WEBVTT - When My Daughter Became My Son 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:09.280 They welcomed doing, they accepted him, and I think they 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:16.119 treated him better than when he was a girl. So 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:21.440 welcome back. All right here we are Azzy Confidential, and 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:26.400 uh we've got something special happening right now. Uh, not 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:29.240 too long ago, several months, a year doesn't make a difference. 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.760 It doesn't for you, o c s out there. It can't, 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.920 It can't possibly. But I got a letter. The letter 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:38.320 was from a woman who also happened to be a mother, 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:41.760 and it was an impassioned letter about her life and 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:45.640 her relationship with her son. So in the first for 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:49.400 Ozzy Confidential, we're gonna have the mother and the son 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:53.920 in the studio duel duel at the same time, uh, 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:59.840 and talking about a special kind of relationship forthwith ladies 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:11.240 and gentlemen. Karen and Dylan Barnes. Now, Karen came to me, 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:16.360 an editor, you know that this angry, disheveled that all 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.880 the all the common things you hear about editors are true. 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:22.560 She came up, I want to talk about my relationship 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:25.040 with my son. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:27.840 don't really what what was special about it? If they're 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:29.679 gonna make a movie about it, what's what's the special, 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.160 what's the what's the what's the artful device that makes 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.800 you your story worth telling? She as well, my son 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:42.080 Dylan used to be my daughter, Erica sold thank you 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.160 for taking the time to show up. This is very cool. 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:51.240 I know you guys are jet setters. Yeah, but we 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.880 covered a little bit before we started talking. Um. You 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:58.080 talked about how you got the piece to us, But 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:02.680 what was the Was there an origin story connected to 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:08.639 creating the piece? Yes. After Dylan started going through transition, 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:10.520 I didn't get a chance to talk to some of 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:13.760 our family members, and I felt like they might not 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:17.360 treat Dylan the way that I wanted him treated to 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:23.480 be loved and accepted. Where's his family now here in California? 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:26.600 And uh So I wrote them a letter and just said, 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:32.600 you know here, here's from my heart where I'm coming from. Um, 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:38.239 And the response I got from them was amazing. They 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:42.720 welcomed Dylan, they accepted him, and I think they treated 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.720 him better than ever before. In my mind, they were 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:50.360 more accepting than ever before when he when he was 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:54.760 a girl. So, UM, I thought, I've got something here. 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.960 I want to make a difference for other people. So 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:00.120 you you had actually written a letter to them and 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.240 sent it before it had gotten to me, oh a 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:07.120 year before or maybe nine months before. So their reaction 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:12.240 is actually what emboldened YouTube. Absolutely, and one and one 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:16.200 other thing. Um, I had the opportunity to meet one 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:20.200 of Dylan's friends who's a trans woman, and she was 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.080 telling her story to me about how she didn't have 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:27.000 family acceptance and that her mother didn't accept her as 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.160 a woman, and it was very very It made it 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.440 very very big impact on me, and I felt very 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.119 sad and I wanted to make a difference with other 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:39.880 parents and families. So did you did you tell Dylan 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:41.400 that you're going to write the piece before you start 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.360 working on the piece? No? In fact, I kept it 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:49.000 a secret from him. But then after I saw the 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.160 because I wasn't planning on doing anything with it after 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.920 that one effort that I'm sending it to the after 0:03:55.040 --> 0:04:00.560 send it sending it to my nephews. So I, um so, then, 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:05.240 I are your nephews are the same age as you are? Okay, 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:10.000 almost exact? Okay, so these are people you grew up with. Yeah, okay, 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.240 all right, So I um so I thought, you know, 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:15.360 like I told you, I think I have something here. 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.520 So Dylan was visiting with me, and I said, Dylan, 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.240 I have this thing I've written, and I want you 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:26.240 to look at it because um I wanna distribute it 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:29.960 and I want your permission to distribute it. And so 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:33.080 he looked at it, and he asked me for a 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.760 red pen, and he took my red pen and he 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.320 started marking it. And I didn't know what he was doing, 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:43.039 and I said, what's wrong? He said, your grammar is terrible. 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:49.039 You need to get an editor. Was okay, that's all 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.599 you like to say. So did you did you have 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:54.760 any feelings in trepidation at all? She said, I'm going 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:58.359 to tell our story as it's connected to you, to 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.039 the world, or was it just like cool? I think 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:05.240 I had some feeling of trepidation just because it revealed 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:09.560 a lot of personal things. But then I realized that 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.280 I'm not embarrassed about them and that I could help 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:19.040 other people. So yeah, and the trepidation went away. But 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.200 I have transference, and it seems to me that commented 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:27.760 their experiences them knowing way before everybody else knew. Gosh, yeah, okay, 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.320 I mean so I knew when I was like five, 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.640 but I didn't know what it was like, I knew 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:37.200 that I was a boy, I knew that I was 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:39.480 a man, but well, I was a boy at the time, 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:45.000 but I didn't know that that was called transgender anything 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:49.080 like that. And then, you know, after a time of 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:53.560 kind of society denying that in me, I learned to 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.960 deny it in myself. It was like society, you mean 0:05:57.000 --> 0:06:04.279 the people around you as a five year old, so family, exactly, friends, Yeah, school, 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:08.200 when I was in kindergarten probably, and you know, I 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.359 would go to the hair salon and be like, I 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:16.360 want this boy's haircut, and I would wear boxers underneath 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:20.919 my pants, and you know, family members would say like 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.280 what are you wearing or why are you wearing that? 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:25.760 And it would be funny, like people would make fun 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.520 of me for doing what I felt was naturally me. 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.640 And so for me, that's where the denial came in, 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:33.919 because it was like, oh, this is funny, this isn't 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:39.200 serious what I'm doing as a joke. And yeah, and 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:41.720 I remember asking my dad at a young age, like 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:44.800 how do people get sex changes? I didn't even know 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:48.520 how I knew what that was, and I remember him 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:53.159 explaining it to me. And and that's it. I don't 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.760 remember being like that's a possibility for me. I just 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.359 remember him telling me kind of what it was, and 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.279 that's it. How did you how did you process? I 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.080 guess maybe I should take a step back and ask 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.640 was the making fun of Did you perceive it to 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:11.800 be mean spirited or was it casual like that's a 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:16.920 funny outfit, or was it mean spirited? I perceived it 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:20.640 as being mean spirited most of the time. Um. Like, 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.160 when I was in kindergarten to second grade, I was bullied, 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:28.440 and I think it had to do with me looking different. Um, 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:31.720 but you know, lots of people are bullied for different reasons. Um, 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.240 But I was really bullied. And in second grade they 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.040 made a joke about putting a bomb in my house 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.280 and then things got really serious. Yeah, and things got 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.840 really serious, and I remember going to the principle's office 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:46.840 and having like a lot of anxiety as a kid 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.200 at that time. And then I remember, you know, I 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:53.440 switched schools because my sister was going to a like 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:56.880 a cooler school and I wanted to be there. It 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:01.360 was like a hippie school, and I remember going there 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.760 and still being kind of boyish, and then you know, 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.440 fourth grade came along, and I was like, I gotta 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:10.520 conform now or something, and I started dressing about nine 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:14.600 in fourth grade. Yeah, and then then I started dressing 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:16.360 more like a girl. I don't know. I think it 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:19.720 was like puberty was approaching, and I felt like, you know, 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.640 I didn't want to I didn't want to miss out, 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.440 you know, like I I felt so other for so 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.000 long that I was like, Okay, I'll conform now so 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:32.880 that I can like fit in. So, yeah, because I 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:35.560 went through a period when I was growing up, I'd 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:37.680 see a movie and I would have to dress like 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:39.880 the character from the movie, right, which is okay if 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.839 you're seeing like sound of Music. But when I was 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.800 like ten or Levin, so I'd come into re expensive 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.880 private school, dress like super Fly, which at the time 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.760 in a maxiquot platform shoes, a cane I had with 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.440 a feather. My very middle class mother said, you're not 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:58.600 leaving a house like that, you know. I okay. So 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:00.840 I show up at school and I was vaguely aware 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.400 of people making fun of me or being amused, but 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:05.760 I just didn't care because I knew I looked just 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:07.680 like the guy from the movie, and in mine that 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:12.600 was it so outside of and identification and external external 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:18.400 identification through clothes, what was happening inside your head? Like 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:19.920 you're like, Okay, I'm getting a lot of grief or 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.559 just wanting to wear what I wear. But was there 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:24.600 other stuff happening in your head that was like kind 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:28.360 of that felt to you like I know something that 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.440 they don't know. It's not just a stud I'm wearing 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:32.640 shorts of sneakers and I'm a tomboy and that kind 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.079 of stuff. Hey, anybody can see that, but it was 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:42.319 there stuff happening inside your head that other people didn't know. Thoughts, feelings, ideas. Definitely. 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:46.360 I think I think after that whole bullying thing and 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:50.040 the bomb thing, it really got to my head and 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:52.600 it made me go into a denial of just like 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.600 I can't be this way because it's dangerous, like it's 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.160 and and the kids were joking and they were young, 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.880 and like, you know, they weren't going to bomb my house. 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.679 But I think I took it like really seriously at 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.560 that age and just kind of internalized that as like 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:12.160 this is not okay, and like in order to keep 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.080 myself and my family safe, I need to be a 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.400 certain way. And I need said we're gonna bomb your 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.760 house because you look like a boy. I don't know 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:23.480 if they said because you look like a boy. But 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.120 for two years they bullied me, and they you know, 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:28.240 I had this best friend who was a girl, and 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.160 they would just make up things about me, like he's 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.840 picking his nose now, or like you know, just and 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.760 like laugh and I just always had this audience of 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:39.800 people who were laughing at me. That's how I felt. 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:45.720 So I felt like paranoid. Yeah, And so I felt 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.520 like paranoid that if I was who I really was, 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:50.760 that there would be like a group of people laughing 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.920 at me. Now we you, I mean, were you aware 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:57.600 of this? I mean, I'm a parent as well, so 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.000 I know what happens to my kids. School a very 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.880 frequently the last to know. But you're you're there, holiday dinners, 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:07.320 you're day day. I knew nothing that that he was 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.960 getting bullied. What happened was he stopped wanting to go 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:16.680 to school. UM, and this was probably around the middle 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:20.160 of first grade. Stop wanting to go to school, and 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:23.080 UM said he was sick. And then in the middle 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:24.760 of the day, all of a sudden he'd get better. 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.960 And this happened many, many, like three days, and all 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.559 of a sudden, we thought there's a pattern here. And 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.920 he wouldn't tell us why, but he told his sister, 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.760 and then his sister told us, and I immediately called 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:43.200 the principal at home, and I said, I want something 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.080 done about this. This is not okay with me. I 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:48.760 didn't know how serious it was for him, but it 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.640 was serious for me. And the principal said, oh, kids 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.839 will be kids, it's not anything to worry about. So 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.080 he wanted to go to the other school. But for me, 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.080 it was a I wanted him out of that school. 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:06.520 And I don't think I ever knew how traumatic and 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:10.520 how it affected Dylan until he started to go through 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:15.160 transition and told me why he was trans I mean, 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:19.440 I was clueless. Now you're walking around you decided now, 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.160 look it's safer on nine, I'm just gonna I gotta 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.079 suppress this because I can't keep living like this. Right, 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:29.120 you do get into the cool school, right, okay? Um 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.480 didn't continue there or not for a little while. I 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:34.880 remember in third grade, like you were saying, how you 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:36.800 like to dress up his characters. I would see a 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.120 boy that would have something and I needed it. Like 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.920 we went around shopping for this that that this boy 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.120 had for so long. It was like a Tommy Hill 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.520 figure like puffy jacket, and he was really cool. That 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:53.079 guy was. He wasn't cool, he was like really smart, 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:55.360 and I was like, I want to be him. So 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.679 I started wearing what he wore. And then I remember 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.320 this guy had these shoelaces that were like bunge shoe 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.800 laces at the time, and I was like, I need those, 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:06.200 and I got those, and then fourth and fifth grade 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.960 came and I don't know what happened. I was just, oh, well, 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.120 everybody in my family knows about the headband because I 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:13.840 had really short hair. And then I was like, okay, 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:17.000 I'm gonna like be a girl now or whatever. And 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.680 so I used this headband to like segue like I 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:22.360 was growing my hair out and it made me look 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:25.839 more feminine. So like I wore this headband for like 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.559 every day for a year, and so when my family 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:32.360 talks about it, they'll be like the headband, Like everyone 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.040 knows about the head but what did you think the 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:37.240 headband was going to do? I don't know. I was 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.400 really connected to those kinds of things, like when I 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.640 really liked hats, as a kid, like yeah, and like 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.160 it made me feel more masculine. I think that was 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.600 part of it. And when we went on like trips, 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.120 and I was very serious about my hat, and one 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.560 time it flew off and in a car in Mexico 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.280 or something, the guy turned like does a you turn, 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.360 pulls back onto the street, like swipes it up, and 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.600 I get my hat back, like raising Arizona. Yeah, the road. 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:07.000 That's very cool. Alright. So so now you're you're you're nine, 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.600 You're you're in school. You're suppressing, but you're you're still 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:13.040 making manifesting ways at a private to you like the headband, 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:18.160 the hat and so on. Was there? Did you proceed 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:23.120 a pace to high school and everything's okay, You've got 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:27.160 like a comfortable suppression. No, No, everything got really serious 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.360 in middle school because that's when puberty started to really happen. 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.640 I didn't really like recognize at the time, this is 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.040 what's wrong, Like, oh, I don't want to, you know, 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:42.000 become a woman. I just was like really depressed, clinically depressed. 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.240 And it brought out a lot of bad being, like 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.160 a lot of behaviors that were not ideal, like self 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:54.440 harming behaviors, and then I got you know, antidepressants. And 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.800 then in high school, like the first year was really 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.040 hard for me. And I mean I always hung out 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:02.880 in the theater in high school because that's where I 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:06.280 felt comfortable, like, and I only hung out with theater 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:11.600 kids really And then I did sports, which I did lacrosse, 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.400 and I did track and field and water follow I 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.840 did a lot of random sports, but yeah, sports, Like 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.160 I mean, I had a lot of body issues, like 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:26.200 I hadn't eating disorder, and so sports being active was 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.880 what made me feel better about myself. So because it 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.520 was the er fins and it makes I mean biologically 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:36.080 it makes sense. So so it seems like this it's 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:40.240 a philosophical quandary, right, like you feel these changes, I'm 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:44.400 becoming something I don't want to be. Yeah, something not 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:46.600 only do I don't want to be, but I cannot stop. 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.920 This was that largely what was happening. It was like 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:54.480 being out of control and the fact that not just 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:59.520 out of control, but like that it's you're going to 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.840 change into something that isn't you Like, oh, I'm out 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.880 of control and this isn't something I ever wanted. But 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.280 now now you're in high school, now so middle school, 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.880 this is the Internet age. So you asked your father 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.360 early on about sex change. Had you started thinking about 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:20.200 it in a more directed way, or was it just 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.800 as general, kind of in more a sense of, man, 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.800 I'm depressed, and maybe you're thinking that this is just 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:31.360 kind of puberty, young person moods thing. Yeah, no one thought, 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:34.560 you know, no one thought back, oh, remember that time 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:36.960 when Dylan was dressing as a boy, and maybe like 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:38.960 that's a thing and maybe he should talk about it. 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.400 Not even myself. I couldn't even do that for myself. 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:45.240 And so it's just like, oh, Dylan's depressed, and the drugs, 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:49.520 like the antidepressants work, but there's still something wrong or 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.760 there's still something missing to this equation. And I mean 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.480 for a parent, I mean, especially from the generation that 0:16:56.560 --> 0:17:03.000 I came from, thinking your child could be transgender was 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:08.520 just not even a possibility. So he was. She was 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:12.000 a tomboy, you know, and the issue she was having 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:16.040 emotionally was just puberty. I mean, that was our logic. 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.600 Did you going along with the tomboy piece, did you 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:27.640 think there's a possibility that my daughter is a lesbian? Yes, 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:31.879 of course, because she liked she liked women, too. Yeah. 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.280 So yeah, I always knew I liked women too, Like 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:35.920 when I was five and I was you know, I 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:37.679 knew I was a boy. I was also like, I 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.960 like women, and so that's what I was for, you know, 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.640 in middle school I came out as bisexual, and then 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.399 in high school, I don't know, I used you know, 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.480 there are so many terms now, I was like pan sexual, 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:59.439 like fluid. Yeah, so like I knew I liked women, 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.440 and so I was very much in the LGBT community 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:04.720 in high school and high school, and I would have 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.200 So did this provide you some cover at this point now, 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:09.320 because you finally, Okay, I can be in a place 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:13.040 where I'm not being mocked, right, Yeah, definitely, No, it was. 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.160 That was really helpful. I had a lot of friends 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.879 who were gay. There are a lot of gay people 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:20.520 in the theater, you know, so that was kind of 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:22.879 my community. And I was in the g s A, 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.080 so that was helpful as well, which stands for the 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:30.760 Gay Straight Alliance, so the Gay Stright Alliance. That doesn't 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:33.359 necessarily include trans you know, but we did have a 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.680 transgender person in the Gay Stright Alliance and I knew 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.400 him pretty well because he went to middle school where 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:41.359 I went to middle school, and I went to an 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.360 all girls school, so he kind of went through that 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.560 before me, and not even like I saw him and 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:51.560 I knew I identified with him in some way. And 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:53.679 I remember at one point I cut my hair and 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.600 died it like he did. But I still did not realize. 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.000 You yourself did not realize like why I was doing that. 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:05.679 It sort of makes sense to me, right, if I 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.320 think about my early sexual strivings. I remember being four 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.600 years old, five years old and throwing my pencil onto 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:14.479 the teacher's desk. It's like, look the teacher's desk, pick 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:16.960 up the pencil, right, But I didn't think about that 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:19.639 until I got to be an older adult person. I 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.520 was like, oh, this is what's manifest now, is a 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:27.960 certain aspect of heterosexuality. I mean, you know, I mean, 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:30.800 I don't know what I expected, but that's that's kind 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.040 of kind I was doing. So again, it makes sense 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.600 that you would have gone back to say, how come 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:37.520 I didn't see it then? How come I didn't see 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:39.040 it then? But now you're in high school in the 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.639 g s A with somebody who's trans. He said, I 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:43.680 always liked the guy, but do you ever start to 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:47.600 think still not still not okay, very much in denial 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.639 about it. So was it the laughter factor? Was it 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.240 the you had found your way and you figured this 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.280 is my way I can Yeah, I think that's it was. 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.199 I was comfortable, like it was easy, you know, I 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.840 had found a commu unity that would accept me that way. 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.640 And I was very like gender fluid, and I would 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.960 have periods of time where I would be more butch, 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:10.520 and then I would have periods of times where would 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.520 be more feminine and it would just kind of switch 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:17.560 off like that a lot um. But I think I 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.879 was my biggest fear was of not being accepted. And 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:23.840 I think that fear was so strong that I was 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.600 able to put like my true identity on the back 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:31.639 burner for so long because I was accepted, right because 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.480 of course college comes with building communities, right exactly. I 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:38.679 was surrounded you know, I'm surrounded by people all the time. Busy. 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.600 That's another thing, just being busy, like especially in high 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:44.400 school with the S A T s and getting into 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.480 college focusing on what do I want to major? And 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:52.080 I didn't really think about myself that much. It's a 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:54.760 great line that more ascorsation line about morbid self attention 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:56.920 if you think about other things, right, But then you 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:59.879 get out of college. So then I get out of 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:02.160 Are you still during this college period? Are you still 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.960 are you still on antidepressants? Yeah? Okay, So through high 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:11.160 school to college, Okay, all right, I get out of college, 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:15.720 and I'm alone more than I've ever been in the word. 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.680 Which school did you go to? I went to Pittser College. 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:22.880 Oh my daughter's there. Cool. Yeah, Wow, that's a small world. 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:29.160 Yeah alright, so okay, so yeah, I'm alone, like I've 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:32.000 never been to college. You've got your degree in UM. 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:36.040 I created it in Eastern and Western Perspectives on Mental health, 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:42.680 so essentially psychology. Yeah, and I just had so much 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.359 more time to focus on myself. And not only that, 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:47.800 but I went out into the world and I was 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:54.400 like looking for a career and in college, like at Pitzer, 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:58.120 in that bubble, it's I mean, Pitzer has people like 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:00.920 you know, they're trans people are people going by Z 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:09.919 like there's they then and it's just a bubble and 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:13.439 it's comfortable. And and then I get out into the 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:16.040 world and it's not like that. And I mean where 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:18.560 I was, I was like working in Beverly Hills at 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:23.120 a restaurant where they required you to dress like very 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:34.359 um gender specific, just like no um it was. It 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:38.320 was just like a fancy restaurant and they were like, 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:40.720 you know, women have to wear dresses all the time, 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.520 and you have to wear makeup. And one time that 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:46.720 they made me put on more lipstick at work because 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:51.040 I wasn't wearing enough, which is weird. And I just 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:54.560 started to get really really depressed, just like suicidal. At 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:58.080 this point, I was just yeah, and I was just 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:01.320 so unhappy, and I was like, why, you know, why 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:07.520 am I so unhappy? Like and that's when I started 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:09.880 to kind of like break down in a way. And 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:13.960 the breakdown is what led me into the realization that 0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:19.040 I needed to start my transition. And people, you know, 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:23.280 like by my last year of school, people like my friends, 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:25.639 he knew me I had short hair at that time, 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:29.159 and my friends would be like Eric, Like they'd call 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:32.800