaker 1: this narrative that's minorities are rising up against you. You've

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Speaker 1: lost something, your identity used to give you a special

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Speaker 1: status and now they're taking it from you and you

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Speaker 1: have to fight back. Um. And it's how they've kind

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Speaker 1: of switched out, like what the big identity is, who

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Speaker 1: the minorities are, what the special status is with this

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Speaker 1: more feminist thing, But it really does have that kind

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Speaker 1: of internal logic in the same way. Um. And I

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Speaker 1: think you just had this kind of moment globally where

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Speaker 1: you have the kind of background emotional state that was

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Speaker 1: ripe for fascism a lot of ways, and then this

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Speaker 1: aology it's just infectious in that way. And then in

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Speaker 1: Moms Night it was able to catch it really provide

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Speaker 1: right over this place where really grow into this kind

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Speaker 1: of unusual demographic group for a kind of fascist movement. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I think there's there's there's an interesting I

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Speaker 1: think there's the other interesting thing to me about it

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Speaker 1: is like I don't know, I've been thinking about this

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Speaker 1: a lot in terms of yeah, why why specifically the

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Speaker 1: UK and why the US doesn't have this? And I mean,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I mean, I guess one one

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Speaker 1: explanation for it partly is like the US is so

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Speaker 1: much more religious than the UK is, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of these people sort of would have been evangelicals in

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Speaker 1: like in the US. But but yeah, I think the

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Speaker 1: months that angles interesting to me in that it really

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Speaker 1: seems like because there's so few people publishing anything that's

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Speaker 1: even remotely tangible, like a very very small number of

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Speaker 1: actors were able to very quickly radicalize people. And I think,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, and I think it's interesting that like

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Speaker 1: like people like Jesse Son gall like I think, wind

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Speaker 1: up being much more influential in the UK than they

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Speaker 1: are in the US, even til they're getting sort of

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Speaker 1: published in these US publications, because there's sort of I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I guess there's there's this like hunger for

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Speaker 1: it on Mom's night, like for for anything that sort

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Speaker 1: of supports his worldview in a way that there's kind

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Speaker 1: of wasn't in the US. I think part of why,

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Speaker 1: like the y UK question, there's some part of it

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Speaker 1: that's just kind of by chance moms that existed was

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Speaker 1: a place where it could really take off. I think

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Speaker 1: also to some extent, like you're a litt I think

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Speaker 1: kind of part of the relevant group in the US

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Speaker 1: is like a little more inoculated against this stuff. I

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Speaker 1: mean that it doesn't really have the same initial appeal

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Speaker 1: among women who would like to construe construe themselves as

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Speaker 1: feminists because many many Americans see anti trends stuff and

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Speaker 1: immediately um connected to like the religious right. So it

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Speaker 1: doesn't you don't really get the initial way into it

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Speaker 1: where you know, you come across this thing presenting trans

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Speaker 1: people as encroaching on your space and taking something from you.

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Speaker 1: And for us, we see that and it's like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: bathroom bill laws really just had this a few years ago,

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Speaker 1: and it was this right wing religious thing. We know

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Speaker 1: what this is. The UK has kind of had a

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Speaker 1: more prominent turf activision for a little while and that

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Speaker 1: Julie Bendel's kind of long ben a thing there, um,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't really catching in the same way it

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Speaker 1: is now really caught. Yeah, I guess, I mean, what

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Speaker 1: are the other things that I was talking I had

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Speaker 1: an interesting conversation that sadly didn't wind up getting recorded.

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Speaker 1: But what was talking with some Mexican feminists like trans

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Speaker 1: feminist about this, and one of the things they were

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Speaker 1: saying was the way like talking about the way like

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Speaker 1: intersectionality is a framework and the fact that there is

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Speaker 1: there was an incredibly strong black feminist current in the

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Speaker 1: US insulated like the main line of of American feminism

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Speaker 1: from this stuff in a way that didn't really happen

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Speaker 1: in the UK because like the Black feminist movement there

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Speaker 1: is just not as strong and not as sort of mainstream,

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Speaker 1: and that has this knock on effect. I guess we're

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Speaker 1: like you get you know, without an intersectionality framework, is

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Speaker 1: it's easier to have this sort of like totalizing like

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Speaker 1: identity of like the woman as like a thing that's

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Speaker 1: just one object that you can like pin down to

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Speaker 1: biological barkers instead of having to sort of like look

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Speaker 1: at all of the different actual relations that are going on. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so my read on them is that most of them

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Speaker 1: are not really we're not pre existing feminists. Um, there

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Speaker 1: were not people who are very interested in women's rights,

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Speaker 1: And then kind of took this turn my pressures that

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Speaker 1: they're largely people who really started identifying as feminists once

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Speaker 1: that that could be a guys to kind of take

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Speaker 1: things out on trans people. Um and I think probably

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Speaker 1: why it was able to get so big on Mom's Net.

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Speaker 1: So eventually the women's rights for my Mom's Net, which

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Speaker 1: is just one of the sub boards, in addition to

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Speaker 1: all the childcare stuff, just became almost all anti trans stuff.

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Speaker 1: And so that is partially this stuff was popular. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I also I think that you know, normal mainstream

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Speaker 1: feminist stuff wasn't as popular, and they weren't getting a

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Speaker 1: lot of engagement on normal important feminist issues, um and

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Speaker 1: instead this was what their user base was really going for.

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Speaker 1: It's really striking I think how those exceptions. Um. But

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Speaker 1: in general, the big gender critical people talk very very

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Speaker 1: little about all feminist issues. This is d thing they

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Speaker 1: care about all the time. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely a

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Speaker 1: pouting what turfs where it's like yeah once once once,

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Speaker 1: you're a turf, Like this is the only thing you

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Speaker 1: care about, Like you don't you don't do Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: mean I guess like one of one of the we'll

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Speaker 1: talk more about this in the next episode, but one

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Speaker 1: of the sort of big like flagship things in like

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Speaker 1: with the UK and Ireland was like a bunch of

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Speaker 1: the Turfs getting extremely mad at the at at these end,

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Speaker 1: at the at the pro like at the pro abortion

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Speaker 1: activists in UH in Ireland because they weren't being Turfs,

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Speaker 1: and so know, the Turfs were like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna like try to sabotage this, the actual feminist

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Speaker 1: movement trying to get access to abortions because we're Turfs

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Speaker 1: and they're not. Yeah, they can be really vindictive against

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Speaker 1: women who they say are selling out women's rights by

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Speaker 1: focusing on anything other than the tiny present of the

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Speaker 1: population that is trands is v one issue you're allowed

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Speaker 1: to focus on. And if you say, like no, please

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Speaker 1: please leave us alone, we're focusing on something else, really

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Speaker 1: do not take that well. I guess the everything I

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Speaker 1: wanted to ask about was because I think that everything

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Speaker 1: that happened in the UK that only really started happening

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Speaker 1: in the US like pretty recently and even then was

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Speaker 1: kind of like it was an event in like a

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Speaker 1: way that I don't know how much it was in

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Speaker 1: the UK. Is the extent to which like people like J.

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Speaker 1: K Rowling and like the sort of the sort of

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Speaker 1: mainstream of British famous people and like the British British

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Speaker 1: journalists stuff like that, like like start started rallying around

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Speaker 1: this stuff. Yeah, this is It's been wild for me

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Speaker 1: seeing I don't think super highly of the American media,

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Speaker 1: but seeing how much worse the British media is really well,

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Speaker 1: they just have been publishing stuff things like The Times

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Speaker 1: of London have been the worst with more conservative Eletto

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Speaker 1: especially back but even you know, like The Guardian has

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Speaker 1: in some BBC since some uh, these things are just

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Speaker 1: kind of like demonstrably false coverage of transmit stuff. It

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Speaker 1: just gives a lot of credence to this transphobic movement. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of this like near blackout of in serious

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Speaker 1: consideration of what trans people are experiencing, um and what

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Speaker 1: their actual position on this stuff is. It's just really grim.

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Speaker 1: I think I think part of it is maybe that

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Speaker 1: moms that did have this reach to a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who are like professionals. They're audience is pretty professional,

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Speaker 1: and it was it's kind of trusted website where this

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Speaker 1: got normalized a lot. The last thing I wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk about before um we go to break is do

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Speaker 1: you want to talk about Kathleen Stock and that whole

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Speaker 1: thing a little bit. Yes, okay, Also we should talk about, uh,

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Speaker 1: we should connect Billick too. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah we

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Speaker 1: should we should do that first. Yeah, and so that

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Speaker 1: is there was you know Mom's that started. Um. I

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Speaker 1: think the initial narrative was kind of trans people are

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Speaker 1: being really unreasonable, they're really demanding, they're infringing on our status.

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Speaker 1: This is the thing that was more localized about this

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Speaker 1: group that it was easy to cast as unreasonable. Um,

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Speaker 1: and they were able to take kind of a victim's

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Speaker 1: stance relative to them. And then it just kind of

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Speaker 1: kept escalating, right, it just kind of fu it too,

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Speaker 1: more and more of this kind of content and then

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Speaker 1: eventually there yeah, there really was a great site is

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Speaker 1: kind of anti trans content, and it just got increasingly conspiratorial.

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Speaker 1: I think so people at this point, I think almost

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Speaker 1: everyone in the gender critical movement thinks that there's dark

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Speaker 1: money behind trans rights and they think it's like some

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Speaker 1: kind of AstroTurf movement for who knows what. Lots of

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Speaker 1: them will say the goal is like selling you know,

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Speaker 1: hormones and surgery to people. What it's funding, you know,

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Speaker 1: a global conspiracy. It's like pretty expensive and how it's

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Speaker 1: like the most plausible way to get an audience for

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Speaker 1: this kind of thing. Um. But Jennifer Billick is what

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Speaker 1: a relatively few people get doing this kind of deep

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Speaker 1: research UM. And so it's just kind of of the

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Speaker 1: kind of thing they were looking for. And they have

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Speaker 1: pretty minimal bullshit filters about what they're willing to see UM.

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Speaker 1: And this is just pretty rare that they we'll see

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Speaker 1: a source that seems to be on their side and

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Speaker 1: be like, no, there's something wrong with us. Um. And

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Speaker 1: so she increasingly got fans and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: hear her stuff secondhand. I think they're not directivating her,

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Speaker 1: but people are repeating her on so much of her

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Speaker 1: stuff now is part of the just the background of

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Speaker 1: this movement. Like there's this woman, Martin Rothblatt Um who's

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a random rich woman who was she

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Speaker 1: was involved in kind of early trans rights activism UM

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Speaker 1: and I kind of moved on and got interested in

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Speaker 1: trans humanism stuff instead. She's like kind of a stratulating

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Speaker 1: um and she is interested in trans humanism stuff and

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Speaker 1: rich um and is not the architect of the transference movement.

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Speaker 1: But now you know, they just all, I think that

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Speaker 1: this person has central role UM and when you see

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Speaker 1: them talking about her, it is Jennifer Billock's influence, and

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Speaker 1: they just don't have they're they just don't have many

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Speaker 1: defenses against kind of increasingly radicalized stuff. And when I

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Speaker 1: started kind of looking into Jennifer and I started seeing

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Speaker 1: her and get you know, when you see people talking

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Speaker 1: about a conspiracy of people like George Soros, Jennifer Prinsker Jewish,

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Speaker 1: Roth Blatt is also Jewish. Ye, there there's a red flag,

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Speaker 1: and in conspiracy spaces just kind of tends towards anti

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Speaker 1: Semitism if you're not on the lookout for and if

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Speaker 1: you're not defend against it. And Billicks not and she

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Speaker 1: has gotten increasingly into the anti Semitic side of things

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Speaker 1: UM up to the point where she was boosting Keith Woods,

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Speaker 1: who is just a Nazi. His content that was largely

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Speaker 1: inspired by her work UM about the Jews behind the

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Speaker 1: transgender movement UM and just taking kind of going from

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Speaker 1: stet of non explicit anti Semitic conspiracy theory where you

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Speaker 1: have this group of people who happened to be largely

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Speaker 1: filled with Jewish people kind of orchestrating this global conspiracy

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Speaker 1: to explicitly naming the jew and saying no, this is

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Speaker 1: a Jewish movement. Um and yeah, and she just like

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Speaker 1: followed it all the way. Um. And there was some

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Speaker 1: and I started making a big deal about this. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's some pushback from the general critical of met um

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Speaker 1: but largely and they think I'm like a bad faith

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Speaker 1: acting right, I'm the enemy. It's they're not gonna take

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Speaker 1: anything I say really seriously. Um. But also it was

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Speaker 1: really struck by how some of them were arguing with

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Speaker 1: me about this Keith Woods video that was, you know,

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Speaker 1: about how this was just a Jewish pot and why

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Speaker 1: the Jewish religion would inspire you to do something like this.

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Speaker 1: And they say, no, this is ananti Semitic there's nothing

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Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's very interesting, it's about Judaism

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Speaker 1: because they already believed all the background stuff, right, they

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Speaker 1: thought that there was in fact this conspiracy that's populated

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Speaker 1: by people who happened to be Jewish, and so then

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Speaker 1: when you take the explicit step, it's they're like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's an interesting question, right, why are all these people

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Speaker 1: Jewish interest going all the way. But it's just and yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just in general the movie is just really not

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Speaker 1: have good defenses against this kind of stuff at all.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, that's kind of conspiratorial stuff will take you

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Speaker 1: there if you don't have defenses against it. It's just

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Speaker 1: a very old road that comes in exactly that direction

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Speaker 1: and is ready for you if you start getting into

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Speaker 1: this stuff and aren't watching out for it. Yeah, all right,

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00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: so let' let's let's let's let's let's talk about Kathleen

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Speaker 1: Stock philosophies horror Child. Oh no, I mean not just Kathleen,

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Speaker 1: but you have. One of the things that is noteworthy

399
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: about the movement I think is you have these this

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Speaker 1: unusual prominence of academics, one of them being Kathleen Stock,

401
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Speaker 1: maybe the most prominent being Kathleen Stock, Um, but also

402
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Speaker 1: like Rosa Freeman and Selena's Odd and you have this

403
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Speaker 1: kind of academic face of it. And it's very interesting

404
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: I think how that works UM, and that these people

405
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: are in generally not doing kind of substantive research on

406
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: anything relayed to this UM. Instead, what I see is,

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00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: you know, stuff starts out in the community. Um, it's

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Speaker 1: like on Mom's ned, it's on Twitter, and then Kathleen

409
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: Stock picks it up, right, she is getting her stuff

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Speaker 1: kind of from mom's ned and stuff, and then just

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Speaker 1: legitimizing it. Right, It's like, oh, this is what these

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Speaker 1: fancy professors think. And then centrally their role is claiming

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Speaker 1: that there are all these serious issues, you know, on

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Speaker 1: the basis of their academic status, um, and saying that

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Speaker 1: trans people aren't willing to discuss it. You know, trans

416
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: people are shutting down debate, they're being silenced. Um. It

417
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Speaker 1: gives it this legitimacy that the movement I think really

418
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Speaker 1: capitalizes on. Yeah, which I think with Stock in particularly,

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Speaker 1: you know there part part of what's happening is like

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Speaker 1: the anti transmitment kind of like moves between different conservative

421
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: panics and so like like the modern one they're on

422
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Speaker 1: the state of the children panic. But when Stock was

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Speaker 1: sort of like getting big and you can see this

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Speaker 1: with the end of her career arc uh she'll get

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Speaker 1: to in a second, but she was big on the

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Speaker 1: whole sort of like like conservative callus canceled, like college

427
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: free speech crisis, like can't I guess, sort of cancer

428
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: culture also, but yeah, she was really big on the

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Speaker 1: on the whole, like, yeah, the conservatives are being silence

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Speaker 1: or like I don't even sort of like I think

431
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 1: she was kind of doing the like liberal centrist thing,

432
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: but but she was. Yeah, she she was doing all

433
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,719
Speaker 1: these censorship claims and then turning around and just actually

434
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: censor people. And it was yeah, yeah, I gave a

435
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: talk at Sussex Cathlete University that I believe she tried

436
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: to have canceled. Come on. It was just kind of

437
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: interesting because I initially this talk was kind of scheduled

438
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: as a protest at the same time as one of

439
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: her as a talk she was going to give on

440
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: a related topic, um, And then she canceled her talk.

441
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: So I thought she might come to mind, right, like

442
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 1: free to bay, like ask me questions, and I was like, okay,

443
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: but of course she didn't, right. Instead, I tried to

444
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: just get it shut down. But I think this is yeah,

445
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: it's one kind of the cancel culture thing is kind

446
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: of one element, but I think it's really central and

447
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: a lot of their stuff, um, and that the kind

448
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: of in the background of other stuff is like, you know,

449
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: somehow the consensus has been controlled, and like it's the

450
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: result of like the truth not being heard and people

451
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: not considering all these important things that they need to

452
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: consider kind of from care for trans youth too, you know,

453
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: trans woman being able to the bathroom kind of across

454
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: all this, they're running this narrative that the truth has

455
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: been silenced and you know, trance people are being unreasonable

456
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: and have shut it down. I think that is a

457
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: pretty foundational and the other overall narrative they've built. Yeah,

458
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: and it you see this as like, this is one

459
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: of the ways they try to I guess, rest the

460
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: batchel of authority back from literally every actual medical group

461
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: who all agree that you should actually let kids transition

462
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: and you should let adults transition, and that this is

463
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: in fact good and like a thing that medically is

464
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: is like and then like I said, yeah, I mean

465
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: this isn't this is a huge deal. But so, like

466
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: Catholt Sock is a philosopher, right, and so she started

467
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: off her first thing was like, so thing is a

468
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: fund in academic philosophy. Academic philosophers aren't debating whether trans

469
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: women or women in the way that they should. This

470
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: idea that the debates being silenced in philosophy, you know,

471
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: like doesn't have really important consequences. I think the idea

472
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: that like all of mainstream research on trans healthcare and

473
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: like what is in the good and the best interests

474
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: of trans kids. Being able to diligitimize that is really serious, right,

475
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: that it just has these tremendous consequences. I think they've

476
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: been able to be pretty effective on that too. Yeah,

477
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: and that's been really scary in a lot of ways

478
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: because you see like the arguments of these people pioneered

479
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: and the sort of the techniques and the groups that

480
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: they're part of like wind up being core parts of

481
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: the anti trans push in both the UK and the US.

482
00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: And yeah, that's extremely scary. It's really scary, right, I mean,

483
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: it's just it's just awful, Like these are their children

484
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 1: and for them to become the focus of this kind

485
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: of hate movement is just horrifying. And it's just often

486
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: the you know, the history of healthcare for general conforming

487
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: kids is really grim, and it's like they are just

488
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: pushing to kind of go back there and it's just ghastly.

489
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: It's really horrifying to see. Yeah, I guess I think

490
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: that's a that's a good point. We can Okay, this

491
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: is probly should probably be the second ad break, but yeah,

492
00:31:49,120 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: do you know what else's horrifying ads and we're back. Um.

493
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: What one of the scariest parts I think of what

494
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: was happening in the UK was the extent to which

495
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: I mean not just mainstream British media gets involved in this,

496
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: but I mean literally the BBC, which is which is

497
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: the you know this, this is this is the state

498
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: media organization right starts to just push unbelievably transphobic articles

499
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: out as just regular contents. Um. I think I think

500
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: the probably the most famous one is Yeah, in in October,

501
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: BBC publishes this article that's called We're being pressured into

502
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: sex by some trans women. That is just an just

503
00:32:54,160 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: just an absolutely appalling display of transfer be a. Um, yeah,

504
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about that? And so

505
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: the this article was framed around the question is a

506
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex

507
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being

508
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners. Um.

509
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: And so the the over arching perspective in the piece

510
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: that you get is that this is a significant problem

511
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: among lesbians. They're experiencing sexual pressure from trans women. Um.

512
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: The reporting strategy that the reporter used was you know,

513
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: just soliciting this one kind of particular narrative from lesbians

514
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: who said that they had had these kind of experiences

515
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: with trans women. Um. The people who are quoted in

516
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: the article who aren't anonymous are gender critical people, right,

517
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: They're like Rose of Don Debbie Hayden. And then there's

518
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: these anonymous women who we don't know who they are. Um,

519
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: but it's not they didn't go and approach you know,

520
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: normal mainstream let's be an activists or lesbian organizations to

521
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: see what they were experiencing the community. Right, there's kind

522
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: of no perspective just from any kind of mainstream lesbian

523
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: or at all. That that was one of the things

524
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 1: that like sort of haunting about this, Like this journalist

525
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: is working on this for age, like I think it

526
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: was like and like like she was specifically trying to

527
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: find this people, these people like people who like had

528
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: to experienced a specific thing and like no normal but

529
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,919
Speaker 1: she couldn't find normal people because it's not a thing.

530
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: And so she she after like many many years, she

531
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: was able to find like a couple of examples, like

532
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: a few examples and mostly from yeah, just open transpops.

533
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: And the article is just like so conceptually sloppy that

534
00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: it doesn't distinguish, you know, theoretical discourse about whether you know,

535
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: it's transphobic to just say out of hand you never

536
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: date a trans woman. It doesn't distinguish this from sexual abuse.

537
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: It just kind of takes for granted that they're just

538
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: saying in kind of an abstract theoretical context. Um, that's

539
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: some's like just saying that you won't ever sleep with

540
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: a trans woman. Saying that that is transphobic, is itself

541
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: treated as akin to pressuring someone into sex, right like that, Yeah,

542
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 1: journalism that doesn't distinguish between just a conversation about sexual

543
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: issues and sexual abuse is just disastrous. There's just something

544
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: serious about this piece, and it's just kind of throughout

545
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: it it's just yeah, like like one of your things

546
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: about this is so they found like a survey, right,

547
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: the journalists went looking for a survey about like like

548
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: what percentage of lesbians have like encountered this encountered this pressure,

549
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: and the only thing they could find was, well, okay,

550
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: the only thing they could find that would like support

551
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: their actual claim was this this pole from this group

552
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: called Get Out the l which is just like a

553
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 1: group that whose entire purpose is just being anti trans

554
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: people and trying to get rid of them. Yeah, and

555
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: it was just it was just like it was it

556
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: was like a Twitter poll, right, it was like they're

557
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 1: they're they're publishing as as statistical evidence for their claim

558
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: a Twitter poll from a from a turf group and

559
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: trying to like claim this is serious journalism, and it's

560
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: just yeah, I mean so literally, on the page of

561
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: the statistics they cite in this report, the report approvingly

562
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: cites Janice Raymond saying about all trans sexuals rape women's

563
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact.

564
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 1: And so like, are we talking about metaphors here? Are

565
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: we talking about sexual abuse? It's just sick. And so

566
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: one of the people who was in a you in

567
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: this um was Lily Cade, who was an adult performer,

568
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: and again throughout this just a trans woman saying that

569
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: the way someone is treating her in a sexual context

570
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: is transphobic, is itself treated as sexually abusive? Um, So,

571
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: Lily Cade, you know, she refused to I think initially

572
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 1: she refused to be in a scene with a trans woman.

573
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: The later on also refused to um shoot a trans

574
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: woman at all Um when she was working as a

575
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: producer Um. So they kind of get a quote from Lily,

576
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: you know, saying something about women being pressured into sex

577
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: by trans women. And it turns out that Lily Cade

578
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: was pushed out of the adult industry because she's like

579
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: a serial rapist, right, So this is there source on

580
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: whether is this problem for assist woman is herself as

581
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 1: this woman who is a serial rapist, right, And they're

582
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: using this person to portray trans woman as the victimizers

583
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: and it's just so grim. Yeah, just much. It is

584
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: just like haunting. Like one of the other things that

585
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 1: came out was like part of the stories that they

586
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: said that like no prominent trans women would speak with

587
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: them for the story, and then a prominent trans woman

588
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: was like, no, you guys interviewed me and then didn't

589
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 1: include it in the article. Yeah. So this was one

590
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 1: of the people who really Kate had had a conflict

591
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: with was Chelsea Powe Um, another woman and portant who

592
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: had asked if Lily Um she could work really his

593
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: company and Lily said no because she was trans. So

594
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: they talked Chelsea was is a reasonably prominent person Um,

595
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: and they interviewed her didn't include her in the article.

596
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: She says that she told them that Lily had this

597
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: predatory past. They also didn't say anything about that. And

598
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: so we have the situation where we have this person

599
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: who is this this woman who the author has been

600
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: told is a serial sexual predator being presented as kind

601
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:27,959
Speaker 1: of an authority on women's sexual victimization, supposedly by trans woman.

602
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: She is the victimized, and not only is she a

603
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: serial sexual predator, but she's like specifically attacked people in bathrooms.

604
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: But she's like the famous fearmongering transphobic thing is that

605
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 1: trans people are going to attack you in the bathrooms.

606
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: Your sources attacks people in bathrooms, and there's just very

607
00:39:55,719 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: little interest like how women are actually victimized and by who. Yeah,

608
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 1: and I think like that that's amused to disturbing party here.

609
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: It's like, this isn't just like a negligency of reporting

610
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: thing here. This is just malice. Like if if you

611
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: are told and the thing, it's like it's not it's

612
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 1: not like it was hard to like find out that

613
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: that you know, it's okay, So someone someone tells you

614
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: that someone else is an abusive, right, it's like okay,

615
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: Like maybe you're a journalist, maybe you're going to be like, oh,

616
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: I should check this out. Like Lily Cage assaulted so

617
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: many people and like rape so many people that like,

618
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: just scrolling through Twitter, I found multiple people who have

619
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: been abused by her, Like this was this was not

620
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: something that was like like she she'd admitted it in public.

621
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:41,879
Speaker 1: This is not something that was like hard to find, right,

622
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: And and I just want to underline that, which is

623
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: that Willy Kay, after these accusations really got going, she

624
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: did like publicly and she did not deny, and then

625
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: she retired from porn. Yeah, and and and you know,

626
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: and this is something like the BBC does this. They

627
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: do this weird backtracking at this article comes out, everyone

628
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: gets exurely mad at them. But they they refused to

629
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: release the like the tape of the interview they had

630
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: to with Chelsea Poe, which you know, would have proved

631
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,479
Speaker 1: that Chelsea Poe did in fact tell them that Lily

632
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: k was a rapist, and they published the story anyways,

633
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: and there's there's so much of this stuff was like yeah,

634
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: like the they the way they backtrack about it, the

635
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: way that also like so the two places where this

636
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: thing the story Ran was the BBC in Britain, and

637
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: they syndicated it out to Brazil and a few of

638
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: the places that were like that are incredibly transphobic, and

639
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,760
Speaker 1: it ran like and this so just like right in Brazil,

640
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: like ran as a bunch of mainstream news headlines like

641
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 1: where like news stories and in the major newspapers like

642
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: ran this, and it was I don't know, like there

643
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: there's there's there's this extent to which, yeah, like you're

644
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 1: watching British state media decide that they actively just want

645
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 1: to go to war on trans people and they literally

646
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: just do not care that like they are, you know,

647
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: publishing little rapists. And then yeah, I just just the

648
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: BBC's policy, you know is when we interview those responsible

649
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 1: for ani social behavioral crime, it may cause distress to victims,

650
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: and we should contact victims and advise them of our plans,

651
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,959
Speaker 1: you know what, are viewing criminals. Care must be taken

652
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 1: to minimize potential of stress this may cause to victims

653
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: of the crime. They they didn't see Lily as this

654
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 1: is applying to her, right, This is uh, this woman

655
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: who they have been told is a sexual predator. You

656
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: can find this information. I found it pretty quickly all

657
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: of these victims talking about it, her acknowledging it, and

658
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: they didn't identify this this woman as a predator with

659
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: victims who would be like very plausibly upset by seeing

660
00:42:54,480 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: their rapists treated as an authority sexual abuse, right, And

661
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,439
Speaker 1: this is kind of pervasive, I think in the gender

662
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: critical movement right where if any of you are out there,

663
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure you're thinking, women can't be rapists. Rape requires

664
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: a penis, which is in the UK, it's kind of

665
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: a you know, most femin is considered this a pretty

666
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: reactionary way to define righte where it has to be

667
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: um penetration with a penis, and this isn't reflective of

668
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, how women experience sexual assault that it's just

669
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 1: kind of totally other category UM. And most countries feminism

670
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: consider it quite important that you don't kind of treat

671
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 1: this as this like categorically different offense um. But the

672
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 1: gender critical really pushes this perspective where it is literally

673
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 1: impossible for women too to commit ray, you know. And

674
00:43:55,080 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 1: this is they think that when they a brief period

675
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: where they thought that they had identified like that every

676
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: rape that was recorded as committed by a woman was

677
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: trans woman because they thought that it required ipdes and

678
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: they thought that that was the only way that's possible,

679
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: and so you can actually be convicted of it if

680
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: you were aiding and abetting. I think they thought that

681
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: they had all of these and they just have this

682
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: overall perspective where it is literally impossible for you know,

683
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: they say a woman meaning the assist woman to commit

684
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 1: a sexual offense, and in doing this they create cover

685
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: for sis woman predators. Like it creates this context where

686
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: that their victimization just disappears. People can't even acknowledge it.

687
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: And yeah, and like I think like the the extent

688
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 1: to which this whole movement is built on violence, and

689
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: it is built any and there are so many people

690
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: that that the general to go people work with your abusers.

691
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: There are you know, and I don't know, like I

692
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: want to come back to like the last piece of

693
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: the Lily Kid thing, which is that after this article

694
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: came out, the BBC initially basically didn't do anything right

695
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: even after the rape out. Yes, yeah, and then Lily

696
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: K published one of like one of the most transphobic

697
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: things I've ever encountered in my life, like a a

698
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: just this it gets called a manifesto, Like I don't

699
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: think like a manifesto. It was terrified. Yeah, like she

700
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: she's she she's explicitly like like like name specific trans

701
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 1: women that she wants lynched. Like there's a bunch of

702
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 1: stuff about the people she wants raped. She wants like

703
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: she wants all trans people to die. Uh, there's a

704
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of there's like weirdly racist stuff. There's

705
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: like I mean, it's it's it's just it's it's it's

706
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: it is a document that calls for genocide. And the

707
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: part where it's calling for genocide probably isn't, like line

708
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: for line, the most disturbing part of it, because the

709
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: individual threats are like so graphic. And I was terrified

710
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: when I mentioned I was the person who, you know,

711
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: initially dug up the sexual abuse allegations. And when I

712
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 1: did it, I knew it would kind of it would

713
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: throw a match into her life. I thought that they

714
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: hadn't you know, they were there, they were visible, you

715
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: could find them. But when it had happened, she had

716
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: not really been in the mainstream. I and so I know,

717
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: if it's got an uptake, it would make it bigger.

718
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: And what had and I said, and then you know,

719
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: this woman is posting this terrifying manifest It read like, yeah,

720
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: she shooting someone. Now. It was just so it was

721
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: just terrified. It was like something to be written, you know,

722
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: immediately before someone goes to shoot someone. It was until

723
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: she's tweeting it and tagging the BBC in it. Yeah,

724
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: and like that that finally, like one of the most

725
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: disturbing things I've ever read in my life. Like that

726
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 1: was finally the thing with the BBC was like, uh,

727
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: maybe we should do something about this. It was just

728
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:24,399
Speaker 1: so so little, right, this is they took her out

729
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: of the article. Um, they added an update and says,

730
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: we have updated this article published last week to remove

731
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: a contribution from one individual in light of comments she

732
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 1: has published on a blog post in recent days which

733
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: we have been able to verify. We acknowledge that an

734
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: admission of inappropriate behavior by the same contributor should have

735
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: been included in the original article. So this is yeah,

736
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: there's kind of erased her. Right, So they didn't acknowledge

737
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 1: that they had included this person in the article who

738
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: just published this genocidal ran. Right, So one of their

739
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: sources is the person who is advocating for killing trans people.

740
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 1: That is important, right, That is pretty to this narrative

741
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: they're pushing. And they also are not saying, you know,

742
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 1: they should have we acknowledged that an admission of inappropriate

743
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: behavior should have been included in the original article. It

744
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: really changes the overall narrative of the article. Right, if

745
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 1: you acknowledge this sis woman is a serial pro Right,

746
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: the overall picture is like six women are at risk

747
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: from trans women and it's a reality check, right to hear. No,

748
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 1: in fact, this woman who were presenting as like victimized

749
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 1: is one of the women who's preying on people, and

750
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: she's not a trans woman. And it's just they just,

751
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: you know, even after this responded in a way that

752
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: protected the narrative of the piece, right, they were they

753
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: weren't going to let in anything that acknowledge this. The

754
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: people they're finding with this position are transphobic. This person

755
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 1: was very red and that it just says, you've removed

756
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: the contribution in light of comments she has published. What

757
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 1: kind of what do they about? It's serious, right, it's

758
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 1: seriously not acknowledge that one of their sources is a

759
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: violent transfer. Yeah, this is how I found out that

760
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: she was alive, also them saying that they had been

761
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: able to verify it before that, I had been like,

762
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,399
Speaker 1: she's not very online in a lot of cases. Um,

763
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: so I was really where I didn't know how long

764
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: it was going to be before you know, there's confirmation

765
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: that like in fact that like Kate had not just

766
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: shot someone and herself. Yeah, this was it was just

767
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 1: really it's manifest. It was terrified. I don't know, it's

768
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: just awful. Yeah, And I think you know, one of

769
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: the things that that's happening here is you get to

770
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: see there's a couple of like there's a couple there's

771
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: like layers at which this stuff operates. So you have

772
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: you know, you have your BBC running diligitimization, right, but

773
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 1: then you have the stuff beneath it, which is just

774
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: apritly genocidal. And I think, you know, and sometimes like

775
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: with the Lily caide, like if you're going to be

776
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: a turf lily kid kind of blew it right because

777
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: like you can't like okay, like that. You can be

778
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: really really transphobic in a lot of in a lot

779
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: of ways, but like you know, actively calling people to

780
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: get lynched is a thing that like even like transphobs

781
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:53,439
Speaker 1: are are normally like wait what why are you? Yeah? Yeah,

782
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: but but I don't think like that. The mainstream church

783
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 1: movement is not in a place where you conduced off

784
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 1: like that. But in some ways I think, you know,

785
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: the stuff that's more moderate is more dangerous. The last

786
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: thing I want to talk about is a document called

787
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: the Decoration on Women's Sex Based Rights, which was was

788
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: put together by a bunch of URF activists, fairly prominently

789
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: featuring arch Australian turf Sheila Jeffreys. But yeah, can you

790
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: can you talk a bit about like what this is?

791
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: And yeah, so this is a document that basically all

792
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 1: of the gender critical organizations and that you people have signed.

793
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 1: I mean, it is extreme, right. It calls for trans

794
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 1: women to be banned from all women's spaces, including toilets,

795
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: which you know, if if we can't go to the bathroom,

796
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: they can't participate in society. Right. It's just like a

797
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: basic need people to have to exist in public um.

798
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,080
Speaker 1: And that it bands all it has to be at

799
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: all internationally recommended healthcare for trans children. UM. It has

800
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: to legally protect deliberate mis gender ing, um, which would

801
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: you know allow you to be just treated with such

802
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 1: hostility at work, just in public. This is a just

803
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: kind of a threat assault on trans people's ability to

804
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: exist with dignity and society, just live normal lives. And

805
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: you know a lot of general critical people will say

806
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 1: will portray themselves, you know as only opposing advances for

807
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: trends rights, you know, as not wanting trends rights to

808
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: be rolled back. But with this document calls for is

809
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: like basically every right trans people have to exist in

810
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 1: their genders, in particular trans women and especially turgis trans women,

811
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: um to just take it all back right and leave

812
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 1: them with basically nothing. Yeah, yeah, like like they have

813
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 1: this whole thing but like basically like they want to

814
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: erase the concept of gender identity from law, which is

815
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 1: like the thing that does is it eliminates all trans

816
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 1: people from like, it eliminates trans people as a thing

817
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: that the law recognizes exists and things should have protections.

818
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 1: It's like it's it's it is, you know, like it

819
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: is the legal genocide of trans people like that that's

820
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 1: that's that's what it is. It's yeah, so they've basically

821
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: all signed this, you know, it is a yeah, it's

822
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 1: this is not at all. Uh. French document positions itself

823
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: as like, you know, the demands kind of of this

824
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: movement and it's extreme. Um. The organization's spokeswoman is Karadinsky UM,

825
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: who uses almost all of her public appearances. She has

826
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: a number of times been on Tucker Carl said, Um,

827
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: she boost Jennifer Billick all the time. She I think

828
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 1: it's her biggest supporter. UM and was formerly the chair

829
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 1: of Wolf, which is Lear Keith's organization. UM. So she

830
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: is front is what stands for it is a cool

831
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 1: name for an organ that sucks, and they should get

832
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: it back to someone better. Yeah. So this is I

833
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 1: mean general you see the American turfs kind of in

834
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: this more radical direction. UM also especially explicitly collaborating with

835
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: the right. UM. And here they've made this document that

836
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: just purports to and everyone has signs kind of purples

837
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:56,720
Speaker 1: direct the overall agenda to one that just leaves trance

838
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: people with just no protections at all. Yeah. And I

839
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,879
Speaker 1: think I think it's you know, the reason I think

840
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 1: this is in a lot of ways like what ads

841
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: silarly cave things. Again, it's in this like it's not

842
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 1: actually in legal ees because none of these people are lawyers,

843
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: and oh, Solay said, how how did an actual law

844
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, I shouldn't be asking how did an

845
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: actual lawyer produce this because I've met lawyers and they're

846
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,839
Speaker 1: they're not they are not as smart and above board

847
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: as they protect yourself to people. Yeah, like this stuff

848
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 1: isn't making legal arguments. Like one of one of the

849
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 1: things that they they've like I guess the whole sort

850
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: of gender critical like church movements invented is like this

851
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 1: this concept of sex based rights, which is not a

852
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: thing like yeah, like like like they all think that

853
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: there's like rights that you have because of your sex,

854
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 1: and no, this doesn't exist. They completely made this up.

855
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 1: They keep on like referring to it as if it's

856
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: like a concept that exists in the law. Like none

857
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: of this stuff like in terms of legally is it's

858
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,359
Speaker 1: like it's not thing. It's it's it's, it's, it's, it's

859
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 1: it's a jumble of words. Yeah, I know. You really

860
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 1: see as the movements go, they really have really robust

861
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 1: movement discipline and kind of taking up these terms and

862
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 1: then saying them all the time as though it's a

863
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 1: thing everyone's familiar with. One of them is always like

864
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 1: women's sex based rights, women's sex based rights, like what

865
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: people's rights are based on their sex. This is kind

866
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: of like a whole thing we're doing with fetism. You know.

867
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 1: It was like, you don't have special rights based on

868
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 1: being a man, And it turns out that like supposedly

869
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: a law we've thought that you have special rights for

870
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: if you're a woman, to exclude whoever you want to exclude.

871
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 1: I guess it's yeah, it's just goofy. Yeah, but but

872
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: I think, like it's weird, but it's like it's also

873
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: it has this function, which is that the sort of

874
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,879
Speaker 1: like and like okay, so like I don't My guess

875
00:56:57,960 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: is that most of the people who have signed this

876
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: document have not read it because you know. But but

877
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, like I think the thing that it does

878
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,919
Speaker 1: is it gives them this this legitimization. It gives their

879
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: goal of exterminating trans people this sort of legal jargon apparatus.

880
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: They can hide behind it like, oh, it's actually from

881
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: the u N and we're basing it on international law

882
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: and that. And the organization used to have this fancy name,

883
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 1: which was the Women Human Rights Campaign UM and they

884
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 1: have now dropped that, possibly for legal reasons, but it

885
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 1: sounds good, right. The websites polished and it seems like

886
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 1: feel thing. And the they really try to take this

887
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: phrase to and using it just kind of sneak everything.

888
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 1: And so they'll ask people questions like, well, what about

889
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: women's sex based rights? These are the thing I've never

890
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: heard about before in my life, and but people just

891
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 1: get on board and I don't really know what's happening.

892
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 1: And they've Another thing they do is they always portray

893
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: like bathrooms as sex segregated spaces, and every bathroom I've

894
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: ever been and since women on the door and it

895
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 1: seemed like female bathroom. But they're like, this is like

896
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: sentence is based on sex, not gender. Just making these

897
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 1: assertions and they have a lot of assertions. Yeah, yeah,

898
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 1: I think I think that's a good place to wrap up.

899
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 1: I guess they have a lot of assertions. Yeah, I

900
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: guess they've just underwriting again, what a serious kind of

901
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 1: attack on trans people's right. So this is right, and

902
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: this is calling for things that would make it very

903
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 1: hard for trans people to exist. And it's really scared

904
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 1: watch that. I think I watch it kind of progress

905
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 1: across this movement and be boosted. It's awful. Yeah, And

906
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 1: next episode we are going to take a much deeper

907
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 1: dive into some of the people who signed this document,

908
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 1: and we are going to see what happens when this

909
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 1: kind of bloodless but genocidal, legalistic rhetoric makes it into

910
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: the hands of people who are not afraid to do

911
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: physical violence. And it is worse. It is going to

912
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 1: go worse than you're probably imagining. Just to underline said

913
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: earlier that Jennifer Billicks stuff is, you know, just widely

914
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 1: now accepted within this movement, and her stuff is portraying

915
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: trans people and trans writs as existential immediate threat. Right,

916
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 1: she portrays she often says that doctors are like butchering children, right,

917
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 1: is there making children too slaves? It's stuff that, if

918
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 1: it was true, would call for kind of an extreme

919
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 1: level of resistance. And that's kind of what this stuff

920
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 1: functions to do. Right. If you are accusing people of

921
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 1: these really extreme offenses and of hurting and threatening all

922
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 1: of these people, what that motivates is extreme responses and

923
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 1: volive responses. And Billy herself is sometimes engaged in violent rhetoric,

924
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: but I think many of us who have been following

925
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: this movement are just kind of waiting afraid because that's

926
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 1: just where it looks like it's going in the US

927
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: and the UK too, kind of like hard to it's

928
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 1: just so scary, right and like you know, they're mapping

929
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: out where the gender clinics are and it's it's scary

930
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 1: because where rhetoric like this goes is to a violent

931
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 1: place and it's hard to see it letting up right now. Yeah,

932
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 1: and yeah, that is that is the subject of tomorrow's episode,

933
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 1: which yeah, in which a bunch of people will start

934
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: attacking gender clinics and a bunch of trans people are

935
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 1: going to get violently assaulted by turfs who are directly

936
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: affiliated with Sheila Jeffreys and our followers of Jennifer Billi

937
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 1: So Greg, Yeah, Krista, thank thank you for coming on

938
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: and doing this. Yeah, yeah, this has been It could

939
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 1: happen here. Uh you can find us at happened here

940
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 1: pot on Twitter and Instagram. We are also there is

941
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 1: other stuff that we do at the Cool Zone and yeah,

942
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,439
Speaker 1: go go fight for the rights of trans people before

943
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 1: they ceased to exist. It could Happen here is a

944
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool

945
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 1: zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com,

946
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:55,440
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

947
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

948
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 1: find sources for It could app in here, updated monthly

949
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.