WEBVTT - The Economic Impact of Trump’s War on Climate Science

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Even as a journalist

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<v Speaker 1>who spends a lot of time following the news, it

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<v Speaker 1>can be hard to keep track of everything the Trump

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<v Speaker 1>administration is doing on any given day. Tonight, the US

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<v Speaker 1>and China and trade talks in Stockholm a waiting for

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<v Speaker 1>US take July twenty nights, late summer, usually a sleepy

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<v Speaker 1>time for news.

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<v Speaker 2>I think six consecutive days of old time highs for

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<v Speaker 2>the US anquity market as fenche.

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<v Speaker 1>There are a lot of headlines to sift through that day,

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<v Speaker 1>but there's one in particular that got climate journalists perking up.

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<v Speaker 3>EPA Administrator Lee Zelden says the agency wants to hear

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<v Speaker 3>from people to finalize a regulation that proposes to rescind

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<v Speaker 3>the Endangerment Finding, and.

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<v Speaker 4>If finalized, today's announcement would amount to the largest de

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<v Speaker 4>regulatory action in the history of the United States.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Lee Zelden, the EPA administrator, proposing to revoke the

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<v Speaker 1>Dangerment Finding, a rule that has formed the bedrock of

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<v Speaker 1>environmental regulation in the US since two thousand and nine.

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<v Speaker 3>It's basically saying greenhouse gas emissions do pose a threat

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<v Speaker 3>to human health and giving EPA legal authority to actually

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<v Speaker 3>regulate specifically greenhouse gas pollutions.

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<v Speaker 1>That's my colleague Bloomberg reporter Zara Hirg.

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<v Speaker 2>What it does is it binds a really vast, global,

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<v Speaker 2>century scale amount of scientific research to law.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's Eric Rosten, another climate reporter for Bloomberg.

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<v Speaker 2>And says that this is a problem and it'll affect

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<v Speaker 2>human health, and therefore we need to create policies that

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<v Speaker 2>will prevent harm that we know is probably coming.

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<v Speaker 1>Zara and Eric say the EPA's proposal to reverse the

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<v Speaker 1>finding was a huge deal. The agency claimed the rollback

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<v Speaker 1>could save more than fifty four billion dollars in annually

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<v Speaker 1>by essentially undoing greenhouse gas emissions regulations. And that proposal

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<v Speaker 1>is just one action that the Trump administration has taken

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<v Speaker 1>to undercut the work that government agencies do to address pollution,

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<v Speaker 1>climate change, disaster mitigation, and more. Zara says it's part

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<v Speaker 1>of a broader attack on the scientific establishment.

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<v Speaker 3>The Union of Concerned Scientists did itally, and they looked

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<v Speaker 3>at anti science actions total and they found around or

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<v Speaker 3>at least four hundred just in the first six months,

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<v Speaker 3>which was more than the entire total for the first

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<v Speaker 3>Trump administration.

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<v Speaker 1>When you look at climate science alone, the actions the

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<v Speaker 1>administration has taken have impacted at least half a dozen

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<v Speaker 1>agencies and disrupted billions of dollars in funding.

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<v Speaker 3>To conclude everything from firing of scientists putting them on

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<v Speaker 3>administrative leave, as well as canceling programs or grants, or

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<v Speaker 3>taking down information from the web or reconsidering policies.

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<v Speaker 1>The Trump administration has said that quote, agencies are refocusing

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<v Speaker 1>on their core missions and shifting away from ideological activism unquote.

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<v Speaker 1>The EPA has said environmental deregulation will create jobs and

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<v Speaker 1>save Americans billions of dollars. But Zara and Eric's reporting

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<v Speaker 1>tells a different story.

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<v Speaker 3>I'll say that you're sort of hearing two different things

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<v Speaker 3>from them. Often the economy is invoked when they're talking

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<v Speaker 3>about this stuff, and it is sort of framed under,

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<v Speaker 3>we do want to save money. But then you're also

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<v Speaker 3>just hearing from EPA's administrator Lee Zelden or Energy Secretary

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<v Speaker 3>Chris Wright, just a very clear condemnation in questioning of

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<v Speaker 3>climate science and people that work in climate.

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<v Speaker 1>And while these anti climate actions are expected to have

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<v Speaker 1>profound economic impacts, they're not necessarily the ones the administration

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<v Speaker 1>is touting they could slow GDP growth and disaster prone states,

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<v Speaker 1>which could also impact national GDP growth. They could make

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<v Speaker 1>it harder to prepare for extreme weather events, which have

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<v Speaker 1>cost the global economy and estimated two point eight trillion

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<v Speaker 1>dollars over the past two decades. It's hard to put

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<v Speaker 1>a price on future disasters, but the cost to green

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<v Speaker 1>energy projects is already quantifiable. In the first half of

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<v Speaker 1>this year, twenty two billion dollars worth of green projects

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<v Speaker 1>have been canceled.

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<v Speaker 2>Once you start peeling back the impacts of climate change,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a drag on the whole economy.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Sarah Holder, and this is the big take from

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg News Today on the show, breaking down the Trump

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<v Speaker 1>Administration's war on climate science, one agency at a time,

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<v Speaker 1>and calculating the impact you could have for decades to come.

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<v Speaker 1>Zarahirjee is a climate reporter for Bloomberg. She's been closely

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<v Speaker 1>tracking the Trump administration attacks on climate science since President

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<v Speaker 1>Trump's inauguration in January.

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<v Speaker 3>This administration is trying to pull back on a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of climate policy all at once, and it's doing it

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<v Speaker 3>in a lot of different ways.

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<v Speaker 1>In just a few months, the Trump administration has cut funding,

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<v Speaker 1>canceled grants, and fired workers at an alphabet soup of

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<v Speaker 1>federal agencies, the EPA, FEMA, NOAH, the CDC, NASA, the DOI,

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<v Speaker 1>and the DOE. They all handle aspects of the way

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<v Speaker 1>the US anticipates, mitigates, tracks, and response to climate change

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<v Speaker 1>in natural disasters at a time when climate related catastrophes

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<v Speaker 1>are getting more intense and more expensive to deal with.

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<v Speaker 2>To cite a prominent example is like last September a

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<v Speaker 2>year ago, a hurricane came to the mountains of western

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<v Speaker 2>North Carolina.

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<v Speaker 1>That's climate reporter Eric Roston.

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<v Speaker 2>And in December, two or three months after the storm,

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<v Speaker 2>the state of North Carolina put the damage estimate like

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<v Speaker 2>fifty nine billion dollars. So, like, that's fifty nine billion dollars.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that somebody's going to pay for by building new things,

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<v Speaker 2>or that nobody's going to pay for and people will

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<v Speaker 2>move or not build back or find new jobs.

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<v Speaker 1>As catastrophes get more expensive, the administration is making big

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<v Speaker 1>changes to the organizations that deal with them most directly.

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<v Speaker 1>Some of the biggest changes have come for the Environmental

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<v Speaker 1>Protection Agency, led by Lee Zelden, the former New York

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<v Speaker 1>congressman's history includes voting against environmental legislation, and Zara says,

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps unsurprisingly, Zelden has been pushing the EPA to take

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<v Speaker 1>some new positions.

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<v Speaker 3>We're used to thinking about the EPA as this key

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<v Speaker 3>environmental regulatory agency, and instead, under Zelden's lead, they're really

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<v Speaker 3>pushing quite openly a deregulatory approach.

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<v Speaker 1>In March, Zelden announced dozens of rollbacks to regulation.

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<v Speaker 4>Agency is initiating thirty one historic actions to fulfill President

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<v Speaker 4>Trump's promise to unleash American energy, revitalize our auto industry,

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<v Speaker 4>restore the rule of law, and give power back to

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<v Speaker 4>the States.

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<v Speaker 1>Then in July, Zelden announced that the EPA would also

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<v Speaker 1>try to reverse the landmark endangerment finding, which we talked

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<v Speaker 1>about earlier. Zelden and the EPA haven't officially revoked the rule,

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<v Speaker 1>but Zara says the fact that it's even on the

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<v Speaker 1>table says a lot about Zelden's priorities.

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<v Speaker 3>They're also looking at reconsidering car emission standards, power plant

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<v Speaker 3>pollution rules, facilities having to report on some of their emissions,

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<v Speaker 3>and the.

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<v Speaker 1>New direction for the EPA goes beyond deregulation.

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<v Speaker 3>They announced in July that they're moving to close their

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<v Speaker 3>Office of Research and Development, which is like their key

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<v Speaker 3>research office that's looking at future environmental.

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<v Speaker 1>Risks, and like many other federal agencies, they're bleeding staff.

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<v Speaker 3>Over two thousand EPA staff have taken kind of the

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<v Speaker 3>deferral program or this incentive program, which means that they

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<v Speaker 3>haven't been working, but they've been paid for a couple

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<v Speaker 3>months and will eventually leave the agency.

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<v Speaker 1>Zara says these changes to the EPA could leave permanent scars.

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<v Speaker 3>It might not all be super visible to someone on

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<v Speaker 3>the ground right now, but in the coming months, in

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<v Speaker 3>the coming years, as experts leave, as things stop showing

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<v Speaker 3>up on the website. It's not just the protections that

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<v Speaker 3>we've come to expect that exists today, but the people

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<v Speaker 3>looking for what is the next thing that we need

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<v Speaker 3>to be worried about, and we will be caught potentially

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<v Speaker 3>flat footed with whatever the next future threat is.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a similar story at FEMA, the agency that prepares

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<v Speaker 1>for and responds to disasters like floods, fires, and hurricanes.

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<v Speaker 3>People most know FEMA for when a major disaster happens,

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<v Speaker 3>they can come on the ground and help. Then they

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<v Speaker 3>can provide funding, and we've already started to see that

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<v Speaker 3>actual disaster aid funding has been less than in previous

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<v Speaker 3>years when they have simply stopped providing hazard mitigation, something

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<v Speaker 3>that used to just be an automatic, Yes, extra money

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<v Speaker 3>to help states.

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<v Speaker 1>Then there are the funding and staff and cuts that

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<v Speaker 1>affect the scientists who help predict disasters before they happen,

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<v Speaker 1>the scientists at NOAH.

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<v Speaker 3>It is a very kind of immediate impact that people

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<v Speaker 3>can see because these are meteorologists that are tracking to

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<v Speaker 3>see if there's a tornado and helping put out tornado alerts,

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<v Speaker 3>for example, or if there's a hurricane, or if there's

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<v Speaker 3>a flood. Because of this, there's actually been a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of response, a lot of criticism. Members of Congress have

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<v Speaker 3>spoken up, and so now actually the agency is hiring back.

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<v Speaker 1>Then there's the Department of the Interior and the Department

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<v Speaker 1>of Energy. Grant programs, permitting and tax incentives for clean

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<v Speaker 1>energy projects typically run through these agencies. Now, previously approved

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<v Speaker 1>projects are finding that their permits or their funding are

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<v Speaker 1>in peril.

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<v Speaker 3>So you have a lot of companies in the space

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<v Speaker 3>that are scrambling because they thought they had projects, they

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<v Speaker 3>thought they had tax incentives, that they would be able

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<v Speaker 3>to use, and now those are disappearing.

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<v Speaker 1>And beyond what's been lost at the DOE, Eric says

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<v Speaker 1>he's also been paying close attention to what kind of

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<v Speaker 1>climate related research is being done there.

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<v Speaker 2>The Department of Energy issued a report by five scientists

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<v Speaker 2>who are known within the scientific community for being skeptics

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<v Speaker 2>of the I only want to call it mainstream. It's

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<v Speaker 2>just of the science.

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<v Speaker 1>Their report was published in July, and it's said global

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<v Speaker 1>warming projections are exaggerated, that some policies to reduce emissions

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<v Speaker 1>may do more harm than good, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Was immediately sort of swarmed by enormous amounts of scientific scrutiny.

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<v Speaker 1>In early September, a group of eighty five scientists published

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<v Speaker 1>a four hundred page rebuttal to the DOE report, writing

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<v Speaker 1>that the scientists behind it appeared to have been quote

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<v Speaker 1>personally recruited by the Secretary of Energy to advance a

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<v Speaker 1>particular viewpoint favored by DOE leadership. However, contested its findings.

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<v Speaker 1>The paper is already shaping environmental policy. It came out

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<v Speaker 1>within a week of the Trump administration announcing they'd be

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<v Speaker 1>reconsidering the endangerment finding, and Zara says it helped the

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<v Speaker 1>administration bolster its argument.

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<v Speaker 3>This is them putting out a report with effectively alternative science.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not just pulling back on the work, but they're

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<v Speaker 3>kind of pushing an alternative narrative which goes a step beyond.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, unpacking the economic and human consequences of

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<v Speaker 1>slash and climate funding and how reversing course on green

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<v Speaker 1>investments could undermine the US on the global stage. Seing

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<v Speaker 1>the economic impacts of the Trump administration's many attacks on

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<v Speaker 1>climate science is tricky. How do you account for the

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<v Speaker 1>costs of a disaster that hasn't happened yet. How do

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<v Speaker 1>you model how more pollution could lead to higher spending

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<v Speaker 1>on healthcare?

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<v Speaker 2>Climate change. There's obviously a ton of ways to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about it, but an important way is that souped and nuts,

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<v Speaker 2>it's an economic problem.

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<v Speaker 1>Climate reporter Eric Roston again on the front end.

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<v Speaker 2>It's an economic problem because the prices of incumbent energy

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<v Speaker 2>don't really match up with the cost on society. Economists

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<v Speaker 2>call that an externality, a cost that society absorbs but

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<v Speaker 2>that producers don't.

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<v Speaker 1>Halting climate science research also has other more direct economic

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<v Speaker 1>impacts on private companies. Like companies that work on climate

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<v Speaker 1>projects supported by federal funding or that rely on federal

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<v Speaker 1>climate data to inform their business strategy. Take the National

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<v Speaker 1>Climate Assessment as an example.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a document that companies talk about earnings calls.

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<v Speaker 1>Chipotle and Marriott and Travelers have all cited the NCAA

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<v Speaker 1>in public disclosures, But in April, the administration dismissed hundreds

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<v Speaker 1>of outside scientists who had volunteered their time to write

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<v Speaker 1>the next version of the report, and the government website

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<v Speaker 1>hosting past reports has been taken down.

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<v Speaker 2>People just want to make good decisions and taking away

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<v Speaker 2>scientific information that is paid for by the public and

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<v Speaker 2>presented to the public that is increasingly rare. People have

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<v Speaker 2>come to expect it because they've come to realize that

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<v Speaker 2>they need it.

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<v Speaker 1>Climate reporter Zarahirji says that some companies have been particularly

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<v Speaker 1>vocal about how important it is for the government to

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<v Speaker 1>continue to invest in climate science.

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<v Speaker 3>Rivian, which is this electric vehicle company, was among those

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<v Speaker 3>that had spoken up at this four day hearing in August.

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<v Speaker 1>That was a hearing over the proposed Endangerment finding reversal.

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<v Speaker 3>Offering comments about the move to reconsider the endangerment finding,

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<v Speaker 3>and they specifically were speaking out against it and about

0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.280
<v Speaker 3>the harms that could have for the automotive industry and

0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:13.120
<v Speaker 3>consumers writ large. I mean, you just think about the

0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:18.040
<v Speaker 3>regulatory environment. Businesses often thrive and having a stable regulatory environment,

0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.680
<v Speaker 3>So any dramatic or shift changes to that can just

0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:26.800
<v Speaker 3>be rough, especially if that leads to states having their

0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.680
<v Speaker 3>own rules and then they're dealing with an environment where

0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.920
<v Speaker 3>they have fifty different rules to deal with rather than

0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:35.840
<v Speaker 3>when they just had one federal environment. And I think,

0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.560
<v Speaker 3>especially when you're hearing from the world of clean energy,

0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:45.160
<v Speaker 3>clean energy tech, solar companies, wing companies, they've been specifically

0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:48.680
<v Speaker 3>targeted by this administration. I mean, the impacts have been

0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.280
<v Speaker 3>pretty dramatic, and those companies are speaking.

0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:57.120
<v Speaker 1>Out, speaking out, and sometimes taking legal action. The energy

0:14:57.160 --> 0:14:59.560
<v Speaker 1>firm orsted along with the states of Rhode Island, and

0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.360
<v Speaker 1>it sued the Trump administration for halting a wind farm

0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:04.920
<v Speaker 1>project that was nearly complete.

0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:08.840
<v Speaker 3>So these effects are real and they're trickling down, and

0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.400
<v Speaker 3>I think we'll start to hear more too as more

0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:12.480
<v Speaker 3>of these changes come down.

0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.000
<v Speaker 1>If the US stops investing in these spaces, how might

0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:20.200
<v Speaker 1>the country fall behind on the global stage? And who

0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:22.840
<v Speaker 1>is best positioned to take the lead here.

0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:27.520
<v Speaker 2>China already owns most of the new economy. You just

0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:32.680
<v Speaker 2>look at any clean energy technology or like part for

0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:37.200
<v Speaker 2>a technology in China provides the world with probably you know,

0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.280
<v Speaker 2>it's insane, like fifty to eighty percent of it. So

0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.360
<v Speaker 2>in a lot of ways, we're already losing. And if

0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.280
<v Speaker 2>you take a long view, the world we live in

0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:50.280
<v Speaker 2>has grown and been sustained by decades of us spending

0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:53.680
<v Speaker 2>more money in science than just about anybody else. It's

0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:58.320
<v Speaker 2>not clear who was going to step forward and replenish

0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.600
<v Speaker 2>that in other countries that do invest in this stuff

0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.280
<v Speaker 2>may not also be democratic countries, and therefore the science

0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.880
<v Speaker 2>doesn't come along with a mandate for transparency.

0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.080
<v Speaker 3>One of the biggest places to stand to benefit, and

0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.800
<v Speaker 3>we've heard this from our sources, is China as well

0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:21.400
<v Speaker 3>as potentially Europe. They may have engineering advancements or kind

0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.800
<v Speaker 3>of business advancements and spaces where we're just not operating

0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.280
<v Speaker 3>or the companies don't have the space for. But they're

0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:31.920
<v Speaker 3>also looking to poach literally the experts who work here.

0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.080
<v Speaker 3>This is something where we're going to start seeing in

0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:39.000
<v Speaker 3>the coming years who may benefit because they're trying to

0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.840
<v Speaker 3>grab up all this talent that's sort of being left

0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.040
<v Speaker 3>on the floor when we have all of these funding

0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.160
<v Speaker 3>cuts and these staffing cuts.

0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.200
<v Speaker 1>And while so much of the US government's climate science

0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:51.720
<v Speaker 1>work has been reversed in just a matter of months,

0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.200
<v Speaker 1>Zara says rebuilding will take much longer.

0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.840
<v Speaker 3>I don't think this administration has been shy about this,

0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.120
<v Speaker 3>but I think there's a sense that maybe the private

0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.479
<v Speaker 3>sector other people will step up. And the reality is

0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:09.479
<v Speaker 3>from me talking to local emergency managers, is if the

0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:14.760
<v Speaker 3>federal governments support for their efforts go away, it's just

0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:17.960
<v Speaker 3>not going to happen. No one's actually going to step in.

0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.040
<v Speaker 3>There have been a lot of efforts, specifically in climate

0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.359
<v Speaker 3>where if the Trump administration has ended a rapport, or

0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.159
<v Speaker 3>ended a program or ended a data set, some of

0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.560
<v Speaker 3>those people are trying to find ways where within civil

0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.080
<v Speaker 3>society they can resurrect it in some way. But not

0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:37.879
<v Speaker 3>everything will be resurrected, and we're still waiting to see

0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.440
<v Speaker 3>what's actually going to be around at the end of

0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:41.119
<v Speaker 3>the four years.

0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:47.440
<v Speaker 1>This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder.

0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.360
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0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:54.160
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0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:57.960
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0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.439
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0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.120
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0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.280
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow