1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Also media. It's spoky week that can happen here. It's 2 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 1: spooky week, the week where things are spooky. I'm your host, 3 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: Mia Wong, and with me is Garrison. Hello, and today 4 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: all right, right, we've gotten we've gotten, we've gotten the 5 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: preliminary spooky out and so today we're gonna be talking 6 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: about one of the sort of key elements of Halloween, 7 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: and that is chocolate and so on. On a very 8 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: basic level, we're going to ask what is chocolate? And 9 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: the answer, and it pains me to say this to 10 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: someone who really loves chocolate is really really bleak. Yeah, 11 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: but before we get into exactly how bleak it is, uh, 12 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna look at sort of the early history of chocolate. 13 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: So most so, okay, there's there's a lot of disagreement 14 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: about exactly how old chocolate is. I've seen sources that 15 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: say three thousand BC. I've seen sources that say seventeen 16 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: hundred BC. The seventeen hundred BC is the one that's 17 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: pretty consistent. It seems like the Olmecs had something like chocolate. 18 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: That's it. It's a sort of bitter drink that they 19 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: sometimes to put vanilla or red pepper. 20 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: In Yeah, it was, it was. It was. It was 21 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 2: like a bitter slurry that you from what I hear, 22 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 2: not very enjoyable, but it got you like really high, 23 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: like not high like like like weed, but like kind 24 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 2: of like cocaine. It was. It was like it was 25 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: it was a massive stimulant. 26 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: Is yeah. 27 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, from what I hear about these kind of early 28 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: gross bitter chocolate slurries. 29 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I mean this is a thing 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: that's this is not a regular consumption drink. Basically everyone 31 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: he uses this and this and chocolate is consumed by 32 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: a bunch of different civilisations, like across like most of 33 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: South America. There's something sort of like the Mayans obviously, 34 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: the Mayans and the Aztecs too. There's a lot of 35 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: places where where this is being used, and it's everyone 36 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: seems to use it for ritual purposes. Yeah. I think 37 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: at some point the I think it was the the 38 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: Olemex at some point we're doing these like they were 39 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: making fermented alcohol out of so so normally with with chocolate, 40 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: you're using like the cocoa beans, right, but there's like 41 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: a flesh and the flute fruit around the beans and 42 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: they were making like a fermented thing out of that, 43 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,679 Speaker 1: and I don't know, I leave as an exercise to 44 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: the reader with you count that as chocolate. But the 45 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: sort of conventional story goes okay. So like several thousand 46 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: years after the Olmes, the Assex and the Mayans using 47 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: it for ritual purposes and the story basically is okay. 48 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: So Herman Cortes drink chocolate with stick King Maktazuma. Cortes goes, 49 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: this is bitter as shit and sucks ass, but he 50 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: brings it back to Europe anyways, and in Europe they 51 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: mix it with sugar and also with honey, but mostly 52 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: with sugar, and it becomes, you know, it becomes very 53 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: very popular drinking Europe. And at some point, this is 54 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: like the eighteen forty so like like takes some about 55 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: like three hundred years to figure out how to make 56 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: cocoa powder. But once you have cocoa powder, you can 57 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: It's not it ceases to be bitter like it in 58 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,679 Speaker 1: the in the way that it sort of is naturally. 59 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 2: You can you can process it with like like like 60 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 2: basic solutions, which which neutralizes some of the acidic and 61 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: bitter bitter tastes, which is why you should always buy 62 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: a Dutch process cocoa powder, which is unfortunately hard to 63 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: find these days. But it is, it is, it is, 64 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: it is the shit. 65 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's let's that's actually yeah, so the that's 66 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: that's Dutch cocoa. And then twenty years later someone figures 67 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: out how to make them into a chocolate bar, and 68 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: you know, sort of a law, you have chocolate. Now. 69 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: The conventional histories are missing something very, very imp which 70 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: is something that defined has defined the production of chocolate 71 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: since Europeans got a hold of it and continues to 72 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: define it today. And that thing is slavery. Yeah, yes, yeah, 73 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: And you know this is slavery is a very sort 74 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: of important part of the history of chocolate because slavery 75 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: is what transforms the older ritual chocolate used by a 76 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: bunch of different indigenous societies for several thousand years, into 77 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: modern chocolate. And this is this is a point that 78 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: I want to make because most most histories of chocolate tend, 79 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: you know, when they're trying to find the origin of 80 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: modern chocolate, they go, oh, it's chocolate bar. And I 81 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: think they're wrong. I think they're very wrong. I think 82 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: the distinct European innovation of chocolate is to add sugar 83 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: to it. Yes, and this raises the very bleak question 84 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: where does sugar come from? And the answer, of course 85 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: is slavery. Sugar is one of the primary crops of 86 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: slave economies in both the colonies and the West Indies. 87 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: It is one of the key elements of the so 88 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: called triangle trade where you know, you may have you 89 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: probably have learned this in school, but you know, for people, 90 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: for people who've been out of school for a long time. 91 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: So the triangle trade is Europe. Since manufacturer goes to Africa. 92 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: It trades that fruit enslaved people and slave people taken 93 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: from Africa to the colonies and sometimes to America, sometimes 94 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: to the colonies in the West Indies. Uh. And then 95 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: they take you know, the products of slavery from plantations 96 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: back to Europe. And that's you know, rice, indigo, tobacco, cotton, molasses, rum, 97 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: and critically sugar back to Europe. Actually, wait, did did 98 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:36,679 Speaker 1: they Did they teach you the triangle trade? 99 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yes, I mean I I I did learn. My 100 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: Christian Homescholling curriculum wasn't the best, but we did, we did. 101 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: We did cover some basic things. 102 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: It's interesting because the triangle trade as a model, like 103 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: isn't that old, even though even though like this is 104 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: the way that we all understand, like Tyler sort of 105 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: colonial trade work, it's a kind of recent thing. Yeah. 106 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: So sugar. Sugar is a very very key part of 107 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: this entire thing. And there's a very very famous this 108 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: sort of classic study of sugar and slavery is Sydney W. 109 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: Mintz's Sweetness and Power, which is a fundamental tax and 110 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: a lot of sort of uh a lot of the 111 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: sort of fields around the study of slavery. And one 112 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: of his arguments is that the British industrial proletariat is 113 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: fueled by slave sugar because the sugar is a stimulant 114 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: that you know, they're putting it in tea, which another stimulant. 115 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: They're putting it in whatever they drink, and this is 116 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: a thing that allows them to keep working for longer 117 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: than they otherwise would have been able to. 118 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this also was the origin of Britain's probably 119 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: largest cultural trait, bad teeth. 120 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, so so this is this is 121 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: this is a many aspects of British culture I've are 122 00:06:53,400 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: descended from from slavery and you know, but the the 123 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: other the other important thing for our stories that sugar 124 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: is what makes chocolate sort of palatable to Europeans. And 125 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: and this isn't a sort of interesting thing that Europeans do. 126 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: You know they do this with tobacco too. You haven't 127 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: you have something that you're only supposed to use in 128 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: fairly small amounts for ritual purposes, right, And the Europeans 129 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: are like, okay, but what if we purified the shit 130 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: out of it and they just ate it literally every day? 131 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? Have you ever tried like unsweetened on like chocolate liquor? 132 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: Fucking sucks? I hate it. It's not good. 133 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: You can certainly nibble, it can be a fun novelty 134 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 2: to nibble, but you certainly wouldn't want to eat like 135 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 2: a whole bar of it. 136 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's some real hope boy. Yeah. So, like, 137 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it makes sense that they added sugar to it. 138 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: But the consequence of this is that we can ask 139 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: we can finally ask the question right now now, now 140 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: that it's been transformed by sugar into this object a 141 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: sort of popular consumption, we can ask the question what 142 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: is chocolate? And the answer is that chocolate is colonialism 143 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: plus slavery. It is a fusion of coca, which is 144 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: an indigenous ritual drink sees is a part of the 145 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: wages of colonialism by the European empires, and sugar a 146 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: slave crop that drove the colonial prontation economy. And you know, 147 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: you might say me, you know you're being harsh here, right, 148 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: even if we accept your argument about chocolate and the 149 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: sixteen hundred, surely, surely that's not sure. Now, wasn't wasn't. 150 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 2: Wasn't slavery abolished in the eighteen hundreds, And now I assume, 151 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 2: I assume Nestle's barving practices are totally above fort see. 152 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: And this is I think the interesting part of the 153 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: story is gare like our readers is assuming a thing 154 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: I'm about to launch into here is the Mars Nestley 155 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: Child slavery lawsuit. And we will because that is a 156 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 1: critical elements of slavery and chocolate production. But there is 157 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: also still slavery and sugar production capitalism. And not only 158 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: is there slavery and sugar production, there is slavery in 159 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: sugar production in the exact same place there were slavery 160 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: in sugar production five hundred years ago. And this is 161 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: one of the sort of stunning things about you know, 162 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: the miss of capitalism, right, which is that, Okay, capitalism 163 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: has had four hundred you know, I'm gonna give them 164 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: a bit of credit and be like, Okay, I don't know, 165 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: like I'm gonna I'm gonna give capitalism a little bit 166 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: of credit and give it only was being responsible for 167 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: four hundred years of this and not five hundred years 168 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: of this because you know, whatever complicated arguments about whether 169 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: the capitalist transition is in the fifteen hundred and sixty hundreds, 170 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: but you know, they have had four hundred years to 171 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: solve the problem of slavery on Hispaniola. Has it done that? No, 172 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: it is there is still slavery on the island of 173 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: Fifthpaniola four hundred years later. We're going to be discussing 174 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: in a second. Still the best possible thing here is 175 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: that maybe and this is it is arguable, maybe last 176 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: year they're stopped being slaves there. Now I don't even 177 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: think that. I don't think that's true. And we're going 178 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: to get into that, but you know, before before we 179 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: sort of launch into you know what, like whether or 180 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: not there are so slaves on Tecker replantations, in the 181 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: Dominican Republic. If you have had four hundred years to 182 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: solve a problem and you have not solved it, you 183 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: are never going to solve it. 184 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: Hey, hey, let's not let's not visionhole ourselves here. There's 185 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 2: a lot of things that have been around for four 186 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 2: hundred years that ought not to be. 187 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: That's true. But if you are an economic system and 188 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: your economic system has been you are supposed to have 189 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: you are supposed to have dealt with this at least 190 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: two hundred years ago. But you know, we've arrived here, 191 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: and this is something we've talked about before in the 192 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: show at least a bit. We've arrived here at one 193 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: of the real weaknesses of both sort of liberal and 194 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: radical accounts of how the capitalist economy works, because both 195 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: sets of accounts as their starting point the fact that 196 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,199 Speaker 1: capitalism is based on free labor, that it's free people 197 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: who enter into contracts to sell you their labor, and 198 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: that forced labor is this sort of like hauled over 199 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: from older economic systems. 200 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 3: No. 201 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 2: I actually just saw a thing today on the dying 202 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: Remains of Twitter about how capitalism is the only economic 203 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: system that's not based on exploitation of violence. 204 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 3: It's based on free trade between markets. It's like people 205 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 3: really believe this shit. It's like I don't know, Like 206 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 3: I don't know. So at some point I'm going to 207 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 3: do an episode about really good. 208 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: Book whose name I'm forgetting right now because I didn't 209 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: look this up beforehand. But there's a really good book 210 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: on the sort of dueling forced labor systems driving the 211 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: tea economy in the late eighteen hundred, so that there's 212 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: there's one forced labor system in China and a different 213 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: forced labor system in India that are both warring in 214 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: each other to control the tea market. 215 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: It is certainly interesting how much tea has impacted like geopolitics. 216 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, we'll do an episode on that one day. Yeah, 217 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: tea's not. 218 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 2: That great, guys. I'm sorry, it's fine. 219 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: Not ta rips. I would not we just don't have 220 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: good tea here. 221 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: I would not do as much killing as people have done. 222 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: It's not worth killing anyone over the number of people 223 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: who've been killed over it is like early. 224 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: Gray is fine on like a rainy afternoon, but come on. 225 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not. It's not worth like conquering continents for huh. 226 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: But okay, so well, back back back to this sort 227 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: of main plot that is not tea, that is in 228 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: fact chocolate. So one of the things that we can 229 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: learn that we learn from this is that, you know, 230 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: forced labor is not just a holdover. It's been a 231 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: It's been a central part of capitalism for as long 232 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: as capitalism has existed, and given its current track record, 233 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: it will be a part of capitalism for as long 234 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: as it exists. And you know, so, there's always been 235 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: a racial component to this, right And this is like 236 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: trivially obvious, right, Like, there's a racial component of slavery, Like, 237 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: holy shit, it's mostly about race. But I think, you know, 238 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: we can we can expand this a little bit and 239 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: it gets you to a some sort of interesting things, 240 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: which is that race is one of you know, so 241 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: like obviously capitalism is supposed to be based on wage labor, 242 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: but race is what mediates your access to wage labor 243 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: in the first place. So, you know, white, like if 244 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: you're an American, right like, white Americans have basically always 245 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: been able to get access to to wage labor, you know, 246 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: And as shitty as wage labor is, it's it's not 247 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: as bad as the other things you can get forced 248 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: into you know. But yeah, so like if you're black, 249 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: like you know, you get as successive forms of slavery. 250 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: If you're indigenous, they tried to enslave you and then 251 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: either sort of kept doing it or gave up and 252 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 1: just killed did the genocide Asian people like who came 253 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: to this continents and also sort of the West Indies 254 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: largely get debt pion engine and entered service to you 255 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: and you can you can sort of work this out 256 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: so on and so forth. There's there's different like modes 257 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 1: of stuff that are the normal sort of like what 258 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: you by default have access to if you are ex race, right, Yeah, 259 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: And obviously this this sort of racial access to wage 260 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: labor is spread across the world. You know, your your 261 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: access to wage labor is dependent on sort of your 262 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: subject position as colonizer colonize as well as you know, 263 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: your sort of global and also you're like local racial 264 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: hierarchies because oh boy, can that shit be really fucked up. 265 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: But the upshot of this is that many of the 266 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: descendants of enslaved Haitian people are still effectively enslaved today 267 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: on sugar plantations than making republic. And so we're gonna 268 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: we're gonna tell that story. But first word, oh god, 269 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: do you know what doesn't know? I cannot guarantee that 270 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: our products and services are slave free like I wish 271 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: I could. 272 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 2: But well, do you know what is also here for 273 00:14:49,320 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: a spooky time this Halloween. That's right, these products and services. 274 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: Okay, we are back. 275 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 2: I'm drinking my not mocha coffee, drinking my regular unsweetened coffee. 276 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: Is therefore totally fine. 277 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm everything. Nothing bad, nothing bad has ever happened 278 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: in the history of coffee. 279 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: No, I'm here, no tea, no chocolate. I'm safe. I'm good. 280 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: Anyway. So unfortunately, the people who are not safe is 281 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: uh a Haitians in the Jamaican Republic. So we are 282 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: not going to do an entire history of slavery in 283 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: the Jamaican Republic because. 284 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 2: Because this is a chocolate episode, and yeah, we have 285 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 2: so much time. 286 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, for many reasons. But one of the 287 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: things that happened in in So we're gonna we're gonna 288 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: look at sort of the like the modern history of this, 289 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: and by modern, I'm starting it in I'm starting it 290 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: in the eighties because I have to pick up place now. 291 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: One of the things that happens in the nineteen eighties 292 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: is that the Dominican Army effectively so goes into Haiti 293 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: or just recruitation people who are in the Dominican Republic 294 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: and are like, hey, you're gonna okay, we have like 295 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: jobs for you, like come like do this work. And 296 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: so a bunch of people get in like these like 297 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: army vans and then they get there and they get 298 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: worshed out of the van. A bunch of guys point 299 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: guns at them and go, you're gonna work for free 300 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: or we're gonna or like or we're gonna kill you. 301 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: So this is really bad. And this is this is 302 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: how a lot of like through the eighties and kind 303 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: of early nineties, this is how a lot of sugar 304 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: production worked in the Dominican Republic. And you know, it's 305 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: it's very notable here that Dominican Republic produces a lot 306 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: of sugar, and it produces a lot of sugar that 307 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: specifically the US uses. Now, this is like state run 308 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: slavery right on, sort of like state run plantations. So 309 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: then we had neoliberalism and so the state run plantations 310 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: get privatized. However, come they still run on slave labor. 311 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: So there's a very good Mother Jones report about this. 312 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read some of it here. Kakata is one 313 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,959 Speaker 1: of about one hundred, according to a local missionaries estimate, 314 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: isolated camp scattered around Central roman. Central Romana is a 315 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: giant sugar plantation. Central Romana's one hundred and sixty thousand 316 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: acres of sugar cane attract almost as big as New 317 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: York City. Most of the workers and their families live 318 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: in these battaiyas, rising in the morning to work the 319 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: cane and the punishing heats, clearing weeds, slashing and spraying 320 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 1: the stalks. Nearly all are men of Haitian descent. Some 321 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: were traffic back in the day of the journalist is 322 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: doing this was the guy who basically uncovered a bunch 323 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: of the original armies like the military slavery program in 324 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: the nineties, and so he went back like a couple 325 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: of years ago. So he's talking himself of Some of 326 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: the people were traffic back touring the military slavery program. 327 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: Others were born and lived stateless, and others came from 328 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: hating Moore recently paying smugglers to sneak them across the 329 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: border for years, the government has resisted providing legal status 330 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: to people of Haitian heritage in the country, even though 331 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: born there and estimated two hundred thousand people who for 332 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: generations have been to mean by race and class are stateless. 333 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: For the men in the camps, Sentra Romana is the state. 334 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: Their villages are patrolled by armed company police empowered to evict. 335 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: Centraro Romana owns the land or the Haitians work the 336 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: railcars where they wigh and load the can and stocks, 337 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: and the dwellings where they sleep. They are miles from 338 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: the nearest Dominican town not controlled by the company. So 339 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: things going great here and the conditions you know, okay, 340 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: so the sort of the capitalist reforms and ioliberalism has 341 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: brought to this system are the number of child slaves 342 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: has decreased dramatically, because that was a big thing when 343 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: the first reporting, when everyone was like, holy shit, there's 344 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: a bunch of child slaves. This is a terrible Yeah, 345 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: so we have less child slaves, right, and you know, 346 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: so instead of the child slaves, right, it's now mostly adults. 347 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: But the conditions here are still effectively slavery. Even even 348 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: after this sort of child slavery stuff like is driven under. 349 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: On a good day, these workers make three dollars a 350 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: day and they are effectively and sometimes literally unable to leave. Now, 351 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: there are a lot of reasons for this. One of 352 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: the big ones is that most of the workers there 353 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: are most like basically all like you might find a 354 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: worker somewhere who isn't stuck in this, but they're caught 355 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: in these debt traps by Central Romana, who and these 356 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: are like classic company but they're not. They're worse than like, 357 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: you know, the classic American company town because at least 358 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: an American company town, you can go to another town 359 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: that is not controlled by the company, whereas these people 360 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: like cannot, and so they're caught in these debt traps 361 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 1: by Central Romana, which is the company that owns these plantations. 362 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: And because they're so in debt, they're constantly forced to 363 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: work for the company in order to pay off their debt. 364 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: But you know, they never actually make enough money to 365 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 1: pay the debt off, and so they have to take 366 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: on more debt to survive until you know, and largely 367 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: what happens is these people work there in debt until 368 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: they die. This is classic debt Pia nine where it 369 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: sort of debt transforms people into the effective property of 370 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: the debt holder, who exacerbate the debt by denying them 371 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: the ability to live without taking on more debt. A 372 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: very common way this happens is with medical debt, which 373 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: is something you know, I think we're familiar with to 374 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: some extent here, but is egregiously worse. And the other 375 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: thing that I was realizing about this is that this 376 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: is actually really eerily similar to the way that Cortez 377 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: and the Conquistadores and slaved indigenous people during the genocide. 378 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: They would do the same thing of like, well, okay, 379 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: now you're in debt to me, and because you can't 380 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: pay the debt, you have five hundred percent interest per week, 381 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: and so you know, that just accumulates, and now you 382 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: work for me for the rest of your lives. And 383 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: this is you know, this, this is one of the 384 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,479 Speaker 1: one of the sort of ways in which this the 385 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: long shadow of Spanish imperialism like looms over the Dominican Republic, 386 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: even in what has really been about two hundred years 387 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: of the age of the American Empire. You know, and 388 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: as you know, obviously like as much of an effect 389 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: as the Spanish empire has had here and oh god, 390 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: it's not good today. It is the American empire that 391 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: lines the pockets of the slavers of the Dominican Republic. 392 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: So such a Romana is owned by this this family 393 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: called the Funjewel family, who are these Cuban expats who 394 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: run this like enormous resort in shit where they live 395 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: in Florida and are handed. This is really fun. One 396 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million dollars for the American state every 397 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: year in the form of price supports for sugar. So like, 398 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: you're an American, right, Like obviously your tax money very 399 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: obviously goes to support slavery because we have prisons, and 400 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: so your taxes are paying to enslaved people, but your 401 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 1: taxes are also paying for slavery and other countries. It's incredible, 402 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: really really great stuff from the American political system here. 403 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: And you know, and the way this has been maintained 404 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: is through like two I think in the last twenty years. 405 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: Mother Jones reported they've they've spent the sugar lobbyist spent 406 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: two hundred and twenty million dollars on campaign contributions and lobbying, 407 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: and it works really well. They've been able to influence 408 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: the system for a very very long time. The other 409 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 1: funny thing about the Fundtural family is that they've created 410 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: the perfect political trap, which is so one of one 411 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: of the brothers is like a Trump guy and the 412 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: other person is a Hillary supporter, and they're both like 413 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: incredibly a mesh in both of the circles. So it's great. 414 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: Things are going very good. So after so the Mother 415 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: Jones investigation was like in the last I think it 416 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: was like last year the year before, and when the 417 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: Mother Jones investigation about the fact that like all of 418 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: this shit was still happening came out, uh, there was 419 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: a there was a giant uproar about it. And a 420 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: couple of things happened. One is that so the village 421 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 1: of the journalists had visited, uh CenTra Romana, Like they 422 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: didn't even bulldoze the villages. They blew everyone's houses down 423 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: with like sledgehammers and forcibly move them to like other 424 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: villages and separated people's families. So that's that's great. And 425 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: then so in late twenty twenty two, under under pressure 426 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: from this reporting, the US government like banned imports from 427 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: that specific company. And okay, it's unclear what is going 428 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: to happen with it, if you know, if if they're 429 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: gonna get unbanned eventually, uh, if it's gonna stick, if 430 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: they're just gonna like, I don't know, like transfer the 431 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: assets to another company or something and use that instead. 432 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: As so, as of right now, this specific set of 433 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: plantations is not able to export sugar to the US. 434 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: So this is this is as much of a victory 435 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: over slavery as we're going to get in this episode. 436 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: And this victory is that it's only gonna get work. 437 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: This is this is the peak of anti slavery stuff 438 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: we're gonna see here. Yeah, so enjoy it while you can. 439 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: And do you know what else you should enjoy? 440 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 2: Oh these products and services that support this podcast. That's good. Yes, 441 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 2: this is this is the real peak of the episode, folks. 442 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: All right, I am rejuvenated by the advertising industrial complex. 443 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: I feel ready to hear other tales of great progress. 444 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: Woo Okay, So now we're now we're going to turn 445 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: to the type of slavery that everyone, I think expected 446 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: this episode to mostly be about, which is the fact 447 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: that cocoa bean production is also largely produced by slave labor. 448 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: So Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna read a bit from 449 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: a report by the Food Empowerment Projects, which has done 450 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: some very good work on most but like specifically slavery 451 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: in West Africa. They're also one of the only media 452 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: people I've ever seen talk about the fact that a 453 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: lot of this stuff, it's not exactly the same, but 454 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: a lot of the sort of slavery stuff also seems 455 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: to be happening on plantations in Brazil, but there's effectively 456 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: no coverage of it that's not in Portuguese. I don't know. 457 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: So like, eventually, one day, I guess, like the fact 458 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 1: that other places other than West Africa have slavery will 459 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:53,479 Speaker 1: hit the anglophone media class or whatever. But until then, 460 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to read this section. In West Africa, coco 461 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: is a commodity crop grown primarily for x Coco is 462 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: the Ivory Coast primary export. It makes up about half 463 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 1: the country's agricultural export and volume. Most coco farmers earn 464 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: less than one dollar a day and income below the 465 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: extreme poverty line. As a result, they often resort to 466 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: the use of child labor to keep their prices competitive. 467 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: In many cases, yeah, yeah, this is one of the 468 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: things that happens when you're reading about child slavery stuff 469 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: is even people who like are trying to you know, 470 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: draw attention to how bad this is. You get stuff 471 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: like that that's like Jesus Christ. Yeah, so you know 472 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: they're making sub one dollar a day, they're using child labor. 473 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: In many cases, this includes what the International Labor Organization 474 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: calls quote the worst form of child labor. These are 475 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: defined as practices quote likely to harm the health, safety, 476 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 1: or morals of children. Approximately two point one million children 477 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: in Ivory Coast and Ghana work on cocoa farms, most 478 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: of whom are likely exposed to the worst form of 479 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: child labor. Which is also really good that like we've we've, we've, 480 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 1: capitalism has finally reached the you know, the apex of 481 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: its its control of the commanding heights of the world economy, 482 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: which means that we're talking about we're trying to make 483 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: tear lists of how bad child labor is. 484 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean a whole bunch of child labor 485 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: laws just got like rolled back across many states here. Yeah, 486 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 2: it's a real great country. So it's very exciting. The 487 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 2: children are for the mind. 488 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it's it's great, you know. So, so 489 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: obviously a lot of the child slavery on cocoa farms 490 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: are from sort of like larger I mean, I guess 491 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: they are corporate, but from sort of like larger plantations, 492 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: but also less. You think that it's better on family farms, 493 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 1: No family farms, I mean, I guess it is technically 494 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: better than like being kidnapped and enslaved, is merely doing 495 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: child labor on your family, like. 496 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 2: Just being born into these pretty pretty uh not great 497 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: labor practices that you really have no say it or 498 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 2: any agency whatsoever. 499 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And like you know, this is one of 500 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: these things where like the economic conditions are so bad 501 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: that people are people are facing impossible choices, and I 502 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: think we can say that they make the wrong choice, 503 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: which is a lot of Okay, So, like there are 504 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: there were sort of different ways that children get trafficked 505 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: into slavery work. A lot of them are sold by 506 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: their own families who do not have enough resources to 507 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: take care of them, and are like, okay, we'll basically 508 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: sell these people so they can go do this job. 509 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: And these families don't know that, like their child is 510 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: about to be enslaved, right, they're just like, Okay, well 511 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: they're going to go off and do work. But the 512 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: other way that this happens is that kids from like 513 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: villages in other countries. But there's a lot of focus 514 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: on Mali as one of the places this happens for him. 515 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, so there's a lot of these effects what 516 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: are effectively raids into into Molly from the Ivory Coast 517 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: to like steal children. And it's also happens to Bikina Fosso, 518 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: you know, and this gets to the point where, you know, 519 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read a quote from of these from from 520 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: this report again. In one village of Bikina Fosso, almost 521 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: every mother in the village has had a child trafficked 522 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: onto cocaine farms. Traffickers will then sell children to cocaine farmers. 523 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: So this is like the worst paranoid fantasies of every 524 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: American right winger, except it's you know, this is just 525 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: how chocolate is made. 526 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is you know, all of all of the 527 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 2: Sound of Freedom guys, with all of you know, the 528 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 2: whole uproar around that movie earlier this year, versus all 529 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: of them, yeah, enjoying their little Eminem said, KitKat said, Hey, 530 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 2: I like the occasion kid cats too. This is this 531 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 2: is a massive profle. 532 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: I I don't know, I really love chocolate. I have 533 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: not eaten any chocolate since I started researching this, and 534 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: I like and it's and it's but it sucks because 535 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: it's like you can't you can't. And we're gonna get 536 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: into board of this in a second, but like you 537 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: can't like ethically consume your way out of this, right, 538 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: like because the conditions. 539 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 2: But free trade cocoa exists. 540 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: Oh boy, Yeah, we're gonna get into that. But yeah, 541 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: like there's there's no there's no actual systemic like there's 542 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: no way that you can, like you can't change this 543 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: stuff with your individual consumption habits. And you know that's 544 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: something that's just really fucking bleak about this because these 545 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: conditions are, I mean, as bad as you can possibly imagine. 546 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: But the Food and Powerment Project describes like children as 547 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: young as five are forced to work up to fourteen 548 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: hours a day, like chopping down cocoa pods and then 549 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: chopping them open with machetes. And sometimes these people get 550 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes these kids are using chainsaws to like clear wood, 551 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: they clear down like forests. Yeah, and you know, okay, 552 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: so this goes exactly how you expected to go, which 553 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: is a bunch of these kids just have a bunch 554 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: of fucking scars from when they've been slashed by machetes 555 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: because again you're handing the machetes to children, some of 556 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: whom are as young as five. And then they have 557 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: to carry one hundred pound bags of cocoa beans through 558 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: the jungle. And this is the thing that's also happening 559 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: in the Tamaican Republic, and this happens a lot in 560 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: a lot of places, is that they just get you know, 561 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: when when companies want to spray like they're fars with pesticides, right, 562 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: they don't even bother even like clearing people out, which 563 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: might you know, help like a tiny bit to make 564 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: them not like die from fucking poison. But no, these 565 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: fucking dipshits just like spray them with toxic chemicals as 566 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: they just like spray them with pesticides like a lot 567 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: of whom are christinogiens a lot of And this is 568 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: happening in the Dominican the surcane fields in the Dominican 569 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: Republic too, and a lot of those people just fucking 570 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: died because you know, they were stayed with these chemicals. 571 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: There was a really terrible story of a guy who 572 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: was trying to sue Central Romana and just fucking died 573 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: from the like he wasn't able to get a pay 574 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: off for a lawsuit because he died in twenty twenty 575 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: before the lawsuit could like finish. So here's another great 576 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: quote from the Food Empowerment Project. The farm owners using 577 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: child labor usually provide the children with the cheapest food available, 578 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: such as corn paste or the cassava and bananas that 579 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: grow in the surrounding forest. In some cases, the children 580 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: sleep on wooden planks and small windless buildings without access 581 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: to clean water, sanitary bathrooms. And you know, another key 582 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: part of this, right is like, okay, so the conditions 583 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: are obviously unbearably bad, but you know, a key part 584 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: of this, like any system of slavery, is the physical 585 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: violence against the enslaved people who are repeatedly and often 586 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: beaten and abused and tortured in ways that are very 587 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: reminiscent of sort of like older epik of slavery if 588 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: they try to escape. Now, this is the companies care 589 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: about this to the extent that is bad. Pr Yes, 590 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,479 Speaker 1: and the charcot companies repeated, like the charcoal companies. Okay, 591 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: they they signed a thing in the year two thousand 592 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: where they said we're going to eliminate child's the worst 593 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: forms of child slavery by two thousand and five. 594 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, like this is this has been a known issue 595 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 2: for like over two decades. 596 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: Now, Garrison, Yes, what year is it right now? 597 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 2: The year of our Lord to us in twenty three. 598 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, they have been they have been promising to end 599 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: child slavery in the Originally they're supposed to be end 600 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: child flavery and then and then they scaled it down 601 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: to the worst forms the worst. But they have been 602 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: promising you could do this for longer than you have 603 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: been alive, yes, correct, which is terrifying. 604 00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 2: Yes, yes. 605 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: And and as we'll get into later, right, the number 606 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: of child slaves is higher than it was when they 607 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: started doing these child slave reduction efforts, so quote unquote 608 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: reduction efforts which are just sort of pr bullshit. So 609 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: industry lobbying groups are also very very powerful, and this 610 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: is part of how this stuff persists. So the University 611 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 1: of Chicago has a center called Norak, which is like 612 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: a public Research Center. I don't know. I went to 613 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 1: that fucking school. I don't trust any of these motherfuckers 614 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: and ne or should you, because it turns out there 615 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: was so okay. So they released this report on how 616 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 1: bad child slavery is, right, but there was a leak 617 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: of the original version of the report that was supposed 618 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: to come out, and the original version of the report 619 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: has the number of child slaves at like two point 620 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: two million. Now, when the report actually comes out with 621 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: no justification whatsoever and using a bunch of numbers for 622 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 1: child slavery that are from before COVID nineteen, the Noak 623 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: report was like, ah, there's only like one point six 624 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: million child slaves. So six hundred thousand child slaves just 625 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,439 Speaker 1: sort of vanished in an editorial process after they got 626 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: they came under fire from uh, the they came under 627 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: fire from the chocolate lobby. 628 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, let's uh, let's route that down. Makes it 629 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 2: makes it easier to palace. 630 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: And the other thing that it hides is that there's 631 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: been a ten to fifteen percent increase in the number 632 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: of child slaves working in like in the coat in 633 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,360 Speaker 1: Cocoa since COVID started. Because COVID has been a giant 634 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: sort of you know, the economic damage that COVID caused 635 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: forced a bunch of people into into, you know, increasingly 636 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: desperate things. And you know, Okay, so we tease this 637 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: a little bit, and you might be thinking, well, I 638 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: can eat fair trade chocolate, right, I can pay ten 639 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: dollars for a chocolate bars as a fair trade on it, 640 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: and it will and that will make sure that I'm 641 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: only eating chocolate produced by free labor. Nope, the certifications 642 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: for the chocolate are fucking bullshit. You're still eating slave chocolate. 643 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: The follow was an excerpt from a study conducted by 644 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: the Corporate Accountability Lab on the failure of initiatives in 645 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: the chocolate industry like certifications quote. In order to understand 646 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: the gap between consumer perception and farmer impact better, we 647 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: brought certified chocolate bars to villages where some or all 648 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: of the farmers were certified. We held up the bar 649 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: with the label and explained to the farmers what consumers 650 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: expected out of the label, primarily that farmers were paired 651 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 1: a fair price, earned a decent living, and certain practices 652 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: like child labor and deforestation were not present. We also 653 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: explained the difference in retail price between fair trade and 654 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: uncertified chocolate. The overwhelming response from farmers to this information 655 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: was shock and outrage. One farmer pulled out his worn 656 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,439 Speaker 1: shirt in front of him and asked if it looked 657 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: like he earned a decent living. A woman in one 658 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,359 Speaker 1: village said, you can hardly afford to send to your 659 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: children to school, so how could anyone think she earned 660 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: a fair price? Are farmer consultations revealed virtually imperceptible differences 661 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: between certified and uncertified farms in terms of living incomes, poverty, education, 662 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:20,439 Speaker 1: access to healthcare, farmer bargaining power, or access to information. So, yeah, 663 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: all the people who are telling you they're doing some 664 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: fair trade shit, they're keeping your money and the places 665 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 1: they're getting it from are as fucked as her. She's yeah, 666 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: so this is bad. Now. You might also think, Okay, 667 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: we can get out of this by buying from coco cooperatives. 668 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: Except except, and this is a wonderful thing that capitalism 669 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: is brought on the world. Most coco collectives aren't actually 670 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: like workers collect like aren't actually co ops. 671 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,399 Speaker 2: They're just all people's republic of chocolate farmers. I'm sure 672 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,879 Speaker 2: they're all a little red book. 673 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: This is something actually, this is something that China actually pioneered, 674 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: because there's there's a bunch of firms in China that 675 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: are also technical. I talked about this in my episode 676 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 1: of Bachelor's episode a long time ago about this milk 677 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: company that poisoned three hundred thousand babies, and that company 678 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: was technically a co op, but like it was a 679 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: co op in the sense that there was a small 680 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: group of workers who were basically managers who owned shares, 681 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 1: and then they just hired every source everything out to 682 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,279 Speaker 1: independent contractors, so it functioned like a normal company. Yeah, 683 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: and this is the thing. A lot this the cocoa 684 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: trade stuff is actually worse because most of these things 685 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: that are called co ops aren't even co ops at all. 686 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: They're just set up by cocoa growers as like fake 687 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: co ops. And there they are like a very very 688 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: small number of of these coco farms that are actually 689 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 1: workers cooperatives, but there's no way to tell which one 690 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: is which unless you spend a bunch of time like 691 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: actually going and tracking the cooperatives down. So there's no 692 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: sort of like ethically way out of this, right, You're 693 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 1: just kind of you're you know, like you can't. You 694 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: can't eat your way out of this problem. And of 695 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: course everything across the board, all the these conditions have 696 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 1: gotten worse since the pandemic. So you know it's it's 697 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 1: not only is capitalism not making things better every like, 698 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: things are in fact getting worse. Now, all right, I 699 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 1: promised you the lawsuits. We're gonna talk a bit about 700 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: the lawsuits. So there were actually two big lawsuits. There 701 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: were eight people from Mali who were enslaved by cocoa 702 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: plantations after being traffic from Mali sued Nestley, Cargill, Berry, Caliba, 703 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, some French shit mars Alam, Hershey's and 704 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: Modeleas to try to get conversations from the companies by 705 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,479 Speaker 1: virtue of the fact that the companies sold products made 706 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,240 Speaker 1: by their child slave labor. 707 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 708 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,760 Speaker 1: Now there's also a separate lawsuit against slightly different companies, 709 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: so a lot of the same company is slightly different 710 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: that's using a different set of legal arguments. Both of 711 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: the lawsuits have been thrown out, and I want to 712 00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: take a second to look at the reasoning here, both 713 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: of which is are just amazing. So I think the 714 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: most famous one is the Supreme courts eight to one 715 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: decision that said, well, so, like, all this stuff happens, 716 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 1: but it happened outside the US, so you can't sue 717 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: companies for it here, which is an amazing piece of logic, 718 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: which is just like, oh yeah, no, actually, like corporations, 719 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: like American corporations could just go everywhere else and do crimes. 720 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 1: And this is and the American legal system is specifically 721 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: written in such a way that like, if an American 722 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:31,959 Speaker 1: corporation enslaves you in like the Ivory Coast, there's nothing 723 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: you can do about it in the US. And then 724 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,280 Speaker 1: a judgment do you see throughout the other case because 725 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: you know, their argument was, well, you can't prove that 726 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: the companies knew you were being enslaved on those farms. 727 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: There's no quote traceable connection between the people who enslaved 728 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: you in the company, so there's nothing we can do. 729 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: And the reason both these arguments work is the reason 730 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: for the structure of the chocolate market, right, the reason 731 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: cocoa plantations in the Ivory Coast and all so Brazil 732 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:03,839 Speaker 1: can get away with this, you know, well, the reason 733 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: that those plantations are in the Ivory Coast or Brazil 734 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: or other places The reason they're happening there and not 735 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: in the US is because these are places where you 736 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 1: can get away with that level of exploitation in corporate 737 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: violence that you know in the US would be a 738 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 1: lot more difficult, and this shields them from legal liability. Furthermore, 739 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,399 Speaker 1: instead of just you know, jumping, instead of just running 740 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 1: the cocoa plantations themselves, which these companies could easily do, right, 741 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: this is a very very large trade. They could just 742 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: sort of like they could invertially vertically and not even 743 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: vertical integrate, they could just actually make chocolate, like they 744 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: could just run the process, and they they very specifically 745 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: choose not to do it. And the reason they choose 746 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: not to do it, this isn't one hundred billion dollar industry, right, 747 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: but instead they what they choose to do is to 748 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: just buy cocoa from the chocolate market where all these 749 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 1: sort of nebulous producers sell, which allows the chocolate companies 750 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: to go, oh, well, these people don't work for us. 751 00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: We just buy chocolate from the market. How are we 752 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 1: supposed to know which these plantations use slave labor? 753 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 2: So it puts like a one degree of separation. 754 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's actually two degrees it's an additional degree 755 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: of separation from the way something like Walmart works. Right, 756 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: where Walmart has a bunch of independent contractors, this isn't 757 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 1: even contractors. They're just buying finished products from things they're 758 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: like they're completely unaffiliated with. And this gives them, like, 759 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: it gives them like two degrees of legal separation, because 760 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: it's not just that their contractors are doing something that 761 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 1: they didn't know about, it's that they're just buying it, right, 762 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: And this fucking sucks. And you know, since laws exist 763 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: to protect the ruling class, judges and courts can just 764 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: wave their hands and go, well, these companies definitely enslaved you, 765 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: but we have no choice but to let them off 766 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: completely scot free. So sorry about that. And I want 767 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: to end today with something that has been running through 768 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: my mind every since I fucking started researching this, which 769 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 1: is that the worst onisie must pay for their times. 770 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: The state has failed, the court has failed, the NGOs 771 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,280 Speaker 1: have failed, and if anything is ever going to fucking 772 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,879 Speaker 1: happen that forces these companies to be in any way, 773 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: there there is to be like a single iota of 774 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: justice for the fact that all of these companies have 775 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,760 Speaker 1: been fucking gorging themselves on the profits of slave labor. 776 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: At all, we are going to do it or no 777 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 1: one is, So congratulations you. The American worker is unfortunately 778 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: incumbent on you to deal with these fucking corporations that 779 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,760 Speaker 1: have been destroying the entire world. So yeah, happy spooky 780 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: week everyone. 781 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 2: Yes, this is very scary. Yeah, well thank you for 782 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:51,360 Speaker 2: that lovely, uh depressing presentation. Uh via. I mean, I 783 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 2: guess is there is there is there a sort of 784 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,839 Speaker 2: takeaway besides, there's no ethical conception to under capitalism. 785 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: I mean, like, I mean, capitalism will never abolish slavery, 786 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 1: and I don't think one. 787 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 2: I know, there is one US state where they grow chocolate, 788 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 2: which is Hawaii, which has its own problems of colonization. 789 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 2: So even if you try to buy from a place 790 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:18,720 Speaker 2: that is you know, arguably has less chocolate slavery, it's 791 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,720 Speaker 2: generally better produced, it still is you're still implicating yourself 792 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:28,799 Speaker 2: in all of the problems relating to like the independence 793 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 2: of that island and the US's colonization. So it's it's 794 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 2: it's we're really just really just kind of trapped on 795 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 2: all sides. Here is what it feels like. I mean, 796 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 2: this is this Halloween chocolate problem. 797 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and I think I think the way 798 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,560 Speaker 1: to think about this, right is that this this is 799 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: an actual systemic issue, right, This is a systemic thing 800 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: capitalism has been doing for about four hundred years, like CeNSE, 801 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: its entire existence, and if you want to, if you 802 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,240 Speaker 1: want to end it, we have to. You have to. Actually, 803 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 1: it's not it's not even enough to destroy these companies, 804 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: right because even if you brought down every single one 805 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: of these chocole companies, right, there would just be another 806 00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,320 Speaker 1: round of chocolate companies. It will be doing exactly the 807 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: same ship. So you have to you have to destroy 808 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,840 Speaker 1: the system of property by which these things are allowed 809 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: to exist. And at that point maybe you can start 810 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,359 Speaker 1: on being able to eat food that isn't produced by 811 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: slave labor. 812 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 2: It turns out Willi Wogka was the villain the whole time. 813 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: You know. I was trying to think about the amount 814 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: of slave labor that we see from him versus the 815 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 1: amount of slave Wonka. It's a it's I think Wonka 816 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 1: is using more slave labor, but not by as much 817 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:43,839 Speaker 1: as it should be. 818 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know. It's it's it's hard 819 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 2: to say, I I think it's pretty clear that Walka's 820 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 2: use of slave labor is just an accurate representation of 821 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 2: the real life industry. 822 00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: Yes, so yeah, go go, go enjoy your weekend, and then. 823 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 2: You enjoy that new fucking twig Walka movie that looks 824 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:05,960 Speaker 2: I have to say dog shit. 825 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, bad herod. 826 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 2: Bad idea anyone's had since capitalism twin Kwonka. I'm sorry 827 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 2: it doesn't slap I here out of ten anyway, Well, uh, 828 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,799 Speaker 2: tune in in the next few days for two more 829 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 2: Spooky Week episodes for you. We only got three this 830 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 2: week because there's a lot of other news happening, but yeah, 831 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 2: we at least have two other Spooky Week episodes that 832 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 2: I am about to finish working on, so stay tuned 833 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 2: for that. Good Bye. 834 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 835 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 836 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,400 Speaker 2: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 837 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,880 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 838 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 2: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 839 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 2: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. 840 00:46:58,840 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.